Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

I completely agree. Either fix it so that the clone upgrades automatically (I understand that it is an isk sink), or completely remove the feature (because on the other hand, why punish veteran pilots?). Skill loss is extremely harsh for such a trivial thing as to remember to upgrade the clone or not, which is easily forgotten in the heat of a battle or for a pilot that doesn't get podded that much. The mechanic makes absolutely no sense to me other than the occasional punishment of absentminded pilots. Which just feels.. wrong.

Please for the love of god just remove clone upgrade costs. I wrote an article about how bad they are. Ignore the insurance change part as I was just using it as an example of where to move the ISK sink to (bad example I know), but just focus on the rest.

CLONE UPGRADE BILLS: A PAINFUL THROWBACK

Did you read it?

Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.

Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.

You are comparing specific skills trained to one another. Yes, that means the same performance in the same exact ship setup and fitting.

However, the player with a higher skill point value has skills in other things. Perhaps they have Cybernetics lvl 5 and are using some very pricey implants to outpace you just enough. Did you calculate the extra SP for that? And, I will admit that having one extra skill trained to lvl 5 isn't really impacting clone costs.

But, the person who fast-tracked the skills to your specs and then stopped training that character to swap skill training for another character made a ChoiceGäó. Just like the player who made a different ChoiceGäó and decided he would also want to run a PRC and an Alliance on the same character. And also made a ChoiceGäó that they would want to erect and fully manage a POS on the same character. And also made the ChoiceGäó they would want to add to their combat skills through the Leadership aspect of the skill tree. Should I keep giving examples of ChoicesGäó ?

One player ChoseGäó to make a perfectly skilled interceptor pilot based on one race's ship and weapon sets and then move along to perform other tasks on different characters.
Another player ChoseGäó to skill their one character up for different aspects of the game.

So, you are telling me that these two players should not have different results from different ChoicesGäó?

Thank you.

No.

The point people have with clone costs is that the higher your SP goes, the less attractive small ships become. I'm now at the point where my clone is more expensive than that small ship plus fittings.

Like I said, cost doesn't bother me personally. But a mechanic that punishes one aspect of PvP, simply because of your longevity in the game, cannot be viewed as a good one.

Okay. then we agree.

I have many skillpoints. Yes, I find frigates to be awesome fun.

I also realize this before I choose my ship and undock to be engaged in ship-to-ship PVP.

Thank you.

No.

Whether you realise this or not, is not the point and irrelevant to the discussion. The point is higher SP does not equate to better performance and longevity shouldn't have the side effect, of making small ship PvP unattractive due to cost.

When the price of your clone, is more than buying and setting up four Interceptors there is something wrong with the balance in that mechanic. It's not helping drive PvP, but rather having the opposite affect.

CCP are aware of this and already agree. It's now simply a matter of time, when we'll see a change.

What is the point? You don't want to risk your high SP character in a ship made of paper and sticks? Yeah. We get it.

Also, I would suggest not speaking for other people or entities. Your speculation of what CCP agrees with is unimportant. Or, if they do agree, then why this thread?

Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.

Just think as well come summer I am one of the pilots in-line to gain something on the order of about 6 million SP literally overnight when all 4 battlecruisers/destroyers become racial skills as I have both skills at 5 and can fly all variants they cover currently.

How much do I improve in performance when this happens? Not at all, nothing changes except my clone cost. I will be exactly as good with those ships as I am now but I'm going to have to pay through the nose to keep those extra skillpoints I didn't ask for and don't even want. At this point I'm just begging them not to separate out HAC, HIC, Recons, AF, EAF, cov op and well you get the picture or my clone cost is going to triple instantly and goodbye any thoughts of ever fighting in null sec again at that point because my clone now costs more than my fleet. Any skillpoints used in any sort of industrial application likewise adds no combat benefit, so clone cost and ship performance is not really a risk vs. reward scenario at all. My indy alt has 20 million SP and couldn't fly a T1 frigate to save her life. Clone costs are an ISK sink plain and simple.

Well as much as I'd like to agree, no actually.

Interceptor Pilot with a total of 20 million SP, with great skills for flying a Crusader. Using around 13 million SP, for that ship. Clone grade Nu which keeps 25,600,000 SP. Cost 1,980,000.

Older interceptor pilot, with the exact same skill set to fly the Crusader, but with 156 million SP.
Clone Grade Phi which keeps 203,000,000 SP. Cost 65 million.

Now I personally am not bothered by this cost. But higher SP, does not mean better performance. So no, not perfectly balanced.
I can see why this would preclude the use of smaller ships with higher SP.

The balance comes from the time it takes each character to earn the ISK to replace. The 200mil SP char has more options for earning ISK than the 20mil SP char. And he has the option of funding a PvP alt with the ISK generated from his main.

I'm really surprised that your behind this Mag, I didn't think you were of the "make Eve easier" persuasion.

there are ships that I cant even think about flying because my pod is going to cost 5 times more than the ship when I die

terrible outdated mechanic that needs changed

also my condols to all those dictor pilots out there who cry themselves to sleep because of CCP's inaction

Being frightened of that loss is what makes Eve combat exciting. Its not the clone to ship ISK ratio that prevents you from flying certain ships, it is rather your own assessment of risk vs. reward.

If you want to lower the risk there are tools at your disposal to do that, but don't ask for the table minimum wager to be changed because its too steep for you. That is so disrespectful to the people there because the minimum bet is high.

The balance comes from the time it takes each character to earn the ISK to replace. The 200mil SP char has more options for earning ISK than the 20mil SP char. And he has the option of funding a PvP alt with the ISK generated from his main.

I'm really surprised that your behind this Mag, I didn't think you were of the "make Eve easier" persuasion.

Being frightened of that loss is what makes Eve combat exciting. Its not the clone to ship ISK ratio that prevents you from flying certain ships, it is rather your own assessment of risk vs. reward.

If you want to lower the risk there are tools at your disposal to do that, but don't ask for the table minimum wager to be changed because its too steep for you. That is so disrespectful to the people there because the minimum bet is high.

Yes, a highly skilled character might have more optional ways of earning ISK, but with that arguement, you're saying that a highly skilled character should go back to incursioning or any other high income profession if that character is out of money? Sure I see that as a generally valid argument, but the thing is that a 20m SP character could earn just as much as a 200m SP character. In that case, the 20m SP character could do way more PvP than the 200m one. This is a gameplay limiting problem, as I see it. It's a bit like telling the 200m character to "do industry or go to high sec, you're too pricey to be PvP'ing."

That propably sounded nice and dandy in your own head, but it doesn't really make much sense, if you actually think about it. ....... All that actually happened is the casino suddenly stopped restricting the gameplay choices of their oldest customers.

pay through the nose

Clone costs are an ISK sink plain and simple.

We want things brought in line, pref also reduced compared todays pricing model because todays model is a penalty against experienced players. This is a move towards small ship combat and away from the capital fights of today.

.

Risk vs. Reward

Use high SP character with high(er) clone cost = Risk.
Performing better in combat due to high(er) SP character = Reward.

Perfectly balanced.

Thank you.

Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

if i use my main to go pvp in frig, and loose a pod i'll have to pay for a clone able to hold 100M + sp
my friend do the same, and need to only pay for a 30+M sp
here is the trick, for the very same ship, with the same fit, we have exactly the sames skills, where is my advantage? => none
the difference in SP is because i can fly more ships than he does, but at that moment, it is irrelevant (gallente carrier is very usefull when you fly a assault ship right?)

We want things brought in line, pref also reduced compared todays pricing model because todays model is a penalty against experienced players. This is a move towards small ship combat and away from the capital fights of today.

The risk involved in combat should be Ships, Equipment, Implants, Boosters. This grants a reward to the pilot.
The risk involved in Skillpoints is the time invested in the game. This grants a reward to the pilot.

Ok here is the deal, I'll break it down so any f*****g idiot can understand it.

not completely true.

if i ChooseGäó to use my main to go pvp in frig, and loose a pod i'll have to pay for a clone able to hold 100M + sp

I fixed it for you.

Thank you.

not completely true.

if i use my main to go pvp in frig, and loose a pod i'll have to pay for a clone able to hold 100M + sp

my friend do the same, and need to only pay for a 30+M sp

here is the trick, for the very same ship, with the same fit, we have exactly the sames skills, where is my advantage? => none

the difference in SP is because i can fly more ships than he does, but at that moment, it is irrelevant (gallente carrier is very usefull when you fly a assault ship right?)

the only thing the actual clone cost does, is prevent high SP char from pvping in small ships, nothing else.

i will not go pvp in small frig if i have to pay more for refunding my clone than the cost of ship + fitting

So you're basically saying it's a dumb choice for him to use a frig? Please give me one reason why that being a dumb thing to do is good for gameplay.

...

Could you reduce de costs , like you did 3 years ago, because i like to fly small ships.

Well clones are being looked at. CCP simply do not like their current form and cost. So we'll simply have to wait and see what we get.

So you're basically saying it's a dumb choice for him to use a frig?

You saw me mining in a Retreiver when?
No you didnt, so shut the bull.

What people in the corp/alliance is doing is their business, I do not dictate their operations.
And I am sure the people mining are fully capable of filling their own wallets without touching mine.

The isk sink has to come from somewhere. If they remove insurance isk faucet, removing clone cost may work. Otherwise, no.

Alternately, give an option for corps to automatically pay member cloning cost.

Shooting at can flippers with a FF retriever is dumb, lets do away with can flipping.

Shooting at someone in empire space without a flag is dumb, lets make a little setting that wont allow players to do that accidentally anymore.

Buying overpriced items 2 systems away to fill an extremely overpriced buy order that doesn't actually exist is dumb, lets do away with that possibility.

Building ships with self mined materials and then cutting your own throat on the mineral prices is dumb, maybe we should have a warning for that.

Going into W-space and not bookmarking the exit is dumb, lets get rid of that.

undocking in a fat hauler without an instawarp undock or knowing if the station is a kickout is dumb, hmmm warning maybe.

moving PLEX and BPO's via autopilot is dumb, there must be some way that we can allow people to do that and still have the game be exciting.

Skilling up a PvP character to a level that is uncomforatable to pay for is dumb, hmmm, lets fix that.

The game of Eve is based on allowing players to capitalize on the mistakes or miscalculations of the enemy. Every time the option to make a mistake is mitigated or taken away the game losses potential. The potential for people to risk more than they intended, to do "dumb" things, is what keeps the game interesting.

i will not fair fight, not because i risk loosing the ship, i don't care, but JUST because of the pod.
i lowsec, i do it, cause the chances to loose the pod are very very thin, but in null i'll just use an OP ship vs his, and ensure that, the fight will not be fair, and he WILL gate raped and sent back using pod-express.

if we see so much blob, OP kills etc..., i think that the clone price is part of the reason (far from the first, yes, but still)
clone price is deterrent to pvp for high sp char

And, beside... How much is a clone for 200M sp? 65 milons ISK? let's face it: 65M isk are pennies for a veteran character.

Are pennies also for 20M sp explorer char, can do it in less than one hour.

Can be a problem only for high SP character bought by players not really used to the game.

Getting podded needs to hurt, any nerfing on this front is an easy button in disguise. If you you don't like bubbles go to lowsec to PvP.

It seems that your idea of pennies and mine are VERY different.

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????

And I've played my toons since I created them, I have not bought them. High SP and Hence High ISK cost for clones is what is killing small ship gang PvP.(would love to go on that Frigate roam through Null/LS with the boys, however then I will have to grind ISK for a month to just to re-coop the loss/s)

As for the idiots saying just create a low SP alt for PvP, get with it, the entire reason this is required in the first place is because of the idiotically high Clone Costs.

Fix the Clones costs and then we can all just PvP in whatever ship we want on our MAINS.

So you are not good at making ISK in game and PvP is too expensive for you. And CCP should make combat and loss more affordable. Hell, lets just make ships free to, and implants. People want to PvP in a dangerous environment where loss matters but they don't want to risk anything to do it. Those two things are not compatible.

In order for Eve combat to be meaningful it must have risk. If you want to go on a few roams and not grind ISK for a month there is an answer, just buy/sell a PLEX and use that ISK only for clones. At 30 million per clone 20$ US will get you 16 clones. That's a little bit more than the micro transactions for DUST players, and I think a fair trade for several nights of stress free combat if that is what your after.

Stop reading here, you should get out of high sec Elite pvp and go more often pvp in low sec to learn bbles in low sec DON'T EXIST, you have no clue about real clone costs for players loosing pods frequently in null sec fights but dare to give lessons about harshness of Eve from your high sec safety bubble.

Give us a break.

Sure, take away one of the biggest ISK sinks from the game, not like that would make inflation worse or **** up the economy completely.

I already pay for the PvP losses through the loss of the Ships/Modules/Implants and what I fly should be the deciding factor of the costs, not how long that I've played the game. Which is basically what clone costs are currently. Motto of PvP, never fly what you can't afford to loose, at the moment my clone is the problem, not the ships/modules/implants


So you think that I should cough up real world cash just to buy clones? you're basically promoting RMT. Not all of us have the liquid income in RL to spend on a game.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.

Sinks remove ISK from the game and help to even out "faucets" that put ISK into the game. When you buy something from an NPC vendor that ISK is removed from the game, right now clones are probably one of the biggest sinks. If you buy a ship and equipment from another player the ISK is still in game , its just that someone else has it. This leads to mudflation, which can be very problematic for in game economies.

Sinks remove ISK from the game and help to even out "faucets" that put ISK into the game. When you buy something from an NPC vendor that ISK is removed from the game, right now clones are probably one of the biggest sinks. If you buy a ship and equipment from another player the ISK is still in game , its just that someone else has it. This leads to mudflation, which can be very problematic for in game economies.

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????

As far as risk is concerned, I'm all for it. I choose the ship I risk, the fittings, the implants, even the ammo and whatever else there may be in the hold. The one thing that I have no choice over, is the clone cost. I simply would like to have more choices, in the clone department.

yes, and this is why I say reducing medical clone costs based on the ship skill used and similar concepts is a stealth way to increase the "consensual" component.

As far as risk is concerned, I'm all for it. I choose the ship I risk, the fittings, the implants, even the ammo and whatever else there may be in the hold. The one thing that I have no choice over, is the clone cost. I simply would like to have more choices, in the clone department.

If this means higher cost for certain ones, then so be it. As long as there are options for "cheap as chips" ones too.

So you are not good at making ISK in game and PvP is too expensive for you. And CCP should make combat and loss more affordable. Hell, lets just make ships free to, and implants. People want to PvP in a dangerous environment where loss matters but they don't want to risk anything to do it. Those two things are not compatible.

In order for Eve combat to be meaningful it must have risk. If you want to go on a few roams and not grind ISK for a month there is an answer, just buy/sell a PLEX and use that ISK only for clones. At 30 million per clone 20$ US will get you 16 clones. That's a little bit more than the micro transactions for DUST players, and I think a fair trade for several nights of stress free combat if that is what your after.

That's actually a great idea. Create different types of clones, they would all protect SP, but maybe a cheaper line that cannot incorporate implants or maybe clones that will only last a certain amount of time before they must be upgraded, or perhaps "escrow clones" that you have to put a big wager on, if someone pops one then they get the ISK.

I think those kind of options would really help to mitigate the clone cost without dampening risk across the board. There is still the factor of increasing the real power of high SP characters while leaving low SP characters further behind.

I'm about to hit the point where my clones are going to start costing me 30M. This would take me about 5 hours of solid game play to make, using 3 accounts to do it. Considering that I pretty much only play for about 1 or 2 hours a week, sometimes I have entire weekends that I play for, but mostly a casual player. So you're saying that a nearly a month of game play is pennies??????

That's actually a great idea. Create different types of clones, they would all protect SP, but maybe a cheaper line that cannot incorporate implants or maybe clones that will only last a certain amount of time before they must be upgraded, or perhaps "escrow clones" that you have to put a big wager on, if someone pops one then they get the ISK.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.

You are aware that increased amount of combat and death which means in the end, a bigger Isk sink then people staying away from PvP when they can.

Okay, just to clarify - are you assuming that clone costs will be lowered, but not eliminated? And if so, are you also assuming that a lower perceived cost will make people notably more likely to go PvP in weaker ships and in riskier places, leading to a net increase in ISK sunk by poddings?

If you answered "no" to either of those questions, you lack understanding of the concept of ISK sinks.

If you answered "yes" to both, I'll just go shut up for now.

Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

As I look at the issue of clone cost and talk to people around New Eden things become more clear. High clone prices are a limiting factor to high SP characters. If removed or mitigated these characters will become more powerful.

Many players in Eve enjoy the whole game; resource development, income creation, PvE and PvP. These different aspects of Eve compliment one another in that they amplify the sense of achievement and they allow different player types to effectively compete with one another. Long term strategies have as good a payoff as short term ones and there are many ways to put your opponent at a disadvantage.

I think much of the support for lowering clone costs comes from players really enjoy the pewpew side of Eve. And would like to have more resources available to commit to those activities. This population is significant, however Eve is not a game solely about pewpew.

Some of the support comes from players who are looking to have a major limitation removed from their characters so that they will be free to attack players who pursued a more diversified character development plan. I.E. the guy who put all his S.P. into one char is unhappy with his disadvantage vs someone who took the time to develop both a combat character and a general purpose character.

A third group that seems to be supporting this is involved in null sec sovereignty warfare; I think the Goons are on uneven footing with Test over an extended campaign just based on clone costs. The goon clones will be much more expensive than Tests. I would be surprised if this by itself could win that war, but it is a cost that must be accounted for.

And so the supporters of this plan all have something to gain in the long term conflict of ISK. This gain will give them advantage over their competitors, the players who have a more wholistic approach to Eve.

If players want to support the idea of reducing clone costs thatGÇÖs great, that is what the forums are for. But without considering the disadvantage that it will create for players on the other side of the coin it is nothing more than meta-gaming for self advantage.

Can we please know if this is getting looked into devs please?

They have said they will, but we know not when.

Okay, just to clarify - are you assuming that clone costs will be lowered, but not eliminated? And if so, are you also assuming that a lower perceived cost will make people notably more likely to go PvP in weaker ships and in riskier places, leading to a net increase in ISK sunk by poddings?

If you answered "no" to either of those questions, you lack understanding of the concept of ISK sinks.

If you answered "yes" to both, I'll just go shut up for now.

Still bitching about this, huh? Once again, your "employees" don't "work" for your money enough already?

Thank you.

I propose to replace clone grade skillpoint retention for implant slots. Highest grade have 10 slots. Default grade could have one or two i suppose.

Now thats just silly... hows the clone in any way physicaly different than the better one?

It's not physical difference, that worries me about that idea. It's the cost aspect for new players. Making new players pay more, would be a hypocritical move IMHO.

Well Zella Polaris proposed a skill that would allow you to reduce the cost of the clone. Would that be any good? New players could train it also making their clones even cheaper.

The gameplay added by clones upgrade is to add "cost" to the death penalities. What makes EVE harsh as we like is not simply the open PVP but the risks involving and the costs.

Reducing clones upgrades reduce the harshness.

If lowered for medical clones then should be balaanced properly by increased implants costs and jump clones costs.

Or how about letting us turn in our collection frozen corpses to the Medical Centers for credit? Kinda like a refund like on soda bottles.

:)

It could be, but then we have the must have skill factor to deal with.

The issue I see with this, is in regards to balance and choice. Balance in the price against small ships. Choice in the fact that I can decide to risk whichever ship, module and ammo I like, but have no choice with the clone.

But as a low sec dweller, pod loss is far and very few between. I think I've lost 1 pod in 4 years and that was because I couldn't be bothered to warp out. But I can see the issue this has for long term players in null, that want to head out in frig gangs now and again.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what CCP has to offer.

Well if it's a rank 1 or 2 skill does it then realy matter? And well imo it you realy don't even need to train it if you don't want to. Sure it makes things cheaper for you but then again if you loose 1 pod a year then you realy don't need it. So it's more like a choice that "this is something I will need and I will train it" or "meh I will train more gunho' skills and pay more" or something like that. The player is eventualy the one deciding does he want to train it. And again rank 1 or 2. plus you don't need to train everything to lvl5 always

As I look at the issue of clone cost and talk to people around New Eden things become more clear. High clone prices are a limiting factor to high SP characters. If removed or mitigated these characters will become more powerful.

In which a way "more powerful" will they become, please explain.

That's just a mumbling under nose. Repeating "more powerful" again and again without making any sense.
Please provide exact cases and numbers.

The upcoming skill changes will boost me well into the 20 million ISK clone grade. 20 mil per death for the sole reason of having a large-ish total of skillpoints? ......

What do I get from that 20 mil? There is only so much SP that affect any given ship, it is insulting that I have to pay for the whole damn thing because I died while using a small fraction of the lot. I get exactly nothing for my money except avoiding the prospect of losing the better part of a month of training time...

please........

You get to retain 100% of those skill points for your 20mil. You could buy cheaper clones and sacrifice a few SP's or you can go to empire space and fight there when you get the urge to fight in a small ship.

I do actually agree with you that the "free" skill points coming up this summer suck. I don't want my char to have 6 million more SP's and the same abilities because of clone costs. It would be much nicer if CCP just stripped BC and Destroyer from all characters and gave appropriate points refunds for them. So people could buy the racial destroyers / BC's they want along with a few skills they want and not have to pay the clone cost for ship skills that they don't want. Seems to me that would be easier to code as well, but who knows how the server would handle that sort of thing.



I love this, maybe it is insulting because you failed to build a character appropriate for its intended purpose. Maybe its meant to be insulting. Your char paid 2 million per clone at some point, then 3, then 7.8 million! Wow, thats getting expensive, and I can't even use all those skill on a combat pilot? Hmm maybe I should start training one of my other chars up and think about this for a while? Hell with it, 13 mil!!! well I guess I will just be careful now...and keep training wahoo.

You made a mistake in character development. In Eve when you make mistakes you pay for them, other players are there to make sure of it because they have something to gain from your loss. Clone costs are no different.

Bro that is one of the stupidest replys i ever saw, you telling me that i have to handicap myself?By doing alts in my accound making my main my "persona" the one that i like to play with the one that has an history , friends and assorted social baggage go and train a alt?

You are seeing this from your perspective i guess you have your opinion and we have ours , i dont see the issue in lowering the prices of clones i mean would eve economy collapse? Allot of people have given good ideias to change how the clones work it isnt that hard really , changing one parameter in the code so that we can pvp in small ships..

I'm not your "Bro" and you may disagree with my reply, or perhaps you just don't like it, that's OK.

You are asking for a limitation to be removed just because you don't like dealing with it. Some people don't like dealing with bubbles, or gate camps, or ECM, or faction standing repair, or ship replacement costs / time, or grinding ISK. Some people don't like dealing with groups of people and yet many things in Eve cannot be accomplished by one person acting alone.

Eve is a place where the challenge comes from competing against other players. That competition extends far beyond the realm of FPS, there are many paths to victory. If the clone cost limitation is lifted from high SP characters those characters will have a significant advantage that they did not posses before. Freedom to operate wherever and in whatever ship they want to without having to consider loss of their clone.

I get that you "just want to hang with your friends in your favorite clone or whatever." But other players are here to fight, and to destroy one another if possible, that is what makes Eve great. This is a competitive game, not a chat room in space. The risk, the fact that you are playing against others who want to win as much as you do, and that there are many ways to win; is what sets Eve apart, what makes it a great game.

... we are not more powerful than lower characters we can just adapt better and faster no the odd nerf or buff or tactical situation.

So being able to adapt better and faster to the tactical situation is not a significant tactical advantage? One that is perhaps tempered by the risk to an expensive clone. And those costs don't add up enough to influence war strategy. That's what you are saying here?



Calling me "Bro" a second time is just trolling, it doesn't bother me or change my position at all. It does sort of splice together with the other strands of yourself here; logical fallacy, misspelling, baiting and inflammatory language. These traits go right along with petulant whining of children who can't be bothered to reach for a toy that they desire. Are you sure that you want to be the spokesman for your side of this argument?

I have listed many reasons why clone costs are an important part of balancing powerflation. That you have not read them or do not understand them is of little consequence.

ad hominem attacks are also a children to try and seem an intelligent person , But i do like how you try to pick apart my posts and quote parts of my posts , lets agree on to disagree then .And hope that a dev comes to elucidate ourselves the plebs of eve.

Death must have consequences and clone prices are already too cheap, it should be doubled, this is EvE Online not some kindgarden themepark game.

A good idea, see post above.

My 2 Cents

Clone grade upgrades needs to go out the door entirely. There's exactly zero gameplay benefits from having to remember to upgrade the silly little clone every time under penalty of risk losing skill points, which is nothing else but a cheap and underhanded mean to provide a way for things to go very wrong.

+++ its time to go

At first I totally agree with this... but clone upgrades serve one MAJOR purpose.... to inhibit death cloning...

You can't remove clone upgrade costs without putting some other limit on death cloning...

At first I totally agree with this... but clone upgrades serve one MAJOR purpose.... to inhibit death cloning...

You can't remove clone upgrade costs without putting some other limit on death cloning...

The only time I do that is to move my cyno guys around and they are all alpha clones. The perceived problem of death cloning everywhere for total power projection is largely exaggerated. It's useless to death clone if you don't also have the ship you need over there. A civilian miner and a railgun won't do much for you. eh? Those who do have tons of ships everywhere did put much time, effort, and ISK into it. They can have a slice of cake, no?

The real crux of the issue here is the cost of clones. The upcoming skill tree changes will push this guy into the 20 millions ISK per death. Why should I be penalized that much for being "old"? There is only so many skillpoints that can affect a given ship in space anyway...

So, again, what benefit does this feature bring the players?

Ok here is the deal, I'll break it down so any f*****g idiot can understand it.

There are 22 different clones, displaying sp/isk and total cost.
The clone grade Omega protects 3 sp per Isk. Clone cost 150 000 000
The clone grade Psi protects 2,86 sp per Isk. Clone cost 120 000 000
The clone grade Chi protects 2,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 90 000 000
The clone grade Phi protects 3,12 sp per Isk. Clone cost 65 000 000
The clone grade Upsilon protects 3,47 sp per Isk. Clone cost 45 000 000
The clone grade Tau protects 4 sp per Isk. Clone cost 30 000 000
The clone grade Sigma protects 4,63 sp per Isk. Clone cost 20 000 000
The clone grade Rho protects 5,46 sp per Isk. Clone cost 13 000 000
The clone grade Pi protects 7 sp per Isk. Clone cost 7 800 000
The clone grade Omicron protects 8,98 sp per Isk. Clone cost 4 700 000
The clone grade Xi protects 10,97 sp per Isk. Clone cost 2 990 000
The clone grade Nu protects 12,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 1 980 000
The clone grade Mu protects 14,93 sp per Isk. Clone cost 1 340 000
The clone grade Lambda protects 16,88 sp per Isk. Clone cost 930 000
The clone grade Kappa protects 19,08 sp per Isk. Clone cost 650 000
The clone grade Iota protects 20,85 sp per Isk. Clone cost 470 000
The clone grade Theta protects 23,13 sp per Isk. Clone cost 335 000
The clone grade Eta protects 24,4 sp per Isk. Clone cost 250 000
The clone grade Zeta protects 26,67 sp per Isk. Clone cost 180 000
The clone grade Epsilon protects 28,85 sp per Isk. Clone cost 130 000
The clone grade Delta protects 29,47 sp per Isk. Clone cost 95 000
The clone grade Gamma protects 31,54 sp per Isk. Clone cost 65 000

So if we would FOR EXAMPLE give cheaper clones to newbies (as is today) and then use a balanced ratio of the Iota SP/Isk ratio. Eg; price increases SP/Isk untill you reach Iota, where it will settle and remain 20.85 SP / Isk thru out the rest of the board.

The prices for clones would then be something like this. Keeping current for lowbie clones and then using 20.85 SP / Isk from Iota clone and up.
65000 for the Gamma clone.
95 000 for the Delta clone.
130 000 for the Epsilon clone.
180 000 for the Zeta clone.
250 000 for the Eta clone.
335 000 for the Theta clone.
470 000 for the Iota clone.
595 000 for the Kappa clone.
753 000 for the Lambda clone.
959 000 for the Mu clone.
1 228 000 for the Nu clone.
1 573 000 for the Xi clone.
2 024 000 for the Omicron clone.
2 619 000 for the Pi clone.
3 405 000 for the Rho clone.
4 436 000 for the Sigma clone.
5 755 000 for the Tau clone.
7 482 000 for the Upsilon clone.
9 736 000 for the Phi clone.
12 662 000 for the Chi clone.
16 475 000 for the Psi clone.
21 583 000 for the Omega clone.

Current pricing model is not a Risk vs Reward situation, because the increased price per level is nothing but a penalty.

Look at it from another perspective if we bring all the clones in line with the 3SP / Isk ratio that CCP seems to let the clones land on in the end, it would show a pricing range of something liket this:

Displaying price at 3SP / Isk.
683 000 for the Gamma clone.
933 000 for the Delta clone.
1 250 000 for the Epsilon clone.
1 600 000 for the Zeta clone.
2 033 000 for the Eta clone.
2 583 000 for the Theta clone.
3 267 000 for the Iota clone.
4 133 000 for the Kappa clone.
5 233 000 for the Lambda clone.
6 667 000 for the Mu clone.
8 533 000 for the Nu clone.
10 933 000 for the Xi clone.
14 067 000 for the Omicron clone.
18 200 000 for the Pi clone.
23 667 000 for the Rho clone.
30 833 000 for the Sigma clone.
40 000 000 for the Tau clone.
52 000 000 for the Upsilon clone.
67 667 000 for the Phi clone.
88 000 000 for the Chi clone.
114 500 000 for the Psi clone.
150 000 000 for the Omega clone.

We want things brought in line, pref also reduced compared todays pricing model because todays model is a penalty against experienced players. This is a move towards small ship combat and away from the capital fights of today.

The risk involved in combat should be Ships, Equipment, Implants, Boosters. This grants a reward to the pilot.
The risk involved in Skillpoints is the time invested in the game. This grants a reward to the pilot.

Examples from other games include the weight of money in EQ, it used to be the case that you had to account for the encumbrance of coins on your character and if you had a lot of money it would slow you down.

Increasing clone costs are the same sort of mechanic, they help maintain balance and create an atmosphere of increased risk appropriate for those characters who have made it to the higher levels of play.

The risk involved in combat should be Ships, Equipment, Implants, Boosters. This grants a reward to the pilot.
The risk involved in Skillpoints is the time invested in the game. This grants a reward to the pilot.

That space poor people make me laugh.
-ƒ-+-+-à-+-+-â -é-¦-+-å-+-Ç-â -Å-¦-å-¦ -+-¦-ê-¦-Ä-é.