Complaining about people who don't interact with you is like complaining that there are neutrinos in your breakfast cereal.

You can turn an isolationist into an active member of the community if they're in game.

You can't once they've left or if they never stayed in the first place.

Oh don't play dumb, of course they exist... You can't both say they don't exist yet somehow cause a problem.

Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/

Poetic has but one thought and repeats it endlessly.

Sad really.

Do you have any thoughts about that one thought or are you just here to ***** post count?

Yes.

sorry, you edited your post as I was replying.

So my answer makes no sense now.

Carry on pixel hard-man.

Poetic Stanziel is a terrible blogger. Always has been. He probably writes ten times as much as he farts. One needs to tie a sausage around his neck for the dog to play with him. He does not understand that people do not want to play with everyone while has has a disliking of his own. His articles are full of such crap.

Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/

Would you like to talk about why you think he's wrong or is "you're wrong because **** you" the extent of your intellectual capability?

Here's a different perspective on the issue.

Ultimately, the issue is not whether people like to play solo or not. People can play how they choose - sandbox, ya know? The issue is whether CCP are willing to amend the core structure of the game to suit solo play.

Complaining about people who don't interact with you is like complaining that there are neutrinos in your breakfast cereal.

Woah, if I *ever* have seen a straw man argument, it's been this one!

"Playing solo" is not the same as "playing single-player".

If i wanted to mine single-player, I would be playing X3.

Instead, I did played a game where i had to jump to 6 bookmarks before finding some unmined scordite.

And then i would mine it on my own, sometimes with a Hulk, soemtime with a Rokh -if it was a certain time of the year.

Then I would sell that mineral for a variable price.

And all that time, I would be sharing the universe with other people without actually socializing them. That kept things interesting, albeit the mecchanic involved was awfully boring. So I would then open a chat window and socialize with other people without actually exchanging any game resources with them, only my time -and theirs- as we all waited for something to happen ingame that required our attention. Maybe a scordite scan dropping below 11k, so was time to switch the strip miner to another rock...

So no, "playing EVE solo" does not equal to "single player". What it equates though, is to be faced with some of the most awfully unrewarding (and/or time-wasting) mechanics ever implemented in a game... which is not OUR fault.

Next thing you know he will be complaining about doors. How every house, every room, has got a door and how doors are terrible, because they disallow free movement and a world without doors would be much more open and interactive, and doors a so bad. If one could only shut down his blogs...

Again with the analogies that have no resemblance to what I said at all.

True, because I did not reply to you but to Sentient Blade.

Yes, and you were talking about me.

Are you Poetic Stanziel?

The guy you quoted was talking to me, then you quoted him with "Next thing you know he'll blah blah blah.". Did I have a reason to think you weren't talking about me?

Not gonna lie. This thread has ZERO potential.

For the third time, would you mind telling us why you think that's the case? I don't think you get how this whole 'talking to people' thing works. People can't discuss your opinion with you if they don't know what it is.

Here's a different perspective on the issue.

Ultimately, the issue is not whether people like to play solo or not. People can play how they choose - sandbox, ya know? The issue is whether CCP are willing to amend the core structure of the game to suit solo play.

With regard to the article by poetic...and I quote, "...a very small subset of the entire Eve population..."

So, what exactly is all the fuss about?

Ignore them or gank them.

They whine on the forums to change the game. They are the ones who have broken the barge lineup and they are the ones who are whining about bumping. Anything that gets in the way of their game time is seen as bad and must be removed even if that thing is a cornerstone of EVE.

If there are so few of them, and they can make CCP dance to their tune, they seem to me to be really, really good at Eve.

Perhaps the, 'make Eve harder - meaner - tougher', folk should ask them for advice on meta-gaming.

A change that will be delt with when barges are balanced correctly.

It also has unfortunate implications for life in low and null. One of the more striking things I noticed since being back is the complete absence of anyone but other PvPers in low.

I hear industry is quite dead in null too. I was also surprised to learn that most people have high sec alts.

Belt piracy used to be a thing, you know. I'd like it to be again some day. I'd also like to be in a low sec corp with a manufacturing division again, if such a thing still existed. Even some of us rabid PvPers like to build something once in a while.

There are missions in low and null. People could do them while the PvPers in their corp camp the gate or patrol, like we used to do in my mining corp. People would interact and help each other and it would be awesome. Or at least it would be if everyone wasn't making piles of ISK AFK in high.

Selling veldspar on the market isn't interacting with other people. It's interacting with the UI.

exactly. because this veldspar is sold into NPC buy order and wasn't used by other players to build stuff/resell/etc...

They post a lot. We have learned our lesson and now counter them in every post and hit them with real numbers that they cannot counter. They managed to get one change through and nothing else. A change that will be delt with when barges are balanced correctly.

doesn't matter what's done with the veldspar, but making a sell order isn't interacting with other players.
creating a buy/sell order is simply interacting with the ui regardless of who buys it.

market subforum will like to have word with you

I don't know when you started this whine campaign but goons and other whiners make like 99.99% of whine posts in forums since i first visited it....

let's say for every 1 anti-suicide gank post i see 10 posts "nerf this, nerf that, nerf whatever bears have!"

They whine on the forums to change the game. They are the ones who have broken the barge lineup and they are the ones who are whining about bumping. Anything that gets in the way of their game time is seen as bad and must be removed even if that thing is a cornerstone of EVE.

Though I disagree with some of it, I thought this conversation and both linked articles were interesting. As it's been stated in these forums 10,000x that all activities in this game except for ship spinning are pvp, it's difficult to believe anyone can still think solo play exists in the sandbox. Regardless of whether a player is mining solo or mission running solo, once he's undocked, he provides opportunities to other players. That simply isn't solo gaming.

And as to whether market activities constitute social participation:

From the Winter 2012 CSM minutes (again) pgs 9-10:

"Two step cautioned that some of these lurkers never truly engage the community, playing exclusively solo.

Unifex replied: Yes, but does that player that is completely on their own, do they buy anything off of the market? Because that is a form of community participation as well. When we talk about a social game, it's not always about having lots of conversations with people. We have to broaden what we consider social participation in a game like EVE."

Yeah yeah. I know, if it's you making the complain then it isn't a whine. It's only a whine when it's coming from one of those pesky "carebears".

Wrong.

We reply to their threads and turn it on them to get real problems fixed.

Though I disagree with some of it, I thought this conversation and both linked articles were interesting. As it's been stated in these forums 10,000x that all activities in this game except for ship spinning are pvp, it's difficult to believe anyone can still think solo play exists in the sandbox. Regardless of whether a player is mining solo or mission running solo, once he's undocked, he provides opportunities to other players. That simply isn't solo gaming.

And as to whether market activities constitute social participation:

From the Winter 2012 CSM minutes (again) pgs 9-10:

"Two step cautioned that some of these lurkers never truly engage the community, playing exclusively solo.

Unifex replied: Yes, but does that player that is completely on their own, do they buy anything off of the market? Because that is a form of community participation as well. When we talk about a social game, it's not always about having lots of conversations with people. We have to broaden what we consider social participation in a game like EVE."

Unifex reminded the CSM once again that this group, the lurking single players who are already
subscribed, are the majority of characters on Tranquility. Essentially the GÇ£social value, or social equityGÇ¥ of
a player group increases as you move from left to right (on the whiteboard), even though the size of that
player group becomes much smaller in number. In other words, the 10,000 combined instigators and
enablers become as equally valuable as the much larger lurking population. Unifex admitted that
historically, CCP had not been good at balancing their efforts and servicing all groups.

social participation doesn't mean player interaction.

i agree that using the market is social participation, however in doing so you haven't interacted with a player. they don't have to be online (hell, they don't even have to be aware of it) in order for you to purchase their goods, or for you to sell goods to them.

Are you saying that playing the markets is not a form of PVP (Player vs Player)?

Are you saying that playing the markets is not a form of PVP (Player vs Player)?

Just out of interest, who are these anti-sandbox carebears who are calling for their own special protective area? I honestly don't think I've ever read any blog or forum post or met a player in-game who has been asking for this. I don't read *that* many blogs but I honestly don't recall anyone asking for this feature, otherwise I probably would have replied rather curtly and suggested they consider another game.

I like how the commenter "the real one" said:



Its almost as if these people need to make a up an opponent to bash.

social participation doesn't mean player interaction.

i agree that using the market is social participation, however in doing so you haven't interacted with a player. they don't have to be online (hell, they don't even have to be aware of it) in order for you to purchase their goods, or for you to sell goods to them.

nope, Dave still thinks NPC's are making up the marketprices.

Been playing since '05 and have seen just as many or even more whines from the hardcore 'elite' PVPers. So your claim is simply false. In fact, I've seen you yourself whine quite more often than any other one "carebear" in the forums.

Yeah yeah. I know, if it's you making the complain then it isn't a whine. It's only a whine when it's coming from one of those pesky "carebears".

And then Unifex stated one of those things the baltec1 of the game still can't understand:

The difference between a whine and a complaint is one of facts. I have them and the whiners only have insults.

It's one of the two big misused words around here, the other being cying.

On the subject of insults, I've seen these thrown out more from the elite PVP camp than from carebears themselves, you included. Carebears and miners are by far the largest targets for 'elitist' PVPers to sling insults and degrading comments against. Since I started playing it's non-stop. So again, I have to call you out on your post above.

From my observation, reason and logic has never explained the level of hate, disdain, and contempt that you and some of the other very vocal anti-carebear players bring to this forum. But to be fair, this behavior isn't unique to Eve alone. However, for whatever reasons, you do tend to be more aggressive and vocal than what I've observed elsewhere.

insults that get thrown at me because of my corp and alliance.

it's the go to comment when people run out of valid points, doesn't matter what your corp or alliance is.

not in goons but somewhere else? they say they've never heard of you, you're a nobody, hence your voice is irrelevant.
not in a player corp? assumed to be some npc alt hiding, hence your voice is irrelevant.
no matter what corp you are in, because it's not theirs, your voice is irrelevant.

and they're still crying about the barges

and they're still crying about the barges

is that on account that the barge rebalance was terrible and didn't balance the barges in the slightest?

it wasn't terrible, you might argue they've been overbuffed with regard to tank in some cases but the retriever badly needed a buff as it was an enormous industrial ship made of papermache.

and all the rest of them were worthless once you could fly a hulk.

yes it was, they are in no way balanced.

there are three ships, with three roles. each ship should have the highest of one stat, the lowest of another, and middle of the road for the final stat. that simply isn't the case with any ship but the skiff/procurer (which, ironically as the most "balanced" in that regard is the least used).

as for the rest of them being worthless once you could fly a hulk... you mean like the rest of them being worthless now you can fly a retriever (hell, you don't even need a mackinaw to make the rest of them worthless)?

if you fly retrievers you should know just how much their cap sucks and why you want a mack. hulks are still used for fleet mining. I don't really use the others as I mine solo like a lot of people which is why you're seeing retrievers everywhere. it used to be hulks everywhere because that was the solo ship of choice before.

they all have their roles though, even if a BS size tank isn't that useful on a barge as mining lowsec solo mostly isn't worth the effort.

cap is fine, they're perfectly cap stable without training any cap skills.
i'm well aware of what a hulk is for.

sure they all have roles, that doesn't make them balanced.

i can't even warp gate to gate across some systems in one go with it, and therefore is too annoying for me to use. i guess it's fine if you want a cheap ship and you aren't moving much.

warping to a gate has nothing to do with mining barge balance...

you said there was no reason for anyone to progress further than the retriever. i just gave you a reason.

the balancing part was merely buffing it so it couldn't be one-shotted by destroyers. this upset a lot of people as they were having a lot of fun with that. I know myself, sometimes i get sick of a game but then I find some cool undocumented feature that supports grief play, especially grief play toward cheats or people playing very defensively. like the booster hunting thing in MW2 was amazing, I had so much fun with that so i get the upset but it's possible they just need to unsub for a while if the game is boring them, rather than complaining.

should send a message, you know?

and there's a lot of frikkin' complaining on here. just seems like the same old slogans being parroted about.

exactly. because PVPers made anyone other left these places.

exactly. because PVPers made running missions/mining/belt running in low/0.0 too danger so anyone smart evades these cursed places.

what prevents you from doing this? Organize industry in your corp. Organize mining ops and all this stuff.

missions in low/0.0 already give more LP and ISK than in empire. Everyone who accepts risk already run these missions. Others prefer lower rewards but higher security. What is wrong here?

exactly. because this veldspar is sold into NPC buy order and wasn't used by other players to build stuff/resell/etc...

On the subject of insults, I've seen these thrown out more from the elite PVP camp than from carebears themselves, you included. Carebears and miners are by far the largest targets for 'elitist' PVPers to sling insults and degrading comments against. Since I started playing it's non-stop. So again, I have to call you out on your post above.

Things carebears have threatened me with:

Raping various members of my family.

Killing various members of my family.

Doing the above to me.

Doing the above to my pets.

Hacking various accounts, including, but not limited to, my bank, Eve, and e-mail accounts.

Getting their GM and/or dev friends to ban me for doing something they don't like.

Suicide.

Kicking my ass.

Paralyzing me.

Calling me various racial slurs and threatening to have me deported.

And many more.

All of these are threats that would put them in jail if I thought they were actually capable of carrying them out and reported them. When I fight anyone in low or null they usually say "GF" or nothing at all. When I kill a carebear It's not uncommon for me to be subjected to a 30+ minute profanity stream.

[warping to a gate isn't a reason. if i'm in a mining ship, i'm mining. so being able to warp to a gate is completely irrelevant. it also seems irrelevant to about 1/3 of high sec who appear to be using a retriever too. looking at the figures between just the mack and ret, there appears to be more ret users, than mack users in high sec for example.

as for the rest of that, it again, has nothing to do with the balance of mining ships.

Things pvpers have publically threatened with:

Raping various members of my family.

Killing various members of my family.

Doing the above to me.

Doing the above to my pets.

Hacking various accounts, including, but not limited to, my bank, Eve, and e-mail accounts.

Getting their GM and/or dev friends to ban me for doing something they don't like.

Suicide.

Kicking my ass.

Paralyzing me.

Calling me various racial slurs and threatening to have me deported.

And many more.

it's not irrelevant to mining. I always mine systems with no station and have to make at least one jump to my refine station. you have to get out there these days.

The belts in systems next door to Amarr are untouched. Theres no need to solo mine in a stationless system.

haha, good one.

I spent 8 months giving out anti gank barge fittings and got nothing but insults back. Sorry but bears are by far the most likely to start throwing around the insults. But please, by all means go find where I have gone out and insulted people right off the bat.

While you're at it, look up the amount of insults that get thrown at me because of my corp and alliance.

haha, good one.

Today at 10:00 EVE time they were untouched still with nobody in them. The only systems the get mined out constantly are the ones around Jita, even Amarr has rocks in it.

there are plenty of high sec systems with a station, and plenty of belts that you simply don't need to mine in a system without a station.

I haven't seen a ganker in months and i'm often the only person in local. that;s pretty good security.

I have an ore hold of 35Km3, I only need to jump every 40 minutes or so.

I haven't seen a ganker in months and i'm often the only person in local. that;s pretty good security.

I have an ore hold of 35Km3, I only need to jump every 40 minutes or so.

Chribba, I am disappoint.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.[1]

The term "free roam" is also used, as is "sandbox" and "free-roaming".[2][3] "Open world" and "free-roaming" suggest the absence of artificial barriers,[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. An "open world" game does not necessarily imply a sandbox. In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.

Today at 10:00 EVE time they were untouched still with nobody in them. The only systems the get mined out constantly are the ones around Jita, even Amarr has rocks in it.

well I was laughing more at the suggestion that i can mine safely next to a major trade hub.

maybe if it's a system without a station in i though. 'cos gankers looking at the map are just going to discount those.

Few people see a ganker these days.

Before commenting on the article itself, I'd just like to point out that some Eve players use the term sandbox in a way quite unlike anyone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game


Eve Online would still be a sandbox game if it was nothing but highsec. It'd still be a sandbox game if it didn't allow pvp combat at all. It'd certainly still be a sandbox if it was only a singleplayer game.

But here "sandbox" seems to be short-hand for "I want to be able to interact with other players in ways they don't like". I suppose it'll do, for want of a better term. "Social sandbox" perhaps?

i find it funny that you think you're going to get ganked.

I don't think i'm allowed to post killmails my mack has got but trust me it's still out there.

. From a player's perspective they effectively don't exist. From a developer's perspective these are people who are inevitably going to quit anyway and so are nearly irrelevant to profit.

I don't think i'm allowed to post killmails my mack has got but trust me it's still out there.

mine closer to jita then, no gankers there. i say that with a completely straight face.

as for the new order people, rofl, honestly, i'm not even convinced they exist.

Eh? You can still suicide gank an anti-social miner, ninjaloot from the anti-social mission runner, undercut an anti-social trader, and kill an anti-social pvper.

And catering entirely to the 5+ year vets is as foolish as catering entirely to new players. Vets get tired of the game and get burned out or just move on, they need to be replaced by new blood.

They whine on the forums to change the game. They are the ones who have broken the barge lineup and they are the ones who are whining about bumping. Anything that gets in the way of their game time is seen as bad and must be removed even if that thing is a cornerstone of EVE.

Your more likely to have your tengu ganked. Barges are statistically the safest ship to be in at the moment.

Carebears forced CCP to apply Tiericide to barges?

No, some people left because it's easier to spend 2 hours AFK in high than 1 hour paying attention in low for the same ISK. Then the rest of them left because everyone else was gone. If you put in any significant effort, PvPers aren't much of an issue. I know this from first hand experience running my own low sec mining corp back when such a thing still existed.

why do i have these highly amusing mackinaw killmails then?

I don't want to lose a single mackinaw, because it takes a long term to replace it with mining income. i mean, if you aren't running three accounts with orca support.

[quote=Takseen]Eh? You can still suicide gank an anti-social miner, ninjaloot from the anti-social mission runner, undercut an anti-social trader, and kill an anti-social pvper.

Carebears forced CCP to apply Tiericide to barges?

He's talking about the tank buff I think, which unfortunately I was actually in favor of because I thought not having to pimp fit to mine in null would get people out of high.

because you're bad at eve.
perhaps you should use a retriever instead, takes about 2 hours tops to replace one, even less if you're using multiple accounts.

tell me more about how i'm bad at eve because of my successful strategy.

why do i have these highly amusing mackinaw killmails then?

I don't want to lose a single mackinaw, because it takes a long term to replace it with mining income. i mean, if you aren't running three accounts with orca support.

losing mackinaws.
successful.

pick one, and only one.

you misunderstand.

the killmails i got with my mackinaw against gankers, hence not lossmails. i just had my drones out and set to aggressive and they got the kill.

Well barge tanks were laughably weak at the time, I remember looking at the numbers. It was a struggle to get a ship costing hundreds of millions of ISK to survive an attack from a destroyer costing a 10th of that money. Perhaps they overdid it, I haven't checked the new figures.

There's better ways to get miners into nullsec. See the nullsec vs highsec industry threadnaught on front page of GD.

Barge/exhumer kills are at their lowest point in the history of EVE.

[

PvPers are pretty chill about things compared to everyone else.

Well no, PVPers made sure that no matter how carefull you are in lowsec you will get the occasional loss and because of that the weekly/monthly income is similar for a similar amount of time played in low or high sec while low adds the nuisance off being constantly on guard while many simply want to relax.

As for your personaly experience could you tell us exactly when that was? And while your at give us an idea off how many other industrial corps were in operating in lowsec compared to the number of pirate corps operating there with a comparison to those numbers today? And perhaps then you'll realize that no one has any interest in setting it up since the moment they start something in low they will have a dozen pirate corps preying on them.

Also could you tell me what your problem is with only finding other PVPers in low? Aren't you looking for PVP or are you one off those that delude themselves with the idea the killing industrials and PVE fitted ships is actual PVP?

The simple fact is that PVPers made it unenjoyable for most to make a living in low and now that they only have targets that actually have a chance to fight back they complain that there aren't enough players and that CCP should find ways to herd non PVPers into low and null, but lets be honest here the players crying out for that don't want more players to live there they only want more easy targets.

The barges were indeed horrible before the patch but the exhumers however were more than able to be tanked.

No, some people left because it's easier to spend 2 hours AFK in high than 1 hour paying attention in low for the same ISK. Then the rest of them left because everyone else was gone. If you put in any significant effort, PvPers aren't much of an issue. I know this from first hand experience running my own low sec mining corp back when such a thing still existed.


Again, it had nothing to do with PvPers and everything to do with lazy, anti-social people.

How much acid did you have to drop before you thought you were interacting with someone you've never seen, spoken to or even been in the same system with?

So i'm right: PvPers made everybody left these places.

Here's some facts for you:

1. CCP didn't balance the barges

The same is with missions. Some time ago i've tried to run few missions in low-sec. Was hunted and scanned from start and needed to exit mission. And after that i don't accept missions in low-sec. Lazy bear you say? Yes.
However i've asked forums what could i do. And except "antiscan tengu is universal answer" i got nothing. Carebear has nothing to defend from PvPers when he runs mission.

So yes, missions in low-sec aren't used because of PVPers.

No you aren't. See my last post.

Your obsession with the state of mining barges is hilarious. Genuinely curious: why are you so passionate about that little corner of the game?

Here's some facts for you:

1. CCP didn't balance the barges because of some mythical carebear influence, they balanced them along with other ships based on the state of the game. Strings of Hulkageddons, interdictions etc. are more to blame than some imagined complainers. Have some faith that your game devs know what they're doing and don't blindly mess with stuff based on some forum posts.

2. If you find it remotely challenging to gank a miner, you are terrible.

So i'm right: PvPers made everybody left these places.

The same is with missions. Some time ago i've tried to run few missions in low-sec. Was hunted and scanned from start and needed to exit mission. And after that i don't accept missions in low-sec. Lazy bear you say? Yes.
However i've asked forums what could i do. And except "antiscan tengu is universal answer" i got nothing. Carebear has nothing to defend from PvPers when he runs mission.

So yes, missions in low-sec aren't used because of PVPers.

Unless the ones you run into in high sec are pretty much the exact opposite of the ones i'm used to dealing with, that kind of people are incredibly uncommon. We're used to losing multiple ships an hour sometimes. No ****s tend to be given. Carebears on the other hand act like it's the end of the world and completely flip out on you.

Missions just aren't good lowsec content, unless you can lock down your system. YWhich you can't do as easily in low as in null.
Plus you have to fly a big and expensive target, and there's a hefty penalty if you need to abandon a mission due to hostiles.

I think lowsec is better as a mostly consensual pvp zone in the FW model.

1. They were influenced by the months of whines which is why they got an EHP buff dispite the fact that the exhumers already had a tank in line with heavy assault cruisers. They also listened to us and removed an EHP buff they were going to give to the hulk.

i agree, but they could just change the low sec mission content to be more fw-like. escort scenarios etc. and making the different levels same class engagements and lower only like fw i think would be great for PvP.

It doesn't take much effort to make friends with the locals if you're a nice person, and once you've done that you can run lowsec missions to your hearts content in your finest faction battleship.

I spent 8 months giving out anti gank barge fittings and got nothing but insults back. Sorry but bears are by far the most likely to start throwing around the insults. But please, by all means go find where I have gone out and insulted people right off the bat.

While you're at it, look up the amount of insults that get thrown at me because of my corp and alliance.

I don't know. There has been plenty of "Nerf Hi-Sec, Buff null-sec" threadnaughts going on for quite some time, yet there doesn't seem to be any inclination on CCP part they are going to follow suit on those demands.

Now, it could be that a large percentage of players actually did say in their cancelation reason (when they canceled their subs) that they were quitting because their miner was ganked and then CCP acted on that instead of the forum complaints (as it directly hits their wallet).

But the truth is we don't know. CCP never came out and said we're making these changes because of X reason.

It was just assumed because of the threadnaughts that it was because of that. They might have had other reaons and we wouldn't know. Mabye a magic 8ball that said "Buff Miners" came up during the team meetings.

I don't know. There has been plenty of "Nerf Hi-Sec, Buff null-sec" threadnaughts going on for quite some time, yet there doesn't seem to be any inclination on CCP part they are going to follow suit on those demands.

Now, it could be that a large percentage of players actually did say in their cancelation reason (when they canceled their subs) that they were quitting because their miner was ganked and then CCP acted on that instead of the forum complaints (as it directly hits their wallet).

But the truth is we don't know. CCP never came out and said we're making these changes because of X reason.

It was just assumed because of the threadnaughts that it was because of that. They might have had other reaons and we wouldn't know. Mabye a magic 8ball that said "Buff Miners" came up during the team meetings.

Sure, that could work. I just think back to the types of high risk pve I have engaged in.
Escalations from highsec plexes-Short duration, can be done in a T1 cruiser, high chance of a big payout, no penalty if I have to abandon them.
C1/2 Wormhole anoms-shortish duration, not much loot to carry, nice payout, unique NPC combat I can't get in highsec, no penalty for abandoning, no local. The latter kinda works to my advantage since I'd prefer not to broadcast my presence automatically like I do in lowsec.

Basically if you could do lowsec level 4s in a BC or level 3s in a cruiser as you'd do them in a BS or a BC respectively in highsec, it'd be somewhat tempting to put up with the Dscan hassle. Even better if you could do them pvp fit.

Basically if you could do lowsec level 4s in a BC or level 3s in a cruiser as you'd do them in a BS or a BC respectively in highsec, it'd be somewhat tempting to put up with the Dscan hassle. Even better if you could do them pvp fit.

baltec1,

Firstly, you are no stranger around here. Just as I am known to be pro-carebear, you run on the opposite side of the line. Don't insult yourself by claiming anything else. Your 'selfless acts' of providing miners with fits ran along the lines of fit tank and HTFU. Stop pretending to be the gift to carebears. You're not. Ever since I can remember you've had nothing but disdain and contempt for carebears.

Second, what do you expect people to think of an alliance that, up until the time that one of your own died on a terrorist attack, made it a point to run campaigns based on real-life terrorist attack themes, even though repeatedly you were told that it was in poor taste? You associate with a group of players that have gone out of their way to grief play and come in here pretending like it's undeserved? You poor thing.

At no point have we ever taken part in "grief play".

Why are you taking a drunken guy speaking to goons while wearing a shiney wizards hat seriously?

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that he was drunk during the days it took him to prepare his presentation. But yeah, it's always the alcohol's fault :).

I hereby encourage people ton++ find and kill Alexander Gianturco.

The only people who took that seriously was white knighters such as yourself with an axe to grind. The irony here the people such as yourself arn't joking when you say things like

your last post is full of whine....


oops. sorry. this is complaints! Only bears whine.

However nothing new was told. The only difference between safe haven (high-sec) and low-sec is: CONCORD protection. Protection of one player from another. So all the reasons why bears left low-sec is other players. Who are these players? PvPers.

I beg your pardon? I see, retorting to lying now . Please do show where I have EVER said anything like that.

I think that's really key, as if you're in a (high sec) mission fit in low sec then you're in a fail fit. the content just has to be different.

also the damn thing should be able to cycle and set some audible warning of contact for the settings i choose.

Nothing wrong with PvE fits in low sec. People use them in null all the time. The reason it's still viable to do it in null, but not in low is that in null you have way more territory and that makes all the new ways of getting around gate camps less of a problem. In low when you wanted to carebear it up you found a string of dead end systems and camped the entrance to "your space". In null you have an intel channel warning you before people get anywhere near you. You have bubbles to give you more time to uncloak people. Your space is bigger than the range of a jump drive. You also have jump bridges to quickly bring in reinforcements. In low that unbubbled gate camp is the entirety of your defense. Before cloaking and jump drives that was viable. Now it isn't. High sec isn't the only problem. Low sec hasn't seen any non-FW love from CCP in forever.

well okay but that involves a level of organisation that solo high sec missioneers don't have to deal with. and apparently even if they do deal with it it doesn't work so maybe they should make it different to high sec?

same with mining really. why would i bother?

Never? That's odd, I seem to remember CCP complimenting the gankers when it first started happening. Of course, that was when we had original CCP like Oveur and not Punktarded.

poor foolish CCP, masters of the universe and yet... slaves to its inhabitants.

You'd rather they ignore us?

Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/

I don't see the problem. From a player's perspective they effectively don't exist. From a developer's perspective these are people who are inevitably going to quit anyway and so are nearly irrelevant to profit.

If I make a choice to segregate myself from the rest of the community, am I somehow bringing the entire EVE community down?

Ultimately, the issue is not whether people like to play solo or not. People can play how they choose - sandbox, ya know?

So Malcanis, if you make it to the CSM will you tirelessly advocate for me to be able to fly a Titan on a day 1 alt? Can it also be free and invincible? It's how I want to play, and this is a sandbox isn't it? *stomps foot and pouts*

On a more serious note, you called me out over my signature once before, so I'm curious exactly how you define the sandbox. To me, the word sandbox certainly doesn't imply a magicbox where you get everything you want and get to play absolutely anyway you like with no restrictions or impediments.

Players that want to be left alone, that donGÇÖt want to interact, these are not CCPGÇÖs core audience. These are short-term players at best.

LetGÇÖs be honest. The PvE in EVE is terrible. ItGÇÖs lacks any sort of challenge. ItGÇÖs repetitive. ItGÇÖs not immersive. ItGÇÖs boring as hell. People that want to play PvE and nothing else, who want no interaction with other people unless it is on their terms, these people are not long for this game.

The only thing that will get those players to stay is the PvE, and EVE is never going to have PvE that can challenge the World of Warcrafts, or the Guild War 2s, or the Lord of the Ring Onlines, or the Teras

Those anti-sandbox people, they create nothing, they give nothing to the game, nobody even knows they exist, except for their complaining.

They can play how they choose within he parameters of the game. One of what Tippia calls "Malcanisism's" is that Sandbox means you are entitled to attempt whatever you want, not that you're entitled to succeed.



See above. If people want to try to play EVE like a solo game, then more power to them. They're perfectly entitled to do so. Personally I think it's a waste and that they're missing out on everything that makes EVE worthwhile, but it's no skin off my nose as long as CCP don't modify core game mechanics to enforce their decision (as I specifically said in the post that you quoted but for some reason decided to miss out from your quote)

E: And I've read enough of your campaign thread to know that''s not what you advocate. =P

Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/

I need to differentiate between your normal EVE carebear and the anti-sandbox player. There are players who do spend the majority of their time in PvE pursuits, who tend to avoid PvP, and who are long-term players. What makes these players different from the anti-sanbox crowd is that they understand and accept that EVE is a game of interaction. They understand that other players may come along at any time to knock down some section of their sandcastle. Their acceptance is why they remain. They relish the extra danger, the unknown, the unpredictability of the players around them. The PvE is still boring as hell, but itGÇÖs spiced up with the unknown variable that is the rest of the playerbase. IGÇÖm am totally cool with these people. These are carebears I respect. These are dudes who get involved with the game, who interact with other players, who are involved in the social fabric of the game.

Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/

I'm a total noob and full carebear to boot (Trying to fix that! Honest!) but I'm honestly rather confused about the whole High vs Null etc. argument. Is the fact that I mine stuff physically preventing you from flying around and blowing up ships? If I make a choice to segregate myself from the rest of the community, am I somehow bringing the entire EVE community down? And inversely, if you like suicide ganking my barge, are you truly causing carebears everywhere to unsub en-masse?

Unless my actions are in direct, intentional conflict with yours, how on earth am I ruining your game experience? And even if they are ruining your experience...isn't this EVE, where s*** is supposed to happen? Are we all not supposed to deal with the s*** and HTFU? Or is the vocal minority just a pack of hypocrites holding different signs?

The guy you quoted was talking to me, then you quoted him with "Next thing you know he'll blah blah blah.". Did I have a reason to think you weren't talking about me?

Edit: Wow, it's almost 4am! Where did all that time go? I'll check back here tomorrow to reply to the inevitable rage storm from the trammies for daring to get sand on them.

At least people can relate to pie.