One of the most glaring issues facing EVE is the terrible SOV mechanics which promote stagnation and isk hording and put "gf" pvp as an ancient memory.

I started to ask myself why do these null sec carebears continually come to the forums and complain about high sec and its pending destruction of this great pvp game when the SOV mechanics and system have done more harm to pvp then anything in high sec at current or in the future.

The answer is fairly obvious. These null sec alliances whom have blued up 70% of SOV space love their empires filled with isk spigots attached to moons giving them enormous passively earned wealth. They love to shoot their wealthy rats without a care in the world making more isk than mission runners in high sec. Lets not forget how much isk they earn shooting up dead space complexes without any worry about pvp. They can mine without any risk and reap the benefits. Hell no they dont want that to change. Instead they focus their energies on taking MORE by trying to lay the blame for the state of pvp in the game at the doorsteps of high sec.

I argue that may of the loudmouthed null bear trolls on this forum are more risk averse than many of the targets of their sharp tongued attacks. They are not looking for "change" to better EVE, bring about more pvp or bring balance to the game as a whole, they are simply looking for more isk and power.

Its a shame. If these null care bears would put as much effort into changing the real mechanic that can bring null sec back to life instead of engaging in the only pvp they wish to engage in at this point which is forum pvp. Turn that energy into changing SOV and it would benefit EVERYONE in the game and would draw people into null because they would have a fighting chance.

Unfortunately they are not interested in such a noble endeavor. They will merely keep on hiding the fact they are the ones who truly are the care bears hiding form the good fight behind terrible mechanics all the while acting the full part of hypocrite while pointing the finger at the "risk averse" high sec'er as the doom of everything good and righteous in EVE.

Null bears, you are not fooling anyone and only serve to make yourselves and your alliances look even more foolish than they currently look.

How did you miss the 110+ page thread about 2 months ago that covered SOV?

I started to ask myself why do these null sec carebears continually come to the forums and complain about high sec and its pending destruction of this great pvp game when the SOV mechanics and system have done more harm to pvp then anything in high sec at current or in the future.

A well written rant is still a rant.

tl:dr

remove local and increase the ISK from NS (not through bounties and inflation)

Welcome to human nature. Hardly anyone ever looks in the mirror.

People think that ruining highsec or buffing nullsec will cause of rush of players into null. Hah! I've got news for them.

buffing hisec caused a rush of players out of null

apparently you don't really have news for anyone

I like how the title of these threads always have "An honest look at..." as if this adds credibility to the post.

ITT: People who make tons of money off of gigantic wars beg and plead for people to start fighting again.

Not happening.

The proper way to begin fairy tales is with "once upon a time".

Have fun with your "wargames" btw. pathetic

In before lock.

nope

incursions were added to hisec and they were vastly more lucrative than any other activity in the game short of running capital escalations in wormholes, causing an exodus of PvE alts to hisec

continue being wrong i guess

also let me know when the equivalent of a ~20-30 minute engagement in hisec leads to 600b in losses

also let me know when the equivalent of a ~20-30 minute engagement in hisec leads to 600b in losses

If you think that's what they've been going on about it really says it all.

The fact that you had that much to lose really doesnt fit well with the "we are poor, buff null sec or we will starve" argument the sock puppets have been running on the board for about a week.

nobody has said that

the argument is that hisec being as lucrative as it is means that there is no incentive to fund your ships in 0.0 and actually put your assets at risk, rather than simply funding your PvP in the risk-free newbie area

Now that I have stirred some of the snakes with the truth...

Answer this question:

If you are truly looking for a better null sec and to draw players out into null sec why are you not at the forefront pushing for fundamental changes to SOV mechanics that would help break up the stagnant nature of SOV space?

You cant expect logical thinkers to believe that you are for the betterment of pvp and EVE when you only attack the mechanics of high sec and completely avoid the glaring issues in your own backyard.

you're still wrong and you haven't "stirred" any snakes, we just smelled the blood in the water

please continue being wrong because your cashout potential from this game is being threatened

nobody has said that

the argument is that hisec being as lucrative as it is means that there is no incentive to fund your ships in 0.0 and actually put your assets at risk, rather than simply funding your PvP in the risk-free newbie area

there's plenty of complaining about sov you nitwit you just don't have the wits to notice anything but a threat to your bot-aspirant behavior

check it out, ladies and gentlemen, this guy thinks we haven't been pushing for sov mechanics changes since 2010 while CCP has been more focused on bullshit expansions like tyrannis, incursion and incarna

Now that I have stirred some of the snakes with the truth...

Answer this question:

If you are truly looking for a better null sec and to draw players out into null sec why are you not at the forefront pushing for fundamental changes to SOV mechanics that would help break up the stagnant nature of SOV space?

You cant expect logical thinkers to believe that you are for the betterment of pvp and EVE when you only attack the mechanics of high sec and completely avoid the glaring issues in your own backyard.

Without a change to null sec SOV mechanics...where will they go? Oh, that's right. They will either rent from you or get popped until they unsubscribe and uninstall.

Any push for change to move players out of high sec that doesn't include and in depth push to change SOV mechanics is just and empty self serving load of malarkey.

Put your money were your mouth is. Back change to high sec and null sec SOV.

~by saying something hilariously obviously wrong in the title, i have puppetmastered people into opposing me which somehow means i was right all along~

~i have won again, people with braincells~

Because changing the way industry is done in null is a part of changing how sov works

do the thing you have been doing for years

not because you have been doing it for years do it because i command you

please

someone do something because of me besides mock me

please

Oh ho, but actually we're just using this to give the impression that actually highsec is truly balanced.

Because you're right even when you're a moron who shouldn't be allowed to post? Wait no, it's because nullsec is fine? No, highsec is fine, that's what matters.

Another blue donut?

No, no its not.

Because changing the way industry is done in null is a part of changing how sov works

Without a change to null sec SOV mechanics...where will they go? Oh, that's right. They will either rent from you or get popped until they unsubscribe and uninstall.

Any push for change to move players out of high sec that doesn't include and in depth push to change SOV mechanics is just and empty self serving load of malarkey.

Put your money were your mouth is. Back change to high sec and null sec SOV.

"naturally these guys want changes to hisec so they can expand their expansive renter empire"

okay guy since you clearly know about sovereignty, explain the process of taking a station system in detail

You probably shouldn't eat those blue donuts.

Oh god a either or option. Our argument is destroyed

let us all listen to the well-researched opinion of the guy who thinks nullsec hasn't been bitching about the terrible sov system since about three months after it was implemented and who has based his entire argument off that easily-debunked factual error

that sounds like a great use of time

okay guy since you clearly know about sovereignty, explain the process of taking a station system in detail

No, no its not.

That's it? Thats all you've got in response? Wow, sounds a bit like 'No YOU, Null Bear!' to me. I guess it was only a matter of time, although I admit I was surprised at the eloquence of you first couple of replies, I guess the old rant impulse just took over in the end.

listen to FC. hope I don't get called a lemming.

That's it? Thats all you've got in response? Wow, sounds a bit like 'No YOU, Null Bear!' to me. I guess it was only a matter of time, although I admit I was surprised at the eloquence of your first couple of replies, I guess the old rant impulse just took over in the end.

Well you introduced the idea into the discourse. How about you tell me how that helps change SOV mechanics before you call on me to back my response to your post through ad hominems.

okay guy since you clearly know about sovereignty, explain the process of taking a station system in detail

notice that the npc alt has not responded to this question

notice that the npc alt has not responded to this question

notice that the npc alt has not responded to this question

Notice how none of you are willing to admit that SOV, as is, is far more detrimental to good pvp than anything going on in high sec.

Its common knowledge how SOV works.

Funny thing to see all the goons here suddenly. And none of them really has anything constructive to say.

Well, at least few of them sometimes do have good ideas, but those always drown in the sea of normal goon blabber.

Funny thing to see all the goons here suddenly. And none of them really has anything constructive to say.

Well, at least few of them sometimes do have good ideas, but those always drown in the sea of normal goon blabber.

*ding ding ding*

Its and interesting quandary. Not completely unexpected however.

*ding ding ding*

Its and interesting quandary. Not completely unexpected however.

what could salvage this argument
facts? no
dealing with reality? no
sockpuppeting npc alts to mindlessly agree and say nothing? there's the ticket

sariah kion perhaps if you wanted to provoke an actual discussion you wouldn't have blatantly poisoned the well in your OP

and then accused everyone who disagrees of being "sockpuppets" (because you, the npc alt poster, are obviously not a sockpuppet)

sariah kion perhaps if you wanted to provoke an actual discussion you wouldn't have blatantly poisoned the well in your OP

and then accused everyone who disagrees of being "sockpuppets" (because you, the npc alt poster, are obviously not a sockpuppet)

and then posted with another character that is obviously your alt

I see you still choose to attack the poster and not debate the post.

A tactic those of your ilk are familiar with Im afraid.

what part of it isn't true

did you poison the well in the OP? yes

did you accuse others of being sockpuppets? yes

did you hop over to another npc corp posting alt to agree with yourself? yes

are you engaging in this very same practice of attacking the poster and not debating the post? yes

allow me to point out where you blatantly poisoned the well


well it was actually the entirety of your OP save for that first sentence

need i point out the hypocrisy in crying "ad hominem" when you, well, poisoned the well to begin with

that question does not exist in sariah kion's reality

you need to stop having this actual-reality bias and start dealing with a reality where all facts that are problematic for sariah kion's bot-aspirant fantasies do not exist

see a person interested in factual reality might have noticed the four pages of "sov sucks you idiot and should be replaced and we've been saying it for years"

but this is not the reality sariah kion chooses to use

If these "folks" really wanted to drive EVE into a better place as far as pvp there would be posts pushing SOV changes instead of complaining about high sec industrialists.

Thats really at the bottom of the well.

The change being pushed isnt about pvp or a better EVE its about agenda driven mandates to increase their bottom line and interests.

The first null sec SOV dweller that comes out and says we need change to the game as a whole, starting with SOV and working or way back up to High Sec is a poster and movement I would get behind and support.

~you have failed to force your facts from actual-reality into my reality, therefore i win~

So if you all agree that "SOV sucks" and its the real driving reason for the stagnation of PVP why are you laying at the feet of high sec dwellers?

The first null sec SOV dweller that comes out and says we need change to the game as a whole, starting with SOV and working or way back up to High Sec is a poster and movement I would get behind and support.

So if you all agree that "SOV sucks" and its the real driving reason for the stagnation of PVP why are you laying at the feet of high sec dwellers?

sov is one of the many problems with 0.0 that must be fixed

highsec is another

we are capable of holding more than one thought and expressing more than one idea

because the sov system isn't the real driving system for the stagnation of PvP but only a drop in an ocean of problems

one part of it is CCP's "everybody wins" philosophy that added nullsec levels of income potential to highsec, like incursions

So where are the posts from your ilk about SOV issues to go along with the daily bashing of high sec?

So where are the posts from your ilk about SOV issues to go along with the daily bashing of high sec?

Incursions were rebalanced.

There must be some truth coming from the OP because the Goonies turned out in force to ignite their flamethrowers on this one.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

There must be some truth coming from the OP because the Goonies turned out in force to ignite their flamethrowers on this one.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Oh look, once again we have the usual null crowd trying to convince everyone that null income sucks yet they're scared to do anything to risk their isk faucets and grip on power.

Keep trying, I'm sure you'll convince someone.

We got tired of refuting the positions of ignorant people/NPC corp alts in the sov null improvement threads

Oh look, once again we have the usual null crowd trying to convince everyone that null income sucks yet they're scared to do anything to risk their isk faucets and grip on power.

Keep trying, I'm sure you'll convince someone.

"~all four members of goonswarm are posting in this thread, it must be because the OP is right~"

I mean seriously, broken for years.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion?

Now that I have stirred some of the snakes with the truth...

Answer this question:

If you are truly looking for a better null sec and to draw players out into null sec why are you not at the forefront pushing for fundamental changes to SOV mechanics that would help break up the stagnant nature of SOV space?

You cant expect logical thinkers to believe that you are for the betterment of pvp and EVE when you only attack the mechanics of high sec and completely avoid the glaring issues in your own backyard.

So why has the blame shifted to high sec as the cause of so many woes in null sec pvp?

If we all agree that the SOV mechanic is terrible and needs to change seems we should all work together to get it done. At that point. We can have an honest discourse and move to change/nerf high sec to bring it in line with the "NEW" null sec.

Im not opposed to change in high sec. Im opposed to change in high sec that only satisfies ulterior motives and is driven by greed and power.

"~all four members of goonswarm are posting in this thread, it must be because the OP is right~"

School of Applied Knowledge

because if nullseccers are funding their PvP through hisec alts instead of actually putting assets on the line in 0.0, there are less targets

because if nullseccers are funding their PvP through hisec alts instead of actually putting assets on the line in 0.0, there are less targets

less targets means less PvP

get it now or are you going to explain why it is necessary for hisec to essentially have welfare gameplay

"Welfare gameplay"

Think about that for a minute while looking at the mirror and taking a long look at the way SOV works.

The irony and hypocrisy is almost palpable.

These null sec alliances whom have blued up 70% of SOV space love their empires filled with isk spigots attached to moons giving them enormous passively earned wealth.

They are not looking for "change" to better EVE, bring about more pvp or bring balance to the game as a whole, they are simply looking for more isk and power.

think about what you just said there

that sovereignty, which costs money to keep and requires shitloads of effort to maintain, is welfare, unlike hisec, where everything is provided to you for free

I dont expect you to see the obvious irony and hypocrisy. If you did we would probably agree that changes need to come to SOV first and then trickle down through the other areas of the game.

1. Fix SOV. Break up the stagnant nature of pvp.
2. Gather data after changes.
3. Nerf or alter other areas to bring them inline with the new SOV Null based on hard data made after altering the linchpin issue (SOV).

It seems like the most prudent course of events to most logical thinkers. Not sure why some of you always skip to step 3. Wait...yes I do.

i'm just laughing at you for pretending that hisec is anything but welfare land

i'm just laughing at you for pretending that hisec is anything but welfare land

This is a prime example of the thought process that leads to these pushes for nerfing high sec. Its not about "fixing pvp" or any other benevolent issue they claim. Its about some misplaced hatred for people who play the game different from themselves.

The fact that many toons in these null sec alliances have NOTHING to fear or risk because of the nature of SOV mechanics is the height of irony and hypocrisy.

Our GLORIOUS welfare land, where you can enjoy the fruits of NPC-provided services and even protection.

hard to compare the two, since "risk" is actually a quantity outside of highsec

So you're saying that CCP should throw away all the lore and backstory of the game and Empire space because "you mad"?

Most criminal types loathe law and order and government institutions in general.

Not surprised at your response.

the lore and backstory don't really make any sense when empires and CONCORD don't tax you for their protection and infrastructure

since hiseccers LOVE realism perhaps a 35% tax is in order, Just Like Real Life

Im not opposed to such a change so long as it comes right after the SOV change.

also i don't mean bumping npc corp taxes to 35%

i quite literally mean a hisec-wide tax

Hey I went to that site you're advertising and learned that zergs are ruining Planetside 2 but zergs are great for EVE.

So why has the blame shifted to high sec as the cause of so many woes in null sec pvp?

If we all agree that the SOV mechanic is terrible and needs to change seems we should all work together to get it done. At that point. We can have an honest discourse and move to change/nerf high sec to bring it in line with the "NEW" null sec.

Im not opposed to change in high sec. Im opposed to change in high sec that only satisfies ulterior motives and is driven by greed and power.

Hey I went to that site you're advertising and learned that zergs are ruining Planetside 2 but zergs are great for EVE.

it's almost like they are two different games

but i wouldn't expect the foil of the eve forums to consider facts contrary to its narrative

Zergs: Same ole problem, in every single mmo that makes it possible.

Let the nullbears cry till their pointless little empire breaks up from the inside. If they cared for anything besides their passive ISK/hour they'd break up their blue crapcake into a thousand pieces themselves.

The problem isn't SOV or Highsec, the problem is the Zerg and the F1 monkeys that participate. In the meanwhile, I'm looking forward to the Wargames. 10% TiDi in meaningless fights should be sooo exciting for everyone participating.

also i don't mean bumping npc corp taxes to 35%

i quite literally mean a hisec-wide tax

That wouldn't make a difference really as everything on the market would just increase by at least that much if not more to make up the difference.

I'd also wager that you would see a large number of subscriptions lapse.

if so many worthless pubbies are deeply concerned about two coalitions not grinding each other to death, why don't they band together and fight one of the two coalitions

oh right, it wouldn't be conducive to their goal of maximizing their cashouts

I would much rather Null industry is fixed as well as Sov when they get there.

With usage Sov it will mean if I want to duck shoot I know where to go and with an improved industry will mean I can go any where and pop some ratters or miners.

we don't give a flying **** what's "good for the game" in our politics; our continued existence takes priority over all else

nullsec isn't a spectator sport, if you want a war, shut off your ice mining bot and actually make some effort to form a group to fight us

otherwise, stop moaning

we don't give a flying **** what's "good for the game"; our continued existence takes priority over all else

I don't know about you two, but when I hear that Boat is going to shoot structures in subcaps I get a little ... excited.

And here we have the whole reason why they've been bleating for changes that benefit them over every other section of the game, why every change they have been screaming about is about making their little empires nigh untouchable at the detriment of any other section of space.

Good to know the wargames they're running is just a massive attempt to make CCP do what they want or they'll quit, at least according to Shadoo. Maybe the best thing to EVE would be the old blood burning out over a years long sov war and all quitting. Imagine the scramble for space (and excitement) left in that vacuum.

we don't give a flying **** what's "good for the game" in our politics; our continued existence takes priority over all else

nullsec isn't a spectator sport, if you want a war, shut off your ice mining bot and actually make some effort to form a group to fight us

otherwise, stop moaning

no you wouldn't unless that's a market tax

good, those are not the types that belong in eve anyway

If these "folks" really wanted to drive EVE into a better place as far as pvp there would be posts pushing SOV changes instead of complaining about high sec industrialists.

So why has the blame shifted to high sec as the cause of so many woes in null sec pvp?

I dont expect you to see the obvious irony and hypocrisy

Oh look, once again we have the usual null crowd trying to convince everyone that null income sucks yet they're scared to do anything to risk their isk faucets and grip on power.-áincome isn't particularly a factor and that it would be nice if more things were at risk in null.

Paying customers don't belong?

Oh dear, the amount of goontoon responses to other non-goon character responses is just pathetic. I guess they truely do have nothing better to do than troll gd while mining spod in nullbear-land. Amusing indeed.

You're sadly misinformed about the current state of nullsec politik. Your ignorance aside there's one huge difference between the person making isk in null and the person making isk in high sec; Tomorrow, someone can turn off their faucet. While that level 4 agent will always be there with unwavering resolve, space changes hands, blops gangs move in, alliances crumble. If you're suggesting that CCP is biased in favor of the content creators I'd say you might be onto something.

One of the most glaring issues facing EVE is the terrible SOV mechanics which promote stagnation and isk hording and put "gf" pvp as an ancient memory.

I started to ask myself why do these null sec carebears continually come to the forums and complain about high sec and its pending destruction of this great pvp game when the SOV mechanics and system have done more harm to pvp then anything in high sec at current or in the future.

The answer is fairly obvious. These null sec alliances whom have blued up 70% of SOV space love their empires filled with isk spigots attached to moons giving them enormous passively earned wealth. They love to shoot their wealthy rats without a care in the world making more isk than mission runners in high sec. Lets not forget how much isk they earn shooting up dead space complexes without any worry about pvp. They can mine without any risk and reap the benefits. Hell no they dont want that to change. Instead they focus their energies on taking MORE by trying to lay the blame for the state of pvp in the game at the doorsteps of high sec.

I argue that may of the loudmouthed null bear trolls on this forum are more risk averse than many of the targets of their sharp tongued attacks. They are not looking for "change" to better EVE, bring about more pvp or bring balance to the game as a whole, they are simply looking for more isk and power.

Its a shame. If these null care bears would put as much effort into changing the real mechanic that can bring null sec back to life instead of engaging in the only pvp they wish to engage in at this point which is forum pvp. Turn that energy into changing SOV and it would benefit EVERYONE in the game and would draw people into null because they would have a fighting chance.

Unfortunately they are not interested in such a noble endeavor. They will merely keep on hiding the fact they are the ones who truly are the care bears hiding form the good fight behind terrible mechanics all the while acting the full part of hypocrite while pointing the finger at the "risk averse" high sec'er as the doom of everything good and righteous in EVE.

Null bears, you are not fooling anyone and only serve to make yourselves and your alliances look even more foolish than they currently look.

Even now after buff they are a mere shadow of what they wore i have yet to see 200-500 ppl per system like it was,but 0.0 still have problem...you can remove them from high altogether and nerf l4 that would create critical mass of players and FORCE move them to 0.0.

Or they realise that the problems off null-sec are multi faceted and that they are too complex to be discussed in one debate. There are issues with industry, POSes, sov mechanics and moon mining, and these will need to be discussed/debated as seperate entities, otherwise the problem is just too large to even contemplate fixing.

Still, I'm sure that won't stop you replying with some sort of 'No YOU, Null bear!' nonsense and then having this thread locked for ranting

i didn't know we had 70% of nullsec blued

Maybe you should log in sometime, then.

One can only hope that CCP continue to develop Eve as a holistic entity rather than, 'I want...because it is good for my partisan game play, while claiming that what is good for me is good for the game'

...since Eve needs more ISK sinks, increasing the costs of NPC station slot usage is another nerf to highsec. If coupled with a PoS revamp and these PoS became the preferred way to build things, it would be less a nerf than a change of gameplay, since both null and high would be using PoS and on generally equal footing.

for eve to function as a holistic entity no region of space should provide everything you need for free

so yeah, hisec needs to be changed for eve to function as a "holistic entity" rather than being "hisec online"

ideas are judged by the caliber of their supporters and opponents

This is true, and that's why we can accurately assume that anything endorsed by Goonswarm is bad for everyone else in EvE - and vice versa.

buffing hisec caused a rush of players out of null

apparently you don't really have news for anyone

This is where you guys lose me every time. Anyone playing even a modest industrial game now, manufacturing goods on-site, across multiple regions, say 15-30 jumps from their POS, in a dozen stations, will not agree that the proposed changes aren't a "nerf." They nerf that guy's game haarrrd. Instead of being able to remote manufacture directly at the selling station, this new-vision for industry revolves around a far-removed POS instead. Just requiring ownership of a POS (hundreds of millions of isk monthly) to profit at basic industry (how much do you think folks are making on their t1 modules?) and freightering to a ridiculous degree (whoops gotta buy one of those also) for the same isk is gonna be a tough sell.

As I've already written, if a new indy player is going to be burdened with POS costs/maintence costs and 100x the logistics, the price per hour of a public slot is really going to be the least of their problems.

Ironically, the biggest issue for me though is that this idea will adversely affect player fluidity, which in turn adversely affects pgc. Instead of possibly playing a multi-regional, far-reaching game, everyone will be instead be tethered to a single point in space, reducing their sphere of influence. When a belt is mined out, it respawns emaciated. That process alone will ensure that relocating your high-sec POS becomes a frequent requirement. If I had to relocate my POS, every time I relocated myself in this game, that's all I'd do. I suspect part of the problem here is that in null no such freedom of movement is an option so restricting high sec in the same way seems to make perfect sense.

When I think about all the freightering, POS relocating, fuel purchasing, and other new logistics required under a move high sec industry to POS's plan, for the same isk, there's no conclusion to be made other than it's a game-changing nerf to high sec. So when I see you guys denying this or worse, calling it a buff, I just think someone needs to call you out on that.

YK

So you think fixing tech moons would be bad for everyone else in EVE?

This is where you guys lose me every time. Anyone playing even a modest industrial game now, manufacturing goods on-site, across multiple regions, say 15-30 jumps from their POS, in a dozen stations, will not agree that the proposed changes aren't a "nerf." They nerf that guy's game haarrrd.

Instead of being able to remote manufacture directly at the selling station, this new-vision for industry revolves around a far-removed POS instead. Just requiring ownership of a POS (hundreds of millions of isk monthly) to profit at basic industry (how much do you think folks are making on their t1 modules?) and freightering to a ridiculous degree (whoops gotta buy one of those also) for the same isk is gonna be a tough sell.

As I've already written, if a new indy player is going to be burdened with POS costs/maintence costs and 100x the logistics, the price per hour of a public slot is really going to be the least of their problems.

Good. That would mean the game becomes a lot more balanced GÇö a common reason to apply such nerfs.

Not really, since POSes aren't that expensive on an individual level, and since the profit from T1 will remain largely unchanged if all you're doing is moving people into POSes (and setting similar slot prices on NPC stations).

GǪbut that's not what anyone is suggesting. In fact, those new players are going to be burdened with public slot costs since a part of the rebalancing is to make those comparable in expense to owning and running a POS or an outpost.

see hiseccers are against an industry revamp to nullsec because it would be contrary to their goal of amassing as much isk as possible before cashing out of the game

an industry revamp in 0.0 would mean that a large number of the items consumed in 0.0 would be produced there, with only low-end minerals being imported from hisec

naturally, hisec producers don't wish to compete with their nullsec counterparts

For Eve to continue as a holistic entity, no region should ever be, for all practical purposes, be a self sufficient bubble. This includes hi-sec.

Fixed.

For Eve to continue as a holistic entity, no region should ever be, for all practical purposes, be a self sufficient bubble. This includes hi-sec.

The thing that strikes me on roams through nullsec is how empty it is, and how underexploited it is - there are sites full of high-grade ores (so the miners aren't even cherry-picking all the good stuff) and mountains of 'high-sec' ore, and systems that clearly haven't had any of their combat sites cleared for a week or more (so if they're being worked over at all, it's by cherry-picking only the highest hourly rate sites).

Nonsense. If income really wasn't particularly a factor you'd be out there mining all those low-end ores that you have, but which aren't very attractive and are best left to highsec to provide because they'll do it for less than the hourly rate nullbears expect.

The thing that strikes me on roams through nullsec is how empty it is, and how underexploited it is - there are sites full of high-grade ores (so the miners aren't even cherry-picking all the good stuff) and mountains of 'high-sec' ore

Now, it's probably correct to say that for the null pvpers "they are not very interested in income for its own sake", just as you can say that for pvpers anywhere and the people who buy shiny ships because they're shiny all over New Eden. But claiming that they don't particularly care about income is just BS.

Not really, since POSes aren't that expensive on an individual level, and since the profit from T1 will remain largely unchanged if all you're doing is moving people into POSes (and setting similar slot prices on NPC stations).

Same goes for the ignorant claim that they don't want to risk any sources of income and power. Again, if you had actually paid attention rather than dream up what you think people are saying, you'd notice that a lot of what's being asked for is a reason and an ability to put more assets at risk.

This will raise the price of T1 components and ships (and it will probably also apply a downward pressure on T1 raw materials).

Trade is healthy, self-sufficiency encourages insularity and stagnation.

If null-sec and low-sec industry needs a boost, IMO the solution is not to nerf high-sec, or to buff null- and low-sec industry in areas high-sec is good at, but to give these areas something to do that high-sec can't, or can't do efficiently. There's already some of this in the form of capital and super-captial production. This means high-sec keeps what it currently has, and trades it out to other places, and those other places gain something that will get used locally and traded out to high-sec, etc.

Trade is healthy, self-sufficiency encourages insularity and stagnation.

If sov structure bashing is such a grind, why not just call for an across the board structure HP reduction in sov null (say, 20% of their current values)?

Because it doesn't address the core of the issue, that there is nothing to actually fight over. You don't really lose much by losing all of your space besides the ability to build supercaps, which are plentiful on the open market anyway. If you're being invaded and fighting it off isn't really an option, your best strategy is to simply cut your losses, evacuate non-PvP related assets, focus your defense on money moons and systems with active CSAAs, occasionally harass the opposition by ganking stragglers and supercap pilots that screw up and make their grinding as miserable as possible.

buffing hisec caused a rush of players out of null

apparently you don't really have news for anyone

Notice how none of you are willing to admit that SOV, as is, is far more detrimental to good pvp than anything going on in high sec.

One of the most glaring issues facing EVE is the terrible SOV mechanics which promote stagnation and isk hording and put "gf" pvp as an ancient memory.

I started to ask myself why do these null sec carebears continually come to the forums and complain about high sec and its pending destruction of this great pvp game when the SOV mechanics and system have done more harm to pvp then anything in high sec at current or in the future.

I must've missed that expansion.

Besides, why would anyone rush out of a vast empire where people can mine and rat in nigh complete safety in some backwater system for a place where the threat of ganks and war are common?

Rather counter-intuitive, don't you think?

I don't think CCP really cares either.

I appreciate the honest and interesting reply, which on reading leads me to ask:

- If you believe some reports, many alliances, corporations and individuals in sov null are tremendously rich already. Would any sov null mechanic change produce anything that was worth fighting over in such circumstances?

- Isn't the owning/taking of sov an end in itself (bragging rights, e-peen and so on)? if not, what is sov null for?

-Is part of the sov null problem about super cap poliferation?