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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
117
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Posted - 2013.03.28 12:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hiyo!
My first project here is touching up the set of attack battlecruisers. This class was in a fairly oppressive state following their creation, but the constant upgrades to frigs and cruisers has brought them back in line somewhat. Our goal here is to make a little more room for both battleships and cruisers at both large and small scales. We're doing this through tweaks to scan resolution and signature radius changes for all four, agility tweaks for Naga and Oracle, and mass increase for Talos and Tornado. Hopefully the end result is that they are slightly more vulnerable to probing, bombing, and being caught by tackle than they were.
Note: we are aware that these ships will be getting hit twice. Once from these changes, and once from the TE change. We think they will still be a very strong option in many environments, even if both changes going through as proposed, but we are all ears to discussion.
ORACLE: Amarr Battlecruiser Skill Bonuses: -10% to large laser cap use and +5% to large laser damage Slot layout: 8H, 3M, 6L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 1375 PWG, 345 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1575 / 2160 / 1980 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 3500 / 875s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / .495 (+.02) / 14760000 / 10.1s (+.4s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 220 (-20) / 6 Sensor strength: 18 Radar Signature radius: 210 (+30)
NAGA: Caldari Battlecruiser Skill Bonuses: +5% to large hybrid turret damage and +10% to large hybrid turret optimal range Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 3L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 875 PWG, 425 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2160 / 1575 / 1755 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 2900 / 725s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195 / .525 (+.04) / 14760000 / 10.9s (+.8s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75000km / 200 (-20) / 8 Sensor strength: 21 Gravimetric Signature radius: 215 (+25)
TALOS: Gallente Battlecruiser Skill Bonuses: +5% to large hybrid turret damage and +7.5% to large hybrid turret tracking speed Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 5L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 1100 PWG, 360 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1750 / 1890 / 2160 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 3100 / 775s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220 / .45 / 15552000 (+1152000) / 9.7s (+.7s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 210 (-20) / 6 Sensor strength: 20 Magnetometric Signature radius: 220 (+20)
TORNADO: Minmatar Battlecruiser Skill Bonuses: +5% to large projectile turret rate of fire and +5% to large projectile turret falloff Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 4L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 1000 PWG, 342 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1890 / 1800 / 1800 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 2700 / 675s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225 / .475 / 15228000 (+1128000) / 10s (+.7s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 230 (-20) / 6 Sensor strength: 17 Ladar Signature radius: 195 (+25) |
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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2013.03.28 12:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
decent changes but i think you can go further here. -remove a turret -buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.
And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
4732
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Posted - 2013.03.28 12:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
I approve of this product and/or service. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
741
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Looks ok, but I don't think the Talos needs the drones. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
741
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I approve of this product and/or service. I though you went on holiday. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War Out of Sight.
1028
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Will hardly change anything and surely will not help battleships, if that was indeed your idea.
That said, it's still better to keep an eye on things instead of leaving them broken for years. My campaign for CSM 8 |
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
4
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:decent changes but i think you can go further here. -remove a turret -buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.
And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.
Removing a turret slot would probably be good idea since attack bcs get serious over DPS to anything else that you could fly. This would nerf the damage still giving bs level damage and good sniping ability, I also like the idea of utility high so just leave the 8 high slot? |
Castellan Garran Crowe
Luna Oscura University The Nightingales of Hades
1
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:decent changes but i think you can go further here. -remove a turret -buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.
And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.
Nerf Arties? oh look your corp is Deep Core Mining Inc. Typical Carebear here complaining about a Nado poping his retriever.
Mate all jokes aside, have you seen the rate of fire on arties, thats why they alpha so hard.
Now CCP Rise, why must you nerf these ships, more mass, less scan res, they are slow and squishy enough as it is |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
118
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:Will hardly change anything and surely will not help battleships
Won't have much effect on BS vs ABC at a small scale (although any decrease in mobility will help some), but it should have more an effect at a large scale where things like align time and sig radius (probe time) make ABC very very strong. |
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Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
4
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Looks ok, but I don't think the Talos needs the drones.
kind of agree, gives talos too much advantage over other attack bcs |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
118
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:they are slow and squishy enough as it is
Squishy, yes. Slow, no. As I said in the post, cruisers and frigs both put a lot of pressure on them, but they are still substantially faster than anything that rivals their damage projection. |
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Aethlyn
EVE University Ivy League
209
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sounds reasonable - expected worse. I still like my almost-instant-lock Tornado. Looking for more thoughts? Read http://aethlyn.blogspot.com/ or follow me on http://twitter.com/Aethlyn. |
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
5
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Castellan Garran Crowe wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:decent changes but i think you can go further here. -remove a turret -buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.
And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns. Nerf Arties? oh look your corp is Deep Core Mining Inc. Typical Carebear here complaining about a Nado poping his retriever. Mate all jokes aside, have you seen the rate of fire on arties, thats why they alpha so hard. Now CCP Rise, why must you nerf these ships, more mass, less scan res, they are slow and squishy enough as it is EDIT: Please bring back Torpedo Naga!!!
Don't forget that TEs will get serious balancing. This will affect Tornado. Yes alpha remains but you will get problems getting the same falloff and even alpha to long range. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Castellan Garran Crowe wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:decent changes but i think you can go further here. -remove a turret -buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.
And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns. Nerf Arties? oh look your corp is Deep Core Mining Inc. Typical Carebear here complaining about a Nado poping his retriever. Mate all jokes aside, have you seen the rate of fire on arties, thats why they alpha so hard. Now CCP Rise, why must you nerf these ships, more mass, less scan res, they are slow and squishy enough as it is EDIT: Please bring back Torpedo Naga!!!
lol this is an alt
although flying a falcon it can be popped in a few hits by a nado arty fit - just switch some alpha for ROF its seems odd that AC's are so ROF based but arties are opposite -missiles and lasers should really be more alpha based than projectiles and rails. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium |
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
178
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
It's hard to evaluate the precise impact of mass increases without having a modified fitting tool to hand, but at first glance these seem to be an extremely minor set of changes that won't have any noticeable effect on the current state of the metagame.
Also, I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about probe time, since anything on grid in a fight will be probed in a single cycle irrespective of its sig radius... |
Beaver Retriever
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:decent changes but i think you can go further here. -remove a turret -buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.
And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns. The whole point of introducing the tier 3 was to introduce a glass cannon. It is not odd that a Moa can out-tank a Naga, it's the way things should be. |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
42
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
I like the approach of balancing in smaller steps. These more subtle changes will hardly break the concept of any of those ships, nevertheless they will move the more towards a better balance.
Well, it means more work for the balancing team, but since you are two now... |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War Out of Sight.
1028
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Will hardly change anything and surely will not help battleships Won't have much effect on BS vs ABC at a small scale (although any decrease in mobility will help some), but it should have more an effect at a large scale where things like align time and sig radius (probe time) make ABC very very strong. Agreed, I'm almost always speaking from small and medium-scale perspective and I won't see any reason to avoid bringing attack battlecruisers to a roam.
Just make sure to re-iterate the whole attack BC vs battleship relationship after addressing the battleship class. Since any vessels sharing the same weaponry are almost bound to interfere each other.
I'm somewhat surprised that you're leaving Talos' drones intact, though. My campaign for CSM 8 |
Dysphonia Fera
Kaesong Kosmonauts
59
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
P sensible changes. Nice to see that the nerf isn't too strong or anything. I think the Naga's new align time might be slightly too big, but I'd need to play around with it a little once released to get an actual real world feel. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1397
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
@CCP Rise, I'm curious to see if you feel there is any need to bring the power levels on these down at all to make the other BC's more ....whats the word i'm looking for? Used?
Used doesn't feel right but its kind of in the spirit of what I'm looking for, as right now theres no real reason to use any other BC over the Talos except for not being trained enough to use its guns. |
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Dysphonia Fera
Kaesong Kosmonauts
59
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:It's hard to evaluate the precise impact of mass increases without having a modified fitting tool to hand, but at first glance these seem to be an extremely minor set of changes that won't have any noticeable effect on the current state of the metagame.
Also, I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about probe time, since anything on grid in a fight will be probed in a single cycle irrespective of its sig radius...
The main use of T3 BCs in eve right now is as sniper fleets - be they the only fleet or as a support fleet for a more "mainline" fleet doctrine. You fight aligned, warp out if stuff gets close, that kinda thing. With a good prober it makes T3 fleets that little bit easier to catch; still not particularly easy, but its far more doable if you align slower.
The sag radius and probes thing is silly, but as someone who has escaped by .1s from a frigate before, in those fringe cases it'll tip the balance a little. |
Malukker Ornulf
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote: And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.
This. Maybe not specific to ABC's but on Maelstroms they dominate BS v BS combat in large scale combat. They dominate everything from AHACS (if they have webs atlest) to tracking dreads. |
Mourning Souls
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
45
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
"slightly more vulnerable to probing, bombing, and being caught by tackle than they were."
Didn't think that was possible.
I don't like these changes, but I don't hate them. My only Odyssey issue so far is the TE nerf. |
Bobbechk
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
31
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
*CCP nerfs my ship to have 3km less falloff* -This will ruin small scale pvp forever
*CCP nerfs the agility and sig radius of tier3 bc hard* -This wont have any effect at all
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Tetsel
Heretic Army Atrocitas
67
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
SB+TE+Nado changes = "We don't want you to camp the gate" change... Twitter:-á-á-á-á@EVE_Tetsel-á-á-á@HereticArmy |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1397
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
You know bob, you know. |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
217
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Taken as a whole, it seems CCP want Odyssey to turn pvp into a one-dimensional armour brawl, since all the other fleet types are getting systematically nerfed.
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Bakuhz
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
8
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Changes are not to bad really still dont see real issues on them. Any ship that is used in large quantities are usually OP,
now slightly slower hmm not really needed frigates and destroyers are your nightmare in these ships and the fast cruisers aswell, Wich the talos is prepared for it with drones taking away drones i dont know maybe give them all atleast a set of scouts. wich will ruin the idea of these ships really they were designed for hit and run tactics its a ship born for guerilla warfare tactics fast damage on the field and quickly leave if not caught by a pesky frigate,
if people cry about they are to fast well counter fit your fleets to be able to shoot them down one by one while you tackle them.
about nerfing arties sorry dude high alpha by trading in extreme low rate of fire, besides calculating back to DPS the other ABC's will kill you faster or in about the same time waithing for another carebear excuse here :D
i must say the rebalance jobs are pretty good on a few minor things like the upcoming TE nerf will be able to work that out with a mid slot still.
about insta locking ships ships designed for it should do that like interceptors and HIC's and not a procurer or skiff with a insane amount of scan resolution they are for eating rock wich half the zombies do in eve bashing rocks and talk like they are epic with that resolution im stunned as my devoter cant pull that targeting speed at that rate, better fix that CCP TE's are good as they are Tweak the ships first before you nerf modules wich hit every ship out here!!!
now give me my hello kitty Manticore :P http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Bakuhz#kills |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1398
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:Taken as a whole, it seems CCP want Odyssey to turn pvp into a one-dimensional armour brawl, since all the other fleet types are getting systematically nerfed.
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
121
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
Grath, I'm not sure exactly what you mean about making room for the other BCs more. I feel like for the most part like combat BC have a very different role than attack BC, so one doesn't really tread hard on the other. Thats not always true, of course, but I wonder maybe what environment you're talking about and what sort of outcome you would be looking for? |
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