To get 2500isk to LP you would have to sell the CNR for over 1.5 billion isk.... Just using a big ticket item to show how some of these numbers people spit out make no sense.

Now yes at one time when there was far fewer LP falling out of the stars it was a bit more. But CNR even 5 years ago was selling less than a billion.

Where do you afk your ship? I have a supply of 1400mm apocs parked one jump from Narija. Was wondering how to get rid of it.

And it is clearly highsec incursion runners' fault that goons aren't willing to run sites, or that nullsec is sparsely populated. How about you make your space NRDS

CNR, veldspar under the sun of LP Store Items.
/facepalm
But thank you very much for actually selling CNR for less than 1000 isk per LP.

So, as I already said, incursions are not killing LP store profits. Some people are just mad that you can make too much isk running high sec incursions.

Let's make the issue clear.

Incorrect.

Incursions have 2 exchange rates: (I'll list all 3 options being as 1 "is not available")
Pirate or FW corp stores = no conversion.
One of the 4 primary Empire factions = 80% conversion.
Any of the "fringe" (SOE, etc..) factions = 40% conversion rate.

So numbers for highsec...

10 1/2 mill ISK and 1400 LP per site.

We'll use 6 VG's per hour so 63 million ISK + 8400 LP per hour.

2 hours run time = 126 million ISK + 16800 LP.

16800 * .8 = 13440 LP that can be spent at ANY primary empire corporate LP store in the game.

2 hours... Not too bad at all being as you didn't need to spend ANY time building corp standings doing lower level encounters to start earning decent LP at a given corporate store.

The flexibility of the CONCORD LP is far too much at such conversion rates. It lets someone with trivial standings have instant access to top of the line offerings with very little time and effort.

No - it's not just the isk per hour nor the CONCORD LP. It's the overall impact of the entire thing -- coupled primarily with the ability to FARM the sites. That composite is over the top.

Incorrect.

Incursions have 2 exchange rates: (I'll list all 3 options being as 1 "is not available")
Pirate or FW corp stores = no conversion.
One of the 4 primary Empire factions = 80% conversion.
Any of the "fringe" (SOE, etc..) factions = 40% conversion rate.

So numbers for highsec...

10 1/2 mill ISK and 1400 LP per site.

We'll use 6 VG's per hour so 63 million ISK + 8400 LP per hour.

2 hours run time = 126 million ISK + 16800 LP.

16800 * .8 = 13440 LP that can be spent at ANY primary empire corporate LP store in the game.

2 hours... Not too bad at all being as you didn't need to spend ANY time building corp standings doing lower level encounters to start earning decent LP at a given corporate store.

The flexibility of the CONCORD LP is far too much at such conversion rates. It lets someone with trivial standings have instant access to top of the line offerings with very little time and effort.

No - it's not just the isk per hour nor the CONCORD LP. It's the overall impact of the entire thing -- coupled primarily with the ability to FARM the sites. That composite is over the top.

2 hours... Not too bad at all being as you didn't need to spend ANY time building corp standings doing lower level encounters to start earning decent LP at a given corporate store.

The flexibility of the CONCORD LP is far too much at such conversion rates. It lets someone with trivial standings have instant access to top of the line offerings with very little time and effort.

No - it's not just the isk per hour nor the CONCORD LP. It's the overall impact of the entire thing -- coupled primarily with the ability to FARM the sites. That composite is over the top.

You talk about the "overall impact of the entire thing", but you don't look at the overall impact yourself.
You are taking a specific and closed example out, you need to par that as well the argument that

"Concord LP is killing off LP store profits" together with "how many incursion runners vs. how many mission runners."
Basically how much of the CONCORD LP spend in the LP stores (that are non-concord and come with loss) compared to how much Empire faction LP (from missions) is spend.

If you look at my previous post where I calculated the maximum possible Isk/hour for ALL highsec incursion runners at any given time (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=229653#post229653) we can use those numbers to calculate what the LP/hour rate is for CONCORD.

So let's assume 36 highsec vanguard fleets are running an average of 7 sites every hour generating:
36*10*1400*7 = 3.528.000 CONCORD LP.

Let's add a few assault and headquarter fleets.
6 assaults fleet (that's one in every assault system in 3 different incursions.
6*3500*20 = 420.000 CONCORD LP.

2(fleets)*2(sites pr. hour)*40(members)*7000 = 1.120.000 CONCORD LP.


So at the one of the most ideal incursion scenarios with the most fleets as we can imagine 5 million concord LP is being generated per hour.
The real average of an entire week is much, much lower than this.

Now what are your numbers of mission runners in highsec? And how much do they contribute to LP of their own factions?
Because keep in mind, not all CONCORD LP is being converted (with a loss !!) to other factions. A lot of it is being spend in the concord LP store and even more will be spend there when the destructible customs offices go online.

winge winge winge whine whine whine cry cry cry

Is this all you people do

So, as I already said, incursions are not killing LP store profits. Some people are just mad that you can make too much isk running high sec incursions.

Let's make the issue clear.

...13440 LP that can be spent at ANY primary empire corporate LP store in the game.

So, 13440 LP in 2 hours, thats what I get in a good day in 20 minutes with l4s Oo.
...But actually my favorite lp store items RAISE in price, and the raise alot, instead of getting cheaper. And they raise in price more than corrosponing tags are going up in price.
...Mission runners are nearly as flexible as incursion runners AND get based on your math way more lp per hour.

If you want to blaim incursions for market changes, try to blaim them for rising dogag prices, becaue here you would have a point.

If you've actually looked at contracts, Mocam, faction modules have gone up in price, not down.
This is probably due to incursioners blinging out all their whips. Ironically from your failed logic, Mocam, generally a crashed LP store would have faction mods drop in price due to over saturation (SUPPLY/DEMAND)... but as anyone who's been watching contract prices for hot modules can clearly see, those modules are rising in price. Meaning that the main market-changer is tags. Tags from missioners and ratters. Tags rising from pilots either transitioning from missions to incursions (which Josefine pointed out incs makes less LP than lvl4s, no standings gain), or pilots who are smart enough to follow tag supply/demand.

Honestly, the way I see it, just like CCP said, "[generally] working as intended," which to me is getting pilots out of their solo isk boat and into to group isk ships, meetinggreeting, and making use of the word teamwork to reach a greater audience. Again, Incursions are a socioeconomic catalyst for the better.

All you naysayers like to think Incursions are terrible for the economy, but the reality is just that you can't get past naysaying.

As far as I know we're still looking into gathering some numbers (meaning a request was filed with our awesome Research and Statistics crew, and I should follow it up!). The plan wasn't to look at LP though, but at the larger picture of overall mission and incursion completion rates. One goal behind Incursion was to get people out of their solo PvE mission runner mindset and into a group, dealing with more PvP-like scenarios (logistics, for one). Ideally, Incursions should compete with missions for income, mostly because they teach a player so much more than standalone missions ever can, and draw them into PvP much more effectively.

Tl;dr moral of the story is that the popularity and consequent economic impact of Incursions, if they're at the same time really moving people out of missions, is probably ultimately a better system than missions as the sole and primary income stream.

Keep in mind also that most of us make tons of raw isk income, many of us dont even look into selling that concord LP, you only do it if you are really tight on money (which is not often when you do incursions regularly)

If you are going to nerf concord LP, which i think you should, then simply make the 'exchange rate' into other LP slightly lower, like 0.7 instead of the current 0.8 but please be gentle with nerfind incursions, it certainly is a fragile matter considering that there are many many people who fly poor ships and join poor fleets, those are the guys who need the most lovin... the rich get richer, thats how its always been, only thing you can do is make sure that the market economy stays balanced by simply nerfind the exchange rate from concord LP into other kinds of LP

Personally i am up to about 8 million concord LP which I never have bothered to sell yet, its a time consuming thing. And it bothers me a little to know that probably the most profit I can get from that concord LP is if buy/sell from the Concord LP store as opposed to other LP stores. concord LP is about 2k/LP-3.5k/LP, other LP stores can mostly give you 1k/LP... so converting my concord LP into other wouldnt be very profitable, in fact not nearly as profitable as selling concord stuff

Oh another important matter is that alot of mission runners who have bad standing with amarr, sadly cant even try out doing incursions because they didnt know that accepting certain missions wont let you fly into other races space, having occasional incursion spawns in minni or gallente space doesnt really help much for newcomers to invest in incursions or even try them (people like investing into careers more often than to simply try something out, because once they get bored doing something, they go after the next best career they find). You guys need to either change that 'standings thing' or inform people not to accept those missions unless they want to be blocked from flying into amarr space (which is like 99% of all space lol)

If you've actually looked at contracts, Mocam, faction modules have gone up in price, not down.
This is probably due to incursioners blinging out all their whips. Ironically from your failed logic, Mocam, generally a crashed LP store would have faction mods drop in price due to over saturation (SUPPLY/DEMAND)... but as anyone who's been watching contract prices for hot modules can clearly see, those modules are rising in price. Meaning that the main market-changer is tags. Tags from missioners and ratters. Tags rising from pilots either transitioning from missions to incursions (which Josefine pointed out incs makes less LP than lvl4s, no standings gain), or pilots who are smart enough to follow tag supply/demand.

Honestly, the way I see it, just like CCP said, "[generally] working as intended," which to me is getting pilots out of their solo isk boat and into to group isk ships, meetinggreeting, and making use of the word teamwork to reach a greater audience. Again, Incursions are a socioeconomic catalyst for the better.

All you naysayers like to think Incursions are terrible for the economy, but the reality is just that you can't get past naysaying.

So, 13440 LP in 2 hours, thats what I get in a good day in 20 minutes with l4s Oo. On a bad day maybe 40. Furthermore people who complain about low lp value fail to understand that no incursion runner has to buy items with low conversion rates.

I make 8k LP per mission on the higher paying missions running level 4s and they take lets say 20 minutes on average. I can make way more LP running missions (even before the exchange rate).

If I were to run incursions pretty fast, lets say 10 sites per hour (it can be higher sometimes, but also lower often when you need to reform after losing people), thats only 14k LP in an entire hour.

Incursions are not even close to killing the LP store market.

It is tag prices that are killing the LP store markets.

if tags are "killing" the lp store then... do some anti faction missions or nag ccp to introduce an option to only do anti faction missions.

Well though it could be incursion LP. Like lots of easy LP, but not lots of easy tags. So people need more tags to match LP. More demand higher prices. Suppose CCP could add more anti faction but easy to repair, or increase amount of tags in a ship kill. That way easy tags with easy LP. Or they could just nerf incurions LP, then dont need easy tags as well then. And faction is still a ***** to repair.

if you think tags are killing the lp store you are sorely mistaken.

For many items it now costs more to buy the tags on the market for an LP store item than you would make in profit selling the item (completely ignoring the LP you would also be using).

Now please justify your statement given that information.

The problem is not that people have too much LP, it is that they don't have enough tags.