imo this is happening.
Concord lp should not be exhangable for empire at all.

also ccp should nerf high sec incursion rewards by 50% isk and lp.

Agree on all accounts.

However following this post, you will hear from a bunch of incursion pubbies who "risk" a lot in their terribly difficult high sec incursions and that the reward is just fine.

everyone knows there is HUGE amounts of nearly no risk in vanguards which is where the lp and isk come from.

I my self have done high sec incursions. 100+m isk an hour. lp to exchange even at 80% trade with any empire corp. was far too easy mind you my main is a 75m sp char.

the only time incursiosn have any sort of risk is in low sec and or null sec.

imo this is happening.
Concord lp should not be exhangable for empire at all.

also ccp should nerf high sec incursion rewards by 50% isk and lp.

everyone knows there is HUGE amounts of nearly no risk in vanguards which is where the lp and isk come from.

I my self have done high sec incursions. 100+m isk an hour. lp to exchange even at 80% trade with any empire corp. was far too easy mind you my main is a 75m sp char.

the only time incursiosn have any sort of risk is in low sec and or null sec.

Vanguards are easier, but you are understating the risk in incursions. There is risk in assaults and headquarter sites, and it takes a lot more coordination to run those. Not to mention having a live event open up on you.

Also where is it written that making 100 mil per hour in highsec is wrong? My alt in 0.0 easily exceeds that amount, and I know traders/builders in highsec that easily break 100 mil per hour played?

Lastly, lets say you get your wish. Lets say all rewards in highsec incursions are nerfed by a factor of 100. So that instead of getting 100 mil per hour, you were getting 1 mil. Remember that's a rate, and some hours you won't make that. Do you think people will run highsec incursions at all?

If it's so outlandish, everybody get a bling ship and run them. Earn this 100+ mil per hour that keeps getting quoted. Gangs form all the time in incursion zones, or better yet get a bunch of corpies and run them together (which is the purpose of an MMO), if everyone's making that income it's not outlandish, but simply the norm.

No, its still outlandish, the same way that lvl 4 missions were long considered (and still are by some) to provide way too high of isk/hr for high sec. Just because everyone's doing it, does not mean its okay...

This sounds like just the opposite of Carebear tears... *sob* those incursion runners aren't coming through my lowsec gate camp so I can't gank them *sob sob*. It's not fair that they can make so much in highsec.. It's just not fair I tell you!

I say make Vanguard incursions easier. They should be so easy, you can do it with small gangs of Velators armed with civ guns. Pay should be increased 100 fold. Crash the market of CN Ballistic mods and let that ***** market burn!

They need to decrease the risk of the game and make it more rewarding, cause it pisses one group of people off! If someone else gets mad, hey it means the other guy wins...amirite? U mad bros? Can't get your cheap ass cruisers to aggres smart people flying way over expensive ships once they know how to game the system and avoid the ones flipping cans then asking for repairs from logistics to pass on the aggression, just as much as you game it by hulk bashing a 200m ship with 20m worth of BC or aim for expensive mission ships (ever heard of a PVE fit ship winning? I haven't) cause the guy stupidly shot back at you after you baited with a vigil so you come tear assing back in a BC, T3, or T2 ship moaning like a **** star in climax of the killmail. Risk, Pfft! Its the aggressive side players whining at the passive side players, just as much as the passive side that whines about something being done to buff hulks, CONCORD, whatever!!!! and you just throw out some stupid response thats "Tears!" cause we are all a bunch of whiney hairless apes that cannot get along with anyone and hate the other guy from the choices of how he plays the game to the way he parts his hair that deserves a wardec over it!

Incursions are content that you have to be at the keyboard to complete - in that they're a clear improvement over missions/mining.

If you think rewards for them are too high, get a fleet together and finish the Moms as soon as they spawn - you can only make those 100mil isk per hour when an incursion is up, so if you keep the incursion community from farming them, problem solved.

whine

Uh uh!! I just found the golden egg.
Quoting soundwave here:

"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "

39 min. 00 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCf6pXHBFRM

In other words, rewards in incursions. Working as intended.

imo this is happening.
Concord lp should not be exhangable for empire at all.

also ccp should nerf high sec incursion rewards by 50% isk and lp.

Group PvE done decently pays as well or better than solo PvE done extraordinarily. Working as intended.

I don't do incursions, but I did a few live events, and there were MANY loses.

Are incursion in HS no risk? you can just afk them?

u mad bro?



Working as intended.

Making 100mil/hr from PvE in high sec is a bad thing. Why go to low sec for a bit more reward when you can have fat 100/hr risk free reward in high sec? There is already too little incentive to make money in low sec. Incursions just exacerbated that problem.

The biggest risk with high sec incursions is playing with people in the fleet you don't know.

There are many greifers that go to incursions, use the public incursion channel to invite them, and then get their fleet killed intentionally.
Or, they use the public incursion channel to try and get an invite.
*but they first have an alt/friend get aggro on them
*then they cap chain with the fleet and have the aggro spread.
*Then they bring in their gank squad.

or....

The logi's just suck

I once had my nightmare get down to 43% hull, despite having all my resists over 76% and 3 logi, because the logi were slow/didn't prioritize repairs/ had their head up their asses.

So.... incursions do carry risk, in that you will easily die if your other fleet members aren't competent, and they require the use of mechanics that can spread aggro*

*I think this mechanic needs to be fixed, a warning should pop up when you send cap/shield to someone who has an aggro timer, just like when you send to someone who is wardec'd.


I'm less worried about what it does to LP store profits, than what its doing to the value of ISK - massive inflation methinks

Goose99, you beat me to it!
Let me quote CCP again.

"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "

Uh uh!! I just found the golden egg.
Quoting soundwave here:

"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "

39 min. 00 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCf6pXHBFRM

In other words, rewards in incursions. Working as intended.
Vanguards being most popular, NOT working as intended. According to CCP statements.

And regarding with CCP. Yes, it has and still is troublesome especially in regards to the influence being so easily to remove from the incursion. I have stated this before and will do it again: A new highsec incursion will ONLY take 4 hours to get to 100 % influence and then be killed off.
It is far from ideal and this is why the community has established these agreements where pilots have agreed to hands off the mothership until a certain requirement is fulfilled (the game mechanics: Withdrawing of an Incursion).

What I would really like is for a dynamic incursion respawn algorithm. Just like the agreement has been dynamic and changing through time in regards to the population of the incursion community and unforseen factors I believe the algorithm for when an incursion is to spawn has to be dynamic and adapting as well.

Of course I am speaking blindly here since I have no knowledge of how this algorithm is set up or if it's not even automatic but manually by a GM.
If we could have the algorithm (or an algorithm) to accommodate for participants in an incursion, distance from popular trade hubs, etc. it would be less crowded and more comfortable to run incursions with your fleet.
Example given. The player population (amount online) varies from month to month in regards to vacations, holidays etc. If we could include a variable for participants in an incursion to trigger another one elsewhere it would be possible to lessen the strain in one constellation to others and thereby allow for more players and even younger players to participate and have a share of the cake.

We would actually need some numbers to determine if this is the case.

Tl;dr moral of the story is that the popularity and consequent economic impact of Incursions, if they're at the same time really moving people out of missions, is probably ultimately a better system than missions as the sole and primary income stream.

As far as I know we're still looking into gathering some numbers (meaning a request was filed with our awesome Research and Statistics crew, and I should follow it up!). The plan wasn't to look at LP though, but at the larger picture of overall mission and incursion completion rates. One goal behind Incursion was to get people out of their solo PvE mission runner mindset and into a group, dealing with more PvP-like scenarios (logistics, for one). Ideally, Incursions should compete with missions for income, mostly because they teach a player so much more than standalone missions ever can, and draw them into PvP much more effectively.

Tl;dr moral of the story is that the popularity and consequent economic impact of Incursions, if they're at the same time really moving people out of missions, is probably ultimately a better system than missions as the sole and primary income stream.

To the above Mocam,

Goose unfortunately took my words out of context as well. This is the full quote.





Large group rewards being 20/40/80. I don't recall ANY PVE in eve being that large. C6 sites are inbetween vanguards and assaults.
I don't understand your "competitive PVP failure here"? PvP isn't something you come across every day in highsec incursions, but they do exist in form of wardecs, aggro mechanism, kill rights and ganking ships.
However PVP in Lowsec incursion constellation you will find every day, and even better. Without all the annoying capital deployment. :D Subcap pvp ftw!!

Being completed too fast is the reason we've established the agreements in highsec so everyone, anywhere at anytime in New Eden have the opportunity to come join us and kick Sansha-ass with us.
Again it is also a very logical move for almost everyone, there's an incentive to keep the incursions up. However much I dislike this it is the only possibility currently for incursions to last more than 4-6 hours.... (except pocket incursions that might be able to last a day if it's the only existing highsec incursion).

I'd much rather see CCP implement a dynamic influence gain like I've discussed earlier in general discussions forum. An intelligent one that doesn't just remain static throughout the entire week, but perhaps is a bit tougher to get to 100 % in the weekend, while being easier to pump up in the weekdays. Also hopefully one that would rise slowly in the timeperiod of let's say 2 days or so.

Whats your feeling on 100mil/hr isk rates in high sec?

...
- I do think the farming of them needs to be prevented in highsec. (low/null = ok - risks involved)
- I think that the higher level incursions could use a buff to encourage more participation in those. (LARGE scale PvE)

What about limiting the number of each incursion site type that a party could participate in during a 24 hour period. That might cause people to farm up the chain, that is, run their limit of vanguards then move to larger types. It would also let some of the 'lower level' players get into the game rather than being shut out, as some have argued they are now.

Dons asbestos.

Working as intended. Learn to read.

As far as I know we're still looking into gathering some numbers (meaning a request was filed with our awesome Research and Statistics crew, and I should follow it up!). The plan wasn't to look at LP though, but at the larger picture of overall mission and incursion completion rates. One goal behind Incursion was to get people out of their solo PvE mission runner mindset and into a group, dealing with more PvP-like scenarios (logistics, for one). Ideally, Incursions should compete with missions for income, mostly because they teach a player so much more than standalone missions ever can, and draw them into PvP much more effectively.

Tl;dr moral of the story is that the popularity and consequent economic impact of Incursions, if they're at the same time really moving people out of missions, is probably ultimately a better system than missions as the sole and primary income stream.

Know what it's like to go through a video for over an hour pulling time marks and bullets from it to have it removed as off-topic? lol -- teaches me for replying to a "working as intended" snippet...

Stop trying to force my mindset in any direction has CCP not learned yet? I see at least 15k less players online after the last year or so of "get people out of thier mindset".

What part of open ended game has not made sense to CCP devs yet? I don't want you pushing me in any direction and if you think you will by nerfing missions or some other aspect of "mindset control" well I have played since beta but really the force thing is really pissing me off and rather tired of it. You try to create incentive but use a bat on other players to force them down a road you think should be fun. I don't group at all in Eve and most likely will not anytime soon outside of a Corp.

As far as I know we're still looking into gathering some numbers (meaning a request was filed with our awesome Research and Statistics crew, and I should follow it up!). The plan wasn't to look at LP though, but at the larger picture of overall mission and incursion completion rates. One goal behind Incursion was to get people out of their solo PvE mission runner mindset and into a group, dealing with more PvP-like scenarios (logistics, for one). Ideally, Incursions should compete with missions for income, mostly because they teach a player so much more than standalone missions ever can, and draw them into PvP much more effectively.

Tl;dr moral of the story is that the popularity and consequent economic impact of Incursions, if they're at the same time really moving people out of missions, is probably ultimately a better system than missions as the sole and primary income stream.

What should be nerfed first of all is moon goo, when that is nerfed, come again.

As far as I know we're still looking into gathering some numbers (meaning a request was filed with our awesome Research and Statistics crew, and I should follow it up!). The plan wasn't to look at LP though, but at the larger picture of overall mission and incursion completion rates. One goal behind Incursion was to get people out of their solo PvE mission runner mindset and into a group, dealing with more PvP-like scenarios (logistics, for one). Ideally, Incursions should compete with missions for income, mostly because they teach a player so much more than standalone missions ever can, and draw them into PvP much more effectively.

Tl;dr moral of the story is that the popularity and consequent economic impact of Incursions, if they're at the same time really moving people out of missions, is probably ultimately a better system than missions as the sole and primary income stream.

Where is the risk when your alliance leaders moon mine huge amounts of moon materials, which most of them keep for themselves and have you as meat shield to protect them? No risk at all, even if someone decides to try to take it, it would take maybe even a month to push one alliance out, not to mention huge amount of people to back him up days and nights with expensive ships....
Cant really see the risk, and how easy this risk materializes, and thats why we see all those numerous titans and motherships like they are t1 cruisers.... because the amount of isk generated in 0.0 is immense.
Did i mention that its almost afk money? minus a couple of times per week to fuel.... CCP even gave you JF to make fueling even easier so your leaders can generate even more without risk. Didnt see YOU complain about that.
On top of that you are in 0.0 you have upgraded systems with numerous plexes and sites and anomalies and even belt rats that you can do ALONE without the help of anyone and get all the isk for yourself, and im not mentioning the chance to get very expensive deadspace and officer mods....
Btw low sec incursions have way bigger risk than your 0.0 ones, that you do with 0.0000000000001% risk instead of 0%. Your alliance owns the space you have local and you can just wrp out when you see hostiles, and continue afterwards, where is the risk in that?....... plus full 100% rewards instead of 75% in empire.

No you dont complain about all those things, you complain because you did incursions and you realize that you cant make so much money from lp store rewards that you expected...... So you ask CCP to just nerf high sec ones so you can make more money.
You are in 0.0 you have so many advantages and so many choices to make huge money yet you whine about a way that affects empire.....

Get your facts right ignorant.

What should be nerfed first of all is moon goo, when that is nerfed, come again.

Why do I think a larger percent of mission runners are pvpers than the percent of incursion runners? Becasue although I'm sure the incursion ai is nice, it is not likely as fun as pvp. So if someone is going to have the time to find an incursion and wait for a fleet to form they will also have the time to get in a pvp fleet.

Yeah I want higher T2 prices too.

Nice try pubbie.

There is no risk in PvE, at least not from NPCs. Given its high sec, there is no risk.

Agree on all accounts.

However following this post, you will hear from a bunch of incursion pubbies who "risk" a lot in their terribly difficult high sec incursions and that the reward is just fine.

IF you cut them by 50% you cut them below l4s. Which leads to anothe can of worms, l4s should be cut by at least 25% at the same time.

Im not exactly sure why you are cutting Isk production from incursions and from L4 missions,

is it to try to force people to get out to 0.0?
lowsec?

something about risk vs rewards?

You're so wrong.
I just asked in fleet (incursion) how many of them PVP'ed. Out of the 11 active in fleet, 9 of them PVP.

Just because one incursion fleet had people who pvp doesn't mean I'm wrong. Also did you see their kill boards?

Incursions are more of full-time deal that you use your main for as opposed to a part time alt activity

Yet again this thread is simply 0.0 nomads moaning about how much empire people earn.

They're simply jealous that there -10 sec status stops them from running them.

I think a lot of people are missing the details. Most of the groups that farm vanguards are then taking that money and using it to fund low sec pvp. Have we forgotten the "useless, empty, nothing to shoot" low sec?

More importantly, high sec income isn't really the same as null sec income (disregarding numbers entirely) High sec income is gained without the backing of an alliance, also meaning that they have no goal to farm isk for.. In null, you immediately flop any made money into the war chest for your next campaign.

It really shouldn't matter what people make in high sec, because those aren't the same people that you're about to go up against for control of the region.. Point being, the inflated high sec isk carebears aren't causing an unfair advantage for those that make isk in null.

More importantly, high sec income isn't really the same as null sec income (disregarding numbers entirely) High sec income is gained without the backing of an alliance, also meaning that they have no goal to farm isk for.. In null, you immediately flop any made money into the war chest for your next campaign.

they farm isk for faction mods, officer mods.

incursion should be nerf around 25%~30%, make it balance on risk vs reward scale

Oh trust me. I know the general picture. I've been doing incursions for the past 9 months and I would know a thing or two about the people who do them and they are from ALL over New Eden.
Every single pilot you can imagine, wormholers, missioners, miners, pirates, griefers, nullsec, general traders, manufacturers and many more I have met in incursions.

Here you go: http://kb.eve-incursions.net/
That is the incursion runners killboard. Do missioners have a killboard like that? I doubt it.

I don't know what that board is. How many people are posting to that board and for how long?
72 kills 1 loss? Looks like they really play it safe.

Yes you will see all sorts doing incursions the first year it is out. People will check it out. But I suspect in the long run, incursions will be hardcore pve for hard core pvers.

Just because one incursion fleet had people who pvp doesn't mean I'm wrong. Also did you see their kill boards?

Incursions are more of full-time deal that you use your main for as opposed to a part time alt activity

I don't know what that board is. How many people are posting to that board and for how long?
72 kills 1 loss? Looks like they really play it safe.

Yes you will see all sorts doing incursions the first year it is out. People will check it out. But I suspect in the long run, incursions will be hardcore pve for hard core pvers.

imo this is happening.
Concord lp should not be exhangable for empire at all.

also ccp should nerf high sec incursion rewards by 50% isk and lp.

It really shouldn't matter what people make in high sec, because those aren't the same people that you're about to go up against for control of the region.. Point being, the inflated high sec isk carebears aren't causing an unfair advantage for those that make isk in null.

A lot of those nullsec pvp'ers who had alts doing missions to earn their ISK for ships etc. are doing incursions now instead to fund their PVP. Both nullsec, lowsec, wspace and highsec (wars).

Incursions are more of full-time deal that you use your main for as opposed to a part time alt activity

[quote=Ammzi]
There is still risk: EVE proxies lag, networks get split, modems fail, computers overheat, EVE crashes, logistics pilots disconnect at inopportune moments. The stress is lower though, since one isn't constantly spamming D-scan, or having to keep an eye on intel channels, or worrying about whether one is going to be on the giving or receiving end of lag magic in the next fleet fight.

anyone in eve universe faces the risk of dcing, you should stop using it as a excuse.

I lost a NM due to dcing, it's not a risk. the risk is farming anom and don't know when, who will drop on you.

When null/low sec corps do high sec incursions it shows there is something wrong with the the risk vs reward balance. Same with lvl4 missions.

The fact is ... L4 missions are booring same old same old over and over again with absolutely no variation. In incursion you bring more dangerous AI and add the most dangerous part of all ... more players, into the mix.

What better way is there to make people enjoy the pve (mandatory isk-grind for pvp or other purposes) side of the game ? Incursions offer risk and decent isk gain for it, highsec or not there still is that risk. Tons of griefers around wanting to get a piece from from the multibillion isk ships your required to run efficient fleets with. Waiting for a fleet can be a pain sometimes, then you have the highsec competition for the VG sites.

Most importantly you have to take additional risk of other people in a game dedicated for being a backstabbing scumbag. Still id gladly do it, afterall this is an MMO and fleet action prevails allways over sologrinding in terms of enjoyability.

Nerfing incursions would just break them and drive people back to do L4s as their mandatory isk-grind. Such a shame that would be.

The way to make them better would be to actually BUFF the assaults and HQ sites so that they would offer higher rewards then VGs since obviously with more people in the fleet more enemy dps in the field the risks multiply. Ships get blown up but people would be risking it for the higher gain. Assaults and HQs allso take more time to complete so just finetune the reward vs fleet&site size ratio abit and it should be even better.

Nerfing the VG sites would just make them useless as entry level incursions for people to do.

As far as I know we're still looking into gathering some numbers (meaning a request was filed with our awesome Research and Statistics crew, and I should follow it up!). The plan wasn't to look at LP though, but at the larger picture of overall mission and incursion completion rates. One goal behind Incursion was to get people out of their solo PvE mission runner mindset and into a group, dealing with more PvP-like scenarios (logistics, for one). Ideally, Incursions should compete with missions for income, mostly because they teach a player so much more than standalone missions ever can, and draw them into PvP much more effectively.

Tl;dr moral of the story is that the popularity and consequent economic impact of Incursions, if they're at the same time really moving people out of missions, is probably ultimately a better system than missions as the sole and primary income stream.

1) Incursions should be for LARGE scale PvE. Scaling up value to effort/risks.

Incursion break outs:
Scout = Level 1's
Vanguards = Level 2's
Assault = Level 3's
HQ = Level 4's.

tbh, I don't think incursioners would go to pvp with anything more than 50m, too scared to lose the ship.

And yes, incursion need to be adjusted on the scale of risk vs reward.

Last thing, DONT fly shiny ship if you dont want to get ganked in HISEC.

not so much in everywhere else, no matter what pve ships you fly, you will eventually lose it, that's the real risk vs reward scale.

tbh, I don't think incursioners would go to pvp with anything more than 50m, too scared to lose the ship.

Why are you comparing incursions to missions? Cause it's not the same, at all.
And that comparison is wrong as well mate.

Here's a little something for anyone saying "incursions are safe"

All these kills, incursion pilots. Screwed and griefed. a

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=reddragon54304

Because they do break apart in levels and whereas you have 1 loss mail - daily there are mission runners losing ships to PvP across sec levels. They are NO more dangerous than doing missions.

I don't know what that board is. How many people are posting to that board and for how long?
72 kills 1 loss? Looks like they really play it safe.

Yes you will see all sorts doing incursions the first year it is out. People will check it out. But I suspect in the long run, incursions will be hardcore pve for hard core pvers.

If you even look at the top kill on the board it happends in 0.2 space so what that has to do with high sec Incursions is beyond me.

Now that people have had a taste of the good isk from incursions I think it is time to move it off to low sec only with the lvl5s. If they have some balls they will continue doing them in low sec. If not, well go back to lvl4s.

If not then move lvl5s back to high sec and unnerf anomalies. so people can make a steady 100mil isk per hour in 0.0 without having access to the best true sec.

Atm I am very tempted to grind up my sec status so I can do high sec incursions. I do lvl5s and it just isn't worth the risk when I could easily make similar isk per hour in the safety of high sec(and I wouldn't have to triple box to do it!!).

^this, show yourself has balls by doing incursion in low, take the risk like L5s runners, wh dweller and nullsec dweller

So then shouldn't null/low sec players be fairly rewarded for the coordination and teamwork they put in to hold sov, deter enemy pirates etc? I wish I can have tech moons without having to fight for them. Sounds as silly to me as giving people access to such high income in high sec without having fight for it.

Hi, my name is Ammzi.
I've come here to ask you if you have ever heard about nullsec incursions?
You know ... those that give 100 % reward instead of 60 % reward in highsec, practically doubling the reward compared to highsec?

The easiest fix for Incursions would just be to increase their difficulty. Best example are HQ sites like Ouroboros that you can run with 8 Logis and 10-15 DPS and you don''t even get full rewards because minimum fleet size for max rewards is like 40. Also having run Vanguards on different characters it think its to easy to sigtank them, given that a lot of their dps comes from SB style hulls.

Basic problem is also, that the resistance penalties are to quickly reduced by completing sites. Another problem with the risk vs reward of nullsec/lowsec vs highsec is that you don't have guaranteed clear out of the final site. If that doesn't happen you risk having more ISK but offsetting that by getting no LPs. Also its way to easy to draw fire on specific ships, especially in larger sites (i've probably tanked 50 % of the Lirsautton bomber waves in the ouroburos sites i've run). We didn't use that weakness of the AI since my ship was one of the thinner tanked ships on the field but its certainly possible to make those sites even easier by cheesing on that part. Another problem of the design is that the payout is mostly fast and rdy cash instead of LPs which is only the icing on the cake for most of the incursion runners.

To summarize my ideas of an adjustment for incursions:

1. Shift rewards more to LPs (and probably do a 50/50 split for lp payout, 50 % for site completion, 50 % for incursion completion)
2. Make certain sites less susceptible to sig/speedtanking
3. Improve AI
4. Reduce the required fleetsizes for all sites by about 20- 30 % (would also reduce the speed at which sites could be blitzed due to having less dps) - problem is that it requires even more logi pilots which are already the bottleneck
5. reduce the speed at which the resistance penalties drop.

To be honest I don't see the problem and I'm happy that the worth of LPs are declining due to the massive injection of LP through Incursions and Mission Blitzing.

The one's who suffer are the mission blitzers, who's primary source of income was the LP they were receiving while running their L4s as fast as possible. More LP in the system means oversupply of LP store items, which is pushing their price down, which leads to those items being used more often. I think that's great. The smart (aka patient) incursion runners are hoarding their concord LP anyway to buy player owned custom offices BPCs soon.

For people who are complaining that the Insignia's are getting to expensive, your solution is simple: Get your own. If that means you are crushing your empire standings, fair enough that's your price for it. If you are blitzing missions and that's all you want to do, fair enough. Destroy your Amarr standing if all you want to do is running for Vir Honn. Nothing broken in my eyes.

Win win situation.

True on the Ouroburos fleet size. Still we did it more often than not with less than those 30 due to not having more pilots online and compensated that by having an alt armada sitting at the accelleration gate in t1 frigs and stuff. And its still very manageable. If you run it with 50, you're almost bruteforcing it, especially with a frontloaded shield repping logi gang where the bomber alpha is way less a problem.

I know that increasing LP vs reducing isk is a nerf. And i think its needed cause the isk faucet on incursions is pretty much the same as on sanctums which got the latter nerfed.

Regarding the AI: no, the AI is very predictable once you're staying in the site a bit longer. In fact there are a lot of ways to get almost snap aggro on the stuff if you exploit the way sleepers/sanshas prioritize their targets. I'm not going to tell you exactly how, but i think i dropped enough hints how to do it (and as far as i know there are incursion fleets that use the same principles in HQ sites already).
Also reducing the fleet size (both max and minimum) by 20 % is not dumping on the idea, merely adjusting on the risk vs reward vs timesink side. Granted, its not a perfect solution (given that it would increase the competition for sites and logi pilots) but otoh you have to admit that risk vs reward isn't perfect atm given people farm vanguard and assault sites rather than hqs. If the balacing would be perfect it should be like HQ > Assaults > Vanguards simply because HQs require the highest amount of organization and effort. You will probably all agree that most players do it exactly the other way round, because vanguards are both easier to run and more profitable, only limited by the amount of competition. Which is the reason assaults are getting run at all (and thats only true in highsec, in lowsec incursions people only farm vanguards).
So a reduction of a vanguard fleet to 8 persons would still need teamwork, actually more of it because sites get more difficult. Or people can agree that they are willing to take a small payout hit by running sites faster in a slightly larger group.

Don't get me wrong, i think that incursions are generally a good feature and should be rewarded higher than l4s in hs. Same applies to the comparison between nullsec anomalies and nullsec incursions. But even the often quoted Soundwave rather recently stated on Eve Vegas that the balancing between the different tiers of sites needs an adjustment. And at least in my personal experience as well as from talking to a lot of other people i feel that especially assault/vanguard running in highsec is a bit over the top atm, especially given the fact that all other ways of npcing have taken a hit (either by the flood of lps on the market or by nerfing nullsec anomalies).

Whatever is happening, there definately is an imbalance in the amount of ISK is being farmed. All you have to do is look at the PLEX charts and you can see there definately has been some decent infaltion going on recently.

Highsec incursions are limited to at most 3 constellations, with 3-4 vanguard systems, supporting at most 3 or 4 dozen people each running at the same time time. The amount of LP and isk gain is a drop in the ocean when compared to missioning or sanctums/ratting. You might as well claim an ant can move a mountain.

Why would you bother doing null sec missions when you can make more doing high sec incursions without having to worry about get camped in station, probes, etc etc?

Why would you bother doing HIGH sec incursions when you can make more doing null sec incursions without having to worry about getting hot dropped?

I was working out how much I can make in NULLSEC incursions today...

171 mil in bounties per hour
almost 13k lp per hour which converts at about 3k isk per LP (69mil)
= 240mil per hour in the safety of my null sec alliance space and the majority of it is in liquid isk...pretty ridiculous when you don't have to care about getting cynoned on, afk cloakers, roaming gangs, etc (all the usual null stuff) or hordes of pirates with a hard on for pvers (in low sec).

Ah well, I'll exploit it till they nerf it.

Why would you bother doing null sec missions when you can make more doing high sec incursions without having to worry about get camped in station, probes, etc etc?

I was working out how much I can make in incursions today...

120mil in bounties per hour
almost 14k lp per hour which converts at about 3k isk per LP (42mil)
= 162mil per hour in the safety of high sec and the majority of it is in liquid isk...pretty ridiculous when you don't have to care about getting cynoned on, afk cloakers, roaming gangs, etc (all the usual null stuff) or hordes of pirates with a hard on for pvers (in low sec).

Ah well, I'll exploit it till they nerf it.

Fixed your post.

And what exactly is this mythical item that sells for 3K lp ?

if you include all the time you spend waiting for an incursion to show up in friendly space you make about 13k per hour...

if you include all the time you spend waiting for an incursion to show up in friendly space you make about 13k per hour...

Fixed your post.

grow a brain then we can talk ok?

Yes, you must wait for an incursion to show up deep within the blue ass of a large alliance, where you don't see hostiles for weeks on end. Lowsec and npc null is clearly too unsafe for whiny nullbear.

Conversely, in highsec, you just AFK your ship to the incursion constellation without having to worry about the locals, and have a large and active community of people looking to run sites on tap; near-instant access and no hassle.

Safety has nothing to do with it; the key points are practicality and convenience. It can take several weeks for an incursion to spawn in a nearby area of lowsec/NPC 0.0, and even if one spawns, you'd need a dedicated group of incursion-running people within your corp/alliance to take advantage of one. To put that last point into perspective, the TEST/goon lowsec incursion groups tend not to attract more than 30-odd guys, from a coaltion of multiple tens of thousands; organizing a fleet from within a smaller corp/alliance is much more challenging. Conversely, in highsec, you just AFK your ship to the incursion constellation without having to worry about the locals, and have a large and active community of people looking to run sites on tap; near-instant access and no hassle.

Where do you afk your ship? I have a supply of 1400mm apocs parked one jump from Narija. Was wondering how to get rid of it.

And it is clearly highsec incursion runners' fault that goons aren't willing to run sites, or that nullsec is sparsely populated. How about you make your space NRDS

if you include all the time you spend waiting for an incursion to show up in friendly space you make about 13k per hour...

Therein lies the problem. Incursions themselves are balanced just fine, it's the inability to summon them in space you own that's the problem. Also ammzi's numbers are a tad conservative IMO, a fleet of zealots/t3s can clear an NCO in 3 minutes, and without the hundreds of people competing for sites you could definitely run them non-stop for at least a good few hours, pulling in a good 250-300 an hour, before factoring in LP.

"Summoning" full payment incursions into backwater systems tucked deep inside the blue ass of large alliance where you don't see hostiles for weeks on end, for the sole purpose of private farming and harvest of mom bpc at the end... This is sov null whiner's idea of "fairness." Anything else is clearly unfair, and will prompt drama + whine, the chief export of sov null aside from moon goo.

Better yet, make incursions into free afk gold, just like moon goo.

Safety has nothing to do with it; the key points are practicality and convenience. It can take several weeks for an incursion to spawn in a nearby area of lowsec/NPC 0.0, and even if one spawns, you'd need a dedicated group of incursion-running people within your corp/alliance to take advantage of one. To put that last point into perspective, the TEST/goon lowsec incursion groups tend not to attract more than 30-odd guys, from a coaltion of multiple tens of thousands; organizing a fleet from within a smaller corp/alliance is much more challenging. Conversely, in highsec, you just AFK your ship to the incursion constellation without having to worry about the locals, and have a large and active community of people looking to run sites on tap; near-instant access and no hassle.

You're also saying that BECAUSE highsec pilots care to actually put in effort to organize large channels and communities THEY should be punished/nerfed because they are actually putting some hard work into it.
Why? Well because nullsec bears who can't be freaking arsed to set up an operation out of their multi-thousand player alliance/blues to go and earn almost double of what highsec incursion runners are earning.
Right, nerf somebody else so you don't feel so bad? Why should I be surprised? That's how EVE seems to work anyway.

Right, who doesn't AFK pilot their multibillion faction battleship/t3 20-30 jumps in highsec for an incursion? I mean it's not like some silly gang of battleships are gonna gank you in a 0.5 system to get all your juicy loot while your hardeners are off and you have **** defense... right?
If you think that was too sarcastic well then cry me a river.

You're also saying that BECAUSE highsec pilots care to actually put in effort to organize large channels and communities THEY should be punished/nerfed because they are actually putting some hard work into it.
Why? Well because nullsec bears who can't be freaking arsed to set up an operation out of their multi-thousand player alliance/blues to go and earn almost double of what highsec incursion runners are earning.
Right, nerf somebody else so you don't feel so bad? Why should I be surprised? That's how EVE seems to work anyway.

why would I tell you?

Therein lies the problem. Incursions themselves are balanced just fine, it's the inability to summon them in space you own that's the problem. Also ammzi's numbers are a tad conservative IMO, a fleet of zealots/t3s can clear an NCO in 3 minutes, and without the hundreds of people competing for sites you could definitely run them non-stop for at least a good few hours, pulling in a good 250-300 an hour, before factoring in LP.

And no, I'm not saying highsec pilots should be punished, I'm saying it's silly to point to the 50% greater payouts of low/nullsec incursions as a justification for highsec payouts while ignoring the orders-of-magnitude difference in convenience and accessibility of the two. As it happens, I do think highsec VGs should be nerfed - they've more or less become the de facto standard against which other means of earning individual income by shooting red crosses are compared, and are sufficiently lucrative to have drawn people away from alternative activities in lowsec, 0.0, and W-space. I think that's pretty daft, but that's not going to keep me from abusing it while it lasts.

Fact is, Mission runners can sit in their little bubble all day, running lvl 4's with 2-3 accounts spinning themselves a nice amount of isk.

They don't depend on anyone else, they have no major risk to their ships and they certainly have no worries of griefers. (unless they are stupid enough to shoot on a ninja looter)

Incursion runners, such as myself have to worry about all of these things, they have to take calculated risks and put trust in other people. They have to work together in order to remain alive, never mind efficient at making isk.

If a mission runner is having a bad day it's because he got some **** loot in his missions or his agent is giving him crap.

I've lost over 10 billion isk worth in a blink of an eye on more than one occasion in incursions so don't you dare say there's no risk cos I will perma-dec your mission running *** ass and show you real isk at the end of my 1400's!

Incursion runners, such as myself have to worry about all of these things, they have to take calculated risks and put trust in other people. They have to work together in order to remain alive, never mind efficient at making isk.

...

I've lost over 10 billion isk worth in a blink of an eye on more than one occasion in incursions so don't you dare say there's no risk cos I will perma-dec your mission running *** ass and show you real isk at the end of my 1400's!

There is no meaningful risk whatsoever in highsec incursion-running; if you somehow managed to lose 10b in them, you're ... a very special person. Congratulations!

So the argument is no longer that incursions are killing LP stores, but that people are whining that high sec incursions generate too much isk? Got it.

You missed the point. It's that certain retards cannot get fleet invite with their failfits, and is butthurt about it, thus they came to the forums to troll about it. "Too much isk" only applies when they can't earn it.

My 10bill isk grief/loss was replaced in a matter of days, cos that's how I role

I've actually started doing more Assault sites, and less of the VG grinding. It's more enjoyable and a more relaxed pace, less rushing into sites because you're competing against half a dozen fleets in one system. even if the isk/hour ratio is a bit slower.

My 10bill isk grief/loss was replaced in a matter of days, cos that's how I role

I've actually started doing more Assault sites, and less of the VG grinding. It's more enjoyable and a more relaxed pace, less rushing into sites because you're competing against half a dozen fleets in one system. even if the isk/hour ratio is a bit slower.

It's more enjoyable and a more relaxed pace, less rushing into sites because you're competing against half a dozen fleets in one system. even if the isk/hour ratio is a bit slower.

3000 isk per LP

BWAHAHAHAHAHA that is some funny ******* ****.

To get 2500isk to LP you would have to sell the CNR for over 1.5 billion isk.... Just using a big ticket item to show how some of these numbers people spit out make no sense.

Now yes at one time when there was far fewer LP falling out of the stars it was a bit more. But CNR even 5 years ago was selling less than a billion.

Where do you afk your ship? I have a supply of 1400mm apocs parked one jump from Narija. Was wondering how to get rid of it.

And it is clearly highsec incursion runners' fault that goons aren't willing to run sites, or that nullsec is sparsely populated. How about you make your space NRDS

CNR, veldspar under the sun of LP Store Items.
/facepalm
But thank you very much for actually selling CNR for less than 1000 isk per LP.

So, as I already said, incursions are not killing LP store profits. Some people are just mad that you can make too much isk running high sec incursions.

Let's make the issue clear.

Incorrect.

Incursions have 2 exchange rates: (I'll list all 3 options being as 1 "is not available")
Pirate or FW corp stores = no conversion.
One of the 4 primary Empire factions = 80% conversion.
Any of the "fringe" (SOE, etc..) factions = 40% conversion rate.

So numbers for highsec...

10 1/2 mill ISK and 1400 LP per site.

We'll use 6 VG's per hour so 63 million ISK + 8400 LP per hour.

2 hours run time = 126 million ISK + 16800 LP.

16800 * .8 = 13440 LP that can be spent at ANY primary empire corporate LP store in the game.

2 hours... Not too bad at all being as you didn't need to spend ANY time building corp standings doing lower level encounters to start earning decent LP at a given corporate store.

The flexibility of the CONCORD LP is far too much at such conversion rates. It lets someone with trivial standings have instant access to top of the line offerings with very little time and effort.

No - it's not just the isk per hour nor the CONCORD LP. It's the overall impact of the entire thing -- coupled primarily with the ability to FARM the sites. That composite is over the top.

Incorrect.

Incursions have 2 exchange rates: (I'll list all 3 options being as 1 "is not available")
Pirate or FW corp stores = no conversion.
One of the 4 primary Empire factions = 80% conversion.
Any of the "fringe" (SOE, etc..) factions = 40% conversion rate.

So numbers for highsec...

10 1/2 mill ISK and 1400 LP per site.

We'll use 6 VG's per hour so 63 million ISK + 8400 LP per hour.

2 hours run time = 126 million ISK + 16800 LP.

16800 * .8 = 13440 LP that can be spent at ANY primary empire corporate LP store in the game.

2 hours... Not too bad at all being as you didn't need to spend ANY time building corp standings doing lower level encounters to start earning decent LP at a given corporate store.

The flexibility of the CONCORD LP is far too much at such conversion rates. It lets someone with trivial standings have instant access to top of the line offerings with very little time and effort.

No - it's not just the isk per hour nor the CONCORD LP. It's the overall impact of the entire thing -- coupled primarily with the ability to FARM the sites. That composite is over the top.

2 hours... Not too bad at all being as you didn't need to spend ANY time building corp standings doing lower level encounters to start earning decent LP at a given corporate store.

The flexibility of the CONCORD LP is far too much at such conversion rates. It lets someone with trivial standings have instant access to top of the line offerings with very little time and effort.

No - it's not just the isk per hour nor the CONCORD LP. It's the overall impact of the entire thing -- coupled primarily with the ability to FARM the sites. That composite is over the top.

You talk about the "overall impact of the entire thing", but you don't look at the overall impact yourself.
You are taking a specific and closed example out, you need to par that as well the argument that

"Concord LP is killing off LP store profits" together with "how many incursion runners vs. how many mission runners."
Basically how much of the CONCORD LP spend in the LP stores (that are non-concord and come with loss) compared to how much Empire faction LP (from missions) is spend.

If you look at my previous post where I calculated the maximum possible Isk/hour for ALL highsec incursion runners at any given time (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=229653#post229653) we can use those numbers to calculate what the LP/hour rate is for CONCORD.

So let's assume 36 highsec vanguard fleets are running an average of 7 sites every hour generating:
36*10*1400*7 = 3.528.000 CONCORD LP.

Let's add a few assault and headquarter fleets.
6 assaults fleet (that's one in every assault system in 3 different incursions.
6*3500*20 = 420.000 CONCORD LP.

2(fleets)*2(sites pr. hour)*40(members)*7000 = 1.120.000 CONCORD LP.


So at the one of the most ideal incursion scenarios with the most fleets as we can imagine 5 million concord LP is being generated per hour.
The real average of an entire week is much, much lower than this.

Now what are your numbers of mission runners in highsec? And how much do they contribute to LP of their own factions?
Because keep in mind, not all CONCORD LP is being converted (with a loss !!) to other factions. A lot of it is being spend in the concord LP store and even more will be spend there when the destructible customs offices go online.

winge winge winge whine whine whine cry cry cry

Is this all you people do

So, as I already said, incursions are not killing LP store profits. Some people are just mad that you can make too much isk running high sec incursions.

Let's make the issue clear.

...13440 LP that can be spent at ANY primary empire corporate LP store in the game.

So, 13440 LP in 2 hours, thats what I get in a good day in 20 minutes with l4s Oo.
...But actually my favorite lp store items RAISE in price, and the raise alot, instead of getting cheaper. And they raise in price more than corrosponing tags are going up in price.
...Mission runners are nearly as flexible as incursion runners AND get based on your math way more lp per hour.

If you want to blaim incursions for market changes, try to blaim them for rising dogag prices, becaue here you would have a point.

If you've actually looked at contracts, Mocam, faction modules have gone up in price, not down.
This is probably due to incursioners blinging out all their whips. Ironically from your failed logic, Mocam, generally a crashed LP store would have faction mods drop in price due to over saturation (SUPPLY/DEMAND)... but as anyone who's been watching contract prices for hot modules can clearly see, those modules are rising in price. Meaning that the main market-changer is tags. Tags from missioners and ratters. Tags rising from pilots either transitioning from missions to incursions (which Josefine pointed out incs makes less LP than lvl4s, no standings gain), or pilots who are smart enough to follow tag supply/demand.

Honestly, the way I see it, just like CCP said, "[generally] working as intended," which to me is getting pilots out of their solo isk boat and into to group isk ships, meetinggreeting, and making use of the word teamwork to reach a greater audience. Again, Incursions are a socioeconomic catalyst for the better.

All you naysayers like to think Incursions are terrible for the economy, but the reality is just that you can't get past naysaying.

As far as I know we're still looking into gathering some numbers (meaning a request was filed with our awesome Research and Statistics crew, and I should follow it up!). The plan wasn't to look at LP though, but at the larger picture of overall mission and incursion completion rates. One goal behind Incursion was to get people out of their solo PvE mission runner mindset and into a group, dealing with more PvP-like scenarios (logistics, for one). Ideally, Incursions should compete with missions for income, mostly because they teach a player so much more than standalone missions ever can, and draw them into PvP much more effectively.

Tl;dr moral of the story is that the popularity and consequent economic impact of Incursions, if they're at the same time really moving people out of missions, is probably ultimately a better system than missions as the sole and primary income stream.

Keep in mind also that most of us make tons of raw isk income, many of us dont even look into selling that concord LP, you only do it if you are really tight on money (which is not often when you do incursions regularly)

If you are going to nerf concord LP, which i think you should, then simply make the 'exchange rate' into other LP slightly lower, like 0.7 instead of the current 0.8 but please be gentle with nerfind incursions, it certainly is a fragile matter considering that there are many many people who fly poor ships and join poor fleets, those are the guys who need the most lovin... the rich get richer, thats how its always been, only thing you can do is make sure that the market economy stays balanced by simply nerfind the exchange rate from concord LP into other kinds of LP

Personally i am up to about 8 million concord LP which I never have bothered to sell yet, its a time consuming thing. And it bothers me a little to know that probably the most profit I can get from that concord LP is if buy/sell from the Concord LP store as opposed to other LP stores. concord LP is about 2k/LP-3.5k/LP, other LP stores can mostly give you 1k/LP... so converting my concord LP into other wouldnt be very profitable, in fact not nearly as profitable as selling concord stuff

Oh another important matter is that alot of mission runners who have bad standing with amarr, sadly cant even try out doing incursions because they didnt know that accepting certain missions wont let you fly into other races space, having occasional incursion spawns in minni or gallente space doesnt really help much for newcomers to invest in incursions or even try them (people like investing into careers more often than to simply try something out, because once they get bored doing something, they go after the next best career they find). You guys need to either change that 'standings thing' or inform people not to accept those missions unless they want to be blocked from flying into amarr space (which is like 99% of all space lol)

If you've actually looked at contracts, Mocam, faction modules have gone up in price, not down.
This is probably due to incursioners blinging out all their whips. Ironically from your failed logic, Mocam, generally a crashed LP store would have faction mods drop in price due to over saturation (SUPPLY/DEMAND)... but as anyone who's been watching contract prices for hot modules can clearly see, those modules are rising in price. Meaning that the main market-changer is tags. Tags from missioners and ratters. Tags rising from pilots either transitioning from missions to incursions (which Josefine pointed out incs makes less LP than lvl4s, no standings gain), or pilots who are smart enough to follow tag supply/demand.

Honestly, the way I see it, just like CCP said, "[generally] working as intended," which to me is getting pilots out of their solo isk boat and into to group isk ships, meetinggreeting, and making use of the word teamwork to reach a greater audience. Again, Incursions are a socioeconomic catalyst for the better.

All you naysayers like to think Incursions are terrible for the economy, but the reality is just that you can't get past naysaying.

So, 13440 LP in 2 hours, thats what I get in a good day in 20 minutes with l4s Oo. On a bad day maybe 40. Furthermore people who complain about low lp value fail to understand that no incursion runner has to buy items with low conversion rates.

I make 8k LP per mission on the higher paying missions running level 4s and they take lets say 20 minutes on average. I can make way more LP running missions (even before the exchange rate).

If I were to run incursions pretty fast, lets say 10 sites per hour (it can be higher sometimes, but also lower often when you need to reform after losing people), thats only 14k LP in an entire hour.

Incursions are not even close to killing the LP store market.

It is tag prices that are killing the LP store markets.

if tags are "killing" the lp store then... do some anti faction missions or nag ccp to introduce an option to only do anti faction missions.

Well though it could be incursion LP. Like lots of easy LP, but not lots of easy tags. So people need more tags to match LP. More demand higher prices. Suppose CCP could add more anti faction but easy to repair, or increase amount of tags in a ship kill. That way easy tags with easy LP. Or they could just nerf incurions LP, then dont need easy tags as well then. And faction is still a ***** to repair.

if you think tags are killing the lp store you are sorely mistaken.

For many items it now costs more to buy the tags on the market for an LP store item than you would make in profit selling the item (completely ignoring the LP you would also be using).

Now please justify your statement given that information.

The problem is not that people have too much LP, it is that they don't have enough tags.

There is no risk in PvE, at least not from NPCs. Given its high sec, there is no risk.



Making 100mil/hr from PvE in high sec is a bad thing. Why go to low sec for a bit more reward when you can have fat 100/hr risk free reward in high sec? There is already too little incentive to make money in low sec. Incursions just exacerbated that problem.



That hypothetical situation is about as far fetched as it could be.



No, its still outlandish, the same way that lvl 4 missions were long considered (and still are by some) to provide way too high of isk/hr for high sec. Just because everyone's doing it, does not mean its okay...

Just let the moons in high sec be moon mined and set back and watch the war decs fly.

For many items it now costs more to buy the tags on the market for an LP store item than you would make in profit selling the item (completely ignoring the LP you would also be using).

Now please justify your statement given that information.

The problem is not that people have too much LP, it is that they don't have enough tags.

No. The Problem is that they are still wasting money, isk and time on BUYING this items. If they would buy instead items with better conversion rates, soon prices of other items would rise, or tag prices would fall.

If your selling items for 500isk/lp conversion rates, you simply doing it wrong. Thank you anyway. Even trading is pvp in eve, and you are on the losing side it seems.

My best flips are around 6KI/LP honorable internet spaceship pilot. how are you?