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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
16
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Posted - 2011.11.14 23:47:00 -
[1741] - Quote
Just to build on the numbers a bit.
Assumptions:
2% tax on PI product value (upped from 1.7 as given in earlier post)
150 mil a month in product creation (2 charactors, 4/5 skills on both)
10 planets
20 corp members doing PI.
Costs 100 mil for each POCO to install. x 10 planets
The math.
2% of 150 mil is 3 mil. 3 mil x 20 players is 60 mil a month in taxes generated. Cost was 1 Bil to install the entire network, that gives you a ROI of 16.67 months. So for you to start generating a profit is 17 months. Does not sound like a good idea to me for any small corperation. Even larger ones may suffer.
So if this is all about putting the power back in the hands of the players and giving something for corperations to make money from your wrong. Your own numbers do not justify it except for large (huge) alliances that have a fairly defendable area and can run operations 24 hours a day to defend thier intial investment. I know there is a 24 hour timer, however putting these into reinforcement is going to be just the start. At some point someone else will come along to destroy the ones coming out of reinforcement and the owning corperation will just not have enough people on to do anything about it. its just too juicy a target and too costly for owning corps not to.
So if this was to give small corps/alliances a chance at a pot of gold you have missed your mark. There is no gold at the end of this rainbow, just misery and missed opportunity.
It does however give the new NAGA and Talos something to shoot at and provides a unique niche for these ships. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 00:00:00 -
[1742] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:words You forget that far too many people, possibly myself included, will decide that if our most enjoyed playstyle (wormholes in this case, high dependence on PI fuels) winds up becoming overly dependent on things we have no control over we'll simply consider other games instead. The one thing I can do in this game right now with little to no interference from others is create the PI pos fuels I need to keep my pos running. It's not too much to ask to allow for at least one little area of independence from the cacophony of the rest of the game. Sometimes I want a little "me" time. That is a fair take on things and, as you state, a common state of affairs regarding POS fuel generation in either worm holes or for more peaceful activities sandwiched by the cacophony of corp / alliance activities.
If you live in a corp or alliance held hole, do you believe that this change will be debilitating once the gantries and POCOs are set up and configured? I am making the assumption that the hole-holding entity sets up the POCOs and grants access to all interested parties.
Regarding other games, I completely understand. I am waiting to see how this PI + POCO + DUST stuff plays out over the next few months, as well. Lots of other engrossing entertainment options out there and CCP's grasp on my computer time has vastly decreased of late.
I wonder what CCP's take is on how many individual players and smaller entities will be driven away from PI activities. And how they factor that into their grand scheme for the DUST roll-out.
p.s. fxck you CCP forums. I copied my post into the clipboard and foiled yet another attempt the eat content.
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:04:00 -
[1743] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:So without going through 83 pages to see if this has been asked (apologies if it has)
What happens to my PI that is sitting in NPC customs when this change happens? Disappears? Gets moved to a NPC station nearby?
Can't send it back to the planet because my storage there may be full... and I certainly don't want to be paying another fricken round of export taxes, especially the ridiculous double taxes....
CCP - Congrats on continuing to gank PI producers... did the PI dev do something to **** all the other dev's off?
It will be ported automatically to a nearby (relatively speaking) station - CCP hasn't said exactly how this will be determined, but point is you won't loose your stuff -
This was answered directly by CCP in this thread. |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
16
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Posted - 2011.11.15 01:09:00 -
[1744] - Quote
It is only sort of answered. If you are in a system with no station then were does it go? |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:11:00 -
[1745] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:CCP!!!!
Please change your plans for low sec COs!!!
You will ruin PI for many and just add new static pirate hobby targets!
You will once again screw the little guy with your low sec CO plans!!!
Issler
Has anyone noticed this announcement?
Final Feature Build on Singularity for Winter 2011 expansion
So Grab your arses everyone, and secure your bars of soap, because whatever comes in Team Pi's devblog is probably what we're gonna be getting for Winter!
So in preparation to say goodbye to Low Sec PI access: Here's to the the PI Operators in Low Sec...
Quote:Should Old Acquaintance be forgot,
and never thought upon;
The flames of Love extinguished,
and fully past and gone:
Is thy sweet Heart now grown so cold,
that loving Breast of thine;
That thou canst never once reflect
on Old long syne.
... well you can hum the rest... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:15:00 -
[1746] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote:It is only sort of answered. If you are in a system with no station then were does it go?
It will still port to a station - that's why I mentioned 'relative'.... even if the next station is 10 jumps, thats probably where it will end up... thought is is plausible that CCP might be nice enough to just port it all to a HI Sec NPC station....
... it will end up in a station 'somewhere'
*(Wizard of Oz song coming on.... Some where over the rainbow......... ) |
Zleon Leigh
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:26:00 -
[1747] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So without going through 83 pages to see if this has been asked (apologies if it has)
What happens to my PI that is sitting in NPC customs when this change happens? Disappears? Gets moved to a NPC station nearby?
Can't send it back to the planet because my storage there may be full... and I certainly don't want to be paying another fricken round of export taxes, especially the ridiculous double taxes....
CCP - Congrats on continuing to gank PI producers... did the PI dev do something to **** all the other dev's off?
It will be ported automatically to a nearby (relatively speaking) station - CCP hasn't said exactly how this will be determined, but point is you won't loose your stuff - This was answered directly by CCP in this thread.
Well that would be just great - except if it goes to a station that I don't have access too...
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:32:00 -
[1748] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So without going through 83 pages to see if this has been asked (apologies if it has)
What happens to my PI that is sitting in NPC customs when this change happens? Disappears? Gets moved to a NPC station nearby?
Can't send it back to the planet because my storage there may be full... and I certainly don't want to be paying another fricken round of export taxes, especially the ridiculous double taxes....
CCP - Congrats on continuing to gank PI producers... did the PI dev do something to **** all the other dev's off?
It will be ported automatically to a nearby (relatively speaking) station - CCP hasn't said exactly how this will be determined, but point is you won't loose your stuff - This was answered directly by CCP in this thread. Well that would be just great - except if it goes to a station that I don't have access too...
Will only be NPC stations mate - no Outposts
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Zleon Leigh
91
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Posted - 2011.11.15 01:41:00 -
[1749] - Quote
eh, it doesn't matter. Player owned customs are just going to be gank sites in anything but HiSec. ("Hey gang - just saw tax revenue come in - P3M4 - Get him!")
Screw it, I'm out of PI
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:45:00 -
[1750] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Yes I have. And I tried that new SiSi build. Customs Office Gantry's are no longer seeded on the market. Makes you wonder......
Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format.
Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
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Posted - 2011.11.15 01:57:00 -
[1751] - Quote
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Yes I have. And I tried that new SiSi build. Customs Office Gantry's are no longer seeded on the market. Makes you wonder......
.... actually it just means CCP is putting a lump of coal in our PI stockings this year...
CCP redefining the meaning of
Quote:"no good deed goes unpunished..." |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:59:00 -
[1752] - Quote
So the new "responsive to the players" after 85 pages of responses, most being negative and against aspects of this change, many containing well constructed finacial models where these things can't pay for themselves has decided to ignore all feedback.
Awesome!
Can't wait to see the next way CCP can find to drive all the small corps, casual and independent players out of their game. Actually this is even worse, you can be hard core and large and the numbers just don't work.
How about this CCP, tie ammo damage and resists to the size of your alliance! Or transaction taxes! Let's get rid of those pesky players that won't just up and join a huge alliance!
This from the only game company with a full time ecconomist!
A sad example of how the "new responsive to the players" CCP appears to be anything but.
Issler
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 04:35:00 -
[1753] - Quote
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Yes I have. And I tried that new SiSi build. Customs Office Gantry's are no longer seeded on the market. Makes you wonder......
So Nullabor decided to crap all over everyone's concerns because he's too emotionally attached to a mediocre plan with a crap implementation.
Nice job CCP. Real effing nice.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:02:00 -
[1754] - Quote
Some thoughts around enabling people to get around the coming high taxes and the effects thereof.
1. Greatly reduce the time between expedited transfers.
2. increase the size of the storage in the command center.
3. Allow the owners of the Customers office to have an estimate of how much goods (as a percent) where launched in the past week versus using there CO. - Gives them a real incentive to lower tax rates. - or make them higher i suppose if its low percentage.
4. Allow the CC to be moved with out destroying the entire colony. - For those of us who have never used it and really don't want to rebuild our colony. I have a few that are a LONG ways away lol. - I wouldn't mind paying the entire cost of the colony again.. just don't want to do the rebuilding.
On the other hand...
To make the CO more competitive with launching how about allowing the transfers from storage to the CO if your able to scan planents in that system? Will give that "Remote Sensing" skill a kick in the pants. |
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:31:00 -
[1755] - Quote
Was thinking about DUST. This is a bit far off i know but...
Will dust players be able to destroy the CO? That would be cool.
AND launch there own CO?
Or maybe for more competition (potential) they have a different method of get PI off planets, one that only DUST players can fight over. A massive launch pad...
Which just like using the CC, would have the built in benefit of NOT being at a know stationary place... as an aid to avoid pirates. |
Ines Fy
Heroes of the Past
Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 09:58:00 -
[1756] - Quote
Looking to these changes I did some accounting and by Jita prices each CO cost 75M+20M BPC+concord points to build. Having in mind the planets I'm located only have 5-7 CCs I can count, not even in 2 years with taxes at 100% I will get my money back. And If I put taxes at 100% all PI clients will leave soon (tm).
Also every pirate and alliance in the game will look for COs that belong to small corps, like mine (4 chars), and ask for a ransom to not to kill them and when we do not comply, guess? -> Industrial small corps have no chance to defend them.
CO's are too expensive to build, so for me to risk placing 7 or 8 and try to explore them, having in mind a 2 year plus turnaround and the 99% risk of losing them in the first month... yes right... no way
Only if we could INSURE THEM, in low sec!
That would mitigate the risk of losing them and lower the losses to a minimum. Taking the huge loss risk from the the equation and transforming it in a small loss problem will make the difference!
Having the possibility of insure custom offices will make a huge difference and save low sec PI. I would invest the money and try to explore 7 or 8 of them and see what happens ... and If one day I loose 70-80M, OK, it was a good try and I can live with that. Losing 700-800 M I cannot live with that! |
Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:31:00 -
[1757] - Quote
Liu Ellens wrote:I was hoping to read about one feature: Make these custom offices be available for courier-contracts! But was highly disappointed... And second: Do I read this right, these things are pretty much defenseless (apart from their 24 hour timer)? No guns, no... nothing? Sounds like perfect 'shoot here for practise' signs  (edit: might be though that I didn't catch the actual intention of this iteration)
^This.
I want guns in my systems.
Also this is a game for Teams, thats why we have corporations. Why i need to haul my stuff ? But if, i would like haul it for my team mates, too.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:43:00 -
[1758] - Quote
New Devblog is out HERE
I think I'm the first to post on this since the new devblog came out...
With that said, I have to say that this is a win for the eve community! And while not everything we asked for, it is a reasonable compromise, and one that I am happy to accept. (Though I still think P4 commodities need a bigger Command Center launch vehicle m3)
Imo - I think it's important that we praise CCP and Team Pi for what good they have done in this change to PCO feature, so that they know their efforts at listening to the community are worth while - and while some of us will argue to the bitter end that 'nothing' should be changed to herald in PCO's; that is neither realistic, nor rational.
/golf_clap to Team Pi for really trying to listen to us, while balancing development needs and practicalities!
o7 |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
The Laughing Men
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:08:00 -
[1759] - Quote
If you still don't understand the fundamental problems with the feature, I can only laugh/cry. I'm too exhausted to argue. I'm too exhausted to comment (almost). Your economy will implode (literally not figuratively). Inflation will be the bane of eve player's existence (as if it's not a problem already). Your user base will scream louder than at the release of the NeX store. When your subscriptions drop even further than they have for this ill thought out 'feature', you will (hopefully) think back to when I told you so. I will take no pleasure in it (just like I never do). And you will end up reimbursing anyone who bought anything related to this terrible feature as you revert the POCOs back to pre-winter expansion.
I'm done talking 'with' you about it. Implement this in it's current form EVEN AFTER YOUR 'CHANGES', and mark my words: "The masses will revolt. |
Xerxes Ceasar
Lone Gunmen
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:17:00 -
[1760] - Quote
All I can say about this changes is WHY? it will only make POS fuel even more expensive, as it wasnt expensive enough as it is now.  |
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Vorpaladin
Diplomacy Has Failed
Fade 2 Black
8
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Posted - 2011.11.15 21:59:00 -
[1761] - Quote
After reading the new dev blog, I'm glad to see that the customs offices won't simply disappear after the expansion. I'm still not happy with the whole concept for reasons covered on the previous 89 pages of this thread (lol!). The biggest systemic problem for the whole EVE community is going to be significant inflation for POS fuel, which means fewer POSes, which means less manufacturing in general, which means inflation raging through the whole economy. This equates to a nerf of all ISK-generating activities (sites, missions, etc.) since payouts will remain constant while the price of everything increases. That means players will over time have fewer ships and fewer assets in general, so players have fewer options in what they can do, which simply makes EVE less fun to play. It looks like CCP is going to cram this down our throats anyway, create a firestorm of protests and see a shrinking subscriber base. Again. And this boondoggle doesn't even generate income for CCP like the NEX boondoggle presumably will. Seems crazy to me. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:55:00 -
[1762] - Quote
I followed this thread from day one and posted my thoughts and ideas along with many other players. I think CCP got lots of good thoughtful ideas and feedback.
Given all this feedback, essentially all CCP was able to do was change the way that CO's are removed from the game and added the ability to change tax rate by standing?
Are you kidding me? Seriously? Did you read the feedback from the people who play and care about this game?
Granted, both of the major changes were very much needed, but it's a far cry from what really is needed to make the original goals a positive thing within Eve. As it is, I think it's a not a positive change by any stretch of the imagination.
CCP - you wasted your time implementing this, and you wasted the time of all those who gave you honest thoughtful constructive feedback. I will never give you feedback again, as it is clearly a waste of time.
I probably will see how this thing settles out, not because I have any real hope that it will work well, but because it's only a couple weeks away. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:25:00 -
[1763] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:I followed this thread from day one and posted my thoughts and ideas along with many other players. I think CCP got lots of good thoughtful ideas and feedback.
Given all this feedback, essentially all CCP was able to do was change the way that CO's are removed from the game and added the ability to change tax rate by standing?
Are you kidding me? Seriously? Did you read the feedback from the people who play and care about this game?
Granted, both of the major changes were very much needed, but it's a far cry from what really is needed to make the original goals a positive thing within Eve. As it is, I think it's a not a positive change by any stretch of the imagination.
CCP - you wasted your time implementing this, and you wasted the time of all those who gave you honest thoughtful constructive feedback. I will never give you feedback again, as it is clearly a waste of time.
I probably will see how this thing settles out, not because I have any real hope that it will work well, but because it's only a couple weeks away.
If I might comment - where you might see a piece of coal in your PI stocking, I have to say I see a shiny piece of coal in mine... I got my wish for CO's not to be wiped, and gantry size to be reduced to fit in a crane!
Don't worry, just think in a million years that piece of coal might one day become a diamond?!
You just have to understand where CCP is coming from and then its easy to find the silver linings in this feature!  |
Nose ElGrande
Swarm Of Locusts
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 02:41:00 -
[1764] - Quote
Having reviewed the newly updated devblog:
1) Thank you for providing a response before the North Star arrived on the third day....
2) Thank you for allowing the players to determine where controlling PI tax is worth the POCO investment. If anything, this will incent folks to place POCOs and do their P2-P4 assemblies with no tax. This will also allow for deception if desired, so it is not so obvious where players *are* doing PI vs not. If ganking becomes an issue (by watching POCOs rather than Interbus stations), players can choose to replace Interbus stations at planets they do not use, so the 'odds' will be better for the planet they are using.
3) Thank you for revising the filters for taxation, this will be helpful. Also thanks for making transfer of POCO 'easy' ... there was no mention of what Corp Role would be created for this? What is the intent?
4) Ok, now the request ...
In the next two weeks, can you please provide a detailed commentary on what CCP will or will not do with the many suggestions provided on this thread. We would like to know what features will be implemented in future releases (not done now because of timing/complexity issues) and which will not ever be implemented (and why).
That would be helpful, and show that you have listened, considered the thoughts of the users, and have more reasons than just time for the decisions made.
Otherwise, good choices for now, I'm still hopeful for a Corporation-controlled device to have corp member accessible common Corporate Hanger so we can actually do PI as a corporation at the planet. I am patient.
Good Job. |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University
Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 10:54:00 -
[1765] - Quote
Maybe the (already started) POS fuel price hikes will make highsec PI profitable... and with no hassle of POCOs. One more reason POCOs are a bad idea. Making highsec PI more profitable while increasing the complexity and difficulty of lowsec/nulsec/wh PI only means one thing. Fewer industrialists putting their shiny haulers at risk. That means less conflict, less things getting blown up, less fun for everyone.
Can we skip to the part where you undo this horrible change and save everyone the trouble? Also, if there really is some alleged way this will interact with DUST, can you tell us what this mystical secret is? Keep your DUST out of our EVE until it's released, please. |
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 13:00:00 -
[1766] - Quote
CCP PI related Devs take note: -Your CEO he has already had to carry out one humbling climb down apology for arrogantly driving blinkered in one direction with a pet idea; ( you obviously feel you are too important to have to worry about that ), which you are too proud of to change sensibly all from not listening to the disaffected player base.
I am sure neither you, ourselves nor him wish for another public fiasco resulting from the effects of the PI changes you are presenting. It would be humiliating in the least. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:14:00 -
[1767] - Quote
Max O'Deel wrote:CCP PI related Devs take note: -Your CEO he has already had to carry out one humbling climb down apology for arrogantly driving blinkered in one direction with a pet idea; ( you obviously feel you are too important to have to worry about that ), which you are too proud of to change sensibly all from not listening to the disaffected player base.
I am sure neither you, ourselves nor him wish for another public fiasco resulting from the effects of the PI changes you are presenting. It would be humiliating in the least. It may not be the PI development personnel who are driving this change, keep in mind.
CCP has been laying the groundwork for DUST over the past year and a half and this may simply be one more deliverable in their overall project plan no matter how they try to sell the changes to their existing customers.
CCP will do whatever they believe to be necessary to further their DUST 514 project, make no mistakes about it. And it is up to us if we want to continue to play along in the context of CCP's grand console title delivery plan.
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Elvin Gizza
Gerek Ore And Moon Surveying
16
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Posted - 2011.11.18 05:46:00 -
[1768] - Quote
Maybe this have answered, but what is gained from attacking the CO?
- It blows up, and then you install your own CO ?
- You take control of it, and have to repair it ?
CCP:
With the taxing in all low spacing being set to 100%, because that makes most sense, what do you think will happen to PI prices? or availability of POS fuels ?
Why do you hate POS's? |
Zeronic
Zero Core Labs
United Abominations
5
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Posted - 2011.11.18 13:39:00 -
[1769] - Quote
Elvin Gizza wrote:Maybe this have answered, but what is gained from attacking the CO?
- It blows up, and then you install your own CO ?
- You take control of it, and have to repair it ?
CCP:
With the taxing in all low spacing being set to 100%, because that makes most sense, what do you think will happen to PI prices? or availability of POS fuels ?
Why do you hate POS's?
To me with the latest DevBlog, it just shows that either Team PI is either not looking at the bigger picture or they have the old case of CCP tunnel vision. Even with the changes it still not good enough, LP for an item that need to be put on almost every planet is not a very good plan at all. Plus how did Interbus get dragged in to this, I bet the RP Player are looking at that and go how does that work.
Again this isn't a bad idea but it only good on paper. TQ is a completely different story. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 14:06:00 -
[1770] - Quote
Moribund Topic
But for those that like to give CPR to corpses... please continue |
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