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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
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CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
241
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
If you ever wanted to be a spacefaring taxman, you are in luck! CCP Omen shares some information on the upcoming player-operated planetary customs offices in his latest dev blog.
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari State
57
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Love it.
At this rate we are gonna run everything in this Universe.
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Didona Carpenito
Akimamur Industries
4
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
really? wow |
Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Interesting risk dynamic with low-sec. I guess it all depends on how much damage they can take, on if it'll be worth setting one up. |
Walextheone
The Red Circle Inc.
2
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Really nice!
This will be fun in w-space |
Ineeh
Le Cafe des Sports
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:Customs Offices in High Sec will remain under the authority of CONCORD who will, in turn, charge doubled import and export taxes As if POS Fuel wasn't expensive enough ... and now we just need a good old speculation on ice prices ... oh wait, there is already goon |
Cunane Jeran
12
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Loving the sound of these changes. PI really needed something to kick it up the ass and this is perfect. |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
32
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is good. We need more things like this.
All things outside of high sec controlled by capsuleers and at risk. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Joseph Dreadloch
Dread Space Inc.
12
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
k |
Liu Ellens
Blame The Bunny The Dark Nation
4
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
I was hoping to read about one feature: Make these custom offices be available for courier-contracts! But was highly disappointed...
And second: Do I read this right, these things are pretty much defenseless (apart from their 24 hour timer)? No guns, no... nothing? Sounds like perfect 'shoot here for practise' signs
(edit: might be though that I didn't catch the actual intention of this iteration) I'm a little freighter - short and stout; This is my cargo, this is my route. When I get a lock-on, I scream and shout: "Light up a cyno!" and jump on out. |
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Louis deGuerre
Malevolence. Void Alliance
39
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
This was desperately needed with the coming of DUST514. Anything to make PI actually worth fighting over. I can't bring myself to play SpaceFarmVille again, but this is great stuff FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
32
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
... and one more thing: The end of magically appearing structures in Anoikis. How we ever managed to cram so many stinking colonists into those small crates I could never understand. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
116
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Very interesting...
Edit: Why not in hi sec to ? |
Ra Voreen
Federal Organization for Outerspace Freedom Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? |
Sessym
Superstructure Exposure Service
8
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Iterating on existing content - and expanding it to be more player-controlled? I've must been dropped into an alternative universe
Also, in before the tears this will cause _________ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,;;;;;####;;-------======-]> --,,,,,,,,,.... //_###_________------;;;;;;;;;;;;'''----======-]> --'''''"""" //_____/ ------- |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
75
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Amazing.. this is going to be part of the Winter expansion? or maybe sooner? |
Jack Paladin
StarFleet Enterprises BricK sQuAD.
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
INB4
'PI Is Broken' |
Dr Mercy
EC Riders Mech Alliance
6
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Are the new Customs Offices still going to be viewable on the overview? |
Hiram Alexander
Capital Enrichment Services
30
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Remarkable. Truly remarkable.
How soon? |
StarCrash
Spirit Corp Pinked
11
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
when does this go live???? |
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engjin
The Konvergent League Shades of Gray
6
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Very cool.
They can also be blown up I hope? |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
34
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
Did this one change just make low-sec and NPC null-sec industrial alliances a worthy endeavor? Control access to the good planets and mutual defense of customs offices and those using them.
This looks an indy upgrade to low-sec to me. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Sessym
Superstructure Exposure Service
9
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ?
Aside from the stations that had to be conquered, nothing in sov space was exactly reserved ever. The only stopping factor was your luck getting in doing things then away with it.
So, I guess, this is also a step towards the 'sov must mean something' part, as obivously the sov holders will have the first chance to build the customs offices. Of course, IF the holding alliance bothers / is able to enforce the policy. _________ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,;;;;;####;;-------======-]> --,,,,,,,,,.... //_###_________------;;;;;;;;;;;;'''----======-]> --'''''"""" //_____/ ------- |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/2690/2899/Configure.PNG
Shouldn't it be "Minimum standing" to clarify? |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ?
We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD.
5
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
While I applaud the fact you are actually working on old content, improving and doing new things with P.I. I have to say this dosent intrest me in the slightest. Sounds like more work.
Please dont see this as a jab at you, I just wish there was more 'fun' involved. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
Good point, it should, however, there is a tool tip on all the headlines that explains more. I'll try and have someone fix it.
Cheers Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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okst666
Not Solitude Again Chained Reactions
15
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Liu Ellens wrote:And second: Do I read this right, these things are pretty much defenseless (apart from their 24 hour timer)? No guns, no... nothing? Sounds like perfect 'shoot here for practise' signs
This!
I hope there is a button somewhere with "leave PI as it is", when this comes.
PI as it is now is complicated enough..
All I wish for PI is, that people could delegate the daily repeating work (clicky here, clicke there, iteron, warp, clicky clicky clicky, iteron warp pos, etc) to other corpmembers. Why not have one dedicated corp-PI-slave?
[X] < Nail here for new monitor |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rees Noturana wrote:Did this one change just make low-sec and NPC null-sec industrial alliances a worthy endeavor? Control access to the good planets and mutual defense of customs offices and those using them.
This looks an indy upgrade to low-sec to me.
In our wildest dreams, yes =) Game Designer Team Pi |
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Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
Being able to anchor customs office, control the planets export with it and run PI in enemy territory sounds a bit silly. |
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Ra Voreen
Federal Organization for Outerspace Freedom Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sessym wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? Aside from the stations that had to be conquered, nothing in sov space was exactly reserved ever. The only stopping factor was your luck getting in doing things then away with it. So, I guess, this is also a step towards the 'sov must mean something' part, as obivously the sov holders will have the first chance to build the customs offices. Of course, IF the holding alliance bothers / is able to enforce the policy.
You cant launch command centers in system where another alliance have sov (or they changed it). |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
engjin wrote:Very cool.
They can also be blown up I hope?
Yes, once they exit reinforcement.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
20
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
So cool! |
Starr Tookus
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
A few comments:
- Customs offices should have a maintenance or upkeep cost, and that cost should vary with the security status of the system they are implemented in. Frankly, this should exist for Player Outposts in nullsec too, but since that ship is currently at sea, this should be caught before leaving harbor. Why? Simplest reason is because with no ongoing cost, there is no drawback to, say, Pandemic Legion installing customs offices on all the valid production planets in VFK (Goonswarm space).
- I'm assuming that (like towers and stations) Customs offices can be repped when they come out of R/F - although this was not specifically addressed.
I like that losec customs offices are owned by corporations, this does present some interesting gameplay (um, griefing tactics) for corps that are trying to use losec for PI but not invested or residing in the systems they use.
- If a planet has a customs office installed, does that mean people who do not have access to said customs office cannot use planet for production, or can they still do launches? I would hope the former, since part of the purpose of the customs office should be to block access to assets, but the latter isn't a horrible option. This needs to be clear up front.
- Also, taxes. The whole "tariff" seems pretty vague. Is it based on market price of the product? Is it based on volume? Is it based on rarity? Devil in the details. I'd like some please.
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Very interesting...
Edit: Why not in hi sec to ?
We consider Player Owned Customs Offices in High-Sec a MUCH bigger impact on the game and the economy. It's not part of what we are doing now, but we aren't excluding it if this feature pans out well =)
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
76
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
Definitely allow anyone who can access the CO (as set in the new UI wintow) to also build structures on the planet. That is one major pain of PI, sometimes alliance A owns a system de facto, but alliance B has the in-game sov for the purpose of, say, a JB link. Members of alliance A then can not, and members of B are not allowed to run PI in the system. |
Kagan Storm
Syndicated Systems
9
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:48:00 -
[38] - Quote
Can you add something like once a month you have to tick and "ok button so we dont get the univers spamed with this crap around planets same way we have 50% of highsec spamed with pos towers that are owned by corporations that have not had a single person online for like 2 years..... and involve hiring mercs to remove them?
Make it so that once a month you have to do something to it or it i dont know..... explodes....
Also.... will shooting it in lovsec kill security status or do we have to declare a war on a person to shoot it in lovsec since we dont like him.
Also....
Theoretical RP question:
Dont people live in lov sec (in game on planets) I sent it kinda stupid corporations/empires alowe people to exploit planets for no fees???? Lov sec needs to have the planet pos or whatyoucallitthingy have some revolving tax for owner to pay to ingame faction that owns the space.... Offering small loans. Send message for details and arrangements. :)
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Sir HappyPants
Phantom Squad Atlas.
19
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Any ideas on the rough HP they will have? Also, is it a single RF timer or multiple?
This change is awesome.
Also, my vote would be only corps in sov holding alliance can set up office in sov 0.0 (imo). Member of the #TweetFleet@thisurlnotfound |
Dratic
TURN LEFT
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
I personally do not like the idea of defender getting a near perfect time when it comes out of reinforcement with them not being in system when a POCO is reinforced. It just reinforces the afk nature like the current sov system which is flawed. The attacker has no influence on the timer where as with stront in pos' you could get a preferable time if the defender wasnt there to adjust the timer. There needs to be a way for the attacker to influence the timer.
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Sessym
Superstructure Exposure Service
9
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ra Voreen wrote:Sessym wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? Aside from the stations that had to be conquered, nothing in sov space was exactly reserved ever. The only stopping factor was your luck getting in doing things then away with it. So, I guess, this is also a step towards the 'sov must mean something' part, as obivously the sov holders will have the first chance to build the customs offices. Of course, IF the holding alliance bothers / is able to enforce the policy. You cant launch command centers in system where another alliance have sov (or they changed it).
Heh. That's lame _________ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,;;;;;####;;-------======-]> --,,,,,,,,,.... //_###_________------;;;;;;;;;;;;'''----======-]> --'''''"""" //_____/ ------- |
muhuh Aihaken
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Good point, it should, however, there is a tool tip on all the headlines that explains more. I'll try and have someone fix it. Cheers Omen
Can we get a checkbox to set it for alliance only rather than having to make all our friends +5? Also is it based off corp standings or alliance standings? |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
One way to make this more interesting is to make PI in nullsec worth a lot and make the customs offices require a sov upgrade to anchor them, this way it would be worth doing PI and worth fighting over it. You should still be able to anchor them in lowsec and npc null without any upgrades or whatever but it shouldn't be as good. |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Very interesting...
Edit: Why not in hi sec to ? We consider Player Owned Customs Offices in High-Sec a MUCH bigger impact on the game and the economy. It's not part of what we are doing now, but we aren't excluding it if this feature pans out well =) Regards Omen I personally LOVE the idea that Customs Offices in Hi Sec are CONCORD owned and taxed at higher rates. Sure it means my PI monkey alts have to move to losec to be productive, or use launches and more frequent trips, but space outside of 0.5 needs unique and valuable features, and this is a good baby step. |
Mar Drakar
LDK Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
Is this the small gang target that should be prevented by another small gang? if so, please give more like these...
chargeable gates with "customs", autonomic repair structures on I'hub/ tcu ? |
David Carel
30
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
a) Will it be possible to set a tax rate for different standings/groups? Say, Alliance has 0%, +10 has 0% too, +5 has 10%, +0 has 20%, -5 has 50% and -10 has 100%?
b) Can you anchor a Customs Office next to a station/outpost? |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
75
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen I feel like saying let anyone put them in null. But I can see reasons for either way. I think it'll make more fights if you let anyone blow them up and put their own in null.
The down side is there could be a bit of griefing because of it. But that sort of happens with sbu's. And of course people would become more defensive of their space. When they think random people flying through their space might be going to remove a customs office. lol
I say let anyone building them in null. It'd be heaps of fun. More things to fight over. Some people might not bother with them. Others will...
Otherwise it'd just be another way for alliances/corps to take money from their members/renters. |
Candente
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
IpÇÇn+ên+Ån+Én+àpÇÇn+ön+ên+àn+Æn+àpÇÇn+ùn+ën+în+îpÇÇn+én+àpÇÇn+üpÇÇn+ôn+àn+Än+ôn+ën+én+în+àpÇÇn+ôn+àn+öpÇÇn+Ån+åpÇÇn+än+àn+ån+àn+Än+ôn+àpÇÇn+ìn+Ån+än+òn+în+àn+ôpÇÇn+Ån+ÄpÇÇn+ön+ên+àpÇÇn+ân+òn+ôn+ön+Ån+ìn+àpÇÇn+Ån+ån+ån+ën+ân+àn+ôpÇÇn+ôn+ën+ìn+ën+în+ün+ÆpÇÇn+ön+ÅpÇÇn+ön+ên+Ån+ôn+àpÇÇn+Ån+ÄpÇÇn+üpÇÇn+Én+Ån+ôn+îpÇÇn+ôn+ÅpÇÇn+Én+àn+Ån+Én+în+àpÇÇn+èn+òn+ôn+öpÇÇn+än+Ån+Än+çn+öpÇÇn+Æn+àn+ën+Än+ån+Ån+Æn+ân+àpÇÇn+ün+ÄpÇÇn+Ån+ån+ån+ën+ân+àpÇÇn+ùn+ên+àn+Än+àn+ûn+àn+ÆpÇÇn+ön+ên+àn+ÖpÇÇn+ån+àn+àn+îpÇÇn+în+ën+ïn+àpÇÇn+ön+Ån+Än+Än+ÄpÇÇn+ín+Än+Ön+ùn+ün+ÖpÇÇn+¬pÇÇn+ên+Ån+Én+àpÇÇn+ön+ên+ën+ôpÇÇn+ën+ôn+Än+çn+öpÇÇn+ün+ÄpÇÇn+ün+ön+ön+àn+ìn+Én+öpÇÇn+ön+ÅpÇÇn+ën+Än+ân+Æn+àn+ün+ôn+àpÇÇn+òn+Én+ïn+àn+àn+ÉpÇÇn+ân+Ån+ôn+öpÇÇn+Ån+åpÇÇn+än+Ån+ën+Än+ç PI without some more "perks". |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed?
Currently: Nothing.
You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc. Game Designer Team Pi |
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
85
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:54:00 -
[50] - Quote
Holy ****.
I love it.
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
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Olusegun Obasanjo
Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:55:00 -
[51] - Quote
how much HP will this thing have? can a small gang put it into reinforced in any reasonable amount of time? |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
39
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
While I do support putting more control into the players hands, I am a little sad about this change from the perspective of someone who lives in a wormhole. I hope the customs offices are either A: not too expensive, or B: fairly durable. Basically I'm envisioning people coming into occupied wormholes, blowing up customs offices, and leaving. No real interaction, just costing us money for the sake of griefing.
Also, nice touch adding the BP to the faction warfare stores. I know it isn't much, but I hope the little attention paid to the abysmal feature of FW will be appreciated. |
Hiram Alexander
Capital Enrichment Services
30
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen I no longer fly in Null, however, from the outside looking in, I see an excellent way of increasing antagonism and tears which might contribute (ever so slightly) to the possibility of fail-cascades and pewpew, as once BFF's get moodier over perceived insults etc.
It's too friendly out there - (so I hear...)
So, (personally) as an outsider I'd like to see these structures being outside of Alliance control.
I'd also love to see different tax settings, for different standings. For instance, if I was controlling a gateway system linking into hisec, I might want a 5% setting for blues, but 20% for neutrals... Though that might overly delay the release of what seems to be a brilliant change :)
As a wormhole dweller, this is extremely interesting - and evicting people from their current holes just took on a whole new dimension. |
Simvastatin Montelukast
SACHEN. Mean Coalition
3
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:58:00 -
[54] - Quote
Are these things going to show up on kill mails?
Perfect place to get easy kills if nobody else is around.
Nice |
Viscount Hood
Gallivanting Travel Company Band of Wanderers
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 13:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
Well you certainly know how to make PI more irritating. |
Dr Mercy
EC Riders Mech Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 13:59:00 -
[56] - Quote
Any comments on HP levels? |
Sessym
Superstructure Exposure Service
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 13:59:00 -
[57] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
Then 'ninja-PI' should really be allowed. Think of the people fighting over it! Keeping a planet would take orgnaized effort - and well played, it could be a really good step towards the Dust link
I'm glad you're doing this, but as you see the players have already expanded on the original idea _________ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,;;;;;####;;-------======-]> --,,,,,,,,,.... //_###_________------;;;;;;;;;;;;'''----======-]> --'''''"""" //_____/ ------- |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
85
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 13:59:00 -
[58] - Quote
I'm using the precious real estate immediately under the Dev Comment for what I was going to say here. :)
Refer to my post above under the Dev Comment. NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
35
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 13:59:00 -
[59] - Quote
Did I miss where he said how many HP these new customs offices would have? Or is that to be determined? |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
116
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 13:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Very interesting...
Edit: Why not in hi sec to ? We consider Player Owned Customs Offices in High-Sec a MUCH bigger impact on the game and the economy. It's not part of what we are doing now, but we aren't excluding it if this feature pans out well =) Regards Omen
Hmm... Ok |
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Mart Allini
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 13:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:While I do support putting more control into the players hands, I am a little sad about this change from the perspective of someone who lives in a wormhole. I hope the customs offices are either A: not too expensive, or B: fairly durable. Basically I'm envisioning people coming into occupied wormholes, blowing up customs offices, and leaving. No real interaction, just costing us money for the sake of griefing.
Well, they might be able to reinforce it easily, but theu would have to commit themselves to staying in there until the reinforcement timer was up to blow it up. If they do and you can't get a defense up, then meh, eat the cost.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
84
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:01:00 -
[62] - Quote
When will this be on Sisi for testing?
When do you plan on it being on TQ?
If there is no customs office can we still launch cans from the command center? Will we be able to launch cans from the spaceport? CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:01:00 -
[63] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote:A few comments:
- Customs offices should have a maintenance or upkeep cost, and that cost should vary with the security status of the system they are implemented in. Frankly, this should exist for Player Outposts in nullsec too, but since that ship is currently at sea, this should be caught before leaving harbor. Why? Simplest reason is because with no ongoing cost, there is no drawback to, say, Pandemic Legion installing customs offices on all the valid production planets in VFK (Goonswarm space).
- I'm assuming that (like towers and stations) Customs offices can be repped when they come out of R/F - although this was not specifically addressed.
I like that losec customs offices are owned by corporations, this does present some interesting gameplay (um, griefing tactics) for corps that are trying to use losec for PI but not invested or residing in the systems they use.
- If a planet has a customs office installed, does that mean people who do not have access to said customs office cannot use planet for production, or can they still do launches? I would hope the former, since part of the purpose of the customs office should be to block access to assets, but the latter isn't a horrible option. This needs to be clear up front.
- Also, taxes. The whole "tariff" seems pretty vague. Is it based on market price of the product? Is it based on volume? Is it based on rarity? Devil in the details. I'd like some please.
There is no upkeep cost currently. The Customs Office is very relevant in our future plans (don't dare go in to specifics right here, right now) so increased capability and costs will probably be added in the future.
Players can still do launches. The Customs Office does not dictate who can build a command center.
the tax thing is quite complex, (to my own surprise when I took it on) but whenever you do percent, there has to be a value at the bottom to modify with the percent. In the "real" world, customs are paid as actual money for any given commodity. Like for instance, 1kg Banana costs 1 USD or whatever. This is the tariff. This cost, is set by CCP on every single item that can flow to/from planets and the owner of the customs office modifies how much of that value he wants. This value existed before this change as well, and was precisely what you paid for import and export. We have increased it significantly but in turn, the default value is 5% which is the same as before =)
Hope that makes any sense!
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:03:00 -
[64] - Quote
Yeah. All that this game was needed is a lots-of-HP-structure-with-a-reinforce to shoot at for 5 hours every day. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:03:00 -
[65] - Quote
muhuh Aihaken wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Good point, it should, however, there is a tool tip on all the headlines that explains more. I'll try and have someone fix it. Cheers Omen Can we get a checkbox to set it for alliance only rather than having to make all our friends +5? Also is it based off corp standings or alliance standings?
It's a good suggestion, I'll add that to our wishlist. It is standing towards the owning corporation.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
David Carel wrote:a) Will it be possible to set a tax rate for different standings/groups? Say, Alliance has 0%, +10 has 0% too, +5 has 10%, +0 has 20%, -5 has 50% and -10 has 100%?
b) Can you anchor a Customs Office next to a station/outpost?
Wow, that was a good idea but it's not the case. If the time fairy smiles, then maybe...but don't count on it. The Customs Office can be anchored a certain distance from a planet, it doesn't perform any more checks than that. So I guess you can have it close by an Outpost but not by a POS, since they are around moons.
Game Designer Team Pi |
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Raquel Smith
Freedom-Technologies The Jagged Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:08:00 -
[67] - Quote
No sir, I don't like it.
Although let's clear a few of my misgivings up:
- If there is no POCO will we be able to do imports and exports?
- Will I be able to anchor these things in enemy space to impede their PI?
- What does it mean to have an anchored POCO with a tax rate of 100% rate? How about 0%?
- Who collects the taxes?
- Coke Zero or Diet Coke?
- How many hitpoints and what resists on the POCO?
- Can I now set up planets in systems in which my alliance do not hold sov? (Ninja-PI?) Can my alliance stop enemies from setting up planets in our space?
- What is the equivalent tax rate of the existing customs offices?
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
85
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:08:00 -
[68] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
To continue to emphasize this Blob factor with a tangible example :
Little tiny alliance of 100 people puts up Customs Offices in one low sec system. Goonswarm with 500 people goes and reinforces all the planetary timers in System X. Who is the tiny little alliance going to hire that is going to stop goonswarm? PL? Ya, ok. No way taxes are going to make up for hiring a major merc alliance to stop Goons.
I also thought you were going to move away form the "Shooting Structures" bit? How long does it take to take a Customs Office down? Why not bring 500 people and 100 supercaps to do this? Because faster is better. How can anyone stop a mega-blob if they're not already mega-blob capable? Noone wants to shoot structures, so they just develop ways of shooting structures FASTER. So more supercaps and more death on the field. Low Sec is already screwed up with a boring Null Sec, that PL is living in Amamake and other null sec alliances have been trolling through low sec with super caps on stand by.
Shooting structures is bad, do you have plans to change this as we go forward, just as has been mentioned for Null Sec sov changes?
So, it becomes a population issue, the more populated areas will be more valuable, for more throughput for more taxes. But who can and will contest with the major alliances in low sec, if the major alliances want to take that all over?
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:09:00 -
[69] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote: Without some control on the BLOB factor, there is no way that you're going to stop griefing from happening. I think you're going to have to rethink that carefully, especially for Null Sec.
HEY< WE"RE ALL BORED< LET"S GO SHOOT SOME CUSTOMS OFFICES IN NPC PLANET SPACE.
You forget one thing, everyone in nullsec is bored out of thier skull of shooting structures, maybe some lone super will reinforce your office (depending on hp) but no one will get a big fleet together too shoot these without a big chance to get a fight. |
Charles37
Ichiban Industries
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:10:00 -
[70] - Quote
These sound like great changes, bringing some much needed player involvement to PI.
That being said though, I'd like to see this continue to be iterated on, as per some of the suggestions in the thread already, such as being able to anchor guns outside a PI hangar, although you hinted that there's plans of some sort in the works for this.
Having these be restricted to subcapital combat ships and freighters, JFs, and Orcas would be great, although it might be a little awkward to do so. Perhaps to restrict them getting blobbed, put diminishing returns on the amount of damage they take from each additional pilot over X pilots? The idea of being able to set multiple tax rates based on standings is good, but there's still the important question of how much HP these will have.
And any timeline on when we can see these things on SiSi? |
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
85
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:11:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:David Carel wrote:a) Will it be possible to set a tax rate for different standings/groups? Say, Alliance has 0%, +10 has 0% too, +5 has 10%, +0 has 20%, -5 has 50% and -10 has 100%?
b) Can you anchor a Customs Office next to a station/outpost? Wow, that was a good idea but it's not the case. If the time fairy smiles, then maybe...but don't count on it. The Customs Office can be anchored a certain distance from a planet, it doesn't perform any more checks than that. So I guess you can have it close by an Outpost but not by a POS, since they are around moons.
I'm pretty sure I've seen moons closer than 100k from a planet. I might be wrong.
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Malakai Draevyn
Knights Of Anarchy Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:11:00 -
[72] - Quote
Okay..... I get it - a lot of people are going 'wooooo - PI changes' - but isn't this gonna utterly screw over the 'little guy' trying to scratch a living in nullsec ?
PI materials are gonna go through the roof, price wise. These BPCs / gantries will be auctioned off to the highest bidder - after all, it's a FW / Incursion runner's wet dream to be given exclusive access to something that anyone who wants to run a lowsec/nullsec POS *needs* - and then you have to get the damn thing to wherever you are already doing PI in order to plant a structure that most people will just use as a 'oh - it's there' kinda deal.
IMHO - you have just added an isk sum of about 150 mil (after the inflationary greed exhibited by most players) and another cloaky hauler run to the hassle of trying to get out into nullsec.
To hell with it - let's all just head off back to Empire - it's getting to the point where I am wondering "Is nullsec worth it anymore?" |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
76
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:13:00 -
[73] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:CCP Omen wrote: You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
To continue to emphasize this Blob factor with a tangible example : Little tiny alliance of 100 people puts up Customs Offices in one low sec system. Goonswarm with 500 people goes and reinforces all the planetary timers in System X. Who is the tiny little alliance going to hire that is going to stop goonswarm? PL? Ya, ok. No way taxes are going to make up for hiring a major merc alliance to stop Goons. I also thought you were going to move away form the "Shooting Structures" bit? How long does it take to take a Customs Office down? Why not bring 500 people and 100 supercaps to do this? Because faster is better. How can anyone stop a mega-blob if they're not already mega-blob capable? Noone wants to shoot structures, so they just develop ways of shooting structures FASTER. So more supercaps and more death on the field. Low Sec is already screwed up with a boring Null Sec, that PL is living in Amamake and other null sec alliances have been trolling through low sec with super caps on stand by. Shooting structures is bad, do you have plans to change this as we go forward, just as has been mentioned for Null Sec sov changes? So, it becomes a population issue, the more populated areas will be more valuable, for more throughput for more taxes. But who can and will contest with the major alliances in low sec, if the major alliances want to take that all over? How much isk do you think they'll make from them? It might not be worth it for big alliances to do things like that. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
85
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:14:00 -
[74] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:Bloodpetal wrote: Without some control on the BLOB factor, there is no way that you're going to stop griefing from happening. I think you're going to have to rethink that carefully, especially for Null Sec.
HEY< WE"RE ALL BORED< LET"S GO SHOOT SOME CUSTOMS OFFICES IN NPC PLANET SPACE.
You forget one thing, everyone in nullsec is bored out of thier skull of shooting structures, maybe some lone super will reinforce your office (depending on hp) but no one will get a big fleet together too shoot these without a big chance to get a fight.
Knowing your leaders, I'd say it's the other way.
I'd take over all the planets that I could and wait for the fight to come to us. Then trounce the hell out of anyone who wanted your planets. NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Raziphan Rebular
Crypsus
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:16:00 -
[76] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc. Mimidae Risk Solutions in first. :) The major issue, I have to tell you, with that thinking - as a Mercenary already, is that the value has to definitely increase enough to want to hire Mercs to do it. It's also the BLOB factor. The reality is, no Merc can outblob a major alliance/crew. it is just not happening (Unless you're PL I guess). Without some control on the BLOB factor, there is no way that you're going to stop griefing from happening. I think you're going to have to rethink that carefully, especially for Null Sec. HEY< WE"RE ALL BORED< LET"S GO SHOOT SOME CUSTOMS OFFICES IN NPC PLANET SPACE. I love the idea, but you're not going to stop the griefing by simply using the reinforcement timer function. It's going to become a sov mechanic all over again. The biggest numbers win. Over and over. You need to fix that and make it viable in other ways.
Appreciate the feedback. It's a tough nut, we have some ideas for the future, so hopefully, while there are no protection, those fights will be relatively isolated to particular systems in space. The value dynamic is very interesting, if alliances terrorize customs offices, there will be fewer around and the prices go up so bigger incentives to set one up again and protect it. Game Designer Team Pi |
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:16:00 -
[77] - Quote
Much to say on this topic, but this comes prominently to mind:
Sweet mother of [diety], not another activity that is tied to highly exclusive corp roles. PI was once the domain of the masses, but now this customs office game play change makes PI planetary management the domain of the few. Using the same and sorely antiquated POS management roles may be cost effective from a implementation standpoint, but anybody who advocates for POS management / use reform is weeping in their cereal atm.
Suggestion: create new roles that are PI-specific for management of these new assets.
Edits / Addenda:
What will happen to PI goods that are present in the customs office when the transition takes place?
Will the EVE contracting system be available to these new customs offices? If not, is it feasible to have contracts local to the customs office implemented? Dropping cans in-space to "trade" goods between characters at a customs office feels so ghetto (and unpolished from a game play perspective).
Will there be customs office upgrades available (NOT IHUB-based) to afford greater benefit (with commensurate risk, of course) to the anchoring entity?
Shooting more structures with timers. Anybody who has ground down null-sec Sov structures or spent hours grinding down POSes (pre-Dominion) has likely died just a bit more inside. Again, the blob wins with this mechanic. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Hathrul
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Narwhals Ate My Duck
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:16:00 -
[78] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: The Customs Office can be anchored a certain distance from a planet, it doesn't perform any more checks than that. So I guess you can have it close by an Outpost but not by a POS, since they are around moons.
so if you can change the location a bit of your custom office, will it have to be scanned down? because whats the point otherwise of having an area to deploy it
and if the location can be chosen, how will it be found and used? will it be done with combat scanner probes? still on overview for people with good standings? will you be able to set standings like +10 can see it on overview?
|
ukiyo e
Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:18:00 -
[79] - Quote
Two questions:
1. As many others have already asked, what will the HP of these structures be?
2. Will the POCO still function when it is reinforced? Or will it behave like a POS? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:18:00 -
[80] - Quote
This change is full of possibilities, especially for lowsec/npc 0.0 entities.
The deciding factor will be the EHP of the offices. If at all possible, I would encourage CCP not to go with raw HP for this. Rather, give it low base HP but very high resists (for example 10k raw hp with 99% resists for 1 mil EHP).
That way, it's not practical for the attacker to try and kill the CO while there are defenders remote repping it, but once the fight is won, killing it doesn't take long. |
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:19:00 -
[81] - Quote
1. With the Customs Office holder effectively controlling the one port for the planet and access being controlled by standings then the CO holder can basically set himself up as the governor. Also, with the CO being a corporate asset this sort of turns PI into a corporate sponsored activity. Will we get better information as to what colonies are on a planet so the 'governor' can suggest limits to those that listen to him? Currently, its hard to see colonies and extremely difficult to see what effect they have on resources.
2. Yes, PI is going to get harder but it can generate a lot of income fairly passively. I'm happy to see more effort in using and defending this ISK faucet. However, since most ships accessing a CO are cloaked haulers it would be nice to be able to anchor a few small guns. Just give the CO some small CPU and power grid and let the owner anchor a few.
3. Do you have to choose a standings limit or can you make it open to everyone? A free port will be much easier to manage if you just want the taxes. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Malrock
Mea Culpa Enigma
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:20:00 -
[82] - Quote
Good start.
Now how about increasing planet side space port capacity to 100 000 m3 and elite level control center powe & cpu increase by 500 % ?
Also, how about adding another skill to go above the current limit of planets ? |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:20:00 -
[83] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:While I do support putting more control into the players hands, I am a little sad about this change from the perspective of someone who lives in a wormhole. I hope the customs offices are either A: not too expensive, or B: fairly durable. Basically I'm envisioning people coming into occupied wormholes, blowing up customs offices, and leaving. No real interaction, just costing us money for the sake of griefing.
Also, nice touch adding the BP to the faction warfare stores. I know it isn't much, but I hope the little attention paid to the abysmal feature of FW will be appreciated.
We gave this a lot of thought, and the CSM helped in significantly lowering the costs from what we had initially planned. All the materials are in the blog so you can both figure out what it will cost you, and even prepare a stash with those materials. One point to note is that the CO is still operational while in reinforcement, so unless the aggressor sticks around for the entire time you'll just rep the office back up when they are gone. If this becomes a big problem, we have solutions to mitigate it.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Raziphan Rebular
Crypsus
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:21:00 -
[84] - Quote
Does this open up the possibility for a new profession, like smuggling? I know that moving drugs right now has some sort of smuggling mechanic. |
Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:22:00 -
[85] - Quote
What happens to the usage during reinforcement and/or damage? can't use at all? no taxes to owner but can still export/import? edit: nvm...
Personally I think anyone should be allowed to put a CO where they like without the game mechanics limiting them as long as the planet doesn't already have one.
The limitation should be the players, can you setup a CO in hostile space? sure; will it last very long? well if they actually live in those systems... probably not.
This looks to be a part of the "live in your space" and "small gang targets" ideas... I think it might actually work for nul too.
Low sec PI is a little bit harder to gauge, having to hold a pocket of it against the trigger happy low sec denizens and avoid the bored nulsec hotdrops could get annoying... hard to see how that'll play out. I hope that it'll work. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:23:00 -
[86] - Quote
Didona Carpenito wrote:really? wow
May have to do some PI.
Ok, read the blog three times now.
Nope, wont be doing PI.
Good. Less competition. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:24:00 -
[87] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels?
=HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000
* Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Jake Centauri
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:24:00 -
[88] - Quote
So any PI materials that are in the customs office hangars will be lost when you remove the customs offices? And the planets themselves will be without import/export capability until a group comes along that is amenable to operating a "public" customs office for 100% tax?
Not crazy about the inclusion of lowsec for these changes. |
Raziphan Rebular
Crypsus
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:25:00 -
[89] - Quote
Why did you decide to make customs offices require corporations to deploy and manage? They seem like a structure that could be easily built and managed by a person. Why did you decide to remove PI from the Masses and make it the realm of the big corporations and there for alliances? |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:25:00 -
[90] - Quote
Sessym wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? Aside from the stations that had to be conquered, nothing in sov space was exactly reserved ever. The only stopping factor was your luck getting in doing things then away with it. So, I guess, this is also a step towards the 'sov must mean something' part, as obivously the sov holders will have the first chance to build the customs offices. Of course, IF the holding alliance bothers / is able to enforce the policy.
Incorrect. While previously-created planetary structures remained accessible if your alliance lost sov, you cannot place a command center on a 0.0 planet if your alliance does not hold sov in the system. (Thus, no PI in NPC 0.0). |
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:27:00 -
[91] - Quote
I vote for sovereignty holders not having an automatic blockade on foreign customs offices. This gives another item to fight over during sovereignty wars and if you aren't paying attention to your buffer zones you'll see squatters moving in and taking over planets. However, I suppose there are DUST mechanics being worked on that we can't see yet. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
72
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:27:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
seems to me like a reason to want to have sov. from the little time i lived on sov nullsec i didn't really get the interest to pay for sov bill on lots of system, so if it give us advntage for PI it can be a good idea.
also about the position, it is said "100 000 km from planet", does that niclude on the grid of a moon where we have a pos with defense ? making it that we can use a pos to defend against attack, like for SBU ?
you didn't gave an idea of when this feature will be released, is it short term or long term stuff ? |
Highfield
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:28:00 -
[93] - Quote
Like it, although I have a couple of questions:
1) as stated a couple of times already in this thread: what order of magnitude will the HP/resistances be in?
2) Can you use capitals to gank these structures??
Little context:
If they have a relative low HP compared to other structures they will be easy prey for (super)capital blobs. If they have too much HP small/medium sized fleets won't be able to touch them..This is a fairly important design decision in my opinion so I'd like some more insight in this. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:29:00 -
[94] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
Standing guard duty is lame (though actively fighting is fun).
Give customs offices enough natural defense to prevent individual ships from reinforcing them constantly. However, small gangs (8+, give or take) should have enough firepower to do the job. |
Neechi HollanderDanny
Sith Squirrels
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:30:00 -
[95] - Quote
Question: What happens with items already inside the Custom Office during / after the change/patch? Will it be destroyed or transfered to nearest station or (death)clone station? |
Sir HappyPants
Phantom Squad Atlas.
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:30:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen
That would take a long time for a lone supercap pilot for anyone who may be wondering...
I doubt too many drive-by-POCO bimbing will happen with HP this high... Member of the #TweetFleet@thisurlnotfound |
Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:31:00 -
[97] - Quote
damn. just finished moving all my PI stuff to lowsec - risky as it is. now i have to worry about someone else's insane tolling fees? or failing that maintain a sitting duck. something i've managed to avoid thus far.
i don't wholly disapprove of the Machiavellian level of complexity you've added to my lil operation but it has made me sit up and take notice.
My suggestion is that lowsec regions retain the current stations in existence and allow player corps to bid on the auction contract market for their control.
i realise that that mechanic does not exist and prolly take a LOT of work defining who can legally bid but it would also solve a many high-sec POS transfer issues as well.
Come to think on it there is no reason why a controling alliance can not market its structures internally in nullsec using a modified auction contract system.
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hackjack
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:32:00 -
[98] - Quote
Is there any plans for - new items - to be made from pi 1 all way to pi 4 ( end product )
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Raziphan Rebular
Crypsus
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:32:00 -
[99] - Quote
How long until this feature is rolled out? Are you planning to do it as part of an expansion or will it be dropped in on us in a regular patch? |
Wacktopia
Sicarius. Legion of The Damned.
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:34:00 -
[100] - Quote
Nice :) |
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:34:00 -
[101] - Quote
Sir HappyPants wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen That would take a long time for a lone supercap pilot for anyone who may be wondering... I doubt too many drive-by-POCO bimbing will happen with HP this high...
12 minutes to reinforce with a solo nyx is not "a long time". |
Andrea Griffin
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:36:00 -
[102] - Quote
This is amazing. I now have a new passtime: Blowing up unattended customs offices. : > It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:37:00 -
[103] - Quote
Raquel Smith wrote:No sir, I don't like it. Although let's clear a few of my misgivings up:
- If there is no POCO will we be able to do imports and exports?
- Will I be able to anchor these things in enemy space to impede their PI?
- What does it mean to have an anchored POCO with a tax rate of 100% rate? How about 0%?
- Who collects the taxes?
- Coke Zero or Diet Coke?
- How many hitpoints and what resists on the POCO?
- Can I now set up planets in systems in which my alliance do not hold sov? (Ninja-PI?) Can my alliance stop enemies from setting up planets in our space?
- What is the equivalent tax rate of the existing customs offices?
No but you can do launches with your Command Center Yes, you might not be able to actually do PI though (this is undecided as visible in other comments) 100% means that the cost of an item is 100% of its tariff which is set by CCP per item, for instance 6000 ISK for 1 unit of Robotics. 0% means 0% of 6000. The corporation that owns the customs office get the taxed ISK in their corp wallet Zero! (because it's for boys apparently) See my other replies Yes and No, you have to enforce your space with spaceships, If your alliance have all planet's customs offices already then your enemy must first take them down before putting up their own 5% Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Highfield
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:38:00 -
[104] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen
WAY too high..this is a missed opportunity to get more action for medium subcapital fleets in EvE...divide numbers by 4 and we're getting closer + invulnerability from fighterbombers + doomsdays. |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
74
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:39:00 -
[105] - Quote
will it still be possible to launch pi goods via the rocket?
i cant see many people bothering with PI if the customs office becomes defenseless and vulnerable to attack.
i reckon we shall see a huge decline in pos usage....
PI's click fest was boring enough already now we will have to be even more bored repping the stupid customs offices every other day
way to go ccp you've just killed off PI
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Sir HappyPants
Phantom Squad Atlas.
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:40:00 -
[106] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Sir HappyPants wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen That would take a long time for a lone supercap pilot for anyone who may be wondering... I doubt too many drive-by-POCO bimbing will happen with HP this high... 12 minutes to reinforce with a solo nyx is not "a long time".
12 minutes in space and potentially vulnerable, especially solo? Long enough to make some (most?) supercap owners think twice imo.
That said, with HP values that high, it'll be another thing that will "need" a blob. Member of the #TweetFleet@thisurlnotfound |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:40:00 -
[107] - Quote
Who will receive notification when a CO is attacked or in reinforced? The original question was about someone that had items in the CO but didn't manage the office. Will they receive a notification that their items are at risk? Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Ra Voreen
Federal Organization for Outerspace Freedom Fatal Ascension
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:40:00 -
[108] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Omen Maybe restrict the ability to build the custom office to the alliance that have sov, but allow everybody to launch command center. That will allow "rogue PI" in enemy space, but keeping a (good) advantage to the sov holder. I dont think it will be used a lot, but it adds a nice little thing to the game, and a bit more immersion. Also, this will allow people to have 0.0 areas with open PI. I am thinking about CVA or the Goon's idea of Delve thunderdome here.
Also, please allow a corp to transfer the ownership of the CO to another, to allow corp that leave alliances to transfer CO, like the way they can transfer iHubs now. Ideally, you could also include it in the contract system, to allow a corp to sell its CO to another one, which can be a nice and interesting business ;) |
Captain Byte
RingWorld Engineering
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:41:00 -
[109] - Quote
Why not simplify the whole idea, and make a Customs Office a POS module. One Customs Office per system. Having one at each planet makes NO sense. That way you address all the Sov questions posted. It also answers fueling questions, and vulnerability questions. BTW, who gets the tax on launches?
Something that is a real pain, and I wish you were addressing is the lack of corporate PI. Everything is geared to the individual, forcing each character to handle their own import/export, rather than production being corporate oriented.
Make the PI interface simpler overall. The click fest we have now is riduculous. The Science and Industry overview should be useful for more than opening Planet Mode to reset production cycles. Show the detail for each planet module, and allow use to reset them from there. Oh, and get rid of the timer slider. Let us enter the time directly. While it may be 'pretty', it's not very functional.
Leave wormholes alone. The only thing they're good for is PI and ratting. And jacking the tax in hi-sec? PI is a worthless endeavor there now. You need to be in null sec or a wormhole before the concentrations let you make any money. Even then, you can make more ISK per hour ratting.
That said, if you persist in this change, I'm hoarding my level 4 PI production, because their value is going through the roof. |
Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
194
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:42:00 -
[110] - Quote
Highfield wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen WAY too high..this is a missed opportunity to get more action for medium subcapital fleets in EvE...divide numbers by 4 and we're getting closer + invulnerability from fighterbombers + doomsdays. devide it by 400 and make it only engageable with rookie ships! You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:42:00 -
[111] - Quote
Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'.
It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:44:00 -
[112] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:.... (Thus, no PI in NPC 0.0). What are you smoking? PI is 100% feasible in NPC 0.0 to any poor slob who comes along.
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Sturmwolke
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:44:00 -
[113] - Quote
To make this work right, you need to streamline the standings management, including having an easy to manage main customs control overview.
Nobody would like to speand a whole day managing hundreds of corp/alliance standings - not knowing who's who, who's active, who's dead and other whatnots. Their fine granularity makes them unwieldy. You can't oversimplify this part anymore (after your last prunig session) as its fairly integral to player generated content.
Don't over complicate things if you don't plan to support it with improved player tools. It'll be another half-cooked job. |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:45:00 -
[114] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:will it still be possible to launch pi goods via the rocket?
i cant see many people bothering with PI if the customs office becomes defenseless and vulnerable to attack.
i reckon we shall see a huge decline in pos usage....
PI's click fest was boring enough already now we will have to be even more bored repping the stupid customs offices every other day
way to go ccp you've just killed off PI
I don't know of anyone that uses the rocket since the volume is so bad. Maybe that should be looked at to provide an alternative to smugglers. It'd be nice to make that an option. Perhaps it'll irritate the 'governor' enough that he'll send his tax collectors after them.
They haven't just killed off PI. They just took away the easy button for those operating outside of high sec. Low sec PI was too easy.
Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
captain curry
Empyrean Warriors The Obsidian Front
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:46:00 -
[115] - Quote
My only worry is the ~300million isk sink i gotta fork out for my pi then a quiet part of low-sec.. cant wait DuckSex > my solution to solo pvp: create an alt account. hunt yourself. |
Highfield
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:46:00 -
[116] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Highfield wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen WAY too high..this is a missed opportunity to get more action for medium subcapital fleets in EvE...divide numbers by 4 and we're getting closer + invulnerability from fighterbombers + doomsdays. devide it by 400 and make it only engageable with rookie ships!
Yeah let's do that!
On a more serious note: the last thing eve needs is another structure which will in all honesty require eighter a battleship blob, a bunch of dreads or a couple of supers to kill it. Yes I know it can be done in bombers, I was there when FA prooved it. That being said I think it is in everyones best interest to avoid this. |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:47:00 -
[117] - Quote
Will customs offices still appear on the overview as they do today? Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Dinta Zembo
Snuff Box
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:47:00 -
[118] - Quote
So this means that if I'm the only person using a bunch of planets for PI, I will have to personally invest hundreds of millions of ISK in to buying 5 customs offices? Don't think so.
Correct me if I'm wrong. |
Kasidis
Noble Company
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:47:00 -
[119] - Quote
Make way for DUST 514 kids |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:49:00 -
[120] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:CCP Omen wrote: You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
To continue to emphasize this Blob factor with a tangible example : Little tiny alliance of 100 people puts up Customs Offices in one low sec system. Goonswarm with 500 people goes and reinforces all the planetary timers in System X. Who is the tiny little alliance going to hire that is going to stop goonswarm? PL? Ya, ok. No way taxes are going to make up for hiring a major merc alliance to stop Goons. I also thought you were going to move away form the "Shooting Structures" bit? How long does it take to take a Customs Office down? Why not bring 500 people and 100 supercaps to do this? Because faster is better. How can anyone stop a mega-blob if they're not already mega-blob capable? Noone wants to shoot structures, so they just develop ways of shooting structures FASTER. So more supercaps and more death on the field. Low Sec is already screwed up with a boring Null Sec, that PL is living in Amamake and other null sec alliances have been trolling through low sec with super caps on stand by. Shooting structures is bad, do you have plans to change this as we go forward, just as has been mentioned for Null Sec sov changes? So, it becomes a population issue, the more populated areas will be more valuable, for more throughput for more taxes. But who can and will contest with the major alliances in low sec, if the major alliances want to take that all over?
We are avoiding "shooting at structures" but it's a catch 22. If you introduce a structure, nature sort of demands that it can be destroyed Our goal is that people will show up and fight around the structures, but it's a tough one. Your concern is duly noted, but it's a much larger issue than just this, and we are thinking about it.
Game Designer Team Pi |
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Kober Singular
Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:51:00 -
[121] - Quote
This very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very BAD idea. Idiotismo idea. Autors give Darvin premium!!!! |
Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:52:00 -
[122] - Quote
Kober Singular wrote:This very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very BAD idea. Idiotismo idea. Autors give Darvin premium!!!! u afraid of player interaction? |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:53:00 -
[123] - Quote
Hathrul wrote:CCP Omen wrote: The Customs Office can be anchored a certain distance from a planet, it doesn't perform any more checks than that. So I guess you can have it close by an Outpost but not by a POS, since they are around moons.
so if you can change the location a bit of your custom office, will it have to be scanned down? because whats the point otherwise of having an area to deploy it and if the location can be chosen, how will it be found and used? will it be done with combat scanner probes? still on overview for people with good standings? will you be able to set standings like +10 can see it on overview?
CONCORD (or someone) demands that all Customs Offices are always visible on the Overview per default no matter who owns them. Game Designer Team Pi |
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:53:00 -
[124] - Quote
I doubt anybody will be looking at building a customs office for each of their planets unless they are in w-space. It'll take some time for the new planetary infrastructure to be build by players but once it is then we'll have to see how many just want the taxes and leave them as free ports.
This is probably the first time industrial corporations can actually engage in warfare that affects production. Or even really provides them a reason to. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Kaminu
Lost Souls Continuum United Pod Service
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:53:00 -
[125] - Quote
A good extension would be to set different taxes for different standings. i.E.
Corp = 0% Alliance = 2% +10 = 5% +5 = 10% 0 = no access -5 = no access -10 = no access
Why not selling the service to anyone that is willing to pay for it? If a player CO is placed in low sec why should the owner not earn more from player he dont know as from his friends? |
Walextheone
The Red Circle Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:54:00 -
[126] - Quote
I don't like the 24 hour reinforcment. In w-space at least you don't have that much time before the wormholes closes. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:54:00 -
[127] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:.... (Thus, no PI in NPC 0.0). What are you smoking? PI is 100% feasible in NPC 0.0 to any poor slob who comes along.
Seriously? What the hell is my PI alt doing in low-sec then....argh! |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:55:00 -
[128] - Quote
Walextheone wrote:I don't like the 24 hour reinforcment. In w-space at least you don't have that much time before the wormholes closes.
Then PI in wormholes just got a bit safer, or at least destroying PI will take a bit more investment. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:55:00 -
[129] - Quote
My main complaint is that these should require at least some fuel on a regular basis, just like a POS tower. Something around 15M ISK/mo with the ability to hold 30 to 60 days of fuel. If you can't raise 500k/day in taxes, then you should consider not putting up a customs office at all.
And I'm disappointed that there is no Strontium bay to control the reinforcement time. Make it so that while you can still pick the "come out of reinforcement window" that you still have to have enough Stront in the bay to fuel it for long enough to make that happen (allow storage of 24h of stront). You still get the ability of the defender to control the timer, but only if they have the foresight to keep the stront bay topped off. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
4
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Posted - 2011.10.18 14:57:00 -
[130] - Quote
Sir HappyPants wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Sir HappyPants wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen That would take a long time for a lone supercap pilot for anyone who may be wondering... I doubt too many drive-by-POCO bimbing will happen with HP this high... 12 minutes to reinforce with a solo nyx is not "a long time". 12 minutes in space and potentially vulnerable, especially solo? Long enough to make some (most?) supercap owners think twice imo. That said, with HP values that high, it'll be another thing that will "need" a blob.
We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.
Regards Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
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Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:58:00 -
[131] - Quote
If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:58:00 -
[132] - Quote
I'm a bit worried this may end up being yet another reason for individual players or small corps to stay put in high-sec. It's a pretty big nerf to ninja-PI.
On the bright side it's an interesting small-scale conflict driver and allows for some passive income for the owning corporation.
One idea: How about letting the owner control the tax rate within reasonable limits, but force access to be public regardless of standing. Non-owners would be able to use the planet, at an increased fee and risk of getting ganked. Owners would get secondary income at the cost of not having complete control of who uses it.
My biggest concern with the implementation described would be that the majority of planets would be simply be closed down to anyone but blues, and become yet another toy only available to big corps or alliances. Thats very different from the original idea that PI is for everyone.
In terms of HP, they seem in line with small control towers. Those can be killed by a small fleet with some effort. Sounds like a reasonable size. |
Andrea Griffin
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:59:00 -
[133] - Quote
Raziphan Rebular wrote:But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. God forbid you be encouraged to interact with other people in an MMO. It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 14:59:00 -
[134] - Quote
Walextheone wrote:I don't like the 24 hour reinforcment. In w-space at least you don't have that much time before the wormholes closes.
So a harassment attack could reinforce, but if you want to kill their stuff you need to invade. Does that not seem fair? |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
126
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:00:00 -
[135] - Quote
If I got this right, these structures will have a bit less EHP than small towers, and cost about 80m ISK to build and set up (including the BPC from a FW corp). There is basically zero risk going to one and trying to blow it up - even if you are alone in some small ship. It will just take a while.
I'm not sure this is particularly good. It invites "bored people" to just reinforce a few customs offices etc. when no one is around. It would likely be good to keep an eye on how that plays out. They might might need some kind of protection (make it possible to anchor POS batteries around it?)
Also, do customs offices continue to work while reinforced? |
XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:00:00 -
[136] - Quote
Yay, another reason not to visit low sec. With sov-held 0.0 firmly in the hands of blue fests and renters, PI was one of the few reasons anyone had to visit low sec, and now that's removed. Customs offices will simply be blown up by blobs and low sec pirates with that low of HP. Same with NPC 0.0. Can't wait for all the bluebear sov 0.0 entities to go wipe out low sec and NPC 0.0 PI and to set standings so you have to join the boring state of sov-0.0 to make any isk.
Low sec gets turned into even more of a ghost-town with this change and large entities get another way to push small entities out into the cold. Lamest change to EVE in quite a while. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:02:00 -
[137] - Quote
Ra Voreen wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Omen Maybe restrict the ability to build the custom office to the alliance that have sov, but allow everybody to launch command center. That will allow "rogue PI" in enemy space, but keeping a (good) advantage to the sov holder. I dont think it will be used a lot, but it adds a nice little thing to the game, and a bit more immersion. Also, this will allow people to have 0.0 areas with open PI. I am thinking about CVA or the Goon's idea of Delve thunderdome here. Also, please allow a corp to transfer the ownership of the CO to another, to allow corp that leave alliances to transfer CO, like the way they can transfer iHubs now. Ideally, you could also include it in the contract system, to allow a corp to sell its CO to another one, which can be a nice and interesting business ;)
Yeah, you should absolutely be able to transfer ownership of a CO. We'll try and get this done. Regarding sov space, we need to think about that, and all your feedback is very appreciated.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:02:00 -
[138] - Quote
muhuh Aihaken wrote: Can we get a checkbox to set it for alliance only rather than having to make all our friends +5? Also is it based off corp standings or alliance standings?
It should have been done so that you could set taxes by level...
One tax rate for corp members, a 2nd tax rate for alliance, then tax rates for the 5 different standings levels. Which would let you do something silly like (or whatever floats your boat):
Corp = 5% Alliance = 10% +10 = 10% +5 = 20% neutral = 30% -5 = no access -10 = 100%
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Dragnkat
HAMMER STAR BLADE Universal Paranoia Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:03:00 -
[139] - Quote
So let me get this straight, every non high sec customs office is being removed? Or only being removed if the players anchor a CO?
If its that first then congrats CCP, that's a giant screw you to every little guy PI'er out there, and those who enjoy a life of ninja hauling and running goods out from low sec PI under the noses of other larger corps. Not to mention you just ruined the entire setup I spent the better part of three hours doing across four planets just last night,
A setup that involved sucking up the tax costs and used the npc CO as a transit point. As in launchpad A by extractor too far to link sends goods to CO, then import back down to launchpad B where factories are, refine through basic and advanced, haul back out, profit. since it's in low sec and I want to make as few trips as possible.
Said setup also in a part of low sec that my corp has no interest in trying to own or set anything up in. One I picked for good planets and specifically spent the entire last month and a half training up for blockade runners and PI to make use of.
And now you're telling me I'm reduced to the massive time sink and high risk of having to rely on launch cans?
That and without a CO how are you going to import goods back down to a planet as well for a factory setup should it be in non high sec?
Another change great for the megacorps and the blobs, horrible for everyone else. Color me rather pissed off. Though it makes me glad I'm training for combat ships right now. Looks like it's back to mission running or rock crunching if this change goes through. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:03:00 -
[140] - Quote
30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.
So, weGÇÖll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, itGÇÖs possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably wonGÇÖt see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesnGÇÖt even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that weGÇÖll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.
All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.
Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.
Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock. |
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grootgroot
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:04:00 -
[141] - Quote
Wow. This is unexpected and very interesting. Nice one CCP.
It should cause some interesting economic side-effects too.
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Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:04:00 -
[142] - Quote
Also, WTF has the militia got to do with this transfer of faction control to the capsualeer community?
Not sure about other factions but buying custom office blueprints from say; Federation Customs or Amarr Trade Registry with loyalty points would make much more sense than grubbing LPs with the militia. |
Weaselior
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
920
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:04:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.
Regards Omen
this looks like it has a stupidly good passive tank: can that be nerfed some so that small gangs don't have most of their dps removed by shield regen? |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:04:00 -
[144] - Quote
Captain Byte wrote:Why not simplify the whole idea, and make a Customs Office a POS module. One Customs Office per system. Having one at each planet makes NO sense. That way you address all the Sov questions posted. It also answers fueling questions, and vulnerability questions. BTW, who gets the tax on launches?
Something that is a real pain, and I wish you were addressing is the lack of corporate PI. Everything is geared to the individual, forcing each character to handle their own import/export, rather than production being corporate oriented.
Make the PI interface simpler overall. The click fest we have now is riduculous. The Science and Industry overview should be useful for more than opening Planet Mode to reset production cycles. Show the detail for each planet module, and allow use to reset them from there. Oh, and get rid of the timer slider. Let us enter the time directly. While it may be 'pretty', it's not very functional.
Leave wormholes alone. The only thing they're good for is PI and ratting. And jacking the tax in hi-sec? PI is a worthless endeavor there now. You need to be in null sec or a wormhole before the concentrations let you make any money. Even then, you can make more ISK per hour ratting.
That said, if you persist in this change, I'm hoarding my level 4 PI production, because their value is going through the roof.
The very fact that the prices will go through the roof suggests that PI in highsec can be very profitable at times? Game Designer Team Pi |
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
41
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:05:00 -
[145] - Quote
@CCP Omen, you should join the #tweetfleet. There are people at work that have questions too. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Illectroculus Defined
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:06:00 -
[146] - Quote
OK this is the kind of PI development I like to see.
Now, my only suggestion is that since I imagine there'll be a mad rush to erect these things CCP should use this as and opportunity to clear out some of the stockpiles of P3's which were acquired from NPC sources prior to Tyrannis. Specifically if the Build for either structure required a pile of planetary vehicles then it would mean that the first wave of structures built would be subsidized by all those stockpiles and thus cheaper, then over time, PV stockpiles would run out and finally the price of that item would reflect the cost of manufacture.
I think Guidance Systems are also in the same category, but to a lesser extent.
And I'm pretty sure most robotics stockpiles are long used up. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:06:00 -
[147] - Quote
Sarina Berghil wrote:I'm a bit worried this may end up being yet another reason for individual players or small corps to stay put in high-sec. It's a pretty big nerf to ninja-PI.
On the bright side it's an interesting small-scale conflict driver and allows for some passive income for the owning corporation.
One idea: How about letting the owner control the tax rate within reasonable limits, but force access to be public regardless of standing. Non-owners would be able to use the planet, at an increased fee and risk of getting ganked. Owners would get secondary income at the cost of not having complete control of who uses it.
My biggest concern with the implementation described would be that the majority of planets would be simply be closed down to anyone but blues, and become yet another toy only available to big corps or alliances. Thats very different from the original idea that PI is for everyone.
In terms of HP, they seem in line with small control towers. Those can be killed by a small fleet with some effort. Sounds like a reasonable size.
this ^
publicy accessible and still profitable to owners. |
Boo mkII
Sense of Serendipity Echoes of Nowhere
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:07:00 -
[148] - Quote
This is an interesting concept, but I fear the way players will use it.
As it has been put forward, as implemented it could be easy for a block to remove all Customs Offices from a region. making it hard for PI to be done effectively for smaller entities. Launching goods from PI is not a very viable option.
I feel more viable options should be available when there is no custom office available (I am thinking especially about Low Sec and Wormholes).
Also, I thought when I started reading the blog, I thought that players would replace the Customs PNJ (the ones that scan for illegal goods) and was so excited about that... |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:07:00 -
[149] - Quote
Rees Noturana wrote:Will customs offices still appear on the overview as they do today? Yes Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:08:00 -
[150] - Quote
Dinta Zembo wrote:So this means that if I'm the only person using a bunch of planets for PI, I will have to personally invest hundreds of millions of ISK in to buying 5 customs offices? Don't think so.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Someone else could set them up and you just use them and pay taxes? Game Designer Team Pi |
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Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:08:00 -
[151] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Quote: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'.
It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. Regards Omen
The little guy may be a member of an existing corporation with real people, but without the roles and permissions to anchor structures. He may not want to give up the social and gameplay experience of his real corp because of PI.
Also I don't think EvE needs more reasons for new players or casual players to hug high-sec. There are too many reasons already. |
taque
Suddern Comfort
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:09:00 -
[152] - Quote
Quote:What we are doing
Making planetary taxation a profitable business!
well, i'm afraid the bigger corporations and alliances that already have much power will have another way for having more income and gaining power. there is nothing that will compensate the smaller players and corporations or atleast i don't see it.
i just hope it will work out fine for the gameplay in general. i srtarted PI to gain a little more steady income and it runs fine. i guess those changes will force players and corporations to cooperate more. |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
41
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:09:00 -
[153] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Omen wrote: We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.
Regards Omen
this looks like it has a stupidly good passive tank: can that be nerfed some so that small gangs don't have most of their dps removed by shield regen?
You are part of one of the biggest alliances and you want a softer target?
Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Lucas Kell
Lost Enterprises... SOLAR WING
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:10:00 -
[154] - Quote
This is all well and good, but this also means small corporations are going to get heavily hit, since they won't be able to afford to produce, anchor and guard these anywhere close to as easily as bigger corps and alliances. I thought the existing way PI was done was fine and fair, but this seems to be moving against that. Null sec will be remarkably unchanged for the most part as the sov holding alliances can guard these, (though its even more of a time sink to destroy and re-anchor these when you take over a system now), but low sec will end up with close to no PI, as you will just get pirates blowing them up for fun, they won't be worth the cash investment. |
Dradius Calvantia
Creative Cookie Procuring Rote Kapelle
41
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:11:00 -
[155] - Quote
I see this as an excellent opportunity as an objective for smaller gang, hit and run tactics. If the hit points are balanced right, it will allow small fleets to significantly impact a SOV holding alliance over time, by continuously impacting their POS fuel production and starving the enemy POSes to death instead of blobbing them.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
127
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:11:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.
What's the point of having an EHP buffer to shoot down in the first place?
You want three things:
1) It should be possible to attack this while giving the defender a time window to defend. (Question: How long?) 2) It should be required to assemble a sensible fleet size to do this. (Question: How large at least?) 3) It should give the defender the opportunity to set the stage for the actual engagement, the defense of the structure
(3) is well handled with the reinforce timer.
(1) and (2) are badly done with an EHP buffer: While it creates a time in which the defender can defend, that time goes down with "more people", so it simply rewards bringing "more people".
Make it a timer instead of an EHP buffer, and require at least N ships of neutral or negative standing with the owning entity within Mkm to start the timer. That's *exactly* what you want: "You need at least this amount of ships to attack, and the defender has exactly this amount of time to react. If he doesn't, you play again when it comes out of reinforced."
(FW-style, except without having to run randomly spawning timers until you accidentally hit 30 in a single system...) |
Raziphan Rebular
Crypsus
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:12:00 -
[157] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.
Regards Omen
Sure it is cheap and easy to make a 1 man corp but some of us like to be in a corporation to socialize with people. Why make things more complex by requiring corporate roles and have only the option of sending the isk to the corp wallet.
|
neurocite
FACTS on EVE RED.OverLord
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:13:00 -
[158] - Quote
so i did write a post , but the awesome new forums spat the dummy and deleted it , so bollox.
summary - might work in low sec , will f*** null sec PI a treat because of current alliance dynamics and holder corps. |
Raziphan Rebular
Crypsus
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:13:00 -
[159] - Quote
accidental double post |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:14:00 -
[160] - Quote
Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc. Game Designer Team Pi |
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XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:14:00 -
[161] - Quote
Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.
And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec. |
Dinta Zembo
Snuff Box
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:15:00 -
[162] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Dinta Zembo wrote:So this means that if I'm the only person using a bunch of planets for PI, I will have to personally invest hundreds of millions of ISK in to buying 5 customs offices? Don't think so.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Someone else could set them up and you just use them and pay taxes?
I think it would take 5 years just to get the original investment out if I'm the only customer. Not a great business.
Seems like you killed some PI as well. |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:16:00 -
[163] - Quote
Hmm, I never accounted for different tax rates at different locations. Guess I'll have to update my Profit Calculator for sure now, but I don't have the time, at least for another month. On the other hand, it does already allow you to change the tax rates. Well anyway, how will the new tax system work?
Personally, I thought instead of having these custom offices, one would have a PI ship. Upon warping to a planet with your structures on it, it would warp you to some random low orbit instead of the planet's normal warp in point. Then items launched at the spaceport would be redirected to your ship and dock with it instead of going to a customs office. You'd also be able to launch stuff down to the planet from this ship. So it'd be like a mobile customs office. Ah, perhaps in the future. |
Jaggins
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:16:00 -
[164] - Quote
Kaminu wrote:A good extension would be to set different taxes for different standings. i.E.
Corp = 0% Alliance = 2% +10 = 5% +5 = 10% 0 = no access -5 = no access -10 = no access
Why not selling the service to anyone that is willing to pay for it? If a player CO is placed in low sec why should the owner not earn more from player he dont know as from his friends?
This could really make NPC null and Lowsec PI interesting. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
127
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:17:00 -
[165] - Quote
... ok, I'm confused.
Quote:One point to note is that the CO is still operational while in reinforcement, so unless the aggressor sticks around for the entire time you'll just rep the office back up when they are gone. If this becomes a big problem, we have solutions to mitigate it.
Does this mean that if the office is in reinforced, it can get repped up to full shields even *during* reinforced mode, and then needs to be reinforced again? |
Lucas Kell
Lost Enterprises... SOLAR WING
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:17:00 -
[166] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Dinta Zembo wrote:So this means that if I'm the only person using a bunch of planets for PI, I will have to personally invest hundreds of millions of ISK in to buying 5 customs offices? Don't think so.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Someone else could set them up and you just use them and pay taxes? LOL. I wonder who these mysterious strangers will be running around chucking up PCOs everywhere? The best planets will get PCOs and the rest will just stop being used. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:17:00 -
[167] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:If I got this right, these structures will have a bit less EHP than small towers, and cost about 80m ISK to build and set up (including the BPC from a FW corp). There is basically zero risk going to one and trying to blow it up - even if you are alone in some small ship. It will just take a while.
I'm not sure this is particularly good. It invites "bored people" to just reinforce a few customs offices etc. when no one is around. It would likely be good to keep an eye on how that plays out. They might might need some kind of protection (make it possible to anchor POS batteries around it?)
Also, do customs offices continue to work while reinforced?
We will absolutely monitor this closely. Yes they continue to work while reinforced. Game Designer Team Pi |
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Raziphan Rebular
Crypsus
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:18:00 -
[168] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec.
Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over. |
muhuh Aihaken
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:20:00 -
[169] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Arkady Sadik wrote:If I got this right, these structures will have a bit less EHP than small towers, and cost about 80m ISK to build and set up (including the BPC from a FW corp). There is basically zero risk going to one and trying to blow it up - even if you are alone in some small ship. It will just take a while.
I'm not sure this is particularly good. It invites "bored people" to just reinforce a few customs offices etc. when no one is around. It would likely be good to keep an eye on how that plays out. They might might need some kind of protection (make it possible to anchor POS batteries around it?)
Also, do customs offices continue to work while reinforced? We will absolutely monitor this closely. Yes they continue to work while reinforced.
I guess these structures have no forcefield so that means a nyx fitted for max dps could reinforce one of these things (presuming 25% reinforcement) in about 10 mins. |
Jake Centauri
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:22:00 -
[170] - Quote
I'm sure a lot of hisec POS owners will throw up their hands on this one. If there is a dramatic increase in PI material prices and POS fuels, why feed the tower in the first place? Just shut down the tower and run hisec PI for profit.... |
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
41
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:23:00 -
[171] - Quote
@CCP Omen
Can you look at balancing the rocket delivery method? I haven't used it forever and I'm not in-game right now but if I remember right its pretty pathetic. It should be a viable option in some cases, such as planets that don't and probably won't get a CO and for smugglers. It'll also help during the transition period. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:23:00 -
[172] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.
So, weGÇÖll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, itGÇÖs possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably wonGÇÖt see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesnGÇÖt even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that weGÇÖll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.
All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.
Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.
Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock.
Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves. Game Designer Team Pi |
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Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:24:00 -
[173] - Quote
Yet another blob-able structure. Why not just make it a somewhat weaker structure that requires a subcapital fleet via, say, an acceleration gate or some other such method? I just can't see this as a feasible way to make PI more interesting. If anything, it will become more like playing SBU tag out in sov space. Who would want more of that?
I can see how this might have some synergy with DUST514, but since I wasn't really a big fan of the concept of DUST514 anyway, I don't really care. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:25:00 -
[174] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Omen wrote: We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.
Regards Omen
this looks like it has a stupidly good passive tank: can that be nerfed some so that small gangs don't have most of their dps removed by shield regen? The shield regen is extremly slow! Game Designer Team Pi |
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Metis Laxon
Zero Point Group
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:25:00 -
[175] - Quote
Fantastic change :D Finally some more needed interactivity for PI |
Tammarr
Trident RMBK
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:25:00 -
[176] - Quote
How will this work with aggression in lowsec?
I see militia corps, with the access to the bpcs dropping customs gadget on some planets.
Now imagine it happens, I would assume the bad boys go gcc.
As the office is coming out of reinforce time, the militia has gathered a defense.
The bad boys show up, they are not blinky/pirates by default. If Militia fires first to try to lock down gates or keep the offending force from setting up on grid: Militia goes GCC. GCC militia cant be remote repaired without getting huge FACTION standing hits, a signifcant disadvantage there.
Also ofc applies to regular corps/players that dont want to go gcc. You must wait for the bad boys to gcc. Or they can just wait for you to bring shiny RR ships on grid to rep office shields up... and volley them, since you cant counter them setting up on grid without going gcc if they are not pirates.
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
116
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:26:00 -
[177] - Quote
Snowflake Tem wrote:Also, WTF has the militia got to do with this transfer of faction control to the capsualeer community?
Not sure about other factions but buying custom office blueprints from say; Federation Customs or Amarr Trade Registry with loyalty points would make much more sense than grubbing LPs with the militia.
^^ This |
Orakkus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:26:00 -
[178] - Quote
It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?
Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best. |
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:27:00 -
[179] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Sir HappyPants wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Sir HappyPants wrote:CCP Omen wrote: =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000
* Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000
Regards Omen
That would take a long time for a lone supercap pilot for anyone who may be wondering... I doubt too many drive-by-POCO bimbing will happen with HP this high... 12 minutes to reinforce with a solo nyx is not "a long time". 12 minutes in space and potentially vulnerable, especially solo? Long enough to make some (most?) supercap owners think twice imo. That said, with HP values that high, it'll be another thing that will "need" a blob. We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob. Regards Omen
It's not that difficult to figure out, just have entry to the customs area through an acceleration gate to remove capitals. Perhaps even the gate could have a toll depending on non-industrial ship class meaning that large attacking forces would be forced to pay their way in. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:27:00 -
[180] - Quote
Personally hate this idea.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of turning it over to players. I can see this as a very interesting mechanic. Now a low sec pirate corp can have a new income stream. wanna do PI in pirate infested area A? You will have to pay them to do so. Pirate corp B likes Pirate corp A's territory? They can take over and claim the planets as their own.
The BIG issue I have with the setup is no defenses. Yes I understand you want people to fight with ships, but the big issue is the global nature of the game.
Unless you are in a huge corp with players from all over the globe, you are likely going to have serious holes in your corp's playtime. A corp from a TZ other than yours can simply go in and trash a CO without repurcussion.
It seems dumb to make players have to invest effort and isk into a structure, and then have no way of defending it. At least with a POS I can make a choice. I can make a POS with lots of structures to make stuff, or I can make one with lots of defenses. One is more vulnerable but profitable, the other is less profitable but safer. But I can choose how I want to deter people from attacking my structure.
But these new CO's I will have to setup and just hope for the best?
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Arul Tinoga
Tinoga Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:30:00 -
[181] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: The corporation that owns the customs office get the taxed ISK in their corp wallet Any plans on making CO taxes be payable from a corp wallet on the other side?
<- This alt has only a small personal wallet and it's such a hassle to transfer money from the corp wallet every time just for PI. |
Rhavas
The Corporation of Noble Sentiments Sleeper Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:32:00 -
[182] - Quote
Love the player-driven approach even if it is going to kill my income stream. Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome.
Questions: 1) Looks like we can now launch and avoid customs (subject to ugly volume restrictions) - please confirm. 2) Courier contracts at customs offices? This is the feature really needed/lacking from PI production. Coming? 3) When does this go live? 4) Are you sending Vaseline to POS owners? They'll need it when we producers factor this in to fuel pricing... |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:32:00 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.
So, weGÇÖll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, itGÇÖs possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably wonGÇÖt see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesnGÇÖt even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that weGÇÖll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.
All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.
Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.
Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock. Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves.
Agreed :)
50% is the current contribution. How will that change when the supply coming from non-high sec adjusts to the mechanics change and surpases high-sec contribution? Again, if I was a more active player pulling in money from many different sources this would be a much smaller concern. The state of the economy affects the casual player more than anyone since their money flow is much slower (not necessarily smaller).
Is there any word on possible UI improvements that will be released along with this new feature? Hilmar did mention in his post that the player base would be heard on calls for improvements for existing features. |
inexistin
Rubbish and Garbage Removal Atlas.
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:34:00 -
[184] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Bloodpetal wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc. Mimidae Risk Solutions in first. :) The major issue, I have to tell you, with that thinking - as a Mercenary already, is that the value has to definitely increase enough to want to hire Mercs to do it. It's also the BLOB factor. The reality is, no Merc can outblob a major alliance/crew. it is just not happening (Unless you're PL I guess). Without some control on the BLOB factor, there is no way that you're going to stop griefing from happening. I think you're going to have to rethink that carefully, especially for Null Sec. HEY< WE"RE ALL BORED< LET"S GO SHOOT SOME CUSTOMS OFFICES IN NPC PLANET SPACE. I love the idea, but you're not going to stop the griefing by simply using the reinforcement timer function. It's going to become a sov mechanic all over again. The biggest numbers win. Over and over. You need to fix that and make it viable in other ways. Appreciate the feedback. It's a tough nut, we have some ideas for the future, so hopefully, while there are no protection, those fights will be relatively isolated to particular systems in space. The value dynamic is very interesting, if alliances terrorize customs offices, there will be fewer around and the prices go up so bigger incentives to set one up again and protect it.
Think of it this way: If an alliance depends on a large number of COs to supply their pos fuel, then they are screwed if another alliance besieges them because each CO can produce only a limited amount of fuel. Therefore, multiple are needed and if a rather small percentage of them are attacked, the defender cannot really rescue them. This way, the alliance will have one of two choices: either let it's POS' go offline or import stuff from Jita. Prices will skyrocket and no one will want to use POS' anymore except for cases where they are extremely needed (staging POS', high ends, etc).
I hate it when prices spike. It is not good for any of us non-tycoons.
Also, managing a large number of these things will be a huge problem and headache if done at corporate level.
|
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
287
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:34:00 -
[185] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen
These HP values (and the length of the reinforcement timers) seem a bit high to me, tbh. The problems are:
-In nullsec and lowsec, i don't really feel most people will care about destroying them, as they're fairly low-value targets and griefing someone's PI isn't a huge deal. Moreover, being as there's a reinforcement timer, having a large amount of HP seems somewhat unjustified. Lowering the HP and timers would make it more enticing to blow them up.
-In w-space, the long reinforcement timers are going to make it very hard to attack them as a 'roaming gang' style. You can't get a connection to a system, reinforce the offices, blow them up, and still evac before your wormhole in collapses. The HP amounts are going to make it problematic as well, as even with a ten-man gang of dps t3s or bombers you're still talking 20-30 minutes per office at anywhere up to ten or more planets. Making the timers shorter and reducing the HP would make it more feasable to clean out customs offices as a means to provoke a fight.
Incidentally, are customs office kills going to generate killmails? |
Taoi Khan
SACHEN. Mean Coalition
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:34:00 -
[186] - Quote
Just bought a Moros to kill these 80 mil + Customs Office Fly safe |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:35:00 -
[187] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:...
Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.... Structure shooting (especially ~7.5M in shield HP) is *never* fun unless blobbing with caps for a quick reinforcement.
Anything less than a bomber / BS blob will take a *very* long time to reinforce one of these structures.
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:36:00 -
[188] - Quote
Rhavas wrote:Love the player-driven approach even if it is going to kill my income stream. Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome.
Questions: 1) Looks like we can now launch and avoid customs (subject to ugly volume restrictions) - please confirm. 2) Courier contracts at customs offices? This is the feature really needed/lacking from PI production. Coming? 3) When does this go live? 4) Are you sending Vaseline to POS owners? They'll need it when we producers factor this in to fuel pricing...
Word on important features like this would be welcome indeed. |
Aynen
SI Radio Split Infinity.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:36:00 -
[189] - Quote
Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. |
Lucas Kell
Lost Enterprises... SOLAR WING
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:36:00 -
[190] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves. Since High Sec taxes are doubled, you will see an increase in price anyway. You will also see a faster drain on high sec planets, as all of the small corps and individuals that venture out to low sec for PI now move back into high sec, which will decreas supply without decreasing demand, which again increases price. Basically PI materials are going to go up in price quickly.
How the hell have you managed to take the once system in EVE that is working fine and do the same thing to it that you did to the rest of EVE to cause the current upsets that people have?
Personally I'll be unaffected by this, as I produce all my PI in nullsec, but I can see the damage this is going to cause for the high sec/ low sec popluation and I say shame on you! |
|
Ruairi iliffe
VALHALLA'S Wrath True Reign
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:37:00 -
[191] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: The Customs Office is very relevant in our future plans (don't dare go in to specifics right here, right now) so increased capability and costs will probably be added in the future.
Its the fact that in ALL the DUST media you keep showing an Orbital Elevator isnt it? That at some point we can upgrade the Offices to become either a full fledged station, i mean, We knew at some point we are to have a location in space for us to fight over, and PI control would be determined by who controls both the ground and sky, the fact we can attack them with this idea means its part of the set up to full interaction, heck even that was shown in the trailers.
EDIT: Also that leads into why this is Low sec and 0.0 only for the charges and ownership....
/tinfoil hat off
Anyway that was my random 'it all makes sense' moment. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:38:00 -
[192] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:...
Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.... Structure shooting (especially ~7.5M in shield HP) is *never* fun unless blobbing with caps for a quick reinforcement. Anything less than a bomber / BS blob will take a *very* long time to reinforce one of these structures.
"fun at first" read: "wtf are you thinking CCP? We've talked about this before." |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:38:00 -
[193] - Quote
*snip* |
Dinta Zembo
Snuff Box
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:39:00 -
[194] - Quote
Taoi Khan wrote:Just bought a Moros to kill these 80 mil + Customs Office Fly safe
Locator agents, go! |
Pipip Mendicant
Kindred of Honor PURgE Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:39:00 -
[195] - Quote
Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy. |
Liandra Xi
The New Era C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:40:00 -
[196] - Quote
The question I have is this: in 0.0 only the owning alliance who has sov in the system can use PI on the planets in the system anyway, so as far as I can tell the standings thing in 0.0 is useless, unless it now allows you to let allies use your planets where they couldn't before. Would love a proper confirmation on how that is intended to actually work in nullsec. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:40:00 -
[197] - Quote
Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.
wish I could double-like this post ^ |
Shar Tegral
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:41:00 -
[198] - Quote
I like the change I just think it is the wrong time to do it.
First improve PI so that it is not a chore, then add additional risk complications.
This sequence, as proposed, is just another form of CQ. |
Dinta Zembo
Snuff Box
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:42:00 -
[199] - Quote
Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
+1000000! THIS! |
Midnight Firestarter
Anger Management
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:42:00 -
[200] - Quote
So unless you in an Alliance or hire PL ...... 0.0 is no longer avaliable for PI ? All they need to do is drop a few Alliance Customs offices and the systems are locked out ?.
As a small fish I prefered the old system and all you needed to do was to allow per corp and per alliance access to the Customs Office ...
/me claps hands for another good move CCP |
|
Dragnkat
HAMMER STAR BLADE Universal Paranoia Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:43:00 -
[201] - Quote
Rees Noturana wrote:@CCP Omen
Can you look at balancing the rocket delivery method? I haven't used it forever and I'm not in-game right now but if I remember right its pretty pathetic. It should be a viable option in some cases, such as planets that don't and probably won't get a CO and for smugglers. It'll also help during the transition period.
Second this, I'm not going to take the time and the risk to keep my blockade runner in low sec trying to rocket launch off multiple planets. It';s not worth the time (i only have a couple hours of playtime before and after work) and it's not worth the risk of playing pirate dodgeball and hunting cans with a BR either.
And I thought that was the whole point of EVE? Why am I after taking the time to train my skills specifically so I can risk ninja'ing PI goods out of low sec being penalized for it by this change that now requires me to try and get on the good side of another corp just to move my stuff. And that's provided they can even be bothered to set up the CO in the first place. Or be forced to sit there and rocket hunt all day long? At that point even high sec PI would be worth it just to avoid the time sink, oh wait double taxes makes what was already a system impossible to make a profit off of even less practical!
Screws over the ninjas and smugglers and just makes even PI part of the endless megacorp blob warfare. And that much harder for smaller corps to try and get anywhere.
Omen this idea is flat out horrible, all you're doing is going to murder low sec PI and just send everyone back to hugging high sec or running missions. If this change goes through I can tell you right now I'll be scrapping my entire PI setup, I won't be putting up with high sec tax hikes, and this little guy supplier won't be putting my advanced goods on the market anymore.
|
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:43:00 -
[202] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen My personal preference would be making it SOV-UNrelated.
What will happen when a planet had NO customs office btw? You just need to shoot everything into space yourself? |
Jokerface666
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:44:00 -
[203] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
I'd say you can only have sov if yiu own all customs offices in that system, you can take siv only if at least half the customs offices in that system are gone. would give taking sov a huge strategix aspect. and lots moar pewpew ------------------------------w00t w00t rapetrain------------------------------ |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:44:00 -
[204] - Quote
As I think more about it - they should just be a special version of a POS tower with the following limitations:
- Only anchorable at a planet's warp-in grid (and automatically centered on the grid). - No shield bubble like a normal POS tower. - Only batteries can be anchored around it (ECM, guns, etc).
Then give us (4) sizes so that corps/alliances can choose the level of defenses that they want to allow by anchoring larger variants. The base size should have about 1/2 the PG/CPU of an existing small tower (a.k.a. a "micro" POCO), then the S/M/L variants should be similar to existing towers. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:46:00 -
[205] - Quote
Chaos Incarnate wrote:
These HP values (and the length of the reinforcement timers) seem a bit high to me, tbh. The problems are:
-In nullsec and lowsec, i don't really feel most people will care about destroying them, as they're fairly low-value targets and griefing someone's PI isn't a huge deal. Moreover, being as there's a reinforcement timer, having a large amount of HP seems somewhat unjustified. Lowering the HP and timers would make it more enticing to blow them up.
-In w-space, the long reinforcement timers are going to make it very hard to attack them as a 'roaming gang' style. You can't get a connection to a system, reinforce the offices, blow them up, and still evac before your wormhole in collapses. The HP amounts are going to make it problematic as well, as even with a ten-man gang of dps t3s or bombers you're still talking 20-30 minutes per office at anywhere up to ten or more planets. Making the timers shorter and reducing the HP would make it more feasable to clean out customs offices as a means to provoke a fight.
Incidentally, are customs office kills going to generate killmails?
I would support this ONLY if they in turn give a way to setup defenses. As I said in an earlier post my big issue is that you are asking people to invest time (build, transport setup) and isk into a structure that they have little control over its defense. I cannot choose a way to deter attack.
take for example a WH as you mention above. This happens to be my situation. I have a corp with a bunch of friends. We all live in the same general timezone. So there are large portions of time where were we are all offline. I factored that in when building a POS with defenses. But now there would be nothing stopping anyone from just attacking all the CO's while we are all asleep. It doesn't add any fun, or pew pew, just grief.
In reality I could see adding guns to make it even more fun. It now makes warping away to a safe more risky, better not pick a planet or you could go BOOM when you land. |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:46:00 -
[206] - Quote
Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.
I like that, it keeps the existing infrastructure intact, and allows for smoother transition. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:47:00 -
[207] - Quote
Dragnkat wrote:Rees Noturana wrote:@CCP Omen
Can you look at balancing the rocket delivery method? I haven't used it forever and I'm not in-game right now but if I remember right its pretty pathetic. It should be a viable option in some cases, such as planets that don't and probably won't get a CO and for smugglers. It'll also help during the transition period. Second this, I'm not going to take the time and the risk to keep my blockade runner in low sec trying to rocket launch off multiple planets. It';s not worth the time (i only have a couple hours of playtime before and after work) and it's not worth the risk of playing pirate dodgeball and hunting cans with a BR either. And I thought that was the whole point of EVE? Why am I after taking the time to train my skills specifically so I can risk ninja'ing PI goods out of low sec being penalized for it by this change that now requires me to try and get on the good side of another corp just to move my stuff. And that's provided they can even be bothered to set up the CO in the first place. Or be forced to sit there and rocket hunt all day long? At that point even high sec PI would be worth it just to avoid the time sink, oh wait double taxes makes what was already a system impossible to make a profit off of even less practical! Screws over the ninjas and smugglers and just makes even PI part of the endless megacorp blob warfare. And that much harder for smaller corps to try and get anywhere. Omen this idea is flat out horrible, all you're doing is going to murder low sec PI and just send everyone back to hugging high sec or running missions. If this change goes through I can tell you right now I'll be scrapping my entire PI setup, I won't be putting up with high sec tax hikes, and this little guy supplier won't be putting my advanced goods on the market anymore.
You're one of those people I talked about getting hit kinda hard with the proposed changes. There's nothing being offered to these people for essentially nerfing their way of playing the game to the point that they can't play. This change only offers large amounts of risk, with comparably little to no reward. |
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:48:00 -
[208] - Quote
Ruairi iliffe wrote:CCP Omen wrote: The Customs Office is very relevant in our future plans (don't dare go in to specifics right here, right now) so increased capability and costs will probably be added in the future. Its the fact that in ALL the DUST media you keep showing an Orbital Elevator isnt it? That at some point we can upgrade the Offices to become either a full fledged station, i mean, We knew at some point we are to have a location in space for us to fight over, and PI control would be determined by who controls both the ground and sky, the fact we can attack them with this idea means its part of the set up to full interaction, heck even that was shown in the trailers. EDIT: Also that leads into why this is Low sec and 0.0 only for the charges and ownership.... /tinfoil hat off Anyway that was my random 'it all makes sense' moment.
The answer is 42. Game Designer Team Pi |
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:54:00 -
[209] - Quote
Like the "invulnerable to super capitals" idea.
Suggestions:
1. The warp in acts like a warp in to an anomoly (reduce nanofaggotry) 2. No cynos directly at customs office. (unless people do this already for PI ? ) |
Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient Electus Matari
72
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:54:00 -
[210] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc.
It should be lootable when the CO comes out of reinforcement "Watch what they do not what they say. Talk is cheap, and while I do like the current activity of the Devs it really doesn't mean much unless we start seeing results."-á |
|
Addergebroed
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:54:00 -
[211] - Quote
So this basically is CCP Shrugged; PI interdiction? |
MichaelaB2
Space Exploitations and Examinations
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:54:00 -
[212] - Quote
Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.
Exactly what I was thinking!
I LIKE! |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:56:00 -
[213] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc.
Station hangar! What about those of us who live in a wormhole? A station hangar is not exactly around the corner!
|
Audrey Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:56:00 -
[214] - Quote
I'm liking this idea. I'm hoping any further changes to PI promote small scale warfare. |
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:56:00 -
[215] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?
Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best.
Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one. Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Tammarr
Trident RMBK
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 15:57:00 -
[216] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Like the "invulnerable to super capitals" idea.
Suggestions: 1. The warp in acts like a warp in to an anomoly 2. No cynos directly at customs office. (unless people do this already for PI ? )
Anomaly would mean you cant warp to fleet members >150km off. This would only encourage nanofleet and put other means at a disadvantage. +15 for not allowing supercaps ^^ |
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 15:58:00 -
[217] - Quote
Well as a wormhole dweller this has some major impacts which will also impact the t3 market in addition to the t2 market.
First im not opposed to building these things or having them blown up, personally I like the conflict they can generate.
My big concern is with the bpc release.
First how many runs?
Second with such a large number of these bpcs coming from such a small source they will be a huge bottleneck benefiting incursion runners who all ready make isk comparable to null and wh space in high sec. Also after the inital demand is done why would anyone cash in there lp on them when they could cash in on other more valuable lp rewards leading to the possibility of no ability to make more customs offices for periods of time.
I think that at very least the corps offering bpcs should be expanded. Let them come from mission runners as well like rodens.
The cost of these things will still stay prohibitive with the lack of pi goo but at least it gives those in wh space and null the ability to get what we need by running missions, not having to drop our activities to go play incursions and faction warfare. |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
105
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Posted - 2011.10.18 15:58:00 -
[218] - Quote
If we blow them up do they drop everything or is it chance based like blowing up players' ships? |
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 15:58:00 -
[219] - Quote
double post |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
19
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Posted - 2011.10.18 15:58:00 -
[220] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Dinta Zembo wrote:So this means that if I'm the only person using a bunch of planets for PI, I will have to personally invest hundreds of millions of ISK in to buying 5 customs offices? Don't think so.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Someone else could set them up and you just use them and pay taxes? LOL. I wonder who these mysterious strangers will be running around chucking up PCOs everywhere? The best planets will get PCOs and the rest will just stop being used.
Correct, but it doesn't have to be you that sets up the PCO at the best planet, it could still be someone else. Game Designer Team Pi |
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Dragnkat
HAMMER STAR BLADE Universal Paranoia Alliance
4
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Posted - 2011.10.18 15:59:00 -
[221] - Quote
Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.
Adding my voice to this one as well for a like. Why not just leave the system as is at first? then if a player corp wishes a customs office and the associated risk their customs office replaces the npc one?
Lets you and the big corps play with your new shiny, and keeps the system in place for ninjas as well.
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MichaelaB2
Space Exploitations and Examinations
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 15:59:00 -
[222] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Orakkus wrote:It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?
Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best. Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.
So current offices will stay there until someone decides to step in and control them? |
Lucas Kell
Lost Enterprises... SOLAR WING
7
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:00:00 -
[223] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Orakkus wrote:It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?
Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best. Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one. Then don't have it at all:
1. Don't remove the existing PCOs 2. Leave low sec and high sec alone 3. Remove/decrease tax from wh space (incentive to explore) 4. Hand new tax options to sov holding in low sec on existing PCOs (though perhaps base tax remains in place going to concord to prevent it being to big a boost) 5. Don't make PCOs attackable. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
19
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:03:00 -
[224] - Quote
Raziphan Rebular wrote:XavierVE wrote:Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec. Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.
That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:06:00 -
[225] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:[quote=Raziphan Rebular][quote=XavierVE] Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. . If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen
And we should be playing with pos fuels which affect t2/t3 markets when it took ccp how many years to look at supers and hybrids? |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
180
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:06:00 -
[226] - Quote
I don't see this going over well in Nullsec, considering how frustrating getting these things up will be, and how we're going to have to install one on every single planet we want to do PI on. Not to mention how many random roving annoyances will pop them just to be a jerk. Will we be able to place defenses up? Get alerts when they're getting attacked? Have a chance to repair them?
I just don't know. It sounds like a fun idea, but at the same time, it sounds like it could make it a bit more difficult than it should be. Wonder if there could be a "default" NPC Customs Office that we could upgrade instead. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
19
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:06:00 -
[227] - Quote
Rhavas wrote:Love the player-driven approach even if it is going to kill my income stream. Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome.
Questions: 1) Looks like we can now launch and avoid customs (subject to ugly volume restrictions) - please confirm. 2) Courier contracts at customs offices? This is the feature really needed/lacking from PI production. Coming? 3) When does this go live? 4) Are you sending Vaseline to POS owners? They'll need it when we producers factor this in to fuel pricing...
1) confirmed 2) Not planned, good idea though 3) I'm not sure if I am at liberty to tell, but it's ready to go 4) If it turns out to be too much of an upset, we will take action. Game Designer Team Pi |
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Jake Centauri
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:07:00 -
[228] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:XavierVE wrote:Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec. Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over. That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen
Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?" |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
2
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:07:00 -
[229] - Quote
Omen,
I hope you will seed some ready made customs ofices on the market for the first few days/weeks. There are a limited number of planets in the game, but there are obviously lots of people using several planets at the moment basically for free. In future you will have to manage in low/null/w-space the number of offices your corp puts up, and so on. However, immediately, this is going to cause a gigantic crunch in POS fuel supplies for a short while until gantries are rolled out, and the BPC's purchased with LP's, manufactured etc.
I say this as a w-space dweller. While I think it is way cool that there will be more things to shoot, and this is a buff for FW, there's also clearly a need for a rush of supply upon deployment. Eg, there are 9 planets in our wormhole system, we can probably trim down to using 5 of them. So we need 5 gantries and upgrade to 5 CO's. If we do not do this once you magically remove the CO's, we run out of POS fuel.
Great.
Other comments: If you allow ANY form of defence to be anchored around CO's this will remove the ability, in w-space, of ganking people's PI haulers. I say this because your average corp will anchor a dissy and some small AC batteries around the office, and this is enough to gank anything stupid enough to decloak within range of the CO. Just sayin'
Second, the HP's are not too great, but still ridiculous for griefing unless you run medium or large gangs. We regularly bash small towers and it is a minimum of 2 hours with 6-8 BS's for a small tower. Clearing out a system in w-space after removing a corp's POS will become ridonkulously boring.
The reinforce timer idea is unfortunate. This means people can set the RF to come out during their prime time, which is defacto a way of waging RF timer warfare AFK. Second, it would be better to make it use stront, because that will consume stront.
To all those whining about this nerfing the lone operators: train Corporations skills to level 1, start your own corp, fling your PI alt in there, and get to it. Or suck the PI costs.
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dbrummer
ASTARTES CORP
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:08:00 -
[230] - Quote
I'm not sure I fully understand the mechanics of the Player Owned Customs Office. I'm part of a corp that lives out of NPC 0.0 space, how would this affect us? Are all of our existing PI installations going to be destroyed when this feature is enabled? If not, how do we get our goo off if there's no POCO anchored? I feel like we need more details on this change so we can fully understand the changes.
I'm like a few other people here and am very limited in my playing time but enjoy the passive income PI generates. If this change requires more time or makes it more difficult to make isk from PI then why use it? I'm just worried that the PI income I use to buy PvP ships will disappear. |
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Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:08:00 -
[231] - Quote
May be not your intention, but it is what's going to happen. Mark my words!
All the small producers (1 alt corps and the like), are going to be screwed. Case in point, I produce PI in a C1, I share the hole with 4 other corps. Right now we are at least 4 guys cranking out PI (one for each corp). After the "nerf", the one who places the CO up first will effectively knock the other 3 out of the market. Which will only increase PI prices for the PO owner which will motivate him in NOT sharing any of the offices.
Thinking that they will share for 9% when they can hog all the PI produced and get more than that 9% through market prices increase is just naive. Jeez, you guys don't seem to notice what's going on in game right now with Oxytopes and moon goo. If someone can control the market they will!!
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:XavierVE wrote:Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec. Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over. That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen
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TehOnion
American Heroes
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:10:00 -
[232] - Quote
I like this. PI is harder to do, but you generate more *Shtuff* per planet. You can also shut down other peoples PI (which you can't do at the moment unless Dust is still planned to come out? )
It will be possible to starve out people in WH space by taking out the structure and it also promotes small gang fights because of their relatively low HP and the fact you can't stack 100 guns on them.
The only issue I see is if people attack it while the owners are offline, but if I understand the reinforced timer thing that eliminates that for the most part.
-Increased risk -Increased return -Player run -Promotes small gang PVP
We need more updated like this. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
21
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:10:00 -
[233] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.
So, weGÇÖll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, itGÇÖs possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably wonGÇÖt see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesnGÇÖt even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that weGÇÖll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.
All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.
Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.
Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock. Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves. Agreed :) 50% is the current contribution. How will that change when the supply coming from non-high sec adjusts to the mechanics change and surpases high-sec contribution? Again, if I was a more active player pulling in money from many different sources this would be a much smaller concern. The state of the economy affects the casual player more than anyone since their money flow is much slower (not necessarily smaller). Is there any word on possible UI improvements that will be released along with this new feature? Hilmar did mention in his post that the player base would be heard on calls for improvements for existing features.
What I can say is that we have improved the UI that specifically concern the Customs Office. I can't speak for other features I'm afraid... Game Designer Team Pi |
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Thogn Thu
Space Crickets League of Entities
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:12:00 -
[234] - Quote
The thread was going really fast when I started taking this down, so apologies if I missed some responses that address some of my questions/issues.
At first glance, I really don't like this. This whole idea makes a fair amount of sense for null/WH space given their "frontier" status, but I don't think it fits for lowsec, which is still empire space when all is said and done. To me the Customs Office seems like it should fall into the same category as a NPC station in empire space. Players can't build them, players can't blow them up. In null/WH space, everything goes. If I'm reading the blog correctly, minimum standings on the CO could be set to deny folks you don't like. That essentially makes it a planetary sovereignty structure. If we can't claim sovereignty over a system in empire space, why should we be able to claim sovereignty over a planet?
I'm in a small and what is essentially a personal corp since most of the other members are fairly inactive. I do PI in lowsec because there's a good balance between risk and reward. Adding in the CO structure costs and potential defense costs makes for more risk and much less reward (at least in the short term), as does having to pay a potentially unfriendly entity who gouges prices. It seems like yet another way that a large entity can totally screw the little guy just trying to pull in some cash. The response that "little guys should be in highsec" is crap. From what I've seen, highsec planets are terrible compared with planets in low/null/WH space, and in my opinion, not worth the time.
The risk is even further increased with griefers who just want to blow up "that stupid carebear structure" just for some lulz, and no other gain. Granted, if the structures are hard enough to kill, that may be minimized, but there are still plenty of folks with supers that just love drinking up carebear tears and would do it just for laughs.
This just seems to be another game mechanic that will benefit the strong at the expense of the weak.
I agree with previous comments that there should be some sort of automated defense since you can't count on the "invulnerable because I have an outpost or ihub" factor.
General questions:
1) Why is there a two-step building process for deploying the customs office? From what I understand, you acquire/manufacture a gantry, anchor it, then upgrade it to a customs office where you supply additional materials. Why not just make the CO an anchorable structure on its own? 2) Will this introduce some mechanism for moving commodities between players (contract, corp hangar, trades, etc)? 3) Is there any consideration for making the amount of cargo you can launch into space without a CO larger? 500m3 is stupid small. 4) Will there be a new mechanism introduced to import cargo to a planet without using the CO? 5) The blog says 'The space port GÇ£hangarGÇ¥ is gone'. Does that mean the space port structure on the planet has no cargo capacity? Or does that just mean that the middle pane of the "move stuff to/from the CO" window is gone? 6) What is meant by "we have increased the bandwidth on all planetary links by a factor of five"?
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Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
182
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:12:00 -
[235] - Quote
Midnight Hope wrote:May be not your intention, but it is what's going to happen. Mark my words!
All the small producers (1 alt corps and the like), are going to be screwed. Case in point, I produce PI in a C1, I share the hole with 4 other corps. Right now we are at least 4 guys cranking out PI (one for each corp). After the "nerf", the one who places the CO up first will effectively knock the other 3 out of the market. Which will only increase PI prices for the PO owner which will motivate him in NOT sharing any of the offices.
In theory, the other 3 will shoot the heck out of the 4th's CO, and after this cycle repeats, they'll eventually agree to disagree and leave it fair.
Alternately... is it confirmed it's only one CO per planet? Doesn't make much sense that way, as you'd naturally have competition in this sort of marketplace. |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
74
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:13:00 -
[236] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: 3) I'm not sure if I am at liberty to tell, but it's ready to go.
so it was the secret CSMs knew ?
i'm really worried about the impact on short term after the launch, as people have said we will have issues for weeks or maybe months until the new infrasctrucrures and prices are stabiliszed... and that will impact lots of things.
and if the idea of having a "mini station" i can manage is nice, but knowing it cost 80M minimum, for ONE planet, and can be destroyed easily by anyone... you should boost the production rate at least... and boost low sec a lot given it risk the be the more attacked place, and anyway need boost.
Xython wrote: Alternately... is it confirmed it's only one CO per planet? Doesn't make much sense that way, as you'd naturally have competition in this sort of marketplace.
if you can put more than one, you have no reason to destroy the one of the others. it may however be a better idea if they want PI to be about economic and not warfare... but they said politics, so i suppose that no. |
Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:13:00 -
[237] - Quote
Rees Noturana wrote:I vote for sovereignty holders not having an automatic blockade on foreign customs offices. This gives another item to fight over during sovereignty wars and if you aren't paying attention to your buffer zones you'll see squatters moving in and taking over planets. However, I suppose there are DUST mechanics being worked on that we can't see yet.
This is how I see it. I don't know about other groups, but unless it has actual influence in sovereign status of a system I can't see GS wasting fleets running around shooting the things all day long. Especially since ganking ice miners has more effect and needs less effort.
So I presume that all customs offices presently in null and low-sec will be removed when this change takes place?
(Farms & Fields. Mittens was right, farms & fields.)
PS
As long as we're on the subject of PI, how about making it so you use PI materials to build all outpost improvement modules as well as the outposts themselves? I was amazed to find that those items are still sold by NPC s, and it would be a boost to PI to make them constructable as well. You can also make those blueprints available via FW & CONCORD LP stores like you plan to here for a boost in their value. Make the foundation, pedestal, and monument platforms CONCORD items, and the various upgrade platforms FW items. |
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:13:00 -
[238] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
Non reserved, I think it'll make things more interesting. |
pipvac
Sacred Templars RED.OverLord
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:13:00 -
[239] - Quote
What an awesome idea!
Now big alliances, corporations and powerblocks can monopolise the best planets, as well as the moons, stations, etc.
And without a significant defense structure in place its a new idea that just keeps on giving.
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Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:14:00 -
[240] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.
Regards Omen
If that assumption is the outcome I think that would be perfect.
I'm worrying that most would simply lock off the planets whether they use them or not, either to control the economy or prevent enemies to get ressources. Some may leave a few planets open as bait for traps.
I like the general idea of the changes, I just think this implementation encourages protectionism more than free trade. |
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Reservefj40
Rapier Innovations
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:14:00 -
[241] - Quote
While this is a great idea and I love giving more control to the players, I can't help but feel you are giving more control to the BLOBS.
Is there a limit on how many a corporation can control? If not, then he who has the biggest blob has the contol over all PI, prices and a huge isk tap.
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Bilaz
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
2
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:16:00 -
[242] - Quote
what we need for eve - more stupid structures to build, haul and grind . So suppose that i'm solo-industrialist and have 5-6 planet factory - to use that **** i would have to build 6 ******* customs, pay ~300mil isk, haul it **** knows where, support them and lose them in 2 days after someone with 10+ supercaps (and nothing better to do) notice them? no thats just perfect.
Suppose i live in angel space - why they would allow some capsuleers to have custums of their own on their turf? let them make taxes according to their standing towards you.
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Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
63
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:17:00 -
[243] - Quote
Dratic wrote:I personally do not like the idea of defender getting a near perfect time when it comes out of reinforcement with them not being in system when a POCO is reinforced. It just reinforces the afk nature like the current sov system which is flawed. The attacker has no influence on the timer where as with stront in pos' you could get a preferable time if the defender wasnt there to adjust the timer. There needs to be a way for the attacker to influence the timer.
Without defenders getting to influence the timer, small groups will have no hope of defending. Most smaller corps and alliances are all one timezone, leaving at least 12 hours a day when they are unable to play Eve, and therefore unable to defend structures for entirely Out Of Game reasons. Forcing small groups to blob up would be counter-productive.
If they go with the numbers we've seen, these things will crumble if anyone sneezes at them. Great, targets for subcaps. Unfortunately that means that the AFK Cloakering Brigade will also be able to reinforce these things fairly quickly, and just cloak up if anyone tries to defend it. The griefing opportunities are amazing. Black ops groups absolutely will reinforce these things just for lols, with no intention of engaging in small gang combat. Being able to ensure that the structure comes out of reinforced when the defenders are able to be online is the only defence they'll have. |
XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:17:00 -
[244] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:XavierVE wrote:Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec. Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over. That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen
I don't mean to be rude, though it may sound rude to ask... but do you play the game? In what age and era do 0.0 alliances do anything to "provide services" to those who aren't on their blue-lists? They will simply blow up the low-sec CO's they haven't set standings on in order to grief everyone who hasn't signed up to the biggest bluefest in EVE's history. No null entity will care about making a 9% tax profit off of these things, they will simply want them gone so they can corner the market on POS fuel production. Like the Russians or the Goons give a horse's ass about a small isk profit on low-sec CO's when they control tech moons. They will simply destroy to grief.
The state of 0.0 is so shite right now that Goons are camping Gallente ice fields out of pure bluefest boredom. It's not a matter of 0.0 alliances becoming even richer by monopolizing their nearby low sec CO's, it is that they will simply destroy them and replace them with nothing. And even if your scenario were true, no, that isn't "fine." Why are you trying to design a mechanic that simply allows the rich to get richer?
Nothing in this change helps small entities, and that you would say "if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this" almost sounds like a complete troll. You designed yet another HP-grind that will only benefit the blobfest while giving the average capsuleer even less incentive to dip their toe out of high sec. |
Aynen
SI Radio Split Infinity.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:17:00 -
[245] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:
That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.
Regards Omen
If the assumption does turn out to be wrong, which I suspect it will because people would reason it's better to keep the planet's resources within the corp, and it probably won't take many corpmembers doing PI on a planet to maximize it's output even if such reasoning might be incorrect, what kind of adjustments would CCP be looking at?
p.s. wow that sentence looks overly complicated... |
betoli
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:18:00 -
[246] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Very interesting...
Edit: Why not in hi sec to ? We consider Player Owned Customs Offices in High-Sec a MUCH bigger impact on the game and the economy Omen
Yes it might create a legitimate reason for highsec warefare
|
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
74
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:19:00 -
[247] - Quote
Reservefj40 wrote:While this is a great idea and I love giving more control to the players, I can't help but feel you are giving more control to the BLOBS.
Is there a limit on how many a corporation can control? If not, then he who has the biggest blob has the contol over all PI, prices and a huge isk tap.
goons could easily do a campaign like current one, and take over entire region of lowsec PI if they want. there is nothing that can stop them (or other big entities), while it give good interest ; more reason to send the troops pew pew, and more profits possible. |
Aynen
SI Radio Split Infinity.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:19:00 -
[248] - Quote
Oh, and I just thought of something else, in a heavily contested system, will PI conducting residents of that system often be unable to harvest their resources because the costums offices are switching hands so often? |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:19:00 -
[249] - Quote
Jake Centauri wrote: Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?"
Not just large alliances, why would anyone charge anything less than 100% for "open to the public"? Assuming the customs owner is a PI industrialist, wouldn't it benefit them to set the taxes to the highest amount to discourage the use of that planet by others? |
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:21:00 -
[250] - Quote
Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp.
You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.
If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. Game Designer Team Pi |
|
|
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
74
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:22:00 -
[251] - Quote
Iosue wrote:Jake Centauri wrote: Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?"
Not just large alliances, why would anyone charge anything less than 100% for "open to the public"? Assuming the customs owner is a PI industrialist, wouldn't it benefit them to set the taxes to the highest amount to discourage the use of that planet by others? cause the guys can use another planet and pay nothing to him.
this works only if everyone agree to do it. problem is that blob may force people to do what they want ; like forcing freeport to be at 100%, or they attack them.
i really like the idea of this change, but i'm extremaly worried about what the communitty will do :/ |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
36
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:22:00 -
[252] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.
So, weGÇÖll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, itGÇÖs possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably wonGÇÖt see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesnGÇÖt even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that weGÇÖll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.
All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.
Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.
Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock. Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves.
Do this much for us: Task someone from the economics team to watch prices and stores of PI goods during the transition period, with the NPC traders ready to go if there's any real threat to the economy. Generally speaking I donGÇÖt like artificial suppliers in a sandbox game, but this transition could lead to some pretty nasty price shocks. I donGÇÖt have any issue with seeing prices reflect supply/demand, but having half the POSes in Eve go offline for lack of supplies at any cost would be ugly.
Also, get us those BPCs well before the NPC COs go offline so we can prime the supply pump.
IGÇÖm not sure what I think of this change when it comes to non-sov space (my lo-sec PI is going to be real dicey for a while). It all depends on how fast the COs go up, who ends up controlling them, and how they are generally run. If the alliances end up controlling them we could see some interesting embargos, brutal taxes for indies, or who knows. If griefers farm them for tears (itGÇÖs a defenseless punching bag, itGÇÖs going to happen), non-sov PI could be largely taken out of the supply equation.
Interesting times ahead, thatGÇÖs for sure.
|
Bilaz
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:23:00 -
[253] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:XavierVE wrote:Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec. Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over. That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen Why would anyone want to share its resources with someone hostile to them? being big powerfull and all they deny you any of it - if you want it - you first pay them for standings AND THEN you pay 9% tax. alternative is grinding structure that for someone big cost nothing and more or less defendable, for you its big deal and you cant defend/attack. |
XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:23:00 -
[254] - Quote
Quote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you?
You seem like a really nice guy, but anyone who could ask such a question simply doesn't play EVE. |
Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:23:00 -
[255] - Quote
so this hinges on the "enlightened self interest" of the PCO owners...
out of curiosity, what kind of population levels does a planet support at the moment? will the devs been keeping an eye on them as a part of watching the situation develop as well? |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:26:00 -
[256] - Quote
In addition to the import/export tax - there should be a daily "storage" tax - which will encourage players not to leave stuff sitting in the POCO storage. Then you could make various sizes of POCOs have smaller/larger storage capacity that is shared among all users. Charge the fee at downtime.
The issues here is:
- How do users pay the fee? Daily deduction from their wallet? Or only when they pickup the goods?
- What happens if the user can't afford the fee? Does the product default to the owner?
- Maybe make it so that if you haven't visited the POCO within the last 30 days, your personal hangar contents go poof (just like a GSC in space).
(I'm not sure that charging a daily storage fee is viable at all especially if mixed with shared storage - a griefer could fill up the POCO with cheap goods on an alt with no ISK and just let it sit there clogging up the works.) |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:26:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.
So, weGÇÖll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, itGÇÖs possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably wonGÇÖt see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesnGÇÖt even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that weGÇÖll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.
All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.
Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.
Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock. Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves. Agreed :) 50% is the current contribution. How will that change when the supply coming from non-high sec adjusts to the mechanics change and surpases high-sec contribution? Again, if I was a more active player pulling in money from many different sources this would be a much smaller concern. The state of the economy affects the casual player more than anyone since their money flow is much slower (not necessarily smaller). Is there any word on possible UI improvements that will be released along with this new feature? Hilmar did mention in his post that the player base would be heard on calls for improvements for existing features. What I can say is that we have improved the UI that specifically concern the Customs Office. I can't speak for other features I'm afraid...
Your choice of what to talk about and what not to talk about speak volumes :) 42 indeed.
I think serious consideration should be given to the "leave current infrastructure in place". There have been numerous mentions of the benefits and I can't really see any cons. |
Andrea Griffin
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:26:00 -
[258] - Quote
Iosue wrote:Jake Centauri wrote:Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?" Not just large alliances, why would anyone charge anything less than 100% for "open to the public"?? Because nearby there will be someone with only 50% tax. Guess where the PI producers will go. It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
74
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:27:00 -
[259] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. man have you lived on wormhole space ? it's pretty dangerous to allow people to stay here. you could allow blues to use your planets, but there's a risk some of your customer are a trap and in fact use this opportunity to steal the system from you. the best protection of w-space is that no one know where your entrance is. sure some guys have spies, but not much. the more people you allow the more dangerous is it to live here. so it's far safer to refuse people to use your planets it's like making freeport station on sov nullsec ; it's something really few alliances do... |
Aynen
SI Radio Split Infinity.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:27:00 -
[260] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
Well, there are two conflicting mechanics at work, on the one hand you can have money from other people doing PI on your worlds, on the other hand, the more people mine from them, the less there will be for you. If the latter would not be the case (not even a little, we're talking about greed here after all) then I'd say the chances of people opening up their costums offices to the public vastly increase. But giving players conflicting insentives doesn't strike me as good synergy in design. |
|
Dinta Zembo
Snuff Box
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:28:00 -
[261] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Iosue wrote:Jake Centauri wrote:Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?" Not just large alliances, why would anyone charge anything less than 100% for "open to the public"?? Because nearby there will be someone with only 50% tax. Guess where the PI producers will go.
You seem to assume that every system has the correct types of planets for a production chain. Wrong. |
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:28:00 -
[262] - Quote
You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.
If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. [/quote]
Ummmmmmmm. No wh corp will let neutrals have access to their space. All that would do is blow away the one feature of wh space protection, the ever changing static. Sure that guy may just be a pi guy or he could be a scan alt for someone with eyes on our wh. CCP your greatly underestimating the stinginess of people in eve to hog resources. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:28:00 -
[263] - Quote
Hmmmm. They seem to be vulnerable. Corp should at last get a message when its attacked not when its already in reinforced. Unless I missread. overall, the more things they hand over to player control the better. This will be very interesting! |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:29:00 -
[264] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
Oh, let me assure you, as a Goon, if we saw some neutral character doing PI in our space, we'd kill him, pod him, and then urinate on his corpse just to say we did. The other nullsec blocs would react the same way -- because there's no way for us to tell that that poor twit is a PI character or a Cyno alt about to jump 50 supercarriers into our space.
Sure, if he can survive, I imagine he can access the PCO just fine. But we'd bubble it and pod him the second we noticed just to say we did.
As it stands, people don't do PI in Nullsec outside of their alliances' own space. We don't just jot down to Guristas space to do PI (we'd get ganked) nor do we stealthily sneak into Ev0ke territory to do PI (again, we'd get ganked), we find a planet in Goonspace to do it in. This change is going to add a "find a planet with a CO already installed" element to the system, but change very little else.
If you're basing this change on the concept that it will encourage some form of dynamic between otherwise neutral corps in nullsec, uh, I would suggest you re-evaluate this. |
Mr Management
Anger Management
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:29:00 -
[265] - Quote
I really do feel you guys at CCP don't play this game anymore ...
No seriously you have all gone mad.
Alliance x launches 300 PCO and locks everyone else out ....... smart move CCP, so much for a sandbox game. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
80
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:29:00 -
[266] - Quote
See this is how you get non combative people to go to low sec. Nobody is being forced to exit out of high sec yet in order to make it big have to go elsewhere and low and null is where.
Now only if products produced by PI where very usable by the combatants there instead of allainces in null. |
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:29:00 -
[267] - Quote
Liandra Xi wrote:The question I have is this: in 0.0 only the owning alliance who has sov in the system can use PI on the planets in the system anyway, so as far as I can tell the standings thing in 0.0 is useless, unless it now allows you to let allies use your planets where they couldn't before. Would love a proper confirmation on how that is intended to actually work in nullsec.
One of the undecided things still is if we throw out that old sov exclusivity in favor of the standings check on the PCO. Regardless of that though, what you can do in 0.0 is to ninja-launch a PCO in your enemy's space and set the standing requirement to +10. this way, your enemy alliance can't do import/export on the planet and must rely on cans until they can destroy your CO and put up their own.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Shinrea
Volcano Experiments
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:30:00 -
[268] - Quote
I have a suggestion to this topic, have it so that if a sov system becomes vulnerable, then all the player-built custom offices become offline, and thus cannot be onlined untill the SBU's in that system have been removed. Makes all those who rely on P.I in their alliance vulnerable even more. Thus wanting them to defend their structure even more.
Shin |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:31:00 -
[269] - Quote
If implementing multiple tax levels in a POCO is too heavy a task, why not allow multiple POCO per planet? I assume they're nameable so a more accessible POCO could have a name that reflects that.
When it comes to smugglers and covert-ops, this is the sort of situation where the Hacking Module comes into play? Why not allow a smuggler to hack a POCO, allowing transfer rights for a short period? |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
89
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:31:00 -
[270] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:We are avoiding "shooting at structures" but it's a catch 22. If you introduce a structure, nature sort of demands that it can be destroyed Our goal is that people will show up and fight around the structures, but it's a tough one. Your concern is duly noted, but it's a much larger issue than just this, and we are thinking about it.
I understand it's a not an easy challenge, I'm definitely not trying to "ride you" about it.
My productive commentary is to consider this ::
Structure Reinforcement - Can be easily done with a small crew generally (by design) on short notice to instigate a notification for a larger fight.
Structure Vulnerable - Gives notice and time to build up a defensive army to protect said asset. In some cases there is also POS defenses (when relevant) to assist.
Now, i don't have an issue with the "bigger guy" winning, but there needs to be a balancing act against this to some degree. Who can and will do so? How can you fight back without always having the bigger numbers? In a universe like EVE especially, bigger should NOT be better - look at the traditional failure of "traditional" armies against smaller guerrilla style units in asymmetric warfare. How can that be applied to EVE without destroying the sensation of balance and natural consequence (meaning, not artificial "mini-games" in the "game" and other frivolities that take away from EVE as an open sandbox), etc.
The ability to subvert a larger force should be available, as an open sandbox too. The tools simply aren't there and we need more of those kinds of tools across the whole spectrum.
I've basically been promoting the idea that there should be multiple ways to take down installations - not just 1. That means people can cater to a strategy that works for them. Not necessarily focusing on shooting only. How that works in practice to balance out skill vs quantity vs quality is something to be refined. Also, requiring non-combat prerequisites to actually making things vulnerable in general. Rather than reinforcing the POCO/POS/etc by shooting it, require alternate ways to make it vulnerable... (I feel you may be doing this with DUST?) Or some other alternatives in general.
- Questions :
What happens to PI materials stored on the POCO when it is destroyed? They get dumped out? SO you get mad lootz? That would be incentive to just do reinforcement and destruction in some cases if you know it's being used for storage.
Do you think the double tax incentive is enough to push people out to lower sec to get their manufacturing established out there instead? Especially if people start putting higher tax rates on lower sec planets...
Does this remove a potential ISK Sink, and attribute to inflation by simply shuffling money around rather than removing it from the system? Any balance for that?
How much can you not tell us about how Dust will not interact with PI Customs Offices? (I'll infer the rest of everything you say from what you don't tell me, so you might as well just fess up now. ) NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
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Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:32:00 -
[271] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Liandra Xi wrote:The question I have is this: in 0.0 only the owning alliance who has sov in the system can use PI on the planets in the system anyway, so as far as I can tell the standings thing in 0.0 is useless, unless it now allows you to let allies use your planets where they couldn't before. Would love a proper confirmation on how that is intended to actually work in nullsec. One of the undecided things still is if we throw out that old sov exclusivity in favor of the standings check on the PCO. Regardless of that though, what you can do in 0.0 is to ninja-launch a PCO in your enemy's space and set the standing requirement to +10. this way, your enemy alliance can't do import/export on the planet and must rely on cans until they can destroy your CO and put up their own. Regards Omen
So to confirm -- only one PCO on a planet? |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:32:00 -
[272] - Quote
This is a stupid inane idea. It's not been thought out.
One big unknown to me is how many people are on planets doing PI. If it is as sparse as I believe it is, most planets will have no CO. Why put up a CO on a resource poor/mediocre planet with only 1 or 2 command centers on it and risk it for low income?
One thing not brought up is that the only way to import is through a CO. This means that most products requiring materials from 2 different planets will be produced in high sec. In other words, lots of hauling bulky T1 materials to high sec.
I don't see CO's as being a very profitable venture. I see lots and lots of planets that never get CO's put on them, especially in low sec, where taxes would be lower simply because the materials are not as abundant.
I see prices on PI products spiking for awhile when CCP removes CO's from the game, since the 1 and only way to make something would be to haul it to high sec. I don't know how long it would take to manufacture a CO, but it would require hauling to high sec for atleast that long, and it would slowly get a little easier as more CO's are put up.
I see prices of T1 and some T2 products going up 25-50%. T3 products probably double current prices, and T4 products something higher than that. This is because of multiple import/export taxes to make higher tier products. T2 and higher products that can't be made on 1 planet will be at a premium for the same reason. Some products will be more affected than others by this change, since it necessitates hauling bulky low value materials between planets.
What would the incentive be to have a CO with less than 100% tax? I don't see any.
From my perspective, PI was intended to be something that was a side venture that didnt take alot of time, but didn't produce lots of income either. There is a limit of what you can make ISK wise with PI. You can only have so many planets and so many facilities on each planet. Once that is maxed, so is your PI income. You can't spend more time in game, or get more skills or do anything to increase that limit.
You can train a character to max skills in PI in about 3.5 months, without implants or remaps. Your income should be limited because of the low skill requirements.
This change makes a low risk, low skill, low income, little time investment passive side venture type of endeavor that is largely a boring pain in the ass, into a low risk, low skill, low income, big time investment side venture that is a very boring, very big pain in the ass.
Why do I say that? You'll be spending more time looking for planets with CO's. Since the high (20x current rates) taxes, it makes sense to haul to T1/T2 materials high sec, which takes time.
I do think that PI needs something, but making it more painful to do is really really counterproductive to making Eve a fun engaging game.
|
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
74
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:32:00 -
[273] - Quote
Shinrea wrote:I have a suggestion to this topic, have it so that if a sov system becomes vulnerable, then all the player-built custom offices become offline, and thus cannot be onlined untill the SBU's in that system have been removed. Makes all those who rely on P.I in their alliance vulnerable even more. Thus wanting them to defend their structure even more.
Shin simple idea : when you destroy a TCU and put your own one, all custom office of this system switch property to your alliance. |
Cpt Syrinx
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:32:00 -
[274] - Quote
So, losec/null PI is now a corp thing... not going to make friends with that one Spitfire.
Not that I give a rat's arse. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
81
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:33:00 -
[275] - Quote
It's a great idea, and I think it could introduce some nice, dynamic elements to the game. I've already started making plans.
What I will say, however, is that for this to work, customs offices need to be resilient enough such that they require a concerted, tactical effort to destroy. These need to be things that absolutely can and will be destroyed if someone wants them dead, but not by any random passerby who happens to have battleships on hand. The mentality needs to be:
"Andreus Ixiris and his corporation have a customs office in orbit around Old Man Star III. Get the whole fleet together - we move out at 18:00 EVE time. I want that thing in reinforced by 18:30, and dead by 18:45 tomorrow."
and not
"Our ten-man roam hasn't found any ships to gank in Essence. Oh, hey, look, here's a customs office in orbit of Old Man Star III! Let's put it in reinforced for lulz!"
As long as customs offices only fall to concerted effort, I think this idea is brilliant, and a step in the right direction for EVE Online. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor Media Consultant, Voyeur Studios |
Arethanerielle Xhiril
Black Plasma Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:33:00 -
[276] - Quote
as i wrote in the other thread:
If this goes live, lowsec PI is going to become a pain in the ass.
As i understand it, with the standing system, people can exclude others from using the planet, effectively clamining it for themselves. Even if they don't, they can just set the tax up to 20-fold of what it is now. making any endeavour on this planet an effective isk sink.
On the other hand, there are going to be massive amounts of bored whatever people randomly killing customs offices for the lulz.
I can hardly see how this shall be a polished feature.While it might work for nullsec, people there will have their taxes dictated or plainly denied from alliance leadership anyway. As for lowsec, as I said, I can't imagine PI being a reliable source of income anymore, as either you cannot import/export due to ownership change, or you will sooner or later get your customs office destroyed anyway.
This change seems to be a really crude idea, leaving me to ask myself if i may have misunderstood something about it or if CCP Omen and friends didn't do their homework on this one. |
Andrea Griffin
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:33:00 -
[277] - Quote
The new Customs Office should be able to send mail to everyone using it for storage should it come under attack or be reinforced. This may encourage people to interact with each other to defend the office. It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Mr Management
Anger Management
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:34:00 -
[278] - Quote
So PI becomes like Moon farming ?
Power blocks rule ... |
Liandra Xi
The New Era C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:35:00 -
[279] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
It should be changed to same way lowsec works, with standings being irrelevant to install command centres, and access now entirely controlled via the customs office. If this means enterprising inviduals want to try getting away with a setup using only the launch mechanism to export goods in nullsec systems now then let them try it will only make the whole "crops to burn" more fun if theres opportunities for ninja "crop planters" to try and use a corner of your field so to speak. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:35:00 -
[280] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
You clearly have no idea of how w-space works, mate. The "larger corporation" won't tolerate him for anything because he is in their turf. Its like saying "why won't goons allow people to ninja PI in goonspace"? Because they have worked hard to get and keep the space and they see entrepreneurs like this guy as thieving ratbastards and will try to kill him. If they don't they are crap at security (which would appear to be the case).
Do corps in w-space like people raiding their anoms? No. They will respond and kill the intruder not sit back and say "ok, luls, you can pay a 9% tarriff so its marginally cheaper than hisec".
If you live in w-space or sov space you'd be an idiot not to set access = +10 or at least +5, to just choke off the ability of anyone not on your budski list to utilise the resource.
You really seem to have no idea about the motivations behind why people get sov/w-space and how they go about their business. |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:35:00 -
[281] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:If implementing multiple tax levels in a POCO is too heavy a task, why not allow multiple POCO per planet? I assume they're nameable so a more accessible POCO could have a name that reflects that.
When it comes to smugglers and covert-ops, this is the sort of situation where the Hacking Module comes into play? Why not allow a smuggler to hack a POCO, allowing transfer rights for a short period?
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:36:00 -
[282] - Quote
So, I have a few (a lot?) of concerns about this.
1.) As other people have said, the PI market will reach absurd prices, at least in comparison to what they are now, meaning all items that use "planet poop" will also increase, such as towers, SBU's, TCU's, and other anchored structures, as well as T2 items. I know you are working on decreasing the cost of T2 items by balancing moon products, but this will off set that by a decent amount, making the moon balancing effect negligible.
2.) I know for a fact that a majority of PI products harvested by small time high-sec players comes from low-sec planets that are close to high sec borders. Removing the Customs Office from ALL low-sec systems will increase cost. One way to offset this is to increase the amount of resources that high-sec planets have to the same amount as the low-sec planets, or at the very least, similar (only slightly less). The income from owned Customs offices should balance out the pros/cons of low-sec PI, as people who live in deep low-sec, at least in my experience, will find it troublesome to fly 15+ jumps just to get to 3 or 4 planets. You could also make it so that faction warfare systems use the player owned offices, while empire owned low-sec should retain the customs offices, ownership being switched from CONCORD to the corresponding empire who owns the space.
3.) Decrease the tax increase from 50% to 20-30% for high sec Customs offices. This will be from the shift in the majority of the PI resources from high/low sec to 0.0 space. High sec PI output WILL decrease, perhaps dramatically, once the changes take effect. No one wants to pay more for their PI products than what they are worth on the market.
4.) Also concerning the low-sec player owned offices, small time operators in low-sec, such as myself, will find it impossible to replace or anchor multiple customs offices without the fear of them being taken down within 24 hours. One way to get around this is to perhaps increase the hp of the customs offices to that of a large tower and perhaps adding a repair function to the office, making it easier for alliances with less than 100 active members to get to it in time for defense.
Over-all, this is an excellent idea for 0.0 space an W-space, but the mechanics need to be more thoroughly thought out. Making it a hassle for people to make PI products in both high and low sec will have a substantial effect on the market, as well as the items that use the PI resources as their main building/fuel cost. |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
111
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:37:00 -
[283] - Quote
This is just stupid you giving control away again to the people who are not using it or who will just abuse it ; as far i know fom my fellow players most of them don't like the idea of making pi a corporate thing and you just did that
Bad concept ccp bad concept I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Whiskey 01
Akimamur Industries
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:38:00 -
[284] - Quote
After looking at the cost of the new CO's, Please refund my 1.6 million in skillpoints from Planet Mangement. Do I need to submit a petiton for this?
Thanks
|
Aynen
SI Radio Split Infinity.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:38:00 -
[285] - Quote
I've been doing Ninja wh PI for a while, and it's pretty hard to catch me in such a way that I won't find my way back in because I use multiple alts and I picked a system which isn't overly busy. If one of my toons explodes, I'll lose an Iteron, possibly with a cargo bay full of PI goods, but that's quite an acceptable loss since it happens so rarely. My point is, I don't fear much for being permanently booted out of the system, and a little more chance of having to 'interact' with the locals is fine by me, will make it more exciting even. But that's from the perspetive of the ninja, not the locals. And the player owned costums office as described is exactly what they need to get rid of me entirely. That probably wasn't the design goal.
I'm thinking, what if one can 'invest' in the loyalty of the costums office's personel? This would essencially mean that the more you 'invest', the larger the volume they will traffic for you. In other words, if you can pay for it, you can increase your share of the 'bandwith' so to speak. This means it'll cost a lot of money to make the station exclusively operate for your corporation, decreasing the total revenue you can attain from PI. If you want maximum revenue, you'll have to accept that others can use the station aswell. |
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:39:00 -
[286] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.
Raise your hand if you control a wormhole and would rather have extra isk, or a shiny new killmail.... Not to mention the trust factor of allowing a neutral to toy around in your space. The trust factor is a big one, what happens if he has friends that decide they want to setup shop? He can show them the way in. Nevermind that he's been there for a year or however long, paranoia dictates that this is completely beside the point.
I think you're completely overestimating the number of people that tolerate neutrals in any space where you can setup an office (0.0/lowsec). It's -possible- he can make some kind of arrangement where they take a large percentage of his isk and in turn set him blue, but I doubt it. Besides if they did it would no longer be "ninja" it'd just be a fellow wormhole resident.
Edit: or to put it another way...
XavierVE wrote:Quote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? You seem like a really nice guy, but anyone who could ask such a question simply doesn't play EVE.
Edit #2: or see this as well https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=206809#post206809 |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
64
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:41:00 -
[287] - Quote
OMEN:
First Comment: ******* AWESOME
Next comments:
Sov Response: If you OWN a system, you should be 100% in control of WHO can put up a PCO and who can access them. The corp may say open access, but the alliance says otherwise, seems consistent.
Taxes Comment: Being able to set multiple tax rates seems like an essential idea. My group pays low taxes, but anyone can use it for 40% etc.
Defenses: It seems very strange that I can deploy a PCO but I can't surround it with guns, I'm not talking FF madness, but guns!!
Contracts: Courier contracts were brought up long ago, I'm glad you'd heard them, and I hope the consume your Friday nights until done.
There can be only 1? I get the madness of space liter, but only 1? I think there will be plenty of fights over them even if 4-5 were allowed. You could have a lower tax rate, but also say "I don't defend it"
Question: Will the PCO be able to label his PCO? have a motd? anything? |
Barakkus
828
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:42:00 -
[288] - Quote
I think customs offices should be very similar to towers in terms of defense. Shields, stront, guns, fuel etc. Would make it very interesting lol |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:42:00 -
[289] - Quote
Make these things cheaper to buy, build, and transport (so they can be replaced more easily by small corps after being destroyed), and create salvagable wrecks when they are destroyed.
The time setting them up should be the major cost factor.
Also, anybody should be able to set up one of these things anywhere. It should be up to the people who hold sovereignty to actively hunt them down and clear them out (which shouldn't be too hard tbh). |
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
132
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:42:00 -
[290] - Quote
This owns bones |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
45
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:44:00 -
[291] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
I would not allow planetary activities to be reserved to the alliance that holds sov.
1: Conflict is good. 2: This will dovetail nicely with how things work in DUST 514. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Miraqu
Marquie-X Corp
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:44:00 -
[292] - Quote
I love it!
More power to the players. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
64
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:44:00 -
[293] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:CCP Omen wrote: We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. Raise your hand if you control a wormhole and would rather have extra isk, or a shiny new killmail.... Not to mention the trust factor of allowing a neutral to toy around in your space. The trust factor is a big one, what happens if he has friends that decide they want to setup shop? He can show them the way in. Nevermind that he's been there for a year or however long, paranoia dictates that this is completely beside the point. I think you're completely overestimating the number of people that tolerate neutrals in any space where you can setup an office (0.0/lowsec). It's -possible- he can make some kind of arrangement where they take a large percentage of his isk and in turn set him blue, but I doubt it. Besides if they did it would no longer be "ninja" it'd just be a fellow wormhole resident. Edit: or to put it another way... XavierVE wrote:Quote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? You seem like a really nice guy, but anyone who could ask such a question simply doesn't play EVE.
Ninja PI in 0.0 should be controllable, I mean if you OWN the system, you OWN it. In low sec, that's different of course.
CCP I do hope you increase the storage capacity of the warehouses (whatever it's called that isn't a launch pad). |
Liandra Xi
The New Era C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:44:00 -
[294] - Quote
Highfield wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen WAY too high..this is a missed opportunity to get more action for medium subcapital fleets in EvE...divide numbers by 4 and we're getting closer + invulnerability from fighterbombers + doomsdays.
I'm not going to comment on the specific HP numbers, but I would like to echo the request to make these things basically invulnerable to fighter bombers and doomsdays. I have no issues with dreads and carriers being used to RF these, great opportunites for small cap fights, but make it so that Titans and Supercaps cannot themselves damage them within 2 minutes would make these a lot more fun. |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:45:00 -
[295] - Quote
I see you do not play the game much. No one allows blues or neutrals to freely roam around their space, not in null not in WH space. Not only is a risk, it is a lot MOAR FUN to blow them up! This is EVE!
Specially if the alternative is to control the market and inflate prices of the products I alone produce.
CCP Omen wrote:Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:46:00 -
[296] - Quote
The overwhelming feeling I'm getting from this thread is: "Have you thought this through all the way?"
Please don't take this the wrong way. We do like the spirit of the feature. We the players simply feel this new feature could be abused severely. There are many cons and not many pros. Could the design team please take another conscious look at this feature taking all of the feedback into account before release?
I can see this turning into a threadnaught quite easily, because of the upcoming Dust release, among many other current, practical reasons. People care about PI, because it's something everyone can do. At least, it is in it's current state. We don't want that to change. |
Andrea Griffin
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:46:00 -
[297] - Quote
If tax rates based on standings, corp, alliance are implemented will these rates be publicly available? For example, I may have a CO up somewhere with 25% tax for everyone, but 5% tax for +5 standings. People may be encouraged to contact me about standings, which I would happily provide for a small fee! It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Jake Centauri
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:47:00 -
[298] - Quote
The new CO's could also be used for industrial griefing in the following manner: say you find a good planet with a CO open to the public for 9% tax. You install PI on the planet and come back the following day only to find either the tax raised to 100% or, the CO standings were changed to blue only. Your PI installation becomes unexpectedly isolated (no CO) or way too expensive to use. I mean, who is gonna _trust_ that neutral CO's settings will remain stable....I won't. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:47:00 -
[299] - Quote
Mr Management wrote:I really do feel you guys at CCP don't play this game anymore ...
No seriously you have all gone mad.
Alliance x launches 300 PCO and locks everyone else out ....... smart move CCP, so much for a sandbox game.
Which is one reason why there needs to be some sort of fuel cost each hour. Fuel costs force the owner to decide "do I really want to put up a POCO here, can I make a profit from the taxes?".
(And 300 POCOs would only be about 30 systems.) |
MinSebsis
Steel Hammer Industry
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:48:00 -
[300] - Quote
I like this, but one thing bothers me.
Make it so more then one PCO can be constructed per planet!
This opens up compitition and adds more pew pew.
Don't like that guys PCO prices on the other side of the planet, lower your prices or go blow it up! Win Win for everyone!
Consumers and Tax Barons.
More compitition the better!
I for one are not going to trust a publicly open PCO to keep standings and taxes stable, you have to have trust, and I trust no one in eve. Paying Customer - Capsaleer enabled in 2005 |
|
Handsome Hussein
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:48:00 -
[301] - Quote
Can I have my skill points back?
This will pretty much kill the low-sec small-time harvesters like me. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:49:00 -
[302] - Quote
I do not think that this will work in lowsec at all.
I can see how all lowsec customs offices are constantly shot down by bored pirates, so no more PI in lowsec.
Good way to nerf lowsec more. |
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:49:00 -
[303] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:Ninja PI in 0.0 should be controllable, I mean if you OWN the system, you OWN it. In low sec, that's different of course. CCP I do hope you increase the storage capacity of the warehouses (whatever it's called that isn't a launch pad).
I wasn't discussing anything about 0.0 in that post, but to respond, personally I say leave it an open system. Currently yes, in 0.0 you OWN a system. Does that stop people from ratting in your system? Setting up towers? Doing PI in it's current form? Owning a system doesn't mean sitting back and chilling because nobody can setup shop in said system, it grants some benefits, but you still have to get out there and pop a red POS if someone suddenly anchors one. I think custom offices should be the same way, but that's my personal opinion. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:49:00 -
[304] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Orakkus wrote:It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?
Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best. Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one. @ CCP Omen: You have much to learn about EVE Politics.
Some of the most epic political subterfuge takes place in the form of large-scale thefts, asset destruction and POS shenanigans (resulting in theft).
Also, how can this change not be considered highly mechanics-oriented? You have just documented changes to the primary way in which capsuleers interact with planets, including structure timers as well as taxation and access control mechanisms.
When players roll up their sleeves to 'get work done' in EVE, mechanics rule the day (think Dominion Sov rules, time zone wars due to timers, etc.). Politics may be the reason behind an offensive movement, but mechanics rule the day. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:50:00 -
[305] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:[quote=Raziphan Rebular]
That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.
Regards Omen Not really, it just adds another milk cow for large alliances/corps and leaves the smaller corps in the dust... |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
288
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:53:00 -
[306] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:So, I have a few (a lot?) of concerns about this.
1.) As other people have said, the PI market will reach absurd prices, at least in comparison to what they are now, meaning all items that use "planet poop" will also increase, such as towers, SBU's, TCU's, and other anchored structures, as well as T2 items. I know you are working on decreasing the cost of T2 items by balancing moon products, but this will off set that by a decent amount, making the moon balancing effect negligible.
This is not a bad thing, nor one to be concerned about. The market will adapt, and more people will have incentive to do PI if prices go up. The current state of the PI market is nothing sacred.
Quote:2.) I know for a fact that a majority of PI products harvested by small time high-sec players comes from low-sec planets that are close to high sec borders. Removing the Customs Office from ALL low-sec systems will increase cost. One way to offset this is to increase the amount of resources that high-sec planets have to the same amount as the low-sec planets, or at the very least, similar (only slightly less). The income from owned Customs offices should balance out the pros/cons of low-sec PI, as people who live in deep low-sec, at least in my experience, will find it troublesome to fly 15+ jumps just to get to 3 or 4 planets. You could also make it so that faction warfare systems use the player owned offices, while empire owned low-sec should retain the customs offices, ownership being switched from CONCORD to the corresponding empire who owns the space.
People should have more incentives to move out to dangerous space, not less.
Quote:3.) Decrease the tax increase from 50% to 20-30% for high sec Customs offices. This will be from the shift in the majority of the PI resources from high/low sec to 0.0 space. High sec PI output WILL decrease, perhaps dramatically, once the changes take effect. No one wants to pay more for their PI products than what they are worth on the market.
No. What should ideally happen is player-controlled highsec offices, with the stipulation that said offices are required to be open to the public. It'll make highsec a bit more sandbox-y than it is at current, as you'll have folks wardec'ing each other to remove customs offices and steal the delicious custom taxes, etc
Quote:4.) Also concerning the low-sec player owned offices, small time operators in low-sec, such as myself, will find it impossible to replace or anchor multiple customs offices without the fear of them being taken down within 24 hours. One way to get around this is to perhaps increase the hp of the customs offices to that of a large tower and perhaps adding a repair function to the office, making it easier for alliances with less than 100 active members to get to it in time for defense.
No. The offices already have so much HP and long enough timers that no one in their right mind is going to bother with them. Increasing it further is just going to make it even worse.
|
Mr Management
Anger Management
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:54:00 -
[307] - Quote
Quote:(And 300 POCOs would only be about 30 systems.)
Or 300 Plasma and Lava Planets ...... thats gonna be fun for production costs. |
Handsome Hussein
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:55:00 -
[308] - Quote
For moar tears, read below:
I can still launch a can using the command center, correct? But that is limited to 500m3. I do a lot more volume than that in a night, and if I let it slip a few nights it can really pile up (I fill up a "nano"-Crane pretty quick!) This might work for low-sec if the launch pad mechanics are changed to allow 10000m3 cans. Otherwise... Yeah, I'm done with the feature. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
Tammarr
Trident RMBK
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:56:00 -
[309] - Quote
Liandra Xi wrote:Highfield wrote:[quote=CCP Omen][quote=Dr Mercy]Any comments on HP levels? I'm not going to comment on the specific HP numbers, but I would like to echo the request to make these things basically invulnerable to fighter bombers and doomsdays. I have no issues with dreads and carriers being used to RF these, great opportunites for small cap fights, but make it so that Titans and Supercaps cannot themselves damage them within 2 minutes would make these a lot more fun.
No supers on the field at all. Supers mean lowsec/npcnull can't do anything, getting dropped by 5 carriers is "ok". getting dropped by two mums eating your everything with an additional 12 waiting for you to even consider attacking the two supers they are showing, y+ñj. Or even: Oh they brought 5 carriers, we can actualy fight that if we field 4 of our own. Lets do this it'll be fun pewpew over planet with this entitiy that has about the same as us. ...3 moments later your caps are dead to supers you can't hope to hold down unless they dont have support at all. a possible fight ruined for everyone.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
163
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:56:00 -
[310] - Quote
Viktor von Steiner wrote:It would be awesome if a planetary office would be small enough, that a 10-50 man roaming gang can shoot it into reinforce and bugger off quick enough; such a terror gang could interrupt local industry enough to motivate counter-roaming gangs that are on patrol. This would also give roaming gangs strategic objectives instead of just roaming for shooting-redz-for-the-lulz.
QFT from another thread - the locked one claiming that this is somehow a GÇ£nullsec buff at the expense of everywhere elseGÇ¥
Whether the customs office is destroyable (meaning you've put it in reinforced) by a small gang, or dreadnoughts like POS's, remains to be seen, and depends on the hitpoints of the new structure. But you're spot on - this is exactly the kind of strategic objective that nullsec and lowsec combat really needs.
To those panicking over this - and complaining about being "locked out" of a planet, etc, etc. You're absolutely right. You CAN be locked out, if you don't want to pay exorbitant fees. But you can also rebel against such tyranny and attack the douchebags who are overcharging you.
Just like the Goon attacks, these things will balance themselves out through gameplay in the long run. If the prices of PI goods skyrocket, more people will engage in PI. That means more competition, more fights, more tears, more fun. Sadly, once again players would rather complain about increased difficulty, rather than see this for what it brings to the sandbox in terms of new iterative gameplay and challenge.
This was bound to happen eventually, did everyone think PI would be a gravy train forever? How in the world will we fight over planets on the ground, if we can't even fight over the space-bound elements first? Remember everyone, this is a sandbox. It's designed to encourage competition at every level.
When PI was first released, everyone complained that there was nothing you could do to actually compete other players for resources. Everyone rightfully complained that there was no consequence for just allowing you to put anything on a planet right next to a war target's own colony. Finally, consequence has been delivered, and you can use your spaceships for planetary supremacy. This is a long overdue feature that fixes one of the primary complaints about the simplistic PI feature to begin with, and finally gives it its teeth.
Well done, CCP, well done.
Also - for the record, I'm a lowsec inhabitant, and I do have PI colonies that I farm regularly. In no way is this just a nullsec buff - this is a win for the game as a whole. Players have been demanding the last few months for more spaceship stuff, more conflict, more stuff to do. Now you have it. Rise to the challenge, or stick to highsec. But seriously, enough complaining that they're making EvE more like EvE. I welcome the chance to fight for my stuffs, it'll be fun to be a planetary dictator!
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Sinistrus Fatalis
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:56:00 -
[311] - Quote
With many others, my main concern is more structure shooting.
I don't want to grind more structures, rep more structures... basically it's a lot of effort for not that much gain.
I was already up in the air about doing pi. I would prefer that you left the structures and made it some sort of system linked to sov, or similar to station timers. So at least I don't need to move more crap to make them work.
I like the idea of putting more control in the players' hands, I just don't think more structure grinding is the way (unless you have one hell of a non-structure bashing idea coming around for sov.)
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Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:57:00 -
[312] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:The overwhelming feeling I'm getting from this thread is: "Have you thought this through all the way?"
Please don't take this the wrong way. We do like the spirit of the feature. We the players simply feel this new feature could be abused severely. There are many cons and not many pros. Could the design team please take another conscious look at this feature taking all of the feedback into account before release?
I can see this turning into a threadnaught quite easily, because of the upcoming Dust release, among many other current, practical reasons. People care about PI, because it's something everyone can do. At least, it is in it's current state. We don't want that to change.
I think it's already become a threadnaught. lol
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.
OK, I'm just gonna come right out and say it....you guys really don't play your own game, do you? I mean, I think cruising around in Jove space with other GMs seems to have cut you off from what the spirit of eve is: screw over as many people as you can, getting as many ship kills as you can along the way. But seriously, people who control the customs offices will CERTAINLY deny access to people who don't have decent standings with them, or in the very least, hike the tax rate up to 90 - 100%. No one likes neutrals, or reds for that matter, flying around in their space. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:57:00 -
[313] - Quote
I like the idea of the changes but it is missing some key featured in my opinion and i would like the see them implemented please:
1. The tax rate should be tied to player standing - For example the customs office holder may wish to charge neutrals a 10% tax, blues 5% and denies access to people with a negative standing.
2. Corporation hangers within the office - A player should be able to give another member of his/her corp access to their launch facility.
Thanks |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 16:58:00 -
[314] - Quote
edit: double post deleted |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
84
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:01:00 -
[315] - Quote
CCP Omen: I have one big suggestion.
To help the transition period, and to make life easier to all us PI users: If you got a launchpad on the planet, Allow us to use it to launch a large can into orbit. Such launchers would be prohibited if a PCO is in place.
Also Im somewhat worried about high sec factory planets. These are planets where you buy P2, drop it to the planet, make P4 and export it. The profit margin is already rather small, doubling the import/export fees may make it unprofitable for the high sec operator.
Is it really your intention to remove an industry option for high sec residents? Please keep an eye on this. You may find you want to lower the export fees charged by concord, at least for P4 (which are stunningly high, much higher per cubic meter than anything else). CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
111
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:01:00 -
[316] - Quote
Jake Centauri wrote:The new CO's could also be used for industrial griefing in the following manner: say you find a good planet with a CO open to the public for 9% tax. You install PI on the planet and come back the following day only to find either the tax raised to 100% or, the CO standings were changed to blue only. Your PI installation becomes unexpectedly isolated (no CO) or way too expensive to use. I mean, who is gonna _trust_ that neutral CO's settings will remain stable....I won't.
This this is one of my main concerns most older players in high sec have their installations in low sec and they probably form the biggest percentage of pi production and like i said before you are just giving the control away to people who are not using it or will just use it to grief others
besides who i s going to invest time and money into placing this stupid thing will the first idiot who comes along can blow it up while you are at work or asleep oor does CCP presumes we all play EVE 23/7
No ccp you not been thinking straight
it is about time you stop pampering those 10% of pvp onlyplayers in null sec and do something for all of us this certainly doesn't help
and indeed if this go ahead like it stands now please refund my 1,6 mil sp on my 3 other accounts I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:01:00 -
[317] - Quote
Xython wrote:I don't see this going over well in Nullsec, considering how frustrating getting these things up will be, and how we're going to have to install one on every single planet we want to do PI on. Not to mention how many random roving annoyances will pop them just to be a jerk. Will we be able to place defenses up? Get alerts when they're getting attacked? Have a chance to repair them?
I just don't know. It sounds like a fun idea, but at the same time, it sounds like it could make it a bit more difficult than it should be. Wonder if there could be a "default" NPC Customs Office that we could upgrade instead.
Poor you with so many planets! There should absolutely be a notification of some sort. Game Designer Team Pi |
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Barakkus
828
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:02:00 -
[318] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:The overwhelming feeling I'm getting from this thread is: "Have you thought this through all the way?"
Please don't take this the wrong way. We do like the spirit of the feature. We the players simply feel this new feature could be abused severely. There are many cons and not many pros. Could the design team please take another conscious look at this feature taking all of the feedback into account before release?
I can see this turning into a threadnaught quite easily, because of the upcoming Dust release, among many other current, practical reasons. People care about PI, because it's something everyone can do. At least, it is in it's current state. We don't want that to change.
The only thing this is really going to change is whether or not you do planetary launches or use a customs office. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:03:00 -
[319] - Quote
Jake Centauri wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:XavierVE wrote:Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec. Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over. That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen Why would a large alliance charge anything less than 100% tax for planets "open to the public?" Market prices? 100% of nothing is still nothing. At the end of the day, we will have to see, if all goes to hell, we can change the variables.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Ay Liz
Sacred Templars RED.OverLord
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:04:00 -
[320] - Quote
Is this a troll?
The structure grind in Sov-Warfare is bad enough and now you give us even more structures to shoot? I don't know if i should laugh or cry. |
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Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
64
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:05:00 -
[321] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:Apollo Gabriel wrote:Ninja PI in 0.0 should be controllable, I mean if you OWN the system, you OWN it. In low sec, that's different of course. CCP I do hope you increase the storage capacity of the warehouses (whatever it's called that isn't a launch pad). I wasn't discussing anything about 0.0 in that post, but to respond, personally I say leave it an open system. Currently yes, in 0.0 you OWN a system. Does that stop people from ratting in your system? Setting up towers? Doing PI in it's current form? Owning a system doesn't mean sitting back and chilling because nobody can setup shop in said system, it grants some benefits, but you still have to get out there and pop a red POS if someone suddenly anchors one. I think custom offices should be the same way, but that's my personal opinion.
You make some interesting points here. There would be nothing lost by letting independents set up PCO in your space, as you could easily destroy them. I yield.
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Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:06:00 -
[322] - Quote
Chaos Incarnate wrote:No. The offices already have so much HP and long enough timers that no one in their right mind is going to bother with them. Increasing it further is just going to make it even worse.
Apparently you've never seem the numerous capital/super-cap fleets wandering around low-sec for easy kills. Get a titan or a mom on these and they will put it into reinforced in under 5 minutes. Even if it only get's shot at by a sub-cap fleet of 20-30 battleships, the logistics involved with getting a fleet together from a non-pvp corp in order to defend it is horrendous. I don't really think I need to remind you that industrial corps are the majority of the PI producers. |
Steelshine
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:07:00 -
[323] - Quote
Quote:=HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000
* Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000
Sure will give those roaming gangs of supercaps something to do.
Are these intended as "small to medium gang objectives" or just another structure shoot that everyone will hate? |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:07:00 -
[324] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
Really?!
Then why doesn't Coke allow Pepsi to use it's machines for a little extra dough? |
Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:08:00 -
[325] - Quote
If you want to make this a fun target for small gangs to tussle over, drop the price of the BPC to 500 LP and just 1,000,000 isk. You should be able to make back the investment in less than a week of PI. Easy to throw up, easy to destroy. If the initial investment is low, people will roll the dice and throw these things up everywhere. If it is a major investment, they won't. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:09:00 -
[326] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Omen,
I hope you will seed some ready made customs ofices on the market for the first few days/weeks. There are a limited number of planets in the game, but there are obviously lots of people using several planets at the moment basically for free. In future you will have to manage in low/null/w-space the number of offices your corp puts up, and so on. However, immediately, this is going to cause a gigantic crunch in POS fuel supplies for a short while until gantries are rolled out, and the BPC's purchased with LP's, manufactured etc.
I say this as a w-space dweller. While I think it is way cool that there will be more things to shoot, and this is a buff for FW, there's also clearly a need for a rush of supply upon deployment. Eg, there are 9 planets in our wormhole system, we can probably trim down to using 5 of them. So we need 5 gantries and upgrade to 5 CO's. If we do not do this once you magically remove the CO's, we run out of POS fuel.
Great.
Other comments: If you allow ANY form of defence to be anchored around CO's this will remove the ability, in w-space, of ganking people's PI haulers. I say this because your average corp will anchor a dissy and some small AC batteries around the office, and this is enough to gank anything stupid enough to decloak within range of the CO. Just sayin'
Second, the HP's are not too great, but still ridiculous for griefing unless you run medium or large gangs. We regularly bash small towers and it is a minimum of 2 hours with 6-8 BS's for a small tower. Clearing out a system in w-space after removing a corp's POS will become ridonkulously boring.
The reinforce timer idea is unfortunate. This means people can set the RF to come out during their prime time, which is defacto a way of waging RF timer warfare AFK. Second, it would be better to make it use stront, because that will consume stront.
To all those whining about this nerfing the lone operators: train Corporations skills to level 1, start your own corp, fling your PI alt in there, and get to it. Or suck the PI costs.
I am afraid we have no plans to seed any customs offices, except of course in high sec. One purpose with this blog is to give awareness of the materials needed to produce the customs office and the gantry so that concerned people may buy or produce those materials in advance. the same goes for loyalty points, if you are concerned about for instance the BPC prices, try and get the required LP in advance.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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F DeLeon
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:10:00 -
[327] - Quote
What about making the costums offices the basis of the 0.0 sov warfare instead of TCUs. The alliance/corp who have more CO in a system owns the system. This way it could be easier to make connections between eve sov warfare and dust if the fights are going on around planets. Just an idea.
As a PI industrialist with 5 lvl5 characters I'm looking forward to the changes and the increased profit |
Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
194
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:10:00 -
[328] - Quote
since COs are now a service, there should be an easy way to discover those systemwide.
they compete via taxes and planet quality and don't have to be from the same corp. Something like the Science&Industry/installations would be needed for COs. (thinking on lowsec, since null is a different story) You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
AMirrorDarkly
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:10:00 -
[329] - Quote
While I think this is a great improvement and iteration in general, there is one or two things that concern me slightly.
I too am worried about inflation, I see all the arguments and I guess it is a suck and see kind of thing however.
1.) costs of running a tower will increase, a lot, this market sector is already seeing huge cost increases and now they are in line for more increases. How many items are produced in POS's rather than in Stations? Something only CCP can judge the effect of how many "businesses" will cease to run a tower as cost efficiency goes out the window. Squeezing middle industry and possibly causing hyper inflation as availability on the market sinks.
If this is the way forward then perhaps you may consider equalising the resources availability on planets in hisec so that low level indy corps still have access to materials at a decent level, this helps counteract the 2x fee from concord.
2.) I'm intrigued about low-sec, allowing corps to anchor their own is a bold step, and will either work really well, or as I suspect knowing how fellow eve pilots play in the sand box, really badly....
Forget the RP element of the empires having planets under the control of capsuleers (is there to be a tax by the empires for use of the orbital body in low-sec, like a POS charter in Hi-sec?)
I am all for Player control of the customs offices, reaping the rewards of taxes, gaining income from them, not sure I would vindicate corps and alliances being able to block access to the structures in low-sec, 0.0 I understand. I'm a PVP character by nature, but I do know several indy players who are worried and currently a good number of them do their PI in lowsec, and it is the only time they go into low-sec.
I can see, Pirate Corps and old 0.0 alliances displaced by the DRF dominance taking over the Low-sec Customs, just to make themselves feel better, if the DRF goons etc don't want them of course, looking at who's giving them tax in their corp wallet, adding the biggest yield players to their watch lists and ganking them anyway, don't have a huge problem with that persay, you are in low-sec you should have risk. But then also being able to cut off the lowsec planets from all but alliance members is asking for trouble, small time industrialists will not be able to compete with even a small PVP corp in putting their own office in place, so huge sections of the market will be isolated to who has the biggest stick. I hear you say, but it is in their own interests to keep these open so they can make profit on the exports, but we all know how force esclation works, someone somewhere will cut off a planet from anyone who isn't blue, next day everyone will have to do the same and, it won't be long before nearly all planet are set to +10 access only and these indy players will have no choice but to retreat back into hisec, basically you will be forcing more industry and players back into hisec, not enticing them to take more risks out in the wilderness, like is so desperatly needed.
Basically there seems to be little penalty/cost attributable to keeping the structures and a lot of benefits, how will you stop them becoming like ihub/station bashes (ie who can bring the biggest blob and attrision warfare) now just moved to lowsec?
In summary, I think the idea is great, but there will be several knock on effect on industry and market that may be undesirable. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
166
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:10:00 -
[330] - Quote
You know... this is actually a pretty worthless change when it comes to wormholes. It makes no sense at all. Usually a single corp / alliance lives in a hole, and no one comes in from other systems to do PI. It's completely not feasible. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to change the way things work right now in wormholes. It really should be left as is in there. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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Liandra Xi
The New Era C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:10:00 -
[331] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Liandra Xi wrote:The question I have is this: in 0.0 only the owning alliance who has sov in the system can use PI on the planets in the system anyway, so as far as I can tell the standings thing in 0.0 is useless, unless it now allows you to let allies use your planets where they couldn't before. Would love a proper confirmation on how that is intended to actually work in nullsec. One of the undecided things still is if we throw out that old sov exclusivity in favor of the standings check on the PCO. Regardless of that though, what you can do in 0.0 is to ninja-launch a PCO in your enemy's space and set the standing requirement to +10. this way, your enemy alliance can't do import/export on the planet and must rely on cans until they can destroy your CO and put up their own. Regards Omen
Id like to strongly encourage you to ditch the standings requirement, and not go down that path of making the standings effectively irrelevant in nullsec, as the whole ninja-launch option really won't end up being that profitable and will only be done to get fights not do serious PI. |
Tetragammatron Prime
Pink Sockers
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:11:00 -
[332] - Quote
How many hp does it have? Make it worth dropping dreads on. Using a few stealth bombers is too easy (especially in low sec where you can't bubble them). Make them spend hours chewing through the hp with their torps so their tears are extra sweet when you bring in carriers to rep it up in one triage cycle. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:12:00 -
[333] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.
Regards Omen This goes back to the main point that people who control these stations WILL make the tax rate astronomical for people that do not have standings with them. Also, defending them against larger alliances (TEST, NC., RA, xXDeathXx, etc.) will be impossible for the small corp. You are just making it easier for the larger, pvp oriented alliances to control the market and production. |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:12:00 -
[334] - Quote
Xython wrote: Not to mention how many random roving annoyances will pop them just to be a jerk. I don't think "pop" is the verb you're looking for. Ten dudes in ships averaging 500 dps each will need 25 minutes to put one office into reinforced. And that's not counting resists. |
Handsome Hussein
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:12:00 -
[335] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. This feature does not, in any way, benefit smaller corps. If you mean smaller in the sense of 40 members, then maybe. But if you mean smaller in the casual "four IRL friends in a corp" way, there is absolutely no benefit. I have no hope of maintaining my own customs office in low-sec without a major alliance, and I rely on the goodwill and (mental) stability of the office owner to do PI on a "claimed" planet.
What this really does is remove a "job" avenue from casual players. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:12:00 -
[336] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Omen,
I hope you will seed some ready made customs ofices on the market for the first few days/weeks. There are a limited number of planets in the game, but there are obviously lots of people using several planets at the moment basically for free. In future you will have to manage in low/null/w-space the number of offices your corp puts up, and so on. However, immediately, this is going to cause a gigantic crunch in POS fuel supplies for a short while until gantries are rolled out, and the BPC's purchased with LP's, manufactured etc.
I say this as a w-space dweller. While I think it is way cool that there will be more things to shoot, and this is a buff for FW, there's also clearly a need for a rush of supply upon deployment. Eg, there are 9 planets in our wormhole system, we can probably trim down to using 5 of them. So we need 5 gantries and upgrade to 5 CO's. If we do not do this once you magically remove the CO's, we run out of POS fuel.
Great.
Other comments: If you allow ANY form of defence to be anchored around CO's this will remove the ability, in w-space, of ganking people's PI haulers. I say this because your average corp will anchor a dissy and some small AC batteries around the office, and this is enough to gank anything stupid enough to decloak within range of the CO. Just sayin'
Second, the HP's are not too great, but still ridiculous for griefing unless you run medium or large gangs. We regularly bash small towers and it is a minimum of 2 hours with 6-8 BS's for a small tower. Clearing out a system in w-space after removing a corp's POS will become ridonkulously boring.
The reinforce timer idea is unfortunate. This means people can set the RF to come out during their prime time, which is defacto a way of waging RF timer warfare AFK. Second, it would be better to make it use stront, because that will consume stront.
To all those whining about this nerfing the lone operators: train Corporations skills to level 1, start your own corp, fling your PI alt in there, and get to it. Or suck the PI costs.
I am afraid we have no plans to seed any customs offices, except of course in high sec. One purpose with this blog is to give awareness of the materials needed to produce the customs office and the gantry so that concerned people may buy or produce those materials in advance. the same goes for loyalty points, if you are concerned about for instance the BPC prices, try and get the required LP in advance.Regards Omen
"FYI, we're going to introduce a game changing/breaking mechanic. Your input is not being considered. Thank you for buying into the idea that we care."
That's the only thing I got from that response. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:14:00 -
[337] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:
If you allow ANY form of defence to be anchored around CO's this will remove the ability, in w-space, of ganking people's PI haulers. I say this because your average corp will anchor a dissy and some small AC batteries around the office, and this is enough to gank anything stupid enough to decloak within range of the CO. Just sayin'
I think this could be addressed easily. Allow defenses to be setup. But those defenses can only be set to defend attack. IE someone could decloak in range and nothing happens. Someone could get ganked in range and nothng happens. But anyone who attacks the CO gets popped.
|
Reservefj40
Rapier Innovations
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:14:00 -
[338] - Quote
Manssell wrote:
Really?!
Then why doesn't Coke allow Pepsi to use it's machines for a little extra dough?
WIN |
Reservefj40
Rapier Innovations
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:14:00 -
[339] - Quote
Stupid double post. |
Tetragammatron Prime
Pink Sockers
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:15:00 -
[340] - Quote
How many hp does it have?
I hope enough to warrant dropping dreads on it. Stealth bombers attacking sov structures is one of the worst things I've had to put up with in 0.0. Will be even worse in low sec where you can't bubble. It is ok if it has so much hp it takes them hours to chew through it with their torps. The tears are extra sweet when you bring in carriers rep it up in one triage cycle after they spend so long thinking they were the ones griefing by using gay stealth bombers.
edit: Nevermind I see. Those hp values are about right. |
|
Jake Centauri
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:16:00 -
[341] - Quote
The combat players love the change. The industrial players hate it. That about sums it up. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
102
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:16:00 -
[342] - Quote
so you have made the worst, most tedious activity aside from ice mining an even more crap dull experiance with even more hauling
you should **** the current pi system off compleatly.
go start again, look at the fanfest vidoes you made with populations, polution and all the intresting features you couldnt be bothered with and start again.
pi is the worst thing imo you have done in 6 years.
please revise the whole system not just make it even worse. 'ccp pi department' your shitting me right? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Sethose Olderon
Gryphon Chancellery Gryphon League
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:17:00 -
[343] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
I like the premise of allowing players to own Customs Offices, but what you propose in this comment is absolutely horrible. You must be aware than everyone hates Alarm Clock Ops. No one enjoys waking up at 5AM to defend a POS, and why would defending a Customs Office be any different. Preventing Customs Offices from having defenses, means someone will have to constantly defend it, and that is simply not fun.
When it comes to Outposts, POSs, Customs Offices, TCUs, and etc, I would suggest that you devise a mechanic that isn't "capture the flag". |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
168
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:21:00 -
[344] - Quote
Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES!
1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running.
2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own.
The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes!
C'mon CCP... THINK on this! Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Liandra Xi
The New Era C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:21:00 -
[345] - Quote
Jake Centauri wrote:The combat players love the change. The industrial players hate it. That about sums it up.
What do you think 0.0 producers mainly are? Industrialist in PVP alliances or PVP'ers doing industry on the side?
I don't know about all alliances but its certainly the latter mainly in our alliance, I think all producers can see the increased management is more than offset by CCP finally giving us "crops" to plant and burn. As long as they can remove Titans/Supercaps from dominating the fights then I think most 0.0 PI'ers can see this will result in a lot of fun fights. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:21:00 -
[346] - Quote
5 brutix at 800dp * 5 minutes = 1.2 million HP. Choose what gang size you want terrorizing the countryside...
In any case, putting item in reinforce should be easier than killing it, because the fights never happen during the reinforcement period. |
Aynen
SI Radio Split Infinity.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:22:00 -
[347] - Quote
Aynen wrote:I've been doing Ninja wh PI for a while, and it's pretty hard to catch me in such a way that I won't find my way back in because I use multiple alts and I picked a system which isn't overly busy. If one of my toons explodes, I'll lose an Iteron, possibly with a cargo bay full of PI goods, but that's quite an acceptable loss since it happens so rarely. My point is, I don't fear much for being permanently booted out of the system, and a little more chance of having to 'interact' with the locals is fine by me, will make it more exciting even. But that's from the perspetive of the ninja, not the locals. And the player owned costums office as described is exactly what they need to get rid of me entirely. That probably wasn't the design goal.
I'm thinking, what if one can 'invest' in the loyalty of the costums office's personel? This would essencially mean that the more you 'invest', the larger the volume they will traffic for you. In other words, if you can pay for it, you can increase your share of the 'bandwith' so to speak. This means it'll cost a lot of money to make the station exclusively operate for your corporation, decreasing the total revenue you can attain from PI. If you want maximum revenue, you'll have to accept that others can use the station aswell.
I just wanted to add that the negotiations for these 'investments' could well take place in upcoming walking in stations features. For a little extra synergy. |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
288
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:22:00 -
[348] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Chaos Incarnate wrote:No. The offices already have so much HP and long enough timers that no one in their right mind is going to bother with them. Increasing it further is just going to make it even worse.
Apparently you've never seem the numerous capital/super-cap fleets wandering around low-sec for easy kills. Get a titan or a mom on these and they will put it into reinforced in under 5 minutes. Even if it only get's shot at by a sub-cap fleet of 20-30 battleships, the logistics involved with getting a fleet together from a non-pvp corp in order to defend it is horrendous. I don't really think I need to remind you that industrial corps are the majority of the PI producers.
You have the entire length of the reinforcement timer to get into position. That's what it's there for. |
Januski
TradeWeb
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:22:00 -
[349] - Quote
Personally i think this hits lowsec pretty bad, it will remove most of PI from there. And the prices will skyrocket nicely. In fact, i have shitload of PI stuff that i intented to sell this weekend, i guess i wait another month or so since i have no POSses..
Question: If i setup a POCO in lowsec, how detailed intel from my wallet i can get when haulers drop by in there to load/unload?
|
Shikaka Zulu
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:22:00 -
[350] - Quote
So you made the only industry thing you can do in 0.0 as a solo player in yet another thing that needs the backing of a corp/alliance organised infrastructure. PI was something nice and small that anyone could get into without a lot of hassle for the alliance. Now they will need to make deal about who gets what planet, how much tax, who is allowed to do PI etz etz etz.
Why not simple remove the "can only place PI on planet held by your alliance thing" ? then people can ninja drop PI anywhere and it all becomes about getting the stuff out safely.
Think its a horrible horrible choice.
PS. How will i be reimbursed for my skills? now i will need anchoring and corp management skills to do PI. Before i only needed the PI skills.
|
|
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:23:00 -
[351] - Quote
dbrummer wrote:I'm not sure I fully understand the mechanics of the Player Owned Customs Office. I'm part of a corp that lives out of NPC 0.0 space, how would this affect us? Are all of our existing PI installations going to be destroyed when this feature is enabled? If not, how do we get our goo off if there's no POCO anchored? I feel like we need more details on this change so we can fully understand the changes.
I'm like a few other people here and am very limited in my playing time but enjoy the passive income PI generates. If this change requires more time or makes it more difficult to make isk from PI then why use it? I'm just worried that the PI income I use to buy PvP ships will disappear.
Our ambition is that some entrepreneur will operate a COs in your system and thereby maintaining the service you currently enjoy. With some luck, the taxes will be lowered, with some bad luck they will be higher, but given that the market prices are likely to rise, you are probably going to make a good buck regardless. The main danger in your scenario is that you won't have access to the customs office, either if you are not meeting the standing requirements of the owner or if there simply is no CO there.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Liandra Xi
The New Era C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:23:00 -
[352] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:5 brutix at 800dp * 5 minutes = 1.2 million HP. Choose what gang size you want terrorizing the countryside... In any case, putting item in reinforce should be easier than killing it.
And just as quick for a small logi gang to rep back up in the next 24+ hours till it exits RF too. Theres going to be lots of back and forth on some of these, great fun :D |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
288
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:26:00 -
[353] - Quote
Jake Centauri wrote:The combat players love the change. The industrial players hate it. That about sums it up.
No, the combat players hate it too because it involves more shooting at structures with tons of hp, ie that thing we already hate about sov warfare and POSs |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
647
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:26:00 -
[354] - Quote
The only thing I'm sceptical about is the ability to completely block access through standings GÇö I feel that should rather be a determining factor for setting a different (higher) tax rate. Based on standing alone, it just becomes a little too easy to completely blockade a planet without incurring any costs.
The economic warfare of offensively large tariffs should be enough. If the enemy want to use that planet anyway and fund your war against them by paying those outrageous tariffs, then let them choose to do that. The idea of giving your opponent such a large cut, alone, should be enough to keep them away. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
102
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:27:00 -
[355] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:dbrummer wrote:I'm not sure I fully understand the mechanics of the Player Owned Customs Office. I'm part of a corp that lives out of NPC 0.0 space, how would this affect us? Are all of our existing PI installations going to be destroyed when this feature is enabled? If not, how do we get our goo off if there's no POCO anchored? I feel like we need more details on this change so we can fully understand the changes.
I'm like a few other people here and am very limited in my playing time but enjoy the passive income PI generates. If this change requires more time or makes it more difficult to make isk from PI then why use it? I'm just worried that the PI income I use to buy PvP ships will disappear. Our ambition is that some entrepreneur will operate a COs in your system and thereby maintaining the service you currently enjoy. With some luck, the taxes will be lowered, with some bad luck they will be higher, but given that the market prices are likely to rise, you are probably going to make a good buck regardless. The main danger in your scenario is that you won't have access to the customs office, either if you are not meeting the standing requirements of the owner or if there simply is no CO there. Regards Omen
lol your joking right, everyone will crank tax up and pos fuel price will go mental.
are you just trying to **** poeple off eve wide at ccp? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Liandra Xi
The New Era C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:28:00 -
[356] - Quote
Chaos Incarnate wrote:Jake Centauri wrote:The combat players love the change. The industrial players hate it. That about sums it up. No, the combat players hate it too because it involves more shooting at structures with tons of hp, ie that thing we already hate about sov warfare and POSs
Except you don't have to attack them, you could just use your own to generate fights when someone else comes to attack them. No-one is forcing you to attack others CO's unless you want to generate fights that way. C'mon you seriously trying to say CCP gives us crops to burn and PVP'ers are not going to like it? Man what are you smoking? |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:29:00 -
[357] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:The overwhelming feeling I'm getting from this thread is: "Have you thought this through all the way?"
Please don't take this the wrong way. We do like the spirit of the feature. We the players simply feel this new feature could be abused severely. There are many cons and not many pros. Could the design team please take another conscious look at this feature taking all of the feedback into account before release?
I can see this turning into a threadnaught quite easily, because of the upcoming Dust release, among many other current, practical reasons. People care about PI, because it's something everyone can do. At least, it is in it's current state. We don't want that to change. I think it's already become a threadnaught. lol CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. OK, I'm just gonna come right out and say it....you guys really don't play your own game, do you? I mean, I think cruising around in Jove space with other GMs seems to have cut you off from what the spirit of eve is: screw over as many people as you can, getting as many ship kills as you can along the way. But seriously, people who control the customs offices will CERTAINLY deny access to people who don't have decent standings with them, or in the very least, hike the tax rate up to 90 - 100%. No one likes neutrals, or reds for that matter, flying around in their space.
Go look at the old forums and you'll see what a threadnaught was. Too many people these days ignore the forums. That combined with the fact that most threads get locked before they get too out of hand makes for relatively short threads these days. |
Holy One
SniggWaffe
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:29:00 -
[358] - Quote
Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me.
edit: Aidditionally turning PI in to technetium ie a monopoly of the few seems counter to the entire appeal of PI. Finally, making PI a massive time sink, defeats the point of PI. Oh finally, finally, if that time sink is merely more tedious micro management and bullshit, duh. Err.
Game design? How about you design something that isn't bottomlessly tedious and unrewarding for a change? |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:31:00 -
[359] - Quote
Liandra Xi wrote:X Gallentius wrote:5 brutix at 800dp * 5 minutes = 1.2 million HP. Choose what gang size you want terrorizing the countryside... In any case, putting item in reinforce should be easier than killing it. And just as quick for a small logi gang to rep back up in the next 24+ hours till it exits RF too. Theres going to be lots of back and forth on some of these, great fun :D
Lower the reinforced HP, the more offices can be reinforced in a given time. :) Hit and run at its finest.
Perhaps lower both so that it's easier for the blob to defend one PI structure, but make it more difficult to defend lots of them (your marauding gang warps in, pops a PI structure quickly, or ganks logi, then bails), etc... running battlefield, multiple locations of defence, stealth bombers cyno'ing into a system behind the lines and laying waste to it before the defenders can react. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:33:00 -
[360] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me.
Same here. I think i'll join the mass exodus from PI and start doing incursions instead. 3 more PI alts up for sale.... |
|
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:35:00 -
[361] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Go look at the old forums and you'll see what a threadnaught was. Too many people these days ignore the forums. That combined with the fact that most threads get locked before they get too out of hand makes for relatively short threads these days. 19 pages in under 3 hours. I'd say it's getting there. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:35:00 -
[362] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me.
lol you mean you took the time to train up 5 characters and you are now willing to give up at the drop of a hat? i think you are just overreacting for the sake of it... Solution to your problem - put your alts in a corp that holds customs offices and dry your tears.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:36:00 -
[363] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me.
edit: Aidditionally turning PI in to technetium ie a monopoly of the few seems counter to the entire appeal of PI. Finally, making PI a massive time sink, defeats the point of PI. Oh finally, finally, if that time sink is merely more tedious micro management and bullshit, duh. Err.
Game design? How about you design something that isn't bottomlessly tedious and unrewarding for a change?
It's things like this that makes me wonder if CCP did the calculations for where the stuff comes from based on characters tied to an Email address or just on characters. That would make their predictions quite interesting.
1)Change announced. 2)All the people running tons of alts suddenly stop feeding materials into the system.. 3)all hell breaks loose... |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:36:00 -
[364] - Quote
damn forum UI |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:38:00 -
[365] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me. lol you mean you took the time to train up 5 characters and you are now willing to give up at the drop of a hat? i think you are just overreacting for the sake of it... Solution to your problem - put your alts in a corp that holds customs offices and dry your tears.
Corps/alliances that can safely hold POCOs, aka 500+ member alliances, usually don't allow alts in other alliances without standings. I know that for a fact because I've had alts in a few of them...which were promptly kicked once they found out. |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:39:00 -
[366] - Quote
probbably been asked... but here it goes
is there a timeframe for launch of this?
not a specific date per se, but rather, wanting it part of the 0.0 expansion/patch or maybe summer next year? |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:40:00 -
[367] - Quote
I may have missed it but has an ETA been announced for this? |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:40:00 -
[368] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me. lol you mean you took the time to train up 5 characters and you are now willing to give up at the drop of a hat? i think you are just overreacting for the sake of it... Solution to your problem - put your alts in a corp that holds customs offices and dry your tears. Corps/alliances that can safely hold POCOs, aka 500+ member alliances, usually don't allow alts in other alliances without standings. I know that for a fact because I've had alts in a few of them...which were promptly kicked once they found out.
In this case having your alts in their corp will be an advantage as the planet tax will be going to them and not concord. |
gargars
Cohesion Inc Beyond-Repair
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:41:00 -
[369] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Rhavas wrote:Love the player-driven approach even if it is going to kill my income stream. Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome.
Questions: 1) Looks like we can now launch and avoid customs (subject to ugly volume restrictions) - please confirm. 2) Courier contracts at customs offices? This is the feature really needed/lacking from PI production. Coming? 3) When does this go live? 4) Are you sending Vaseline to POS owners? They'll need it when we producers factor this in to fuel pricing... 1) confirmed 2) Not planned, good idea though 3) I'm not sure if I am at liberty to tell, but it's ready to go4) If it turns out to be too much of an upset, we will take action.
OK I am still digesting this (and not liking what I hear so far in many ways) but want to ask why is it that this is 'ready to go' when as far as I know we never heard a word about this? Another implementation without player feedback IN ADVANCE.... really? Why even pretend to care about our opinions when the coding is obviously DONE? ('Ready to go').
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Handsome Hussein
44
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:42:00 -
[370] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Holy One wrote:I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else. Same here. I think i'll join the mass exodus from PI and start doing incursions instead. 3 more PI alts up for sale.... Confirming that my hauling/PI alt is already training for a Tengu. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
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tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Review and Evaluation Greater Realms
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:42:00 -
[371] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:You know... this is actually a pretty worthless change when it comes to wormholes. It makes no sense at all. Usually a single corp / alliance lives in a hole, and no one comes in from other systems to do PI. It's completely not feasible. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to change the way things work right now in wormholes. It really should be left as is in there. Pretty much this. There's no point in WHs having this because the only people using a WH's planets are those already living there. Noone else will use them, and noone else will shoot them. My 2 cents. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:43:00 -
[372] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me. lol you mean you took the time to train up 5 characters and you are now willing to give up at the drop of a hat? i think you are just overreacting for the sake of it... Solution to your problem - put your alts in a corp that holds customs offices and dry your tears. Corps/alliances that can safely hold POCOs, aka 500+ member alliances, usually don't allow alts in other alliances without standings. I know that for a fact because I've had alts in a few of them...which were promptly kicked once they found out. In this case having your alts in their corp will be an advantage as the planet tax will be going to them and not concord.
You've never been to 0.0 have you? Almost all alliances set tax rate at their stations for alliance members to 0%. That includes reprocessing and and market tax. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:44:00 -
[373] - Quote
questions to devs:
- what was the motivation for the upgrade step, why not include the materials of the upgrade in the construction step, and then is a just a simple anchor and online? Is that a way to avoid online ninja tactics?
- Will you provide 5 runs BPCs in concord store for a discount like the capital modules?
- This customs offices shields regenerate?
- Its possible to have a second and third version of this structure with more and less raw HP (for more / less money and materials of course) so people can have a choice to choose having in account their corp wallets size vs risk / defense capabilities -> (small, medium, large)
- Why not allow, In low sec, multiple customs offices (max 3 for planet) and let the market / concurrency / prices decide how this possibility plays out?
- The customs offices will show the corp/alliance logo?
- Will people attacking the costumer office in low sec gain aggression and drop in standings?
- If the custom office is only anchor, not upgraded, can I still shoot it and reinforce it?
- Can downgrade the customs offices and un-anchor it?
- The customs offices will need stront?
|
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
102
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:46:00 -
[374] - Quote
so this is the start of your dust-eve link?
fighting over pos fuel...lmfao
i gave up smoking weed a while ago, but can you pass round whatever you have been smoking at the CCP office please, cos id bet its some good ****.
fighting over pos fuell.. cant get over that, too funny CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Harassment Panda
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:47:00 -
[375] - Quote
Great addition to PI and a nice ISK sink.
I look forward to destroying them with my soon to be buffed Moros |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:47:00 -
[376] - Quote
gargars wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Rhavas wrote:Love the player-driven approach even if it is going to kill my income stream. Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome.
Questions: 1) Looks like we can now launch and avoid customs (subject to ugly volume restrictions) - please confirm. 2) Courier contracts at customs offices? This is the feature really needed/lacking from PI production. Coming? 3) When does this go live? 4) Are you sending Vaseline to POS owners? They'll need it when we producers factor this in to fuel pricing... 1) confirmed 2) Not planned, good idea though 3) I'm not sure if I am at liberty to tell, but it's ready to go4) If it turns out to be too much of an upset, we will take action. OK I am still digesting this (and not liking what I hear so far in many ways) but want to ask why is it that this is 'ready to go' when as far as I know we never heard a word about this? Another implementation without player feedback IN ADVANCE.... really? Why even pretend to care about our opinions when the coding is obviously DONE? ('Ready to go').
See some of my previous posts.
The developers have to listen to product management. The reason for hilmar's letter was that he was basically pushing new feature development down product management's throats. Product management (obviously) didn't get the memo. Development isn't as in charge as they used to be.
CCP has taken on the form of many larger companies. While the devs are ultimately responsible for delivering a product, it's product management that determines the product to be delivered. Blame them. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:48:00 -
[377] - Quote
I may have missed it but has an ETA been announced for this? |
Rhavas
The Corporation of Noble Sentiments
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:48:00 -
[378] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. Regards Omen
|
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:48:00 -
[379] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me. lol you mean you took the time to train up 5 characters and you are now willing to give up at the drop of a hat? i think you are just overreacting for the sake of it... Solution to your problem - put your alts in a corp that holds customs offices and dry your tears. Corps/alliances that can safely hold POCOs, aka 500+ member alliances, usually don't allow alts in other alliances without standings. I know that for a fact because I've had alts in a few of them...which were promptly kicked once they found out. In this case having your alts in their corp will be an advantage as the planet tax will be going to them and not concord. You've never been to 0.0 have you? Almost all alliances set tax rate at their stations for alliance members to 0%. That includes reprocessing and and market tax.
I'm sorry, did CCP say you can set a different tax rate for corp and the public? i must have missed that. if so i think that's a good thing. Either way, i'll be glad if pp stop doing PI because of this, as it means i'll get over 9000 isk for my coolant again
|
Farnfax
Bob and Doug Storage Company
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:48:00 -
[380] - Quote
Well I guess this will once again exclude the single players and small corporations for doing PI in lowsec. I think a lot of changes could make PI better, like being able to contract materials in and out of a Customs Office, but this idea may force me to give up doing PI and T2 production.
|
|
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:49:00 -
[381] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me. lol you mean you took the time to train up 5 characters and you are now willing to give up at the drop of a hat? i think you are just overreacting for the sake of it... Solution to your problem - put your alts in a corp that holds customs offices and dry your tears. Corps/alliances that can safely hold POCOs, aka 500+ member alliances, usually don't allow alts in other alliances without standings. I know that for a fact because I've had alts in a few of them...which were promptly kicked once they found out. In this case having your alts in their corp will be an advantage as the planet tax will be going to them and not concord. You've never been to 0.0 have you? Almost all alliances set tax rate at their stations for alliance members to 0%. That includes reprocessing and and market tax.
I'm sorry, did CCP say you can set a different tax rate for corp and the public? i must have missed that. if so i think that's a good thing. Either way, i'll be glad if pp stop doing PI because of this, as it means i'll get over 9000 isk for my coolant again
|
Holy One
SniggWaffe
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:49:00 -
[382] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Holy One wrote:Well thats the end of PI for me then. I cba with all that bollocks. I did/do PI because it represents the least waste of my time for the most return.
I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else.
Anyone want to buy 5 PI alts? Evemail me. lol you mean you took the time to train up 5 characters and you are now willing to give up at the drop of a hat? i think you are just overreacting for the sake of it... Solution to your problem - put your alts in a corp that holds customs offices and dry your tears.
I already have a full time job bro, I just don't need that extra level of hassle and micro tedium (its already incredibly boring and time consuming/risky enough farming planets in low and null). PI was accessible and easy to get in to. Now its not going to be. I don't have the time or the inclination to faff with that. Given there are several easier ways to make isk, which do not require loads of alts, I'm not gonna go there.
Also, since I will no longer have a use for all these PI alts, which I will be selling, that's CCP out 3 plexes every month. I hope that is something they're happy about. Cos I won't be the only one who decided, along with supers, that they can no longer justify the expense of additional accounts/characters for such little 'fun' or 'reward'. Since those accounts were paid for with plex ( in my case) and there is no desire to pay real money to keep them going, then they close.
We knew PI conflict was coming, but I don't think turning all my jew golds in to a POS anyone can blow up or exclude me from unless I have a 5000 man alliance to back me up, was what we were expecting.
C'est la vie and .. toodles! |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:49:00 -
[383] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:so this is the start of your dust-eve link?
fighting over pos fuel...lmfao
i gave up smoking weed a while ago, but can you pass round whatever you have been smoking at the CCP office please, cos id bet its some good ****.
fighting over pos fuell.. cant get over that, too funny
"Just walk away. You can put a stop to all of this. Just walk away, and spare your lives." |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
288
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:51:00 -
[384] - Quote
Liandra Xi wrote:Chaos Incarnate wrote:Jake Centauri wrote:The combat players love the change. The industrial players hate it. That about sums it up. No, the combat players hate it too because it involves more shooting at structures with tons of hp, ie that thing we already hate about sov warfare and POSs Except you don't have to attack them, you could just use your own to generate fights when someone else comes to attack them. No-one is forcing you to attack others CO's unless you want to generate fights that way. C'mon you seriously trying to say CCP gives us crops to burn and PVP'ers are not going to like it? Man what are you smoking?
It's not 'burning crops' if it takes a day and a half and a twenty-man fleet to kill one of them in a timely fashion, it's POS warfare all over again. Zzz. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:51:00 -
[385] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:[quote=Dominus Alterai][quote=Holy One] stuff
9k is a conservative estimate. |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
177
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:52:00 -
[386] - Quote
This is a great idea. The structure doesn't have too much EHP compared to all of the sov structures, making it a good target for bored small gangs. It also allows corporations and alliances to take "ownership" of planets. I am also glad that a risk free income source has been removed from null and lowsec.
I also appreciate the bandwidth buff because many planets have their resources spread out all over, and it makes it easier to farm resources far away from eachother.
A couple of questions:
In reinforced mode, will importing and exporting to and from the customs office be disabled?
If you destroy the customs office, will you be able to take whatever's inside for your own uses?
To all the haters out there, you can still do PI in highsec if you feel that low/null is too dangerous for you. |
Trainwreck McGee
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:56:00 -
[387] - Quote
Another big **** you to people living in WH. Thanks CCP for being A giant stinking ******* CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool |
Gallion
GALACTIC GUARDIAN KNIGHTS
322
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:56:00 -
[388] - Quote
I've got some concerns. -for those that already have PI on Null sec planets will the good now transport to the player Owned Gantry/office? -Will warping to the Customs office now warp to the player owed Gantry/office when its there? -profit from the highs sec locations gonna be even less profitable? -and is their a deployment date decided for it yet? This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
45
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:57:00 -
[389] - Quote
Handsome ******* wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Holy One wrote:I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else. Same here. I think i'll join the mass exodus from PI and start doing incursions instead. 3 more PI alts up for sale.... Confirming that my hauling/PI alt is already training for a Tengu.
I did not have time to read the entire thread, can someone bring me up to speed on why people would rather waste their PI characters on another profession instead of:
1: Continuing to do PI in Empire Space, just as they always have. Granted, the fee for import/export will be 10% instead of 5% now. 2: Use the CO someone else has put up if it is in low or null sec, assuming the taxes aren't too high. 3: If those taxes are too high, or you are not allowed access, simply use the launchpad as you always could. 4: If there is no CO in place, form a small PI corp for the purposes of putting up your own CO. You may even earn extra income from the taxing of other people using those planets.
Did I miss something meaningful? Or are people just throwing up their hands because they don't understand or didn't read the blog correctly? To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
189
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:57:00 -
[390] - Quote
This whole thing looks great on paper, but its making a lot of assumptions about EVE players that simply make me cringe and wonder if the PI team actually interacts with the average members of the player base.
- PI resources, especially in 0.0, are the sole benefit of the entities controlling the area. IE: Goonswarm doesn't allow White Noise. to freely jaunt around our space doing whatever they want to. We'd never consider letting entities that didn't pay us a significant sum to use resources in our sovereign space, regardless of the ability to tax the output. Why would we supply the means to resist us to our enemies when we could simply cut them off from it?
- Things with massive EHP and defenses suck. Plain and simple. This was the complaint with the old POS-spamming Sov system and is one of the major complaints with the Dominion system. Adding another structure with EHP that requires more than a medium-sized (40+ person) gang to reinforce or destroy is only going to cause space to be littered with player-built CO's that no one want to waste time destroTing unless they have a dire, compelling reason to do it. Instead, the creation of a CO that can be knocked into reinfocement mode by small or medium-sized groups in a non-lucrative amount of time would be much more beneficial to the community and promote destruction of assets and actually undocking to defend them from small, stray roving gangs. As well, if I'm with a small group and have an entire system shut-down from external traffic, I'd want the ability to significantly impact industrial assets with that small group considering we have military control of the area. Require the owner to put up a significant defense of resources (BUT no defensive structures as they GREATLY DECREASE any "fun" that comes from structure grinds and provide incentives to [i][not/i] actively show up for defenses) rather than make it a royal pain and boring fiasco to even put these structures into a reinforce cycle.
- Theres is little to no logic in allowing CO's to be deployed in lowsec without the consent of the holding sovereign NPC entity. As pointed out, a nullsec, player-controlled entity would never willingly allow a neutral or enemy group access to strategic resources in their sovereign space. Likewise, I can hardly believe that (for example) the Amarr Empire would allow a mostly Minmatar-loyal corporation to freely deploy a structure that directly facilitates the harvesting of precious resources in their space. Much like lowsec POS's, CO's in lowsec should require some form of contract between the sovereign NPC entity and the corporation to allow for its functioning (a la starbase vouchers). The costs for this could logically be recouped through taxing of the CO's exports by the controlling entity.
- Granularity and corporate security seem to have been overlooked a bit. I, as a corp director, am not going to hand out anchoring rights to every tom-****-and-jane in my corp just so they can run a CO for their private use. I'm also not going to let everyone have access to the resources of an export from the CO when they're directly related to how my corp's POS assets run. Why? Because even I would steal those resources if I was given a chance and there was minimal way for me to be caught by other corp members. That's the cold, dark world of EVE Online. Unless there's abilities for me as a corp director to audit any and all PI transactions, PI would be limited in my corp to only those that were trusted and easily track-able via our external audit programs.
The same would apply to any other entities using a CO my corp controls. I'd want to know what they're producing and what quantities they're exporting to adequately tax them for the privilege of using our CO.
Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD |
|
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:57:00 -
[391] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
OK I am smelling doom, no offense but you saying things like the above prove you DO NOT play this game or really understand many things vital to making this change work in any way. So much for the 'new improved CCP'... |
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:57:00 -
[392] - Quote
gargars wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Rhavas wrote:Love the player-driven approach even if it is going to kill my income stream. Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome.
Questions: 1) Looks like we can now launch and avoid customs (subject to ugly volume restrictions) - please confirm. 2) Courier contracts at customs offices? This is the feature really needed/lacking from PI production. Coming? 3) When does this go live? 4) Are you sending Vaseline to POS owners? They'll need it when we producers factor this in to fuel pricing... 1) confirmed 2) Not planned, good idea though 3) I'm not sure if I am at liberty to tell, but it's ready to go4) If it turns out to be too much of an upset, we will take action. OK I am still digesting this (and not liking what I hear so far in many ways) but want to ask why is it that this is 'ready to go' when as far as I know we never heard a word about this? Another implementation without player feedback IN ADVANCE.... really? Why even pretend to care about our opinions when the coding is obviously DONE? ('Ready to go').
We are ready to go when we have sifted through your feedback and made any necessary changes. For once we are not pressed for time, this is a good thing. The CSM were notified 2011.08.19 11:22:00, the design was shown to them and we made several tweaks as a result. If you want to see things UBER early the CSM is the place to be!
Regards Omen
I have asked our lovely community reps , and I can say this much about the release of this feature: between US Thanksgiving and Christmas
Game Designer Team Pi |
|
David Carel
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 17:59:00 -
[393] - Quote
Kaminu wrote:A good extension would be to set different taxes for different standings. i.E.
Corp = 0% Alliance = 2% +10 = 5% +5 = 10% 0 = no access -5 = no access -10 = no access
Why not selling the service to anyone that is willing to pay for it? If a player CO is placed in low sec why should the owner not earn more from player he dont know as from his friends?
Thank you very much for copying my post. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
102
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:00:00 -
[394] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:This is a great idea. The structure doesn't have too much EHP compared to all of the sov structures, making it a good target for bored small gangs. It also allows corporations and alliances to take "ownership" of planets. I am also glad that a risk free income source has been removed from null and lowsec. I also appreciate the bandwidth buff because many planets have their resources spread out all over, and it makes it easier to farm resources far away from eachother. A couple of questions: In reinforced mode, will importing and exporting to and from the customs office be disabled? If you destroy the customs office, will you be able to take whatever's inside for your own uses? To all the haters out there, you can still do PI in highsec if you feel that low/null is too dangerous for you.
has nothing to do with its location, this is a dumb ass change to a terribal 'profession', that will just make it more terrible and drive up pos fuel/parts/towers t2 items.
pi itself need a massive make over, not the ******* collection points.. CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:01:00 -
[395] - Quote
On a side note: I was gonna reactivate my PI account and take it into low sec. Now I think I'm just gonna wait and see how this works out b4 reactivating it. Might not be worth it. |
Handsome Hussein
46
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:01:00 -
[396] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:To all the haters out there, you can still do PI in highsec if you feel that low/null is too dangerous for you. Nice deflection there.
The hating isn't about danger but rather that PI will be coalesced to larger and larger groups like so many other things in EVE (sov, for instance).
It's a dead-end for the casual player now. Our best option is to stop selling our products, create a stockpile, and wait for the inevitable market price explosion. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
169
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:02:00 -
[397] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES!
1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running.
2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own.
The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes!
C'mon CCP... THINK on this!
CCP Omen - I may not be on the CSM, but could you take a moment to consider this? It really makes no sense to include wormholes in this change at all. I'm not going to tax myself or my corp, so there's no one to tax there. I have up to ten planets being worked, so I need to halt fuel production and come up with ten of these things that we won't use anyhow?
This is a really really bad change with regards to J-space. Please take a moment to consider that. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Holy One
SniggWaffe
45
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:03:00 -
[398] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:EI Digin wrote:This is a great idea. The structure doesn't have too much EHP compared to all of the sov structures, making it a good target for bored small gangs. It also allows corporations and alliances to take "ownership" of planets. I am also glad that a risk free income source has been removed from null and lowsec. I also appreciate the bandwidth buff because many planets have their resources spread out all over, and it makes it easier to farm resources far away from eachother. A couple of questions: In reinforced mode, will importing and exporting to and from the customs office be disabled? If you destroy the customs office, will you be able to take whatever's inside for your own uses? To all the haters out there, you can still do PI in highsec if you feel that low/null is too dangerous for you. has nothing to do with its location, this is a dumb ass change to a terribal 'profession', that will just make it more terrible and drive up pos fuel/parts/towers t2 items. pi itself need a massive make over, not the ******* collection points..
Bro its CCP. Everything they do revolves around a large collidable object and blobs. Always has ..
And yeah, someone else will have to manufacture the 1.5m t2 missiles I *was* doing every week from PI. And buy the plexes I was buying with the proceeds.
That someone will probably be in Test or Goons.
|
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:04:00 -
[399] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:[quote=gargars][quote=CCP Omen][quote=Rhavas]
We are ready to go when we have sifted through your feedback and made any necessary changes. For once we are not pressed for time, this is a good thing. The CSM were notified 2011.08.19 11:22:00, the design was shown to them and we made several tweaks as a result. If you want to see things UBER early the CSM is the place to be!
Regards Omen
I have asked our lovely community reps , and I can say this much about the release of this feature: between US Thanksgiving and Christmas
The CSM APPROVED of this?!?! :D |
JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Narwhals Ate My Duck
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:05:00 -
[400] - Quote
Carbon Compounds are forever~
CCP + CSM love is on a roll <3 |
|
Kelsi Darr
Orbital Express LTD Ocularis Inferno
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:05:00 -
[401] - Quote
Hm.
I let PI sit fallow for ages after the extractor change. Good change, but I couldn't be arsed to deal with the tedium of changing everything. I'd recently gotten back into PI on a high sec alt of mine, and since I've been running around low sec with several characters of late I was considering setting up some low sec PI operations.
I'm glad that I got this warning in time to put an end to that silliness. ^_^ |
Basil Wencislas
The Skunkwerks E C L I P S E
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:07:00 -
[402] - Quote
I tried finding any info on the subject but haven't seen anything. I am curious how launchpads will work with this new system. For example, if a planet does not yet have a custom's office, as I expect many will when this goes live, will the launch pads be able to send/receive just like a command center without using the customs office?
Furthermore, if making changes to a PI system, the Storage facility needs an improvement to be useful, as of right now its relatively pointless considering it has half the storage capacity of a launchpad and relatively the same load requirements. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:08:00 -
[403] - Quote
If you launch items from a container at the command center (not using customs office) can you evade the taxes?
How does that work? NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
114
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:09:00 -
[404] - Quote
ok i calmed down a bit but tell us why ccp i read the blog 3 times now
I can understand you allow this in nullsec where nullsec allances a can control who acces their planets and get some profit out of it ; tho like a previous poster wrote ' if you can't control acces to your systems you don't deserve sov
But why low sec aswell , it is empire controlled right , sure there is no concord but it is empire controlled Alot of us already taking a risk , granted a low risk doing pi in low sec so why make it harder and more cumbersome for us
honestly i don't see any pro in this except if you are a large nullsec alliance I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
SokoleOko
Death Wish. Ineluctable.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:09:00 -
[405] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Dr Mercy wrote:Any comments on HP levels? =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000 * Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000 Regards Omen
Perfect, yet another thing you can shoot/destroy only with capitals, because otherwise there are better things to do in evenings. So - an incentive to bring/use BLOBS.
And I was stupid enough to think that something so unimportant as PI could be a viable target for roaming gangs to harass local residents.
Instead of putting another iHub/POS-like structure with RF timers (and lol-killmails), make it so that a 20 man gang can "incapacitate" it in 15 minutes for like 6/12 hours. Then it will start working again without being repped and no, you can't destroy it. This way local residents can choose - fight or wait. |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
114
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:11:00 -
[406] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:If you launch items from a container at the command center (not using customs office) can you evade the taxes?
How does that work? your journal under the tab planetary launches you can launch a limited amount of your pi into orbit with your command center I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:11:00 -
[407] - Quote
Basil Wencislas wrote:I tried finding any info on the subject but haven't seen anything. I am curious how launchpads will work with this new system. For example, if a planet does not yet have a custom's office, as I expect many will when this goes live, will the launch pads be able to send/receive just like a command center without using the customs office?
Furthermore, if making changes to a PI system, the Storage facility needs an improvement to be useful, as of right now its relatively pointless considering it has half the storage capacity of a launchpad and relatively the same load requirements.
This ^
I'd like more details on the PG and CPU consumption changes involved - if any. There are changes to make this feature viable, right?
There's a lot of information in this thread that should be mirrored back to the original blog post. |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:13:00 -
[408] - Quote
I see some problems with this idea and some good ideas.
I would first suggest a phase in period. Allow the NPC custom office to remain until a player corp anchors one around the same planet. At that point the NPC office is removed. This helps avoid any major disruption in the markets as the transition occurs. (Note if the player one is destroyed the NPC one does not magically reappear). If you remove all the NPC ones and then disallow anyone from doing PI without a customs office in orbit you will kill the expansion as it will take some time to build that many customs office, have you checked the database to see how many planets are actually producing PI (of course removing the high sec planets).
Another way to prevent disruption in 0.0 would be to transfer simply the NPC custom offices to player ones under the control of the executive of the alliance controlling sovereignty. In systems not controlled they would disappear.
There is no way you will stop the blob. These are far to expensive to have fewer hp than suggested. A 100 man Maelstrom or Abaddon fleet will cut them down pretty quick and could do a constellation in a few hours. I know some small guys are going but we aren't going to field that many, there are to many entities that will that you have to account for it. Even if you halved the hp they'd still bring 100. (Its faster). (Oh and fast sieging dreads will kill it much faster...hint hint....)
I like the idea that others have put forth that of being able to set different tax rates for different groups based on standings.
If the customs office is owned by the controlling alliance perhaps there should be some advantage to it, a boost to hp or similar. There should be some advantage to the sovereign alliance, but that doesn't necessarily have to be that it has to be only they can put down. A HP bonus might be another nice alternative bonus. Making them stronger in your space and weaker in others.
|
G Taa
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:13:00 -
[409] - Quote
ok, so as far as I can tell the only people liking this are the ADD crowd that just like to blow things up and annoy people?
And if I get it right basically it boil down to blocking PI on a first come first served basis, extorting the tax rate to make it unprofitable and blow up and put nusciance claims on other peoples systems?
There is not one thing I like about this idea.
I look forward to another long winded apology in the near future after a swath of people getting pissed off and leaving. Again. |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
37
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:13:00 -
[410] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:I have asked our lovely community reps , and I can say this much about the release of this feature: between US Thanksgiving and Christmas
With the BPC only comming from the FW & Concord LP stores, we're going to need some serious time to get the supply chain filled with enough units to meet the early demand.
IMO, if you are planning to offline the NPC COs by Christmas, we need those LP stores chugging out BPCs NOW. Even if it's only a placeholder item that we can build from later, we need to get this moving.
Only 67 shopping days till Christmas!! |
|
Neechi HollanderDanny
Sith Squirrels
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:16:00 -
[411] - Quote
Question:
What will happen to PI-Items inside the current Custom Office's after the patch? Will it be destroyed or will it be moved to an Outpost? |
Holy One
SniggWaffe
45
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:16:00 -
[412] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:dbrummer wrote:I'm not sure I fully understand the mechanics of the Player Owned Customs Office. I'm part of a corp that lives out of NPC 0.0 space, how would this affect us? Are all of our existing PI installations going to be destroyed when this feature is enabled? If not, how do we get our goo off if there's no POCO anchored? I feel like we need more details on this change so we can fully understand the changes.
I'm like a few other people here and am very limited in my playing time but enjoy the passive income PI generates. If this change requires more time or makes it more difficult to make isk from PI then why use it? I'm just worried that the PI income I use to buy PvP ships will disappear. Our ambition is that some entrepreneur will operate a COs in your system and thereby maintaining the service you currently enjoy. With some luck, the taxes will be lowered, with some bad luck they will be higher, but given that the market prices are likely to rise, you are probably going to make a good buck regardless. The main danger in your scenario is that you won't have access to the customs office, either if you are not meeting the standing requirements of the owner or if there simply is no CO there. Regards Omen
Did it occur to you that the big alliances will just use alt corps to buy up all the CO's and shut them down, so they can control the price of everything from missiles to nanite paste and dictate the supply and demand based on their completely unassailable assets in null? As per usual? I'm just blown away by how ******** this idea is bro. Seriously. Did you learn nothing from technetium? |
Esker Sheep
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:17:00 -
[413] - Quote
pussnheels wrote: But why low sec aswell , it is empire controlled right , sure there is no concord but it is empire controlled Alot of us already taking a risk , granted a low risk doing pi in low sec so why make it harder and more cumbersome for us
honestly i don't see any pro in this except if you are a large nullsec alliance
You can moon mine in low sec right? Why not operate customs offices. Stations in low sec systems are run by different corps. Why can't the customs offices. There is logic behind this.
|
Jake Centauri
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:17:00 -
[414] - Quote
Neechi HollanderDanny wrote:Question:
What will happen to PI-Items inside the current Custom Office's after the patch? Will it be destroyed or will it be moved to an Outpost?
I believe the dev said that the CO hangar contents will be magically transported to a nearby station or outpost, presumably a neutral one. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
57
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:18:00 -
[415] - Quote
ANYTHING THAT PULLS FIGHTS AWAY FROM STATIONS AND STAR GATES IS A GOOD THING...
Qwick question... can i please use my hacking skills to fool the customs office into thinking i have goodstandings?
there could be an altert sent out like "pos under attack" if the office detects me trying to hack it... |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
50
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:18:00 -
[416] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:You know... this is actually a pretty worthless change when it comes to wormholes. It makes no sense at all. Usually a single corp / alliance lives in a hole, and no one comes in from other systems to do PI. It's completely not feasible. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to change the way things work right now in wormholes. It really should be left as is in there.
I think it makes sense considering that w-space has no existing infrastructure and it's your responsibility to provide it, instead of just receiving a free orbital structure to help you harvest from the planets.
Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
573
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:21:00 -
[417] - Quote
Interesting. This will surely turn into something making ammo producers happy
|
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Candente
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:21:00 -
[418] - Quote
Firstly, I donGÇÖt understand the devGÇÖs approach of GÇ£letGÇÖs try this first and if it doesnGÇÖt work weGÇÖll change it.GÇ¥ EveGÇÖs market is a delicate beast, and for many well-thought comments on this thread, it is more than evident that for people who actually play and use PI feature within the context of the gameGÇÖs environment and politics, most of the changes will introduce more problems.
I think we universally agree that this change hurts ninja-PI. As said, lowsec planets will either have CO owned by large alliances who can field blob warfare, or not enough CO since anyone erects one will be taken down by the blob. I donGÇÖt do ninja-PI myself but I seriously do not see the reason for this part of the gameplay to be effectively removed by the hard reality of the gameGÇÖs social structure.
Another important question isGǪ why not allow upgradable defense on CO? The current HP spec looks like there will be only two groups attacking the offices: blobs and stealthbomber greifers. Blobing structure in Eve is uninteresting; I think we have a consensus. It may make sense in a weird way in 0.0 but it simply is not interesting for wspace fights. It will either be an invasion, where the attacker side is committed to stay in system despite the ever-changing static exits, or steathbombers who has nothing better to do other than generating spam mails to some directors.
Making CO upgradable is a natural choice of course, IMO. No, PI haulers donGÇÖt need to become immune to ganks at the offices, since the office can simply be locked to only shoot back when itself is being attacked. CO should function more like PoS, allow players to place modular defense (in exchange, consume fuel, and need to choose between more defense or more industrial functions), and should have HP and reinforce timer adjusted to what kind of system it is in (nullsec, wspace, lowsec should have different rules). In essence, the CO should have its sturdiness sensible to its surrounding environment.
Anyway, the GÇ£planGÇ¥ from the devblog sounds like a poorly drafted idea that ignores reality of the game and will create too many problems. IGÇÖd say the dev needs time to think this through and make this change more sensible to more people who actually do PI.
PS: I just saw there seems to be a deadline to rush for... and no, I don't think implement this half-baked idea between thanksgiving and christmas will benefit the players. It will be the crappy Tyrannis PI all again. |
Aynen
SI Radio Split Infinity.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:21:00 -
[419] - Quote
Rees Noturana wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:You know... this is actually a pretty worthless change when it comes to wormholes. It makes no sense at all. Usually a single corp / alliance lives in a hole, and no one comes in from other systems to do PI. It's completely not feasible. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to change the way things work right now in wormholes. It really should be left as is in there. I think it makes sense considering that w-space has no existing infrastructure and it's your responsibility to provide it, instead of just receiving a free orbital structure to help you harvest from the planets.
There's an important difference between something making sense from a background story point of view and something making sense from a gamplay point of view. In other words, it being logical storywise doesn't always make it fun to play. |
Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:21:00 -
[420] - Quote
Well just the other day I was clicking clicking clicking while setting up new planets and wondering what was wrong with me. I kept thinking that any of my real life friends would think I was crazy to spend so much time doing something that wasn't fun in any way shape or form. And now I find that there will be absolutely no profit in any of that work and I will lose my low sec planets as well.
Thanks for giving me some good motivation for canceling my three accounts CCP! |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
648
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:22:00 -
[421] - Quote
tgl3 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:You know... this is actually a pretty worthless change when it comes to wormholes. It makes no sense at all. Usually a single corp / alliance lives in a hole, and no one comes in from other systems to do PI. It's completely not feasible. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to change the way things work right now in wormholes. It really should be left as is in there. Pretty much this. There's no point in WHs having this because the only people using a WH's planets are those already living there. Noone else will use them, and noone else will shoot them. My 2 cents. GǪwhich means tax-free (or 100% taxed, which goes straight back into your own coffers) PI products produce en masse (because it's 0.0), which means you can outproduce and undercut all those silly highsecers. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
178
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:23:00 -
[422] - Quote
Handsome ******* wrote: Nice deflection there.
The hating isn't about danger but rather that PI will be coalesced to larger and larger groups like so many other things in EVE (sov, for instance).
It's a dead-end for the casual player now. Our best option is to stop selling our products, create a stockpile, and wait for the inevitable market price explosion.
If you "own" space, should you not have the ability to use it and deny everyone else access? Eve is a massive multiplayer game, if you choose to play "casually" you can keep your PI to highsec where there is no risk, or you can team up with friends or business partners and take over a constellation of lowsec or nullsec.
SokoleOko wrote: Perfect, yet another thing you can shoot/destroy only with capitals, because otherwise there are better things to do in evenings. So - an incentive to bring/use BLOBS. You have got to be insane to drop dreads on a structure with 7.5m ehp to shoot. For a comparison, a small pos has more or less the same amount of ehp, but customs offices will (should?) have less resists, and of course a customs office will have no guns.
Let's say you have a group of 15 friends who want to troll a larger alliance. You all take bombers and head on over to the system, it will take you about 15 to 20 minutes to reinforce the customs office, and much less time to destroy it if you decide to. It's easy griefing for little effort if you keep reinforcing (and killing) the same customs office over and over again.
Holy One wrote: Did it occur to you that the big alliances will just use alt corps to buy up all the CO's and shut them down, so they can control the price of everything from missiles to nanite paste and dictate the supply and demand based on their completely unassailable assets in null? As per usual? I'm just blown away by how ******** this idea is bro. Seriously. Did you learn nothing from technetium?
Try and stop us
|
Zex Maxwell
Mad Bombers Guns and Alcohol
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:23:00 -
[423] - Quote
Here is an Idea:
If its not "worth it" for the capsuleers to fight over and we want to prevent greafing or blobbing. why not let the people from Dust 514 fight over it under the name of the corp. Matches will already be regulated by numbers. you can set a amount of capture time after a win of a match(one win = one day or somthing), and it will make the little Dust players feel more important.
Sure this won't fix the now, but It will at least hold the idea off till dust is done. lets face it, PI is as boring as Farmville with out Dust and currently all we are doing is milking a planetary cow.
Before we screw up PI even more, can we get Dust done where it would make better sense on why PI is needed in the first place? |
Andrea Griffin
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:24:00 -
[424] - Quote
Is there any possibility of combining a HP target AND an occupancy target?
The problem with a HP-only target is that you can drop a bob on the CO, reinforce it in 5 minutes, and move on. Plus, the HP is large enough to discourage small gang activity.
It would be awesome if it worked a little more like this:
CO is attacked. At 25% shields, the field must be occupied for 30 minutes. After 30 minutes of occupancy, it goes into reinforced.
If the HP is cut by half then the lone gunman will still be discouraged from attacking every CO he sees. With a timer involved at the same time, it really reduces the effectiveness of the blob. The blob can get through the HP quickly but still has to wait out the timer. An occupancy timer will keep people on the field and encourage PvP. It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Sporx Utensil
Colossus Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:26:00 -
[425] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:
way to go ccp you've just killed off PI
yep. really, really bad idea.
"game designer" in his ccp title.... lol can't stop laughing
|
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Review and Evaluation Greater Realms
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:26:00 -
[426] - Quote
Tippia wrote:tgl3 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:You know... this is actually a pretty worthless change when it comes to wormholes. It makes no sense at all. Usually a single corp / alliance lives in a hole, and no one comes in from other systems to do PI. It's completely not feasible. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to change the way things work right now in wormholes. It really should be left as is in there. Pretty much this. There's no point in WHs having this because the only people using a WH's planets are those already living there. Noone else will use them, and noone else will shoot them. My 2 cents. GǪwhich means tax-free (or 100% taxed, which goes straight back into your own coffers) PI products produce en masse (because it's 0.0), which means you can outproduce and undercut all those silly highsecers. Had this pointed out to me in a chat channel a few minutes ago. Very true! \o/ |
Siigari Kitawa
Ironclad Forge
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:26:00 -
[427] - Quote
That font makes me want to claw my eyes out. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
46
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:26:00 -
[428] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES!
1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running.
2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own.
The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes!
C'mon CCP... THINK on this! CCP Omen - I may not be on the CSM, but could you take a moment to consider this? It really makes no sense to include wormholes in this change at all. I'm not going to tax myself or my corp, so there's no one to tax there. I have up to ten planets being worked, so I need to halt fuel production and come up with ten of these things that we won't use anyhow? This is a really really bad change with regards to J-space. Please take a moment to consider that.
Valid point, but there is more to it than that.
The new CO system can and will have an impact of corps that wish to take your wormhole, not to mention static wormholes that have fairly regular visitors.
If someone wishes to take over your WH, they have to consider that if they wish to fully utilize it they will need to spend the time to remove your infrastructure. I f they wish to harass you, they now have another way to do so.
If you wish to move to another WH, you too will have these same advantages and disadvantages to weigh.
Also, of course you can place a zero % tax on your CO... but most corps would consider at least a 5% tax on import/export. Especially when you consider that if your corp members were doing PI on an already less lucurative high sec planet they would be paying 10% now. In fact, under the current system they are already paying 5% with none of that going to benefit the corp. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:26:00 -
[429] - Quote
Looking forward to these changes. Any chance we'll also see the ability for corpmates to trade stuff planet-side (as we were promised when PI first came out?). It'd be nice to put more multiplayer into it. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
168
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:27:00 -
[430] - Quote
now i know i'l never do PI outside of highsec
my ass will i pay additional taxes to some random guy or build/buy a customs office which we all know will be overpriced XD |
|
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:29:00 -
[431] - Quote
I'm sorry, while this sounds like an interesting ideal, I don't think CCP has the ability to roll this out and not completely f'up the entire PI base. Look at the initial PI introduction and the problems and bugs that came with it. Do you really think they have the skill and patience to actually properly test this on SiSi like none of their other expansions-with-bugs.
CCP's history of rife with introduction and disinterest of new features. They like to start something but become bored with details and move to the next shiny new thing. The tax situation and roles are complicated and will need constant tweaking. I'm afraid this will be another faction war roll out. They will put it in there with all sorts of grand promises of doing something to tweak and fix but it will never occur. How many years has it been since anything was done to FW and now it is a place to get LP.
I especially find humorous the ideal that defense will be "new corporations coming together". They blatantly admit that there is no way to defend or prevent massive griefing and they "hope" the solution is people play well together. They don't see the irony in the current super-cap cluster blobs that roam around without any counter. I guess PL sitting in low sec with all their supers will play nice with the local corps wanting to do PI...maybe those small corps can come together and try to convince 1 super cap pilot to go agaubst the PL fleet in defense
This seems targeted at the oldest and largest alliances, this is a huge buff for them and a shot in the nuts for everyone else. I like how this is admitted with the statement "the small guy should use CONCORD owned custom offices." CCP knows these small guys will leave low sec now and fill the population of empire dwellers, leaving null and low even less populated. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:29:00 -
[432] - Quote
doublepost |
Della Monk
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:30:00 -
[433] - Quote
I have pretty much no relevant experience, but how about some sort of effect on tax collection when a CO is reinforced? Halve taxes or reduce them by some other fixed percentage, or wipe them out entirely. If someone overtaxes you, get some friends together and throw a little tea party when it's time to shift your goods. Provides incentive for the owner to set agreeable taxes, and mercenaries on both sides of things. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:30:00 -
[434] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:5 brutix at 800dp * 5 minutes = 1.2 million HP. Choose what gang size you want terrorizing the countryside... In any case, putting item in reinforce should be easier than killing it, because the fights never happen during the reinforcement period. Don't forget about resists. And cap stability over time. And ammo re-supply for those 5 BC.
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
169
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:30:00 -
[435] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES!
1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running.
2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own.
The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes!
C'mon CCP... THINK on this! CCP Omen - I may not be on the CSM, but could you take a moment to consider this? It really makes no sense to include wormholes in this change at all. I'm not going to tax myself or my corp, so there's no one to tax there. I have up to ten planets being worked, so I need to halt fuel production and come up with ten of these things that we won't use anyhow? This is a really really bad change with regards to J-space. Please take a moment to consider that. Valid point, but there is more to it than that. The new CO system can and will have an impact of corps that wish to take your wormhole, not to mention static wormholes that have fairly regular visitors. If someone wishes to take over your WH, they have to consider that if they wish to fully utilize it they will need to spend the time to remove your infrastructure. I f they wish to harass you, they now have another way to do so. If you wish to move to another WH, you too will have these same advantages and disadvantages to weigh. Also, of course you can place a zero % tax on your CO... but most corps would consider at least a 5% tax on import/export. Especially when you consider that if your corp members were doing PI on an already less lucurative high sec planet they would be paying 10% now. In fact, under the current system they are already paying 5% with none of that going to benefit the corp.
Tying the BPs to Concord LP... also stupid. Dude... we're in wormholes. Concord doesn't give us LP. No incursions into wormholes. Can they be built at a pos? Can they be done so cheaply? Or will we be stuck spending billions for enough of these to cover our planets just so we can make enough fuel to keep going? Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
gargars
Cohesion Inc Beyond-Repair
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:31:00 -
[436] - Quote
Dirk Decibel wrote:CCP Omen wrote:[quote=gargars][quote=CCP Omen][quote=Rhavas]
We are ready to go when we have sifted through your feedback and made any necessary changes. For once we are not pressed for time, this is a good thing. The CSM were notified 2011.08.19 11:22:00, the design was shown to them and we made several tweaks as a result. If you want to see things UBER early the CSM is the place to be!
Regards Omen
I have asked our lovely community reps , and I can say this much about the release of this feature: between US Thanksgiving and Christmas
The CSM APPROVED of this?!?! :D
That's something I noticed right off. No comments on this from the CSM. I mean the last several blogs and announcements were manipulated in the forum so the first responses were from CSM members (and CCP Devs) in a pretty obvious attempt to tell us how we are supposed to think. Nice to see they have dropped that heavy-handed and insulting style, but seeing no CSM comments all of a sudden .... just something I noticed....
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Bliswonowon
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:34:00 -
[437] - Quote
Most nullsec alliances would not allow neutrals to run PI in their space, and certainly not for the microscopic amount of money they'd receive from PCO taxes. It's not even worth it for alliances that generally accept renters. Making the taxes much higher isn't an option either, because then (compounded with the costs involved in any nullsec logistics) highsec PI suddenly becomes more profitable. Isn't this completely obvious, or am I misunderstanding something here?
The proposed system doesn't create incentive to fight over planets either (except as random griefing and trolling by the likes of, well, us). If you want to make PI interesting, create an incentive to contest PCOs. Make some planets much higher quality than others, so that people might actually want to fight over them (and especially systems with multiple such planets) the same way we currently fight over moons. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:39:00 -
[438] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Interesting. This will surely turn into something making ammo producers happy AND Provi space holders!
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Lucas Kell
Lost Enterprises... SOLAR WING
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:40:00 -
[439] - Quote
I love how the biggest argument for this is that some magic ninja will come along setting up PCOs everywhere with a 9% tax, while everything else is getting ignored. I doubt most alliances will allow neuts to use their PCOs and any that do you can be damn sure tax will be a lot higher than 9%. And the argument "market prices" doesnt really work. The alliances WANT to control the market pries. If they are producing the PI at 0% tax while everyone else is paying 50% tax, they control the region market.
You are taking away a system that works well enough from every casual player and smal alliance that ventures out of highsec. There is NO way this is going to work out well for anyone except big alliances, and even they will have a small problem. What happens when during the night, a group pops into your systems and reinforces ALL of your PCOs. they will now all pop out of reinforced mode at the same time, and theres no way you could coordinate a defence for all of them in < 24 hours. If their defense isnt massively high, and you dont allow turrets with them, it will happen.
[edit] Also please note that the less people an alliance has do PI on its planet, the slower the drain of the resources on the plane is, so why would an alliance allow anyone but their own? [/edit] |
Mallikanth
Awakened Brotherhood The Brotherhood Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:41:00 -
[440] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc.
Hmmm magically teleported goods to a nearby Outpost or office in a low sec NPC station?
I'd prefer to see a proportion of whats in there ejected in cans. More "realism", more profit, more reason to protect, empty regularly and of course attack.
Believe in what they do, not what they say.
|
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:43:00 -
[441] - Quote
Mallikanth wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc. Hmmm magically teleported goods to a nearby Outpost or office in a low sec NPC station? I'd prefer to see a proportion of whats in there ejected in cans. More "realism", more profit, more reason to protect, empty regularly and of course attack.
That refers to the current existing CO (owned by NPCs), not the later player built ones. So, come deployment day, all those get deleted and their contents relocated. |
DuKackBoon
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:44:00 -
[442] - Quote
[Sheridan voice]YES!!![/Sheridan voice] |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
46
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:44:00 -
[443] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES!
1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running.
2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own.
The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes!
C'mon CCP... THINK on this! CCP Omen - I may not be on the CSM, but could you take a moment to consider this? It really makes no sense to include wormholes in this change at all. I'm not going to tax myself or my corp, so there's no one to tax there. I have up to ten planets being worked, so I need to halt fuel production and come up with ten of these things that we won't use anyhow? This is a really really bad change with regards to J-space. Please take a moment to consider that. Valid point, but there is more to it than that. The new CO system can and will have an impact of corps that wish to take your wormhole, not to mention static wormholes that have fairly regular visitors. If someone wishes to take over your WH, they have to consider that if they wish to fully utilize it they will need to spend the time to remove your infrastructure. I f they wish to harass you, they now have another way to do so. If you wish to move to another WH, you too will have these same advantages and disadvantages to weigh. Also, of course you can place a zero % tax on your CO... but most corps would consider at least a 5% tax on import/export. Especially when you consider that if your corp members were doing PI on an already less lucurative high sec planet they would be paying 10% now. In fact, under the current system they are already paying 5% with none of that going to benefit the corp. Tying the BPs to Concord LP... also stupid. Dude... we're in wormholes. Concord doesn't give us LP. No incursions into wormholes. Can they be built at a pos? Can they be done so cheaply? Or will we be stuck spending billions for enough of these to cover our planets just so we can make enough fuel to keep going?
Then buy them off of the market like most people will do 5 minutes after the become available in the LP stores, build them in any station with a factory slot, haul and drop it into place.
There are already lists of components out there tor construction. If you do the math you won't be spending "billions" to cover your 10 planets.
From that point on you can produce 100% tax free goods, while everyone in high sec (or using someone elses CO in low sec as will be extremely common) will be losing 10% off the top.
Well worth the investment on 10 planets... even more worthwhile if you run more. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:46:00 -
[444] - Quote
Esker Sheep wrote:pussnheels wrote: But why low sec aswell , it is empire controlled right , sure there is no concord but it is empire controlled Alot of us already taking a risk , granted a low risk doing pi in low sec so why make it harder and more cumbersome for us
honestly i don't see any pro in this except if you are a large nullsec alliance
You can moon mine in low sec right? Why not operate customs offices. Stations in low sec systems are run by different corps. Why can't the customs offices. There is logic behind this.
The difference is you need a certain minimum standings with the empire faction to anchor a POS. |
Zey Nadar
Aliastra Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:47:00 -
[445] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
Absolutely NO tie-up to sovereignty whatsoever. Make it like poses, put them up where you will, nothing to do with sov.
You can introduce discounts to costs for sov-holders or whatever, but please please please do not restrict building of the offices. We have enough unused empty sovereignty space already. |
Trainwreck McGee
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:47:00 -
[446] - Quote
It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.
Regards Omen
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you got to be ******* kidding me. Can we get a new head of PI dept? CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool |
Damien Ganvi
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:47:00 -
[447] - Quote
Liu Ellens wrote:I was hoping to read about one feature: Make these custom offices be available for courier-contracts! But was highly disappointed...
..snip..
I love the suggestion for courier contracts directly to Customs Offices... great suggestion! |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:47:00 -
[448] - Quote
Great, so now someone who runs PI in a quiet low sec system on a small scale basis is screwed. Now they have to put up PI structures within said quiet low sec system, with a "blow me up" sign on them.
Small scale low end PI in low sec is now dead for small corps. Once again, CCP has developed something for the huge alliances, and screwed the little guy.
It is one thing to dodge the gankers in low sec to do PI, it quite another to fight alliances.
All hail the megacorps and mega alliances. |
Victor Akulla
Kraken Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:49:00 -
[449] - Quote
This is kind of a waist of time. Most people who do PI farm mulitple planets and run Ninja-PI so they will have to switch to Can Launches cuz no way Im going to pay someone else for my hard work. The the other thing is just one CO will be so cost prohibitive that it will not be worth the effort. Plus 99% of the time with respect to low sec there is only one player sucking stuff of the planet ( I have yet to see another person on one of the planets I farm), so it would take years to recoup the investment of the CO. Plus after about 4 months the planet will become sucked dry and you will be left with a useless Customs office.
In the average system there are 6 to 10 planets, so what will happen to the planets without CO, only Can launches will be available?
Who ever came up with this idea must not know anything about running a real PI operation in Low Sec. High sec is a non issue and well in null there is no point since the Guild will probably own the area and why charge themselves for PI transfers. All you really are doing is adding to the already bored gate campers agenda by giving them more things to shoot at, please don't do this its such a waist of resources use the programming time to fix stuff that is broken.
Very Respectfully
VA
|
Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:50:00 -
[450] - Quote
Oh great. Another nerf to the already completely pointless place that is lowsec!
|
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Zey Nadar
Aliastra Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:51:00 -
[451] - Quote
I havent decided yet whether this is good or bad. The fact that its still restricted to officers of a player corp instead of individuals was a massive letdown already.
Why not take this opportunity and refine the corp roles at the same time, introduce more of them or better UI etc. Corp roles is still one of the big things that need fixing. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
46
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:52:00 -
[452] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I love how the biggest argument for this is that some magic ninja will come along setting up PCOs everywhere with a 9% tax, while everything else is getting ignored. I doubt most alliances will allow neuts to use their PCOs and any that do you can be damn sure tax will be a lot higher than 9%. And the argument "market prices" doesnt really work. The alliances WANT to control the market pries. If they are producing the PI at 0% tax while everyone else is paying 50% tax, they control the region market.
You are taking away a system that works well enough from every casual player and smal alliance that ventures out of highsec. There is NO way this is going to work out well for anyone except big alliances, and even they will have a small problem. What happens when during the night, a group pops into your systems and reinforces ALL of your PCOs. they will now all pop out of reinforced mode at the same time, and theres no way you could coordinate a defence for all of them in < 24 hours. If their defense isnt massively high, and you dont allow turrets with them, it will happen.
[edit] Also please note that the less people an alliance has do PI on its planet, the slower the drain of the resources on the plane is, so why would an alliance allow anyone but their own? [/edit]
1: If you can't keep a group from reinforcing all of your PCO's you are screwed anyway, unless they are simply passing through on a roam. If they are roaming, just rep them back up.
2: If they do destroy all of your PCO's use the launchpads in the mean time and consider yourself properly harrassed EVE style.
3: Not being able to/wanting to use the PCO at a planet does NOT mean you cannot do PI on that planet.
4: With something the size of a planet I can see corp/alliance making it difficult to do ninja PI, but not impossible. Since launchpads are available, this is EXACTLY the way it would be (if SOV would not make it impossible for you to try). To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance United Outworlders
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:53:00 -
[453] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: We are ready to go when we have sifted through your feedback and made any necessary changes. For once we are not pressed for time, this is a good thing. The CSM were notified 2011.08.19 11:22:00, the design was shown to them and we made several tweaks as a result. If you want to see things UBER early the CSM is the place to be!
Regards Omen
I have asked our lovely community reps , and I can say this much about the release of this feature: between US Thanksgiving and Christmas
There are a few obvious things you guys need to do before releasing this change: 1. Make sure enough BPC for the CO's are available when the current CO's disappear. There are thousands and thousands of planets in use and replacing all those CO's WON'T happen quickly. Alternatively, leave the current CO's in place for 3-6 months or until someone replaces it by anchoring a player owned one. Another idea is to issue 1 free BPC to each corp or each player or each alliance (which ever gives the optimal #). 2. PI prices are going to go through the roof (probably already have). Have you thought through what this means to the market, PoS fuels prices, 0.0 alliance finances, etc.? I bet you don't even have a vague clue and you REALLY should or at least be prepared to do something if it all goes pear shaped (see Market Discussions thread for clues). 3. You've created yet another asset that only giant blobs can reliably defend. Is this really what you want? Perhaps you should weight the HP such that disabling it isn't too hard, but destroying it is hard, COSTLY, and only worth it for strategic reasons. 4. You've created yet another item that will be spammed all across space and doesn't require any kind of maintenance. Do we really need more space trash? I think unused facilities should be easily trashed by a small gang or taken over instead of destroyed.
|
Khalia Nestune
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:56:00 -
[454] - Quote
What are the shield/armor/structure resistances on these things? Couldn't find it.
http://www.mylootyourtears.com |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:57:00 -
[455] - Quote
Hmm that will effectily be a big nerf to lowsec, since it would be impossible to defend a POS farm, especially 23/7. The cost for some PCO will probably eat up the profit of weeks and if one of them gets blown up it is probably more profitable to mine Veldspar in a newbie-ship.
No I am not crying, but I predict a very sharp price increase in POS fuels will be the result, the ones who will cry will not be the masochists who do PI, but the POS owners who needs the materials. |
Bendenn
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 18:59:00 -
[456] - Quote
Can we please just have the ability to set these up as an individual player? I don't want to setup a one man corp just to anchor a customs office. PI was introduced as something that everyone could take part in, casual to mega corp. This change kind of breaks that. And please don't give me the "just hang out in high sec" routine. |
Mavric
Viscosity Controlled Chaos
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:00:00 -
[457] - Quote
This is just complete and utter crap. PI already sux. It sucks to set up, it sucks to maintain. Now we want to add yet another structure to shoot at too.. On top of that its going to be a race to get to the plasma planets first.
Whoopee.. I am so excited..
Is the lag fixed yet?
How about walking in stations? (Also useless)
Can my dread out DPS a BS yet?
Are Supers still the win button?
Yea lets screw with PI first.. good plan.. |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:00:00 -
[458] - Quote
So some concerns, later on.
First: cost. I'm hearing a probable cost of something like 80 million ISK to set up a customs office, assuming some market manipulation of the component costs and the LP/ISK conversion. Now I don't know about you, but it takes me a well designed setup in losec to come close to 80 million ISK in a month - and that doesn't include the costs for getting the intermediary materials created (Buy P1/P2 and process). The cost - profit ratio for something like Oxygen or Coolant is far too low for this to be a manageable methodology for production. Unless you change the depletion cycles in addition to the outputs, it's going to be very hard to cost-justify setting up a customs office where you need to export P1 or P2 products, and they are the largest, benefiting most from the command center capacity.
Second, lack of cost. Ok, yeah it's not cost effective to set them up on some planets, but it creates a great option to bottleneck production of some components and make Technetium 2.0.
(from a corpmate)
Quote:So some alliance with a lot of capital force projection and liquid ISK goes and takes over every plasma planet in losec. What do you do about it if they charge exorbitant taxes but allow all to use them? Suck it up and pay more isk into their coffers. This won't help industrial corps move into losec...
His example was Goonswarm or Pandemic Legion. Two alliances with a lot of liquid isk and firepower. It would be really easy for them to monopolize a rare planet market, especially since there is no ongoing cost associated with potential incoming profits.
These things need a monthly associated cost |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:04:00 -
[459] - Quote
LOL, here's your terribad 0.0 sov mechanic:
PI Output-----> POS Output -----> Stations, cyno-jammers, etc...
PI to produce input to POS manufacturing. Use the current proposed mechanic for attacking PI. (small gang stuff, marauding, etc...). Make sure that it is expensive (in terms of time spent) but doable for PI outputs to imported via JF, but that it's really inexpensive to use a regular freighter in system to supply POSes with their inputs. This would likely be controlled by the volume of the outputs - like how cap boosters are implemented in game.
POSes produce output that keep the stations operational. They are attacked as usual. Again, whatever these outputs are, make it much more efficient to move them to a station via local freighters than by jump freighter (volume of cargo for example).
Station services and defenses are tied into the outputs of the POSes. Develop some method of putting stations into reinforce that requires super capital blobs to change ownership if they are fully supplied, and something that required a large BS fleet to take down if they are not fully supplied.
Sovereignty of a given system is determined by whoever owns the station closest to that system. # of jumps away from station is equal to Sovereignty level. A "tie" equals no sovereignty.
|
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
46
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:06:00 -
[460] - Quote
Just to reinforce two ideas that got buried somewhere in the last 10 pages:
- Leave existing COs in place. If someone wants to claim a planet, make then blow up the CO and then launch one of their own. This at least allows the option of low sec PI to continue in the short term -- which is a good thing.
- Allow anyone to use a CO, if only at a default 100% tax rate. This keeps ninja PI working and forces the choice between paying more for lots of volume or paying less for a rocket with very poor volume. Options = good.
|
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Viqer Fell
Sicarius. Legion of The Damned.
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:08:00 -
[461] - Quote
The issue of the broken war mechanics will impact on the realistic ability to destroy the low sec based CO's should people even desire to |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:10:00 -
[462] - Quote
Despite some of the implementation details that don't seem such a good idea at this time, I do applaud the spirit of the change. Conflict is good, taking power from NPCs and giving it to players is good.
Just don't create a resource (POCOs) that can be controlled but just the big boys/alliances/corps. Don't forget about the little guy. There should be a way for them to compete with the big guys. |
Jade Nexia
CHON THE R0NIN
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:10:00 -
[463] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
Dear Omen,
Do you play EVE game at all? If yes did you ever get PI production setup in w-space? I guess No. WH space is dangerous and no one would like you to be in same w-space, that's it. It same as for 0.0 sov owners. They will not allow public access to PI at all. All alliances have NBSI policy.
Well player owned CO idea is bad idea from scratch. It serve same purpose as SOV, just make strong stronger and weak even weaker. PI production is not that profitable at all to justify added cost per office. Does we need another BLOB warfare?
BTW: Even planets in w-space have slow regen. I do make planet dry after month of intensive PI production. 8 alts make any w-space planets dry after 4 weeks and I need move to another w-space. All players on same planet share resources of that planet so it mean owner of CO will refuse access for anyone else to planet just because it is necessary.
If you want kill ninja-PI, gratulation this change will made it.
You make new PI feature, but tedious PI stay up,. There is no auto product routing, I must click install, route product for hours. Placing PI extractor heads being eye tearing process thanks to high bringt coloured background on ice and lava planets. Not to mention that circle around extractor is so transparent and is impossible to see cicle borders in many times.
Nothing of this being fixed but you start thinking about stupid player owned COs.
Thank you, I wish developers would rething priorities.
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The Offerer
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:10:00 -
[464] - Quote
I'll try to give a constructive flame-free negative feedback on this.
Again, instead of giving players the initiative to revive EVE's industry, the proposal goes to even more monopoly given to the corporations. That is not good. In fact, that is very bad. Until now, you could use PI in NPC 0.0 space even if you are not a member of a multiple region owning blobfest of an alliance, since you might already know that you can not place a command center on a planet in a system that is not owned by your alliance. Even lowsec was a viable solution for providing POS fuel and T2 manufacturing materials on a small to medium scale. Now, all that is gone, because as you might already know, there are alliances that are based in NPC nullsec and pirate alliances in lowsec that are just too powerful for the majority of small to medium sized corporations, not to mention an individual player.
Take, for example, something like Pandemic Legion and the current state of Amamake - the most active entrance to the Minmatar Factional Warfare zone and spread that bored blob (I mean Nyxes on gates and titans in belts bored) to a wider lowsec area monopolizing the PI production in the region. I can assure you - that will not populate lowsec and that will not make smaller entities happy.
--- To the always present "This is a good ISK sink" posters: Sorry, to be the one to tell you this, but an ISK sink is the ISK that is removed from the global EVE economy - not the ISK that changes hands between individual players and corporations. ---
Some final words: this NOT a good change, but I'm very glad that you have posted a public discussion about it way before the deployment. If you want more inter-player interaction to expand the sandbox and give players the possibility to prosper even if they are not members of large alliances, you'll have to find a way to give freedom to the players and limit corporate monopoly over every single industrial activity in the game. (like mentioned, inter-command center transfers between players and ways to collaborate on the planet on player-to-player level).
Btw. do you think that Gallente ice prices are scary just because of a couple of days of suicide gankings? Deploy this change to PI as a permanent feature and see what happens to the economy.
Definitely not supported. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
65
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:11:00 -
[465] - Quote
CCP Omen,
Perhaps CCP could have a transition period, for 2 weeks the NPC CO's stay up, while we get to deploy ours.
Just a thought, AG |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:12:00 -
[466] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Hmm that will effectily be a big nerf to lowsec, since it would be impossible to defend a POS farm, especially 23/7. The cost for some PCO will probably eat up the profit of weeks and if one of them gets blown up it is probably more profitable to mine Veldspar in a newbie-ship.
No I am not crying, but I predict a very sharp price increase in POS fuels will be the result, the ones who will cry will not be the masochists who do PI, but the POS owners who needs the materials.
As of 45 minutes ago, coolant was up 75% over yesterday's price, mech parts and robotics up 60%, All are climbing rapidly on speculation, but this will put some small scale POS owners out of business.
I am betting a 300-400% increase in PI POS fuel prices 2 months after this goes live.
Alot of small scale high sec manufacturers will be out of business soon after. Goons got what they wanted, the eradication of high sec T2 manufacture by small scale corps. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:13:00 -
[467] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Great, so now someone who runs PI in a quiet low sec system on a small scale basis is screwed. Now they have to put up PI structures within said quiet low sec system, with a "blow me up" sign on them.
Small scale low end PI in low sec is now dead for small corps. Once again, CCP has developed something for the huge alliances, and screwed the little guy.
Yeah, those POCOs really need to be able to have defenses anchored - just like a POS tower. Give us multiple sizes so that we can trade-off HP vs PG vs CPU vs cost, let us anchor batteries and hardeners to make them tougher to take down. Give us a micro-version used for places where the chance of getting ganked is nearly nill.
(Making them a special version of a POS tower is probably going to look better then trying the "big floating object that you can shoot without it shooting back" method.) |
Les Conrads
JoghLes
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:13:00 -
[468] - Quote
Ok. I own 2 accounts which are fully stacked with PI personnel. I am in a tiny alliance with some friends - we are having a good time, doing this and that, PI and trading, sites and mining. I recently dipped a toe into into low sec, because I liked the higher reward that comes with the risk of getting ganked at the gates, getting found at the offices etcetc. I lost 1 sigil full of crap because there was an insta-lock gate camp which I couldn't even clear with cloak and an afterburner - but that's ok. I made more than enough money from these planets. I was about to think about getting into WHs and set some stuff up there aswell.
Doesn't look like I'm going to leave High Sec now, does it?
Nobody ever will put up customs offices for the general public. They are so ******* expensive and can be blown up "easily". The tax-revenue from a planet is also very low, as you can't allow too many people to settle on it anyways - else the planet will just be sucked dry.
I wouldn't mind, if this crap would only happen in null and wh space, as this is basically the wild west (which I'd never enter). But lowsec is still empire. And the empire should control those offices.
To sum it up: this change will put every tiny step I made from being a TOTAL carebear to waste and leave me no other option but to stay in high. Really, really sadface about that :( |
Liandra Xi
The New Era C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:14:00 -
[469] - Quote
Trainwreck McGee wrote:It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.
Regards Omen
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you got to be ******* kidding me. Can we get a new head of PI dept?
Hell no, some us love the one we currently have. At least he is actively reading the thread and replying, to all those asking why you weren't consulted, what do you think this thread is for? Duh lol. |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:16:00 -
[470] - Quote
Right.......where to start!
I currently run a small alt corp that does PI in Sydicate space, the system i do this in has a station with medical so is rather busy.
There is one large Alliance that uses this system as their base, the system always has their members present.
I have 3 characters running PI in this system, all transportation has to be done covertly and a Jumpfreighter is needed to get the goods to market.
So....... the odds of me being the person who has control of the customs office is zero, if i launch it will be destroyed by the resident Alliance ( they are like that! )
They can set the standings to allow only their alliance access or put taxes so high it is unprofitable so deniying me the oppertunity to do PI........( remember this is syndicate NPC space )
I read a blog a little while ago saying that CCP were going to make it easier for small corps or solo players to get a foothold in 0.0.........how is this PI change doing that?
I already have made a substantial investment in skills, time and isk and risk enough already i think!
I also note that all the ppl saying this is good are also the ones asking about how much HP the CO will have, i'm sure there must be a link there :P
Basicaly you have just anexed my sorce of income and given the keys to the biggest Alliance around......thanks for f**k all! |
|
Cassius Longinus
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:17:00 -
[471] - Quote
Giving them the HP of a small POS means they are generally outside the realm of smallgang/subcap gameplay.
Change the shield/armor/structure HPs around and I could use this to generate timers to get non-pos-fights.
As it is, it's just more crap I'm going to ignore since I don't put SC's on the field.
But this does seem like a nobrainer for bored SC pilots. Maybe they need more to do. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
169
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:18:00 -
[472] - Quote
They certainly need to be a lot more accessible to people that don't farm Concord or FW LP. They also need to be able to be built at a pos. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:18:00 -
[473] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:Right.......where to start!
I currently run a small alt corp that does PI in Sydicate space, the system i do this in has a station with medical so is rather busy.
There is one large Alliance that uses this system as their base, the system always has their members present.
I have 3 characters running PI in this system, all transportation has to be done covertly and a Jumpfreighter is needed to get the goods to market.
So....... the odds of me being the person who has control of the customs office is zero, if i launch it will be destroyed by the resident Alliance ( they are like that! )
They can set the standings to allow only their alliance access or put taxes so high it is unprofitable so deniying me the oppertunity to do PI........( remember this is syndicate NPC space )
I read a blog a little while ago saying that CCP were going to make it easier for small corps or solo players to get a foothold in 0.0.........how is this PI change doing that?
I already have made a substantial investment in skills, time and isk and risk enough already i think!
I also note that all the ppl saying this is good are also the ones asking about how much HP the CO will have, i'm sure there must be a link there :P
Basicaly you have just anexed my sorce of income and given the keys to the biggest Alliance around......thanks for f**k all!
I'd like to see more of the small PI producers in this thread like this guy.
|
Phoenix IV
The 8th Order
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:19:00 -
[474] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Great, so now someone who runs PI in a quiet low sec system on a small scale basis is screwed. Now they have to put up PI structures within said quiet low sec system, with a "blow me up" sign on them.
Small scale low end PI in low sec is now dead for small corps. Once again, CCP has developed something for the huge alliances, and screwed the little guy.
It is one thing to dodge the gankers in low sec to do PI, it quite another to fight alliances.
All hail the megacorps and mega alliances.
Please show me ONE "huge alliance" which lives in low-sec.
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Oh great. Another nerf to the already completely pointless place that is lowsec!
No, exactly the opposite. Finally a good reason to live in low-sec.
The COs can be killed by a small fleet, that's why most of them will be controlled by the local residents (be it pirates, fw corps, small corps/alliances).
It can be the best change for low-sec ever.
|
Mavric
Viscosity Controlled Chaos
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:22:00 -
[475] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:CCP Omen,
Perhaps CCP could have a transition period, for 2 weeks the NPC CO's stay up, while we get to deploy ours.
Just a thought, AG
Screw it. Just leave them alone all together. While we are at it move the POS fuels back to the NPC market.
This is just a bad idea on multiple levels. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:24:00 -
[476] - Quote
Phoenix IV wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Great, so now someone who runs PI in a quiet low sec system on a small scale basis is screwed. Now they have to put up PI structures within said quiet low sec system, with a "blow me up" sign on them.
Small scale low end PI in low sec is now dead for small corps. Once again, CCP has developed something for the huge alliances, and screwed the little guy.
It is one thing to dodge the gankers in low sec to do PI, it quite another to fight alliances.
All hail the megacorps and mega alliances. Please show me ONE "huge alliance" which lives in low-sec. Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Oh great. Another nerf to the already completely pointless place that is lowsec!
No, exactly the opposite. Finally a good reason to live in low-sec. The COs can be killed by a small fleet, that's why most of them will be controlled by the local residents (be it pirates, fw corps, small corps/alliances). It can be the best change for low-sec ever.
I respectfully disagree. I've lived in quite a few different areas of lowsec. The positives that you're talking about are the exception, not the rule. Many areas of low-sec are either abandoned or owned by people that would rather not be generous with any shared resources.
Too many people have this idea that low sec is the stepping stone to null sec, where alliances are formed and broken like in null. They think you can really get a foothold in low-sec if someone doesn't want you there. This is the wishful thinking of someone that has yet to experience all that low-sec has to offer. |
Jean Starwinds
Starwinds and Hawking
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:25:00 -
[477] - Quote
I see this as a mixed as it will effect my low sec. With PI the danger was allready there with running gate camps. The ability for the group of gankers to watch the logs, and set up/move a camp will incress prices of anything that need PI. The Customs office defences will be needed as it will be killable. If it has defences in low sec, will the custom office work like POS. In that case access becomes an issue. Will I lose my ability to use the lowsec PI? |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
103
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:25:00 -
[478] - Quote
Mavric wrote:Apollo Gabriel wrote:CCP Omen,
Perhaps CCP could have a transition period, for 2 weeks the NPC CO's stay up, while we get to deploy ours.
Just a thought, AG Screw it. Just leave them alone all together. While we are at it move the POS fuels back to the NPC market. This is just a bad idea on multiple levels.
pos fuel on npc markets, best idea yet, pi is ******* bad. i loved my npc sell orders, bring them back CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Andy Landen
Cryptonym Sleepers Moon Warriors
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:26:00 -
[479] - Quote
I certainly won't do PI now. Why risk someone putting my tax to 100% or limiting my exports and denying me the ability to do imports. Seriously. Now I need to call on my alliance to handle attacks on my PI, which isn't very profitable anyway. No way. |
Apathetic Brent
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:27:00 -
[480] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:Right.......where to start!
I currently run a small alt corp that does PI in Sydicate space, the system i do this in has a station with medical so is rather busy.
There is one large Alliance that uses this system as their base, the system always has their members present.
I have 3 characters running PI in this system, all transportation has to be done covertly and a Jumpfreighter is needed to get the goods to market.
So....... the odds of me being the person who has control of the customs office is zero, if i launch it will be destroyed by the resident Alliance ( they are like that! )
They can set the standings to allow only their alliance access or put taxes so high it is unprofitable so deniying me the oppertunity to do PI........( remember this is syndicate NPC space )
I read a blog a little while ago saying that CCP were going to make it easier for small corps or solo players to get a foothold in 0.0.........how is this PI change doing that?
I already have made a substantial investment in skills, time and isk and risk enough already i think!
I also note that all the ppl saying this is good are also the ones asking about how much HP the CO will have, i'm sure there must be a link there :P
Basicaly you have just anexed my sorce of income and given the keys to the biggest Alliance around......thanks for f**k all!
You mad, Bro? We moved in just to grief your PI efforts. |
|
Nyrak
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:29:00 -
[481] - Quote
In the long run, I have this feeling my little out of the way set-up in high sec space is going to get crowded. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:29:00 -
[482] - Quote
I think this may be the worst idea from CCP in a long while! And worse ever is that they seem to have been wasting resources on this secretly that should have been put on all the other things they have already promised and never delivered.
Why is this a bad idea? It makes low sec even less accessable to the "little guy"! Instead of making those "care bears" that everyone wants to tempt to go into spaces with greater risk it eliminates on element in Eve that was making them temp fate, dip their toe into some risk. PI. Now PI will be yet another thing too risky as compared to the reward in low sec, just like mining has become. No one mines in low sec because it isn't worth the risk and now no one will PI in low sec for the same reason.
If you have an alliance with the "chops" to get what you need to build one of these structures and defend it you aren't wasting your time in low sec, you are out being awesome for much bigger rewards in null sec. But if you are a big alliance with a bunch of caps you no longer fight with because of recent nerfs and love to grief (sound like anyone?) you will start "Custogedeon" and make popping these things your new hobby.
I think this could make sense as part of a null sec revamp, the idea that you could also control the planets in the area you control makes total sense, but this is just yet another bad idea for low sec, CCP stop the hating on low sec!!
CCP, I no longer have confidence you are capable of creating a future for your game. I was till now, but I see you really don't get it. Please, everyone in CCP that likes this idea form an orderly line and jump into the nearest active volcano.
Issler |
Alua Oresson
The Dominion of Light BLACK-MARK
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:30:00 -
[483] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:I certainly won't do PI now. Why risk someone putting my tax to 100% or limiting my exports and denying me the ability to do imports. Seriously. Now I need to call on my alliance to handle attacks on my PI, which isn't very profitable anyway. No way.
Oh, I'd say that PI materials will get to be VERY profitable after this change. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:33:00 -
[484] - Quote
Alua Oresson wrote:Andy Landen wrote:I certainly won't do PI now. Why risk someone putting my tax to 100% or limiting my exports and denying me the ability to do imports. Seriously. Now I need to call on my alliance to handle attacks on my PI, which isn't very profitable anyway. No way. Oh, I'd say that PI materials will get to be VERY profitable after this change.
This is assuming that you'll be able to produce. The main complain in this thread isn't the profitability. We're concerned about a large porition of people responsible for market supply not being able to supply anymore and the problems related to that. |
Saira Jin
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:34:00 -
[485] - Quote
Don't know if someone has brought this up yet, but if you run the numbers from the past, you will notice that the average player paid 150,000 to 200,000 isk per MONTH per planet as export taxes in 0.0.
At that rate, a corp will need 300 months if there is just the one colony on the planet to recoup a 50 million isk investment for a customs office! Okay, so there are 10 colonies on a planet, it will still take 30 months!! This is assuming that the tax rate is set at 5% to keep it the same as it is now.
Agreed, some "factory planets" will re-pay themselves sooner, but on average, based on the experience from 2-3 characters, that 150-200K per month is the best figure I could arrive at - someone correct me if I am wrong.
That is a whole lot of months to recoup investment, assuming no one destroys your Customs Office before the 30-odd months are up!
I would suggest that CCP re-price the Customs Office, or re-do how taxation works, else it will make bad financial sense for 0.0 or wh corps to drop customs offices for all the planets in their space, or even some. |
Vorpaladin
Diplomacy Has Failed
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:34:00 -
[486] - Quote
I am very much against this change. I have spent a lot of time learning how to do PI well and am quite happy producing tier 4 products in WH space. I run into plenty of random griefing when running sites, which is fine; me and my mates are happy to turn around and bait those folks into oblivion. It's nice to have an activity (PI) that involves less vulnerability for days when I'm just not in the mood, or when I'm on travel and have to use a crappy laptop that I would never use for going into combat.
PI in WH space is already risky. Stealth bombers love to sit at COs for the succulent flavor of a juicy hauler. Now you want to make it so in order to do PI my CORP has to buy AND defend about 10 POCOs. No way in hell I'm bothering with PI anymore unless the value of tier 4 commodities goes up 100X.
And if PI products (including POS fuel) go up even 10X there will be a collapse in the use of POSes. Which will have BAD ripple effects throughout the market.
PI can certainly be improved, but the POCO approach is not an improvement. This is the Qwikster of PI. Just say no!
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:35:00 -
[487] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote: First: cost. I'm hearing a probable cost of something like 80 million ISK to set up a customs office, assuming some market manipulation of the component costs and the LP/ISK conversion. Now I don't know about you, but it takes me a well designed setup in losec to come close to 80 million ISK in a month - and that doesn't include the costs for getting the intermediary materials created (Buy P1/P2 and process). The cost - profit ratio for something like Oxygen or Coolant is far too low for this to be a manageable methodology for production. Unless you change the depletion cycles in addition to the outputs, it's going to be very hard to cost-justify setting up a customs office where you need to export P1 or P2 products, and they are the largest, benefiting most from the command center capacity.
You are looking at it wrong. The profit of the CO won't come from the profit you make from your PI. It'll be from the tax everyone else pays to export. Even if you set it up for your own use, you will get that tax unless you close access to neutrals.
In lowsec, I'm fairly sure the local pirate corps will be setting up these at semi-reasonable tax rates. Passive income with no maintenance and a chance to create fights? Why wouldn't you do it? |
Phoenix IV
The 8th Order
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:35:00 -
[488] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote: I respectfully disagree. I've lived in quite a few different areas of lowsec. The positives that you're talking about are the exception, not the rule. Many areas of low-sec are either abandoned or owned by people that would rather not be generous with any shared resources.
Too many people have this idea that low sec is the stepping stone to null sec, where alliances are formed and broken like in null. They think you can really get a foothold in low-sec if someone doesn't want you there. This is the wishful thinking of someone that has yet to experience all that low-sec has to offer.
I live in low-sec for more than 3 years, doing fw, piracy and industry. |
Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations Fatal Ascension
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:38:00 -
[489] - Quote
Can I have all of my PI skills re-imburssed?
CCP you are trusting a premise that people in game will be kind hearted and that they will not tax a person so greatly as to have to leave the planet.
Apparently these is no greed in the game? You dont think that anyone not associated with your corp or alliance will not be charged a 100% tax on what you are trying to move off planet?
The purpose to have a poco will be control. No one in 0.0 or low will allow a neutral to do PI on a planet they will have control over. Isnt going to happen.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:38:00 -
[490] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Brunaburh wrote: First: cost. I'm hearing a probable cost of something like 80 million ISK to set up a customs office, assuming some market manipulation of the component costs and the LP/ISK conversion. Now I don't know about you, but it takes me a well designed setup in losec to come close to 80 million ISK in a month - and that doesn't include the costs for getting the intermediary materials created (Buy P1/P2 and process). The cost - profit ratio for something like Oxygen or Coolant is far too low for this to be a manageable methodology for production. Unless you change the depletion cycles in addition to the outputs, it's going to be very hard to cost-justify setting up a customs office where you need to export P1 or P2 products, and they are the largest, benefiting most from the command center capacity.
You are looking at it wrong. The profit of the CO won't come from the profit you make from your PI. It'll be from the tax everyone else pays to export. Even if you set it up for your own use, you will get that tax unless you close access to neutrals. In lowsec, I'm fairly sure the local pirate corps will be setting up these at semi-reasonable tax rates. Passive income with no maintenance and a chance to create fights? Why wouldn't you do it?
Fights won't be created at that point - unless of course you mean ganking haulers in your faction fit recon is a fight. Being able to know when the people who do PI pick up their materials and drop off supplies is a death sentence to low-sec producers. |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:40:00 -
[491] - Quote
Phoenix IV wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote: I respectfully disagree. I've lived in quite a few different areas of lowsec. The positives that you're talking about are the exception, not the rule. Many areas of low-sec are either abandoned or owned by people that would rather not be generous with any shared resources.
Too many people have this idea that low sec is the stepping stone to null sec, where alliances are formed and broken like in null. They think you can really get a foothold in low-sec if someone doesn't want you there. This is the wishful thinking of someone that has yet to experience all that low-sec has to offer.
I live in low-sec for more than 3 years, doing fw, piracy and industry.
Okay. Can you tell me with a straight face that I'm wrong in part or in whole? |
The Offerer
Republic University Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:41:00 -
[492] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:I'd like to see more of the small PI producers in this thread like this guy. Wish granted. In fact, I've just written a guide a couple of days ago for PI production in NPC nullcsec space and posted it on my (medium sized) corp's internal forums after testing the viability of the action myself with 3 characters. I guess that path for placing a foothold in nullsec is out of the question if these changes hit TQ.
Just to mention once again - we were forced out of 0.0 space because of the anomaly nerf and all the ISK, effort and demoralized members lost during the nerf process (demoralized not because the anomalies were removed, but because everything that we have built was gone over night based on a decision made by the lead economist that don't play the game and didn't have the data about the amount of bots and their impact on the economy). Since industrial side of 0.0 space is not mentioned anywhere except in that damage control thread after "Fearless" fiasco, that leaves us with close to 0 chance of getting back in nullsec permanently without paying someone else to play the game as they (not us) want it. That is seriously not fun even for a RL business, not to mention a game that is supposed to be entertaining. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:46:00 -
[493] - Quote
Saira Jin wrote:Don't know if someone has brought this up yet, but if you run the numbers from the past, you will notice that the average player paid 150,000 to 200,000 isk per MONTH per planet as export taxes in 0.0.
At that rate, a corp will need 300 months if there is just the one colony on the planet to recoup a 50 million isk investment for a customs office! Okay, so there are 10 colonies on a planet, it will still take 30 months!! This is assuming that the tax rate is set at 5% to keep it the same as it is now.
Agreed, some "factory planets" will re-pay themselves sooner, but on average, based on the experience from 2-3 characters, that 150-200K per month is the best figure I could arrive at - someone correct me if I am wrong.
That is a whole lot of months to recoup investment, assuming no one destroys your Customs Office before the 30-odd months are up!
I would suggest that CCP re-price the Customs Office, or re-do how taxation works, else it will make bad financial sense for 0.0 or wh corps to drop customs offices for all the planets in their space, or even some.
it might be a bit less than 30 months. 20-24 ish, but there is no way its worth it. tahts a crappy return of an investment considering it can be killed in a 36h or so window. no 2nd and 3rd timer right?
the more i think about this and the more i see many many reason this is a bad idea i do hope CCP PI DUDE is taking note. forget this plan redo pi itself as this is worthless with out a workible pi system, something that isnt currently inplace.
pls go watch what pi was ment to be on utube(fanfest video 09/10 ish) and make it that. then come back to this 'plan' CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Bilaz
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:47:00 -
[494] - Quote
Let me remind you one of devblogs written not so long ago:
fom here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2351
Quote:Lessons learned 1) Shooting at stationary structures is boring See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives. Shooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior 2) Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example 3) Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool 4) Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road 5) Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think See: outposts, titans, supercarriers 6) Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it See: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort. 7) People like to do one-stop shopping, and will "go to Jita" for everything unless doing so is comparatively very inconvenient See: moon mineral distribution, high-strength booster resource distribution, neither of which achieved much in the way of the nullsec-to-nullsec trade that they hoped to encourage
now to your new customs office 1) check. Its sure stationary and we kinda expected to shoot it 2) check. it surely wont fight back 3) check. Yeah - at night someone reinforced it and you HAVE to rep it up 4) check. We dont really need it, now do we? 5) check. It cost much more than most people get from pi and taxes are going up 6) check. We have to get bpc, build one thing, haul it, then do something with it again - with no reasoning behind it
so you repeat 6 out of 7 mistakes you folks supposedly learned? Good job as always. |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:48:00 -
[495] - Quote
replied to wrong author. Deleted.... |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
114
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:49:00 -
[496] - Quote
first thank you ccp omen for allowing us to give you feed back on this idea ? it looks already massive and i do hope you find is very useful to develop this concept even further
Actually i do like the concept tho i stay with my previous opinion that this as it stands now is too easy to grief all those who go into low sec for their pi ? i thought it was ccp goal to get more people into low sec with this even lass people are likely to venture out there Second there is no way to stop a large alliance to blockade every useful planet between their space and highsec..... barren; lave ;plasma and in lesser degrees ice and storm planets....... you know pos fuels
Yes you can avoid this by launching your cargo into space . but atleast enlarge the cargospace on the command centers it can now barely hold a day production for some items and not everyone has the time to empty their production planets twice a day
uumm maybe a system of being able to lease a CO for a certain time to a certain numbers of corporations will help just a idea I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
iNFoRMaLiTY11
Lone Star Exploration Narwhals Ate My Duck
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:49:00 -
[497] - Quote
If it isnt too much, id like some questions answered.
In PI-s current form its rather clearly already divided to several character/player form of action as you cannot fit a full P4 production line into a single planet. Thus you are forced to spread the load between characters/planets/systems for high volume/profit production. For extraction the lower the security system the better the yield on planets. I.E. the gold is in the middle of maffia territory while coal is in police station.
1. Will there be new skills associated for this? A la planetary broker relation-esque? 2. Standings modifers on taxes for high security space? 3. Whats the intent of changes on progression with the new change? Id see solo -> small gang op - > big alliance. What is the motivator with these changes for a new small industrial corp moving to low/nullsec? 4. How is the small new corp going to be competitive with superalliances that can remove the small corp's PCO-s with less effort on corp level? 5. Do you think the current said out possible material cost is justifying the corporation level of passive income? As in do you find the initial cost of taxing up "your" planets comparable to standings grind for datacore farming on solo level in your view? 6. Do you feel a new passive income on corporation level is justified with moon mining already existing. 7. As a tax will be set up on corporation level what is the corporation effort in this on maintenance and upkeep? For sort of a comparison blueprint handling in poses requires pos fuel, palyers handling the blueprints and players efending the poses. There is clearly a set up + maintenance. What is the maintenance of these PCO-s? Defence only? 8. Import/export taxes clarification. High security space = 5% base price of item times 2 for high sec. Up to 5% base price with 100% PCO tax meanining 5% of items base price to import/export on planet in low/null, correct? 9. If i understood 8 incorrectly ignore next question. How is PI in high sec going to be incentive for new player to stick to the game when he has to pay double taxes in his most accessible planets + market fees + having to deal with lowest yield planets + corp tax if he is still in npc corp or taxed player run corp.
And 2 questions where i am very biased.
10. Any chance of lowering planetary construction costs for low/null security space to make it more accesible to newer player? With the reasoning of promoting a new player venture into more dangerous space with requiring less initial investment. The command center upgrade level costs are low enough for a more experienced character not to even care but setting up for example a level 3 command center can easily turn into value of cruiser (level 3 comm center + space port is almost 2 mil alone). Time that with number of planets.
11. Where the f*ck is planetary interaction voiced over tutorial for new players? When new player gets in he is told how to fit ships, fly them, how to start mining, accept missions, move around space and systems. Where the f*ck is the IN GAME planetary interaction tutorial for new players?
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:49:00 -
[498] - Quote
Bilaz wrote:Let me remind you one of devblogs written not so long ago: fom here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2351Quote:Lessons learned 1) Shooting at stationary structures is boring See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives. Shooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior 2) Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example 3) Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool 4) Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road 5) Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think See: outposts, titans, supercarriers 6) Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it See: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort. 7) People like to do one-stop shopping, and will "go to Jita" for everything unless doing so is comparatively very inconvenient See: moon mineral distribution, high-strength booster resource distribution, neither of which achieved much in the way of the nullsec-to-nullsec trade that they hoped to encourage now to your new customs office 1) check. Its sure stationary and we kinda expected to shoot it 2) check. it surely wont fight back 3) check. Yeah - at night someone reinforced it and you HAVE to rep it up 4) check. We dont really need it, now do we? 5) check. It cost much more than most people get from pi and taxes are going up 6) check. We have to get bpc, build one thing, haul it, then do something with it again - with no reasoning behind it so you repeat 6 out of 7 mistakes you folks supposedly learned? Good job as always.
agreed. 100%
/thread |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
170
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:51:00 -
[499] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: As of 45 minutes ago, coolant was up 75% over yesterday's price, mech parts and robotics up 60%, All are climbing rapidly on speculation, but this will put some small scale POS owners out of business.
I am betting a 300-400% increase in PI POS fuel prices 2 months after this goes live.
Alot of small scale high sec manufacturers will be out of business soon after. Goons got what they wanted, the eradication of high sec T2 manufacture by small scale corps.
There is so much garbage speculation flying left and right in this thread. Half of the posters believe this will cause prices to skyrocket, other half complain that PI isn't worth doing because its not profitable, and making it riskier makes it worse.
Is it that hard to understand that if prices inflate, than you will be getting more reward for your efforts? Anyone with a PI setup currently stands to gain from this, as prices will no doubt increase.
Why would tech 2 manufacturing go out of business? Sale prices for Tech 2 goods are tied to the cost of materials, so your Vagabonds and Zealots will simply cost more. Big deal.
I am continually amazed by the number of people seemingly entrenched in various aspects of the economy of this game that don't understand risk/reward, or the point of the game to begin with.
Don't like "big bad corporate power"?? I'm sorry, but its been said a hundred times. If you don't like powerful entities being powerful, you're in the wrong game. There is balancing, and than there is catering to lazy folk who don't want to cooperate with others to garnish the support they need to continue their endeavors.
Start thinking outside the box, everyone. Stop demanding that the training wheels be left on so you have an easy time continuing your day to day life as usual.
Start talking with the other people on the planets - you can see their colonies. Network. Start dialogues. Find out who's posted there, what they want taxes to be. Form cooperative agreements. Pool your resources. Find someone who will set up a CO tax-free and offer to help defend it.
SOCIALIZE. There is no problem presented by mechanics and players, that isn't solvable by deeper cooperation on your end. Whether its goons, or PI griefers - learn to adapt, or make more friends. Start playing hardball, or you'll rightfully be chewed up and spit out.
But please, for the love of Chribba, stop complaining that life is a bit more complicated. When all is said and done, EVERYTHING in the game outside of highsec will destructible and ownable, thats the trajectory EvE has always traveled down, this step is no exception.
Lastly - for those that are shocked and surprised by this announcement, its really nothing new. This is the "space elevator" that was talked about in the beginning. It was alw |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:52:00 -
[500] - Quote
To all those who think this is a good idea....
It's being implemented by the same company who brought you monocles.
I don't know what goal CCP has in mind other then doing PI more affected by other players. If CCP find's it desirable to drive people to low/null sec, this does just the opposite.
I have read every post in this thread so far. Some good points on both sides. I'm seeing a decided turn to the negative from the first posts. As people digest this, I think more will be unhappy with it.
The price for everything will go up. The cost to make t2 stuff will go up to accommodate the increased cost of PI materials. The law of supply and demand then indicates that the demand for t2 stuff will do down, and hence T1 and meta 1-4 stuff would go up to fill the void.
I suspect that many POS's manufacture stuff, mine certainly does. The manufacturing queue in NPC stations will get longer because PI materials are a major fuel component of POSs. So T1 prices will rise, but mineral prices will stay about the same.
I don't think anyone will argue that this will increase prices atleast on PI materials and those things made with them. Those PvP'ers applauding this change don't realize that there is not a corresponding increase in bounties and PvE rewards. So to finance your PvP, you will be doing more PvE to pay for your PvP.
Has anyone seen a post that says this change inspires someone to go into PI? Lots of people think that this change makes PI too much of a PITA to bother with it would seem based on the posts I have seen. I think that any change to a game, should make the game more fun, more engaging. Based on the response from those who actually do PI, this is not a positive change.
Omen said in a post that they hope that corps will form whose purpose it is to protect COs. Is this like the hundreds of corps who exist to protect SOV and POS and such? I'm just not seeing big bucks from CO's, and you can replace the whole thing for 80mil (I recall that figure from someplace). You expect a corp to be interested in paying another corp to protect a 80m structure? Or a corp to be interested in protecting a structure for less than 80m? Just let the structure be blown up, replace it after blowing up the new corps CO and move on.
Has anyone at CCP done the math to figure out the payback on a CO? If your interest is to have battle around CO's the payback has to be fast enough to make it worthwhile replacing CO's. Lots and lots of materials need to be moved to make 80 million. At even 6000 ISK per robotics, assuming 100% tax, you need to move 13,333 units of robotics to pay for the CO. Can a planet even produce that in a month? I'm thinking, it makes no economic sense to put one up. The CO is not valuable enough to spend much protecting it, and it won't generate ISK fast enough to replace often. If the tax is less than 100%, the payback is even longer.
Omen also said that "If you introduce a structure, nature sort of demands that it can be destroyed." That makes sense, but the thought is not complete. If you introduce a structure, nature sort of demands that it can be destroyed, nature sort of demands that you be able to defend it. You can't raise a fleet fast enough to defend your CO. It's more structure bashing, which nobody is loving. If you allow guns to be put on CO's, why would they not be allowed to shoot any one who can't use the CO? If you cant use a low sec POS, the guns a probably configured to shoot you. Why would a CO be different?
Taking the "I own the CO" idea further, since I own it, would I not also have access to all the storage therein? I can see it now "low tax rate on my CO!! I won't steal your materials, I promise!!!"
I have seen nothing that indicates that there will be a change to the size of launching goods into space. I don't do it, but I really think that few people will allow someone else to use their CO at whatever tax rate. So the only option is launches. I also think that the economics would be that there is little payback to owning a CO for reasons stated above. So the new PI flow will be produce as many goods as you can on a planet, launch them, haul to high sec to a manufacturing planet to combine into higher tier products.
Does CCP really understand what effects this will have? Based on Omen's comments regarding CO in WH's and whether corps/alliances in null sec would allow the general public to use their CO's, and his misconceptions about the effects on small corps, I would say CCP is clueless, as they were in the monocle fiasco.
This just screams to me that there is more and more incentive to get into large corps/alliances. It is a very negative change for small/medium corps.
I do think that that is a significant enough change that skill points in PI should be refunded. If people want to continue to do PI, they can spend those point in PI again. |
|
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:53:00 -
[501] - Quote
Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp.
Why don't you work out a deal with them?
You know, emergent content style.... If you've been in there doing it this long, they probably don't mind that much, and consider you an annoyance, particularly if you are avoiding confronting them.
Its possible this could be lucrative for you to continue doing, even if you are paying 10% to the wormhole affiliation.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
172
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 19:59:00 -
[502] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: this will put some small scale POS owners out of business.
I am betting a 300-400% increase in PI POS fuel prices 2 months after this goes live.
I got off on a rant there, but I wanted to make an important point - How in the world would this put POS owners out of business?
I own and operate a POS, and I farm planets. I simply farm fuel, and put it in my POS. My goods never touch the market, I would imagine most savvy players would do the same - as every time you sell to the market and rebuy, someone else profits off you.
So, if my PI fuel goes from a nearby planet straight to the POS, the market fluctuations are of ZERO significance. I don't care whether coolant is 1,000 isk / unit or 1 million isk / unit, my POS keeps ticking regardless.
Maintaining access to my planets will be a greater challenge, but it wont be impossible. I welcome anything that brings more fights and involves more corpmates looking to pew. I refuse to sit back and whine about the change, I'll simply bust out whatever muscle it takes to make it work.
Worst case scenario, i lose access to planets and have to buy fuel. Big deal, i'll just factor it into the price of the goods produced at the POS, like any other businessman would do. Thats how it works. Life goes on... |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:00:00 -
[503] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: As of 45 minutes ago, coolant was up 75% over yesterday's price, mech parts and robotics up 60%, All are climbing rapidly on speculation, but this will put some small scale POS owners out of business.
I am betting a 300-400% increase in PI POS fuel prices 2 months after this goes live.
Alot of small scale high sec manufacturers will be out of business soon after. Goons got what they wanted, the eradication of high sec T2 manufacture by small scale corps.
There is so much garbage speculation flying left and right in this thread. Half of the posters believe this will cause prices to skyrocket, other half complain that PI isn't worth doing because its not profitable, and making it riskier makes it worse. Is it that hard to understand that if prices inflate, than you will be getting more reward for your efforts? Anyone with a PI setup currently stands to gain from this, as prices will no doubt increase. Why would tech 2 manufacturing go out of business? Sale prices for Tech 2 goods are tied to the cost of materials, so your Vagabonds and Zealots will simply cost more. Big deal. I am continually amazed by the number of people seemingly entrenched in various aspects of the economy of this game that don't understand risk/reward, or the point of the game to begin with. Don't like "big bad corporate power"?? I'm sorry, but its been said a hundred times. If you don't like powerful entities being powerful, you're in the wrong game. There is balancing, and than there is catering to lazy folk who don't want to cooperate with others to garnish the support they need to continue their endeavors. Start thinking outside the box, everyone. Stop demanding that the training wheels be left on so you have an easy time continuing your day to day life as usual. Start talking with the other people on the planets - you can see their colonies. Network. Start dialogues. Find out who's posted there, what they want taxes to be. Form cooperative agreements. Pool your resources. Find someone who will set up a CO tax-free and offer to help defend it. SOCIALIZE. There is no problem presented by mechanics and players, that isn't solvable by deeper cooperation on your end. Whether its goons, or PI griefers - learn to adapt, or make more friends. Start playing hardball, or you'll rightfully be chewed up and spit out. But please, for the love of Chribba, stop complaining that life is a bit more complicated. When all is said and done, EVERYTHING in the game outside of highsec will destructible and ownable, thats the trajectory EvE has always traveled down, this step is no exception. Lastly - for those that are shocked and surprised by this announcement, its really nothing new. This is the "space elevator" that was talked about in the beginning. It was alw
Ordinarily, I would agree with most everything you said. The problem is the mechanics that are involved. The new mechanics will prevent low-sec suppliers from operating. This introduces a huge shock to the supply of PI goods, which again, wouldn't be a problem if a large portion of the population wasn't forced out of their style of gameplay.
This change is on the order of the introduction of the heavy interdictors. No one thought that it would effectively eliminate blockade running ships entirely, but for a few months, that style of gameplay COULD NOT exist. That had a radical effect on Eve as a whole.
Because of the scope of this change, I would introduce it very cautiously, rather than the abrupt way it's going to be done. There's a lot of stuff at stake here. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:02:00 -
[504] - Quote
CCP, you realize having taxes set on these things as a percent of some arbitrary value is kind of ridiculous, right? Since you're not tracking market value of the products, just let the CO owner set taxes as exact ISK/m3 instead of a %. I realize the end result is the same but there is something silly about a situation where the CO could be set to "100% tax" on a product whose arbitrary CCP value is 6000 isk, but whose actual market value is 50000 isk.
Just tax in isk per m3, not %. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:02:00 -
[505] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
You have to be kidding me. You're entire logic for this change is a hope others will allow you to use it. Have you ever been in WH space at all as a neut from the corporation that is at home there. What do you YOU think the chances are they will allow you to run in and out unmolested full of valuable goods, while at the same time depleting their own fuel sources? I will tell you, ZERO!
You think 0.0 sov will allow you to run your industrial full of POS fuel and other goodies unmolested out of the goodness of their hearts.?
Be a man and call this what it is, a lockout of PI for the small person and an attempt to make PI relevant for DUST. This is a horribly stupid ideal and you obviously haven't played the game, haven't played PI, haven't owned your own station in any sec space much less WH space and know how it relates to PI. Why are you in charge of this project, you obviously don't have the experience to implement this without messing up a good portion of the game and your comments show this isn't a well thought out implementation. Yet you want to push this out near winter?
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:04:00 -
[506] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. You have to be kidding me. You're entire logic for this change is a hope others will allow you to use it. Have you ever been in WH space at all as a neut from the corporation that is at home there. What do you YOU think the chances are they will allow you to run in and out unmolested full of valuable goods, while at the same time depleting their own fuel sources? I will tell you, ZERO! You think 0.0 sov will allow you to run your industrial full of POS fuel and other goodies unmolested out of the goodness of their hearts.? Be a man and call this what it is, a lockout of PI for the small person and an attempt to make PI relevant for DUST. This is a horribly stupid ideal and you obviously haven't played the game, haven't played PI, haven't owned your own station in any sec space much less WH space and know how it relates to PI. Why are you in charge of this project, you obviously don't have the experience to implement this without messing up a good portion of the game and your comments show this isn't a well thought out implementation. Yet you want to push this out near winter?
They're starting to see what's going on here. The small producers should not be ignored (entirely) on this, CCP. |
Di Mulle
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:04:00 -
[507] - Quote
Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.
Thread ran forward too fast, but I still want to QFT this.
CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:04:00 -
[508] - Quote
Bodega Cat wrote:Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. Why don't you work out a deal with them? You know, emergent content style.... If you've been in there doing it this long, they probably don't mind that much, and consider you an annoyance, particularly if you are avoiding confronting them. Its possible this could be lucrative for you to continue doing, even if you are paying 10% to the wormhole affiliation.
I live in wh space 100% I would take your name put on adress book and hunt you till you left my hole. WH corps dont share whs with single entities. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:05:00 -
[509] - Quote
pmchem wrote:CCP, you realize having taxes set on these things as a percent of some arbitrary value is kind of ridiculous, right? Since you're not tracking market value of the products, just let the CO owner set taxes as exact ISK/m3 instead of a %. I realize the end result is the same but there is something silly about a situation where the CO could be set to "100% tax" on a product whose arbitrary CCP value is 6000 isk, but whose actual market value is 50000 isk.
Just tax in isk per m3, not %.
This is the only fair way to tax. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:05:00 -
[510] - Quote
CCP omen, have you read all the views of the people who think this is a terribad idea? i know you ahve read teh views of teh ones that think is good.
can you tell us how your going to address the concerns of teh ones that think its bad? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
|
Traska Gannel
ROC Deep Space
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:06:00 -
[511] - Quote
Questions: (I didn't read the whole thread to see if these were asked already):
1) Will we be able to use spaceports to launch resources into orbit either a) when a customs office is not present b) when we do not have the standings to use the customs office
... operation of on-planet enterprises should not be dictated by the presence or absence of orbital facilities though the transfer of resources can be expedited by a customs office.
2) Roaming fleets wll pop customs offices for giggles and kill mails on a regular basis if there are no other targets available. Folks will do it just for the fun of griefing others.
a) Should customs offices have defences of some sort? Fighters for example? b) Should attacking customs offices be a no-risk activity?
3) For this to be a viable in-game business model ... i.e. why would anyone do this ... it needs to be able to make a profit. So ... based on stated resource requirements for ONE customs office:
BPC = 6000LP + 20 mil ISK ~= 26,000,000 ISK (at 1000ISK/LP) Parts: Manufacturing the Customs Office Gantry: Skill requirement: Industry V Integrity Response Drones: 5 Nano-Factory: 10 Organic Mortar Applicators: 10 Sterile Conduits: 14 Capital Construction Parts: 1 Upgrade to Customs Office: Broadcast Node: 8 Recursive Computing Module: 8 Self-Harmonizing Power Core: 8 Wetware Mainframe: 8 Parts Cost ~= $75,000,000 ISK at current market value
Total cost for one customs office = 100,000,000 ISK.
Personally my current export taxes average about 60,000 ISK/planet/dayt
Assuming that there are 5 people on each planet (which is not typically the case in my experience) - this would be a return of 300k ISK/day assuming that the rates are held about the same as current.
100,000,000/300,000 = 333 days which is close to a year before you show any profit under what I would consider a fairly optimistic estimate of cash flow.
Conclusion: I don't think anyone in their right mind would build one of these given the current costs since the odds of it lasting a year in order to start making a miniscule profit (300k isk/day) compared to other sources of income in the game (even if totally passive) is NOT cost effective.
CCP ... it is a great idea ... but please go back and look at your numbers or you will be putting in another feature that will simply fail. |
Desiderya
Tirokkunone
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:06:00 -
[512] - Quote
Thanks Omen for all the answers in this thread, by the way.
We'll see how this will work. Taxes are probably a rather low income. If they are too high you will chase away customers. Without loot griefing will probably be not a huge issue, too, more so with COs staying operational in reinforced mode. That's a lowsec perspective. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:07:00 -
[513] - Quote
Liandra Xi wrote:Jake Centauri wrote:The combat players love the change. The industrial players hate it. That about sums it up. What do you think 0.0 producers mainly are? Industrialist in PVP alliances or PVP'ers doing industry on the side? I don't know about all alliances but its certainly the latter mainly in our alliance, I think all producers can see the increased management is more than offset by CCP finally giving us "crops" to plant and burn. As long as they can remove Titans/Supercaps from dominating the fights then I think most 0.0 PI'ers can see this will result in a lot of fun fights.
Clearly you don't know very many industrialists outside of your alliance. A very large portion of industrialists I have met do NOT commit themselves to PvP as much as a POCO would demand. I know players who have been bearing it up for the 4+ years they have been playing, and did absolutely zero PvP the entire time. Some of these people manage 30+ planets at a time. They don't have time to PvP. Most of their time is devoted to carebear activities. 0.0 isn't really going to matter in the long run, because whoever holds sov is going to have the PI on lockdown anyway. Big deal.
Lowsec is going to have the largest impact. Besides, most of the 0.0 carebears I've met would much rather continue mining than be forced to roll out on a CTA in whatever ****fit PvP ship they have on hand at the moment, if any. |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
37
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:10:00 -
[514] - Quote
Bodega Cat wrote:You know, emergent content style.... If you've been in there doing it this long, they probably don't mind that much, and consider you an annoyance, particularly if you are avoiding confronting them.
Its possible this could be lucrative for you to continue doing, even if you are paying 10% to the wormhole affiliation.
More likely, there was little or nothing they could do about it short of camping the CO 24/7 hoping to catch him in a trap. Likely not worth their time.
It's one thing to ignore the 'irritation' when it's more trouble to scratch than it's worth. Now they don't need to scratch. |
Minop
ADVANCED R6D INSTITUTION ARTESANOS
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:10:00 -
[515] - Quote
I think it's going to be a new fail of CCP that will only permit to big corps/allys exploit planets like moons...
A penalty.. it-¦ll increase all goods derivated by PI exponentially..
Sincerely, I don-¦t understand the last ways took by CCP... |
Xintri Ra'Virr
Six Kin Mining and Development Group
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:15:00 -
[516] - Quote
From one side im glad about that change. As a owner of 15 colonies i just stopped selling my stocks because i expect to PI material will rise in price until said change of custom offices will be deployed. That will make many other items rise in price in general. ( Most items are made on POSes) --> fuel will be more expensive than now. Second thing, this is unofficial LOWSEC boost. If PI will go high enough more ppl will start doing it and there will be fights of custom ownership and more ppl in low means piracy will gain too.
From other side im worried bout that change.
This change in Custom offices puts on stake my 800 - 1B / month pure passive income in long term. I worried that ppl who will owners od customs will set tax to 100% just to keep PI materials prices as high as possible for long time.
Also WH players just gain nice opportunity to make billions without risk cuz noone will blow their customs. ( proice will raise dirasticly ). Its kinda unfair but meh... |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:15:00 -
[517] - Quote
VaMei wrote:Bodega Cat wrote:You know, emergent content style.... If you've been in there doing it this long, they probably don't mind that much, and consider you an annoyance, particularly if you are avoiding confronting them.
Its possible this could be lucrative for you to continue doing, even if you are paying 10% to the wormhole affiliation.
More likely, there was little or nothing they could do about it short of camping the CO 24/7 hoping to catch him in a trap. Likely not worth their time. It's one thing to ignore the 'irritation' when it's more trouble to scratch than it's worth. Now they don't need to scratch.
This line of thinking generally fails. They'll still hunt the neutral. Several posters have already commented on just how bored some people get inside a WH. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:16:00 -
[518] - Quote
Interesting change, looking forward to seeing its impacts on markets. One question, though I assume I know the answer, only one office per planet, yes? |
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:17:00 -
[519] - Quote
Candente wrote:Firstly, I donGÇÖt understand the devGÇÖs approach of GÇ£letGÇÖs try this first and if it doesnGÇÖt work weGÇÖll change it.GÇ¥ EveGÇÖs market is a delicate beast, and for many well-thought comments on this thread, it is more than evident that for people who actually play and use PI feature within the context of the gameGÇÖs environment and politics, most of the changes will introduce more problems.
Well theirs a really good reason for why they do that, and its because what your design intent in practice is, will end up being something else entirely by the way the users game it down once its released no matter what.
Theirs simply no realistic way in a sandbox game as delicate as eve to develope a feature so soundly and stoutly from the design floor that it is brilliant and balanced and fits perfectly and snuggly right into the market the day it launches.
Think of droping an ornate new playground piece of equipment into a sandbox for little monkeys. You really don't know if they're going to swing from it, climb all over it, or run away from it cause it smells funny.
One thing you can be certain of is, the market will stabilize, and some people will get super rich off of it.
|
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:18:00 -
[520] - Quote
I want to put out some reasons why this will not work in WH.
Taxes from the planets will be minimal since they are not traveled very much to get the industrial in and out. By having the PI, the occupying corporation has to then allow the hauler/pi + prober so the PI can get out of the system. At the same time the planet will be depleted so the WH corp is now competing against someone in their own system for resources. So they may be forced to now bring in more materials than before ...do you think that price is worth the tax received? If you do, I want to sell you a statute outside Jita.
Now while the PI is operating the WH corp has to allow that person free access which means Intel. How hard is it to pull Intel on the WH system, corp, defenses, time on, ships flow, etc all under the guise of "PI"? Your "hope" to have the system owner allow a neut is the same as 0.0 systems allowing neuts, you are only inviting ambush, disaster, or worse to your wh and giving free intel to whoever may be interested.
Now lets talk about the hole itself. Most active WH corps will close the holes. If you have someone you let do PI for taxes they might start making a fuss about closing those holes. Conversely, the pi pilot may shutter the hole on their way in and out in which the WH corp was using and routing a supply ship through. not a big issue but aggravation factor can increase when conducting an operation.
Next we have the pirate-in-disguise. Once they have a foothold in your WH with their PI/prober guy they likely have to have an alt in order to keep someone in the whole so they can get their goodies out. If they can get out they can get in. You've just invited someone to bring some nasty ships into the hole to disrupt your operations, especially mining. They can also bring in a ship (depending on wh class) and start clearing out your sites. They have to have probing skill to find the wh exit so they can find your sleepers...there goes a big chunk of income for the WH corporation.
So we have to weigh all the cons (free intel giveaway, possible attacks, competing for planet resources, competing for WH resources) v. the pros (uh some taxes from 1 or 2 pi people). Which one of these do you think will happen. Hope all you want but get back to reality of this game and get your head into the game before making these types of decisions. |
|
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:18:00 -
[521] - Quote
Oh one other question and it's really important and i haven't seen anyone ask it yet...
Can the Offices be named? |
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries The Black Armada
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:18:00 -
[522] - Quote
Needs to have the ability to give a discount based on standings to the owner of the customs office.
Minimum standings for use is good but we need to be able to more granularly set taxes. |
Phoenix IV
The 8th Order
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:22:00 -
[523] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote: I respectfully disagree. I've lived in quite a few different areas of lowsec. The positives that you're talking about are the exception, not the rule.
My opinion only, I can't see the future. PI is not and never will be technetium moon level income (or level 4 mission level). I doubt any big alliance will waste time to guard structures 24/7 which can be killed by 15-20 stealth bombers within an hour. But I think with the high sec PI tax increase it will create moderate income for people who actually live there. And for solo players: worst case they pay some tax for the owner of the CO. And? They'll still make money.
Mikron Alexarr wrote: Many areas of low-sec are either abandoned or owned by people that would rather not be generous with any shared resources.
Abandoned low-sec: it can't be worse than now. Populated low-sec: as I said earlier nothing can stop you to do PI, you pay some taxes, that's all.
Mikron Alexarr wrote: Too many people have this idea that low sec is the stepping stone to null sec, where alliances are formed and broken like in null. They think you can really get a foothold in low-sec if someone doesn't want you there. Some corps can do it, some can't. It depends on many things. But this is nothing to do with PI.
|
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:22:00 -
[524] - Quote
Xintri Ra'Virr wrote:From one side im glad about that change. As a owner of 15 colonies i just stopped selling my stocks because i expect to PI material will rise in price until said change of custom offices will be deployed. That will make many other items rise in price in general. ( Most items are made on POSes) --> fuel will be more expensive than now. Second thing, this is unofficial LOWSEC boost. If PI will go high enough more ppl will start doing it and there will be fights of custom ownership and more ppl in low means piracy will gain too.
From other side im worried bout that change.
This change in Custom offices puts on stake my 800 - 1B / month pure passive income in long term. I worried that ppl who will owners od customs will set tax to 100% just to keep PI materials prices as high as possible for long time.
Also WH players just gain nice opportunity to make billions without risk cuz noone will blow their customs. ( proice will raise dirasticly ). Its kinda unfair but meh...
With regards to whs. In the last year we have occupied three separate whs. Now with this change upgrading holes is going to be much more difficult. Not only do you have to remove any left over dead poses but all the dead COs too. So they will be destroyed in wh and no we have plenty of risk. Just ask all the haulers i watch leave a pos to get torpedoed seconds later at the custom office. |
gfldex
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:24:00 -
[525] - Quote
How do the figures look like anyway? How much PI stuff is mined in lowsec compared to highsec?
Anyway, you may want to reconsider the requirements to build named capital guns. It's a bit odd to pay as much for 3 guns then for the hull.
|
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:24:00 -
[526] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:CCP omen, have you read all the views of the people who think this is a terribad idea? i know you ahve read teh views of teh ones that think is good.
can you tell us how your going to address the concerns of teh ones that think its bad? The majority of people who think its a bad idea have no solid ground to base their arguments off of, it's all emotional bullshit about how CCP is a bad company and how blobby goons are going to take over eve, and you're doing nothing to help. |
Nlex
Domini Canium
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:24:00 -
[527] - Quote
So no more setting up PI in dusty low-sec for those lone wolves? Have to wait until someone else installs CO or bother with a corp for that? |
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:25:00 -
[528] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:I want to put out some reasons why this will not work in WH.
blah blah blah blah blah
Well, you are absolutely right. The only wormhole corps or ops on the reg that wouldn't really care about a lot of your concerns would be the smaller outfits run by the one odd russian with 12 accounts, or a small team of guys.
However, these particularly smaller units have everything to fear about giving an inch to anyone at all, even if they wouldn't care about mass hits from an itty run every other day. They must have the CO's all set to off.
In EVE, theirs few circumstances where it pays to be friendly at the chance of a little bit more pay in exchange for opening the door to a future burn.
|
Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:26:00 -
[529] - Quote
This would be a good idea if the COs were linked to SOV and once you lost sov, they had to be reinforced just like the station. Otherwise their just easily grief-able targets. There's now no point in PI in Lowsec and 0.0 unless you're some big ass alliance like the Russian Drones. Thanks CCP. |
Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
46
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:27:00 -
[530] - Quote
Well, I've got mixed feellings on first impressions. I like that PI is finally getting some aspect of conflict, and I like that the CO's will be using PI materials to build them.
I'm less sure about how disruptive it is going to be to get any PI done if the CO's keep getting shot up every few days. Especially in low sec where its harder to secure an area. I almost wonder if the structures should stay in a reinforced mode for longer to deter opportunistic griefing, the longer you go from the forst attack the less likely they are to come back for the lulz.
I like that a CO is still operational while in RF, that reduces the griefing aspect as players don't lose out on production unless the CO is destroyed outright.
RF mechanics vs stront. I think I prefer the fuel-less sov style RF timer to using stront, simply because if a CO burns fuel when RF'ed then it will promote griefing using ships that dont use ammo (lasers, fighters etc) to waste the owners fuel and so cost ISK. I think it might end up being more irritating having to refuel and not lead to much resulting fun.
Command Centre capacity. If CO's are going to be removed everywhere outside of high sec then I think that planetary launches may need a boost. 'Ninja PI' is going to suck if you can't get the goods off world faster than your colony makes the stuff. IIRC launches are constrained by the command centres capacity and have a time constraint (1 every 24hrs? is it). I have never actually used planetary launches as spaceports just always seemed the better option.
I can see in the future that I may be designing some colonies for launches and using a CO on the world where I assemble stuff for import/export. In which case I need to be able to launch enough stuff to act as a viable alternative to building and defending a CO on every world.
CO's to use alliance standings. As a null sec dweller and CEO, I find it best to use alliance standings to govern who can use the outpost we currently manage, who our POS guns fire on and who shows up blue or red in overview. Our corp standings are not used, we are part of the alliance and follow its diplomacy. If we are going to be owning CO's, I'd like to be able to set them to use alliance standings, and for other corps in the alliance to be able to use them in kind. What I do not want to do is end up micro managing corp standings to reflect changes in alliance standings. That would not be fun. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |
|
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:29:00 -
[531] - Quote
Bodega Cat wrote:Buruk Utama wrote:I want to put out some reasons why this will not work in WH.
blah blah blah blah blah Well, you are absolutely right. The only wormhole corps or ops on the reg that wouldn't really care about a lot of your concerns would be the smaller outfits run by the one odd russian with 12 accounts, or a small team of guys. However, these particularly smaller units have everything to fear about giving an inch to anyone at all, even if they wouldn't care about mass hits from an itty run every other day. They must have the CO's all set to off. In EVE, theirs few circumstances where it pays to be friendly at the chance of a little bit more pay in exchange for opening the door to a future burn.
I just want to point out these are just simple examples off the top of my head. Regardless if some of them can be negated it goes back to the fact this is not a very well thought out plan for implementation and cause-affect issues. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:30:00 -
[532] - Quote
Question on a different topic regarding the CO.
If the CO is in reinforce is it usable or locked out? |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:31:00 -
[533] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:I certainly won't do PI now. Why risk someone putting my tax to 100% or limiting my exports and denying me the ability to do imports. Seriously. Now I need to call on my alliance to handle attacks on my PI, which isn't very profitable anyway. No way.
One more competitor down. Keep dropping out everyone! |
gfldex
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:31:00 -
[534] - Quote
Phoenix IV wrote:PI [...] technetium moon
Could you kindly put that can of worms away?
|
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:34:00 -
[535] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:CCP omen, have you read all the views of the people who think this is a terribad idea? i know you ahve read teh views of teh ones that think is good.
can you tell us how your going to address the concerns of teh ones that think its bad? The majority of people who think its a bad idea have no solid ground to base their arguments off of, it's all emotional bullshit about how CCP is a bad company and how blobby goons are going to take over eve, and you're doing nothing to help.
so its emotional to see that teh cost/risk/reward is so wrong its not funny. 1 year to get the investment back? why bother easier to just jet can. no 2nd 3 rd timer so only a max of what 30h to stop your investment dying, shoudl be at least the same as a pos 1d17h max.
increased cost of pos fuels/pos fits, towers and mods, and all t2 items.
pi being sucking and far far from how the vision of pi was ment to be. see fanfest presentaion 09 i think it was.
so there emotional arguments.. i dont care about goons, or any of there pets. why do you have a hard on about everything being about you? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:35:00 -
[536] - Quote
Phoenix IV wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote: I respectfully disagree. I've lived in quite a few different areas of lowsec. The positives that you're talking about are the exception, not the rule.
My opinion only, I can't see the future. PI is not and never will be technetium moon level income (or level 4 mission level). I doubt any big alliance will waste time to guard structures 24/7 which can be killed by 15-20 stealth bombers within an hour. But I think with the high sec PI tax increase it will create moderate income for people who actually live there. And for solo players: worst case they pay some tax for the owner of the CO. And? They'll still make money. Mikron Alexarr wrote: Many areas of low-sec are either abandoned or owned by people that would rather not be generous with any shared resources.
Abandoned low-sec: it can't be worse than now. Populated low-sec: as I said earlier nothing can stop you to do PI, you pay some taxes, that's all. Mikron Alexarr wrote: Too many people have this idea that low sec is the stepping stone to null sec, where alliances are formed and broken like in null. They think you can really get a foothold in low-sec if someone doesn't want you there. Some corps can do it, some can't. It depends on many things. But this is nothing to do with PI.
The point that many of us are griping about is that PI producers in low-sec make money based on some premises:
1) access to the CO is unrestricted. 2) yeild is generally high on low-sec planets compared to high-sec. 3) The CO is always there. 4) the support of a full corporation isn't required for day to day operation.
When those premises are not in place, it simply is not profitable to do PI. To elaborate further as to why:
1) We can eventually get to the CO and get our goods and leave. Not being able to get goods out in reasonable volumes removes the planet's viability. 2) Several things contribute to this, but it's generally unaffected by the changes that have been put forth by development. 3) Having to build and maintain a CO is expensvie and cost-prohibitive for anyone but a small corporation or larger group of people. See next point. 4) The whole process will not typically support an entire corporation of people wanting to make money. The money just isn't there and even with the radical changes in prices that will occur, it will remain non-viable. |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
38
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:36:00 -
[537] - Quote
Nlex wrote:So no more setting up PI in dusty low-sec for those lone wolves? Have to wait until someone else installs CO or bother with a corp for that?
If someone does put up a CO, you have to hope that the owner feels that the tax from your exports is worth more than their extraction rates.
If you put one up yourself, you'd better be able to defend it. That defenseless punching bad owned by a one man corp is going to to be farmed like mad for the tears it'll create; and more than likely, they'll WANT you to defend it.
Maybe the Goonies will decide, out of the goodness of their blackened hearts, that they want to occupy all of the low-sec planets and make them open to neutrals for a nominal fee; just for the stability it'll give the game. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:36:00 -
[538] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Handsome ******* wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Holy One wrote:I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else. Same here. I think i'll join the mass exodus from PI and start doing incursions instead. 3 more PI alts up for sale.... Confirming that my hauling/PI alt is already training for a Tengu. I did not have time to read the entire thread, can someone bring me up to speed on why people would rather waste their PI characters on another profession instead of: 1: Continuing to do PI in Empire Space, just as they always have. Granted, the fee for import/export will be 10% instead of 5% now. 2: Use the CO someone else has put up if it is in low or null sec, assuming the taxes aren't too high. 3: If those taxes are too high, or you are not allowed access, simply use the launchpad as you always could. 4: If there is no CO in place, form a small PI corp for the purposes of putting up your own CO. You may even earn extra income from the taxing of other people using those planets. Did I miss something meaningful? Or are people just throwing up their hands because they don't understand or didn't read the blog correctly?
1. I don't know why so many people think high sec PI is going to be very fruitful with a doubled tax. I blame CCP sympathizers. They don't actually know how economies work and just act like yes-men for CCP. High sec PI is already a fairly crappy chore for very little output, and continuing PI in high sec will remain an only slightly fruitful task.
2. The taxes WILL be too high. Such is the nature of any large corporation/alliance; put as much pressure on a niche as possible to exploit the market in your favor. Goonswarm is trying to do that with ice belts as we speak. Now, instead of just ice belt ganking, we're going to see a lot of POCO's we can't access or get taxed heavily on because the major alliances are going to hog them up so they can manipulate the PI market to their benefit.
3. You must be crazy to think a 500m3 launch is going to solve this problem. If they made it a 5000m3 launch, I could maybe understand. But 500? No, I'm just going to ditch my PI and find some other way to make my ISK.
4. What small PI corp is going to be able to maintain and defend that POCO? When a larger corporation decides they want the moon your small corp's POS is sitting at, what happens to that POS? It gets destroyed. The same will happen to your POCO. All you will have accomplished is wasting time, ISK, and materials to get it up and running. What incentive would people have to use your POCO when they can either hire a mercenary to blast it to bits for probably a pretty cheap fee, or just blow it up themselves? A small corp, PI or otherwise, is typically going to run during one or two time zones. It won't last very long.
You missed a lot of meaningful things said in this thread. But most of them are from the people who oppose this being implemented. All I have seen so far from the people who like this idea(I've read at least 200 posts) is a bunch of bull about how people are going to work together, or how alliances and corporations will be reasonable with the taxes and standings, just a bunch of unrealistic bull****.
This is EvE. If they aren't being paid, you aren't getting laid. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:36:00 -
[539] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:Question on a different topic regarding the CO.
If the CO is in reinforce is it usable or locked out?
Yes. Answered several times in this thread. |
Budsin Adar
Tears of Galactic Blood Wolves
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:38:00 -
[540] - Quote
Cool So like a shopping center only very small. I guess that explains why they have the spin back in stations I guess that's] an up grade of the quarters being done. But what ever then station walking I was getting a cold but sitting in my room watching the games But funny no bidding on PVP fights hmm maybe soon? So we can charge for what we can shove into it but if they have good or bad standings and not want them let say then they can be what ?? Shot or just Denied ? let me know sounds cool |
|
Avery Jaydefyre
Guns Rocks and Probes Reverberation Project
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:39:00 -
[541] - Quote
My qualifications:
pi operating high sec; low sec; wh space; npc 0.0
First off, I do like the changes. So no qqing here about the pvp aspect.
A few questions
1. Will I be refunded the pi building costs for existing structures do to the change?
2. I was planning on moving my pi to low sec. I will take a wait and see approach. Currently the difference in planetary quality between low and high sec is negligible in most cases (till about .2). Will low sec pi be buffed to reflect the additional costs for operation/risk factor? Obviously, its gonna be a turkey shoot for the first few weeks.
Predictions:
Pi in low sec will drop lower overall. Managing multiple planets as things stand is not difficult (I believe I've run up to 15ish at the same time). This will now require corp planning, which is cool. However the added risks for the planets are not worth the headaches of running low sec pi.
Consider, pi must now be planned and run in low sec on a corp level. The defense of the customs offices becomes a corp job. However the depletion rates in low sec are a joke (till about .2) as are the quality rates. Additionally, the corp will have to hire dust 514 mercs (if it is implemented properly) that will eat into profitability (if there's a 1:1 isk conversion rate for merc costs, it will make it worse). Then the corp has to pay for the customs offices and defend those customs offices, per planet. This is cool, helps to make the pew pew come to me. Unfortunately depletion rates and quality in low sec are crap in comparison to wh and sov space (repeating this in case it was lost in the wall 'o text). The risks in high sec are minimized until dust 514 comes out, and thats a we will see risk factor at this point. Why would I bother trying to arrange a pi production chain that puts more isk at risk that I or the corp can earn in a reasonable amount of time? Setting up corp pi chains is fine, but in low sec, I can't see it being viable.
Result: low sec pi has to be buffed, or it'll be even more non-existent than it is now. Prices will rise overall, resulting in fewer poses in high/low sec due to operational costs. Carebear sov space (you know who you are) will profit massively off of pi. The safety factor for sov production will depend on the alliance. Carebear space gets a hug, low sec doesn't get a reach around. One more thing I won't do in low sec because the isk-risk-time conversion rate is not in line with what I consider acceptable. And screw running it in high sec, since I spend my time in low sec when I get to log in to the game.
Edit: I forgot to specify one thing, for low sec pi to be profitable for the corp, there will have to be multiple members doing it on the same planet, hence my focus on depletion rates and quality. |
Crasniya
Dragon's Legion of New Eden
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:39:00 -
[542] - Quote
I have to ask the Wormhole people who think they shouldn't be affected by this change:
Does it make sense that CONCORD has automagically set up facilities in all of these bizarre foreign spaces with which you have no idea where they really are, and could completely unpredictably disappear at any moment? |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:41:00 -
[543] - Quote
Crasniya wrote:I have to ask the Wormhole people who think they shouldn't be affected by this change:
Does it make sense that CONCORD has automagically set up facilities in all of these bizarre foreign spaces with which you have no idea where they really are, and could completely unpredictably disappear at any moment?
just as strange as paying concord for sov fee's in 0.0 space CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:42:00 -
[544] - Quote
If I destroy a POCO will all the Planet Goo inside the personal hangers drop? 50% like all other drops? or nothing?
|
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:47:00 -
[545] - Quote
Also, if CCP's stance is that we should not be making permanent homes in W-Space, why are they now asking us to build more stuff there that is going to make people hunker down even more in W-Space since they are now possibly investing several Billion Isk to be able to do PI there.
Seems counter to the goal of not colonizing W-Space. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:47:00 -
[546] - Quote
Traska Gannel wrote:Questions: (I didn't read the whole thread to see if these were asked already):
1) Will we be able to use spaceports to launch resources into orbit either a) when a customs office is not present b) when we do not have the standings to use the customs office
... operation of on-planet enterprises should not be dictated by the presence or absence of orbital facilities though the transfer of resources can be expedited by a customs office.
2) Roaming fleets wll pop customs offices for giggles and kill mails on a regular basis if there are no other targets available. Folks will do it just for the fun of griefing others.
a) Should customs offices have defences of some sort? Fighters for example? b) Should attacking customs offices be a no-risk activity?
3) For this to be a viable in-game business model ... i.e. why would anyone do this ... it needs to be able to make a profit. So ... based on stated resource requirements for ONE customs office:
BPC = 6000LP + 20 mil ISK ~= 26,000,000 ISK (at 1000ISK/LP) Parts: Manufacturing the Customs Office Gantry: Skill requirement: Industry V Integrity Response Drones: 5 Nano-Factory: 10 Organic Mortar Applicators: 10 Sterile Conduits: 14 Capital Construction Parts: 1 Upgrade to Customs Office: Broadcast Node: 8 Recursive Computing Module: 8 Self-Harmonizing Power Core: 8 Wetware Mainframe: 8 Parts Cost ~= $75,000,000 ISK at current market value
Total cost for one customs office = 100,000,000 ISK.
Personally my current export taxes average about 60,000 ISK/planet/dayt
Assuming that there are 5 people on each planet (which is not typically the case in my experience) - this would be a return of 300k ISK/day assuming that the rates are held about the same as current.
100,000,000/300,000 = 333 days which is close to a year before you show any profit under what I would consider a fairly optimistic estimate of cash flow.
Conclusion: I don't think anyone in their right mind would build one of these given the current costs since the odds of it lasting a year in order to start making a miniscule profit (300k isk/day) compared to other sources of income in the game (even if totally passive) is NOT cost effective.
CCP ... it is a great idea ... but please go back and look at your numbers or you will be putting in another feature that will simply fail.
Didn't factor in BP costs as far as I can tell.
|
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:48:00 -
[547] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote: so its emotional to see that teh cost/risk/reward is so wrong its not funny. 1 year to get the investment back? why bother easier to just jet can.
1 year to get your investment back? You're putting up customs office at the wrong planets my friend!
Smoking Blunts wrote: no 2nd 3 rd timer so only a max of what 30h to stop your investment dying, shoudl be at least the same as a pos 1d17h max.
If you can't defend your quasi-pos within a day, you deserve to lose it.
Smoking Blunts wrote: increased cost of pos fuels/pos fits, towers and mods, and all t2 items.
The free market will solve this issue.
Smoking Blunts wrote: pi being sucking and far far from how the vision of pi was ment to be. see fanfest presentaion 09 i think it was.
That's your opinion.
Smoking Blunts wrote: so there emotional arguments.. i dont care about goons, or any of there pets. why do you have a hard on about everything being about you?
HEH |
Centurin
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:52:00 -
[548] - Quote
The only thing this change will do is raise fuel prices even higher and remove PI from lowsec. WTG. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:53:00 -
[549] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote: no 2nd 3 rd timer so only a max of what 30h to stop your investment dying, shoudl be at least the same as a pos 1d17h max.
If you can't defend your quasi-pos within a day, you deserve to lose it.
So if PL decides to run through several low sec systems with caps/super caps and put every POCO into reinforce for lulz (or goons) and your corp/alliance cannot field the necessary 2-3xemey fleet within 24 hrs, everyone deserves to lose the POCO? I can see this system ripe for total abuse and lockout of PI in vast areas. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:55:00 -
[550] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote: no 2nd 3 rd timer so only a max of what 30h to stop your investment dying, shoudl be at least the same as a pos 1d17h max.
If you can't defend your quasi-pos within a day, you deserve to lose it.
Coming from someone who can call their alliance members to help defend one, that isn't saying very much. |
|
Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
64
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:56:00 -
[551] - Quote
Seriously, if you want to make this fun, rather than a hideous chore, you need to make them smaller, cheaper, and easier to hurt.
Small: 1000m^3, just like CCs, would be fine. Even the wormhole guys could get all the platforms they need in a couple blockade runners, so they will be happy.
Cheap: Plan for the finished product to cost no more than 5,000,000 isk, including the cost of the BPC and all the construction components.
Easy to hurt: Drop the initial hitpoints down to 10% of what has been listed. Make it feasible for a small BS gang to knock one of these into reinforced in 15 minutes. Actually killing them is probably okay at the hitpoints listed, since breaking something should be easier than utterly destroying it. The easier they are to knock into reinforced, the less likely it will be a "worthwhile" activity for supercaps.
Small, cheap structures create more dynamic gameplay than large, expensive ones. Easy come, easy go. Griefers coming by and knocking down your customs centers for lols should be a minor annoyance, not something that makes you consider quitting because it will be such a tremendous hassle to put them back up. |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:56:00 -
[552] - Quote
Bodega Cat wrote:Can the Offices be named?
Oh I know the answer to this one - no you cannot name them (sorry).
Also, popping my dev post cherry. |
|
Lolmer
Merciless Reckoning
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 20:59:00 -
[553] - Quote
Will editing reinforce timer/standings/tax of a Customs Office have to be done while right next to the customs office, so we have to fly to each CO the corp owns to update it if we change policies, or is there a central point where the corporation may manage all (or subsets of all) customs offices?
e.g.
- Set all reinforce timers to 23:00 EvE Time
- Set all tax rates to 10% (really need more granular tax control for corp/alliance/each standings)
- Set the customs offices in your "core" systems to +5 and higher
- Set the customs offices outside your core systems to -5 and higher
You also need to seed the BPCs well in advance of your change so that the new Customs Offices may be built and ready to deploy when you pull the rug out from us, as some of our PI needs to be moved around on planets faster than people will be able to procure a BPC, manufacture, and then deploy and upgrade. |
MNagy
Yo-Mama Quixotic Hegemony
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:00:00 -
[554] - Quote
Perhaps a limitation to a corporation of owning only 3 (for example) of these per corp would do the trick.
Thus forcing you to pick / choose wisely and you cannot just erect them anywhere as you please. But by doing tihs- it requires that you need to 'rent' someone elses too and thus - you rent as well to other people.
The offices should require as well the 'starbase charters' in ls. (but doesnt hold a lot of starbase charters) If the starbase charter runs out - the whole module should be free for the taking - without any stront requirement. You should be able to unanchor the structure and take it or errect it as your own.
Why is the "starbase charters" important? Because right now we have 100's of pos's that are offline and just using up space by corps that never use them. If you dont pay the tax man, your stuff gets repo'd. Simply Put.
Those are my 2 cents.
|
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:00:00 -
[555] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Bodega Cat wrote:Can the Offices be named? Oh I know the answer to this one - no you cannot name them (sorry). Also, popping my dev post cherry.
You gota flip your picture port around. Your Dev banner covers your entire face |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:02:00 -
[556] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Bodega Cat wrote:Can the Offices be named? Oh I know the answer to this one - no you cannot name them (sorry). Also, popping my dev post cherry. You gota flip your picture port around. Your Dev banner covers your entire face
Probably for the best. |
|
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:02:00 -
[557] - Quote
Crasniya wrote:I have to ask the Wormhole people who think they shouldn't be affected by this change:
Does it make sense that CONCORD has automagically set up facilities in all of these bizarre foreign spaces with which you have no idea where they really are, and could completely unpredictably disappear at any moment?
Didn't say we don't like it. I like the overall concept. What I don't like is:
1. Extra junk to remove for new wh owners (we got no supers and c1 are nothing bigger then bc)
2. CCP is releasing bpcs in a way that forces us to leave our preferred play style and go do incursions or fw to get while market stabilizes.
3. CCP thinking we will play nice with neutrals in our hole.
4. CCP saying if there is a problem post release they will iterate on it ( see pos, hybrids, supers how long to fix?)
5. CCP saying this wont have ripple effects though t2 and t3 production dependent n poses.
6. A price tag that will take a year to recoup per office.
As been said before in thread a phased deployment to work out bugs is better then a broken mechanic that will be more is beneficial to only a small player subset. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:03:00 -
[558] - Quote
the return is from teh tax, not from pi. the tax amounts are crap, unless you happen to be have people who use it as a factory planet your return will be a year.
the defence thing should be longer than 24h, after all this is ment to be for everyone. 24h isnt enough time for a small corp to mount an op. guess you wouldnt know being part of many many pet alliances.
pi needs a reworking from the ground up, not some crappy structure add on. my dislike for this whole shoot structure crap. is exactly that, increasing teh amout of massive objects that wont shoot back is a step back to pos spam. that was bad enough. ask soemone about it. take someones sov and have to shoot, pos's, stations, ihubs tcus and now planet structures. omfg a step backwards. are you too dumb to see that? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Raw Matters
KRAUTZ RULEZ KRAUTZ-FEDERATION
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:03:00 -
[559] - Quote
Copied over from my stand-alone post:
Let me do a little foresight on what is going to happen: - High-sec PI will be completely ruined. The already volatile prices will skyrocket. - Low-sec PI will be impossible, because your local gank squad is waiting there for you. And if you don't show up, they destroy it. - 0.0 PI will be frequently interrupted by roaming gank squads. Just shooting it for fun. - Shared offices mean: "Has anyone seen my Electrolytes? No one? Strange..." - Limitation of offices to players/corps means: "Who put this f... office here? Fire at will!" - And if it is well-protected by design, there will be a few earning money out of nothing, while others have no chance to participate other than... "Who put this f... office here? Fire at will!"
Worst idea ever. |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:04:00 -
[560] - Quote
Traska Gannel wrote:
3) For this to be a viable in-game business model ... i.e. why would anyone do this ... it needs to be able to make a profit. So ... based on stated resource requirements for ONE customs office:
BPC = 6000LP + 20 mil ISK ~= 26,000,000 ISK (at 1000ISK/LP) Parts Cost ~= $75,000,000 ISK at current market value
Total cost for one customs office = 100,000,000 ISK.
Personally my current export taxes average about 60,000 ISK/planet/dayt
Assuming that there are 5 people on each planet (which is not typically the case in my experience) - this would be a return of 300k ISK/day assuming that the rates are held about the same as current.
100,000,000/300,000 = 333 days which is close to a year before you show any profit under what I would consider a fairly optimistic estimate of cash flow.
Conclusion: I don't think anyone in their right mind would build one of these given the current costs since the odds of it lasting a year in order to start making a miniscule profit (300k isk/day) compared to other sources of income in the game (even if totally passive) is NOT cost effective.
First off, you are going to want to increase the export taxes from the defaults so that it is viable for you to continue your business. Let's face it, currently CONCORD takes an insignificant amount of taxes from you currently, and you would be silly to use the current export values in a calculation like this. Next, since there are going to be less customs offices in the game, there will be less planets being used by PI, resulting in more people being stationed on a single planet. You will see more "market competition" between slumlords wanting people to use their planets which will be interesting.
Buruk Utama wrote:So if PL decides to run through several low sec systems with caps/super caps and put every POCO into reinforce for lulz (or goons) and your corp/alliance cannot field the necessary 2-3xemey fleet within 24 hrs, everyone deserves to lose the POCO? I can see this system ripe for total abuse and lockout of PI in vast areas. Yes. Deal with it.
Chicken Pizza wrote:Coming from someone who can call their alliance members to help defend one, that isn't saying very much. I am dirty, dishonourable blobber who is slowly destroying this game. |
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:04:00 -
[561] - Quote
Anela Cistine wrote:Seriously, if you want to make this fun, rather than a hideous chore, you need to make them smaller, cheaper, and easier to hurt.
Small: 1000m^3, just like CCs, would be fine. Even the wormhole guys could get all the platforms they need in a couple blockade runners, so they will be happy.
Cheap: Plan for the finished product to cost no more than 5,000,000 isk, including the cost of the BPC and all the construction components.
Easy to hurt: Drop the initial hitpoints down to 10% of what has been listed. Make it feasible for a small BS gang to knock one of these into reinforced in 15 minutes. Actually killing them is probably okay at the hitpoints listed, since breaking something should be easier than utterly destroying it. The easier they are to knock into reinforced, the less likely it will be a "worthwhile" activity for supercaps.
Small, cheap structures create more dynamic gameplay than large, expensive ones. Easy come, easy go. Griefers coming by and knocking down your customs centers for lols should be a minor annoyance, not something that makes you consider quitting because it will be such a tremendous hassle to put them back up.
Yeah, because we certainly want to make this as easy as possible for Goons and PL to wipe out huge quantities of these, thereby griefing as many people as possible. Because the people you attack are online 23/7 to replace what you destroy. I have a slighty different idea. Give them a sig of 1, give them 1 billion EHP, and a cost of 1 ISK, and a reinforcement time of 1 month.
You want to grief people and blow them up, knock yourself out. But it will take a lot of your time and treasure to do it. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
66
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:06:00 -
[562] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Traska Gannel wrote:
3) For this to be a viable in-game business model ... i.e. why would anyone do this ... it needs to be able to make a profit. So ... based on stated resource requirements for ONE customs office:
BPC = 6000LP + 20 mil ISK ~= 26,000,000 ISK (at 1000ISK/LP) Parts Cost ~= $75,000,000 ISK at current market value
Total cost for one customs office = 100,000,000 ISK.
Personally my current export taxes average about 60,000 ISK/planet/dayt
Assuming that there are 5 people on each planet (which is not typically the case in my experience) - this would be a return of 300k ISK/day assuming that the rates are held about the same as current.
100,000,000/300,000 = 333 days which is close to a year before you show any profit under what I would consider a fairly optimistic estimate of cash flow.
Conclusion: I don't think anyone in their right mind would build one of these given the current costs since the odds of it lasting a year in order to start making a miniscule profit (300k isk/day) compared to other sources of income in the game (even if totally passive) is NOT cost effective.
First off, you are going to want to increase the export taxes from the defaults so that it is viable for you to continue your business. Let's face it, currently CONCORD takes an insignificant amount of taxes from you currently, and you would be silly to use the current export values in a calculation like this. Next, since there are going to be less customs offices in the game, there will be less planets being used by PI, resulting in more people being stationed on a single planet. You will see more "market competition" between slumlords wanting people to use their planets which will be interesting. Buruk Utama wrote:So if PL decides to run through several low sec systems with caps/super caps and put every POCO into reinforce for lulz (or goons) and your corp/alliance cannot field the necessary 2-3xemey fleet within 24 hrs, everyone deserves to lose the POCO? I can see this system ripe for total abuse and lockout of PI in vast areas. Yes. Deal with it. Chicken Pizza wrote:Coming from someone who can call their alliance members to help defend one, that isn't saying very much. I am dirty, dishonourable blobber who is slowly destroying this game.
I can't believe I agree with you here, but yes DEAL WITH IT |
Andrea Griffin
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:08:00 -
[563] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Also, popping my dev post cherry. Welcome to the Eve Forums! Your Asbestos Suit is in the closet over there. Don't worry, we have extras ready for you. : >
Tell us a bit about yourself, Nullarbor!
It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:09:00 -
[564] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Anela Cistine wrote:Seriously, if you want to make this fun, rather than a hideous chore, you need to make them smaller, cheaper, and easier to hurt.
Small: 1000m^3, just like CCs, would be fine. Even the wormhole guys could get all the platforms they need in a couple blockade runners, so they will be happy.
Cheap: Plan for the finished product to cost no more than 5,000,000 isk, including the cost of the BPC and all the construction components.
Easy to hurt: Drop the initial hitpoints down to 10% of what has been listed. Make it feasible for a small BS gang to knock one of these into reinforced in 15 minutes. Actually killing them is probably okay at the hitpoints listed, since breaking something should be easier than utterly destroying it. The easier they are to knock into reinforced, the less likely it will be a "worthwhile" activity for supercaps.
Small, cheap structures create more dynamic gameplay than large, expensive ones. Easy come, easy go. Griefers coming by and knocking down your customs centers for lols should be a minor annoyance, not something that makes you consider quitting because it will be such a tremendous hassle to put them back up. Yeah, because we certainly want to make this as easy as possible for Goons and PL to wipe out huge quantities of these, thereby griefing as many people as possible. Because the people you attack are online 23/7 to replace what you destroy.
Anela might have a point here. Cheaper semi disposable structures are more dynamic in the sense you get a faster turn over of them: rather than the proven 'fail' of shooting large HP totals. Easy to put up, easy to put down might be a mantra that actually works if HP blocks are the only option.
C.
|
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:09:00 -
[565] - Quote
Funny... to bad cant get a refund on PI skills. I mean shesh talk about gifting the big RMT allainces... Hello they have enough already///.//// That or Devs get great BJs from them |
iwasatoad
The Lost Disciple's
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:09:00 -
[566] - Quote
if thoes 10 mill sheild and such are real then the point of setting one up in LS or W-space will be mute as people will come easely blow them up just for fun and to cauze havoc
since after all that is the point no problem with it where the problem lies is the fact that you haf to be in faction war fare or run incursians just to get a blue print copy
Here in lies the problem i live in W-space at the moment i do neither nor can i do either run faction ware fare or run incrusions
yet still i will be required to go run incrusions to get a customs office that the first person that come's into the wh will call up all his bud's to blow up with no effort and thus i would be forced yet agin to go run incursions
as a blue print will im sure run around 100-250mill in witch case i will not make the isk back to make it worth even putting one up as it wont last but a week in W-space not to mention i would need 8 of them kinda big investment for what is now a profit margin of from 1-10 percent of what i make i can sell and make around 500mill a month profit from loose 1 custom's office and you have lost the cost of buying blue print or a week's worth of trying to get into a fleet to run incursion
would not be so bad but not worth all the work as it take's more time from auchely being able to afford ship's to pew pew in and win some battles and loose some
in short time spent / isk profit + ship replacment / cost of office = .../ time spent making isk doing outher things
sub 200 man group PI will be a profit loss .
agin not a problem for 0.0 and LS as you have space to support this size of crew . How ever not in W-space with span rate of sight's
CCP plz think about this some more before implimenting it as at this point running a pos in W-space is logistical night mare and spend introducing this to W-space will require more people in the W-space and not be off set in profit
making W-space void aside from you groups that do noting but sit in W-space with static high sec and do indrustry
P.S. eve up date u put out focus's and drives the game twards large fleet support needed.... Not every one want's or will comply with such as large fleet pvp is boring and not exciting it's the small gang 3-10 guy's that are the exciting battles. plz quit driving the game to require you to have 500 friends to support a 100 man fleet around the clock |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:10:00 -
[567] - Quote
Pat Irvam wrote:Crasniya wrote:I have to ask the Wormhole people who think they shouldn't be affected by this change:
Does it make sense that CONCORD has automagically set up facilities in all of these bizarre foreign spaces with which you have no idea where they really are, and could completely unpredictably disappear at any moment? Didn't say we don't like it. I like the overall concept. What I don't like is: 1. Extra junk to remove for new wh owners (we got no supers and c1 are nothing bigger then bc) 2. CCP is releasing bpcs in a way that forces us to leave our preferred play style and go do incursions or fw to get while market stabilizes. 3. CCP thinking we will play nice with neutrals in our hole. 4. CCP saying if there is a problem post release they will iterate on it ( see pos, hybrids, supers how long to fix?) 5. CCP saying this wont have ripple effects though t2 and t3 production dependent n poses. 6. A price tag that will take a year to recoup per office. As been said before in thread a phased deployment to work out bugs is better then a broken mechanic that will be more is beneficial to only a small player subset.
It is a barrier of entry to doing PI and is a good thing. It is far too easy to either Ninja PI from a WH, or to setup PI with very little Isk in a W-Space that nets way too much Isk. Making someone have to invest in infrastructure to make Isk is a good thing.
At 100M to 150M to build and upgrade, a small corp would now have to invest 500M to Several Bil to upgrade their W-Spacew system to make PI.
As for the payback, sur paying for the structure with taxes only will probably take a long time to be proftiable, but if I HAVE to do this to make PI in w-space, then the payback is short in terms of what I can make off the planet.
|
Firanas Erin
ROC Deep Space
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:11:00 -
[568] - Quote
Awesome! So let me get this straight.
1. No more storage in the spaceport. 2. Paying ransoms for Customs offices 3. Paying taxes to players Grand total: No more isk for people who have a job!
Yeah... this is an "improvement" in the same way that herpes adds a little extra spice to your lovelife. I like the idea of player owned customs offices, but this implementation is something else. And then we have the ******-swarm screwing up the ice-trade. And 0.0-peeps whining about ore's in W-space... Just what are players supposed to do in W-space?
But at least this means i won't need 3 of my 4 accounts. I like it! |
Dawn Harbinger
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:13:00 -
[569] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
Please give sov-holders the option to allow construction of customs offices by non-alliance entities.
Should it be a choice? Hmm... it could open the door to "ninja" PI operations in 0.0. More chances for conflcit, etc.
Me like. +1 |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:13:00 -
[570] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:are you too dumb to see that?
Return amounts were talked about in a previous post.
1) If you're not large enough or don't have enough friends to be able to respond to something 24 hours in advance, you got problems. 2) Structure shoots are a bad concept, but really it has the same EHP as a small tower, it doesnt have any defenses, and it doesn't take long to reinforce at all, even with like 10-15 people. If/when they decide to change how sov structures work in terms of killing them, then yeah you can change this structure to that system, but since they have not yet thought of something this will work in the interim. 3) PI is fine for what it is, you just have no idea what you are talking about. 4) I'M NOT EMOTIONAL YOU ARE A DUMB PET.
|
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5hadow 1
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:14:00 -
[571] - Quote
Again CCP has given the SUPER CAP BLOB Alliance the upper hand.
The greif of having one is just not worth it. Supers will just RF it in 5 min or less. Come back within 24 hrs and do it again. Any smart alliance will just move all there PI with alt to high sec and avoid the grief. Price will skyrocket till the high sec alts ramp up production and the zero zero deep BOTTERS ramp up theres.
And only one custom office per planet means only the SuperCap Blob Alliances with control all the LOW SEC PI. For they will just blob any small corp or alliace who put one up. So you either pay the massive fee which they will set to discourage others from doing PI in Low Sec. So you either join the Blob alliace and become a pet or go high sec or just dont bother with it.
Thanks CCP.
|
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:19:00 -
[572] - Quote
CCP Greyscale (I hate to quote Greyscale, but here I go) wrote:http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2351
Lessons learned
- Shooting at stationary structures is boring -See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives. - Shooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior
-Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring - See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example
- Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring - See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
- Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later - See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road
- Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think - See: outposts, titans, supercarriers
- Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it - See: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort.
- People like to do one-stop shopping, and will "go to Jita" for everything unless doing so is comparatively very inconvenient - See: moon mineral distribution, high-strength booster resource distribution, neither of which achieved much in the way of the nullsec-to-nullsec trade that they hoped to encourage
"F" for homework. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:23:00 -
[573] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:are you too dumb to see that? Return amounts were talked about in a previous post. 1) If you're not large enough or don't have enough friends to be able to respond to something 24 hours in advance, you got problems. 2) Structure shoots are a bad concept, but really it has the same EHP as a small tower, it doesnt have any defenses, and it doesn't take long to reinforce at all, even with like 10-15 people. If/when they decide to change how sov structures work in terms of killing them, then yeah you can change this structure to that system, but since they have not yet thought of something this will work in the interim. 3) PI is fine for what it is, you just have no idea what you are talking about. 4) I'M NOT EMOTIONAL YOU ARE A DUMB PET.
1. so this shafts the small players/corps/allainces. tbh wont effect me, but it woudl be nice to see these groups not being punished for being small. 2. any addition structures to shoot is a bad idea. need to be moving away from shooting stuff that dosnt shoot back, its boring and mind numbing 3. ive done pi. teh first and the 2nd incarnation. and its mind numbing, its dull and its far from the vision that impressed everyone back when it was shown, look it up, population pollution all kinds of cool things, making skill books were even talked about. 4. you are in a pet alliance, didnt you get that memo? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:23:00 -
[574] - Quote
I like the changes. Become friends with local pirate corp. They don't blow you up and escort you if needed. You do PI in low sec and get out. A small fee per month covers that expense. New friends, New interaction and maby even some hair raising last minute runs out as your pirate friends jam/destroy aggressors while you get your squishy indi ship out.
I like. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:23:00 -
[575] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Bodega Cat wrote:Can the Offices be named? Oh I know the answer to this one - no you cannot name them (sorry). Also, popping my dev post cherry.
Good, maybe you can answer some of the more important questions and concerns CCP Omen blatantly ignored. Forgive me if I missed a response of his in this garbage can of posts. Reading through 550 comments is almost as much of a clickin' chore as PI itself, considering roughly 70% of them are useless responses and +1's. Sorry if I seem overly blunt about it, but I'm a tad irritated by this proposed change and the fact that it's "ready to go" despite the fact that we haven't heard jack about it until now. This is not a change you bring up after already developing it to the point of "ready to go".
My 3 biggest questions/concerns at the moment:
1. How will GCC work with this new structure? Defending it will be difficult. Someone brought up earlier that once the POCO comes out of reinforced, the attacking fleet will now be neutral to the defending fleet, putting the defenders at a disadvantage. CCP Omen said that you could potentially place one near a station(considering some stations are well within 100,000 km away from a planet). Now we have to consider station guns coming into play. Is there anything being done about this? Or is that going to be chalked up as "working as intended"? I'm fairly certain this wasn't addressed, so there needs to be some sort of minimum distance from stations so that sentries don't enter the equation.
2. We need bigger launch cans. A 500m3 launch is hardly compensation for possible tax hikes that can potentially kill the income of the "smaller guy". Believe it or not, the little guys make up a hefty amount of the PI goods supplied to the market. Some of these lone wolves manage over 30 planets at a time.
3. As far as I've seen, there is nothing being done to balance out the risk/reward factor here. The risk and cost of indulging in this new system for the smaller corporations and single players has only increased, and the only counterbalance is that we have bigger links. That's great, except bigger links only compensate the idiots who don't know how to properly set up their planets. We need more output from low security systems. The price of robotics has already doubled! There are inevitably going to be less people doing PI in low sec. They will either cease doing PI or move it to high sec. We need more incentive to continue PI in low sec, or we are going to see a sharp decrease in low sec PI return. Believe it or not, that's where a vast amount of PI on the market comes from. |
Liquidus Lamnia
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:25:00 -
[576] - Quote
The proposed change lacks economic incentive, corporate-level functionality, and managibile defenses
1) As others have pointed out, the ROI for the station cost is dismal. It will not be installed for the tax income alone.
- 0.0 Sec Corporations will not allow others to use the PCO
- Wormhole Corporations will not allow others to use the PCO
2) Enable Corporate Hangers in the PCO, this would allow for the exchange of PI between characters remotely without moving it from the PCO
- This would reduce the number of Planets needing PCOs
- The PCO owning corp would reduce tax to 0% therefore saving 5% over current taxes or more if tax is raised at NPC COs
3) Do not remove the existing NPC COs
- Increase the taxes charged by NPC COs in LS/0.0/w-space to 500% or more
- Allow them to be attacked except in HS, giving them less HP than a CPO
- Increase the capacity of the Command Center planetary ejection system to enable tax evasion.
4) Using FW and Incursion LP for BPC purchase prevents characters with less than 18 months of experience from earning them (ability to fly Macherial/Nightmare/High-End BS), provide another market.
5) As previously requested, implement the ability to access courier contracted items from a PCO, this will enable low-sec PI
6) The HP as stated is good, but the ability to mount ECM/Batteries must be included as well.
7) Currently only the following are used in other products: (P2)
- Transmitter
- Synthetic Oil
- Superconductor
- Rocket Fuel
- Miniature Electronics
- Mechanical Parts
- Coolant
- Consumer Electronics
- Construction Blocks
- Enriched Uranium
(P3)
- Guidance Systems
- Robotics
All the other P2/P3/P4 products need to be used in non-POS recipes to justify/balance PI. This needs to be addressed to increase demand and justify PCO defense risk.
8) Clarify Low-Sec requirements for attacking PCOs, is a war dec needed to avoid GCC?
For PCOs to succeed, DO NOT IMPLEMENT WITHOUT items 2, 3, and 6 |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:26:00 -
[577] - Quote
I hope everyone likes these changes also likes flying T1. Because T2 and T3 will become a lot more expensive. |
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:27:00 -
[578] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:I like the changes. Become friends with local pirate corp. They don't blow you up and escort you if needed. You do PI in low sec and get out. A small fee per month covers that expense. New friends, New interaction and maby even some hair raising last minute runs out as your pirate friends jam/destroy aggressors while you get your squishy indi ship out.
I like.
lol
why do you think pirate corps are only interested in money. Half the time I dont even bother looting what I kill and have to fight the urge to blow up corp mates haulers. |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:28:00 -
[579] - Quote
so these custom offices will be fairly easy prey to anyone that wants to knock one down. i think someone mentioned it would take a harbinger a little over 4 hours to reinforce one solo. not sure it that is correct, but based on my rough calculation at 500 dps, that sounds right.
why not allow customs offices to function more like outposts? have construction occur once, then any subsequent takeover activity will transfer control of the office but not destroy the structure. that way the initial investment doesn't go out the window every time someone wants to take it over. and those on the planet could still use the office even if they didn't control it anymore.
having to replace the office every time it is contested will be extremely costly given the slow payback on the initial capital investment. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:28:00 -
[580] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:I hope everyone likes these changes also likes flying T1. Because T2 and T3 will become a lot more expensive.
wont effect the big alliances, there moon goo will keep flowing and fund full replacment funds. only the little guy ccp loves so much will be effected CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:28:00 -
[581] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Handsome ******* wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Holy One wrote:I guess I'll just go do incursions like everyone else. Same here. I think i'll join the mass exodus from PI and start doing incursions instead. 3 more PI alts up for sale.... Confirming that my hauling/PI alt is already training for a Tengu. I did not have time to read the entire thread, can someone bring me up to speed on why people would rather waste their PI characters on another profession instead of: 1: Continuing to do PI in Empire Space, just as they always have. Granted, the fee for import/export will be 10% instead of 5% now. 2: Use the CO someone else has put up if it is in low or null sec, assuming the taxes aren't too high. 3: If those taxes are too high, or you are not allowed access, simply use the launchpad as you always could. 4: If there is no CO in place, form a small PI corp for the purposes of putting up your own CO. You may even earn extra income from the taxing of other people using those planets. Did I miss something meaningful? Or are people just throwing up their hands because they don't understand or didn't read the blog correctly? 1. I don't know why so many people think high sec PI is going to be very fruitful with a doubled tax. I blame CCP sympathizers. They don't actually know how economies work and just act like yes-men for CCP. High sec PI is already a fairly crappy chore for very little output, and continuing PI in high sec will remain an only slightly fruitful task. 2. The taxes WILL be too high. Such is the nature of any large corporation/alliance; put as much pressure on a niche as possible to exploit the market in your favor. Goonswarm is trying to do that with ice belts as we speak. Now, instead of just ice belt ganking, we're going to see a lot of POCO's we can't access or get taxed heavily on because the major alliances are going to hog them up so they can manipulate the PI market to their benefit. 3. You must be crazy to think a 500m3 launch is going to solve this problem. If they made it a 5000m3 launch, I could maybe understand. But 500? No, I'm just going to ditch my PI and find some other way to make my ISK. 4. What small PI corp is going to be able to maintain and defend that POCO? When a larger corporation decides they want the moon your small corp's POS is sitting at, what happens to that POS? It gets destroyed. The same will happen to your POCO. All you will have accomplished is wasting time, ISK, and materials to get it up and running. What incentive would people have to use your POCO when they can either hire a mercenary to blast it to bits for probably a pretty cheap fee, or just blow it up themselves? A small corp, PI or otherwise, is typically going to run during one or two time zones. It won't last very long. You missed a lot of meaningful things said in this thread. But most of them are from the people who oppose this being implemented. All I have seen so far from the people who like this idea(I've read at least 200 posts) is a bunch of bull about how people are going to work together, or how alliances and corporations will be reasonable with the taxes and standings, just a bunch of unrealistic bull****. This is EvE. If they aren't being paid, you aren't getting laid.
Fortunately, the same ill informed opinions are being regurgetated and shot down repeatedly, so I am up to speed now thanks.
1: I am well aware of the profitability of high, low, and null sec PI and have worked it to various degree's in all three environments for some time now. If you can't make a decent return on the minute amount of time necessary to maintain a PI chain, even in high sec, you are doing it wrong. It's about as close to being "passive income" as it gets, and with the ability to set taxes on planets that others will be using it gets closer still.
2: You will always run into players that value tears over good business sense. The opposite is also true. Just as null sec alliances rent space to those less powerful than themselves for a profit, so too will people set up PCO's that have reasonable tax rates for people to use. People that do not have the ISK or the desire to defend them if necessary. You can set up as many PCO's as you like, use some of them to enhance your own PI profit margin, and gain passive revenue from the rest.
3: Ninja PI teams use launches all of the time in dangerous space. Granted, CCP should probably look at increasing the payload.
4: As long as your taxes aren't out of line, why would most people care to go to the trouble. There are huge numbers of players that are not in a corp, or are in small corps that would love to use someone's PCO without risk, the hassel, or outlandish fee's. Sure, a larger corp could blow it up, but you risk that with anything in EVE. You DO realize just how many 10's of thousands of planets there are in EVE right?
So yeah, I didn't miss much. Just a lot of fear mongering, far fetched what if's about large alliances spending huge amounts of time policing 10's of thousands of planets to ensure a very modest return , and a lot of opinions from people who either didin't read or didin't understand the dev blog... or no nothing about PI or the EVE economy yet feel the need to voice an opinion.
This is EvE. If they aren't being paid, you aren't getting laid... and it's more profitable to keep your ho's working hard and take your percentage than it is to blow up the cat house. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Demon View
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:31:00 -
[582] - Quote
1. This would be less of a nerf to 'ninja PI' if you could crash materials onto the planet to be eventually collected by the CC, the reverse of the CC's launches. Maybe with a constructible 'planetary drop' container?
2. All the people worrying about long-run bad consequences from this change, remember that PI is special: PI is the feature where CCP said "hey, let's have this team stick around and keep improving this". And this isn't the first major update to PI since it was released. So if badness comes to pass wrt. PI, we can actually expect a fix sooner than two years from now. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:32:00 -
[583] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
Time to revisit the viceroy idea perhaps |
Lolmer
Merciless Reckoning
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:36:00 -
[584] - Quote
Also, can you see what the tax rate is of the Customs Office for each planet before you take your Command Center out there to deploy? I'd hate to get everything ready to go, only to show up and find the tax rate is high, or even worse, build my CC, design my routes, and then find the tax rate to be high when I go to take my PI out, or yet even worse unable to do so because I do not have access to the CO.
The more I think about it, the more I do not like the idea of denying access to a public property (planet, owned by CONCORD in all but null-sec and w-space). Change the access rights based on standing to a tax rate based on standing and all's good. I'll still be able to get stuff out of any planet, but will just have to pay an exorbitant amount of ISK to get it out, especially if the owner changes hands to someone who really doesn't like me. |
Blue Harrier
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:36:00 -
[585] - Quote
Umm can I ask a small question here?
I can see how all this works/not works (depends on your point of view) in Empire, Low Sec and 0.0 but how will this work in NPC 0.0, you know like, Syndicate, Outer Ring etc?
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Frakir Shedimuthgur
Vacation Spot
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:37:00 -
[586] - Quote
Sooo... let me see if I get it: No one can have Sov in a WH. However, you can now block (or at lest severely restrict) access to the planets in a WH using structures... HMMM. Also, give big alliances another easy way to make money... HMMM. I can see absolutely no way those changes will backfire massively, none at all, no sir. |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:38:00 -
[587] - Quote
reserved |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:44:00 -
[588] - Quote
Frakir Shedimuthgur wrote:Sooo... let me see if I get it: No one can have Sov in a WH. However, you can now block (or at lest severely restrict) access to the planets in a WH using structures... HMMM. Also, give big alliances another easy way to make money... HMMM. I can see absolutely no way those changes will backfire massively, none at all, no sir.
Reminds me on POS-alchemy, anyone remember that failure? Only when this goes down, a good part of the eve economy will also fail. |
Demon View
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:44:00 -
[589] - Quote
Liquidus Lamnia wrote:4) Using FW and Incursion LP for BPC purchase prevents characters with less than 18 months of experience from earning them (ability to fly Macherial/Nightmare/High-End BS),
Uh, no. They're 3000 LP for FW. I can make more than that with one trip in a T1 frig doing L1 militia missions. |
Firanas Erin
ROC Deep Space
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:45:00 -
[590] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
Those already exist, they are called pirate corporations... You know, like the ******-swarm "protecting" people who mine ice... |
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Memoocan
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:45:00 -
[591] - Quote
Omen...nobody in Wspace will operate for neutrals. The idea that people won't shoot PI runners same as before in hopes of some tiny profit is naive
Frakir Shedimuthgur wrote:Sooo... let me see if I get it: No one can have Sov in a WH. However, you can now block (or at lest severely restrict) access to the planets in a WH using structures... HMMM. Also, give big alliances another easy way to make money... HMMM. I can see absolutely no way those changes will backfire massively, none at all, no sir.
lawl this makes it better in wspace. Now it's free so idk what you're whining about. Before this, you can still "severely restrict" access by sticking a CC down and nuking all the resources on the planet if you want. Or you can gank the hauler. Or any number of other things.
Wspace is lawless so thinking you will have full access to any system you come across is a bit ignorant |
5hadow 1
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:47:00 -
[592] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc. Time to revisit the viceroy idea perhaps
hahahahahahahahaahahhaahhahaha- OMG - CCP hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
Really? You are a Wolf in a Sheep Skin. You say you want to help industry players. You say you wanted PI to be helpful to all. PI is just fine as it is. Adding just a base tax that cant be modified to help SOV owners is good.
But we hold SOV. A big Blob Alliace now doesn't have to take SOV, they just have to pimp smaller SOV holders. Just Come in our system and blow up our Customs Office. Red Blob puts up there own and put a tax of 50 to 100 percent. If we attack it they will just blob us up if we touch it. Please get your head out your Locker CCP Omen. By this comment you have never been on the recieving side of a NCDot / Raiden Super Cap Blob. Please wake up mate. |
Trespasser
Isotope Incorporated Exiled Collective
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:49:00 -
[593] - Quote
Of all the things that need to be done to PI this is not it.
Leave High sec and wormholes alone and make customs offices become taxable to the alliance that owns the system.
But before all of that, how about we get the option to select all our factory's at once and set them?
why dont we have drop down box for the link upgrade we want?
Why is there a session timer on PI?
Pos fuel is already high, this will only make it even more so as most small and medium sized gangs will just cruise around blowing them up
Leave it be and make PI on the planet less ******** |
Xintri Ra'Virr
Six Kin Mining and Development Group
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:52:00 -
[594] - Quote
someone wrote:
1. I don't know why so many people think high sec PI is going to be very fruitful with a doubled tax. I blame CCP sympathizers. They don't actually know how economies work and just act like yes-men for CCP. High sec PI is already a fairly crappy chore for very little output, and continuing PI in high sec will remain an only slightly fruitful task.
2. The taxes WILL be too high. Such is the nature of any large corporation/alliance; put as much pressure on a niche as possible to exploit the market in your favor. Goonswarm is trying to do that with ice belts as we speak. Now, instead of just ice belt ganking, we're going to see a lot of POCO's we can't access or get taxed heavily on because the major alliances are going to hog them up so they can manipulate the PI market to their benefit.
3. You must be crazy to think a 500m3 launch is going to solve this problem. If they made it a 5000m3 launch, I could maybe understand. But 500? No, I'm just going to ditch my PI and find some other way to make my ISK.
4. What small PI corp is going to be able to maintain and defend that POCO? When a larger corporation decides they want the moon your small corp's POS is sitting at, what happens to that POS? It gets destroyed. The same will happen to your POCO. All you will have accomplished is wasting time, ISK, and materials to get it up and running. What incentive would people have to use your POCO when they can either hire a mercenary to blast it to bits for probably a pretty cheap fee, or just blow it up themselves? A small corp, PI or otherwise, is typically going to run during one or two time zones. It won't last very long.
You missed a lot of meaningful things said in this thread. But most of them are from the people who oppose this being implemented. All I have seen so far from the people who like this idea(I've read at least 200 posts) is a bunch of bull about how people are going to work together, or how alliances and corporations will be reasonable with the taxes and standings, just a bunch of unrealistic bull****.
This is EvE. If they aren't being paid, you aren't getting laid.
1. Some planets in low have 80% richness in specific mineral. You will never find that in hi. 2. 100% tax will scare off any competitor. Tax is calculated from item units. Low Tier PI will kill you. 3. I't takes 23 hours to make 5000-8000m3 of Tier 2 products in lowsec. 4. Yup you are propably right. |
Inappropriate Euphemism
Probability Directive
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:53:00 -
[595] - Quote
I am typically a big fan of changes that increase player interaction and risk. I like the idea of where this change is going. I don't profess to know with certainty the results of the change, but I think that my own PI will be drastically and negatively affected.
I primarily produce P2 products, though I do have one planet producing P3 products. I do PI in low-sec where there aren't a lot of other residents. I expect that if I don't put up a customs office of my own, none will exist. While I have the capability to do this, it's a fairly big investment for the risk I'm undertaking. I live near null-sec and there are a few big alliances nearby; at least one is a very notable alliance with a large supercap fleet and reputation for using them for everything except sov warfare. Never underestimate the will of players to do something just to ruin another player's day -- especially if that player is a combat pilot and the other player is an industrialist or a "carebear".
I don't think the planets I use are housing facilities for any other players; I used the "see structures from other players" feature to see who else might be there, and no new structures appear -- but I kind of figured it was just broken. So there is really very little benefit to offset the risk as nobody will be paying me anything.
I can't find enough information on rocket launches to know if it's a viable alternative -- I see lots of references to a small capacity which suggests to me it's not.
Low-sec has always been a good place for small groups of industrialists who are good at evading criminals. It's been the half-way house between high-sec safety and null-sec politics. There are no warp disruption bubbles. There are gate guns and global criminal countdown timers. There are NPC stations. This change kind of drops low-sec PI into the deep end of risk with null-sec without offering any additional reward -- null-sec planets are better than low-sec planets.
I've seen it suggested in the thread already, but why couldn't CONCORD sponsor the low-sec customs offices (or perhaps the NPC faction which holds sovereignty in that space) with the same tax rate as high-sec until a player comes along to take over and build a customs office? Barring that, at least make rocket launches competitive with customs offices in high-sec in capability and rates. |
gfldex
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:54:00 -
[596] - Quote
VaMei wrote:With the BPC only comming from the FW & Concord LP stores, we're going to need some serious time to get the supply chain filled with enough units to meet the early demand.
I have 700kLP with concord right now. Have me a mail, I can set you up.
|
Leocadminone
Gem Concordance
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 21:58:00 -
[597] - Quote
Where is the justification for DOUBLE the damned taxes on Concord-run custom offices? Failing to see how that does anything but SHAFT folks that run PI and those that make stuff out of PI-made items and those that USE such items. PI return on time investment in highsec it ALREADY poor-to-marginal, why do you want to make it even worse?
Blueprint copy availability is WAY to damned restrictive. ANY NPC CORP should have them available in their LP store.
Oooo, space increase - like how do you manage to have to worry about running out of space in a customs office when your launchpad can only store 10K m3 max? THAT chance is no benefit at all and makes ZERO sense to even claim to be a benefit.
With the "you can kill them now" factor what idiot would LEAVE anything in one more than a few seconds while unloading stuff from / loading stuff to a planet?
This seems to be "YET ANOTHER NOT THOUGHT OUT" concept from CCP that just screws players for NO benefit.
I am now VERY happy I've been working my way OUT of doing PI due to the already poor ratio of "time investment vs. profit".
As far as that "minute amount of time" comment - you still have to go COLLECT the stuff and get it sold. The time investment is NOT minute, though I grant it's small - but the profits also are small. You also are failing to take the time investment of FINDING and SETUP for even a "marginal" planet to do PI on into account.
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Frakir Shedimuthgur
Vacation Spot
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:01:00 -
[598] - Quote
Memoocan wrote:Omen...nobody in Wspace will operate for neutrals. I dare say no one will operate for neutrals... period
Memoocan wrote:Before this, you can still "severely restrict" access by sticking a CC down and nuking all the resources on the planet if you want. Or you can gank the hauler. Or any number of other things. All of which require active involvement. planting a CC and nuking resources is both time consuming and requires some money to do. Catching the hauler mean you have to be online to do it.
POCO is just a fire and forget type of thing. |
Agente
Milking Interstellar Incorporated.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:03:00 -
[599] - Quote
For the ones that are worried about the taxes, with the prices that we have today, a 100% tax is around 1% of the product value, so tahts not going to be a problem.
Access to the PCO and return of the investment in the PCO will be the problem. |
gfldex
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:05:00 -
[600] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:The problem with a HP-only target is that you can drop a bob on the CO, reinforce it in 5 minutes, and move on. Plus, the HP is large enough to discourage small gang activity.
It's basically a large POS without any hardeners. Have 5 dreads for 5 minutes and the job is done. What exactly do you want to have a blob for?
|
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:07:00 -
[601] - Quote
Leocadminone wrote:Where is the justification for DOUBLE the damned taxes on Concord-run custom offices? Failing to see how that does anything but SHAFT folks that run PI and those that make stuff out of PI-made items and those that USE such items. PI return on time investment in highsec it ALREADY poor-to-marginal, why do you want to make it even worse?
Blueprint copy availability is WAY to damned restrictive. ANY NPC CORP should have them available in their LP store.
Oooo, space increase - like how do you manage to have to worry about running out of space in a customs office when your launchpad can only store 10K m3 max? THAT chance is no benefit at all and makes ZERO sense to even claim to be a benefit.
With the "you can kill them now" factor what idiot would LEAVE anything in one more than a few seconds while unloading stuff from / loading stuff to a planet?
This seems to be "YET ANOTHER NOT THOUGHT OUT" concept from CCP that just screws players for NO benefit.
I am now VERY happy I've been working my way OUT of doing PI due to the already poor ratio of "time investment vs. profit".
As far as that "minute amount of time" comment - you still have to go COLLECT the stuff and get it sold. The time investment is NOT minute, though I grant it's small - but the profits also are small. You also are failing to take the time investment of FINDING and SETUP for even a "marginal" planet to do PI on into account.
Somehow, I don't find the hour or so to set up a PI chain the first time... or the 10 minutes it takes to hop over and collect the goods... to be a a major time sink.
A couple of other points to address your concerns.
A size increase is actually pretty handy for high sec, I guess you forgot about that area.
If your costs go up by 5%, so will your selling price.
Perhaps YOU should think things out a bit more. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:07:00 -
[602] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Chicken Pizza wrote:stuff Fortunately, the same ill informed opinions are being regurgetated and shot down repeatedly, so I am up to speed now thanks. 1: I am well aware of the profitability of high, low, and null sec PI and have worked it to various degree's in all three environments for some time now. If you can't make a decent return on the minute amount of time necessary to maintain a PI chain, even in high sec, you are doing it wrong. It's about as close to being "passive income" as it gets, and with the ability to set taxes on planets that others will be using it gets closer still. 2: You will always run into players that value tears over good business sense. The opposite is also true. Just as null sec alliances rent space to those less powerful than themselves for a profit, so too will people set up PCO's that have reasonable tax rates for people to use. People that do not have the ISK or the desire to defend them if necessary. You can set up as many PCO's as you like, use some of them to enhance your own PI profit margin, and gain passive revenue from the rest. 3: Ninja PI teams use launches all of the time in dangerous space. Granted, CCP should probably look at increasing the payload. 4: As long as your taxes aren't out of line, why would most people care to go to the trouble. There are huge numbers of players that are not in a corp, or are in small corps that would love to use someone's PCO without risk, the hassel, or outlandish fee's. Sure, a larger corp could blow it up, but you risk that with anything in EVE. You DO realize just how many 10's of thousands of planets there are in EVE right? So yeah, I didn't miss much. Just a lot of fear mongering, far fetched what if's about large alliances spending huge amounts of time policing 10's of thousands of planets to ensure a very modest return , and a lot of opinions from people who either didin't read or didin't understand the dev blog... or no nothing about PI or the EVE economy yet feel the need to voice an opinion. This is EvE. If they aren't being paid, you aren't getting laid... and it's more profitable to keep your ho's working hard and take your percentage than it is to blow up the cat house.
1. The term "decent" is extremely subjective, as is my "slightly fruitful". I don't know what you consider "decent", but we apparently don't see eye-to-eye on that note. High sec is fairly well known for having a relatively low output in comparison to, I don't know, everything else.
2. That is redundant and contradictory. Obviously, there are both types of players. However, many times, an alliance is too busy waging war or defending their own home front to actually help renters defend their areas. So, they're often left to fend for themselves against gangs and whatnot. This is a completely different game mechanic that has nothing to do with sovereignty in terms of low sec, and thus, cannot be compared to such a thing. You must not get much interaction with other players if you think a corporation or alliance is going to successfully hold a POCO with the intention of making everyone happy. No, they are going to hike the taxes up to make ISK. It costed ISK to make that POCO, and they want that ISK back some time next year.
3. They certainly do, but that is a very small niche of players, and thus, is fairly inconsequential.
4. You do realize you forgot to subtract the number of potentially useless planets, right? The number of USEFUL planets is much, much lower than that.
There are no cats in EvE, silly. |
Boredom Incarnate
Boredom Incorporated
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:08:00 -
[603] - Quote
So when this change happens can I redistribute all the SPs invested in Planetary Interaction that will no longer be useful? |
Helothane
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:09:00 -
[604] - Quote
So those who belong to an NPC corp cannot extract from planets in low sec, unless someone else has set up a customs office at that planet and allows other corps to use it? If the player can't have roles, then he/she cannot set up a customs office.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:11:00 -
[605] - Quote
Was there any consideration given to having automated defences akin to POS's? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
182
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:15:00 -
[606] - Quote
5hadow 1 wrote:Again CCP has given the SUPER CAP BLOB Alliance the upper hand.
The greif of having one is just not worth it. Supers will just RF it in 5 min or less. Come back within 24 hrs and do it again. Any smart alliance will just move all there PI with alt to high sec and avoid the grief. Price will skyrocket till the high sec alts ramp up production and the zero zero deep BOTTERS ramp up theres.
And only one custom office per planet means only the SuperCap Blob Alliances with control all the LOW SEC PI. For they will just blob any small corp or alliace who put one up. So you either pay the massive fee which they will set to discourage others from doing PI in Low Sec. So you either join the Blob alliace and become a pet or go high sec or just dont bother with it.
This is the kind of logic that breaks down almost immediately.
What benefit is it for an Alliance to run around nuking POCO's, and than setting up their own, than blocking people out??
Why do you think its fun for them to own a dead planet?
Why do you think all alliances want to even bother with PI??
The price to build one is intentional - there should be a calculated economic advantage to owning one. "Lone Wolfs" will find it difficult to justify the cost. This is rightfully so. Lone wolfs will find it difficult to defend one, this is rightfully so. The game is not designed for lone wolfs. Lone wolfs can find niche work, but the game should not be designed around providing solo players with plenty of training wheels to survive.
The system is set up for a number of possible scenarios - First, an entity could jack taxes up so high as to "shut out" other players (or block based on standings) . The ONLY advantage to this, is if you plan on maximizing the productive capability of that planet - in other words you better have dozens of corp members with colonies on that planet, and you want to squeeze every last drop from it. If you can't do this, there is NO incentive to spending 100 mil and bothering to defend it. if you do have this extraction capability, great, you deserve a chance to fight to own it all.
The other scenario, which is much more likely, is that taxation will merely increase to make ownership profitable. This is COUNTER to the idea of locking people out, because you are encouraging people to take up space on the planet. "but i've done some fancy math and the income sux" doesnt cut it here. Players will find the tipping point - where you can extract maximum taxes, without driving people to neigboring planets. This slumlord competition is great, and exactly what a gravytrain easy production system like PI needs. But it wont "kill" PI, it'll just make you choose more carefully.
The final scenario is simple - the owner is benevolent, and will price the PI for free for its allowed inhabitants, whether they be friendlies or the general public. Plenty of alliances have maintained or tried to maintain "safe zones" even in dangerous places, and the same will be true in lowsec. Notice CCP is jacking up higsec taxes - this provides incentives for players to actually entice other players out to lowsec / nullsec by providing a CHEAPER place to do PI, not more expensive.
And If you're a benevolent slumlord providing duty-free PI, than your inhabitants will have a stake in defending their colony on your planet. You may find your planet becomes a popular place to work, and your chances of having a deeper pool to draw on for POCO defense go way up. If your occupants are too lazy to defend their duty-free, lucrative planet, they don't deserve the privilege of being there in the first place.
However you look at it - profiting off players, seizing it yourself, or giving it away, all provide an excellent mix of motivations, gameplay opportunities, and it forces people to get to know their neighbors and work together. Win, win, win.
I totally hate the fact that I've done PI every day in lowsec in its release, and its been COMPLETELY safe. Never have I been ganked, never have I had issues with encroaching colonies, and I don't even care who else is on the planets right now. This lack of danger, lack of socialization, lack of challenge, is completely bullshit. I embrace the fact that there is finally a way to make PI social, competitive, and dynamic.
Think outside the box, make friends, push yourself to the limit. You guys can get through this - stop complaining, start getting creative, start forming your network to save your planet. This is not the end of the world. |
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:15:00 -
[607] - Quote
Helothane wrote:So those who belong to an NPC corp cannot extract from planets in low sec, unless someone else has set up a customs office at that planet and allows other corps to use it? If the player can't have roles, then he/she cannot set up a customs office.
I dunno you could like use the launch pad and rocket the stuff up?
C.
|
Helothane
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:18:00 -
[608] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Helothane wrote:So those who belong to an NPC corp cannot extract from planets in low sec, unless someone else has set up a customs office at that planet and allows other corps to use it? If the player can't have roles, then he/she cannot set up a customs office.
I dunno you could like use the launch pad and rocket the stuff up? C.
As mentioned before, that is very limited in terms of volume. There is a timer after you launch before you can do so again, and it isn't trivial. |
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:19:00 -
[609] - Quote
Helothane wrote:So those who belong to an NPC corp cannot extract from planets in low sec, unless someone else has set up a customs office at that planet and allows other corps to use it? If the player can't have roles, then he/she cannot set up a customs office.
CCP already answered this.
Dev said start a one man corp or stay in high sec
:( not saying its a good answer just an answer from the new ccp that listens to use, told only csm about this in august, and is trying to repair its rep with this in time for christmas. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
161
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:20:00 -
[610] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Appreciate the feedback. It's a tough nut, we have some ideas for the future, so hopefully, while there are no protection, those fights will be relatively isolated to particular systems in space. The value dynamic is very interesting, if alliances terrorize customs offices, there will be fewer around and the prices go up so bigger incentives to set one up again and protect it.
Well, this certainly does look like a very nice boost to null sec industry.
There is a snowball's chance in hell of any system without a cyno jammer being able to keep customs offices alive now. Bored super cap pilots will simply chew them up the same way bored dogs chew your favourite shoes.
|
|
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
192
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:26:00 -
[611] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:This is the kind of logic that breaks down almost immediately.
What benefit is it for an Alliance to run around nuking POCO's, and than setting up their own, than blocking people out??
Why do you think its fun for them to own a dead planet?
Because some of us are jerks and think it'd be hilarious to block people from using any and all planets, even if they're just an adorable little newbie, and even if we don't see any return for it.
Bienvenidos a EVE Online. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
107
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:26:00 -
[612] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Appreciate the feedback. It's a tough nut, we have some ideas for the future, so hopefully, while there are no protection, those fights will be relatively isolated to particular systems in space. The value dynamic is very interesting, if alliances terrorize customs offices, there will be fewer around and the prices go up so bigger incentives to set one up again and protect it. Well, this certainly does look like a very nice boost to null sec industry. There is a snowball's chance in hell of any system without a cyno jammer being able to keep customs offices alive now. Bored super cap pilots will simply chew them up the same way bored dogs chew your favourite shoes.
well as they made them worthless for anything but shooting structures in the last blog, they had to amke more structures for them to shoot i guess. welcome to eve, become a super cap pilot and shoot pi buildings.. CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Jada Maroo
Mysterium Astrometrics BRABODEN
278
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:27:00 -
[613] - Quote
I would double the hitpoints. Destructability is fine, but it needs to not be something done simply for lulz. It's already causing a huge disturbance in the PI market. |
Lolmer
Merciless Reckoning
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:27:00 -
[614] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES!
1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running.
2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own.
The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes!
C'mon CCP... THINK on this!
And remove the CONCORD tax on the Customs Offices in w-space, CONCORD has no power there, so bugger off. Though, on this topic, there should be no Customs Offices in w-space. I mean, who put them there? :) Instead you'll have to manufacture your own and just set +5 or +10 or better standings only with a 0% tax and you're good to go. |
Danny Centauri
Baltic Eagle
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:28:00 -
[615] - Quote
As some one heavily involved in the use of POS I have already seen my fuel bill climb massively, yet I still welcome these changes. Now I have a reason to use those characters with PI skills all the carebears dropping out leaving the profit for me. Back end system in the ass end of no where here I come.
Loving watching the market reaction we should have one of these every couple of days to keep everyone guessing, almost as amusing as filling insanely high buy orders when we got free aurum. These changes will definately make for an interesting T2 market the low end materials prices will drive up massively as the margin as already extremely narrow.
Looking forward to this, hope its in the winter release thanks CCP. POS FUEL THE NEW DYSPO, and guess what its everywhere! |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
183
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:29:00 -
[616] - Quote
Pat Irvam wrote: :( not saying its a good answer just an answer from the new ccp that listens to use, told only csm about this in august, and is trying to repair its rep with this in time for christmas.
The devs have talked about this from day one. There was ALWAYS talk of a space elevator, that controlled resource access, that would be ownable, and fought over. It wasn't implemented first time around, and everyone complained PI was complete carebear bullshit, with nothing competitive in the slightest way. They said from the beginning that reason to fight over resources would set the stage for Dust 514, and this is nothing but a long overdue iteration that has always been talked about and public information.
Devs arent fleecing anyone. They're giving everyone the iteration on PI that has been promised, and begged for a year now, and *GASP* now people are bitching that they've finally done it. It just has a fancy name so people have ignorantly acted like this is some shocker suprise designed to destroy the pain-free activity they've grown accustomed to. This is extremely typical of the forums - players beg for a feature, than moan when they finally get it. Grow up everyone. You have to get off the nipple and onto solid foods eventually.
Eve will always evolve. It will always get more challenging. It will ALWAYS go in the direction of handing more control over to players. Anyone not cool with that fundamental design element, should invest in a different game.
|
Darkdood
Estrale Frontiers
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:29:00 -
[617] - Quote
I'm undecided as to weather this is good or bad but I have some serious concerns.
Problem 1 - Someone pointed out that this seems to be a nerf to the little guy and a buff to the big corps/alliances. Which is probably true.
Answer 1 - Sense the large alliances are far better equipped to handle such a change I think a phased roll out is in order. Implement this in 0.0 FIRST. Then move it to lowsec a month or two later once you work out the kinks.
Problem 2 - The idea that we can function in any meaningful way when cut off from the customs office is silly. We do not have the ability to import to the planet.
Answer 2 - You have to give us some method to import to the planet no matter how gimped or costly. This solution needs to be in place before you do anything. Certainly before you move this idea into lowsec.
Problem 3 - With this type of combat oriented setup people will be forced to move far more often. The cost of not only the Customs office but in taking down and rebuilding your command center will be outrageous.
Answer 3 - Lower the cost of command center upgrades slightly. |
Alain Kinsella
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:31:00 -
[618] - Quote
On the one side, the POS fuel I'm making in Empire (using three extracting planets) will be a better passive income, even after subtracting any donations requested. Thank you.
On the other side, there's no interest anymore in my scouting out and scanning a single Low planet in order to optimize my production. Would have been nice to know that earlier, but I have other ways to compensate. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Limitless Inc.
171
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:32:00 -
[619] - Quote
First implementation from CCP I actually feel positive about, for quite some while.
Extra tax in highsec, all rest destructible seems like the perfect balance for this imho. Looking promising. this is a signature |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:32:00 -
[620] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
This is the kind of logic that breaks down almost immediately.
What benefit is it for an Alliance to run around nuking POCO's, and than setting up their own, than blocking people out??
Why do you think its fun for them to own a dead planet?
Why do you think all alliances want to even bother with PI??
1. They will run around and block other people and destroy their POCOs for the lulz, becaus they are bored and because they can, that is the main reason for almost anything in EVE and fail to see your optimisim why it should be different this time.
2, Why take sovereignity in a low quality-dead end system with no useful moon stuff. Because they can take it and they want to someone else from taking it.
3. Because they need fuel for their own POS, but even if they don't, someone or something neutral = target = killmail |
|
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:33:00 -
[621] - Quote
I love how they're gonna roll out with this anyway even though so many possible game breaking mechanics were brought up.
And as for the people saying that alliances won't blockade planets, they already do this with asteroid belts. I don't see any difference between protecting your ore from ninja 0.0 miners and the soon-to-be-extinct ninja PI person. They are protecting there assets, like any large alliance would. As for customs offices in low-sec space, there needs to be a low-sec alliance that is willing to open their customs office to the public for a reasonable price (when compared to lower high-sec taxes vs. more low-sec resources). To be blunt, I know of no alliance that lives in low-sec that is willing to let random people come in to do PI. I'm not sure people know, but standings with these alliances cost ISK...lots of ISK if they are good/famous. SO, unless you want to make smaller corps/alliances drop around 2-3 BILLION ISK in order to do PI in low-sec, then yeah, sure, this patch is especially for the little guys....
...CCP. Ruining their own game since 2005... |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
97
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:33:00 -
[622] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:You gota flip your picture port around. Your Dev banner covers your entire face
Probably for the best.[/quote]
You kinda look like the Blade Runner Dude (Not Han Solo )
Blade Runner Dude NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
gnome proper
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:33:00 -
[623] - Quote
Ehm... Wow?
Thanks for finally adding some harassment/small gang targets.
That's about 7 years late.
Seriously, this is good stuff and should provide some interesting dynamics. |
YuuKnow
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:36:00 -
[624] - Quote
I like the plan! Here are my concerns/requests.
1. 20mil isk and 6000 LP points seems a bit too low of an startup investment cost for the potential lucrativeness of these stations. We are essentially talking about a money making machine so I would support a higher startup cost, lets say 80-100mil and 20000 LP points. This would also be a new isk sink which the game desperately needs. The higher startup cost necessitate that the stations be more durable however.
2. Now that there are player own custom offices then the next step would be the ability to form individual contracts with other corps or other players for different tax rates. It could be made on a individual corp to corp basis (or player to player basis) or even a variable tax rate based off standings so that the owning corp of the station can set different favorable standings for different corps/individuals to allow them different tax rates. This would allow corporations to establish agreements between corps/pilots for exclusive mining rights and encourages more corporate-to-corporate or corporate-to-player interaction. More politics and more interaction = more fun.
3. If contracts were possible then it would be nice if planet resources weren't depleted as quickly they are currently. When resources are more durable then contracts would be more meaningful and more lasting in that they have more political and financial weight. It would also grant more incentive to establish contracts in the first place and use the customs offices. Perhaps the customs office would have scanning that will find the 'deep planetary core' resources that ship scanners could not find and thus will be able to setup PI in the larger/longer lasting resource deposites (the ones that simple individual ship scanning can't find). The RL analogy would be the difference between a small individually owned oil dereck and a large corp-owned off-shore-fishing platform.
4. Customs offices could have onboard scanners that can detect launched cargo from the planet (in order to detect PI that is not going through the customs offices). This will allow them to setup "hits" on players not using their office (ie a secret call to a mercenary to 'hit' a cargo drop).
5. The cargo space needed to haul one of these out to space seems a bit low. It should take at least 4-5 trips for a indy or one large trip for a freighter to set up a station. This will require that the a coordinated effort between the corp (a dedicated hauler and armed escort) to set up the station. Or perhaps the station could be 'jumped in' with the use of a NPC bought cynosural field for customs offices. Players would buy the field emitter in the market from NPCs at the cost of 300mil isk apiece, but save the player the hauling duty. Alternatively players would need the freighter to haul the equipment to the planet (but the cost would be lower at 80-100mil isk as above).
6. The current customs stations look so boring. The graphics are bland and they have no imagination to there design. Can we have better looking stations? How about a variety in the design with each design having strenghts and weaknessess (for example a Minmatar design vs a Gallente Design).
My 2isk
yk |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
76
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:38:00 -
[625] - Quote
there's something that would calm a lot of people who fear this change, and that must have been told already ; allow a way to transfer ressources to the owner of the CO. a shared hangar that only people able to manage the CO can access, and where anyone can send things. so people on prospection planets can easily send their stuff to the hangar for people running factory planet to get them, or to the landlord who will do the hauling himself. a way to make the transfer for a fee would be nice.
imagine this ; player A want to make money with extraction of PI, he have the skills, but can't handle hauling stuff from low/null. player B is member of the CO owner corp. he lives here and so can easily haul things out, or use these on place. he's pretty interested by buying things from player A. but currently, and even with the change you talk about it would be a pain to do it. meaning there's good chance player A will never do it with the current system. but if as i talked about some hangar functionnality was added...
people are scared because lots of people use PI alone, without the help of a big corp. if you add a way to transfer the stuff to someone else without being here, then these guys won't be scared that much, cause they will still be able to do it, and it's someone else who will bother with the rest, and he will have another reason to do it ; not only will he get taxes, but he can also got more money by buying directly the stuff for cheap, and doing the logistics himself |
Pat Irvam
15 Minute Outliers Chained Reactions
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:39:00 -
[626] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pat Irvam wrote: :( not saying its a good answer just an answer from the new ccp that listens to use, told only csm about this in august, and is trying to repair its rep with this in time for christmas.
The devs have talked about this from day one. There was ALWAYS talk of a space elevator, that controlled resource access, that would be ownable, and fought over. It wasn't implemented first time around, and everyone complained PI was complete carebear bullshit, with nothing competitive in the slightest way. They said from the beginning that reason to fight over resources would set the stage for Dust 514, and this is nothing but a long overdue iteration that has always been talked about and public information. Devs arent fleecing anyone. They're giving everyone the iteration on PI that has been promised, and begged for a year now, and *GASP* now people are bitching that they've finally done it. It just has a fancy name so people have ignorantly acted like this is some shocker suprise designed to destroy the pain-free activity they've grown accustomed to. This is extremely typical of the forums - players beg for a feature, than moan when they finally get it. Grow up everyone. You have to get off the nipple and onto solid foods eventually. Eve will always evolve. It will always get more challenging. It will ALWAYS go in the direction of handing more control over to players. Anyone not cool with that fundamental design element, should invest in a different game.
Never said I didn't like the feature. I dislike ccp saying we thinking of this then after negative comments saying well this is how it is, its already done for deployment. This could have severe impacts on the economy and ccp has not sampled a large enough player base. Most of csm are use to alliance null not low sec or wormholes. This has a ripple effect that ccp needs to consider with a more conservative deployment. Saying that we will fix it if we break pos fuels is not good enough given their track record on iterations. Hell they have made the assumption that people wont blow em up for luls or lock out worthless planets or be nice and give neutrals reasonable access in null and wh space. This is eve and most of us are ass holes. CCP not understanbding this speaks volumes of how they have planed this to play out ie they have no clue. |
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:42:00 -
[627] - Quote
Inappropriate Euphemism wrote:I am typically a big fan of changes that increase player interaction and risk. I like the idea of where this change is going. I don't profess to know with certainty the results of the change, but I think that my own PI will be drastically and negatively affected.
I primarily produce P2 products, though I do have one planet producing P3 products. I do PI in low-sec where there aren't a lot of other residents. I expect that if I don't put up a customs office of my own, none will exist. While I have the capability to do this, it's a fairly big investment for the risk I'm undertaking. I live near null-sec and there are a few big alliances nearby; at least one is a very notable alliance with a large supercap fleet and reputation for using them for everything except sov warfare. Never underestimate the will of players to do something just to ruin another player's day -- especially if that player is a combat pilot and the other player is an industrialist or a "carebear".
I don't think the planets I use are housing facilities for any other players; I used the "see structures from other players" feature to see who else might be there, and no new structures appear -- but I kind of figured it was just broken. So there is really very little benefit to offset the risk as nobody will be paying me anything.
I can't find enough information on rocket launches to know if it's a viable alternative -- I see lots of references to a small capacity which suggests to me it's not.
Low-sec has always been a good place for small groups of industrialists who are good at evading criminals. It's been the half-way house between high-sec safety and null-sec politics. There are no warp disruption bubbles. There are gate guns and global criminal countdown timers. There are NPC stations. This change kind of drops low-sec PI into the deep end of risk with null-sec without offering any additional reward -- null-sec planets are better than low-sec planets.
I've seen it suggested in the thread already, but why couldn't CONCORD sponsor the low-sec customs offices (or perhaps the NPC faction which holds sovereignty in that space) with the same tax rate as high-sec until a player comes along to take over and build a customs office? Barring that, at least make rocket launches competitive with customs offices in high-sec in capability and rates.
This needs to get highlighted and commented on by the dev's
You are in a rare but important minority of someone in low sec actually making your living. Its your game down there (and you are not just a ninja) so its important that they take into consideration what you need to not only just continue to thrive, but maybe even prosper more if you are good at what you do.
Hopefully what you suggest is appreciated, and considered. A default concord station for all low sec systems for this purpose.
|
Amro One
One.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:42:00 -
[628] - Quote
I see all these people complaining about the CO being attacked.
Earth to all, they just normal Small Lab POSs sitting at a moon called a planet.
Mind boggling I know.
Thank you CCP for Buffing War Dec'ing options.
P.S. - Will all you illiterate player read the damn blog at least 5 times before making comments. As CCP CLEARLY, yes CLEARLY, says everything you need to know. |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:46:00 -
[629] - Quote
Welcome back to taxation without representation. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:48:00 -
[630] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pat Irvam wrote: :( not saying its a good answer just an answer from the new ccp that listens to use, told only csm about this in august, and is trying to repair its rep with this in time for christmas.
The devs have talked about this from day one. There was ALWAYS talk of a space elevator, that controlled resource access, that would be ownable, and fought over. It wasn't implemented first time around, and everyone complained PI was complete carebear bullshit, with nothing competitive in the slightest way. They said from the beginning that reason to fight over resources would set the stage for Dust 514, and this is nothing but a long overdue iteration that has always been talked about and public information. Devs arent fleecing anyone. They're giving everyone the iteration on PI that has been promised, and begged for a year now, and *GASP* now people are bitching that they've finally done it. It just has a fancy name so people have ignorantly acted like this is some shocker suprise designed to destroy the pain-free activity they've grown accustomed to. This is extremely typical of the forums - players beg for a feature, than moan when they finally get it. Grow up everyone. You have to get off the nipple and onto solid foods eventually. Eve will always evolve. It will always get more challenging. It will ALWAYS go in the direction of handing more control over to players. Anyone not cool with that fundamental design element, should invest in a different game.
No, everyone didn't beg for this feature. Everyone didn't beg for PI competition. SOME people wanted it. SOME people didn't. I don't know where you get off making the assumption that I wanted PI to change in the least and now am contradicting myself. I never supported a change like this from the start. Maybe you should re-evaluate your information on who wanted this and who didn't. |
|
Jada Maroo
Mysterium Astrometrics BRABODEN
278
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:49:00 -
[631] - Quote
As so sort of balancing factor it'd be nice if the command center capacity were expanded to 2000m3 and could launch as much. It's still "slow boat" PI but allow for some less productive but more ninja-like PI. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:49:00 -
[632] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:Welcome back to taxation without representation.
God bless Icelandica. |
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 22:53:00 -
[633] - Quote
Helothane wrote:Cailais wrote:Helothane wrote:So those who belong to an NPC corp cannot extract from planets in low sec, unless someone else has set up a customs office at that planet and allows other corps to use it? If the player can't have roles, then he/she cannot set up a customs office.
I dunno you could like use the launch pad and rocket the stuff up? C. As mentioned before, that is very limited in terms of volume. There is a timer after you launch before you can do so again, and it isn't trivial.
Then just use a planet with someones custom office on it - you're paying tax as it is now anyway: just this time the ISK goes to another player, rather than an NPC ISK sink.
C.
|
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:02:00 -
[634] - Quote
The closest CCP has come to an idea that made low sec interesting agan was PI. I was actually finally getting some of our members interested in joining me in low sec again to see more isks from PI planets in the low sec near where we operate. For a smart induistrailst with a sneaky transport ship you could make some isks there. Not alot, but enough to make it worth dealing with folks that want to mount your corpse on their buffer panels.
Now CCP is going to show us what they clearly think.
1. They don't understand their own game. They are working on poorly conceived changes in secret that stand to ruin Eve for solo and casual players. We can only expect there are lots of other really bad ideas in the production pipeline at this moment. These bad ideas are way more important to CCP than delivering on the other things they have already promised us but secretly given up on.
2. CCP thinks all players have to be in corporations, or more correctly allinaces with giant super cap fleets. If you aren't CCP considers an irrelevant loser.
3. CCP has an economist but he must be in charge of auditing the coffee fund because he certainly isn't being involved in changes in game mechanics that will have devestating effects on the markets.
4. Even though CCP has deliberately (and seemingly with great pride) created a game that makes the most noble folk act like rat bastards they continue to expect "the next change" to make these same folks already driven to feral behavior and canabalism to join hands and sing "kumbiah" and introduce a new era of harmony and cooperation. Here is something that should be on every wall at CCP".
EVE ONLINE MAKES EVEYONE EVIL IN THE END!!!
5. CCP in the end only really cares about "end game/power blocks/null sec/shooting people in the face" but they still can't even get those things right!
These proposed changes have never more clearly demonstrated that
- CCP does not "get" or care about casual or solo play - Have a clue as to how to fix low sec and make it a desirable element in Eve - Understand event the most basic elements of Eve that drive actual player behavior in Eve - CCP will continue to work on new things in Eve in secret while promising and failing to deliver what they already have committed to us
I want to clarify that I have gone on the record as aksing for CCP to "work on things in secret" and surprise us. I still want that but they need to think things through a lot more than they did with this craziness before they commit resources to their "new" ideas.
This idea should have been killed in the first meetings because it fails in the following obvious ways when implemented anywhere other than nulsec where it might make sense.
1. Increases risk while providing no increase in reward. 2. Creates yet another static target to shoot. 3. Fails on the economics almost immediately. 4. Doesn't make and sense from an RP perspective. 5. Assumes behavior not found in Eve (non-evil cooperation and partnering) 6. Increases the difficulty of the small organizations or solo players for no reason
So CCP please please please rethink what you are thinking of doing. You won't make Eve any better in the end if you go on and do this. I have a way to change your idea that I will put in a seperate post.
Issler |
Holy One
SniggWaffe
46
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:02:00 -
[635] - Quote
This is going to hurt the casual player the most me thinks.
25 planets (5 characters, 2 accounts) in low sec, in one system. All my isk comes from this. I make min. 1m scourge fury missiles a week, which brings in around 1.6bn a month gross (nowhere near that net see below). That pays for plex on both my accounts and leaves just about enough to small gang/fleet pvp in null. Which is what I enjoy doing. Not pve.
It took 3 months to train the characters from scratch to do PI on 5 planets and not get ganked doing it in low sec. I have to contend with russians, lols, pirates, grifers etc. I have to use a pos for copying prints, blockade runners, ocassionally a carrier and a jump freighter to move my stuff (mostly to haul mins and replacement industrials when they get wtfbbq'd by bored locals and other goodies in and missiles out of my mfg system). All of which takes plenty of time and involves risk.
The changes will effectively end my involvement in PI as my corp is not going to help me (why should it?), I am not gonna quit my corp or create an alt corp with 5 dudes in it that will be griefed out of exhistence almost immediately. I'm not gonna 'be an entreprenur' as I don't have any incentive to - other than to soak up more time and hassle and force me to join a large corp willing to pos bash (thats what this is really) to defend my right to play eve for 'free'.
I hate pve and other grind and repetative actions.
So - no longer will I be able to plex my accounts, my investment in characters is lost, my situation as a casual player who funds his pew pew and skill books from passive mfg/industry rather than hours of grind is completely undermined.
I have two choices: quit eve, or pay real money in the form of a sub to play eve and grind for isk like everyone else.
Neither is appealing to me. I am the 'little guy' despite the corp my main is in and its affiliations, this is how I make the isk to make eve fun for myself ..
Lots of dudes like me, I know them, I speak to them, I play with them etc. PI was one of the few things you could do in eve that if you invested time in to it, yielded a decent enough return to let casual players partcipate in 'the bigger picture'.
Now its going to become far too time consuming, tedious and unpredictable to be justifiable. Not when my space bros are making 100m in 10 mins doing incursions. I'd basically have no choice but to go do that. Or quit. And I got to be honest, the way ccp keeps coming out with these kicks in the pants to casual players ie dudes with jobs and other interests, I'm considering that option seriously.
So CCP is going to lose my two plex every month, the market will lose my 4m missiles (for which there is sustained high demand due to limited supply), I won't be able to afford to lose ships in pvp and I won't be able to play eve for 'free' anymore. Since I do not play more than a few hrs a week anyway, I'm basically the 'casual' demograph being flipped the bird and forced to pack it in.
Or join Test .. or Goons .. and put up with all that politics and sov bullshit. Which, in fairness, you may enjoy. But I never have and never will.
Don't cry for me Sperglords. Just take note; cos you're not gonna be allowed to play this game without spending half your life in it, thus making it a job, or paying a sum of real life cash every month. Many of my friends of six years plus, quit because they did not enjoy grind and did not have the time to make the isk they needed to do what they did enjoy - pvp.
I'm hanging in there, but like a lot of people, my extra accounts and my time and contribution to the economy will vanish when I do. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:06:00 -
[636] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Helothane wrote:Cailais wrote:Helothane wrote:So those who belong to an NPC corp cannot extract from planets in low sec, unless someone else has set up a customs office at that planet and allows other corps to use it? If the player can't have roles, then he/she cannot set up a customs office.
I dunno you could like use the launch pad and rocket the stuff up? C. As mentioned before, that is very limited in terms of volume. There is a timer after you launch before you can do so again, and it isn't trivial. Then just use a planet with someones custom office on it - you're paying tax as it is now anyway: just this time the ISK goes to another player, rather than an NPC ISK sink. C. you forgot to mention that it'll be ALOT more isk coming out of your pocket to another player and not the standard CONCORD tax. I foresee tax rates in excess of 20-30% being the norm in low sec. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:09:00 -
[637] - Quote
OK, how to make this a "better" idea.
1. Deliver to plan in null sec. I think letting planets be part of what you fight over there is a good idea.
2. Review and posttibly change the tax rate in high sec for customs offices. Just doubling them sounds like a lazy first guess.
3. Make the COs in low sec be owned by and tied to the pirate factions in the systems. So that using them and your tax rate depends on your standings with those normally to many of us NPC pirate types. I think this would then make the care bears have to engage in some challenging activities around getting the right standings while not messing up their other standings. Put the missions you need to run to get those standings in low sec. More mission runners in low sec, more targets for the player pirates that like to shoot mission runners! Win/Win!!
Do those things and be sure to balance the tax rates and I think you actually will improve Eve in the end.
Issler |
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:17:00 -
[638] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:The closest CCP has come to an idea that made low sec interesting agan was PI. I was actually finally getting some of our members interested in joining me in low sec again to see more isks from PI planets in the low sec near where we operate. For a smart induistrailst with a sneaky transport ship you could make some isks there. Not alot, but enough to make it worth dealing with folks that want to mount your corpse on their buffer panels.
Now CCP is going to show us what they clearly think.
rabble rabble rabble...
whine whine whine...
Issler
Come on man really, you just wasted a whole bunch of time not really posting anything constructive, just a total whine fest.
You clearly like doing what you are doing right now, post some ideas about how they can still preserve what you are doing by dipping your feet into low sec to do some PI but still having choke points that can be contested by entrepreneur that wants to play space over lord?
You are overly trivializing the problematic design philosophies of the desired goal here by just plain old calling CCP incompetant. Surely you've got some brilliant ideas.
Contribute.
|
Di Mulle
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:19:00 -
[639] - Quote
Just two random notes about rather underlying problems.
First, we just got one more screaming evidence that the whole corp roles thing needs to be seriously reworked and improved. We do not need ask corp director for permission each time we go into the toilet - and he may refuse while not being psychotic or smth, and rightly so, because that permission may include keys from the Fort Nox !
But that is a thing which CCP avoids with a passion for many years. Thus a thousandth time stepping into the same trap of piling new stuff onto a fundament which is crumbling for a long time already.
Second, even more fundamental. I just once more saw a disbalance in gameplay. Everything is directed into more and more need and encouraging for indies to work aside and in a cooperation with PVP-ers. And that is a very good thing.
The bad thing that PVP-ers, in general, do not need to work together with industrialists, and most often even don't want to. And in a current system they are right too !
Exceptions may be just things like CSAA's and strategic POS'es, like necessary evil. CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
Hans Uno
An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:26:00 -
[640] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote:Yet another blob-able structure. Why not just make it a somewhat weaker structure that requires a subcapital fleet via, say, an acceleration gate or some other such method? I just can't see this as a feasible way to make PI more interesting. If anything, it will become more like playing SBU tag out in sov space. Who would want more of that?
I like this idea. While an acceleration gate might not "make sense," you could have the Customs Offices so close in orbit to a planet as to be unengageable by ultra-large ship classes (i.e. supers and titans).
For example, a ship class the size of a small planet would not likely be parked just outside the atmosphere and perhaps would need to stay further away from the planet to prevent unfortunate gravitational accidents. This does not prevent blobs, but does encourage sub-capital pvp in a way that "makes sense" (i think?). |
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:27:00 -
[641] - Quote
This idea doesn't suck.
GJ CCP.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:30:00 -
[642] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:1. Increases risk while providing no increase in reward. 2. Creates yet another static target to shoot. 3. Fails on the economics almost immediately. 4. Doesn't make and sense from an RP perspective. 5. Assumes behavior not found in Eve (non-evil cooperation and partnering) 6. Increases the difficulty of the small organizations or solo players for no reason
1. There was very little risk and none in high sec. This is being corrected.
2. The other option is to remove the customs offices entirely and rely on improved rockets. Having a static point provides for a possibility of hostile player interaction. If there is a structure it needs to be destructible.
3. I agree. The costs for a customs office seems quite high compared to likely income. I'd like to see the cost of these structures reduced to allow for profits sooner considering they are such a visible target.
4. It makes more sense than magically appearing structures, especially in w-space.
5. Greed is good. As an industrialist I'd rather collect taxes that just attempt to starve people out. If they use 'my' planet I get money. If I build an offices then I'll have them open. The only problem is figuring out a tax rate that makes it worthwhile.
6. PI has been fairly easy ISK. Just read back for all the people that fund their accounts with it. II think it's too easy to fund accounts with in-game money in EVE which is eventually going to trash the economy, but I'm not an economist, so my opinion doesn't matter much on this point.
I think the main issue they need to balance is the cost of the structure and balance the alternative so that smugglers can rocket their products off planet. Maybe look at dropping commodities to colonies too but personally I'll be doing my advanced production in empire. Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
gnome proper
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:31:00 -
[643] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
1. They will run around and block other people and destroy their POCOs for the lulz, becaus they are bored and because they can, that is the main reason for almost anything in EVE and I can not see a reason why it should be different this time.
False.
At the alliance level, these will not be considered strategic objectives. They will be the cause/focus/center of skirmishes.
Quote: 2, Why take sovereignity in a low quality-dead end system with no useful moon stuff. Because they can take it and they don't want someone else to take it.
False.
Because they can.
Quote: 3. Because they need fuel for their own POS, but even if they don't, someone or something neutral = target = killmail
Bums do PI, rich foplords make you run around like cute little monkies.
|
Abramul
StarFleet Enterprises BricK sQuAD.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:33:00 -
[644] - Quote
(Only read first 5 pages or so, so may be repeating someone. Still, bears saying)
As far as lowsec goes, I strongly suggest making customs offices:
A) Capturable instead of destructible and B) Open to anyone, with the option to charge higher rates (up to the new highsec ones) to neutral and reds Further, make command center storage space increase with upgrades, to 5k m3 or so.
As it stands, there's a good chance large areas of lowsec will be impossible to run PI in.
Another possibility would be to have all (null/low) customs offices capturable only, and allow the owner to order a self-destruct sequence; without killmails, there would be a better chance of people leaving it up and hoping for a buck. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:35:00 -
[645] - Quote
I like the whole idea.
Just 2 things : - Do the same thing in 0.5/0.6 systems. That's where the standing tax will truely be used. "Hey I want to be +5 with you to access that custom office, to get your nice 4% tax, and i'll sent you blue too for our own storm planet". It also adds something to shoot in Empire. For the moment (using an EHP meter) : barges < missionners < pvp ship < GSC < research pos < large dickstar. So, when they are all hiding in a station, I can shoot... Cans (who cares ? not even the miners) and POS. I would like to shoot their custom offices. The perfect job for a small-scale merc corp. The "little guy" can play in 0.7/0.8/0.9/1.0, or find out which corps already claimed some offices in 0.5/0.6 with a "neutral standing" low tax.
And about the EHP of the custom offices. I'll take a 00 gang. 25 ships, but only 20 can shoot (others are logis/falcons/inties/more falcons/Joe who forget his ammos/you always want more falcons). I would say that the average dps of a bc roam is 500 dps. If you're doing a roam to disturb enemy's PI, you dont want to sit on one for more like 6mn. Result = 3m6 EHP. In 30mn, you could put into reinforcement 5 planets (a whole system), which sounds great as a small-scale goal for a medium roam.
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Ramman K'arojic
Deep Black Development
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:37:00 -
[646] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:[ Poor you with so many planets! There should absolutely be a notification of some sort.
Its your limitation of 1 installation per planet. No longer such a bright idea (in low/null/w-h) when you consider this change.
If I am a member of a corp and want 6 planets my corp/alliance must have 6 planets or I need to have standings with 6 other corps. Then have to manage more relationships; this is going to make moving corps around harder .
So some quick questions:
Can you sell a set up installation ? Can you dismantlement an installation (pack it up and move it) ?
|
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:37:00 -
[647] - Quote
Amro One wrote: Thank you CCP for Buffing War Dec'ing options.
Since when do you need a wardec to shoot anything in lowsec/0.0/WH space?
Quote:P.S. - Will all you illiterate player read the damn blog at least 5 times before making comments. As CCP CLEARLY, yes CLEARLY, says everything you need to know.
Perhaps you should read the damn blog at least 5 times before making comments. As CCP CLEARLY, yes CLEARLY, says everything you need to know. (hint: Not in higsec space where wardecs are needed).
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Liquidus Lamnia
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:38:00 -
[648] - Quote
Demon View wrote:Liquidus Lamnia wrote:4) Using FW and Incursion LP for BPC purchase prevents characters with less than 18 months of experience from earning them (ability to fly Macherial/Nightmare/High-End BS), Uh, no. They're 3000 LP for FW. I can make more than that with one trip in a T1 frig doing L1 militia missions.
Can't do FW missions while part of an Alliance I believe. And I'm a Trader, so even faction standings is important and FW is counter-productive for that. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:39:00 -
[649] - Quote
Bodega Cat wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:The closest CCP has come to an idea that made low sec interesting agan was PI. I was actually finally getting some of our members interested in joining me in low sec again to see more isks from PI planets in the low sec near where we operate. For a smart induistrailst with a sneaky transport ship you could make some isks there. Not alot, but enough to make it worth dealing with folks that want to mount your corpse on their buffer panels.
Now CCP is going to show us what they clearly think.
rabble rabble rabble...
whine whine whine...
Issler Come on man really, you just wasted a whole bunch of time not really posting anything constructive, just a total whine fest. You clearly like doing what you are doing right now, post some ideas about how they can still preserve what you are doing by dipping your feet into low sec to do some PI but still having choke points that can be contested by entrepreneur that wants to play space over lord? You are overly trivializing the problematic design philosophies of the desired goal here by just plain old calling CCP incompetant. Surely you've got some brilliant ideas. Contribute.
I did offer specific suggestions in a seperate post immediately after. Feel free to comment on those.
Issler |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:46:00 -
[650] - Quote
Hans Uno wrote:Chicken Pizza wrote:Yet another blob-able structure. Why not just make it a somewhat weaker structure that requires a subcapital fleet via, say, an acceleration gate or some other such method? I just can't see this as a feasible way to make PI more interesting. If anything, it will become more like playing SBU tag out in sov space. Who would want more of that? I like this idea. While an acceleration gate might not "make sense," you could have the Customs Offices so close in orbit to a planet as to be unengageable by ultra-large ship classes (i.e. supers and titans). For example, a ship class the size of a small planet would not likely be parked just outside the atmosphere and perhaps would need to stay further away from the planet to prevent unfortunate gravitational accidents. This does not prevent blobs, but does encourage sub-capital pvp in a way that "makes sense" (i think?).
Well quite frankly, the ability to do anything akin to claiming sov in a system without actually being able to do just that, doesn't really "make sense". So really, I don't think it should need to at this point. It doesn't make sense that empire space is empire space and yet we can take over customs offices, so I don't see anything wrong with an acceleration gate. Plus, that would make it much easier to defend, because then the defender actually has a strategic advantage vs. the attacker as opposed to a straight warp to the POCO, which, as I addressed earlier, will place the defenders at a disadvantage since they will go GCC if they attack first. |
|
The Apostle
The Black Priests
489
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:53:00 -
[651] - Quote
Dradius Calvantia wrote:I see this as an excellent opportunity as an objective for smaller gang, hit and run tactics. If the hit points are balanced right, it will allow small fleets to significantly impact a SOV holding alliance over time, by continuously impacting their POS fuel production and starving the enemy POSes to death instead of blobbing them.
If the CO stopped producing under reo yes.
But it's been said they'll keep working even while reinforced so you can't strangle supply until it's actually dead. No small gang is gonna be able to do that.
It'll just mean hours of repping for some overworked and underpaid logi pilots. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Celeste DiTaken
Void Engineers Permanent Transience
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:54:00 -
[652] - Quote
After reading several pages of comments I did not see any questions regarding this statement, apologies if it has been addressed:
Quote:Customs Offices in all Low Sec, 0.0 and Wormhole systems will be decommissioned and removed.
When? How? All at once?
At first I was worried everyone outside Empire would be cut off from thier planets but I caught that you can still launch your own cans. That does bring up a more interesting (and reasonable) point though. With Command Centers and Spaceports scattered all over the planets surface, is there anyway to break up where cans launch to in space? It could put a hole tax dodge/smuggling spin on PI if you could drop in and get cans off-grid from the Customs office. Of course your structures are obvious on the surface (presumably vulnerable to DUST players... later) and you'd have to be uncloaked at one or more times to make a successful pickup so a diligent Planetary Authority could go about protecting it's 'borders'.
Also, where are you going to put Customs Offices contents if they are not empty at time of removal? Customs Offices are already much larger than the lone Spaceport most of us use and most Spaceports are busy filling up with outputs anyway, can't really force Customs contents back on the planet.
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Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:58:00 -
[653] - Quote
Celeste DiTaken wrote:After reading several pages of comments I did not see any questions regarding this statement, apologies if it has been addressed: Quote:Customs Offices in all Low Sec, 0.0 and Wormhole systems will be decommissioned and removed. Also, where are you going to put Customs Offices contents if they are not empty at time of removal? Customs Offices are already much larger than the lone Spaceport most of us use and most Spaceports are busy filling up with outputs anyway, can't really force Customs contents back on the planet.
CCP Omen said that they would be deposited into a station hangar, though it wasn't specified which. |
Hiram Alexander
Capital Enrichment Services
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:04:00 -
[654] - Quote
This thread reeks of cowardice.
I'm almost stunned at the number of people butt hurt that their days of losec 'risk' are over, and that they're giving up PI altogether. Aww, the poor munchkins... Let's assess the 'risk' you've so far invested.
1. Pop cloaky scout into system... Gate is clear, local's quiet? 2. Pop hauler in, grab stuff and warp out.
I'm in awe. Okay, I'm not...
Well, cowards, the good news is - prices are likely to go so damned high after this change, that keeping your PI in hisec will soon net you more Isk than you ever made in losec before... with zero risk. (gosh) -- of course, you'd be making even more still -- if you kept on producing in losec, but... the imaginary monsters in the cupboard are too scary.
You remind me of the people who're afraid of AFK players.
And as for those few of my fellow WH dwellers who think that they should be somehow exempt from the system. Ahahahahahaha... Priceless.
I know only too well how much Isk we make in WH's from PI, and having that Isk faucet suddenly become vulnerable to attack adds a whole new dimension to the mix --- And just on the off-chance that someone's reading this thinking "It's pointless though, because holes only stay open for a limited time, so attackers won't be able to finish the job" - please leave WH space and don't come back, you're not ready... People will keep cloaky alts in your system for days and weeks if needs be. If one of my friends reinforces your CO, and the hole closes, you can pretty safely bet they'll be back later to finish the job.
If you live in a WH with a Hisec static, and don't think there's any point in taxing your exports because you're the only corp using the planet...... Don't be so stupid. I almost guarantee you've got ninja's in there outside of your TZ. Put the tax up, to 15% and you'll soon find out.
I don't think the proposed system is perfect yet, and I doubt it will be, but it's a firm step in the right direction.
My 2 cents. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:04:00 -
[655] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:I like the changes. Become friends with local pirate corp. They don't blow you up and escort you if needed. You do PI in low sec and get out. A small fee per month covers that expense. New friends, New interaction and maby even some hair raising last minute runs out as your pirate friends jam/destroy aggressors while you get your squishy indi ship out.
I like.
^ go to low sec and make friends with the pirates. I have some friends that would love to meet your most expensive ship.
-.- |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:06:00 -
[656] - Quote
As any change, there is a uncertainty factor here. We just don't know what will happen. So stop crying and make a constructive review of this change. Point some of the obvious flaws and give possible solutions to solve them.
For good or worse, this is here to stay so lets help the devs to improve it, for our sake.
--
My opinion is that there must be a difference on how the custom offices should work in 0.0 from 0.0 NPC/low sec from wormholes., because we have 3 very distinct different areas with different issues that need different approach.
0.0
- In here we have big alliances; we want to promote small warfare; we want to avoid having more structures with big HP to kill, specially when we change sovereignty; so...
- make the CO only deployable by a corp that belongs to the alliance that has the system sov and make them transferable between corps of that alliance only -> [sov matters] - system sov must be level 3 or higher before someone can anchor one CO -> [sov matters / sov needs to be kept and defended before you can make money from it] - If system changes sov, all COs will change owner also (to the sov corp holder) [avoid structure shooting] - If the system looses sov, all COs shutdown -> [obvious] - All COs in 0.0 should deactivate at 95%, not 75% so a small gank can do some damage in ~5 to 10 minutes -> [small gangs have something to burn] - Once deactivated the CO will remain in that state for at least 16 hours and should not activate even if someone goes there and rep it. -> [That should be the penalty for not coming out to defend it] - The CO should rep it self x10 times faster than normal once the 16 hours period goes by and if shield is above 75% -> [ avoid the griding of daily reps after a small gang does some damage] - If the CO comes out of reinforcement and while shield is below 75% CO is deactivated and shield goes up at normal pace -> [defend it and rep it from big fleets damage]
low sec / 0.0 npc
- In here we have small corps, very few alliances; big alliance like to come to grief small corps; capacity of defense of small corps is limited; sovereignty is NPC!
- Here the CO only should deactivate below 50% -> [the enemy wants to disable it or reinforcement it, bring a fleet, avoid greffing by big alliances, since nobody will form up a 100+ men fleet to go to low sec to shoot a CO] - Access to the CO's should be according with the sov owner standings and not the corp standings -> [the sov is NPC, all planets belong to NPC so only NPC standings should define access, nobody should be denied access to the CO's, the only thing the owner can do is set the taxes and that is it] - COs should be allowed to be exchanged by contract between 2 corps, If my corp wants to depart I should be allowed to sell my COs to other corps -> [more isk opportunities]
wormholes
- everything I said about low sec / 0.0 npc applies here but deactivation should be normal -> 75% - also the sov is of nobody, access to the CO's should be universal, nobody should be denied access to the CO's, the only thing the owner can do is set the taxes and that is it -> [avoid small corps being cut out by bigger ones that dominates the wormhole]
---
More questions:
What happens if someone anchors a CO and never upgrades it, ever? do we have to go through the process of killing it before I can put min in? is possible to create a mechanics were if the CO is not upgaded in 7 days, concord "removes it"?
What happens to CO's of corps that close?
Also a problem, I just make some accounting and each CO should cost ~100M! 100M investment in 0.0 by a big alliance is nothing, for small corps in low sec is very expensive, having in account they have to put up 5 or 6, please review this, make different versions depending of the location they will be anchored with prices that reflect this problem and help solve it, for example, a small ~25M for low sec, a medium 50M for worm and large ones 100M for 0.0, just an idea, no pressure...
|
Hans Uno
An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:13:00 -
[657] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote:Hans Uno wrote:Chicken Pizza wrote:Yet another blob-able structure. Why not just make it a somewhat weaker structure that requires a subcapital fleet via, say, an acceleration gate or some other such method? I just can't see this as a feasible way to make PI more interesting. If anything, it will become more like playing SBU tag out in sov space. Who would want more of that? I like this idea. While an acceleration gate might not "make sense," you could have the Customs Offices so close in orbit to a planet as to be unengageable by ultra-large ship classes (i.e. supers and titans). For example, a ship class the size of a small planet would not likely be parked just outside the atmosphere and perhaps would need to stay further away from the planet to prevent unfortunate gravitational accidents. This does not prevent blobs, but does encourage sub-capital pvp in a way that "makes sense" (i think?). Well quite frankly, the ability to do anything akin to claiming sov in a system without actually being able to do just that, doesn't really "make sense". So really, I don't think it should need to at this point. It doesn't make sense that empire space is empire space and yet we can take over customs offices, so I don't see anything wrong with an acceleration gate. Plus, that would make it much easier to defend, because then the defender actually has a strategic advantage vs. the attacker as opposed to a straight warp to the POCO, which, as I addressed earlier, will place the defenders at a disadvantage since they will go GCC if they attack first.
I apologize, I was focused on the "encouraging sub-cap pvp" element of the acceleration gate idea. I'd be interested to know how the GCC works when the attackers return the next day to finish the job? Do the defenders have to wait on the attackers to aggress in low-sec to avoid taking GCC themselves and a standings hit? (I am admittedly unfamiliar with GCC and low-sec mechanics).
It might possibly be more interesting if upon attacking a Customs Office in low-sec the defender gained "kill rights" on the attacker.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:16:00 -
[658] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Chicken Pizza wrote:stuff Fortunately, the same ill informed opinions are being regurgetated and shot down repeatedly, so I am up to speed now thanks. 1: I am well aware of the profitability of high, low, and null sec PI and have worked it to various degree's in all three environments for some time now. If you can't make a decent return on the minute amount of time necessary to maintain a PI chain, even in high sec, you are doing it wrong. It's about as close to being "passive income" as it gets, and with the ability to set taxes on planets that others will be using it gets closer still. 2: You will always run into players that value tears over good business sense. The opposite is also true. Just as null sec alliances rent space to those less powerful than themselves for a profit, so too will people set up PCO's that have reasonable tax rates for people to use. People that do not have the ISK or the desire to defend them if necessary. You can set up as many PCO's as you like, use some of them to enhance your own PI profit margin, and gain passive revenue from the rest. 3: Ninja PI teams use launches all of the time in dangerous space. Granted, CCP should probably look at increasing the payload. 4: As long as your taxes aren't out of line, why would most people care to go to the trouble. There are huge numbers of players that are not in a corp, or are in small corps that would love to use someone's PCO without risk, the hassel, or outlandish fee's. Sure, a larger corp could blow it up, but you risk that with anything in EVE. You DO realize just how many 10's of thousands of planets there are in EVE right? So yeah, I didn't miss much. Just a lot of fear mongering, far fetched what if's about large alliances spending huge amounts of time policing 10's of thousands of planets to ensure a very modest return , and a lot of opinions from people who either didin't read or didin't understand the dev blog... or no nothing about PI or the EVE economy yet feel the need to voice an opinion. This is EvE. If they aren't being paid, you aren't getting laid... and it's more profitable to keep your ho's working hard and take your percentage than it is to blow up the cat house. 1. The term "decent" is extremely subjective, as is my "slightly fruitful". I don't know what you consider "decent", but we apparently don't see eye-to-eye on that note. High sec is fairly well known for having a relatively low output in comparison to, I don't know, everything else. 2. That is redundant and contradictory. Obviously, there are both types of players. However, many times, an alliance is too busy waging war or defending their own home front to actually help renters defend their areas. So, they're often left to fend for themselves against gangs and whatnot. This is a completely different game mechanic that has nothing to do with sovereignty in terms of low sec, and thus, cannot be compared to such a thing. You must not get much interaction with other players if you think a corporation or alliance is going to successfully hold a POCO with the intention of making everyone happy. No, they are going to hike the taxes up to make ISK. It costed ISK to make that POCO, and they want that ISK back some time next year. 3. They certainly do, but that is a very small niche of players, and thus, is fairly inconsequential. 4. You do realize you forgot to subtract the number of potentially useless planets, right? The number of USEFUL planets is much, much lower than that. There are no cats in EvE, silly.
1: Obviously the rewards/time spent are relative to the area of space you are in, and how involved you wish to be. It doesn't take much money coming in vs. the 10 minutes a week it takes to maintain a properly set up chain to be very profitable compared to actual time spent. PI is designed to be either income for new players or passive background income that comes in while you practice other occupations. It takes little time to pay for POS fuels, office rentals, skill books, ammunition, etc. and add a nice 10% on top of my normal T2 production income. This is not Rocket Science (depending on what you produce, of course).
2: I pointed out the obvious, because you were portraying reality to be different. Profit is profit, and the more you make while investing little time or effort in it the better. Why would you NOT put up a PCO up for public use if it did not interfere with your own operations or compromise your security? Why would you make the tax rate so high no one will use it (assuming you had no use for the planet yourself)? Why would you turn down multiple income streams? These are the same types of questions that Alliance leadership asks themselves whenever they consider renting unused space adjacent to their own. I have participated in this decision making process many times in the past, greed and the desire for meat shields are the motivating factors.... but mostly greed. This is highly applicable to this discussion. If I were considering renting to an industrially active corp or alliance, one of my stipulations would likely be that all PCO's would be provided by the corps in my alliance... with a tax rate designed to be just low enough to encourage them to continue PI activities.
3: Judging by this thread the number of ninja and solo/small corp PI industrialists is not a niche group.
4: Most of the "useless" planets are in Empire and not affected by this, and what may be worthless to you and I may be perfectly fine for many depending on what they are trying to produce.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Himnos Altar
Angry Hobos Interstellar Hobos
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:20:00 -
[659] - Quote
As someone who was butthurt quite badly when I first read the thread, then calmed down and realized that atm the tarriff is probably at around 10% anyway, I want to say GJ CCP. What I was butthurt about was the fact that it looked like neuts could be 100% locked out of the customs offices. Now, looking back over it, it doesn't appear to be the case.
Just one question CCP--why no fuel for reinforcement? Seriously? No Stront? It's just magically reinforced? IMHO it should be same as POSes/other Reinforcables, but then again, I don't really care about this.
Also--Bandwith increased 5x?
THANK YOU CCP!!!!
But then, that means that I'll have to rework my factory planets, since I'll be able to fit more than 3x onto a single link without having to upgrade it.....oh well. :D
All in all, it looks like PI import/export prices will increase dramatically in the near future, but will probably correspond with a similar increase in PI goods prices.
And getting rid of the magical customs offices in WH/Null will make things seem a bit more like CCP wants it to feel....plus it will mean that you'll be able to tell even easier if there's someone in the system. Scan for POSes/Customs Offices.... |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:23:00 -
[660] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:5hadow 1 wrote:Again CCP has given the SUPER CAP BLOB Alliance the upper hand.
The greif of having one is just not worth it. Supers will just RF it in 5 min or less. Come back within 24 hrs and do it again. Any smart alliance will just move all there PI with alt to high sec and avoid the grief. Price will skyrocket till the high sec alts ramp up production and the zero zero deep BOTTERS ramp up theres.
And only one custom office per planet means only the SuperCap Blob Alliances with control all the LOW SEC PI. For they will just blob any small corp or alliace who put one up. So you either pay the massive fee which they will set to discourage others from doing PI in Low Sec. So you either join the Blob alliace and become a pet or go high sec or just dont bother with it.
This is the kind of logic that breaks down almost immediately. What benefit is it for an Alliance to run around nuking POCO's, and than setting up their own, than blocking people out?? Why do you think its fun for them to own a dead planet? Why do you think all alliances want to even bother with PI?? The price to build one is intentional - there should be a calculated economic advantage to owning one. "Lone Wolfs" will find it difficult to justify the cost. This is rightfully so. Lone wolfs will find it difficult to defend one, this is rightfully so. The game is not designed for lone wolfs. Lone wolfs can find niche work, but the game should not be designed around providing solo players with plenty of training wheels to survive. The system is set up for a number of possible scenarios - First, an entity could jack taxes up so high as to "shut out" other players (or block based on standings) . The ONLY advantage to this, is if you plan on maximizing the productive capability of that planet - in other words you better have dozens of corp members with colonies on that planet, and you want to squeeze every last drop from it. If you can't do this, there is NO incentive to spending 100 mil and bothering to defend it. if you do have this extraction capability, great, you deserve a chance to fight to own it all. The other scenario, which is much more likely, is that taxation will merely increase to make ownership profitable. This is COUNTER to the idea of locking people out, because you are encouraging people to take up space on the planet. "but i've done some fancy math and the income sux" doesnt cut it here. Players will find the tipping point - where you can extract maximum taxes, without driving people to neigboring planets. This slumlord competition is great, and exactly what a gravytrain easy production system like PI needs. But it wont "kill" PI, it'll just make you choose more carefully. The final scenario is simple - the owner is benevolent, and will price the PI for free for its allowed inhabitants, whether they be friendlies or the general public. Plenty of alliances have maintained or tried to maintain "safe zones" even in dangerous places, and the same will be true in lowsec. Notice CCP is jacking up higsec taxes - this provides incentives for players to actually entice other players out to lowsec / nullsec by providing a CHEAPER place to do PI, not more expensive. And If you're a benevolent slumlord providing duty-free PI, than your inhabitants will have a stake in defending their colony on your planet. You may find your planet becomes a popular place to work, and your chances of having a deeper pool to draw on for POCO defense go way up. If your occupants are too lazy to defend their duty-free, lucrative planet, they don't deserve the privilege of being there in the first place. However you look at it - profiting off players, seizing it yourself, or giving it away, all provide an excellent mix of motivations, gameplay opportunities, and it forces people to get to know their neighbors and work together. Win, win, win. I totally hate the fact that I've done PI every day in lowsec in its release, and its been COMPLETELY safe. Never have I been ganked, never have I had issues with encroaching colonies, and I don't even care who else is on the planets right now. This lack of danger, lack of socialization, lack of challenge, is completely bullshit. I embrace the fact that there is finally a way to make PI social, competitive, and dynamic. Think outside the box, make friends, push yourself to the limit. You guys can get through this - stop complaining, start getting creative, start forming your network to save your planet. This is not the end of the world.
This is considerably more constructive than your last posts in this thread. I still agree with many points in principle. The problem is still in practice. The short term effects and long term effects are going to make life in eve not simply different, but difficult. Again, this is good in theory, but if my time in eve has taught me anything, it's that this kind of change will cause more headache than fun. Considering we still haven't got a UI that isn't a click fest, I see this feature as premature. The roll-out plan is also problematic. Reasons for all this are contained in the previous pages.
This thread is still indicating that the majority of people that will be affected will not be affected in a positive way. Please think this all the way through again CCP. Don't make the same mistakes that you've made over and over again in the past. |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:25:00 -
[661] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:Welcome back to taxation without representation.
Welcome to EVE. Check your journal next time you make a purchase or build something.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:35:00 -
[662] - Quote
CCP continues to make me glad I have no dealings with the tedious douchebaggery pointless poltical crap of nullsec.
Eve Online simply wasn't tedious enough, if I was actually affected by all the incredibly boring means by which nullsec dwellers endeavor to screw each other over, I'd be horrified that CCP had provided an even-yet-more-boring and inconvienient means by which to do so.
Fortunately I long ago made the (imo obvious) decision that nullsec wasn't worth all the tedious bothersome crap and that CCP clearly wasn't going ot change that, they do apparently wish to make it moreso however. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:35:00 -
[663] - Quote
Liquidus Lamnia wrote:Demon View wrote:Liquidus Lamnia wrote:4) Using FW and Incursion LP for BPC purchase prevents characters with less than 18 months of experience from earning them (ability to fly Macherial/Nightmare/High-End BS), Uh, no. They're 3000 LP for FW. I can make more than that with one trip in a T1 frig doing L1 militia missions. Can't do FW missions while part of an Alliance I believe. And I'm a Trader, so even faction standings is important and FW is counter-productive for that.
The buy the BPC or Gantry off of the market like everyone else. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:39:00 -
[664] - Quote
This feature iteration sounds like a good step. I am confident, the PI team will further watch it and balance as needed. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
52
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:39:00 -
[665] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:I like the changes. Become friends with local pirate corp. They don't blow you up and escort you if needed. You do PI in low sec and get out. A small fee per month covers that expense. New friends, New interaction and maby even some hair raising last minute runs out as your pirate friends jam/destroy aggressors while you get your squishy indi ship out.
I like. ^ go to low sec and make friends with the pirates. I have some friends that would love to meet your most expensive ship. -.-
Real pirates make deals, run protection rackets, collect and honor ransoms, etc. all the time.
The rest are brainless thugs, not pirates, and are usually not smart enough to be considered a real threat. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
57
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:41:00 -
[666] - Quote
Himnos Altar wrote:... What I was butthurt about was the fact that it looked like neuts could be 100% locked out of the customs offices. Now, looking back over it, it doesn't appear to be the case. ... Scan for Customs Offices....
From the dev blog it clearly states that you set the minimum standing to access the customs office. If you can't access customs you'll have to resort to launching rockets.
Customs offices will remain on the overview. No scanning required.
Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
GoneMissing
Star League Expeditionary Force Star Council
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:44:00 -
[667] - Quote
Whoa whoa WHOA!!
> Customs Offices in all Low Sec, 0.0 and Wormhole systems will be decommissioned and removed.
I will need a much clearer explanation of the mechanics here. Those of us who currently DO have PI colonies running in non-empire spaces have already invested capital and logistical efforts in getting those colonies running under the previous rules with launchpads and Command Center logistical/behavioral rules already established. ONE of those rules is that the Command Centers merely must exist - they did *NOT* necessarily need to be a part of the installed communications links between the other facilities and launchpads in order to operate a colony and to import/export materials.
If all the existing Customs Offices are summarily removed, and we don't have either replacement Corporate Customs Offices _nor_ the availability of blueprints or the other materials to construct them readily available (say in wspace) to quickly replace them, then quite simply WE WILL GET SCREWED BY THIS CHANGE when the existing Customs Offices go *poof* and our launchpads have nothing to "communicate with"!
It will take us quite a bit of extra TIME AND CAPITAL and LOGISTICAL EFFORT in-game to regain our current functionality (not to mention the LOST INCOME)!
I cry FOUL!! |
xxxak
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
62
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:44:00 -
[668] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
Might be more fun if anyone can drop these. Nerfing supers is not going to help the N+1/Blob problem. It will just mean that superpilots will be even more likely to want to blob. Think more creatively. Support the idea of a subcap "assault bomber." |
A Lunchbox
Basgerin Pirate
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:50:00 -
[669] - Quote
On the structure HP being too high/low... I think it's just right. It's low enough where a small gang can reinforce it in a reasonable amount of time, and I love this. Small gangs have needed something to do objective wise for a long time, and this could definitely be a step in the right direction. It's true, if you make something accessable to small gangs, larger gangs will always be better... But hey, I don't care what alliance you roll with, getting people excited over a structure grind is already a huge chore. Getting people excited over multiple (being as how there are going to be tons of these things) junky 150 mil structure grinds with cheaper loot than you can score off some small pos mods? Yea, good luck with that.
I'm sure it'll happen anyway, I mean this IS eve, but after the new shinyness wears off it'll just be crappy profit and crap for isk added to kb stats. Only the people leaning super heavily on PI will likely be able to justify doing this on a regular basis, and even they have a few dozen other things to worry about blowing up and defending at any given time. Hell, that might even get them to split their blobs up to make sure things get done right. Imagine that.
As far as the supercap question goes, those are already getting the nerfbat. Fielding any number of these just to shoot at junky 150 mil structures is currently an easy thing, but when they become more vulnerable to, well, everything smaller than them, yea you're not going to see that happen too much. Have any of you even seen how many nyx are being resold because people won't be able to logoffski them? Hillarious. Take that into account and you shouldn't be worrying about putting accel gates on the silly things. Even pre-nerf I'd drool if I saw some dumb **** drop a single/small group of them on a freaking planet.
That being said, I highly approve of these changes and will personally be destroying every low-sec POCO I find, just to set up my own with 49% tax rates. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
52
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:51:00 -
[670] - Quote
GoneMissing wrote:Whoa whoa WHOA!! > Customs Offices in all Low Sec, 0.0 and Wormhole systems will be decommissioned and removed. I will need a much clearer explanation of the mechanics here. Those of us who currently DO have PI colonies running in non-empire spaces have already invested capital and logistical efforts in getting those colonies running under the previous rules with launchpads and Command Center logistical/behavioral rules already established. ONE of those rules is that the Command Centers merely must exist - they did *NOT* necessarily need to be a part of the installed communications links between the other facilities and launchpads in order to operate a colony and to import/export materials. If all the existing Customs Offices are summarily removed, and we don't have either replacement Corporate Customs Offices _nor_ the availability of blueprints or the other materials to construct them readily available (say in wspace) to quickly replace them, then quite simply WE WILL GET SCREWED BY THIS CHANGE when the existing Customs Offices go *poof* and our launchpads have nothing to "communicate with"! It will take us quite a bit of extra TIME AND CAPITAL and LOGISTICAL EFFORT in-game to regain our current functionality (not to mention the LOST INCOME)! I cry FOUL!!
Within a few minutes after the patch goes live you will see BPC's for the gantry available in every major market.
Shortly after that, the Gantry's will be available on the market for purchase.
You may need to launch rockets for a while until you get set up again, which will be tedious.
You will need to shell out ISK for the BPC or Gantry (if you don't have loyalty points to spend), and for the materials to build/upgrade it to a PCO.
After your initial investment you will be making 5% more than you currently are, 10% more than anyone in Empire will be able to thereafter. It will take a little while to start pulling ahead in the game, but then your profits increase.
Pro's and Con's.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:53:00 -
[671] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:I like the changes. Become friends with local pirate corp. They don't blow you up and escort you if needed. You do PI in low sec and get out. A small fee per month covers that expense. New friends, New interaction and maby even some hair raising last minute runs out as your pirate friends jam/destroy aggressors while you get your squishy indi ship out.
I like. ^ go to low sec and make friends with the pirates. I have some friends that would love to meet your most expensive ship. -.- Real pirates make deals, run protection rackets, collect and honor ransoms, etc. all the time. The rest are brainless thugs, not pirates, and are usually not smart enough to be considered a real threat.
'real' pirates? Let me be clear, I've done my time in eve. I've stayed in the same corp for almost 6 years, but in that time, I've seen many things happen in many different places. Low-sec is not foreign to me. I've stated this already.
Low-sec is not the stepping stone to null-sec. The people there are not interested in what you have to offer unless it's a killmail or a good fight. There are exceptions to that description, but by and large, I go to low sec with the assumption that I will be shot on sight by anyone - and for good reason. Anyone claiming that low sec corps would be okay with a bunch of people from empire using their space for any reason is very clearly dealing with a minority of the low sec population.
People that are -10 go to low-sec - not people looking to deal with the volatility of -10 pilots. Industry cannot operate reliably with that kind of a population without security which very quickly turns a profitable model into an isk black hole.
The current implementation removes the security requirement. PI can exist. This change will make PI not exist. I cannot state the complex problem any simpler.
The rise in material price will not justify it so long as PI can be done in empire. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 00:59:00 -
[672] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:GoneMissing wrote:Whoa whoa WHOA!! > Customs Offices in all Low Sec, 0.0 and Wormhole systems will be decommissioned and removed. I will need a much clearer explanation of the mechanics here. Those of us who currently DO have PI colonies running in non-empire spaces have already invested capital and logistical efforts in getting those colonies running under the previous rules with launchpads and Command Center logistical/behavioral rules already established. ONE of those rules is that the Command Centers merely must exist - they did *NOT* necessarily need to be a part of the installed communications links between the other facilities and launchpads in order to operate a colony and to import/export materials. If all the existing Customs Offices are summarily removed, and we don't have either replacement Corporate Customs Offices _nor_ the availability of blueprints or the other materials to construct them readily available (say in wspace) to quickly replace them, then quite simply WE WILL GET SCREWED BY THIS CHANGE when the existing Customs Offices go *poof* and our launchpads have nothing to "communicate with"! It will take us quite a bit of extra TIME AND CAPITAL and LOGISTICAL EFFORT in-game to regain our current functionality (not to mention the LOST INCOME)! I cry FOUL!! Within a few minutes after the patch goes live you will see BPC's for the gantry available in every major market. Shortly after that, the Gantry's will be available on the market for purchase. You may need to launch rockets for a while until you get set up again, which will be tedious. You will need to shell out ISK for the BPC or Gantry (if you don't have loyalty points to spend), and for the materials to build/upgrade it to a PCO. After your initial investment you will be making 5% more than you currently are, 10% more than anyone in Empire will be able to thereafter. It will take a little while to start pulling ahead in the game, but then your profits increase. Pro's and Con's.
The volatility introduced by the roll out process will essentially destroy every market associated with PI materials. If CCP carries on with this process, it will be an indication that they want to see the PI market and it's associated markets rebuilt by players from scratch.
As stated previously: Anyone who has any PI experience knows that rockets are a non-viable alternative in it's current form.
Your percentages are after market volatility has settled and are made with assumptions about the tax rate that will be charged for anyone trying to operate in low sec - about as accurate as we would be sending a probe to the nearest star IRL. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:02:00 -
[673] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:I like the changes. Become friends with local pirate corp. They don't blow you up and escort you if needed. You do PI in low sec and get out. A small fee per month covers that expense. New friends, New interaction and maby even some hair raising last minute runs out as your pirate friends jam/destroy aggressors while you get your squishy indi ship out.
I like. ^ go to low sec and make friends with the pirates. I have some friends that would love to meet your most expensive ship. -.- Real pirates make deals, run protection rackets, collect and honor ransoms, etc. all the time. The rest are brainless thugs, not pirates, and are usually not smart enough to be considered a real threat. 'real' pirates? Let me be clear, I've done my time in eve. I've stayed in the same corp for almost 6 years, but in that time, I've seen many things happen in many different places. Low-sec is not foreign to me. I've stated this already. Low-sec is not the stepping stone to null-sec. The people there are not interested in what you have to offer unless it's a killmail or a good fight. There are exceptions to that description, but by and large, I go to low sec with the assumption that I will be shot on sight by anyone - and for good reason. Anyone claiming that low sec corps would be okay with a bunch of people from empire using their space for any reason is very clearly dealing with a minority of the low sec population. People that are -10 go to low-sec - not people looking to deal with the volatility of -10 pilots. Industry cannot operate reliably with that kind of a population without security which very quickly turns a profitable model into an isk black hole. The current implementation removes the security requirement. PI can exist. This change will make PI not exist. I cannot state the complex problem any simpler. The rise in material price will not justify it so long as PI can be done in empire.
Just stating a fact my friend, sorry if you took it personally. You do realize that the "most expensive ship" the PI crowd will be bringing in is a cloaky transport right?
You are quite correct in that few people doing PI in low sec will be making deals with pirates, unless it is to pay a nominal fee to protect their PCO... although I'm sure the occasional ransom will change hands.
A smart "pirate" would be considering putting up a few PCO's of his own right about now. Not to make money off the rent (although they would) but to encourage more targets to frequent the area.
This again demonstrates the difference between a pirate and a thug.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Andre Jean Sarpantis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:03:00 -
[674] - Quote
Throwing in my two cents, i dislike the implemention from this idea as well i'm disapointed about CCP seemingly only to care about the PvP Crowd.
With this feature getting implementet, most lowsec PI will quickly die, and highsec PI will grow in an amount so even the last planet will get filled up with colonies until the resources are sufferd to an absolute minimum and arent worth getting worked with after a few weeks of peoples farming the planets dry.
So PI POS Fuels raising up in prices.....ergo another big hit on even the smaller corps to uphold and keep running a little research POS.......and this brings up again the question what if this is just the first strike followed up with the long discussed hiseciceremoval.....well thank you CCP for beeing on a good way to kill hisec industry and nearly all research.
And nobody should come and tell me 'But but ...you still have research and produktion stations in hisec!!'...Hah....if the changes occured and hisec POSses aren't longer runable in a fashionable way,, those Slots will get all blocked fpr months all the way up by the research and production bots!! |
Danuvia Za
Bellum Aeternus Imperial Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:05:00 -
[675] - Quote
I like the concept, however...
This will be a massive hassle even not considering the warfare aspects. There are thousands of systems in low & null sec and you want us to buy an office for every single planet in them?! This will kill off PI activity, which in turn will kill off PI products, which produce the very components that the new customs office are created out of! A double whammy. Not to mention driving POS and POS fuel prices through the roof, sending a shockwave through the market making many other seemingly unrelated things more expensive.
PLEASE don't change the Customs Office itself and instead let players anchor a "Systems Taxation Office" anywhere in the system (except in range of a POS) that will control the taxation functions of all the customs offices in the system. In addition do not allow players to completely deny access to a system's PI, outside of sov space. Instead let them place a maximum tax of say 300% or something.
In addition the gameplay of a simple undefended structure that takes a 1000dps battleship TWO HOURS of EHP to kill is LAME. You know that people are only rarely going to defend these places, make taking them not so mindnumbingly boring. Put the target in a deadspace complex with "taxation" officials you need to kill to change ownership or SOMETHING. Give the attackers something to DO while waiting for the owners to respond.
This will * provide a more important conflict point * not cost small-scale planeteers tens/hundreds of millions of isk PER PLANET to even do PI at all * not force players to perform ridiculous numbers of boring events in order to economically control an area
If you will not change the customs office idea then please at least make the structure much cheaper and easier to destroy. |
Anti Pod
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:06:00 -
[676] - Quote
Man this is suck and the new boring ****. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
371
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:07:00 -
[677] - Quote
Repost regarding the issue of large blobs reinforcing everything + your mom in 30 minutes;
They could add a small reinforcement (lol code reuse) that happens mid-way to the main reinforcement point, a 'partial reinforcement' that takes only e.g. 15-30 minutes. The genius part of the idea is that during that time the shields recharge, and if the attackers don't keep shooting at it the structure will exit the partial reinforcement with enough shield that you need to go through another partial reinforcement cycle.
Thus not only do you lengthen the time it takes for a blob to put a CO into reinforcement, you also require at least a small force to remain behind while waiting for the final part, which provides a good target for the defenders in addition to limiting how many CO's can be taken out. So a 50-man blob can't just reinforce 10 CO's in a system within 30 minutes. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:09:00 -
[678] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:GoneMissing wrote:Whoa whoa WHOA!! > Customs Offices in all Low Sec, 0.0 and Wormhole systems will be decommissioned and removed. I will need a much clearer explanation of the mechanics here. Those of us who currently DO have PI colonies running in non-empire spaces have already invested capital and logistical efforts in getting those colonies running under the previous rules with launchpads and Command Center logistical/behavioral rules already established. ONE of those rules is that the Command Centers merely must exist - they did *NOT* necessarily need to be a part of the installed communications links between the other facilities and launchpads in order to operate a colony and to import/export materials. If all the existing Customs Offices are summarily removed, and we don't have either replacement Corporate Customs Offices _nor_ the availability of blueprints or the other materials to construct them readily available (say in wspace) to quickly replace them, then quite simply WE WILL GET SCREWED BY THIS CHANGE when the existing Customs Offices go *poof* and our launchpads have nothing to "communicate with"! It will take us quite a bit of extra TIME AND CAPITAL and LOGISTICAL EFFORT in-game to regain our current functionality (not to mention the LOST INCOME)! I cry FOUL!! Within a few minutes after the patch goes live you will see BPC's for the gantry available in every major market. Shortly after that, the Gantry's will be available on the market for purchase. You may need to launch rockets for a while until you get set up again, which will be tedious. You will need to shell out ISK for the BPC or Gantry (if you don't have loyalty points to spend), and for the materials to build/upgrade it to a PCO. After your initial investment you will be making 5% more than you currently are, 10% more than anyone in Empire will be able to thereafter. It will take a little while to start pulling ahead in the game, but then your profits increase. Pro's and Con's. The volatility introduced by the roll out process will essentially destroy every market associated with PI materials. If CCP carries on with this process, it will be an indication that they want to see the PI market and it's associated markets rebuilt by players from scratch. As stated previously: Anyone who has any PI experience knows that rockets are a non-viable alternative in it's current form. Your percentages are after market volatility has settled and are made with assumptions about the tax rate that will be charged for anyone trying to operate in low sec - about as accurate as we would be sending a probe to the nearest star IRL.
The only Volatility that is likely to happen is that PI goods will be in short supply for a short time, making them more valuable. Not a bad thing in this example.
Rockets are not desirable, but would suffice in a pinch during the short time between patch day and your new PCO coming online. The smart PI industrialist will time his collections appropriately to minimize time without a PCO. I have also already suggested that CCP should consider upping the payload on rockets.
Since we were talking about about replacing the CPO with one they built themselves I would say there are few things in life more certain than what they will charge themselves in taxes. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Tetragammatron Prime
Pink Sockers
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:10:00 -
[679] - Quote
If you're complaining that the customs office will take 2 hours to reinforce in your solo bs then you're pretty dumb. This is an MMO. Get friends or go do a pos in high sec where you can completely avoid pvp with dec shield. Also PI in high sec. |
Anishoara
Federal Institute Service
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:20:00 -
[680] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
I do not agree with you.
In low-sec, yes, maybe some corporations will specialized themselves by "renting" CO, but in WH and Null-Sec, corporations will lock the planet to themselves. Don't forget planet has a depletion system, less people on the planet, more resourcs to take.
You have stats we don't have, but have a look to the docking rights from null-sec station. I'm quite sure, if your are not blue with owner, in the most case you can't dock ! Will be exactely the same with CO.
Is ok for me with this, but if you made your "brainstorming" thinking what you said, i think you took it wrong.
(sorry, english is not my native langage) |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:21:00 -
[681] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:I like the changes. Become friends with local pirate corp. They don't blow you up and escort you if needed. You do PI in low sec and get out. A small fee per month covers that expense. New friends, New interaction and maby even some hair raising last minute runs out as your pirate friends jam/destroy aggressors while you get your squishy indi ship out.
I like. ^ go to low sec and make friends with the pirates. I have some friends that would love to meet your most expensive ship. -.- Real pirates make deals, run protection rackets, collect and honor ransoms, etc. all the time. The rest are brainless thugs, not pirates, and are usually not smart enough to be considered a real threat. 'real' pirates? Let me be clear, I've done my time in eve. I've stayed in the same corp for almost 6 years, but in that time, I've seen many things happen in many different places. Low-sec is not foreign to me. I've stated this already. Low-sec is not the stepping stone to null-sec. The people there are not interested in what you have to offer unless it's a killmail or a good fight. There are exceptions to that description, but by and large, I go to low sec with the assumption that I will be shot on sight by anyone - and for good reason. Anyone claiming that low sec corps would be okay with a bunch of people from empire using their space for any reason is very clearly dealing with a minority of the low sec population. People that are -10 go to low-sec - not people looking to deal with the volatility of -10 pilots. Industry cannot operate reliably with that kind of a population without security which very quickly turns a profitable model into an isk black hole. The current implementation removes the security requirement. PI can exist. This change will make PI not exist. I cannot state the complex problem any simpler. The rise in material price will not justify it so long as PI can be done in empire. Just stating a fact my friend, sorry if you took it personally. You do realize that the "most expensive ship" the PI crowd will be bringing in is a cloaky transport right? You are quite correct in that few people doing PI in low sec will be making deals with pirates, unless it is to pay a nominal fee to protect their PCO... although I'm sure the occasional ransom will change hands. A smart "pirate" would be considering putting up a few PCO's of his own right about now. Not to make money off the rent (although they would) but to encourage more targets to frequent the area. This again demonstrates the difference between a pirate and a thug.
Foremost, you're a classy guy. I appreciate that.
Those same pirates you're talking about realize that setting up a PCO and watching the logs for when people pull their products off planet is a fruitless endeavor. They would farm any carebears stupid enough to fall for it right back out of low sec. There isn't an economic reason for a pirate corp to setup a PCO.
Ah, but then they would be able to open it up for their players to get PI materials out of it! Except the economic viability of keeping it there is only for as long as they want to live there. Most low-sec dwellers will not bother with a PCO unless they have been there for a long time and doing it already.
But what about protection rackets?! The same problem exists - money. No carebear will shell out the cash for this sort of thing, because they'll (sadly) make more in empire running missions and doing PI while waiting for their AFK Domi to finish off the last of the rats.
The problem I have is not with the situations you describe. Those will occur, but they will be a severe minority. As it stands, it's the casual player that can sneak in and out with minimal security that can eek out a living doing this sort of thing(some better than others). Those players will not be able to contribute their supply to the pool at all.
The problem is in the global impact and the effects on the game play of a significant portion of the player base.
|
GoneMissing
Star League Expeditionary Force Star Council
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:26:00 -
[682] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:GoneMissing wrote:Whoa whoa WHOA!! > Customs Offices in all Low Sec, 0.0 and Wormhole systems will be decommissioned and removed. I will need a much clearer explanation of the mechanics here. Those of us who currently DO have PI colonies running in non-empire spaces have already invested capital and logistical efforts in getting those colonies running under the previous rules with launchpads and Command Center logistical/behavioral rules already established. ONE of those rules is that the Command Centers merely must exist - they did *NOT* necessarily need to be a part of the installed communications links between the other facilities and launchpads in order to operate a colony and to import/export materials. If all the existing Customs Offices are summarily removed, and we don't have either replacement Corporate Customs Offices _nor_ the availability of blueprints or the other materials to construct them readily available (say in wspace) to quickly replace them, then quite simply WE WILL GET SCREWED BY THIS CHANGE when the existing Customs Offices go *poof* and our launchpads have nothing to "communicate with"! It will take us quite a bit of extra TIME AND CAPITAL and LOGISTICAL EFFORT in-game to regain our current functionality (not to mention the LOST INCOME)! I cry FOUL!! Within a few minutes after the patch goes live you will see BPC's for the gantry available in every major market. Shortly after that, the Gantry's will be available on the market for purchase. You may need to launch rockets for a while until you get set up again, which will be tedious. You will need to shell out ISK for the BPC or Gantry (if you don't have loyalty points to spend), and for the materials to build/upgrade it to a PCO. After your initial investment you will be making 5% more than you currently are, 10% more than anyone in Empire will be able to thereafter. It will take a little while to start pulling ahead in the game, but then your profits increase. Pro's and Con's.
That does not answer the issue of PI clusters built without having the command centers being a part of the communications links. What can be done to allow us to fix those things (since Command Centers can't be moved) so that at least SOME PI can still be used without the new Customs centers in place? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:27:00 -
[683] - Quote
Anishoara wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. I do not agree with you. In low-sec, yes, maybe some corporations will specialized themselves by "renting" CO, but in WH and Null-Sec, corporations will lock the planet to themselves. Don't forget planet has a depletion system, less people on the planet, more resourcs to take. You have stats we don't have, but have a look to the docking rights from null-sec station. I'm quite sure, if your are not blue with owner, in the most case you can't dock ! Will be exactely the same with CO. Is ok for me with this, but if you made your "brainstorming" thinking what you said, i think you took it wrong. (sorry, english is not my native langage)
What about planets that they don't need, in systems that don't compromise their security?
Not as common an occurrence in most WH, but very common in Null.
Why not make money off of the planets you don't need for yourself, and if you are of a mind (and most are) lure more traffic/targets a short distance from your space?
Sort of like setting up a salt lick for hunting deer, or a honey trap for hunting (care) bear.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
DARPA Blackswift
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:30:00 -
[684] - Quote
I am an independent ninja pi player in low-sec. 72 planets across 4 accounts. 6 months to train pi to max and cloaky hauler across all toons. 30M-40M per 33 days (10k m3 of p2 material) for each pi load.
The instability of destructible custom offices is not good. I will drain as much until the change and then move to high-sec.
Even with negotiating access with a strong local power is not worthwhile when I forecast yields on a monthly timespan and buildings can be destroyed so easily.
As it stands now, the 25k m3 storage gives me close to 3 months to harvest the pi in my cloaky haulers. Allowing me to pick slow times to ninja the goods out.
To move to a new area and setup fully upgraded command centers is a time sink and an isk sink. To recover from the isk sink of upgrade costs is about three-quarters of a month's yield.
Do I like the proposed changes? no.
I will adapt. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:37:00 -
[685] - Quote
Quote:Foremost, you're a classy guy. I appreciate that.
Those same pirates you're talking about realize that setting up a PCO and watching the logs for when people pull their products off planet is a fruitless endeavor. They would farm any carebears stupid enough to fall for it right back out of low sec. There isn't an economic reason for a pirate corp to setup a PCO.
Ah, but then they would be able to open it up for their players to get PI materials out of it! Except the economic viability of keeping it there is only for as long as they want to live there. Most low-sec dwellers will not bother with a PCO unless they have been there for a long time and doing it already.
But what about protection rackets?! The same problem exists - money. No carebear will shell out the cash for this sort of thing, because they'll (sadly) make more in empire running missions and doing PI while waiting for their AFK Domi to finish off the last of the rats.
The problem I have is not with the situations you describe. Those will occur, but they will be a severe minority. As it stands, it's the casual player that can sneak in and out with minimal security that can eek out a living doing this sort of thing(some better than others). Those players will not be able to contribute their supply to the pool at all.
The problem is in the global impact and the effects on the game play of a significant portion of the player base.
I get where you are coming from (well put by the way).
One suggestion I have made that would mitigate a lot of these (valid) concerns is for the payload of rockets to be increased to a more practical level. It would cut into your profits but take the tedious aspect out of the equation.
I'm also concerned about the building costs of the PCO. I tend to agree with others in this thread that it might be a better route to make them very cheap to replace, thus lessening the incentive to spend time blowing it up (and making replacement relatively painless).
Then again, I'm an advocate of making NeX store items 1/10th the current price, but destructible and only available somewhere that you actually took/wore them to... so what do I know.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:40:00 -
[686] - Quote
The price of the PI products will probably raise up, go back down and end up covering the high side of the average taxation on CO. People who have planets with lower tax will make more of a profit.
I'm interested to see if the prices of PI products at the major trade hubs have already gone up with people buying heaps in advance? |
Shinzann
Dead poets society The Laughing Men
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:47:00 -
[687] - Quote
Midnight Hope wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc. Station hangar! What about those of us who live in a wormhole? A station hangar is not exactly around the corner!
+1. ^^
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:52:00 -
[688] - Quote
CCP Omen,
Wouldn't it make more sense to simply make the existing Low Sec, 0.0, and WH Custom's Offices destructible (even very easily destructible) instead of just wiping them?
Was there a reason for doing it this way than allowing the community to take them over but leave infastructure in place, until a planet's custom's office is taken over or simply destroyed?
**Not to mention that I hope you'll give us an event out of this with symaltanious explosions in system at a specific time eh?** |
Kagan Storm
Syndicated Systems
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:53:00 -
[689] - Quote
32 pages of comments.... and all together i see a bunch of people just trying to manipulate each other.
From those 32 pages i come to this conclusion:
alts go to 0.0 preferably npc they all train cloaky haulers i JF crap once a week to highsec.
I do p2 p3 p4 in highsec.
Problem solved.
On another note.... WTB precises tables on how much it costs to launch from command center.
ALSO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WANT CONFIRMATION WINDOW IM GONNA PAY MONEY TO SOMEBODY SO I DONT PAY IM THE MONEY FOR USING HIS PLANET POS.
P.S. looking at current CMS delegates and what they are doing its not exactly encouraging the fact you discussed this with them.... Offering small loans. Send message for details and arrangements. :)
|
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 01:54:00 -
[690] - Quote
Rees Noturana wrote:
1. There was very little risk and none in high sec. This is being corrected.
2. The other option is to remove the customs offices entirely and rely on improved rockets. Having a static point provides for a possibility of hostile player interaction. If there is a structure it needs to be destructible.
3. I agree. The costs for a customs office seems quite high compared to likely income. I'd like to see the cost of these structures reduced to allow for profits sooner considering they are such a visible target.
4. It makes more sense than magically appearing structures, especially in w-space.
5. Greed is good. As an industrialist I'd rather collect taxes that just attempt to starve people out. If they use 'my' planet I get money. If I build an offices then I'll have them open. The only problem is figuring out a tax rate that makes it worthwhile.
6. PI has been fairly easy ISK. Just read back for all the people that fund their accounts with it. II think it's too easy to fund accounts with in-game money in EVE which is eventually going to trash the economy, but I'm not an economist, so my opinion doesn't matter much on this point.
I think the main issue they need to balance is the cost of the structure and balance the alternative so that smugglers can rocket their products off planet. Maybe look at dropping commodities to colonies too but personally I'll be doing my advanced production in empire.
1. The risk to reward won't be right in low sec. 2. I would support bigger rockets as a possible alternative in low sec. Again, just get the risk/reward right, this proposal doesn't. 3 :-) 4. OK, WH it doesn't make much sense either. WH should be like nul sec however this gets implemented. 5. More folks seem to about the starving other folk as compared to the income. The nature of Eve. 6. I am OK with PI getting more challenging. This proposal is not the way to make that happen.
So one other thing that this causes, a whole new class of necro structures, these things need to die on thier own if their owners don't visit them. We have all seen the dead corp POSs on moons. These will be a new type of "ghosts of dead corps" things to litter space that will need to be blown up to clear planets that they park on.
So to be clear parts of what this idea intends to accomplish make sense, but the low sec part as proposed makes no sense to me.
Issler |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
27
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Posted - 2011.10.19 02:03:00 -
[691] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Foremost, you're a classy guy. I appreciate that.
Those same pirates you're talking about realize that setting up a PCO and watching the logs for when people pull their products off planet is a fruitless endeavor. They would farm any carebears stupid enough to fall for it right back out of low sec. There isn't an economic reason for a pirate corp to setup a PCO.
Ah, but then they would be able to open it up for their players to get PI materials out of it! Except the economic viability of keeping it there is only for as long as they want to live there. Most low-sec dwellers will not bother with a PCO unless they have been there for a long time and doing it already.
But what about protection rackets?! The same problem exists - money. No carebear will shell out the cash for this sort of thing, because they'll (sadly) make more in empire running missions and doing PI while waiting for their AFK Domi to finish off the last of the rats.
The problem I have is not with the situations you describe. Those will occur, but they will be a severe minority. As it stands, it's the casual player that can sneak in and out with minimal security that can eek out a living doing this sort of thing(some better than others). Those players will not be able to contribute their supply to the pool at all.
The problem is in the global impact and the effects on the game play of a significant portion of the player base.
I get where you are coming from (well put by the way). One suggestion I have made that would mitigate a lot of these (valid) concerns is for the payload of rockets to be increased to a more practical level. It would cut into your profits but take the tedious aspect out of the equation. I'm also concerned about the building costs of the PCO. I tend to agree with others in this thread that it might be a better route to make them very cheap to replace, thus lessening the incentive to spend time blowing it up (and making replacement relatively painless). Then again, I'm an advocate of making NeX store items 1/10th the current price, but destructible and only available somewhere that you actually took/wore them to... so what do I know. both statements, agreed. These are the easiest and biggest things that could be done to ease the situation.
|
Webster Carr
The Order of the Oar
0
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Posted - 2011.10.19 02:04:00 -
[692] - Quote
Suggestion: Include a Corporate Customs Hangar that can be used by anyone with the proper roles (same as POS hangars, etc.) |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
172
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 02:06:00 -
[693] - Quote
Ah crap, I didn't even think about that issue, and I'm sure CCP didn't either. NONE of my command centers connect to my PI setups anymore. They've moved across the planet many times. Basically, if the customs offices go poof, that's it. No way to launch PI.
Is it even possible to send materials TO the planets without a customs office? I gather P2 mats and take them to a sinle planet for P3 and P4 production. Sounds like we're getting additionally screwed there as well.
Damn, I wish CCP would actually slow down and think things through, think about all the ripples they cause when they rush game-changing decisions like this. When they promised more communications, I didn't think they meant yelling "Surprise *********!" before bending us over. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 02:06:00 -
[694] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Chicken Pizza wrote:[quote=Ranger 1][quote=Chicken Pizza]stuff 1: Obviously the rewards/time spent are relative to the area of space you are in, and how involved you wish to be. It doesn't take much money coming in vs. the 10 minutes a week it takes to maintain a properly set up chain to be very profitable compared to actual time spent. PI is designed to be either income for new players or passive background income that comes in while you practice other occupations. It takes little time to pay for POS fuels, office rentals, skill books, ammunition, etc. and add a nice 10% on top of my normal T2 production income. This is not Rocket Science (depending on what you produce, of course). 2: I pointed out the obvious, because you were portraying reality to be different. Profit is profit, and the more you make while investing little time or effort in it the better. Why would you NOT put up a PCO up for public use if it did not interfere with your own operations or compromise your security? Why would you make the tax rate so high no one will use it (assuming you had no use for the planet yourself)? Why would you turn down multiple income streams? These are the same types of questions that Alliance leadership asks themselves whenever they consider renting unused space adjacent to their own. I have participated in this decision making process many times in the past, greed and the desire for meat shields are the motivating factors.... but mostly greed. This is highly applicable to this discussion. If I were considering renting to an industrially active corp or alliance, one of my stipulations would likely be that all PCO's would be provided by the corps in my alliance... with a tax rate designed to be just low enough to encourage them to continue PI activities. 3: Judging by this thread the number of ninja and solo/small corp PI industrialists is not a niche group. 4: Most of the "useless" planets are in Empire and not affected by this, and what may be worthless to you and I may be perfectly fine for many depending on what they are trying to produce.
2. Why would I not put a PCO up for public use? Errm, because I want the resources on the planet for myself and my corp alliance. To keep others out of the system? You say you have were involved with decisions about renting systems to others. So you understand why people would want only blues in the system I presume. You also miss the point of the new PCO.... it is to compromise your security if you own a PCO. It can be attacked. If your doing PI, there is no reason a owner of a PCO couldn't lock you out of your resources whenever they felt like it. Your only response is to move to another planet, or attack the PCO.
If you had no use for the planet yourself, why are you trying to put a PCO on it?? The income from the taxes is pretty poor compared to the risk and expense of installing and protecting one.
Multiple income streams is good. You assume that running a PCO will be profitable. If your PCO gets blown up every few months, it's not profitable based on the numbers we have so far. This uses 100% tax rate. Your payback can be years if you have a low tax rate.
Ranger 1 also stated that someone doing PI would bring in a cloaky transport. He also stated that a pirates will put up PCO's to encourage more targets to enter the area. Cloaky transports are pretty hard to catch in low sec. So you desire people to camp a PCO to catch them? I suppose that could be done, but I have yet to see a camp around a CO after months of doing PI. You think gate camps are boring.... just wait til you start doing CO camps. I'm in and out of a CO in 3 seconds, and there is no flashy gate to let you know I'm coming. I can even make a tactical warp in spot a few hundred km off the PCO and a dscan its very easy to tell if you are waiting for me.
The problem Ranger, is that all the numbers we have now indicate that it will be a VERY long time to recoup your money with taxes (months to years), assuming that your PCO doesnt get blown up, ever. Yes, you can defend the PCO, but if you loose a couple T1 BC ships, which is likely in a fight, you just cost yourself more to defend the PCO than it is worth.
The fundamental problem with this whole plan is economics.
Most of Eve is centered around the idea, that if you specialize in something - industry, research, some type of ships, hauling, whatever, you can increase your income as your skills improve in that area. You top out in 3.5months with a basic character, no implants or remaps, with PI. You are limited to 6 planets, and the income that those planets can produce. The more people that use that planet, the more you fight with depletion. There is a limit as to how much you can get from taxes, simply because the planet only has so much in resources to extract.
It would cost 80-100 million for a PCO. At 100% taxes, you need to tax 13,333 robotics to recoup your costs. Thats over 4000 hours of production for a single facility. I would suspect that you earn less for lower tier products. It make importing to a low/null sec system senseless. You have a high sec production planet, and haul stuff, like toxic metals and such to it, import it to the high sec planet, and you avoid the taxes from a low sec PCO owner.
I checked some of my planets. I am 4 jumps from Hek, on a planet in low sec with 80% resource strength. I am the only one on the planet, unless the show others networks thing doesn't work. Even at 100% tax, it will take you literally years to recoup the cost of the PCO with just me using it. The economics of having a PCO make it senseless to have a PCO. |
VaMei
Meafi Corp
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 02:08:00 -
[695] - Quote
Kagan Storm wrote:From those 32 pages i come to this conclusion: alts go to 0.0 preferably npc they all train cloaky haulers i JF crap once a week to highsec.
I do p2 p3 p4 in highsec.
Problem solved. The problem with that will be launching your P1s from the CC... 500m3 at a shot. If you don't have a CO you can use, that's your alternative. |
Shinzann
Dead poets society The Laughing Men
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 02:12:00 -
[696] - Quote
tgl3 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:You know... this is actually a pretty worthless change when it comes to wormholes. It makes no sense at all. Usually a single corp / alliance lives in a hole, and no one comes in from other systems to do PI. It's completely not feasible. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to change the way things work right now in wormholes. It really should be left as is in there. Pretty much this. There's no point in WHs having this because the only people using a WH's planets are those already living there. Noone else will use them, and noone else will shoot them. My 2 cents.
I agree with almost all of this... Except for the shooting at them part. I can see folks shooting at them just for fun.
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Trespasser
Isotope Incorporated Exiled Collective
0
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Posted - 2011.10.19 02:22:00 -
[697] - Quote
i got a better idea,
How about we leave Customs offices alone like they are now but... in 0.0 if you claim sov in a system your alliance gets to change the tax rate of the customs offices. this would be the best option all around.
Your nerfing Highsec with 10% tax and thats fine, I would say you can take wormholes to a 10% tax as long as you leave customs offices alone
That way 0.0 would be the best for PI.
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Narkel Netto
Qatach Ominant Juriate
0
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Posted - 2011.10.19 02:36:00 -
[698] - Quote
Great concept, but it will be a non starter unless:
* They are always anchored in the middle of the existing customs office grid point. Otherwise grid-fu will rule the day.
* They come in different sizes and allow you to anchor hardeners / defenses (think "miniature POS"). This will let people decide on how much they want to spend on fuel / defenses.
* The smallest version should have a 21 day fuel bay and cost about 100k/day. Maybe give it about 1/2 of the PG/CPU of a small POS tower and call it a mini-POCO. Larger versions should scale up and a large-POCO should cost about 800k/day in fuel.
* Fuel costs are needed, and if its not fueled it should go offline and anyone can simply unanchor the POCO and anchor a new one under new ownership. Without ongoing fuel or maintenance costs, there's going to be POCO spam everywhere.
* Tax rates should only be allowed to change once a week or once a month. Put a cooldown timer on it so that when you decide to "buy in", you're guaranteed a 30-day window before the tax rate changes. Especially since setting up a PI planet can cost 6-10M ISK and you need a week or so to break even.
* It's absolutely imperative that tax rates and access to the POCO can be set by alliance standings (if the corp is in an alliance) or by corporation standings. One tax rate with no regard to standings will not cut it. The existing tax / control screen doesn't do it.
* Tax should be based firmly on ISK/m3 basis, not some magical number in the database.
* It must be possible to see these structures in the Science & Industry window so that you can shop tax rates. You need to be able to see when the tax rate last changed and a history of previous tax rates.
* Regeneration rates for products need to be increased slightly because people will be condensed into fewer planets rather then being able to spread out to every planet in the system. There are going to be more command centers on existing planets, which is going to play havoc with yields. It's going to be a brutal catch-22 where you want more people using YOUR planets, but the more that you have the less everyone makes.
I can pretty much guarantee that all P2/P3/P4 factory worlds will move out of lo-sec and into hi-sec. The burden of risk is going to be on the people who harvest P0 and turn it into P1 haaving to deal with slumlords who jack the tax rate up/down all the time. |
Janta Sarum
Nevermind mkII
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 02:40:00 -
[699] - Quote
Well pi will no longer be viable for small corps or solo players. Big alliances and corporations will now start controlling the pi product market, since they have the cash to put up those custom offices and the firepower to defend it. High sec pi will not be viable, simply because there is a fixed cost with import and export taxes. Costs that the big alliances and corporations will not have themselves so they can always undercut. Not going to deactivate this account yet, will see how it all turns out, but I'm not hopefull. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 02:45:00 -
[700] - Quote
Narkel Netto wrote:Great concept, but it will be a non starter unless:
* They come in different sizes and allow you to anchor hardeners / defenses (think "miniature POS"). This will let people decide on how much they want to spend on fuel / defenses.
* The smallest version should have a 21 day fuel bay and cost about 100k/day. Maybe give it about 1/2 of the PG/CPU of a small POS tower and call it a mini-POCO. Larger versions should scale up and a large-POCO should cost about 800k/day in fuel.
* Fuel costs are needed, and if its not fueled it should go offline and anyone can simply unanchor the POCO and anchor a new one under new ownership. Without ongoing fuel or maintenance costs, there's going to be POCO spam everywhere.
What the hell are you thinking? You're going to have them burn more fuel than the planets can generate? We'll need ten of these damnable things in our hole. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
59
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 02:49:00 -
[701] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So one other thing that this causes, a whole new class of necro structures, these things need to die on thier own if their owners don't visit them. We have all seen the dead corp POSs on moons. These will be a new type of "ghosts of dead corps" things to litter space that will need to be blown up to clear planets that they park on.
Very good point. Hey, Omen, what happens when a capsuleer doesn't tend to his CO?
Spent some time thinking about options and deleted everything I wrote. I think I'll just wait for Omen to respond.
Rees Noturana // Professional Treasure Hunter |
Katy Ling
Crimnson Concept Flame
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 02:52:00 -
[702] - Quote
cBOLTSON wrote:While I applaud the fact you are actually working on old content, improving and doing new things with P.I. I have to say this dosent intrest me in the slightest. Sounds like more work.
Please dont see this as a jab at you, I just wish there was more 'fun' involved.
very good point !
once again, CCP is taking lots of work to overcomplicate what should be simple ! the game should be fun ! not complicate !
* i red some comments about the costumers tax being higher than high sec ... not really needed, high sec PI is a joke, bearably producing anything compared to low sec or null sec.
- anyone can anchor a pos and gun defences - only sov holder can anchor sov Hi-Hub and no defences - now, you want to make something that everyone can anchor and have no defences ... well, that's like a free griefing machine, like an expensive pos without guns, that everyone can go there there, and ping it, and doesn't even shoot back. you picked the worst of 2 worlds and made it even worst. you seem wanting to add some sort of Hybrid reinforcement mechanic betwin sovereignty and pos bashing. - it has a configurable reinforce time, and it's destructible.
* tryng to ofset all this "extra non fun work", with 5x more powergrid which could allow players to be able to extract more planetary stuff ... which in my opinion, backfires in you're face ! why !? because PI material already demands a large cargo capacity. in case it would be necessary to produce even more to ofset the costs / risks, it would make people having to spent a lot longer, doing something that isn't fun.
- Costumer officers Should be deployable only by holding sov alliance. - should be fliped like stations - the extra powergrid seems interesting (maybe it needs 2x CPU boost too !?)
CCP Omen wrote: Appreciate the feedback. It's a tough nut, we have some ideas for the future, so hopefully, while there are no protection, those fights will be relatively isolated to particular systems in space. The value dynamic is very interesting, if alliances terrorize customs offices, there will be fewer around and the prices go up so bigger incentives to set one up again and protect it.
* what you guys don't understand !? PI taxes are cheap as it is ! expecting that the revenue is enough to hire people to go protecting it, is a naive illusion ! increase the taxes to make it worth wille, will make the pos fuel and T2 go to such high prices delivering a terrible blow on the end costumer wich simply end up not buying.
the only guys happy with this possible change are the ones asking : "can i destroy it !?"
well ... i have one one constructive opinion about this kind of change if it moves ahead :
RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... RIOT ! ... \0/
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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
51
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Posted - 2011.10.19 02:58:00 -
[703] - Quote
PI has been used by "the little guy" or the grunt in many null sec alliances as passive income to support their PvP habits so they don't need to grind out rats for hours on end.
Please keep in mind that by removing or impeding on this income in any fashion drives the cost and logistics up while driving morale and the "fun factor" of EVE down.
What ever you do, implement it so that the grunt who's trying to make ends meet on the battle field is still capable with less hassle. In my opinion, PI currently has already doubled, if not quadrupled the cost of running POS's. Sov quirks aren't enough these days to off set the current investment necessary to maintain them. POS's which help fund ship replacement programs to keep active duders in combat ships.
Keep the new pilot trying to fleet up and have fun in combat in mind every step of the way on this.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:02:00 -
[704] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:PI has been used by "the little guy" or the grunt in many null sec alliances as passive income to support their PvP habits so they don't need to grind out rats for hours on end.
Please keep in mind that by removing or impeding on this income in any fashion drives the cost and logistics up while driving morale and the "fun factor" of EVE down.
What ever you do, implement it so that the grunt who's trying to make ends meet on the battle field is still capable with less hassle. In my opinion, PI currently has already doubled, if not quadrupled the cost of running POS's. Sov quirks aren't enough these days to off set the current investment necessary to maintain them.
Keep the new pilot trying to fleet up and have fun in combat in mind every step of the way on this.
This goes on the long laundry list of things wrong with this feature. Think this through again devs. Your final QA staff is getting restless even thinking about the changes in their current form. |
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:08:00 -
[705] - Quote
This is a awesome idea . despite the technical issues already outlined by the player base .
a solution to greifing concerns could be as follows.
re-implement mines ( i know aghhhhh!!!) but only so in a limited fashion.
- mines only deployable x meters from the offfice
- mines are powerful and are great deterrent against ships of ever increasing sizes (absolutely deadly against drones fighters/bombers)
- structure add on to allowing storing and auto redeploying mines
- mines are smart only attack attackers
if mines are to ugly . then resort to auto defense drones
- drones already implemented in game think stationary carrier.
- swarm mechanics
- structure upgrade to hold more drones
other creative ideas that allow structure owners to properly and meaningfully defend their structures.
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:12:00 -
[706] - Quote
I have read all CCP Omen's posts, and I get the sense that FW Corps doing "Denial of Service" Attacks on opposing Militia Custom's Offices (Or even non-FW anchored CO's) [IE not allowing anyone to place a CO structure] has been placed on more of a wait and see approach?
Specifically that beyond just being a focal point of fighting, that the superior force make a 'Dead Zone' rather than say place their own Custom's Office.
In FW terms, CEO's and militia FC's may just decide that trying to slip a little ISK' kick back' device into your enemies home system say in Black Rise, let alone defending the thing, isn't worth allowing their enemy the ability to make exponentially more ISK in commodities to buy even better ships to come kill you with later?
I hope when it comes to FW, that CCP and Team Pi has taken a hard and long look at the 'reverse-psychology' scenarios that have the potential to seriously disenfranchise PI in low sec Faction Warfare regions?
Don't forget - It's a proven fact: Players always do what you least expect them to do! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:15:00 -
[707] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:PI has been used by "the little guy" or the grunt in many null sec alliances as passive income to support their PvP habits so they don't need to grind out rats for hours on end.
Please keep in mind that by removing or impeding on this income in any fashion drives the cost and logistics up while driving morale and the "fun factor" of EVE down.
What ever you do, implement it so that the grunt who's trying to make ends meet on the battle field is still capable with less hassle. In my opinion, PI currently has already doubled, if not quadrupled the cost of running POS's. Sov quirks aren't enough these days to off set the current investment necessary to maintain them. POS's which help fund ship replacement programs to keep active duders in combat ships.
Keep the new pilot trying to fleet up and have fun in combat in mind every step of the way on this.
Seems that any increase in cost would be the fault of the corp placing the PCO. Nothing states you have to set the tax higher, or have anyone be taxed at all. Alliances with sov could, with relative ease, deploy them and set taxes to 0% for blues and enabling you to fuel POS's at lower costs. If your alliance is unwilling to do this then how is CCP at fault? |
Sneaky Neko
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:16:00 -
[708] - Quote
I don't know if this is necessarily the direction you want to go with this, but what if the owning corporation had the option to make the customs office not work if it is put into reinforced (possibly also increasing the reinforce time by a day or something). Hypothetically this would provide incentive for people in lowsec/NPC nullsec to put up with reasonable taxes in exchange for 1) not having to buy a CO and 2) not having to deal with the down-time associated with removing the old one. In essence making it a little more feasible for entrepreneurs to seed systems with customs offices for tax-based profit.
Fake edit: Humm, the idea of re-introducing mines to defend structures is a little intriguing. With limitations, they would probably need some sort of F.O.F. system to be useful and something would need to be done to detour greifing (perhaps only deployable in systems where you hold sov?). Mind you, I wasn't around when mines existed before so it may well be a terrible idea. |
Sassums
Wormhole Exploration Crew Transmission Lost
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:17:00 -
[709] - Quote
So are corporations within the same alliance allowed to use the offices? |
Your Corp Sucks
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:24:00 -
[710] - Quote
Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.
^^THIS |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
163
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:28:00 -
[711] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:well as they made them worthless for anything but shooting structures in the last blog, they had to amke more structures for them to shoot i guess.
When your mummy sends you to bed without dessert because you kicked your sister, do you complain that your parents don't love you?
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Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:30:00 -
[712] - Quote
Your Corp Sucks wrote:Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy. ^^THIS
this also a great idea.
maybe add a claim system to it to allow the lil guy the opportunity to take it himself. but other wise that would allow for a smooth roll out. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:30:00 -
[713] - Quote
Your Corp Sucks wrote:Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy. ^^THIS
I have to say i dislike this idea as it makes this yet another feature where small and/or noncombat corps need not apply. At least as is once can try to setup in an out of the way location and hope no one finds it to be worth taking down while reaping the most likely modest rewards. |
Your Corp Sucks
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:34:00 -
[714] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Orakkus wrote:It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?
Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best. Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.
This seems like a good argument for doing as one guy suggested and leaving the current ones in place but making them attackable.
Making it so that the customs offices are just *gone* until you or someone else puts one up is going to really hurt "the little guy" who is doing their PI in a quiet lowsec system. I know personally I'm not going to be able to run out on day one and build six new customs offices, and who knows when someone else might come along to do it. |
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:36:00 -
[715] - Quote
Quote:
I have to say i dislike this idea as it makes this yet another feature where small and/or noncombat corps need not apply. At least as is once can try to setup in an out of the way location and hope no one finds it to be worth taking down while reaping the most likely modest rewards.
yeah thats my only problem with it . thats why i suggested some kind a claim system where the lil guy can lay claim to it and figure some way or spend the time dismantling it so he can erect his own . |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:41:00 -
[716] - Quote
I definitely saw the idea that NEEDS to be implemented:
Different taxes for different standing level would encourage corps to keep their CO's open to the public, as some people might not want to tax their corp members or friends at all, but this current planned system pretty much makes it tax-all-or-ban-from-use.
For ex: Corp Members, no tax Alliance Member, 2% Faction Members 5% Blues 10% Neutrals 12% Competitors 15% Enemies No access. We have a blog, it is terrible. How to fix Bounty Hunting |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:46:00 -
[717] - Quote
I've started to realize that while I like the general concept, I'm having a serious problem with wiping the current Custom's Offices, rather than making them attackable...
Hell, you could even do a 'Claim Deed' where you provide CONCORD with X, get a claim deed in return and if you're corp drops it into the existing Custom's Office first then it's your's - then you have to defend the thing... it's a seed without being a seed, and doesn't disrupt the current PI production (unless that's intentional?)
Lastly, I'm just gonna be a bit cynical here and ask:
>>>So if we can now have player owned Custom's office's in Low Sec... .can we also get player owned Outposts too?!?!?!! <<<<
*(Cause I know my militia would love to build one in Black Rise!) |
Ambein Flambein
352 Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:50:00 -
[718] - Quote
anyone looking for a place to put pi alts is welcome to join my corp, ill provide oyu with roles for setting up and managing your poco
edit: page 37 sniper. yes im that immature |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 03:59:00 -
[719] - Quote
PCO's don't make economic sense. It takes 13,333 robotics units to pay for 1 PCO, at 100% tax. Thats 4444 hours of production, just turning consumer electronics and mechanical parts into robotics, not making the electronics or mechanical parts. Thats over 6 advanced industrial facilities going 24/7 for a month. I don't think there are many planets that can produce that much, month after month.
The problem is that no one will be willing to put up a PCO, because it's essentially defenseless, can be put into reinforced mode in minutes, and isn't worth defending. Why would you defend a 80mil PCO with a fleet costing billions? Why would you risk a logi who is repping the PCO that is more expensive than the PCO itself? The income you get from it isn't that great. Why pay a merc corp to defend it? What merc corp would work for 80 million or less to defend a structure? More than 80 million and you buy a new PCO, not hire a merc corp to defend it.
The PCO needs to make a fair profit on his investment and risk. With the current system, you can't move enough resources through the PCO to recover your costs in a reasonable amount of time, and this assumes you won't loose a PCO. So only null sec alliances will use them, and then only so they can produce higher tier products, that can't be produced on a single planet. It won't be a profit making venture (the PCO itself). It makes no sense to import to a PCO, since you'll be taxed going in, and coming out, at presumably a higher rate than in high sec.
What would prevent a PCO owner from suddenly cutting off access to materials? You would have to keep the materials planetside until you are ready to pick them up from the PCO. Which makes the larger capacity of the PCO's pointless. Do you pay taxes when you move materials out of the hanger and into your cargo hold? I don't believe this is the way it currently works. I think taxes are paid when you export them to the CO. Does the PCO have access to things in the PCO? It makes PCO's a grieving tactic on PI, which makes it more likely just to launch stuff into space and skip the PCO.
As a PI person, I see me launching stuff into orbit as often as possible, and every 3 days going around to collect it. I avoid any taxes, any risk of loosing materials in a PCO, and any chance of being attacked at a PCO picking up my stuff. I then haul it to high sec to a production planet. It doesnt make sense to risk things with a PCO. What I can launch is my new limit of what I can produce, not what I can produce on a planet given it's resource concentration and my command center upgrade skill.
It follows that it no longer makes sense to max out my command center upgrades skill. I only upgrade it to the point that I can't launch all that I can produce.
I don't know how you make a PCO worthwhile to invest in and defend. It's pretty clear, given the feedback in this thread, people wouldnt allow neuts to use a PCO in null or in a WH. So the incentive to put up a PCO there is not income. Other than the cost of putting up a PCO, those in null and WH's pretty much carry on as before. This whole thing is irrelevant to them.
In low sec, you some how need to reduce the cost of the PCO to make it profitable to anchor and recoup your costs in weeks. In doing so, the lower cost it is to anchor, the less incentive there is to defend it. If you raise the cost of the PCO to make it worthwhile to defend, you'll never recoup your costs. So it's a catch 22, cheap enough to be profitable, or expensive enough to defend. I see only planets with very good resources even having a chance at a PCO. PCO's have to be cheaper then simply launching the stuff into space, otherwise no one will use them.
I see this falling out 1 of 2 ways. People put up PCOs, and they get knocked down, making it a losing proposition to own a PCO, because it takes so long to recoup your costs. So the new norm would be simply launching your stuff into space since there is no PCO to be had anywhere, which totally defeats the whole point of the new PCO system.
The other possibility is that PCO's aren't worthwhile to attack. You blow up a PCO, what do you get? With a POS, you get what's in the POS. With a PCO, would you get the resources that are stored there? Pfft, that would simply mean that a PI person would never store their resources in the PCO, making the larger hanger there pointless. Maybe the incentive is to put up your own PCO for income. I don't see a PCO as a real source of income given the numbers we have been given. What else could you gain? I don't see anything else. The result is that no one attacks a PCO, since attacking a structure that doesn't shoot back for no gain is pointless and boring. The result of that is economics is screwed up for a bit until things readjust, and we have exactly the same system we have now, just with some players making a few million ISK a month from PCO taxes which is essentially a long term investment, from a few planets that have high resources. Most planets never get a PCO. This means few PCO's around, higher PI material prices,
I tend to think that there will be few PCO's, since they are unprofitable and at risk. The new norm will be people launch as much as they can into space, haul it to high sec to a production planet. High resource planets are no longer as desirable, because you are limited more by what you can launch than what the planet can produce.
The new cost of PI materials will be determined by what can be launched into orbit in low sec or produced by those in null/wh space, and the cost of importing it to and then out of high sec production planets to produce higher tier products. I don't know what that number is, but I would think it's less than 100% tax, making PCO ownership even less desirable.
The system they worked so hard to design, falls flat on it's face and is self defeating. Instead of making PCO combat happen, it eliminates CO's from anyplace but high sec. |
Zuteh
Infinite Improbability Inc RAZOR Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 04:11:00 -
[720] - Quote
This is a waste of time. Fix Supers and hybrids first, then POSes, they are beyond horrible outdated broken. Any and all efforts should go into those three things before introducing more bugs and bad mechanics. |
|
Davelantor
The Resistance Movement The Unforgiven Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 04:26:00 -
[721] - Quote
This will fuckup low sec with corps moving to make them all 100% tax regardless they do PI or not. But will be fun in 0.0 and W-space.
congratulations CCP for making PI a worthless investment for the low sec.
paying 20 times higher fees will be fun i guess. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
99
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 04:27:00 -
[722] - Quote
What is actually missing is the DECISION tree element of the Sov Warfare.
You can attack, or as the defender you decide to attack and pre-empt the attack. In this case, there is no such balancing act, but there needs to be. The ability to CHOOSE to defend in a manner other than showing up for the timer needs to be presented.
Also, an overall solution to the "Shooting Structures" thing needs to be figured out by Team BFF. I know it's not easy.
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
165
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 04:32:00 -
[723] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:I tend to think that there will be few PCO's, since they are unprofitable and at risk. The new norm will be people launch as much as they can into space, haul it to high sec to a production planet. High resource planets are no longer as desirable, because you are limited more by what you can launch than what the planet can produce.
The new cost of PI materials will be determined by what can be launched into orbit in low sec or produced by those in null/wh space, and the cost of importing it to and then out of high sec production planets to produce higher tier products. I don't know what that number is, but I would think it's less than 100% tax, making PCO ownership even less desirable.
The system they worked so hard to design, falls flat on it's face and is self defeating. Instead of making PCO combat happen, it eliminates CO's from anyplace but high sec.
For you to produce stuff and launch it into space, it must be worth enough to cover the cost of launching it. Since the presence of a PCO provides cheaper option for exporting goods from the planet, those who use PCOs will be relying on the tax income from a number of people using the planet. A PCO will soak up the profit of one planeteer for 6 months at current prices. With the advent of destructible Customs Offices, expect to see all PI materials rise in price.
That customs offices will remain in hisec is a disappointment GÇö they would have been a nice target for wardecs, and having them provided free and forever by CONCORD provides another bias towards hisec away from lowsec.
PCO is most definitely a feature intended for null sec, especially considering it is possible to set the tax rate to 0%, which immediately provides a material advantage over hisec. |
Amber Mevilien
Ore Exploration Team
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 04:34:00 -
[724] - Quote
Good to know that the only game mechanics i liked to play will be screwed.
Thx CCP for living up to my expectations.
I will no longer be playing once this **** hits low sec. GòæGòæGòöGòÉGòªGòªGòªGòÉGòù-á GòæGòÜGòúGòæGòæGòæGòæGò¬Gòú GòÜGòÉGò¬GòÉGò¬GòÉGò¬GòÉGÖÑ |
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 04:44:00 -
[725] - Quote
something i just thought about .
are these new offices meant to be dustable ?
implementing dust mechanics into these might be the ideal way of handling some of the issues highlighted in this thread.
for example : the structures are extremely hard to destroy . but through dust they can be captured recaptured etc. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:01:00 -
[726] - Quote
IMO, the idea has a some good concepts, but needs to be more balanced.
Part of the uproar here is that PI is currently an individual activity, not a corp activity. By moving it to a corp activity, your allowing corps to tax and control PI activities. This is fairly cool, but your cost of implementation is out of balance.
From a corp standpoint, the isk return on POCOs is too small. In null sec, you rarely have more than 5 players on a planet, and at current rates your looking at 6 Months before a corp gets a return on its investment. Even at 20 players per planet, we are talking 1-2 Months before the costs are recovered. Now, I figure CCP wants corps to be more interested in planets, with a larger number of players per planet, but I don't think this will work, not unless you significantly boost the PI products you can produce (think moon goo). As for the reinforcement bit. People might come out for a good fight, but no-one wants to spend the time to rep up a Customs Offices. They have WAY to little value. They produce very little income, and they have hardly any strategic worth. Hell, I'd spend an extra 5 minutes to blow it up and anchor a new one rather than spend 30 minutes to rep up 2.5m shields in an unprotected ship!
I do think the use of POCO's is enough to encourage significant private investment, just not at that price. In my mind, the optimal price of a POCO is about 30-50m. This is enough that a person with the urge to do serious PI can outright pay for the POCO. They PI for two weeks, and then they can start earning a profit. The hassle around Alt Corps, Permissions, and Sov might then be worth it. As it is, it would take an investor well over a month to pay for their setup costs.
There's a real dilemma here. Its yield is not worth the cost of setting up as a corp, nor as an individual. I total understand using RF timers to encourage fights and prevent Timezone griefing, but its strategic value and price-tag is not worth the time to rep it up. Using isk to make it important is a bad mechanic, we'd much rather it be cheaper with less hit points. I'd make it easy to reinforce, and easy to repair... I'm imagining about 10 minutes with a five-man gang to do either. Its HP is just too high.... I think its HP should be reduced to 10-20% of the provided stats.
TL;DR; Lower the total setup costs to 30-50m. At its current price, its yield is not worth the time to setup as an individual, nor as a corp. Please lower its HP too.
There are a lot of additional questions: 1.) How is a player supposed to create their CO locations within 100k of a planet? 2.) Are POCOs like stations, anchor & fill and egg, then it spawns during DT? Or can you put up a POCO anytime? 3.) I designed my PI to use spaceports, and it has NO connections to the CC. Often my CC is on a different area of the planet from my spaceports. Can we PLEASE use the spaceport to launch commodities too? |
Candente
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:08:00 -
[727] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pat Irvam wrote: :( not saying its a good answer just an answer from the new ccp that listens to use, told only csm about this in august, and is trying to repair its rep with this in time for christmas.
The devs have talked about this from day one. There was ALWAYS talk of a space elevator, that controlled resource access, that would be ownable, and fought over. It wasn't implemented first time around, and everyone complained PI was complete carebear bullshit, with nothing competitive in the slightest way. They said from the beginning that reason to fight over resources would set the stage for Dust 514, and this is nothing but a long overdue iteration that has always been talked about and public information. Devs arent fleecing anyone. They're giving everyone the iteration on PI that has been promised, and begged for a year now, and *GASP* now people are bitching that they've finally done it. It just has a fancy name so people have ignorantly acted like this is some shocker suprise designed to destroy the pain-free activity they've grown accustomed to. This is extremely typical of the forums - players beg for a feature, than moan when they finally get it. Grow up everyone. You have to get off the nipple and onto solid foods eventually. Eve will always evolve. It will always get more challenging. It will ALWAYS go in the direction of handing more control over to players. Anyone not cool with that fundamental design element, should invest in a different game.
Nobody here voicing opposition because of increased risk of pvp. If you bothered to read (and more importantly, understand) the replies in this thread you will see what people are really opposed of: this particularly bad implementation of what supposed to be part of an amazing concept that links EVE and DUST worlds.
To me, the Devs did a good job on transforming Tyrannis PI to Incursion PI. The reception has been good, and it is good for a reason. People who did PI then and now knew the difference and saw the Incursion PI system is better. No need to over generalizing here. Yes, there are people who whine for everything, and there are people who whine for whiners. I guess you are referring to Incarna on your second paragraph. I am pretty sure the people who pushed for the idea of walk in station wanted a current implementation of Incarna--a single room with your avatar walking awkwardly due to bad control and ******** lightning effect.
Eve will always evolve and it's generally better to let players control more things in game... if the changes to implement makes sense. This particular implementation of being proposed here does not. I hope nothing has been finalized as there are only a handful tweaks needs to apply to lessen the negative impact before Christmas when this is finally implemented. |
Hilisis
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:09:00 -
[728] - Quote
Yes, lets make PI unprofitable for people who are working in low sec on PI while the rest of the corp is not interested in camping a customs office.
PI in low sec. will get ass raped by PvP corps moving into 100% tax people.
And if they try to move their PI to high sec. ... guess what, they might as well not bother, because with new prices, it will be impossible to make profit :D
THX CCP
I though you guys hired an economics guy, i take it he is just for show and has no clue on how majority of PI users go around doing their PI on their corp.
how about giving us single player owned structures .... and NOT ******* up the majority of playerbase in the mean time ? ... can CCP do that for a change. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
165
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:14:00 -
[729] - Quote
Sri Nova wrote:are these new offices meant to be dustable ?
If the Future Vision video is to be believed, what CCP has on the drawing board includes bigger customs offices (beanstalks in fact) and planetary defences. So for the immediate future, I can only see customs offices acting as chew toys for bored capital pilots, but once DUST514 and the appropriate DUST/EVE links are implemented, I wouldn't be surprised to find that dumping a fleet of super caps on a fully upgraded planet is tantamount to suicide.
As a planeteer, imagine for a moment the implications of having a customs office with ten times the capacity, and no export tax. You and your friends could exploit every available resource on that planet, arrange for it to be punted to the customs office, then drop by once in a blue moon to pick it up in a freighter: the "economies of scale" lead to this operation becoming extremely profitable even when you're harvesting resources that would cause you economic loss in hisec.
Now imagine that you had a few planeteers dedicated to harvesting resources, and a few planeteers dedicated to planetary defences: these are the guys who have trained the specialised PI skills for ground based doomsday weapons, contracting with DUST mercenaries, and probably have their own DUST corporation on the side. The security team arranges the planetary defences, builds the customs offices, collects the customs tariffs in order to fund the planetary defences, and when the super caps arrive to challenge your sovereignty over the planet, they lose a titan a minute to the planet-based and office-based static defenses.
So calculate the tariffs on what a null sec planet could produce if you exploited every resource sustainably, and there's your budget for defending that planet.
Even better, it's pretty well documented which planets you need to control in order to provide the appropriate resources to build or fuel POSes, so it's pretty easy to decide which of your enemies planets you need to interdict in order to wreak economic havoc upon them. Thus the cap pilots end up having a purpose when blowing stuff up, and the fights will actually be interesting because the enemy planet will by definition be there already.
How will this work out in reality? Perhaps the null sec folks will decide that planetary defences are a waste of ISK, and that it's cheaper to let the planet fall and just take it back later. All I know is that back in the days of "Reach For The Stars" and "Spaceward Ho", the best tactic was a combination of moderate defence and extreme offense. A planetary cannon/doomsday might only be enough to wipe a few dreadnoughts off the field before the planetary weapon is itself wiped out: each dreadnought still represents material loss to the invaders, so to me those planetary weapons are worthwhile investments.
Will ground defences like POSes where the installed defences use "Artificial Stupidity" in target selection, locking and firing on random targets and not shooting any one target long enough to be a threat? Or will planetary defences use something like Sleeper AI: picking a likely target and focussing on it until it's dead? Then a Dust combatant can choose to enter the facility and take over the controls, either not firing at anything (because there is no defending fleet), or firing at specific targets (because there is a defending fleet) as called by the attacker's FC?
Enough babbling for now. I'm looking forward to what CCP has in store in terms of the DUST/EVE link. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
165
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:18:00 -
[730] - Quote
Hilisis wrote:PI in low sec. will get ass raped by PvP corps moving into 100% tax people.
Which PvP corp will be more successful in low sec: the ones putting 100% tax on customs offices, or the ones putting a 10% tax on and opening the offices up to anyone? Remember, 100% of 0 is 0.
Quote:And if they try to move their PI to high sec. ... guess what, they might as well not bother, because with new prices, it will be impossible to make profit :D
If my prediction is wrong and the low sec PvP corps choose to 100% tax everything, the prices will skyrocket and hisec PI will actually be profitable.
I feel sorry for the people who are disappointed that in a massively multiplayer game, they would have to make friends and form a corporation in order to improve their position in the virtual economy.
The only concern I have for the short term is that customs offices will be nothing more than chew toys for capital pilots until decent planetary defences arrive. |
|
Adan Natrier
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:18:00 -
[731] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
It's my experience that in eve people will opt for control rather than a little profit on the side because the denial of a resource to potential enemies outweighs the isk, which they themselves use other means to get (or may even use just to isolate their planet for private use). It'd be trivial to make it happen without the wait and see prospect. In low sec, which is after all empire space, you could and probably should force the issue. If concord tax is going to be 11%, make the maximum cap at say, 15%. Prevent it being from being locked up to the public - and anonymize the tax data, including times e.g roll it up into one planetary export tax at downtime, so low sec pi ninjas can get their chance. Yeah, this is 'against' pvp - but that pvp is basically ganking a hauler, not exactly '~goodfites~'.
This is like sov lite, and gives low sec alliances the chance to exert some meaningful control to monetize real assets, not just use them as bait or totally shut down production to the enterprising small pi ninja (or 'entrepreneur', if you want). Small/medium alliances will compete to control the tax revenue, really small corps (individuals) that can't (and never will) become pvp oriented can still use low sec, aren't being forced out, and are incentivising someone to want to control the offices. It's like renting out your ports to companies rather than being state owned (i.e. like real life) - P&O don't get to say who uses the port, the government does. Thematically it's like concord contracting corps/alliances to take over this part of the universe. They get to administer it and take a cut. Now in 0.0 in your sov space that'd be different. Let them get shot down and lock out whomever the owner feels like, because they're the sov owner. I'm still pro to the idea of letting anyone anchor a CO though - not a lock and key held by the sov system, so that you have to actively police your space, especially the parts you're just sitting on to keep someone else from doing it.
I find myself quite enthusiastic about this idea. As others suggested I'd agree that leaving existing offices in place is a good idea, so production can tool up. And I'd also suggest to have a distinct spot customs offices will just spawn at when you anchor the office gantry, i.e. where they currently are. If you let people anchor them wherever, than they will find a way to put them within range of poses. Maybe you want that. Maybe not. |
Sleeping Lady
Ore Exploration Team
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:22:00 -
[732] - Quote
Why i will unsubscribe.
Week 1 : PvP Corps move in and set the tax 100% Week 2 : PI dies in low sec, because PI users isolated in different corps cant convince their corp the camp POCO's. Week 3 : Low sec PI moves to High sec. .. Week 4 : High sec. PI cant compete with 0.0 corps PI due to taxation Week 5 : People who were fascinated about PI will unsubscribe, because its not ******* worth the afford anymore. Week 6 : CCP wonders why new players consider PI a waste of ISK. Week 7 : since nobody ******* bothers with it any more, in order to decrease lag, CCP moves PI out of high and low sec. ..
The END |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:30:00 -
[733] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Hilisis wrote:PI in low sec. will get ass raped by PvP corps moving into 100% tax people. Which PvP corp will be more successful in low sec: the ones putting 100% tax on customs offices, or the ones putting a 10% tax on and opening the offices up to anyone? Remember, 100% of 0 is 0.
PVP corps would rather have the shiny killmail of a hauler filled with planet poop. tax rate doesn't matter. it's the fact that it'll get camped out by a stealth bomber or two waiting for a nice km. Which I'm probably gonna do btw. :))))
INDY TEARS COMMENCE!
|
Denidil
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
109
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:37:00 -
[734] - Quote
other than the BS increase in customs prices in highsec
POS fuels already cost enough.
Anyone who is blue to DRF are cowards and have failed Eve.
MM Bombers, Best Bombers |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:48:00 -
[735] - Quote
I have a hard time figuring out what the changes are supposed to do. For me it sounds mostly like adding a whole lot of trouble to PI without adding much game dynamics. I suppose it may fit into a larger plan related to Dust but it's hard for me to imagine how that would work.
Currently PI is a low effort, relatively low income activity that is somewhat tedius but still pay well enough for some people to attempt it. Prices of PI products are pretty high right now, as I'm sure most POS owners would acknowledge. Adding more work to PI would probably increase the prices, somewhat offsetting the increased workload. But that also affects a very large part of the Eve economy, pretty much anything related to T2 and T3 products and the cost of running POSes. I wonder how high CCP would like PI prices to be, and how they imagine this price increase would shape New Eden.
Currently I imagine that PI adds a bit of extra traffic outside hi-sec, which I think is a good thing. It adds some dynamics even if they are slight. But with the changes I see a risk that a lot of PI production would simply be moved to hi-sec to avoid the hassle. The added dynamic is a questionable ability to shoot more structures. Even if the majority of customs office becomes publicly available and add income to the owners, this doesn't really add much dynamics, but just a slight trickle of passive income. In effect just moving ISK around without player interaction. And there is still the risk that most offices will be private, held by thousands of landowners in their own little corners. I don't really see much potential in this. Would people wage wars for customs office? In player controlled null-sec maybe they would, but in low-sec and w-space I doubt it. There is simply too much room and too little gain for this to happen. Although maybe there is a potential for the occasional drive-by shooting by a bored fleet.
My overall feeling is that since PI is pretty insignificant in the first place both economically and in terms of gameplay - why even bother. Some posters in this thread have exclaimed "Deal with it!", and my initial reaction would be that ignoring PI completely would be the sensible way to deal with a change like this. Unfortunately we can't ignore it completely because it has become an essential building block of the universe.
Some more specific issues:
- Corporation roles. Corporation roles already are in a dire need for more granularity, effectively preventing organizations from growing organically. Having lived out of a wormhole for 2 years, I know everything about this. As another poster described so beautifully, either you give people the key to Fort Knox, or you tie them up so good that they need a Director's permission to go to the bathroom. There is no middle ground the way corporation roles are designed. Adding more bloat to this failing structure isn't good.
- Lack of stability Managing a PI network is a pretty static affair. When a network is set up it stays put, otherwise the owner is facing some substantial retooling costs. Both in terms of time and money. For this reason the owner needs to assume that nothing changes in the foreseeable future. If there is a risk that the customs office will be locked down, blown up, or taxes increased ten-fold then it may not be such a good idea to plant a command centre on that planet in the first place. Some kind of contract mechanic between the owners of PI networks and the owners of customs office would be needed. Trust isn't worth dipshit in Eve after all.
- Incentivising public customs offices When Eve players have the choice of locking something down, or allowing the public to enter, we tend to go for the lockdown. The small amounts of ISK that a customs office can generate won't change this. Sure there will be a few centralized locations that could generate plenty of tax income for the office owner, but taking the vastness of the universe into account most planets won't see much traffic. The only reasonable thing for someone investing in a customs office would be to keep it private. This is especially the case where public access is a big security risk, as it is in wormholes for instance. There are no dynamics to be had here, all it will do is keep individual players and small corps locked even tighter up in high-sec. |
Handsome Hussein
52
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 05:55:00 -
[736] - Quote
Candente wrote:Nobody here voicing opposition because of increased risk of pvp. If you bothered to read (and more importantly, understand) the replies in this thread you will see what people are really opposed of: this particularly bad implementation of what supposed to be part of an amazing concept that links EVE and DUST worlds. This.
I am not at all afraid of PvP or the implications of this PI implementation in terms of "making friends and enemies" (aside from the additional ******* work I'd have to put into my already short play time, relationships take work...) What I do take issue with is that it will cost me four customs offices to do what I do right now in low-sec. I know for a fact I could probably go in with some of the other tenants for two if they're up for it. That leaves two entirely funded by me.
Now, I could probably shoot a can up for a lot of this stuff; I'm going to try that tonight and see how I like it and whether it's worth the time. If I can't do it via can alone, it's not at all worth my time.
I run four planets small time for about 250mil/month. I have nothing to really worry about in the long run compared to some of these other folks, but I have to reiterate: This planned feature greatly inhibits a "job" in the list that small people like me can do in null- and low-sec. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
White Sharisa
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:18:00 -
[737] - Quote
I really do see this as a concern from someone like me that does PI in lowsec, sure call this a PI is broken rant if you like if not read on. I don't mind that you are making these changes in an attempt to make lowsec more inhabited and give the pirates an income and an invested interest to live there, by all means do but be reasonable.
As it stands sure you will make PI 5 times better in low and highsec but with giving the POCO owner the ability to set access restrictions to whatever level they like and to let them set the Customs costs if by off chance you get a pirate corp that will allow outsiders to use the POCO to anything they like its clear they will as there will be no incentive for the effort to protect this POCO i cannot see them allowing you access to it without paying through the ******* for it.
So as a non pirate your left with the option of hoping to god you beat these guys to it after patch DT to set one up and you won't be able to beat the blobs that will now move in for this feature. Or your left with the option of hoping to god they allow public access to the POCO but hope they don't charge obscene fees (I think we all know they will)
Last option is pretty much everyone that does PI in lowsec and not a part of a pirate corp/alliance will move back to highsec to the planets CCP think they have just buffed by 500% only to find thousands of other people forced to do the same thing.
Don't take this as a rant CCP i do like the concept behind the idea, but you have clearly ballsed this up on the first attempt. |
Laserham Lincoln
Dollars and Sense Inc. EVE Trade Consortium
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:22:00 -
[738] - Quote
I think that this is a very bad idea for low sec. With no passive defense, the PCO will become an easy target for any fleet with even the slightest inclination towards griefing or hassling people. There are two main problems with this:
1) The cost of building a PCO is prohibitive. It seems like these things will not last long in low sec, and with them being so expensive, I see people rapidly giving up.
2) With greater tax rates and risk from flying to structures that are going to frequently be under attack, pilots who brave low sec for greater PI returns will give up and stick to high sec. This will further reduce the number of pilots in low sec, which is bad. Low sec is already pretty anemic.
PI was one of the few economic activities that an individual or small corps could engage in in a meaningful way in low sec or 0.0. As it's currently described, the PCO system will give larger groups the ability to totally shut down an individual or small corp's ability to do PI. Not everyone wants to be part of a giant alliance. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:24:00 -
[739] - Quote
Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?
Cause here's the scenario:
- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue - Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got) - Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail - Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue - Corp waits for next sucker
Hence a searchability function is essential! |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:26:00 -
[740] - Quote
White Sharisa wrote:I really do see this as a concern from someone like me that does PI in lowsec, sure call this a PI is broken rant if you like if not read on. I don't mind that you are making these changes in an attempt to make lowsec more inhabited and give the pirates an income and an invested interest to live there, by all means do but be reasonable.
As it stands sure you will make PI 5 times better in low and highsec but with giving the POCO owner the ability to set access restrictions to whatever level they like and to let them set the Customs costs if by off chance you get a pirate corp that will allow outsiders to use the POCO to anything they like its clear they will as there will be no incentive for the effort to protect this POCO i cannot see them allowing you access to it without paying through the ******* for it.
So as a non pirate your left with the option of hoping to god you beat these guys to it after patch DT to set one up and you won't be able to beat the blobs that will now move in for this feature. Or your left with the option of hoping to god they allow public access to the POCO but hope they don't charge obscene fees (I think we all know they will)
Last option is pretty much everyone that does PI in lowsec and not a part of a pirate corp/alliance will move back to highsec to the planets CCP think they have just buffed by 500% only to find thousands of other people forced to do the same thing.
Don't take this as a rant CCP i do like the concept behind the idea, but you have clearly ballsed this up on the first attempt.
I can definitely see where you're coming from, but smart pirates will set one up and not charge a whole lot. most likely, they'll charge less than high-sec in order to make it profitable for them. How? Well, seeing as there won't be many of these in a system (3-5 maybe) they'll be very easy to afk camp with a cloaked up bomber/recon/T3. It's not the tax rates or access to PI that bothers me. It's actually getting it out that's going to be the trouble. I'm seeing the use of battleships and deep space transports with lot's of warp stabs doing PI hauls. That means less output as you'll be able to carry MUCH less off planet at a time unless you can set up some sort of courier contract directly from the POCO to the nearest high sec system for some intrepid low-sec resident to try. BUT then that goes right back to the POCOs being camped by stealth ships. |
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:27:00 -
[741] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?
Cause here's the scenario:
- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue - Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got) - Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail - Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue - Corp waits for next sucker
Hence a searchability function is essential!
Btw the only way to fix this - is to make POCO's dockable....
yep that's right a totally ridiculos suggestion, but I'm starting to think that is what it would take to fix this very real scenario |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:28:00 -
[742] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?
Cause here's the scenario:
- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue - Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got) - Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail - Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue - Corp waits for next sucker
Hence a searchability function is essential!
THIS OMG THIS!!!
count me in btw....in a bomber, not a transport. LOL
EDIT: Also, the wallet blink from the tax revenue is a dead give away that someone is using your POCO, essentially alerting people to neutral activity, creating impromptu gate camps. Pirates won't need to camp a POCO, just be in station or a safe waiting for the flashy flashy:
Step 1.) pirate sees wallet flash from PI taxes. Step 2.) pirate undocks and warps to the out gate Step 3.).... Step 4.) PROFIT!!! |
White Sharisa
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:34:00 -
[743] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:White Sharisa wrote:I really do see this as a concern from someone like me that does PI in lowsec, sure call this a PI is broken rant if you like if not read on. I don't mind that you are making these changes in an attempt to make lowsec more inhabited and give the pirates an income and an invested interest to live there, by all means do but be reasonable.
As it stands sure you will make PI 5 times better in low and highsec but with giving the POCO owner the ability to set access restrictions to whatever level they like and to let them set the Customs costs if by off chance you get a pirate corp that will allow outsiders to use the POCO to anything they like its clear they will as there will be no incentive for the effort to protect this POCO i cannot see them allowing you access to it without paying through the ******* for it.
So as a non pirate your left with the option of hoping to god you beat these guys to it after patch DT to set one up and you won't be able to beat the blobs that will now move in for this feature. Or your left with the option of hoping to god they allow public access to the POCO but hope they don't charge obscene fees (I think we all know they will)
Last option is pretty much everyone that does PI in lowsec and not a part of a pirate corp/alliance will move back to highsec to the planets CCP think they have just buffed by 500% only to find thousands of other people forced to do the same thing.
Don't take this as a rant CCP i do like the concept behind the idea, but you have clearly ballsed this up on the first attempt. I can definitely see where you're coming from, but smart pirates will set one up and not charge a whole lot. most likely, they'll charge less than high-sec in order to make it profitable for them. How? Well, seeing as there won't be many of these in a system (3-5 maybe) they'll be very easy to afk camp with a cloaked up bomber/recon/T3. It's not the tax rates or access to PI that bothers me. It's actually getting it out that's going to be the trouble. I'm seeing the use of battleships and deep space transports with lot's of warp stabs doing PI hauls. That means less output as you'll be able to carry MUCH less off planet at a time unless you can set up some sort of courier contract directly from the POCO to the nearest high sec system for some intrepid low-sec resident to try. BUT then that goes right back to the POCOs being camped by stealth ships.
I have never had transport issues and TBH i don't think the changes will affect this i currently have 9 toons doing PI on countless Lowsec planets and the added bullshit factor this has added to that operation means i will just shut it down and move it to high sec for the equal to lowsec returns they just gave me. What they haven't added is an incentive for me to keep any of my operation in lowsec nothing at all.
Again i am doubtful for the cost of maintaining and protecting their new asset and the risks it now comes with i am highly doubtful they would allow access or charge a reasonable fee for letting indy noobs like me to use it. So back to highsec with all the other thousands of people i will go. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:36:00 -
[744] - Quote
I don't know in which lowsec space parts you people are doing your PI, but I haven't seen an awful lot of planets that are being used for PI. The idea that a "local pirate corp" could set them up and make some sort of return on their investment by setting up reasonable taxrates is hilarious. Nobody is using most of these planets to begin with.
I run a nice little production scheme in lowsec consisting of 5 planets to produce Rocket Fuel. It comes down to about 300 mil per month which isn't a huge deal, but it's nice and it doesn't take a lot of effort other than hauling stuff around every 2-3 days. Of course, once this "feature" comes out, I'll be forced to fork out 400 million isk (+train associated skills) to set up custom offices that can then be blown up in an hour or so by some bored pirates of which there are - trust me- plenty. On top of that pirates will now also know what to camp instead of having to guess and thus not bother.
So what will happen is I will stop doing PI, miss out on 300mil a month and spend the time I now spend hauling to run another anom or mission. Others will move it to hisec and once again lowsec will not be worth anyone's time.
I can see player controlled offices work for nulsec. It makes sense for WH space. It's utterly pointless for lowsec. If anything, lowsec offices should be cheaper than hisec ones so there is more profit to be had and people are given an incentive to do stuff in lowsec. |
Deyionu
The Maverick Navy Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:42:00 -
[745] - Quote
I'm not sure which side of the fence I want to be on this one. I like the idea of putting more NPC controlled items into the hands of the players. But this just screams of to many unknowns. As the players we don't have access to the data so right now it just seems something that this is being forced for little to no reason and just might be another feature that is half baked and in the end adds little to no content.
So first off a few questions. You stated that 50% of PI comes from high-sec. How much comes from low-sec and also how much comes from null-sec? What % of planets are used in each sec? What % of each planet type is used in each sec? Whats the avg player per planet ratio?
The last one is very important since so far I see "BUT YOU CAN TAX OTHERS" being the main "feature" of spending at min 75mil for these PCO. If they don't generate the desire tax income no one in their right mind will spend the ISK to put these out there being "landlords". The only people that will is the people that are forced to because of current PI production. Not to mention it will really suck for the people that happen to be the ONLY person on a planet. They are forced to shell out something along the lines of 2 years worth of taxes that can be easily be griefed by a single person or by medium sized gang (or larger) that the avg person won't be able to take on. Since the lost of even a BC doesn't justify protecting these structures since it would be more cost efficient just letting the PCO be killed and just placing a new one. Once that happens to many times you'll just see people move to high-sec. In this case its who will get bored/pissed off first, the attacker having to come back every other day or the guy having to buy and anchor the PCO.
Speaking of which I don't think that has been addressed yet. I assume if this structure is blown up everyone that had items stored in it would loss everything? Would any of the items drop as loot for the attackers?
I have to say whats currently being presented works EXTREMELY well for null-sec. Since the resident will most likely be using the resources around them and will be able to react if anything comes under attack. This idea doesn't work very well for low sec or WH PI. If anything its going to push even more people to run their PI in high sec and make low sec even less of an incentive to move people to/operate in.
But I really think the whole idea needs a overhaul. First off for high-sec make taxes based on standing to the controlling empire. Have it vary from 10 to 30% based on standing. 10% being +4.0 or higher and the extreme of 30% for someone with really bad standing. This can be carried over to low sec also so that it may promote something in faction warfare. For everything else have each player pay the current 5% (or w/e it is).
For new content allow players to centralize all outputted from planets within a system to a POS module and also allow it to be routed back down to the planets. First the player has to build and anchor a PCO at each planet they want to route to the POS. Second have a structure that is anchored outside of the POS that acts as the hub/storage (15km like a JB is a nice compromise). Force highest tier goods produced to always be routed to the hub (cant be stored on planet).
If an attacker wants he can incap the hub like any other POS module. This will stop all transfers to and from the planet but a planet will continue to make goods locally until the hub is repaired or is destroyed. If a hub is destroyed ALL PCO will be lost as well.
Since highest tier good is forced to be routed to the hub it provides a little incentive for people to actually want to blow them up to get something for their effort. The upkeep and potential lost of a POS I think is a balance for eliminating the need for people to move stuff from planet to planet to make higher tier goods.
I would like the idea of this being controlled remotely like the planets. Slap on a skill to use it and make the requirements somewhat high (since only people that would be using this would be people with 5 or more planets and high command center).
Lastly for null sec add something you can throw into the ihub that increases output on all planets in system by some % for each lvl.
Phew that was a lot of typing. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
168
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:42:00 -
[746] - Quote
Sleeping Lady wrote:Week 1 : PvP Corps move in and set the tax 100%
A corp that sets too high a tax rate isn't going to get any takers. Even if you're using PI as bait for those killmails to show how skilled you are at blowing up slow, fat, defenceless ships, you still need to have someone take the bait.
So you set up an 80M ISK bait. You set the tax rate to something that the Planeteers will actually use, then start blowing them up as they come to use that planet. Oh wait GÇö you don't because they're naturally skittish creatures and won't so much as decloak their blockade runner if there's an unknown face in local.
In the meantime you start finding that another couple of million ISK a week isn't actually hurting your wallet at all: in fact, it makes sense to own more customs offices and encourage Planeteers to use your systems. No longer are you entirely reliant on grinding stupid L4 missions for your income: with a dozen-odd planets under your belt you can spend more time out in space collecting killmails of fail fit Rifters and Myrmidons!
Then you get the big fish poking their noses around: a few super capitals drop by to have a nibble, and you get to score some worthwhile killmails of foolish titan/supercarrier pilots who didn't realise just how heavily that planet was defended.
Which would you prefer on your kill board: a few dozen blockade runners, or one super carrier?
So in effect, Planeteers are the burley. The customs offices are the bait, and the fish you're actually hunting is overconfident capital/super capital pilots: and you have a decent income to support your planetary defence and Dust Puppies.
Or you could opt for a low sec devoid of purpose and entirely barren of any life and activity, and simply kill any Planeteers who happen by.
Choices & consequences. Sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Your choice coming back around to impact your future.
|
Destiny Forgotten
BLIZZARDBEARD AND SPARKLELORD NINJA ADVENTURES
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:44:00 -
[747] - Quote
first off, i think this is brilliant and fun. While the intention and idea for what it could mean and what the actual norm will be are going to be a bit off. It will not only generate more revenue for corps across the board, it will surly drive the prices of all PI materials up, as I can see this being more a draw for non Indy players than the working class. For Null Sec this will be great in helping keep corporations going and fueling the war/indy machines. In low sec, where smaller corps and players risk much to make out a living this will most likely end PI in a number of areas. As piracy will be dominate and only large low sec corps will have a chance of surviving or paying a merc corp to assist them. And if said corp is large enough for that, they most likely would be in null. I have hopes, but not high ones. Still a great idea, don't get me wrong, players should be in control of everything |
ovenproofjet
The Illuminatii Mildly Intoxicated
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:47:00 -
[748] - Quote
I would personally like that thank CCP for all the carebear tears this is/going to create |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
168
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:49:00 -
[749] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Of course, once this "feature" comes out, I'll be forced to fork out 400 million isk (+train associated skills) to set up custom offices that can then be blown up in an hour or so by some bored pirates of which there are - trust me- plenty. On top of that pirates will now also know what to camp instead of having to guess and thus not bother.
I'm sure that there will be other people looking for "good fights" hanging out looking for bored pirates to shoot, too. Customs offices provide a point of interest to head to that is not a gate or station. No jumping games, no docking games, just honest to goodness shooting each other in the face fights.
That's not taking into consideration any orbital or planetary defences that might eventually be in place.
|
CLERIC01
Clerics Corp
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:50:00 -
[750] - Quote
Why does most things ccp do always seem to lean towards low and null space,how about making it more of an experiance for the people that dont want to venture into low sec like moon mining from a pos and now this customs office |
|
Trespasser
Isotope Incorporated Exiled Collective
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 06:52:00 -
[751] - Quote
ovenproofjet wrote:I would personally like that thank CCP for all the carebear tears this is/going to create
i have a feeling you will be singing a different tune when a large tower costs 5-600mill a month in fuel
|
White Sharisa
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:03:00 -
[752] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:ovenproofjet wrote:I would personally like that thank CCP for all the carebear tears this is/going to create i have a feeling you will be singing a different tune when a large tower costs 5-600mill a month in fuel
While i am sitting on over 60000 units of rocket fuel i need to move out of lowsec i am wishing i had of done more robotics, but you work with what you've got. I am doubtful i will bother selling anymore until after this is implemented.
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
168
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:04:00 -
[753] - Quote
CLERIC01 wrote:Why does most things ccp do always seem to lean towards low and null space,how about making it more of an experiance for the people that dont want to venture into low sec like moon mining from a pos and now this customs office
Because EVE Online is a PvP-focussed game, and CCP wants to provide more toys in the sandbox for the kids to fight over?
I share your sentiment to some degree though: why can't we have PCOs in hisec too? We have wardecs to take care of structures anchored in hisec, and this will ensure that there is a dynamic "ceiling" on PI product prices: hisec planetary production is such low yield that the goods would have to be massively inflated for anyone to decide that it was worth anchoring a PCO.
With the PCOs already placed by CONCORD, there is no possibility of removing them, and the fact that they are omnipresent means that the cost of a PCO will never factor into hisec PI production. At the very least, hisec PCOs should be owned by a wardec-able corp, allowing players to wardec the corp and blow up its hisec assets: for example Roden Shipyards in Gallente space (so if you wardec Roden Shipyards, you'll have to fight your way off star gates).
Heck, if there was only a minimal upkeep requirement, I'd be right in there with the wardecs, seeing how quickly I can upgrade to a beanstalk simply because I think they're cool :)
Well, right up until someone wardecs my beanstalk corporation and takes my shiny thing away |
mkint
152
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:20:00 -
[754] - Quote
PI was a good idea until the devs got their hands on it. Apparantly they are doing the same with PCOs.
What I like most is how flippantly dismissive CCP Omen is being with player concerns. Smells like the promise of CCP failure. PI itself has always been a failure. It needs to be completely wiped out and rebuilt from the ground up by someone who actually plays EVE. |
Hawkwar
M.I.M.M.S The Watchmen.
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:28:00 -
[755] - Quote
This wasn't broken why are you "fixing" it? Go fix stuff that is broken before breaking PI.
This is just going to push the little corps out of the PI market and make it easier for the larger alliances to make even more money...... way to go CCP. Do any of you guys actually read what you write before you post or even think critically about this stuff? |
Afandi
Paradise Delivery
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:29:00 -
[756] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.
Regards Omen
I'm sorry for the offensive tone, but - Really, Omen, really? Use the crappy high-sec planets, that are of almost no use with the yields they have now?
I have 6 planets with PI in low sec. So, if these changes go live, I'm going to be presented with a nice we-will-take-your-kidney bill for POCOs, 90% of the cost being BPCs , since I neither FW, nor do Incursions regularly to have LPs from CONCORD.
Or I'lll have to endure the taxes of a bigger corporation. Blah.
"Hey, look, nice changes to PI...nope, Chuck Testa."
|
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:34:00 -
[757] - Quote
How about doubling the capacity of the rocket so it at least can be considered an alternative to the PCO for exports?
When corps start to monopolize planets as they realize there is more profit to gain that way due to raising market prices, it would be nice if there were some other way to get the goods off planet. There is still a quite substantial fee for using the rocket and I would still not be able to import to the planet. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:34:00 -
[758] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
For you to produce stuff and launch it into space, it must be worth enough to cover the cost of launching it. Since the presence of a PCO provides cheaper option for exporting goods from the planet, those who use PCOs will be relying on the tax income from a number of people using the planet. A PCO will soak up the profit of one planeteer for 6 months at current prices. With the advent of destructible Customs Offices, expect to see all PI materials rise in price.
That customs offices will remain in hisec is a disappointment GÇö they would have been a nice target for wardecs, and having them provided free and forever by CONCORD provides another bias towards hisec away from lowsec.
PCO is most definitely a feature intended for null sec, especially considering it is possible to set the tax rate to 0%, which immediately provides a material advantage over hisec.
I don't disagree with much you said, but it's not the whole picture.
You assume that a PCO will be profitable. I don't see how it can be, not within a time frame that is on par with other ways to invest your ISK. So it makes sense to invest your ISK in other ways where there is greater return.
I really suspect that putting up PCO's will be pretty much ignored by alliances, since the alliance wouldn't benefit much from them, and it's 1 more thing to deal with. That leaves it to alliance members to make the investment, and guess what, they can't because they dont have the roles to do so. Basically null sec alliances, and perhaps WH corps won't screw with them, they have better more profitable things to do with their time.
I would love to see the proportions of PI stuff coming from high sec, low sec, null, and WH. If my guess is correct, the greatest proportion comes from low sec. WH logistics is a PITA getting to market. Null sec alliance members are doing some, but are probably more interested in PvPing, running plexes and ratting. I don't see that changing.
A big part of your argument is that PCO's will be profitable, both to operate, and to use as a PI.
Here's some real world numbers. Current tax rate is a 5% tariff, doubling to 10% in high sec after this is implemented.
I just got some 1960 units of reactive metals from a CO, and spent 1489 in taxes, and that would go to 2978 (if it were high sec). If I used a PCO, that had it's tax rate set at 100%, I would have paid 29780 in taxes. That's 1 days production, so in a month, I would spend 893400 in taxes. At command center lvl 4 skill, that's maxed production for that planet. If I had lvl 5 skills, I could add about 17% to that by adding 3 more extractor heads, to my max of 20. That brings the max income from me to the PCO owner to 1,045,278 ISK per month.
So in 80 months, you would start to see a profit assuming I was the only person there, and you never get attacked. Now lets also assume that there are 10 people on the planet doing PI, and they are all doing the same amount as I am. In 8 months, you would start to see a profit, and your max profit per month would be just over 10mil? Also, don't ignore the fact that I am sure many people don't use PI to maximum effect and that some are idle a considerable amount of time. I don't think planets can sustain 10 people doing PI on them, not with depletion the way it is. Where is the money????
For there to be incentive for me to use your PCO, your tax rate must be lower that my launch costs. If it costs more in taxes than to launch, I launch all I can and only use you when I have no other choice. You might screw around with your PCO settings, so I can't get my materials, and there is the risk of getting ganked while picking up materials at a PCO. If I launch, I don't have either of those risks. I suspect that currently it is less expensive to launch than it is to pay 100% tax. This means that you would make less in taxes since you don't tax all I produce.
According to the dev blog, they are "Making planetary taxation a profitable business!" and " EVE Online should not be about bowing to NPC authority, it should be about player-to-player interactions".
I think I made a case that a planetary taxation is not profitable given the numbers CCP gave us. Since profitability is questionable, PCO's would be rare, there would be few to attack and few to camp, thereby decreasing the desired player to player interactions from it's current state. You just go to the launch, pick up your stuff and go. It's safer than going to a PCO that might be camped.
You might make an argument that PCO owners would get import taxes as well as export taxes. I can have a production planet in high sec, where resource density is absolutely meaningless since I am extracting nothing, and only pay 10% in both import and export taxes.
It costs me 15 ISK to export a unit of reactive metals. It costs me 6000 ISK to export a robotics. It requires 106 units of processed materials to make 1 unit of robotics. So the more I produce on a planet, the more tax I pay. It only costs me 1600 ISK to export enough processed materials to make a unit of robotics. The clear incentive, dont make higher tier stuff on a planet with high taxes.
Since it was not mentioned in the blog, one must assume that a major change to the economy, the proportions and relative values of products thereof, is not the desired outcome.
I don't think this kills PI. I think it changes it from a state where the use of a CO is almost assumed, to one where the products are launched are almost assumed. Not because of high tax rates, but because no one builds PCO's. |
Aubrey Addams
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:45:00 -
[759] - Quote
I like the changes, but not interested in PI any more with these changes. I won't like to log in to the game after work to see that my offices were destroyed while I was offline. So if PI was this from the beggining, I would not spent skill points for it. That's why I like my skill points waste on PI back.
|
Jackeroo
Operations Control United Pod Service
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:46:00 -
[760] - Quote
I like it
But have a question and some ideas from my point of view:
First, is there an ancoring and onlining time for the customs office? I think this is important.
Ideas for 0.0: The customs offices should fit more in the sov mechanics and players should have a benefit when holding sov.
1. Give a hp bonus for every sov level if you are the sov holder
2. Implement new pos modules to protect those offices. For example a shield emitter array. You can ancor this at a pos nearby and it boosts the hp as well or you have to destroy it befor the office is vulnerable (a little bit like a cyno jammer).
3. Maybe there is a way to install some corp based planetary structures to defend your office. But this makes more sense when you release dust514.
/JACK |
|
WisdomLikeSilence
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
57
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:49:00 -
[761] - Quote
"a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time."
True: a guy could just wander into a system, warp to an office, take a few potshots, and set off alert mails all over the place.
But this is not a drawback. In lowsec it is notoriously hard to get a fight. Now, hunters of men know they can simply sit in their cloaky tengus beside an office and just wait... |
Coo gan
Clint Eastwood Appreciation Society
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 07:58:00 -
[762] - Quote
OMEN
WHEN?
I see all the same information being answered as posted in the actual blog, yet when you're being pressed for time scale of when these changes are being put in, you haven't yet answered. (Albeit I've only trawled through the first 10 pages)
Can you put the date/patch timescale in the devblog for all to see. |
Dragnkat
HAMMER STAR BLADE Universal Paranoia Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 08:04:00 -
[763] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Sleeping Lady wrote:Week 1 : PvP Corps move in and set the tax 100% A corp that sets too high a tax rate isn't going to get any takers. Even if you're using PI as bait for those killmails to show how skilled you are at blowing up slow, fat, defenceless ships, you still need to have someone take the bait. So you set up an 80M ISK bait. You set the tax rate to something that the Planeteers will actually use, then start blowing them up as they come to use that planet. Oh wait GÇö you don't because they're naturally skittish creatures and won't so much as decloak their blockade runner if there's an unknown face in local. In the meantime you start finding that another couple of million ISK a week isn't actually hurting your wallet at all: in fact, it makes sense to own more customs offices and encourage Planeteers to use your systems. No longer are you entirely reliant on grinding stupid L4 missions for your income: with a dozen-odd planets under your belt you can spend more time out in space collecting killmails of fail fit Rifters and Myrmidons! Then you get the big fish poking their noses around: a few super capitals drop by to have a nibble, and you get to score some worthwhile killmails of foolish titan/supercarrier pilots who didn't realise just how heavily that planet was defended. Which would you prefer on your kill board: a few dozen blockade runners, or one super carrier? So in effect, Planeteers are the burley. The customs offices are the bait, and the fish you're actually hunting is overconfident capital/super capital pilots: and you have a decent income to support your planetary defence and Dust Puppies. Or you could opt for a low sec devoid of purpose and entirely barren of any life and activity, and simply kill any Planeteers who happen by. Choices & consequences. Sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Your choice coming back around to impact your future.
There's only one word for this scenario actually happening anywhere within the realm of eve reality.
Delusional.
The same goes for Omen actually thinking that corps are gonna just plunk this effort down for perfect strangers in low sec (as we all know 0.0 and W-space corps will just smoke anyone coming in)
Add me to the "do you even play this game???" crowd.
BTW i'd love to hear how any small scale corp or the screwed over ninja PI'ers are going to field a fleet to take on those cap ships you expect to come a nibbling.
News flash this is EVE, and if there's one thing I've learned about this game it's if you can screw someone over, lock someone out, deny someone a resource, or grief because you can (waves to goons in ice fields) players can and WILL do it. And anyone expecting someone to just open up a PCO for neuts out of the goodness of their heart is a complete and utter moron. Same for anyone who would let others into their space for PI to drain resources and intel gather.
Me: Dear alliance, can you waste 100 million of your isk x 4 so I can donate a pittance into your wallet every few days to do my PI in your space? Oh and have no means to defend your PCO, that and since it's the only custom office in town it paints a big giant camp here bullseye for anyone wanting to blow up my blockade runner?
Alliance: why sure, and pay no attention to all those stealth bombers in the area, they're your "escort fleet" It's not like we'd EVER steal your goods after getting your tax money too, and the trouble of having to defend another blobable structure in case a few griefers come looking for jollies, you let us worry about that.
Heavy on the sacarsm perhaps but I try to picture myself asking total strangers to go through that much trouble for my profit margin, and the risk/reward factor for both them and me now seems totally not worth it if these changes go through as is.
And at their current rate and timers **** rockets. Never mind that not one single PI setup I have is linked to my command centers anyway....
Oh well back to high sec I go. Least if the inflation does get crazy it might make the bread crumbs i'm getting off planets worth it. |
Lazor Razor
Shen's Heroes Fade 2 Black
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 08:05:00 -
[764] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
This won't work in most w-space however. Wormhole space is often quite isolated and getting resources in and productions out is sometimes difficult enough as it is. Invaders into a wormhole system can now force the defenders to fight outside the protection of their POS or lose their only fuel source. Also, you cannot pay mercs to protect your installations since the mercs probably won't be able to find their own way inside.
Other concerns is the fact that without defenses there isn't really any risk in taking shots at one of these (other than being in that system in general to begin with), while you will need a fleet to protect whatever ship has to repair it. Defenses, at least, would deter pure griefers and make people have to plan on taking these things out and only do it when there is a tactical or strategical need to do so.
I also find this idea less than ideal for the fact that PI today is not that profitable, even in null, and at least in w-space without static route to k-space is way too much maintenance to do for anything other than own pos fuel needs really. Putting this huge ammount of extra maintenance on it, and creating such serious security issues around it, sounds like a pretty heavy hit on wormhole corps and their business in particular. Has this been considered? And is it perhaps even a silent goal of the change? |
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 08:43:00 -
[765] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Cailais wrote:Helothane wrote:Cailais wrote:Helothane wrote:So those who belong to an NPC corp cannot extract from planets in low sec, unless someone else has set up a customs office at that planet and allows other corps to use it? If the player can't have roles, then he/she cannot set up a customs office.
I dunno you could like use the launch pad and rocket the stuff up? C. As mentioned before, that is very limited in terms of volume. There is a timer after you launch before you can do so again, and it isn't trivial. Then just use a planet with someones custom office on it - you're paying tax as it is now anyway: just this time the ISK goes to another player, rather than an NPC ISK sink. C. you forgot to mention that it'll be ALOT more isk coming out of your pocket to another player and not the standard CONCORD tax. I foresee tax rates in excess of 20-30% being the norm in low sec.
AH but that's where it gets really interesting: if a corp is pressuring PI manufacturers with high tax rates what will be the result? I think it will vary but we might anticipate:
- Migration away from those systems (perhaps an incentive for the owning corp to lower its tax rate?
- Tax rate 'wars' between Corps
- PI manufacturers banding together (mutual support, removal of high tax corps etc)
- Low tax rates as an incentive for players to join a corp, or to operate in its region / systems
Critically its a LOT more interaction between players - and while that might not be great for a specific individual surely that's good for the game?
C. |
Lisa Tayside
Force of Nature
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 08:44:00 -
[766] - Quote
I still don't understand where I can get the CO BPC. The original dev blog says that it will be available in CONCORD LP shop but in addition I can get 50% discount as FW participant. So the question is: could I buy this BPC from LP shops of FW corporations or not? |
Makhar
WEPRA CORP White Noise.
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 08:47:00 -
[767] - Quote
Simvastatin Montelukast wrote:Are these things going to show up on kill mails?
Perfect place to get easy kills if nobody else is around.
Liu Ellens wrote:Do I read this right, these things are pretty much defenseless (apart from their 24 hour timer)? No guns, no... nothing? Sounds like perfect 'shoot here for practise' signs
The RF timer gives you plenty of time to organise defences at a time which suits you rather than the attacker. Seems fine to me. Unless of course you want a risk-free way of making money with no effort involved after the initial setup?
Didona Carpenito wrote: =HP scpecification= * Customs Office Gantry ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 500,000 ** Structure: 300,000
* Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000
Not as if they're that all that easy to kill. |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 08:55:00 -
[768] - Quote
thank you thank you ccp if this is coming |
Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:00:00 -
[769] - Quote
Chaos Incarnate wrote:Jake Centauri wrote:The combat players love the change. The industrial players hate it. That about sums it up. No, the combat players hate it too because it involves more shooting at structures with tons of hp, ie that thing we already hate about sov warfare and POSs
I predict that they'll hate it even more when the Customs Office is brimming with DUSTies on the warpath because they failed to control access to their PI resources.
|
Zaphiem
The Mad Capsuleer Scientists D-Collective
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:10:00 -
[770] - Quote
I appreciate CCP trying to give players more control about the world they live in. However, in this case I believe this a bad idea. High sec planets have such a low resource yield that it is barely worth doing PI on them, so the smart producers set up their planets in lowsec space. A lot of those people are industrial corporations, many of them being very small (not to mention all those single pilots), who can't commit the people and resources to defend a corp owned customs office in lowsec. If you play eve for a while you will very soon realize, that everything that can be used for griefing will be used for griefing. Entire alliances exist for the purpose of griefing and they gain absolutely nothing from it besides the "fun" of "harvesting tears". So it is a silly idea that there will rarely be people who shoot customs offices for fun. I guarantee you that if you're not a big alliance that actually "controls" a lowsec system, your customs office, if you actually manage to put one up, will be attacked and destroyed after a few days or weeks, even if the attacker has to wait 24 hours to finish the job and even if you want to run a customs office for the benefit of everyone with no access restrictions and no taxes. Especially since any dreadnought pilot out there can easily do it. Thousands of pirates roam lowsec systems all the time, most of them won't have any interest in PI, they live for causing other players losses and will jump at the new opportunity. No amount of "monitoring the situation" by your side, dear CCP, is going to prevent that. So what basically is going to happen is that most of the efficient PI that now exists in lowsec will be castrated and small industrial players who need it to fuel POSs will only be able to continue it with irritating launches, the prices of planetary commodities will increase probably a lot (as if pos fuels weren't expensive enough already with the goons' ice project at the moment). Like I said, I too like more control for the players, but in this case with the griefing culture in eve I just can't think of any way this will make things better and more fun for the majority of players. |
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Lazor Razor
Shen's Heroes Fade 2 Black
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:15:00 -
[771] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
First of all, a corp living in w-space that allows strangers in their system are pure idiots and WILL lose their system sooner than later, or at least make a lot of unnecessary losses. If you own a WH system, lock it down. Hard! Secondly, since a WH corp uses PI mainly for fuel, and not for getting rich (the sleepers make them rich) and the planets will yield them less fuel if strangers use them also, why in the name of all gods would they set their CO:s to allow strangers to use them for some veeeeery small taxation incomes? That makes absolutely no sense.
If YOU who is developing this knows so little about how people are actually playing the game, HOW do you have any hopes on making changes that fits well into that game? All you apparantly have acces to is statistics and code. This scares me a great deal. |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies The 20 Minuters
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:19:00 -
[772] - Quote
So far my judgement is that for lowsec and NPC null this going to be a negative change (people in wormholes and sov null should profit from greater control). When the dust settles a few months after the feature has been deployed I think that in lowsec we will see that minor local power blocks will effectively control the customs offices. And independent small pure industrialist entities will have no choice but to move their PI to hisec. In Metro/Heimater where I know the situation best this will boil down to BANE, -EM- (+greater anti-pirate coalition) and some local FW powers.
Smaller entities, basically anybody that can't muster enough of a 24 hour around the clock presence to discourage bored cap pilots with no interest in local PI from shooting the customs offices or enough of cap force of their own to defend/repair them are **** out of luck and basically at the mercy of anybody that wants to **** with them.
It further affects the way that PI setups operate because if you want to export materials on one planet to import them on another (factory) planet you'll need at least guaranteed access to the factory planet (the export planets can always still launch into space if all else fails that will be tedious and no fun at all but at least it's an option). If I can't have that access guarantee on a factory planet in lowsec (unless I build a customs office that a pure industrialist has no way of defending), it makes hisec the best option, meaning that I will start exporting goods from lowsec to hisec something I was lead to believe CCP did not want to encourage, well then don't make me/us.
I think the change makes sense in wormholes and null, in wormholes the inhabitants can due to wormhole mechanics effectively control and defend them with a smaller group of players, in nullsec well sovereign space is called sovereign for a reason. But in lowsec and npc null it will simply force smaller industrialists out or force us into league with local PvP entities creating more powerblocs something I was also lead to believe CCP doesn't want
We'll have to see how it plays out but I urge CCP to reconsider applying this to lowsec and null npc, until after they have a good idea of the results in other parts of EVE as you can't really roll a change like this back (people will have invested in infrastructure by then). |
BoneEater
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:20:00 -
[773] - Quote
Quick CCP, release the FW blog to divert attention away from this |
Silver Kid
Aurora Tech. Bloodbound.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:42:00 -
[774] - Quote
Reading the posts here i remembered a little bit of lore about titans.
Quote:Their mind-boggling mass can cause small ships to become trapped in the gravity bow-wave before them. A few of these vessels are massive enough that their presence affects planetary tidal patterns. One notable incident occurred on the small agricultural world of Goral, where a Gallente Titan moving into orbit caused an abrupt shift in tides, which flooded crop fields and farmland. The decrease in food production meant that the entire system, which depended on Goral for food stock, had to be supplied by merchants or face starvation. Since then, Titan navigation systems have been programmed with fail-safes to prevent them from approaching a planet so closely.
Wouldn't it be possible to make the biggest of the capital ships like the titan and the mothership unable to jump to the POCO because of the above and that would boost carrier, dread and sub-cap fights.
Anyway my two cents. |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
1002
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:43:00 -
[775] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc.
Y'all might want to document and publicize that, otherwise some people are going to find their PI goods teleported to an enemy-held station. And at least us WH guys will get a free shipment to somewhere.
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Also, popping my dev post cherry.
Was it everything you hoped it would be? CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism! CSM 6 Activities Summary | My CSM blog |
Hard1234
Dodging Bullets Tritech Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:49:00 -
[776] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. Regards Omen
Then you must make high sec planets more like low sec planets in terms of amount of resources they have. If this is implemented, you would effectivly make me leave WH I live in. I dont have money to make 5 CO. 1 for each planet, because I use 5 planets setup. And that could mean I leave the game too.
If you make CO cheap, it would be easy to replace them. Not too cheap of course. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:49:00 -
[777] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Great, so now someone who runs PI in a quiet low sec system on a small scale basis is screwed. Now they have to put up PI structures within said quiet low sec system, with a "blow me up" sign on them.
Small scale low end PI in low sec is now dead for small corps. Once again, CCP has developed something for the huge alliances, and screwed the little guy.
It is one thing to dodge the gankers in low sec to do PI, it quite another to fight alliances.
All hail the megacorps and mega alliances.
A small corp living in a low sec system should be able to control some of the customs offices and reinforce any enemy customs offices in that system.
What gives "the little guy" the right to fly his warp core stab fit hauler into a low sec system and milk the planets when he doesn't even live in that system, without paying for the privilege?
If people are serious about continuing their PI business, they should be considering setting up in WH space or joining a corp that has the power to control a system. If you're not willing to do this then high sec PI is meant for you. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:52:00 -
[778] - Quote
Lolmer wrote:Will editing reinforce timer/standings/tax of a Customs Office have to be done while right next to the customs office, so we have to fly to each CO the corp owns to update it if we change policies, or is there a central point where the corporation may manage all (or subsets of all) customs offices?
Confirming you can change reinforcement exit time, standings and tax rates remotely by viewing your customs offices in the corp assets screen. |
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Celgar Thurn
Department 10
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:55:00 -
[779] - Quote
Hmmm. MASSIVE ISK SINK
Interesting. I think a lot more people will be launching cans rather than using Customs in nul & low sec. I would expect most player owned customs will have standings set so only alliance members can use their Customs offices as well.
Prices for PI materials and therefore everything else up the chain are going to rise a lot if this goes ahead. If the idea to remove ice belts from high sec goes ahead as well then research POS owners and manufacturers are not going to be happy.
You could see something along these lines happening with DUST 514 arriving in 2012. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 09:59:00 -
[780] - Quote
People are worried about the cost of these compared to their profitability.
How about you make them capturable? Either fully, or once captured they become an empty Gantry structure the attacker can re-fill to make operational again. This way even if you lose the POCO, you know you can recapture it and rescue your investment. |
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Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:13:00 -
[781] - Quote
@ CCP devs, can you confirm if we will be able to set different access rights and tax rates for each level of standing? (i.e. terrible, bad, neutral, good, excellent) |
Tas Nok
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:18:00 -
[782] - Quote
TL:DR I'm out 114.3 mil on PI 1.0 64.8mil on PI 2.0 and now PI 3.0 will cost me 558mil, apparently PI needs to be nerfed repeatedly?
so here's how I'm getting screwed...
PI 1.0 I tested it on sisi liked what I saw and sought out a place to make it work so I could produce POS'es and stuff for fun and profit
Train up alts to use PI to maximize planet use across 20 planets in 0.0 and HS (at my HQ) and produce all items from p0 to P4. (bandwidth is good enough so I could just barely get from p0 -> p2 on each planet) then go from p2 -> p4 on a dedicated assembly planet)
Pay out the start up costs: launch pad each planet with each toon = 900,000 x20 command center each planet(old system cost more for the bigger ones) advanced command center 20 x 3,700,000 basic facility x 80 (4 on each planet) x 75,000 advanced facility x 40 (2 on each planet) x 250,000 then all the various extractors which was usually 6-9 per planet based on distance and size 45,000 isk x 140 (pretty sure I had almost 200 clicks to re-set my PI each time I did it) forgetting Taxes and moving things... this was my start up cost:
900,000 x20 = 18mil launch pads 3,700,000 x20 = 74mil advanced command centers 75,000 x 80 = 6mil basic facility 250,000 x 40 = 10mil advanced facility 45,000 x 140 = 6.3mil extractors
114.3mil
THEN... PI 2.0 with the new extractor heads, cpu gets a huge nerf... doing PI the same way with low volume links across the planet is no longer viable... I quit PI for 6 months
CEO and friends encourage me to restart and I start focusing on how to revamp my set-up to just do POS fuels
set-up 2.0 remove all HS installations (not profitable) relocate on 9 planets because Temperate, Gas and Ice are no longer needed (I get O2 from corp noobs who are learning PI) (get a refund on all the extractor heads...) +6.3mil need to pay for the 9 planets from scratch: re-locate facilities to optimize no more than (2) two resources per planet current command centers paid for 9 new command centers at lvl 5 = 9x 4,300,000 because bulk of P0 material is so high I invest in a second launch pad as storage 20x900,000 34 extra basic facilities x 75,000 15 extra advanced facilities x 250,000 40 new and revised extractors x 45,000
9x4,300,000 = 38.7milcommand centers 20x900,000 = 18mil launch pads 34x75,000 = 2.55milbasic facility 15x250,000 = 3.75mil advanced facility 40x45,000 = 1.8mil extractors
64.8mil to become productive again, on top of my original 114.3mil *** so far none of this includes any of the taxes or costs associated with re-aligning when hotspots go cold***
NOW PI 3.0 I suspect I will need to re-locate again, and concentrate on a bare minimum of 5-6 planets this means my toons will all be sucking from the same resources making them less productive Rebuild 11 planet networks so POCO (sucky name BTW) can be maximized buy and build 6 POCO's 80mil x 6 (if I'm lucky)
11 command centers x 4,300,000 = 47.3mil 44 basic facilities x 75,000 = 3.3mil 22 advanced facilities x 250,000 = 5.5mil 22 launch pads x 900,000 = 19.8mil 44 extractors x 45,000 = 1.98mil 6 Player owned Customs Office 80mil = 480mil
557.88mil
added to the start up of 114.3 mil and the revised startup of 64.8mil and I will have sunk 736.98mil into PI... thus making my profit on the whole venture shrink to near zero
CCP IT REALLY SEEMS AS IF YOU WANT EVERYONE TO STOP PI AND GO DO SOMETHING ELSE, Why else would you force players to re-finance their operations repeatedly??
PI produces items that are needed in the game, but with all these changes, you are seriously screwing with us, now that my 480mil investment has to just sit in space defenseless... It will be a recurring cost that will cause me to quit PI again after I lose one. if POS fuels spike (they will) and I lose my investment to the 1st bored super-carrier in system (likely) the POS will come down and into storage until this is fixed.
PI isn't Broke (needs some fixing, but it does work) I suggest you fix other things first: * 1 capital ship array per region (will belong to the dominant power) * 1 moon goo array per pos and double the goo, but quadruple the power/cpu so basically itGÇÖs nearly a undefended POS * triple the rate of invention success with all lvl 5 skills and finally nerf T2 BPO's * limit the total number of manufacturing jobs a corp can have active based on membership 100 members = 10 jobs * make GCC timers re-activate if the player docked, jumped or logged at a pos, they need to survive that countdown out in the open where they can get shot at * if an alliance owns a station, every 7 days there should be a random malfunction like repair services going out for 48 hours unless the system is FULLY upgraded * make it so bounties from all missions must be collected in Yuali * make it so bounties placed on players must be placed in that players HQ system * randomize missions so that players aren't always prepared * randomize complexes more so that sometimes they end up 20 jumps from the last one * once 10 rats in the same belt have died, that's it for 12 hours
go ahead and iterate something else.... you've "fixed" PI enough
I suspect at the rate of things PI 4.0 will roll out in 2014-15
GL with that.
PS. I actually LIKE that you tried to make this MORE player powered and driven, but I really think you haven't thought this through, ALL the small corps and small operations are just going to stop
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Trader Hansen
Failure Assured
0
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Posted - 2011.10.19 10:21:00 -
[783] - Quote
Sounded like a decent idea until I got to the part that there won't be any BPO's and the only source of BPC's will be Concord or Militias.
"Here at CCP we believe in EVE being a sandbox game. NOW RUN OUR DAMN FACTION WARFARE AND INCURSIONS!".
Also... Costs associated with this don't really match up with the reality of what PI colonies are worth given current market prices. |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:22:00 -
[784] - Quote
Will corporate wallet tax payment entries show which planets customs office they are for?
Will there be any controls provided for which corporate wallet division the tax payments go into?
Make it so that you canGÇÖt stop anyone using a CO but the tax rate scales with standings i.e. (simplified) blue = tax rate, neutral = 1.5 x tax rate, red = 2 x tax rate.
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:29:00 -
[785] - Quote
Tas Nok wrote:TL:DR I'm out 114.3 mil on PI 1.0 64.8mil on PI 2.0 and now PI 3.0 will cost me 558mil, apparently PI needs to be nerfed repeatedly?
So... You've not made any money at all from PI? Odd, as I'm pulling, with minimal effort, around 10 mil a week, per planet. And that's far from optimal. Risk free isk isn't the way of Eve. |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:35:00 -
[786] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Aynen wrote:Well, there goes my wormhole space Ninja-PI operation. I had all my alts set up in one wh system where they do PI even though the system is occupied by another corp with far superior numbers and capabilities. With these changes, my main source of income will be gone, which was substantial when all planets are running at capacity.
When these changes get onto TQ, the occupying corp will make the costums offices, and I won't have access anymore exept for the small canisters I can shoot into orbit. Personally I'd have created a system where the ninja wh PI player can have his place, like having to bribe the costums officers or something. Or, in favor of more interaction, building a temporary pirate station that will appear on overview in the system and takes 15 minutes to make ready for use, then, after a certain amount has been transfered through it, it blows up. This way there's a bit more danger to Ninja-wh-PI and it creates an environment that stimulates pvp. You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
I think your working under a false assumption. Currently alliances/corporations try to limit who can/can't use their planets, this will give them more tools to control that. However I do like the idea overall just worried about the transition period. In may open up a small market where some pay rental fees to run offices in certain areas, but we'll see how it works out.
I'd leave the NPC custom offices up until someone places a PCO around the planet. To give you an example Intrepid Crossing in just its Cobalt Edge holdings controls 332 planets. I'd say at least half of those have active colonies probably more. It will take time to replace all those NPC custom stations, thus allowing them to remain until a PCO can be put down makes sense to keep from causing market shortages. Once a PCO is anchored the NPC one should disappear, never to return even if the PCO is later destroyed. |
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Industries
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:44:00 -
[787] - Quote
i cant belive this is something you have worked on for a while CCP owen. this is a badly thought out structure driven boring activity, rather than just a boring activity. started offlining pos's already cos theres no way currently to absorb the extra costs involved. glad i have 3 months worth of fuel stored for 6 towers. i now have 18months for the 1 that will stay.
i just dont see why you at ccp are always trying to **** over the smaller guys/corps/alliances. this is directly what your doing here, have no doubt about it.
|
Andre Jean Sarpantis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:46:00 -
[788] - Quote
TBH. implementing this change technically will have a huge impact on current market and Eve economy as it is rigth now, the final result will be an enormous skyrocketing from all prices for PI products and POS fuels to a point small Corps and such wont be able anylonger to uphold their jobs or anything else, and most of them aren't willing to go to lowsec or null at all so CCP say goodbye to another bulkload of Subscriptions getting chanceld soon as this crap hits TQ.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:49:00 -
[789] - Quote
how about allowing the PCO blueprint copy to be invented instead of seeding it in highsec/faction stations?
Then seed the gantry BPO in hisec/faction stations as per usual.
so turn the PCO bpc into a t2 styled blueprint of the gantry, without the t2 resource requirement. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:52:00 -
[790] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:Will corporate wallet tax payment entries show which planets customs office they are for?
Yes.
Jackie Fisher wrote:Will there be any controls provided for which corporate wallet division the tax payments go into?
At the moment no, they go into the Master Wallet.
|
|
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:52:00 -
[791] - Quote
i also dont understand the massive amount of emo-rage on here... u can still launch stuff into space without going through the PCO, and it wont be taxed. plus if you're in someone elses space as a neut or worse... thats how u should be doing it anyway!
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Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 10:55:00 -
[792] - Quote
Great addition to the game....it is good with some additional isksinks This will finally make big 00 alliances PI structure vulnable to small and medium size raids...
Will the structure drop what ever is in the member hangers if it is destoryed ? How much hitpoints will it have ? please dont tell me that it will be like a POS that will prevent the small raids. Remember that the usual way to handle attacks at the moment is to let them happen and clean up when the reinforcment timer is up. If the structures have a limited amount of hitpoints it will be easier to force alliaces to come out and fight you rather then hide in there space...
While you are at it you should change datacores in such a way that they need to be manufactured threw PI and drop the passive datacore income that is widely used today. That will also give 00 enteties access to everything they need for invention in 00 so they dont have to go to empire...
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Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:01:00 -
[793] - Quote
@ CCP Nullarbor, can you confirm if we will be able to set different access rights and tax rates for each level of standing? (i.e. terrible, bad, neutral, good, excellent)
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Mike Whiite
Progressive State
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:08:00 -
[794] - Quote
I like the general idea I also share the fear of small operations being terminated and low sec knows many small corps.
Though while thinking on it for a while I like to give some options that would make it more intresting for people to allow other people on their turf for low sec anyway.
1) Make the POCO's taxble by owner and Militia occupying the system, which give the PACO's protection from the entire militia, who on their turn gain from allowing more poeple to use it, by getting more tax refenue (which might be devided among the corpses that are part of the milita)
2) And make them Capturable
This make's it a option for a small time operator to start his PACO without being blown out of the skies in a day. Gives FW an extra demention And even if one Militia takes over from the other they have no reason to remove the PACO owner since they could as easly split the tax refenue with the new militia. I't might even be preferable for militia's to let the PACO's be runned by "Specialised PI corps"
It also makes it more likely more planets will get a CO.
|
Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:09:00 -
[795] - Quote
Not sure if already suggested but couldn't you let the current custom offices stay where they are but make them destructible and give them less HP than the POCOs and no RF timer, so that people wont be forced to get a POCO for every planet but at the same time, some enemies could show up and easily destroy the old custom offices to mess with the locals. Give them low enough HP so that a small fleet of SBs can destroy one in a few minutes making it fairly easy to get rid of them. |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies The 20 Minuters
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:10:00 -
[796] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Great, so now someone who runs PI in a quiet low sec system on a small scale basis is screwed. Now they have to put up PI structures within said quiet low sec system, with a "blow me up" sign on them.
Small scale low end PI in low sec is now dead for small corps. Once again, CCP has developed something for the huge alliances, and screwed the little guy.
It is one thing to dodge the gankers in low sec to do PI, it quite another to fight alliances.
All hail the megacorps and mega alliances. A small corp living in a low sec system should be able to control some of the customs offices and reinforce any enemy customs offices in that system. What gives "the little guy" the right to fly his warp core stab fit hauler into a low sec system and milk the planets when he doesn't even live in that system, without paying for the privilege? If people are serious about continuing their PI business, they should be considering setting up in WH space or joining a corp that has the power to control a system. If you're not willing to do this then high sec PI is meant for you.
How about if the "little guy" lives in said (heavily pirated) lowsec system and has always managed to avoid said pirates by being clever (bookmarks of customs offices, cloaky/mwd occators etc)?
And I think you are missing a rather important point for most industrialists I NEED access to the plethora of corporate wallets otherwise administration, tracking cost/expense flow and auditing becomes a total nightmare so joining another corp isn't really an option.
Sure I could join an alliance but why exactly would a PvP alliance want me? And don't say; "So you can sell them those robotics for their POS at a discount!" Because you know what? If I start eating into my margins on that scale I can make as much in hisec without giving up any of my independence. Besides I can do without the drama that large PvP alliances seem to be riddled with.
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
p.s. if stabbed haulers bother you try a HIC.
|
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:11:00 -
[797] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:@ CCP Nullarbor, can you confirm if we will be able to set different access rights and tax rates for each level of standing? (i.e. terrible, bad, neutral, good, excellent)
Access rights are based on setting a minimum standing but currently the tax rate is the same for everyone who has access. |
|
Lady Vici
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:13:00 -
[798] - Quote
Overall the idea is not bad, but just to clarify:
if you are funny with your corp you spam those custom offices all over because there can only be ONE per planet in total and not per corp?
This also means if someone was faster you have to grind the structure... well at least this could generate some fights but overall it will force a lot of people to use the "jet can" for the ressources and assemble on empire planets to avoid getting access removed. Than you are still independent from all those offices.
Also a lot of people still have to recalculate if its still really usefull to produce anything else than POS Fuel. It really reduces the attractivity for the rest - especially for all those producers not part of a powerful 0.0 alliance. |
Lorna Sicling
Helix Pulse
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:16:00 -
[799] - Quote
No doubt I'll be trolled for this, but what I see is:
1. BPC only for gantry - nice ISK sink CCP 2. Griefer Corps controlling low sec systems that border hi-sec - set tax rate to 0% and blue only access 3. New fun targets for super-caps to grief people 4. POS fuel prices about to climb significantly
I do like the RF timer thing - that's a good change that could be rolled out to other things.
They've completely missed the opportunity to have shared Corp hangers - if we the Corp own the Customs Office, why shouldn't we have a Corp hanger there?
I think the idea was good, but the implementation is not good and about to make running a POS and undertaking T2 and POS / Sovereignty manufacturing very expensive indeed.
It was always bizzare that Customs Offices appeared in WH space - how did they get there? I can also see an argument for Customs Offices needing to be built in null sec Sov claimable known space, but systems where you can't claim Sov, particularly low sec?
I wonder how many weeks / months after this change there will be a "patch".
No tears here - just opinion. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:17:00 -
[800] - Quote
Awesome new change to PI - and I like how you tied it in to other game mechanics, even if it is a bit contrived. (FW LP store buff).
I especially like that it's a boost to lowsec industry / activity and becomes a player-run structure that *can* be opened to the public (unlike POS refineries).
I look forward to the struggles to control the taxes on PI exports, and the increase in POS fuel prices :)
For implementation, I'd suggest a week or two grace period where a new POCO can be errected to replace the existing NPC one, and after that period, then you can yank all the remaining ones out of the universe. Otherwise the sudden hiccup of stalled PI production and spike in materials for constructing POCOs will just disrupt markets more than necessary. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
|
Suki Okiwana
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:18:00 -
[801] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote: So... You've not made any money at all from PI? Odd, as I'm pulling, with minimal effort, around 10 mil a week, per planet. And that's far from optimal. Risk free isk isn't the way of Eve.
What game are you playing? |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:19:00 -
[802] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Rek Seven wrote:@ CCP Nullarbor, can you confirm if we will be able to set different access rights and tax rates for each level of standing? (i.e. terrible, bad, neutral, good, excellent) Access rights are based on setting a minimum standing but currently the tax rate is the same for everyone who has access.
Ah thanks for answering my question.
I'm sure you see the flaw in this feature now and I hope that this will be "fixed" upon release... If a customs office owner wishes to charge negative standing players a high tax, i don't think they will be happy if this adversely affects their relationship with friendly corps. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
105
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:23:00 -
[803] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Rek Seven wrote:@ CCP Nullarbor, can you confirm if we will be able to set different access rights and tax rates for each level of standing? (i.e. terrible, bad, neutral, good, excellent) Access rights are based on setting a minimum standing but currently the tax rate is the same for everyone who has access. Ah thanks for answering my question. I'm sure you see the flaw in this feature now and I hope that this will be "fixed" upon release... If a customs office owner wishes to charge negative standing players a high tax, i don't think they will be happy if this adversely affects their relationship with friendly corps.
I wouldn't call it a flaw as it stands, but being able to set a different tax rate for each standings level would be a great feature. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:27:00 -
[804] - Quote
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
How about if the "little guy" lives in said (heavily pirated) lowsec system and has always managed to avoid said pirates by being clever (bookmarks of customs offices, cloaky/mwd occators etc)?
And I think you are missing a rather important point for most industrialists I NEED access to the plethora of corporate wallets otherwise administration, tracking cost/expense flow and auditing becomes a total nightmare so joining another corp isn't really an option.
Sure I could join an alliance but why exactly would a PvP alliance want me? And don't say; "So you can sell them those robotics for their POS at a discount!" Because you know what? If I start eating into my margins on that scale I can make as much in hisec without giving up any of my independence. Besides I can do without the drama that large PvP alliances seem to be riddled with.
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
p.s. if stabbed haulers bother you try a HIC.
I suppose you would like the government to let you pump oil directly from their land so that you can make cheap fuel for your car too?!
Seriously tho, i understand where you are coming from but i think it will be healthy for the eve economy. Like others have said, eve isn't about earning isk risk free, but the people willing to take a risk should be rewarded.
Ps. And if you are a i PI guy living in low sec, i think you overestimate how badly these pirates want to catch you. If they really wanted you dead, they would find your planets and wait buy the customs office when the see you log. it's that simple. |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:31:00 -
[805] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. Regards Omen
OMGWTF..........did you REALLY say that Omen......are you on drugs, pissed up or what?
I am the "little" guy you so insultingly disregard in your response to this question, i started in hi sec, then gathered my resorces and moved to NPC 0.0..........I obviously missed the sign saying " RESERVED SPACE, MEGA CORPS ONLY!!"
Because you make it very plain that you can't be bothered with us "little" guys, should i take my 3 "little" accounts and close them down i wonder?
When i first read your blog i was not happy, now you've added insult to injury......go f**k your self! |
Echo Mande
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:38:00 -
[806] - Quote
Reading the original devblog, some of the dev responses and part of the thread I've got the following notes, suggestions and comments. I do lowsec PI with blockade runners, allowing me to get materials for my POS in quiet systems.
1) Locking people out of the COPO is in my opinion a bad idea outside of sovereign 0.0 space. In your space you can make (some of) the rules but in lowsec or even NPC 0.0 the sovholder should make the 'rules' on this, IMO to favor trade (and take their cut).
If a lockout is added in sov and WH 0.0 some general changes should be made to both encourage ninja-PI and allow a sovereign COPO owner to profit from his COPO. Those changes are to allow non-sovholders to plant command centers (I'm thinking of Providence and non-sov renters here) and adding larger capacity cans launchable from the launch pad (where else?) with less cooldown. If CCP feels the need, let those larger launched cans become probeable (with difficulty) a certain time after launch.
Adding a lockout in lowsec would IMO be a particularly bad idea because what will almost certainly happen is that lowsec 'leet PVP' alliances (read: sadistic sociopaths) will plant COPOs for the express purpose of locking them and the planet to others (particularly plasmas or lavas), griefing anyone interested in lowsec PI and padding their killboard. Their reasons for this and for their shooting any other COPO will almost certainly boil down to 'NBSI', 'lulz' and 'tears'. They'll feel secure in this due to most indy players not having capital fleets on call. If the griefers want to grief PI toons let them (try to) catch the haulers.
2) It hasn't been stated yet how many runs will be on the BPCs. Personally I hope they are not one-runs due to the large number of COPOs that will be needed. This might also be a good time to make POS, sovereignty and COPO structures buildable in a POS structure. Not allowing this will severely penalize the WH crowd due to their having to haul gantries into their WH for anchoring instead of building the gantries in local stations like the low-/null-sec crowd can. Having these structures buildable at POSses will also help make deep nullsec and WH systems less dependant on stations/highsec/Jita.
3) The changes proposed to the PI infrastructure are welcome but aren't the once that are IMO really needed. The road changes, for instance, would be a lot better if they were inversed (current load at 20% grid and CPU). To IMO really improve PI and PI production capability, the following changes ought to be made. First, allow warehouse and launchpad capacity to be expanded to at least triple base capacity (preferably more). Second chop ECUs in half, for half current base cost, grid and CPU for half the number of heads. Third, allow warehouses and launchpads to distribute materials automatically on an hourly basis. Optionally reduce warehouse grid and CPU use (half them and half base capacity?) to make them popular.
4) the current hit points seem to make POCOs targets for dreads, bored gangs and supers. The rep requirements should also draw people to logistics (bring Basilisks) or triage. I assume this is part of a 'make ordinary capitals popular' campaign. Do the posted HP values include or exclude resists?
5) While I am opposed to taxes in principle, CCP needs its ISK sinks. Is setting standings-dependant taxes being considered? Is the taxing of non-sov PI taxes (call it 20%-40% of gross PI taxes) being considered? Will the base tax levels CCP is thinking of be published somewhere?
6) Will extra roles be created to anchor and administrate COPOs? Larger corps are notoriously stingy with equipment and starbase config roles. Will COPO administration otherwise be protected (passwords)?
7) A transition period ought to be considered.
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Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:42:00 -
[807] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. Regards Omen OMGWTF..........did you REALLY say that Omen......are you on drugs, pissed up or what? I am the "little" guy you so insultingly disregard in your response to this question, i started in hi sec, then gathered my resorces and moved to NPC 0.0..........I obviously missed the sign saying " RESERVED SPACE, MEGA CORPS ONLY!!" Because you make it very plain that you can't be bothered with us "little" guys, should i take my 3 "little" accounts and close them down i wonder? When i first read your blog i was not happy, now you've added insult to injury......go f**k your self!
That was uncalled for.
I think what the dev was trying to say was that high sec will still have customs offices to enable you to do PI without interacting with other players. If you want to do PI in null sec (potentially player owned space) where you can earn significantly more than people in high sec, then be prepared to have to interact with other players... you did know this is an MMO right?! |
Aenrea
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:43:00 -
[808] - Quote
I like the idea of building my own CO, seems logical in wormhole spaces mainly (there shouldn't be any), building in null sec, oook, well low sec, okay, maybe it could create some new gameplay, but WHY must be current COs decommissioned and removed? -- I will talk mainly about low sec situation -- Why you want to ruin my weeks of training and mils of ISK? In the systems, where I barely see other pilots, do you have any idea how long I will wait until someone will buy (since I definitely won't be able to buy few COs with this price) an overpriced CO base structure and build CO above all my planets? I've invested into this a lot of time, lot of money, and PI became almost my main job in EVE.. Please try to think about some continual change in CO system, like at the release time, let the old COs there and remove them automatically when some corporation will decide to start earning money from own COs (question is if it would be same also in w-space) . And I dont know, maybe after 1/2 year, wipe the rest of the npc COs (which were not replaced by anyone) - price for the CO base structure could be in that time more affordable anyway.
ps: I'have already tried to suggest some changes when CO is selected in the selected target window, it is possible to have there a button called 'Access Custom Office' (now you have to right click and access custom office)? Is this changed with this? if not, please consider it |
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:48:00 -
[809] - Quote
Question: Since the best place to get the BPC's will be from the militia LP stores, are the devs considering limiting the anchoring of custom offices to occupancy for militia corps? Or maybe a +/- commission based on occupancy?
This may be a golden opportunity to put some functional benefits behind occupancy and push some of the stronger militia corps to take ownership over the whole FW mechanic thing. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:51:00 -
[810] - Quote
To bad we cant get our PI skill points back... and to bad CCP workers are getting BJS from RMT allainces and corps... because this is what this is designed for, |
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Daemien Murdoc
Capital Systems INC Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:53:00 -
[811] - Quote
Just please increase the can size from 500M3 to help smaller 1 man bands not to kill em off playing right into the hands of the larger corps |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:54:00 -
[812] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?
Cause here's the scenario:
- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue - Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got) - Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail - Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue - Corp waits for next sucker
Hence a searchability function is essential! THIS OMG THIS!!! count me in btw....in a bomber, not a transport. LOL EDIT: Also, the wallet blink from the tax revenue is a dead give away that someone is using your POCO, essentially alerting people to neutral activity, creating impromptu gate camps. Pirates won't need to camp a POCO, just be in station or a safe waiting for the flashy flashy: Step 1.) pirate sees wallet flash from PI taxes. Step 2.) pirate undocks and warps to the out gate Step 3.)....
Step 3.) Another corp jumps in with a bait hauler. Step 4.) Pirate corp engages Step 5.) Second corp jumps in the rest of their fleet and beats the **** out of the pirates
Dominus Alterai wrote:Step 4.) PROFIT!!!
Indeed. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:57:00 -
[813] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Rek Seven wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Rek Seven wrote:@ CCP Nullarbor, can you confirm if we will be able to set different access rights and tax rates for each level of standing? (i.e. terrible, bad, neutral, good, excellent) Access rights are based on setting a minimum standing but currently the tax rate is the same for everyone who has access. Ah thanks for answering my question. I'm sure you see the flaw in this feature now and I hope that this will be "fixed" upon release... If a customs office owner wishes to charge negative standing players a high tax, i don't think they will be happy if this adversely affects their relationship with friendly corps. I wouldn't call it a flaw as it stands, but being able to set a different tax rate for each standings level would be a great feature.
Tax by standings level would indeed be a seriously good move. I'm not sure if it has been answered elsewhere but will there be a 'show info' for the customs office? For example if I tootle up to a planet and find an established CO can I check its details (owning corp, relative standings, tax rates etc)?
C.
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
107
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 11:59:00 -
[814] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. Regards Omen OMGWTF..........did you REALLY say that Omen......are you on drugs, pissed up or what? I am the "little" guy you so insultingly disregard in your response to this question, i started in hi sec, then gathered my resorces and moved to NPC 0.0..........I obviously missed the sign saying " RESERVED SPACE, MEGA CORPS ONLY!!" Because you make it very plain that you can't be bothered with us "little" guys, should i take my 3 "little" accounts and close them down i wonder? When i first read your blog i was not happy, now you've added insult to injury......go f**k your self!
Yes, I'm sure Omen was talking directly to you when he put air quotes around "little" guy.
You're trying way too hard to be a victim here.
If you can manage 3 accounts, I'm sure you can handle creating your own corp too, which is what he was referring to. If you're too "little" to form your own simple corporation to run the office, then his advice was use the high sec offices.
If you just want to paint a target on yourself and jump in front of the bullet, go right ahead. The world needs another misguided martyr. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies The 20 Minuters
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:05:00 -
[815] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
How about if the "little guy" lives in said (heavily pirated) lowsec system and has always managed to avoid said pirates by being clever (bookmarks of customs offices, cloaky/mwd occators etc)?
And I think you are missing a rather important point for most industrialists I NEED access to the plethora of corporate wallets otherwise administration, tracking cost/expense flow and auditing becomes a total nightmare so joining another corp isn't really an option.
Sure I could join an alliance but why exactly would a PvP alliance want me? And don't say; "So you can sell them those robotics for their POS at a discount!" Because you know what? If I start eating into my margins on that scale I can make as much in hisec without giving up any of my independence. Besides I can do without the drama that large PvP alliances seem to be riddled with.
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
p.s. if stabbed haulers bother you try a HIC.
Ps. And if you are a i PI guy living in low sec, i think you overestimate how badly these pirates want to catch you. If they really wanted you dead, they would find your planets and wait buy the customs office when the see you log. it's that simple.
You make a couple tacs of the customs offices and warp to those first hit dscan warp down if clear I only need to be there for around 5-10 seconds dependant on how much agility I fitted. Not many pirates wanna sit at a customs office 23,5/7. You ninja the PI when the pirates head out on ops which happily for me they do on the same days around the same times (yes indy's can gather intel too), guess when I collect my goo ^_^ |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:14:00 -
[816] - Quote
Any one else think this is a push, by CCP, to induce more use of alts? Get more people sucked into the trap of security status losses?
/Cynic |
none nalim
Lamb Federation Navy Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:15:00 -
[817] - Quote
So when owner of sov changes I will have to:
1. Gather fleet to reinforce (I see those happy faces when they hear word 'reinforce') 5x POC thats is 50mln ehp. 2. Ask my corp to give me rights to anchor POC or find someone that will do it. 3. Buy 5x POC (yes, buy, no corp will be interested in investing 375-500kk isks when they calculate profit/risk).
Hell no, won't do it.
Why not to: 1. Make tax not in isks but percentage from good people produce. example: 5% tax for tier 1 products. 5% of coolant produced goes to "corp storage" in POC? Yeah that will be interesting in 0.0. Allow different taxes for different tiers. 2. Make bigger silos to allow to setup production for 1 week. Good passive income every week? Thats the thing worth fighting for. Doing PI every day isn't fun. 5,10.15 planets every day or two? no thank you.
This way corp gets good that are needed in 0.0 or can sell them, people have good income without hours of clicking mouse. Worth defending and worth attacking if only corp storage is big enough to gather 1 month tax. (attacker should see how many goods are in POC and if defender can't take them out while in reinforce)
Sorry for my English. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:18:00 -
[818] - Quote
my questions got lost in the middle of this thread re posting them again in the hopes CCP responds:
Questions to CCP:
- what was the motivation for the upgrade step, why not include the materials of the upgrade in the construction step, and then is a just a simple anchor and online? Is that a way to avoid online ninja tactics?
- Will you provide 5 runs BPCs in concord store for a discount like the capital modules?
- This customs offices shields regenerate?
- Its possible to have a second and third version of this structure with more and less raw HP (for more / less money and materials of course) so people can have a choice to choose having in account their corp wallets size vs risk / defense capabilities -> (small, medium, large)
- Why not allow, In low sec, multiple customs offices (max 3 for planet) and let the market / concurrency / prices decide how this possibility plays out?
- Will people attacking the costumer office in low sec gain aggression and drop in standings?
- If the custom office is only anchor, not upgraded, can I still shoot it and reinforce it?
- Can downgrade the customs offices and un-anchor it?
- The customs offices will need stront? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:21:00 -
[819] - Quote
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:You make a couple tacs of the customs offices and warp to those first hit dscan warp down if clear I only need to be there for around 5-10 seconds dependant on how much agility I fitted. Not many pirates wanna sit at a customs office 23,5/7. You ninja the PI when the pirates head out on ops which happily for me they do on the same days around the same times (yes indy's can gather intel too), guess when I collect my goo ^_^
This method will still work with POCOs.
Frankly, you are underestimating the laziness of most pirate entities (and I was CEO of such a corp for a long time). They'd be happy to get PI tax from neutrals (zero admin involved), while still trying to kill the same neutrals as usual. Closing the POCO to blues (renters) means less targets, and more diplo/admin work to find renters, collect payment and deal with them. |
Dr Mercy
EC Riders Mech Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:24:00 -
[820] - Quote
I'm wondering why we can't have this:
http://i.imgur.com/SBnBA.png
Rather than the current planned:
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/2690/2899/Configure.PNG |
|
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:28:00 -
[821] - Quote
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate:
Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!" Dave "Er..hi." Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!" Dave "Er...well its just me tbh" Dustbunny "..."
Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different.
C.
|
Apodis Blue
Indicium Technologies Hephaestus Forge Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:30:00 -
[822] - Quote
Sorry, this is FAIL ! EPIC FAIL !
Think of the economical impact! Prices of PI stuff aren't high enough already?? And as said in the latest Price Indices report, ice product prices and PI product prices are negatively correlated! In other words, ice products will get cheap, bottom prices, and PI stuff expensive. Btw, PI stuff isn't all for POS fuel, but also for T2 production. I don't wanna think about the price risings there...
The BPO only available through CONCORD LP shops or Faction Warfare... Another FAIL !! Who gets CONCORD LPs? Those who do incursions. PI is for industrials !! They don't run incursions !!! And they don't do faction warfare either !! Industrials don't / can't fly combat ships !! So how do you want us to defend our custom offices ??!!
Oh! And another thing... PI in hisec is already very time consuming, due to low resources on those hisec planets, and now you're going to double import/export taxes ??!!
Thanks alot! But this change will break PI even more, if not completely !!! |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:34:00 -
[823] - Quote
deter the big blob and lure the small gang:
- make the reinforcement timers for low sec and npc null 2-3 times that of sov-null.. minimum 48 hours - people attacking the structure should cost the owner isk/material, but 'payout' should be organised similar to Incursions (an optimal attacking group should be your average local roaming gang) - milking the CO should be more attractive than destroying it and only be lucrative to small gangs
Also, set up a flat tax for joe average in low sec/npc null sec so that he still is able to pi-ninja out there if he feels like it. 200% flat tax, anonymously. Or make it so that only standings from corp to corp or alliance to alliance count for the taxation, and entrepreneurs have a chance..
As for using the corp managment/roles that also relate to pos.. are you out of your freaking mind? I mean really? *facepalm* |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
178
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:37:00 -
[824] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate: Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!" Dave "Er..hi." Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!" Dave "Er...well its just me tbh" Dustbunny "..." Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different. C.
Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Apodis Blue
Indicium Technologies Hephaestus Forge Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:43:00 -
[825] - Quote
Cunane Jeran wrote:Loving the sound of these changes. PI really needed something to kick it up the ass and this is perfect.
... to break it completely... |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:46:00 -
[826] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Scarlett Ninja wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. Regards Omen OMGWTF..........did you REALLY say that Omen......are you on drugs, pissed up or what? I am the "little" guy you so insultingly disregard in your response to this question, i started in hi sec, then gathered my resorces and moved to NPC 0.0..........I obviously missed the sign saying " RESERVED SPACE, MEGA CORPS ONLY!!" Because you make it very plain that you can't be bothered with us "little" guys, should i take my 3 "little" accounts and close them down i wonder? When i first read your blog i was not happy, now you've added insult to injury......go f**k your self! That was uncalled for. I think what the dev was trying to say was that high sec will still have customs offices to enable you to do PI without interacting with other players. If you want to do PI in null sec (potentially player owned space) where you can earn significantly more than people in high sec, then be prepared to have to interact with other players... you did know this is an MMO right?!
My main char is part of a large 0.0 alliance so i know what the game is about smartarse!
Also I do my PI in 0.0 NPC space, so no player holds sov, as i understand it you cannot do PI in someone elses sov space!
As for "interacting", you should try working 18 planets in a hostile system......there is plenty of "interaction"!
Why should I loose out to the Alliance that makes it's home in the same system, they have their chances to kill me, they do not own the system but under the new system as far as PI goes they might as well!
And I think what is uncalled for is to get people to invest heavily, say maybe a Jumpfreighter, then risk your investment to do an activity that CCP said is for everybody, just to have the door slamed in your face in favor of the biggest blob that resides in your area.....thats just bollocks
|
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:46:00 -
[827] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:*snip*
Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there.
Uhm?
Pro: 0% tax from there on increased revenue from PI products
Con: upfront install cost of COs
Again, milking the CO by a small gang must be more attractive than the reinforcement/destruction by the big blob. The other side is, that the milking must be a big enough nuisance for the CO owners/users to 'feel the urge' to do something about it. A big blob, putting the thing into reinforce is not it. |
Jeff Geoff
Reprocity Knights Of The Singularity
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:49:00 -
[828] - Quote
Get ready to defend your wormhole!
PI is important to us as a source of POS fuel and income (excess sold in Empire). The changes give you a temporary degree of ownership of planets in your wh system.
When are changes scheduled to be introduced?
I assume planetary industrial modules will continue to function but not be accessible until Corp owned customs put in place.
Key to successful defence is the timers on access wormholes to our system unless the aggressor logs off in system. It would take a lot of time and effort on behalf of an aggressor to take down all our customs offices.
Small is beautiful. C1 wh would seem to be the most easily defended.
Jeff
|
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:50:00 -
[829] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:[quote=Cailais]
Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there.
Incorrect. Your corp will have the option of getting an additional income from the tax. Don't want to tax your corp? That's up to you. |
Par'Gellen
Neon Cranium
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:51:00 -
[830] - Quote
Here are the four things PI really needs:
- Click-fest has to go. It's really quite simple. GET RID OF MANUAL ROUTING! A simple "up-the-chain" routing system would be fine.
- Plop down extractor and tell it what to do.
- Attach basic factory to it and it should DEFAULT to converting whatever the extractor is pulling.
- Any attached Advanced factories should pull what they need from the Basics AUTOMATICALLY.
- Any attached High-Tech factories should pull what they need from the Advanceds AUTOMATICALLY.
- Any overflow/excess should DEFAULT to AND from any attached storage facility AUTOMATICALLY.
- Storage Facilities (spaceports especially) should be ENORMOUS! They should be capable of storing freighter sized loads.
- Colonies should be creatable as Private (for a single character) or Corporate (for a corporation). Access to corporate customs offices controls and storage should be just like access to corporate hangars (accessible by anyone that has access granted to them by the corp). This is a no-brainer and should already be implemented.
- Link upgrades have to go. They serve no purpose other than to eat power and CPU and add nothing of benefit. This power and CPU drain mechanic could easily be included into the links themselves AUTOMATICALLY depending on their length and load.
These are the things I want to see fixed in PI. Anything else is just a waste of time. |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
178
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:53:00 -
[831] - Quote
Tres Farmer wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:*snip*
Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there. Uhm? Pro: 0% tax from there on increased revenue from PI products Con: upfront install cost of COs Again, milking the CO by a small gang must be more attractive, than the reinforcement/destruction by the big blob. The other side is, that the milking must be a big enough nuisance for the CO owners/users to 'feel the urge' to do something about it. A big blob, putting the thing into reinforce is not it.
Unfurtunately the "CON" of the price for these abominations will eat any profit to be gleamed from PI, including the lower tax rate, for a considerable time, especially when you consider needing ten of these things. So, while trying to get ten, PI will be broken. Generic lauches won't work, unless someone can tell me how to do launches when your command center is no longer connected to the rest of the network because you moved the network following resources, or how to get those P1 materials being made on the gathering planets down to the industrial planet that converts them to P2 on up.
They're really screwing things up, and the fact that CCP won't even address the concerns the players have now indicates that the whole Hilmar apology and promise for better communication was just a lie to coddle the community. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Ahrman Vanaheim
Chimaera Combine Novus Dominatum
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:54:00 -
[832] - Quote
Not at all enthusiastic about this for lowsec.
Given that lowsec is 'still' considered the domain of the empires with gate guns and stations, how do players suddenly have the ability to place customs offices in sovereign territory?
Ok, the big problem from my point is that there is vast numbers of bored low sec inhabitants who have sucessfully killed anyone else in their region. This will give them somthing else to destroy (even if taxes are set to 0 I would imagine) and then wonder why their space is so empty.
It really is a great idea in theory, just not for space that really can't be controlled. Null Sec yes, Low Sec definitely not. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:55:00 -
[833] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote: My main char is part of a large 0.0 alliance so i know what the game is about smartarse!
As for "interacting", you should try working 18 planets in a hostile system......there is plenty of "interaction"!
You are part of a 0.0 alliance and operate on 18 different planets and claim to be "the little guy"... Interesting argument. |
Afandi
Paradise Delivery
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:55:00 -
[834] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Here are the four things PI really needs:
- Click-fest has to go. It's really quite simple. GET RID OF MANUAL ROUTING! A simple "up-the-chain" routing system would be fine.
- Plop down extractor and tell it what to do.
- Attach basic factory to it and it should DEFAULT to converting whatever the extractor is pulling.
- Any attached Advanced factories should pull what they need from the Basics AUTOMATICALLY.
- Any attached High-Tech factories should pull what they need from the Advanceds AUTOMATICALLY.
- Any overflow/excess should DEFAULT to AND from any attached storage facility AUTOMATICALLY.
- Storage Facilities (spaceports especially) should be ENORMOUS! They should be capable of storing freighter sized loads.
- Colonies should be creatable as Private (for a single character) or Corporate (for a corporation). Access to corporate customs offices controls and storage should be just like access to corporate hangars (accessible by anyone that has access granted to them by the corp). This is a no-brainer and should already be implemented.
- Link upgrades have to go. They serve no purpose other than to eat power and CPU and add nothing of benefit. This power and CPU drain mechanic could easily be included into the links themselves AUTOMATICALLY depending on their length and load.
These are the things I want to see fixed in PI. Anything else is just a waste of time.
This.
|
Afandi
Paradise Delivery
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 12:57:00 -
[835] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Scarlett Ninja wrote: My main char is part of a large 0.0 alliance so i know what the game is about smartarse!
As for "interacting", you should try working 18 planets in a hostile system......there is plenty of "interaction"!
You are part of a 0.0 alliance and operate on 18 different planets and claim to be "the little guy"... Interesting argument.
Not sure if dumb or trolling...
Obviously he has an alt to do PI, who is a "little guy".
Troll away.
|
Dierdra Vaal
Veto. Veto Corp
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:00:00 -
[836] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:David Carel wrote:a) Will it be possible to set a tax rate for different standings/groups? Say, Alliance has 0%, +10 has 0% too, +5 has 10%, +0 has 20%, -5 has 50% and -10 has 100%? Wow, that was a good idea but it's not the case. If the time fairy smiles, then maybe...but don't count on it.
I realise you're on a tight budget but I would like to emphasise that allowing different tax rates would make this a much more interesting mechanic. If possible, ask one of your programmers how long it would take to do please :D
CCP Omen wrote:We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.
Regards Omen
and
CCP Omen wrote:Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.
The relative low value of most CO won't matter compared to the relative high value of hilarious carebear tears.
My point is that just because a sandcastle is cheap or unimportant, doesn't mean people won't go disproportionate lengths to kick it over. Especially when everyone and their mother has a supercap, which makes reinforcing them a matter of minutes with only a few supers.
You should consider making the COs immune to doomsdays and fighter bombers. That would at least increase the effort of kicking them over a little.
Veto #205 * * * Director Emeritus at EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:01:00 -
[837] - Quote
Afandi wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Scarlett Ninja wrote: My main char is part of a large 0.0 alliance so i know what the game is about smartarse!
As for "interacting", you should try working 18 planets in a hostile system......there is plenty of "interaction"!
You are part of a 0.0 alliance and operate on 18 different planets and claim to be "the little guy"... Interesting argument. Not sure if dumb or trolling... Obviously he has an alt to do PI, who is a "little guy". Troll away.
neither.
The guy that considers someone with 3 characters to be the little guy is the dummy here.
|
Holy One
SniggWaffe
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:03:00 -
[838] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?
Cause here's the scenario:
- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue - Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got) - Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail - Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue - Corp waits for next sucker
Hence a searchability function is essential! THIS OMG THIS!!! count me in btw....in a bomber, not a transport. LOL EDIT: Also, the wallet blink from the tax revenue is a dead give away that someone is using your POCO, essentially alerting people to neutral activity, creating impromptu gate camps. Pirates won't need to camp a POCO, just be in station or a safe waiting for the flashy flashy: Step 1.) pirate sees wallet flash from PI taxes. Step 2.) pirate undocks and warps to the out gate Step 3.).... Step 4.) PROFIT!!!
All of which is facilitated nicely by the date, time and name of the person paying you tax as recorded in the wallet transaction.
This whole idea is so dumb I'm honestly wondernig if its some kind of joke or something. If my interns came to me with this proposal, that has been comprehensively blown to shreds as illogical, uneccessary and likely to cost ccp money, I'd have fired them.
Re-enforceable CO won't work anywhere in eve. Period. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
178
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:08:00 -
[839] - Quote
What's sad is that in this time of supposed "better communications with the players" CCP Omen and the rest won't address the concerns people are bringing up at all.
This does not bode well. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
eaterofcheese
Solar Deliberative Games of Divinity
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:08:00 -
[840] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:We consider Player Owned Customs Offices in High-Sec a MUCH bigger impact on the game and the economy. It's not part of what we are doing now, but we aren't excluding it if this feature pans out well =)
If you are going to look at that, does this mean there's going to be opportunities for Alliances to 'rent' or otherwise acquire semi-sov of some sort in high-sec?
|
|
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:21:00 -
[841] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?
Cause here's the scenario:
- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue - Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got) - Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail - Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue - Corp waits for next sucker
Hence a searchability function is essential! THIS OMG THIS!!! count me in btw....in a bomber, not a transport. LOL EDIT: Also, the wallet blink from the tax revenue is a dead give away that someone is using your POCO, essentially alerting people to neutral activity, creating impromptu gate camps. Pirates won't need to camp a POCO, just be in station or a safe waiting for the flashy flashy: Step 1.) pirate sees wallet flash from PI taxes. Step 2.) pirate undocks and warps to the out gate Step 3.).... Step 4.) PROFIT!!! All of which is facilitated nicely by the date, time and name of the person paying you tax as recorded in the wallet transaction. This whole idea is so dumb I'm honestly wondernig if its some kind of joke or something. If my interns came to me with this proposal, that has been comprehensively blown to shreds as illogical, uneccessary and likely to cost ccp money, I'd have fired them. Re-enforceable CO won't work anywhere in eve. Period.
> delay of flashy income will screw this > anonymous tax income will screw this
|
Echo Mande
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:24:00 -
[842] - Quote
Tres Farmer wrote: > delay of flashy income will screw this > anonymous tax income will screw this
Yup. For greatest effect the payments should be accumulated and deposited every 20 minutes or so like how rat bounties are handled now. |
Nose ElGrande
Cha Ching LtD Ewoks
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:24:00 -
[843] - Quote
Liquidus Lamnia wrote:The proposed change lacks economic incentive, corporate-level functionality, and managibile defenses --snip-- 2) Enable Corporate Hangers in the PCO, this would allow for the exchange of PI between characters remotely without moving it from the PCO
- This would reduce the number of Planets needing PCOs
- The PCO owning corp would reduce tax to 0% therefore saving 5% over current taxes or more if tax is raised at NPC COs
3) Do not remove the existing NPC COs
- Increase the taxes charged by NPC COs in LS/0.0/w-space to 500% or more
- Allow them to be attacked except in HS, giving them less HP than a CPO
- Increase the capacity of the Command Center planetary ejection system to enable tax evasion.
--snip-- 6) The HP as stated is good, but the ability to mount ECM/Batteries must be included as well. 7) Currently only the following are used in other products: ---snip - list of current PI products--- All the other P2/P3/P4 products need to be used in non-POS recipes to justify/balance PI. This needs to be addressed to increase demand and justify PCO defense risk. --snip-- For PCOs to succeed, DO NOT IMPLEMENT WITHOUT items 2, 3, and 6
This was posted back on page 29 of this thread and I haven't heard a response from CCP Omen since page 24 or so...
Many of these thoughts have been echoed by other posts ... CCP can you please provide a response?
2) I do not understand the logic of converting a single-user interface/structure (NPC CO) into a multi-user/Corporate structure (PCO) without providing the mechanism for the exchange of items between users in the Corporation. As proposed this is like creating a station/POS without permitting the creation of a Corporate Office/Hanger. Please explain why the PI team is unable to provide the Corporate functionality (beyond standings/tax) at this time.
3) Please explain why this poster's suggestion of a gradual, player and economic-driven conversion from NPC-CO to PCO cannot be implemented? If Corporate-centric PI exchange is enabled in the structure, the savings in labor by putting all the P2-P4 assembly work on one planet would justify the purchase and defense of the PCO. Many posters have also reminded you of the CCP stated 'put your Command Center anywhere' design now being critical to non-PCO PI.
6) The Bill of Material for the Gantry/CO reads like a POS, so why not allow it to be defended like a POS? You *could* create PCO-unique defenses (someone had suggested ressurrecting mines about 15 pages back) using some of the P2/P3 PI *not* used for Fuel and T2.
Omen, can you please clarify your response stating that 50% of PI is currently in HS? Can you reveal the split of that statistic by PO/P1 extraction vs P2-P4 assembly? I suspect there is an assumption that most folks haul P1 to HS for final assembly, given the low fertility of the planets themselves. I'm asking because the assumption that small corp/solo players can still do PI in HS makes some assumptions about volume and source for the PO/P1 materials ...
When PI was first introduced there was a concern about ganking at the Custom Office. In my experience, this has only been true in 0.0/w=space about 2% of the time. Most gankers/pirates have better ways of spending their time, and i don't think the PCO conversion with change this. If #3 is implemented as suggested here, there will not be the 'easy' PCO or no PCO indication of where PI is being done. Sure, you can determine which is a NPC-CO and which is a PCO, but users could be using both.
Is the real reason for all this really a DUST514 scaling issue? You can't manage 7500 possible locations/Planets for DUST514 deployment, so you would like the current user base to determine how many planets are *really* of interest? That seems like a weak justification for the high economic impact limiting PI sources will bring.
One last thing. The current design of the CO does a poor job of defining the structure boundries. Industrials are constantly ending warp to the CO inside the structure or on the opposite side from the departure point making return-warp a hidden obstacle circus. Only warping to 10K of the structure resolves this. Please design the PCO with warp-in points far enough out to prevent the inertia of the ship from passing through the structure. |
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:25:00 -
[844] - Quote
Dierdra Vaal wrote: The relative low value of most CO won't matter compared to the relative high value of hilarious carebear tears.
Exactly. I had a (very) low skill alt flying to Jita in a pod to pick up a new ship. One of the local "miner gankers" decided to pop my pod, then convo me about it and try to get a reaction. (Yeah, I probably deserved it in some way, as I was complacent, but it was kinda like "Who the hell would lose a destroyer to shoot a pod." Then came the convo request, the killboard link, and the "your pod looked good on my killboard" kind of comments...)
Not really knowing any of the actual pirates out there, but would it be so fun/desirable if you didn't get a reaction? |
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:32:00 -
[845] - Quote
I admit, I'm not the most experienced when it comes to PI but from a PvP perspective, what you're basically asking us to do is shoot more structures which as most PvPers keep telling you, is just about the single most boring aspect of Eve. There has to be a better way of interdicting player/corp's/alliance's economys other than shooting structures. |
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
52
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:34:00 -
[846] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Cailais wrote:Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate: Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!" Dave "Er..hi." Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!" Dave "Er...well its just me tbh" Dustbunny "..." Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different. C. Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there.
You have to consider the bigger picture: WH PI will be more cost effective than High Sec PI, that's pretty much a given. It will also be significantly less vulnerable to 'outside influence' than say a low sec / null PI set up. Less vulnerable also equals less expensive in the long term.
Accepting that PI materials increase in price (or at least are considerably more unstable) WH PI could prove to be quite lucrative.
C.
|
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:37:00 -
[847] - Quote
Apodis Blue wrote:Sorry, this is FAIL ! EPIC FAIL ! Think of the economical impact! Prices of PI stuff aren't high enough already?? And as said in the latest Price Indices report, ice product prices and PI product prices are negatively correlated! In other words, ice products will get cheap, bottom prices, and PI stuff expensive. Btw, PI stuff isn't all for POS fuel, but also for T2 production. I don't wanna think about the price risings there... The BPO only available through CONCORD LP shops or Faction Warfare... Another FAIL !! Who gets CONCORD LPs? Those who do incursions. PI is for industrials !! They don't run incursions !!! And they don't do faction warfare either !! Industrials don't / can't fly combat ships !! So how do you want us to defend our custom offices ??!! Oh! And another thing... PI in hisec is already very time consuming, due to low resources on those hisec planets, and now you're going to double import/export taxes ??!! Thanks alot! But this change will break PI even more, if not completely !!!
What you mean to say is that someone, somewhere, will make a buck out of the whole process. Incursion players by selling POCO BPCs. PI manufacturers who are successful, POCO owners etc etc etc.
Adapt or die as we used to say around here.
C.
|
Danny Centauri
Baltic Eagle
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:40:00 -
[848] - Quote
Will also make for a much easier to influence market. For example posageddon formed by players to influce fuel prices, much like hulkageddon. Could be awesome fun. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
178
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:40:00 -
[849] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Cailais wrote:Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate: Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!" Dave "Er..hi." Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!" Dave "Er...well its just me tbh" Dustbunny "..." Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different. C. Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there. You have to consider the bigger picture: WH PI will be more cost effective than High Sec PI, that's pretty much a given. It will also be significantly less vulnerable to 'outside influence' than say a low sec / null PI set up. Less vulnerable also equals less expensive in the long term. Accepting that PI materials increase in price (or at least are considerably more unstable) WH PI could prove to be quite lucrative. C.
I need a hug. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
63
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:45:00 -
[850] - Quote
/queue irate FW nerd.
What the hell is wrong with you morons in Iceland?
Why the **** do you introduce MOAR! bloody boring blob inducing EHP grinding mechanics at this stage? Hasn't that piece of **** idea been proven to be broken at its core by the complete collapse of anything non blobby in null?
Why the hell do you add it to the biggest goddamn ISK farm this side of the drone regions? FW does NOT need bloody more incentive for lame ass blob monkey alts to stink up the place.
Did you even consider what will happen by doing this so-stupid-it-hurts thing? The null blobs will add income from ALL worthwhile planets to their already bottomless (from moons) wallets, because being part of a 1000+ man blob is mandatory to have any hope in the EHP grind stupidity.
So **** you CCP. **** you for ******* up low-sec even more than it is ..
/end rant
PS: Yes, that is a lot of harsh words. Normally can't stand even thinking about using them as they are generally massive overkill, but there are as with all things exceptions. |
|
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:53:00 -
[851] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Cailais wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Cailais wrote:Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate: Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!" Dave "Er..hi." Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!" Dave "Er...well its just me tbh" Dustbunny "..." Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different. C. Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there. You have to consider the bigger picture: WH PI will be more cost effective than High Sec PI, that's pretty much a given. It will also be significantly less vulnerable to 'outside influence' than say a low sec / null PI set up. Less vulnerable also equals less expensive in the long term. Accepting that PI materials increase in price (or at least are considerably more unstable) WH PI could prove to be quite lucrative. C. I need a hug.
I've another option for your Dust scenario:
Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!" Dave "Er..hi." Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!" Dave "Sorry you all came so far but a huge blob just blew up my CO so partys over"
|
Bilaz
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 13:53:00 -
[852] - Quote
i've read on eve-ru idea i cant wait to share. simply put its proposed not shoot customs but instead hack them. we have analyzer and decryptor - so one would be temp solution - like force something in/out and second - permanent: first time you get emergency lockdown, second time you get it in your hands. ofc both things should be time-consuming, maybe some system wide alerts may go off and/or some corp level notifications. ultimately that would allow even two pilot have a feud in the middle of nowhere becouse it doesn't involve millions of hp to grind thru plus it would only be interesting to mess with customs if you want it or something from previous owner.
By also making it upgradable with ground lvl one being everywhere and superior versions being superior to it in some ways - you could make players interested in getting into all your gantry anchoring and upgrading mumba-umba instead of forcing them to do it. |
Dragnkat
HAMMER STAR BLADE Universal Paranoia Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:08:00 -
[853] - Quote
Quote: What gives "the little guy" the right to fly his warp core stab fit hauler into a low sec system and milk the planets when he doesn't even live in that system, without paying for the privilege?
Quote: What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
I'll one up that and add the characters who specifically set their entire skill queue up and by a blockade runner SPECIFICALLY to ninja PI fron under the noses of the mega corps and enjoy the risk that such actions entailed. Which for in my low sec PI has included gate camps, people trying to scan me down (good luck), people watching customs offices on focused D-scan (which got another guy hauling PI out who was less on the ball then me) and even one "lazy" pirate using a HIC with a focused warp disruptor over the bubble.
And why we're at it, what right does CCP have to kick me and every person who took the time to train the skills right in the balls and make an ENTIRE playstyle in eve totally invalid by this change?
Quote: Ps. And if you are a i PI guy living in low sec, i think you overestimate how badly these pirates want to catch you. If they really wanted you dead, they would find your planets and wait buy the customs office when the see you log. it's that simple.
Never mind that the whole point of blockade runners was to smuggle, cloak in, zip out, and be undetectable, and PCO's throw that idea right out the window too. As they do put up a giant sign that says "Camp here for hauler tears." and trust me those so called lazy pirates can, will, and do, because haulers on the killboard pad it nicely more then some mythical cap ship coming in. and guess what, you just made their job even easier and more lazy for them, congrats CCP.
Now if rockets held more then 500 i wouldn't be as pissed. And I'd take the risk to stay in low.
If these PCO's were able to actually be obtained at a reasonable cost I'd take the risk putting them up, or ask the alliances where I do PI for permission, or if they were gonna put up their own. 100 million isk is currently my entire wallet.
If my alliance was willing to help fund these it might be doable, but do you really think I have the right to ask them to drop everything and work on my problem should my out of the way PI get attacked? Where's the profit in it for them to risk pvp ships over it?
Quote: Seriously tho, i understand where you are coming from but i think it will be healthy for the eve economy. Like others have said, eve isn't about earning isk risk free, but the people willing to take a risk should be rewarded.
This PCO concept throws every risk reward equation right out the window under the assumptions that we'll all somehow play nice, people will be bothered to put these up, we'll actually see decent tax rates, and they won't be blown apart by bored gangs in week one.
Lot of assuming there, my parents had a saying about that, something it makes you involving those first three letters......
This idea is a totally if it aint broke don't fix it, and the only thing more offensive then it is Omen's let them eat cake attitude towards anyone who isn't part of the blob. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:10:00 -
[854] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:i also dont understand the massive amount of emo-rage on here... u can still launch stuff into space without going through the PCO, and it wont be taxed. plus if you're in someone elses space as a neut or worse... thats how u should be doing it anyway!
This demonstrates a lack of knowledge. Read previous threadnaught before posting. Launches are not a viable option. There are already pages of discussion on that alone. Try again. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
179
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:15:00 -
[855] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:i also dont understand the massive amount of emo-rage on here... u can still launch stuff into space without going through the PCO, and it wont be taxed. plus if you're in someone elses space as a neut or worse... thats how u should be doing it anyway!
This demonstrates a lack of knowledge. Read previous threadnaught before posting. Launches are not a viable option. There are already pages of discussion on that alone. Try again.
There's also the unaddressed problem of launching things TO the planet for further refinement. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:17:00 -
[856] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Scarlett Ninja wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'. It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. Regards Omen OMGWTF..........did you REALLY say that Omen......are you on drugs, pissed up or what? I am the "little" guy you so insultingly disregard in your response to this question, i started in hi sec, then gathered my resorces and moved to NPC 0.0..........I obviously missed the sign saying " RESERVED SPACE, MEGA CORPS ONLY!!" Because you make it very plain that you can't be bothered with us "little" guys, should i take my 3 "little" accounts and close them down i wonder? When i first read your blog i was not happy, now you've added insult to injury......go f**k your self! That was uncalled for. I think what the dev was trying to say was that high sec will still have customs offices to enable you to do PI without interacting with other players. If you want to do PI in null sec (potentially player owned space) where you can earn significantly more than people in high sec, then be prepared to have to interact with other players... you did know this is an MMO right?!
While there are some people upset, many can't say why. There has already been pages of discussion on why this is a bad implementation of this feature. I won't beat the dead horse any further into the ground. Those 'carebear tears' are justified even if they don't know it. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
110
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:24:00 -
[857] - Quote
Dragnkat wrote:This PCO concept throws every risk reward equation right out the window under the assumptions that we'll all somehow play nice, people will be bothered to put these up, we'll actually see decent tax rates, and they won't be blown apart by bored gangs in week one.
Yes, I'm sure the same lowsec blobs that go around blowing up every POS they see in every system will also now spend a few hours reinforcing every customs office they come across as well.
Because shooting structures for hours is fun.
And then coming back 24 hours+ later to even have an appreciable effect on the office is sure to be an exciting fleet goal.
Until you've tried to remove even an undefended small POS with your gang, quit yer whining. People with a will and a purpose will shoot at a customs office just like people with a will and a purpose will remove a POS they want taken down. Bored pilots or fleets will shoot for maybe 15 minutes, get even more bored, and move on.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
109
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:24:00 -
[858] - Quote
so this is the dust eve link. thats pretty much it.
so while with that in mind i put on my tin foil hat and came up with some wild speculation.
you have 5 maybe 6 mega blobs in 0.0 currently. while most of these are not blue with each other they have in place NIP's(none infrastrure pacts) so they wont shoot each others sov structures, there pilots are fair game.
these planet things will allow each of these groups to pick fights with each other with out any sov fights taking place, they can all say were not blue with each other and link many fights over low cost planet thingys, but all without any risk to there sov infrastructure.
it will only cement the mega blob groups into there own space with no risk to there isk incomes as fights shift from pos's, sov and important structures towards planet things. leading to an even more stagnate 0.0.
awesom job ccp. these are the farms and fields **** you lot have been banging on about, how dull that looks now CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Vastek Non
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:28:00 -
[859] - Quote
The idea sounds great but has some fatal flaws.
I would liken it to funding free girls schools in some of the more 'restless' tribal regions of Afghanistan. Free schools? Awesome, who doesn't like education? Free schools for girls? Great idea. Traditionaly undereducated in that area. Only positives can come of it.
What could possibly go wrong?
What 'could' go wrong is your average low sec 'pirate' has the attention span and interest in industry of a gnat. I could count the time it will take until the PCO's are being reinforced in days, on one hand.
Tears > Proft, always. That is all. Assume you are planning for Mogadishu in this game and you won't go wrong. Some members of CCP definitely seem to have a 'peace in our time' and 'wouldn't it be nice if we could all just be logical and get along' attitude.
Disapointing news - we don't. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:36:00 -
[860] - Quote
Vastek Non wrote:The idea sounds great but has some fatal flaws. I would liken it to funding free girls schools in some of the more 'restless' tribal regions of Afghanistan. Free schools? Awesome, who doesn't like education? Free schools for girls? Great idea. Traditionaly undereducated in that area. Only positives can come of it. What could possibly go wrong? What 'could' go wrong is your average low sec 'pirate' has the attention span and interest in industry of a gnat. I could count the time it will take until the PCO's are being reinforced in days, on one hand. Tears > Proft, always. That is all. Assume you are planning for Mogadishu in this game and you won't go wrong. Some members of CCP definitely seem to have a 'peace in our time' and 'wouldn't it be nice if we could all just be logical and get along' attitude. Disapointing news - we don't.
not only that, but peace is not profitable. The eve economy would literally shut down over night if everyone just stopped fighting. |
|
Floydd Heywood
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:40:00 -
[861] - Quote
I'd love if there was a multi-tiered approach to attacking/conquering structures. I was asking myself: How will this change help me to get owners of COs in w-space to come out of their POS and defend their assets? Or give us an incentive to board a ship and attack people who attack our COs.
Right now, the change will do little to generate actual fights, as in ships firing upon other ships. When I attack a CO, the owner, even if online, will probably just ignore me and expect that I will go away after a while. And he'll be right, because shooting that stupid structure isn't worth hours of my time.
It's clear that a structure must be hard to conquer and reinforced mode is necessary because nobody can or should have to be online 24/7. But what if there were multiple escalations while attacking a CO, or any structure?
Ideas:
1. Instead of a "it's either whole or it's destroyed" approach, create several states for COs. A fleet attacking a CO could now put it into a "disrupted mode" quickly and without reinforcing it. The attacker would get some benefit out of this and the owner would suffer a loss. Maybe the CO could have 100% efficiency initially, and when damaged, it would drop valuable parts which can be looted. Its efficiency decreases and the owner has to replace the lost parts later GÇô or come out and defend the CO.
This way a limited disruptive attack would make sense for attackers and be bad for the owners, but they wouldn't lose their CO unless the attacker is willing to go all the way.
Of course the problem remains that owners may simply be asleep at the time of the attack. That's a serious obstacle. So here's another, quite crazy idea:
2. Let corps define an official "prime-time window". This should probably be 8 hours long. During this time of day, the corp is expected to be active and logged-in, and their structures are especially vulnerable. Outside of this time window, they are better protected. The window can be changed, but any change becomes effective only after some days or maybe a week, so it cannot be changed to impede an ongoing or imminent attack.
So for example, when I enter a w-space and the resident corp is active, it will be their prime-time window and I can attack their COs easily, doing a lot of damage in a short time. The owners will have to fight to stop me, or suffer some loss.
If I come into their system when no one is online, it will probably not be their prime-time and I'll have a hard time getting those COs down. This could be implemented by lowering/heightening their resistances.
There still needs to be protection for those days when everybody is just busy with RL. So structures couldn't be lost completely without reinforced mode, only damaged and looted. Incentivize regular, limited attacks without completely screwing over people who just couldn't be there. |
Jada Maroo
Mysterium Astrometrics BRABODEN
280
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 14:56:00 -
[862] - Quote
What I don't get is...
If you want more direct player interaction, why not introduce a mobile launch reception ship (like a mobile customs office) that forces players in low/null/WH space to FLY to the planet in a SHIP that could be the target instead of having a big dumb cargo cannister floating in space? Seriously, it gives us a new ship and allows for ganking. It seems like such an easy solution and doesn't force anyone to anchor / shoot at structures for hours at a time. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:03:00 -
[863] - Quote
Clearly people are divided on this new feature and i think CCP need to put some more thought into it instead of their "release the feature and if it doesn't work, we'll nerf it later" approach.
What i would like to see:
The destruction of the customs office should not net the agressor a killmail - this may dissuade roaming fleets from attacking without any real purpose other that to pad their killboard.
Customs offices should have a corp hanger (rentable) - Players should be able to grant launch pad access to their corporation
Multiple tax rate - The owner of a customs office should be able to assign different tax rates to the different standing available.
I think all the above could enable the players to create a corp wide business out of the PI system, and we would eventually see the majority of customs offices only being destroyed by competing PI industry corps and not a blob of pirates.
|
Mograthi
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:14:00 -
[864] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
You obviously don't know the player base very well. In 0.0 (aside from old providence style areas) these things will be set so no one but blues will be able to use them. Any POCO setup by a neut or red will be summarily destroyed. Just look at how stations are configured now, we COULD allow neuts to dock for a fee but it doesn't happen so money is not an incentive to make 0.0 folks allow anyone to use the POCO.
In lo sec if they are configured to allow everyone to use them, they will just become nice traps to get easy kills of haulers.
|
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:30:00 -
[865] - Quote
So, I've been reading this forum since yesterday and so far, this is the TL;DR version:
-POCO in null is a decent idea, stay with it -POCO in low-sec is NOT, I repeat, NOT a good idea, as illustrated by the dozens of issues that people already brought up -Tax increase in high sec, well, no one really cares that much because prices will go up to compensate -POCO in WH: great idea if the PI stuff is transferred automatically to a station or a corp hanger on the POCO itself |
Innar Mong
Mong's Marauders The 0rphanage
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:50:00 -
[866] - Quote
Noobs in highsec pay more taxes. Big deal.
00 sov blobbers will pay NO taxes once the additional upfront cost is paid.
Those of us who operate in small gangs and execute PI in lowsec and NPC 00 space to help pay for it are forced to incur additional risk with no additional profit.
Nice job. That sounds like a really positive change. |
Mr Management
Anger Management
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:51:00 -
[867] - Quote
@ the Dev's
Maybe a little suggestion ....................
The designers / teams that are both working on the Capital changes and the PI Changes just ..
Swap over
Maybe then you will get a better idea on how to change the game because you really haven't got a clue at the moment tbh. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:53:00 -
[868] - Quote
Mograthi wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. You obviously don't know the player base very well. In 0.0 (aside from old providence style areas) these things will be set so no one but blues will be able to use them. Any POCO setup by a neut or red will be summarily destroyed. Just look at how stations are configured now, we COULD allow neuts to dock for a fee but it doesn't happen so money is not an incentive to make 0.0 folks allow anyone to use the POCO. In lo sec if they are configured to allow everyone to use them, they will just become nice traps to get easy kills of haulers.
To play devil's advocate here, I guess if you do PI over near devoid or my the providence border you'd be ok. as long as CVA still has that NRDS rule in effect....
Otherwise, there would only be 2-5 of these things per low-sec system, as no one would need to set up any more, and that will only be in the systems with good planets like plasma, lava, or storm. This will create, as people have already said, nice traps that 3-4 people could set and get multiple kills in a day with no worry about getting shot back. |
Vegare
Das zweite Konglomerat The Initiative.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:56:00 -
[869] - Quote
Year 2011, 18th of October: CCP publishes a devblog detailing changes to EVE - changes which are going to add new gameplay and iterate on an older feature. Finally.
One day and 44 pages later: There's an outcry in the community. Again.
On a serious note: Great feature - would love to set different tax rates according to standings though. Noone wants to charge his friends the same as his enemies. Making the CO take alliance standings into consideration would be cool too. |
banton
Intergalactic Combined Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:57:00 -
[870] - Quote
This is a bad idea, in fact i am willing to bet that with it's introduction you will see a real decrease in wh, 0, and low sec PI. the reason is simple, why would i risk assets to provide someone with un defended targets.
The devs will never understand that there are people in this game that are not interested in having to be online ALL the time to defend.
I am now very happy I never set up a PI and now i never will. |
|
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 15:59:00 -
[871] - Quote
Mograthi wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. You obviously don't know the player base very well. In 0.0 (aside from old providence style areas) these things will be set so no one but blues will be able to use them. Any POCO setup by a neut or red will be summarily destroyed. Just look at how stations are configured now, we COULD allow neuts to dock for a fee but it doesn't happen so money is not an incentive to make 0.0 folks allow anyone to use the POCO. In lo sec if they are configured to allow everyone to use them, they will just become nice traps to get easy kills of haulers.
Actually after reading much of this thread I think he does know what the player base is like. I get the distinct impression that it is in fact their intention to make PI an alliance level asset but for some reason they do not want to come out and just admit it openly.
Most of the flaming back and forth on this thread have been about some risk v reward crap, which misses the whole point of many of those who do not like this. It's not a "risk" factor, it's that PI in 0.0 (and probably low sec?) will no longer be assessable to those outside of the alliances at all. As I see it (not in a tinfoil hat way) this fits in with what CCP have stated their goals are for 0.0, that whole "farms and fields" thingy they briefly mentioned, the desire to create more reasons for the big alliances to fight, the whole ABC's in wormhole mess, and they also briefly stated I believe the idea that T2 production should happen mostly in null too. This fits with that.
Now wether or not these are good things, that's a different argument, one that goes to what the nature of 0.0 ad lowsec should be (should all assets in 0.0 be alliance assets by default? Room for anyone outside of the big alliances?). Now I don't really know the answer to that, and I won't even pretend to, but thats the big gorilla everyone in the room is dancing around and it would be nice if CCP would at least stop ignoring it too and quit being so coy about it. Then maybe some actual constructive progress could be made (but probably not). |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:08:00 -
[872] - Quote
I know I've said before (along with a few others) that I'll be selling my PI alts. Never mind that...
I've just sat down and actually crunched the numbers on projected price increases and shifts of resources. High-sec PI will still be profitable, but that's only if the PI production in low-sec takes a marked hit. This, I feel, should be an accurate prediction, as no one wants to spend more money than they would make from a planet: I don't want to have to spend 80+ million ISK for only a few days worth of PI materials before my custom's office get's popped. I'd never make back my investment. This is the way many of the people in low-sec are thinking. As the dev's said before, about 50% of the PI resources on the market come from high sec. I'm seeing that number jumping to anywhere from 80-85% of the resource market after these are implemented. One of the unaccounted changes may be that 0.0 alliances that hold sov could get interested in the investment, as they will be able to defend there occupied systems (no one will put up customs offices in unoccupied systems except maybe ninja PI people). This, however, would still be a logistical nightmare to bring PI products into high-sec areas, along with the other things they bring up to high-sec, like minerals, ships, moon products, etc.
Overall, prices for PI products in high-sec should reach a stabilized price of approximately a 50% increase. The people that live in high sec that do PI don't always do PI in high sec. Many people do PI in low-sec systems near the high-sec border because of increased rewards. take away those rewards, and no one will do PI in low-sec |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:15:00 -
[873] - Quote
Manssell wrote:Mograthi wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. You obviously don't know the player base very well. In 0.0 (aside from old providence style areas) these things will be set so no one but blues will be able to use them. Any POCO setup by a neut or red will be summarily destroyed. Just look at how stations are configured now, we COULD allow neuts to dock for a fee but it doesn't happen so money is not an incentive to make 0.0 folks allow anyone to use the POCO. In lo sec if they are configured to allow everyone to use them, they will just become nice traps to get easy kills of haulers. Actually after reading much of this thread I think he does know what the player base is like. I get the distinct impression that it is in fact their intention to make PI an alliance level asset but for some reason they do not want to come out and just admit it openly. Most of the flaming back and forth on this thread have been about some risk v reward crap, which misses the whole point of many of those who do not like this. It's not a "risk" factor, it's that PI in 0.0 (and probably low sec?) will no longer be assessable to those outside of the alliances at all. As I see it (not in a tinfoil hat way) this fits in with what CCP have stated their goals are for 0.0, that whole "farms and fields" thingy they briefly mentioned, the desire to create more reasons for the big alliances to fight, the whole ABC's in wormhole mess, and they also briefly stated I believe the idea that T2 production should happen mostly in null too. This fits with that. Now wether or not these are good things, that's a different argument, one that goes to what the nature of 0.0 ad lowsec should be (should all assets in 0.0 be alliance assets by default? Room for anyone outside of the big alliances?). Now I don't really know the answer to that, and I won't even pretend to, but thats the big gorilla everyone in the room is dancing around and it would be nice if CCP would at least stop ignoring it too and quit being so coy about it. Then maybe some actual constructive progress could be made (but probably not).
They really just need to say that, BUT they won't because many of the people that play eve don't want to be in alliances or can't be for financial/play time reasons and they'd basically be telling those people to stop doing PI all together (may as well run incursions, right?)
Also, the player base is saying "NO! STOP! THIS IS A BAD IDEA! THINK IT THROUGH MORE!" This is CCP pushing their game mechanics on players that don't have time to be on 20+ hours a week. But, after all, it is their game. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:18:00 -
[874] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:So, I've been reading this forum since yesterday and so far, this is the TL;DR version:
-POCO in null is a decent idea, stay with it -POCO in low-sec is NOT, I repeat, NOT a good idea, as illustrated by the dozens of issues that people already brought up -Tax increase in high sec, well, no one really cares that much because prices will go up to compensate -POCO in WH: great idea if the PI stuff is transferred automatically to a station or a corp hanger on the POCO itself
I've been following as well out of concern for the economy as a whole. You don't need a degree to know that this kind of a supply shock is not what a game like eve needs right now with all of the other options out there these days. Less players = less interaction = less fun. Don't screw this up CCP. This summary is dead on. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:21:00 -
[875] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:So, I've been reading this forum since yesterday and so far, this is the TL;DR version:
-POCO in null is a decent idea, stay with it -POCO in low-sec is NOT, I repeat, NOT a good idea, as illustrated by the dozens of issues that people already brought up -Tax increase in high sec, well, no one really cares that much because prices will go up to compensate -POCO in WH: great idea if the PI stuff is transferred automatically to a station or a corp hanger on the POCO itself I've been following as well out of concern for the economy as a whole. You don't need a degree to know that this kind of a supply shock is not what a game like eve needs right now with all of the other options out there these days. Less players = less interaction = less fun. Don't screw this up CCP. This summary is dead on.
Perhaps I should be on the CSM. lol.
But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes) |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:24:00 -
[876] - Quote
Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?
|
Holy One
SniggWaffe
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:24:00 -
[877] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:So, I've been reading this forum since yesterday and so far, this is the TL;DR version:
-POCO in null is a decent idea, stay with it -POCO in low-sec is NOT, I repeat, NOT a good idea, as illustrated by the dozens of issues that people already brought up -Tax increase in high sec, well, no one really cares that much because prices will go up to compensate -POCO in WH: great idea if the PI stuff is transferred automatically to a station or a corp hanger on the POCO itself I've been following as well out of concern for the economy as a whole. You don't need a degree to know that this kind of a supply shock is not what a game like eve needs right now with all of the other options out there these days. Less players = less interaction = less fun. Don't screw this up CCP. This summary is dead on.
+1
Leave low sec alone. Jack up taxes 5000% for all I care, its still peanuts. POCO will not work in low sec. I will not move to high sec as it won't be worth the time/effort. I will not join a blob alliance just to play eve and I will not 'grind' pve. Ergo you are forcing a lot of people with a lot of invested time and effort out of the game, or on to grind by ripping away low sec.
PI is a casual player's 'in' to eve online. Fiscally it makes no sense as a business decision to encourage those people to quit. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:26:00 -
[878] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:
But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes)
Wait, what are you talking about? why would it be more expensive to do PI in low sec, and why is the idea such a bad one? |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:31:00 -
[879] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?
No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office.
For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:34:00 -
[880] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:
But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes)
Wait, what are you talking about? why would it be more expensive to do PI in low sec, and why is the idea such a bad one?
I'm trying to justify keeping the customs offices in low sec NPC owned. The rewards with doing PI in low-sec now is much greater than that of high-sec, as it should be with the risk of dying and all. If the import/export taxes are a bit higher on the low-sec NPC owned customs offices and if they stay NPC owned, people won't whine and complain as they are doing now. just trying to find a middle ground here. |
|
Holy One
SniggWaffe
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:37:00 -
[881] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?
No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office. For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI.
This and:
1. People are doing it because its reliable. It takes a lot of time to set up supply chains for large scale PI operations, it costs a lot up front in isk, rl cash to pay for character training etc. All of the projected income is accounted for well in advance and any disruption to that supply chain results in accounts not being plexed on time and that results in lost business for ccp.
2. PI is a casual pay style. Forcing people in to the blob/sov/pos mechanic playstyle is not 'adding content' to a feature it is fundamentally changing it in to another play style. One that those people do not want or already choose to participate in/avoid in other aspects of the game.
|
gfldex
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:39:00 -
[882] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:PCO's don't make economic sense. It takes 13,333 robotics units to pay for 1 PCO, at 100% tax. Thats 4444 hours of production, just turning consumer electronics and mechanical parts into robotics, not making the electronics or mechanical parts. Thats over 6 advanced industrial facilities going 24/7 for a month. I don't think there are many planets that can produce that much, month after month.
You imply that the only thing that can be launched from a planet is PI products. I somehow doubt it will stay that way. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:40:00 -
[883] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:PCO's don't make economic sense. It takes 13,333 robotics units to pay for 1 PCO, at 100% tax. Thats 4444 hours of production, just turning consumer electronics and mechanical parts into robotics, not making the electronics or mechanical parts. Thats over 6 advanced industrial facilities going 24/7 for a month. I don't think there are many planets that can produce that much, month after month. You imply that the only thing that can be launched from a planet is PI products. I somehow doubt it will stay that way. I agree, but CCP has yet to mention any of their future plans with planets and DUST 514 in an official capacity. This is one more thing they are releasing piecemeal. I thought that they learned their lesson with the AUR market.... |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:45:00 -
[884] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:
But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes)
Wait, what are you talking about? why would it be more expensive to do PI in low sec, and why is the idea such a bad one? I'm trying to justify keeping the customs offices in low sec NPC owned. The rewards with doing PI in low-sec now is much greater than that of high-sec, as it should be with the risk of dying and all. If the import/export taxes are a bit higher on the low-sec NPC owned customs offices and if they stay NPC owned, people won't whine and complain as they are doing now. just trying to find a middle ground here.
Okay to you are talking specifically about the one man band that does PI in low sec and is unable to defend a customs office if he/she wishes to anchor one...
None of us know how this new feature will effect the game but personally i don't see why a group would destroy a POCO unless they wanted to take that planet over to earn isk from the taxes, so then why would they hike the tax up or exclude people from using the POCO?
|
Innar Mong
Mong's Marauders The 0rphanage
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:47:00 -
[885] - Quote
The more I read folks opinions here, the more I see this change as a way to further those that hold SOV and keep down everyone who does not.
I do have an actual question for the PI Dev team; it is:
What are your specific goals with this new set of features? Has this actually been stated?
It is possible I have missed that, if so, I'm sorry and if you'd point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.
|
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:50:00 -
[886] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:
But on a more serious note, Perhaps if you keep the low-sec customs office NPC owned, but make the tax a bit higher than the high sec tax. OR you could make it so they are owned by the NPC empires that actually hold the sov, and make the tax rate based on standings (even with good standings, the tax should be higher/equal to high sec taxes)
Wait, what are you talking about? why would it be more expensive to do PI in low sec, and why is the idea such a bad one? I'm trying to justify keeping the customs offices in low sec NPC owned. The rewards with doing PI in low-sec now is much greater than that of high-sec, as it should be with the risk of dying and all. If the import/export taxes are a bit higher on the low-sec NPC owned customs offices and if they stay NPC owned, people won't whine and complain as they are doing now. just trying to find a middle ground here. Okay to you are talking specifically about the one man band that does PI in low sec and is unable to defend a customs office if he/she wishes to anchor one... Non of us know how this new feature will effect the game but personally i don't see why a group would destroy a POCO unless they wanted to take that planet over to earn isk from the taxes, so then why would they hike the tax up or exclude people from using the POCO?
Decent point, but you are forgetting the people in eve who do things just to see if they could do them. If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:51:00 -
[887] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?
No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office. For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI. This and: 1. People are doing it because its reliable. It takes a lot of time to set up supply chains for large scale PI operations, it costs a lot up front in isk, rl cash to pay for character training etc. All of the projected income is accounted for well in advance and any disruption to that supply chain results in accounts not being plexed on time and that results in lost business for ccp. 2. PI is a casual pay style. Forcing people in to the blob/sov/pos mechanic playstyle is not 'adding content' to a feature it is fundamentally changing it in to another play style. One that those people do not want or already choose to participate in/avoid in other aspects of the game.
Is it out of the question for these PI alts to contact the dominant force (who also own POCO) in a chosen system and say: "Hey, i would like to continue me PI operation in your system and i'm willing to pay the 10% tax. Please make me blue to your corp."?
|
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
118
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:52:00 -
[888] - Quote
44 pages in less than 48 hours i am impressed
i just repeating my opinion then
While i like the idea the way like it stands now i think will not really work ; there are some good valid points made against this in low sec
so why not instead of taxes rent custom space out for a limited time period to as many individuals you want could be done in contractform i think
or why not XXX isk/m-¦ I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Miraqu
Marquie-X Corp
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:54:00 -
[889] - Quote
Maybe CCP could implement those changes in Null and leave the rest of EvE as it currently is?
They could see how it is used and whats wrong at least. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:54:00 -
[890] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Holy One wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?
No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office. For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI. This and: 1. People are doing it because its reliable. It takes a lot of time to set up supply chains for large scale PI operations, it costs a lot up front in isk, rl cash to pay for character training etc. All of the projected income is accounted for well in advance and any disruption to that supply chain results in accounts not being plexed on time and that results in lost business for ccp. 2. PI is a casual pay style. Forcing people in to the blob/sov/pos mechanic playstyle is not 'adding content' to a feature it is fundamentally changing it in to another play style. One that those people do not want or already choose to participate in/avoid in other aspects of the game. Is it out of the question for these PI alts to contact the dominant force (who also own POCO) in a chosen system and say: "Hey, i would like to continue me PI operation in your system and i'm willing to pay the 10% tax. Please make me blue to your corp."? Very possible, but those standings usually come with a price. Remember, nothing in life is free, and goes doubly for eve. I can see an alliance that can defend these new structures anchoring them and then charging people for standings, possible a cost of 50 million ISK or more just to get standings. That's not including the cost of actually setting up the PI or possible standing resets. |
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Ana Vyr
80
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:54:00 -
[891] - Quote
POCO's are gonna be griefed 24/7. Looks like using lowsec for PI is now not gonna be possible for a solo player. As it stands today, it's a fun minigame sneaking in and out of lowsec with PI goods as a solo player. Kinda like roleplaying a smuggler. Seems like the fun is over. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:57:00 -
[892] - Quote
I just lost a very eloquent post on this matter, and am not happy about it. So you will get a quick and dirty recap.
1: Remove the ability to set standings and restrict access to PCO's via this mechanic.
Without it the only way to restrict easy (non-rocket) access to a particular planet is via 100% tax or by blowing up any PCO's at the planet.
100% tax works for resources that you wish restricted to benefitting the corp (not the members of your corp). You would not do this if you wanted your corp mates to be able to use this planet, or for your own personal gain.
Blowing PCO's up keeps you and your corp mates from using those resources easily.
Eliminating the ability to keep people from using a PCO via standings forces more PCO's to be set with reasonable tax rates, thus making it easier for people outside of a given corp to make use of those resources (whether the owner of the PCO likes it or not).
2: Make the Sig Radius of PCU's very small.
This makes it impractical to take them out easily via capital hot drop, thus making it more difficult (or at least far less desirable) for Null Sec power block's to cyno into low sec to take them out for simple amusement.
Sub Cap use could, and would, still happen... but usually for a purpose instead of a random event.
Pirate groups would still be an issue popping PCO's in Low Sec for fun. Making the classic EVE decision of flight or fight is not a bad thing in my opinion, since these groups usually are a realistic size for many empire based corps to consider taking on... especially since the defender has the advantage of knowing exactly when and where the engagement (post reinforcement) will take place. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:57:00 -
[893] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons.
You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts.
|
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:57:00 -
[894] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:POCO's are gonna be griefed 24/7. Looks like using lowsec for PI is now not gonna be possible for a solo player. As it stands today, it's a fun minigame sneaking in and out of lowsec with PI goods as a solo player. Kinda like roleplaying a smuggler. Seems like the fun is over.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I know that I'll be doing the camping. Why risk a hauler full of PI goods when you could risk a bomber and get PI goods for free, along with a nice shiny kill mail. Not to mention selling the PI gods back to them on the market in the closest station. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:58:00 -
[895] - Quote
Well, at least the zero sec alliance producers will generate more profit risk free. And with all the NAPing going on in those parts of space it must be nice to finally get targets you can steamroll in low sec to get increase your own revenue.
The CSM is truly working as intended. After all, making one game style able to completely dominate all others is really adding to the sandbox. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:58:00 -
[896] - Quote
Sable Moran wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Absolutely need a search function for POCO's - and I really hope CCP Omen you guys had the for sight to prepare that too?
Cause here's the scenario:
- Corp places Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp camps Low Sec Temperate / Barren POCO(s) - Corp waits for Indy Pilot to generate Tax/Tarif revenue - Corp kills Indy Pilot and collects Tier 4 Advanced Commodities (in addition to the tax/tariff they just got) - Corp gets much more preferred Transport Kill Mail - Corp breaks CCPs POCO system, because Corp prefers Kill Mail to tax/tariff revenue - Corp waits for next sucker
Hence a searchability function is essential! THIS OMG THIS!!! count me in btw....in a bomber, not a transport. LOL EDIT: Also, the wallet blink from the tax revenue is a dead give away that someone is using your POCO, essentially alerting people to neutral activity, creating impromptu gate camps. Pirates won't need to camp a POCO, just be in station or a safe waiting for the flashy flashy: Step 1.) pirate sees wallet flash from PI taxes. Step 2.) pirate undocks and warps to the out gate Step 3.).... Step 3.) Another corp jumps in with a bait hauler. Step 4.) Pirate corp engages Step 5.) Second corp jumps in the rest of their fleet and beats the **** out of the pirates Dominus Alterai wrote:Step 4.) PROFIT!!! Indeed.
Step 6.) POCO's become pure low sec battle grounds particularly over Temperate and Barren worlds Step 7.) No one has the ability to see through CCP's rose colored glasses and prefer the economic incentives (ITs the Kill mail stupid) [no offence intended] Step 8.) CCP goes back to the drawing board inorder to try and social rig low sec to fit Dust 514 (And I like Dust btw)
Sarcasm aside I'm gonna call out CCP Omen and Team Pi on one important thing:
When you tell us you'll watch how things go... you're telling us you have no clue how much this might break the game! |
Davelantor
The Resistance Movement The Unforgiven Alliance
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:59:00 -
[897] - Quote
so, in best situation ... a PvP corp will take over the POCO's and set 10% tax (not to mention it will be most likely 25% .. because lets face it .. people are assholes) ... because our corp cant divide resources to camp a spot in middle of nowhere just for a single PI guy can enjoy 0% tax ... NO .. instead now we pay 10% tax .. AND have to compete with WH and 0.0 PI noobs that can and will drive the prices as low as they can because they dont pay any tax for production.
Not to mention while this is happening, a typical new starter that will be very likely confined to high sec. cant get any profit, because he doesnt have enough isk to export the material from the planet ... AWESOME :D |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:05:00 -
[898] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts. If this is CCP's intention, then let them say it, but CCP Omen as repeatedly said that his is a purely economic decision. because let's face it, people like ISK more than kills right?
(That's sarcasm btw) |
Holy One
SniggWaffe
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:06:00 -
[899] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Holy One wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Why are people assuming that low sec dwellers don't do PI?
No one is assuming that. We're saying that Low-sec is too dangerous/indefensible to be able to anchor POCOs on a planet and still make a profit, especially when a relativley small group of battleships can put it into reinforced, preventing you from exporting your PI to the customs office. For those people PI ninjas, you can still launch your PI resources the old fashioned way with a command center launch. You won't be able to launch much, but you can still do PI that way. If CCP increased the cargo capacity of the command centers or even the planetary warehouses (can't remember what they are actually called), all would be well with the world of PI. This and: 1. People are doing it because its reliable. It takes a lot of time to set up supply chains for large scale PI operations, it costs a lot up front in isk, rl cash to pay for character training etc. All of the projected income is accounted for well in advance and any disruption to that supply chain results in accounts not being plexed on time and that results in lost business for ccp. 2. PI is a casual pay style. Forcing people in to the blob/sov/pos mechanic playstyle is not 'adding content' to a feature it is fundamentally changing it in to another play style. One that those people do not want or already choose to participate in/avoid in other aspects of the game. Is it out of the question for these PI alts to contact the dominant force (who also own POCO) in a chosen system and say: "Hey, i would like to continue me PI operation in your system and i'm willing to pay the 10% tax. Please make me blue to your corp."?
lol
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Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
110
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:09:00 -
[900] - Quote
so is this gonna be another of the changes that kills alts off?
seeing as ccp just shed 20% of there staff, which is about the same as the pcu has dropped since they started nerf'ing everything in sight, starting with sanctums and then dual boxing with incrapter
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:09:00 -
[901] - Quote
The economics of this don't add up, at all.
For a P1 harvest world (harvest P0, output P1) in hi-sec, most worlds generate between 1500 and 3500 units of P1 per day which is then exported at 0.76/u (which is, according to CCP, about a "5%" tax rate). That means a hi-sec P1 harvest world generates about 1100-2600 ISK/day in taxes (the tax burden of 0.76 vs market value of the P1 is about 0.12-0.24% currently).
Lo-sec, let's assume that you can harvest 2x more and that null-sec you can harvest 5x more per day.
Each P1 harvest colony then produces between 2200-5200 ISK/day in lo-sec and 5500-13000 ISK/day in null space if taxed at the 5% rate. But we'll say the owners are greedy and charge 100%. So multiply that by 20 and we get 44000-104000 ISK/day in lo-sec and 110000-260000 per day in null.
So for a lo-sec PI harvest world, we can expect that the colony owner will (at most) pay about 75k ISK/day and the null-sec colony owner will pay about 185k ISK/day. Over the course of a month, that solo colony will pay 2.25M ISK in lo-sec and 5.55M ISK in null-sec.
If a micro-POCO costs 50k ISK/day in fuel and a large-POCO costs about 200-300k ISK/day in fuel then the fuel costs can be paid for as long as there is a single colony on the planet. So fuel costs of that magnitude would not be a huge burden (a large POCO would only cost you 9M/mo in fuel).
The main issue is going to be payback of constructing the darned thing in the first place. If we were given a micro-POCO that could be built for about 30M ISK and could anchor about 30M ISK worth of defensive modules, then we would have 60M ISK that needs to be recouped through taxes. If we want a 2-month payback (which is long for EVE) then we need 14 tenants in lo-sec and 6 tenants in null-sec.
But with a large-POCO (costing about 250M for the POCO + defenses), you would need 23 tenants in null-sec and 56 tenants in a low-sec world.
Assuming, of course, that you can charge the 100% tax rate.
Basically, taxes on P1 and P2 are going to have to go up, because the current tax rates won't be high enough to make a P1 harvest world viable enough for the owner to put up a POCO at all. Even if they set their tax rate at 100%. |
Anselm Cenobite
Gold Ring Enterprises Resonance Cascade Scenario
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:10:00 -
[902] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc.
Huh? What about in Wormholes ,where there are no stations to have hangars, but only POSes? Will it be teleported into Corporate Hangar Arrays then? Or into XLSAAs for those of us who use that as the Corp Hangar?
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:14:00 -
[903] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts. If this is CCP's intention, then let them say it, but CCP Omen as repeatedly said that his is a purely economic decision. because let's face it, people like ISK more than kills right? (That's sarcasm btw)
Dominus your mistaken - CCP Omen clearly stated that this change is intended for a political element (back on pg. 11)
He said:
"Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one." (Underline, Bold, Italics added for emphasis)
But again... the change is tolerable so long as we have the ability to make informed decisions as to which POCO's we want to use based on remote statistics of any sort, even basic ones, that does not force a trail and error methodology.
As it stands right now, I'm back up on the fence on this change until I hear or see what if any peripherial changes are to be added in regards to search feature and informational research on POCO owners and their POCO statistics via the MAP for example.
|
Dragnkat
HAMMER STAR BLADE Universal Paranoia Alliance
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:15:00 -
[904] - Quote
Just a quick post before I leave for work @omen.
Go check the prices at dod right now.
It's not just robotics but every material in the chain.
chirai, precious, reactive, and toxic are now all selling at per unit prices easily double or close to triple what it was not even a month ago. Already cruising past 500 per unit in some cases.
Makes me wish I had kept my robotics high sec setup rather then trying to dip my toes into low to make nano factories. the irony is I'd probably be twice as rich.
This is before you've even caused a further price spike by the plan to scrap all the npc custom offices.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE RETHINK THIS!
Or at the very least leave us options! Leave the npcs till a player builds one, increase rocket cap, do one of the many good ideas that have been listed in this thread countless times before you ram this through.
That is unless your actual goal is another monocle scandal, wrecking the PI economy (among other things) Or really just do want to show that EVE is only for the megacorps and screw everyone else. From the casual couple hours a day perspective I've got it's beginning to feel that way once again.
And I'm sure a lot of us would like to see how sec made more viable as a place to play, not turned into a ghost town or a way for the big boys to just steamroll everyone not them that much more. |
Anselm Cenobite
Gold Ring Enterprises Resonance Cascade Scenario
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:16:00 -
[905] - Quote
Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy.
^ This. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:16:00 -
[906] - Quote
Davelantor wrote:so, in best situation ... a PvP corp will take over the POCO's and set 10% tax (not to mention it will be most likely 25% .. because lets face it .. people are assholes) ... because our corp cant divide resources to camp a spot in middle of nowhere just for a single PI guy can enjoy 0% tax ... NO .. instead now we pay 10% tax .. AND have to compete with WH and 0.0 PI noobs that can and will drive the prices as low as they can because they dont pay any tax for production.
Not to mention while this is happening, a typical new starter that will be very likely confined to high sec. cant get any profit, because he doesnt have enough isk to export the material from the planet ... AWESOME :D
Why would you camp a spot. If someone reinforces your PCO you know exactly when it comes out. Now if you don't have the manpower to deal with the threat at that time, that is a separate issue that has nothing to do with PI.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:17:00 -
[907] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts. If this is CCP's intention, then let them say it, but CCP Omen as repeatedly said that his is a purely economic decision. because let's face it, people like ISK more than kills right? (That's sarcasm btw) Dominus your mistaken - CCP Omen clearly stated that this change is intended for a political element (back on pg. 11) He said: "Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one." (Underline, Bold, Italics added for emphasis) But again... the change is tolerable so long as we have the ability to make informed decisions as to which POCO's we want to use based on remote statistics of any sort, even basic ones, that does not force a trail and error methodology. As it stands right now, I'm back up on the fence on this change until I hear or see what if any peripherial changes are to be added in regards to search feature and informational research on POCO owners and their POCO statistics via the MAP for example. I stand corrected.
But in any case, a search function would almost certainly be necessary. I wouldn't want to go 20 jumps to a system with the right planets and find out that it's either owned already or the offices there charge 100% without standings. |
Daedalus II
The Older Gamers
57
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:19:00 -
[908] - Quote
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, or if this will even be read this far into the thread, but a functionality that would be needed now is an ability to see at a glance if I can even use PI on a given planet, perhaps via map filters. Also in case I can use PI, I need to know the tax rate of it. This is important information when setting up a new PI network.
Essentially I see these levels: A. This planet has no customs office B. This planet has a customs office, but it's locked for you C. This planet has a customs office that is available to you (+ tax rate)
In case of C I also need to know the tax rate of it.
Without getting this information on an easy overview, it will be extremely hard to figure out where to set up shop. Maybe I after much searching finds a system consisting of exactly the planets I need to produce some commodity. Only to find out once there that one of the planets are locked for me and therefore the whole chain collapses.
It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out.
How are those who sell their customs services going to be able to attract customers if the customers can't find out that they are the cheapest to use? A market where you can't easily compare different deals is a pretty crappy market. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:19:00 -
[909] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts. If this is CCP's intention, then let them say it, but CCP Omen as repeatedly said that his is a purely economic decision. because let's face it, people like ISK more than kills right? (That's sarcasm btw)
I don't remember him ever saying that this was purely about economics actually. Perhaps I missed something. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:27:00 -
[910] - Quote
Daedalus II wrote:I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, or if this will even be read this far into the thread, but a functionality that would be needed now is an ability to see at a glance if I can even use PI on a given planet, perhaps via map filters. Also in case I can use PI, I need to know the tax rate of it. This is important information when setting up a new PI network.
Essentially I see these levels: A. This planet has no customs office B. This planet has a customs office, but it's locked for you C. This planet has a customs office that is available to you (+ tax rate)
In case of C I also need to know the tax rate of it.
Without getting this information on an easy overview, it will be extremely hard to figure out where to set up shop. Maybe I after much searching finds a system consisting of exactly the planets I need to produce some commodity. Only to find out once there that one of the planets are locked for me and therefore the whole chain collapses.
It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out.
How are those who sell their customs services going to be able to attract customers if the customers can't find out that they are the cheapest to use? A market where you can't easily compare different deals is a pretty crappy market.
I would prefer they simply remove the ability to restrict access by standings first, and then put the relevant tax information on the map. Remember, restricting by placing a 100% tax on your PCO also means that except for corp "drones" your average corp members will not use the planet either. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
|
Tas Nok
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:29:00 -
[911] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Tas Nok wrote:TL:DR I'm out 114.3 mil on PI 1.0 64.8mil on PI 2.0 and now PI 3.0 will cost me 558mil, apparently PI needs to be nerfed repeatedly?
So... You've not made any money at all from PI? Odd, as I'm pulling, with minimal effort, around 10 mil a week, per planet. And that's far from optimal. Risk free isk isn't the way of Eve.
Fair point, I've made between 0-30mil a week depending on prices and if I was even able to do PI. Factor in Taxes, POS fuel, and war decs and it was less than the 10 mil average because I had to go inactive to keep a low profile.
now factor in the 480mil on defenseless, destructible POCO's and while I'm trying to keep a low profile, my corp logo is out there for all to see on 6 useful planets on the overview.
no one cares about my POS on a crap moon, and it will shoot back (yes it has been reinforced for lol's but crap moon in crap space + dickstar + waiting 36 hours = not worth it... YET)
these offices are just targets waiting to happen, its not even griefers I expect, its really going to be the lol-idiot who decides to kill every office in the constellation just because he can for the free KM and the isk bump on his KB, if he gets a fight even better! his blob will be on standby to wipe them out.
perhaps the reinforcement timer will help but if I have to move a carrier here full time just to rep my customs offices, then this is a losing proposition until prices spike so high that HS becomes profitable again
I don't expect Eve to be risk free, far from it, that's why I don't run missions anymore, but for something vital to the operation of corp assets and the eve economy this is an odd way to make it better.
and YES it is possible that between LS yarr watching their wallets flash to go kill the cloaky hauler , to offices put up and protected by huge alliances, and the HS production which just got a boost, but also will get a higher tax, this might all wash out because just what eve needs is another pile of immovable objects to shoot at. |
ThaWolf
The Executives Executive Outcomes
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:31:00 -
[912] - Quote
Well this looks like a small gang pvp opurtunity, which i would love from the pvp perspective, but thats not what it rely is.
This is the death blow on EVE Industry.
POS fuel will skyrocket, which will cause that T2 Invention (gambling) will now finally fall off to be cost effective, which it barely is atm, so ppl will stop doing it, T2 Items and Ship prices will skyrocket, all of EVE will fly Drakes and Canes with T1 Items again.
Why? PI is crap, not as much as a clickfest as it was but still far too much and still entirely unfunny for a GAME!
Now it will become Corporate Controlled instead of being personal Industry, which means that ppl doing PI in Lowsek and NPC 0.0 (PI in Empire it utterly worthless), with great risk (loosing a Covert hauler is worth months of PI) will just plainly stop doing it, since the local thugs will just blow up the COs if somebody is stupid enough to put one up there.
Industry nerv is exactly what EVE needs atm.... |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:38:00 -
[913] - Quote
ThaWolf wrote:Well this looks like a small gang pvp opurtunity, which i would love from the pvp perspective, but thats not what it rely is.
This is the death blow on EVE Industry.
POS fuel will skyrocket, which will cause that T2 Invention (gambling) will now finally fall off to be cost effective, which it barely is atm, so ppl will stop doing it, T2 Items and Ship prices will skyrocket, all of EVE will fly Drakes and Canes with T1 Items again.
Why? PI is crap, not as much as a clickfest as it was but still far too much and still entirely unfunny for a GAME!
Now it will become Corporate Controlled instead of being personal Industry, which means that ppl doing PI in Lowsek and NPC 0.0 (PI in Empire it utterly worthless), with great risk (loosing a Covert hauler is worth months of PI) will just plainly stop doing it, since the local thugs will just blow up the COs if somebody is stupid enough to put one up there.
Industry nerv is exactly what EVE needs atm....
THIS^^
The eve market is almost all inter-related. PI product prices go up, which means fuel costs go up, which means prices for everything made or invented or researched at a POS will go up.
Unless CCP is planning on giving the high sec planets a slight buff, I completely agree. Here comes the T1 drake blobs all over again... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:52:00 -
[914] - Quote
CCP Omen
I'm coming to the realization that it's not POCO that is at issue, it is those things that are being left out of development of POCO that is at issue:
- HSec Custom's Office need not to have a 100% Tariff right at release!?
- Based on your own responses, about waiting and observing, and taking action as necessary; it is unconscionable to place that type of tariff on day one.
- Such NPC-CO Tariff increases should be implemented on a phased basis, if nothing else for economic considerations (and I don't just mean mine personally) - and should be fairly similar to how BPO Research is done via NPC Stations, vs. POS Research Arrays. Yes increase the tariff, but be rational about its implementation, since you and your team admittedly are only speculating that this change will work as intended from the outset, and will require continued monitoring and refinement. ** And lowering the defaults to artificially regulate the taxation rates is a flawed strategy. **
- I also am at a loss as to why trade skills, including social skills, were not included in having an impact on HSec tariff rates - no different than Recycling, and Market transactions are impacted by skills??!
- No mention of any type of research tools on POCO's via the MAP or otherwise?
- Plus your WIPING OUT all NPC-CO's upon release!? Instead of simply nerfing them as regards m3 volumes, etc. to such an extent that it becomes essential as well as advantageous to destroy the thing and put on a POCO???!!
While this change as presented has merit, this is negligent implementation for such a remarkably complex game; it is Shooting at Structures as has been pointed out, and should have been clearly stated as to where this change is meant to take us (i.e. moving toward DUST 514), without adding peripherial POCO research tools has the potential to severly disenfranchise PI colony operators, has the serious potential to create a economic shock to the market and game which is now dependent on player driven commocities!
I see this being akin to the removal of ship spinning... and Team Pi should proceed cautiously and learn from such mistakes.
Lastly, while this is CCP's game, and as a company you can not always do what the vocal minority wants you to do, admitedly there is so much positive development that has been brought to it over the years... that I do still trust CCP's development motivations; however, I hope every desk at CCP (world wide) has a hard copy of Hilmar's appology letter hanging next to their desk - that they read it every day they start work so a proper perspective is always maintained.
Because EVE is growing so complex, that after the CSM, and when you open planned features to public input (like this thread), that CCP DevBlog posts need to also 'clearly' inform us that WE the community are being given an opportunity to provide positive and helpful feedback? Instead of being told of things being a good idea, or being added to the wish list by way of placation.
I really hope you will answer these points. Because the more I consider what's being left out of this change the more concerned I become. |
Tetragammatron Prime
Pink Sockers
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:53:00 -
[915] - Quote
If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:56:00 -
[916] - Quote
We've seen 2 devs stick their heads in here and back out quickly. I hope they realize what a clustercrap this change is and how many things they didn't think about when making the change. What happened to identifying a problem and fixing it instead of trying to make the current PI process relevant to DUST?
A question to the devs, with all the problems brought out in this thread, are you going to actually take anything stated here and rethink your deployment or act like this thread didn't exist and feign surprise when it craps with the game?
The one thing I have taken from this thread is how disconnected the developers are to the game. When the main premise for making this change work is a "hope" the players work together and not understanding why a corporation would lockout someone v. "making isk from taxes" really shows why this game is dying and why CCP has to start cutting staff.
The "we'll watch and make changes if needed" is a bold face lie. How long did it take to make the first PI changes, while we are at it how about the FW changes, POS changes, Sov changes, etc etc etc. CCP doesn't fix things once it is in game, you move on to the next shiny. I'm sorry but team PI is only here to make the connection between DUST and EVE, they have no clue about the existing game mechanics and will send another group of people packing when you nerf industry like this. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:58:00 -
[917] - Quote
Tetragammatron Prime wrote:If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails.
Translation: Lulz we took your tax money, killed your hauler, and now have all sorts of valuable industry goodies that took us no effort/time/cost to produce while orgying around our KB. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:59:00 -
[918] - Quote
Tetragammatron Prime wrote:If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails.
Through what mechanism?
No information has been presented by Team Pi regarding any search-ability function associated with POCO's
I think they need to be allowed to connect with the team that works on ingame metrics and the MAP to make this change practical, and not a POCO Beta |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:09:00 -
[919] - Quote
Daedalus II wrote:It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out.
Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway.
Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight. |
|
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:12:00 -
[920] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Here are the four things PI really needs:...
I wish there was a way to vote for you to be in charge of PI. All excellent points that would drastically improve PI (and use it as a template for fixing other stuff, like S&I). |
|
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
114
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:17:00 -
[921] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Daedalus II wrote:It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight.
are you forgetting this crap and rebuilding pi form the ground up? making it liek what you said it was gonna be(close will do) at the fanfest 09? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:29:00 -
[922] - Quote
If NPC-CO's are tarifed at 100% then this will become the benchmark, and there is very low incentive to adjust Low Sec POCO's to a lower tarif...
Why? Because of resource concentrations!
The Supply Demand principle isn't the existence of the POCO, the Supply Demand principle is in the richness of resource concentrations. Therefore Corporations have no incentive to lower tarifs below their maximum since the demand will be on the resource concentrations and not on the tarif rate...
To discourage 100% tarifs the NPC-CO tarif benchmark must be set to a level that allows a market sustainability without resorting to CCP tampering with the price benchmarks for commodity tarifs.
This should not become a zero sum game, and a more compromised approach to NPC-CO's needs to be reviewed.
** And for God's sake don't wipe all the NPC-CO's - at the very least phase them out by:
- Making them attackable in those regions where they are slated to be replaced
- Nerf them so there is an incentive to replace them with a POCO
- (or at the minimum - do this solely with Temperate and Barren planets since by design they are the planets that see the majority of Import and Export activity) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:31:00 -
[923] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Tetragammatron Prime wrote:If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails. Through what mechanism? No information has been presented by Team Pi regarding any search-ability function associated with POCO's I think they need to be allowed to connect with the team that works on ingame metrics and the MAP to make this change practical, and not a POCO Beta
It should be possible to search for them through the Science and Industry window - but you should only be able to see POCOs that you are allowed to use.
By limiting the S&I window searching to only the POCOs that you qualify for, an organization that wishes to "fly by night" and keep a low profile could simply restrict usage of the POCO to their closest friends (or just their corp members). Their POCO would not show up on the S&I screen and in order for someone to find the POCO they would have to fly out to the planet's customs office location and look (just like a modern POS). This would give security to the POCO similar to that of existing POS towers in that you would have to survey the system regularly to find POCOs that don't show up in the S&I window.
I don't believe that POCOs should show up on the overview unless on-grid, but their warp-in points should (just like moons - the moons are on the overview, but the towers are not unless you are on-grid).
The S&I window would need a filter for "current solar system", "current constellation", "current region" - just like when you search for lab slots. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
184
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:31:00 -
[924] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Daedalus II wrote:It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight.
I'm guilty of that, fair enough, please accept the apologies of the anxiously impatient.
Request for consideration - accessibility to our PI in wormholes should the customs offices go "poof" and we don't have these players owned things yet... the launching mechanic won't work because our PI isn't attached anymore to the command center... it's moved around following the resources. The likely prohibitive cost of these facilities (at least initially) will make it take forever, if at all, to recoup the cost... especially in wormholes where we're not taxing our own people for the fuel they're putting in the pos.
Also the need to import materials to planets without these things.
It really feels like wormhole considerations were overlooked. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:33:00 -
[925] - Quote
All this doom and gloom. I think this change will be great. Sure prices will spike, sure somethings will become more expensive (T2 production, POS's etc). But there will be many chances to profit also.
Everyone can set up PI with very little training. And hi-sec PI will cost a little more with taxes, but that cost will just get passed on or you can move to a player run CO if you think the prices are too high. You have the option.
And who knows, we may have a few more battles over these POCO's, which is always a good thing.
Allocate resources to FiS |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:35:00 -
[926] - Quote
POCOs need to be nameable - just like POS towers.
(They also need the ability to base taxes on standings, as has been suggested multiple times.) |
Acorn FB
Puppeteers of Doom Real Life Rejects
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:35:00 -
[927] - Quote
Here is the problem I see, at first the low sec peeps will have a shortage of POCOs, then they will spend the next few weeks struggling to get some up only to have some pirate blow it up and put a high tax rate in place just for the tears. Then the real nightmare begins.
Some null sec alliance is going to figure out CCP has just offered them free isk to the extent not seen since the early moon goo days. The mechanic will look like this, find a few systems that offer good planets and then rush that solar system and its neighboring systems. The force will be well beyond the capabilities of local pirates and within two days all good planets and most others will have the official Goonswarm approved version of the POCO. THey will then set the taxes at such a point to extract most of the profit from PI, leaving just enough to keep their little PI slaves thinking hey have a chance.
Base a few hundred BS, HACS, etc. in the center system and anyone who messes with them dies, tell your null sec friends and enemies that this is your area, but you can have the next set of systems and BOOM free money. Amusingly the null sec alliances may able to manipulae prices of some PI materials by messing with tax rates on specific POCOs, pull bait and switches, by lowering a rate on a set of planets then raising them when people invest in them etc.
So basically we are all going to be working for our nullsec overlords. Guess the CSM is earning their paychecks.
One last thing if you go through with this, make low sec THE place for PI give it the highest rates of PI, basically flipping it with null sec so may at least you can create the LO SEC PI WARS. |
Belisarius Xenophon
Buzzkill Joy Club
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:39:00 -
[928] - Quote
When are the covert PI facilies (requires planetary scanning to locate) and the customs smuggler class ships (to try to avoid paying tariffs to the supposedly controlling customs officers) going to be released? |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:41:00 -
[929] - Quote
Anselm Cenobite wrote:Pipip Mendicant wrote:Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable.
It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy. ^ This.
+ 1 |
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:43:00 -
[930] - Quote
It almost seems like what they need to do is implement LESS flexibility in the tax controls in order to polarize the options into schemes that preserve expectations of all the people that appreciate PI.
It should be impossible to shut everyone out, or impose such a ridiculously large tax ever. The idea would to be create a situation where you hope whoever owns the current station isn't a major jerk and has the highest setting of say 30% tax enabled, but even if he does you might be able to live with it.
Now If you are an affiliation that wants to block a system from having a useable CO, then you should have to go back every other day and blow it up. The default state for blocked means no CO at all. THis will prevent large alliances from just plugging in a station and shutting it down or maxing the tax to 100% in order to block its use, they would now have to really care enough to invest the time to scout the system often to make sure someone doesn't keep one errected. |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:43:00 -
[931] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Daedalus II wrote:It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight.
Good to hear.
There have been some good points made, and a whole lot of points made by people that either have reading comprehension issues or don't understand the social vs. economic forces at play in EVE.
Just to point out a couple of things worth considering.
1: Consider making rocket payloads a bit larger as an alternative. 2: Consider solutions for people who can't launch a rocket because of command center placement. 3: Consider removing the ability to control access via standings. Control via 100% tax has serious (good) drawbacks that encourage reasonable tax rates and better availability to the general public. 4: Consider making PCO's sig radius small enough to discourage cap use (hot drops to gank the PCO).
Thanks for your efforts in this. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:43:00 -
[932] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:POCOs need to be nameable - just like POS towers.
(They also need the ability to base taxes on standings, as has been suggested multiple times.) no, they don't need to be nameable.... |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:47:00 -
[933] - Quote
1. WH space - I don't see PI done in WH space with the intention of selling it on the market. It's used for POS fuel and manufacturing in the WH. PI goods made in WH's have no significant effect on the market. PITA to get a CO installed, but once done, business as usual, and no change to income.
2. Null sec - I think, don't know, that much of the PI in null space is intended for the use by the corps/alliances in null sec, also for POS fuel and manufacturing. Certainly more gets to the market than in WH, but I really question how significant it is. Gut feeling is that it's not real significant. I think it discourages ninja PI, since it's pretty much agreed that few would allow non blue to use a CO. It makes low sec more attractive than null sec, since you can't launch all you produce.
3. PCO's in low sec - very poor return on investment, especially given the risk of loss. They are not worth putting up, not worth attacking, and not worth defending if they were. Launch stuff from your command center, haul it to high sec and produce the higher tier stuff on a production planet. If you disagree about the return on investment, do the math.
4. High sec - basically unchanged. Tax rates are currently insignificant, and doubling them doesn't change that much, especially since it's pretty universally agreed that the PI prices will go up.
The stated goal of allowing getting income from CO taxation - don't see how the implementation as described achieves this goal, in any sec status system.
The stated goal of increasing player interaction - in WH and null, don't see much change here from the current system. In high sec, player interaction is irrelevant, I don't see the risk nor reward changing much in high sec. Low sec - since I don't see CO's being put up much, the player interaction goes down. You can't camp a CO that doesn't exist. Not that many people camp CO's currently, never seen a CO camp in months of doing PI. So I think player interaction is either unchanged or decreased depending on the sec status of the system. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:48:00 -
[934] - Quote
Acorn FB wrote:Here is the problem I see, at first the low sec peeps will have a shortage of POCOs, then they will spend the next few weeks struggling to get some up only to have some pirate blow it up and put a high tax rate in place just for the tears. Then the real nightmare begins.
Some null sec alliance is going to figure out CCP has just offered them free isk to the extent not seen since the early moon goo days. The mechanic will look like this, find a few systems that offer good planets and then rush that solar system and its neighboring systems. The force will be well beyond the capabilities of local pirates and within two days all good planets and most others will have the official Goonswarm approved version of the POCO. THey will then set the taxes at such a point to extract most of the profit from PI, leaving just enough to keep their little PI slaves thinking hey have a chance.
Base a few hundred BS, HACS, etc. in the center system and anyone who messes with them dies, tell your null sec friends and enemies that this is your area, but you can have the next set of systems and BOOM free money. Amusingly the null sec alliances may able to manipulae prices of some PI materials by messing with tax rates on specific POCOs, pull bait and switches, by lowering a rate on a set of planets then raising them when people invest in them etc.
So basically we are all going to be working for our nullsec overlords. Guess the CSM is earning their paychecks.
One last thing if you go through with this, make low sec THE place for PI give it the highest rates of PI, basically flipping it with null sec so may at least you can create the LO SEC PI WARS.
I find the idea of any large Null sec entity spending significant amounts of time to extract an extra pittance from their corp members PI efforts fairly amusing.
I would not object to PI having the best rewards in Low Sec however... that could be interesting.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:53:00 -
[935] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:POCOs need to be nameable - just like POS towers.
(They also need the ability to base taxes on standings, as has been suggested multiple times.)
I don't care about naming, but I wouldn't object to it either.
No, POCO's do not need the ability to more selectively exclude/penelize people from using them. Rather they need to keep to one tax rate (that applies to everyone including the owning corps members) and lose the ability to keep people out via their standings.
This would vastly encourage the proliferation of available POCO's throughout Low and even Null Sec space.
Restricting people from using a planets resources should be the job of your fleet, or eventually DUST merc's... not the tax man or diplomats. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Alasik
The Ostrogoths Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:56:00 -
[936] - Quote
You are going to ruin the PI industry doing it this way. It is going to end up not being worth it for alliances/corporations to come running to save the Custom Offices when frig and bc wipe out all the CO's in a system. This will force all PI characters to high sec for little resources and drive up the price. I am not sure if someone has already suggested this, but this is how it should work.
1. CO's are built and sold as you plan. 2. System Alliance/Corporation owners are the only ones who can drop the CO's on the planets and are the only ones who can edit the security/tax price. They are also the ones who receive the tax. 3. Just like stations they are invulnerable until the system is SBU'ed and remove the reinforcement timer. This way by the time the system is SBU'ed and the station is taken all you have to do is warp to each planet and take out the CO's to put up your own.
POS, SBU, and Station shooting/saving is boring enough, please dont make us even more bored and we just give up on CO's all together!!
EDIT: Low sec and High sec should be controlled and taxed by concord the same way it is now. |
Jada Maroo
Mysterium Astrometrics BRABODEN
282
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:57:00 -
[937] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:1: Consider making rocket payloads a bit larger as an alternative.
This, this, and this. Doesn't need to be a huge expansion. There still needs to be an overwhelming advantage for space ports / customs. But CC should be able to hold and launch, say, 2000m3. Even 1500 would be nice. 500 is just silly. |
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:58:00 -
[938] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Why not: Okay it's like this EVE Community - even though we should have started PI this way in the first place, we did it backwards and are now trying to fix it. And we need your help. We have a working code, but need additional input so that we just 'fracture' your game a little, instead of breaking it and further decrease our subscriber base... and do so just after one of the largest population drops in the games running history - which was so bad it caused Hilmar to openly appologize to all of you [[which was appreciated btw]]
CCP and Team Pi we know you need to address Planteary Interaction... but DO NOT give us a beta for you to tweak - I have no problem with increased risk... so long as I have the additional search/ informational tools to determine if that risk is worth taking.
Risk Is Good - but it needs the be coupled with knowledge to make it work right!!!
I agree with the majority of your points, but i gotta be honest....
If they take your advice and design their features your way, they'll never make it out of forum discussions ever. They will design, implement, and iterate around in circles endlessly as sentiments give and tug, and we all hem and haw.
Sooner or later, you gotta put that new swingset down in the sand box to see what your monkeys are going to do with it.
|
Acorn FB
Puppeteers of Doom Real Life Rejects
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:00:00 -
[939] - Quote
Actually you missed my point about the null sec allaince, will "take over" a low sec cluster, they will not actually live there or PI there just collect tarriffs. They will just set up a small reserve fleet of ships so that a group of their pilots can just Warp clone there or may be just one cyno pilot and bring capitals/ super caps in, basically the fear of going head to head with them will keep their POCOs safe and they just get the free money from everyone else, the null sec ones in their own system will probaly have very low tax rates.
THey will be incontrol of a bottle neck and as everyone knows who deals in the market, the controler bottleneck makes the money. They do not have to manufacturer, or farm , or offer a service, by the might of their sword they will take the largest share. |
Par'Gellen
Neon Cranium
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:04:00 -
[940] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Par'Gellen wrote:Here are the four things PI really needs:... I wish there was a way to vote for you to be in charge of PI. All excellent points that would drastically improve PI (and use it as a template for fixing other stuff, like S&I). Why thank you :) I'd be more than happy to accept the position if CCP offered it to me! |
|
Chard Kalan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:06:00 -
[941] - Quote
I don't do any sort of PI, but I don't really like this:
1. BPCs should not be an LP reward. It forces people to either run incursions / join faction warfare, use an alt for one of these activities, or pay through the nose for a BPC.
2. There is nothing to prevent a large alliance from getting a lot of BPCs and spamming every planet in a system, constellation, or region. A decent upkeep amount would help to mitigate this issue.
3. This will very likely drive up already high POS fuel prices.
4. This will potentially eliminate a source of income for players in NPC corporations and small corporations.
5. Because there are no native defenses around a POCO, it's effectively a giant bullseye if it's deployed by a smaller corp.
This to me just seems to encourage people to join large alliances that will have the means to spam POCOs and the manpower to defend them, effectively eliminating the smaller corporations from the PI game. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
111
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:06:00 -
[942] - Quote
Acorn FB wrote:Here is the problem I see, at first the low sec peeps will have a shortage of POCOs, then they will spend the next few weeks struggling to get some up only to have some pirate blow it up and put a high tax rate in place just for the tears. Then the real nightmare begins.
Some null sec alliance is going to figure out CCP has just offered them free isk to the extent not seen since the early moon goo days. The mechanic will look like this, find a few systems that offer good planets and then rush that solar system and its neighboring systems. The force will be well beyond the capabilities of local pirates and within two days all good planets and most others will have the official Goonswarm approved version of the POCO. THey will then set the taxes at such a point to extract most of the profit from PI, leaving just enough to keep their little PI slaves thinking hey have a chance.
Base a few hundred BS, HACS, etc. in the center system and anyone who messes with them dies, tell your null sec friends and enemies that this is your area, but you can have the next set of systems and BOOM free money. Amusingly the null sec alliances may able to manipulae prices of some PI materials by messing with tax rates on specific POCOs, pull bait and switches, by lowering a rate on a set of planets then raising them when people invest in them etc.
So basically we are all going to be working for our nullsec overlords. Guess the CSM is earning their paychecks.
One last thing if you go through with this, make low sec THE place for PI give it the highest rates of PI, basically flipping it with null sec so may at least you can create the LO SEC PI WARS.
LOL
Tinfoil prices just jumped up at least.
For any of that doomsday scenario to come true, you'd have to assume first that lowsec was a hotbed of ANY activity, let alone PI activity, and that Goons or some other 0.0 alliance would get so hot and bothered about the hundreds of THOUSANDS of isk flowing through PI taxes compared to the hundreds of MILLIONS of isk in their moon goo. Yeah, I see NC. rushing right out ot conquer the lowsec PI cash cow planets.
All I see are people who are so afraid of lowsec that they assume everything that goes there dies or blows up within minutes complaining that they won't be able to ninja the lowsec PI anymore. That, and the occasional WH reisdent loathing yet another logistics mess to manage (once) to build another few structures on the planets.
The game is about player vs. player interaction. This is a step in taking essentially free PI income into the realm of player interaction again. It's all good. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:08:00 -
[943] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:1. WH space - I don't see PI done in WH space with the intention of selling it on the market. It's used for POS fuel and manufacturing in the WH. PI goods made in WH's have no significant effect on the market. PITA to get a CO installed, but once done, business as usual, and no change to income.
2. Null sec - I think, don't know, that much of the PI in null space is intended for the use by the corps/alliances in null sec, also for POS fuel and manufacturing. Certainly more gets to the market than in WH, but I really question how significant it is. Gut feeling is that it's not real significant. I think it discourages ninja PI, since it's pretty much agreed that few would allow non blue to use a CO. It makes low sec more attractive than null sec, since you can't launch all you produce.
3. PCO's in low sec - very poor return on investment, especially given the risk of loss. They are not worth putting up, not worth attacking, and not worth defending if they were. Launch stuff from your command center, haul it to high sec and produce the higher tier stuff on a production planet. If you disagree about the return on investment, do the math.
4. High sec - basically unchanged. Tax rates are currently insignificant, and doubling them doesn't change that much, especially since it's pretty universally agreed that the PI prices will go up.
The stated goal of allowing getting income from CO taxation - don't see how the implementation as described achieves this goal, in any sec status system.
The stated goal of increasing player interaction - in WH and null, don't see much change here from the current system. In high sec, player interaction is irrelevant, I don't see the risk nor reward changing much in high sec. Low sec - since I don't see CO's being put up much, the player interaction goes down. You can't camp a CO that doesn't exist. Not that many people camp CO's currently, never seen a CO camp in months of doing PI. So I think player interaction is either unchanged or decreased depending on the sec status of the system.
I agree with you, its funny cause if theirs any goals here to have the efforts of the CO holder to see some monetization rewards in this as a landlord, they could only effectually ever be realized in high sec.
In fact, i would even go as far as saying they should allow CO's in high sec to have owners, but the tax rate always stays the same, just the sticker on the CO can be fought and won so someone gets to stick their hand in the cookie jar should they want to.
The problem with this feature only ever comes into play if you analyze the controls the CO owner can impose. Take the controls away and just have all CO's have a flat tax and this system might be win. |
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:09:00 -
[944] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Daedalus II wrote:It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight.
Wait, so you have to travel all the way to a system just to view the customs tax? That's crazy dude.
I assume you are aware that it's possible to view/scan a planet out of system (range depending on your remote sensing skill) so why not add the tax information to that screen?
I do not want a search option like some people are saying because that makes it too easy for that planet to be ome over run, but people do need some way of remotely viewing tax.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:12:00 -
[945] - Quote
Bodega Cat wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Why not: Okay it's like this EVE Community - even though we should have started PI this way in the first place, we did it backwards and are now trying to fix it. And we need your help. We have a working code, but need additional input so that we just 'fracture' your game a little, instead of breaking it and further decrease our subscriber base... and do so just after one of the largest population drops in the games running history - which was so bad it caused Hilmar to openly appologize to all of you [[which was appreciated btw]]
CCP and Team Pi we know you need to address Planteary Interaction... but DO NOT give us a beta for you to tweak - I have no problem with increased risk... so long as I have the additional search/ informational tools to determine if that risk is worth taking.
Risk Is Good - but it needs the be coupled with knowledge to make it work right!!!
I agree with the majority of your points, but i gotta be honest.... If they take your advice and design their features your way, they'll never make it out of forum discussions ever. They will design, implement, and iterate around in circles endlessly as sentiments give and tug, and we all hem and haw. Sooner or later, you gotta put that new swingset down in the sand box to see what your monkeys are going to do with it.
I don't disagree.... but the extreme lack of peripherial elements seems like this has been looked at as a minor update when it isn't minor at all.
Take roles for example:
There should be a specialized role for Custom's Officer under the roles normally associated with POS's -
Why?
Because there should be a clear delination between Corp POS assets and POCO's --- where POS roles in many corps is a trusted position and practically a full time job. Corps should be able to still give POCO roles to someone, probably the resident Corp PI expert that has no POS roles in the first place, without necessarily moving directly to POS roles.
This is one example of how what has been presented thus far seems 'limited' in scope vs. it's impact. |
Aph3xus
Focused Annihilation Detrimental Imperative
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:13:00 -
[946] - Quote
It seems to me that this is indeed a better system and one that definitely fits better with EVE's universe, but that it should have been implemented when PI was introduced. Now that the economy and the player base are used to the current system, simply removing all the custom offices in low, null, and WH space strikes me as a terrible idea. I like the idea of player controlled custom offices. I just tend to agree with many posts here that at this point it should be a gradual shift towards that and that simply removing all the existing NPC custom offices would make the switch more painful then it needed to be.
I read through the first 10 pages of comments or so and didn't see anything about a question that has been eating at me: How many customs offices would each corporation be able to control? Would there even be a limit? My apologies if this was answered somewhere and I missed it.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:17:00 -
[947] - Quote
Jada Maroo wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:1: Consider making rocket payloads a bit larger as an alternative. This, this, and this. Doesn't need to be a huge expansion. There still needs to be an overwhelming advantage for space ports / customs. But CC should be able to hold and launch, say, 2000m3. Even 1500 would be nice. 500 is just silly.
Thank you for your support on that point.
However, it is even more important to ensure/encourage that people have access to a wide range of planets through the more efficient POCO is to remove the ability to control access via standings. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:20:00 -
[948] - Quote
Aph3xus wrote:It seems to me that this is indeed a better system and one that definitely fits better with EVE's universe, but that it should have been implemented when PI was introduced. Now that the economy and the player base are used to the current system, simply removing all the custom offices in low, null, and WH space strikes me as a terrible idea. I like the idea of player controlled custom offices. I just tend to agree with many posts here that at this point it should be a gradual shift towards that and that simply removing all the existing NPC custom offices would make the switch more painful then it needed to be.
I read through the first 10 pages of comments or so and didn't see anything about a question that has been eating at me: How many customs offices would each corporation be able to control? Would there even be a limit? My apologies if this was answered somewhere and I missed it.
Like POS's it will be unlimited - though with POS's there is a maintenance element that does not exist with POCO's
So POCO spamming will supplant the POS Spamming of old. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:20:00 -
[949] - Quote
Spanking Monkeys wrote:i cant belive this is something you have worked on for a while CCP owen. this is a badly thought out structure driven boring activity, rather than just a boring activity. started offlining pos's already cos theres no way currently to absorb the extra costs involved. glad i have 3 months worth of fuel stored for 6 towers. i now have 18months for the 1 that will stay.
i just dont see why you at ccp are always trying to **** over the smaller guys/corps/alliances. this is directly what your doing here, have no doubt about it.
This is exactly why I've continued to run for the CSM to try and make CCP consider the "little guy". The solo player, the little indy corp or alliance. Clearly someone in the CSM needs to advocating for that segement of the pilots of Eve because this is another example of how CCP just doesn't get it!
Once again CCP screws the "little guy" and continues its focus on driving us to the "end game" when there is no "end game" in a sandbox MMO with a player dirven ecconomy!
This idea make low sec even worse, ruins an activity a lot of Eve players enjoyed, risks messing up a lot of the Eve ecconomy and shows how little CCP actually accepts the nature of the players in its own game. The profit motive and alturistic nature that CCP expects to be present in the wasteland of low sec doesn't exist! The folks there are going to blow up anything not defended and drive the few remaining residents of low sec out (maybe entirely out of Eve).
CCP you don't understand stick and carrot, this idea has neither, this is marshmellow/flounder.
Here is what really scares me about this idea. It clearly has been in the works for a while, it has had resources applied and sounds close to complete. It sounds like it wasn't disucssed with the CSM (or we have another reason to worry about the CSM). This was done while CCP failed to work on other unfinished or broken content. What other things are in the "bad idea" queue CCP?
What other seriously half baked game breaking "features" have you developed instead of finishing or fixing all the other things here in the 'verse?
So to the critics that say I am just being negative here is how you fix this idea.
1. Null sec and WH's work as planned. 2. Structures have to be "serviced" every 30 days by the owners or the shields and structure drop to 0 and be single shot popped. 3. High sec taxes can rise but only after the correct numbers have been determined after real study, not just a lazy doubling. 4. Low sec CO belong to the pirate faction dominant in the system they are in. To access them you have to work out your NPC pirate issues. 5. Rockets get a lot bigger and you are allowed to drop supplies to the planet. 6. Rocket launches and orbital deliveres happen at the launch facilities, not the command center. 7. I can hack a CO and steal whats inside in WH and Null, I can in low sec but I have to fight off an NPC pirate spawn to do it.
Do that and I think I can endorse your product or service.
Issler |
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:25:00 -
[950] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Daedalus II wrote:It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight.
I think that much of the POCO concept is sound. There might be some market fluctuation, and yes it's possible prices will rise but the market should balance itself out over time.
PI has, so far, been a relatively risk free activity with limited player to player interaction. The POCO concept will increase player interaction: that won't be universally popular but in my view it's better to introduce that change now, than wait until DUST514's impact - when you can reliably expect uproar from PI manufacturers when their networks get nuked from orbit or razed to the ground by dust bunnies.
Change is hard, but for too long EVEs players have forgotten the maxim: adapt or die.
C.
|
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:30:00 -
[951] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Tetragammatron Prime wrote:If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails. Through what mechanism? No information has been presented by Team Pi regarding any search-ability function associated with POCO's I think they need to be allowed to connect with the team that works on ingame metrics and the MAP to make this change practical, and not a POCO Beta It should be possible to search for them through the Science and Industry window - but you should only be able to see POCOs that you are allowed to use. By limiting the S&I window searching to only the POCOs that you qualify for, an organization that wishes to "fly by night" and keep a low profile could simply restrict usage of the POCO to their closest friends (or just their corp members). Their POCO would not show up on the S&I screen and in order for someone to find the POCO they would have to fly out to the planet's customs office location and look (just like a modern POS). This would give security to the POCO similar to that of existing POS towers in that you would have to survey the system regularly to find POCOs that don't show up in the S&I window. I don't believe that POCOs should show up on the overview unless on-grid, but their warp-in points should (just like moons - the moons are on the overview, but the towers are not unless you are on-grid). The S&I window would need a filter for "current solar system", "current constellation", "current region" - just like when you search for lab slots.
Based on what I have understood from CCP Omen thus far, I'm beginning to wonder if it might not just be better to set a universal tarif setting and intentionally dispense with standings?
Reason: If the intention is to maintain economic productivity while also increasing player interaction, then removing standings settings eliminates policization of low sec poco's (and in fact perhaps there should be POCO variations similar to scan probes [ie general vs. combat])
But if the intention is politicization, then NBSI rules will impact economic productivity in low sec regions. The Strategic hybrid privitization of low sec is concerning given the plan to wipe out all NPC-CO's... and I'm still wrestling with why this wasn't implemented this way from the beginning...
Talk about a shell game of planetary proportions! Now you see it, now you don't... |
Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
57
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:31:00 -
[952] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:
This idea make low sec even worse, ruins an activity a lot of Eve players enjoyed, risks messing up a lot of the Eve ecconomy and shows how little CCP actually accepts the nature of the players in its own game. The profit motive and alturistic nature that CCP expects to be present in the wasteland of low sec doesn't exist! The folks there are going to blow up anything not defended and drive the few remaining residents of low sec out (maybe entirely out of Eve).
I'd certainly consider setting up POCO structures as a means of generating an income. I think others will too.
C.
|
Sashaaa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:36:00 -
[953] - Quote
Confirming that this is a bag of crap |
Lin Fatale
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:40:00 -
[954] - Quote
I am heavily pvp oriented and doing PI Stuff to get ISK....so in know both sides.... And i realy love this POCO Idea
But I am not sure what you want to achieve with the current design. CCP Omen can you answer this question? so you would get the right feedback if it could work or not.
On PVP side with that much HP grinding and no reward. I dont think small gangs will attack these structures. Why should they do it?
Its just another structure with tons of HP. You need a blob --> usually blobs result in no fights --> after RF someone have to rep this stuff Added two boring jobs, thats not what I am looking for.
And if bigger alliances go arround and RF / kill these POCOs, they will just do it because they are bored. Then obv. something is wrong with the game design.
Why not take this Idea and add some real dynamic and small scale pvp to the game? POCO HP = 500.000 HP => can be rfed by a 10 men roaming gang in 15 min => enough time to form a counter fleet POCO Costs = 20 mil ISK => also small corps or people in lowsec can drop 10 of it in a system POCO drops everything if it dies => roaming gang get a fight or some ISK => its not the end of the world for the PI owner
POCO anchor/onlining time = 5-10 min max => no more boring things POCO cannot attacked by supercaps = always good
With Something like this the result could be that roaming gangs flying around to rf POCOs. Blocks or alliances will not form CTA fleets to safe some RFed PI stuff. So Renter or the owning corp have to defend it byself. And only if a big gang is coming the alliance helps out cuz there is maybe a fight incoming.
Small gangs have something to do. And if you have to rep a POCO you can do it with a few people and not with 10 carriers.
You have to go away from this, everything have to be super safe and lots of HP will do the trick. Current design = just another structure with tons of HP. Dont force people to bring blobs to do grind/rep something small. Add some real dynamic stuff and i think you have a chance with this POCO stuff.
|
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:44:00 -
[955] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:
This idea make low sec even worse, ruins an activity a lot of Eve players enjoyed, risks messing up a lot of the Eve ecconomy and shows how little CCP actually accepts the nature of the players in its own game. The profit motive and alturistic nature that CCP expects to be present in the wasteland of low sec doesn't exist! The folks there are going to blow up anything not defended and drive the few remaining residents of low sec out (maybe entirely out of Eve).
I'd certainly consider setting up POCO structures as a means of generating an income. I think others will too. C.
I'd like to think that there would be lots of folks like you that would give it a try. I have to say unless you have a pretty big combat fleet that can be on 23/7 in the low sec where I live your CO will be shot to bits every day. We have standing 20+ ship roaming pirate fleets as a standard part of life here and they are always looking for something to shoot. Most of the time they never even loot what they kill, they just like to 'splode' stuff.
Issler |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:45:00 -
[956] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote: So to the critics that say I am just being negative here is how you fix this idea.
1. Null sec and WH's work as planned. 2. Structures have to be "serviced" every 30 days by the owners or the shields and structure drop to 0 and be single shot popped. 3. High sec taxes can rise but only after the correct numbers have been determined after real study, not just a lazy doubling. 4. Low sec CO belong to the pirate faction dominant in the system they are in. To access them you have to work out your NPC pirate issues. 5. Rockets get a lot bigger and you are allowed to drop supplies to the planet. 6. Rocket launches and orbital deliveres happen at the launch facilities, not the command center. 7. I can hack a CO and steal whats inside in WH and Null, I can in low sec but I have to fight off an NPC pirate spawn to do it.
Do that and I think I can endorse your product or service.
Issler
Re: #4 - Consider instead that Pirate NPC-CO's go up but are attackable? And will spawn NPC Pirate Defenders (Just thinking of defense here since CONCORD won't be an option - not thinking about carebearing) --- and in FW Region's like Black Rise current NPC-CO's might be the default milita controling the system, and attacking spawns defenders?
This will allow a gradation from HSec to 0.0 (just as it is now) with out fundamentally altering the idea of POCO's nor the ability for the industrious Pirate or FW Corp from placing a POCO.... 0.0 Alliances are not needed in low sec - and precisely why they were not included in Faction Warfare in the first place imo.
Ultimately, there is a balance here, and CCP needs to take a balanced approach rather than the 'radical' changes that have thus far been discribed as 'missteps' (See CCP's recent layoff announcement)
#5 Tier 4 Advanced Commodities should be able to be taken off planet by rocket in a practical way - with a processor producing up to 2400m3 per 24 hours (if configured and feed properly -- and don't for get to burp them :P) anyone should have the practical option to access those commodities when a POCO is being camped - even if there is an associated ISK sink attached to that...
There are any number of options for exacting a price for such a practical option that does not entirely circumvent POCO's
#7 Is a no go as it would defeat the purpose of DUST 514 |
Arron Samar
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:46:00 -
[957] - Quote
Issler has it right and probably get my vote for the next CSM - Probably because I'm a lazy drunk who never sees anything through
I PI in low on two characters and normallty turn over 450m isk per month which isn't great and really isn't worth the time, effort and bit of danger flying around 0.4 and 0.3 systems. I can earn the same amount in a few hours of incursions or 30 level 4s (made up stats ) but I do it as it is something different and lets me whizz around in my Covert Crane annoying the local .
Will I set up my own floating bullseye? It's really not worth the ISK Will I defend it if attacked? It's not worth it. Will I pay someone else tax to use one belonging to them? Maybe, depends on the rate.
Maybe this is a good thing as I can finally move from my 0.5 home and explore a bit, maybe I would have given it up when Dust allowed people to attack my command centres, maybe.
Eve changes and it may change for the better but for me, this time, I think not.
Hopefully this is not set in stone as it will be -2 targets for lowsec warriors to chase and more high sec for me |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
111
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:46:00 -
[958] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Like POS's it will be unlimited - though with POS's there is a maintenance element that does not exist with POCO's
So POCO spamming will supplant the POS Spamming of old.
By "POS spamming of old", are you referring to when POS count was married to sov mechanics? I don't see your connection.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:53:00 -
[959] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Like POS's it will be unlimited - though with POS's there is a maintenance element that does not exist with POCO's
So POCO spamming will supplant the POS Spamming of old.
By "POS spamming of old", are you referring to when POS count was married to sov mechanics? I don't see your connection.
Lol I feel like I'm about to put my foot in my mouth but, yes.... it may be a loose example but I ultimately meant that there is no fixed number (at least not implied in anything written thus far). |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:53:00 -
[960] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Spanking Monkeys wrote:i cant belive this is something you have worked on for a while CCP owen. this is a badly thought out structure driven boring activity, rather than just a boring activity. started offlining pos's already cos theres no way currently to absorb the extra costs involved. glad i have 3 months worth of fuel stored for 6 towers. i now have 18months for the 1 that will stay.
i just dont see why you at ccp are always trying to **** over the smaller guys/corps/alliances. this is directly what your doing here, have no doubt about it.
This is exactly why I've continued to run for the CSM to try and make CCP consider the "little guy". The solo player, the little indy corp or alliance. Clearly someone in the CSM needs to advocating for that segement of the pilots of Eve because this is another example of how CCP just doesn't get it!
It's odd because this change has me wanting to push up my plans to start a corp to place these in out of the way locations and try to get lucky and setup on a planet that is actually used. And I'd be one person doing it for the most part. And even if I don't get a decent opportunity to place and use them at least i could probably sell a few. Who knows. But I can't be the only one who sees this as a potential solo opportunity.
|
|
Daedalus II
The Older Gamers
58
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:54:00 -
[961] - Quote
A thought about the standing lockout of the customs offices;
What if you removed the ability to set +5 and +10 standing lockouts on all customs offices that are outside your own sov space. That way you can still lock out your enemies, but you can't very well put EVERYONE in EVE on your enemies list, so customs offices would be open to most of the general public.
Once you get into your own sov space though, you'll get the ability to also lock out the general public via the +5 and +10 standing options.
Of course you can still set a very high tax on your offices to lock people out that way, but that's another question. |
Agente
Milking Interstellar Incorporated.
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:57:00 -
[962] - Quote
Reading most of the post I think there is people who undestood the taxes wrongly:
Enriched Uranium: now at 16500isk
Actual export tax: 9 isk/unit--->0.05%
Proposed High Sec tax: 18 isk/unit---->0.1% POCO at 100%:180 isk/unit------>1.1%
1. This is not going to be the problem. 2. Nobody will get rich with a POCO. 3. High Sec is going to be more profitable than anyother place once you factor the placement/replacement cost of the POCO.
So, good time for carebears, at increased prices. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
111
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:58:00 -
[963] - Quote
I can't wait to see all the whining when Dust514 finally goes live and the ability to shoot at PI installations becomes a reality too.
I'm sure it'll come as a complete surprise to people that the Eve - Dust514 link is a pvp game too. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:59:00 -
[964] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Spanking Monkeys wrote:i cant belive this is something you have worked on for a while CCP owen. this is a badly thought out structure driven boring activity, rather than just a boring activity. started offlining pos's already cos theres no way currently to absorb the extra costs involved. glad i have 3 months worth of fuel stored for 6 towers. i now have 18months for the 1 that will stay.
i just dont see why you at ccp are always trying to **** over the smaller guys/corps/alliances. this is directly what your doing here, have no doubt about it.
This is exactly why I've continued to run for the CSM to try and make CCP consider the "little guy". The solo player, the little indy corp or alliance. Clearly someone in the CSM needs to advocating for that segement of the pilots of Eve because this is another example of how CCP just doesn't get it! It's odd because this change has me wanting to push up my plans to start a corp to place these in out of the way locations and try to get lucky and setup on a planet that is actually used. And I'd be one person doing it for the most part. And even if I don't get a decent opportunity to place and use them at least i could probably sell a few. Who knows. But I can't be the only one who sees this as a potential solo opportunity.
If you try in any of the low sec I spend time in you will be throwing isks down a rat hole. The locals will pop you CO as soon as you put it up. A single person corp can't possible keep a CO alive for long in most low sec.
Issler |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:00:00 -
[965] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:I can't wait to see all the whining when Dust514 finally goes live and the ability to shoot at PI installations becomes a reality too.
I'm sure it'll come as a complete surprise to people that the Eve - Dust514 link is a pvp game too.
You made Hello Kitty cry! |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:00:00 -
[966] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:1. WH space - I don't see PI done in WH space with the intention of selling it on the market. It's used for POS fuel and manufacturing in the WH. PI goods made in WH's have no significant effect on the market. PITA to get a CO installed, but once done, business as usual, and no change to income.
I don't know what WH Space you are looking at, but nearly every C1 to C3 I fly into has active PI, they cant all be making POS fuel only for themselves.
I would wager to guess that a significant amount (20-30%) of PI comes from W-Space. I could be way off, but it is not insignificant.
|
Bodega Cat
Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:04:00 -
[967] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:
I'd like to think that there would be lots of folks like you that would give it a try. I have to say unless you have a pretty big combat fleet that can be on 23/7 in the low sec where I live your CO will be shot to bits every day. We have standing 20+ ship roaming pirate fleets as a standard part of life here and they are always looking for something to shoot. Most of the time they never even loot what they kill, they just like to 'splode' stuff.
Issler
I agree with you, thats why i think it would be best if theirs always a CO no matter what (with a static tax, or just a couple of options but no real way to block out everyone outside of null), and corps can flip it to have their sticker on it to get the tax benefit instead of it going to NPC's.
Can leave the same reinforce mechanics in, but essentially when the structure gets to 0, it fills all the way back up with the attacking corporation now having rights to the tax collector.
People with holdings on the planet don't have to worry about one day not having any access at all, at most, they might have to fear one owner imposing a bit more tight of a tax than another, thats about it. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:14:00 -
[968] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:While I do support putting more control into the players hands, I am a little sad about this change from the perspective of someone who lives in a wormhole. I hope the customs offices are either A: not too expensive, or B: fairly durable. Basically I'm envisioning people coming into occupied wormholes, blowing up customs offices, and leaving. No real interaction, just costing us money for the sake of griefing.
Also, nice touch adding the BP to the faction warfare stores. I know it isn't much, but I hope the little attention paid to the abysmal feature of FW will be appreciated. We gave this a lot of thought, and the CSM helped in significantly lowering the costs from what we had initially planned. All the materials are in the blog so you can both figure out what it will cost you, and even prepare a stash with those materials. One point to note is that the CO is still operational while in reinforcement, so unless the aggressor sticks around for the entire time you'll just rep the office back up when they are gone. If this becomes a big problem, we have solutions to mitigate it. Regards Omen
It is the same case here, I'm from a corporation that lives from WH PI, and it is a must say that, this changes can help us allot, in case these CO are not too expensive and they are durable against griefers.
Although, if possible, it would be really nice to anchor some sort of defenses around it that shots upon aggression. ( does it makes sense leaving these structures defenseless like this? not even a gun? ).
And how about each Faction having a different type o CO like are the Control tower system? Some having more capacity, others having more defense/offense...
And how about more levels of upgrade? to increase capacity/defense? or different fitting systems for it?
If you guys makes it customizable, it would be easier for players to fit them on every situation.
|
Agente
Milking Interstellar Incorporated.
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:24:00 -
[969] - Quote
Another batch of numbers.
Critical factor to build a POCO:
I am alone in a plasma planet, producing Enriched uranium: Actual price 16500isk/unit
Maximum yield: 360 units/day=6M ROI of the POCO: 17 days
Is the POCO to survive less than 17 days?---> FORGET Is the POCO to survive between 17 and 34 days?--->Depends of how bored you are. Is the POCO to survive more than 34 days?---> Great, i get the same that with PI 2.0 but with more risk.
Answer with 90% prob: buy the POS fuel in Jita.
|
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:25:00 -
[970] - Quote
Lin Fatale wrote:
Why not take this Idea and add some real dynamic and small scale pvp to the game? POCO HP = 500.000 HP => can be rfed by a 10 men roaming gang in 15 min => enough time to form a counter fleet POCO Costs = 20 mil ISK => also small corps or people in lowsec can drop 10 of it in a system POCO drops everything if it dies => roaming gang get a fight or some ISK => its not the end of the world for the PI owner
I put up a POCO for 20 mil ISK. As the owner of the POCO, what am I risking by loosing the POCO other than the POCO's cost itself? The PI materials? They aren't mine, I don't care.
If I form a counter fleet and land on the 10 man roaming fleet attacking my POCO, and I loose 1 ship and sustain a loss of over 20 mil ISK from the battle, I would have been better to not defend the POCO at all and just put up a new one.
If the 10 man gang puts it in RF mode, I come in to rep it. I am risking a ship, probably worth atleast 20 mil, to repair something less expensive then my ship I am flying. Again, let em blow it up, why risk a ship more expensive than what it's repairing?
The owner of the PI materials in the POCO presumably would not get an notification that a POCO with my stuff is being attacked. If they did, why would they bother to defend it? It's not my POCO. If loosing my stuff in a POCO happened often enough, I keep my materials on the launch pad and only move it to the POCO when I come in system to pick it up. So the roaming gang really wouldnt get ISK, since PI owners wouldn't keep their stuff in a POCO.
If we go the other way, and make a POCO very expensive and therefore worth defending, the payback time on the investment goes way up as well. Raising taxes to a point that the payback time is reasonable, raises the cost of Pi to unreasonable rates, and makes it worthwhile to avoid the POCO and just launch stuff into space avoiding the taxes entirely.
I agree with what this idea is trying to achieve. I simply do not see a way to make it feasible in the game. |
|
amarr alt2
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:43:00 -
[971] - Quote
Hey CCP, Remember this ? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672
Thats right, the one about CCP CEO apologising to the EVE player base for rushed expansions/features that no-one wants/nerfs that suit the few and not those that actually use the ****, without listening to the player base. ..
Just because he didn't mention PI, doesn't mean you have to **** that up too ! |
Par'Gellen
Neon Cranium
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:55:00 -
[972] - Quote
amarr alt2 wrote:Hey CCP, Remember this ? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672Thats right, the one about CCP CEO apologising to the EVE player base for rushed expansions/features that no-one wants/nerfs that suit the few and not those that actually use the ****, without listening to the player base. .. Just because he didn't mention PI, doesn't mean you have to **** that up too ! This! |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 21:10:00 -
[973] - Quote
The only way I see this working.....
1. Keep all CO's not in high sec non destructible as they are now.
2. However, you can attack them as originally put forth in the blog... attack it, put into RF mode, come back in 24 hours and "destroy it". When you "destroy" it, you are really gaining ownership of it, not really destroying it.
3. You then can set taxes as you wish. Too high and people either move to another planet or just use launches to avoid your taxes. Too low and you get swamped with people trying to save money on taxes, but resources on the planet are depleted very quickly, hurting everyone's income.
4. No matter what state the CO is in, you can go up to it and get resources out of it, and risk getting your ass blown off too.
5. Maybe make it so that you can't lock out people in low sec with standings, but you can in WH and null sec? I don't know, would want feedback from people before deciding on this definitively if I were CCP.
6. The tariff's would work the same as planned in the blog.
7. CO's would stay in NPC ownership until attacked and "destroyed".
You get the original intent of getting income via planetary taxation, and also the increased player-to-player interaction.
You avoid the problems of trying to get a return on investment of a destructible structure. The CO's become somewhat worthwhile to defend since you would loose whatever income it generated. They would become somewhat worthwhile to attack to gain the income from the CO.
The effect on the overall economy is much much easier to understand and predict, and certainly not as dramatic.
It avoids the vacuum of CO's just after implementation as originally planned.
The only problem I see is that the 10-20 mill ISK income per month... isn't really worth fighting much over. |
Marie Celeste Engelenhart
Amarr War Industries Empire Industry
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 21:11:00 -
[974] - Quote
amarr alt2 wrote:Hey CCP, Remember this ? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672Thats right, the one about CCP CEO apologising to the EVE player base for rushed expansions/features that no-one wants/nerfs that suit the few and not those that actually use the ****, without listening to the player base. .. Just because he didn't mention PI, doesn't mean you have to **** that up too !
This indeed. Also CCP, please consider the fact that you give the ++berblobs the tools to completely sever the link between EVE and Dust514. Why would I hire PS3-players to defend my PI when the bottleneck is clearly the vulnerability of of my POCO. (Worst acronym ever btw.) Do you really want cluster****whatever make Dust obsolete just because you foolishly thought it would be to big a task to complete? You underestimate the lulz in griefing. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 21:18:00 -
[975] - Quote
Team PI, how many of you actually play the game on a regular basis and interact with the PI/Industrial markets?
If none on your team can raise their hand then this is doomed to be one big clusterf*ck. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
draketrain
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 21:21:00 -
[976] - Quote
great news
i just hope hi sec PI will be balanced in a way it's also still lucrative business in low sec
also i don't like idea of bpc's being FW only. how about also low sec mission agents or storyline missions?
|
Shadow51585
Legio Geminatus Gentlemen's Agreement
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 21:37:00 -
[977] - Quote
Low-sec should remain under NPC control. The offices there shouldn't be able to be destroyed or fought over.
I can understand wanting to give low-sec dwellers something to fight over, but this doesn't seem like a god place to do that. After all, it is technically empire space.
To be frank, this seems like one more thing as a whole that just doesn't need to be changed. I do PI in null-sec, and my alliance holds space there, so my planets will likely be fine... but we don't DO this faction warfare stuff. How are we supposed to get the BP's without paying some stupid high price?
Come on... make the blueprints for this available from more then just one place.... |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
102
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:05:00 -
[978] - Quote
DECISION TREE
There needs to be a decision tree for these POCO's that's greater than simply "Attack" and then come back in x hours and "Defend".
Do this :
The attacker, if he wants to take the POCO is required to deploy a "Administrative Task Force Shuttle" (I'm having fun here) - that's full of politicians that infiltrate and make the POCO vulnerable to attack. More realistically, some kind of "Planetary Blockade Unit".
It takes 30 minutes from that moment of deploying the Unit for the POCO to become vulnerable to Phase 1 attack. This 30 minute buffer alerts the defenders and allows them to scramble a quick force to defend the POCO, and also forces the attackers to do more than "Drive by" attacks on multiple planets. They have to WANT the POCO down.
Once the POCO is vulnerable to the first attack, it can get taken down to 25% shields and reinforced for the timer the next day. This way the DEFENDERS have a decision and an option to scramble and defend their POCO's, and it forces the attackers to bring assets and an INTENT to "disturb" the Customs offices. There is absolutely no reason that "Pirates" won't just bash POCO's for fun on a boring afternoon. Forcing the attacker to deploy assets and waiting for the time limit to expire limits how much can be "disturbed".
My biggest concern is random Pirates bashing POCO's for fun, getting all the defenders to come defend the next day and not care to show up even - but "Griefing" and "crying wolf" repeatedly just because they can. NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:06:00 -
[979] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: the tax thing is quite complex, (to my own surprise when I took it on) but whenever you do percent, there has to be a value at the bottom to modify with the percent. In the "real" world, customs are paid as actual money for any given commodity. Like for instance, 1kg Banana costs 1 USD or whatever. This is the tariff. This cost, is set by CCP on every single item that can flow to/from planets and the owner of the customs office modifies how much of that value he wants. This value existed before this change as well, and was precisely what you paid for import and export. We have increased it significantly but in turn, the default value is 5% which is the same as before =)
Hope that makes any sense!
Regards Omen
Not really complex at all.
It would probably be conceptually a simpler idea to charge not an isk fee but a % of goods transferred instead, with the owner of the station having a special corp hangar (maybe bigger than average) where the goods are stored.
This also has a couple of other advantages such as making it so that the value of the structure increases over time up to the point where the owner drops in and empties the "taxes".
Not only is the idea of charging a different tax rate for different security settings a good idea - it would also be very useful to have separate tax rates on the import and export of materials.
Differentiating between the import and export of materials is important because it means that you could allow extraction from a planet, (to a certain sec class) but in essence prohibit turning it into a factory planet (by setting a very high import tax) I could see a corp setting up a small cartel over some of the more valuable PI space doing this.
However this is going to greatly skew PI - WH PI is going to get a massive boost (because PI in a WH is fairly well protected) whereas PI in NPC nullsec is going down the drain.
Final question - why just one customs office if I might ask? I could see the use and value of having these in different sizes too, or having some of the nullsec factions (Syndicate comes to mind, their LP store is not very interesting) provide for some interesting flavours of customs offices.
Anyhow... interesting but it does royally mess up all of my PI right now. |
Solo Player
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:08:00 -
[980] - Quote
NPC (and other) sov holders letting you tariff their planets at no costs? Are you mad? Or are you planning to cut your utterly neglected backstory altogether anyway in order to include even more game-y feature into your "space simulation" sandbox?
And damn your buggy new forum - I just typed in half an hour of brilliant ideas on how to improve this and when I finally hit "post" it just refreshed the page to the original (empty) state. RAGE!
Also, listen to Issler, she's got it righter than you. Except standings to the sov holder should be relevant, not the local pirate faction. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:14:00 -
[981] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:NPC (and other) sov holders letting you tariff their planets at no costs? Are you mad? Or are you planning to cut your utterly neglected backstory altogether anyway in order to include even more game-y feature into your "space simulation" sandbox?
And damn your buggy new forum - I just typed in half an hour of brilliant ideas on how to improve this and when I finally hit "post" it just refreshed the page to the original (empty) state. RAGE!
Also, listen to Issler, she's got it righter than you. Except standings to the sov holder should be relevant, not the local pirate faction.
You are setting tariffs on the goods which pass through the POCO, which excludes rocket launches. Since at that point you would own the POCO, why would you not be able to charge for it's use? |
Monger Man
D.S.A.
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:20:00 -
[982] - Quote
Bilaz wrote:Let me remind you one of devblogs written not so long ago: fom here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2351Quote:Lessons learned 1) Shooting at stationary structures is boring See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives. Shooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior 2) Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example 3) Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool 4) Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road 5) Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think See: outposts, titans, supercarriers 6) Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it See: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort. 7) People like to do one-stop shopping, and will "go to Jita" for everything unless doing so is comparatively very inconvenient See: moon mineral distribution, high-strength booster resource distribution, neither of which achieved much in the way of the nullsec-to-nullsec trade that they hoped to encourage now to your new customs office 1) check. Its sure stationary and we kinda expected to shoot it 2) check. it surely wont fight back 3) check. Yeah - at night someone reinforced it and you HAVE to rep it up 4) check. We dont really need it, now do we? 5) check. It cost much more than most people get from pi and taxes are going up 6) check. We have to get bpc, build one thing, haul it, then do something with it again - with no reasoning behind it so you repeat 6 out of 7 mistakes you folks supposedly learned? Good job as always.
I have to say I cant disagree with this. At first I read the blog and smiled. Thinking of all the possibilities in lowsec. But then realized why I haven't bothered with a pos, defense, fueling, tedious, and for what? So I can research blue prints? Or haul crap in and out? I have 4 planets in lowsec right now. I spend little time on them, the hauling is just boring as hell. Most likely I'll wont be doing it at all with this change. |
Solo Player
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:34:00 -
[983] - Quote
Ok. I'll try once more. Forum better not eat it this time.
problem: your proposition for POCOs just adds another largely seperate minigame to the EVE that is easily exploited and doesn't make sense in the gameworld you have
goal: mesh this new feature with what you already have in away that makes sense and offers interesting new gameplay
solution (for low sec and npc nullsec): - require minimum standings towards system sov holder in order to apply for the privilege of tariffing a planet - players apply for a "letter of privilege" to tariff a planet for a set amount of time (one month?) as a corp at the planet's regular customs office. - applying corps will offer a certain share of claimed tariffs to the sov holder - letter of privilege for the next time period will go to the highest offer (modified by the corp's standings) at the time the current letter runs out. - if the current holder isn't successful, their POCO will unanchor at that time. - the letter of privilege further costs a basic fee dependent on system sec to be deposited upon application. - corps/alliances may shoot and disable war targets' POCOs - shooting/disabling (griefing) of non-war target POCOs is possible, at the risk of a system sec-dependent Concord reaction. - when no operational POCO is in orbit, a sov-holder operated conventional customs office is open for business at high sec conditions. - possibly further allow shooting/disabling of sov holder npc customs office at increased risk of Concord reaction. import/export would then be limited to direct launches until said customs office auto-regenerates after a while.
advice: a sandbox balances itself if factors are sufficiently interdependent. don't listen to whiners fearing the need to adapt their strategies. players will adapt as long as it includes some measure of fun. |
Kar DeMerchant
Trinova DeepOps Trinova
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:38:00 -
[984] - Quote
First, I would like to thank the devs for giving large alliances one more way to drive small alliances into the ground.
On the other hand, so long as we small alliances can still ninja any planet regardless of sec status or sov holder it might not be so bad.
I am getting very tired of CCP making decisions based on what makes sense for PL and the other mega alliances and neglecting the little guy.
|
Solo Player
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:58:00 -
[985] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: You are setting tariffs on the goods which pass through the POCO, which excludes rocket launches. Since at that point you would own the POCO, why would you not be able to charge for it's use?
Because the sov holders' services of policing the system and providing infrastructure is usually provided at the cost/incentive of taxing and tariffing those services' beneficiaries. If they subcontracted their privilege to someone else, they'd be sure to get something out of it, wouldn't they? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 23:10:00 -
[986] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: You are setting tariffs on the goods which pass through the POCO, which excludes rocket launches. Since at that point you would own the POCO, why would you not be able to charge for it's use?
Because the sov holders' services of policing the system and providing infrastructure is usually provided at the cost/incentive of taxing and tariffing those services' beneficiaries. If they subcontracted their privilege to someone else, they'd be sure to get something out of it, wouldn't they?
I'm not sure where any policing can been seen or benefit us. As far as the infrastructure, the colonies and soon the POCO will be player owned. There will be no NPC involvement. What you are proposing is a considerably different system. CCP is proposing that that the role once filled by NPC structures be done away with and totally replaced by structures built and operated by us. What you propose is more like subcontracting the existing resources instead of buying/replacing them, in which case, yes, paying the NPC sov holders would make sense. |
Battelle
No Option Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 23:22:00 -
[987] - Quote
I waited a while before responding to this to see how the posts went. It's good to see that some folks are actually thinking about the ramifications of this finally. Congrats to Bilaz and his post. I suspect this will probably be the death of PI for the average player but maybe that's what CCP wants if you think about it. |
Solo Player
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 23:33:00 -
[988] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: I'm not sure where any policing can been seen or benefit us. As far as the infrastructure, the colonies and soon the POCO will be player owned. There will be no NPC involvement. What you are proposing is a considerably different system. CCP is proposing that that the role once filled by NPC structures be done away with and totally replaced by structures built and operated by us. What you propose is more like subcontracting the existing resources instead of buying/replacing them, in which case, yes, paying the NPC sov holders would make sense.
Granted, but I don't see CCP handing players the reins to the universe at all, actually. New technology, background plots, missions, stargates etc. are still fast in their hands.
Neither do I see the empires do that - they are fighting over worthless space such as Black Rise, why should they just give it to us pretentious/thankless bunch? And they do provide services such as Concord (an empire joint venture), free (why?) stargate transport and probably others.
If it was otherwise, what sense in leaving them sov in low-sec? Why have low-sec at all? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 23:35:00 -
[989] - Quote
Battelle wrote:I waited a while before responding to this to see how the posts went. It's good to see that some folks are actually thinking about the ramifications of this finally. Congrats to Bilaz and his post. I suspect this will probably be the death of PI for the average player but maybe that's what CCP wants if you think about it.
The only aspect of this that seems bad globally would be the ability to lock people out based on standings. All other aspects have the same capacity to be self regulating that everything else has. If you want to operate a POCO but not do PI, you don't limit access, you set taxes low and leave it open to anyone. In lowsec this encourages traffic from ninja PI but may ward it away as well due to real time updates letting you know people locations.
I would make a few potential changes though:
1 Seed the BPC's about 1 week prior to removing the CO's to prevent shortages while they are built/deployed 2 Remove standings. I'm sort of torn on this one. It seems bad in my head but I can see that making open ones more lucrative at the same time 3 Instead of having a percentage of a set value per item, charge a fixed amount per cubic meter 4 Don't give wallet ticks in real time and don't identify the specific POCO that was paid. This reduces the POCO's capabilities as a gank tool.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 23:43:00 -
[990] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: I'm not sure where any policing can been seen or benefit us. As far as the infrastructure, the colonies and soon the POCO will be player owned. There will be no NPC involvement. What you are proposing is a considerably different system. CCP is proposing that that the role once filled by NPC structures be done away with and totally replaced by structures built and operated by us. What you propose is more like subcontracting the existing resources instead of buying/replacing them, in which case, yes, paying the NPC sov holders would make sense.
Granted, but I don't see CCP handing players the reins to the universe at all, actually. New technology, background plots, missions, stargates etc. are still fast in their hands. Neither do I see the empires do that - they are fighting over worthless space such as Black Rise, why should they just give it to us pretentious/thankless bunch? And they do provide services such as Concord (an empire joint venture), free (why?) stargate transport and probably others. If it was otherwise, what sense in leaving them sov in low-sec? Why have low-sec at all?
If we must broach lore/RP I choose to look at it like a strategic business decision on the part of Concord/the empires. The risks of opperating in low null are too great to likely be able to return a sustainable profit so they scrap the entire low/null/WH(and how did they even operate there?) and let someone else take a stab at it if they so choose. As far as Concord/Empire funding: sales taxes, LP stores, Sov fees(again how?), Highsec POCO taxes, NPC corp taxes and whatever else (+lore elements like economic activity on occupied worlds) and other should be able to keep them afloat I guess. |
|
Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 23:59:00 -
[991] - Quote
As a percentage, how much more material is on a low sec planet compared to a high sec planet?
I'm just thinking that if a low sec planet has a 50% better yield than a high sec planet but the this new system restricts high sec tax to 10% max, would it be feasible to set low sec tax to anything above 15%?
I get the impression that people think that the risk of doing PI in low sec does not outweigh the benefit, so perhaps for this to work, low sec pi would need to be buffed significantly to bring it closer inline with that of WH space and PI in null sec should be nerfed to prevent massive alliances from gaining a monopoly over the system... |
Solo Player
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 00:02:00 -
[992] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: If we must broach lore/RP I choose to look at it like a strategic business decision on the part of Concord/the empires. The risks of operating in low/null are too great to likely be able to return a sustainable profit so they scrap the entire low/null/WH(and how did they even operate there?) and let someone else take a stab at it if they so choose. As far as Concord/Empire funding: sales taxes, LP stores, Sov fees(again how?), Highsec POCO taxes, NPC corp taxes and whatever else (+lore elements like economic activity on occupied worlds) and other should be able to keep them afloat I guess.
Not extremely plausible, now, is it? Coherence is not something that can just be bent any way you happen to please. If there are other areas where our credulity is hard pressed (oh, and how it is!), those are faults that deserve consideration when you are getting there. Planetary customs are reviewed, and I don't see why plausibility shouldn't be addressed.
Aside from that, my proposals do not reduce the amount of player control - they rather interweave CCP's proposed new functionality more tightly with other existent features. It seems preferrable to have fewer highly interconnected systems than more independent minigames. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 00:18:00 -
[993] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: If we must broach lore/RP I choose to look at it like a strategic business decision on the part of Concord/the empires. The risks of operating in low/null are too great to likely be able to return a sustainable profit so they scrap the entire low/null/WH(and how did they even operate there?) and let someone else take a stab at it if they so choose. As far as Concord/Empire funding: sales taxes, LP stores, Sov fees(again how?), Highsec POCO taxes, NPC corp taxes and whatever else (+lore elements like economic activity on occupied worlds) and other should be able to keep them afloat I guess.
Not extremely plausible, now, is it? Coherence is not something that can just be bent any way you happen to please. If there are other areas where our credulity is hard pressed (oh, and how it is!), those are faults that deserve consideration when you are getting there. Planetary customs are reviewed, and I don't see why plausibility shouldn't be addressed. Aside from that, my proposals do not reduce the amount of player control - they rather interweave CCP's proposed new functionality more tightly with other existent features. It seems preferrable to have fewer highly interconnected systems than more independent minigames.
Agreed on the lore part, but personally I prefer that this take a back seat to playability and enjoyment, not to say that there are no concerns there as well. Anything that adds to the already tedious requirements for various tasks in game is bad which makes me support not tying this to standings or complicating the process of placing or gaining control of one. And while making them another structure grind makes it harder for them to change hands, especially to smaller groups or solo players, it also to some extent deters griefing by making people invest time to destroy a somewhat small investment, making it possible that some people just won't bother and allowing smaller groups to retain what holdings they are able to take.
Also there is a bit of tie in to the rest of the game through how the BPC's are obtained and the units are built/sold as well as how the affect PI product import/export which due to POS fuel alone ties this in abit too well maybe to the rest of the game. |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 00:21:00 -
[994] - Quote
On the surface, this is a wonderful idea.
But as usual, the players have mearly scratched the surface and revealed all the problems and knock-on effects that CCP hasn't thought of and will point-by-point ignore for the final release.
My major issue, while I really like the concept, the cost is simple going to be crazy. Currently I use 10 planets across two toons, and I'm looking at in excess of 1 bil. build costs.
That is simply too much, especially since the next blob can roll through and blow them all up.
What exactly is the point of building them anyways? They are already there around just about every planet, all we need is a mechanism in order for us to take control of them.
For the cost that is being projected, they need a hell of alot more then just being able to set tax (which will be zero along alliance lines.) At the very least they will need to be able to route goods between planets automatically, with the CC having a hell of alot more grid and CPU. I am a Pod Pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1109/Hostile-Takeover-by-Marek-Okon[1].jpg
|
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound.
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 00:22:00 -
[995] - Quote
snip I am a Pod Pilot:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1109/Hostile-Takeover-by-Marek-Okon[1].jpg
|
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 00:49:00 -
[996] - Quote
After reading 50 pages I have to agree that this will not work like intended in low sec.
For 0.0 or wormholes, its fine, deploy (with some minor improvements -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=209267#post209267) but for low sec don't deploy this.
---> keep the custom offices there, invulnerable to attacks and RENT them instead, like you rent offices in stations!
In every station in a system in low sec, add a button next to the rent office called rent custom office. When we press it open a list with all the C. offices that the system has, show information about planet type, how many command centers the planet has, how many ISK will cost to rent the C. Office for 30 days and also show the corp name if any is rented already.
That is it, the rent works like the offices in station, you put it in auto payment, you can cancel payment when you like.
The office belongs to Concord so standings to access it should be according with the standings each user has for Concord. The only thing the renter can change is the C. Office taxes.
To help people to accept this new changes, all c.offices are deactivated until rented.
Also define renting prices based on planet types, the rare ones should be more expensive. Give discounts for corps that have good standings with Concord,
PS: for systems in low sec with no station that we can dock to rent the c. offices I'm out of ideas, but is a small problem and it needs to be solved for this to work properly in all low sec systems.
Some ideas for the future- > Lets assume renting is a success and c.offices aren't available for renting ->>>>>Renting can be done by auction!
- Each office has minimum starting bid and a huge buyout price, the auction time is of 1 day - The auction starts after the first bid is made. - Anyone with a command center in the planet where the office is, receives a email with the warning of the auction start - After 24 hours the winner, rents the office for 30 days - at any moment of the 24 hours anybody can buyout the rent - all proposals but the first are secret - everybody receives mails that a corp x made a bid - you can only bid once every hour
and that is it, the winner takes the rent, the others receive their money back and a email with the winner name and the ISK it pay for the 30 day rent.
- when the rent ends, if the user has the automatic pay setting for c.offices, the auction starts automatically with the minimum bid and we start the auction process all over again....
Other cool ideas, since you are iterating over PI:
1 - Why not instead of give x5 bonus to links, create a book to train (level 1) that gives that? we really need objectives and more stuff to train in this game, you have a opportunity here use it!
2 - Why not gives us even more books to train that improve PI, like: - A book that reduces in 5% each level the power consumption of extractor heads - A book that reduces in 3-5% each level the CPU consumption of PI structures - A book that reduces in 3-5% each level the power consumption of PI structures - A book that improves heads yield in 2% each level per hour - A book that improves production cycles of factories 1 minute per level
GIVE US COOKIES |
Solo Player
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 00:50:00 -
[997] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:As a percentage, how much more material is on a low sec planet compared to a high sec planet?
I'm just thinking that if a low sec planet has a 50% better yield than a high sec planet but the this new system restricts high sec tax to 10% max, would it be feasible to set low sec tax to anything above 15%?
I get the impression that people think that the risk of doing PI in low sec does not outweigh the benefit, so perhaps for this to work, low sec pi would need to be buffed significantly to bring it closer inline with that of WH space and PI in null sec should be nerfed to prevent massive alliances from gaining a monopoly over the system...
let's see: high sec profits * 1.5 (50% increase) * 0.85 (detract 15% tariffs) / (0.90 (high sec profits - high sec tariffs) equals about 1.4, so there's easily 40% more profit in low sec at the taxes you suggest. even upping those taxes to 40% would still give you profits on a level to high sec. Of course, this does not calculate the difference in risk. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 01:10:00 -
[998] - Quote
amarr alt2 wrote:Hey CCP, Remember this ? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672Thats right, the one about CCP CEO apologising to the EVE player base for rushed expansions/features that no-one wants/nerfs that suit the few and not those that actually use the ****, without listening to the player base. .. Just because he didn't mention PI, doesn't mean you have to **** that up too !
Dang watch where you're waving that.... you're gonna hurt someone with that clearly sharp and pointedly truthful object! |
Solo Player
103
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 01:14:00 -
[999] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Agreed on the lore part, but personally I prefer that this take a back seat to playability and enjoyment, not to say that there are no concerns there as well. Anything that adds to the already tedious requirements for various tasks in game is bad which makes me support not tying this to standings or complicating the process of placing or gaining control of one. And while making them another structure grind makes it harder for them to change hands, especially to smaller groups or solo players, it also to some extent deters griefing by making people invest time to destroy a somewhat small investment, making it possible that some people just won't bother and allowing smaller groups to retain what holdings they are able to take.
Also there is a bit of tie in to the rest of the game through how the BPC's are obtained and the units are built/sold as well as how the affect PI product import/export which due to POS fuel alone ties this in abit too well maybe to the rest of the game.
Fair enough, though I must admit that it has been a long time since I actually, really enjoyed the playability of EVE (though I am clearly still fascinated and intrigued). Frankly I don't see POCOs change that anytime soon. In fact, it just sounds like more work. IF I play EVE with the goal of "winning", that is, of finding optimal strategies and optimizing every interaction. And making the sandbox even more complex, intertwining even more systems would indeed make it even more work.
That is why I believe they should do exactly that. People too often still think of this as a game instead of a sandbox, a simulation. They try to game its systems and complain (loudly) if it's made more difficult for them. If you were to increase the complexity even more, gaming the system starts to become impossible. Players would have to act more situational in a system that they cannot completely overview, let alone control. And I believe, relieved of the need to control everything, to optimize, to "win", players would actually find fun again in their time in EVE. They'd find themselves more often in unsual, exciting, emergent situations instead of repeating the same routine all over again. They'd live the life of a starship captain instead of moving a spaceship from a to b and pressing buttons, working spreadsheets and smacking their way out of boredom in between,
Of course, I realize, this is not necessarily CCP's vision, and neither the majority of players', and EVE is certainly not currently moving in that direction, but it is a possibility, and that is what EVE is all about for me: Possibility. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 01:19:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:After reading 50 pages I have to agree that this will not work like intended in low sec. For 0.0 or wormholes, its fine, deploy (with some minor improvements -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=209267#post209267) but for low sec don't deploy this. ---> keep the custom offices there, invulnerable to attacks and RENT them instead, like you rent offices in stations! In every station in a system in low sec, add a button next to the rent office called rent custom office. When we press it open a list with all the C. offices that the system has, show information about planet type, how many command centers the planet has, how many ISK will cost to rent the C. Office for 30 days and also show the corp name if any is rented already. That is it, the rent works like the offices in station, you put it in auto payment, you can cancel payment when you like. The office belongs to Concord so standings to access it should be according with the standings each user has for Concord. The only thing the renter can change is the C. Office taxes. To help people to accept this new changes, all c.offices are deactivated until rented. Also define renting prices based on planet types, the rare ones should be more expensive. Give discounts for corps that have good standings with Concord, PS: for systems in low sec with no station that we can dock to rent the c. offices I'm out of ideas, but is a small problem and it needs to be solved for this to work properly in all low sec systems.
Some ideas for the future- > Lets assume renting is a success and c.offices aren't available for renting ->>>>>Renting can be done by auction! - Each office has minimum starting bid and a huge buyout price, the auction time is of 1 day - The auction starts after the first bid is made. - Anyone with a command center in the planet where the office is, receives a email with the warning of the auction start - After 24 hours the winner, rents the office for 30 days - at any moment of the 24 hours anybody can buyout the rent - all proposals but the first are secret - everybody receives mails that a corp x made a bid - you can only bid once every hour and that is it, the winner takes the rent, the others receive their money back and a email with the winner name and the ISK it pay for the 30 day rent. - when the rent ends, if the user has the automatic pay setting for c.offices, the auction starts automatically with the minimum bid and we start the auction process all over again....
Other cool ideas, since you are iterating over PI: 1 - Why not instead of give x5 bonus to links, create a book to train (level 1) that gives that? we really need objectives and more stuff to train in this game, you have a opportunity here use it! 2 - Why not gives us even more books to train that improve PI, like: - A book that reduces in 5% each level the power consumption of extractor heads - A book that reduces in 3-5% each level the CPU consumption of PI structures - A book that reduces in 3-5% each level the power consumption of PI structures - A book that improves heads yield in 2% each level per hour - A book that improves production cycles of factories 1 minute per level GIVE US COOKIES
Why not just make them like Outposts in the way that in low sec POCO's aren't destructible but can be reinforced, and through a specified mechanic, ownership can change after contestation and then being held for the appropriate time - if not and the defenders successfully drive off the challengers, then it stays with the current occupant.
Standings would still be set by CONCORD as you mention, but the political conflict element is retained. Rent being charged or not is irrelevant as it is not intended to be an ISK sink for the Corporate occupant.
Corporation is free to set tarif rates as they see fit, but universal access remains.
Something to consider for sure in regards to low sec
+1 |
|
TheDoctorUK
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 01:46:00 -
[1001] - Quote
-1 CCP No No No
Reason : More staff losses with in turn less subs - soon(tm) |
Taarna Tarakian
GV Dark Roast Ground Coffee
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 02:05:00 -
[1002] - Quote
One small suggestion as long as you are looking at PI. Could you change the color of the extractor heads? Light white/light pulseing blue on a white background is not very contrasted, making it hard to place the heads or keep them from overlapping. You do want to place your extractors on the highest P1 concentration showing up as White, Right?
Not whineing, this is just tough on my old eyes.
Thank You in advance |
Axure Abbacus
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 02:28:00 -
[1003] - Quote
If player corporations run these customs offices, it would be good to see a corporate hanger feature with these structures. Otherwise, why bother with the expense. |
Lolmer
Yahoo Inc Caffeine Nicotine and Hate
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 02:30:00 -
[1004] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:GoneMissing wrote:Whoa whoa WHOA!! > Customs Offices in all Low Sec, 0.0 and Wormhole systems will be decommissioned and removed. I will need a much clearer explanation of the mechanics here. Those of us who currently DO have PI colonies running in non-empire spaces have already invested capital and logistical efforts in getting those colonies running under the previous rules with launchpads and Command Center logistical/behavioral rules already established. ONE of those rules is that the Command Centers merely must exist - they did *NOT* necessarily need to be a part of the installed communications links between the other facilities and launchpads in order to operate a colony and to import/export materials. If all the existing Customs Offices are summarily removed, and we don't have either replacement Corporate Customs Offices _nor_ the availability of blueprints or the other materials to construct them readily available (say in wspace) to quickly replace them, then quite simply WE WILL GET SCREWED BY THIS CHANGE when the existing Customs Offices go *poof* and our launchpads have nothing to "communicate with"! It will take us quite a bit of extra TIME AND CAPITAL and LOGISTICAL EFFORT in-game to regain our current functionality (not to mention the LOST INCOME)! I cry FOUL!! Within a few minutes after the patch goes live you will see BPC's for the gantry available in every major market. Shortly after that, the Gantry's will be available on the market for purchase. You may need to launch rockets for a while until you get set up again, which will be tedious. You will need to shell out ISK for the BPC or Gantry (if you don't have loyalty points to spend), and for the materials to build/upgrade it to a PCO. After your initial investment you will be making 5% more than you currently are, 10% more than anyone in Empire will be able to thereafter. It will take a little while to start pulling ahead in the game, but then your profits increase. Pro's and Con's.
I am unsure if this has already been pointed out as it is difficult to keep up with this thread, but GoneMissing's point was about not having any means to get his goo off the planet as his Command Center is not connected to anything and he cannot use the rockets until he, or someone else, puts up a POCO, which may not be in a timely manner for his PI (depending how he has it setup). |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
143
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 02:53:00 -
[1005] - Quote
BTW, many FW players will be severely disappointed if this turns into the FW occupancy mechanic.... FYI. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
123
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 03:18:00 -
[1006] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:BTW, many FW players will be severely disappointed if this turns into the FW occupancy mechanic.... FYI.
Ha mabye this was the change to FW , bring people in by requiring them to need concord LP |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 03:24:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:X Gallentius wrote:BTW, many FW players will be severely disappointed if this turns into the FW occupancy mechanic.... FYI. Ha mabye this was the change to FW , bring people in by requiring them to need concord LP
FW gives Concord LP? Also I don't see it stated or insinuated this had anything to do with FW occupancy |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 03:56:00 -
[1008] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:BTW, many FW players will be severely disappointed if this turns into the FW occupancy mechanic.... FYI.
... IF?
Prepare to be disappointed.... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 03:57:00 -
[1009] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Buruk Utama wrote:X Gallentius wrote:BTW, many FW players will be severely disappointed if this turns into the FW occupancy mechanic.... FYI. Ha mabye this was the change to FW , bring people in by requiring them to need concord LP FW gives Concord LP? Also I don't see it stated or insinuated this had anything to do with FW occupancy
No FW does not give Concord LP - each militia will have a BPC in inventory for purchase with their LP at 50% of what CONCORD will be charging....
Disappointed yet? |
Silence iKillYouu
The Innocent Criminals Late Night Alliance
142
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 04:00:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Awesome idea Should bring GF's to lolsec http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
99
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 04:14:00 -
[1011] - Quote
edit nevermind. |
HomeSpun
CyberDyne industrial Agency G Spot Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 04:15:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Why are you taking PI out of the control of the players and placing it in the hands of the corporation?
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 04:27:00 -
[1013] - Quote
This is not going to work well for lo-sec and NPC null-sec. The biggest issue is going to be that you spend 6-12M ISK setting up a PI planet, only to have the POCO owner turn around and deny you access the next day. The problem is not that they can deny you access (that's a good mechanic), the problem is that they can do so on a whim of the moment (such as when you enter the system to attempt to pickup your product).
The solution to that might be that if you change standings access or tax rates that it takes 7 or 14 days before that new access mask / tax rate goes into effect. And when it is changed by the owner, then a notification needs to be sent to every player that has a command center on that planet. That will give people time to evacuate their products and seek out a better landlord.
(I say 7 days as the minimum, because for most PI planets, that's about the time it takes for a P1 harvest planet to pay for itself. But it could be as little as 72h. Lower then that and I think it puts too much power in the hands of the landlord.) |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1027
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 05:18:00 -
[1014] - Quote
I wonder what the impact would be if one of the planet-side structures we get to build when the DUST/EVE link comes live would be a shield generator? The purpose of the shield generator would be to rep shields of the CO at a rate equivalent to 100% every minute, with higher level shield generators simply rendering the beanstalk immune to damage.
You know, so you have to hire Dust Bunnies to go and land on the planet to shut down the shield generator? And they have to do so at the time that your fleet arrives to engage the fully operational deatGÇö sorry, customs office.
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
214
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 05:47:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:I wonder what the impact would be if one of the planet-side structures we get to build when the DUST/EVE link comes live would be a shield generator? The purpose of the shield generator would be to rep shields of the CO at a rate equivalent to 100% every minute, with higher level shield generators simply rendering the beanstalk immune to damage.
You know, so you have to hire Dust Bunnies to go and land on the planet to shut down the shield generator? And they have to do so at the time that your fleet arrives to engage the fully operational deatGÇö sorry, customs office.
I like |
Toshiro GreyHawk
166
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 06:57:00 -
[1016] - Quote
OK ... can't be arsed to read 51 pages ... so here's my two cents.
First off - a few concepts you don't seem to have a good handle on ...
1) As in the real world - it is far easier to blow something up - than it is to build it. For this reason - industrialists are MOSTLY cautious with their investments. Why sink your money into something some bunch of terrorists, rebels or enemies of the state you're building it in can just come along and blow up? The same thing applies to the game. This means that MOST industrialists are going to stay in Hi Sec - no matter what you do. They will quit the game before they will go down to Lo Sec. So - ******* with them by doubling the taxes they pay for something - will accomplish NOTHING but pissing them off. You can NOT change that. You can make people quit - but you cannot change that fundamental fact of the game. Individuals may come and go - but the type of people who are in Lo & Hi Sec now - are going to remain the same and consequently - be present in the same percentages.
2) Lo Sec is mostly about combat. You have some people who go down there to make money but most of the people down there are there to blow each other up. The ones down there making money are there mostly because it's a more exciting way to make money than up in Hi Sec - not because they can make more of it.
3) If Dust is dependent on players building things on planets in Lo Sec for the people of Dust to attack - there's going to be nothing left after the first day. Dust - to succeed - MUST have some other purpose for people to be involved in. It's like Walking in Stations - you've really got to have some content that is NEW to these expansions or they will both be failures.
As long as people can launch to space - they won't let another player gouge them - which is exactly what the other players in EVE will do. Take away their ability to launch into space - and they will give up on PI.
So - the basic concept behind the POCO - is a failure. Add to that the fact that it can be blown up - and has to be defended by ships (!) since it is defenseless and you've got a ludicrous idea.
Just off the top of my head ... here's some things that you could do to make this work ...
1) Scrap the idea of this structure as a Customs Office and view it as an orbital industrial platform. Essentially something akin to a POS that is in orbit around a Planet rather than a moon. It can serve as a transshipment point - that's fine - but you need something MORE than that for it to be successful.
2) Come with some advantage having such a structure in orbit will give you to using the resources of the planet.
a) It could increase the number of colonies you can field on the surface. b) It could hold factories in space that could further process the planets materials. c) It must be defensible. It absolutely MUST have weapons of it's own or allow a POS to be built next to it with it's weapons to protect it. d) Allow players to create and rent offices where they can park their ships and set up their factories. e) Come up with additional items that can be manufactured in these stations, or bought or sold there. f) Let there be more than one per planet. g) Make it so they can be captured by landing troops on them rather than just being destroyed - that would give the Dust people something else to do besides fight on the surface. h) Allow them to (somehow) attack or defend the colonies on the surface. Make them into platforms from which the PLANET can be attacked or defended. I) Allow colonies on the surface to erect shield modules to pretect themselves and weapons modules to fire back. J) Give the orbital platforms and the colonies drones. K) Make the transshipment an actual ship that leaves the surface and travels to the orbital station. L) Let players land their own ships at colonies and fly through the atmosphere ... (remember that?) ...
Essentially ... make them something like smaller versions of the NPC Stations - but with an emphasis on doing things involving the planet below them.
If the idea is to succeed - it cannot be just something else for the PVP people to blow up - they aren't going to build them. You have to have a REASON for industrialists to build them - and if you want peole to build them in Lo Sec - it's got to be not only a damn good reason - but they have to be defensible too.
Anyway ... whatever you do ... the idea you've got now is a failure. At best - it will be ignored ... at worst it will ruin PI ... which is in bad enough shape already.
What you needed was something to make PI better - not worse - such as the ability for the Corporation to have designated members move the goods rather than just having one person do it all. |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies The 20 Minuters
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 07:10:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Having thought on this feature some more I think you could fix most of the concerns raised regarding lowsec and NPC null fairly simple. Do not give people the ability to deny people access to their POCO's there. Maybe do give them the ability of variable tax rates based on standing (though I realise that might be hard to code for).
My reasoning is this; your corporate wallet will show the transactions and thus you will have it timestamped when your enemies access the offices, want to deny them? Take action on that. But no easy you can't use this.
This way you don't shut the smaller entities out and owners will see more usage and thus better returns on their investment. And get the extra intel of when hostile indy's are active through walllet timestamps.
Irrelevant, but; also makes more sense from a story point of view lowsec and npc null are somebodies 'property' already. Them giving rights to people to exploit CO's seems possible. Them giving others total control over planetary in- and export does not. |
Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 07:14:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Like: Yay player owned and controlled stuff!!!! Dislike: More ::effort:: for industry guys? Really? *sadface* Like: Factor of 5 increase on links??? OMG, can now **** planetary production in 0.0/wh without the resulting assramming of powergrid! *love*
Result: +1 Like!!! \o/
So, now more technical stuff, I'm sure it's been asked already but I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet. Poke me to correct answers if so:
I assume materials cannot be imported/exported if the structure is in reinforced mode, yes? What about if it's simply under attack? What about if it's come out of reinforced mode but not yet repaired?
How many hitpoints?
Is it possible to view people's assets in the storage, similar to how outpost owners can view other corporations' assets? Can their stuff be taken similar to how outpost owners can repossess other corporations' "abandoned" assets?
Can taxes be different per level of friendliness? Eg, reddits get 100% tax, neutral get 5% tax, friendlies get 1% tax, allies get 0% tax, etc?
And now there's dragonsex here. :D |
Jade Nexia
CHON THE R0NIN
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 07:47:00 -
[1019] - Quote
This.
Meldan Anstian wrote:Lin Fatale wrote:
Why not take this Idea and add some real dynamic and small scale pvp to the game? POCO HP = 500.000 HP => can be rfed by a 10 men roaming gang in 15 min => enough time to form a counter fleet POCO Costs = 20 mil ISK => also small corps or people in lowsec can drop 10 of it in a system POCO drops everything if it dies => roaming gang get a fight or some ISK => its not the end of the world for the PI owner
I put up a POCO for 20 mil ISK. As the owner of the POCO, what am I risking by loosing the POCO other than the POCO's cost itself? The PI materials? They aren't mine, I don't care. If I form a counter fleet and land on the 10 man roaming fleet attacking my POCO, and I loose 1 ship and sustain a loss of over 20 mil ISK from the battle, I would have been better to not defend the POCO at all and just put up a new one. If the 10 man gang puts it in RF mode, I come in to rep it. I am risking a ship, probably worth atleast 20 mil, to repair something less expensive then my ship I am flying. Again, let em blow it up, why risk a ship more expensive than what it's repairing? The owner of the PI materials in the POCO presumably would not get an notification that a POCO with my stuff is being attacked. If they did, why would they bother to defend it? It's not my POCO. If loosing my stuff in a POCO happened often enough, I keep my materials on the launch pad and only move it to the POCO when I come in system to pick it up. So the roaming gang really wouldnt get ISK, since PI owners wouldn't keep their stuff in a POCO. If we go the other way, and make a POCO very expensive and therefore worth defending, the payback time on the investment goes way up as well. Raising taxes to a point that the payback time is reasonable, raises the cost of Pi to unreasonable rates, and makes it worthwhile to avoid the POCO and just launch stuff into space avoiding the taxes entirely. I agree with what this idea is trying to achieve. I simply do not see a way to make it feasible in the game.
and this.
Meldan Anstian wrote:The only way I see this working.....
1. Keep all CO's not in high sec non destructible as they are now.
2. However, you can attack them as originally put forth in the blog... attack it, put into RF mode, come back in 24 hours and "destroy it". When you "destroy" it, you are really gaining ownership of it, not really destroying it.
3. You then can set taxes as you wish. Too high and people either move to another planet or just use launches to avoid your taxes. Too low and you get swamped with people trying to save money on taxes, but resources on the planet are depleted very quickly, hurting everyone's income.
4. No matter what state the CO is in, you can go up to it and get resources out of it, and risk getting your ass blown off too.
5. Maybe make it so that you can't lock out people in low sec with standings, but you can in WH and null sec? I don't know, would want feedback from people before deciding on this definitively if I were CCP.
6. The tariff's would work the same as planned in the blog.
7. CO's would stay in NPC ownership until attacked and "destroyed".
You get the original intent of getting income via planetary taxation, and also the increased player-to-player interaction.
You avoid the problems of trying to get a return on investment of a destructible structure. The CO's become somewhat worthwhile to defend since you would loose whatever income it generated. They would become somewhat worthwhile to attack to gain the income from the CO.
The effect on the overall economy is much much easier to understand and predict, and certainly not as dramatic.
It avoids the vacuum of CO's just after implementation as originally planned.
The only problem I see is that the 10-20 mill ISK income per month... isn't really worth fighting much over.
Simply, both of you sum it up. New POCO will not work at all. Either way if it will become cheap there will not be any reason to defend it. If become expensive it will stop PI products flow. PI isn't profitable enough to justify average 5 x high-cost initial investment, for something what could be blown up, if you aren't able defend it 24/7.
BTW: if new POCO would be able block access to PI like outpost are able to block docking rights, then it will be only tool for abusing BLOB power, which is really bad for EVE comunity. Bully's heaven is what we wish for EVE? |
Nyla Skin
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 07:50:00 -
[1020] - Quote
Korvin wrote:Yeah. All that this game was needed is a lots-of-HP-structure-with-a-reinforce to shoot at for 5 hours every day.
I can't help but ... agree /sarcasm |
|
Nyla Skin
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 08:00:00 -
[1021] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:
It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.
Regards Omen
That is not the POINT.
Being in a solo corp is BORING. Being in another corp means you propably do NOT HAVE the ROLES.
Why is it so difficult to understand? CCP should maybe play their own game more. How many CCP people play eve in a solo corp?
At the very least, improve corp roles and make it so you can assign access rights individually to each piece of corp property.
CCP Omen wrote: CONCORD (or someone) demands that all Customs Offices are always visible on the Overview per default no matter who owns them.
And what did Concord have to do in nullsec, let alone wormhole space?
CCP Omen wrote:Orakkus wrote:
Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best.
Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.
Then you will propably forget to add a feature that allows corp to transfer ownership of CO to another corp.. |
Minamel
Stardust Heavy Industries United Pod Service
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 08:15:00 -
[1022] - Quote
I in general like the changes. Could be interesting even if it will be harder to get some shiny Pi mats.
What i am affraid off, is removing Storage of Launchpads. Power on planets is short with all setups. If Power and Cpucost stays the same you will have to add one or more storages and i hope that for removing storage of Launchpads they will lower the Power requirements a bit that the overall setup costs dont rise too much. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
117
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 08:19:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Overall this is good change for bigger alliances.
Current PI system did not produce any profits for them.
This game is really favoring those alliances anyway, if we think what moon mining is practise:
You setup pos which produce goods for you were you online or not, and that is legit.
CCP is fightning against macro miners who try to do same in smaller scale on belts.
Now these customs offices will bring more money to those who setup new 'bot' to collect taxes.
So what i am trying to say is that CCP provides some kind of botting services for those who can and can afford to setup moon mining pos or custom offices.
CCP should really get rid of this kind of mechanics not to produce more of those. |
Nyla Skin
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 08:30:00 -
[1024] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote: Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.
That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen I don't mean to be rude, though it may sound rude to ask... but do you play the game? In what age and era do 0.0 alliances do anything to "provide services" to those who aren't on their blue-lists? They will simply blow up the low-sec CO's they haven't set standings on in order to grief everyone who hasn't signed up to the biggest bluefest in EVE's history. No null entity will care about making a 9% tax profit off of these things, they will simply want them gone so they can corner the market on POS fuel production. Like the Russians or the Goons give a horse's ass about a small isk profit on low-sec CO's when they control tech moons. They will simply destroy to grief. The state of 0.0 is so shite right now that Goons are camping Gallente ice fields out of pure bluefest boredom. It's not a matter of 0.0 alliances becoming even richer by monopolizing their nearby low sec CO's, it is that they will simply destroy them and replace them with nothing. And even if your scenario were true, no, that isn't "fine." Why are you trying to design a mechanic that simply allows the rich to get richer? Nothing in this change helps small entities, and that you would say "if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this" almost sounds like a complete troll. You designed yet another HP-grind that will only benefit the blobfest while giving the average capsuleer even less incentive to dip their toe out of high sec.
I so wish I could double-like this post.
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
Now its official, you have no idea whatsoever how eve works. Just the kind of person who I want to be in charge of making gameplay changes. Not.
The alliances don't care for peanuts when they are making 1000000x more money by other means which you so graciously awarded them with. They MAY care that the planet provides pos fuels to the enemy, and will therefore take down the office, put their own up and set tax to 100%. Or more propably just take it down if they dont need it. They deny resources to non-blue entities, period.
This change, like every one for the past 1,5 years or so (Ive lost count) directly benefits large alliances ONLY, since it gives them yet another mechanic they can use to oppress the weak.
Can all of CCP take a month off and just PLAY the game? Maybe you would get some revelations. It would certainly be an improvement in the quality of patches (not making them that is). |
Sylar McIntyr
Konstrukteure der Zukunft The Initiative.
27
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 08:41:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Why didn't you implement something like this: Link
Would be moar awesome. And why 10Mio eHP? that will just encourage more supercap blobs Give everyone in the cluster a voice! |
Solar Wander
5th Front enterprises Nulli Tertius
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:01:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Just another way of making smaller players lives harder yet again. Do something in 0.0 if you want but why stuff up what was running ok. Unless your in a Corps how are you meant to run a CO with out mutluple accts. So as a single player you start using one then the corp owner decides to pull it down, what happen to the stuff you have in storage?? Will it mean corp wont be able to tear it down until all stuff moved out.
Just leave the things alone surely there must be more pressing things you can tinker with. This side of P.I isn't broken you will just make it less attractive to do anything with P.I and the rich corps get richer and the small players get screwed yet again |
Sashaaa
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:03:00 -
[1027] - Quote
Nyla Skin wrote:XavierVE wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote: Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.
That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen I don't mean to be rude, though it may sound rude to ask... but do you play the game? In what age and era do 0.0 alliances do anything to "provide services" to those who aren't on their blue-lists? They will simply blow up the low-sec CO's they haven't set standings on in order to grief everyone who hasn't signed up to the biggest bluefest in EVE's history. No null entity will care about making a 9% tax profit off of these things, they will simply want them gone so they can corner the market on POS fuel production. Like the Russians or the Goons give a horse's ass about a small isk profit on low-sec CO's when they control tech moons. They will simply destroy to grief. The state of 0.0 is so shite right now that Goons are camping Gallente ice fields out of pure bluefest boredom. It's not a matter of 0.0 alliances becoming even richer by monopolizing their nearby low sec CO's, it is that they will simply destroy them and replace them with nothing. And even if your scenario were true, no, that isn't "fine." Why are you trying to design a mechanic that simply allows the rich to get richer? Nothing in this change helps small entities, and that you would say "if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this" almost sounds like a complete troll. You designed yet another HP-grind that will only benefit the blobfest while giving the average capsuleer even less incentive to dip their toe out of high sec. I so wish I could double-like this post. CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope. Now its official, you have no idea whatsoever how eve works. Just the kind of person who I want to be in charge of making gameplay changes. Not. The alliances don't care for peanuts when they are making 1000000x more money by other means which you so graciously awarded them with. They MAY care that the planet provides pos fuels to the enemy, and will therefore take down the office, put their own up and set tax to 100%. Or more propably just take it down if they dont need it. They deny resources to non-blue entities, period. This change, like every one for the past 1,5 years or so (Ive lost count) directly benefits large alliances ONLY, since it gives them yet another mechanic they can use to oppress the weak. Can all of CCP take a month off and just PLAY the game? Maybe you would get some revelations. It would certainly be an improvement in the quality of patches (not making them that is).
For the love of all things Holy, please listen.
Isn't listening, what the new CCP does ? |
Arra Lith
HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:16:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Players Customs Offices are great, but CCP needs to add some protection against griefing.
Some group just want to screw someone else and decides to mount a gang and kill all COs in region. Few caps or bunch of BS can reinforce all COs in region in few hours (will take around minute per CO). Next day it will be impossible for defenders to defend all of them, so around 50-80% will get killed.
To attack CO it should require attacking side to first deploy their own Gantry to start "siege" working one. Anchoring and onlining time should be like 30 mins total - enough to alert some defenders so we can have battle, and short enough to not make attackers bored. After working Customs Office is destroyed attackers can activate their own, which they used to start sieging process. Or if they want they can unanchor it.
That means griefing will be much harder (but not impossible), but if you want fight for control over planet it will change nothing, as you need your own Customs Office anyway.
Suggestion
1) There is no CO at planet: Anyone can anchor and online Costoms Office Gantry.
2) Once placed and upgraded to Customs Office it goes active to use and invulnerable.
3) To attack CO attackers need to anchor and online their own CO Gantry. It can be attacked immediatelly, and time to online should be short (15-30 mins - just enough to alert defenders so they can organise fleet)
4) When attackers Gantry onlines defenders CO goes vulnerable and can be attacked.
5-a) If attackers CO gets destroyed defenders CO goes back to invulnerable mode. 5-b) If defenders CO gets to 25% shields it goes invulnerable, as well as attackers CO.
6) After reinforce ends and defenders lose their own CO attackers have option to upgrade it from Gantry to working CO (and collect isk from taxes) - it then goes invulnerable (going back to step 2); or they can unanchor their structure, leaving planet without CO (going back to step 1).
--edit-- There still can be only one working CO at same time. If second Gantry is anchored it cannot be accessed from planet - its used only to make active Customs Office vulnerable, (ie by breaking energy link with planet that makes shield inpenetrable). |
Pesadel0
the muppets RED.OverLord
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:19:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Sorry but he is rigth (the dev) if you as a player want to harvest big game you have to belong to alliances or disrupt their activities, i agree the only thing that it needs tweaking is the amount of HP so that we can reinforce.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
66
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:20:00 -
[1030] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Daedalus II wrote:It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight.
My condolences. My software company saw lay offs awhile back, and I can seriously say that nothing impacted my productivity more. Survivor's guilt can be a tough thing to deal with.
Sad stuff aside, I've been (sadly) following this thread for entirely too long. I'm still seeing a lot of the same information being posted. If you are considering posting, please tie your comments back to something that's been said previously if you haven't got something altogether different to say. It will make it easier for the information to be digested by the people that actually need to hear what the players have to say. |
|
Sauraah
Voracious Violence
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:21:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Abramul wrote: Further, make command center storage space increase with upgrades, to 5k m3 or so.
Agreed on making the command center storage space larger with upgrades. Only being able to launch 500m3 into space at a time will be a major headache.
I'm saying goodbye to easy, partially passive, low sec isk making.
|
Razor Blue
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:47:00 -
[1032] - Quote
At first i thought that this would be good idea, but then i gave little thought about it. I do have 4 chars in low sec, having 22 command centers in 8 planets. The system is nice and quiet... So if POCOs are implemented, its probably me who is going to launch all those POCOs, the price tag would be around 500mil - 1b, and that investment probably would be never covered.
And why would anyone blow POCOs up then? The reason is simple: Because they can. Same reason aplies as to why would anyone block people from using their planets? Because they can...
The reason, imo, why POCOs wil not work is that there would be no "middle gound" in their usage. It would be either 100% tax, total block out, or blow 'em up.
Lastly, 2 things: 1 ."Blinking wallet intel". If im using someone elses POCO, does his/hers wallet blink everytime me/my alts use the service? 2. Can you make them deployable by all Blockade Runners? The Customs Gantry (9600m3) doesnt fit into Prowler nor Crane.
edit. Adding this idea: 1. Allow multiple POCOs at planet and reduce their price and hp 2. Make them indestructible, but attackable. So someone could raid and put other peoples POCOs out of order for a few days 3. Repairing them would not happen by shield transfers nor armor repairers, but adding certain minerals and/or PI materials into POCO hangar and starting "repair timer". Kinda like POS refineries. 4. After 30days unused POCO would be decommissioned automatically |
Paski
Alchemy Enterprises Corporation
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:41:00 -
[1033] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.
Regards Omen
did you really say that the little guy can get out of low sec and null sec and should just stay in empire, did you not read CCPs own design principles for Null Sec Design Principles, you have just taken the one activity that a careful solo indy player can do in low/null and opened them to the mercy of the bored blob
and your apparently professional CCP Dev response is "get back to empire, null sec and low sec belong to the blob" you should be ashamed of such an ill considered approach
|
Arra Lith
HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:53:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Razor Blue wrote: 2. Can you make them deployable by all Blockade Runners? The Customs Gantry (9600m3) doesnt fit into Prowler nor Crane.
Signed. It should be either same as Control Towers (8000 m3) - fitting to all cov op transports. Or it should be 12000 m3, making it only for industrial / deep space transports. Visually they seems to be smaller than Control Towers, so it seems strange they have larger packed volume ;s
|
Paski
Alchemy Enterprises Corporation
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:56:00 -
[1035] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough. If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.
This post and the quotes from the dev prove that CCP Omen has not a clue about human nature and how eve works, he sounds like Alan Greenspan thinking that the financial markets will self-regulate themselves based on logic, and look where that got us
and he says that if it does not work the way he expects then he has other plans, by then it is broken mate, too late
wake up a realise what you are doing, your theories might work in a spreadsheet in a perfect world but they certainly won't work in eve, can we get a real dev without training wheels to step in and bring a little CCP sense to this, you guys seem to be doing a great job lately, now this
|
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies The 20 Minuters
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:13:00 -
[1036] - Quote
There is a good reason to deny others access to your POCO's even if you are not in null.
Multiple players extracting from the same resource pockets depletes them faster, at least according to CCP's own PI tutorial video. So by locking out the competition I can have my hotspots last longer.
Add to this that for the first months after this is introduced in it's current form CO's in lowsec will be rarity and publicly accessible ones will be even rarer. Not only making them more likely to get 'camped' also resulting in a larger number of players using the same planets and thus depleting the pockets faster (further reducing the profitably compared to hi-sec).
Basically under the new system I am required to invest heavily in infrastructure that is more likely to be camped (risking a 100 million transport vessel, that would take weeks to earn back by itself). Share whatever resources are on the planet with more players further reducing my profit (cause lets be frank if I close the POCO I vastly increase the risk of it being shot at).
I still have to do the math but I think you may effectively be telling me to move to hi-sec and train a couple more PI alts on my accounts to make up the difference. Thanks for the extra grind of clicking for an extra hour each day I guess leaving me with less time to actually do 'fun' stuff. |
none nalim
Lamb Federation Navy Against ALL Authorities
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:25:00 -
[1037] - Quote
So when owner of sov changes I will have to:
1. Gather fleet to reinforce (I see those happy faces when they hear word 'reinforce') 5x POC thats is 50mln ehp. 2. Ask my corp to give me rights to anchor POC or find someone that will do it. 3. Buy 5x POC (yes, buy, no corp will be interested in investing 375-500kk isks when they calculate profit/risk).
Hell no, won't do it.
Why not to: 1. Make tax not in isks but percentage from good people produce. example: 5% tax for tier 1 products. 5% of coolant produced goes to "corp storage" in POC? Yeah that will be interesting in 0.0. Allow different taxes for different tiers. 2. Make bigger silos to allow to setup production for 1 week. Good passive income every week? Thats the thing worth fighting for. Doing PI every day isn't fun. 5,10.15 planets every day or two? no thank you.
This way corp gets good that are needed in 0.0 or can sell them, people have good income without hours of clicking mouse. Worth defending and worth attacking if only corp storage is big enough to gather 1 month tax. (attacker should see how many goods are in POC and if defender can't take them out while in reinforce)
Sorry for my English. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:26:00 -
[1038] - Quote
Basicly since he knows not to much about eve he should have been on that fireing list they just went thru. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:26:00 -
[1039] - Quote
Crossposting from the FHC thread on this: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?4144-DEVBLOG-Player-owned-customs-office
I wrote:
It occurs to me that unless there is an (optional) mechanic to steal ownership of a PCO then the natural preference of lowsec natives to salt the earth (rather than leaving a stable population to 'farm') will practically ensure that individual PI entrepreneurs will not operate anywhere except lowsec backwater islands as the PCOs they are using will be destroyed. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Sashaaa
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:32:00 -
[1040] - Quote
I am truly sorry for all the CCP employees that are going to lose their jobs.
However, judging by CCP Omen's responses in this thread, he is totally clueless about this game and how people play it.
I was just wondering if he is still going to have a job within CCP, and if so why ? |
|
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:38:00 -
[1041] - Quote
And please add a simple corp hanger? I did have 10x the space planned for the corp hanger, but that just makes the personal hanger size obsolete. 35,000m3 for both then, I guess.
http://i.imgur.com/rSdoZ.png becomes http://i.imgur.com/VQAc0.png Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Via Shivon
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:47:00 -
[1042] - Quote
this thread is full of tears *rofl*
this game is a MMO - MASSIVE Multiplayer Online game: You are NOT suppose to play ths game all allone... You SHOULD interact with other ppl, join corps, join allys.... So stop ******* crying because you cant get rich anymore doing PI ALL ALLONE, having a POS ALL ALLONE, you are NOT suppose to...
Just stop PI then if its to complicatet, to expensive because of those LOLTAXES or JOIN A CORP OR ALLY ... And nothing is wrong on big blobs...real life is full of big blobs : USA, RUSSIAN, EUROS....its normal
CCP has to fire ppl because of mistakes and PI in is actuall way its fail - SOOOO MUCH ******* AFK ISK coming in the game, every idiot can pay 3 acc with isk from PI... and CCP earns? what?
Just stop crying, be constructive like allot ppl are in this thread and eat what comes or do something different.
PI is not the main part of eve...
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
214
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:47:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:Rek Seven wrote:As a percentage, how much more material is on a low sec planet compared to a high sec planet?
I'm just thinking that if a low sec planet has a 50% better yield than a high sec planet but the this new system restricts high sec tax to 10% max, would it be feasible to set low sec tax to anything above 15%?
I get the impression that people think that the risk of doing PI in low sec does not outweigh the benefit, so perhaps for this to work, low sec pi would need to be buffed significantly to bring it closer inline with that of WH space and PI in null sec should be nerfed to prevent massive alliances from gaining a monopoly over the system... let's see: high sec profits * 1.5 (50% increase) * 0.85 (detract 15% tariffs) / (0.90 (high sec profits - high sec tariffs) equals about 1.4, so there's easily 40% more profit in low sec at the taxes you suggest. even upping those taxes to 40% would still give you profits on a level to high sec. Of course, this does not calculate the difference in risk. Edit: yay, #1000!
Then maybe CCP need to seriously consider buffing low sec PI materials to a level closer to that of null sec and WH space if they want this to work.
I think Low sec POCO are at the biggest risk of being attacked by random gangs so there has to be a major advantage for people to set a POCO up in low sec. |
Jade Nexia
CHON THE R0NIN
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:48:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Bad bones of idea around POCO:
1) presumption about that someone will share planet if he will have posibility to lock it down. Lock it down mean more profit and eliminating competition. Monopoly do you know it from RL life? There are laws against monopoly and it has reason. 2) logs in wallet show exactly who and when he did pay taxes. When I want hunt down someone who is in my space. I would put small taxes on POCO to see who and when, then I will just camp POCO with cloked gang boat and kill him. Free juicy targets. 3) all CO's will be eliminated in one single step, with supply of BPC just from LP store will production of new POCOs slowly fullfil market needs. CCP know how many active planets actually producing PI to market. Imagine spike in demand/supply chain at least in one month transition period. POCOs wouldn't cost 100mil but I expect it in first few weeks going over 1bil per each. 4) POCOs can be set up only player who is in corporation and have correct rights to do it. How many coporations have given these rights to all members? I can't imagine that I would travel across EVE universe just because some peon in my corporation want to POCO at particular planet. BTW it completely block access to PI for huge number of players in EVE.
Conclusion: I can foresee 1st flashes of it by just cheacking graphs on market. PI pices will go 10 times expensive than are, then will slowly fall down over months. Because many planets get locked just for only owner of POCO and his friends (may be). Most of PI producers would give it up or partially move alts to high-sec. High sec planets does produce 1/5 to 1/10 of what planets in 0.0 or wh-space does. So I do expect new stable prices around 5 times more expensive than are pre-blog annoucement.
It is really what Omen want to, or he has no authority who will correct him? Are there in CCP any senior developers who can teach other to rething steps with more care?
Quick bandage of bad idea is removing ability to lock down POCO access, 100% taxes could be enough. Owner still have great intel adventage by just checking wallet to see who and when using his POCO. It is like having cloaked spy 24/7 sitting at all his owned POCOs. |
Sashaaa
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:50:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Via Shivon wrote: SOOOO MUCH ******* AFK ISK coming in the game, every idiot can pay 3 acc with isk from PI... and CCP earns? what?
ummm....your tech moons - no AFK ISK coming in there
Jeez
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
214
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:52:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Sashaaa wrote:I am truly sorry for all the CCP employees that are going to lose their jobs.
However, judging by CCP Omen's responses in this thread, he is totally clueless about this game and how people play it.
I was just wondering if he is still going to have a job within CCP, and if so why ?
Damn, you guys need to take a long hard look at your selves... Calling for people to be fired because they have the desency to try and answer some questions?! That's real scummy.
How many games have you played where the developers are this active on the forums and let you know way ahead of time what they have planed?
|
Jade Nexia
CHON THE R0NIN
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:54:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Via Shivon wrote:this thread is full of tears *rofl*
this game is a MMO - MASSIVE Multiplayer Online game: You are NOT suppose to play ths game all allone... You SHOULD interact with other ppl, join corps, join allys.... So stop ******* crying because you cant get rich anymore doing PI ALL ALLONE, having a POS ALL ALLONE, you are NOT suppose to...
Just stop PI then if its to complicatet, to expensive because of those LOLTAXES or JOIN A CORP OR ALLY ... And nothing is wrong on big blobs...real life is full of big blobs : USA, RUSSIAN, EUROS....its normal
CCP has to fire ppl because of mistakes and PI in is actuall way its fail - SOOOO MUCH ******* AFK ISK coming in the game, every idiot can pay 3 acc with isk from PI... and CCP earns? what?
Just stop crying, be constructive like allot ppl are in this thread and eat what comes or do something different.
PI is not the main part of eve...
dear Via Shivon,
PI is main part of eve, everything in your T2 ship and T2 module is build from materials produced in PI. Without PI you shiny T2,T3 wouldn't evere exist. Enjoy time flying T1 ship with T1 fit, if you think that PI isn't main part of EVE. Think twice before you raise your voice.
Thank you |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
214
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:58:00 -
[1048] - Quote
Jade Nexia wrote:Via Shivon wrote:this thread is full of tears *rofl*
this game is a MMO - MASSIVE Multiplayer Online game: You are NOT suppose to play ths game all allone... You SHOULD interact with other ppl, join corps, join allys.... So stop ******* crying because you cant get rich anymore doing PI ALL ALLONE, having a POS ALL ALLONE, you are NOT suppose to...
Just stop PI then if its to complicatet, to expensive because of those LOLTAXES or JOIN A CORP OR ALLY ... And nothing is wrong on big blobs...real life is full of big blobs : USA, RUSSIAN, EUROS....its normal
CCP has to fire ppl because of mistakes and PI in is actuall way its fail - SOOOO MUCH ******* AFK ISK coming in the game, every idiot can pay 3 acc with isk from PI... and CCP earns? what?
Just stop crying, be constructive like allot ppl are in this thread and eat what comes or do something different.
PI is not the main part of eve...
dear Via Shivon, PI is main part of eve, everything in your T2 ship and T2 module is build from materials produced in PI. Without PI you shiny T2,T3 wouldn't evere exist. Enjoy time flying T1 ship with T1 fit, if you think that PI isn't main part of EVE. Think twice before you raise your voice. Thank you
Yes but it is a relatively new feature so it's foolish to think that it would never change. And don't kid yourself, some crybabies may stop their PI production but new PI industrialists will spring up to take their place. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:05:00 -
[1049] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:[quote=CCP Nullarbor] Sad stuff aside, I've been (sadly) following this thread for entirely too long. I'm still seeing a lot of the same information being posted. If you are considering posting, please tie your comments back to something that's been said previously if you haven't got something altogether different to say. It will make it easier for the information to be digested by the people that actually need to hear what the players have to say.
People aren't used to using the "Like" button to push stuff to the top and they want to get their 0.02 ISK. |
Sashaaa
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:07:00 -
[1050] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Sashaaa wrote:I am truly sorry for all the CCP employees that are going to lose their jobs.
However, judging by CCP Omen's responses in this thread, he is totally clueless about this game and how people play it.
I was just wondering if he is still going to have a job within CCP, and if so why ? Damn, you guys need to take a long hard look at your selves... Calling for people to be fired because they have the desency to try and answer some questions?! That's real scummy. How many games have you played where the developers are this active on the forums and let you know way ahead of time what they have planed?
I am not calling for anyone to be sacked.
I was just suggesting that if people need to be sacked, they should keep the guys who have a clue.
|
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:09:00 -
[1051] - Quote
The deafening silence we're getting with regards to addressing concerns and issues is speaking volumes. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:26:00 -
[1052] - Quote
One thing I don't think anyone else has mentioned (but can't be bothered to read the last 20 pages), is that "100% tax" is far from 100% of market price. It's 12k isk for P3 items (such as robotics, currently 70k market price), and just 180 isk por P2 (such as coolant, uranium, mech parts, currently around 10k on market).
The only exception is P4 items where 100% tax is 1 million isk. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Desiderya
Wolfraam 74
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:29:00 -
[1053] - Quote
Quote: SOOOO MUCH ******* AFK ISK coming in the game, every idiot can pay 3 acc with isk from PI... and CCP earns? what?
CCP earns the money from the ones who bought the PLEX for $ in the first place. I know, difficult concept to grasp... |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
91
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:32:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:Quote: SOOOO MUCH ******* AFK ISK coming in the game, every idiot can pay 3 acc with isk from PI... and CCP earns? what?
CCP earns the money from the ones who bought the PLEX for $ in the first place. I know, difficult concept to grasp...
Also PI doesnt add any isk to the game, just moves the isk already there around. And in fact at the moment it removes a .. tiny amount :)
|
Quetazal
Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:41:00 -
[1055] - Quote
There needs to be a new corp Role: Construct Customs Office
oh and Manager of customs office.
Most corps. worth there salt don't give out Config Starbase |
Sierra Hotel
Fusion Death Inc. Eternal Evocations
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:49:00 -
[1056] - Quote
I don't think CCP has really thought this through and I think this is a bad idea. The CSM might have brought it up but a change this big should probably get a citizen vote. As far as the comments about this being an MMO and if I want to play I NEED to be in a large corp blah, blah, blah. I really have to laugh at the stupidity of people who say it's an MMO and you need to interact with players more. Those are the people who have no RL interaction and thus must force others into their "world". It's a game and I and others play it the way we chose to enjoy it or we take our money elsewhere. Peak time players used to be in the 50k range, recently I have noticed that it is around 40k. A 20% drop is bad for any business. 80% of businesses are small business and constantly rewarding the bully alliances more power in the game just reduces the interaction that CCP supposedly wants. I suggest CCP reconsider it's approach of mega corps and alliances and tune the game to support smaller corporations where members aren't just another toon, they are part of the team. I could go on but it would be pointless since I don't think anyone really "listens" in here anyway. If CCP insists on putting this forward I would suggest the following. 1. Only implement this where there is player sovereignty. 2. Use a land grab approach to the CO's. For example in a certain time frame have their ownership "expire" spaced randomly with time. Once a CO expires it can be claimed through a visitation process. (however you want to implement, could be a right click to claim with a 5, 10 min timer) Until it is "claimed" the CO still works like normal. Once claimed it becomes the property of the owner and if destroyed must be replaced. This will minimize the transition for PI products (prices have already double in the last two days.) 3. Increase the command centers ability to upload PI to space. Not as easy as the CO but enough to make it worth playing Ninja. |
Via Shivon
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:51:00 -
[1057] - Quote
Sashaaa wrote:Via Shivon wrote: SOOOO MUCH ******* AFK ISK coming in the game, every idiot can pay 3 acc with isk from PI... and CCP earns? what? ummm....your tech moons - no AFK ISK coming in there Jeez
yeah shure you think we get our acc paid from moon res? lol
|
Splatacus
Cordata Enterprises
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:13:00 -
[1058] - Quote
If I understand this correctly this will have the following effects:
High sec PI will be profitable - not because of the yield of the planets but the increased price of PI products and the risk-free farmville-game that continues.
Low sec PI will be ignored since the cost / hassle of setting up a Custom's office and the inability to defend it will make it a virtual pinata for anyone with guns.
null-sec will be where PI will be farmed by virtual or real bots who encounter zero risk and due to price rises earn massive rewards
WH will be mostly unchanged since bringing down a customs office will - hopefully - take a lot of firepower and stamina - unless you want to take over a WH, not worth doing. And if you want to take over a WH, why bother taking out the Customsoffice at all - you need to clear the POS first.
On balance - I think C1/C2 WH with reasonable access to empire and nullsec massive alliances with dedicated slaves / industrial corps will gain most
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:15:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:One thing I don't think anyone else has mentioned (but can't be bothered to read the last 20 pages), is that "100% tax" is far from 100% of market price. It's 12k isk for P3 items (such as robotics, currently 70k market price), and just 180 isk por P2 (such as coolant, uranium, mech parts, currently around 10k on market).
The only exception is P4 items where 100% tax is 1 million isk.
That's part of the underlying issue (the following assumes a 5% tax rate being equivalent to today's prices and is using the current export tax amounts, and before the current price spike):
- Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate). - P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate - P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate - P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate - P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate
P4 is going to be hit extra hard by the tax increase because its tax rates were already far about those of the other products. While P1 taxes are so low that even at 100%, a POCO can't pay for itself in less then 2-3 months. Generally, only foolish people exported P0, so I'm ignoring that.
If a 5% tax on P1 was about 5x above what we currently pay on P1 export taxes and P2 taxes were also increased about 4x, then POCOs would make a lot more economic sense for P1 harvest planets (which is predominantly what you see in lo-sec) and the P0->P2 harvest planets where people turn (2) P0 into a P2 to reduce haul volume (which is the other type of planet colony you usually see in lo-sec).
Taxes on P4 need to be dropped by about 2x before the new tax rate rolls out. (Basically, given historical prices, all tiers should be paying about a 1% tax at the 5% mark.) |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:32:00 -
[1060] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:P4 is going to be hit extra hard by the tax increase because its tax rates were already far about those of the other products. While P1 taxes are so low that even at 100%, a POCO can't pay for itself in less then 2-3 months. Generally, only foolish people exported P0, so I'm ignoring that.
On the other hand, I don't think you can do P4 all in one planet, so I'd expect it to be produced in highsec factory planets, largely unaffected by this.
Quote:If a 5% tax on P1 was about 5x above what we currently pay on P1 export taxes and P2 taxes were also increased about 4x, then POCOs would make a lot more economic sense for P1 harvest planets (which is predominantly what you see in lo-sec) and the P0->P2 harvest planets where people turn (2) P0 into a P2 to reduce haul volume (which is the other type of planet colony you usually see in lo-sec).
Whats the usual yield (units/day) of those lowsec harvest planets? What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:40:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Some responses to issues in general:
Blinking wallet intel: It's the corp wallet that will increase, not a player's. I don't think your average corp member's wallet icon blinks for corporate account balance changes. To gather the intel, someone with corp wallet access would have to be watching their corp wallet window. Otherwise, it makes perfect sense that you'd see the records of who accessed your CO and when. There's nothing stealthy about "docking up" a hauler at a customs office and loading up. Non-Issue.
Low-sec PI will be hard: Boo-hoo. Join a corp, stay in hisec, or man up and play the game. Low-sec is empire space that empire doesn't bother to police. It's not supposed to be easy afk income.
Prices will go up: Yep, and then more people will get into either hi-sec PI because it's easy and more profitable than before, or they'll start building low-sec COs when they become cost-effective and really reap the profits. The market will find a balance between supply and demand.
You can't change it now, we're already used to the cushy life: Get over it. Ship hit points changed. Nano-nerf happened. Minmatar guns got buffed. Cap ships are continually evolving. The game changes, adapt or die.
But everyone will leave!: This isn't a game-breaking Nex gold ammo issue, it's just CCP moving your cheese. You'll adapt or someone will take your place in the production line when the money is there to be made. Hi-sec is still "safe" if you can't swim in the deep water where the sharks are. Concord will hold your hand there and make it all better. If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Isabella Thresher
Fat Kitty Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:44:00 -
[1062] - Quote
q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?
q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?
if both answers are NO, then this change will suck.... |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:46:00 -
[1063] - Quote
Arra Lith wrote:Players Customs Offices are great, but CCP needs to add some protection against griefing.
You mean you want additional protection besides recruiting more players, joining a corp, joining an alliance, joining a coalition, hiring mercs...? Might I also remind you that what you call "griefing" actually falls within CCP's definition of acceptable conduct.
This game has plenty of carebears who are smart enough to find a way to profit no matter what you throw at them. They will continue to put their PI products on the market (made in wormholes, nullsec and lowsec) and they'll sell for higher prices because weaker or less-organised carebears give up.
I suspect my alliance will aggressively persaude people not to drop customs offices in the systems we live in but, like any alliance, we can be stopped if you bring moar bigger gunz. Personally, I'll be lobbying for neutral entities to be allowed access to our customs offices with a sensible tax rate (after all, our own warbears will be using those planets, too). |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:47:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Isabella Thresher wrote:q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?
q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?
if both answers are NO, then this change will suck....
This is a good point. Does shooting a PCO give an aggression timer to the owning corp? If not then the defenders will have to lose sec status AND go GCC just to engage the attackers. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:49:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:P4 is going to be hit extra hard by the tax increase because its tax rates were already far about those of the other products. While P1 taxes are so low that even at 100%, a POCO can't pay for itself in less then 2-3 months. Generally, only foolish people exported P0, so I'm ignoring that. On the other hand, I don't think you can do P4 all in one planet, so I'd expect it to be produced in highsec factory planets, largely unaffected by this.
It all depends. I run a high sec factory planet, but my harvesting planets are in a low sec border system. For me it makes sense. However, if I were to live deeper in low sec (say farther into Aridia), I'm not so sure I would travel that far to populate factories, I'd likely build one in or near system. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:51:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Quote:If a 5% tax on P1 was about 5x above what we currently pay on P1 export taxes and P2 taxes were also increased about 4x, then POCOs would make a lot more economic sense for P1 harvest planets (which is predominantly what you see in lo-sec) and the P0->P2 harvest planets where people turn (2) P0 into a P2 to reduce haul volume (which is the other type of planet colony you usually see in lo-sec). Whats the usual yield (units/day) of those lowsec harvest planets?
Well, for every BIF that you can keep busy on a P1 planet, you're looking at 960 units/day of P1 output. Hi-sec planets generally keep 2-4 BIFs busy, the number I tend to hear bandied about for lo-sec is that their P1 harvest planets keep 5-7 BIFs busy and more like 8-12 BIFs in null-sec / w-space.
For P2/P3 factory worlds, you're generally looking at either a 3+18 (LPs+AIFs) up through about a 2+24 setup. A single P2 AIF puts out 120/day, a single P3 AIF outputs 72/day. |
Eowarian D
Cosmology Deadly Unknown
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:03:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts.
I agree on that. But then... Shouldn't CCP focus on the lag monster first, especially for the fleet fights, before creating new systems to provoke fleet fights? That time dilation feature won't do the trick, I'm afraid, or won't be enough. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:27:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:Isabella Thresher wrote:q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?
q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?
if both answers are NO, then this change will suck.... This is a good point. Does shooting a PCO give an aggression timer to the owning corp? If not then the defenders will have to lose sec status AND go GCC just to engage the attackers.
I've realised that the agression likely works the same way as attacking a POS. GCC unless you are at war. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:45:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Jack Dant wrote: Whats the usual yield (units/day) of those lowsec harvest planets?
Well, for every BIF that you can keep busy on a P1 planet, you're looking at 960 units/day of P1 output. Hi-sec planets generally keep 2-4 BIFs busy, the number I tend to hear bandied about for lo-sec is that their P1 harvest planets keep 5-7 BIFs busy and more like 8-12 BIFs in null-sec / w-space.
I confirmed this roughly on Sisi with my alt (horribly underskilled in PI). This means at 100% tax, you get a maximum of 100k/day per lowsec colony (the effective tax rate over market value should be around 4%). It takes forever to recover the POCO investment that way. Over three months with a horribly optimistic 10 colonies per planet.
What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 15:02:00 -
[1070] - Quote
(This is going to be a controversial statement...)
If hi-sec POCOs only charge a 10% tariff, then lo-sec POCos will not be able to compete and will not be attractive at all.
Hi-Sec POCOs are going to need to have about a 75% tariff, with the option to reduce that tariff (in hi-sec) using a combination of standings w/ the faction that controls that system and another skill like Broker Relations. With 10.0 standings and POCO Relations V, you should be able to shave the tariff down to about 50%. Which will enable lo-sec POCOs to have room to undercut the hi-sec tariffs.
The base tariffs on P4 need to be cut in half, and the base tariffs on P1 & P2 need to go up about 4x-5x.
Make sure that any UI elements call it a "Tariff" and not a "Tax rate". |
|
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 15:04:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Isabella Thresher wrote:q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?
Attacking a customs office in lowsec will give you GCC so anyone can shoot you, from the owning corp or otherwise.
Isabella Thresher wrote:q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?
Everyone from the owning corp may use the customs office but the inventory inside it, like PI, are stored per player.
CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 15:16:00 -
[1072] - Quote
@CCP Nullabor:
Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources. Those of us in wormholes... we're not running incursions or in FW, so we're completely cut off from the BPCs, fully dependent on entirely different groups of people. We also have a boatload of planets that would all need these things... ten in my hole alone... in order to function properly. Having to come up with either ten BPCs at non-insane prices (or worse, ten of these structures off the market) and build and/or move to position then upgrade... this is going to cause some quite significant hardships.
They definitely need to be much more accessible, especially for folks that simply aren't in a position in any way, shape or form to farm the LP needed for them. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
TheGunzo
TheCorporation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 15:23:00 -
[1073] - Quote
I think folks have hit on most of the CO concerns.
For me, if 5x will be applied to grid on the planet, we'll be stripping these things fast. Right now with just a dozen people in a 0.0 system, we're seeing the resources dwindle very quickly. I can't imagine multiplying this by 5! I know, the goal is to produce more complex items on one planet and that's cool.
It's just we're seeing planets go 'dry' very quickly in 0.0 as it is today...
Gunzo |
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 15:34:00 -
[1074] - Quote
TheGunzo wrote:I think folks have hit on most of the CO concerns.
For me, if 5x will be applied to grid on the planet, we'll be stripping these things fast. Right now with just a dozen people in a 0.0 system, we're seeing the resources dwindle very quickly. I can't imagine multiplying this by 5! I know, the goal is to produce more complex items on one planet and that's cool.
It's just we're seeing planets go 'dry' very quickly in 0.0 as it is today...
Gunzo
That's not how I'm reading it, unless in the rest of the comments flying about this thread there is more from CCP than the following blurb from the devblog.
Quote: Oh and one more thing, we have increased the bandwidth on all planetary links by a factor of five! Get those materials flowing!
I read that as an increase in the capacity of links between structures, not the total cpu/PG of the planet. While not having to pay extra PG bandwidth to upgrade a link will allow more extraction (in theory, depends on your links I guess) I don't think it will allow the massive buildup in planetary strip mining you think is coming.
|
Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
177
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 15:34:00 -
[1075] - Quote
TheGunzo wrote:I think folks have hit on most of the CO concerns.
For me, if 5x will be applied to grid on the planet, we'll be stripping these things fast. Right now with just a dozen people in a 0.0 system, we're seeing the resources dwindle very quickly. I can't imagine multiplying this by 5! I know, the goal is to produce more complex items on one planet and that's cool.
It's just we're seeing planets go 'dry' very quickly in 0.0 as it is today...
Gunzo
Links bandwidth, not grid. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 15:41:00 -
[1076] - Quote
funny al the ones supporting this the majority anyway,.... all seem to be in RMT allaices which claim they dont do it or bot... yet the Game map proves them wrong....
As for theman up HAHAH from people who dont undock unless tere are 200 other allince memebers on Or Run for the dock if a non blue is in system |
Yorinar
Tactical Soldiers Nulli Tertius
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:11:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:[quote=Sessym][quote=Ra Voreen] Incorrect. While previously-created planetary structures remained accessible if your alliance lost sov, you cannot place a command center on a 0.0 planet if your alliance does not hold sov in the system. (Thus, no PI in NPC 0.0).
You can do PI in npc space. YOu can also do it in unclaimed systems. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:11:00 -
[1078] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Some responses to issues in general:
Blinking wallet intel: It's the corp wallet that will increase, not a player's. I don't think your average corp member's wallet icon blinks for corporate account balance changes. To gather the intel, someone with corp wallet access would have to be watching their corp wallet window. Otherwise, it makes perfect sense that you'd see the records of who accessed your CO and when. There's nothing stealthy about "docking up" a hauler at a customs office and loading up. Non-Issue.
Low-sec PI will be hard: Boo-hoo. Join a corp, stay in hisec, or man up and play the game. Low-sec is empire space that empire doesn't bother to police. It's not supposed to be easy afk income.
Prices will go up: Yep, and then more people will get into either hi-sec PI because it's easy and more profitable than before, or they'll start building low-sec COs when they become cost-effective and really reap the profits. The market will find a balance between supply and demand.
You can't change it now, we're already used to the cushy life: Get over it. Ship hit points changed. Nano-nerf happened. Minmatar guns got buffed. Cap ships are continually evolving. The game changes, adapt or die.
But everyone will leave!: This isn't a game-breaking Nex gold ammo issue, it's just CCP moving your cheese. You'll adapt or someone will take your place in the production line when the money is there to be made. Hi-sec is still "safe" if you can't swim in the deep water where the sharks are. Concord will hold your hand there and make it all better.
Nothing to disagree with here... however what about the lack of peripherial elements to the proposed change? Fine? or seems unpolished? |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:19:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:@CCP Nullabor:
Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed?
Build another one?
Quote:We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources.
Migrate back and connect it.
Quote:Those of us in wormholes... we're not running incursions or in FW, so we're completely cut off from the BPCs, fully dependent on entirely different groups of people. We also have a boatload of planets that would all need these things... ten in my hole alone... in order to function properly. Having to come up with either ten BPCs at non-insane prices (or worse, ten of these structures off the market) and build and/or move to position then upgrade... this is going to cause some quite significant hardships.
Heaven forbid you have to buy a bpc off the market or interact with "entirely different groups of people". What are you, space-Amish?
Quote:They definitely need to be much more accessible, especially for folks that simply aren't in a position in any way, shape or form to farm the LP needed for them.
How do you acquire faction ammo? Ice-based POS fuel? Implants? I'm guessing you have to go to the open market for those things too, rather than being able to farm them in your WH.
Got any real concerns? If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:24:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Nothing to disagree with here... however what about the lack of peripherial elements to the proposed change? Fine? or seems unpolished?
Peripheral elements like better control of taxing levels? Better defense opportunities like anchoring a POS or POS-defense mods around it? Increased capacity of the rocket launches? Optionally allowing corporate access to the production?
I think yes on all those.
Like any new feature, it could stand some polish for sure. I think those discussions are more productive than the whining about how it'll never work and the whole game is ruined because PI got interesting finally.
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
|
Lorth Kelser
Phoenix Propulsion Labs Shadow of xXDEATHXx
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:28:00 -
[1081] - Quote
This will just drive most PI into high sec.
They should only do this in null sec and leave low sec alone would help boost low sec as people complain about low sec as well.
Or do it on system sec status say below 0.25 you will have to build your own 0.25 and above will have concord custom office.
This would allow the little guy some risk-reward system into low sec. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
214
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:29:00 -
[1082] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote: Everyone from the owning corp may use the customs office but the inventory inside it, like PI, are stored per player.
What are your reasons for this and are we likely to see a change in the future?
I've never liked the fact that you can't launch your PI material to the customs office while out of system and now that this new mechanic will see us owning the customs office it makes even less sense that we can't do that or at lease grant access to corp mates to allow then to transport materials.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:30:00 -
[1083] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Nothing to disagree with here... however what about the lack of peripherial elements to the proposed change? Fine? or seems unpolished?
Peripheral elements like better control of taxing levels? Better defense opportunities like anchoring a POS or POS-defense mods around it? Increased capacity of the rocket launches? Optionally allowing corporate access to the production? I think yes on all those. Like any new feature, it could stand some polish for sure. I think those discussions are more productive than the whining about how it'll never work and the whole game is ruined because PI got interesting finally.
Agreed... and something I've been saying myself.
What thoughts do you have regarding any searchability functions? Tough shat? or needs some element add even to simply know if there are any POCO's in the system in the first place and which planets they are on given the Remote Sensing skill we already have?
Imo since POCO's are tied to planets they absolutely should show, at least genericly, as a filter on the Planet tab in the MAP.
Thoughts? |
Hundo Kay
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:38:00 -
[1084] - Quote
I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
165
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:47:00 -
[1085] - Quote
Lorth Kelser wrote:This will just drive most PI into high sec.
They should only do this in null sec and leave low sec alone would help boost low sec as people complain about low sec as well.
Or do it on system sec status say below 0.25 you will have to build your own 0.25 and above will have concord custom office.
This would allow the little guy some risk-reward system into low sec.
I'm moving operations back to highsec. Screw this. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:50:00 -
[1086] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources.
Is it no longer fashionable to have your extractors and factories send stuff direct to a launchpad (instead of a storage thingy)? That would solve your command center problem.
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Isabella Thresher wrote:q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player? Everyone from the owning corp may use the customs office but the inventory inside it, like PI, are stored per player.
I could be mis-understanding here, but I think Isabella was asking if there'll be a corp hanger like we have in stations. After all, we were promised changes to make PI more group-friendly when it was launched.
Lorth Kelser wrote:This would allow the little guy some risk-reward system into low sec.
That's going to be available, it'll just require teamwork in many instances. That would be the second M in MMORPG. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:08:00 -
[1087] - Quote
While I don't think the fundamental idea is bad, I think the contradictions associated with it's planned deployment is...
What are the contradictions?
As have been referenced previously is the contradiction associated with 'Shooting at Structures'; the contradiction associated with the Null Sec Development Plan; the contradiction associated with previous PI development (there was already a previous iteration, it was updated and no mention of this was broached?); perceived contradictions associated with what Low Sec is supposed to be in relationship to Null Sec and Hi Sec (Should Supercaps now be allowed in 0.4 too??)
In the time that I have played EVE, I have always had the perception (false or not) that Low Sec is intended to graduate from HiSec to Null Sec; that just like Faction Warfare itself, it is a region that 'can' be used to cultivate growth toward Null Sec and ever increasing player interaction.
My own perceptions are that this is feature itself does not match the gradation between HSec LSec and Null Sec, and instead feels like an imbalanced gradation.
Again the feature is not bad, but how it is to be implemented in Low Sec (with no graduated difference from Null Sec) should be questioned and challenged; if for nothing else than to cause CCP to reassess this lack of gradation and respond, or if they realize there is merit to our objections that the appropriate modifications are made.
I am all for make way for the implementation of DUST 514 elements in EVE... but it should not be done on the backs of EVE pilots.
DUST 514 needs to be designed to make EVE better; not the other way around. |
Circumstantial Evidence
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:13:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom. Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
CCP Omen wrote:Orakkus wrote:do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both? Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=206556#post206556 |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:17:00 -
[1089] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources. Is it no longer fashionable to have your extractors and factories send stuff direct to a launchpad (instead of a storage thingy)? That would solve your command center problem.
The launchpad connects to the Customs office. The customs office is going away. The command center is on the other side of the planet. It's neither feasible nor realistic to expect the PI network to migrate back to the command center where resources were depleted (hence the migration in the first place).
There's also the need to import materials to the planet.
So, combined with the already complicated logistics of wormholes and the fact that, in my hole at least, I need ten of these bad boys... yeah, there are issues. PI will be broken for a considerable amount of time, with no real gain. It'll take forever to recoup the cost of these abominations through a zero tax rate, especially when you consider only the residents of the hole will be doing PI regardless. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:23:00 -
[1090] - Quote
But you can launch stuff from the launchpads, is my point, so it doesn't matter that you're not connected to the command center. What am I missing? As far as importing goes, I can see the issue there. You need to be able to fire supply rockets down to the planet. Or, given the billions of isk you can make living in wormhole space, you could just buy / make the materials and drop your towers. You lose some profit for a few days and then carry on as normal. Even make the cusoms office open to all for a reasonable tax rate and recoup some of the costs. |
|
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:24:00 -
[1091] - Quote
@ CCP Omen and CCP Nullarbor
While I truly like the idea of player owned customs offices, I see a few problems, as other people have already iterated.
High sec customs offices still being owned by CONCORD makes sense, seeing as it's high-sec. The increase in taxes won't matter in the long run, as prices will rise to compensate.
Player owned customs offices (POCOs if you will) in 0.0 space and W-space are excellent ideas. I don't think anyone has come up with a valid argument against those, aside from the small details of access to the POCO and corp storage, at least for wormhole residents.
The main issue that I see, along with many others here, is the fact that low-sec will gain these player owned structures. Tax rates aside, as I see people either keeping taxes at a reasonable level or blowing up the structures completely. 0.0 residents are sure to deny the enemy resources. It's a standard tactic of war. Cut off the supply line, you cut off their life line. I'm sure that many people know that low-sec alliances are almost always associated with some sort of 0.0 sov alliance, providing them resources and soldiers, while getting blue standings, chances to pvp in large fleets, and access to resources otherwise not available to them.
Other issues include stealth camping, or "griefing," as well as being not cost effective, especially when compared to current prices of PI goods. Even with a 60% increase in PI prices, profits would be marginal at best, assuming a public tax rate on low-sec POCOs, what few of them there will be, of around 30-40%. And tax rates will need to be high enough where a corp would recoup their cost in a resonable amount of time, say, 2 months. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:26:00 -
[1092] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources. Is it no longer fashionable to have your extractors and factories send stuff direct to a launchpad (instead of a storage thingy)? That would solve your command center problem.
There seems to be a misunderstanding here....
The issue is that some PI operators have disconnected from their Command Centers which precludes them from being able to launch a rocket payload into space. As such if there is not POCO, then they have only a couple of options:
A) Migrate back to their badly placed Command Center to link with it again but exporting at reduced extraction rates
B) Wipe out the installations and deploy a new Command Center at a more preferable spot (and eat the associated costs) so they can export from planet again at the same resource extraction rates as previously
C) Abandon the colony in favor of a Indy friendly POCO planet (and still eat the associated costs)
Sadly, while a real issue, this should not be taken into consideration regarding development of POCO changes. This is a player choice that can have consequences, and would be no different than if the NPC-CO was camped and your storage is full - you need to get the commodities exported asap... [the only difference in such a scenario is that it is a temporary situation, while POCO's will be permanent]
I always make sure I am connected to my Command Center, just in case... and there have been several times where Pirates have been about that using the NPC-CO would have been suicide; and so I launched a rocket payload instead.
No one can cry to CCP about un-linking from their Command Center. That's a consequential choice that should have no impact on development of this feature. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:28:00 -
[1093] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:But you can launch stuff from the launchpads, is my point, so it doesn't matter that you're not connected to the command center. What am I missing? As far as importing goes, I can see the issue there. You need to be able to fire supply rockets down to the planet. Or, given the billions of isk you can make living in wormhole space, you could just buy / make the materials and drop your towers. You lose some profit for a few days and then carry on as normal. Even make the cusoms office open to all for a reasonable tax rate and recoup some of the costs.
Hmm... I could be worried over a lot less than necessary... I thought you could only rocket things into space from the command centers and launchpads were for connecting to the customs offices... if that's incorrect that's a degree less painful, but it still results with an immediate need for three or four of these things initially with the remainder of the planets being covered shortly after.
Ah, nm... Kassasis cleared it up.
Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:28:00 -
[1094] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:But you can launch stuff from the launchpads, is my point, so it doesn't matter that you're not connected to the command center. What am I missing? As far as importing goes, I can see the issue there. You need to be able to fire supply rockets down to the planet. Or, given the billions of isk you can make living in wormhole space, you could just buy / make the materials and drop your towers. You lose some profit for a few days and then carry on as normal. Even make the cusoms office open to all for a reasonable tax rate and recoup some of the costs.
The launch from the launch pad goes to the customs office. The launch from the command center does not. Also, at least with my PI, not launching my products on time halts all of my production or at LEAST a week. That would be a loss of isk of about 20-30 million, depending on market prices. I'm in agreement that the existing structures should remain until destroyed. You won't even need to have them go into reinforced and you could give them very little ehp to encourage people to blow them up and place their own. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:29:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP".
No drop, the items are just destroyed.
CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:32:00 -
[1096] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". No drop, the items are just destroyed.
For some reason you seem to be very selective with what you're choosing to answer, adeptly avoiding concerns. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:34:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:@ CCP Omen and CCP Nullarbor
While I truly like the idea of player owned customs offices, I see a few problems, as other people have already iterated.
High sec customs offices still being owned by CONCORD makes sense, seeing as it's high-sec. The increase in taxes won't matter in the long run, as prices will rise to compensate.
Player owned customs offices (POCOs if you will) in 0.0 space and W-space are excellent ideas. I don't think anyone has come up with a valid argument against those, aside from the small details of access to the POCO and corp storage, at least for wormhole residents.
The main issue that I see, along with many others here, is the fact that low-sec will gain these player owned structures. Tax rates aside, as I see people either keeping taxes at a reasonable level or blowing up the structures completely. 0.0 residents are sure to deny the enemy resources. It's a standard tactic of war. Cut off the supply line, you cut off their life line. I'm sure that many people know that low-sec alliances are almost always associated with some sort of 0.0 sov alliance, providing them resources and soldiers, while getting blue standings, chances to pvp in large fleets, and access to resources otherwise not available to them.
Other issues include stealth camping, or "griefing," as well as being not cost effective, especially when compared to current prices of PI goods. Even with a 60% increase in PI prices, profits would be marginal at best, assuming a public tax rate on low-sec POCOs, what few of them there will be, of around 30-40%. And tax rates will need to be high enough where a corp would recoup their cost in a resonable amount of time, say, 2 months.
.... this way going well until it just stopped!
Just wanted to point out that there's no conclusion to your well presented post, and instead because it just 'dies' without tying all elements together into a conclusion it probably will simply be ignored.
I advise you draft it again and repost it so I can 'Like" it... |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:34:00 -
[1098] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". No drop, the items are just destroyed.
OK, this is a bit better. No real incentive to blow these up, aside from denying resources to an enemy. This may decrease the amount of these destroyed in far off corners of low-sec, but main PI systems will still receive the weekly roams from enemy alliances looking to deny their enemy resources, but we're still at the point where these low-sec POCOs completely not cost effective. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:38:00 -
[1099] - Quote
Here's another potential problem... why are these now tied to corporations and not invididuals? The problem is, you get kicked from a corp for whatever reason and now you're cut off from your PI. No one should be able to flip a switch and cut you off from the PI you set up yourself with your own isk. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:40:00 -
[1100] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place.
Granted some may deploy their colonies with the original intention of the Command Center also being connected. But let's be honest, most do not. So my point remains.
As to the others that did deploy the Colony as intended, with the Command Center linked (even CCP's official PI youtube guide shows it being connected), I would say they have been over extracting. Which again is a consequential choice.
I take only what I need to produce my commodities as I reprocess them toward Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, and I never have had a extractor location run dry yet that caused me to have to move in such a way that I was forced to disconnect from the Command Center.
So again... consequential choices should not be a design consideration. |
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rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:40:00 -
[1101] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:There seems to be a misunderstanding here....
Thanks for clarifying. It seems to me that they need to make launchpads capable of :shock: launching stuff, then. At least that would give you an option if you don't want to drop customs offices (although I stand by my comment about it not being that much of a hardship for you given your vast potential income).
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:41:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Agreed... and something I've been saying myself.
What thoughts do you have regarding any searchability functions? Tough shat? or needs some element add even to simply know if there are any POCO's in the system in the first place and which planets they are on given the Remote Sensing skill we already have?
Imo since POCO's are tied to planets they absolutely should show, at least genericly, as a filter on the Planet tab in the MAP.
Thoughts?
OH yes, I agree that it would make sense to be able to find out remotely if there was already a CO in place, and what the tax rate would be. I think the justification of "I like the exploration aspect of going and finding out" is just lazy programmer-speak for "It would be pretty hard to implement". :)
I'm fluent in lazy programmer-speak :)
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:42:00 -
[1103] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". No drop, the items are just destroyed. For some reason you seem to be very selective with what you're choosing to answer, adeptly avoiding concerns.
I'm a programmer so sticking with what I know. Rest assured, we have been discussing all of the content in this thread with the design team the last 2 days and they have been taking notes and creating new tasks for us. We are listening.
CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
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Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:43:00 -
[1104] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:But you can launch stuff from the launchpads, is my point, so it doesn't matter that you're not connected to the command center. What am I missing? As far as importing goes, I can see the issue there. You need to be able to fire supply rockets down to the planet. Or, given the billions of isk you can make living in wormhole space, you could just buy / make the materials and drop your towers. You lose some profit for a few days and then carry on as normal. Even make the cusoms office open to all for a reasonable tax rate and recoup some of the costs.
Launching from a command center is not the same as using a CO. You can't launch nearly as much as you can produce launching from a command center.
You can only launch from a command center into orbit.
You can only access the CO from a launchpad in a spaceport. You can not launch into orbit from a spaceport's launchpad.
It is somewhat confusing the terminology they use.
You must have a link from wherever you are extracting from to your command center is. This takes power, and lots of it, especially for long length links.
Logistics are a PITA in a wormhole. You also don't want "all" coming into your wormhole, the idea is to keep others out. PI will not change that dynamic. You use your PI materials for POS fuel and manufacturing in the WH.
You also state that you loose profit for a few days and carry on as normal. I largely agree with that statement, which makes the whole idea behind this PI change, pointless in WH space, and just a pain in the arse to WH dwellers.
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Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:43:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:@ CCP Omen and CCP Nullarbor
While I truly like the idea of player owned customs offices, I see a few problems, as other people have already iterated.
High sec customs offices still being owned by CONCORD makes sense, seeing as it's high-sec. The increase in taxes won't matter in the long run, as prices will rise to compensate.
Player owned customs offices (POCOs if you will) in 0.0 space and W-space are excellent ideas. I don't think anyone has come up with a valid argument against those, aside from the small details of access to the POCO and corp storage, at least for wormhole residents.
The main issue that I see, along with many others here, is the fact that low-sec will gain these player owned structures. Tax rates aside, as I see people either keeping taxes at a reasonable level or blowing up the structures completely. 0.0 residents are sure to deny the enemy resources. It's a standard tactic of war. Cut off the supply line, you cut off their life line. I'm sure that many people know that low-sec alliances are almost always associated with some sort of 0.0 sov alliance, providing them resources and soldiers, while getting blue standings, chances to pvp in large fleets, and access to resources otherwise not available to them.
Other issues include stealth camping, or "griefing," as well as being not cost effective, especially when compared to current prices of PI goods. Even with a 60% increase in PI prices, profits would be marginal at best, assuming a public tax rate on low-sec POCOs, what few of them there will be, of around 30-40%. And tax rates will need to be high enough where a corp would recoup their cost in a resonable amount of time, say, 2 months. .... this way going well until it just stopped! Just wanted to point out that there's no conclusion to your well presented post, and instead because it just 'dies' without tying all elements together into a conclusion it probably will simply be ignored. I advise you draft it again and repost it so I can 'Like" it...
Point taken professor.
On a more serious note, this all leads up to the fact, yes fact, that low-sec POCOs will remain elusive to members of the small, less than 50 members, corps or alliances. Even larger corps/alliances that are industrialists will have a difficult time justifying putting up an undefended structure in hostile space, especially when you consider their fleets mostly consist of hulks and orcas. You may bring up the fact that they can hire mercs to protect them. They wont. Mercs will charge more than what the POCOs are worth, upwards of 100 million or contracts on ship replacement. Even if they don't charge an arm and a leg, no one wants to work for peanuts.
TL;DR? High-sec POCO is good as is, and everyone is glad you're keeping that the same, sans a small tax increase. 0.0 space and W-space POCO is brilliant, especially in wormholes. This will force people to actually fight over decent planets to fuel their POS structures. Low-sec POCO is not the best idea you guys have had. Read the other posts on this thread for more details. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:45:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place.
Granted some may deploy their colonies with the original intention of the Command Center also being connected. But let's be honest, most do not. So my point remains. As to the others that did deploy the Colony as intended, with the Command Center linked (even CCP's official PI youtube guide shows it being connected), I would say they have been over extracting. Which again is a consequential choice. I take only what I need to produce my commodities as I reprocess them toward Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, and I never have had a extractor location run dry yet that caused me to have to move in such a way that I was forced to disconnect from the Command Center. So again... consequential choices should not be a design consideration.
Hmm... you need to step up the PI then. It's hard to imagine it being done so poorly that you can remain on a single place for any great period of time. Max the skills, crank up the output.
I do admit... even with initial deployment I'm not connecting the command center even though everything is right there with it. There's no need to... it's storage is inferior to a launchpad.
Hmm... you know... command centers could use an overhaul. They're just not very... commanding. More of an annoyance. Buff the storage on them and make them mobile and it's win all round. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:47:00 -
[1107] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place.
Granted some may deploy their colonies with the original intention of the Command Center also being connected. But let's be honest, most do not. So my point remains. As to the others that did deploy the Colony as intended, with the Command Center linked (even CCP's official PI youtube guide shows it being connected), I would say they have been over extracting. Which again is a consequential choice. I take only what I need to produce my commodities as I reprocess them toward Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, and I never have had a extractor location run dry yet that caused me to have to move in such a way that I was forced to disconnect from the Command Center. So again... consequential choices should not be a design consideration. Hmm... you need to step up the PI then. It's hard to imagine it being done so poorly that you can remain on a single place for any great period of time. Max the skills, crank up the output. I do admit... even with initial deployment I'm not connecting the command center even though everything is right there with it. There's no need to... it's storage is inferior to a launchpad. Hmm... you know... command centers could use an overhaul. They're just not very... commanding. More of an annoyance. Buff the storage on them and make them mobile and it's win all round.
THIS. Command c=centers should be able to launch a bit more, or more often. Don't make them as good as a launch pad in terms of storage or launch capacity because then no one will use them. Just buff them out a bit. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:49:00 -
[1108] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP".
No drop, the items are just destroyed. For some reason you seem to be very selective with what you're choosing to answer, adeptly avoiding concerns.
No, I suspect that CCP is rethinking this whole idea, and a final implementation has not been determined yet. He is very selective about answering questions that don't have a definitive answer yet. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:52:00 -
[1109] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Here's another potential problem... why are these now tied to corporations and not invididuals? The problem is, you get kicked from a corp for whatever reason and now you're cut off from your PI. No one should be able to flip a switch and cut you off from the PI you set up yourself with your own isk.
Because it discourages player interaction if I have no incentive to seek out others....
So on this point I fundamentally agree with the idea of POCO's - It has even had me thinking about what adaptations I might have to consider...
- Will I have to leave my corp? - Should I have my Market Alt Corp place one? - Can I convince my FW Corp to seriously invest in seeding POCO's in our area?
In this way its a very good feature. However, there is a concensus that is developing in regards to how a POCO system should be applied to Low Sec.
Low Sec has always been a hybrid of HSec and Null Sec, and it should remain so for the most part. A transitional region meant to introduce players to ever increasing player interaction. However as proposed, the addition of POCO's in Low Sec seems to be Null Sec creep into this transitional region; and something deserving of challenge and a good debate.
Because just like we would never see Outposts in Low Sec, why should it suddenly make sense to have a fully destructible structure that is tied to the commodities market (a market I would describe as critical) be placed in player hands?
Because if the argument is that this is fine, then it also will hold true to Outposts, Sov, etc. - that there is no limit to such an argument, and suddenly you are only left with Null Sec and Hi Sec... which would be "Not working as intended" imo.
Instead the POCO system should be hybridized in Low Sec. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:55:00 -
[1110] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote: I'm a programmer so sticking with what I know. Rest assured, we have been discussing all of the content in this thread with the design team the last 2 days and they have been taking notes and creating new tasks for us. We are listening.
can you ask someone of the design team to make a post here, sharing some of the notes they are taking?
thanks Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:56:00 -
[1111] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place.
Granted some may deploy their colonies with the original intention of the Command Center also being connected. But let's be honest, most do not. So my point remains. As to the others that did deploy the Colony as intended, with the Command Center linked (even CCP's official PI youtube guide shows it being connected), I would say they have been over extracting. Which again is a consequential choice. I take only what I need to produce my commodities as I reprocess them toward Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, and I never have had a extractor location run dry yet that caused me to have to move in such a way that I was forced to disconnect from the Command Center. So again... consequential choices should not be a design consideration. Hmm... you need to step up the PI then. It's hard to imagine it being done so poorly that you can remain on a single place for any great period of time. Max the skills, crank up the output. I do admit... even with initial deployment I'm not connecting the command center even though everything is right there with it. There's no need to... it's storage is inferior to a launchpad. Hmm... you know... command centers could use an overhaul. They're just not very... commanding. More of an annoyance. Buff the storage on them and make them mobile and it's win all round.
Having maxed skills, I still am able to retain an equilibrium in extraction vs. production.... I have consistent Tier 4 Advanced Commodities production, so I know I'm not doing it wrong. Just vying for sustainable production is all.
Yes there could be some improvements for annoying PG issues, etc.
But again it doesn't change the fact that CCP should not be asked to develop based on consequential choice considerations. That's all I'm saying. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:59:00 -
[1112] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Here's another potential problem... why are these now tied to corporations and not invididuals? The problem is, you get kicked from a corp for whatever reason and now you're cut off from your PI. No one should be able to flip a switch and cut you off from the PI you set up yourself with your own isk. Because it discourages player interaction if I have no incentive to seek out others.... So on this point I fundamentally agree with the idea of POCO's - It has even had me thinking about what adaptations I might have to consider... - Will I have to leave my corp? - Should I have my Market Alt Corp place one? - Can I convince my FW Corp to seriously invest in seeding POCO's in our area? In this way its a very good feature. However, there is a concensus that is developing in regards to how a POCO system should be applied to Low Sec. Low Sec has always been a hybrid of HSec and Null Sec, and it should remain so for the most part. A transitional region meant to introduce players to ever increasing player interaction. However as proposed, the addition of POCO's in Low Sec seems to be Null Sec creep into this transitional region; and something deserving of challenge and a good debate. Because just like we would never see Outposts in Low Sec, why should it suddenly make sense to have a fully destructible structure that is tied to the commodities market (a market I would describe as critical) be placed in player hands? Because if the argument is that this is fine, then it also will hold true to Outposts, Sov, etc. - that there is no limit to such an argument, and suddenly you are only left with Null Sec and Hi Sec... which would be "Not working as intended" imo. Instead the POCO system should be hybridized in Low Sec.
Agreed. For instance, perhaps CCP could make them conquerable or perhaps tie in standings with the NPC faction that actually holds sovereignty. They still need to make it riskier and more dangerous and possibly more expensive than high-sec PI. I'm sure we;ll debate the merits of what they come up with, as I'm sure they are doing this moment.
Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:01:00 -
[1113] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place.
Granted some may deploy their colonies with the original intention of the Command Center also being connected. But let's be honest, most do not. So my point remains. As to the others that did deploy the Colony as intended, with the Command Center linked (even CCP's official PI youtube guide shows it being connected), I would say they have been over extracting. Which again is a consequential choice. I take only what I need to produce my commodities as I reprocess them toward Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, and I never have had a extractor location run dry yet that caused me to have to move in such a way that I was forced to disconnect from the Command Center. So again... consequential choices should not be a design consideration. Hmm... you need to step up the PI then. It's hard to imagine it being done so poorly that you can remain on a single place for any great period of time. Max the skills, crank up the output. I do admit... even with initial deployment I'm not connecting the command center even though everything is right there with it. There's no need to... it's storage is inferior to a launchpad. Hmm... you know... command centers could use an overhaul. They're just not very... commanding. More of an annoyance. Buff the storage on them and make them mobile and it's win all round. Having maxed skills, I still am able to retain an equilibrium in extraction vs. production.... I have consistent Tier 4 Advanced Commodities production, so I know I'm not doing it wrong. Just vying for sustainable production is all. Yes there could be some improvements for annoying PG issues, etc. But again it doesn't change the fact that CCP should not be asked to develop based on consequential choice considerations. That's all I'm saying.
I wonder then if it's because I use most planets for extraction of P0, export P1 and one planet that converts P1 on up... maybe that explains the greater drainage... Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:06:00 -
[1114] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Here's another potential problem... why are these now tied to corporations and not invididuals? The problem is, you get kicked from a corp for whatever reason and now you're cut off from your PI. No one should be able to flip a switch and cut you off from the PI you set up yourself with your own isk. Because it discourages player interaction if I have no incentive to seek out others.... So on this point I fundamentally agree with the idea of POCO's - It has even had me thinking about what adaptations I might have to consider... - Will I have to leave my corp? - Should I have my Market Alt Corp place one? - Can I convince my FW Corp to seriously invest in seeding POCO's in our area? In this way its a very good feature. However, there is a concensus that is developing in regards to how a POCO system should be applied to Low Sec. Low Sec has always been a hybrid of HSec and Null Sec, and it should remain so for the most part. A transitional region meant to introduce players to ever increasing player interaction. However as proposed, the addition of POCO's in Low Sec seems to be Null Sec creep into this transitional region; and something deserving of challenge and a good debate. Because just like we would never see Outposts in Low Sec, why should it suddenly make sense to have a fully destructible structure that is tied to the commodities market (a market I would describe as critical) be placed in player hands? Because if the argument is that this is fine, then it also will hold true to Outposts, Sov, etc. - that there is no limit to such an argument, and suddenly you are only left with Null Sec and Hi Sec... which would be "Not working as intended" imo. Instead the POCO system should be hybridized in Low Sec. Agreed. For instance, perhaps CCP could make them conquerable or perhaps tie in standings with the NPC faction that actually holds sovereignty. They still need to make it riskier and more dangerous and possibly more expensive than high-sec PI. I'm sure we;ll debate the merits of what they come up with, as I'm sure they are doing this moment.
Simply make POCO's in low sec (only) like Null sec Outposts - you retain all the fundamental design elements without the Null Sec 'creep' into Low Sec - All planets (or let's just say a majority so CCP can save face and have a few fully destructible POCO's in Low Sec) still have Custom's Offices, while player interaction is increased. Need for extraneous peripheral features are reduced or elimnated.
A very diplomatic compromise, where everyone wins!
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:09:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place.
Granted some may deploy their colonies with the original intention of the Command Center also being connected. But let's be honest, most do not. So my point remains. As to the others that did deploy the Colony as intended, with the Command Center linked (even CCP's official PI youtube guide shows it being connected), I would say they have been over extracting. Which again is a consequential choice. I take only what I need to produce my commodities as I reprocess them toward Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, and I never have had a extractor location run dry yet that caused me to have to move in such a way that I was forced to disconnect from the Command Center. So again... consequential choices should not be a design consideration. Hmm... you need to step up the PI then. It's hard to imagine it being done so poorly that you can remain on a single place for any great period of time. Max the skills, crank up the output. I do admit... even with initial deployment I'm not connecting the command center even though everything is right there with it. There's no need to... it's storage is inferior to a launchpad. Hmm... you know... command centers could use an overhaul. They're just not very... commanding. More of an annoyance. Buff the storage on them and make them mobile and it's win all round. Having maxed skills, I still am able to retain an equilibrium in extraction vs. production.... I have consistent Tier 4 Advanced Commodities production, so I know I'm not doing it wrong. Just vying for sustainable production is all. Yes there could be some improvements for annoying PG issues, etc. But again it doesn't change the fact that CCP should not be asked to develop based on consequential choice considerations. That's all I'm saying. I wonder then if it's because I use most planets for extraction of P0, export P1 and one planet that converts P1 on up... maybe that explains the greater drainage...
I do P0 > P2 all on the same planet - I then export and ship all P2 to the Tier 4 production planet for processing into P3 > P4... Sounds like your loading up you supply chain on the front end rather than gradual stair stepped production?
But it is doable if you are in a 0.3 system or under -- very spotty to sustain on planets in 0.4 in my experience.
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:13:00 -
[1116] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:I do P0 > P2 all on the same planet - I then export and ship all P2 to the Tier 4 production planet for processing into P3 > P4... Sounds like your loading up you supply chain on the front end rather than gradual stair stepped production?
But it is doable if you are in a 0.3 system or under -- very spotty to sustain on planets in 0.4 in my experience.
Yep, wormhole... the P1s all go to an industrial planet with some 27 or so processors on it crunching things up the food chain. Works well, full pos fuel production, approx 140 robotics per day and a small recent shift to some of the materials we'll need for the new things.
But yeah, the extraction planets only have the basic processing on them, no second tier. Allows greater suckage of the resources. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:24:00 -
[1117] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:There seems to be a misunderstanding here.... Thanks for clarifying. It seems to me that they need to make launchpads capable of :shock: launching stuff, then. At least that would give you an option if you don't want to drop customs offices (although I stand by my comment about it not being that much of a hardship for you given your vast potential income).
You would think.... but perhaps a more reasonable arguement to present to CCP might be that the Command Center Upgrades skill should have a direct relationship to the m3 launch capability of the rocket. Which in turn would = 2500m3 and solve the Tier 4 Advanced Commodities export problem in a practical and reasonable way.
Because as a pilot of a Sandbox MMO, I should be able to choose how and in what way I engage others in any mechanic intended to increase player interaction. And I should also be able given an option to use my cunning as a player to circumvent my 'intended playmate'.
Linking Command Center Upgrades skill to CC m3 launch capacity would be a brilliant adjustment that would make much of this feature change far easier to swallow voluntarily. As it is not as efficient as launching to a POCO with a greater capacity, and will require daily runs (as regards Tier 4 Adv. Commodities) to the target launch system thereby also increasing player interaction.
This would be a solid argument to present to CCP over what you have proposed imo.
*P.S. It is also feasible to make this a Temperate and Barren Command Center feature only to avert using it on lower m3 commdities to circumvent the improved efficiency of the POCO. Also an increased ISK sink need be applied to such a change so that a PI Colony Operator is not overly incentivized to abstain from POCO use. |
Circumstantial Evidence
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:25:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Increase command center storage and rocket payload to 2,000 m3. That gives the evil pirates 5 chances to get me at the gates while I offload 10,000 m3 from a high tax rate planet. I'd still prefer paying a reasonable tax, to offload my stuff in one trip.
On one hand removing all CO when feature is deployed seems harsh, it "would be nice" if they stayed while players decided which ones they wanted to take for themselves. 1/4 of the hitpoints and no reinforce timer on existing CO's, to make a player driven transition easier to start.
However, not removing CO's gives WH space residents a free ride.
How about releasing the only the blueprints when feature is deployed, to give everyone time to start making POCO's, and moving them into position. WH space residents in particular, need time to move these things due to logistical challenges of WH routes. Remove existing CO's a month later. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:29:00 -
[1119] - Quote
So clearly based on feedback in this thread, part of this change "might be something good!" while other parts very well "might be something bad!".
I am waiting to get a sign from the team that owns this that they see they haven't got this change nearly right yet and to clarify when they will be inflicting this "wonder" on the 'verse?
So "Team Planetary Infarction", are you listening? Will you be open to changing how this will work? When should we expect this?
If they have already answered this sorry to ask something "asked and answered" but I couldn't see that we've had any feedback about our feedback.
Issler |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:31:00 -
[1120] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:rootimus maximus wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:There seems to be a misunderstanding here.... Thanks for clarifying. It seems to me that they need to make launchpads capable of :shock: launching stuff, then. At least that would give you an option if you don't want to drop customs offices (although I stand by my comment about it not being that much of a hardship for you given your vast potential income). You would think.... but perhaps a more reasonable arguement to present to CCP might be that the Command Center Upgrades skill should have a direct relationship to the m3 launch capability of the rocket. Which in turn would = 2500m3 and solve the Tier 4 Advanced Commodities export problem in a practical and reasonable way. Because as a pilot of a Sandbox MMO, I should be able to choose how and in what way I engage others in any mechanic intended to increase player interaction. And I should also be able given an option to use my cunning as a player to circumvent my 'intended playmate'. Linking Command Center Upgrades skill to CC m3 launch capacity would be a brilliant adjustment that would make much of this feature change far easier to swallow voluntarily. As it is not as efficient as launching to a POCO with a greater capacity, and will require daily runs (as regards Tier 4 Adv. Commodities) to the target launch system thereby also increasing player interaction. This would be a solid argument to present to CCP over what you have proposed imo. *P.S. It is also feasible to make this a Temperate and Barren Command Center feature only to avert using it on lower m3 commdities to circumvent the improved efficiency of the POCO. Also an increased ISK sink need be applied to such a change so that a PI Colony Operator is not overly incentivized to abstain from POCO use.
I would really like to know if CCP thinks there is any merit to this idea? |
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:39:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So clearly based on feedback in this thread, part of this change "might be something good!" while other parts very well "might be something bad!".
I am waiting to get a sign from the team that owns this that they see they haven't got this change nearly right yet and to clarify when they will be inflicting this "wonder" on the 'verse?
So "Team Planetary Infarction", are you listening? Will you be open to changing how this will work? When should we expect this?
If they have already answered this sorry to ask something "asked and answered" but I couldn't see that we've had any feedback about our feedback.
Issler
I think a more critical question is whether or not there are any members in Team Pi left to actually alter the code in a timely manner? Or if because of the sudden layoffs, that they will deploy the feature as is, and revise later as needed? (given this is part of the preparation process for DUST 514)
I think the most we can hope for is to push for a implementation of feature link with CC Upgrades skill so each level of the skill increases the m3 CC launch capacity on Temperate and Barren CC installations so that at LVL 5 you have the 2500m3 that is needed to get Tier 4 Adv. Commodities off planet (though highly inefficient)
And no they have not conclusively stated when the feature will be launched but others have pointed to the Winter Expansion in previous posts. |
Nikollai Tesla
Crytec Enterprises SRS.
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 18:50:00 -
[1122] - Quote
1) Its been mentioned that the Tax rate based of some imaginary number will not make stations profitable, in a decent time. To make it more profitable and simple to understand, tax rate should be % of goods taken. If you export 1000 units of rocket fuel, and tax is 15% owner gets 150 units of rocket fuel. If customs is full, then none is taxed.
2) It seems clear that these stations are not ment to be guarded from space. They have no CPU/power grid, because they are meant to be guarded by planetary defenses, which can't be blown up by ships. Sure you could still take out a station with overwhelming forces, but small groups will get harassed by ground stations. This is why you need to hire DUST mercs.
3) Why blow it up if you can steal it? Drop of dust mercs at the station in a boarding action and gain control of it and the taxes.
If you were to explain the complex interactions between PI, custom stations and DUST at one time. The community would have more confidence then partial changes, where we don't get to see the whole picture
|
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 19:02:00 -
[1123] - Quote
I'm all for increasing the amount of m3 you can launch with a rocket (via the command center skill), but it shouldn't come close to being able to compete with the capacity of a customs office. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 19:02:00 -
[1124] - Quote
Nikollai Tesla wrote:1) Its been mentioned that the Tax rate based of some imaginary number...
CCP Omen has mentioned it is based on a benchmark price set internally by CCP. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 19:18:00 -
[1125] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:I'm all for increasing the amount of m3 you can launch with a rocket, but it shouldn't come close to being able to compete with the capacity of a customs office.
Let me explain how this is not a complete way to circumvent the convinience of a POCO.
In Tier 4 production the processor cycles 1x per hour, generating (using Organic Mortar Applicators [OMA] as example) 100m3 - this would most likely be deposited into a Spaceport of 10,000m3.
After 72 hours, you will have 7200m3 worth of OMA's in storage and only one more 24 cycle before the Spaceport will be close to full.
The fact that even at this point you can only remove 2500m3 of OMA via Rocket Payload will require a minimum 'daily' maintenance run to unload the OMA's. And if the gate is camped and you get popped or simply can't risk the ship loss to try and get through you're risking your Tier 4 production 'wasting' due to storage limits.
Further, please notice there is no mention of 'Import' via the Command Center - that should remain exclusively under the POCO as it is currently, to supply the colony with P2 or P3 commodities for processing. <<<
Such a change is only intended to address the volume size of Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, rather than circumvent POCO use.
For P4 Colony Operators, the POCO will always be preferable, but having a rocket payload capacity allows players to adapt to player interaction situations without depriving the market of consistent P4 production. It puts a focus on scanning down Rocket Launches and Indy Pilots trying to get them, and removes a Low Sec Kill Mail farming ability by removing a one way in one way out situation with P4 Commodities.
So while there would be an initial adoption of exclusive rocket payload use, it would diminish as PI operators engage in player interaction and become comfortable with using particular POCO's or setting them up themselves; all the while without giving others a Kill Mail farm due to the "one way in one way out" aspect of the POCO feature as it is currently iterated in as regards P4 commodities.
Lastly, if in the event that a particular Temperate or Barren planet with P4 production is not seeded by anyone with a POCO, it will allow the PI operator (if they haven't done so already before release) the ability to slowly remove their P4 commodity, rather than it becoming a total loss. Further, if a POCO is established but during the course of play it is contested and destroyed and nothing is put in its place, again the PI Operator is able to slowly recover the P4 commodities unless and until another POCO is anchored.
If analyzed, it has merit and should be discussed. |
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 19:28:00 -
[1126] - Quote
2300m3 is not enough. At that rate I would have to export every day to maintain supply to my factory planets. I'm not gonna spend an hour plus a day doing PI. Fork that. 3-5000m3 would be better. Since I currently export 12500, so having a CO/paying tax would be worth it for me. Assuming they were 80% cheaper and not 'exclusive' in low sec ie anyone can use them and pay the tx or not. No outpost/sov DOS bs. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 19:41:00 -
[1127] - Quote
Nikollai Tesla wrote:...
If you were to explain the complex interactions between PI, custom stations and DUST at one time. The community would have more confidence then partial changes, where we don't get to see the whole picture. Assuming that CCP has the entire process, game design and implementation plan already documented and signed off by the project team and executive sponsor(s).
I agree with your point, though.
Having a robust and professionally written back-story regarding this change will help with immersion. At this point, we get "hey guys, here is the change that we are going to implement" (not a bad thing) rather than here is the back story resulting in this changed game play.
@ CCP: In this time of austerity (at least for those laid off) at CCP what should we, as service subscribers, expect to see regarding the level of science fiction content tied to game functionality changes? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 19:43:00 -
[1128] - Quote
Sucks that you could have someone in a corporation go rogue and cut off PI to any people using these structures. PI is something that has always been something you do on your own time and of your own will. It seems really wrong that someone else is being given control over your efficient use of PI with these things.
Could also be a problem if the controlling corp goes belly up and dies. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 19:56:00 -
[1129] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri proposed that command center upgrade skill also upgrade the launch capabilities of the command center. Makes a lot of sense to me.
I like my idea of non-destructible CO's better than the plan proposed by CCP. However, if they go with destructible CO's, on low resource planets, where it doesn't make sense to put up a CO, being able to launch a respectable amount of resources makes alot of sense.
Nikollai Tesla proposed the idea that a percentage of the actual goods be confiscated rather than a tax based on some arbitrary number. This would make the tax rate vary with market prices. If the price of robotics doubles, the ISK (or equivalent) you get from taxes also doubles. If you charge tax based on a arbitrary number, the ISK you receive from taxes is constant.
I think this idea also has merit.
With any of the proposals up to now, once the PCO is setup or is owned, you totally forget about it, unless you need to defend it or rep it. There is nothing to do other than defend or repair it, no other tasks to perform, entirely passive income, which some on this thread complained about.
If I got taxes in the form of hard goods, and not ISK in a wallet, I would need to go to the PCO, pick up the goods, and either use them for my own production of PI goods, or sell them in a market. That gives other players the chance to kill me too and loot whatever my ship drops.
If I didn't pick up my stuff that I got from taxes, and the hanger was full of taxed goods, I would cease collecting taxes.
If the goods in the tax hanger dropped when the PCO was either destroyed or changed ownership, it gives an incentive to both attack the PCO to get the goods, and to defend the PCO to keep the goods. I do think the goods that PI producers on the planet put into the PCO should not change ownership in the event of a PCO changing hands. If they did change hands, people would just keep it in the launchpad until they were ready to pick it up. Another point for changing ownership of the PCO's and not actually destroying them in my opinion.
This does cause some issues with corporate roles, already an issue with people. POS's are bad enough, but add tens of PCO's as well to the administrative burden of a few in corp, and having to be able to fly a hauler and go get the goods from PCO's.
It also causes huge problems of logistics. How do you collect the taxed goods from 20 PCO's if each tax hanger in each PCO is full of (pick a number) 200,000 m3 of PI materials? Would this mean freighters accessing PCO's in low and null sec? Not me, that would be a total disincentive for me to own a PCO at all. A couple trips every day in a deep space transport to haul this crap someplace? Nope, not me and I would think very few. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:08:00 -
[1130] - Quote
I took a moment to re-read CCP Omen's Dev blog, in addition to posts from CCP in this thread, to help refocus the points I've been trying to make:
- The fundemental idea of this feature change is positive
- Current proposed feature deployment in Null Sec and WH Space require no changes in principle.
- Hi Sec NPC Custom's Offices proposed tariff level upon feature deployment is ill concieved. If no cross feature aspects are to be implemented (i.e. skills affecting tariffs in H Sec (only), etc.), then tarif implementation should be graduated and phased in reasonable intervals rather than all at once.
- Low Sec implementation should be considered for redesign into a hybridized system of both H Sec and Null Sec elements, where ownership changes occur, but universal access and/or deployment is maintained. Potentially making them similar to Outposts in Null Sec, where they are attackable but not destructible and simply change ownership instead; thereby allowing Low Sec to retain their Custom's Offices regionally, while still implementing the fundamental purpose of the feature. This may particularly be needed for Temperate and/or Barren planets, allowing room for destructible POCO's to still be deployed at other planets in Low sec.
- Corporate roles should be re-iterated to include a new Custom's Officer to delinate between POS and POCO structures.
- POCO foot prints should be reduced to compenstate for greater player interaction. To elaborate: The footprint radius needs to allow for transports to get in and get out in a way that allows reasonable utilization of their cloaking abilities.
- Temperate and Barren Command Centers should be re-designed to also increase m3 volume of rocket launches commensurate with the Command Center Upgrades skill bonus (i.e. 500m3 per level after Level 2, in addition to the default 500m3) allowing for reasonable export, but not import, of materials - particularly Tier 4 Advanced Commodities. A POCO or potential Hybridized Customs Office would still be required for import to produce Tier 4 Advanced Commodities.
- Searchability functions should be included commensurate with the Remote Sensing ability to obtain generic information via the ingame Star Map as to the presence and/or absence of a POCO in system and potential which planets they are anchored with.
At present, current arguments have distilled into an opposition of current feature changes in Low Sec. And as such it is advisable that CCP Team Pi deliberate over the merits of these arguments; particularly those that are not 'consequential choice' based. |
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:12:00 -
[1131] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:[... Low Sec has always been a hybrid of HSec and Null Sec, and it should remain so for the most part. A transitional region meant to introduce players to ever increasing player interaction. However as proposed, the addition of POCO's in Low Sec seems to be Null Sec creep into this transitional region; and something deserving of challenge and a good debate.
Agree, but...
Quote:Because just like we would never see Outposts in Low Sec, why should it suddenly make sense to have a fully destructible structure that is tied to the commodities market (a market I would describe as critical) be placed in player hands?
Like say, a POS mining moon goo? They're all over lowsec. Their commodities are critical to T2 production.
Quote:Because if the argument is that this is fine, then it also will hold true to Outposts, Sov, etc. - that there is no limit to such an argument, and suddenly you are only left with Null Sec and Hi Sec... which would be "Not working as intended" imo.
Instead the POCO system should be hybridized in Low Sec.
Actually, I think that's the line to draw - sovereignty. In lowsec you can build industrial structures, own corp assets, plunder the resources, but you can't hold sov and build a station.
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:26:00 -
[1132] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:[quote=Kassasis Dakkstromri] Quote:Because just like we would never see Outposts in Low Sec, why should it suddenly make sense to have a fully destructible structure that is tied to the commodities market (a market I would describe as critical) be placed in player hands? Like say, a POS mining moon goo? They're all over lowsec. Their commodities are critical to T2 production. Quote:Because if the argument is that this is fine, then it also will hold true to Outposts, Sov, etc. - that there is no limit to such an argument, and suddenly you are only left with Null Sec and Hi Sec... which would be "Not working as intended" imo.
Instead the POCO system should be hybridized in Low Sec. Actually, I think that's the line to draw - sovereignty. In lowsec you can build industrial structures, own corp assets, plunder the resources, but you can't hold sov and build a station.
Tbh I was thinking exactly about POS's and I have no solid counter argument. However in the context of development history between POS's and Planetary Interface, the similarity is between the Moon miner and the colony. After this the similarities fade away: POS's have shields and many other uses and purposes, of which they were originally designed as a Sov feature.
POCO's on the other hand are not multifunctional, have no expanded shielding that players can warp in under, etc.
So yes 'moon goo' is important, but now that commodities are in the hands of players, I would argue they have a degree of importance over moon resources - if for no other reason than that POS's will not run with out PI Commodities.
As regards where to draw the line... If stations are not player controlled in Low Sec to allow "Universal Access", then why should a non-determinant structure like a Custom's Office for which it's sole purpose was universal access be any different now as regards Low Sec?
I do see your argument, and it makes alot of sense, but I'm very hesitant to take that position, particularly in light of the fact that inorder to be viable DUST 514 needs PI Operators to colonize - the more you restrict the ability to colonize, the more our restrict usage either due to insufficient resource availablity due to over consentration of colony deployment; or inability to efficiently access commoditiy production due to lack of a customs office.
From my point of view, maintaining a graduated design to Low Sec, is more even handed. |
Strike Severasse
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:34:00 -
[1133] - Quote
WOWwwww
So the oldies get another dev add-on. My son just quit Eve since no point playing a game that takes one year to be able to play.
Spending time developing features for the very few oldies and forgetting the < 1 year players means attrition will loose players!
Fix the new player barrier to Null/Low Sec first!!!
I want new and old in Null. Right now its mostly the reckless new being bashed and good players.
Fix the GATES, more entrances so LESS CHOKE POINTS, no GATE ALERTS for info on the other side of the gate issues!
Give everyone choices to make their routes, not blind luck for the newer to fail miserably.
Hey why not do something big even like SMALL HOLDINGS? Its a win win for all if their taxed or something.
Check out Prime Explorations Corp Get some game back in the game. Do some DEDs, Anomolies, Exploration, something fun again! -áSomething with risk again. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
81
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:35:00 -
[1134] - Quote
If you're still reading this CCP, only thing I have to add is I like this planned change (for the most part):
GÇó More niche industry (like building structures) is cool. GÇó More player control via tax rate is cool (though I doubt it will work well as folks will just scorch CO and replace with their own). GÇó More places where fights will/should occur is good. GÇó More BPCs / discounts or exclusive items for FW LP Stores is a good thing, though I'd definitely like CO to have some racial differences (just aesthetic if no time to code this immediately). GÇó More connection to 'their' local space for corporations is a good thing
GÇó I got major concerns on POS fuel costs which this makes worse considering a POS itself is much less than 1 months fuel. Fuel costs need modifying or achieve this with a POS overhaul in general to streamline POS functionality; right now POS are a single structure swiss-army knife of functions, which you really should split into different structures. GÇó I got serious concerns about the HP and shooting static structures in general = boring and such high hp promotes blobbing. GÇó I got no issue with removal of CO from anywhere all at once - I actually think it could occur in high sec too since you're more likely to make isk from taxes there and wardec mechanics should still make it possible for them to be "fun" targets. GÇó I got no issue with rocket launches - they should reward and protect single planet production of P1 and P2. GÇó I have minor concerns regarding P3 and above production and would like you to consider the possibility of allowing multiple command centres on the same planet - putting all our eggs into one basket might be more fun when DUST arrives too.
Cheers! |
Bifordus Maximus
MissoCorp
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:45:00 -
[1135] - Quote
Would'nt it be better to to have the choice of "taking over" OR "blowing it up" the customs office? Like after the reinforcement timer is up you can send in "Militia" or "troops" for some random dice throwing? But I guess that woul have to have some more thought in it as well... Having the only option to blow something up gets a bit boring to me after a while. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:48:00 -
[1136] - Quote
Holy One wrote:2300m3 is not enough. At that rate I would have to export every day to maintain supply to my factory planets. I'm not gonna spend an hour plus a day doing PI. Fork that. 3-5000m3 would be better. Since I currently export 12500, so having a CO/paying tax would be worth it for me. Assuming they were 80% cheaper and not 'exclusive' in low sec ie anyone can use them and pay the tx or not. No outpost/sov DOS bs.
If you get much above 2500 m3, then there is nearly no point in paying the POCO owner, not unless the launches are taxed as a higher rate then even what a 100% POCO tariff would charge you. (Given traditional tax rates for launches, the launch tarif should be about 150% of the maximum POCO tariff.) |
Andy Landen
Exploring Eagles
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:49:00 -
[1137] - Quote
We all know the prices will go up, the taxes will go up, the ability to get product out will go down, cost of control will go up, and the risk of ships will go up. Prices up = good for PI guys, bad for pos guys and indy guys. Demand falls of course. Pos's are retired being unprofitable. Taxes up = good for Control guys, bad for PI guys. There goes PI profit. Product logistics = risky to non-existant, bad for PI guys. Barring any other problem, if product is stuck, it is worthless. Cost of control/ships = high. Bad for PI. Even if the fight for PI is worth it (high prices), the taxes are low, and the logistics is free, the cost of losing ships and buying the PI control center easily and quickly removes all profitability. Let alone the effect on demand for retired POS's with higher fuel prices and for other indy activities.
If CCP can limit the maximum tax rate, prevent PI logistics disruption, and increase the amount of product the colonies can process and extract, this might work OK. Increases the product per colony will actually allow people to care (more ISK) enough to fight over it while helping reduce product cost so that the infrastructure which uses it doesn't collapse. If CCP wants more fighting over PI, increase the 0.0 yield and processing ability while decreasing HS product yield. Don't do anything else. |
Tex Steele
Department of Defence Fatal Ascension
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 20:50:00 -
[1138] - Quote
So some of this is to go along with DUST 514. Interesting. I don't play DUST, don't have a game console, and never will. I play EVE Online. I don't care about DUST or anything to do with it. So why do I care? and why is CCP changing EVEOnline for something to do with DUST?
This seems like a move to push people into big alliances who can afford to run the things in 0.0 and defend them. Maybe a push to punish industrialists and push them to PVP, also. I have only been playing for about 15 months, and I can tell you that I have lost more ships in PVP and to gankers than I care to think about. IN a PVP world, the noobs are at a severe disadvantage to a toon that is 4 or 5 years old. His only chance of survival is either to join some mega corp or not play. I would happily do lots of industrial things which are an important part of the EVE universe - somebody must supply ammo and mods and POS fuel, after all. Because of the constant PVP crap happening, it is extremely difficult to play the game on one's own terms and not the ONE way CCP seems to desire everyone to play.
I do not like this change. I think it will simply cause more problems than it is worth.
IF CCP wants to fix PI, how about fixing that stupid PI ship that looks like a Noctis? It has a command center bay of 4000 m3, and will only hold command centers, which are 2500m3. That math doesn't work - it wastes 1500 m3 of space where nothing else can fit. The other bays are too small to use the ship for running planets in a production line, as well. That was a bust, and could be corrected to make the game a "better experience". I am a programmer in RL, and I see bugs all over the place that they could fix instead.
This change seems to favor only the big mega-alliances and punishes the little guy just trying to enjoy himself. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 21:02:00 -
[1139] - Quote
The reason that this feature change is fundamentally positive and needed, is because colonies need to be able to be contested.
Allowing both EVE and DUST players to contest colony/ planet ownership is in keeping with EVE Online's best design principles.
A design mechanic that condenses individualized Player Colonies to Corporate Owned/ Controlled Custom's Offices is a positive development creating a relational need between PI operator (independent or otherwise) and a given Corporation. And without placing corporations in direct control of colonies - very smart imo.
At present the specific design details are what are at issue, and where they are to be applied, not the fundamentals of the feature itself; because DUST 514, like it or not, is simply the mechanism to allow for the destruction of colonies, and the players it will attract will be the only ones who can make that possible.
Ultimately, it is good for our community that CCP grows and develops as a company... with the input of us, their share holders. Therefore I support DUST 514...
|
Flamehaired Death
The Order Of Viision
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 21:12:00 -
[1140] - Quote
sounds great.
except the part where you wipe out all large scale PI outside hi sec at once.
I think simply marking CONCORD destructible would be better move. Any alliance that wants to own can remove CONCORD offices in a couple days. LOL - any unprotected offices, CONCORD or private, will disappear fast enough in a few months. A key advantage is for players to realize requirements of how to attack or defend a custom office while still protecting crucial POS. LOL - could be huge recruiting drive from null sec.
Consider only PI mines materials and makes the parts for custom offices (plus POS and some T3 mats).
Consider with only hi sec making PI, the prices of PI stuff shoot through the roof (5-100 times now), especially POS fuel. Worse prices make all cargo ships docking at custom offices extremely worth ganking...even in hi sec. Consider ganked cargo is often destroyed. See higher prices and endless cycle of more ganking-price increases. I can see regular small fleet battles becoming a regular hi sec feature.
Plus custom offices will be additional, softer targets for alliances and corps to protect. *** Custom Offices don't seem to have any self-defense weapons*** Targets that by themselves are currently not considered worth losing many ships over, especially if you got POS(es) to protect nearby. Thus only the hard to reach heart of the larger alliances are likely to see a profusion of replacement custom offices in the near future. Border systems will likely prove too vulnerable to multiple diversionary raids to afford constant replacement custom offices. Only the largest WH corps will risk custom offices as destroying custom offices will make for good sized raid fleets willing to leave alt to probe return wh in 24 hours or so.
This seems to be a potential tipping point conflict where the outcomes can easily go several drastically different directions due to entanglement and mutual dependence of several crucial factors.
One of which is where limited orbital PI launches may become the norm for null sec, lo sec and especially smaller WH. And as a simultaneous result, hi sec PI is constantly ganked out of business at shipping time or incurs significant fleet battles for each shipment. And as an eventual result POSes starve for fuel and get ganked out of widespread use. Finally without easily available, widespread POSes, null sec and wh could return to sparse use as mainly for ratting and sleepers.
Of course the other main direction is that everyone cooperates in reestablishing custom offices everywhere before going to full scale war and even then things remain stable. But maybe the GOONs own all PI and are the bosses of EVE -- ROFLMAO (becasue people didn't think they would try the ice embargo thing either a month ago).
Perhaps Custom Offices should at least be given ability to run a handful of ordinary sentry drones as self-defense towers. Won't make any difference versus a fleet but it might provide some initial anti-gank and prevent easy false alarms from passing frigates (assuming you can see drone status). |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1078
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 22:25:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:If you're still reading this CCP...
Yes, still reading! I am also compiling a list of issues and concerns that you voiced in this thread. Really glad to see all the opinions, ideas and deep thoughts presented here, thank you.
CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 22:31:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:We all know the prices will go up, the taxes will go up, the ability to get product out will go down, cost of control will go up, and the risk of ships will go up. Prices up = good for PI guys, bad for pos guys and indy guys. Demand falls of course. Pos's are retired being unprofitable. Taxes up = good for Control guys, bad for PI guys. There goes PI profit. Product logistics = risky to non-existant, bad for PI guys. Barring any other problem, if product is stuck, it is worthless. Cost of control/ships = high. Bad for PI. Even if the fight for PI is worth it (high prices), the taxes are low, and the logistics is free, the cost of losing ships and buying the PI control center easily and quickly removes all profitability. Let alone the effect on demand for retired POS's with higher fuel prices and for other indy activities.
If CCP can limit the maximum tax rate, prevent PI logistics disruption, and increase the amount of product the colonies can process and extract, this might work OK. Increases the product per colony will actually allow people to care (more ISK) enough to fight over it while helping reduce product cost so that the infrastructure which uses it doesn't collapse. If CCP wants more fighting over PI, increase the 0.0 yield and processing ability while decreasing HS product yield. Don't do anything else.
All true but increasing the product per colony just makes it more of a time sink. Haulers don't hold enough to make exporting/importing something I could do in a reasonable amount of time. As much as I enjoy PI/mfg (lol), I don't want to pay money to do tens of hrs of it every week. Frankly, I'd rather join the gym or spend my time sticking needles in my eyes or something ..
Also the risk/isk just doesn't make sense. Missions are risk free. Incursions are more or less risk free. The isk from those is way higher per hr than PI ever will be ..
The whole point of PI is passive/casual income for people who have lives and jobs etc. Whilst I can understand that changing, I don't understand forcing all the very many pre-exhisting entrepreneurs and industrial contributors out of low sec and trying to replace them with, err, nobody. That's just ********. |
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 22:39:00 -
[1143] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:If you're still reading this CCP... Yes, still reading! I am also compiling a list of issues and concerns that you voiced in this thread. Really glad to see all the opinions, ideas and deep thoughts presented here, thank you.
as a mid sized t2 producer(60 concurent t2 build slots, etc etc) i thought id add my view.
ive already started reducing my manufaturing structures, decomissioning 2 large towers, the cost now is not made up by the speed increase of production. im now moving to an station where i can outbuild any of the local compertion and basicly save about 13mil/day on my production costs. the reason why im doing this is very clear to me as it should be to you at ccp, the increased costs of pi in the production chain will stop me bothering with all production soon, if the cost of pi products continues to rise. it simply will not be worth my time. as it currently stands, it would already be better for me to go run incursions and drop 4 of my accounts.(the same plan i have if you move t2 production to 0.0)
i guess i could reduce my production cost and work on the mentality ' the pi products i make myself are free' but pi is boring, this change makes it more boring, yay structures to move build and shoot, cos the game needs more of them right.
pi needs reworking before you do this, a minor routing volume increase is not the rework it needs. please stop trying to apply a bandaid to a mains water leak, it simpley dosnt work, ask teh 20% of your co workers that just got canned due to the short sightedness of ccp's dev's in the past. |
Budsin Adar
kackpappen Pink Fluffy Pussycats
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:05:00 -
[1144] - Quote
Like what is it we have to scrap?? the POS or the planetary stuff?? CCP I hope this can be made clear also I still have no use to see what my ship is doing other than what i know Butif its missiles guns lasers I have no clue even drones showing up on there viewe point or having to reset the station stuff or when undocked is making alot of unhappy campers from others i chat with in local better fix that soon this update screwed it up. Now as to why? Yuour Hamsters died get guinea PIgs lol |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:12:00 -
[1145] - Quote
Well, CCP Phantom, if you're still seeing this, please have them keep in mind initial accessibility of these things, especially in systems where access will be quite difficult, such as wormholes. We'll need ten in our hole, the initial costs will be prohibitive (admit it... the first ones out there will cost a small fortune and be hard to come by) and getting them to the holes will be a massive PITA. We don't have access to Concord or FW LP in here so we're dependent on the "kindness" of others putting the BPCs on the market. Plus, with tens of thousands of customs offices slated to go poof... well, supply will lag significantly behind demand.
Unless, of course, prior to production the Eve universe is initally seeded with these at a decent price... enough to get them out there quickly. As they become established, you can reduce NPC supply and shift over to construction as the means to replenish them.
But the whole 'cold turkey' idea... man, that's brutal and punishing. NOT feeling any love there. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:24:00 -
[1146] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:If you're still reading this CCP... Yes, still reading! I am also compiling a list of issues and concerns that you voiced in this thread. Really glad to see all the opinions, ideas and deep thoughts presented here, thank you.
As EVE Online's resident Economist stated: The EVE Community is the greatest super computer in the world.
I think I can speak for everyone, when I say thank you for responding to us, and being amenable to addressing legitimate concerns and points.
Is there any chance in the near future that we might be updated on what iteration changes of the POCO feature are up for discussion within Team Pi? |
oldmanst4r
oldmanst4r's Corporation
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:26:00 -
[1147] - Quote
Cool, maybe by the time Dust 514 comes out people might actually care about fighting over planets. |
Bertha Jones
Unity Continuum Supernova Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:26:00 -
[1148] - Quote
I understand the idea of POCO in zero security space. Cool.
Can the profits in the low security space be reduced compared to zero security space? This would make setting up POCO for high security players more reachable and encourage movement to low security space. This also would encourage low security players to move to zero security space in search of higher profits.
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Metal mettle
Arklight Project
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:36:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Seems that CCP will do anything to keep players from plexing accounts.
The change will not be used to bring in isk by taxing others. They will be used to create monoply of PI and prevent anyone in the area from having any planets. They will make way more isk by selling that PI at massive cost. This will make POS ownership nearly impossible to all but the largest corps. Then with the loss of so many POSes the economy will go crazy. Less isk for people to buy plex.
WH space, PI becomes impossible, I have seen so many "because i can" actions. Groups of poeple will have just a few ships, and will be able to destroy the customs office. whs links last 24 hours, but bring along a single core scanner, and you get an exit. While you wait, do sites. Then log out, next day, kill the station, They do it cause they can, and they know how much it sets you back. It will cost billions to set up inside whs, so PI then is worthless, unprofitable. Combined with DUST, not only will the customs office be killed, but the colony itself, can be destroyed. More lost isk, less money to buy plex. It will also cost a billion or so (depending on number of planets)to buy, build, and set up, the customs offices. only to have someone destroy them, for the fun of it. Making import impossible, and making it non-profitable.
they already changed PI massivly once. They removed so much profitablity from what it was before. They made extraction control units that take up 2600 power. It does nothing, gives nothing. Then you have to use the extraction heads, taking up more power. Now you can't set up complex chains on one planet. And you can't produce as much as before. And they want to do it again. Its gonna make a basic supply chain of this game, become to incombersome to do. The economy change is gonna upset alot. However, the loss of isk, means if people want to play, they have to pay cash.
Wh space has already lost isk, when they made the sites, harder, drop less, and produce less nano ribbons. Missions are made harder, longer, and drop less profitable items. Making less isk, you now have to pay cash to play.
Only the few that make the materials and BPCs and arrays will make anything from this change. And they are already the ones that run the game, as the few that own all the BPOs. Then, just like hulkageddon, they will start a new game, killing the customs offices, because they can make massive isk selling the items at massive over cost. This makes PI and POSes only more expensive to run. and thus, no plexing accounts.
CCP's plans on AUR were shot down by the players. That was going to give them much more cash, from players buying plex, or make plex way more expensive and more people have to by game time with cash. Now they are doing what they can, to get back to that plan. They have spent so much time programming an avatar creator, and captains quarters, rather then actually working on what the players want. And they have also spent so much time fixing all the issues they create with their changes. This is a space flight sim. Not face book, not a chat room, not a 1st/3rd person shooter. Play WOW, or halo, or join face book, if thats what you want. Otherwise, we want a space flight sim.
Its hard enough to get ahead in this game, damn near impossible when CCP keeps changing the rules. Seems that CCP greed is causing them to change the game, to make it harder to use isk to plex game time. I love this game, and its hard to see so many changes, that upset game flow. Hearing that they want to move ice to low sec, is just one more way of taking isk from us. making POSes to expensive for anyone not in a large corp alliance. And once its all large (super corp) there will be no one left to pick on. And no more, "cause i can" cause no one to pick on. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:53:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Metal mettle wrote: This is a space flight sim.
No you didn't.... |
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rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:55:00 -
[1151] - Quote
Spanking Monkeys wrote:i guess i could reduce my production cost and work on the mentality ' the pi products i make myself are free' but pi is boring, this change makes it more boring, yay structures to move build and shoot, cos the game needs more of them right.
Why not factor in the increased costs when you place your sell orders and make more money? Not that I'm complaining - you giving up means what I produce goes up in value. |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 23:56:00 -
[1152] - Quote
The idea first sounds good but ... is not. Some people should go back to university
Who will be able to put, and defend, POCOs in low and nul sec ? Big blobs will do it easy of course, but small corporations or alliance will have no chance to succeed.
So, after controlling most of non NPC null sec, large alliances will be able to put POCOs were they want and kick smaller one back to high sec ... GREAT ... after this they just have to put 100 % fees to anybody except themselves and they will be able to dictate prices to the market. Ooooooh, small entities having a POS anywhere will be sooooooo happy when they'll have to pay Coolant unit 18,000 ISK
No one needs to have spent years at Harvard to predict that. Anybody who drove a car for more than 10 years can understand what happens when there is a lack of regulation and when fuel production belongs to less companies ... ... dropping competion means rising prices and that's exactly what will happen there.
This will NOT bring more fights or people renting new mercenary corporations to protect their POCOs. This is just a free ISK blank check for big blocks.
So CCP if the purpose is to be kind with them after nerfing their hords of titans and SC just say it , dont talk about gameplay this is hypocrit speech. Else, just remember that who controls resource access controls prices. And dont be surprised if after one or two month you have crowds of people whining for another nerf ...
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Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 00:11:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Red Zaya wrote:And dont be surprised if after one or two month you have crowds of people whining for another nerf ...
... and a few k less subscriptions than before you started. |
Circumstantial Evidence
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 00:13:00 -
[1154] - Quote
POS fuel items have nearly doubled in anticipation and speculation of shortages. Risk will go up, and so will Reward.
Once the new PI overlords establish themselves, I think they will prefer this new AFK isk stream, over locking out the opposition. Perhaps medium gangs and lone super pilots will enjoy tipping over the equivalent of a small POS at each planet in a solar system. But will they come back to finish the job? Reinforce timers are public, and many people like to see a good fight.
Paying a 10x higher tax (for example) to lowsec overlords may seem off-putting with mech parts at 7,000 isk. How about at 21,000? Tax per m3 remains the same. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 00:20:00 -
[1155] - Quote
Red Zaya wrote: dropping competion means rising prices and that's exactly what will happen there....
... This is just a free ISK blank check for big blocks.
A serious concern that arises from CCP Omen's initial posts in this thread is the idea that CCP's approach will be to adjust the internal benchmark price of commodities to compensate for any inflation.
This is a mistake. And should never be a fall back position - it should only ever be a fail safe, to be used in the most necessary of circumstances. And will only lend itself to producing more /tinfoil_hats in the community.
Laissze Faire --- the economy will work so long as your feature fits the economy, not the other way around.
I would argue that the real test of whether or not if the feature can stand on its own, and is ready for release, is the realization that the internal benchmark price of commodities will not need to be adjusted downward to ward off inflationary tendencies...
Otherwise it is not ready for release. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 00:21:00 -
[1156] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Agreed... and something I've been saying myself.
What thoughts do you have regarding any searchability functions? Tough shat? or needs some element add even to simply know if there are any POCO's in the system in the first place and which planets they are on given the Remote Sensing skill we already have?
Imo since POCO's are tied to planets they absolutely should show, at least genericly, as a filter on the Planet tab in the MAP.
Thoughts?
OH yes, I agree that it would make sense to be able to find out remotely if there was already a CO in place, and what the tax rate would be. I think the justification of "I like the exploration aspect of going and finding out" is just lazy programmer-speak for "It would be pretty hard to implement". :) I'm fluent in lazy programmer-speak :)
The side-issue is that if you can see where all the POCOs are, then you have a list of targets to destroy. Since they have no defenses (instead of being setup like a POS tower), being able to find them remotely so easily is going to put big target marks on them.
They *do* need to be visible in the S&I window, and searchable - but I feel that the ownership details need to be hidden, and possibly you are only allowed to see POCOs which you can currently use. That would require spying where you slip someone into the corp/alliance in order to find out where there POCOs are, or you slip into the system and use d-scan to figure out which planets have POCOs and go to them to see who owns what POCO.
|
Tas Nok
Hedion University Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 00:27:00 -
[1157] - Quote
Arra Lith wrote:Players Customs Offices are great, but CCP needs to add some protection against griefing.
Some group just want to screw someone else and decides to mount a gang and kill all COs in region. Few caps or bunch of BS can reinforce all COs in region in few hours (will take around minute per CO). Next day it will be impossible for defenders to defend all of them, so around 50-80% will get killed.
To attack CO it should require attacking side to first deploy their own Gantry to start "siege" working one. Anchoring and onlining time should be like 30 mins total - enough to alert some defenders so we can have battle, and short enough to not make attackers bored. After working Customs Office is destroyed attackers can activate their own, which they used to start sieging process. Or if they want they can unanchor it.
That means griefing will be much harder (but not impossible), but if you want fight for control over planet it will change nothing, as you need your own Customs Office anyway.
Suggestion
1) There is no CO at planet: Anyone can anchor and online Costoms Office Gantry.
2) Once placed and upgraded to Customs Office it goes active to use and invulnerable.
3) To attack CO attackers need to anchor and online their own CO Gantry. It can be attacked immediatelly, and time to online should be short (15-30 mins - just enough to alert defenders so they can organise fleet)
4) When attackers Gantry onlines defenders CO goes vulnerable and can be attacked.
5-a) If attackers CO gets destroyed defenders CO goes back to invulnerable mode. 5-b) If defenders CO gets to 25% shields it goes invulnerable, as well as attackers CO.
6) After reinforce ends and defenders lose their own CO attackers have option to upgrade it from Gantry to working CO (and collect isk from taxes) - it then goes invulnerable (going back to step 2); or they can unanchor their structure, leaving planet without CO (going back to step 1).
--edit-- There still can be only one working CO at same time. If second Gantry is anchored it cannot be accessed from planet - its used only to make active Customs Office vulnerable, (ie by breaking energy link with planet that makes shield inpenetrable).
Kinda surprised this didn't get more attention since it seems like the best solution in this whole thread...
in HS nothing changes in LS still need to bring along a gantry if you wanna blow them up in null same but add a sov check (will be ignored in NPC space) in WH operates the same as LS since there is no sov
once you anchor a gantry to kill the invul on a current office, both are vulnerable, but once the office is dead, you should be able to easily UN-anchor your gantry and go pop the next one if you really are out to remove the current owners.
not sure if this mechanic and the reinforcement timer isn't overkill, but as one who'd like to keep his offices intact I'd like to see both mechanics used.
This puts the CO in the players hands, it increases vulnerability since they can be blown up, but removes the "ohh an undefended target, let's shoot it for lol's" motive
A couple other tidbits I'd like to see answered: * will they generate a KM? I know they won't drop anything, but no KM = no KB padding nonsense * how about a couple of station turrets that are part of the deployment? (exactly like LS stations) enough to deter flybys, but not stop determined folks
Also, the removal of all LS/Null/WH offices on day one now seems to be the chief concern, while I always thought it was game-immersion breaking to have PI in WH ever, this seems like a good kludge, I know the BPC will be available via concord and the FW corps, but that still means that the logistics of getting them out to the corners of 0.0/WH is going to take awhile (weeks-months) depending on market prices. it would be nice to hear your thoughts on this apart from the note that said "we told you the parts needed so you could stock up" response.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 00:32:00 -
[1158] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:War Kitten wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Agreed... and something I've been saying myself.
What thoughts do you have regarding any searchability functions? Tough shat? or needs some element add even to simply know if there are any POCO's in the system in the first place and which planets they are on given the Remote Sensing skill we already have?
Imo since POCO's are tied to planets they absolutely should show, at least genericly, as a filter on the Planet tab in the MAP.
Thoughts?
OH yes, I agree that it would make sense to be able to find out remotely if there was already a CO in place, and what the tax rate would be. I think the justification of "I like the exploration aspect of going and finding out" is just lazy programmer-speak for "It would be pretty hard to implement". :) I'm fluent in lazy programmer-speak :) The side-issue is that if you can see where all the POCOs are, then you have a list of targets to destroy. Since they have no defenses (instead of being setup like a POS tower), being able to find them remotely so easily is going to put big target marks on them. They *do* need to be visible in the S&I window, and searchable - but I feel that the ownership details need to be hidden, and possibly you are only allowed to see POCOs which you can currently use. That would require spying where you slip someone into the corp/alliance in order to find out where there POCOs are, or you slip into the system and use d-scan to figure out which planets have POCOs and go to them to see who owns what POCO.
While I respect your position, I STRONGLY disagree with this...
Primarily because, if ownership information even via direct "Show Info" click is absent, then you exclude the ability of a pilot to potentially seek membership in that corp to conduct their P.I.
Further, even generalizing POCO's from POCO's on advanced planets as being present in system - without numbers or locations is far better than not - And even if it provides a list of targets, then it only lends itself to increased player interaction.
But ultimately, I absolutely disagree with this as EVE has reached a point of complexity where such searchability lends itself to distilling player choice in how they spend their game time. I myself experience this when I might take a day or more just planning and taking steps towards an ingame action; to fly a significant distance just to find nothing is neither intelligent game design nor common sense. We have a Map search function for planets for a reason - or should we regress to scan probes on every planet and give up remote sensing?
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 00:41:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Spanking Monkeys wrote: ive already started reducing my manufaturing structures, decomissioning 2 large towers, the cost now is not made up by the speed increase of production. im now moving to an station where i can outbuild any of the local compertion and basicly save about 13mil/day on my production costs.
Which is something that I think CCP needs to address - currently, to run lab / manuf slots on a POS tower with prices in the 350M/mo range for a large tower, you're looking at a cost of 8000-9500 ISK/hr. Right now, if you have a 60-slot POS tower and are paying 500M ISK/mo, then you have to plan on spending 11,300 per hour on fuel per slot.
NPC slots? Manufacturing slots are 333 ISK/hr and research slots are down in the 1500-3000 ISK/hr range. In order for POS owners to be competitive, the NPCs need to raise their prices - especially for any slot where you pay less then 3000-4000 ISK/hr.
Even with the faster manufacturing / research times on a tower, it's really hard to compete. If the NPC costs were more like 4000-6000 ISK/hr with a 10000 ISK/hr install fee, then it would be more of an even keel. |
Sauraah
Voracious Violence
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 01:46:00 -
[1160] - Quote
Via Shivon wrote:this thread is full of tears *rofl*
this game is a MMO - MASSIVE Multiplayer Online game: You are NOT suppose to play ths game all allone... You SHOULD interact with other ppl, join corps, join allys.... So stop ******* crying because you cant get rich anymore doing PI ALL ALLONE, having a POS ALL ALLONE, you are NOT suppose to...
This is easy for you to say since you are in one of the biggest alliances in EVE. Yes, EVE is an MMO and I totally enjoy hanging out with all my fellow EVE'ers in local. I've been in some large coporations/alliances and I'm taking some time off from that aspect and running my own small PVP corp.
Via Shivon wrote:Just stop crying, be constructive like allot ppl are in this thread and eat what comes or do something different.
PI is not the main part of eve...
It's not the main part of EVE but it's a nice supplement to isk making for buying ships and mods to support PVP.
Okay, so here is some constructive comments. It has already been covered in the forums I'm sure but to re-iterate some of my key concerns:
1. Why will there only be one POCO per planet? A planet is a big place and to only have one POCO gives the biggest alliance in the area a monopoly locking out everyone that is not blue.
2. Did CCP Omen say that people do not like money anymore? I would argue that we like kill mails over money. If I was operating a POCO and was bored and some guy who I gave access to for a tax came into system with a hauler I would know exactly where he is and doing what and I would blow him up and tell him to get lost and collect many tears. I do have my own PI supplement.
3. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea altogether but it's CCP induced unfairness to smaller corps in favor of larger corps/alliances.
4. Without the low sec PI isk supplement or the reduced PI isk from doing high sec PI CCP is encouraging me to buy PLEX to pay for my ships/mods and that's not something I want to do.
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Ryan27996
The Faction of Assault Industry and Logistics
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 01:50:00 -
[1161] - Quote
Cool Feature would to be able to set a price for your allies (i.e Corp, Alliance, Blues) as well as neutrals and reds. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 01:55:00 -
[1162] - Quote
Tas Nok wrote:Arra Lith wrote:
(snip)
Suggestion
1) There is no CO at planet: Anyone can anchor and online Costoms Office Gantry.
2) Once placed and upgraded to Customs Office it goes active to use and invulnerable.
3) To attack CO attackers need to anchor and online their own CO Gantry. It can be attacked immediatelly, and time to online should be short (15-30 mins - just enough to alert defenders so they can organise fleet)
4) When attackers Gantry onlines defenders CO goes vulnerable and can be attacked.
5-a) If attackers CO gets destroyed defenders CO goes back to invulnerable mode. 5-b) If defenders CO gets to 25% shields it goes invulnerable, as well as attackers CO.
6) After reinforce ends and defenders lose their own CO attackers have option to upgrade it from Gantry to working CO (and collect isk from taxes) - it then goes invulnerable (going back to step 2); or they can unanchor their structure, leaving planet without CO (going back to step 1).
--edit-- There still can be only one working CO at same time. If second Gantry is anchored it cannot be accessed from planet - its used only to make active Customs Office vulnerable, (ie by breaking energy link with planet that makes shield inpenetrable).
Kinda surprised this didn't get more attention since it seems like the best solution in this whole thread... in HS nothing changes in LS still need to bring along a gantry if you wanna blow them up in null same but add a sov check (will be ignored in NPC space) in WH operates the same as LS since there is no sov (snip)
Given the goals of increasing player to player interaction and making PI taxable, the fundamental problem is making the taxation profitable enough to be worthwhile, without flipping the economy ass over heels. Any investment has to have a reasonable payback period, otherwise why bother with it or risk the investment since, with the CCP plan presented, the PCO is destroyable.
If the customs office costs 80 mil ISK to make, and takes months to recoop your costs, who would do it? You could invest 80 mil ISK in so many safer ways and have more income that a PCO. What's the incentive to attack it? The opportunity to invest 80mil ISK and wait months for a paybeck? Other than lols, I don't see it happening. PCO's would be something that just isn't used much by players and neither of the initial goals are met.
I really think that any solution must:
1. provide income enough to be worthwhile 2. have incentive to both attack and defend the source of that income 3. not dramatically effect the economy (ie quadrupling the cost of PI materials would be too dramatic) 4. closely related to # 3, but worth mentioning separately, allows PI production to be fairly painless, fairly low income vs other activities. I don't think the goal of this change is to dramatically change PI itself.
The above solution does not do all of those. It's simply a mechanic of installing and fighting over a PCO. It might be the part of a solution, but it's not enough as a whole solution.
At this point, I'm pretty firmly in the camp that having destructible PCO's just won't work the way they want it to. In the absence of numbers that players don't have access to (like how much income is possible from a various planets of various resource levels), making PCO's like outposts (conquerable but not destructible) makes the most sense to me.
If the average life span of a PCO is a month before it gets blown up, and it takes 2 months to earn the initial investment back, how long before people stop putting up PCO's? |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
72
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:03:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Bodega Cat wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:1. WH space - I don't see PI done in WH space with the intention of selling it on the market. It's used for POS fuel and manufacturing in the WH. PI goods made in WH's have no significant effect on the market. PITA to get a CO installed, but once done, business as usual, and no change to income.
2. Null sec - I think, don't know, that much of the PI in null space is intended for the use by the corps/alliances in null sec, also for POS fuel and manufacturing. Certainly more gets to the market than in WH, but I really question how significant it is. Gut feeling is that it's not real significant. I think it discourages ninja PI, since it's pretty much agreed that few would allow non blue to use a CO. It makes low sec more attractive than null sec, since you can't launch all you produce.
3. PCO's in low sec - very poor return on investment, especially given the risk of loss. They are not worth putting up, not worth attacking, and not worth defending if they were. Launch stuff from your command center, haul it to high sec and produce the higher tier stuff on a production planet. If you disagree about the return on investment, do the math.
4. High sec - basically unchanged. Tax rates are currently insignificant, and doubling them doesn't change that much, especially since it's pretty universally agreed that the PI prices will go up.
The stated goal of allowing getting income from CO taxation - don't see how the implementation as described achieves this goal, in any sec status system.
The stated goal of increasing player interaction - in WH and null, don't see much change here from the current system. In high sec, player interaction is irrelevant, I don't see the risk nor reward changing much in high sec. Low sec - since I don't see CO's being put up much, the player interaction goes down. You can't camp a CO that doesn't exist. Not that many people camp CO's currently, never seen a CO camp in months of doing PI. So I think player interaction is either unchanged or decreased depending on the sec status of the system. I agree with you, its funny cause if theirs any goals here to have the efforts of the CO holder to see some monetization rewards in this as a landlord, they could only effectually ever be realized in high sec. In fact, i would even go as far as saying they should allow CO's in high sec to have owners, but the tax rate always stays the same, just the sticker on the CO can be fought and won so someone gets to stick their hand in the cookie jar should they want to. The problem with this feature only ever comes into play if you analyze the controls the CO owner can impose. Take the controls away and just have all CO's have a flat tax and this system might be win.
I disagree!!!!! since my corp lives in a WH and we take about 5Bi worth of electrolytes and precious metals to jita every month. POCOs will be a new challenge to us now, since now we have to defend not only ower POS but also this POCOs...
Also for us it will be a new way tax the corp members... it will be a good tool for the industrial corps... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:09:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:
Also for us it will be a new way tax the corp members... it will be a good tool for the industrial corps...
This is how Corporations become vested in Planetary Interface without them deploying colonies which would... well suck. |
Tas Nok
Hedion University Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:13:00 -
[1165] - Quote
Quote: Given the goals of increasing player to player interaction and making PI taxable, the fundamental problem is making the taxation profitable enough to be worthwhile, without flipping the economy ass over heels. Any investment has to have a reasonable payback period, otherwise why bother with it or risk the investment since, with the CCP plan presented, the PCO is destroyable.
If the customs office costs 80 mil ISK to make, and takes months to recoop your costs, who would do it? You could invest 80 mil ISK in so many safer ways and have more income that a PCO. What's the incentive to attack it? The opportunity to invest 80mil ISK and wait months for a paybeck? Other than lols, I don't see it happening. PCO's would be something that just isn't used much by players and neither of the initial goals are met.
I really think that any solution must:
1. provide income enough to be worthwhile 2. have incentive to both attack and defend the source of that income 3. not dramatically effect the economy (ie quadrupling the cost of PI materials would be too dramatic) 4. closely related to # 3, but worth mentioning separately, allows PI production to be fairly painless, fairly low income vs other activities. I don't think the goal of this change is to dramatically change PI itself.
The above solution does not do all of those. It's simply a mechanic of installing and fighting over a PCO. It might be the part of a solution, but it's not enough as a whole solution.
At this point, I'm pretty firmly in the camp that having destructible PCO's just won't work the way they want it to. In the absence of numbers that players don't have access to (like how much income is possible from a various planets of various resource levels), making PCO's like outposts (conquerable but not destructible) makes the most sense to me.
If the average life span of a PCO is a month before it gets blown up, and it takes 2 months to earn the initial investment back, how long before people stop putting up PCO's?
Good logic but flawed: given that many folks in PI already have established networks on many planets they are going to want to continue to do so especially once prices spike high enough to warrant this additional investment
Recap of my post # 785 I spent 114 mil to get started in PI I spent 65 mil to get re-started once the extractor head changes were made I am looking at a total of roughly 560mil to get started a 3rd time once this happens
I can bear the costs if the prices go high enough, which under the current scheme they surely will
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:15:00 -
[1166] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:
I really think that any solution must:
1. provide income enough to be worthwhile 2. have incentive to both attack and defend the source of that income 3. not dramatically effect the economy (ie quadrupling the cost of PI materials would be too dramatic) 4. closely related to # 3, but worth mentioning separately, allows PI production to be fairly painless, fairly low income vs other activities. I don't think the goal of this change is to dramatically change PI itself.
Colony population and/or Commodity Refinement levels (Temperate planets will obviously generate greater tariff revenue than a Gas Planet will) will be the mechanism to generate worthwhile tariff revenue, not the tariff rate itself. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
72
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:23:00 -
[1167] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". No drop, the items are just destroyed.
Will POCOs gives us kill-mails? it will be shown on killboards? ( Depending on the answer people will hunt them for fun or not ) |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:24:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Via Shivon wrote:this thread is full of tears *rofl*
this game is a MMO - MASSIVE Multiplayer Online game: You are NOT suppose to play ths game all allone... You SHOULD interact with other ppl, join corps, join allys.... So stop ******* crying because you cant get rich anymore doing PI ALL ALLONE, having a POS ALL ALLONE, you are NOT suppose to...
Just stop PI then if its to complicatet, to expensive because of those LOLTAXES or JOIN A CORP OR ALLY ... And nothing is wrong on big blobs...real life is full of big blobs : USA, RUSSIAN, EUROS....its normal
CCP has to fire ppl because of mistakes and PI in is actuall way its fail - SOOOO MUCH ******* AFK ISK coming in the game, every idiot can pay 3 acc with isk from PI... and CCP earns? what?
Just stop crying, be constructive like allot ppl are in this thread and eat what comes or do something different.
PI is not the main part of eve...
Going to post once on this as to not derail the thread that is otherwise pretty constructive in my opinion.
Massive doesn't mean big blobs of people doing the same thing. Massive means massive amounts of people playing at the same time. This would be why there are lots and lots of systems available in the Eve universe.
In a game like Eve, like in real life, it takes lots of different play styles and occupations working on different interests and goals to make the world go around. PI is one of those interests. The big blob you refer too, doesn't interest everyone.
For Eve (or any other game) to be healthy, it must attract a wide range of people, and not those just interested in blobs.
Nothing is wrong with blobs. There is also nothing wrong with small corps or even individual players enjoying the game. There are many activities in Eve that are required to be done for Eve to be Eve, that are not done well by a blob. They are much better done by small groups of people, even individuals. PI is one of those.
Also, since you seem to be confused about what Plexs are and how they work.... People buy plexs from CCP, with real money, not game money. They actually get more money from a plex than they get if someone pays them for game time directly. So lots of ISK coming into the game to buy plexs, is probably a good thing from CCP's perspective.
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Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
72
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:33:00 -
[1169] - Quote
Tex Steele wrote:So some of this is to go along with DUST 514. Interesting. I don't play DUST, don't have a game console, and never will. I play EVE Online. I don't care about DUST or anything to do with it. So why do I care? and why is CCP changing EVEOnline for something to do with DUST?
This seems like a move to push people into big alliances who can afford to run the things in 0.0 and defend them. Maybe a push to punish industrialists and push them to PVP, also. I have only been playing for about 15 months, and I can tell you that I have lost more ships in PVP and to gankers than I care to think about. IN a PVP world, the noobs are at a severe disadvantage to a toon that is 4 or 5 years old. His only chance of survival is either to join some mega corp or not play. I would happily do lots of industrial things which are an important part of the EVE universe - somebody must supply ammo and mods and POS fuel, after all. Because of the constant PVP crap happening, it is extremely difficult to play the game on one's own terms and not the ONE way CCP seems to desire everyone to play.
I do not like this change. I think it will simply cause more problems than it is worth.
IF CCP wants to fix PI, how about fixing that stupid PI ship that looks like a Noctis? It has a command center bay of 4000 m3, and will only hold command centers, which are 2500m3. That math doesn't work - it wastes 1500 m3 of space where nothing else can fit. The other bays are too small to use the ship for running planets in a production line, as well. That was a bust, and could be corrected to make the game a "better experience". I am a programmer in RL, and I see bugs all over the place that they could fix instead.
This change seems to favor only the big mega-alliances and punishes the little guy just trying to enjoy himself.
Yes, that noctis-like ship rely doesn't makes sense at all... if at last it had a 50000m-¦ space for PI products and command centers it would be useful.... until then i keep usin my Iteron III that does the job... |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:37:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:
I really think that any solution must:
1. provide income enough to be worthwhile 2. have incentive to both attack and defend the source of that income 3. not dramatically effect the economy (ie quadrupling the cost of PI materials would be too dramatic) 4. closely related to # 3, but worth mentioning separately, allows PI production to be fairly painless, fairly low income vs other activities. I don't think the goal of this change is to dramatically change PI itself.
Colony population and/or Commodity Refinement levels (Temperate planets will obviously generate greater tariff revenue than a Gas Planet will) will be the mechanism to generate worthwhile tariff revenue, not the tariff rate itself.
Hmm, not sure what you are trying to say here.
Certainly agree that different planets will generate different levels of income based on the resources of that planet.
How much resources being pulled off the planet is the tax base. How much income is generated from the tax base is a function of the tax rate, which is a percentage of the tariff. A high tax rate would cause people to use another planet or use launches to minimize the costs. |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 02:48:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Tas Nok wrote:
Recap of my post # 785 I spent 114 mil to get started in PI I spent 65 mil to get re-started once the extractor head changes were made I am looking at a total of roughly 560mil to get started a 3rd time once this happens
I can bear the costs if the prices go high enough, which under the current scheme they surely will
If you think that spending 114M or 65M is a lot - since even hi-sec PI harvest planets pay off within 2 weeks, then I don't know what you're doing with all of that ISK. Hi-sec PI harvest planets reliably generate 18-24M ISK per month (per planet).
As for the complaint about the 560M for the 3rd time around - get a few other people together and split the costs. |
Iakim Akrelthor
Gradient Electus Matari
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 03:20:00 -
[1172] - Quote
What will happen to my spaceports? Will they dissappear? I currently use them as my primary storage, as actual storage buildings have too little space.
If they do, will the stuff inside it teleport to a station? |
Zeronic
Zero Core Labs United Abominations
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 03:35:00 -
[1173] - Quote
"Oh and one more thing, we have increased the bandwidth on all planetary links by a factor of five! Get those materials flowing!" Source: CCP Omen, on behalf of Team Pi
I look at that on WHY, One they have never done think kind of adjustment to anything else in-game. Quick example is the Survey Scanner, Max Distance on a T2 is 22.5k, an Orca running links can out distance that easy, Rorqual even farther. Did they ever make an adjustment to those when the ships came out. I think the refocus on Eve Online need to be a re-polishing of the game. Start with the biggest things first and stop with this new content that hurts the market. Alliance and Corporation Menus and Roles and Player Own Stations are the two biggest things that need to be fix. I'm not even going to get in to Drones, that need a complete code rebuild. |
Marsan
Production N Destruction INC.
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 04:40:00 -
[1174] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.
Omen if you'd ever spent time in w-space with a WH corp you'd know that the policy of even indy corps is to push out anyone who isn't an ally from your wormhole. The best you can expect from a WH corp is for them to show you the door or let you transit. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 04:56:00 -
[1175] - Quote
Iakim Akrelthor wrote:What will happen to my spaceports? Will they dissappear? I currently use them as my primary storage, as actual storage buildings have too little space.
If they do, will the stuff inside it teleport to a station?
Material stored in the Custom's Office will be ported to a station location - Spaceports are not affected by this feature in any way. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 05:06:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:
I really think that any solution must:
1. provide income enough to be worthwhile 2. have incentive to both attack and defend the source of that income 3. not dramatically effect the economy (ie quadrupling the cost of PI materials would be too dramatic) 4. closely related to # 3, but worth mentioning separately, allows PI production to be fairly painless, fairly low income vs other activities. I don't think the goal of this change is to dramatically change PI itself.
Colony population and/or Commodity Refinement levels (Temperate planets will obviously generate greater tariff revenue than a Gas Planet will) will be the mechanism to generate worthwhile tariff revenue, not the tariff rate itself. Hmm, not sure what you are trying to say here. Certainly agree that different planets will generate different levels of income based on the resources of that planet. How much resources being pulled off the planet is the tax base. How much income is generated from the tax base is a function of the tax rate, which is a percentage of the tariff. A high tax rate would cause people to use another planet or use launches to minimize the costs.
I was attempting to refocus away from the tarif percentage, and instead on the important factors:
First, processing commodities to higher levels will result in higher tariff revenues.
The second point was that the more colonies you have on planet, the greater quantity and frequency of export.
It is these two things that will generate a viable income from POCO's. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 05:23:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: While I respect your position, I STRONGLY disagree with this...
Primarily because, if ownership information even via direct "Show Info" click is absent, then you exclude the ability of a pilot to potentially seek membership in that corp to conduct their P.I.
Further, even generalizing POCO's from POCO's on advanced planets as being present in system - without numbers or locations is far better than not - And even if it provides a list of targets, then it only lends itself to increased player interaction.
But ultimately, I absolutely disagree with this as EVE has reached a point of complexity where such searchability lends itself to distilling player choice in how they spend their game time. I myself experience this when I might take a day or more just planning and taking steps towards an ingame action; to fly a significant distance just to find nothing is neither intelligent game design nor common sense. We have a Map search function for planets for a reason - or should we regress to scan probes on every planet and give up remote sensing?
Fair enough. The issue is more of one where I see POCOs as equivalent to POS assets, which are not listed on the map and which you cannot know the location of unless you have someone in the corporation tell you where POS towers are located. One of the reasons why POS towers survive sometimes is because nobody is motivated enough to scan down every tower in the system. The other reason that POS towers survive is because they can anchor defenses.
With POCOs being easily searched for using the S&I window (assuming that makes it into production), they have neither the anonymity of POS towers on d-scan nor the defenses of a POS tower to fall back on to keep griefers at bay.
Ultimately, I think the solution to the dilemma is going to be that they need to come in multiple sizes (a 20M version, 40M version, and a 80M version) with the same PG/CPU as S/M/L POS towers with some restrictions about what can be anchored around them. Otherwise, they're going to have the lifespan of a flea in lo-sec (even if they don't drop anything, the fact that griefers can easily kill them is going to be incentive enough).
Maybe restrict them so that they cannot anchor any offensive weapons (only ECM, Sensor Damps, Webs and Hardeners). |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 05:57:00 -
[1178] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
I was attempting to refocus away from the tarif percentage, and instead on the important factors:
First, processing commodities to higher levels will result in higher tariff revenues.
The second point was that the more colonies you have on planet, the greater quantity and frequency of export.
It is these two things that will generate a viable income from POCO's.
Ahh, I understand you now.
I agree that processing commodities to higher levels would result in higher revenues. So why not just ship low level commodities to a high sec production planet and pay only a 10% tax (both on import and export)? Based on the best numbers we have, it makes no sense to install a 80 mill ISK PCO and charge anything near a low 10% tax. So get it off planet in either raw material or more likely processed material form.
A few hundred posts in the thread ago, I calculated that it's about 6 times (from memory, exact number may be different) more expensive tax wise to export a unit of robotics, than it is to export all the processed materials to make a unit of robotics. So the obvious incentive is to import low level materials into the lowest tax planet around and manufacture higher level commodities, most likely in high sec.
More colonies on a planet does mean more income, until the planet is depleted of resources. Attracting PI to your planet is good , up to a point, and then your income is limited to the rate the resources are replenished on the planet.
According to those in WH's, it doesn't take many people to deplete a planet, less than 10, but I'm sure it would vary planet to planet. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 06:46:00 -
[1179] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:Will POCOs gives us kill-mails? it will be shown on killboards? ( Depending on the answer people will hunt them for fun or not )
Yes like POSs, POCOs generate kill mails. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
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Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies The 20 Minuters
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:00:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:We all know the prices will go up, the taxes will go up, the ability to get product out will go down, cost of control will go up, and the risk of ships will go up. Prices up = good for PI guys, bad for pos guys and indy guys. Demand falls of course. Pos's are retired being unprofitable. Taxes up = good for Control guys, bad for PI guys. There goes PI profit. Product logistics = risky to non-existant, bad for PI guys. Barring any other problem, if product is stuck, it is worthless. Cost of control/ships = high. Bad for PI. Even if the fight for PI is worth it (high prices), the taxes are low, and the logistics is free, the cost of losing ships and buying the PI control center easily and quickly removes all profitability. Let alone the effect on demand for retired POS's with higher fuel prices and for other indy activities.
If CCP can limit the maximum tax rate, prevent PI logistics disruption, and increase the amount of product the colonies can process and extract, this might work OK. Increases the product per colony will actually allow people to care (more ISK) enough to fight over it while helping reduce product cost so that the infrastructure which uses it doesn't collapse. If CCP wants more fighting over PI, increase the 0.0 yield and processing ability while decreasing HS product yield. Don't do anything else.
Problem with that is that once you push profitability beyond a certain point the powerblocs come in and put their foot down. Again forcing small or specialized industrialists to either give up their independence or go out of business. Which again is already the defacto situation in null and thus little will change.
I really don't think it would help EVE however if powerblocks would start controlling lowsec in the sameway, that won't hurt just industrialists that will also hurt smaller more nomadic pirate entities who by their playstyle bring a unique flavour to lowsec.
|
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Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:05:00 -
[1181] - Quote
Some further thoughts:
Similar to how bounties are delayed up to 15 minutes, I think paid tariffs should be delayed until downtime. That should help remove using it to find free loot pinatas. If you're silly enough to use an enemy customs office near downtime and then log in after downtime, you pretty much deserve to be killed IMO because everyone knows downtime is a key nightmare for various tactics.
DON'T remove customs offices outside of highsec when this goes live. They should be owned by CONCORD (actually, the Secure Commerce Commission and NOT CONCORD - let's get our backstory correct here!!) until players take them over.
IF they are destroyable, then perhaps, like command centers, you should have a small customs office to start with and then pay to upgrade it if it's worth it. Small customs office that you can deploy and all but care about whether or not it gets blown up.
IF they are destroyable, then remove (just like other anchorable stuff) after X amount of time of non-use. I think the standard time is a little long in this case; if you're ignoring your PI for 2+ weeks, then you're obviously not interested in actually using the PI and should let it roll over to someone else. But the timing is something that can be worked out.
IF they are destroyable, there should be a new skill enabled by the CEO (similar to Corporation Management and Ethnic Relations, etc) which allows X number of customs offices per level. That should further help reduce spamming customs offices for free ISK and hoarding planets. Higher level skills with even more allowed customs offices can be entered with a requirement of also training up the corporation management skill tree. Since starbases aren't required for sovereignty any more, I think it's worth considering a similar skillset for those too, further preventing starbase spam in highsec. Both cases should have, in my opinion, charisma as primary
ALSO:: Consider this!!! I don't think ANYONE has brought it up! Player X gathers resources on planet 1, exports to planet 2. Pays export tariff on planet 1, import tariff on planet 2. Player X then produces tier 2 stuff on planet 2, exports to planet 3. Pays export tariff on planet 2, import tariff on planet 3. Player X then produces tier 3 stuff on planet 3, exports to planet 4. Pays export tariff on planet 4, import tariff on planet 4. Player X then produces tier 4 stuff on planet 4. Pays export tariff on planet 4.
At current NPC tariff levels of 5%, that's profitable (net 35% tariff, ouch... there's where production en mass comes in). But if you have corporations setting it to 100%, there's almost zero profit for anyone but the customs-owning corporation. I would say a maximum of 20% tariff. Any higher than that and you're reaching negative returns.
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Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:18:00 -
[1182] - Quote
Internet Knight wrote:
Consider this!!! I don't think ANYONE has brought it up! Player X gathers resources on planet 1, exports to planet 2. Pays export tariff on planet 1, import tariff on planet 2. Player X then produces tier 2 stuff on planet 2, exports to planet 3. Pays export tariff on planet 2, import tariff on planet 3. Player X then produces tier 3 stuff on planet 3, exports to planet 4. Pays export tariff on planet 4, import tariff on planet 4. Player X then produces tier 4 stuff on planet 4. Pays export tariff on planet 4.
At current NPC tariff levels of 5%, that's profitable (net 35% tariff, ouch... there's where production en mass comes in). But if you have corporations setting it to 100%, there's almost zero profit for anyone but the customs-owning corporation. I would say a maximum of 20% tariff. Any higher than that and you're reaching negative returns.
So 1 person would have 4 production planets?
Nah, 5 extraction planets and then 1 production planet. 1 production planet can consume the resources from multiple extraction planets pretty easily.
Pays export taxes on the 5 extraction planets, import on the production planet and then export on the production as well. Saves a ton of import/export taxes on the middle planets in your scenario. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
65
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:26:00 -
[1183] - Quote
Plz for the love of god add a new PI skill for this.
One that limits the number of POCO just like the one that limits the number of plants that you can put comand centers on.
Out side of that all I have to say is omg glad I got out of trying to run POS and switched to just sucking the isk from thoughs that do. |
Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
109
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:36:00 -
[1184] - Quote
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:Problem with that is that once you push profitability beyond a certain point the powerblocs come in and put their foot down. Again forcing small or specialized industrialists to either give up their independence or go out of business. Which again is already the defacto situation in null and thus little will change.
I really don't think it would help EVE however if powerblocks would start controlling lowsec in the sameway, that won't hurt just industrialists that will also hurt smaller more nomadic pirate entities who by their playstyle bring a unique flavour to lowsec.
Good news: power blocks don't care about PI. Even if it became much more profitable, the rank and file pvpers HATE shooting structures, and would not want to go clean out hundreds of undefended structures on a monthly basis so that their industrialists could make a little more money. Sometimes it is hard to get them to come out and reinforce nearby tech moons, never mind some lowsec planet customs office.
Money moons generate money directly for the corp or alliance. PI can't be done on a corp level, so it only generates profit for individuals. Allowing corps to tax PI will let them generate a little income from PI in their own territory, so they might care about defending their own POCOs. Destroying POCOs in NPC space won't generate any income for them, nor will it deny income to any important enemies, so there is no reason for alliance leaders to care about it at all.
NPC PI has no affect on block income. It has no strategic importance. And destroying POCOs will generate no tears, no rage in local, because most of the time there won't be any one there. High sec blue ice is concentrated in a handful of systems which makes it easy to blockade, PI will be done in hundreds of systems and be impossible to blockade. Bored roaming gangs might take a few potshots, but that's it. It is not a strategic target. The threat in NPC space won't be huge power blocks, it will be local pirates.
The best protection would simply be to make them small and cheap, so that lots and lots of people put them up. If they get knocked down, you just put up a new one.
Maybe have more than one size POCO? The large size could be what we've seen already, suitable for big operations and highsec. The small would be suitable for ninja PI guys, and could be something like:
2000m^3 to transport, so you can fit 4-5 of them in a blockade runner. 10,000^3 storage space, the same as a launch pad, so you can't store a ton of stuff in them. 10,000,000 isk, so you can make back your investment in a reasonable time. Lower hit points, so it isn't worth dropping caps, but a small pirate gang can easily take them down with battleships.
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Sashaaa
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:40:00 -
[1185] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Red Zaya wrote:And dont be surprised if after one or two month you have crowds of people whining for another nerf ...
... and a few k less subscriptions than before you started.
2 of my 4 accounts are Indy based.
They will not be renewed if this crap comes in. |
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 08:13:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Tas Nok wrote: Good logic but flawed: given that many folks in PI already have established networks on many planets they are going to want to continue to do so especially once prices spike high enough to warrant this additional investment
Recap of my post # 785 I spent 114 mil to get started in PI I spent 65 mil to get re-started once the extractor head changes were made I am looking at a total of roughly 560mil to get started a 3rd time once this happens
I can bear the costs if the prices go high enough, which under the current scheme they surely will
Higher prices just means higher costs. |
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 08:16:00 -
[1187] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Alx Warlord wrote:Will POCOs gives us kill-mails? it will be shown on killboards? ( Depending on the answer people will hunt them for fun or not ) Yes like POSs, POCOs generate kill mails.
*facepalm |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 08:52:00 -
[1188] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Which is something that I think CCP needs to address - currently, to run lab / manuf slots on a POS tower with prices in the 350M/mo range for a large tower, you're looking at a cost of 8000-9500 ISK/hr. Right now, if you have a 60-slot POS tower and are paying 500M ISK/mo, then you have to plan on spending 11,300 per hour on fuel per slot.
Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 09:01:00 -
[1189] - Quote
Arra Lith wrote: Suggestion
1) There is no CO at planet: Anyone can anchor and online Costoms Office Gantry.
2) Once placed and upgraded to Customs Office it goes active to use and invulnerable.
3) To attack CO attackers need to anchor and online their own CO Gantry. It can be attacked immediatelly, and time to online should be short (15-30 mins - just enough to alert defenders so they can organise fleet)
4) When attackers Gantry onlines defenders CO goes vulnerable and can be attacked.
5-a) If attackers CO gets destroyed defenders CO goes back to invulnerable mode. 5-b) If defenders CO gets to 25% shields it goes invulnerable, as well as attackers CO.
6) After reinforce ends and defenders lose their own CO attackers have option to upgrade it from Gantry to working CO (and collect isk from taxes) - it then goes invulnerable (going back to step 2); or they can unanchor their structure, leaving planet without CO (going back to step 1).
--edit-- There still can be only one working CO at same time. If second Gantry is anchored it cannot be accessed from planet - its used only to make active Customs Office vulnerable, (ie by breaking energy link with planet that makes shield inpenetrable).
I quite like this, but I'd make the defender CO go into reinforce as soon as the attacker CO is online. This saves the attackers some boring structure shooting, and makes more gang styles viable for it.
Then you can take my original suggestion in the thread and give the structures high resists, so the fight after the time becomes something of a capture the flag game. You need to drive off the opposite gang to kill their CO, while remote repping your own so it doesn't get destroyed. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Toshiro GreyHawk
166
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 09:01:00 -
[1190] - Quote
Just one comment on the repeated assertion that this is an MMO and therefore players must be FORCED into playing with other players.
NO.
Remember the sand box bit?
If someone wants to go off and play in there own little corner of the sand box - the game shouldn't be designed to prevent them from doing so.
Obviously there are many things that benefit from a cooperative effort - but - FORCING people to do ANYTHING - is a mistake. They will just leave. You can not after all FORCE them to continue playing.
Now ... besides that - take the next logical step.
Where in the same logic could be applied to matters of scale. You could just as easily say - that small corporations aren't "massive" enough - and that people should be FORCED to all join large corporations.
The POCO issue in Lo Sec is one such example. If you don't have a large corporation - the people that do have them are simply going to force you out of your POCO - simply because they can - so they will.
As it sits right now - a small corporation or an individual - can Ninja PI in Lo Sec. but if they own something down there - that's just sitting around waiting for people to blow it up - especially if it's dependent on only the ships of that corporation to defend it - it will be. At least with a POS you can create one strong enough to take some real effort to destroy it. The only effort required to destroy a POCO is time. So they sit there and BS while they drink beer and use Lasers (no ammunition consumption) to grind away at the target POCO - all the time HOPING the owners will show up and give them a fight.
Thus - small corporations or individuals - simply will not use POCO's. Since most of the people who go down to Lo Sec are NOT industrialists - they're not going to be using them either. Thus - a failure of time and effort spent on adding them to the game.
Now - if they were allowed in Hi Sec - then someone might be able to make some money off of them but mostly not.
All in all this was simply a stupid idea, you know - like New Coke?
They had a test panel too that thought that New Coke was a great idea too ...
. |
|
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 09:11:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:Which is something that I think CCP needs to address - currently, to run lab / manuf slots on a POS tower with prices in the 350M/mo range for a large tower, you're looking at a cost of 8000-9500 ISK/hr. Right now, if you have a 60-slot POS tower and are paying 500M ISK/mo, then you have to plan on spending 11,300 per hour on fuel per slot. Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus.
the 33% dosnt make up for the extra costs and other issues with pos manufature. im looking at around 300k/h at a pos with the set up im using or 30k/h in station. so i can increase margins on the same goods. not have to fartarse about trying to spred all my manufacturing over 12 hangers in space all anchoured within 3km from each (pos's suck ass). i dont have to cram all my stuff need for a set of jobs in a hanger with only 1mil m3 volume, i dont have to deal with 6 jobs ending at this time 5 ending at that, cos in a station i can just spam jobs upto 50/outpost.
the single biggest part of my 7 bil monthly shopping list of materials is robotics now. it accounts for about 600mil. pre pi it was about 70-100mil. soon it will be over 1bil for the same items.
ultimatly this change will most likly just stop me inventing and manufacturing from anything aside bpo's, i know of other manufactures that are in the same frame of mind, ccp is turning this game into more of a job with this than it already is, if pi wasnt already as mind numbing as watching paint dry, its getting worse cos now every few days you gotta go rep your 80mil or lose it. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 09:16:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Toshiro GreyHawk wrote: As it sits right now - a small corporation or an individual - can Ninja PI in Lo Sec. but if they own something down there - that's just sitting around waiting for people to blow it up - especially if it's dependent on only the ships of that corporation to defend it - it will be. At least with a POS you can create one strong enough to take some real effort to destroy it. The only effort required to destroy a POCO is time. So they sit there and BS while they drink beer and use Lasers (no ammunition consumption) to grind away at the target POCO - all the time HOPING the owners will show up and give them a fight.
Thus - small corporations or individuals - simply will not use POCO's. Since most of the people who go down to Lo Sec are NOT industrialists - they're not going to be using them either. Thus - a failure of time and effort spent on adding them to the game.
You keep looking at this wrong. Let's say you are a PVP corp living in lowsec. You have no interest in doing PI yourself. But for a small price you can setup a POCO that will give 100% passive income. And every so often, it will attract the attention of some other entity, and create the rarest thing in eve PVP: a fight in the middle of space, with no gate, station or force field to run back to.
If the price of POCO is right, why wouldn't you do it?
What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Pesadel0
the muppets RED.OverLord
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 09:37:00 -
[1193] - Quote
Sashaaa wrote:Holy One wrote:Red Zaya wrote:And dont be surprised if after one or two month you have crowds of people whining for another nerf ...
... and a few k less subscriptions than before you started. 2 of my 4 accounts are Indy based. They will not be renewed if this crap comes in.
4 of my accounts are PVP focused will renew 3 to kill poco if this comes in. |
Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 10:08:00 -
[1194] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ? We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference? Regards Omen
How will it work in wormholes?
Edit: you have resolved the problem with accessing structure hangars (like a POS), for members of different corporations? Or you have simply copied a piece of the stations hangars code? |
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 10:18:00 -
[1195] - Quote
So to sum up.
As things stand 50% of PI is done in high sec.
After the changes, 90% of PI will be done in highsec but by far fewer people.
A lot of advanced mass production, invention and mfg will simply cease in high and low sec due to prohibitively high set up costs and raw materials.
Everything from pos fuel to heavy missiles is gonna skyrocket. Resulting in more isk in the hands of the few and less pvp/even more risk aversion from the sheeple hordes in high sec.
Nobody in null sec is gonna bother with PI. WH PI will become insanely profitable and be largely risk free.
A lot of 'independant' industrialists will quit PI or move to high sec and downscale their operations ie. accounts.
CCP will lose money. Low sec will have even less occupants, the game will not be enriched, the subscriber base will not be diversified. The blob will grow. Over time, there will be fewer trial conversions as the time:isk required to get involved in any meaningful activity in game gets higher and higher.
Win for the dude who'll re-sub his pvp accounts to shoot POCS tho .. |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies The 20 Minuters
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 10:19:00 -
[1196] - Quote
[edit]I typed this really wrong reply but then it wasn't there when I hit post[/edit]
Fix your forums CCP. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 10:24:00 -
[1197] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:Which is something that I think CCP needs to address - currently, to run lab / manuf slots on a POS tower with prices in the 350M/mo range for a large tower, you're looking at a cost of 8000-9500 ISK/hr. Right now, if you have a 60-slot POS tower and are paying 500M ISK/mo, then you have to plan on spending 11,300 per hour on fuel per slot. Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus.
My PI networks were unnoticeably uneffected by the increase in pipe flow. They were already efficiently set up.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 10:53:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Quote:*Discussion of fuel costs of POS manufacture slots* Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus. My PI networks were unnoticeably uneffected by the increase in pipe flow. They were already efficiently set up.
Your reading comprehension skills are only matched by the clarity of your writing. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Ottman
LoneWolf Mining Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:20:00 -
[1199] - Quote
well just a thought about industrial pilots that do pi and cant use custom office because of whatsoever, is it possible to make a launch of 10 k m-¦ into orbit right away ? it would be rather more sensefull in my opinion that this alternative should be given if those custom offices are getting shot down more often, sorry to say that, only so called pvp pilots will be happy about player custom offices, those who do pi and take part in the needed eve delivery industry should given an alternative option than have to use those player custom offices, tbh i see more disadvantages and raising prices in this "feature" than everything else, and even the pvp pilots will think twice when everything gets even more expensive than now.
i know i know, the "give me your stuff when you leave eve" and "carebears" flaming will come around next corner after this posting of me, but i play eve for some years already and i know that kind of changes like this one will have significant impact, and that for everyone, we talk about pos production, pos fuel and partwise also about t2 production, and now tell me who will not be affected by higher prices in those sectors ? everyone will ofc and it can also mean 2-4 plexes more per year if you buy them from ccp, and that is aiming for your cash in real life, or more time spend with not fun things like earning isk in eve, and less pvp what most of us call fun.
so think twice before you say "yay more targets well done ccp" ...
MfG Ottman |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies The 20 Minuters
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:24:00 -
[1200] - Quote
Basically what I need to hear from the EVE PI team is this;
Why would an independent or smaller non- capital ship corp want to invest in PI in lowsec after the proposed changes? Or infact want to use Customs Offices they don't control at all at tremendously increased risk to the present situation?
Let me put it simply as an industrialist my only concern is the bottom line. A black number telling me my profits. Currently this makes Lowsec PI a good option because despite having to invest 100 million in an expensive hauler or two be able to effectively move stuff with a minimal risk of loosing said stuff the increase in yield over hi-sec is worth the extra risk. I expect to eventually loose a hauler but so far not being an idiot and good preparation means I've only ever lost as single Itty 4.
Under the new situation;
* I need to invest in an expensive structure that I can not defend, and if somebody shoots it I loose weeks if (more likely) not months in profit right there and then. And somebody eventually will shoot it even if I set the tax to 0%. If you really believe people 'will be reasonable' I'm not sure you are playing the same EVE I play. They won't be, never have been tears > everything esle, you run a MMO filled with hardcore griefers that's just the way it is. * I can use a structure put up by somebody else, but by doing so I hand them valuable intel about the times I am active and access their structure, they can use this to destroy my 100 million ship (potentially it's cargo too) or hand this information to somebody else. MASSIVE increase in risk. Basically I just painted "PLEASE GANK ME" on my occator the moment I use somebody else's customs office. * I run the risk of a previously open to me customs office getting closed and loosing my investment in the structures on the planet. * There will be far less offices in space and thereby even without the time stamp issue it becomes easy for pirates to predict where they can catch juicy haulers.
What does this mean? My black number at the bottom line becomes a lot lower and potentially even turns into a red number (the latter option meaning i loose all my RL invested time). Alternatively I train two extra PI alts on my account and move to hisec to compensate for the lower planetary yields and loose RL time in clicking an hauling on those accounts, but not as much invested time as I'd loose having to replace an expensive POCO or Cloaky/Stabby T2 Hauler.
I ask you which of these 2 options do you think an industrialist is more likely to pick? The risk free one with a guaranteed black number at the bottom line. Or the one with massively increased risks that he/she has no guarantee will make more and will potentially loose money?
Not exactly rocket science is it?
Just to be clear I currently run my PI in deep lowsec (5 jumps in) and live there, I'm not risk averse, I am also however not crazy. |
|
Frozen Eddie Johnson
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:26:00 -
[1201] - Quote
Seriously, if this crap goes through, can I get my PI skillpoints refunded on my main and industry alt? PI was touted as being accessible to everyone, and with these changes, unless you are in a large corp/alliance, all of the good planets are going to be locked out.
The dev mentioning high sec PI makes me want to facepalm with a brick; even before doubling the taxes, high sec PI isn't worth the time or horribly clickfesty effort due to the terrible resource concentrations.
This change does NOTHING to improve PI at this point, it is still the same exact (very limited) clickfest; all this does is makes it harder to access for the little guy. |
Isabella Thresher
Fat Kitty Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:36:00 -
[1202] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Isabella Thresher wrote:q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit? Attacking a customs office in lowsec will give you GCC so anyone can shoot you, from the owning corp or otherwise. Isabella Thresher wrote:q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player? Everyone from the owning corp may use the customs office but the inventory inside it, like PI, are stored per player.
q1: ok good. this gives non-industrial corpmates something to shoot in empire. however i still doubt this leaves much room for small corps doing pi in lowsec. the structures will get shot one way or another, just "because they can".
q2: why? is there a specific reason behind this? we would like to share the inventory on a corp level. not gonna happen, ever? |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1078
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:40:00 -
[1203] - Quote
As earlier mentioned, I was working on compiling a list of concerns with the current design of Player-owned Customs Offices (PCO). I am posting this list here, please have a look if I have missed anything important there.
Please note that I compiled this list regardless if I think the concerns are valid or not and especially regardless if those concerns are indeed valid or not. If you perceive something as a serious problem, then it should be in this list. If it is not, please notify me.
Please remember also that most of the people like the idea of more industry options, a more player governed game world with fewer artificial NPC interaction. There are also many people who like specifically the proposed changes. But this is not the topic of this list.
The responsible Dev team is really happy to have all your good and valuable feedback!
- User Interface not good enough
- Not enough flexibility at setting taxes for the different standing levels. Player suggestion here.
- Timestamp of tax collection in corp wallet could be used to collect intel on people doing PI.
- Tax management bad for large entities, necessary to include alliance level also.
- Finding GÇ£suitableGÇ¥ PCOs without going from system to system near impossible.
- Advertising tax rate for PCO and checking for competitors extremely difficult.
Problems during transition period No BPCs available before wipe of the existing Customs Offices, transition becomes very difficult. Disruption of PI due to the transition might become a major problem. Lack of Gantries and PCOs during the transition
Lowsec changes caters only griefing Lowsec will get devastated since every random group can bust PCOs without drawback Risk/Reward in Lowsec is completely wrong, no good enough profit from PI in Lowsec.
Nullsec changes only good for blobs and large groups Shuts out small groups from 0.0 as they canGÇÖt compete with big blobs Large 0.0 alliances will never allow independent small groups (as seen in the past) PCO owners wonGÇÖt allow access of neutrals, this encourages only big blobs Supercap blob heaven shooting up those defenceless structures
Bad effects on other industries PI prices will increase drastically, affecting POS owners heavily, making it more difficult for the small/new people
Wormholes Reinforcement timer in Wormholes too long for roaming gangs to do any serious damage Transition in Wormholes will be especially difficult without prior BPC release Wormhole corporations will lock out everyone else, no Ninja-PI possible
Pricelevels are off, PCOs will be unprofitable PCOs will be unprofitable and not worth the invested time and especially ISK Income from PCOs will be too low to justify the build costs and risk deploying them Taxrate will be either near 0 or near 100 Taxes in Highsec for P4 products too high
Worries about general mechanics Only one PCO per planet is not good enough and hinders competition. Too big changes with not enough thoughts being put into the resulting effects on the sandbox as whole Defenceless PCOs are bad and encourage random griefing and no GÇÿconstructiveGÇÖ destruction Transport rocket from player surface is not large enough to prevent being locked out prom planets P4 producers are especially hit hard when no PCO is around, rocket wonGÇÖt help here
Change of playstyle to more blobbing and griefing, hurting small people Encourages blobbing Discourages small gang warfare Hurts the small people most, benefits large blobs most Encourages griefing a lot as there is no risk in attacking PCOs Easy griefing PCOs discourages constructive gameplay Giving away control to people who do not really care about it GÇô heavy grief play results. Lowsec/Nullsec exclusively for corps and alliances only now More boring structure shooting and grinding Extremely asymmetric , catering to the attackers and griefers Forces people into corporations if they want to do PCO, big change of playstyle
Bad for casual gameplay Hurts the casual player since they normally wonGÇÖt get the required corp roles to deploy PCOs PI changes from low risk, low income to high risk, very boring, medium income Why roles at all for POCs? That only hurts casual games without roles
Details of the structures Size of the gantry is bad, it doesnGÇÖt fit into all racial blockade runners. Either make it small enough to fit into all blockade runners or large enough that it doesnGÇÖt fit into any runner
List updates marked in italics. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:46:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote: * I need to invest in an expensive structure that I can not defend, and if somebody shoots it I loose weeks if (more likely) not months in profit right there and then. And somebody eventually will shoot it even if I set the tax to 0%. If you really believe people 'will be reasonable' I'm not sure you are playing the same EVE I play. They won't be, never have been tears > everything esle, you run a MMO filled with hardcore griefers that's just the way it is. * snip * * I run the risk of a previously open to me customs office getting closed and loosing my investment in the structures on the planet.
The more I think about it, the more I think you should not be allowed to deny access to your POCO to other people. Charge different rates on different standings, sure. But not close it down completely.
Force people to fight over the tax income, not the planets themselves. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 12:05:00 -
[1205] - Quote
I see lots of people saying the 0.0 POCO's are a great idea, I'm presuming these people either live in 0.0 as part of a sov holding Alliance or have never been to 0.0 so don't care.
While I agree that if you hold sov you should be able to "own" your Customs offices I also think that in systems where no sov is held having 1 POCO at a planet basically means that alliance holds sov on that planet.
Also, NPC 0.0 should not have planets "owned" by anyone alliance/corp/player as they are already owned.
I've done my share of ranting on the subject, now for a constructive idea.
Keep all the current CO's and make them conquerable ( mentioned already by someone ) but only if you hold sov.
If you do not hold sov, so that's low and npc 0.0, then you have to rent an office using the same mechanics for office renting that's already in place. The rental price will go up and down depending on popularity of that planet eventually reaching a balance.
the CO's should remain undockable but have a Corp hangar like the stations do!
this way everybody gets to have their cake without any negative implications to PI production.
I'm guessing this is far to simple for CCP and lots of ppl with big ships are going to flame because they can't blow up ppl with smaller ship's stuff!!
PS, @ War Kitten.......Do you work for CCP undercover, you seem to be answering everybody's questions for them and unless you work for them you know as much as we do, so not much! |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
227
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 12:16:00 -
[1206] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:As earlier mentioned, I was working on compiling a list of concerns with the current design of Player-owned Customs Offices. I am posting this list here, please have a look if I have missed anything important there.
I think it has been mentioned elsewhere and I think should be included for consideration:
How does a player 'find' a suitable POCO to work under?
There are various options - perhaps through the corporate information interface (corp A runs the following POCOs and their tax rates are....), a map or system information panel or through remote scanning of a planet.
These considerations are important because players will want to know, potentially in advance, what PI availability is around them and what the competition might entail. Equally it has ramifications in terms of conflict - how easy would it be to 'find' a corps full POCO set up and raise it to the ground: is that a good, or a bad thing?
There's a balance to be achieved within providing that information and a challenge in how it is communicated through the UI.
C.
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 12:51:00 -
[1207] - Quote
Holy One wrote:So to sum up. As things stand 50% of PI is done in high sec. After the changes, 90% of PI will be done in highsec but by far fewer people. A lot of advanced mass production, invention and mfg will simply cease in high and low sec due to prohibitively high set up costs and raw materials. Everything from pos fuel to heavy missiles is gonna skyrocket. Resulting in more isk in the hands of the few and less pvp/even more risk aversion from the sheeple hordes in high sec. Nobody in null sec is gonna bother with PI. WH PI will become insanely profitable and be largely risk free. A lot of 'independant' industrialists will quit PI or move to high sec and downscale their operations ie. accounts. CCP will lose money. Low sec will have even less occupants, the game will not be enriched, the subscriber base will not be diversified. The blob will grow. Over time, there will be fewer trial conversions as the time:isk required to get involved in any meaningful activity in game gets higher and higher. Win for the dude who'll re-sub his pvp accounts to shoot POCS tho ..
Don't forget the dogs and cats sleeping together.
Say hi to Harold Camping for me today.
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 12:52:00 -
[1208] - Quote
There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.
PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".
If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc Yulai Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 12:58:00 -
[1209] - Quote
when can we expect this to be implemented? |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:00:00 -
[1210] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.
PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".
If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be.
Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center... Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
|
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:10:00 -
[1211] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:I see lots of people saying the 0.0 POCO's are a great idea, I'm presuming these people either live in 0.0 as part of a sov holding Alliance or have never been to 0.0 so don't care.
While I agree that if you hold sov you should be able to "own" your Customs offices I also think that in systems where no sov is held having 1 POCO at a planet basically means that alliance holds sov on that planet.
Also, NPC 0.0 should not have planets "owned" by anyone alliance/corp/player as they are already owned.
I've done my share of ranting on the subject, now for a constructive idea.
Keep all the current CO's and make them conquerable ( mentioned already by someone ) but only if you hold sov.
If you do not hold sov, so that's low and npc 0.0, then you have to rent an office using the same mechanics for office renting that's already in place. The rental price will go up and down depending on popularity of that planet eventually reaching a balance.
the CO's should remain undockable but have a Corp hangar like the stations do!
this way everybody gets to have their cake without any negative implications to PI production.
I'm guessing this is far to simple for CCP and lots of ppl with big ships are going to flame because they can't blow up ppl with smaller ship's stuff!!
PS, @ War Kitten.......Do you work for CCP undercover, you seem to be answering everybody's questions for them and unless you work for them you know as much as we do, so not much!
Seeing as this mechanic is supposed to tie in with DUST 514, this makes obvious sense in 0.0 space. NPC 0.0 space is no exception, as the sov holding alliances almost always have "control" of most of those regions anyway, at least I know this is certain in Stain, The Outer Ring, Venal, and the Great Wildlands. As for the POCO being fully destructible, 0.0 space is fine for it. It gives the sov holding alliances something to fight for and, to be honest, that's what makes up most of 0.0 space anyhow. If you're in 0.0 space and not in NPC space, odds are you're a "pet" that will have good standings with the sov holding alliance in question, so the tax rates on the POCOs that will be anchored will be ridiculously low. people don't want to charge their allies an arm and a leg for something they are getting very little return on anyhow.
As for low-sec, the idea of conquerable POCOs is excellent, as it doesn't block anyone from using the POCO, just the tax rate and who the taxes go to. If CCP does this in LOW-SEC ONLY, there would be a great many less concerns with this new mechanic. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:13:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:I see lots of people saying the 0.0 POCO's are a great idea, I'm presuming these people either live in 0.0 as part of a sov holding Alliance or have never been to 0.0 so don't care.
While I agree that if you hold sov you should be able to "own" your Customs offices I also think that in systems where no sov is held having 1 POCO at a planet basically means that alliance holds sov on that planet.
Also, NPC 0.0 should not have planets "owned" by anyone alliance/corp/player as they are already owned.
I've done my share of ranting on the subject, now for a constructive idea.
Keep all the current CO's and make them conquerable ( mentioned already by someone ) but only if you hold sov.
If you do not hold sov, so that's low and npc 0.0, then you have to rent an office using the same mechanics for office renting that's already in place. The rental price will go up and down depending on popularity of that planet eventually reaching a balance.
the CO's should remain undockable but have a Corp hangar like the stations do!
this way everybody gets to have their cake without any negative implications to PI production.
I'm guessing this is far to simple for CCP and lots of ppl with big ships are going to flame because they can't blow up ppl with smaller ship's stuff!!
PS, @ War Kitten.......Do you work for CCP undercover, you seem to be answering everybody's questions for them and unless you work for them you know as much as we do, so not much!
CCP War Kitten - that has a cool ring to it :)
Sadly no, I just play the game quite thoroughly and am familiar with a lot of the mechanics of it. Many of the people raging in this thread don't seem to be as familiar.
IIRC, to even place a PI settlement in sov 0.0, your alliance has to hold sov already, or have nobody holding sov there. If you sneak a settlement in under those rules and the sov changes later, you still keep your settlement. (But are subject to the potential new CO owners if the new changes go in effect - this is good).
I do like the idea of conquerable CO though - regardless of who has sov in the space. Not all takeovers have to be destructive. If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:13:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.
PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".
If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be. Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center...
Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Lord Timelord
GETCO Black Thorne Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:21:00 -
[1214] - Quote
Once again... adding MORE logistics (to small corps) to the game than is needed. In my opinion this will: - make all PI Material Costs Skyrocket - make it much harder for small corporations to maintain a stockpile of PI Materials - cause an endless amount of griefing by larger corps (with current EHP, these structures could be reinforced with 6 battleships in just a few minutes. The smaller corps will be endlessly remote repping these structures with logistics ships every few days.
As a 7 1/2 year EVE Veteran that likes industry... CCP is really ticking me off on their 'one step ahead and five steps back' approach to how they are running their game 'improvements'. I suggest the following changes to your proposal:
Empire CO - Double the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD) Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD) Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)
Do the above and the 'small guys' will still be able to have some fun in low-sec. Avoid my advice at the risk of loosing many subscriptions (yet again).
LISTEN to your Customers CCP! |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:28:00 -
[1215] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.
Yes, we understand you refuse to see past the other options available to you:
1) Use a high-sec factory for your imports. 2) Find a less populous lowsec area to do your imports. (Lowsec is pretty empty if you get past the first 5 systems in) 3) Negotiate with the residents to use thier CO and planet for imports. 4) Join a larger corporation with similar interests.
Just because you want to play solo does not mean every single aspect of every single feature should cater to your play style.
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
123
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:29:00 -
[1216] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:
- Wormholes
- Reinforcement timer in Wormholes too long for roaming gangs to do any serious damage
- Transition in Wormholes will be especially difficult without prior BPC release
Bad for casual gameplay Hurts the casual player since they normally wonGÇÖt get the required corp roles to deploy PCOs PI changes from low risk, low income to high risk, very boring, medium income Why roles at all for POCs? That only hurts casual games without roles
Regarding wormholes you forgot to add that WH corporation will lock out any neutral non-corp player from the planets and wh in general just like 0.0 does, this is a very established fact.
The highlighted section. How do you go from low risk/low income to suddenly medium income for the same setup? I think there is an assumption here of price inflation that might not pan out as well as you think. However, in your claim of increased income you fail to take into consideration the POCO taxes tpaid + cost of the POCO to deploy + extremely high likelihood of destruction thus the cost of defense. Both play styles continue to be very boring since you are not changing PI interaction at all, only the PO. However instead of starting PI with the cost of the command centers and maybe supporting cover to bring them to low/null you now start PI extremely in the red. Cost of the command center, cost of the POCO, cost of the corporation creation if you are going to do it solo, cost of defense of said POCO when it comes under attack, potential cost of removing unfriendly POCO to access a planet, if friendly POCO the taxes paid. These are all factors for net income, you cannot say gross income will go up because product prices go up.
Also missing from the list is the individual capsuleer. They MUST become a member of a corporation or form one to launch a POCO. Therefore you are forcing players to move from their current play style by the corporation requirement. |
Paski
Alchemy Enterprises Corporation
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:37:00 -
[1217] - Quote
Lord Timelord wrote:
Do the above and the 'small guys' will still be able to have some fun in low-sec. Avoid my advice at the risk of loosing many subscriptions (yet again).
maybe you won't lose many but the players you do will be long term players with multiple accounts, many of whom have been around a while and who like doing stuff in low sec for a bit of excitement, who don't want to be part of a big corp/alliance yet are not prepared to risk wasting their time (don't mind risking a ship) having mindless greifer gangs (which like living in lowsec) disrupte and hold chokepoints over their systems, I don't mind risking isk/ships, but I am not going to waste my time |
Au' Tena
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:38:00 -
[1218] - Quote
as high-seccer all i read is DOUBLE tax rate and POSSIBLE higher PI prices.
oh man, i just cant wait ...best idea ever ...
it might increase prices for POS fuels, it however does NOT do anything else for the other things that can be manufactured with PI. yet u do get all hyped up about these sov change possibilities for low an nullsec.
perhaps it might be a better idea broaden your focus instead of spending too much time and energy in specific details.
props for ccp phantom to summon things up, yes please let them make the interface more logical. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:45:00 -
[1219] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.
PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".
If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be. Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center... Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.
I don't think you read my entire post. Most people have High-sec factory planets where P2 products and up are made. This will still be available, as the customs offices in high sec will remain, ie you can still import/export in high-sec.
Also, I don't think there was ever a plan to be able to deny access to a functioning POCO depending on standing. I beleive the only way to do that would be to reinforce it constantly, which is tiresome and a logistical nightmare. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:55:00 -
[1220] - Quote
@ CCP Phantom
I see conquerable POCOs in LOW-SEC solving many of the issues you have listed. Greifing will remain the same, that is, non-existent. "Boring" structure grinding could be solved by making them conquerable, but decreasing it's hitpoints. Denial of resources wouldn't happen, as the structure won't enter reinforced mode, prevent people from importing/exporting goods. Overall, this will still create new battlegrounds and will still very much remain desirable to conquer. This will also make ownership available to smaller corps who would only need to conquer a POCO, instead of building one, hence getting rid of the cost efficiency problems.
As for 0.0 and WH space, the issues brought up are very small or non issues. Almost everyone in 0.0 have some sort of standings with the major sov holding alliances and, if they don't, moving their PI production to low-sec would not be unfeasible, as the profits from decent low-sec planets are not much less than 0.0 planets. Not to mention the aforementioned ability for smaller groups of people (15-20) to be able to conquer low-sec POCOs, especially i they have fewer hitpoints than the fully destructible, player made versions. You could even give them different looks to keep up with the division of conquerable and destructible (gives your design team more work. lol).
Transition issues could be easily taken care of if you were to remove the customs offices from 0.0 and W-space a week LATER than you release the BPCs for them. This should give people more than enough time in order gain the appropriate amount of resources to make their own. I realize that this is somewhat of a logistical nightmare on your end and my include additional downtime as well as a possible second patch, but this would solve that issue. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
|
Vanessa Vansen
Cybermana
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 13:56:00 -
[1221] - Quote
I don't know what to think about it, will see if it turns out good or bad. But I'm kind of surprised to see a feature not even mentioned in the winter expansion dev blog (more negative than positive!)
But I do have some input:
Why should concord run the customs offices? Let the space holding NPC faction run the office and let the faction standing change the ratio of the tax
And a question: When are you going to move the "reinforcement feature" to POS? (just upgrade the Strontium-hold of a POS to house 46 hours, for those lucky guys that get their POS in reinforced just after their timeframe ended) |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:03:00 -
[1222] - Quote
Vanessa Vansen wrote:I don't know what to think about it, will see if it turns out good or bad. But I'm kind of surprised to see a feature not even mentioned in the winter expansion dev blog (more negative than positive!) But I do have some input: Why should concord run the customs offices? Let the space holding NPC faction run the office and let the faction standing change the ratio of the tax And a question: When are you going to move the "reinforcement feature" to POS? (just upgrade the Strontium-hold of a POS to house 46 hours, for those lucky guys that get their POS in reinforced just after their timeframe ended)
The standings point you bring up is a good one, however, not necessary to the mechanic of how these will effect game play, at least, not in a major way.
As for the reinforcement feature you mentioned, this is because the POCOs have no anchor-able defenses, and the player set timer allows the owner to show up during their prime time in order to RR the structure or fight off the offenders. A large POS, as it is, holds well over 36 hours of strontium (at the moment, my towers have anywhere from 1 day 12 hours to 1 day 17 hours of strontium fuel), which is plenty of time to get a fleet together in order to defend it. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:13:00 -
[1223] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote: A few hundred posts in the thread ago, I calculated that it's about 6 times (from memory, exact number may be different) more expensive tax wise to export a unit of robotics, than it is to export all the processed materials to make a unit of robotics. So the obvious incentive is to import low level materials into the lowest tax planet around and manufacture higher level commodities, most likely in high sec.
That's an artifact of the already existing issue where tax rates on the different tiers have too much of a variance.
- Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate). - P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate - P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate - P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate - P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate
So under the existing tariff schedule, P0 and P4 (and P3) are a lot more sensitive to tariff rate changes then the P1/P2 because they pay a higher percentage of their value in taxes then the other tiers. Basically, the P1/P2 tariffs are about 5x too low when compared to the others and P4 tariffs are about 2x too large.
Smoothing that out prior to release would help POCOs on planets used for P1 harvesting to have a far better payback period (5x shorter if the base tariff is raised 5x). And the P2 factory worlds would end up on an even footing with the P3 factory worlds.
On the more controversial side - I think hi-sec, NPC-owned, POCOs need to charge a lot more then the proposed 10% tariff rate (50-75% tariff would not be out of line). The 10% tariff rate is too low and makes lo-sec or NPC null-sec POCOs unable to compete at all economically. As you point out, why take the risk with anything higher then P2 in lo-sec when you can just pay a 10% tariff in hi-sec?
But if hi-sec has higher tariffs, then there need to be (a) reduction in fees if you have high standings with the NPC faction that controls that region and (b) a skill that reduces POCO tariffs. If hi-sec POCOs charge 70% for zero-standings and zero-skill, then at 10.0 standings it should drop to 60% and with the level V skill trained it could drop as low as 50%. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:17:00 -
[1224] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.
Yes, we understand you refuse to see past the other options available to you: 1) Use a high-sec factory for your imports. 2) Find a less populous lowsec area to do your imports. (Lowsec is pretty empty if you get past the first 5 systems in) 3) Negotiate with the residents to use thier CO and planet for imports. 4) Join a larger corporation with similar interests. Just because you want to play solo does not mean every single aspect of every single feature should cater to your play style.
1. You know... that sounded like a good idea so I spent the last couple hours searching my wormhole... I couldn't find any in here. 2. Couldn't find any low sec ones either. Damn the bad luck. 3. I am the residents. Between the down time from the command centers going poof to the logistical nightmare getting up to ten of these POCOs up and running, we're screwed. 4. See 1 & 2.
But... these are actually separate issues from empire, so I shouldn't let myself get too distracted... the issues there still remain in spite of your dismissals of them. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:18:00 -
[1225] - Quote
Au' Tena wrote:as high-seccer all i read is DOUBLE tax rate and POSSIBLE higher PI prices. oh man, i just cant wait ...best idea ever ...it might increase prices for POS fuels, it however does NOT do anything else for the other things that can be manufactured with PI. yet u do get all hyped up about these sov change possibilities for low an nullsec. perhaps it might be a better idea broaden your focus instead of spending too much time and energy in specific details. props for ccp phantom to summon things up, yes please let them make the interface more logical.
you state that it might increase pos fuel costs, but it wont effect anything else.
i take it you are not aware that robotics are used in many many t2 items. ok its a small amount per t2 item but its in directed compertion with pos fuel supplies. while you at the 'pump' wont see the effect of this initially. every t2 producer will and it really dosnt take much of an increase in cost to drive profit out of that business. while you will always have idiots that think the stuff the produce is free(minerials and pi crap) they tend not to be big producers of items.
the effect on the big producers will be, fuckthis ill run incursions instead.
so you are wrong, it will effect the prices of everything.
the best thing imo to do woudl be to remove robotics from pos fuel, make it only for t2 items/or teh other way make it only for pos's and change it to a lower teir pi crap in production. well unless its ccp's plan to get us and dusties to fight over robotics..lol |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:19:00 -
[1226] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote: A few hundred posts in the thread ago, I calculated that it's about 6 times (from memory, exact number may be different) more expensive tax wise to export a unit of robotics, than it is to export all the processed materials to make a unit of robotics. So the obvious incentive is to import low level materials into the lowest tax planet around and manufacture higher level commodities, most likely in high sec.
That's an artifact of the already existing issue where tax rates on the different tiers have too much of a variance. - Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate). - P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate - P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate - P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate - P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate So under the existing tariff schedule, P0 and P4 (and P3) are a lot more sensitive to tariff rate changes then the P1/P2 because they pay a higher percentage of their value in taxes then the other tiers. Basically, the P1/P2 tariffs are about 5x too low when compared to the others and P4 tariffs are about 2x too large. Smoothing that out prior to release would help POCOs on planets used for P1 harvesting to have a far better payback period (5x shorter if the base tariff is raised 5x). And the P2 factory worlds would end up on an even footing with the P3 factory worlds. On the more controversial side - I think hi-sec, NPC-owned, POCOs need to charge a lot more then the proposed 10% tariff rate (50-75% tariff would not be out of line). The 10% tariff rate is too low and makes lo-sec or NPC null-sec POCOs unable to compete at all economically. As you point out, why take the risk with anything higher then P2 in lo-sec when you can just pay a 10% tariff in hi-sec? But if hi-sec has higher tariffs, then there need to be (a) reduction in fees if you have high standings with the NPC faction that controls that region and (b) a skill that reduces POCO tariffs. If hi-sec POCOs charge 70% for zero-standings and zero-skill, then at 10.0 standings it should drop to 60% and with the level V skill trained it could drop as low as 50%.
Tax rates in high-sec are being increased, however, not nearly as much as you are saying. the increase of 50% is plenty and will still make PI available to newer players (ie a 6% tax will increase to a 9% tax, which isn't a small amount of ISK considering that base PI prices will rise). As a member of EveUni, I think you would know the merit of helping players that have under 3 million skill points make a little bit of extra ISK here and there. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:19:00 -
[1227] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.
PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".
If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be. Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center... Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level. I don't think you read my entire post. Most people have High-sec factory planets where P2 products and up are made. This will still be available, as the customs offices in high sec will remain, ie you can still import/export in high-sec. Also, I don't think there was ever a plan to be able to deny access to a functioning POCO depending on standing. I beleive the only way to do that would be to reinforce it constantly, which is tiresome and a logistical nightmare.
My apologies, I got my wires crossed... my response with the issues of launching drifted back to the logistics we'll have in wormholes. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:21:00 -
[1228] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.
Yes, we understand you refuse to see past the other options available to you: 1) Use a high-sec factory for your imports. 2) Find a less populous lowsec area to do your imports. (Lowsec is pretty empty if you get past the first 5 systems in) 3) Negotiate with the residents to use thier CO and planet for imports. 4) Join a larger corporation with similar interests. Just because you want to play solo does not mean every single aspect of every single feature should cater to your play style. 1. You know... that sounded like a good idea so I spent the last couple hours searching my wormhole... I couldn't find any in here. 2. Couldn't find any low sec ones either. Damn the bad luck. 3. I am the residents. Between the down time from the command centers going poof to the logistical nightmare getting up to ten of these POCOs up and running, we're screwed. 4. See 1 & 2. But... these are actually separate issues from empire, so I shouldn't let myself get too distracted... the issues there still remain in spite of your dismissals of them.
As I've stated before, and I think you have as well; If CCP got rid of the customs offices a week after the release of the BPCs, you should have more than enough time to get them built and into the wh. I've also lived in a WH, so before you say anything, I know exactly how it is.
Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1078
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:29:00 -
[1229] - Quote
I have updated the list of player concerns to reflect more feedback.
Please remember that there are a lot of good ideas in this thread also. You folks bring really constructive feedback! CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
143
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:29:00 -
[1230] - Quote
One more issue I dont see mentioned:
Add a new corp role for maneging POCO's instead of putting more pressure on an existing role, making it harder for CEO's to assign certain roles.
My youtube channel Video Thread |
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations 0ccupational Hazzard
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:31:00 -
[1231] - Quote
Because of the known griefing potential I myself was thinking of a more griefer-proofed approach. With current rates of 50% of the materials being produced in hi-sec, the current iteration will force much more people to hi-sec, which is not good.
Lord Timelord proposed:
Lord Timelord wrote: Empire CO - Double the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD) Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD) Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)
Even if it's not reflecting the exhaustive wish list of people posting in this thread, it probably matches well with the already written code. I like this approach and would just see it little bit more fine grained.
- Empire CO - Double/Tripple the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Owner: CONCORD)
- Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.
- Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.
- Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS
- W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:35:00 -
[1232] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote: Tax rates in high-sec are being increased, however, not nearly as much as you are saying. the increase of 50% is plenty and will still make PI available to newer players (ie a 6% tax will increase to a 9% tax, which isn't a small amount of ISK considering that base PI prices will rise). As a member of EveUni, I think you would know the merit of helping players that have under 3 million skill points make a little bit of extra ISK here and there.
I'm trying to find the mid-point where hi-sec tariffs are high enough that lo-sec looks attractive, where lo-sec POCOs are profitable to put up (has to be less then a 60 day payback), where there aren't any strange bumps in the tariff chain (such as the ultra low P1/P2 tax rates or the higher then they should be P4 tax rates). And I also expect PI price indexes to stay about 20-30% above September 2011 prices.
(I actually spend a lot of game time helping younger players setup P1 harvest planets, so I'm very familiar with it. A hi-sec PI harvest planet is a good way for a new player to earn 15-25M ISK/month/planet, with a payback period of about a week in most cases. We're constantly pushing new players to take up PI as a side source of income so that they don't feel so poor. Taking the tax rate on P1 stuff from 0.2% to 1.0% as a base and even raising it up to 3-8% isn't going to affect that much at all. Especially since all the other tiers will also be paying something in that tax range.
As we've seen already over the past few months, PI prices will go up if supply can't meet demand. The tariff rates just mean that younger pilots will need to be sure and charge a bit more. Reduced tariffs based on standings/skill throws the older players a bone, but without making it impossible for younger players to compete.) |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
499
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:46:00 -
[1233] - Quote
@CCP Phantom
Can you please add the "Adds more Shooting at Structures to a system already bored TO TEARS with Shooting at structures."
Even if profitability and the rest of the issues are resolved taking sovereignty will now involved destroying ANOTHER 10 STRUCTURES on top of the existing structures people are BORED WITH.
Can't they make a system that involves something other than shooting? Make it the test-bed for larger sovereignty ownership style capture of the future so that they can learn from what may or may not work in SOV! Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:52:00 -
[1234] - Quote
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:
- Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.
- Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.
Why would anyone attack them then? The only reason would be pure griefing, as you have removed the two legitimate reasons for attacking a POCO: getting the income and forcing a fight. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:52:00 -
[1235] - Quote
This may be too radical of a suggestion for most people to handle, but how about this for an idea... (ideally would be not introducing them at all, but...)
Customs offices remain where they are until someone puts up a POCO.
This allows people to transition in at a pace the game can keep up with. Possibly as an "incentive" to switch them over tax rates could slowly increase over time.
This still doesn't alleviate the issue of allowing other people control of our PI, which is a horrible idea, but it may help reduce the sting that something as short-sighted as instantly removing all customs offices at once would have. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:53:00 -
[1236] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote: Tax rates in high-sec are being increased, however, not nearly as much as you are saying. the increase of 50% is plenty and will still make PI available to newer players (ie a 6% tax will increase to a 9% tax, which isn't a small amount of ISK considering that base PI prices will rise). As a member of EveUni, I think you would know the merit of helping players that have under 3 million skill points make a little bit of extra ISK here and there.
I'm trying to find the mid-point where hi-sec tariffs are high enough that lo-sec looks attractive, where lo-sec POCOs are profitable to put up (has to be less then a 60 day payback), where there aren't any strange bumps in the tariff chain (such as the ultra low P1/P2 tax rates or the higher then they should be P4 tax rates). And I also expect PI price indexes to stay about 20-30% above September 2011 prices. (I actually spend a lot of game time helping younger players setup P1 harvest planets, so I'm very familiar with it. A hi-sec PI harvest planet is a good way for a new player to earn 15-25M ISK/month/planet, with a payback period of about a week in most cases. We're constantly pushing new players to take up PI as a side source of income so that they don't feel so poor. Taking the tax rate on P1 stuff from 0.2% to 1.0% as a base and even raising it up to 3-8% isn't going to affect that much at all. Especially since all the other tiers will also be paying something in that tax range. As we've seen already over the past few months, PI prices will go up if supply can't meet demand. The tariff rates just mean that younger pilots will need to be sure and charge a bit more. Reduced tariffs based on standings/skill throws the older players a bone, but without making it impossible for younger players to compete.)
Another way to solve this is to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible, as this will GREATLY decrease the costs of low-sec PI, as well as making them more attractive to smaller corps or smaller gangs, as a conquerable structure with only a few hundred thousand hitpoints should be easily feasible for a 10-20 man gang of bc's and bs's.
We're on the same page here, just different ways of doing it. We both want low-sec PI to not break... Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:58:00 -
[1237] - Quote
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:Because of the known griefing potential I myself was thinking of a more griefer-proofed approach. With current rates of 50% of the materials being produced in hi-sec, the current iteration will force much more people to hi-sec, which is not good. Lord Timelord proposed: Lord Timelord wrote: Empire CO - Double the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD) Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD) Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)
Even if it's not reflecting the exhaustive wish list of people posting in this thread, it probably matches well with the already written code. I like this approach and would just see it little bit more fine grained.
- Empire CO - Double/Tripple the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Owner: CONCORD)
- Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.
- Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.
- Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS
- W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS
No to your first 3 points (the ones about high-sec, low-sec, and NPC null). There is still no incentive to attack a POCO with this. No one wants to shoot at something that won't A.) be theirs to own or B.) go boom. This will change nothing except sov 0.0 and WH's. 0.0 npc space is not technically owned by players, but living there for a few months should make you realize that the larger sov holding alliances around there basically own it. You can tell by the numerous roams, station/gate camps, heavily guarded mining ops, etc; basically making it sov 0.0, but without the actual sov mechanic (ah, the good old pre-dominion days...) Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 14:59:00 -
[1238] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:This may be too radical of a suggestion for most people to handle, but how about this for an idea... (ideally would be not introducing them at all, but...)
Customs offices remain where they are until someone puts up a POCO.
This allows people to transition in at a pace the game can keep up with. Possibly as an "incentive" to switch them over tax rates could slowly increase over time.
This still doesn't alleviate the issue of allowing other people control of our PI, which is a horrible idea, but it may help reduce the sting that something as short-sighted as instantly removing all customs offices at once would have.
Decent idea. Having tax rates double or triple every few days or every week should make people realize that sooner or later, a POCO will be cheaper than the NPC version. Also, it frees CCP's dev team from having to remove them all from space during downtime. Or, if you prefer, less work for CCP, more pew pew for players. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:06:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Another way to solve this is to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible, as this will GREATLY decrease the costs of low-sec PI, as well as making them more attractive to smaller corps or smaller gangs, as a conquerable structure with only a few hundred thousand hitpoints should be easily feasible for a 10-20 man gang of bc's and bs's.
The reason you need a big hitpoint buffer is to keep the attacker from "blitzing" the structure and leaving, completely ignoring the defense fleet. If you reduce the EHP, at you need to increase the resists considerably. Then the defender can RR the structure to force the attacker to fight them or leave. It also makes repping easier if the attacker doesn't show up. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:15:00 -
[1240] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Another way to solve this is to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible, as this will GREATLY decrease the costs of low-sec PI, as well as making them more attractive to smaller corps or smaller gangs, as a conquerable structure with only a few hundred thousand hitpoints should be easily feasible for a 10-20 man gang of bc's and bs's. The reason you need a big hitpoint buffer is to keep the attacker from "blitzing" the structure and leaving, completely ignoring the defense fleet. If you reduce the EHP, at you need to increase the resists considerably. Then the defender can RR the structure to force the attacker to fight them or leave. It also makes repping easier if the attacker doesn't show up.
Dominus Alterai wrote:to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible
I was referring to if the structure was conquerable. If it's conquerable, it needs enough ehp where a small gang (15-20 members) can take it in under 15 or 20 minutes. This will allow a quick swapping over the customs office and also allow the people who want to own it to either protect it or be forced to re-capture it, forcing GFs on a celestial where people won't be able to play station/gate games, which is a VERY GOOD THING.
If it's destructible, then yes. It will need enough ehp where an offending fleet won't just ignore the defenders and, in essence, suicide gank the POCO; take massive losses in order to reinforce it or reinforce it and warp out. Large amounts of EHP, similar to a small or medium POS, should be on the destructible POCOs that should be in 0.0 space and w-space. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
|
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations 0ccupational Hazzard
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:24:00 -
[1241] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:
- Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.
- Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.
Why would anyone attack them then? The only reason would be pure griefing, as you have removed the two legitimate reasons for attacking a POCO: getting the income and forcing a fight.
It's about sabotage and it's still better than having no effect at all (current solution). Somebody asked for a raid. Add raids to low+npc space to spice it a little bit ..but not too much ! Raiding results in disabling CO and destruction/drop of some goods.
The real challenge is to find good balance between a motivation to gain/earn something and pure grief. The solution proposed in the blog will end in pure grief.
|
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
227
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:25:00 -
[1242] - Quote
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:Because of the known griefing potential I myself was thinking of a more griefer-proofed approach. With current rates of 50% of the materials being produced in hi-sec, the current iteration will force much more people to hi-sec, which is not good. Lord Timelord proposed: Lord Timelord wrote: Empire CO - Double the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD) Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD) Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)
Even if it's not reflecting the exhaustive wish list of people posting in this thread, it probably matches well with the already written code. I like this approach and would just see it little bit more fine grained.
- Empire CO - Double/Tripple the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Owner: CONCORD)
- Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.
- Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.
- Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS
- W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS
I don't agree with the Low Sec = Concord Ownership idea. Low Sec has long been left forgotten in terms of development and making it a watered down version on High Sec is unappealing. Low Sec's mechanics should be closer to that of Null Sec - i.e vulnerable.
Vulnerability might be something to fear, but it acts as a magnate for conflict and player interaction (collaboration in defence or attack).
Keep Low Sec's POCOs vulnerable and player owned.
C.
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:27:00 -
[1243] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Jack Dant wrote: The reason you need a big hitpoint buffer is to keep the attacker from "blitzing" the structure and leaving, completely ignoring the defense fleet. If you reduce the EHP, at you need to increase the resists considerably. Then the defender can RR the structure to force the attacker to fight them or leave. It also makes repping easier if the attacker doesn't show up.
Dominus Alterai wrote:to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible I was referring to if the structure was conquerable. If it's conquerable, it needs enough ehp where a small gang (15-20 members) can take it in under 15 or 20 minutes. This will allow a quick swapping over the customs office and also allow the people who want to own it to either protect it or be forced to re-capture it. If it's destructible, then yes. It will need enough ehp where an offending fleet won't just ignore the defenders and, in essence, suicide gank the POCO; take massive losses in order to reinforce it or reinforce it and warp out. Large amounts of EHP, similar to a small or medium POS, should be on the destructible POCOs that should be in 0.0 space and w-space.
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I agree making it conquerable (at least as an option) is good and will make them more economical. Also, if they have less EHP, they will change hands more often and create more conflict, if only because people won't be so bored of shooting them. But it still needs some sort of protection against such a "suicide gank". What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:28:00 -
[1244] - Quote
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:
- Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.
- Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.
Why would anyone attack them then? The only reason would be pure griefing, as you have removed the two legitimate reasons for attacking a POCO: getting the income and forcing a fight. It's about sabotage and it's still better than having no effect at all (current solution). Somebody asked for a raid. Add raids to low+npc space to spice it a little bit ..but not too much ! Raiding results in disabling CO and destruction/drop of some goods. The real challenge is to find good balance between a motivation to gain/earn something and pure grief. The solution proposed in the blog will end in pure grief.
Yes, the currently proposed mechanics of being fully destructible is rife with opportunities to grief, but having no way to switch over ownership of the customs office is NOT a good thing. That tends to lead to monopolies and shutting out 90% of eve from PI. Either have them fully destructible, or, as I prefer, have them conquerable. At least in Low-sec. They can remain fully destructible as proposed by CCP in 0.0 and w-space. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:30:00 -
[1245] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Jack Dant wrote: The reason you need a big hitpoint buffer is to keep the attacker from "blitzing" the structure and leaving, completely ignoring the defense fleet. If you reduce the EHP, at you need to increase the resists considerably. Then the defender can RR the structure to force the attacker to fight them or leave. It also makes repping easier if the attacker doesn't show up.
Dominus Alterai wrote:to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible I was referring to if the structure was conquerable. If it's conquerable, it needs enough ehp where a small gang (15-20 members) can take it in under 15 or 20 minutes. This will allow a quick swapping over the customs office and also allow the people who want to own it to either protect it or be forced to re-capture it. If it's destructible, then yes. It will need enough ehp where an offending fleet won't just ignore the defenders and, in essence, suicide gank the POCO; take massive losses in order to reinforce it or reinforce it and warp out. Large amounts of EHP, similar to a small or medium POS, should be on the destructible POCOs that should be in 0.0 space and w-space. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I agree making it conquerable (at least as an option) is good and will make them more economical. Also, if they have less EHP, they will change hands more often and create more conflict, if only because people won't be so bored of shooting them. But it still needs some sort of protection against such a "suicide gank".
The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:33:00 -
[1246] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.
Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?
What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:35:00 -
[1247] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Pricelevels are off, PCOs will be unprofitable PCOs will be unprofitable and not worth the invested time and especially ISK Income from PCOs will be too low to justify the build costs and risk deploying them Taxrate will be either near 0 or near 100 Taxes in Highsec for P4 products too high
Not sure if this list would include the issue of the PCO not being worth defending or attacking (other than for grieving purposes).
How much ISK (ie ships) do you risk to defend a 80m ISK structure that brings in a few mil ISK a month? Why attack a structure that pays nothing immediately, but only gives you the ability to invest 80m yourself for the same amount of income, especially since there are thousands of planets around?
Also, regarding the economic impact-
Think it's pretty universally agreed that PI prices would go up. How much is hotly debated. I don't think the effect on the economy can be predicted to any degree of certainty, especially since there is wide disagreement on what this change (as proposed anyway) would actually do.
Having a dramatic effect on PI prices (like quadrupling) would also have a corresponding effect on T2 stuff, and anything done in a POS. That effect would ripple throughout the economy, and I think have a significant effect on how the game is played, even those who do nothing with PI at all currently will be affected. For example, non-t2 mods (faction, meta 0-4, officer) would be more in demand since t2 products would be higher priced. Higher prices would draw more people to industry driving prices down. Hard to predict exactly what would happen.
So unless I am misunderstanding the intent, it would be desirable to not have a big impact on PI prices. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:41:00 -
[1248] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out. Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?
Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both. OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured.
And lol. POCO Ping-Pong sounds like a new Eve meta game. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:41:00 -
[1249] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out. Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?
Hmm, this gave me an idea.
After you put up or capture a PCO, it can not be attacked for a period of time. How long would have to be discussed.
I can see pros and cons to having this mechanic in game. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:43:00 -
[1250] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out. Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong? Hmm, this gave me an idea. After you put up or capture a PCO, it can not be attacked for a period of time. How long would have to be discussed. I can see pros and cons to having this mechanic in game.
I would say, at MOST 48 hours, but a more realistic number would be 12-24 hours. Good idea though. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:50:00 -
[1251] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out. Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong? Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both.
Timezones are the issue. An EU corp logs on in the afternoon to find the US corp in the same system took the POCO. Now you have to shoot it to get it back. Day after day. No fleet engagements there.
Quote:OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured.
This is what I thought you meant originally.
Meldan Anstian wrote:After you put up or capture a PCO, it can not be attacked for a period of time. How long would have to be discussed.
If it stays operational while reinforced (the devs said so), you already have around 24 hours to use it before you can lose it. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:50:00 -
[1252] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:.... Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level. I can imagine a serious "land-grab" once the first gantries are made and shipped out to low and null sec space. This does seem like a highly artificial mechanism for griefing established space holders. But, hey, this is CCP game development at its best: throw the baby in the deep end of the pool and watch what happens next.
It might be an interesting tactic to tie up high-sec and some low-sec station-based industrial facilities with bulk / junk T1 module jobs to grief those attempting to build gantries. Hmmmm. I like where this is heading.
Also, I wonder if or what type of POS manufacturing array will be capable of building the Gantry.
Edit: foiled the forum's PvP attempt once again! My Copy and Paste technique will beat CCP Forum Development style every time! 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:53:00 -
[1253] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out. Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong? Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both. OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured. And lol. POCO Ping-Pong sounds like a new Eve meta game.
This would be annoying as hell in wormholes and ultimately provide little to no benefit however. The only time I'd see this being useful is moving in to a new hole with some of these already up.
That brings up a question... can we offline and scoop these up if we want to move them to a different planet/system? Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:57:00 -
[1254] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out. Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong? Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both. OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured. And lol. POCO Ping-Pong sounds like a new Eve meta game. This would be annoying as hell in wormholes and ultimately provide little to no benefit however. The only time I'd see this being useful is moving in to a new hole with some of these already up. That brings up a question... can we offline and scoop these up if we want to move them to a different planet/system?
Good question, however, I doubt it. And the conquering mechanic should only be for low-sec. Sorry mate, but w-space customs offices should be fully destructible as proposed by CCP (with a few minor adjustments obviously). Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
200
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 15:57:00 -
[1255] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote: Please remember that there are a lot of good ideas in this thread also. You folks bring really constructive feedback!
As I posted here ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=208048#post208048 ) --
Having taxes set as a percent is NOT the way to do this. It works in real life because it's a percent of what the goods are being sold for. But CCP doesn't know what the goods are selling for, unless you float the item's base tax price daily according to a jita average. You are using some arbitrary value that will eventually (if not immediately) be totally inaccurate, on which people base a tax rate. It makes no sense, because you could have people wanting to set taxes to be, say, 300% in order to get a reasonable fraction of value for a plasma planet.
Allowing the POCO owner to set a straight up isk per m3 tax would make more sense. It's makes cost immediately clear to the user, it encourages users to have more complex setups on a planet instead of exporting raws or p1s, and it would encourage people to produce the most profitable products per p3 at a given tier, which is a user demand-driven market driver instead of driving the market based on some weird base tax value CCP creates. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 16:04:00 -
[1256] - Quote
pmchem wrote:CCP Phantom wrote: Please remember that there are a lot of good ideas in this thread also. You folks bring really constructive feedback!
As I posted here ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=208048#post208048 ) -- Having taxes set as a percent is NOT the way to do this. It works in real life because it's a percent of what the goods are being sold for. But CCP doesn't know what the goods are selling for, unless you float the item's base tax price daily according to a jita average. You are using some arbitrary value that will eventually (if not immediately) be totally inaccurate, on which people base a tax rate. It makes no sense, because you could have people wanting to set taxes to be, say, 300% in order to get a reasonable fraction of value for a plasma planet. Allowing the POCO owner to set a straight up isk per m3 tax would make more sense. It's makes cost immediately clear to the user, it encourages users to have more complex setups on a planet instead of exporting raws or p1s, and it would encourage people to produce the most profitable products per p3 at a given tier, which is a user demand-driven market driver instead of driving the market based on some weird base tax value CCP creates.
First off, the tax rate is set the same way the insurance rates are: by the previous days market average. CCP get's this info because, well, they own the game code. And making a comparison with real life taxes is similar. Credit ratings are based off of previous data, such as the previous market closing prices. Updated hourly in some cases, yes, but mostly based on previous days closing prices. Even sales tax and income tax are based off of data from the previous YEAR'S economic data. If it were based on M3 exported/imported, then the higher tier products would cost less in taxes, as there is approximately a 25% DECREASE in m3 per tier (ie the P1 products used to make P2 products weigh 25% more than the P2 product itself.)
Also, prices don't shoot up 300% in one day unless an entire alliance decides to price fix and deny supply (ehem...blue ice).
also, not sure if trolling.... Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 16:28:00 -
[1257] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Allowing the POCO owner to set a straight up isk per m3 tax would make more sense. It's makes cost immediately clear to the user, it encourages users to have more complex setups on a planet instead of exporting raws or p1s, and it would encourage people to produce the most profitable products per p3 at a given tier, which is a user demand-driven market driver instead of driving the market based on some weird base tax value CCP creates.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_interaction#Taxes
Main issues with the existing tariff scheme is that they need to be adjusted to match reality with what the real conversion rates are between the tiers. Exporting the individual components for Robotics should not cost so much more then what it costs to export Robotics.
Robotics (3) <- Mechanical Parts (10) + Consumer Electronics (10) Mechanical Parts (5) <- Precious Metals (40) + Reactive Metals (40) Consumer Electronics (5) <- Chiral Structures (40) + Toxic Metals (40)
Export tax for Robotics = 600 ISK/u Export tax for the (13.3) units of P2 needed to create (1) Robotics = 120 ISK/u of robotics produced Export tax for the (212.8) units of P1 needed to create (1) Robotics = 161 ISK/u of robotics produced Export tax for the (31920) units of P0 needed to create (1) Robotics = 3192 ISK/u of robotics
(P0 tariffs too high, P1/P2 tariffs too low currently, P3 tariffs are about right.)
Existing export tariffs for the various tiers, on a per m3 basis:
P0 - 0.01 m3 - 0.10/unit = 10 ISK/m3 P1 - 0.38 m3 - 0.76/unit = 0.5 ISK/m3 P2 - 1.5 m3 - 9/unit = 6 ISK/m3 P3 - 6 m3 - 600 ISK/u = 100 ISK/m3 P4 - 100 m3 - 50,000 ISK/u = 500 ISK/m3
The problem with trying to harmonize solely on ISK/m3 to say 100 ISK/m3 is that P0 taxes would go up 10x, P1 would go up 200x, P2 would go up 16x, and P4 would go down 5x. It doesn't take into account the various conversion rates between the tiers (such as 3000 P0 -> 20 P1, which results in a decrease from 30 m3 down to 7.6 m3).
While I agree that P1 & P2 export tariffs need to go up, existing P0 export tariffs being multiplied by 10x would absolutely crush the ability (for those who want to) to move P0 to another planet. And it would lower the tariff rate on P4 too much (that tier only needs about a 50% reduction to bring it more in line with the other tiers). |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 16:42:00 -
[1258] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:pmchem wrote:Allowing the POCO owner to set a straight up isk per m3 tax would make more sense. It's makes cost immediately clear to the user, it encourages users to have more complex setups on a planet instead of exporting raws or p1s, and it would encourage people to produce the most profitable products per p3 at a given tier, which is a user demand-driven market driver instead of driving the market based on some weird base tax value CCP creates. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_interaction#TaxesMain issues with the existing tariff scheme is that they need to be adjusted to match reality with what the real conversion rates are between the tiers. Exporting the individual components for Robotics should not cost so much more then what it costs to export Robotics. Robotics (3) <- Mechanical Parts (10) + Consumer Electronics (10) Mechanical Parts (5) <- Precious Metals (40) + Reactive Metals (40) Consumer Electronics (5) <- Chiral Structures (40) + Toxic Metals (40) Export tax for Robotics = 600 ISK/u Export tax for the (13.3) units of P2 needed to create (1) Robotics = 120 ISK/u of robotics produced Export tax for the (212.8) units of P1 needed to create (1) Robotics = 161 ISK/u of robotics produced Export tax for the (31920) units of P0 needed to create (1) Robotics = 3192 ISK/u of robotics (P0 tariffs too high, P1/P2 tariffs too low currently, P3 tariffs are about right.) Existing export tariffs for the various tiers, on a per m3 basis: P0 - 0.01 m3 - 0.10/unit = 10 ISK/m3 P1 - 0.38 m3 - 0.76/unit = 0.5 ISK/m3 P2 - 1.5 m3 - 9/unit = 6 ISK/m3 P3 - 6 m3 - 600 ISK/u = 100 ISK/m3 P4 - 100 m3 - 50,000 ISK/u = 500 ISK/m3 The problem with trying to harmonize solely on ISK/m3 to say 100 ISK/m3 is that P0 taxes would go up 10x, P1 would go up 200x, P2 would go up 16x, and P4 would go down 5x. It doesn't take into account the various conversion rates between the tiers (such as 3000 P0 -> 20 P1, which results in a decrease from 30 m3 down to 7.6 m3). While I agree that P1 & P2 export tariffs need to go up, existing P0 export tariffs being multiplied by 10x would absolutely crush the ability (for those who want to) to move P0 to another planet. And it would lower the tariff rate on P4 too much (that tier only needs about a 50% reduction to bring it more in line with the other tiers).
THIS^^
Just an easier way of looking at it... It takes 3000 P0 units to make 20 P1 units and 40 of each P1 units to make 5 P2 units, and 10 of each P2 units to make 3 P3 units. So, 3 Robotics is actually 20 P2 units, which is 160 P1 units, which is 48,000 P0 units.
SO, 48,000 P0 units is 480 M3, which is 4,800 ISK tax. While 3 Robotics, a P3 unit, takes 1800 ISK tax. This is the reason people almost never export or import P0 products and just forward the extractors to processors for P1 production. P1 products are cheaper to import or export BY FAR.
Just to be clear, I agree that P0 prices need not go up, while the rest does. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 16:57:00 -
[1259] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:List of concerns and whines
A hefty chunk of that list comes down to people whining because of change, whining because they'll have to work with other people in a multiplayer game, whining because they might have PvP forced on them in lowsec, whining because they don't have a clue about markets and whining because they can't plan ahead. The whine about some of the blockade runners not being able to fit a gantry was extra whiney. Still, I'm sure the EU has a huge pile of surplus cheese somewhere and this could be a great way to get rid of it.
I hope the dev team are extremely judicious in ignoring that nonsense and concentrating on the very valid concerns that have been raised in the thread. As it stands, the changes are going to be good for non-whiners, but with some attention paid to the genuine shortcomings it could be excellent.
Will there be a new list that shows the appropriate counters? |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:09:00 -
[1260] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:List of concerns and whines A hefty chunk of that list comes down to people whining because of change, whining because they'll have to work with other people in a multiplayer game, whining because they might have PvP forced on them in lowsec, whining because they don't have a clue about markets and whining because they can't plan ahead. The whine about some of the blockade runners not being able to fit a gantry was extra whiney. Still, I'm sure the EU has a huge pile of surplus cheese somewhere and this could be a great way to get rid of it. I hope the dev team are extremely judicious in ignoring that nonsense and concentrating on the very valid concerns that have been raised in the thread. As it stands, the changes are going to be good for non-whiners, but with some attention paid to the genuine shortcomings it could be excellent. Will there be a new list that shows the appropriate counters?
THIS^^
Cloaky hauler too small? Tough ****. Want to name the POCO? Too bad. Don't want to go to PVP? Don't go to low-sec.
Some of the whine here has an excellent year, I recommend some nicely aged gouda or perhaps some brie and toast points. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
|
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:10:00 -
[1261] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:After you put up or capture a PCO, it can not be attacked for a period of time. How long would have to be discussed. If it stays operational while reinforced (the devs said so), you already have around 24 hours to use it before you can lose it.
Good point, but maybe you are incorrect.
It takes some time to anchor a gantry, and then more time to upgrade it to a customs office. How much hasn't been announced I don't think.
Nothing has been said about the defenses of a gantry, other than hit points. Does a gantry go into reinforcement mode like a CO? Is a gantry vulnerable while it's being upgraded? How long does it take to upgrade a gantry to a customs office? What happens if your gantry is being upgraded and then is put into reinforced mode? Does upgrading cease until RF mode ends?
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:10:00 -
[1262] - Quote
It's cute when children on the internet pretend to be men. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:14:00 -
[1263] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:After you put up or capture a PCO, it can not be attacked for a period of time. How long would have to be discussed. If it stays operational while reinforced (the devs said so), you already have around 24 hours to use it before you can lose it. Good point, but maybe you are incorrect. It takes some time to anchor a gantry, and then more time to upgrade it to a customs office. How much hasn't been announced I don't think. Nothing has been said about the defenses of a gantry, other than hit points. Does a gantry go into reinforcement mode like a CO? Is a gantry vulnerable while it's being upgraded? How long does it take to upgrade a gantry to a customs office? What happens if your gantry is being upgraded and then is put into reinforced mode? Does upgrading cease until RF mode ends?
I'm assuming that they are much like station 'eggs.' When it's in it's prebuilt, yet anchored form, it's VERY vulnerable to enemy fire, which is the reason people anchor and 'feed' the outpost eggs minutes before downtime, as when downtime ends, the build timer is done. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:22:00 -
[1264] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
While I agree that P1 & P2 export tariffs need to go up, existing P0 export tariffs being multiplied by 10x would absolutely crush the ability (for those who want to) to move P0 to another planet. And it would lower the tariff rate on P4 too much (that tier only needs about a 50% reduction to bring it more in line with the other tiers).
Changing the relative tax values of the different levels of PI materials, also affects how people design their PI manufacturing. I, and I believe many others as well, export P1 materials from a planet, and move it to a pure production planet to make P2-P4 commodities.
In thinking of this, it made me realize another avenue of grieving. Have a low tax rate, get a few people to invest a few million into PI on my planet, and then jack the tax rate up to max. That kind of problem would make me want to either just have launches, or avoid PI entirely.
In every other area of Eve, your costs can be more or less determined before hand. If player collected taxes can be anything from the current fairly insignificant amount, to something fairly significant, you loose that ability to have a good idea of your costs before investing.
|
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:26:00 -
[1265] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:THIS^^
Awww, bless, my first ever "this". I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now. :)
CCP, any chance of getting corporate hangers added to the list of wants? I realise you're swamped with posts here and you're working to a deadline, so I'll just keep prodding you on this issue in the hope that it gets noticed. Some of us want to be able to do PI as a team (in lowsec, with customs offices open to neurals and defended by our small gangs). |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:30:00 -
[1266] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:
While I agree that P1 & P2 export tariffs need to go up, existing P0 export tariffs being multiplied by 10x would absolutely crush the ability (for those who want to) to move P0 to another planet. And it would lower the tariff rate on P4 too much (that tier only needs about a 50% reduction to bring it more in line with the other tiers).
Changing the relative tax values of the different levels of PI materials, also affects how people design their PI manufacturing. I, and I believe many others as well, export P1 materials from a planet, and move it to a pure production planet to make P2-P4 commodities. In thinking of this, it made me realize another avenue of grieving. Have a low tax rate, get a few people to invest a few million into PI on my planet, and then jack the tax rate up to max. That kind of problem would make me want to either just have launches, or avoid PI entirely. In every other area of Eve, your costs can be more or less determined before hand. If player collected taxes can be anything from the current fairly insignificant amount, to something fairly significant, you loose that ability to have a good idea of your costs before investing.
While I agree that this is a possible tactic of griefing other players, this is another reason to either have conquerable offices that you can take if this happens, at least in low-sec. However, in 0.0 space, I don't see this happening, as tax rates are tied to standings with your corp/alliance. As anyone in 0.0 space can tell you, increased taxes on planets is the least of your worries if your standings get reset. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
247
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:31:00 -
[1267] - Quote
I have a few questions I'd like answered:
1.) How is the location of a new POCO to be determined? Is the only tool available to use warping around and dropping bookmarks, or will ccp develop some deployment tool?
2.) Is the upgrade from a Gantry to a POCO instantaneous? Do we have to wait until a DT?
3.) In my experience, most of the people doing PI use CO's to export goods, and don't even bother wiring in the CC. By eliminating our CO's, your eliminating the ability of spaceports to move goods off the planet. I think allowing planetary launches from spaceports is important to maintaining the production of many of our planets, and think this deserves some examination. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:36:00 -
[1268] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I have a few questions I'd like answered:
1.) How is the location of a new POCO to be determined? Is the only tool available to use warping around and dropping bookmarks, or will ccp develop some deployment tool?
2.) Is the upgrade from a Gantry to a POCO instantaneous? Do we have to wait until a DT?
3.) In my experience, most of the people doing PI use CO's to export goods, and don't even bother wiring in the CC. By eliminating our CO's, your eliminating the ability of spaceports to move goods off the planet. I think allowing planetary launches from spaceports is important to maintaining the production of many of our planets, and think this deserves some examination.
I know I sound like a broken record, but this is another reason to make low-sec CO's conquerable. For you guys in 0.0, have your system director anchor a few of these bad boys. I know I'll be doing this ALL WEEK when these come out.
Speaking of anchoring, I think it will be similar to how a POS tower is anchored, that is, it's anchored where ever you warp in at. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:41:00 -
[1269] - Quote
I'm only on page 33 reading the thread, so apologies if I missed some newer relevant comments...
Disclaimer: I do PI, I've thought about doing it in low-sec on a small scale (I'm frequently there anyway) and I've been looking for planets for this. My main PI-Planets are Factory planets though, turning P2/P3 into P4 though, these are obviously in high-sec since I need a hub nearby to get the stuff.
My first reaction was "Yay, sounds great", which turned to "omg this is never gonna work" after reading a few pages here, and has since alternated between those two quite a few times. So I'm very much undecided on what I think about this.
First of all though, even if everyone acts like CCP expects (cooperating, allowing neutrals and stuff), I don't think many people are gonna go to low-sec to setup PI for the assumed lower taxes on exports. They currently go there for the higher yield the planets offer, which in turn gives a greater revenue over all (with similar income per produced item sold) with just a bit more overhead (hauling through low). After this change the incentive will be much less to do so, since they potentially have to invest about 80-100 mil (rough current market value including LP cost) or more (after expected price increase) to even use a planet. The yield is not THAT much higher to justify that currently, even after including taxes. The only thing that is currently already quite expensive to export are P4s, so against all odds it might be worth moving those to low-sec. Export will be 100k per unit in high-sec, which is already between 10-20% of their current market value.
What I think is required in any case is the following:
- access for anyone, independent of standing, but:
- tax rates based on standings
- Alliance standings have to be usable, corps in an alliance rarely bother to maintain a second set of standings
- a good interface for managing the customs offices, preferably with the ability to set some settings for all at once (stop the clickfest!)
- courier contracts from/to POCOs
- Bigger launch cans for circumventing the POCO as a reasonably viable alternative to huge taxes
Note that the last item acts as an incentive to A) allow anyone to use the POCO (if the situation doesn't change that it can be disallowed based on standing) and B) have reasonable taxes. This should still be limited enough so that
There are also three things which I haven't seen mentioned (until page 33 at least), which baffles me somewhat: Insecure Investment: There are several risk factors involved which have been mentioned many times, like losing one's own Customs Office, the fact that it costs way too much given the expected income (return of investment and the like) and so on. But it will also give an additional insecurity when planning/investing in a new planet. It's quite a bit of work at the moment to find a worthwhile planet, after this you'll have the "needs to have customs office" as a constraint for a small-scale PI player, and in addition to that: "needs to have nice tax rate". Let's assume you find a planet that's worth using, and it even has a customs office with a nice tax rate (let's say 5%). Nothing is stopping the player from basically tax-baiting you, as soon as someone settles on the planet and builds a network, he cranks the tax up to let's say 20% in the hope he won't abandon/decommission the colony after the work he has already gone through to find it. It will probably no longer be even as profitable as a highsec planet. The tax can also rise more at any time. This fear might stop quite a few player from trying their hand at PI in low! Remote Export/Import: The most restrictive thing about PI at the moment is that it basically requires you to be in the system(s) your doing PI in at least once a day. This negates any possibility of longer excursions to WHs/0.0 or other just as distant places. This is much worse for factory planets of course, but the location dependence could be reduced a bit by introducing a skill similar to market skills allowing for remote operation of the customs office. This would also be the perfect basis for allowing courier contracts from POCOs. At the very least allow me to VIEW the contents without being in the system! I can view every hangar in all of new eden via assets, but I can't see what I have in the Customs Office one system over? Seriously??? Ninja PI without access to POCO (mentioned maybe once or twice): This will be restricted to anything which doesn't require input. Quite a few production chains can't be on a single planet or need an incredibly specific planet to work well (including some P2, most P3 and all P4). No access to the POCO means no import at all. I think I saw a (player-manufactured) launch can specific for planetary import mentioned somewhere. This sounds like a nice idea, it's cost shouldn't be too high (couple of thousand ISK maybe? just a guess) and allow a certain sized import per can (5k m-¦?). The can should be BIGGER on the outside compared to the inside to accommodate the 'landing equipment' needed (as opposed to current containers) to avoid them being used for anything other than launching stuff to a planet. |
Adamantor
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 17:47:00 -
[1270] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:THIS^^ Awww, bless, my first ever "this". I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now. :) CCP, any chance of getting corporate hangers added to the list of wants? I realise you're swamped with posts here and you're working to a deadline, so I'll just keep prodding you on this issue in the hope that it gets noticed. Some of us want to be able to do PI as a team (in lowsec, with customs offices open to neurals and defended by our small gangs).
This little change would allow a frigate to fly to a customs office, export from the planet and dump it all into the corp hangar available as shared goods. I can't agree that would be a good change for the current mechanic. The effort of flying a ship capable of carrying the goods risks that ship and requires the effort to train. I think those mechanics should remain in place, not be made easier just because you own the Customs office.
The same sharing can already be done in a POS or station via a corp hangars. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:01:00 -
[1271] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:It takes some time to anchor a gantry, and then more time to upgrade it to a customs office. How much hasn't been announced I don't think.
60 seconds to anchor, 20 seconds to bring online.
Meldan Anstian wrote:Nothing has been said about the defenses of a gantry, other than hit points. Does a gantry go into reinforcement mode like a CO? Is a gantry vulnerable while it's being upgraded? How long does it take to upgrade a gantry to a customs office? What happens if your gantry is being upgraded and then is put into reinforced mode? Does upgrading cease until RF mode ends?
They are invulnerable during anchoring but not onlining. 10,000,000 shield HP for the gantry and no RF timer. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
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Marcus Eurealus
Doomheim
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:01:00 -
[1272] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc.
I think this was already said,why not make existing POCO's vulnerable .......
..... and slow down the sudden crush as everyone runs for Concord or Faction HQ in a need to grab up the BPC's (WFT was CCP thinking only making copies and no Originals; what every time someone needs a replacemnt they get to pay 100's of Millions to someone who runs incursions or factional warfare all the time) to make a POCO to get the flow of POS Fuel Going Again .....
I forsee alot of abandon POS in High Sec, as people can no longer afford to feed Vaal ..... forcing small research outposts back to LONG Station Quques |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:02:00 -
[1273] - Quote
Adamantor wrote:rootimus maximus wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:THIS^^ Awww, bless, my first ever "this". I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now. :) CCP, any chance of getting corporate hangers added to the list of wants? I realise you're swamped with posts here and you're working to a deadline, so I'll just keep prodding you on this issue in the hope that it gets noticed. Some of us want to be able to do PI as a team (in lowsec, with customs offices open to neurals and defended by our small gangs). This little change would allow a frigate to fly to a customs office, export from the planet and dump it all into the corp hangar available as shared goods. I can't agree that would be a good change for the current mechanic. The effort of flying a ship capable of carrying the goods risks that ship and requires the effort to train. I think those mechanics should remain in place, not be made easier just because you own the Customs office. The same sharing can already be done in a POS or station via a corp hangars.
This mechanic, however, creates additional risk for the people that own the office. Defend the office or lose all of you PI in the corp hanger. Also, the PI products need to eventually get taken off, so a hauler will still be needed. The only difference is that the PI stuff in there is now corp property instead of private property. However, another problem occurs with corp roles and access to said hanger. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1276
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:09:00 -
[1274] - Quote
Would it be at all possible to code the mechanism to allow different tax rates depending on corp/alliance standings?
i.e Blue pays 5% tax neutrals pay 10% Reds pay 15%
Cuz that would just be win sauce. |
Adamantor
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:11:00 -
[1275] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Adamantor wrote:rootimus maximus wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:THIS^^ Awww, bless, my first ever "this". I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now. :) CCP, any chance of getting corporate hangers added to the list of wants? I realise you're swamped with posts here and you're working to a deadline, so I'll just keep prodding you on this issue in the hope that it gets noticed. Some of us want to be able to do PI as a team (in lowsec, with customs offices open to neurals and defended by our small gangs). This little change would allow a frigate to fly to a customs office, export from the planet and dump it all into the corp hangar available as shared goods. I can't agree that would be a good change for the current mechanic. The effort of flying a ship capable of carrying the goods risks that ship and requires the effort to train. I think those mechanics should remain in place, not be made easier just because you own the Customs office. The same sharing can already be done in a POS or station via a corp hangars. This mechanic, however, creates additional risk for the people that own the office. Defend the office or lose all of you PI in the corp hanger. Also, the PI products need to eventually get taken off, so a hauler will still be needed. The only difference is that the PI stuff in there is now corp property instead of private property. However, another problem occurs with corp roles and access to said hanger.
That's a good point but doesn't it favor larger corps, alliances and those with multiple pilots/accounts? For null sec systems that are more protected, this just makes it easier for large alliances to pool PI and haul it off with an Orca. It also lets several pilots run max efficiency PI on one planet and easily pool for manufacture on another. If you let the PI be moved to the corporate hangar remotely, you'd make it even easier to manage.
I can't see a low-sec PI scenario where an Orca is pulling up to the customs office.
I think the logistics of PI is one of the key challenges in place and any change to reduce those logistics should be seriously considered for all the impact it will have.
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Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:13:00 -
[1276] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Would it be at all possible to code the mechanism to allow different tax rates depending on corp/alliance standings?
i.e Blue pays 5% tax neutrals pay 10% Reds pay 15%
Cuz that would just be win sauce.
Pretty sure that's what the current mechanic is. See the picture related to standings in the dev blog. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:16:00 -
[1277] - Quote
Adamantor wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Adamantor wrote:rootimus maximus wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:THIS^^ Awww, bless, my first ever "this". I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now. :) CCP, any chance of getting corporate hangers added to the list of wants? I realise you're swamped with posts here and you're working to a deadline, so I'll just keep prodding you on this issue in the hope that it gets noticed. Some of us want to be able to do PI as a team (in lowsec, with customs offices open to neurals and defended by our small gangs). This little change would allow a frigate to fly to a customs office, export from the planet and dump it all into the corp hangar available as shared goods. I can't agree that would be a good change for the current mechanic. The effort of flying a ship capable of carrying the goods risks that ship and requires the effort to train. I think those mechanics should remain in place, not be made easier just because you own the Customs office. The same sharing can already be done in a POS or station via a corp hangars. This mechanic, however, creates additional risk for the people that own the office. Defend the office or lose all of you PI in the corp hanger. Also, the PI products need to eventually get taken off, so a hauler will still be needed. The only difference is that the PI stuff in there is now corp property instead of private property. However, another problem occurs with corp roles and access to said hanger. That's a good point but doesn't it favor larger corps, alliances and those with multiple pilots/accounts? For null sec systems that are more protected, this just makes it easier for large alliances to pool PI and haul it off with an Orca. It also lets several pilots run max efficiency PI on one planet and easily pool for manufacture on another. If you let the PI be moved to the corporate hangar remotely, you'd make it even easier to manage. I can't see a low-sec PI scenario where an Orca is pulling up to the customs office. I think the logistics of PI is one of the key challenges in place and any change to reduce those logistics should be seriously considered for all the impact it will have.
True. I think the point I was trying to make was that it would not be beneficial to the game to make corporate hanger on the POCO. I can see how it would greatly help those in a WH, where almost everything made from PI is going to the POS, but otherwise, not a good idea.
And I would start cracking up and laughing my hysterical crazy ganker laugh if I saw an orca on a Customs office in low-sec. FREE ORCA KILL MAIL!!!!
ps. sry about the baby threadnaught Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:18:00 -
[1278] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:
While I agree that this is a possible tactic of griefing other players, this is another reason to either have conquerable offices that you can take if this happens, at least in low-sec. However, in 0.0 space, I don't see this happening, as tax rates are tied to standings with your corp/alliance. As anyone in 0.0 space can tell you, increased taxes on planets is the least of your worries if your standings get reset.
We do agree on conquerable CO's as opposed to destructible. Way back on probably page 40 something (don't know how to check without going back through page by page) I proposed exactly that, conquerable CO's.
I think CO's in null and WH's would largely be treated the same by the players in those systems. Own them, lock em down as much as possible to make it as hard as possible for others to use resources from the planet, and don't bother with taxes on your own corp/alliance.
Someone, perhaps you, suggested that low sec be conquerable and null/WH CO's be destructible. I think it should be consistent throughout the universe, all (except high sec) destructible, or ideally in my opinion, conquerable. Don't think we should have some of each.
I definitely think that it should be conquerable CO's in WH's. Logistics are such a PITA anyway, why make more logistics required for no benefit. It makes no sense to tax yourself, and keeping other players out is clearly a priority in WH space. You still need to own and defend them, but without the additional burden of getting them PCO's moved in to a WH.
I think you can make an valid argument for either destructible and conquerable CO's in null. Me, just keep things consistent and easier all the way around, if you make them all conquerable. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:20:00 -
[1279] - Quote
Marcus Eurealus wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Midnight Hope wrote:If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??
I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc. I think this was already said,why not make existing POCO's vulnerable ....... ..... and slow down the sudden crush as everyone runs for Concord or Faction HQ in a need to grab up the BPC's (WFT was CCP thinking only making copies and no Originals; what every time someone needs a replacemnt they get to pay 100's of Millions to someone who runs incursions or factional warfare all the time) to make a POCO to get the flow of POS Fuel Going Again ..... I forsee alot of abandon POS in High Sec, as people can no longer afford to feed Vaal ..... forcing small research outposts back to LONG Station Quques
This is true, but only for a short while. Once prices go up and research POS start going offline, BPCs will rise in price, as will T2 BPCs and T2 components, ships, structures, etc. The market will eventually balance itself out. Minor inflation of the ISK is the overall picture here. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:24:00 -
[1280] - Quote
I don't want to quote a whole bunch of stuff, but I'd be just as happy if they gave us something planet-side to enable group PI. It doesn't have to be the customs office, more that this change is a good opportunity to try and get them to do :something: to improve that situation. |
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Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:27:00 -
[1281] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:
While I agree that this is a possible tactic of griefing other players, this is another reason to either have conquerable offices that you can take if this happens, at least in low-sec. However, in 0.0 space, I don't see this happening, as tax rates are tied to standings with your corp/alliance. As anyone in 0.0 space can tell you, increased taxes on planets is the least of your worries if your standings get reset.
We do agree on conquerable CO's as opposed to destructible. Way back on probably page 40 something (don't know how to check without going back through page by page) I proposed exactly that, conquerable CO's. I think CO's in null and WH's would largely be treated the same by the players in those systems. Own them, lock em down as much as possible to make it as hard as possible for others to use resources from the planet, and don't bother with taxes on your own corp/alliance. Someone, perhaps you, suggested that low sec be conquerable and null/WH CO's be destructible. I think it should be consistent throughout the universe, all (except high sec) destructible, or ideally in my opinion, conquerable. Don't think we should have some of each. I definitely think that it should be conquerable CO's in WH's. Logistics are such a PITA anyway, why make more logistics required for no benefit. It makes no sense to tax yourself, and keeping other players out is clearly a priority in WH space. You still need to own and defend them, but without the additional burden of getting them PCO's moved in to a WH. I think you can make an valid argument for either destructible and conquerable CO's in null. Me, just keep things consistent and easier all the way around, if you make them all conquerable.
One of the main reasons I suggested that is because I would like to see the division of 0.0 space and low-sec space stay there. With conquerable COs, the differentiation is still there, and it would allow high sec corps to dip their toes into low-sec for pvp and get them used to the idea of 0.0 space. The only reason I suggest destructible POCOs in null and wh's is that, much like other structures in null, they are well guarded by a home defense fleet.
Having spent a considerable amount of time in both Low-sec and 0.0, one of the main differences is the ability to get CTAs and mandatory roams up and going. A structure that can be blown up can be easily replaceable by the sov holding alliances. A couple dozen POCOs would be a drop in the bucket for a 0.0 corp. Also, it lends itself to new sov warfare tactics. Deny the enemy their POS fuel so they can't build super capital ships. Similar to actual warfare, when you cut off the enemy's supplies, you cut off the enemy's head. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:36:00 -
[1282] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:It takes some time to anchor a gantry, and then more time to upgrade it to a customs office. How much hasn't been announced I don't think. 60 seconds to anchor, 20 seconds to bring online. Meldan Anstian wrote:Nothing has been said about the defenses of a gantry, other than hit points. Does a gantry go into reinforcement mode like a CO? Is a gantry vulnerable while it's being upgraded? How long does it take to upgrade a gantry to a customs office? What happens if your gantry is being upgraded and then is put into reinforced mode? Does upgrading cease until RF mode ends? They are invulnerable during anchoring but not onlining. 10,000,000 shield HP for the gantry and no RF timer.
Ahh, some clarifying questions.
So 80 seconds to bring a gantry online. I assume I need to do something additional to make it a customs office, more than just putting in the wetware mainframes, broadcast nodes, etc in the upgrade hold and click upgrade.
As soon as I click upgrade, is it then a custom's office instantly, or is there some manufacturing/upgrade time? I assume the gantry is vulnerable during the upgrade to customs office? How long is the upgrade time?
Question for the devs, is there any reason I would not want to upgrade from a gantry to a CO?
What I'm getting at is - Does the gantry upgrade to CO process have a purpose or gameplay reason? Why not anchor and online a customs office and forget about the gantry step? |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:39:00 -
[1283] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:It takes some time to anchor a gantry, and then more time to upgrade it to a customs office. How much hasn't been announced I don't think. 60 seconds to anchor, 20 seconds to bring online. Meldan Anstian wrote:Nothing has been said about the defenses of a gantry, other than hit points. Does a gantry go into reinforcement mode like a CO? Is a gantry vulnerable while it's being upgraded? How long does it take to upgrade a gantry to a customs office? What happens if your gantry is being upgraded and then is put into reinforced mode? Does upgrading cease until RF mode ends? They are invulnerable during anchoring but not onlining. 10,000,000 shield HP for the gantry and no RF timer. Ahh, some clarifying questions. So 80 seconds to bring a gantry online. I assume I need to do something additional to make it a customs office, more than just putting in the wetware mainframes, broadcast nodes, etc in the upgrade hold and click upgrade. As soon as I click upgrade, is it then a custom's office instantly, or is there some manufacturing/upgrade time? I assume the gantry is vulnerable during the upgrade to customs office? How long is the upgrade time? Question for the devs, is there any reason I would not want to upgrade from a gantry to a CO? What I'm getting at is - Does the gantry upgrade to CO process have a purpose or gameplay reason? Why not anchor and online a customs office and forget about the gantry step?
i'm assuming that in order to online it, you must have the PI goods in the gantry... Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:59:00 -
[1284] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Would it be at all possible to code the mechanism to allow different tax rates depending on corp/alliance standings?
i.e Blue pays 5% tax neutrals pay 10% Reds pay 15%
Cuz that would just be win sauce. Pretty sure that's what the current mechanic is. See the picture related to standings in the dev blog.
no it's not, currently it allows you to set who can access it, but tax is the same for all. Have a look at that picture in the devblod again! Only one field for tax, one row for required standing... |
Shey Danu
New Eden Industrial Navy GREATER ITAMO MAFIA
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 19:19:00 -
[1285] - Quote
Ra Voreen wrote:How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ?
I want to know too - if this means that planets can be resourced to other corps and alliances without sov, it would mean a great source of income to the alliance that holds sov.. thus renters can now do PI (win for them) and the sov alliance gets more isk (win for them).
LET US KNOW! |
Karl Gabel
Industrie Holding AG DarkStorm Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 19:57:00 -
[1286] - Quote
I think from experience that the operator of the customs offices must be the holder of sovereignty, other small companies have no chance in Low Sec and npc-0.0. Hisec in the PI is not profitable as the alternative planetary launches. These allow for little charge at a high cost. Since many additional accounts will be operated mainly for for it, it will again cost ccp some accounts.
Irrelevant Unfortunately, currently done mainly improvements in PvP and in favor of large companies, Which makes the game but for people outside the leadership of these becoming increasingly, unless you walk with you.
Ccp @ omen: different opinions: please read also the German Channel http://www.eveger.de/forum/showthread.php?t=41847 |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:19:00 -
[1287] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:As earlier mentioned, I was working on compiling a list of concerns with the current design of Player-owned Customs Offices (PCO). I am posting this list here, please have a look if I have missed anything important there. Please note that I compiled this list regardless if I think the concerns are valid or not and especially regardless if those concerns are indeed valid or not. If you perceive something as a serious problem, then it should be in this list. If it is not, please notify me. Please remember also that most of the people like the idea of more industry options, a more player governed game world with fewer artificial NPC interaction. There are also many people who like specifically the proposed changes. But this is not the topic of this list. The responsible Dev team is really happy to have all your good and valuable feedback!
- User Interface not good enough
- Not enough flexibility at setting taxes for the different standing levels. Player suggestion here.
- Timestamp of tax collection in corp wallet could be used to collect intel on people doing PI.
- Tax management bad for large entities, necessary to include alliance level also.
- Finding GÇ£suitableGÇ¥ PCOs without going from system to system near impossible.
- Advertising tax rate for PCO and checking for competitors extremely difficult.
Problems during transition period No BPCs available before wipe of the existing Customs Offices, transition becomes very difficult. Disruption of PI due to the transition might become a major problem. Lack of Gantries and PCOs during the transition Lowsec changes caters only griefing Lowsec will get devastated since every random group can bust PCOs without drawback Risk/Reward in Lowsec is completely wrong, no good enough profit from PI in Lowsec. Nullsec changes only good for blobs and large groups Shuts out small groups from 0.0 as they canGÇÖt compete with big blobs Large 0.0 alliances will never allow independent small groups (as seen in the past) PCO owners wonGÇÖt allow access of neutrals, this encourages only big blobs Supercap blob heaven shooting up those defenceless structures Bad effects on other industries PI prices will increase drastically, affecting POS owners heavily, making it more difficult for the small/new people Wormholes Reinforcement timer in Wormholes too long for roaming gangs to do any serious damage Transition in Wormholes will be especially difficult without prior BPC release Wormhole corporations will lock out everyone else, no Ninja-PI possible Transport rocket from player surface is not large enough to prevent being locked out from planets P4 producers are especially hit hard when no PCO is around, rocket wonGÇÖt help here Pricelevels are off, PCOs will be unprofitable PCOs will be unprofitable and not worth the invested time and especially ISK Income from PCOs will be too low to justify the build costs and risk deploying them Taxrate will be either near 0 or near 100 Taxes in Highsec for P4 products too high Worries about general mechanics Only one PCO per planet is not good enough and hinders competition. Too big changes with not enough thoughts being put into the resulting effects on the sandbox as whole Defenceless PCOs are bad and encourage random griefing and no GÇÿconstructiveGÇÖ destruction Change of playstyle to more blobbing and griefing, hurting small people Encourages blobbing Discourages small gang warfare Hurts the small people most, benefits large blobs most Encourages griefing a lot as there is no risk in attacking PCOs Easy griefing PCOs discourages constructive gameplay Giving away control to people who do not really care about it GÇô heavy grief play results. Lowsec/Nullsec exclusively for corps and alliances only now More boring structure shooting and grinding Extremely asymmetric , catering to the attackers and griefers Forces people into corporations if they want to do PCO, big change of playstyle Bad for casual gameplay Hurts the casual player since they normally wonGÇÖt get the required corp roles to deploy PCOs PI changes from low risk, low income to high risk, very boring, medium income Why roles at all for POCs? That only hurts casual games without roles Details of the structures Size of the gantry is bad, it doesnGÇÖt fit into all racial blockade runners. Either make it small enough to fit into all blockade runners or large enough that it doesnGÇÖt fit into any runner List updates marked in italics.
The lack of mention related to anything pertaining to Tier 4 Advanced Commodities rocket payload capacity increase and/or Command Center Upgrades skill level bonus to increase m3 volume of rocket payloads (at the very minimum regarding P4 planets) is highly concerning. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:27:00 -
[1288] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote: A few hundred posts in the thread ago, I calculated that it's about 6 times (from memory, exact number may be different) more expensive tax wise to export a unit of robotics, than it is to export all the processed materials to make a unit of robotics. So the obvious incentive is to import low level materials into the lowest tax planet around and manufacture higher level commodities, most likely in high sec.
That's an artifact of the already existing issue where tax rates on the different tiers have too much of a variance. - Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate). - P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate - P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate - P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate - P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate So under the existing tariff schedule, P0 and P4 (and P3) are a lot more sensitive to tariff rate changes then the P1/P2 because they pay a higher percentage of their value in taxes then the other tiers. Basically, the P1/P2 tariffs are about 5x too low when compared to the others and P4 tariffs are about 2x too large. Smoothing that out prior to release would help POCOs on planets used for P1 harvesting to have a far better payback period (5x shorter if the base tariff is raised 5x). And the P2 factory worlds would end up on an even footing with the P3 factory worlds. On the more controversial side - I think hi-sec, NPC-owned, POCOs need to charge a lot more then the proposed 10% tariff rate (50-75% tariff would not be out of line). The 10% tariff rate is too low and makes lo-sec or NPC null-sec POCOs unable to compete at all economically. As you point out, why take the risk with anything higher then P2 in lo-sec when you can just pay a 10% tariff in hi-sec? But if hi-sec has higher tariffs, then there need to be (a) reduction in fees if you have high standings with the NPC faction that controls that region and (b) a skill that reduces POCO tariffs. If hi-sec POCOs charge 70% for zero-standings and zero-skill, then at 10.0 standings it should drop to 60% and with the level V skill trained it could drop as low as 50%.
TL;DR (fully)
However, there's a problem with all these numbers being thrown around.
Tax/Tarif rates are based off of CCP's internal benchmark price for commodities. And therefore it is impossible for us to calculate accurate tarif rates on our own.
Please keep that in mind. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:30:00 -
[1289] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote: A few hundred posts in the thread ago, I calculated that it's about 6 times (from memory, exact number may be different) more expensive tax wise to export a unit of robotics, than it is to export all the processed materials to make a unit of robotics. So the obvious incentive is to import low level materials into the lowest tax planet around and manufacture higher level commodities, most likely in high sec.
That's an artifact of the already existing issue where tax rates on the different tiers have too much of a variance. - Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate). - P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate - P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate - P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate - P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate So under the existing tariff schedule, P0 and P4 (and P3) are a lot more sensitive to tariff rate changes then the P1/P2 because they pay a higher percentage of their value in taxes then the other tiers. Basically, the P1/P2 tariffs are about 5x too low when compared to the others and P4 tariffs are about 2x too large. Smoothing that out prior to release would help POCOs on planets used for P1 harvesting to have a far better payback period (5x shorter if the base tariff is raised 5x). And the P2 factory worlds would end up on an even footing with the P3 factory worlds. On the more controversial side - I think hi-sec, NPC-owned, POCOs need to charge a lot more then the proposed 10% tariff rate (50-75% tariff would not be out of line). The 10% tariff rate is too low and makes lo-sec or NPC null-sec POCOs unable to compete at all economically. As you point out, why take the risk with anything higher then P2 in lo-sec when you can just pay a 10% tariff in hi-sec? But if hi-sec has higher tariffs, then there need to be (a) reduction in fees if you have high standings with the NPC faction that controls that region and (b) a skill that reduces POCO tariffs. If hi-sec POCOs charge 70% for zero-standings and zero-skill, then at 10.0 standings it should drop to 60% and with the level V skill trained it could drop as low as 50%. Tax rates in high-sec are being increased, however, not nearly as much as you are saying. the increase of 50% is plenty and will still make PI available to newer players (ie a 6% tax will increase to a 9% tax, which isn't a small amount of ISK considering that base PI prices will rise). As a member of EveUni, I think you would know the merit of helping players that have under 3 million skill points make a little bit of extra ISK here and there.
Correction the increase is 'DOUBLE' and therefore 100% ... not half. |
Daedalus II
Helios Research Combat Mining and Logistics
103
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:33:00 -
[1290] - Quote
Just going to throw this out there:
What if we keep the customs offices as they are today; invulnerable and under NPC control.
But instead we add a structure that you can anchor in the system (similar stats, price and defense as the player-owned customs office), and once online it will "take over" the NPC control of all customs offices in that system, giving you the ability to set tax rate and access. When there is no such building the customs offices just revert back to normal NPC operation (10% tax and access for everyone).
By having it this way you make it more worth to build it (get taxes from more sources for the same construction cost), and easier to defend. Maybe even allow it to be anchored next to a POS? It also doesn't disrupt current operation as much as there will always be customs offices available even if no one has built this structure. |
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:38:00 -
[1291] - Quote
pmchem wrote:CCP Phantom wrote: Please remember that there are a lot of good ideas in this thread also. You folks bring really constructive feedback!
As I posted here ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=208048#post208048 ) -- Having taxes set as a percent is NOT the way to do this. It works in real life because it's a percent of what the goods are being sold for. But CCP doesn't know what the goods are selling for, unless you float the item's base tax price daily according to a jita average. You are using some arbitrary value that will eventually (if not immediately) be totally inaccurate, on which people base a tax rate. It makes no sense, because you could have people wanting to set taxes to be, say, 300% in order to get a reasonable fraction of value for a plasma planet. Allowing the POCO owner to set a straight up isk per m3 tax would make more sense. It's makes cost immediately clear to the user, it encourages users to have more complex setups on a planet instead of exporting raws or p1s, and it would encourage people to produce the most profitable products per p3 at a given tier, which is a user demand-driven market driver instead of driving the market based on some weird base tax value CCP creates.
This risks serious potential inflation, and removes CCP's ability to act as a regulator in assisting run away economic situations.
While this post is not a 'for or against' CCP's ability to regulate economic activity behind the scenes, I thought it was worth pointing out that in doing something like this, there would be a loss of 'regulatory' control to act as a throttle of otherwise unrestricted economic activity in the Market. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:42:00 -
[1292] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:rootimus maximus wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:List of concerns and whines A hefty chunk of that list comes down to people whining because of change, whining because they'll have to work with other people in a multiplayer game, whining because they might have PvP forced on them in lowsec, whining because they don't have a clue about markets and whining because they can't plan ahead. The whine about some of the blockade runners not being able to fit a gantry was extra whiney. Still, I'm sure the EU has a huge pile of surplus cheese somewhere and this could be a great way to get rid of it. I hope the dev team are extremely judicious in ignoring that nonsense and concentrating on the very valid concerns that have been raised in the thread. As it stands, the changes are going to be good for non-whiners, but with some attention paid to the genuine shortcomings it could be excellent. Will there be a new list that shows the appropriate counters? THIS^^ Cloaky hauler too small? Tough ****. Want to name the POCO? Too bad. Don't want to go to PVP? Don't go to low-sec. Some of the whine here has an excellent year, I recommend some nicely aged gouda or perhaps some brie and toast points.
I'm dissapointed with the cloaky hauler reference...
New game features shouldn't break other game mechanics - either increasing the footprint or decreasing it so cloaky either works as intended or doesn't work at all re: POCO's isn't whining.
Pointing it out was just raising a flag on a potential issue. |
Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:43:00 -
[1293] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:If you perceive something as a serious problem, then it should be in this list. If it is not, please notify me. Having the spaceport hangar being gone is fairly drastic IMO. Cargo structures are fairly useless (don't hold anything at all) and command centers can't be moved to a location with shorter travel distance (less pg/cpu use on links) without destroying everything.
|
Ambassadeur Ur-Shulgi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:51:00 -
[1294] - Quote
This is a FAIL change.
PI = bad ISK (can be okey side income in WHs) = changes (will bring more RISK, more Effort) = Worse ISK payout for time spend doing it today = NOT WORTH DOING..
I applaude you CCP for making DUST 514 an even larger FAIL then it allready is...... |
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:57:00 -
[1295] - Quote
I have some questions to the developers:
- Why tie PCOs to corporations? What would be the downside of leaving this in the hands of each individual player?
- What is the reasoning behind the rather steep pricing scheme?
- Why not scale down both in order to target a crowd operating at a lower level?
- Why restrict construction to BPCs?
- It was announced that low-sec and 0.0 should be made more attractive and accessible to single player and few player setups, is that no longer a priority?
- Is there a clear definition of the role and/or target group PI should have in the future?
Things I like about the PCOs as announced:
- Player controlled content promotes the sandbox principle.
- Many people considered PI rather dull up until now, more complexity might spur up more interest.
These are the things I'm most sceptical about (mildly put):
- Corporation involvement: It promotes either large scale operations (your BIG corp takes care of the PCOs and you can then do the PI as a corp sponsored activity) or specialization (setting up your own corp just for PI and PCOs) or restriction to high-sec if the first two options are not viable. Therefore it effectively restricts the possible scenarios in which PI can be used and especially hinders all kinds of solo and few-people operations in NPC-0.0 and low-sec in contradiction to recently published roadmaps.
- Pricing!!! The proposed pricing scale moves low-sec PI far beyond the reach of any beginner character. As many responses show, even experienced players are be seriously deterred.
- Grinding on stationary targets with big EHP: Again this strongly contradicts a bunch of design goals published by your guys. There should be other, more creative ways to exert pressure, than just blowing stuff up! There are tons of other attack modes I can think of, just to name a few:
- Boarding: Have Infantry units board the PCO for a temporary takeover, if no one shows up after some time period X, the PCO is yours. Implementation could be as simple as dropping Soldiers into the hangar window of the structure from your cargohold or as elaborate as introducing a docking module (leaving your ship stuck to the PCO during troop deployment) or boarding shuttles launches from the drone bay (similar to mining drones in functionality). Either way this will take time, could be risky and could even offer some rewards.
- Siege: Maybe you can't blow it up, but maybe shooting at it might delay deliveries or even damage sensitive high tech equipment stored inside. After waiting weeks for his deliveries to finish even the most timid carebear might get angry enough to gather some friends to go out there and settle things. If you blew his PCO into pieces he might just cry and never come back, but as long as his PCO is not gone for good and plenty of product for him to collect there is always a reason left to come back and fight.
- Hacking: Have some hacking module (that does not fit onto an industrial) disable or change the tax settings for a limited time window or even grant access to other players storage. "Damn, someone hacked into my PCO, we have to get out there and fix this before they [leave without paying their taxes|clear out my storage]".
- Bribery: With the right amount of money, the right social skills and the right (probably illegal) goods the customs officers might make a one time exception and wave your load of wetware mainframes right through. This option might even have a chance to go unnoticed by the owner of the PCO. And the owner in return could possibly counteract this by frequent personal visits, the proper skills and whatnot.
All in all I think there is great potential in handing over customs offices to the players, but the way the system has been announced so far simply sounds like a bunch of damn expsensive sitting ducks that will end up in a niche role behind the home defense forces of big alliances. |
Ambassadeur Ur-Shulgi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:57:00 -
[1296] - Quote
Daedalus II wrote:Just going to throw this out there:
What if we keep the customs offices as they are today; invulnerable and under NPC control.
But instead we add a structure that you can anchor in the system (similar stats, price and defense as the player-owned customs office), and once online it will "take over" the NPC control of all customs offices in that system, giving you the ability to set tax rate and access. When there is no such building the customs offices just revert back to normal NPC operation (10% tax and access for everyone).
By having it this way you make it more worth to build it (get taxes from more sources for the same construction cost), and easier to defend. Maybe even allow it to be anchored next to a POS? It also doesn't disrupt current operation as much as there will always be customs offices available even if no one has built this structure.
That would probably be a better way too do it.. As it is now why even bother?? In low sec, still crappy planets, only retards would setup a customs office there.. Orbit launch will take away anny income you might want to have... Most People who do PI in low sec to Orbit launch as its safer ( or atleast the smart people that I know) and 0,0 Will just set 0% tax to be nice or set a high tax to fatten a few people just like MOON mining works today, the avrage pilot(player) has litte to nothing to gain from this change... WH corps might build them if they feel they can protect them or just use the Orbit launch instead for safty...
CCP this is EPIC FAIL.... |
Ambassadeur Ur-Shulgi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 23:05:00 -
[1297] - Quote
1 Player controlled content promotes the sandbox principle. Not if the sandbox is not worth doing 2 Many people considered PI rather dull up until now, more complexity might spur up more interest. No it will not Interest will go down, as Higher RISK for same reward will put it on the back list if you comapare it to more Lucrative things you might be doing Instead...
People will always do " MOST profit for the least amount of effort and risk" that is why most of EVEs population is in highsec... |
Dravidshky
Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 23:19:00 -
[1298] - Quote
Max Von Sydow wrote:Not sure if already suggested but couldn't you let the current custom offices stay where they are but make them destructible and give them less HP than the POCOs and no RF timer, so that people wont be forced to get a POCO for every planet but at the same time, some enemies could show up and easily destroy the old custom offices to mess with the locals. Give them low enough HP so that a small fleet of SBs can destroy one in a few minutes making it fairly easy to get rid of them.
I like this idea since it at least then the current COs wouldn't just vanish over DT. |
Princess Cellestia
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
107
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 23:43:00 -
[1299] - Quote
Honestly in 0.0 they should just leave the COs as they are but attach them to the sov mechanics some how. Because as it stands most corps/alliances are just going to look at all the planets they'd have to screw with and say forget it. They aren't going to pay out the ass for these things since they're going to be so damn rare it isn't funny. CO's are going to be rare as hell, expensive and this whole mess is going to kill production of anything over tier 1 in null. Unless there's going to be some magical new way to get basic materials down to a planet. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 00:24:00 -
[1300] - Quote
Ambassadeur Ur-Shulgi wrote:
That would probably be a better way too do it.. As it is now why even bother?? In low sec, still crappy planets, only retards would setup a customs office there.. Orbit launch will take away anny income you might want to have... Most People who do PI in low sec to Orbit launch as its safer ( or atleast the smart people that I know) and 0,0 Will just set 0% tax to be nice or set a high tax to fatten a few people just like MOON mining works today, the avrage pilot(player) has litte to nothing to gain from this change... WH corps might build them if they feel they can protect them or just use the Orbit launch instead for safty...
CCP this is EPIC FAIL....
Orbital launch only allows 500 m3 of goods to be launched at a time. Very limited in how much you can launch compared to using a CO. It's also impossible to import anything to the planet in the case of a WH. This makes it impossible to build many items that require more than 1 planet type to produce. This would be a problem in WH's.
I do PI in low sec all the time and I use a CO. Warp in to a safe spot and dscan to see if the CO has anyone there. If there is, come back later. Have yet to see anyone camping a CO. The "smart" people who severely limit their production to avoid 5 seconds of vulnerability at a CO, perhaps aren't so smart. It's safer than jumping through a low sec gate. |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1027
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 00:33:00 -
[1301] - Quote
Dragnkat wrote:BTW i'd love to hear how any small scale corp or the screwed over ninja PI'ers are going to field a fleet to take on those cap ships you expect to come a nibbling.
Supercaps die in low sec more often than you'd expect. Get news about a super cap being tackled, pirates and FW folks will come from tens of jumps away just for a chance to get on the killmail - especially pertinent now that implants are to be included in the gory details.
Dragnkat wrote:News flash this is EVE, and if there's one thing I've learned about this game it's if you can screw someone over, lock someone out, deny someone a resource, or grief because you can (waves to goons in ice fields) players can and WILL do it. And anyone expecting someone to just open up a PCO for neuts out of the goodness of their heart is a complete and utter moron. Same for anyone who would let others into their space for PI to drain resources and intel gather.
Chribba opened up an outpost out of philanthropic altruism. Look what happened when that got attacked.
There is plenty of scope in this game for griefers to set up PCOs purely for the purpose of baiting super capital fleets. If you ask nicely, I'm sure they'll let you use their facility since you'll be funding their PvP.
The coming experiment will show that planetary or orbital defences are an absolute necessity: even if such a defence is a shield generator on the surface which requires either orbital bombardment or a DUST invasion to shut down. The sad truth of the matter is that any sufficiently determined null sec alliance will be able to wipe out all low sec customs offices as a matter of routine. Unless the purpose of PI is to hand income to null sec on a silver platter, balance requires some means of preventing capital fleets taking away your CO like a thief in the night. A reinforcement timer is not the answer.
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 01:39:00 -
[1302] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Correction the increase is 'DOUBLE' and therefore 100% ... not half.
CCP has said numerous times that under the current planned tariff scheme, the existing tariffs that we pay today would be equivalent to a 5% tariff setting on the new POCOs. So if you pay 9 ISK to export under today's Customs Office, you would also be paying 9 ISK to export under the future POCOs if they leave them at the 5% setting.
That tariff setting can be set anywhere between 0% and 100% so the "full" 100% tariff planned by CCP is 20x more expensive then the current tariff rates and that hi-sec Customs Offices will be set at a 10% tariff.
(TL:DR; P1/P2 proposed tariffs are 5x too low, P4 proposed tariff needs a 50% cut and hi-sec POCOs need to use at least a 40-60% tariff in order to make the lo-sec POCOs more appealing.) |
Zarazor Haargrim
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 02:39:00 -
[1303] - Quote
CCP:
Reading the blog and various comments here, I simply cannot see that this plan will work in low sec at all, regardless of any settings that can be arranged for blues, reds or if the POCO can be taken over rather than destroyed.
The majority of the community simply has no use for low sec other than PI. Thus it is simply not worth their while to have a defensive fleet available or even within reasonable range. This is a gift from the heavens for griefers.
Best Case Scenario:
The POCO can be taken over and not destroyed, taxes are capped at (hypothetically) 20%, POCO cannot be completely barred from other players, *and* the player has a lot of isk to burn.
PI industrialist realises he has no hope of keeping the POCO however is determined to use lowsec for PI, so simply drops the 200-400m ISK module on each of his lowsec planets. Local pirates notice/scan down POCO within the day and have it reinforced and then taken over. Pirate group sets tax to max of 20% for all non blues. Industrialist can now use POCO at risk of being camped in.
** TL-DR - player has paid 3B+ for modules he was inevitably going to lose, and is now paying 20% tax for the privelege of using them.
Just how does this make any economic sense whatsoever? It would make far more sense to simply pile up 3-4B and purchase a few years worth of solid commodities and say screw it, i'm only likely to play for another year so this will do it.
The end result will most likely be simply that lowsec becomes even less populated than at present - and that is some feat.
And yes, i'm going to roll out the 'likely' subscriptions lost. This could be the last straw for some who are borderline.
Basically a CCP initiated 'POSageddon'.
Problem: Lowsec isn't populated enough
CCP Solution: Make it more difficult to use.
Edit: The theory of this plan is really good, in the real world it would be great. Unfortunately it simply doesn't take into account player nature in New Eden in the least. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 03:42:00 -
[1304] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Correction the increase is 'DOUBLE' and therefore 100% ... not half.
CCP has said numerous times that under the current planned tariff scheme, the existing tariffs that we pay today would be equivalent to a 5% tariff setting on the new POCOs. So if you pay 9 ISK to export under today's Customs Office, you would also be paying 9 ISK to export under the future POCOs if they leave them at the 5% setting. That tariff setting can be set anywhere between 0% and 100% so the "full" 100% tariff planned by CCP is 20x more expensive then the current tariff rates and that hi-sec Customs Offices will be set at a 10% tariff. (TL:DR; P1/P2 proposed tariffs are 5x too low, P4 proposed tariff needs a 50% cut and hi-sec POCOs need to use at least a 40-60% tariff in order to make the lo-sec POCOs more appealing.)
We're saying the same thing:
5% - 10% (Doubling)
4M ISK export - 8M ISK Export (Doubling) of P4 Commodity like OMA's
Both are a 100% Increase. (not a 100% tarif) |
Lan Trobair
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 04:00:00 -
[1305] - Quote
Quote:Customs Offices in High Sec will remain under the authority of CONCORD who will, in turn, charge doubled import and export taxes.
So in essence, CONCORD will be raising taxes on the working poor?! |
Paski
Alchemy Enterprises Corporation
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 04:24:00 -
[1306] - Quote
personally I am just annoyed at this whole thing
after all the hassles recently and the mea culpa from CCP high command to release this with the arrogance and lack of forethought shows me that it will take a while before the words are put into action
how hard would it have been to put this forward as a discussion thread rather than an announcement how hard would it have been to put a bit of thought into how this negatively impacts low sec dynamics how hard would it have been to have a thought for the smaller player
answer, not hard at all
CCP seemed to have come so far recently and then Dev idiot pops up with this ill prepared idea, I am sure (I hope) changes will be made, but it could have been handled so much more professionaly
guys, lift your game, your leaders seem to have, about time you do to |
Lolmer
Yahoo Inc Caffeine Nicotine and Hate
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 06:17:00 -
[1307] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:POCOs need to be nameable - just like POS towers.
(They also need the ability to base taxes on standings, as has been suggested multiple times.) no, they don't need to be nameable....
Yes it does, it's our structure. If CONCORD (CCP) does not want us naming these structures then they need to put up their own structures instead. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 07:46:00 -
[1308] - Quote
Princess Cellestia wrote:Honestly in 0.0 they should just leave the COs as they are but attach them to the sov mechanics some how. Because as it stands most corps/alliances are just going to look at all the planets they'd have to screw with and say forget it. They aren't going to pay out the ass for these things since they're going to be so damn rare it isn't funny. CO's are going to be rare as hell, expensive and this whole mess is going to kill production of anything over tier 1 in null. Unless there's going to be some magical new way to get basic materials down to a planet.
It's already tied to sov mechanics. You can't put a CC on a planet if you're not in the alliance that holds sov. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 07:47:00 -
[1309] - Quote
Lolmer wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:POCOs need to be nameable - just like POS towers.
(They also need the ability to base taxes on standings, as has been suggested multiple times.) no, they don't need to be nameable.... Yes it does, it's our structure. If CONCORD (CCP) does not want us naming these structures then they need to put up their own structures instead.
Not sure if trolling....or just stupid.... Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Soro Harbon
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 08:06:00 -
[1310] - Quote
Will you be able to set up PI without having a POCO.
If so whats to stop you from anchoring a poco to extract it and then unanchoring until next time. If you find an unfriendly poco blast it and put your own up to retrieve your products.
Not done a lot of PI so not sure if you could store enough planet side to make this approach worthwhile.
Might work in wh?? Things can always be improved: the battered Mars Bar, Scotland's other culinary delicacy
|
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Olas Overmind
Axial tilt Imperius Legio Victrix
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 10:41:00 -
[1311] - Quote
I saw a few people asking when this would come into effect, but if there was an answer, I have missed it.
So, when will it come into effect? |
Zarazor Haargrim
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 10:59:00 -
[1312] - Quote
Soro Harbon wrote:Will you be able to set up PI without having a POCO.
If so whats to stop you from anchoring a poco to extract it and then unanchoring until next time. If you find an unfriendly poco blast it and put your own up to retrieve your products.
Not done a lot of PI so not sure if you could store enough planet side to make this approach worthwhile.
Might work in wh??
Thats actually a really interesting idea.
1 - yes, you can set up PI without a POCO. 2 - The anchoring times would drive you crazy, but I imagine it might work, barring a few small problems:
Its not exactly the spirit of the whole POCO thing (though it is very inventive ) Depending on the size of the POCO, forget a blockade runner, this would make it very hard for low sec. What happens if someone else drops a POCO on your planet while you are away, and bars it to you?
Re volumes of mats: you can store 10,000m3 of mats per launchpad. I generally have 2 on each planet so you can definitely store enough to make it worthwhile. |
Aphatasis
Evoke. Ev0ke
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 11:05:00 -
[1313] - Quote
If it already got raised i'm sry for asking again. Have read the dev post of the first 20 pages and then stopped.
Let's do some math:
Well, let's set up the building cost of an Custom Office to about 100m ISK in total - BPC bought throught contracts will cost about 40m ISK (cause i'm very sure most ppl who want to do PI in Nullsec aren't doing this much HighSec Incursions and that's the only way to get ever any Concord LP cause i think just 5 of some hundret non-highsec-incursion got finished until now) - A single Capital Ship construction and the 71 P4 products will be about 60m ISK (P4 product prices from the weeks before that DevBlog)
Next step, getting the ISK a corp will get from the tax: I'll take me and about 3 friends of mine as a example. We are as we could get the only ppl doing PI in a certain System, let's add about 2 other unknown guys. Everyone of this 6 ppl is doing with about 2 Chars and 5 Planets per character PI. As very very common, most ppl just export the P1 or P2 products and ether sell it directly or have a single planet in highsec near a trading hub to procced all their nullsec p1/p2 stuff to p3 or maybe p4. So we have about 60 colonies in that special system and also say that these colonies are just spread out about 7 planet in this specific system. That will mean there is a cost of about 700m ISK (don't count the effort u need for bringing all this to work!) Also say the owner-corp will tax about 15%. That 60 Colonies are able to get out about 50,4k units of p1 products of all kinds per day. With todays export cost of 0,76 ISK per unit of p1 goods this will result in about 115k ISK taxes the corp will get per day from this 700m investment. That means after about 16,7 years the corp setting up will get to a turning point of making profit with it!
Sry won't happen this way!
People in corps with a high level of trust and resulting in being someone with a lot of roles/titles or a director position in a corp will set up some custom offices just to not switch all things these ppl worked out for their PI-production lines. These ppl will pay the cost from their own wallets and neither their corp nor their alliance will take care if the custom office will leave reinforcement and will be get killed.
That's the reason why i just read about at least 3 ppl wanting to set up the custom office for they privatly and not for there corp, cause they surely know their corp won't care about this. That's by the way no reason to join another corp for nearly every part time loyal member or serious spy.
Why? Cause you (CCP) will always forget that nearly EVERY major alliance takes take about the huge amount of grunts but not of some single ppl or just a bunch of ppl doing something different to get the money. That means: Getting space for farming anomalies is maybe something on the agenda of alliance leadership IF there is a possibility to get this "good true sec space" but most alliance will NOT start a war just for getting their grunts better true sec systems. The same with custom offices. I'm 95% sure that nearly all custom office that will be sent to RF won't get any attanchen from the defender and it's just up for the attacker to be bored enough to commit any forces again to destroy it.
Something i read on (i think) page 12 or 13: Robotics got a price of 6k ISK per Unit. Did u check jita in the last year? We already have the awesome thing of dynamic balancing of insurance-prices. Why not just simply do the same with the PI stuff and just tax these values?
Some more thinkings: Well there will be some planets like special Plasma, Lava and Ocean ones worth setting up a Custom Office, but mostly PI in Nullsec will be done in the staging systems of ppl regardless if there are much better planets 2 jumps out or the combination of planets there is much better. They do this just because the effort of flying around and the risk it not worth it. They launch there PI goods and get them to station after getting home from roaming or a fleet fight or just when they add new skills to the queue.
I also very highly like the idea fo different tax for different groups (corp, alliance, +10'ish ppl and so on). With this possibility it will make sense in my opinion to remove the "only ppl of the sov hoalding alliance are able to set up NEW colonies".
TL;DR: Bolded some parts for the ppl don't want to read all.
My english isn't the best, hope everyone gets at least the main messages i wanted to raise.
#1 Sry forgot something: The idea behind this, that u will hand over more and more of EVE to the players and by this make the sandbox bigger is great! But it feels again that u don't realy know the ways EVE is played by the ppl that affect the changes! And please stop thinking that the CSM member are all realy playing EVE the same way as their grunts do! I'm very sure if u ask all CSM member how much involved they are with PI most of them will tell u "tried once, do it maybe once a week but most time don't think about it!". Also ask Mr Mittani about how willingly he is to force his ppl to grind through more structures after they invaded space and had to show up for about 200 timers just to get SOV.
#2 Also forgot this: Thx CCP Omen for your nerves and answering so many questions in this thread! GÖÑ |
Soro Harbon
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 11:52:00 -
[1314] - Quote
Zarazor Haargrim wrote:Soro Harbon wrote:Will you be able to set up PI without having a POCO.
If so whats to stop you from anchoring a poco to extract it and then unanchoring until next time. If you find an unfriendly poco blast it and put your own up to retrieve your products.
Not done a lot of PI so not sure if you could store enough planet side to make this approach worthwhile.
Might work in wh?? Thats actually a really interesting idea. 1 - yes, you can set up PI without a POCO. 2 - The anchoring times would drive you crazy, but I imagine it might work, barring a few small problems: Its not exactly the spirit of the whole POCO thing (though it is very inventive ) Depending on the size of the POCO, forget a blockade runner, this would make it very hard for low sec. What happens if someone else drops a POCO on your planet while you are away, and bars it to you? Re volumes of mats: you can store 10,000m3 of mats per launchpad. I generally have 2 on each planet so you can definitely store enough to make it worthwhile.
Thats why I was thinking of WH so it was on your doorstep to watch over/defend/blow up interloper's poco's and/or negotiate a good rate of tax if they are not just griefing you and a decent deal can be done.
Maybe I could invite you into our wh and let you use our planets at a fraction of concord's tax rate
Things can always be improved: the battered Mars Bar, Scotland's other culinary delicacy
|
Bock Uisen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 12:02:00 -
[1315] - Quote
Zarazor Haargrim wrote:The end result will most likely be simply that lowsec becomes even less populated than at present - and that is some feat.
......
Basically a CCP initiated 'POSageddon'.
Problem: Lowsec isn't populated enough
CCP Solution: Make it more difficult to use.
That's my conclusion.
I moved to Low-Sec for PI as the profit was worth the risk, and losing a 100M+ ship from time to time is acceptable.
In the future, I'll pack out of Low-Sec, as my sector is Fw + Pirates + Goons roaming... so I do not give 1h of life expectancy to any undefended structure in any of the systems I work in (and no merc corp will defend that space to become targets to those roamers).
Haters gonna hate... and Grievers gonna have great time... shooting the only thing remaining in space, as there will be even less traffic in Low-Sec than currently. They will shoot the Customs, to try to draw targets out. Only real question to CCP is the %age of goods produced in Low-Sec currently, as this market source is going to dry.
I have no problem over fighting over the control of the Customs, which makes it a source of passive income for the Low-Sec lords (and link it BOTH WAYS to Sovereignty in Null), but having a chance of barring production from others will make PI in Low-Sec disappear, increasing the cost of PI goods again, closing POS across the board as they will again be more expensive.
Will people leave ? surely not, but inflation is the future, as Null produces for Null and High-Sec is overcrowded already... all actions on PI will make a direct action on prices of everything. But perhaps it is one more move from the Null-CSM that wants to add PI-goo to the current Moon-goo monies, and to do so, they need to kill the only competition. Corporate greed ?
Time will see, but that is a blow to Low-Sec, to try to push people to Dust514... My prediction will be that it is back to normal in 12-18 months after Dust settles back to nothingness. Then we'll be back to FiS.
p.s.: meanwhile, I have years of stockpiles of PI goods, so I'll make a lot of monies :) |
Zarazor Haargrim
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 12:34:00 -
[1316] - Quote
Soro Harbon wrote:Zarazor Haargrim wrote:Soro Harbon wrote:Will you be able to set up PI without having a POCO.
If so whats to stop you from anchoring a poco to extract it and then unanchoring until next time. If you find an unfriendly poco blast it and put your own up to retrieve your products.
Not done a lot of PI so not sure if you could store enough planet side to make this approach worthwhile.
Might work in wh?? Thats actually a really interesting idea. 1 - yes, you can set up PI without a POCO. 2 - The anchoring times would drive you crazy, but I imagine it might work, barring a few small problems: Its not exactly the spirit of the whole POCO thing (though it is very inventive ) Depending on the size of the POCO, forget a blockade runner, this would make it very hard for low sec. What happens if someone else drops a POCO on your planet while you are away, and bars it to you? Re volumes of mats: you can store 10,000m3 of mats per launchpad. I generally have 2 on each planet so you can definitely store enough to make it worthwhile. Thats why I was thinking of WH so it was on your doorstep to watch over/defend/blow up interloper's poco's and/or negotiate a good rate of tax if they are not just griefing you and a decent deal can be done. Maybe I could invite you into our wh and let you use our planets at a fraction of concord's tax rate
In a wormhole it would certainly make sense, in addition to being another focal point for invasion etc.
P.S. that is the kind of negotiation that I suspect CCP is counting on, and makes a great deal of sense, unfortunately it won't happen (much) in lowsec!
Also if a genuine offer I just might be interested |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 13:11:00 -
[1317] - Quote
Zarazor Haargrim wrote:In a wormhole it would certainly make sense, in addition to being another focal point for invasion etc. P.S. that is the kind of negotiation that I suspect CCP is counting on, and makes a great deal of sense, unfortunately it won't happen (much) in lowsec! Also if a genuine offer I just might be interested
Bah, these things are worthless in wormholes... they add nothing to the game. Any wormhole corp that taxes it's own members for the PI they do, which often is used to supply the corp with some pos fuel, isn't worth being in in the first place. All they'll be is something to rep up on occassion because some dillweed thought it would be funny to put one in reinforced while you were offline, or worse... a major pain in the ass to people moving into new holes that may have these things littering planets they want to use for PI. The time and effort you'd have to waste to clear them and plant your own... yeah, hooray CCP. We need more grind just to function. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Sierra Hotel
Fusion Death Inc. Eternal Evocations
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 13:37:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Here's another suggestion. While your making these changes to the CO's how about improving the UI for PI? 1. Make it possible to re-size the Science and Industry window so that it takes up less than 30% of your screen. 2. Make extractors capable of using the shift and alt keys like probes. I'm sure others have suggested improvements they would like to see. As far as the CO's one thing else I would like to see (I think it was mentioned in a round about way) is the ability to use contracts for the materials thus enabling courier contract between CO's. I mean what self respecting Industrialist wants to actually have to do the work? Just have someone haul your P1, P2, P3 to your final building planet and drop it off in the CO for you. This would also help with the Intel problem since people accepting courier contract will show up at different times and be from different corps. |
Lili Lu
189
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 14:11:00 -
[1319] - Quote
Agree with all the comments that this is retardedly bad for lowsec, idiotic to ever contemplate in high sec, and rather stupid for null sec where all they need is more structures that either allow large alliances to gobble up assets (what happened to diminishing the current overlord/renter paradigm), or become just more structures to have to shoot. |
Andre Coeurl
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 14:34:00 -
[1320] - Quote
I think it's a good concept, but with bad execution if it will go live with the specs as stated. It will efectively ban most players to do PI in lowsec and low level WHs, due to the high cost towards reward of the customs offices, and the very low chances to be able to defend them at all. An unprotected Custom office with just the reinforce timer to keep it from being destroyed right away, although as expensive as a small tower??? C'mon, I understand that you're being pushed toward making DUST somehow worthwhile, and that you want more action in lowsec and so on, but it is not going to work if you do it this way. You'll reduce the subscriptions by people in small corps or with no corp whatsoever,and there's lots of them who don't havethe time or committment to be in a large organized group, but still enjoy the game in their own way. Of course, Goons don't like them, of course... |
|
Andre Coeurl
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:02:00 -
[1321] - Quote
Bock Uisen wrote:Zarazor Haargrim wrote:The end result will most likely be simply that lowsec becomes even less populated than at present - and that is some feat.
......
Basically a CCP initiated 'POSageddon'.
Problem: Lowsec isn't populated enough
CCP Solution: Make it more difficult to use. That's my conclusion. I moved to Low-Sec for PI as the profit was worth the risk, and losing a 100M+ ship from time to time is acceptable. In the future, I'll pack out of Low-Sec, as my sector is Fw + Pirates + Goons roaming... so I do not give 1h of life expectancy to any undefended structure in any of the systems I work in (and no merc corp will defend that space to become targets to those roamers). Haters gonna hate... and Grievers gonna have great time... shooting the only thing remaining in space, as there will be even less traffic in Low-Sec than currently. They will shoot the Customs, to try to draw targets out. Only real question to CCP is the %age of goods produced in Low-Sec currently, as this market source is going to dry.I have no problem over fighting over the control of the Customs, which makes it a source of passive income for the Low-Sec lords (and link it BOTH WAYS to Sovereignty in Null), but having a chance of barring production from others will make PI in Low-Sec disappear, increasing the cost of PI goods again, closing POS across the board as they will again be more expensive. Will people leave ? surely not, but inflation is the future, as Null produces for Null and High-Sec is overcrowded already... all actions on PI will make a direct action on prices of everything. But perhaps it is one more move from the Null-CSM that wants to add PI-goo to the current Moon-goo monies, and to do so, they need to kill the only competition. Corporate greed ? Time will see, but that is a blow to Low-Sec, to try to push people to Dust514... My prediction will be that it is back to normal in 12-18 months after Dust settles back to nothingness. Then we'll be back to FiS. p.s.: meanwhile, I have years of stockpiles of PI goods, so I'll make a lot of monies :)
Totally agreed. I'ts bad business sense by CCP going on, still, but it's also just fair though as all the casual players didn't care much about the latest CSM elections, so they'll enjoy the consequeces even more... Be ready, Customs'a'Geddon coming soon! |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:28:00 -
[1322] - Quote
Phantom, could you add that these structures are deployed by corporations, but do not allow shared corp access (even vials upgrades). Obviously a PCO 'corp hanger' should not be any larger than the normal allowance, but maybe we can have a tickbox ti allow corp member access to our PCOs? Items can only be moved into our own personal hanger from there hangers of others. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations 0ccupational Hazzard
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:31:00 -
[1323] - Quote
Although I still believe the change will hit small producers, I'm in favor of it. Why ?
I can see the oportunities as well. Rippling effects through the chains...thats good for overall economy. Strenghtening the effect of PI in T2 production is good, it's not only moon goo which counts. Smaller entities will be able to compete on PI field but they never can compete against Technetium overlords.
Ofc doing PI in crowded systems like Amamake or Old Man Star will be most probably impossible. Even medium frequent low-sec will be quite risky. But there is still some amount of quite dead low-sec. With prices going up , those who are willing to take the risk, will make quite a good profit.
Allowing PI in hi-sec will serve as a overall limit to all kind of exploitation , monopols etc. If the tax guys will become too greedy , hi-sec production will become profitable.
As one of those small producers I'll probably quit PI ...no tears, I'm looking for new opportunities. More complexity is good, more sandbox is good. CCP do it ! :-) |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:32:00 -
[1324] - Quote
Probably mentioned already, but rather than magically disappearing the current lowsec, null and WH COs, the just become 'abandoned' or something concord with the tax rate set the the same as the highsec COs. That way, players can remove and replace COs with PCOs as and when they are ready, removing all 'transition period' worries about PI interruption, low availability of gantries, BPOs, etc. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:37:00 -
[1325] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:Probably mentioned already, but rather than magically disappearing the current lowsec, null and WH COs, the just become 'abandoned' or something concord with the tax rate set the the same as the highsec COs. That way, players can remove and replace COs with PCOs as and when they are ready, removing all 'transition period' worries about PI interruption, low availability of gantries, BPOs, etc.
Sorry for the triple post, but why not use the above method for highsec PCOs too? Just set a mandated 'concord minimum' the tax to ensure the encouragement to use lowsec rather than highsec? Along with no capacity to exclude reds, or neutrals, etc. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
317
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 17:40:00 -
[1326] - Quote
So CCP here are 67 pages of feedback
Are you still reading and what are your conclusions
While the majority is in favor of the concept , it seems the impact it makes on low sec pi ( where most goods are extracted) seems to be overwhelming negative in its current form
will it be like it stands now or are you making changes
please let us know I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Sauraah
Voracious Violence
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 17:48:00 -
[1327] - Quote
Andre Coeurl wrote:Be ready, Customs'a'Geddon coming soon!
On the bright side of this mess between now and the change I will be stock piling my PI products in anticipation of a market spike. |
Leocadminone
Gem Concordance
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 18:00:00 -
[1328] - Quote
Reality check time
* Customs Office ** Shield: 10,000,000 ** Armor: 2,500,000 ** Structure: 2,000,000
Regards Omen
That would take a long time for a lone supercap pilot for anyone who may be wondering...
Those specs are comparable to a small POS - which I've had 4 low-skill alts in DESTROYERS manage to take down.
That is NOT going to be a tough target at all, given no defences and apparently no resists.
The availability of the blueprints as ONLY copies from CONCORD specifically (I don't count the FW stuff as very few folks bother with FW) makes the availability of these VERY limited and a PITA. The blueprints should also be available from AT LEAST one corp in each empire, since this IS affecting Empire space (lowsec) not just NulSec.
Where is the justification for the doubled tax rate on HighSec offices? Highsec PI is bloody low profit margin as it is and quite low income based on TOTAL time investment (don't forget you have to COLLECT the stuff, take it to market, and sell it), this will be enough to drive a LOT of folks out of it entirely.
Yet another "NOT THOUGHT OUT" concept from CCP, though at least this time you're giving us some time to point out the obvious issues you've somehow managed to overlook. Mabey, JUST MABEY, you might actually be starting to get a faint clue?
I won't comment on that joke about "we hope a new type of company" etc - if you meant that seriously, you MUST have been high when you posted it, or you're even more clueless than that riot-inciting post from Zulu was.
Others have already addressed the OBVIOUS "blob" issues, how the hell you missed THAT I totally fail to understand.
|
Kaaii
Kaaii-Net Research Labs KAAII-NET
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 18:46:00 -
[1329] - Quote
67 pages and I didn't see this asked......
how many runs does the BPC have?
Seems like it will be a bottle neck with the 1-3-5-9 convention being used.
|
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 18:52:00 -
[1330] - Quote
Constructive criticism: you're terrible. Quit.
Unconstructive criticism: in the edit.
Edit: Hopefully ccp will just ban me from their terrible game so I can stop being such a victim.
Edit edit: Can't wait for tier 3 bc gais! |
|
Circumstantial Evidence
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 20:11:00 -
[1331] - Quote
I much prefer the type of constructive criticism offered in Leocadminone's recent post, to (what was) some name-calling offered by Holy One. [Edit: Props for the edit!]
CCP Phantom has compiled a list of player's concerns for the dev team, in this message on page 61.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=222897#post222897 |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 01:56:00 -
[1332] - Quote
Better idea: Don't fix what isn't broken.
More FiS, less FarmVille please ^^ |
Vastek Non
State War Academy Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 02:36:00 -
[1333] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: The coming experiment will show that planetary or orbital defences are an absolute necessity: even if such a defence is a shield generator on the surface which requires either orbital bombardment or a DUST invasion to shut down. The sad truth of the matter is that any sufficiently determined null sec alliance will be able to wipe out all low sec customs offices as a matter of routine. Unless the purpose of PI is to hand income to null sec on a silver platter, balance requires some means of preventing capital fleets taking away your CO like a thief in the night. A reinforcement timer is not the answer.
Thats actually a really good point. The only thing about this that makes any sense whatsoever is if CCP is planning on making it possible to place a shield generator (to protect POCO) on the planet surface, and the only way to shut this down is a DUST invasion force
Edit: Except of course that i'm sure CCP has stated that DUST is null sec only at this stage, so why low and wh? Maybe i'm just reading to much logic into an illogical idea. |
Elmis
InterSun Freelance Moon Warriors
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 02:54:00 -
[1334] - Quote
I just wanted to say that I am really excited by this proposed change. I have various concerns GÇô all of which have already been raised such as the ability to solo / ninja PI outside of Empire, and ensuring low sec PI continues to be viable. But more important GÇôthe basic concept of putting this sort of infrastructure into the hands of the player is very cool, and adds a new and real dynamic to the game for both industrialists and PVPers. |
Greygal
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
103
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 07:07:00 -
[1335] - Quote
Oh please, for the sake of myself and every other corp/alliance leader, don't give us yet another thing we have to mess around with roles on!
While I actually DO agree that planetary customs offices should be available to be anchored for corporations, ALSO PERMIT them to be anchored as PERSONAL. Like we do with GSCs...
I'm already flooded with members asking if they can have "roles" to do the customs offices for themselves, and the last thing I want to do is give everyone the same roles that affect our POSs, roles limited to only the very most trusted members.
Besides the security issue (and the hair-pulling I'll do with this), frankly, there's no way my corporation can purchase, anchor, and manage POCOs for right around 90 different planets that my various members are using for PI in wormhole and NPC null sec space. While my members are capable of paying for POCOs for their "own" planets, they sure don't want to pay for a structure that they can't take with them should they move to another corporation. I don't need more of my members spawning off into single-player corps just because they want to anchor a structure...
Planetary Interaction when it was first released was quite specifically intended to be something *anyone* can do, with or without corp support. I do like the idea that we'll be able to collect miniscule taxes, I like the idea of something that has to be built and managed by the players of Eve. I like that they can be attacked! But cutting out the individuality of PI is not thought out well at all. Fortunately, there is a simple way to both create another corporate asset AND at the same time maintain the individual mini-businesses currently enjoyed by many single players: Let POCOs be anchorable BOTH corporate AND personal. Let it be up to the individual OR the corporation to manage POCOs.
While you are at it, please rethink the build cost. I find it odd that something that has the hit points of about a small pos is estimatedly nearly three times the cost of a small pos, without any defensive capabilities.
I do like that it's available through FW because I think it's a nice boost to FW stores. Might have to roll an alt into a FW corp :)
Edit: Written while I was still Director of Sephray Industries, Inc. What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal. |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 09:24:00 -
[1336] - Quote
Ooo.....CCP! over here, I got a great idea!
Why not make it so you can only do PI if you are wearing a monacle, make a new tier 3 product at the same time, GOLD Ammo, that you can sell for real money!
I'm sure these simple changes would be happily accepted by all EVE players and CCP themselves!
|
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 10:20:00 -
[1337] - Quote
Cerulean Ice wrote:Better idea: Don't fix what isn't broken. More FiS, less FarmVille please ^^
pi needs to be intresting not a must do, mind numbing, dull, repetative, time sink of a job.
everyone i know that does any pi, quits after 1-2 months max as its not worth it for teh time spent(i do get a few people like it, i dont know why)
fix pi first before adding stuff that makes it more of a job and not a fun thing to do. it coudl be awesom, but its far far from it currently CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 10:44:00 -
[1338] - Quote
Cerulean Ice wrote:Better idea: Don't fix what isn't broken. More FiS, less FarmVille please ^^
Adding more stuff for Spaceships to fight for is very much FiS. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 11:20:00 -
[1339] - Quote
I'd favor a gradual rollout of this new feature: first do 0.0, evaluate, then lowsec and possibly highsec as well. Don't rush out new untested changes and give us nothing after that for several months.
Larger 0.0 alliances can benefit from this, but Dust might ruin the fun. There is no point in building custom offices when a bunch of mercs can blow up the planetary infrastructure. On the other hand it is also yet unknown how COs will affect sov in the new sov system. Alliances might build them even though they have little interest in PI. |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
229
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 12:53:00 -
[1340] - Quote
I haven't seen this possible solution put forward in previous pages, apologies if it has been raised, there is a lot to read.
Keep COs in Low Sec but make them conquerable to player corps. And only allow owners to charge a certain percentage up to 100% and prevent them from blocking use to other players on the planets by standings. That way the owners get isk revenue with low initial cost, PI in low sec is a bit more expensive but possible and people can still fight over the COs for the profit. (Possibly look into having this for High Sec later on but have a maximum of 50% tax collectible.
Make COs cheaper but deployable in 0.0 there is no administration out there they should be built but allow alliances to block others from using it and maybe make them shut down when put into reinforced so small gangs can raid enemies for fights and to annoy their foes and cut supply lines, as well as being destructible.
Seems like the most balanced plan for this new feature.
Thoughts?
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Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 12:55:00 -
[1341] - Quote
Please please consider a new reinforcement model for these. I would love to see them as small gang targets without making them easy prey for supers. What if we gave them some sort of dampening field that limited the damage over time such that they could take at max say 5000 dps over a one minute period of time on average. This would make it a target for a small gang while making a super complete overkill and be no faster. You could then set the hit points to be whatever it needs to be to take X amount of time to kill and or reinforce. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 14:38:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Please please consider a new reinforcement model for these. I would love to see them as small gang targets without making them easy prey for supers. What if we gave them some sort of dampening field that limited the damage over time such that they could take at max say 5000 dps over a one minute period of time on average. This would make it a target for a small gang while making a super complete overkill and be no faster. You could then set the hit points to be whatever it needs to be to take X amount of time to kill and or reinforce.
A smaller signature radius on the POCO itself might help with that, instead of giving it the signature radius of a capital ship, give it a signature radius about the size of a cruiser / battlecruiser / battleship. (Sig radius on a large tower is 6000m, 4000m on a medium 2000m on a small.) So having the POCO with a sig radius of 300m for a "large" variant, 200m for a "medium variant" and 100m for a "small variant" might mean that smaller POCOs would be harder to destroy by XL weapons.
Since the POCOs have no visible shield bubble, it makes sense for their sig radius to be smaller then their full fledged POS tower brethren.
Also opens up the idea of (2) new POS e-war modules:
1) Tracking Disruptor Battery - Doesn't currently exist, would need to function like existing TD modules.
2) An anti-target painter - When applied to an enemy ship, that ship's electronics sees every other signature radius as 20% smaller.
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 14:54:00 -
[1343] - Quote
I'll try to summarize my view on this, from the point of view of lowsec, as this is where 1) I have the most experience, and 2) I think POCOs have the most potential.
PI brings into lowsec a steady supply of highsec people collecting their materials. They do it because the profit is good and the risk manageable. However, these people add very little to the lowsec ecosystem. At most, the unlucky ones will become another boring hauler killmail.
POCOs have the potential of bringing those lowsec PI runners into the ecosystem. They will become a resource to be taxed. Lowsec entities will setup POCOs to feed off them. Other lowsec residents will reinforce the POCOs, either to setup their own, or to force fights. Those fights will escalate the way fights do, and more fun will be had.
But to get this, a certain balance has to be found:
- The flow of PI chars into lowsec must continue. This means POCOs must be common and generally (or always) open to all, and lowsec PI must remain profitable despite taxes.
- POCOs must be profitable enough that they pay for themselves before they get destroyed. Two weeks to a month on the average planet seems right.
- However, losing a POCO needs to hurt the owner in some way. If people think "let them take it, we'll put up a new one later", there will be no fights.
If CCP manages to balance these 3 points, POCOs will become a new focus for conflict and hopefully fights. If they don't... we won't see much lowsec PI. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 14:59:00 -
[1344] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Cerulean Ice wrote:Better idea: Don't fix what isn't broken. More FiS, less FarmVille please ^^ Adding more stuff for Spaceships to fight for is very much FiS.
its going to be rare you fight over a planet thingy.
mostly as there will not be many put up in low sec, why bother do pi in high sec save 80mil/planet and have no risk. in 0.0 there wont be ops to defend them as its far more important to do anything else than fight over a pointless structure that has no meaning, also in 0.0 80 mil is what 2h ratting at most people will just put up another. also have to remember the roaming gang that did ref it prob wont come back anyhow as they just did it to be anoying while passing through space that had no real targets in.
fight over planet things..lol, your a ccp alt right? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1078
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:55:00 -
[1345] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:So CCP here are 67 pages of feedback
Are you still reading and what are your conclusions
Yes, we are still following this thread. I have compiled a list of player concerns which I have updated several times. The responsible Devteam has answered quite a lot of questions so far also.
The feedback is good and constructive here, exactly of that sort which is most valuable. Thank you very much!
CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 16:08:00 -
[1346] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:I have compiled a list of player concerns which I have updated several times. The responsible Devteam has answered quite a lot of questions so far also. wow that's a good job
i suggest you to put a link on the 1st page, on spitfire post, it will be way easier this way , as no one wil find it on a 60 pages thread after this post will also be lost with the new comments ^^ |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
82
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 16:32:00 -
[1347] - Quote
Very nice work, both in the concept and in taking player feedback into account. Looking forward to whatever the final version of this will be.
It won't take a fleet of dreads to reinforce a POCO. With the current HP, a small gang of stealth bombers can do the job in fifteen or twenty minutes. This is both a good and a bad thing. It's good because it allows small gangs to harass nullsec residents, and means that there isn't much incentive to bring huge structure-shooting blobs to take POCOs down, especially since there may be dozens of POCOs in a single system. It's bad because a small gang can go through several systems during the POCO owner's downtime and reinforce all the POCOs, then force the owner to babysit them all when they come out of reinforced mode; on the other hand, this is the price of ownership.
Besides which, the profits from PI are so low that no sane alliance or corporation will drop a capital fleet on one. Nullsec alliances obviously will clear out POCOs which they do not own from their space, but that's the way things should be. Nullsec alliances don't leave hostile towers floating about in their space, and they don't leave hostile IHubs or TCUs, either, for obvious reasons. But I very much doubt that capital fleets will ever be used to kill POCOs unless their HP is drastically increased, and that would be bad since it would encourage blobbing or simply make POCOs pointless to shoot at except for sovereign holders.
I am not sure why anyone would run ninja PI operations in sovereign nullsec. The risk doesn't seem to be worth the effort, especially considering that most nullsec alliances will form a fleet to shoot a cloaky hauler on principle, and since cloaky haulers have rather low cargo capacity. This should not be a significant concern. I especially do not understand why anyone would run high-level PI operations in sovereign nullsec space.
A single individual is not supposed to be able to own his personal POCO except in relatively empty pockets of space. Near as I understand it, POCOs are meant to be corporate or alliance assets. So it should require some sort of group-level organization to keep a POCO safe. Similarly, a corporation which goes to the effort of building and defending a POCO should be able to make life difficult for people whom it does not like.
I do agree that we should not be able to completely exclude players from running PI, but players already can use the command launchpad for export. Why not make a new, higher-capacity launchpad that can be easily moved alongside the ECU/processor cluster but has less storage space and less launch capacity than the customs office pad? Better yet, make that launchpad draw on neighboring storage silos. This would make storage silos actually useful, and would allow players to bypass a POCO. Better yet, allow import via this new launchpad, albeit at a greater cost. This way when Dust allows us to build death rays on planets by moving certain construction parts down to a planet, a small ninja alliance can drop a small colony and build its death ray unnoticed, then nuke a few dreads.
I am not entirely sure that preventing players from excluding others based on standings but allowing them to set any tax rate would solve anything. If I set a tax rate to 1000% of the current price for all reds, it would be as though I had excluded reds from using the POCO. Not allowing me to set different tax rates seems contrary to the sandbox.
For NPC nullsec, it may be a good idea to keep customs offices, make them conquerable, prohibit exclusion of players and cap the maximum tax rate. After all, that space is owned by big-name pirates, who presumably run their own planet-based industries and don't want a bunch of pod-pilots crashing their parade. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 16:44:00 -
[1348] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:pussnheels wrote:So CCP here are 67 pages of feedback
Are you still reading and what are your conclusions
Yes, we are still following this thread. I have compiled a list of player concerns which I have updated several times. The responsible Devteam has answered quite a lot of questions so far also. The feedback is good and constructive here, exactly of that sort which is most valuable. Thank you very much!
Thank you for keeping the notes you're taking updated!
+ 1 |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:29:00 -
[1349] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Yes, we are still following this thread. I have compiled a list of player concerns which I have updated several times.
Sadly, it still doesn't include the counters to many of the "issues", which are resolved by a) teamwork and / or b) fighting. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:47:00 -
[1350] - Quote
A few notes/comments on ideas that have been mentioned frequently already:
Indestructible POCOs, switching owners upon attack: HORRIBLE idea!!! It has been suggester quite a few times that POCOs shouldn't be destructible but change ownership (like outposts). They need to be destructible! Give us some more uses for the actual PI materials (which aren't used for fuel) instead of just POSs themselves! The demand is desperately needed, and it needs to be an ongoing demand, not just 1 time till the good planets have a POCO that just switches owners upon attack. Switching ownership would also mean no need for an investment for whoever wants it, they just need to shoot at it for a couple of minutes, come back after a day or so and shoot some more and voil+á: free income. This would no longer be a political or even economical decision as CCP has said they want it to be, but just a free-for-all "attack here for profit". THEN we'd surely have alliances and big corps taking over every POCO they can find or just come across, there is no downside, no commitment/investment required! I understand the motivation of this suggestion, but it isn't thought out. Actually even less than the current mechanic proposed/planned by CCP. For all that is sacred please consider the consequences and side effects of something like this! The mechanic is bad for Outposts which cost a hell of a lot more ISK and it will be a disaster for POCOs!
Keep current COs until players replace them: The idea is, that the current COs stay up until players show up to replace them. What I haven't seen is any real incentive to actually do so. Since there won't be near enough POCOs available via market and/or contracts to place near all the planets which are currently used for PI in "not-high-sec", there needs to be a grace period. It also needs to encourage the replacement of the Concord-COs over time, the best incentive would be to slowly but steadily increase the tax rate, like 5% per week or something. Also, don't limit it in this case to 100%, make it increase every week until it is finally replaced. This would allow the supply to come up with enough of those things over time to satisfy demand.
edit: only saw just now, also already proposed basically in this form in post #1238 by Ingvar Angst.
Tax as % of transferred goods instead of fixed ISK rate: I really also love this idea. Some things need to be considered and implemented though for this to work! There needs to be a corp hangar in addition to personal hangars for the owning corp. Not like a normal station hangar with all the divisions, but have a drop-down box in the options allow the selection of one division the hangar is supposed to act like (for allowing access and stuff). The capacity also needs to be at least that of a normal hangar to avoid nightmare-logistics... Also there needs to be a constant counter keeping score of the transported goods by any individual using it ('customer'). Otherwise the tax could be circumvented by just transferring smaller amounts, where there is never any tax payable (similar to reprocessing modules piece by piece or in bulk). Take this example: Someone produces P4s on a planet with a 5% tax. He wants to transfer 24 items, where he'd pay 1 item as tax, but instead he only transfers 8 three times, avoiding the taxes completely. The system needs to know how many of any specific item was transferred in which direction to know what exactly to take. If it wasn't done per exact type I could just have a couple of cheaper items of the same tier just for transfering when I know the tax is due (transfer 19 integrity response drones, then 1 Organic Mortar applicator). This is of course an extreme example with the only item group that is worth a significant amount by itself, and will be much less problematic with P0-P3. Yes, this would put a strain on the database as these entries would have to be kept for any individual character per exact item per POCO! It's a lot of data, and any entry older than a moth or so should probably be just removed. Another, simpler way would be to keep the ISK tax for P4 items like it is (or would be) now, but switch to the item-based tax for all other imports/exports. Please note though: It WILL make factory planets a nightmare to restock, since you have to include the tax in what you want to transfer!
Size of planetary launches: A flat size increase has been requested many times, or a tie-in to the command center skill, but how about creating a new skill for it (Launch Vehicle Operation?), which adds 1k m-¦ (or just doubles it) per level over the default 500 m-¦. This would allow players to actively choose this as a viable alternative to POCOs if they owner turns out be just screwing around with the tax and/or access all the time. Might also have another skill to reduce the cost of a launch and/or decrease launch intervals. Maybe even one more skill allowing for imports via some sort of launch canister
POCOs on Kill Mails: Also a much asked question (and answered on page 60 by CCP Nullarbor that they will produce kill mails). I don't like the idea, but it depends in the end if CCP is true to their statement that they don't want to incentivize killing these for the hell of it but for political/economical reasons. If someone wants to put up their own POCO, stop someone from doing PI on certain planet(s) or just plainly influence the general market they will do so. There doesn't need to be an additional incentive for people to shoot stuff just to pad their kill board. "Hey, there isn't anyone to shoot around, but since we have a fleet let's reinforce a couple POCOs, maybe if we are bored tomorrow again we can kill them and have at least something on our kill board!"
Well, my opinions on the current suggestions. Discuss! |
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Max Devious
EPSYLON FORCE NZAU Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.23 18:28:00 -
[1351] - Quote
So now I've read all the comments in this thread, and in the final analysis this is what we know:
1. These POCOs are not financially viable as income-generating profit points in and of themselves because of the high costs associated with obtaining them and the likelihood of their destruction. Tax revenues generated always < cost of ownership.
2. This being the case, the only reason to purchase and deploy one is to have rights to the PI on the planet.
It is thus only a method to extend sovereignty battles into LowSec and WH space. Some simple wildcat production can still be done with launchers, but all multi-stage production will now be controlled by the large Alliances. There is no economic reason for tax rates to be anything other than 0% or 100% unless you are sharing resources with other corps and want to take a piece of the action for providing security. WH crews will be hurt more at first due to the logistical challenges inherent in WH life, and later maybe not so much because WH mechanics give us a better chance of defending. This may ironically have the effect of moving more PI industrialists into WH crews so they can protect their investments. It will certainly not make anyone more likely to move into LowSec, and it will become more a wasteland than it is even now.
Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards.
Max. |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 18:29:00 -
[1352] - Quote
Part 3 you can add what you put in Part 4 : LOWSEC changes also perfect for blobs and large groups.
Anyway just have to look at likes/dislikes answers to see who wants it and who doesnt, imo you'll please 10 K players and uppset the rest
Oh, indeed, i would have first say that the way this was brought to us is very interesting ("we are GONNA DO", this was not "what if we do ?"). So, again, instead of putting all energy and people to finalize what your customers (we are players, but first we are customers) are waiting for YEARS you come with another "will do" ... cant do else than compare it with http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672 |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 18:32:00 -
[1353] - Quote
Max Devious wrote:Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards.
You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 19:09:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:
...
Size of planetary launches: A flat size increase has been requested many times, or a tie-in to the command center skill, but how about creating a new skill for it (Launch Vehicle Operation?), which adds 1k m-¦ (or just doubles it) per level over the default 500 m-¦. This would allow players to actively choose this as a viable alternative to POCOs if they owner turns out be just screwing around with the tax and/or access all the time. Might also have another skill to reduce the cost of a launch and/or decrease launch intervals. Maybe even one more skill allowing for imports via some sort of launch canister
...
Well, my opinions on the current suggestions. Discuss!
If this were to be done, it should only be done if the pre-requisite skill is Command Center Upgrades LVL 5 |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 19:24:00 -
[1355] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:
...
Size of planetary launches: A flat size increase has been requested many times, or a tie-in to the command center skill, but how about creating a new skill for it (Launch Vehicle Operation?), which adds 1k m-¦ (or just doubles it) per level over the default 500 m-¦. This would allow players to actively choose this as a viable alternative to POCOs if they owner turns out be just screwing around with the tax and/or access all the time. Might also have another skill to reduce the cost of a launch and/or decrease launch intervals. Maybe even one more skill allowing for imports via some sort of launch canister
...
Well, my opinions on the current suggestions. Discuss!
If this were to be done, it should only be done if the pre-requisite skill is Command Center Upgrades LVL 5
Yea, that's actually a pretty good idea and would give a reason to train it besides having a bit more grid/cpu per planet (it really isn't that much unfortunately). It would basically mean you do PI seriously and not just as a hobby, so you have developed special ways to ninja around the POCOs high taxrates (if they are high or you're locked out only, it shouldn't be cheaper to launch a rocket compared to a 20% tax or so). |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 19:34:00 -
[1356] - Quote
Alice Katsuko wrote:
Nullsec alliances obviously will clear out POCOs which they do not own from their space, but that's the way things should be. Nullsec alliances don't leave hostile towers floating about in their space, and they don't leave hostile IHubs or TCUs, either, for obvious reasons.
your wrong about this. have shot many old tcu's/ihub's of alliances that havnt lived in our space for over a year. why are they still there? because people hate shooting things that dont shoot back and are of no importance. tcu/ihub is offline in a system, anchour your own, the old ones just sit there until there is a total lack of targets and a bored fc.(they dont get cleared in the 30day space clean up thingy) a new alliance moving into an area will concentract on sov structures not planety things at first, why? cos they are not important. in a few years yourll find lots of older alliances planet things dotted about and will only do soemthing if the tax is high and you can really be botherd removing it and replacing it. grunt work not an alliance lvl job imo CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
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Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 19:52:00 -
[1357] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:A few notes/comments on ideas that have been mentioned frequently already:
Indestructible POCOs, switching owners upon attack: HORRIBLE idea!!! It has been suggester quite a few times that POCOs shouldn't be destructible but change ownership (like outposts). They need to be destructible! Give us some more uses for the actual PI materials (which aren't used for fuel) instead of just POSs themselves! The demand is desperately needed, and it needs to be an ongoing demand, not just 1 time till the good planets have a POCO that just switches owners upon attack. Switching ownership would also mean no need for an investment for whoever wants it, they just need to shoot at it for a couple of minutes, come back after a day or so and shoot some more and voil+á: free income. This would no longer be a political or even economical decision as CCP has said they want it to be, but just a free-for-all "attack here for profit". THEN we'd surely have alliances and big corps taking over every POCO they can find or just come across, there is no downside, no commitment/investment required! I understand the motivation of this suggestion, but it isn't thought out. Actually even less than the current mechanic proposed/planned by CCP. For all that is sacred please consider the consequences and side effects of something like this! The mechanic is bad for Outposts which cost a hell of a lot more ISK and it will be a disaster for POCOs!
Firstly, the conquer mechanic is, for the most part, only being discussed for LOW-SEC. In 0.0 and WH space, fully destructible POCOs should still be implemented, as per discussed and explained many times in this thread. Second, the conquer mechanic on outposts makes more sense than actually having them just blow up. As a station builder, I can tell you that it takes many months to actually create a station, not to mention that it's an extremely large isk sink that an alliance will most likely never see returns on. The benefits of having a dock-able structure that can store unlimited items however far outweigh the risks. As for POCO in LOW-SEC ONLY, conquer mechanics should be implemented, as it will solve many issues people are having now, namely greifing, cost-effectiveness, chosen amount of player interaction, etc.
As for uses of PI materials, I take it you don't build anything. PI material is used in T2 production, structure production, and capital/super capital production. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 21:33:00 -
[1358] - Quote
It occurs to me to bring up the following:
When CCP first transitioned to the current 'Scrum' development style for overall project management, it was publicized that teams would routinely provide snapshots of their work (to the other teams iirc) on a weekly or almost weekly basis.
With the announcement of Tier 3 Battle Cruisers, and their Battleship sized weapons, and given what has been announced regarding PCO eHP amounts...
How did Team Pi meld the Tier 3 Battle Cruiser concept into their overall feature design during the development process?
Is this why PCO's are designed the way they are? (No Defences, negligeable overall eHP for a single point of access structure, etc.)
Lastly, if as proposed, PCO's are left fully destructible in all regions (excluding High Sec), then what was the rational for making the gantry volume m3 higher than what a blockade runner could hold?
Wouldn't it better serve the feature to allow these to be moved into position that much more easily, rather than create an artificial hinderance by relegating deployment to only a T1 Indy hauler, or Deep Space Transport (i.e. Bustard)?
While I understand the fundamental philosophy behind this feature, as well as it's incremental movement towards linking EVE Online and Dust 514; it is very difficult to discern some 'perceived' inconsistencies regarding development details, and their tie ins, without greater clarity in communication from CCP and Team Pi
Roughly translated: A lot of this isn't making a lot of sense (even when trying to analyze it objectively)
Can we expect a Team Pi update to the community? And if so is there any E.T.A. for a "This is where we're at" style update related to this feature? |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 22:00:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Many problems would be solved if COs remained in 0.3 and 0.4 while players can erect their own in 0.1 and 0.2. Lowsec alliances can own their own COs if they want, but highsec dwellers can still go into lowsec for PI. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 00:56:00 -
[1360] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Many problems would be solved if COs remained in 0.3 and 0.4 while players can erect their own in 0.1 and 0.2. Lowsec alliances can own their own COs if they want, but highsec dwellers can still go into lowsec for PI.
This would be a version of hybridization of PCO's in Low Sec...
+ 1 |
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Daniellica
Itsall Mining Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 01:09:00 -
[1361] - Quote
Why not create a new type of tower?
Call it "Planetary Control Tower"
Allow anchoring of POS mods (maybe defense only)? (CO would anchor inside the shield bubble). -Also, it maybe should only have the same PW and CPU as a small tower.
Allow it to only shoot at who you want it to shoot at (like a POS). That way if you only let blues use it, people will want to attack. If you allow all to use the planet, it should be considerably safer than a CO with no defenses.
As far as fueling goes, maybe only have it need PI goods and perhaps a small, small amount of ice products.
This could solve everyone worrying about investing a lot of isk into a sitting duck, and also give the "little guy" the feeling of actually owning a planet (or the "medium guys" owning a sprawling empire in low sec).
I would LOVE for my small corp to be able to set up 2 or 3 of these and see how it goes. We have a POS set up for PI anyway, so why not just have PI'ers put the isk toward fueling their planetary control towers instead?
***Oh, now that I think of it, perhaps a cargo station that only can hold PI crud. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 02:42:00 -
[1362] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:A few notes/comments on ideas that have been mentioned frequently already:
Indestructible POCOs, switching owners upon attack: HORRIBLE idea!!!
Keep current COs until players replace them: It also needs to encourage the replacement of the Concord-COs over time, the best incentive would be to slowly but steadily increase the tax rate, like 5% per week or something. Also, don't limit it in this case to 100%, make it increase every week until it is finally replaced. This would allow the supply to come up with enough of those things over time to satisfy demand.
Tax as % of transferred goods instead of fixed ISK rate:
Size of planetary launches:
A. I understand your argument against indestructible structures. I do agree that "attack here for profit" is a problem, but making them destructible doesn't solve that.
PI materials have lots of uses other than POS fuels, including the production of T2 mods and such. In my opinion, the usefulness of PI materials is about where it should be as is the demand. It's not hard to sell PI materials. I repeat my argument - I don't think destructible POCO's can be made priced right to both be worth attacking/defending and also be profitable in a reasonable time frame without dramatically changing the economy of PI. Those are both the goals of the whole idea. I also think dramatically changing the economy just to get PCO's in game is really bad.
With a system similar to the one proposed in the blog, very little is changed in null/WH space. Ninja PI decreases in null, and corps don't want the administrative overhead for minor profits in null/WH, but are in the position of being forced to make an investment for either 0 or insignificant profit just to keep their current operations (like POS's) running. I don't see how that adds to the fun/challenge of the game.
One assumption that many seem to make, is that destroying a PCO is with the intent of putting one up in it's place. I think many attacks would be just for lol's and the killmails, not for any potential profits from putting up a PCO in it's place. We can not assume that there would be an interest to put up a new PCO if the old one were destroyed, either by the ones destroying it or anyone else. If your doing PI on a planet, suddenly not having a PCO there drastically changes the attractiveness of that planet for PI. If your constantly dealing with planets that suddenly don't have a PCO, you stop doing PI in anything other than high sec. I do not think we can assume that those doing PI will put up a PCO, since PI is often done by poor and low SP characters. Not knowing if your PI planet will have a PCO tomorrow doesn't make you want to invest in an elaborate high income PI setup on a planet. You need elaborate high income PI setups to justify investing in a PCO. PI people need some kind of stability or they just wont invest in PI. I think the end result is a huge impact on the economy that we can't predict now, and this whole plan revolves having sufficient people doing PI to make taxes profitable. So having destructible PCO's is a bad idea in my opinion.
B. I agree that the NPC CO's should stay in game. As to have the taxes increased over time to a point or indefinitely, I disagree. The incentive to put up PCO that your not seeing should be the profits of taxation. I don't think this plan gives enough profits to justify the investment, but that's a side issue. The problem is that many planets are low resource planets, and are not profitable enough to interest a corp to put up a POCO there, ever. As the NPC tax goes up and up, eventually the planet is removed from the pool of useful planets - not enough tax to have a POCO put on it, but too high taxes to do profitable PI on the planet.
C. Hate the idea of taxes being actual goods and not ISK. How does a corp get the goods out of a POCO to haul them to market? The volume of the collected taxes would be substantial. I am not going to fly a freighter in low/null/WH space to collect my taxes from POCO's. I just won't have POCO's. Only potential ship I see is a JF, and then fuel costs cut into already slim profits. Never mind having to keep track of how much taxes are in various POCO's. I think this would mean 0 tax in null and WHs, just so you would not have to go get your taxes, and no one wanting to put up a POCO in low sec. People stop PI because it's a PITA to haul stuff around, and people would stop owning POCO's because it's a PITA to haul stuff around.
D. Size of planetary launches - I have lvl 4 in command centers. With that, I can get about 7000 units of P1 materials (like oxygen) from a planet doing nothing else in 24 hours. That's 2660 m3 of volume. Guessing lvl 5 would get me 3000 m3 of volume. If I can launch something near that volume, my production is the same but my taxes are very low. So are the profits of the POCO, since people launch and avoid the POCO taxes. More disincentive to put up a POCO. If I can launch 2500 m3 of stuff and have it cost 25k to do so, or I can use the POCO and pay 20k in taxes, guess what, I'll launch every time. Getting my launch in essentially a safe spot or going to what could be a camped hostile POCO for the difference of 5k ISK, or even 100k? What would you choose? As much as I like the idea of adding flexibility and making the command center something worth clicking on, doing so really breaks the profitability of POCO's, already of very dubious profitability.
|
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 02:57:00 -
[1363] - Quote
Daniellica wrote:Why not create a new type of tower?
Call it "Planetary Control Tower"
Allow anchoring of POS mods (maybe defense only)? (CO would anchor inside the shield bubble). -Also, it maybe should only have the same PW and CPU as a small tower.
Allow it to only shoot at who you want it to shoot at (like a POS). That way if you only let blues use it, people will want to attack. If you allow all to use the planet, it should be considerably safer than a CO with no defenses.
As far as fueling goes, maybe only have it need PI goods and perhaps a small, small amount of ice products.
This could solve everyone worrying about investing a lot of isk into a sitting duck, and also give the "little guy" the feeling of actually owning a planet (or the "medium guys" owning a sprawling empire in low sec).
I would LOVE for my small corp to be able to set up 2 or 3 of these and see how it goes. We have a POS set up for PI anyway, so why not just have PI'ers put the isk toward fueling their planetary control towers instead?
***Oh, now that I think of it, perhaps a cargo station that only can hold PI crud.
The CO inside of a shield used for defense? Errm, I go to the CO with my stealth bomber to get my PI materials. Ooops, I'm sorry, those torpedoes somehow launched at your control tower for 20 minutes. Not sure how that happened....really sorry about that. I musta been distracted by the pretty flashes on the shield as your guns blasted away at me.
If only blues are allowed to use it, where is your income coming from? Your taxing yourself essentially, and requiring fuel of some type to do it. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 04:08:00 -
[1364] - Quote
I thought of another grieving tactic that could also be used as a tool to make defense of a PCO very difficult.
I know nothing about when an email is sent that a POS is under attack. So some of this is based on what makes sense, and not necessarily what actually happens.
I assume that a PCO under attack would have the same email sent as a POS under attack. I believe this would be when it is initially attacked and perhaps also when it's put into reinforced mode.
If I were to seriously attack a PCO and wanted to avoid a counterattack, why would I not attack all the PCO's that a corp has in an area? It would generate a ton of emails, some are fake distraction attacks, and there would be 1 real attack. Other than pure luck, how would a defending corp know which PCO was actually under attack? If a PCO can be put into reinforced mode in 20 minutes by a fairly small force, what chance does a corp have of defending it, having to organize and warp to the correct PCO, unless it has very few PCO's?
I can also see bored people just taking pot shots at PCO's not to destroy it, but to annoy someone.
If I get 10 emails a day that my PCO is under attack, how often would I actually go out to defend it?
The PCO has no defenses other than it's hit points. There is nothing preventing even a noob ship shooting a PCO once and warping off to attack some other PCO. There may, or may not be a real attack following.
I can only see 2 solutions to this problem. One I can see is either no emails, or an email when it's put into RF mode, neither of which helps achieve the goal of more player to player interaction. The other is to put guns on the CO to ensure that any attack is a real attack, and I don't like that idea either for several reasons.
As much as I like the idea of profits from taxation and fighting over CO's, the more we discuss it and poke holes in the current proposal, discuss problems with it in low sec, null, or WH's, how it would affect the economy, solution to problems and what effects they would have, the more I wanna say.... leave it just the way it is now.
It's not broken now. You're enhancing it, and as desirable as that is, too many problems result from that enhancement that change too much that you don't want to screw up. We keep trying to shove this in and I really question is it worth it?
So abandon this idea and go work on new content that doesn't break what you have working now. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 04:09:00 -
[1365] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Lastly, if as proposed, PCO's are left fully destructible in all regions (excluding High Sec), then what was the rational for making the gantry volume m3 higher than what a blockade runner could hold?
Two of the blockade runners can fit the gantry. For those who didn't pick the right races, they can cross-train or use a deep space transport and team mates. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1276
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 05:21:00 -
[1366] - Quote
I will be very happy with these changes if:
1) PCOs can anchor one or two defenses like a tower can. Give them some CPU and powergrid to play with. 2) Multiple tax brackets can be defined based on standings and not just give the PCO one tax rate for everyone. 3) 1 Planet can have more than 1 PCO 4) PCOs require no fuel to run. (If they did require fuel, the expenses will be passed on down to the consumer level, which will inflate the PI prices alongside the existing possible inflation based on taxation) |
Nyla Skin
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 08:25:00 -
[1367] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote: It's not broken now. You're enhancing it, and as desirable as that is, too many problems result from that enhancement that change too much that you don't want to screw up. We keep trying to shove this in and I really question is it worth it?
I wouldn't call changing it from something an individual pilot can do into something that is exclusively corp affair, 'enhancing'. This is the biggest issue I have with current proposal. It's likely that CO's will not be destroyed just for giggles as much as I made it sound previously (thankfully planet goods are at least evenly distributed in the universe... for now), but above issue stays.
Im fed up at CCP ignoring individual pilots over and over again. |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
26
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 09:10:00 -
[1368] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max Devious wrote:Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards. You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC.
I think we are all wasting our time here folks............the only answers that CCP are giving are like the one above, it seems POCO's are going to be rolled out as in the original blog otherwise how would a DEV be able to answer this question as definitely as this?
If there was any doubt as to the final implementation the answer would have been worded differently and also note that this is on page 68, so they already know of peoples concerns!
Scarlett Ninja over and out.........going to find something else to do :( |
Xylorn Hasher
Mean Corp Mean Coalition
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 09:16:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Interesting change, that should bring more ppl to lowsec....oh wait it won't.
PCO will cost around 200m per unit - that's maybe 120-150m when market will stabilize. That's lots of ISK for sitting duck! PCO should have some defence capabilities or we will be able to "create spam attack mails horror" with a single Rifter - Paranoia lv5 guaranteed for PCO owner. ( new ransome option: Pay or will be spammed ).
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El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 09:17:00 -
[1370] - Quote
A problem is that we are discussing things while we haven't got a clue of what is going to happen. People see things changing that weren't broken. CCP hasn't stated WHY they want to change PI. Is this merely an expansion where players take over the role of NPCs? Although I like the idea of expanding Eve this way, I don't believe this is the sole reason for introducing custom offices.
I think there are two other motives:
1. Dust514 Dust514 will change PI as it currently is. Eve players will need to interact and trade with Dust players and they will need structures to do so. Dust514 is also one of the reasons why I think nullsec COs can be very profitable: think of the amount of stuff a million Dust players can produce. Think of how much tax you can collect on all the imports and exports from hundreds of Dust players on a single planet.
2. Sov mechanics CCP has stated that they want to change sov mechanics. They lean towards a system where the corporation that de facto uses and controls a system will receive sov. Corporation-owned custom offices are a method of expressing use and control over solar systems, so they can be expected to play a vital role. |
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 09:31:00 -
[1371] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:1. Dust514 Dust514 will change PI as it currently is. Eve players will need to interact and trade with Dust players and they will need structures to do so. Dust514 is also one of the reasons why I think nullsec COs can be very profitable: think of the amount of stuff a million Dust players can produce. Think of how much tax you can collect on all the imports and exports from hundreds of Dust players on a single planet.
Pure speculation, but I think POCOs are hinting of the way Dust will go. CCP introduced PI for the individual player instead of corps, trying to make it more popular. But now they find the individual players are a poor market for Dust mercs, and their PI installations too cheap to fight for. So they are trying to build corp involvement on top of those players to provide conflict.
I bet once Dust is introduced, it will directly affect POCOs in some way. Perhaps import taxes are paid to whoever controls the ground equivalent of a POCO, or you need to control both POCO and surface structure, or something along those lines
Quote:2. Sov mechanics CCP has stated that they want to change sov mechanics. They lean towards a system where the corporation that de facto uses and controls a system will receive sov. Corporation-owned custom offices are a method of expressing use and control over solar systems, so they can be expected to play a vital role.
I really hope not. That would just be a return to POS-based sov, which was hated by all. Owning a structure because nobody can be bothered to shoot it is not using and controlling a system. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 10:11:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max Devious wrote:Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards. You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC. I think we are all wasting our time here folks............the only answers that CCP are giving are like the one above, it seems POCO's are going to be rolled out as in the original blog otherwise how would a DEV be able to answer this question as definitely as this? If there was any doubt as to the final implementation the answer would have been worded differently and also note that this is on page 68, so they already know of peoples concerns! Scarlett Ninja over and out.........going to find something else to do :(
No I am just giving the answers I know for sure. Some other changes are in the pipe but aren't finalized. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
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Par'Gellen
Full Circle Research Corporation
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 10:38:00 -
[1373] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:As earlier mentioned, I was working on compiling a list of concerns with the current design of Player-owned Customs Offices (PCO). I am posting this list here, please have a look if I have missed anything important there. You left out these items especially the problem with storage facilities (Spaceports particularly) being WAY too small even now. Here is the linky |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 12:23:00 -
[1374] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max Devious wrote:Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards. You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC.
One issue I have with aggression on POCOs is the fact that a GCC only lasts 15 minutes. After that 15 minutes is up, a defending fleet will lose standings shooting the offenders once they get to the POCO. Picture this scenario: My indy corp's POCO is under attack, so I get a fleet together to go defend it. That takes anywhere from 15-20 minutes, including travel time to said POCO. Once I get there, the POCO has been reinforced and the offending fleet no longer has aggro, forcing my corp mates to lose standing. I propose that the corp gets 24 hour kill rights on the players that attacked the POCO. This would eliminate the need to lose standings in order to defend an otherwise defenseless structure. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 12:42:00 -
[1375] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max Devious wrote:Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards. You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC. One issue I have with aggression on POCOs is the fact that a GCC only lasts 15 minutes. After that 15 minutes is up, a defending fleet will lose standings shooting the offenders once they get to the POCO. Picture this scenario: My indy corp's POCO is under attack, so I get a fleet together to go defend it. That takes anywhere from 15-20 minutes, including travel time to said POCO. Once I get there, the POCO has been reinforced and the offending fleet no longer has aggro, forcing my corp mates to lose standing. I propose that the corp gets 24 hour kill rights on the players that attacked the POCO. This would eliminate the need to lose standings in order to defend an otherwise defenseless structure.
You have no idea how GCC works.
GCC is renewed with every illegal action, that is, with every shot they take at the POCO. In practice, that means their GCC will last for 15 minutes after they finish reinforcing the structure. If you show up before their GCC ends and start shooting them, they will further extend their GCC by shooting back.
Besides, once the structure is reinforced, there's nothing you can do to defend it until it comes outthe next day, and nothing else for the attackers to shoot. So they will leave the instant it is done. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 12:42:00 -
[1376] - Quote
Nyla Skin wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote: It's not broken now. You're enhancing it, and as desirable as that is, too many problems result from that enhancement that change too much that you don't want to screw up. We keep trying to shove this in and I really question is it worth it?
I wouldn't call changing it from something an individual pilot can do into something that is exclusively corp affair, 'enhancing'. This is the biggest issue I have with current proposal. It's likely that CO's will not be destroyed just for giggles as much as I made it sound previously (thankfully planet goods are at least evenly distributed in the universe... for now), but above issue stays. Im fed up at CCP ignoring individual pilots over and over again.
I'm not sure how long you've been playing EVE, but people almost always shoot things just to shoot things, especially if they're bored. Hell, I shot at an offline TCU for 2 hours yesterday, and it belonged to an alliance that had been long disbanded. Just goes to show you, that if people get bored, they grind out structures, especially ones that don't have defenses. POCOs won't even take 30 minutes to RF, seeing as the HP on those aren't nearly as high as a TCU or an iHub. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 12:50:00 -
[1377] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max Devious wrote:Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards. You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC. One issue I have with aggression on POCOs is the fact that a GCC only lasts 15 minutes. After that 15 minutes is up, a defending fleet will lose standings shooting the offenders once they get to the POCO. Picture this scenario: My indy corp's POCO is under attack, so I get a fleet together to go defend it. That takes anywhere from 15-20 minutes, including travel time to said POCO. Once I get there, the POCO has been reinforced and the offending fleet no longer has aggro, forcing my corp mates to lose standing. I propose that the corp gets 24 hour kill rights on the players that attacked the POCO. This would eliminate the need to lose standings in order to defend an otherwise defenseless structure. You have no idea how GCC works. GCC is renewed with every illegal action, that is, with every shot they take at the POCO. In practice, that means their GCC will last for 15 minutes after they finish reinforcing the structure. If you show up before their GCC ends and start shooting them, they will further extend their GCC by shooting back. Besides, once the structure is reinforced, there's nothing you can do to defend it until it comes outthe next day, and nothing else for the attackers to shoot. So they will leave the instant it is done.
I know how GCC works.... I was saying that after they stop shooting the POCO. I can see a scenario where people shoot the POCO just to lure out industrial corps from high sec to shoot at or just to annoy people. For instance, if I shoot a POCO and then cloak up, I can wait until the defending fleet comes to defend, finds nothing, then leaves. After they leave, I could shoot it again, and get them back; rinse and repeat. That's the reason a person that shoots at it should receive 24 kill rights. 1.) So that you can prevent them from shooting at it by sticking around and 2.) As a further deterrence from shooting at it. As CCP has said before, they want to give no rewards from shooting at these other than people wanting to anchor their own in its place. This would go a long way in making that possible.
I'm mainly thinking about this in terms of low-sec. In 0.0, these would almost definitely be placed in constantly defended systems to prevent small roams from taking them out. In w-space, you would rarely get a gang larger than 20 members (unless you're in a C5 or a C6) and the RF timer makes it so that you know EXACTLY where they're going to be when it ends. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 12:51:00 -
[1378] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max Devious wrote:Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards. You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC. One issue I have with aggression on POCOs is the fact that a GCC only lasts 15 minutes. After that 15 minutes is up, a defending fleet will lose standings shooting the offenders once they get to the POCO. Picture this scenario: My indy corp's POCO is under attack, so I get a fleet together to go defend it. That takes anywhere from 15-20 minutes, including travel time to said POCO. Once I get there, the POCO has been reinforced and the offending fleet no longer has aggro, forcing my corp mates to lose standing. I propose that the corp gets 24 hour kill rights on the players that attacked the POCO. This would eliminate the need to lose standings in order to defend an otherwise defenseless structure.
There is little reason to attack the aggressors while the CO is in reinforcement. Wait for reinforcement to end and then repair your CO. If they then attack the CO again, you can shoot them.
You're screwed if you have set multiple COs to come out of reinforcement at roughly the same time though. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 13:16:00 -
[1379] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote: I know how GCC works.... I was saying that after they stop shooting the POCO. I can see a scenario where people shoot the POCO just to lure out industrial corps from high sec to shoot at or just to annoy people. For instance, if I shoot a POCO and then cloak up, I can wait until the defending fleet comes to defend, finds nothing, then leaves. After they leave, I could shoot it again, and get them back; rinse and repeat.
What's the point in doing that? And even if you did it, most of the time people will ignore it until the POCO gets reinforced.
Question for the devs, tho. Once a POCO comes out of reinforcement, what's the victory condition for the defender? Do you have to rep up the shield before it can be reinforced again? To what level?
If there is one thing in EVE more boring than shooting structures it's repping them. It takes about 10 hours for a single logi to rep 10M shield HP. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 13:17:00 -
[1380] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max Devious wrote:Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards. You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC. One issue I have with aggression on POCOs is the fact that a GCC only lasts 15 minutes. After that 15 minutes is up, a defending fleet will lose standings shooting the offenders once they get to the POCO. Picture this scenario: My indy corp's POCO is under attack, so I get a fleet together to go defend it. That takes anywhere from 15-20 minutes, including travel time to said POCO. Once I get there, the POCO has been reinforced and the offending fleet no longer has aggro, forcing my corp mates to lose standing. I propose that the corp gets 24 hour kill rights on the players that attacked the POCO. This would eliminate the need to lose standings in order to defend an otherwise defenseless structure. There is little reason to attack the aggressors while the CO is in reinforcement. Wait for reinforcement to end and then repair your CO. If they then attack the CO again, you can shoot them. You're screwed if you have set multiple COs to come out of reinforcement at roughly the same time though.
I've clarified this in the previous post. I was looking at this as more of a griefing tactic prevention. Shoot the POCO once, then dock and wait for defending fleet to leave, then undock and shoot at it again. Rinse and repeat. A 24 hour kill right will at least let the defending fleet leave a token force that won't lose standings shooting at the griefer. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
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Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 13:20:00 -
[1381] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote: I know how GCC works.... I was saying that after they stop shooting the POCO. I can see a scenario where people shoot the POCO just to lure out industrial corps from high sec to shoot at or just to annoy people. For instance, if I shoot a POCO and then cloak up, I can wait until the defending fleet comes to defend, finds nothing, then leaves. After they leave, I could shoot it again, and get them back; rinse and repeat.
What's the point in doing that? And even if you did it, most of the time people will ignore it until the POCO gets reinforced. Question for the devs, tho. Once a POCO comes out of reinforcement, what's the victory condition for the defender? Do you have to rep up the shield before it can be reinforced again? To what level? If there is one thing in EVE more boring than shooting structures it's repping them. It takes about 10 hours for a single logi to rep 10M shield HP.
Point of of doing that is harassment.
Anyway, I agree completely. No one wants to sit there for 4 hours in a carrier repping a POCO back to 100%. Yet another reason why, at least in low-sec, POCOs should be conquerable. Same mechanics as proposed, except no BOOM, just a flip. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 13:23:00 -
[1382] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:I've clarified this in the previous post. I was looking at this as more of a griefing tactic prevention. Shoot the POCO once, then dock and wait for defending fleet to leave, then undock and shoot at it again. Rinse and repeat. A 24 hour kill right will at least let the defending fleet leave a token force that won't lose standings shooting at the griefer.
If anyone tries that, he will lose sec too, and pretty soon will go under -5. Then you'll enjoy a permanent killright on him What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 13:25:00 -
[1383] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:I've clarified this in the previous post. I was looking at this as more of a griefing tactic prevention. Shoot the POCO once, then dock and wait for defending fleet to leave, then undock and shoot at it again. Rinse and repeat. A 24 hour kill right will at least let the defending fleet leave a token force that won't lose standings shooting at the griefer. If anyone tries that, he will lose sec too, and pretty soon will go under -5. Then you'll enjoy a permanent killright on him
True, but apparently you've never made a throw away alt for scouting, cyno, super-cap purchases, etc. I can see a person creating a noob alt, flying them out there in their rookie ship, taking a few pot shots, then docking up and logging off. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 13:34:00 -
[1384] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Anyway, I agree completely. No one wants to sit there for 4 hours in a carrier repping a POCO back to 100%. Yet another reason why, at least in low-sec, POCOs should be conquerable. Same mechanics as proposed, except no BOOM, just a flip. You still need a victory condition for the defender then. For conquerable outposts, you can blow up the SBUs and avoid repping the station. For POCOs, I'd say a timer (say 1 hour) after coming out of RF before it self-reps would be perfect.
Quote:True, but apparently you've never made a throw away alt for scouting, cyno, super-cap purchases, etc. I can see a person creating a noob alt, flying them out there in their rookie ship, taking a few pot shots, then docking up and logging off. So? The char that shoots the POCO will lose sec. It doesn't matter if it's in an ibis or a dread. Unless you want to transfer the aggro to his main somehow? What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 13:43:00 -
[1385] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:So? The char that shoots the POCO will lose sec. It doesn't matter if it's in an ibis or a dread. Unless you want to transfer the aggro to his main somehow?
Not my point. The point is that the notification that's given to the corp that owns the POCO will cause them to defend it. when they arrive and see nothing, they RR and leave. It just makes having POCOs that much more annoying.
I guess my point is that CCP hasn't thought the POCO mechanics all the way through. The dev blog was helpful in getting what the basics that they are going to do, but it lacked ALOT of info as to how these will function in the eve universe, especially as they relate to the player base in low/00/w-space. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 13:48:00 -
[1386] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:You still need a victory condition for the defender then. For conquerable outposts, you can blow up the SBUs and avoid repping the station. For POCOs, I'd say a timer (say 1 hour) after coming out of RF before it self-reps would be perfect.
Very possible.
Just to play devil's advocate here, I could bring in faction warfare control bunker mechanics and say that a victory condition isn't needed, just that the ownership switches on the next downtime after RF ends.
Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 14:27:00 -
[1387] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:[...] If I were to seriously attack a PCO and wanted to avoid a counterattack, why would I not attack all the PCO's that a corp has in an area? It would generate a ton of emails, some are fake distraction attacks, and there would be 1 real attack. Other than pure luck, how would a defending corp know which PCO was actually under attack? If a PCO can be put into reinforced mode in 20 minutes by a fairly small force, what chance does a corp have of defending it, having to organize and warp to the correct PCO, unless it has very few PCO's?
I can also see bored people just taking pot shots at PCO's not to destroy it, but to annoy someone.
If I get 10 emails a day that my PCO is under attack, how often would I actually go out to defend it?
The PCO has no defenses other than it's hit points. There is nothing preventing even a noob ship shooting a PCO once and warping off to attack some other PCO. There may, or may not be a real attack following.
[...]
Notifications for POS generate one mail per hour per target, included is the shield/armor/structure level and name/corp/alliance of the attacker. So attacking a POCO for 30 minutes generates exactly 1 mail. "Per target" means that if they don't just shoot the control tower, but guns or something it will generate another mail for that, don't know if it would for every single sentry or just the first/one of them though.
Back to the Tactic: I's of course a valid tactic. Why wouldn't you do this every time? Because you need more people and/or you reduce the number of people shooting at the primary target. If you have 10 people shooting at it, it will reinforce in a couple of minutes anyway (depending on ships probably 10-15 at the most). Why dilute your forces? The enemy is unlikely to respond in that time frame in most cases. If he does, having a couple of other POCOs under attack might give you enough time to finish the job, but you would probably already be done with all shooting at the same target. He has to scout around to find the primary site. Also: the others attacking the non-primary target (just 1 person each I suppose?) are very vulnerable. Even if they are in crap ships they still generate a nice (and in that case easy) killmail to pad the kb with. You warped your fleet to the wrong POCO because you were to lazy (or had no time) to send a scout ahead? Just pick them off 1 by one that way, works too and might cost even more than the 1 POCO, which is only reinforced after this, not destroyed.
This tactic has much more disadvantages than advantages, but in any case it has counters and surely fits nice in the EVE universe if you ask me!
Why not shoot at a dozen or so? Because you get a security status hit (unless you're at war obviously), that's what's stopping you (and this is confirmed by CCP!). What would be stopping someone with -10 sec status? the fact that he has better things to do (like shoot actual people) hopefully, but apart from that nothing. Somehow I doubt it will become a problem though... If you are at war it's of course a valid tactic to at least annoy your enemy. Go knock yourself out if you consider this fun ^^
The reinforcement mechanic is there for a specific reason: To create a fight AFTER a structure exits it, not before. We wouldn't need it then, would we? If you agree with the mechanic or not, the fight is still supposed to happen upon reinforcement exit. The amount of HP is balanced (quite well if you ask me): low enough to have it take long enough so not every damn one of these things for 5 systems is reinforced by a 5 man gang in 30 minutes, but also not so high that you need to shoot at it for 4 hours with 15+ dreads. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 14:28:00 -
[1388] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Just to play devil's advocate here, I could bring in faction warfare control bunker mechanics and say that a victory condition isn't needed, just that the ownership switches on the next downtime after RF ends.
FW has people online all day, so you have some chance of getting a fight at a random time with little warning. A normal corp doesn't. Even the big blocs have their prime time. The defender needs at least a chance to defend in their own timezone: a reinforcement timer, a fight after it ends, and a way to win that fight and return to status quo.
If these structures don't encourage fights, they are pointless, nobody likes shooting structures. If you want these to change hands without fighting, maybe we should be able to lease them off the empires instead? The highest bidder each month gets to charge tax for the CO?
NOTE: that last bit was not a serious proposal. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 14:44:00 -
[1389] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:Just to play devil's advocate here, I could bring in faction warfare control bunker mechanics and say that a victory condition isn't needed, just that the ownership switches on the next downtime after RF ends. FW has people online all day, so you have some chance of getting a fight at a random time with little warning. A normal corp doesn't. Even the big blocs have their prime time. The defender needs at least a chance to defend in their own timezone: a reinforcement timer, a fight after it ends, and a way to win that fight and return to status quo. If these structures don't encourage fights, they are pointless, nobody likes shooting structures. If you want these to change hands without fighting, maybe we should be able to lease them off the empires instead? The highest bidder each month gets to charge tax for the CO? NOTE: that last bit was not a serious proposal.
Well, I wouldn't be so sure. Sure, the taxes would be astronomical so the corp renting it could make a profit, but it would encourage a lot more wardecs, or perhaps a new kind of economic warfare? Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 15:28:00 -
[1390] - Quote
(Had to shorten the quote to get enough characters to be able to respond. Original post I have quoted is here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=237400#post237400 )
Meldan Anstian wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:Indestructible POCOs, switching owners upon attack: HORRIBLE idea!!!
Keep current COs until players replace them:
Tax as % of transferred goods instead of fixed ISK rate:
Size of planetary launches: A. I understand your argument against indestructible structures. I do agree that "attack here for profit" is a problem, but making them destructible doesn't solve that. [...] One assumption that many seem to make, is that destroying a PCO is with the intent of putting one up in it's place. I think many attacks would be just for lol's and the killmails, not for any potential profits from putting up a PCO in it's place. We can not assume that there would be an interest to put up a new PCO if the old one were destroyed, either by the ones destroying it or anyone else. If your doing PI on a planet, suddenly not having a PCO there drastically changes the attractiveness of that planet for PI. If your constantly dealing with planets that suddenly don't have a PCO, you stop doing PI in anything other than high sec. I do not think we can assume that those doing PI will put up a PCO, since PI is often done by poor and low SP characters. Not knowing if your PI planet will have a PCO tomorrow doesn't make you want to invest in an elaborate high income PI setup on a planet. You need elaborate high income PI setups to justify investing in a PCO. PI people need some kind of stability or they just wont invest in PI. I think the end result is a huge impact on the economy that we can't predict now, and this whole plan revolves having sufficient people doing PI to make taxes profitable. So having destructible PCO's is a bad idea in my opinion. Problem with indestructible POCOs: It gives even more power to the power blocs we already have. Keep in mind that with the currently proposed mechanic just because there is a POCO doesn't mean you can use it! So you might not only lose access but also have a now unfriendly POCO you're unable to destroy as a small industrial corp, instead of just having the cost of putting another one up. Powerful entities would not have to invest a single ISK to get control of regions POCOs. While the income from one or even 10 POCOs may be negligible, it eventually does add up if you have 100-300. All they need to do it have a gang of say a dozen or two reinforce all those, come back after 2 days and take over every POCO whose shied was not repaired to the 25% needed to reset the reinforcement mode. Repeat once a month or so. Yea, the access to the planets will stay there IF they allow neutrals/reds (depends on if this is gonna be changed). And they can at least in theory take it back but they easily have the numbers to defend that and ward of any attacks that industrial corps can usually manage (let's say they just drop 10 carriers and 20 BS, rarely can an industrial corp can match that) and they get some ships to shoot at. They have NO upkeep cost for any of this, again: NOT A SINGLE ISK HAS TO BE SPENT BY THE ATTACKER FOR THIS!
With destructible POCOs the incentive for large entities to attack drops significantly. Yes, they can grieve people, but it's tedious and provides NO payout WHATSOEVER. They don't drop anything upon destruction. It would be solely to grieve, and there is no reason anyone would do that on a large scale except to influence the market and control prices. Providing a payout to grieving these structures is a very VERY bad thing in my opinion!
Also see my answer to C below for additional thoughts on this in combination with other mechanics!
Meldan Anstian wrote:B. I agree that the NPC CO's should stay in game. As to have the taxes increased over time to a point or indefinitely, I disagree. The incentive to put up PCO that your not seeing should be the profits of taxation. I don't think this plan gives enough profits to justify the investment, but that's a side issue. The problem is that many planets are low resource planets, and are not profitable enough to interest a corp to put up a POCO there, ever. As the NPC tax goes up and up, eventually the planet is removed from the pool of useful planets - not enough tax to have a POCO put on it, but too high taxes to do profitable PI on the planet. I agree, the problem with profit and return of investment needs to be fixed independently (and that it's a side issue). If this isn't change the whole PI market will go bananas anyway. I think these NPC COs should be removed after a while, but an alternative would still be to just increase the price until it is so high that it exceeds the value of the items, and the remove it. This would then allow the global removal of all those remaining at some time in the future.
continued below.... |
|
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 15:28:00 -
[1391] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:C. Hate the idea of taxes being actual goods and not ISK. How does a corp get the goods out of a POCO to haul them to market? The volume of the collected taxes would be substantial. I am not going to fly a freighter in low/null/WH space to collect my taxes from POCO's. I just won't have POCO's. Only potential ship I see is a JF, and then fuel costs cut into already slim profits. Never mind having to keep track of how much taxes are in various POCO's. I think this would mean 0 tax in null and WHs, just so you would not have to go get your taxes, and no one wanting to put up a POCO in low sec. People stop PI because it's a PITA to haul stuff around, and people would stop owning POCO's because it's a PITA to haul stuff around. This provides a disincentive for power blocks, the only suggestion in this direction I've seen so far. It limits the amount of POCOs a corp can reasonably manage profitably. PI is logistics. That's the whole point! Up till now it's the only activity resulting from PI besides clicking "install program" a couple of times every now and then. If you don't want to haul stuff around, don't do PI! This should of course extend to operating POCOs. It will also take quite a while for on of these to actually fill up 35k m-¦ (assuming the proposed corp tax hangar thingy gets to be the same size as personal hangars). You can empty them if/when they get full or once a week with a standard deep space or even T1 hauler (whatever suits your desired ISK vs. risk level). Taken from your own statistics below, if you have a 10% tax it will be 260-300 m-¦ per P1-colony per day (much less for P2-P4!). That can easily be handled for 5-10 POCOs by collecting the stuff just once a week.
This is also a mechanic that could make indestructible POCOs feasible. Large entities no longer have an incentive to take over hundred of theses, as they'd have to collect the goods resulting from taxes! If they still take them over, eventually they would get full and not require any tax anymore unless the stuff is collected. No more ISK magically appearing for those taking them over, best solution of all if you ask me!
Meldan Anstian wrote:D. Size of planetary launches - I have lvl 4 in command centers. With that, I can get about 7000 units of P1 materials (like oxygen) from a planet doing nothing else in 24 hours. That's 2660 m3 of volume. Guessing lvl 5 would get me 3000 m3 of volume. If I can launch something near that volume, my production is the same but my taxes are very low. So are the profits of the POCO, since people launch and avoid the POCO taxes. More disincentive to put up a POCO. If I can launch 2500 m3 of stuff and have it cost 25k to do so, or I can use the POCO and pay 20k in taxes, guess what, I'll launch every time. Getting my launch in essentially a safe spot or going to what could be a camped hostile POCO for the difference of 5k ISK, or even 100k? What would you choose? As much as I like the idea of adding flexibility and making the command center something worth clicking on, doing so really breaks the profitability of POCO's, already of very dubious profitability. Yes I see your point about this, but it's all just a question of balance and price. You just made up a bunch of numbers where it's much more favorable to use the launch. It shouldn't be that cheap of course, but equate to a significant tax rate (70%?), so that using the CO is the much more sensible option if it has a reasonable tax rate. Using the CO will still be the better option if you want to collect large amounts in one run (maybe even at 100% tax), not launch half a dozen can's (which would obviously require a cool down on the launch, maybe an hour?). It depends then on your play style, do you prefer 10 trips in a blockade runner at a premium for export or just one in a deep space transport... |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
542
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 15:37:00 -
[1392] - Quote
What if POCO worked like this:
1) You cannot un-anchor a POCO or gantry 2) While only one POCO can be anchored, any number of gantries can be. 3) If there is only one anchored item, it uses the planet's magnetic field to make itself invulnerable. 4) If more than one item is anchored this invulnerability is disrupted and all can be attacked.
Result: drive by shootings no longer work, grief killings are virtually gone. If you want to destroy a POCO you got to commit, buy one yourself and anchor it. Sorry griefers, but eve is a cruel place.
Second result: This becomes even more the domain of the big boys. So lets do this as well:
If you build a launchpad on the planet and you cannot use the POCO (either because its not there, or you do not have rights) you can launch a 10,000 cu m can from the pad. Cost to be worked out, but high.
I am running for the CSM. Take a look at my ideas. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 15:50:00 -
[1393] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:Powerful entities would not have to invest a single ISK to get control of regions POCOs. While the income from one or even 10 POCOs may be negligible, it eventually does add up if you have 100-300. All they need to do it have a gang of say a dozen or two reinforce all those, come back after 2 days and take over every POCO whose shied was not repaired to the 25% needed to reset the reinforcement mode. Repeat once a month or so. Yea, the access to the planets will stay there IF they allow neutrals/reds (depends on if this is gonna be changed). And they can at least in theory take it back but they easily have the numbers to defend that and ward of any attacks that industrial corps can usually manage (let's say they just drop 10 carriers and 20 BS, rarely can an industrial corp can match that) and they get some ships to shoot at. They have NO upkeep cost for any of this, again: NOT A SINGLE ISK HAS TO BE SPENT BY THE ATTACKER FOR THIS!
ISK is not a deterrent. For big alliances, isk is never the limiting factor, the number of active players is.
It's going to be pretty hard to convince any number of alliance grunts to log on and do 20 jumps to shoot the POCOs of lowsec/npc region (home region is different).
On the other hand, for the people who live in a system, taking the POCOs that alliance left behind is going to be pretty easy. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 15:54:00 -
[1394] - Quote
(quoting response 1390 by Creat)
I don't disagree at all that it is a valid tactic.
The idea of this whole thing is to increase player to player interaction. If, as you propose, it's very challenging to get a fleet together to go out and defend your PCO before it gets reinforced, you are increasing player interaction, but only marginally.
1 player vulnerable? Yeah, to an extent I guess. In the vast emptiness of low, null and WH space, not very much exposed, especially if your diversionary attackers are in a cloaky. It doesn't take a BS to generate a warning email.
Kill off defending players 1 by 1? You're kidding right? If the defender is so stupid to warp to 0 to see if someone is attacking a PCO, they deserve to lose it. Have a tactical 150+ km away from the POCO and you can see if a attack is occurring in your battleship and warp off before you can be tackled.
Why would you send ships out worth more than the PCO to begin with? The only thing you are defending is the income, and the value (80 mil ISK) of the PCO. You don't lose SOV, you don't loose assets held within the PCO, you don't get anchored structures around the PCO. Yeah, I would go for a fight for fights sake, but you don't need a PCO to get into a fleet fight.
I think the dev's are comparing a POS attack with a PCO attack, and I don't think that is a fair comparison. POS's have significant defenses which shoot first that would have a tendency to discourage people shooting just to have a email sent.
I do agree that many people won't use a diverse attack to attack a PCO. Too much of a pain. The more serious problem is random people just generating tons of emails to PCO owners. The end result is that you never go out to defend a PCO. The purpose of the PCO (to increase interaction) doesn't occur.
Security stasis hit? Only in low sec. Not in WH's and not in null sec. If I'm already at -10 which is not too unusual, why would I care any way? Better things to do for those with -10 stasis? Assuming that a email is not generated when a PCO is put into RF mode, you have to go out to check to see if your PCO is in RF mode. I might kill you when you come to check, or if the PCO is in reinforced mode, when your sitting there for minutes in a 130m ISK uncloaked logi repping the 80m ISK PCO. (Why would a logi pilot do that... I'm not sure, but they could. I wouldn't). Bring a fleet to keep the logi safe? Sure, it's easy to get 10 pilots to spend 30 minutes of their game time to save 80mil ISK. They make an average of what 20 mil ISK an hour each, so it cost them 100m ISK to save 80m ISK.
Why defend (or attack) the PCO when it comes out of RF mode? It's 80m ISK, and doesnt generate much income, not worth much effort to defend it. I get a kill mail if I destroy it, but other than that... I get no ISK. Not worth much effort to destroy it, especially if I don't have a desire to put up my own PCO in it's place.
I would think, atleast in low sec, those putting up PCO's would not be the same group of people attacking them for the most part. If I'm in the group trying to make money with a PCO, 80mil PCO loss would be a cost of doing business. Loosing a couple t1 BC's worth 40mil each in defending that 80mil PCO, and you quickly learn that it's better letting the PCO get destroyed and replacing it later than defending it.
It's been my argument all along, the economics don't make sense with the plan as proposed. I don't see a way to make the economics work without breaking lots of other things in the process, at least that accomplishes the 2 goals they started out to achieve.
If your a Trekkie, remember the episode in ST:TNG where Data creates a daughter named Lal? Lal dies because of a cascading failure that keeps growing. That's like this idea. Fixing the original idea breaks something else. Fixing that breaks something else, the fix for that breaks something else, etc, etc. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:01:00 -
[1395] - Quote
Responding to Creat Posudol's responses.
I understand what your saying about the problems with indestructible PCOs. I don't think the large power blocks would be interested in spending 2 days a month to remove non-power block PCO's from their system. 1 day to put them in RF and another to switch them. It's boring and the rewards are small.
Yes, you do get significant income from 100-300 PCO's. But the ratio of investment to return does not change. The time involved with managing 100-300 PCO's is much more than if you have 2 PCO's. With 2, just every week or whatever, you go out and empty them. With hundreds, you have spreadsheets and schedules and such to do the same task. The administrative time per PCO is way up compared to just a couple PCOs, and the return for that time is very small. 1 or 2 people can't empty hundreds every week, which then adds in the issue of corp theft and corp roles. (cringe)
Not a single ISK needs to be spent by the attacker with destructible PCO's either. I proposed indestructible PCO's way back in page 40 something IIRC, simply as a way to make the economics work.
In your next response, you gave numbers of 300m3 of P1 goods per colony per week. Lets assume 5 colonies per planet? Sound fair? So 1500 m3 of P1 goods, or ~3950 P1 units, each worth currently ~750 ISK (which is high at the moment because of this discussion). Your taxes for a week is just under 3 mil ISK. If you spend 80 mil ISK to put up a PCO, it would take 6 months to get your 80m ISK investment back. Sorry, but there is no way in hell I would invest that, and hope it doesn't get destroyed for 6 months before I earned a profit. I invest 80mil in any other venture in Eve, earn vastly more with less risk, and I wouldn't need to haul something from it every week.
Yup, I am using contrived numbers for my example. We have to start someplace. It's hard to come up with real world numbers when the tax rate can vary between 0 and 100%, the amount of resources can vary, the number of colonies can vary from 0 to 20 (?), and the size, cost, and cool down timer of a command center launch is undetermined. The point I was trying to make is that to make PCO's work, you have to keep them cheaper than simply launching stuff into space. As you increase the size of the launch, that becomes harder to do. This also touches on the idea of locking non-blue PI out of the PCO and ninja PI. You need big launches for ninja PI make sense in the case of being locked out of a PCO, and ability to lock PCO's is strongly desired by SOV and WH players.
Don't think I didn't notice that you argued against indestructible PCO's on 1 hand, and then for them in the next response!!! :)
I don't think indestructible structures are a perfect solution, but I do think they are better than destructible ones, given the economics. I really really would disagree with making dramatic game changing economic changes to get this plan into the game, and I think that would be necessary to get the economics of owning a destructible PCO to make sense. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:47:00 -
[1396] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Lastly, if as proposed, PCO's are left fully destructible in all regions (excluding High Sec), then what was the rational for making the gantry volume m3 higher than what a blockade runner could hold? Two of the blockade runners can fit the gantry. For those who didn't pick the right races, they can cross-train or use a deep space transport and team mates.
I was unaware... I would still wonder though, given the impetus to encourage PCO anchoring, why it wasn't set at a volume to accommodate all Blockade Runners (i.e. Crane)? |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:17:00 -
[1397] - Quote
Still hating the idea of this taking someone's control of their own PI and putting it in the hands of the corporation. So much of the game requires cooperation to play well, if at all already. Leaving people that little bit of "me time" activity, when they want to break from doing this or that with these guys or those guys... this is important simply from the mental health standpoint of the game. If every part of the game turns into a "cooperation required" event it's going to eventually begin to burn people out.
Sometimes it's just nice to log into the hole, kick back and mess with the PI a bit. There's already the risk that someone can come in and blast everything you have away... risk is inherent in the game after all. However this puts the PI in the hands of someone else who can screw with you even during relaxing times. Actually, this is likely a bigger problem in empire, where some bunghole can put one of these things up on the planets you've been working for months and now you're totally cut off from your own little bit of activities... for what?
It's really not making sense to take personal control of PI out of the player's hands and giving the power to corporations. In the long run, it'll damage the game for many on a personal level well outside of the pew-pew risks, etc. I think it's important to preserve what little "me time" people do have in an MMO which already has a lot that requires co-op, as an MMO should. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Lolmer
Yahoo Inc Caffeine Nicotine and Hate
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:19:00 -
[1398] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". No drop, the items are just destroyed.
What kind of ******** idea is that? Why won't items drop after we destroy the "container"? That's not how EvE works! Even PLEX drops, and items in POS' drop, why would items in the POCO not drop? |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 19:04:00 -
[1399] - Quote
Lolmer wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". No drop, the items are just destroyed. What kind of ******** idea is that? Why won't items drop after we destroy the "container"? That's not how EvE works! Even PLEX drops, and items in POS' drop, why would items in the POCO not drop?
Yet another example of how poorly thought out this idea is. Do the folks on the team working on the new CO even play Eve?
Issler |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 19:26:00 -
[1400] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Lolmer wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Hundo Kay wrote:I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.
Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?
This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.
If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.
If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.
We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?
So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". No drop, the items are just destroyed. What kind of ******** idea is that? Why won't items drop after we destroy the "container"? That's not how EvE works! Even PLEX drops, and items in POS' drop, why would items in the POCO not drop? Yet another example of how poorly thought out this idea is. Do the folks on the team working on the new CO even play Eve? Issler
Earlier you were talking about how people would be taking theses down just for the sake of grief play. If that's the case, not having them drop anything is smart move. It ensures that taking these down is not a profitable venture, increasing the chances they will be left up or only taken down by someone with the intent to replace them. To what degree it will be effective is anyone's guess, but the fact that they cut that off in the thought process suggests that yes, they do play this game, to the point that they know exactly what you were thinking. |
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 20:28:00 -
[1401] - Quote
No drop from a PCO, protects PI Operators.
It would be far to easy and profitable for a corporation to allow an accumulation of material from neutral pilots in their PCO, and then just blow it up themselves to get the drop.
Then put up a new one, and rinse and repeat.
While a loot drop would be in keeping with EVE, it can't be implemented for a single point of access like a PCO without it being severely abused imo.
So while it might be ideal, it is impractical. |
Circumstantial Evidence
34
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 21:15:00 -
[1402] - Quote
CCP Omen 2011.10.18 15:56 wrote:Orakkus wrote:...do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both? Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 21:29:00 -
[1403] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Earlier you were talking about how people would be taking theses down just for the sake of grief play. If that's the case, not having them drop anything is smart move. It ensures that taking these down is not a profitable venture, increasing the chances they will be left up or only taken down by someone with the intent to replace them. To what degree it will be effective is anyone's guess, but the fact that they cut that off in the thought process suggests that yes, they do play this game, to the point that they know exactly what you were thinking.
The thing is - how often do people really leave PI goods sitting in the customs office?
W-space? Likely, because logistics out of the hole can be an issue some weeks.
Lo-sec? Not as likely, unless the planet was full and it wasn't safe enough to haul.
If POCOs are destroyable, people will not leave their stuff in the POCO for longer then necessary. Therefore, whether they drop stuff is not going to have much effect on destroying them to get at the stuff inside. The vast majority of the time, when you blow up a POCO there is going to be nothing there to "get".
POCOs should be destroyable, and they should have the same drop mechanics as other destroyable containers. But POCOs also need the possibility of setting up defenses equivalent to a medium POS at a minimum.
(I suspect the reason why CCP is not doing this is more to do with code-complexity rather then "should" or "should not".) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 21:55:00 -
[1404] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Earlier you were talking about how people would be taking theses down just for the sake of grief play. If that's the case, not having them drop anything is smart move. It ensures that taking these down is not a profitable venture, increasing the chances they will be left up or only taken down by someone with the intent to replace them. To what degree it will be effective is anyone's guess, but the fact that they cut that off in the thought process suggests that yes, they do play this game, to the point that they know exactly what you were thinking.
The thing is - how often do people really leave PI goods sitting in the customs office? W-space? Likely, because logistics out of the hole can be an issue some weeks. Lo-sec? Not as likely, unless the planet was full and it wasn't safe enough to haul. If POCOs are destroyable, people will not leave their stuff in the POCO for longer then necessary. Therefore, whether they drop stuff is not going to have much effect on destroying them to get at the stuff inside. The vast majority of the time, when you blow up a POCO there is going to be nothing there to "get". POCOs should be destroyable, and they should have the same drop mechanics as other destroyable containers. But POCOs also need the possibility of setting up defenses equivalent to a medium POS at a minimum. (I suspect the reason why CCP is not doing this is more to do with code-complexity rather then "should" or "should not".) You may well be right on the point of needing defenses for the POCO's, I'm not going to debate that as it wasn't the aspect I was replying to. The point of my post is to emphasize how, considering that most of the posts saying this won't work simply because of grief play in lowsec, it makes no sense to be surprised by or complain about CCP listening to then and taking steps to remove obvious incentives to destroy the POCO's. It makes even less sense to say that it's evidence of CCP not knowing their game. If anything it shows that they are making game mechanics bend to give this some possibility of working, which means they have foreseen at least one of the problems it can cause. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 22:05:00 -
[1405] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
If POCOs are destroyable, people will not leave their stuff in the POCO for longer then necessary. Therefore, whether they drop stuff is not going to have much effect on destroying them to get at the stuff inside. The vast majority of the time, when you blow up a POCO there is going to be nothing there to "get".
POCOs should be destroyable, and they should have the same drop mechanics as other destroyable containers. But POCOs also need the possibility of setting up defenses equivalent to a medium POS at a minimum.
Ok, how do we make the economics work with destructible stations? Or indestructible stations for that matter.
I think any solution must meet the following criteria:
1. I think, and I have heard no disagreement, that there should not be a dramatic change to the economy. 10% boost to PI material prices is not a problem IMO, but 4x prices (or higher) is a no go with me. Current tax on a robotics is 300, max tax would be 6000, I don't see that as a huge problem, as that is less than ~10% the current going rate of robotics (75k or so).
2. There must be enough profit to pay for any investment in a PCO in a reasonable period of time. 6 months is not reasonable. What would be reasonable, can be discussed further.
3. There must be sufficient reason both to attack and defend a PCO. Otherwise the goal of increasing player interaction is not met.
4. PI, which is different from PCO ownership, should still work as intended - approximately the same reward, for the same amount of risk, for the same time,SP, and ISK investment. I don't think dramatically changing the role of PI is or should be a goal, nor should how PI is done dramatically change.
5. Make sense in low sec, null sec and WH space. I would disagree with a proposal that would have radically different mechanics in different sec status systems.
6. Any increase in command center launch capability (size of launch, cool down timer or ISK cost) must be balanced to still encourage the use of a PCO, but not too severely deter someone from using a planet where there is no PCO.
I still think my proposal is the best that I have read. Does it address all the above successfully? I don't think so. Nor does any other that I have seen.
As of right now, I'm in favor of abandoning the idea and not changing anything.
Rather than argue bits and pieces, I would love to see more ideas about a complete solution where the economics make sense. |
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 22:42:00 -
[1406] - Quote
Sorry but err; I think you CCP guys are still a few cells short of a brain. When you have a Corp settled in a WH and they own the Customs offices who the heck do you think they are going to charge for their usage when the Corp members are making stuff for the Corp anyway. No self respecting WH invader is going to be interested in doing PI, he just wants to shoot ****.. and rightly so. donGÇÖt forget the Corp numbers in WH space and its hmmm, random accessibility, kind of makes defending them effectively very unlikely, not so in low or null sec where groups can be assembled and fly in on both sides to have some pew-pew fun. Setting up say a minimum of 6 Customs offices which bring in no revenue to their users, only added costs (Oh wait they might save a few measly K Isk on each transaction) to and from the planet for the outlay of close on 500 mil for the 6 gantries and the items to turn those six into customs offices. Interesting, do you run CCP's finances the same way, no? Thought so, like hell you would, you would be bankrupt in 6months or less. Typically you are applying low or null sec parameters to WH space which has its own rules, benefits, and risks, which means it should have slightly different parameters, as you have for the Empire ones. Not the same as Empire of course (that would be just as daft), but some which allow for the anomalies of WH life. I have tried to show what In my opinion is an error in your set up, by attempting to view it from both side, me I look forward to some pew- pew it may bring, but I donGÇÖt want to lose my fun by this method of seemingly downward logarithmic spiralling of WH targets which become too costly for corps to maintain.
|
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 23:30:00 -
[1407] - Quote
I like the idea for further player involvement, but a couple comments... 1) no security defenses? And these are only for low/null sec? Yikes, this seems rather contradictory. 2) why not in High sec? Make it Just like POS for placement in limited security systems. That would definitely open up player interactions there too. Defense contracts, industrial corps hiring mercs to help eliminate their competition, ect. After-all a grand majority still reside in High-sec. eëÆWhomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my AutocannonseëÆ eÉà |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 23:59:00 -
[1408] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Earlier you were talking about how people would be taking theses down just for the sake of grief play. If that's the case, not having them drop anything is smart move. It ensures that taking these down is not a profitable venture, increasing the chances they will be left up or only taken down by someone with the intent to replace them. To what degree it will be effective is anyone's guess, but the fact that they cut that off in the thought process suggests that yes, they do play this game, to the point that they know exactly what you were thinking.
The thing is - how often do people really leave PI goods sitting in the customs office? W-space? Likely, because logistics out of the hole can be an issue some weeks. Lo-sec? Not as likely, unless the planet was full and it wasn't safe enough to haul. If POCOs are destroyable, people will not leave their stuff in the POCO for longer then necessary. Therefore, whether they drop stuff is not going to have much effect on destroying them to get at the stuff inside. The vast majority of the time, when you blow up a POCO there is going to be nothing there to "get". POCOs should be destroyable, and they should have the same drop mechanics as other destroyable containers. But POCOs also need the possibility of setting up defenses equivalent to a medium POS at a minimum. (I suspect the reason why CCP is not doing this is more to do with code-complexity rather then "should" or "should not".) You may well be right on the point of needing defenses for the POCO's, I'm not going to debate that as it wasn't the aspect I was replying to. The point of my post is to emphasize how, considering that most of the posts saying this won't work simply because of grief play in lowsec, it makes no sense to be surprised by or complain about CCP listening to then and taking steps to remove obvious incentives to destroy the POCO's. It makes even less sense to say that it's evidence of CCP not knowing their game. If anything it shows that they are making game mechanics bend to give this some possibility of working, which means they have foreseen at least one of the problems it can cause.
I complained because this is now inconsistent with virtually everything else in Eve and is a lame bandaid on a very bad idea. Making them drop stuff makes them even better in nulsec. Even if they don't drop stuff blowing them up just the heck of it will be the new low sec hobby of griefers when they get bored camping the gates.
Also the more I think about this in WH the less sense it makes. There is no community of folks living cooperatively in WHs. There is usually one dominante group and everyone else is there to steal the WH or kill you.
Issler |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 01:13:00 -
[1409] - Quote
Lolmer wrote:What kind of ******** idea is that? Why won't items drop after we destroy the "container"? That's not how EvE works! Even PLEX drops, and items in POS' drop, why would items in the POCO not drop?
They've said multiple times that they do not want people to benefit from shooting these. The only reason anyone would shoot these is to A.) Anchor their own or B.) try to get a fight out of whatever corp owns it.
Also to deny other corps/alliances PI assets, especially in 0.0 where it counts. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 01:15:00 -
[1410] - Quote
D'Kelle wrote:Sorry but err; I think you CCP guys are still a few cells short of a brain. When you have a Corp settled in a WH and they own the Customs offices who the heck do you think they are going to charge for their usage when the Corp members are making stuff for the Corp anyway. No self respecting WH invader is going to be interested in doing PI, he just wants to shoot ****.. and rightly so. donGÇÖt forget the Corp numbers in WH space and its hmmm, random accessibility, kind of makes defending them effectively very unlikely, not so in low or null sec where groups can be assembled and fly in on both sides to have some pew-pew fun. Setting up say a minimum of 6 Customs offices which bring in no revenue to their users, only added costs (Oh wait they might save a few measly K Isk on each transaction) to and from the planet for the outlay of close on 500 mil for the 6 gantries and the items to turn those six into customs offices. Interesting, do you run CCP's finances the same way, no? Thought so, like hell you would, you would be bankrupt in 6months or less. Typically you are applying low or null sec parameters to WH space which has its own rules, benefits, and risks, which means it should have slightly different parameters, as you have for the Empire ones. Not the same as Empire of course (that would be just as daft), but some which allow for the anomalies of WH life. I have tried to show what In my opinion is an error in your set up, by attempting to view it from both side, me I look forward to some pew- pew it may bring, but I donGÇÖt want to lose my fun by this method of seemingly downward logarithmic spiralling of WH targets which become too costly for corps to maintain.
you can set tax rates to 0% if you own the customs office, so you don't need to pay anyone. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
|
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 01:18:00 -
[1411] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:
I complained because this is now inconsistent with virtually everything else in Eve and is a lame bandaid on a very bad idea. Making them drop stuff makes them even better in nulsec. Even if they don't drop stuff blowing them up just the heck of it will be the new low sec hobby of griefers when they get bored camping the gates.
Also the more I think about this in WH the less sense it makes. There is no community of folks living cooperatively in WHs. There is usually one dominante group and everyone else is there to steal the WH or kill you.
Issler
It actually makes a lot of sense. You get increased capacity of the customs office for those off days where there's no high-sec exit, you can set tax rate to 0% so corp/alliance mates don't get charged, and you'll never get gangs of more than 20 people, unless they've come looking to take down your POS's too, in which case you have bigger things to worry about than a POCO.
Also, as CCP has already said, they don't want to make these grief ridden, so no drop makes sense. If there was a drop of PI stuff, you'd be seeing hundreds of these things blow up every week. I don't know about you, by my corp can't sustain putting 5 of these things up every month just so we can do PI. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
77
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 01:47:00 -
[1412] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote: I complained because this is now inconsistent with virtually everything else in Eve and is a lame bandaid on a very bad idea. Making them drop stuff makes them even better in nulsec. Even if they don't drop stuff blowing them up just the heck of it will be the new low sec hobby of griefers when they get bored camping the gates.
Also the more I think about this in WH the less sense it makes. There is no community of folks living cooperatively in WHs. There is usually one dominante group and everyone else is there to steal the WH or kill you.
Issler
IIRC Corp hangar contents of an Orca don't drop, so there is a precedent for special cases. Also the reasoning behind this has already been mentioned.
As far as WH's, after the initial investment you are set. Having them pop up as soon as a command center was laid down made less sense than this new system, and once it's up, the isolated nature of WH's means you are set. Yes, there is initial cost and logistics, but no maintenance of follow up and eventually it will pay for itself by removing import/export tariffs paid. (although the ROI may need looked at). |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 04:00:00 -
[1413] - Quote
As for the economics of destructible POCOs - it wouldn't be as big of an issue if there were multiple sizes to choose from.
Then you could have:
10M - POCO w/ half the PG/CPU of a small POS tower, 1000 m3, 100k ISK of fuel per day 20M - small tower sized POCO, 2000 m3, 400k ISK of fuel per day 40M - medium tower sized POCO, 3000 m3 packaged, 1M ISK of fuel/day 80M - large tower sized POCO, 4000 m3 packaged, 2M ISK of fuel/day
With the multiple sizes, you would then have the choice of "what do I want to risk" and "how much POS defense do I want to anchor". The current "single size" POCO proposal won't work - it will be too expensive for some situations, too easy to kill for others.
Give them small shield bubbles and make them so that if you have standings to use the POCO, you can enter the shields. Just like regular POS bubbles, you wouldn't be able to target anything inside the bubble. Those who use the POCO (such as haulers) would love the safety. Make it so that any standings change doesn't take place until downtime, to avoid someone ejecting people from the POCO bubble.
The base P1 and P2 tariffs would have to be increased about 5x to pay for a POCO erected at a P1 harvest planet. And P4 tariff is currently about 2x too high. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 05:51:00 -
[1414] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: Then you could have:
10M - POCO w/ half the PG/CPU of a small POS tower, 1000 m3, 100k ISK of fuel per day 20M - small tower sized POCO, 2000 m3, 400k ISK of fuel per day 40M - medium tower sized POCO, 3000 m3 packaged, 1M ISK of fuel/day 80M - large tower sized POCO, 4000 m3 packaged, 2M ISK of fuel/day
I do really like the idea of different sized PCO's. That certainly helps the economics for different planets with different resource levels and/or different sec status.
Some questions:
The 1,2,3,4k sizes... those are the sizes of the PCO packaged, the size of the cargo hold you need for hauling to the planet for anchoring? The PG/CPU is just for guns to be placed 5k outside the bubble?
I never tried to blow up something from inside the shield bubble in a POS. I assume that if I am in the bubble, I can attack freely? If that is true, why would I ever allow anyone else but corp/alliance mates access to the PCO? That would really hurt the economy as only those who own a PCO would be able to have a profitable PI operation on a planet. Taxes would then be a non-issue, as you wouldn't tax yourself.
If you do PI, would you be able to tell if the PCO gives you access without actually warping to the PCO? I assume that if I don't have access, your defense guns would shoot at me. Can you configure it so that you give someone access, but also configure the guns to shoot them?
The concern that I have with a corp locking out everyone not in their corp/alliance, particularly in low sec, but to a lesser extent in null, is that corps would own many more PCO's than they can or would effectively use for PI. If a planet currently has 10 random players doing PI on it, then this change takes effect, a corp puts up a PCO and locks out access to everyone else. Would that corp have 10 players doing PI on that planet? Probably not, probably far fewer. I just see a big impact on the economy and supply goes way down. I see the small individual, often noob, doing PI being locked out of doing PI for the most part and never venturing into low sec. I don't think that is a good thing for the game.
I disagree with the idea of a safe spot for haulers at the PCO. As one who does PI, that point is really my only point of vulnerability. I can't cloak and access the CO, and I can't cloak before moving away from the CO. Cloaky hauler properly fitted getting tackled at the gate? Damn unlikely, even for a decent sized gang. It really makes PI entirely safe, assuming that I have access to the PCO.
If I just put up a PCO, 2 minutes ago, do I get ejected from my own PCO because of standings that don't take effect until downtime? Or do standings configuration within the first 15 minutes or whatever of anchoring, does that take effect immediately regardless of when downtime is? If I am doing PI, do I get an email that a PCO on the planet that I am doing PI on just changed it's access and I'm no longer allowed after downtime? So a smart PCO owner would change the settings 10 minutes before downtime and effectively stop someone from having an profitable PI planet. That happened too many times to me and I would stop doing PI.
Does the size of the office give any limitations? Other than more defenses, what does a larger PCO do for me? Is there a limit to the taxes I can collect with a 10m PCO, and the limit goes up with larger PCOs? Who would ever attack a large PCO? I'm thinking a large PCO would have the defenses of a large POS. Not worth it given the income potential from a (any) planet I don't think.
Why would I bother to defend a 10m PCO? It's 10m, which is worth about a fitted t1 cruiser. The income? Bah, destroy mine and I'll put mine back up in a day or 2 after I destroy yours. The fear that I have with this is that a PCO is not worth defending, but gets destroyed so often you don't get a return on your investment. End result is everyone gives up on PCO's in low sec and there are no PCO's anywhere other than in high sec or in SOV/WH. I tend to think, that much of the PI materials that comes from low sec goes to small, high sec or industrial corps via the market. The majority of PI in null and WH, stays in null and WH space. Just see big ripples through the economy that are unintended.
Personally, I would have no interest in investing in something that could be destroyed that only nets me what, 10 or 20 mil ISK a week? I can invest 10 mil in station trading and double my money in a week, and thats without margin trading or the SP investment of PI. Fighting over, having to spend money to fuel the PCO, and all that crap, for 20 mil a week? That's for my corp, not me! I personally get nothing out of it, unless I am a 1 man corp. In which case, I can't defend any of my PCO's anyway.
What do you think would be a "target" payback time for a PCO of any size?
I don't like the idea of guns on a PCO, especially if you can lock anyone not in your corp out from the PCO. You and your corp essentially have a safe spot at the PCO. That goes against the idea of increasing player interaction. I don't think that anyone should be safe going to a PCO.
Like I said, I do like your idea of different sized PCOs. While some more questions need be answered, the other parts I think have problems.
I have not done the math for the economics. Too tired and too late. ;) |
Xylorn Hasher
Mean Corp Mean Coalition
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 07:02:00 -
[1415] - Quote
Problem with POCO will be their high building costs. I think their price will be near 200m after patch deployment and 150m later. Thats 600 - 1 Bil costs just to keep making Robotics for example (on 5 planets ). Who will risk so much ISK in lowsec?
In other hand if pirates will set them in their area of operation they will gain free early warning system of incoming fleets ( more Pvp ) and some kind of area control.
But... those POCOs have 10 mil shield!! Someone will must be very determined to take it down, not to mention how boring it will be.
|
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
317
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 08:47:00 -
[1416] - Quote
First thank you for your time reading this feed back CCP
My main concern like so many of my fellow PI ers is that we will be locked out from all the usefull planets in low sec by larger entities just because they can and they will , acces should be allowed for all, i think most will not be that concern about 100%tax or atleast enlarge the command centre hold and payload significant, if you not going to change the standing acces , at the moment it can barely hold a day worth of p1 production at best and most of us don't have the time to come and empty it twice a day
The debate about if POCO should be destructable or not is interesting and some good valid points beeen made for both sides , i just keep a open mind
I think the majority of us like to know what you will be changing from your original concept
I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
360
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 08:49:00 -
[1417] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:With destructible POCOs the incentive for large entities to attack drops significantly. Yes, they can grieve people, but it's tedious and provides NO payout WHATSOEVER. They don't drop anything upon destruction. It would be solely to grieve, and there is no reason anyone would do that on a large scale except to influence the market and control prices. Providing a payout to grieving these structures is a very VERY bad thing in my opinion!
I am amazed that somebody can write things like this such a short time after Goons have been causing havoc on high sec ice fields. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 10:29:00 -
[1418] - Quote
If you can unanchor them, you just need one and use it for multiple planets. A bit of a hassle, but doable for a small corp. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 12:28:00 -
[1419] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:If you can unanchor them, you just need one and use it for multiple planets. A bit of a hassle, but doable for a small corp.
Hmm, this could work if implemented correctly. If kept fully destructible, being able to unanchor and move these to another planet would be interesting. Of course, there would still have to be a limit of one per planet, as alliance that want to keep them there permanently would have to defend them. This would still allow small corps to do PI in low-sec or 0.0, as well as WHs and not have them invest a large amount of ISK in something that they either can't defend or won't see returns on.
However, this does kind of make the idea of collecting taxes on PI void. Perhaps there should be some sort of cost to unanchor these as to make them stay in one spot for at least a day or two. I can see this forcing alot of people to either move into low-sec to defend their PI stuff or creating a new breed of PI ninja. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 12:34:00 -
[1420] - Quote
Just a thought on PI after the POCO hits the game. It may not be CCP's intention to create a completely viable and fully passive form of income, but this is what I see for PI in the coming months if these roll out. With the increased price of PI materials, you could make about the same amount on PI as you would mining in high-sec. Granted, it's not much when compared to the amount of ISK a casual miner makes in 0.0 space (around 300-400 mil ISK per week before alliance taxes), but it could very well be about 10-15 mil ISK per hour (the same amount that a hulk with T2 strip miners can make w/ orca support). Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
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D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 13:14:00 -
[1421] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:D'Kelle wrote:Sorry but err; I think you CCP guys are still a few cells short of a brain. When you have a Corp settled in a WH and they own the Customs offices who the heck do you think they are going to charge for their usage when the Corp members are making stuff for the Corp anyway. No self respecting WH invader is going to be interested in doing PI, he just wants to shoot ****.. and rightly so. donGÇÖt forget the Corp numbers in WH space and its hmmm, random accessibility, kind of makes defending them effectively very unlikely, not so in low or null sec where groups can be assembled and fly in on both sides to have some pew-pew fun. Setting up say a minimum of 6 Customs offices which bring in no revenue to their users, only added costs (Oh wait they might save a few measly K Isk on each transaction) to and from the planet for the outlay of close on 500 mil for the 6 gantries and the items to turn those six into customs offices. Interesting, do you run CCP's finances the same way, no? Thought so, like hell you would, you would be bankrupt in 6months or less. Typically you are applying low or null sec parameters to WH space which has its own rules, benefits, and risks, which means it should have slightly different parameters, as you have for the Empire ones. Not the same as Empire of course (that would be just as daft), but some which allow for the anomalies of WH life. I have tried to show what In my opinion is an error in your set up, by attempting to view it from both side, me I look forward to some pew- pew it may bring, but I donGÇÖt want to lose my fun by this method of seemingly downward logarithmic spiralling of WH targets which become too costly for corps to maintain.
you can set tax rates to 0% if you own the customs office, so you don't need to pay anyone. You missed the point most WH's are occupied by one maybe two friendly corps well, friendly towards each other at least so as there are few if any prospect of passing trade telated to PI in a EB who the heck do you tax? Point no revenue.. Further more anyone who is into PI. Would know that the transaction fees are not crippling. Even a newbee can make fairly good ISK at it. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 13:25:00 -
[1422] - Quote
D'Kelle wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote:D'Kelle wrote:Sorry but err; I think you CCP guys are still a few cells short of a brain. When you have a Corp settled in a WH and they own the Customs offices who the heck do you think they are going to charge for their usage when the Corp members are making stuff for the Corp anyway. No self respecting WH invader is going to be interested in doing PI, he just wants to shoot ****.. and rightly so. donGÇÖt forget the Corp numbers in WH space and its hmmm, random accessibility, kind of makes defending them effectively very unlikely, not so in low or null sec where groups can be assembled and fly in on both sides to have some pew-pew fun. Setting up say a minimum of 6 Customs offices which bring in no revenue to their users, only added costs (Oh wait they might save a few measly K Isk on each transaction) to and from the planet for the outlay of close on 500 mil for the 6 gantries and the items to turn those six into customs offices. Interesting, do you run CCP's finances the same way, no? Thought so, like hell you would, you would be bankrupt in 6months or less. Typically you are applying low or null sec parameters to WH space which has its own rules, benefits, and risks, which means it should have slightly different parameters, as you have for the Empire ones. Not the same as Empire of course (that would be just as daft), but some which allow for the anomalies of WH life. I have tried to show what In my opinion is an error in your set up, by attempting to view it from both side, me I look forward to some pew- pew it may bring, but I donGÇÖt want to lose my fun by this method of seemingly downward logarithmic spiralling of WH targets which become too costly for corps to maintain.
you can set tax rates to 0% if you own the customs office, so you don't need to pay anyone. You missed the point most WH's are occupied by one maybe two friendly corps well, friendly towards each other at least so as there are few if any prospect of passing trade telated to PI in a EB who the heck do you tax? Point no revenue.. Further more anyone who is into PI. Would know that the transaction fees are not crippling. Even a newbee can make fairly good ISK at it.
Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.
What a load of crap the current concept is... if they do go through with this I hope they consider seeding empire with tons of these things at cheap cost initially to replace the tens of thousands of customs offices they'll be needlessly destroying.
Better yet... leave customs offices in place until someone plants a POCO. If they unanchor the POCO, the customs office reopens. That gives real incentive to destroy POCOs around planets you favor that an unfriendly corp set up on while reducing the number of people taking one up the rear with the initial implementation of these things. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 13:58:00 -
[1423] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.
What a load of crap the current concept is... Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.
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Gothiczwerg
Helios Alliance United Pod Service
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 14:10:00 -
[1424] - Quote
I like the idea,cause you have more than one opportunity to make Posfuel from PI.I think the big problem at the beginning whould be getting a BPC at the market.The price would be going higher for Pi Productions ,thats for sure,but why make the most players the big mistake,and try to sell these goods (Posfuel)? "Collect" is the word,your Corp would be very thankful in the future =)
Back to topic: If we cant get a BPC ,we would go back to Empire and build our Posfuel there.Why? Cause double taxes are better,as building POCOs,sure you dont get the amount of Fuel as in low sec or 0.0 but hey when you export 2000 mech parts what are you paying? 16K isk or let it be 20K ,now double the price,its cheaper than build the offices ,be feared to loose them ,or had a roaming gang in your system. Everyone got a few Alts,let them stay in Empire,to Produce Posfuel,without any Offices. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 14:25:00 -
[1425] - Quote
Gothiczwerg wrote:...I think the big problem at the beginning whould be getting a BPC at the market..... There are hundreds of people doing FW and Incurions who are saving up their LP so they can get a piece of the action. You will get your BPC for less than 30M. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 14:26:00 -
[1426] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.
What a load of crap the current concept is... Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.
Your response totally ignores the problems that logistics to and from WH causes. It is not practical for someone not living in a WH to do PI in a wormhole.
Besides, having anyone not in the corp in the wormhole is never desirable. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 15:01:00 -
[1427] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.
What a load of crap the current concept is... Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.
In my wormhole? What the hell you babbling on about? Any industrialists from high sec trying to do PI in my hole will be taking the lonely pod express back to high sec. It's not like I'd get a cut of their goods anyhow, or even enough to matter. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Tux88
Tux factory
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:01:00 -
[1428] - Quote
The pi was the only reason to go in low sec... now with private custom i cant setup pi in low because other corporations will destroy the custom..... result : all little player will only play in high and when they will be bored they will stop to play, you're on the good way continue ...... :( |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:06:00 -
[1429] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:El 1974 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.
What a load of crap the current concept is... Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining. In my wormhole? What the hell you babbling on about? Any industrialists from high sec trying to do PI in my hole will be taking the lonely pod express back to high sec. It's not like I'd get a cut of their goods anyhow, or even enough to matter.
So you're chosing to shut off a potential revenue stream, with the trade-off being greater security from killing all intruders. Where's the problem?
Wormhole dwellers were (rightly) complaining when customs offices first magically appeared in these far-off systems, now they're complaining because the situation is being corrected and they have to spend around 100 mil per planet, when they live in a sea of isk. There's just no pleasing some people. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:16:00 -
[1430] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote: So you're chosing to shut off a potential revenue stream, with the trade-off being greater security from killing all intruders. Where's the problem?
Wormhole dwellers were (rightly) complaining when customs offices first magically appeared in these far-off systems, now they're complaining because the situation is being corrected and they have to spend around 100 mil per planet, when they live in a sea of isk. There's just no pleasing some people.
No, seriously...
You sound like you actually think it's possible for someone in high sec to run PI in wormholes. Here's a hint... it's not. 16 to 24 hrs and the door closes. As such, anyone in the hole from empire is there to steal something, be it Sleeper sites or anoms, and dealt with accordingly.
So, I reiterate... Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:32:00 -
[1431] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:You sound like you actually think it's possible for someone in high sec to run PI in wormholes. Here's a hint... it's not.
I do it. Does that mean I've broken Eve? |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:56:00 -
[1432] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:You sound like you actually think it's possible for someone in high sec to run PI in wormholes. Here's a hint... it's not. 16 to 24 hrs and the door closes. The guys in the WH can scan the exit and let you in. It's already happening. Some people find it worth the trouble. |
Max Devious
EPSYLON FORCE NZAU Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:04:00 -
[1433] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.
What a load of crap the current concept is... Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.
You don't understand this. WH crews use the products produced in PI to run our POSs. Almost none of this stuff ever leaves the WH.
For a WH crew, there's only 2 reasons we ever see an industrial vessel that is not ours; either they are using one of our exits to get to Kspace or they are bringing in a POS to set up and try to evict us. Both of these ships are in a very dangerous situation.
Max. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:12:00 -
[1434] - Quote
Tux88 wrote:The pi was the only reason to go in low sec... now with private custom i cant setup pi in low because other corporations will destroy the custom..... result : all little player will only play in high and when they will be bored they will stop to play, you're on the good way continue ...... :(
Given your ability to see the future with absolute certainty, would you be kind enough to Evemail me the winning numbers for the lottery, please? |
admiral root
Red Galaxy NEM3SIS.
37
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:18:00 -
[1435] - Quote
Max Devious wrote:You don't understand this. WH crews use the products produced in PI to run our POSs. Almost none of this stuff ever leaves the WH.
For a WH crew, there's only 2 reasons we ever see an industrial vessel that is not ours; either they are using one of our exits to get to Kspace or they are bringing in a POS to set up and try to evict us. Both of these ships are in a very dangerous situation.
Max.
Diplomacy is in no way a violation of the EULA. If there are empire carebears willing to deal with the logistical headache of getting the stuff out, why not work with them? You could even get them to haul your fuel in, with you keeping the tax at a sensible rate in return. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:33:00 -
[1436] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Max Devious wrote:You don't understand this. WH crews use the products produced in PI to run our POSs. Almost none of this stuff ever leaves the WH.
For a WH crew, there's only 2 reasons we ever see an industrial vessel that is not ours; either they are using one of our exits to get to Kspace or they are bringing in a POS to set up and try to evict us. Both of these ships are in a very dangerous situation.
Max. Diplomacy is in no way a violation of the EULA. If there are empire carebears willing to deal with the logistical headache of getting the stuff out, why not work with them? You could even get them to haul your fuel in, with you keeping the tax at a sensible rate in return.
Because, qutie simply enough, deliberately opening holes into empire is nothing more an open invitation to having your hole invaded. Granted, it's probably possible someone actually does that... we tend to consider them future targets however and not someone we'd consider smart enough to occupy wormholes for any significant period of time. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy NEM3SIS.
37
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:42:00 -
[1437] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Because, qutie simply enough, deliberately opening holes into empire is nothing more an open invitation to having your hole invaded. Granted, it's probably possible someone actually does that... we tend to consider them future targets however and not someone we'd consider smart enough to occupy wormholes for any significant period of time.
So you're making a smart choice (IMO) regarding peasants who dare to intrude in your system and as a consequence the new customs offices aren't giving you a benefit. Working as intended? |
Max Devious
EPSYLON FORCE NZAU Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:02:00 -
[1438] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Because, qutie simply enough, deliberately opening holes into empire is nothing more an open invitation to having your hole invaded. Granted, it's probably possible someone actually does that... we tend to consider them future targets however and not someone we'd consider smart enough to occupy wormholes for any significant period of time. So you're making a smart choice (IMO) regarding peasants who dare to intrude in your system and as a consequence the new customs offices aren't giving you a benefit. Working as intended?
If their intention is to give us a huge pain in the behind with absolutely no benefit and possibly driving some of us out of Wspace temporarily then it is working perfectly.
Max. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:06:00 -
[1439] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:(quoting response 1390 by Creat)
I don't disagree at all that it is a valid tactic. [...] Kill off defending players 1 by 1? You're kidding right? If the defender is so stupid to warp to 0 to see if someone is attacking a PCO, they deserve to lose it. Have a tactical 150+ km away from the POCO and you can see if a attack is occurring in your battleship and warp off before you can be tackled.
Why would you send ships out worth more than the PCO to begin with? The only thing you are defending is the income, and the value (80 mil ISK) of the PCO. You don't lose SOV, you don't loose assets held within the PCO, you don't get anchored structures around the PCO. Yeah, I would go for a fight for fights sake, but you don't need a PCO to get into a fleet fight.
You misunderstood me completely there. I was saying that if the ATTACKERS (!!!) split up to attack multiple POCOs, putting one attacker at each non-primary target just for the mail(s) to cover the primary attack (as you suggested), then those lone attackers could be easily picked off one by one if the defenders do manage to get even a small defense fleet together. Nobody is gonna defend anything unless it is upon reinforcement exit, there are no defenders in your case!
Also throughout your replies you constantly seem to think that the increased interaction is supposed to occur at this point in the first place. It isn't - as I've already stated as well. That is what reinforcement is for, to have a time and a place to meet and have "interaction"
If someone decides to shoot some POCOs just to generate some mails, let him. Who cares? Unless the POCO is reinforced nobody is gonna move. You can try to drop by if you happen to be in the vicinity, but just wait for him to reinforce it, and either fight him upon reinforcement exit, or rep up the shields enough so that reinforcement resets. Who cares about a couple of (or couple of dozen) mails?
Scrapyard Bob wrote:As for the economics of destructible POCOs - it wouldn't be as big of an issue if there were multiple sizes to choose from.
Then you could have:
10M - POCO w/ half the PG/CPU of a small POS tower, 1000 m3, 100k ISK of fuel per day 20M - small tower sized POCO, 2000 m3, 400k ISK of fuel per day 40M - medium tower sized POCO, 3000 m3 packaged, 1M ISK of fuel/day 80M - large tower sized POCO, 4000 m3 packaged, 2M ISK of fuel/day
With the multiple sizes, you would then have the choice of "what do I want to risk" and "how much POS defense do I want to anchor". The current "single size" POCO proposal won't work - it will be too expensive for some situations, too easy to kill for others.
Give them small shield bubbles and make them so that if you have standings to use the POCO, you can enter the shields. Just like regular POS bubbles, you wouldn't be able to target anything inside the bubble. Those who use the POCO (such as haulers) would love the safety. Make it so that any standings change doesn't take place until downtime, to avoid someone ejecting people from the POCO bubble.
The base P1 and P2 tariffs would have to be increased about 5x to pay for a POCO erected at a P1 harvest planet. And P4 tariff is currently about 2x too high.
Have you not been reading anything in this thread? A POCO may be - under the best of circumstances - creating about 4-5 mil of revenue a week (with current numbers). It's one of the big problems that the return of investment is taking 6 months at least. At least with these number you could never make back your investment even with heavy PI on the planet, you'll actually lose money doing it!
Also it couldn't have a normal POS-Shield, which has also been discussed here, since you could either fly inside and just shoot the thing directly, or people don't have access so they can't do PI and the thing will lose even more money! If they act like POS otherwise (safety for hauler and stuff) that goes directly against having more interaction and the fact that CCP decided to display them on the overview (yes, this is supposed to stay this way, one of the few confirmed things so far).
Jowen Datloran wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:With destructible POCOs the incentive for large entities to attack drops significantly. Yes, they can grieve people, but it's tedious and provides NO payout WHATSOEVER. They don't drop anything upon destruction. It would be solely to grieve, and there is no reason anyone would do that on a large scale except to influence the market and control prices. Providing a payout to grieving these structures is a very VERY bad thing in my opinion!
I am amazed that somebody can write things like this such a short time after Goons have been causing havoc on high sec ice fields. They have a very specific reason to do so, even though they may love the tears that creates too: They get ransoms from people to not do it again, and they want to control the market for ice products. If you have a look at the latest dev-blog this has clearly worked (at least to some degree): http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2972
In general, there is currently an imbalance, or rather a dilemma: You can't make them much cheaper, or they have no value and nobody ever defends them, failing to incite the wanted interaction. Currently they are too expensive to ever make a reasonable return on the investment. You also can't raise taxes too much since that would cause POS prices to increase even further than they supposedly already will. So what exactly can be done to make them work? Before someone mentions indestructible POCOs: that doesn't mean you get a return on your investment, it just means that if someone does take it you can theoretically take it back, but since it'll be (or should be) small industrial corps with little firepower putting these up they can hardly take it back from either an alliance or even "just" a local pirate corp, can they? |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:28:00 -
[1440] - Quote
Yes, I have been reading the thread - and I've continuously said that it's the planets used as P1 harvest planets (or P0->P2) which are going to have trouble paying for their POCOs because the baseline tariff is currently about 5x too low. Fix the tariffs on P1/P2 and suddenly the math starts to look a lot better, especially if you can use a smaller sized POCO and reduce your fuel needs on planets that are only used as P1/P2 harvest planets.
P3/P4 factory planets will easily pay for a POCO, but nobody is going to put one of those up in lo-sec without defenses.
Back to the numbers: Specifically factory planets.
P2 factory planet, consumes about 80 x 24 x 20 AIFs (38400) per day of P1 @ 0.38 ISK/u import under todays tariff rate and exports 5 x 24 x 20 AIFs (2400) per day of P2 @ 9.00 ISK/u. So that's 14592 ISK/day for P1 import fees and 21600 ISK/day for P2.
As said repeatedly, that number is about 5x lower then the other tier's effective tax rates.
Multiply those numbers by 5x and a P2 factory planet now produces 180,960 ISK/day @ 5% tariff. Be greedy and set a 50% tariff and that's now 1.8M/day in fees for every P2 factory planet running.
P3 factories - same setup w/ 20 AIFs - 20 x 24 x 20 AIFs (9600) or 30 x 24 x 20 AIFs (14400) of P2 inputs with an import tax of 4.50 ISK/u, output is 3 x 24 x 20 (1440) at 600 ISK/u. Giving a total tariff (5%) fee of 928,880 ISK/day. Be greedy there and set the tariff to 50% and you make 9M ISK/day for a P3 factory colony in fees.
Get a few P2/P3 factory colonies on a single world and you easily pay for a 80-100M POCO plus POS defenses plus the POS fuel costs needed to fuel a large POCO.
TL;DR (again) - P1/P2 proposed tariffs are too cheap and it's the P1 planets where you're going to have trouble paying enough to put up anything more then a small POCO. |
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:32:00 -
[1441] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote: Also it couldn't have a normal POS-Shield, which has also been discussed here, since you could either fly inside and just shoot the thing directly, or people don't have access so they can't do PI and the thing will lose even more money!
And when was the last time that you flew inside a POS shield bubble and tried to target something? Hint - if you're inside the shield, you can't target anything at all. (Smartbomb use against the POCO might be an issue...)
Again - if you have standings with the POCO, you can enter the shield - if you don't, then you can't enter the POCO shield and you wouldn't be able to use the POCO anyway. The permeability of the shield would have to be tied to POCO rules.
Casual PI bears will love a POCO with shields, because it gives them safety during the most vulnerable time - loading/unloading cargo from the POCO. Don't like it? Get standings to use the POCO, fly inside and bump them out of the shields, or setup a bubble outside (in null/w-space). Or catch them on the gates as they try to get out. It turns the customs offices in lo-sec from being death traps into something with a bit more safety. And you could charge a higher tax for the safety of being within the shield when picking up product. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:36:00 -
[1442] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:You misunderstood me completely there. I was saying that if the ATTACKERS (!!!) split up to attack multiple POCOs, putting one attacker at each non-primary target just for the mail(s) to cover the primary attack (as you suggested), then those lone attackers could be easily picked off one by one if the defenders do manage to get even a small defense fleet together. Nobody is gonna defend anything unless it is upon reinforcement exit, there are no defenders in your case! Also throughout your replies you constantly seem to think that the increased interaction is supposed to occur at this point in the first place. It isn't - as I've already stated as well. That is what reinforcement is for, to have a time and a place to meet and have "interaction" If someone decides to shoot some POCOs just to generate some mails, let him. Who cares? Unless the POCO is reinforced nobody is gonna move. You can try to drop by if you happen to be in the vicinity, but just wait for him to reinforce it, and either fight him upon reinforcement exit, or rep up the shields enough so that reinforcement resets. Who cares about a couple of (or couple of dozen) mails?
Ahh, I understand better now. There is no reason for a lone player to attack a PCO and stick around awaiting a response from defenders. The purpose of him was to create confusion and generate uncertainty.
As we have both have stated, the current plan fails because there is not enough income or value in PCO's to make many people struggle to keep them alive after installing them. Attackers have incentive to attack them simply for kill mails and lols, but there is no financial incentive to do so.
You mention later in your response, income is about 5 mil a week and it would take 4 months to recover investment from a 80m PCO. No one would risk even a T1 BC to keep the PCO operational. Having 1 destroyed would extend payback another 2 months (depending on the BC and fit of course).
Scrapyard Bob had a good idea (believe he was the first to propose it) about making different sized PCO's. The problem is the economics fail on a basic level, and without changing the economy as a whole drastically, I don't see a way to make this idea (player owned CO's) work.
The concept is great, but the jury rig to make it work isn't working. Maybe we need someone with Jury rigging VI? |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:53:00 -
[1443] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:You misunderstood me completely there. I was saying that if the ATTACKERS (!!!) split up to attack multiple POCOs, putting one attacker at each non-primary target just for the mail(s) to cover the primary attack (as you suggested), then those lone attackers could be easily picked off one by one if the defenders do manage to get even a small defense fleet together. Nobody is gonna defend anything unless it is upon reinforcement exit, there are no defenders in your case! Also throughout your replies you constantly seem to think that the increased interaction is supposed to occur at this point in the first place. It isn't - as I've already stated as well. That is what reinforcement is for, to have a time and a place to meet and have "interaction" If someone decides to shoot some POCOs just to generate some mails, let him. Who cares? Unless the POCO is reinforced nobody is gonna move. You can try to drop by if you happen to be in the vicinity, but just wait for him to reinforce it, and either fight him upon reinforcement exit, or rep up the shields enough so that reinforcement resets. Who cares about a couple of (or couple of dozen) mails? Ahh, I understand better now. There is no reason for a lone player to attack a PCO and stick around awaiting a response from defenders. The purpose of him was to create confusion and generate uncertainty.
We put in a change today so that mails wont be generated unless you do at least some significant amount of damage. A lone rifter doing a drive by won't trigger it, because that would be annoying. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:15:00 -
[1444] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:We put in a change today so that mails wont be generated unless you do at least some significant amount of damage. A lone rifter doing a drive by won't trigger it, because that would be annoying.
Any changes as far as the initial supply? Simply removing the customs offices and waiting for the market to catch up in order to do effective PI again is crippling to say the least.
I like the idea of leaving the customs offices in place and having these supercede them if someone plants one, and the customs office coming back online if one's destroyed. It adds the flavor of people deciding to remove the ones that a hostile corp put up, even if they can't manage to put one up themselves. This at least allows some safeguards, some means for people to be able to fight for the right to do their own PI without corporate interference. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:17:00 -
[1445] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:You misunderstood me completely there. I was saying that if the ATTACKERS (!!!) split up to attack multiple POCOs, putting one attacker at each non-primary target just for the mail(s) to cover the primary attack (as you suggested), then those lone attackers could be easily picked off one by one if the defenders do manage to get even a small defense fleet together. Nobody is gonna defend anything unless it is upon reinforcement exit, there are no defenders in your case! Also throughout your replies you constantly seem to think that the increased interaction is supposed to occur at this point in the first place. It isn't - as I've already stated as well. That is what reinforcement is for, to have a time and a place to meet and have "interaction" If someone decides to shoot some POCOs just to generate some mails, let him. Who cares? Unless the POCO is reinforced nobody is gonna move. You can try to drop by if you happen to be in the vicinity, but just wait for him to reinforce it, and either fight him upon reinforcement exit, or rep up the shields enough so that reinforcement resets. Who cares about a couple of (or couple of dozen) mails? Ahh, I understand better now. There is no reason for a lone player to attack a PCO and stick around awaiting a response from defenders. The purpose of him was to create confusion and generate uncertainty. We put in a change today so that mails wont be generated unless you do at least some significant amount of damage. A lone rifter doing a drive by won't trigger it, because that would be annoying.
When should we be hearing from yourself or CCP Phantom (or even CCP Omen) regarding other adjustments that have been made/ will be made? |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:23:00 -
[1446] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:You misunderstood me completely there. I was saying that if the ATTACKERS (!!!) split up to attack multiple POCOs, putting one attacker at each non-primary target just for the mail(s) to cover the primary attack (as you suggested), then those lone attackers could be easily picked off one by one if the defenders do manage to get even a small defense fleet together. Nobody is gonna defend anything unless it is upon reinforcement exit, there are no defenders in your case! Also throughout your replies you constantly seem to think that the increased interaction is supposed to occur at this point in the first place. It isn't - as I've already stated as well. That is what reinforcement is for, to have a time and a place to meet and have "interaction" If someone decides to shoot some POCOs just to generate some mails, let him. Who cares? Unless the POCO is reinforced nobody is gonna move. You can try to drop by if you happen to be in the vicinity, but just wait for him to reinforce it, and either fight him upon reinforcement exit, or rep up the shields enough so that reinforcement resets. Who cares about a couple of (or couple of dozen) mails? Ahh, I understand better now. There is no reason for a lone player to attack a PCO and stick around awaiting a response from defenders. The purpose of him was to create confusion and generate uncertainty. We put in a change today so that mails wont be generated unless you do at least some significant amount of damage. A lone rifter doing a drive by won't trigger it, because that would be annoying. When should we be hearing from yourself or CCP Phantom (or even CCP Omen) regarding other adjustments that have been made/ will be made?
I believe Omen is working on another dev blog to explain some more changes and reiterate some of the answers we have given in this thread. No ETA on that just yet, as it depends on making sure we can actually get it all done first. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
Henriette Malia Alette
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:35:00 -
[1447] - Quote
CCP - why do u keep screwing over the Small Corp that needs the PI for POS fuelling (f.ex) ?
Ever since u removed the click feast, AND lowered the output - High Sec PI wont generate enough (for POS fuel - fex) using 1 character with 6 CCs in high sec. The output even using 22 hour turns simply wont cut it..
So - you need to venture to low sec, but.. i guess thats not good enough punishment - to having to lurk around in a BR, waiting for the right moment to make the custom office run and get away before ganked - bcause now we also need to build our own little custom offices, just to see them get destroyed by anyone wandering bout beeing bored...
Honestly.. possible 25-?? % of youre player base are high sec bears, probably responsible for 70% of the industrial sector - yet we constantly are the one's getting hit in the face... u reward scamming, griefing, anything that goes towards destroying other people's playing experience, but never those that does the heavy lifting.. which actually play EVE for the PVE side... we getting a good solid **** on... and you are wondering why people are leaving, and new people arent joining?
Why dont you just turn all of EVE into Null and be done with it ? - surely you dont need the high sec bears accounts to keep eve alive and kicking.. im sure all the PVPplayers gladly pay double to make up for the industrials that left.. we nothing then a nuisence anyway... and besides - everyone will tell u EVE is all about PVP - right?
As far as im concerned.. u can keep the LCOs in null, and WHs and let the rest of us have our custom offices in peace... |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:44:00 -
[1448] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Yes, I have been reading the thread - and I've continuously said that it's the planets used as P1 harvest planets (or P0->P2) which are going to have trouble paying for their POCOs because the baseline tariff is currently about 5x too low. Fix the tariffs on P1/P2 and suddenly the math starts to look a lot better, especially if you can use a smaller sized POCO and reduce your fuel needs on planets that are only used as P1/P2 harvest planets.
P3/P4 factory planets will easily pay for a POCO, but nobody is going to put one of those up in lo-sec without defenses.
Back to the numbers: Specifically factory planets.
P2 factory planet, consumes about 80 x 24 x 20 AIFs (38400) per day of P1 @ 0.38 ISK/u import under todays tariff rate and exports 5 x 24 x 20 AIFs (2400) per day of P2 @ 9.00 ISK/u. So that's 14592 ISK/day for P1 import fees and 21600 ISK/day for P2.
As said repeatedly, that number is about 5x lower then the other tier's effective tax rates.
Multiply those numbers by 5x and a P2 factory planet now produces 180,960 ISK/day @ 5% tariff. Be greedy and set a 50% tariff and that's now 1.8M/day in fees for every P2 factory planet running.
P3 factories - same setup w/ 20 AIFs - 20 x 24 x 20 AIFs (9600) or 30 x 24 x 20 AIFs (14400) of P2 inputs with an import tax of 4.50 ISK/u, output is 3 x 24 x 20 (1440) at 600 ISK/u. Giving a total tariff (5%) fee of 928,880 ISK/day. Be greedy there and set the tariff to 50% and you make 9M ISK/day for a P3 factory colony in fees.
Get a few P2/P3 factory colonies on a single world and you easily pay for a 80-100M POCO plus POS defenses plus the POS fuel costs needed to fuel a large POCO.
TL;DR (again) - P1/P2 proposed tariffs are too cheap and it's the P1 planets where you're going to have trouble paying enough to put up anything more then a small POCO.
Why would anyone import anything to a 50% tax planet? You would haul it to high sec and pay 10% to import, 10% to export for a total of 20% (ignoring differences in product levels).
To the best of my knowledge, the most efficient way to do PI is extract P0 and make it P1 materials. Haul those P1 products to a manufacturing only planet and make any P2-P4 products you choose. The bottleneck in PI is extraction of P0 goods not manufacturing them to higher product levels.
So if you are going to use import taxes and export taxes of P2-P4 goods to base your economic model on, you need to use a competitive tax rate with high sec. Otherwise you will get false numbers.
If you need more production planets, make an alt, and with a week of training you have an alt with command centers 4, a decent capacity hauler and capable of manufacturing on 3 planets.
One thing that has not been suggested yet, is that we raise the tax rate in high sec to a very high rate. Bob's thoughts kinda gave me this idea. That would certainly help push people to low sec where PCO owners might be cheaper than high sec and it would ease economically justifying the PCO. The question is: can non high sec PCO's tax at a rate competitive with high sec CO's and not dramatically change the economy? Some numbers would have to be run to see if this would make sense. On the surface, it does make sense, unless I am not seeing something. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:50:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote: One thing that has not been suggested yet, is that we raise the tax rate in high sec to a very high rate. Bob's thoughts kinda gave me this idea. That would certainly help push people to low sec ...
What? You actually believe you can force people into areas they don't want to be? Don't be ridiculous. People that don't want to go into low sec won't, regardless of the taxes. They'll simply either pay the taxes or drop PI instead. It's basic human nature... you're not going to force them. Instead you'll have a more disgruntled base that's even more likely to unsub.
Push them to low sec. Push them to null. Sheesh, what the hell are people thinking? All pushing will do is push them away.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:01:00 -
[1450] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:You mention later in your response, income is about 5 mil a week and it would take 4 months to recover investment from a 80m PCO. No one would risk even a T1 BC to keep the PCO operational. Having 1 destroyed would extend payback another 2 months (depending on the BC and fit of course).
It's the central problem with the POCO concept. Any systems near hi-sec will suffer from a few issues:
- Hi-sec COs will only charge a 10% tariff. - POCOs will have to charge much more then 10% in order to break even in under a month. - This drives all P2/P3/P4 production to hi-sec POCOs. - All that is left is tariffs on P1 harvest planets, which is not enough to pay for a POCO fast enough. - Harvest planets can't support more then half a dozen colonies before they get over-populated and start generating poor returns from the ECUs.
The reason that I favor at least some sort of fuel cost is:
- If they are given shields and the abilities to anchor defenses, then they need to have fuel costs commiserate with a POS tower of the equivalent size. Otherwise they get used as cheap-POS towers for defense. - That fuel cost could be made lower if the POCO cannot anchor things like SMAs, assembly arrays, corp hangars. - A monthly fuel bill encourages owners to become landlords and not just use them as cheap planet denial. - POCOs not maintained will go fallow and be easily destroyed. - Monthly fuel consumption helps PI products stay in demand.
The issue, of course, is that unless tariffs are raised for P1/P2 and the tariff rate in hi-sec is made much higher then the 10% proposed level, POCOs won't be affordable as an income source, even before some sort of fuel cost is added.
Hi-sec tariff base of 60-70%, while it sounds harsh, would make the POCOs a more attractive proposition. It would mostly impact P3/P4 producers who pay the bulk of the fees. They would have to raise their prices by 30-50% in order to pay for the higher hi-sec tariff rate. But it would leave room for POCOs to compete on tariff level. It would encourage producers to make friends in a lo-sec pocket or move into a w-hole or null-sec in order to avoid the higher tariffs in hi-sec.
Maybe tariffs in hi-sec should be based loosely on the security status of the system. Where 1.0 systems might charge 75% with 0.5 systems charging only 50%. (Jita is 0.9, Amarr is 1.0, Dodixie is 0.9, but there are systems nearby with lower security status.)
The regen rate of PI worlds will have to be increased so that you can have up to 20-30 different PI colonies on the worlds before they run into trouble (instead of running into trouble at 6-12 colonies).
|
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:03:00 -
[1451] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:You misunderstood me completely there. I was saying that if the ATTACKERS (!!!) split up to attack multiple POCOs, putting one attacker at each non-primary target just for the mail(s) to cover the primary attack (as you suggested), then those lone attackers could be easily picked off one by one if the defenders do manage to get even a small defense fleet together. Nobody is gonna defend anything unless it is upon reinforcement exit, there are no defenders in your case! Also throughout your replies you constantly seem to think that the increased interaction is supposed to occur at this point in the first place. It isn't - as I've already stated as well. That is what reinforcement is for, to have a time and a place to meet and have "interaction" If someone decides to shoot some POCOs just to generate some mails, let him. Who cares? Unless the POCO is reinforced nobody is gonna move. You can try to drop by if you happen to be in the vicinity, but just wait for him to reinforce it, and either fight him upon reinforcement exit, or rep up the shields enough so that reinforcement resets. Who cares about a couple of (or couple of dozen) mails? Ahh, I understand better now. There is no reason for a lone player to attack a PCO and stick around awaiting a response from defenders. The purpose of him was to create confusion and generate uncertainty. We put in a change today so that mails wont be generated unless you do at least some significant amount of damage. A lone rifter doing a drive by won't trigger it, because that would be annoying. When should we be hearing from yourself or CCP Phantom (or even CCP Omen) regarding other adjustments that have been made/ will be made? I believe Omen is working on another dev blog to explain some more changes and reiterate some of the answers we have given in this thread. No ETA on that just yet, as it depends on making sure we can actually get it all done first.
Great! I'm looking forward to it... 'no where to go but up' as they say...
And just for the sake of getting your post count up:
CCP Nullarbor: How long did it take to code the feature (as of PCO announcement last week)?
[Curious how many difficulties might be associated with additional coding that is being requested] |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:11:00 -
[1452] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote: One thing that has not been suggested yet, is that we raise the tax rate in high sec to a very high rate. Bob's thoughts kinda gave me this idea. That would certainly help push people to low sec ...
What? You actually believe you can force people into areas they don't want to be? Don't be ridiculous. People that don't want to go into low sec won't, regardless of the taxes. They'll simply either pay the taxes or drop PI instead. It's basic human nature... you're not going to force them. Instead you'll have a more disgruntled base that's even more likely to unsub. Push them to low sec. Push them to null. Sheesh, what the hell are people thinking? All pushing will do is push them away.
There is no reason people couldnt stay in high sec and produce, just like they do now. Low sec could be more profitable, like it is now.
If the new taxes cause the price of robotics to go up to the current 75k or so (up from the 50-60k in the near past) I don't think that is a huge issue and the economy will adjust to it. If the price were 500k for robotics, thats not so easy to adjust to. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:24:00 -
[1453] - Quote
Market impact estimates:
Based on historical prices, here's is about what we currently pay under the current tariff system for exporting products via a customs office (supposedly equivalent to the "5%" tariff rate under the new system).
- Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate). - P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate - P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate - P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate - P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate
Let's assume that hi-sec COs now charge 75% (15x increase in tariff over today). Remember that since tariffs are fixed on a per-unit basis, as the results go up in market value that you pay a smaller percentage in import/export fees.
P0 - goes from 5-10% to 75% to 150% paid as a percentage of value. Not a huge deal, because hardly anyone exports P0 anyway. But the prices on raw P0 would have to go up a fair amount. Probably into the 3-5 ISK/u range instead of 1-2 ISK/u. Basically, exporting P0 to make into P1 on another world would become even more of a losing proposition then it is now.
P1 - goes from 0.15-0.25% to 2.25% to 3.75% as a percentage of market value. Not big deal, but definitely well under what the other tiers are paying. So the prices for P1 would not go up much at all, even if tariffs for this tier went up another 5x (into the 11.25-18.75% range).
P2 - goes from 0.22-0.36% to 3.30% to 5.40% as a percentage of market value. Again, not a big change. If those tariffs were increased by 4x to bring them in line with the other tiers, you'd be looking at 13.2% to 21.6% in fees as a percentage of the current market value. So the P2s would have to go up about 30-40% to cover the tariffs and the higher input costs from the previous tier. Those who are willing to deal with POCOs that have a lower tariff rate would make more profit.
P3 - Would get hit a bit harder, 1.3-2.4% -> 19.5% to 36%, so P3 would have to go up a good 50-60% in market price to deal with a hi-sec tariff. Naturally, this makes some other things more expensive, but it's not the end of the world. Many P3s were already rising in cost anyway over the past few months. More of a nuisance and higher prices are not always enjoyable. But any POCO owner in lo/null who can convince others to setup a P3/P4 factory planet on their world will be making ISK hand over fist.
P4 - Gets hit very hard, because their fees in relation to the market value of the output was already high at 4.5-8.3%. A 15x increase there will result in P4 that goes up by about 3x in cost. Since P4 tariffs were already high, they should be cut in half which would result in only a 7.5x increase. That would put the tariff at around 33.75% to 62.25% of historical market value. Still high, but P4s would have to only increase their prices by about 80-100% over historical norms.
Some side-effects:
- Sov structures will become about 2x more expensive - The monthly POS fuel bill will go up about 20-30% (probably 400/mo for a large tower) - Going from P1 -> P4 on a single planet or from P2 -> P4 on a single planet would save a lot in fees.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:29:00 -
[1454] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote: One thing that has not been suggested yet, is that we raise the tax rate in high sec to a very high rate. Bob's thoughts kinda gave me this idea. That would certainly help push people to low sec ...
What? You actually believe you can force people into areas they don't want to be? Don't be ridiculous. People that don't want to go into low sec won't, regardless of the taxes. They'll simply either pay the taxes or drop PI instead. It's basic human nature... you're not going to force them. Instead you'll have a more disgruntled base that's even more likely to unsub. Push them to low sec. Push them to null. Sheesh, what the hell are people thinking? All pushing will do is push them away. There is no reason people couldnt stay in high sec and produce, just like they do now. Low sec could be more profitable, like it is now. If the new taxes cause the price of robotics to go up to the current 75k or so (up from the 50-60k in the near past) I don't think that is a huge issue and the economy will adjust to it. If the price were 500k for robotics, thats not so easy to adjust to.
Robotics could never sustain a price of 500k ISK per unit ... that bubble would collapse really quickly.
But it would make P4 commodities like OMA's shoot up to 10x its current price ... yummy |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:55:00 -
[1455] - Quote
Do any of you play the game?
Share resources. Let others use faciltys for profit? HAHAHAHAHA
They spent years say a cold harsh universe encourageing backstabbing griefing and etc.... And they want to introduce something that means you have to trust some unknown stranger...
I mean its not like their are spies, corp thieves, gank alts, and LOL Butholes in the game now is there?..
Either that or the really stupid people are posting on this thread...
Seriously do you people even read the Bullcrap your posting? |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:21:00 -
[1456] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:What? You actually believe you can force people into areas they don't want to be? Don't be ridiculous. People that don't want to go into low sec won't, regardless of the taxes. They'll simply either pay the taxes or drop PI instead.
Good. The quicker you stop producing, the quicker I start making increased profit.
bilingi wrote:Share resources. Let others use faciltys for profit? HAHAHAHAHA I mean its not like their are spies, corp thieves, gank alts, and LOL Butholes in the game now is there?..
Ah, so there's only one type of person that plays Eve? In that case, how do you explain all the whiny carebears complaining about getting ganked or the price of isotopes? If it's in my corp / alliance's interest to make customs stations available to al then I'm all for it.
Scrapyard Bob wrote: - Hi-sec COs will only charge a 10% tariff. - POCOs will have to charge much more then 10% in order to break even in under a month. - This drives all P2/P3/P4 production to hi-sec POCOs. - All that is left is tariffs on P1 harvest planets, which is not enough to pay for a POCO fast enough. - Harvest planets can't support more then half a dozen colonies before they get over-populated and start generating poor returns from the ECUs.
Why is there so much emphasis from many people in this thread on the speed of payback? I recently trained all the skills for a cap ship to IV. If I go back and train them all from IV to V I'm looking at nearly a year, which is fine because this isn't modern warfail 3 with instant gratification included as a feature. Sure, the office may get taken out, but unless some very bored muppets drop a bunch of caps on it, corps should be able to defend their property.
Production being driven to highsec isn't an issue either. There's always someone to fill any gap in demand and reap any increased profits. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:33:00 -
[1457] - Quote
The reason people focus on the payback period is because, as proposed so far by the CCP devs, these things will have not a lot of HP and zero defenses. Which means that, just like a small POS tower in lo-sec, they're likely to have the lifespan of a gnat.
If your POCO costs you 80M ISK, gets blown up every month, and you only make 10M ISK in taxes each month... how long before you stop replacing it?
Pessimistic view is that these will last about 2 weeks before dying, a more optimistic view is 2-4 months. But if they are given defenses on the scale of a large POS tower, then they'll survive for about as long as an existing large POS tower does in hi-sec (which can be a rather long time). Maybe slightly less, because there are fewer planets then moons so more competition for spots. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:40:00 -
[1458] - Quote
Well according to you and your whiney carebare remark only PvPers play or should so thanks for proving me right.
As for a profit. Profit from what? So you want it allaince only to support the RMT allainces we already have?... That explains why you like the IDea you get your isk the easy way.
ANd name me one allaince thats going to encourage nuetrals t use thier station,,, You cant with out lieing. The only thing they approve is thier rat bots. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 22:55:00 -
[1459] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:
Why is there so much emphasis from many people in this thread on the speed of payback? I recently trained all the skills for a cap ship to IV. If I go back and train them all from IV to V I'm looking at nearly a year, which is fine because this isn't modern warfail 3 with instant gratification included as a feature. Sure, the office may get taken out, but unless some very bored muppets drop a bunch of caps on it, corps should be able to defend their property.
Production being driven to highsec isn't an issue either. There's always someone to fill any gap in demand and reap any increased profits.
It goes back to the incentive to put up a PCO at all vs investing the ISK in some other way. I certainly don't want instant gratification with a PCO either.
With so much emphasis on ISK per hour and return on investment over everything in Eve, it is certainly a concern when contemplating a change or addition of a ISK making method.
If the average PCO needs 3 months to get paid back, but the average PCO lasts 1 month before getting blown up, how long before PCO's stop getting put up?
Remember, the price of PI products, is totally irrelevant to the income of the PCO. It's all based on the tariff, which is a constant, and is independent of the price of PI materials. So if robotics trade at 10k isk or at 1 mil ISK, it doesnt matter to the PCO owner, his income is the same.
The idea simply relates to making ISK from PCO's and fighting over them. It really isn't aimed at changing the balance of supply and demand.
I think Scrapyard Bob and I have come up with something that might just be a basis for for PCO's to work without screwing everything else up. Lots of details needs to be worked out yet, like PCO shield bubbles and guns, fuel, how and if things are handled differently in low, null and WH space, what happens to existing CO's when this goes live, etc. I think we need to tweak the numbers a bit, but I'm thinking this could work.
I do want to hear what the dev's are thinking and get some feedback from them. Seems like we are doing much of their work for them. They might be on a entirely different line of thinking. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:06:00 -
[1460] - Quote
bilingi wrote:Well according to you and your whiney carebare remark only PvPers play or should so thanks for proving me right.
As for a profit. Profit from what? So you want it allaince only to support the RMT allainces we already have?... That explains why you like the IDea you get your isk the easy way.
ANd name me one allaince thats going to encourage nuetrals t use thier station,,, You cant with out lieing. The only thing they approve is thier rat bots.
That's not at all what Rootimus said. Perhaps you should read it again. Sound out the big words you don't know, it might help.
Your concerns were addressed about 40 pages ago. |
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bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:12:00 -
[1461] - Quote
NO it was not addresses... People claim this wont happen,,,,, It wil .. Just look at how jumpbridges titans supercaps and al that worked out eh? Not what was originally intended..
But since you claim to have a better education i will bow down before your awesome ISK makeing potential... PS you do have a point with all that moon goo and rat botting income a POCO is dirt cheap snd easy to replace.
OOOPS i left out cry some more? |
Silva Krell
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 00:09:00 -
[1462] - Quote
So can these structures be unanchored? Any news on this yet?
CVA might let neuts use our planets. That is for my leadership to decide, but I am sure it will be considered seriously if it is an option. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 00:38:00 -
[1463] - Quote
Silva Krell wrote:So can these structures be unanchored? Any news on this yet?
CVA might let neuts use our planets. That is for my leadership to decide, but I am sure it will be considered seriously if it is an option.
It's reasonable to presume that like POS's they could be unanchored atm.
However, what we don't have any idea about is once the gantry is upgraded, whether or not it can be unanchored after it has been upgraded?
|
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 02:06:00 -
[1464] - Quote
bilingi wrote:Well according to you and your whiney carebare remark only PvPers play or should so thanks for proving me right.
Actually, my objections are to individuals being able to acheive the same success as groups who work together, and to people being able to sit in the relative safety of highsec and be able to compete on anywhere near an equal footing. Highsec should be a way for people to dangle their feet in the water and get a taste for all aspects of the game. If they want to live there so be it, but if they want the good stuff they should be signposted to lowsec, nullsec and wormhole space.
bilingi wrote:As for a profit. Profit from what? So you want it allaince only to support the RMT allainces we already have?... That explains why you like the IDea you get your isk the easy way.
If people follow through on stomping their feet all the way back to highsec and if the drop in manufacturing isn't picked up somehow then supply goes down while demand likely remains the same. That means profits go up. RMT has nothing to do with it. As for easy, I'll grant you that it's relatively easier to do stuff if, like me, you have a corp and alliance full of great people who work together.
bilingi wrote:ANd name me one allaince thats going to encourage nuetrals t use thier station,,, You cant with out lieing. The only thing they approve is thier rat bots.
I could name my own alliance (we're even going to let reds use our offices), but that would defeat the point of a posting alt. I know of at least one alliance looking to allow neutrals to use theirs. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 02:49:00 -
[1465] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:
I could name my own alliance (we're even going to let reds use our offices), but that would defeat the point of a posting alt. I know of at least one alliance looking to allow neutrals to use theirs.
- 1
For posting alts...
Posting alts: For those times you want to flame and troll, and don't want to start a war in the process |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 03:21:00 -
[1466] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Posting alts: For those times you want to flame and troll, and don't want to start a war in the process
Meh. I don't troll and I'm sorry if one of my posts came across that way. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 04:10:00 -
[1467] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Posting alts: For those times you want to flame and troll, and don't want to start a war in the process Meh. I don't troll and I'm sorry if one of my posts came across that way.
Nah ur good - just sayin' |
Marsan
Production N Destruction INC.
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 05:46:00 -
[1468] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole.
What a load of crap the current concept is... Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining.
Yea that will work until people start posing as indy corp to lead a fleet to siege our POSes. ... |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 08:53:00 -
[1469] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Silva Krell wrote:So can these structures be unanchored? Any news on this yet?
CVA might let neuts use our planets. That is for my leadership to decide, but I am sure it will be considered seriously if it is an option. It's reasonable to presume that like POS's they could be unanchored atm. However, what we don't have any idea about is once the gantry is upgraded, whether or not it can be unanchored after it has been upgraded? I've been thinking about this. Anchorable items like POSes and secure containers can be unanchored. Upgradeable structures cannot. I asume this is precisely why CCP made the CO a structure that needs to be upgraded. CCP prioritizes provoking combat over PI.
|
Nyla Skin
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 09:28:00 -
[1470] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Lolmer wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:
No drop, the items are just destroyed.
What kind of ******** idea is that? Why won't items drop after we destroy the "container"? That's not how EvE works! Even PLEX drops, and items in POS' drop, why would items in the POCO not drop? Yet another example of how poorly thought out this idea is. Do the folks on the team working on the new CO even play Eve? Issler
It makes perfect sense. Its meant to discourage people destroying the COs for fun and profit. I approve of it.
CCP wants the COs to stick around and be a 'political tool'. |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 09:37:00 -
[1471] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:You mention later in your response, income is about 5 mil a week and it would take 4 months to recover investment from a 80m PCO. No one would risk even a T1 BC to keep the PCO operational. Having 1 destroyed would extend payback another 2 months (depending on the BC and fit of course). It does needs more income, but you'll never make a single PCO pay for its defense fleet losses. Even with a bunch of them it will be hard. But that's not much of a problem, people risk more than that every day just to get into fights. I've seen multiple caps dropped and lost in lowsec over medium towers at gas moons.
What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 09:57:00 -
[1472] - Quote
Nyla Skin wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Lolmer wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:
No drop, the items are just destroyed.
What kind of ******** idea is that? Why won't items drop after we destroy the "container"? That's not how EvE works! Even PLEX drops, and items in POS' drop, why would items in the POCO not drop? Yet another example of how poorly thought out this idea is. Do the folks on the team working on the new CO even play Eve? Issler It makes perfect sense. Its meant to discourage people destroying the COs for fun and profit. I approve of it. CCP wants the COs to stick around and be a 'political tool'.
I'd wager the majority of folks 'splode stuff just for the fun of it. Making stuff drop in null sec makes these something interesting for system holders to want to defend. In low sec it would be a bonus but these things will be a low sec gankers new spare time hobby.
Issler
|
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 10:19:00 -
[1473] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:You misunderstood me completely there. I was saying that if the ATTACKERS (!!!) split up to attack multiple POCOs, putting one attacker at each non-primary target just for the mail(s) to cover the primary attack (as you suggested), then those lone attackers could be easily picked off one by one if the defenders do manage to get even a small defense fleet together. Nobody is gonna defend anything unless it is upon reinforcement exit, there are no defenders in your case! Also throughout your replies you constantly seem to think that the increased interaction is supposed to occur at this point in the first place. It isn't - as I've already stated as well. That is what reinforcement is for, to have a time and a place to meet and have "interaction" If someone decides to shoot some POCOs just to generate some mails, let him. Who cares? Unless the POCO is reinforced nobody is gonna move. You can try to drop by if you happen to be in the vicinity, but just wait for him to reinforce it, and either fight him upon reinforcement exit, or rep up the shields enough so that reinforcement resets. Who cares about a couple of (or couple of dozen) mails? Ahh, I understand better now. There is no reason for a lone player to attack a PCO and stick around awaiting a response from defenders. The purpose of him was to create confusion and generate uncertainty. We put in a change today so that mails wont be generated unless you do at least some significant amount of damage. A lone rifter doing a drive by won't trigger it, because that would be annoying. When can that be applied to POS/SBU and probably station/ihub mechanics? :D |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 10:28:00 -
[1474] - Quote
steave435 wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Meldan Anstian wrote:Creat Posudol wrote:You misunderstood me completely there. I was saying that if the ATTACKERS (!!!) split up to attack multiple POCOs, putting one attacker at each non-primary target just for the mail(s) to cover the primary attack (as you suggested), then those lone attackers could be easily picked off one by one if the defenders do manage to get even a small defense fleet together. Nobody is gonna defend anything unless it is upon reinforcement exit, there are no defenders in your case! Also throughout your replies you constantly seem to think that the increased interaction is supposed to occur at this point in the first place. It isn't - as I've already stated as well. That is what reinforcement is for, to have a time and a place to meet and have "interaction" If someone decides to shoot some POCOs just to generate some mails, let him. Who cares? Unless the POCO is reinforced nobody is gonna move. You can try to drop by if you happen to be in the vicinity, but just wait for him to reinforce it, and either fight him upon reinforcement exit, or rep up the shields enough so that reinforcement resets. Who cares about a couple of (or couple of dozen) mails? Ahh, I understand better now. There is no reason for a lone player to attack a PCO and stick around awaiting a response from defenders. The purpose of him was to create confusion and generate uncertainty. We put in a change today so that mails wont be generated unless you do at least some significant amount of damage. A lone rifter doing a drive by won't trigger it, because that would be annoying. When can that be applied to POS/SBU and probably station/ihub mechanics? :D
Yeah potentially, might see how it plays out with COs first. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 12:02:00 -
[1475] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:I'd wager the majority of folks 'splode stuff just for the fun of it. Making stuff drop in null sec makes these something interesting for system holders to want to defend. In low sec it would be a bonus but these things will be a low sec gankers new spare time hobby. Shooting structures for fun? I know of several lowsec towers, at least one of them small, that have been offline for months and nobody has shot yet. And they don't even go into reinforced when offline. Oh, It happens, people will eventually be bored enough to try, but it'll take a while.
The hangars/labs/silos in offline towers, tho, those die really fast. But that's because they have little HP and actually drop stuff. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
alphaspecies
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 13:14:00 -
[1476] - Quote
i've got a few questions...
1: will we be reimbursed for our current launch pads?
2: launch pad = 5km3 storage, command center = 500m3 storage... you gonna give us back the other 4.5km3?
3: exactly why do you feel the need to double hi-sec taxes?
4: and as far as all the taxes from PI, sales, skill books, NPC corp taxes... just where does all this isk go? i know its not just jet-canned into space... can i see an audit of ccp journals?
5: since we organized our planets to dump into a launch pad, we will now probably have to reconfigure our entire network to work with only a command center... you gonna reimburse us for all the mods we will have to decommission and re-establish?
6: exactly why do you feel the need to double hi-sec taxes again?
7: you gonna get rid of the cooldown on expedited transfers? you're whine has been heard... please smile for the target pai...er...camera ... thank you. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 13:24:00 -
[1477] - Quote
CCP Nullabor, any thoughts at to this approach?
Ingvar Angst wrote: Any changes as far as the initial supply? Simply removing the customs offices and waiting for the market to catch up in order to do effective PI again is crippling to say the least.
I like the idea of leaving the customs offices in place and having these supercede them if someone plants one, and the customs office coming back online if one's destroyed. It adds the flavor of people deciding to remove the ones that a hostile corp put up, even if they can't manage to put one up themselves. This at least allows some safeguards, some means for people to be able to fight for the right to do their own PI without corporate interference.
Leaving the customs offices in place as default in the absense of a POCO would really ease a lot of worries... let them be optional. Hell, double taxes on ALL the pocos if you want. At least PI won't get borked in one fell swoop for however many months it takes for the customs offices to be replaced. Allow a gradual shift that the economy can absorb instead of one massive crushing blow without any regards for the economy, pos fuels or existing PI set ups.
This alone would be enough to get rid of any and all concerns I have about POCOs completely. I wish it would at least be considered.
Edit: This also can help preserve the high sec PI industrialists access to low sec PI. Think about it - if someone goes and establishes a POCO on a low sec planet that is being used by high sec folks, they'd best set it up at a fair rate, otherwise it's now worthwhile for the high sec people to head into low and blow the POCO to hell, thus regaining access to their PI through the default customs office. We've seen the complaints that POCOs are going to kill low sec PI, this would keep it alive. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jimmy Watson
Section 5
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 13:29:00 -
[1478] - Quote
Well I've read all the posts......
So whats next?
Going to sell all my stuff to pay for Gantrys and POCO's first ( hope they don't get blown up or I'll be screwed )
Then going to the recruitment chan to find around 30-40 seasoned PVP'ers to help me defend my new POCO's from the big alliance that has it's HQ in the 0.0 system i do PI in.
I'm sure this is the best plan, only other thing i can think of is to stop doing PI!
|
Splatacus
Cordata Enterprises
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 13:40:00 -
[1479] - Quote
Jimmy Watson wrote:Well I've read all the posts......
So whats next?
Going to sell all my stuff to pay for Gantrys and POCO's first ( hope they don't get blown up or I'll be screwed )
Then going to the recruitment chan to find around 30-40 seasoned PVP'ers to help me defend my new POCO's from the big alliance that has it's HQ in the 0.0 system i do PI in.
I'm sure this is the best plan, only other thing i can think of is to stop doing PI!
a) if you read all the posts, congratulations, you gained 100 points. I stopped on page 60 and feel exhausted b) I assume CCP will now analyze the - surprisingly constructive - feedback from this venerable forum c) there are few really broken mechanics in their thinking and some that could be improved with tweaking but overall, I believe the consensus is that POCOS are a good thing for EVE
Waiting for CCP's update now. If I missed it between p60 and wherever we are now, my sincere apologies
|
Anton Stemenoff
Imperium Czochrania Lemura Spolka z o.o. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 13:43:00 -
[1480] - Quote
alphaspecies wrote: 4: and as far as all the taxes from PI, sales, skill books, NPC corp taxes... just where does all this isk go? i know its not just jet-canned into space... can i see an audit of ccp journals?
mon, it is a game, and the isk has to sink in vacuum to make it all turn smoothly... On the other hand - do you think you know where YOUR reallife taxes gone? ha-ha-ha.
But seriously. Will you (I mean CCP) add import option to the command centers? Or my lil smart factory shall close imminent? |
|
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 14:51:00 -
[1481] - Quote
I've thought about this for quite some time, I think the best way would be to tie the tax rates to real market prices the same way that insurance payouts are tied to mineral prices. I don't know if it's feasible to do this in the time frame that is left, but it would be the most balanced approach. The problem with the currently proposed system is that the tax-rates (or rather the ISK values the tax rates are based upon) are fixed and won't react to any changes PI products are bound to go through. It's hard to predict on what price P[x] materials are going to settle on after these changes, or how volatile/stable those prices are going to be.
There have been numbers floating around correlating proposed P0-P4 taxes to their current approx. market value or try to correlate it with m3. For easier reference, here are the proposed (100%) tax values per item. Also given are the approx % of market values of such an item. Market prices are rough averages over all items in the group BEFORE the recent changes were announced: P4: 1 mil; 133 % of 750k P3: 12k; 25% of 45K P2: 180; 3% of 6K P1: 15.2: 6% of 350 P0: 2: 66% of 3 (but who in their right mind wouldn't turn these into P1 first?) Clearly there is quite a difference between the groups. This might have been to some degree intentional, since you're gonna export and (re)import P1-P3 much more than P0 (generally not exported or imported) or P4 (only exported). I would still speculate though that CCP has underestimated the price at which P1 & P2 would settle at, initially intending the tax to be a higher percentage of final market value (keep in mind that current taxes are only 1/20 of those values!).
My proposal would be to set the 100% tax value to something that is read from the market. Like all transaction (not orders!) from the last 3 months (global, over all regions) from a specific category are averaged and then a certain percentage is set as that 100% mark. For example 50% for P0 and P4 and 25% for the others (reflecting their more frequently required im-/export). This should solve the problem with taxed having ridiculous values compared to the actual market value permanently, not just for the current market situation.
A lot of tweaking can be done with this, like use weighted averages based on transactional volume. This would give anything that is used as POS fuel more weight than other products since the by far biggest usage (in raw amount) for PI products is obviously POS fuel (anyone doubting this check market volumes yourself). |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 15:02:00 -
[1482] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:I've thought about this for quite some time, I think the best way would be to tie the tax rates to real market prices the same way that insurance payouts are tied to mineral prices.
The issue would be that CCP lags a lot when it comes to updating those mineral price indexes. As I understand it, it is not automatic, so it only gets updated every few months. They would need to commit to updating the price index of all PI goods much more frequently (weekly or monthly). Plus, I'm not sure they would do so since PI goods aren't used to commit insurance fraud (which is why mineral prices used to calculate insurance finally got adjusted).
Anyone know when the last time that CCP updated the mineral prices used to determined insurance? I suspect it only happens when they update the central tables and distributed new data tables to the clients?
(And +1 for another source showing that existing P1/P2 tariffs are too low and P4 is currently too high.) |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 16:29:00 -
[1483] - Quote
alphaspecies wrote:i've got a few questions..
1. Hopefully not. 2. Hopefully not. 3. I'm not even remotely qualified to talk about the exact percentages that should be used, but the idea of higher taxes is to make lowsec, nullsec and wormhole space far more attractive in terms of production. 4. Look up "isk sink". 5. Hopefully not 7. IMO it should probably be a shorter cooldown, especially if they don't suddenly give you 50,000m3 launch capacity or something equally silly.
Anton Stemenoff wrote:But seriously. Will you (I mean CCP) add import option to the command centers? Or my lil smart factory shall close imminent?
This is very much needed. It's one thing to be denied access to the customs office, but if you want to completely deny a planet to someone you should have to bring enough force to accomplish the task. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 16:33:00 -
[1484] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Silva Krell wrote:So can these structures be unanchored? Any news on this yet?
CVA might let neuts use our planets. That is for my leadership to decide, but I am sure it will be considered seriously if it is an option. It's reasonable to presume that like POS's they could be unanchored atm. However, what we don't have any idea about is once the gantry is upgraded, whether or not it can be unanchored after it has been upgraded? I've been thinking about this. Anchorable items like POSes and secure containers can be unanchored. Upgradeable structures cannot. I asume this is precisely why CCP made the CO a structure that needs to be upgraded. CCP prioritizes provoking combat over PI.
I would agree, but hopefully we can get confirmation from Team Pi that Upgraded PCO's are not unanchorable?
In my opinion, CCP views hi sec as the solution; meaning, PI will continue with PI Operators simply importing for final assembly to a hi sec NPC-CO.
Yes prices will go up, I know I'm not going to eat the increased tariff fees; but PI will none the less continue.
This then makes activity in low sec voluntary and consensual. And while I still believe low sec should have hybridized PCO's, one can only presume from CCP's stand point that they aren't forcing anyone into making imports to low sec planets - that it is player choice.
For myself, I planned ahead with DUST 514 in mind, and intentionally set up my planets in low sec to only be P2 exporters; with no imports in low sec. Therefore, I will only be effected by the increased tariffs. However I am betting that metrics will show that out of low sec PI Operators, a large majority conduct P3 and especially P4 production in hi sec near their low sec export planets.
So, as CCP Omen has clearly stated in this thread, this is a political tool and intended to create greater player interaction -
But in addition to laying preparations for DUST 514, I am beginning to also wonder whether or not this is also an effort to consolidate PI colonies, so they are not as diffused in New Eden? (But it's only a thought on my part)
In the end, I hope that our constructive feedback will help shape the feature in such a way that it will be tolerable and prevent PI Operators from giving up on their PI colonies... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 16:39:00 -
[1485] - Quote
Anton Stemenoff wrote:alphaspecies wrote: 4: and as far as all the taxes from PI, sales, skill books, NPC corp taxes... just where does all this isk go? i know its not just jet-canned into space... can i see an audit of ccp journals?
mon, it is a game, and the isk has to sink in vacuum to make it all turn smoothly... On the other hand - do you think you know where YOUR reallife taxes gone? ha-ha-ha. But seriously. Will you (I mean CCP) add import option to the command centers? Or my lil smart factory shall close imminent?
Guaranteed there will not be import to Command Center
Colony installations are not being fundamentally altered for this feature change. However hopefully we can get a congruent P4 Commodity Rocket launch capability of 25 P4 items per day or something like that, which would be linked to skills.
|
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 17:06:00 -
[1486] - Quote
The discussion about a tax based on a fixed tariff figure vs a tax in some way based on changing PI prices gave me another idea.
Instead of a percentage, that affects all imports and exports equally, why not be able to set a ISK tax on the item itself?
So instead of configuring a percentage, you configure a ISK amount. You want to export a P1 item, it's 10 ISK per unit. A P2 item is 50 ISK per unit. I'm just picking numbers out of the air, there is no analysis backing them up at this point.
I don't know if the mentioned insurance rates adjust automatically or if CCP has to do something to adjust them, but I can easily see where that task would get neglected. Having players entirely responsible for the taxes makes sense to me,rather than having CCP figure out a number that doesn't get changed until it's obvious there is a huge problem with it.
I'm thinking of 1 of 2 possible methods of tax configuration. You set a tax rate for import/export of each level of PI product as a whole. So all P0 goods are taxed at X ISK per unit, all P1 are taxed at X ISK per unit, etc.
The other possibility is that you can set a tax rate per good individually. Toxic metals and industrial fibers are both P1 goods. Perhaps my null space corp/alliance is using the toxic metals to fuel POS's, and industrial fibers have no use for fueling a POS. So why would I not tax toxic metals at 1000 ISK per unit and discourage ninja PI of toxic metals saving those resources for my corps use, but set industrial fiber at 10 ISK per unit to get profit from a good that I have no use for?
Going a bit further, it might make sense that I only allow corp/alliance to use the PCO for toxic metals, locking others out, but I do allow the use of the PCO for other goods. So as a PI person, I could not use your POS to export toxic metals, but I could for industrial fibers.
I don't think it has been asked or answered, can we set import taxes and export taxes to be different amounts? Is there a reason why would could not? The blog only shows 1 tax rate to be entered. It might make low resource planets more attractive to put up a PCO at. There isn't enough resources to make a decent profit with a PCO based on exports from resources on the planet alone, but with my low import taxes and reasonable export taxes, feel free to use my planet for manufacturing higher level goods.
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 18:07:00 -
[1487] - Quote
At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 18:21:00 -
[1488] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple.
I have Rocket Science V |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 18:22:00 -
[1489] - Quote
I just had a very enlightening read of an article about DUST 514; which contained some relevant insight and quotes regarding this feature change:
Quote:Dust 514 battles take place not in EveGÇÖs star systems, but on a select number of planets. PS3 players sign in to EveGÇÖs own social network and can negotiate contracts with PC players.
For an agreed ISK bounty fee, a Dust mercenary could, for example, take control of a planetGÇÖs anti-aircraft weapon and fire at co-ordinated targets into EveGÇÖs outer space GÇô all in real-time.
They could, on the other hand, be paid to take command of an entire planet so a contractor is free to plunder the area. Players will need to decide, and haggle, on objectives and rewards for themselves.
...
GÇ£We wonGÇÖt pretend weGÇÖll know what will happen as we begin connecting the two games and allowing information to flow between both. That will iterate over time. But the objective is to make Dust 514 be significant to the world of Eve and vice-versa. So Dust players can call in air support or munitions from Eve players." [Thor Gunnarsson]
I think one of the missing pieces of the puzzle in our thread discussion, is the fact that there are future features related to planets that CCP can not, or prefers not to disclose at this time.
Case in point: PCO Defences - where are they? There aren't any .... At the moment.
In videos regarding DUST 514 - E3 2011 as well as the video A Vision of the Future we see both the ability to fire into orbit, as well as a non-station installation that could well be a more advanced form of PCO - Orbital Elevator (Which will be further Corporate inclusion to Planets beyond just anchoring a PCO).
I think it is fair, as regards PCO defense, to take a step back and try to gain perspective on what may be instore down the road that while Team Pi would like to tell us, they are embargoed from doing so at this time?
It may very well be that PCO defense will not be orbital and stationary around the PCO itself, but planetary (at least in the near future)
For myself, this revelation has caused me to realize that not only do we need to think like EVE players, but should deeply consider thinking like DUST players as well (ie absorbing knowledge about DUST and how it applies to us) And ultimately, while we absolutely should challenge and question CCP Developers, I think we should also moderate some unreasoned opposition instead with a rational and reasonable arguement, so that our criticism is constructive and genuinely sincere; and ultimately result in the best compromise possible between our community and CCP Developers.
I also think, that this same 'expanded' perception applies to even more then just PCO defences as well...
*(For those that care to read the full article - which is worthy of an entirely new thread - you can read the original article Develop - DUST 514 Interview: Chaning Console Shooters Forever |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 18:41:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple.
We are talking about launching things from a command center into space. So yes, rocket science V would be good. :) |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 19:04:00 -
[1491] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple. We are talking about launching things from a command center into space. So yes, rocket science V would be good. :)
Dammit, I walked right into that one.
What would be wrong with leaving the customs offices intact as they are now, but shutting them down if someone plants a POCO? Then if the POCO is destroyed or removed the customs office comes back online. I think this would really enhance things and allow changes to happen at a pace the community and economy can handle. It would keep low sec PI fully intact, even for high sec npc corp people by letting them maintain what they have and, if necessary, they could fight to regain PI lost by going into low and popping a POCO someone put up on their favored planet(s). It would allow null and wormholes plenty of transition time without borking up existing PI, would remove the problem of not being able to import goods to the planet during the transitions, and frankly would keep a lot of it optional. Some people may choose to keep their PI running through customs offices, others may choose to take the benefits of the POCO and erect those.
The taxes... ugh, I'll leave that to others to play with the numbers. But this, I can't really see a downside at all to implementing them this way. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 19:39:00 -
[1492] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:What would be wrong with leaving the customs offices intact as they are now, but shutting them down if someone plants a POCO?
Nothing, TBH.
Ingvar Angst wrote:Then if the POCO is destroyed or removed the customs office comes back online.
You can't have it both ways. Once the Concord one goes, it should be gone for good. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 19:50:00 -
[1493] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:What would be wrong with leaving the customs offices intact as they are now, but shutting them down if someone plants a POCO? Nothing, TBH. Ingvar Angst wrote:Then if the POCO is destroyed or removed the customs office comes back online. You can't have it both ways. Once the Concord one goes, it should be gone for good.
But... why?
If you leave it, then there's a whole new strategy regarding these. The main ones I'm thinking of are the high sec people that PI in low, but the advantages go everywhere. However... the high sec folks, if they find an unfriendly corp has planted one of these on a planet they're farming, are screwed right now with the stated implementation. This we can agree to, yes? Basically, there's nothing to gain for the high sec people (thinking npc corp types) to attack that POCO... they still won't be able to efficiently do their PI.
HOWEVER... if the customs office remains, they can now destroy the POCO and once again have access to their PI in full. It would incentivize folks even in NPC corps into low to fight for their rights to a planet, and it would incentivize anyone putting a POCO up in a contested planet/area to do so with rates that the high sec folks won't take offense to, and to allow access to them.
I really don't see how anyone loses, except for corps that try to take sole and complete control of a low sec system near high sec. They'll have the possibility of having to fight off a bunch of pissed off NPC corp people... and they may actually like that.
Everyone wins! Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 20:01:00 -
[1494] - Quote
If the existing COs in low/null/W are left in place, with low tariff rates, there will be no incentive to put up new ones.
SovNull/W space COs should definitely go away - there's not supposed to be NPC infrastructure in those systems.
Lo-sec COs (and NPC null) could stay, but only if they charge the full 100% tariff on everything (including launches). Which would provide financial incentive for someone to come in, put up a POCO and charge less. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 20:03:00 -
[1495] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:The main ones I'm thinking of are the high sec people that PI in low, but the advantages go everywhere. However... the high sec folks, if they find an unfriendly corp has planted one of these on a planet they're farming, are screwed right now with the stated implementation.
And they should be screwed. The whole point of this game is that if you want something, you take it by bribery, blackmail, skullduggery or overwhelming force. The highsec bears need to pick one or more of the above. |
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 21:26:00 -
[1496] - Quote
So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters. POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).
POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.
POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there. I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.
Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.
Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 21:40:00 -
[1497] - Quote
After all the excuses from the ass****ers.. It comes down to CCP and its supporters just do not want casual players in low sec or anywhere else.
Good thing there are no other MMOs coming out soon. |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 21:52:00 -
[1498] - Quote
Max O'Deel wrote:So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters. POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).
POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.
POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there. I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.
Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.
Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved.
POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.
We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
Matalino
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 22:02:00 -
[1499] - Quote
Max O'Deel wrote:POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue). Your corp can tax PI like you would tax rat bounties, or you make PI free for your corp/allies. Either way your corp gets to keep ISK that would otherwise go down a sink.
Max O'Deel wrote:POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it. You have 24-47 hours to form your defence. There is little point in defending the POCO before it comes out of reinforcement. You have the defensive advantage with the WH being your home territory while the attackers must setup fresh logistics so that they can attack on two different days.
Max O'Deel wrote:POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there. Buy the POCO BPC's through contracts or buy the POCO's from the market. This is the same as any other commodity. There are so many different ways that items are seeded that it is impractical for anyone to get everything they want directly from its source. If the prices for POCO BPC's are "too high", then players will migrate towards running Incursions/Faction Warfare until the price is driven down. This is the same as pirate faction ship BPC's being priced "too high", except that POCO BPC's will be even more accessible and therefore subject to faster price corrections.
This change certainly appears to favor W-space over low-sec. Depending on any further revisions, I will be looking at relocating my low-sec PI operations to W-space. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 22:05:00 -
[1500] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max O'Deel wrote:So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters. POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).
POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.
POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there. I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.
Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.
Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved. POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active. We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.
i was hoping this crap wouldnt make it into game tbh. oh well guess its more crap to shoot that dosnt shoot back when you take over space. just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
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El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 22:46:00 -
[1501] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels? Not just POS fuels. These are building materials as well. And their importance will increase, not just with the introduction of the player-owned custom office, but also with others. A new item group for Orbital Infrastructure will be created. This will include the new Custom Office, but also the new Orbital Command structure. I expect more structures will appear that can be used to upgrade a solar system. It seems logical to asume that these structures will also require PI materials (and FW/Incursion LP for the BPCs). |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 23:15:00 -
[1502] - Quote
Max O'Deel wrote:POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
IIRC, only 2 NPC stations in the entire game seed the covetor BPO. That's never been a problem, so how do you forsee a problem when far more than 2 stations will be seeding the customs office prints? |
Solo Player
103
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 23:22:00 -
[1503] - Quote
@CCP Phantom: Are you still taking notes?
CCP Phantom wrote: Please remember also that most of the people like the idea of more industry options, a more player governed game world with fewer artificial NPC interaction. There are also many people who like specifically the proposed changes. But this is not the topic of this list.
I beg to differ. While I'm sure nobody minds the idea of more industry options, I'm sure not everyone is so hot on them just throwing plausibility out of the window. NPCs are there for a reason, to give the game some foundation in lore and history, to provide some flavour and a sense of scale and profundity to the universe and the players' interactions with it, and for some, even a sense of purpose. Sure, they are also there to provide all the menial jobs players wouldn't want to do, but that's no reason to just reduce them to bland unthinking and uniform robots. I would even go as far as to argue that the current understanding of capsuleers as "demigods" far beyond the means of ordinary men but holding judgement over the lives and deaths of thousands at the blink of an eye by some divine right not only does not sit well with many players but actually takes away from the wonderful universe you have created as well as from the pull of eve as a game for the less pvp oriented.
tl/dr: Unfortunately, your game is very much lacking at the moment in plausibility, and if you really care to create the "Ultimate Sci-Fi Simulator" as Hilmar says, you should avoid making things even worse with features that don't fit with lore at all. |
Edart eno
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 00:07:00 -
[1504] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Raziphan Rebular wrote:XavierVE wrote:Quote:Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec. And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec. Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over. That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen
But this is where you are so horribly wrong, corps will not set a 9% tax! Please let me explain and bare with me.
I love the idea, I really do. However in practice it will never ever work the way you now intend it to. The reason for this is very simple; the "tax-amount " balance won't work in a game with players and mechanics like EVE. I know what you are thinking (atleast I like to believe I do), you are hoping that corps will lower their taxes because 1: if they lower their taxes, more people will use their planet and therefore more revenues again. 2: the higher their taxes the more chance PI'ers will get discontent and destroy the office.
However in reality this 'free-market' dynamism will never happen because: 1: - Planet installations are Immobile and specific to the planet. (and this one is a biggy!) - Planets are only really survivable for perhaps 1 to 3,4 players. - Planet resource layout, Installation setup, logistical problems, ... already make planets highly unsuitable for comparison, combine that with a dynamic tax and people will have no means to effectively compare planets --> no incentive for the corps to adjust their taxes --> Planet taxes will go from a free market equilibrum to a hostage/griefing mechanisme.
2: - the people who will be shooting down the Offices won't be other PI'ers, but will be griefers or mercs, just like we can see with POS'es in low sec. Effectively making PI just another Moon mining, SOV warfare, Corp, Alliance slugfest and to be honest we've already got plenty of those who already should be more than lucrative and exciting...
Or Limit this system to Non Empire (this system is perfect for NPC Null to stand out from Low or regular sec, and give WH holders some extra isk and means from invaders) Or Limit the tax range amount from example 2% to 30% max Or Combine these two and have Null do what it wants and Low only have taxes up to 15-20% max (can be a lot lower since it already is a fairly large amount for relatively an entirely passive income)
I would really love your personal opinion about this CCP! Thanks |
gfldex
361
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 00:19:00 -
[1505] - Quote
Max O'Deel wrote: POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there.
How many do you want?
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 02:39:00 -
[1506] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.
We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.
Yikes. It seems like concerns are bouncing off deaf ears.
I'm really not convinced you all are actually thinking this through...the side effects this will really have. You're so eager to do it you're not considering whether you should.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Creat Posudol
Destined for Greatness Inc.
47
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 03:56:00 -
[1507] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:
POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.
We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.
Yikes. It seems like concerns are bouncing off deaf ears. I'm really not convinced you all are actually thinking this through...the side effects this will really have. You're so eager to do it you're not considering whether you should.
Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? Not only did CCP respond to him in less than 30 minutes, addressing his concerns, but less than 10 minutes after that he got a detailed explanation on why his concerns are unwarranted by Matalino. I was about to post a reply quite similar to that btw until I saw his response. I got the impression that Max O'Deel only skimmed the dev blog and surely hasn't read much on this thread about the feature as he clearly didn't know about the reinforcement timers. The currently proposed implementation of them makes them basically unattackable in wormholes (at least from a practical standpoint). You reinforce one or two of these structures and the what? Log off in the WH system for somewhere between 24 and 48 hours with the entire fleet to let it come out of reinforced and the kill it? At the very least you'd have to leave a scanning alt to find another entry to the system, do some random amount of jumps to get there (5-50?), attack the thing again hoping it isn't defended by the entire population of the WH? For what? to put op your own POCO there? Yea right... With that amount of effort you can kill a POS easily, so again: why on earth would anyone attack one of these inside a WH? If anything this mechanic is too good for those living in WHs.
Yes, you won't make any ISK from the POCOs you need to put up, but you will stop paying ISK for any exports in that case. Sure, it's not gonna be huge but you live in a WH, so it really does make no sense for the current COs to be there in the first place. So be glad for the time you got them basically for free, now it's time to put up your own in what is effectively your own space. Where you also very possibly make a pretty large amount of money anyway...
The only really valid point of that post would be that (at least initially) there might not be enough gantries to go around (and/or the available ones might be sold at insane prices). This will only be the case though if they keep the current plan to not have any sort of transitional period, mainly because it would be pretty stupid and this fact has been pointed out very often. But even if they decide to leave it at the currently proposed removal mechanic and all non-highsec COs are removed: you use PI for POS fuel production, just get some extra supply to last about a month or so beforehand? That amount can easily be hauled in to any wormhole (with T1 haulers if holes are too small for anything serious), but any serious WH corp will have such an amount on hand anyway for unforeseen circumstances. You still need to get some stuff from the regular market anyway, just send 1-2 more ships for the pickup and have them load the full fuel set. It's not like you don't know this is coming, right? After that amount of time the market will have stabilized for POCOs surely, more likely it will have done so after about a week.
Don't get me wrong, the proposal as it is now is far from perfect and some of my good will towards the whole thing is based on the expectation that some obviously bad choices are iterated upon before this hits the live server. However, nothing of what you've mentioned falls into that category as I've also explained above. Let's just hope they correct the issues potentially causing bigger problems. As it stands, WHs are the least disadvantaged group among those affected by the change (namely low, null and WHs). Their only issue is either getting them quick enough to sustain their POS(s) or hauling the fuel for them to hold out long enough to get the POCOs. |
Diametrix
Wavefront Industries
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 05:11:00 -
[1508] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels? Not just POS fuels. These are building materials as well. And their importance will increase, not just with the introduction of the player-owned custom office, but also with others. A new item group for Orbital Infrastructure will be created. This will include the new Custom Office, but also the new Orbital Command structure. I expect more structures will appear that can be used to upgrade a solar system. It seems logical to asume that these structures will also require PI materials (and FW/Incursion LP for the BPCs).
Such a great post. I hope this is incredibly accurate insight into exactly what CCP has planned... if not - it damn well better be soon!
I for one would welcome our new PC-Console Overlords
Thisiswhatimtalkinabout |
Dominus Alterai
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 06:19:00 -
[1509] - Quote
Is it just me or are PI resources going to make eve exactly like Road Warrior....
"JUST WALK AWAY! YOU CAN PUT A STOP TO ALL OF THIS! JUST WALK AWAY AND SPARE YOUR LIVES!" Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 10:00:00 -
[1510] - Quote
Meh.
I did some quick check of how many PI colonies lowsec planets have (btw, some better tools for this would be handy). Most planets in the 3 systems I checked had at most 1 colonies, a handful had 2, and one had 4. There's no way to tell whether these belong to active players or not. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
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Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 10:04:00 -
[1511] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels? Not just POS fuels. These are building materials as well. And their importance will increase, not just with the introduction of the player-owned custom office, but also with others. A new item group for Orbital Infrastructure will be created. This will include the new Custom Office, but also the new Orbital Command structure. I expect more structures will appear that can be used to upgrade a solar system. It seems logical to asume that these structures will also require PI materials (and FW/Incursion LP for the BPCs).
to me pi is for pos fuels. i dont have any intrest in the other higher things. but i use pos's and have to either get people in corp to do the mind numbing chore that is pi or buy it. fighting wars with other allliances over pos fuel and or even planety things isnt gonna happen any time soon. well unless they plan to change the build req's for every mod/ship/item in game. and even then its a little far fetched to think wars will happen over pos fuel/planet things. pass what your smoking ccp dev's, i know that **** is good CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
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Camios
Minmatar Bread Corporation
75
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 10:17:00 -
[1512] - Quote
This has been pointed out already:
I am one of those little guys out of a corp (by now). I would like to be able to carry a Gantry in my Prowler, that has a cargo capacity of 8730 m3 (2 cargo expanders II, obviously minmatar industrial V, and 2 cargohold optimization t1 rigs). Plase note that even with T2 rigs I would not be able to carry the gantry (I would get a 9500m3 cargo, I would just miss 100m3).
Otherwise I will have to
- Either look for an escort/scout, travelling with a mastodon, but it will take a lot of time, a cloak and luck
- or put a POS up and produce the gantry locally (all doable with a blockade runner). I will need a lot of time anyway
As you see I have alternatives, but those amarr slavers have a much easier time.
Suggestion: If you want to give Amarr and Gallente a bone, you could change the numbers so that their blockade runners are able to carry the gantry and all the necessary material in one go, while us poor minmatars and caldaries will have to make 2 trips.
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 10:32:00 -
[1513] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:
POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active.
We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.
Yikes. It seems like concerns are bouncing off deaf ears. I'm really not convinced you all are actually thinking this through...the side effects this will really have. You're so eager to do it you're not considering whether you should. Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?
If you'd read my posts you'd understand. Implementation. Simply removing all the customs offices then having to wait for people to build the POCOs to replace them flat out doesn't make sense. Not allowing customs offices to be a default state (instead of nothing) craps all over people in high sec trying to do PI in low. The have nothing to fight for if some asshat plants a POCO and cuts off access to them.
If you left the customs offices but had them be inactive when a POCO is present you solve a ton of problems. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 10:42:00 -
[1514] - Quote
Camios wrote:
- Either look for an escort/scout, travelling with a mastodon, but it will take a lot of time, a cloak and luck
- or put a POS up and produce the gantry locally (all doable with a blockade runner). I will need a lot of time anyway
I don't think you can build the gantry at a POS, I think it takes a station slot like towers. But you forgot an alternative: train amarr or gallente blockade runners.
What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 13:53:00 -
[1515] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:just be straight, this is the start of the eve- dust link and you want us fighting over pos fuels? Not just POS fuels. These are building materials as well. And their importance will increase, not just with the introduction of the player-owned custom office, but also with others. A new item group for Orbital Infrastructure will be created. This will include the new Custom Office, but also the new Orbital Command structure. I expect more structures will appear that can be used to upgrade a solar system. It seems logical to asume that these structures will also require PI materials (and FW/Incursion LP for the BPCs).
Well, that would be more true if newer recipes would include a mix of traditional stuff like minerals as well as using the PI produced items. It feels like the PI materials live in their own little silo where traditional components aren't available (and vice-versa).
For instance, why does the new POCO base item not require any tritanium or pyerite or (whatever) at all? |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 13:56:00 -
[1516] - Quote
Production of P1 and P2 commodities that are POS Fuel do not require imports if set up properly, and with the right skill levels - they only need to be exported.
P3 Commodities can not be processed up without importing P2 Commodities to planet - Robotics is the only P3 Commodity that is POS fuel.
For those that only view PI as a POS fuel source, there is little to no problem as PCO's will only be needed for production of Robotics. All other POS Fuels can be rocket launched.
Nothing really difficult here... |
Kevin Thoughts
Dopehead Industries Broken Chains Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 14:17:00 -
[1517] - Quote
I'm a relatively new player, being on EVE for a few months now. I've recently grown to the point where PI has become possible for me. I enjoy it a lot, even wrote a newbies guide to PI that got reasonable reviews (http://www.kevinsthoughts.com/?p=435).
I have a few concerns:
1) Is the "50% of all PI is done in high-sec" based on solid data or just an educated guess? Because...
2) When this goes live, PI in low-sec and below will be virtually stopped. Without custom offices, importation will not be possible, so grinding out P4 products will simply cease. I would suggest that Concord custom offices only be destroyed when a Corporation upgrades a gantry to a fully functional CO.
3) This is going to be really bad for small corporations focused on PI. I'm figuring to create the P4s needed to simply build a POCO will require 7 characters and something like 28 PI infrastructures spread over 11 planets. Now one player with 3 accounts could do this, but its more likely that a small corporation would currently take on such a task. The hundreds of M ISK needed to set it up is a LOT to us. That's OK, gives us something to look forward to - a reasonable goal. However, there is no way we could defend, or afford to hire mercs to defend, such an infrastructure. I would recommend that (3) levels of COs be established: Concord in High-Sec, Restricted in Low-Sec (Max tariff at 20%, can not block access, can not be attacked), as planned in null-sec and WH space. We CAN afford to build these - we have time - but we could never afford the billion+ ISK to buy that - and I suspect many a medium size corp would think twice about it given the risk. Likewise, we are too new to have the skills to fly reppers much less defend such stations. Was it really the intent to shut down another section of EVE to newer players to entertain older ones?
4) The comment that "little guys should stick to high-sec" was insulting. Been there, did that. Quickly moved to low-sec for yields. Doing so was a great "coming of age" stepping stone for me and in fact resulted in my creation of a 3rd account. Never would have done that if restricted to high-sec.
Overall concerned about the slow decline in pilot numbers I think I see happening. EVE has very few things players a few months old can do successfully. The game needs more of these "semi-new" player areas, not less. As planned, this patch will tell us again "Sorry... unless your a lifer here in a huge corp, this is not for you". |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 15:13:00 -
[1518] - Quote
Kevin Thoughts wrote:I'm a relatively new player, being on EVE for a few months now. I've recently grown to the point where PI has become possible for me. I enjoy it a lot, even wrote a newbies guide to PI that got reasonable reviews (http://www.kevinsthoughts.com/?p=435).
I have a few concerns:
1) Is the "50% of all PI is done in high-sec" based on solid data or just an educated guess? Because...
2) When this goes live, PI in low-sec and below will be virtually stopped. Without custom offices, importation will not be possible, so grinding out P4 products will simply cease. I would suggest that Concord custom offices only be destroyed when a Corporation upgrades a gantry to a fully functional CO.
3) This is going to be really bad for small corporations focused on PI. I'm figuring to create the P4s needed to simply build a POCO will require 7 characters and something like 28 PI infrastructures spread over 11 planets. Now one player with 3 accounts could do this, but its more likely that a small corporation would currently take on such a task. The hundreds of M ISK needed to set it up is a LOT to us. That's OK, gives us something to look forward to - a reasonable goal. However, there is no way we could defend, or afford to hire mercs to defend, such an infrastructure. I would recommend that (3) levels of COs be established: Concord in High-Sec, Restricted in Low-Sec (Max tariff at 20%, can not block access, can not be attacked), as planned in null-sec and WH space. We CAN afford to build these - we have time - but we could never afford the billion+ ISK to buy that - and I suspect many a medium size corp would think twice about it given the risk. Likewise, we are too new to have the skills to fly reppers much less defend such stations. Was it really the intent to shut down another section of EVE to newer players to entertain older ones?
4) The comment that "little guys should stick to high-sec" was insulting. Been there, did that. Quickly moved to low-sec for yields. Doing so was a great "coming of age" stepping stone for me and in fact resulted in my creation of a 3rd account. Never would have done that if restricted to high-sec.
Overall concerned about the slow decline in pilot numbers I think I see happening. EVE has very few things players a few months old can do successfully. The game needs more of these "semi-new" player areas, not less. As planned, this patch will tell us again "Sorry... unless your a lifer here in a huge corp, this is not for you".
1. IIRC, CCP Omen floated this number.
2. True, until there are sufficient PCO's produced and anchored in Eve. It's almost universally thought to be a very lazy and poor plan at implementing this to just remove the existing CO's. There has been several suggestions to ease the transition, no response from CCP as of yet.
3. You can easily but P4 products or components used to make them on the markets. I do it all the time and after doing the math, my profits are better than trying to squeeze in a extracting another P0 material. I don't believe the max tariff of 20% in low sec would work economically. I considered the can't block access idea, but dismissed it because I disagree with it from consistency of game play standpoint. Can not be attacked doesn't achieve the goal and doesn't make sense in low sec.
I very much disagree with the comment that there is little a few months old player can do. There is tons to do, almost anything that a few years old player can do. The key is specializing in a career. A new player is not as versatile as an older player, very true, but to say new players don't have much to do is wrong IMO.
|
Sealy
The Huskarl's
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 15:39:00 -
[1519] - Quote
Well CCP you have made another thing that will make large corps richer and the Small and medium Corps Poorer. Are you the American federal Reserve by any chance?
So lets look at this.
A large 0.0 corp comes out and destroys all COGÇÖs in the low sec systems around their staging areas.
They will then build their own.
They then put taxes up to 100% with only the corps that run these areas having access to the ability to change taxes.
This will cause people to leave making the planets grow with resources as over mining is no longer a problem.
Then when the Corp or Alliance want to empty the CO they change the tax to 0%, empty it and then back up to 100% in a matter of minutes.
The will stop all players using the CO except for the holding Alliance / Corp.
This means that the small / medium corps will move to high sec where it is not really profitable due to the over mining of the resources. This will then kill PI for most players.
If a medium corp destroys a CO and places their own, you will find they only do this once as they have no chance to defend against 5 titans 40 super caps 70caps 200bs and a 300+ Support fleet.
Ok a bit over the top with the amount of ships but Large 0.0 Corps can pull that amount quite easy.
You want to get more people into low sec and 0.0 but this will not do it.
Players can use the launch pad, but make the launch pad the same size as a CO making the payer have to decloak before picking up his stash and make it worth the risk of having to jump into a Lowsec / NPC 0.0
To make PI Interesting you should remove the restriction that you have to be a part of the alliance to place PI in 0.0. This will also make people go into 0.0 whom are not a member of the alliance and it then will make the DUST514 more relevant in 0.0 Now if you think this will not happen, lets look what is currently happening.
Goons (All Gallente Ice fields are theirs)
Goons (All 0.0 Incursions are theirs as they want the BP of the Super cap)
PL (All Amamake and surrounding lowsec area is theirs with all incursions as they also want the super cap)
Know 0.0 Scam BWF-ZZ place a contract for a courier service and once it has been taken raise the docking fees to a crazy amount which gives the Pilots 2 choices, Pay and lose money or cancel the contract and lose your deposit??? Ummm. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 16:06:00 -
[1520] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Production of P1 and P2 commodities that are POS Fuel do not require imports if set up properly, and with the right skill levels - they only need to be exported.
P3 Commodities can not be processed up without importing P2 Commodities to planet - Robotics is the only P3 Commodity that is POS fuel.
For those that only view PI as a POS fuel source, there is little to no problem as PCO's will only be needed for production of Robotics. All other POS Fuels can be rocket launched.
Nothing really difficult here...
except when it comes to exporting any of the products from the panet. unless you will be able to transfer directly from planet to pos netweokds(omfg that woudl be awesom pos and pi sucks ass) CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 18:24:00 -
[1521] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Production of P1 and P2 commodities that are POS Fuel do not require imports if set up properly, and with the right skill levels - they only need to be exported.
P3 Commodities can not be processed up without importing P2 Commodities to planet - Robotics is the only P3 Commodity that is POS fuel.
For those that only view PI as a POS fuel source, there is little to no problem as PCO's will only be needed for production of Robotics. All other POS Fuels can be rocket launched.
Nothing really difficult here... except when it comes to exporting any of the products from the panet. unless you will be able to transfer directly from planet to pos netweokds(omfg that woudl be awesom pos and pi sucks ass)
Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.
Robotics can be exported the same at a smaller volume, after P2 Consumer Electronics and Mechanical Parts have been imported and processed into P3 Robotics.
So again... not alot of difficulty when 80% of your POS fuels do not need a PCO to function. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 21:02:00 -
[1522] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.
Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats?
You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 00:13:00 -
[1523] - Quote
Parts of this idea are good, but they really need to rethink low sec!
Issler |
Sherksilver
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 01:51:00 -
[1524] - Quote
I think the idea is good - but the transition needs work...
Something like they did for SoV maybe. Right now - it is gonna be a zoo and a half come the day this hits... Everyone and their brother will be after the BPC or the Gantries themselves (Especially low, 0.0, and even peeps in wormholes). The fact that it requires faction to get the BPC is gonna be a major hammer to the pipeline, and will cause many, many people massive grief until things really stabilize.
Some sort of sane transition would be nice... - not gonna hold my breath tho... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 02:59:00 -
[1525] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.
Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats? You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea.
Not at all... However, that is high volume production, and admittedly was not the focus on my statement.
Regardless, because you only need be in system, and uncloaked, to launch a rocket, as well as the fact that P2 processors even doubled up can only produce 480 units per day:
What are the Planetary Commodity quantities needed on a Large Tower for 1 day (Caldari at full CPU and PG usage, for example only):
Enriched Uranium - 96
Oxygen - 600
Mechanical Parts - 120
Coolant - 192
Robotics - 24
So, while you have to be quiet the sadist, it is possible, though highly inefficient, to use Command Center rocket launches with out a PCO.
What this means is that, in the case of WH Space, if a PCO was 'good time fun' ganked just to grief the WH occupants, that P1 and P2 production of Planetary Commodities is feasible. At least and until a new PCO can be built and anchored.
As for robotics, the maximum capacity in a Large Tower is 27 days and 3 hrs worth, which is only 651 units.
So if the tower is fully fueled, even if there is no PCO available it is possilbe to do daily or every two day launches of P1 and P2 for a month, before you run out of robotics.
That's plenty of time to get another PCO requisitioned, built, and anchored before the POS runs out of robotics fuel.
So again, you'd have to be a sadist to want to run a POS solely off of rocket launches of P1 and P2 commodities; however that's not what I'm advocating....
I'm saying for the part time PI Operator, rocket launches can be a inefficient but still viable means of getting P1 and P2 to market.
For WH residents, if they ever lost their PCO for making robotics (for example) or other PCO's for large volume planetary commodity production. They could suffice until they were able to re-anchor a PCO.
A Pain - ABSOLUTELY... but I'm not trying to say what's good or bad - just what the numbers tell us... and they tell us that with some adjustments we can survive the PCO feature. |
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries The Methodical Alliance
194
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 06:24:00 -
[1526] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.
Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats? You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea. Not at all... However, that is high volume production, and admittedly was not the focus on my statement. Regardless, because you only need be in system, and uncloaked, to launch a rocket, as well as the fact that P2 processors even doubled up can only produce 480 units per day: What are the Planetary Commodity quantities needed on a Large Tower for 1 day (Caldari at full CPU and PG usage, for example only): Enriched Uranium - 96 Oxygen - 600 Mechanical Parts - 120 Coolant - 192 Robotics - 24 So, while you have to be quiet the sadist, it is possible, though highly inefficient, to use Command Center rocket launches with out a PCO. What this means is that, in the case of WH Space, if a PCO was 'good time fun' ganked just to grief the WH occupants, that P1 and P2 production of Planetary Commodities is feasible. At least and until a new PCO can be built and anchored. As for robotics, the maximum capacity in a Large Tower is 27 days and 3 hrs worth, which is only 651 units. So if the tower is fully fueled, even if there is no PCO available it is possilbe to do daily or every two day launches of P1 and P2 for a month, before you run out of robotics. That's plenty of time to get another PCO requisitioned, built, and anchored before the POS runs out of robotics fuel. So again, you'd have to be a sadist to want to run a POS solely off of rocket launches of P1 and P2 commodities; however that's not what I'm advocating.... I'm saying for the part time PI Operator, rocket launches can be a inefficient but still viable means of getting P1 and P2 to market. For WH residents, if they ever lost their PCO for making robotics (for example) or other PCO's for large volume planetary commodity production. They could suffice until they were able to re-anchor a PCO. A Pain - ABSOLUTELY... but I'm not trying to say what's good or bad - just what the numbers tell us... and they tell us that with some adjustments we can survive the PCO feature.
Haha CCP is gonna read this and go 'yep we're heard enough, LAUNCH THE PCO BPO'S!'
'Also close this thread, it is no longer needed. They'll be fine.' |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
44
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 08:15:00 -
[1527] - Quote
BTW, CCP really needs to rethink the customs office locations too.
Small gang and solo baiting became very messy when every planet got one (like they eventually will after this change too), so there was a very close but separate warpable grid for every planet, even those without belts. So people following a target will warp to the wrong place 50% of the time and any kind of splitting gangs became near impossible. The change was very bad for higher end PVP, please change this.
Either move the customs offices to the same exact spot as the planet or do something else. Maybe make the customs offices only visitable via probing and never visible on overview?
BTW one solution would be to only change things if a planet has 0 belts (because those are the best "baiting" warpables, one clear location), so make a rule where those will have the customs office in the same exact spot as the planet, but don't change anything if the planet has belts and thus several warpables even without PI. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 09:09:00 -
[1528] - Quote
Raimo wrote:BTW, CCP really needs to rethink the customs office locations too.
Small gang and solo baiting became very messy when every planet got one (like they eventually will after this change too), so there was a very close but separate warpable grid for every planet, even those without belts. So people following a target will warp to the wrong place 50% of the time and any kind of splitting gangs became near impossible. The change was very bad for higher end PVP, please change this.
Either move the customs offices to the same exact spot as the planet or do something else. Maybe make the customs offices only visitable via probing and never visible on overview?
BTW one solution would be to only change things if a planet has 0 belts (because those are the best "baiting" warpables, one clear location), so make a rule where those will have the customs office in the same exact spot as the planet, but don't change anything if the planet has belts and thus several warpables even without PI.
Hmm, interesting question.
You're at a planet with no PCO, and you anchor one or a gantry. Previously, there was 2 warp in spots for the planet, the CO and the planet itself.
With everything else, you have always plopped something down where you were and could anchor it. A POS gets dropped 130km or whatever away from you, but still on grid.
I would like there to continue to be 2 warp in points for a planet, the planet and the CO. The answers from devs have kinda indicated that you have a choice where you anchor a PCO. Maybe that's not such a good idea. I disagree with having to scan down a PCO to use it.
Another question that has never been answered by the devs... what happens to the stuff that a PI player has in the PCO if it gets destroyed? They have already indicated that the attacker gets no drops, and also that the size of the hanger in the CO would go to up 35k m3 I think. Depending on how often they actually get attacked, it may make no sense for a PI player to store anything in the PCO at all ever for more than a few minutes. It would also adversely affect PI itself, and the PI players only defense is to not use the PCO hanger, since they never get a email that the PCO was under attack. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 09:12:00 -
[1529] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:I would like there to continue to be 2 warp in points for a planet, the planet and the CO. The answers from devs have kinda indicated that you have a choice where you anchor a PCO. Maybe that's not such a good idea. I disagree with having to scan down a PCO to use it.
There's a dev reply in this thread that says customs offices will continue to show up on overview.
Meldan Anstian wrote:Another question that has never been answered by the devs... what happens to the stuff that a PI player has in the PCO if it gets destroyed?
Also been answered in this thread. If you blow up the office, everything in it is destroyed.
Reading: it's FUNdamental. |
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 09:32:00 -
[1530] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max O'Deel wrote:So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters. POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).
POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.
POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there. I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.
Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.
Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved. POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active. We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.
And what about the small corps who are just managing to make a go of being settled in WH space do they just pack up and go or are you going to supply incursions in the WH so they may work them, or do you expect them to all leave the WH and POS undefended, in the faint hope they might accrue enough points to gain a BPC. TIME IS A MAJOR FACTOR HERE not the concept. They are going to be unable to keep making fuel until these things become available again. the acquisition of which will take time to build and move to locations, which may take months if not seeded effectively by which time the POS may be out of Fuel. so In WH the std Customs offices Must remain for a Viable period to allow for the complex problems accociated with WH life. |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 12:11:00 -
[1531] - Quote
C'mon Nullabor, think this through. Simplest solution would be to leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (I like that better than POCO) is present. Hell just make some kind of isPcoPresent flag and allow or deny access based on that. If there's a PCO, you need to use that to connect to the launchpads. If not, the customs office is accessible and connects to the launch pads. Even if this is only for a three to six month transitionary period it prevents the crippling effects simply removing the customs offices will have. Forget about what you "expect" the players to do. Since when do they do that anyhow? Look at what's really happening in the game. Then step back and look at it from a broader perspective, not just that of a dev on the PI team.
The biggest thing you do with leaving customs offices in place as described is basically save low sec PI by giving hogh sec people something to fight for... namely access to low sec planets that corporations either set up a PCO as a denial of access tactic or set up at an exhorborant tax rate. People in high sec will have a reason to head into low and blow the PCOs to hell, allowing themselves access to the customs office until such a time as they can plant one of their own or someone does at a tax rate the high sec folks find worth paying.
You know this makes sense.
Wormholes also benefit nicely from this method... PCOs can be brought in as needed rather than making them a requirement to get immediately or their fuel supply is shut off. You're putting too much control over wormhole living in the hands of people you "expect" to be offering the BPCs on the market. I'm sure there will be at first, but the prices will be crippling... this is Eve, that's what people do. This chatter you're seeing about 'just using the launchpads'... look at the volumes of stuff moved in wormhole PI and you'll be forced to admit that's a load of crap, even if you're using that as an escape to convince yourselves you're not really breaking the system.
These PCOs have a lot of potential, they really do. But you're also seeing a lot of potential issues. It's far more important... or at least it should be... to introduce these in a way that benefits the game as a whole instead of focusing on a timeline. There needs to be a gradualness built in that allows the majority to absorb the impact relatively painlessly. One really bad decision that breaks a significant part of the game for a lot of people can easily overshadow for those people some of the great things coming at the same time.
Try and look at it from the perspective of someone actually in the game, not of that as someone that designed the system and has an emotional attachment to the initial design. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 12:33:00 -
[1532] - Quote
The simplest solution for the anchoring issue is going to be:
- Force the POCO to anchor at the locations of the existing customs office grids.
- If there is a POCO anchored and online, then that customs office beacon should show up in the overview.
- No customs office anchored? Then you should only be able to get to that location by using the right-click menu.
OTOH, I can see reasons why to do away with the 2nd warp-in point for planets:
- Probably makes coding easier rather then fixing the overview code to show or not show the customs office locations depending on whether they have something anchored or not.
- Gives more of a purpose to the planet's warp-in grid.
Either way, as long as the POCO is forced to anchor in the middle of the grid (just like POS towers), that will avoid most exploits. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 13:40:00 -
[1533] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:... leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (...) is present. ... If you do that then there is a lot less incentive to build or destroy PCO's. It would make the expansion as worhtless as Incarna. CCP won't do that. At best they will let the sale of CO BPCs to the general public start some time before actually removing them. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 13:49:00 -
[1534] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:... leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (...) is present. ... If you do that then there is a lot less incentive to build or destroy PCO's. It would make the expansion as worhtless as Incarna. CCP won't do that. At best they will let the sale of CO BPCs to the general public start some time before actually removing them.
I disagree... but then again, this isn't an expansion in and of itself, it's a PI change. If they're designed well and worth using, people will. If people don't then the question needs to be asked "why not?". Did they fail to make them cost efficient enough for people to even want them? Is the storage space too small, making the customs office more efficient? Are they simply too much of a pain in the ass to be worthwhile, or do they actually fail to provide anything of value to PI over the regular customs offices.
If they build something good enough, people will want them and will implement them. If they turn out to be PI breaking pieces of crap, and they implement them in a way that pretty well breaks people's PI for a significant period of time (as the current method promises to do), they'll push people away from PI, bork up the market for all PI goods and have disgruntled a significant portion of the playerbase.
You could keep the customs offices in play for three to six months in null sec and wormhole space to give fair time to transition over. That would be significant enough to ease the pain and allow the market to fully absorb any negative impacts the "cold turkey" approach will have. I'd defintiely leave customs offices in low sec however... it gives high sec people a reason to fight for their PI, especially those that prefer to remain in npc corps. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 15:26:00 -
[1535] - Quote
Joshua Aivoras wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch.
Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats? You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea. Not at all... However, that is high volume production, and admittedly was not the focus on my statement. Regardless, because you only need be in system, and uncloaked, to launch a rocket, as well as the fact that P2 processors even doubled up can only produce 480 units per day: What are the Planetary Commodity quantities needed on a Large Tower for 1 day (Caldari at full CPU and PG usage, for example only): Enriched Uranium - 96 Oxygen - 600 Mechanical Parts - 120 Coolant - 192 Robotics - 24 So, while you have to be quiet the sadist, it is possible, though highly inefficient, to use Command Center rocket launches with out a PCO. What this means is that, in the case of WH Space, if a PCO was 'good time fun' ganked just to grief the WH occupants, that P1 and P2 production of Planetary Commodities is feasible. At least and until a new PCO can be built and anchored. As for robotics, the maximum capacity in a Large Tower is 27 days and 3 hrs worth, which is only 651 units. So if the tower is fully fueled, even if there is no PCO available it is possilbe to do daily or every two day launches of P1 and P2 for a month, before you run out of robotics. That's plenty of time to get another PCO requisitioned, built, and anchored before the POS runs out of robotics fuel. So again, you'd have to be a sadist to want to run a POS solely off of rocket launches of P1 and P2 commodities; however that's not what I'm advocating.... I'm saying for the part time PI Operator, rocket launches can be a inefficient but still viable means of getting P1 and P2 to market. For WH residents, if they ever lost their PCO for making robotics (for example) or other PCO's for large volume planetary commodity production. They could suffice until they were able to re-anchor a PCO. A Pain - ABSOLUTELY... but I'm not trying to say what's good or bad - just what the numbers tell us... and they tell us that with some adjustments we can survive the PCO feature. Haha CCP is gonna read this and go 'yep we're heard enough, LAUNCH THE PCO BPO'S!' 'Also close this thread, it is no longer needed. They'll be fine.'
After a short mail exchange with CCP Phantom regarding the 'issues' list he has compiled, I have confidence that the previous legitimate issues raised in this thread, are going to be seriously deliberated.
Not to mention I haven't stated anything that CCP doesn't already know. However, once they release a new PCO devblog, we can judge how seriously they took our input.
None the less, I still stand by everything I have said previously that I am opposed to or highly concerned about regarding the current iteration of the PCO feature. And do not see my statement as a contradiction; just because something can work doesn't mean it should be left that way.
The focus now should be on the nature of PCO's in Low Sec, and the details associated with the PCO feature; such as P4 Commodity rocket launch capacities, and user interface issues (i.e. Tariff standings issues, etc.) -- I don't think anyone geninuely thinks that WH Space and Null Sec PCO features can be lobbied for any significant or fundamental changes...
Again the lynch pin region to make this feature tolerable 'is' Low Sec... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 15:35:00 -
[1536] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:C'mon Nullabor, think this through. Simplest solution would be to leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (I like that better than POCO) is present. Hell just make some kind of isPcoPresent flag and allow or deny access based on that. If there's a PCO, you need to use that to connect to the launchpads. If not, the customs office is accessible and connects to the launch pads. Even if this is only for a three to six month transitionary period it prevents the crippling effects simply removing the customs offices will have. Forget about what you "expect" the players to do. Since when do they do that anyhow? Look at what's really happening in the game. Then step back and look at it from a broader perspective, not just that of a dev on the PI team.
The biggest thing you do with leaving customs offices in place as described is basically save low sec PI by giving hogh sec people something to fight for... namely access to low sec planets that corporations either set up a PCO as a denial of access tactic or set up at an exhorborant tax rate. People in high sec will have a reason to head into low and blow the PCOs to hell, allowing themselves access to the customs office until such a time as they can plant one of their own or someone does at a tax rate the high sec folks find worth paying.
You know this makes sense.
Wormholes also benefit nicely from this method... PCOs can be brought in as needed rather than making them a requirement to get immediately or their fuel supply is shut off. You're putting too much control over wormhole living in the hands of people you "expect" to be offering the BPCs on the market. I'm sure there will be at first, but the prices will be crippling... this is Eve, that's what people do. This chatter you're seeing about 'just using the launchpads'... look at the volumes of stuff moved in wormhole PI and you'll be forced to admit that's a load of crap, even if you're using that as an escape to convince yourselves you're not really breaking the system.
These PCOs have a lot of potential, they really do. But you're also seeing a lot of potential issues. It's far more important... or at least it should be... to introduce these in a way that benefits the game as a whole instead of focusing on a timeline. There needs to be a gradualness built in that allows the majority to absorb the impact relatively painlessly. One really bad decision that breaks a significant part of the game for a lot of people can easily overshadow for those people some of the great things coming at the same time.
Try and look at it from the perspective of someone actually in the game, not of that as someone that designed the system and has an emotional attachment to the initial design.
I agree PCO's should not be wiped off the server! But there should only be one Custom's Office at any one time.
However, sadly CCP Nullabor only does coding, not design... have to try to get CCP Phantom's or CCP Omen's attention.
Imo, experienced PI Operators should develop legtimate and rational arguements that address issues within the context of the proposed feature, rather than waste their intelectual acumen on irrational arguements that obviously will never be designed and coded for... |
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 17:36:00 -
[1537] - Quote
Matalino wrote:Max O'Deel wrote:POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue). Your corp can tax PI like you would tax rat bounties, or you make PI free for your corp/allies. Either way your corp gets to keep ISK that would otherwise go down a sink. Max O'Deel wrote:POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it. You have 24-47 hours to form your defence. There is little point in defending the POCO before it comes out of reinforcement. You have the defensive advantage with the WH being your home territory while the attackers must setup fresh logistics so that they can attack on two different days. Max O'Deel wrote:POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there. Buy the POCO BPC's through contracts or buy the POCO's from the market. This is the same as any other commodity. There are so many different ways that items are seeded that it is impractical for anyone to get everything they want directly from its source. If the prices for POCO BPC's are "too high", then players will migrate towards running Incursions/Faction Warfare until the price is driven down. This is the same as pirate faction ship BPC's being priced "too high", except that POCO BPC's will be even more accessible and therefore subject to faster price corrections. This change certainly appears to favor W-space over low-sec. Depending on any further revisions, I will be looking at relocating my low-sec PI operations to W-space.
I thought so from your comments you have never owned or managed a POS in WH space, from your attitude and comments you have little or poor concept of the mechanics involved in operating one in that environment. If you had you would not be so stupid in commenting on the BPC aspect as you did. 1st BPC seeded to market (NOT BPO note) qty of runs per copy still not defined, TIME needed to acquire said BPC then Build time Material acquisition time Logistics time to access and move to a WH some very expensive and initially desirable stuff. All the while your POS is eating fuel you can no longer produce.
If I took your car off you one day then the next said ah you can go find a Blue Print and a Manual to make one it might cost you 20 or 30 grand then go buy the parts you need to make your new car, and when you have done that you have to haul it through war torn Afghanistan to get it home safe And if youGÇÖre not back home in time I destroy your home because your cant fuel your house, I am sure you and your family will be ecstatic. I am sure you can now see the analogy, and your sad comment.
2nd when you live in a WH the thing closes after a period of time and an exit has to be rescanned from the INSIDE this often leads simply to another WH and another or LOW sec or NULL sec. Where they, in my experience are occupied by very unfriendly guys bent on protecting their assets (quite rightly so, same as we do) and they take very unkindly to strangers suddenly appearing and treat them as a threat (shoot first ask questions later) not very useful to you getting your 500mils worth of POCO's in to your own WH of course there is a 30/40% chance of a hisec access usually via one or more occupied WH,s and more often than not we found them to be on average 12 to 27 jumps from a home empire station. So with no way to predict where in EVE it will exit to you cannot plan to have the stuff nearby.
3rd POS,s run on fuel when it runs out they are dead yes we keep a stock in reserve as most sensible folks do however that can only last a finite time if you cannot replace those reserves fast enough. BPC's which will be stupidly priced perhaps for some 3-6 months may be beyond the reach of the smaller corps to obtain and in time to save their POS, s. NOT all corps out there are Mega ones that are super rich and have membership overflow, some are small guys who have invested allot of isk, to try and make a go of it and are swept aside by a good concept not thought out fully. I invite you to go buy you tower set it up with perhaps a 3 to 4 hundred mills ISK worth of wepons and other modules you will need, drag say 4 mates in with you to manage a C4 WH youv'e just discovered haul your fuel in make sure you donGÇÖt exceed the mass of th WH entrance exit doing all that, oh and donGÇÖt forget good scanning ships a couple of alts to stay in it if and when you go out, plus PVP and other ships. THEN tell me you think POCO's as they are going to be in WH at SUCH SHORT NOTICE is a good idea. so until then STFU.
I say again the concept is a good one it is just not thought out correctly. as it applies to WH space. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 17:54:00 -
[1538] - Quote
Max O'Deel wrote: I say again the concept is a good one it is just not thought out correctly. as it applies to WH space.
Remove the POCOs, but increase the command center launch capability by 25% for every level trained in Command Center Upgrades.
Or just make the higher variants of the Command Center hold more and be able to launch more at the same time:
Level 0 CC - 500 m3 Level 1 CC - 750 m3 Level 3 CC - 1000 m3 Level 4 CC - 1500 m3 Level 5 CC - 2000 m3
(I don't think you should go much above 2000 m3. for the top level. And frankly, the level V command center should have a good bit more CPU/PG then it does now to pay for that long training time.) |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 18:02:00 -
[1539] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Max O'Deel wrote: I say again the concept is a good one it is just not thought out correctly. as it applies to WH space.
Remove the POCOs, but increase the command center launch capability by 25% for every level trained in Command Center Upgrades. Or just make the higher variants of the Command Center hold more and be able to launch more at the same time: Level 0 CC - 500 m3 Level 1 CC - 750 m3 Level 3 CC - 1000 m3 Level 4 CC - 1500 m3 Level 5 CC - 2000 m3 (I don't think you should go much above 2000 m3. for the top level. And frankly, the level V command center should have a good bit more CPU/PG then it does now to pay for that long training time.)
Ugh... my own person experience shows that even the 2000m3 is insufficient. Besides, it's not practical to rely on the command center for storage... they rarely remain connected to the rest of the PI network. Most often, when the resources deplete in one area you move the netowrk aroudn the planet while the command center remains where it was established.
(Also a reason against relying on them for launching... they're not attached or near the PI network.) Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 19:09:00 -
[1540] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Max O'Deel wrote: I say again the concept is a good one it is just not thought out correctly. as it applies to WH space.
Remove the POCOs, but increase the command center launch capability by 25% for every level trained in Command Center Upgrades. Or just make the higher variants of the Command Center hold more and be able to launch more at the same time: Level 0 CC - 500 m3 Level 1 CC - 750 m3 Level 3 CC - 1000 m3 Level 4 CC - 1500 m3 Level 5 CC - 2000 m3 (I don't think you should go much above 2000 m3. for the top level. And frankly, the level V command center should have a good bit more CPU/PG then it does now to pay for that long training time.)
My position remains 500m3 after LVL 2 per level of Command Center Upgrades - most will not train beyond four still allowing 2000m3 capacity. Those that will/ have trained LVL 5 more than likely are P4 producers and should be able to launch 24hrs worth of P4 Commodities.
My personal feeling is launch capacity should be limited to Advanced Commodities planets, however I wouldn't complain in the least if it was extended to all planets. |
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 19:10:00 -
[1541] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Max O'Deel wrote: I say again the concept is a good one it is just not thought out correctly. as it applies to WH space.
Remove the POCOs, but increase the command center launch capability by 25% for every level trained in Command Center Upgrades. Or just make the higher variants of the Command Center hold more and be able to launch more at the same time: Level 0 CC - 500 m3 Level 1 CC - 750 m3 Level 3 CC - 1000 m3 Level 4 CC - 1500 m3 Level 5 CC - 2000 m3 (I don't think you should go much above 2000 m3. for the top level. And frankly, the level V command center should have a good bit more CPU/PG then it does now to pay for that long training time.)
My position remains 500m3 after LVL 2 per level of Command Center Upgrades - most will not train beyond four still allowing 2000m3 capacity. Those that will/ have trained LVL 5 more than likely are P4 producers and should be able to launch 24hrs worth of P4 Commodities.
My personal feeling is launch capacity should be limited to Advanced Commodities planets, however I wouldn't complain in the least if it was extended to all planets. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.28 20:48:00 -
[1542] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: Ugh... my own person experience shows that even the 2000m3 is insufficient. Besides, it's not practical to rely on the command center for storage... they rarely remain connected to the rest of the PI network. Most often, when the resources deplete in one area you move the netowrk aroudn the planet while the command center remains where it was established.
(Also a reason against relying on them for launching... they're not attached or near the PI network.)
That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center.
(I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.) |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 00:00:00 -
[1543] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Ugh... my own person experience shows that even the 2000m3 is insufficient. Besides, it's not practical to rely on the command center for storage... they rarely remain connected to the rest of the PI network. Most often, when the resources deplete in one area you move the netowrk aroudn the planet while the command center remains where it was established.
(Also a reason against relying on them for launching... they're not attached or near the PI network.)
That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center. (I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.)
the cc dosnt have to be linked to teh storage(launchpad) to put stuff in it does it? i thought it was that experdite transfer thing that teleported it there.
if you do have to link it, the cc should be movible as that was designed when the resorses didnt move all over the planet, like the pi mark2 now does brings me back to pi should be redone compleatly before you add more dull stuff to it, just imo ofc CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 02:48:00 -
[1544] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Ugh... my own person experience shows that even the 2000m3 is insufficient. Besides, it's not practical to rely on the command center for storage... they rarely remain connected to the rest of the PI network. Most often, when the resources deplete in one area you move the netowrk aroudn the planet while the command center remains where it was established.
(Also a reason against relying on them for launching... they're not attached or near the PI network.)
That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center. (I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.) the cc dosnt have to be linked to teh storage(launchpad) to put stuff in it does it? i thought it was that experdite transfer thing that teleported it there. if you do have to link it, the cc should be movible as that was designed when the resorses didnt move all over the planet, like the pi mark2 now does brings me back to pi should be redone compleatly before you add more dull stuff to it, just imo ofc
You can only expedite transfer via 'LINKS' - so if there is no link to the Command Center then your SOL...
CCP is not going to make the CC installation movable - that's a consequential choice to unlink it - and as cheap as CC's are, decommissioning a colony isn't the end of the world if you need to make a strategic redeployment of your CC/ Colony |
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 04:08:00 -
[1545] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
a. You need to restrict this to nullsec k and wh space planets and offer defensive capabilities in the form of anchorable deterrent with a cost:protection ratio favourable to the volume of profit/s goods b. There needs to be far greater expanse to PI as a whole to draw people to it.
I'd start by getting rid of tech moons or nerfing them horribly and putting those resources in planets. The rest is academic, and DUST provides the punch for that.
The proposal currently on the table is needlessly complex, completely unoroginal (ie it recycles old code and adds nothing new ergo no value to the game) and has been proven, incontrovertably, over almost a decade, to be of little interest to players. POS bashing has never been a prime mover socially or economically. As a sov mechanic it barely functioned and as an economic conflict driver it is mooted by all your other broken ass game mehanics and balancing.
The fact there are a far greater ratio of griefers:creators/builders/entrepenerial squits in this mmo should be a titanic shadow cast over every single proposal.
I left off a 5. on that previous post btw for my design conditions: 5. Will this, through effect of resonance, cause us to drop net subscribed accounts?
You're going to lose my two PI accounts .. I hope you can say with certainty I will be replaced by new or expansive griefer subs. I know my t2 ammo won't be. But my bile on this one isn't about me or the impact your changes will have on me. Frankly I was bored of PI anyway after a little over 3 months. As our friend above points out - there's just loads of quicker, easier, less tedious and less risky ways to make 400m in 30 days.
|
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 05:55:00 -
[1546] - Quote
Quote: CCP Omen- "EVE Online should not be about bowing to NPC authority, it should be about player-to-player interactions"
Does that mean with certain Skills and Uber Sec Status, WE can work for Concord and be "Space Police" working along side Concord to deal with "Law Breakers"?
Maybe be given a special Concord Implant that improves Weapon/Ship skills/abilities...etc.
Just make it extremely hard to join, and extremely easy to get kicked! ( a must is 9.5 Sec with State + Pirateless history vs When a single Concord employment rule is broken: Insta-pop to loose implant + an insta -0.9 Sec)
That would stir things up!
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 06:27:00 -
[1547] - Quote
Phantomania wrote:Quote: CCP Omen- "EVE Online should not be about bowing to NPC authority, it should be about player-to-player interactions" Does that mean with certain Skills and Uber Sec Status, WE can work for Concord and be "Space Police" working along side Concord to deal with "Law Breakers"? Maybe be given a special Concord Implant that improves Weapon/Ship skills/abilities...etc. Just make it extremely hard to join, and extremely easy to get kicked! ( a must is 9.5 Sec with State + Pirateless history vs When a single Concord employment rule is broken: Insta-pop to loose implant + an insta -0.9 Sec) That would stir things up!
/crickets
And now returning to your regularly scheduled program. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
55
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 10:34:00 -
[1548] - Quote
I like the idea of improving the ability of the 'good guys' to play space police. This can deter law breakers, including people that choose to agress COs (without wardec), or attack their users. In lowsec I want to be warned of the presence of a criminal in space with GCC and I want an option to rightclick in space and warp straight to him, perhaps even with a bonus on alignment and warp speed. |
Unius Elgen
United Conglomerate of Independant Anus Holes
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 11:00:00 -
[1549] - Quote
Seems complex. I just enjoy doing missions. To each their own. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 11:01:00 -
[1550] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Ugh... my own person experience shows that even the 2000m3 is insufficient. Besides, it's not practical to rely on the command center for storage... they rarely remain connected to the rest of the PI network. Most often, when the resources deplete in one area you move the netowrk aroudn the planet while the command center remains where it was established.
(Also a reason against relying on them for launching... they're not attached or near the PI network.)
That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center. (I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.) the cc dosnt have to be linked to teh storage(launchpad) to put stuff in it does it? i thought it was that experdite transfer thing that teleported it there. if you do have to link it, the cc should be movible as that was designed when the resorses didnt move all over the planet, like the pi mark2 now does brings me back to pi should be redone compleatly before you add more dull stuff to it, just imo ofc You can only expedite transfer via 'LINKS' - so if there is no link to the Command Center then your SOL... CCP is not going to make the CC installation movable - that's a consequential choice to unlink it - and as cheap as CC's are, decommissioning a colony isn't the end of the world if you need to make a strategic redeployment of your CC/ Colony
not the end of the world, just a total pain in the arse waste of time, effort and isk. pi as a whole needs reworking imo to not be a ballache, then tack the dust eve link on. CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
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Solar Wander
5th Front enterprises Nulli Tertius
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 11:21:00 -
[1551] - Quote
Well from reading the lastest propoganda release, CCP seem intend to push on with this crazy decision . So much for the CEO staying they made mistakes by not listerning to their player base. HELLO DEV's it's time to actually pay more than lip service. Want to compromise; how about making theses changes in WH or 0.0 space see how it goes and then come back to us. Don't run rough shod over us once again. The many people who have posted here have some litgitamite concerns. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 16:22:00 -
[1552] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Ugh... my own person experience shows that even the 2000m3 is insufficient. Besides, it's not practical to rely on the command center for storage... they rarely remain connected to the rest of the PI network. Most often, when the resources deplete in one area you move the netowrk aroudn the planet while the command center remains where it was established.
(Also a reason against relying on them for launching... they're not attached or near the PI network.)
That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center. (I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.) the cc dosnt have to be linked to teh storage(launchpad) to put stuff in it does it? i thought it was that experdite transfer thing that teleported it there. if you do have to link it, the cc should be movible as that was designed when the resorses didnt move all over the planet, like the pi mark2 now does brings me back to pi should be redone compleatly before you add more dull stuff to it, just imo ofc You can only expedite transfer via 'LINKS' - so if there is no link to the Command Center then your SOL... CCP is not going to make the CC installation movable - that's a consequential choice to unlink it - and as cheap as CC's are, decommissioning a colony isn't the end of the world if you need to make a strategic redeployment of your CC/ Colony not the end of the world, just a total pain in the arse waste of time, effort and isk. pi as a whole needs reworking imo to not be a ballache, then tack the dust eve link on.
Nothing to disagree with here - but ultimately it's hard to get perspective on the overall design intentions without having had the larger picture presented to us by CCP.
Other than THIS, PI is working for me right now... but I run my PI on an equilibrium basis (only extracting a slight bit more than what I need to feed the processor system)
I wonder if after this feature, Team Pi will be continuing work on refining PI in general? |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 17:25:00 -
[1553] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: I wonder if after this feature, Team Pi will be continuing work on refining PI in general?
Given that it's completely tied in with Dust, and given that we'll need something to defend our colonies from console kiddies, one would very much hope so. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 17:39:00 -
[1554] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: I wonder if after this feature, Team Pi will be continuing work on refining PI in general?
Given that it's completely tied in with Dust, and given that we'll need something to defend our colonies from console kiddies, one would very much hope so. I very much doubt Dust guys will attack colonies. All the news from Dust say it's based on corps, and CCP has not moved away from the "colonies for players not corps" idea.
My own guess is that CCP will introduce a surface counterpart to the customs office, and Dust bunnies will fight over those. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 19:40:00 -
[1555] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:rootimus maximus wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: I wonder if after this feature, Team Pi will be continuing work on refining PI in general?
Given that it's completely tied in with Dust, and given that we'll need something to defend our colonies from console kiddies, one would very much hope so. I very much doubt Dust guys will attack colonies. All the news from Dust say it's based on corps, and CCP has not moved away from the "colonies for players not corps" idea. My own guess is that CCP will introduce a surface counterpart to the customs office, and Dust bunnies will fight over those.
except yourll need corp rolls to anchour the planety things, and they will be corp assests CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Zhan Kor
Core Systems Astronautics
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 20:19:00 -
[1556] - Quote
Really? :( What about player griefing? Are you guys really that foolish? If I've got resources coming off a planet in low-sec, which by the way, has the greatest resource potential, some player belonging to a more powerful corp is gonna to jump anyone just because they're around. Basically the strong picking on the weak, and the wonderful developers at CCP think that makes us one big happy family; that it's part of the "EVE experience..." The veterans of EVE ought to be out there looking to help newer players not only getting acclimated but peek in to see how they are doing now and again... make sure they're not getting gang-banged by a bunch of pirates looking for a quicky. LOOK CCP, if want consumer loyalty and finally profitability to be associted AT ALL with EVE, than you need to slow down on thinking all about the "experience" and let people just play the game. Also change some the High-sec space dynamics by putting some resource-rich planets in high-sec space too. I'm barely getting my space legs on mainly because of planetary interaction. I feel like I'm slow motion trying avoid a kick to the groin, but I can see that I'm not moving fast enough. Can you visualize that CCP? Can you visualize that Mr. CEO? you just said you wouldn't just ramrod things on to the EVE population. So much for assurances from High Command...where he stumbles, we must all follow. |
Pamela Zolo
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 20:28:00 -
[1557] - Quote
This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...
Well...
I am against the change in low sec...
Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 22:07:00 -
[1558] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:rootimus maximus wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: I wonder if after this feature, Team Pi will be continuing work on refining PI in general?
Given that it's completely tied in with Dust, and given that we'll need something to defend our colonies from console kiddies, one would very much hope so. I very much doubt Dust guys will attack colonies. All the news from Dust say it's based on corps, and CCP has not moved away from the "colonies for players not corps" idea. My own guess is that CCP will introduce a surface counterpart to the customs office, and Dust bunnies will fight over those.
This is very plausible given the structures being attacked in the DUST 514: E3 2011 video are not PI Colonies - but instead, in addition to the planetary side of the Orbital Elevator, other unidentified control structures seem to be in play as well - and could indeed be corp based installations for planetary control?
Good call Jack. |
Yekster
GLOBEX.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 02:58:00 -
[1559] - Quote
Sorry in advance for not reading all 80 pages of this post.
What is the proposed skill level of Anchoring required to drop a Customs Office? |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 03:28:00 -
[1560] - Quote
Yekster wrote:Sorry in advance for not reading all 80 pages of this post.
What is the proposed skill level of Anchoring required to drop a Customs Office?
Not stated, but the assumption is that you would need the same skills needed to anchor a POS tower (along with the proper roles).
|
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Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
82
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 07:25:00 -
[1561] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Max O'Deel wrote:So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters. POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue).
POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it.
POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there. I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec.
Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them.
Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved. POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active. We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand.
Yet again it appear that you have not listened to a single ******* thing that has been said here, nor do you intend to.
History lesson; this is exactly how PI was rolled out in the first place. And that was so ******* terrible (even by CCP standards) that you had to spend another iteration fixing it to the point where it was no longer terrible, just mearly rubbish.
edit: Can't wait for your blog describing the "...wonderful, exciting, great...." changes your going to make. I swear you'll be able to hear me scream all the way in ******* Iceland. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
173
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 08:37:00 -
[1562] - Quote
When Henry Ford was asked about consumer wishes.. He replied "If I had asked what consumers wanted, they would have said "a faster horse".
|
Silva Krell
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 10:11:00 -
[1563] - Quote
I see that 'The hanger on space ports is gone'
However I see that in the picture just above that quote in your dev blog the space port still have 10k storage. To confirm were you just talking about the interface? Will space ports still beable to store 10k m3?
Also station manager is too important a role. I think there should be a different/new role for customs offices as some corps won't want to give out station manager roles for this.
Finally the reinforement timer is too short. Should be 2 days at least for structure that will cost about 100 mil, or you should have the option to build a stronger CO with a longer timer. It will be far too easy to grief destroy these things atm. |
Gingys Han
EVE Research Nulla Clementia
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 14:45:00 -
[1564] - Quote
All offices should be conquerable from NPC and when they exit reinforcement in 0.1 - 0.4 space a COCORD fleet should be there to defent it and players within range with positive standing and no pirateing activity should be notified with a special mission to join forces. If they lose it then it can be replaced with a player owned office and from time to time CONCORD should try to gain control over it again informing players with that special mission.
The reward should be LP points or standing towards the faction that sent out the troops.
That would be more fair IMHO. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 16:18:00 -
[1565] - Quote
Gingys Han wrote:All offices should be conquerable from NPC and when they exit reinforcement in 0.1 - 0.4 space a COCORD fleet should be there to defent it and players within range with positive standing and no pirateing activity should be notified with a special mission to join forces. If they lose it then it can be replaced with a player owned office and from time to time CONCORD should try to gain control over it again informing players with that special mission.
The reward should be LP points or standing towards the faction that sent out the troops.
That would be more fair IMHO.
*facepalm |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
227
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 19:27:00 -
[1566] - Quote
Pamela Zolo wrote:This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...
Well...
I am against the change in low sec...
Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...
Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets.
C.
|
Cantabar
Homocidal Pacifists LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 20:10:00 -
[1567] - Quote
I think it would be amazing if you could tax a percentage of materials instead of taxing using isk.
Ex. Tax rate = 10% Enriched Uranium exported = 100 units Tax = 10 units of EU
Just a thought. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 20:50:00 -
[1568] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Pamela Zolo wrote:This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...
Well...
I am against the change in low sec...
Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...
Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets. C.
well unles low sec pi gets a buff( the amounts are bad in 0.4-0.2) there will still be no economic reasons to fight for the right to pi/deploy planet things.
i do hate to bang on, but revist pi and then when thats not a pile of ****, look at this addition CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 21:10:00 -
[1569] - Quote
Pamela Zolo wrote:This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...
Well...
I am against the change in low sec...
Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...
CCP's concept of these is a lot more suited to lowsec (and, incidentally, highsec) than to sov 0.0. They want you to get income from strangers using your planet. But in sov 0.0 there are no strangers, only alliance grunts, renters and hostiles. In empire you have many different corps and alliances living in close proximity, using the same resources, but not necessarily being aware of each other. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
gfldex
361
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 21:27:00 -
[1570] - Quote
So lets see a little further down the road. COs in lowsec went wrong because a) there is not enough tax generated per individual colony and b) smallish empire corps don't want to protect COs all over the map.
How about allowing more then 1 Command Center per planet in lowsec? I'm a big fan of the vast networks one can build in openttd. It's a little saddening that you can't do that in EVE. With combining the power of 6 CCs on a single planet you could. On top of that the output per single planet could greatly increase and thus the export tax would raise.
There is a trap for the greedy in there as well. If you put all your eggs into the same basket it's more likely somebody wants to stomp it. You depends more on other players via the market or your corp if you want to make POS fuel. What can go either way.
This change might enrich PI more then the introduction of ECUs did. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.30 23:19:00 -
[1571] - Quote
Allowing more then one POCO per planet:
- No more need to interact with other players in order to claim the planet. This goes against the stated goal of encouraging conflict.
- Spreads the revenue per POCO out even more, which makes the economic situation even worse.
If you want the planet's revenue, then you have to place and defend your own POCO (just like any moon's resources). Or you have to cooperate with other players. Or smuggle stuff out using the command center launches (with the higher tariffs and limited launch capability). |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 00:10:00 -
[1572] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Cailais wrote:Pamela Zolo wrote:This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?...
Well...
I am against the change in low sec...
Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months...
Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets. C. well unles low sec pi gets a buff( the amounts are bad in 0.4-0.2) there will still be no economic reasons to fight for the right to pi/deploy planet things. i do hate to bang on, but revist pi and then when thats not a pile of ****, look at this addition
It's pure speculation, but with the increased bandwidth, it seems reasonable that CCP would tweak the P0 planetary consentration spawns?
Again pure speculation - maybe Team Pi could weigh in on whether or not P0 spawns are being increased commensurate with the increased link bandwidth? |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 12:09:00 -
[1573] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center.
(I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.)
Choice? You ever do PI before? It's not a choice, it's a necessity. Unless you're running some scrawny-assed mini-network you'll be having to chase the resources around the planet. This will require you to move your network around. I don't know of anyone that puts anything resembling effort into their PI that hasn't had this issue.
This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 14:55:00 -
[1574] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:You ever do PI before?
+1. And this question could be asked to so many people posting on this thread, who obviously do NOT know anything about PI but probably just argue to get more greiffing targets or to push their huge alliances interests over the top (I even read some want to suppress storage in spaceports, only somebody who does not know what serious PI is could say such stupidity).
79 pages of discussion and we still have the same result : This project is not mature. Obviously CCP did NOT make ANY accurate analysis before bringing this on the forum. The only analysis made was maybe, surely, "let us kill PI for a maximum number of players this might make more PLEXes buyers".
At the same time, a single look to the crazy rise of all PI components, specially POS fuel and Tier4 components, since POCOs are discuted here, is far enough to understand what will happen, because it allready happens and this is not just speculation :
- POS fuel cost +60 % - building caps or stations + 35 %
You are single player in NPC corp ? Forget about PI You are small corporation ( less than 50 players) ? Forget about PI you wont be able to protect your POCOs You are small alliance (less than 400 players) and want to build caps or station in a sov ? Just forget it or accept twice price. You are CCP and want more players ? LOL ! Might have a very bad surprise : maybe numerous players could be fed up to be just considered as the paying pigs. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 15:35:00 -
[1575] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: Choice? You ever do PI before? It's not a choice, it's a necessity. Unless you're running some scrawny-assed mini-network you'll be having to chase the resources around the planet. This will require you to move your network around. I don't know of anyone that puts anything resembling effort into their PI that hasn't had this issue.
This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain.
Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about.
If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract.
Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day.
Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO).
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 16:05:00 -
[1576] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about.
If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract.
Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day.
Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO).
I tend to move once every four to six weeks. Hardly a "hot spot of the day" thing. Still, it only takes once and you're no longer connected to the command post. These worlmole planets hold up quite well for a good period of time, but not forever at any one location. So, based on my PI levels and how well I can maximize extraction --> P1 conversion per planets, there are periodic moves required.
You sure you manage a few dozen planets? You should know something so basic. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 16:26:00 -
[1577] - Quote
How will this affect PI? Let's go down the list. First I'll go over the different impacts based on security of the system, then I'll go over how it relates to PI as a whole.
Highsec PI: It already has a very low yield for extractors, which in turn makes the return on your time very low. Increased export tax will further reduce these already low margins, to the point of being a pure waste of time, rather than just mostly a waste of time.
Lowsec PI: Some of these planets have the same poor resources as highsec. Others are a little better. On the ones that are poor, nobody uses them. People go to highsec or find a better planet. On the ones that are better, a command center is not a feasible option for getting goods off the planet. Moving colonies or not, a command center doesn't have the space to support any meaningful deployment of goods. With the limits of expedited transfers, it effectively restricts the amount that can be launched to that timer. There are ways around this with lowsec planets, by routing the final product directly to the command center for instance, but this would require being in system far more often to launch, since you can't launch without being in space and in system.
Nulsec PI: This shares the same problem that the better planets of lowsec have. Resources are easier to get, so the overall output is going to be even higher. Command center launches and expedited transfers will simply not keep up. Only the launchpad has the space to store products between launches, unless you're launching several times a day, and the only way to get things from a launchpad into space is through the customs office. This will leave people with two options. First, they can launch from the command center several times a day. Second, they can put up a defenseless structure (ohboy, -more- reinforcement timers, just what people want).
Wormhole PI: Like nulsec, but worse. People living in WH space already have the logistical nightmare of being isolated. This will make it harder to get and manufacture a player owned customs office. Resources are so common on WH planets that even launchpads have trouble keeping up without multiple launches a day, or multiple launchpads. With the only option of using a command center, though, it becomes literally impossible. A single command center is all the planet will ever have, and it simply cannot keep up with the production capabilities of a WH planet.
PI as a whole: PI was implemented as something everyone could do. It allowed anyone, with just a little investment of SP, to put down a command center and poke away at it. Everyone can do PI right now. If this new POCO goes through, it will severely restrict who can do PI. Only those with the logistical backing of a large alliance will be able to place and defend POCOs, effectively removing all solo- and small-scale-PI from nulsec and WH space. Structures do not drive conflict. People do. Removing people from nul and WH is a great way to kill any conflict in EVE.
The rest of EVE: Making PI restrictive, in any way shape or form, will only serve to further increase the costs of running a POS, regardless of where you run it. In highsec, this means less invention. In WH, fewer corps able to maintain a presence, thus forcing them out of WH space. In nulsec, fewer active towers, less things being done with them, fewer supplies of moon goo (further increased T2 prices), fewer caps being made (decreased prices of basic minerals, such as tritanium), and all in all a massive blow to the EVE economy. Structures don't drive the economy. Structures don't drive conflict. People, who find the game entertaining, who want to spend time shooting each other, who want to make lots of isk selling their mining yield, who want to attack the Uni-Blob(tm)... People are the drivers of EVE.
Don't shut out the people, CCP. Listen to everyone, like you said you would. Don't blindly push forward an idea that isn't going to work. We, the players of EVE, are here, watching, and willing to help. Let us help make EVE better, for everyone.
~Ceru
PS; If you really want to get greedy, there's a great way to keep people playing the game, and paying for it. Make EVE better. Listen to the people who pay you. The happier we are, the more you make. |
Potato IQ
Doomheim
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 16:52:00 -
[1578] - Quote
gfldex wrote: b) smallish empire corps don't want to protect COs all over the map
Then they donGÇÖt have the right to the better yields. IGÇÖve never been a LS resident, but wouldnGÇÖt this promote organized corps/alliances and enable that which is supposed to be difficult to come by, namely PvP. And all over the map is exaggerated. It may lead to pockets of GÇÿcontrolledGÇÖ systems, which again, should be a positive move for corp/alliance turf wars
Ingvar Angst wrote:This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain.
If POCOGÇÖs encourage gangs to come and destroy them, then I have to disagree. Mass restrictions make BS use tough, hence an ideal use for the new T3 BCGÇÖs (coincidence) with support. Losing PI goods for fleet battles is an easy price to pay
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 18:32:00 -
[1579] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain.
If POCOGÇÖs encourage gangs to come and destroy them, then I have to disagree. Mass restrictions make BS use tough, hence an ideal use for the new T3 BCGÇÖs (coincidence) with support. Losing PI goods for fleet battles is an easy price to pay [/quote]
But... it won't. It's not worth it. You enter a hole, put the POCOs into reinforced... then leave, because in 16 to 24 hrs max the hole is closing behind you and the rf timer is minimum 24hrs. The residents simply shake their heads, roll their holes when you go and rep things back up. You waste your ammo and time and the residents time, nothing else.
If you're actually invading the hole the POCOs will be the last thing you worry about. They're not a threat and the residents won't be worrying about running PI goods with an invading force in the hole. Once you've evicted the residents... then what? Ooh! I know... let's go waste more ammo and time on the POCOs.
Hurrah.
POCOs are a wasted concept ultimately in wormholes. The time it would take zero tax PI to pay for the costs don't make them worth it, but they'll be necessary evils in order to keep PI functioning.
They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear.
However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to.
Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
227
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 19:45:00 -
[1580] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear.
However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to.
Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins.
In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets.
W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin.
Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish.
C. |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 19:57:00 -
[1581] - Quote
Cailais wrote: In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets.
W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin.
Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish.
C.
Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned.
But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back.
W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 20:08:00 -
[1582] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear.
However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to.
Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins.
In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets. W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin. Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish. C.
the problem with low sec pi is. there is so little differnce from high sec(0.4-0.2) that its not worth the isk/risk/headache setting one up. there are a few planets that are great for a short time, but useless after 1 person has used them for any length of time. you wont get to see the tax cover costs there.
there just isnt enough reasons to set one up in low sec in my view. pos's are just as dull to shoot, but at least there is genrally something with a decent isk value on that moon that you will see a return on inside 30days. with a planet you gotta wait how many months 6/12/18? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 20:18:00 -
[1583] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk.
Most w-space corps that I've talked to are going to put them up - they just wish that they had defenses and they're not looking forward to the logistics of getting them setup initially. After that, they'll probably treat them as a corporate asset like the POS towers, maybe with a low tariff setting to generate a bit of additional rainy day money for their corp.
At least now, the ISK from the tariff fees will be going into corp coffers instead of into an NPC's wallet. |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
227
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 20:34:00 -
[1584] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned.
But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back.
W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk.
In terms of the question of 'how much to tax' we might well see market forces come into play. If the tax rate is too high PI players may well migrate to planets with lower tax demands. Those corps that enforce lockouts will, rather ironically, set themselves up as prime targets for attack - their planets being rather juicy and productive (if self run) or barren of PI structures if left fallow.
POCOs in w space are most likely to be managed by the same players running the PI - but some will see the advantage of pre setting POCOs across w space on the basis that others wont want the hassle (especially if the tax rate is low). A risky investment for sure but its entirely possible. Is it worth blowing up a low tax POCO and then go through the trouble of bringing in your own POCO if someone else has done that for you?
C. |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 22:16:00 -
[1585] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about ....... Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job.
No you dont know what you are talking about. Say "I and my numerous alts manage few dozen PI planets" and you have a chance to be less ridiculous as far as ONE character cant have more than 6 planets, ok ? This is very basic knowledge, "Mister Expert". And someone who says "take 20 % less yeld" makes me laugh, this isn't serious PI, just "oh i dont want to do that job seriously it's too tiring". Spend hours before placing colonies ? Well now i understand why you are totally unable to make serious PI. If you want to give lessons to others, try to know REALLY what you are talking about. You're ready for EveUniversity |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 22:42:00 -
[1586] - Quote
The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog.
They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 23:18:00 -
[1587] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned.
How can you be so certain that there won't be reasonable tax rates?
Quote:But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back.
Fighting back would be what the combat ships are for. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 23:53:00 -
[1588] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote: Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about.
If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract.
Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day.
Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO).
I tend to move once every four to six weeks. Hardly a "hot spot of the day" thing. Still, it only takes once and you're no longer connected to the command post. These worlmole planets hold up quite well for a good period of time, but not forever at any one location. So, based on my PI levels and how well I can maximize extraction --> P1 conversion per planets, there are periodic moves required. You sure you manage a few dozen planets? You should know something so basic.
CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature.
CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said:
Quote: Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.
THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo.
I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 23:58:00 -
[1589] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog.
They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics.
Any idea on the exact LP / ISK cost for the BPC from FW LP Store?? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 00:15:00 -
[1590] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Jack Dant wrote:The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog.
They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics. Any idea on the exact LP / ISK cost for the BPC from FW LP Store?? 3000 LP and I think 10 mil isk (not sure about the isk, going from memory). But I notice there's CONCORD COs all over lowsec, not sure if they are destroyable. Just injected the skills for a dread on sisi, will let you know tomorrow What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
|
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 00:43:00 -
[1591] - Quote
Im just wondering what Idiot will actually use a player Poco in low sec..... Hello look a customer ....... BOOOOOMMM...
HAHAHHA what a carebear quick lets wait on the next one.... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 01:13:00 -
[1592] - Quote
bilingi wrote:Im just wondering what Idiot will actually use a player Poco in low sec..... Hello look a customer ....... BOOOOOMMM... HAHAHHA what a carebear quick lets wait on the next one....
There's nothing I can add to improve upon this... |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 05:57:00 -
[1593] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:bilingi wrote:Im just wondering what Idiot will actually use a player Poco in low sec..... Hello look a customer ....... BOOOOOMMM... HAHAHHA what a carebear quick lets wait on the next one.... There's nothing I can add to improve upon this...
Indeed. His post is utterly beyond help. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 12:19:00 -
[1594] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned. How can you be so certain that there won't be reasonable tax rates? Quote:But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back. Fighting back would be what the combat ships are for.
1. Human nature. You may initially see low tax rates to draw people to the planet by some before raising them, but really... if you're doing PI in low, where the resources are limited, do you really want to make it cheap for others to drain those resources? No. You either cut them off or jack up the rates. If their entire assumption is that corps will plant these and be kind and gentle overlords... well, it appears CCP doesn't know their own game, and that's scary.
2. Fighting back... there's no reason for high sec PI folks to fight back once these things are implemented as originally stated. What for? If you're in an NPC corp, as many are, you can't plant your own. However, if you leave the customs offices in place, then high sec folks can opt to destroy the offensive POCOs and regain full access to their PI.
It's pitifully sad CCP is ignoring these issues though while those looking to abuse the system (or that have no horse in the race and simply will laugh at the griefing) blow sunshine up their arses. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 12:20:00 -
[1595] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature. CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said: Quote: Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo. I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel...
They already have coded for the PI power users. Otherwise there wouldn't be any. They're potentially breaking an established paradigm. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 17:33:00 -
[1596] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature. CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said: Quote: Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo. I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel... They already have coded for the PI power users. Otherwise there wouldn't be any. They're potentially breaking an established paradigm.
Wow.
80 pages and several weeks later, and you're still just upset that CCP is changing things? "Breaking an established paradigm"?
Yes, CCP is moving your cheese. Get over the angst Mr. Angst.
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 17:48:00 -
[1597] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature. CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said: Quote: Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo. I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel... They already have coded for the PI power users. Otherwise there wouldn't be any. They're potentially breaking an established paradigm.
There is no potential about it, they are breaking an established paradigm.
With that said, what is at issue is the paradigm they are shifting to... a paradigm shift that needs to be critiqued by the community to ensure its the 'right' paradigm shift.
So when I say they will not code for power users, you've misunderstood my meaning:
They will not modify their paradigm shift to cater to power users, as the current paradigm is being broken in favor of a new PCO-centric paradigm.
So arguing about maintaining a paradigm that will not be maintained, is a waste of time.
What will be productive, will be approaching CCP with reasonable arguments that attempt to alter their theoretical paradigm vision to a realistic and practical one that actually fits real game play dynamics.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 17:50:00 -
[1598] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:
Yes, CCP is moving your cheese. Get over the angst Mr. Angst.
I c wat U did thar!! |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 18:26:00 -
[1599] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
There is no potential about it, they are breaking an established paradigm.
With that said, what is at issue is the paradigm they are shifting to... a paradigm shift that needs to be critiqued by the community to ensure its the 'right' paradigm shift.
So when I say they will not code for power users, you've misunderstood my meaning:
They will not modify their paradigm shift to cater to power users, as the current paradigm is being broken in favor of a new PCO-centric paradigm.
So arguing about maintaining a paradigm that will not be maintained, is a waste of time.
What will be productive, will be approaching CCP with reasonable arguments that attempt to alter their theoretical paradigm vision to a realistic and practical one that actually fits real game play dynamics.
But that's just it... they can do both. They can maintain things for those established in the system while introducing PCOs in a way that the system and economy can absorb with relatively little pain. By simply leaving the customs offices in place, even for a period of three to six months outside of low, permanently in low, you allow everyone plenty of time to adapt while the PCO model establishes. If I have reasonable time to gather the BPCs and build the PCOs needed in my hole (will be up to 10) then for me nothing breaks at all. It becomes nothing more than an annoying added expense, but that can be absorbed. It's the cold turkey you're-PI-is-dead-right-now approach that concerns me personally, and with regards to high sec into low sec PI the fact that without customs offices to fight for the high sec folks are pretty much screwed and completely at the mercy of other people for their PI when that's never been the case before.
I don't hate or even dislike the PCO concept. I don't trust it as of yet, this is true... giving other people control over someone else's PI seems inherently bad... but if implemented intelligently and not forced down our throats generating an immediate gag reflex I think it can wind up working well.
Right now... a lot of people are gagging. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 18:51:00 -
[1600] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:But I notice there's CONCORD COs all over lowsec, not sure if they are destroyable. Just injected the skills for a dread on sisi, will let you know tomorrow The lowsec concord COs on Sisi are destroyable, just confirmed it.
The HP is misleading, because it bleeds too much into armor and hull. It died while still at 90% shields or so. I expect this will be different for player COs.
It does not go into reinforced (being NPC-owned, it was expected). And you do get a killmail from it (it must be the only NPC structure that does).
You get a -1.5% sec hit just from shooting it, -6% from destruction. If this is the sec status penalty for shooting player COs, it's much too high. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
|
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 21:25:00 -
[1601] - Quote
So it seems despite all the feedback to CCP that the concept was broken for low sec we see on SiSi it implemented as blogged?
They really don't get it.
Issler |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 21:37:00 -
[1602] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So it seems despite all the feedback to CCP that the concept was broken for low sec we see on SiSi it implemented as blogged?
They probably had to roll out what they had, a one week lead time is not all that long in terms of development time - especially if they are going significantly back to the drawing board with the concept (as they need to).
|
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance
227
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 22:38:00 -
[1603] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So it seems despite all the feedback to CCP that the concept was broken for low sec we see on SiSi it implemented as blogged?
They really don't get it.
Issler
Except youre assuming that the 'concept for low sec' is broken: when it plaintively isnt. Destructable Low Sec POCOs are the desperately needed future. Accept that the 'free and easy' ISK font is going and adapt accordingly.
C.
|
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 22:47:00 -
[1604] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:So it seems despite all the feedback to CCP that the concept was broken for low sec we see on SiSi it implemented as blogged?
They really don't get it.
Issler Except youre assuming that the 'concept for low sec' is broken: when it plaintively isnt. Destructable Low Sec POCOs are the desperately needed future. Accept that the 'free and easy' ISK font is going and adapt accordingly. C.
pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.
the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game. CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 23:23:00 -
[1605] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:So it seems despite all the feedback to CCP that the concept was broken for low sec we see on SiSi it implemented as blogged?
They really don't get it.
Issler
If CO's in low sec are destructible on SiSi, then I see that as an indication they are making changes based on our feedback.
We asked NPC-CO's be left but made destructible in Low Sec and that's what's being reported...
It may be a bit of a stretch to say they don't get it... not if their re-iterating. |
Zeronic
Zero Core Labs United Abominations
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 00:34:00 -
[1606] - Quote
I keep see this issues being talk about and the current path being a negative one. So CCP Dev's what if the people say Cancel this POCO and work on polishing the game over new content. Is that so much to ask?? |
Certis
Spaced Cowboys
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 00:57:00 -
[1607] - Quote
Sorry don't have time to read through all these pages, so maybe this has been said.
If I got this right you are saying that an individual and/or member of an npc corp can't build a customs office in low sec. In which case CCP just gonna shoot themselves in the foot yet again. Way to go if you want to loose even more old players who are in an npc corp and are happy that way. Not to mention many more new players who may also prefer not to join a non npc corp.
Low sec has been underutilised for years now and just when you introduce something that gives more players the incentive to explore and use low sec, you go and nerf it.
Introduce new stuff by all means, but don't keep moving the goal posts and nerfing stuff that many players have spent a great deal of time setting up for themselves.
Jeez when are you guys gonna wake up. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 01:44:00 -
[1608] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:So it seems despite all the feedback to CCP that the concept was broken for low sec we see on SiSi it implemented as blogged?
They really don't get it.
Issler Except youre assuming that the 'concept for low sec' is broken: when it plaintively isnt. Destructable Low Sec POCOs are the desperately needed future. Accept that the 'free and easy' ISK font is going and adapt accordingly. C.
Ah, C, you're missing the main point though. If the COs in low are destroyed and someone puts a PCO up, what recourse do the high sec folks have in NPC corps if they wind up denied access to those planets they're already established on?
None. Go somewhere else.
However, if you leave the COs intact but only offline them in the presence of a PCO, then the high sec people are given the option to band together, remove the PCO and start using the customs office again. Maybe a different corp will come along and set one up at fair rates the high folks accept... then they're making isk. You have to see that buy leaving the COs intact, though, that there's greater options for conflict simply because the high sec folks will have something they can actually fight for if provoked. The current method removes all incentive to fight for them. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 06:12:00 -
[1609] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Ah, C, you're missing the main point though. If the COs in low are destroyed and someone puts a PCO up, what recourse do the high sec folks have in NPC corps if they wind up denied access to those planets they're already established on?
They could experience Eve in all its glory by joining or forming a player corp. NPC corps have their place, but they can also be a hinderance. This is an excellent case in point. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 07:18:00 -
[1610] - Quote
Zeronic wrote:I keep see this issues being talk about and the current path being a negative one. So CCP Dev's what if the people say Cancel this POCO and work on polishing the game over new content. Is that so much to ask??
Ah what the hell let's just cancel DUST 514 too?
It's not the feature, its the lack of refinement in the current proposed iteration - lets see what the next Team Pi DevBlog says...
*CCP Omen - But whatever you do, Don't do what CCP Tallest did by leaving info out of his blog that he had to go back and edit |
|
MasterDk78
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 08:21:00 -
[1611] - Quote
Since they are totally defenceless, i would suggest putting in some kind of defence.
Etc, it would be pretty annoying while your sleeping that some noob spend some few hours alone sitting with his drones to get the office down to reinforce mode.
A way to add some defence to it can be done in some ways.
1. being able to upgrade the office with an attachment of dronebay. (150 m3) with 125 bandwith The dronebay attachment has 4 med slots, etc with the purpose of putting an sensor booster on it, some drone mod bonus'ses. As standard the dronebay attachment would have an range of 50km (hench why u can attach a sensor booster. Depending on the size of the attacking ship, the dronebay attachment would then send out drones accordingly to the mass of The attacker. Etc. light drones (if in stock) against a frig. Heavy drones vs bc & bs or aboth.
2. The office could be upgradeble with small to medium guns, those guns cant be killed, but if the office went into reinforce mode, The guns would be shut down, untill repaired.
now a q.
In lowsec, its a criminal act to attack an another player where u would loose standing, would it count in the same way when attacking an office (unless u at war) |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 09:32:00 -
[1612] - Quote
MasterDk78 wrote:Since they are totally defenceless, i would suggest putting in some kind of defence.
Etc, it would be pretty annoying while your sleeping that some noob spend some few hours alone sitting with his drones to get the office down to reinforce mode.
A way to add some defence to it can be done in some ways.
1. being able to upgrade the office with an attachment of dronebay. (150 m3) with 125 bandwith The dronebay attachment has 4 med slots, etc with the purpose of putting an sensor booster on it, some drone mod bonus'ses. As standard the dronebay attachment would have an range of 50km (hench why u can attach a sensor booster. Depending on the size of the attacking ship, the dronebay attachment would then send out drones accordingly to the mass of The attacker. Etc. light drones (if in stock) against a frig. Heavy drones vs bc & bs or aboth.
2. The office could be upgradeble with small to medium guns, those guns cant be killed, but if the office went into reinforce mode, The guns would be shut down, untill repaired.
now a q.
In lowsec, its a criminal act to attack an another player where u would loose standing, would it count in the same way when attacking an office (unless u at war)
Yes - this was already answered by CCP Nullarbor - Shooting PCO's in low sec will give you GCC as per the normal mechanic.
All aggression mechanics stay the same. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 10:42:00 -
[1613] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: Ah, C, you're missing the main point though. If the COs in low are destroyed and someone puts a PCO up, what recourse do the high sec folks have in NPC corps if they wind up denied access to those planets they're already established on?
None. Go somewhere else.
A bunch of NPC corp people can cooperate to take down a POCO, but not enough to setup an alt corp that anchors a new one?
In any case, I think forcing people to keep their lowsec POCOs open to all makes lots of sense. It fits lowsec gameplay better, in the same way a lowsec corp can "claim" a station, but can't stop others from using it except by permacamping the undock. And it makes more sense for the lore. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 10:50:00 -
[1614] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Ah, C, you're missing the main point though. If the COs in low are destroyed and someone puts a PCO up, what recourse do the high sec folks have in NPC corps if they wind up denied access to those planets they're already established on? They could experience Eve in all its glory by joining or forming a player corp. NPC corps have their place, but they can also be a hinderance. This is an excellent case in point.
So they should be forced to give up a part of the game they like in order to play the way you think they should? Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 11:30:00 -
[1615] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:rootimus maximus wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Ah, C, you're missing the main point though. If the COs in low are destroyed and someone puts a PCO up, what recourse do the high sec folks have in NPC corps if they wind up denied access to those planets they're already established on? They could experience Eve in all its glory by joining or forming a player corp. NPC corps have their place, but they can also be a hinderance. This is an excellent case in point. So they should be forced to give up a part of the game they like in order to play the way you think they should?
What is there to like about being in an NPC corp?
The taxes you pay "to the man" for no benefit?
The camaraderie of hundreds of newbies in corp chat asking the same silly questions over and over?
Perhaps it's the false sense of community one gets when they see green star icons in hi-sec all the time?
Or is it just the sad fear of being wardec'd in a real corporation that keeps them in the shallow end of the pool?
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Anna Orkiste
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 13:38:00 -
[1616] - Quote
So PVPers preper pay more for your ships. POS fuel again geting higher in price on this, So ractions to wil go up in price, and thatmeans ships modules evriting will rise in price.
I dont like this, more usles job for industrialists again :( no fun :(
Afcors grifers happy yeah someting to kill but they not tink forder than this ;)
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
22
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 13:56:00 -
[1617] - Quote
The steep standing hit may prevent large nul sec alliances from marauding through low sec, blowing up all the customs offices, and becoming absentee landlords.
That could be a good thing. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 14:00:00 -
[1618] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:The steep standing hit may prevent large nul sec alliances from marauding through low sec, blowing up all the customs offices, and becoming absentee landlords.
That could be a good thing.
that steep standing hit means nothing for anyone that lives in 0.0. can raise it fast by using the sec'ing up loophole. or stay blinky in 0.0 it donst really matter either way. but tbh i doubt any roaming gang shooting them will come back to finish them off. id expect them mostly ref'ing them to anoy people and making them come rep it. cos repping is awesom fun as already stated by ccp CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 14:02:00 -
[1619] - Quote
War Kitten wrote: What is there to like about being in an NPC corp?
The taxes you pay "to the man" for no benefit?
The camaraderie of hundreds of newbies in corp chat asking the same silly questions over and over?
Perhaps it's the false sense of community one gets when they see green star icons in hi-sec all the time?
Or is it just the sad fear of being wardec'd in a real corporation that keeps them in the shallow end of the pool?
What difference does it make? They're happy that way paying and playing Eve. Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to what either of us think they should. It's their playstyle. I can't stand the thought of null space but enjoy the hell out of wormholes. Others are the opposite. Is either more right? No, to each their own. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 15:15:00 -
[1620] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:War Kitten wrote: What is there to like about being in an NPC corp?
The taxes you pay "to the man" for no benefit?
The camaraderie of hundreds of newbies in corp chat asking the same silly questions over and over?
Perhaps it's the false sense of community one gets when they see green star icons in hi-sec all the time?
Or is it just the sad fear of being wardec'd in a real corporation that keeps them in the shallow end of the pool?
What difference does it make? They're happy that way paying and playing Eve. Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to what either of us think they should. It's their playstyle. I can't stand the thought of null space but enjoy the hell out of wormholes. Others are the opposite. Is either more right? No, to each their own.
Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to ours, no. But for them to be catered to, they probably ought to be rational in the context of the argument you're making.
Why should CCP, creators of the dark and harsh world of Eve Online, care that people who are too risk-averse or lazy to even create their own corporation won't be able to own a customs office in lowsec or have easy access to lowsec PI?
Lowsec isn't easy mode or for those afraid of risks.
NPC corporations are easy mode, specifically for those too new or too afraid of risk.
Just because they have access now doesn't make it "right", nor is it a valid argument for continuing the access into the future. If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 15:26:00 -
[1621] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to ours, no. But for them to be catered to, they probably ought to be rational in the context of the argument you're making.
Why should CCP, creators of the dark and harsh world of Eve Online, care that people who are too risk-averse or lazy to even create their own corporation won't be able to own a customs office in lowsec or have easy access to lowsec PI?
Lowsec isn't easy mode or for those afraid of risks.
NPC corporations are easy mode, specifically for those too new or too afraid of risk.
Just because they have access now doesn't make it "right", nor is it a valid argument for continuing the access into the future.
Keep in mind, even though these are folks that prefer the NPC corps, they're also the ones taking risks by going into low sec in the first place. These aren't the more risk-averse or lazy ones high has to offer. They're going into low, risking camps and ganks, for their PI.
They will have no reason to take the risk anymore.
That's the point I'm intending to make... if you take away the customs offices permanently, these people won't have the incentive to take the risks of going into low for any reason. Leave the customs offices permanently in low sec, but have them go inactive if a PCO is present. Then these people will have the option available to fight for their PI rights in low sec. It's incentive to take more risks, not less. Maybe after having to form groups to take out offending PCOs a few times will inspire some like-minded folks to form a corp of their own, who knows. But if you simply cut them off cold and tell them to do their PI in high sec... well, they will. They'll be more disgruntled, hate the system more and become less likely to expand further into the game. It's human nature. You can't take all the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll look at their empty box and go home. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 15:35:00 -
[1622] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Keep in mind, even though these are folks that prefer the NPC corps, they're also the ones taking risks by going into low sec in the first place. These aren't the more risk-averse or lazy ones high has to offer. They're going into low, risking camps and ganks, for their PI.
No, these are the ones who've figured out that there is NO risk in taking a cloaked transport through lowsec to do PI if you know what you're doing. They're not risking anything.
Ingvar Angst wrote: You can't take all the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll look at their empty box and go home.
CCP isn't removing the sand, they're removing the free plastic castle that comes with every PI office and telling you to build your own out of the sand from now on. If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
olsted
Yahoo Inc Caffeine Nicotine and Hate
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 16:21:00 -
[1623] - Quote
So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes).
Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point?
Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here.
(unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!"
Thanks, -O. |
Lolmer
Yahoo Inc Caffeine Nicotine and Hate
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 16:37:00 -
[1624] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote: pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.
the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game.
It's still an ISK sink and not a faucet. An ISK "sink" is where money is removed from the game (e.g. all those taxes you pay for import/export, the costs for placing structures (e.g. Extractor)) and never seen again. An ISK "faucet" or "font" is where ISK is made from nothing, which does not happen here as the PI goods are sold to players who already had the ISK in game. If PI goods were sold to NPCs then it would be a faucet, but that is not the case.
Examples of sinks:
- Station taxes
- CONCORD and faction fees for illegal goods
- Skillbooks
Examples of faucets:
- CONCORD bounties for rats
- Mission rewards
- Incursion payouts
Examples of non-faucets:
- Selling mission loot to another player
- Buying/selling a PLEX
- Selling PI goods on the market
Please argue with facts only and not wildly incorrect theories. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 16:42:00 -
[1625] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
Keep in mind, even though these are folks that prefer the NPC corps, they're also the ones taking risks by going into low sec in the first place. These aren't the more risk-averse or lazy ones high has to offer. They're going into low, risking camps and ganks, for their PI.
No, these are the ones who've figured out that there is NO risk in taking a cloaked transport through lowsec to do PI if you know what you're doing. They're not risking anything. Quote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Anything that is encouraging people to venture into low sec is a good thing in my opinion. Some folks need these baby steps to potentially take larger ones. Who are we to judge them or decry their playstyle simply because we chose differently? [quote=War Kitten] [quote=Ingvar Angst] You can't take all the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll look at their empty box and go home.
CCP isn't removing the sand, they're removing the free plastic castle that comes with every PI office and telling you to build your own out of the sand from now on.
There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?
This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach and if you kick them out there won't be a beach to play on. Leave the customs offices. Let them be inactive if a PCO is present and reactivate if it's removed. This leaves the sand so people will still be able to play in it. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 16:58:00 -
[1626] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?
This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach and if you kick them out there won't be a beach to play on. Leave the customs offices. Let them be inactive if a PCO is present and reactivate if it's removed. This leaves the sand so people will still be able to play in it.
Your entire argument is based on the idea that a bunch of NPC corp guys will get together to reinforce a POCO (getting a sec loss in the process), then come back 2 days later, beat the owner corp's fleet in a fight, and destroy the POCO.
Right.
Compared to that, making an alt corp and anchoring their own POCO, while keeping their mains in NPC corp, takes next to no time or organization. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:08:00 -
[1627] - Quote
Lolmer wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote: pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.
the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game.
It's still an ISK sink and not a faucet. An ISK "sink" is where money is removed from the game (e.g. all those taxes you pay for import/export, the costs for placing structures (e.g. Extractor)) and never seen again. An ISK "faucet" or "font" is where ISK is made from nothing, which does not happen here as the PI goods are sold to players who already had the ISK in game. If PI goods were sold to NPCs then it would be a faucet, but that is not the case. Examples of sinks:
- Station taxes
- CONCORD and faction fees for illegal goods
- Skillbooks
Examples of faucets:
- CONCORD bounties for rats
- Mission rewards
- Incursion payouts
Examples of non-faucets:
- Selling mission loot to another player
- Buying/selling a PLEX
- Selling PI goods on the market
Please argue with facts only and not wildly incorrect theories.
while i agree with the isk circulation arguement. this used to be a massive isk sink. now the only isk that is being removed is buying the cc and the building cost of the pi buildings. nothing else is removed. the tax will circulate with these plans to a player corp, not concord as currently. the massive isk sink devaluation happened when the npc sell orders were removed, as all pos fuels were an isk sink. so from an 0.0 corp point of view, we just got more isk rolling in to our wallet. CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:10:00 -
[1628] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?
The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes.
Ingvar Angst wrote: This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach and if you kick them out there won't be a beach to play on. Leave the customs offices. Let them be inactive if a PCO is present and reactivate if it's removed. This leaves the sand so people will still be able to play in it.
No, this, in fact, _requires_ to you build your own castle or pay taxes to the corporation who did. Why should Concord be subsidizing your sand castles for you? If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Lolmer
Yahoo Inc Caffeine Nicotine and Hate
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:16:00 -
[1629] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:Lolmer wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote: pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.
the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game.
It's still an ISK sink and not a faucet. An ISK "sink" is where money is removed from the game (e.g. all those taxes you pay for import/export, the costs for placing structures (e.g. Extractor)) and never seen again. An ISK "faucet" or "font" is where ISK is made from nothing, which does not happen here as the PI goods are sold to players who already had the ISK in game. If PI goods were sold to NPCs then it would be a faucet, but that is not the case. Examples of sinks:
- Station taxes
- CONCORD and faction fees for illegal goods
- Skillbooks
Examples of faucets:
- CONCORD bounties for rats
- Mission rewards
- Incursion payouts
Examples of non-faucets:
- Selling mission loot to another player
- Buying/selling a PLEX
- Selling PI goods on the market
Please argue with facts only and not wildly incorrect theories. while i agree with the isk circulation arguement. this used to be a massive isk sink. now the only isk that is being removed is buying the cc and the building cost of the pi buildings. nothing else is removed. the tax will circulate with these plans to a player corp, not concord as currently. the massive isk sink devaluation happened when the npc sell orders were removed, as all pos fuels were an isk sink. so from an 0.0 corp point of view, we just got more isk rolling in to our wallet.
Sure thing, but the ISK is coming from other players not from a magical faucet. ;) What's wrong with taking more ISK from other players?
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:21:00 -
[1630] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?
The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes.
We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
|
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
215
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:25:00 -
[1631] - Quote
Lolmer wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote:Lolmer wrote:Smoking Blunts wrote: pi goods used to be an isk sink. i would love them to go back to exactly that, but at this stage pi is perfect to ccp.
the isk font is still there and infact it grew more with corps getting the tax income insted of it being removed from the game.
It's still an ISK sink and not a faucet. An ISK "sink" is where money is removed from the game (e.g. all those taxes you pay for import/export, the costs for placing structures (e.g. Extractor)) and never seen again. An ISK "faucet" or "font" is where ISK is made from nothing, which does not happen here as the PI goods are sold to players who already had the ISK in game. If PI goods were sold to NPCs then it would be a faucet, but that is not the case. Examples of sinks:
- Station taxes
- CONCORD and faction fees for illegal goods
- Skillbooks
Examples of faucets:
- CONCORD bounties for rats
- Mission rewards
- Incursion payouts
Examples of non-faucets:
- Selling mission loot to another player
- Buying/selling a PLEX
- Selling PI goods on the market
Please argue with facts only and not wildly incorrect theories. while i agree with the isk circulation arguement. this used to be a massive isk sink. now the only isk that is being removed is buying the cc and the building cost of the pi buildings. nothing else is removed. the tax will circulate with these plans to a player corp, not concord as currently. the massive isk sink devaluation happened when the npc sell orders were removed, as all pos fuels were an isk sink. so from an 0.0 corp point of view, we just got more isk rolling in to our wallet. Sure thing, but the ISK is coming from other players not from a magical faucet. ;) What's wrong with taking more ISK from other players?
id rather it go back to npc orders. them rework pi compleatly so it is actually like what they showed us in all the fanfest vid and not the mindnumbing chore it currently is. im lucky, for me its not actually about the isk. its about the fact pi is fuckingterribad in its current state and my anoyance with ccp's head in teh sand view of it. this addition only compounds there impotence to produce anything more than a crappy click fest as a mini game and dull structures that dont back to shoot.
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 19:04:00 -
[1632] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?
The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes. We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree.
You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec.
I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes.
Who has a more experienced opinion? If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 19:27:00 -
[1633] - Quote
War Kitten wrote: You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec.
I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes.
Who has a more experienced opinion?
I'm arguing from the standpoint of someone that did a little PI in low sec while stationed in high sec prior to moving into wormholes. At the time, that was pretty much my only reason to go into low sec, and as new as I was at the time, it was nerve wracking (in a fun way). So we're indeed looking at it from both sides of the same coin, with our "experienced opinions" filtered through differing perspectives. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 20:17:00 -
[1634] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm?
The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes. We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree. You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec. I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes. Who has a more experienced opinion?
As a person that has lived in lowsec for over 5 years I totally disagree, with low sec today largely being filled with random griefers CO popping will become the new griefer hobby.
CCP's idea is TERRIBLE for low sec!
So as a long time committed low sec dweller (and someone that has repeatedly run for the CSM as a low sec focused candidate) I say CCP's changes are bad for low sec.
I have a more experienced opinion!
Issler |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 20:32:00 -
[1635] - Quote
Which goes back to the reasoning of why POCOs need defenses, on the scale of POS towers. How often does a well-defended medium or large tower get put into reinforced in lo-sec?
(And also supports why the tariffs are going to have to be adjusted upwards quite a bit to pay either for POCO replacement or for the ISK needed to anchor additional defensive modules.) |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 20:50:00 -
[1636] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:As a person that has lived in lowsec for over 5 years I totally disagree, with low sec today largely being filled with random griefers CO popping will become the new griefer hobby.
CCP's idea is TERRIBLE for low sec!
Well, in my experience as a "lowsec griefer", shooting structures is boring as hell. The only reasons we ever shot towers was to either get fights or loot (from labs, silos are worthless). Why would you waste your time shooting a structure that won't drop any loot? And you have to do it twice, one to reinforce, one to blow it up.
Plus, if it does become popular to shoot POCOs, you bet PVP corps will be putting them up to create fights. At 80-100 mil each, they are cheaper than a fitted ship. And they don't involve the fuelling nightmare of towers. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
336
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 21:41:00 -
[1637] - Quote
olsted wrote:So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes).
Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point?
Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here.
(unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!"
Thanks, -O.
We have a follow up devblog drafted and are just waiting on confirmation to some changes before releasing more details. No promises, but maybe early next week?
Besides, you should be busy gawking over new BCs anyway CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 22:18:00 -
[1638] - Quote
Basicly War Kitten just wants more blobs and more Power to the big blocks....
QUit lieing and just come out and say it shesh |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 23:44:00 -
[1639] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:As a person that has lived in lowsec for over 5 years I totally disagree, with low sec today largely being filled with random griefers CO popping will become the new griefer hobby.
CCP's idea is TERRIBLE for low sec! Well, in my experience as a "lowsec griefer", shooting structures is boring as hell. The only reasons we ever shot towers was to either get fights or loot (from labs, silos are worthless). Why would you waste your time shooting a structure that won't drop any loot? And you have to do it twice, one to reinforce, one to blow it up. Plus, if it does become popular to shoot POCOs, you bet PVP corps will be putting them up to create fights. At 80-100 mil each, they are cheaper than a fitted ship. And they don't involve the fuelling nightmare of towers.
This.
Shooting structures is not going to be a griefer's new hobby in lowsec. Not when it drops nothing and will always go into reinforced mode.
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 23:51:00 -
[1640] - Quote
bilingi wrote: Basicly War Kitten just wants more blobs and more Power to the big blocks.... QUit lieing and just come out and say it shesh
Yes, the POCO changes will obviously give the Russians that last bit of power they were missing and they'll finally own all of Eve.
Blobs will pour out of 0.0 and dance with joy at all the lowsec customs offices to destroy. If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
|
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 02:25:00 -
[1641] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps.
This is only true if you exclude mannig up and forming a player corp, then fighting for what you want as an option.
Quote: Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low
Then man up and get in a player corp. Take what you want (and hold on to it0 through force.
Quote:This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach
You, sir, have lost all credibility with your assertion that people who enjoy the spaceship PvP aspect of a spaceshp PvP game are bullies. If you had the fortitude to spend some real time in lowsec you'd find the same range of people that you'll find anywhere else in the game, including a few vindictive tossers.
I suggest you stick to PI in a nice, quiet 1.0 system. |
Xylorn Hasher
Mean Corp Mean Coalition
29
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 09:40:00 -
[1642] - Quote
You are not quite right guys.
No one will be able to defend POCOs especially in lowsec. I'm going to explain you why:
Let's say POCOs corporation owners have big fleet to defend them. All you seems to make common mistake and want to create similar sized fleet to fight them.
No no and once again no.
If they have big fleet just use stealth bombers. With 4000-5000 volley dmg ( without bombs which you cannot use in low ) a pack of thease can take POCO down quite fast and their huge awesome fleet can't do a thing to stop you.
If they have ceptors just create a few safe spots near POCO and some far away but still on grid - 200km away from POCO. That will allow you to shoot missiles in midwarp. Missiles will hit target cuz you are still on grid. Just shoot, warp, cloak, repeat. No ceptor will catch you ever.
If they are big you must be small.
|
Sangard
Firebrands
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 10:01:00 -
[1643] - Quote
good luck, mate
There is only one thing you have to know. Every tactic has a counter!
Don't wanna offend you but your tactic has many but you'll see. |
Sangard
Firebrands
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 10:06:00 -
[1644] - Quote
Sangard wrote:good luck, mate There is only one thing you have to know. Every tactic has a counter! Don't wanna offend you but your tactic has many but you'll see.
Just for your calculations. How many bombers do you need with a warp - shoot - warp tactic to deal more damage than a single carrier can rep? Than you can multiply it by the cap fleet size you are talking of. My guess? You fleet have to be much bigger than the cap fleet. |
Xylorn Hasher
Mean Corp Mean Coalition
29
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 10:22:00 -
[1645] - Quote
Sangard wrote:Sangard wrote:good luck, mate There is only one thing you have to know. Every tactic has a counter! Don't wanna offend you but your tactic has many but you'll see. Just for your calculations. How many bombers do you need with a warp - shoot - warp tactic to deal more damage than a single carrier can rep? Than you can multiply it by the cap fleet size you are talking of. My guess? You fleet have to be much bigger than the cap fleet.
If you cyno in carrier in lowsec on planet custom office every pirate in the area will come to kill it. Intel works. Ppl had come in the past for such fights even those we are red with on day to day basis.
How many times per day will you convince your friends to bring carriers and other ships to defend your 200m worth POCO? Will they help you 20 times per day? Every day in in the week?
You will come rep then die or leave, then we will come bash and destroy. It will be whole day work for you, and much fun for us. Cuz we live where we live and it is our land.
I have forced to take down entire POSes networks just being a pain in the ass. Try to rep your incapacitetad POS guns 5 times a day then you will understand. Bigger than you give up and move elsewere.
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 10:34:00 -
[1646] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:olsted wrote:So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes).
Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point?
Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here.
(unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!"
Thanks, -O. We have a follow up devblog drafted and are just waiting on confirmation to some changes before releasing more details. No promises, but maybe early next week? Besides, you should be busy gawking over new BCs anyway
New ships are pretty, but this involves significant changes and significant hardships if implemented poorly. I hope you understand why the ships aren't all that distracting. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 10:42:00 -
[1647] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. This is only true if you exclude mannig up and forming a player corp, then fighting for what you want as an option. Quote: Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low Then man up and get in a player corp. Take what you want (and hold on to it0 through force. Quote:This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach You, sir, have lost all credibility with your assertion that people who enjoy the spaceship PvP aspect of a spaceshp PvP game are bullies. If you had the fortitude to spend some real time in lowsec you'd find the same range of people that you'll find anywhere else in the game, including a few vindictive tossers. I suggest you stick to PI in a nice, quiet 1.0 system.
It's an expression you boob. I'm quite content doing my PI in my wormhole with a boogey-man hiding behind every moon and no local giving away free intel to the wimps afraid of the shadows.
Now, back to the point. Who the hell are you to dictate how every player in Eve should be playing Eve? There are people quite content to be in NPC corps, and that doesn't mean in any way, shape or form that their style of play is any better or worse than yours. That's the beauty of a sandbox style game in case you forgot... you only have to meet your own expectations, not that of the forum trolls. This current implementation of the change is taking away something from people that there's no reason to take away. Since you obviously weren't paying attention, I'll reiterate my idea on it... leave the customs offices and have them be inactive when a PCO is up. This way people that choose to remain in an NPC corp still have the option to go out and fight for their PI access while enjoying the style of play they choose. The ONLY people bitching about this are the ones planning to prey on this ability to take away from these high sec people and apparently don't have the balls to stand up to the scary NPC corps should they decide to mobilize and fight back.
Now hush and let the adults chat. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 10:52:00 -
[1648] - Quote
Xylorn Hasher wrote:Let's say POCOs corporation owners have big fleet to defend them. All you seems to make common mistake and want to create similar sized fleet to fight them.
No no and once again no.
If they have big fleet just use stealth bombers. With 4000-5000 volley dmg ( without bombs which you cannot use in low ) a pack of thease can take POCO down quite fast and their huge awesome fleet can't do a thing to stop you.
You try that. If you have 15 bombers, what, 70 volleys each to kill the armor and structure? That's at least 40 minutes, and it's easy to counter by a couple arty canes and a fast pointer.
But a related point. With relatively low HP and no defenses, living close to the POCO will be very important to defending it. This is good. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 12:57:00 -
[1649] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Now, back to the point. Who the hell are you to dictate how every player in Eve should be playing Eve? There are people quite content to be in NPC corps, and that doesn't mean in any way, shape or form that their style of play is any better or worse than yours. That's the beauty of a sandbox style game in case you forgot... you only have to meet your own expectations, not that of the forum trolls. This current implementation of the change is taking away something from people that there's no reason to take away. Since you obviously weren't paying attention, I'll reiterate my idea on it... leave the customs offices and have them be inactive when a PCO is up. This way people that choose to remain in an NPC corp still have the option to go out and fight for their PI access while enjoying the style of play they choose.
Your argument that "they have it now, they should always have it" has no merit.
Should the Dramiel stay overpowered as it is now? It's always been that way...
Should the nano-ship era have been left in place, despite getting out of hand?
Should the AOE doomsday of titans have been left in place because it was that way first?
Game mechanics change over time. What you don't seem to understand is that EVE is a conflict-driven game. PI, as it stands now, has almost 0 risk and adds nothing to the conflict of the game that drives the economy. With player-owned customs offices, there will be potential for more conflict.
Just because people like NPC corp style of play and WANT to have easy access to good isk with minimal risk doesn't mean it's good for the game. The game is about building things and blowing them up and then rebuilding them.
And finally, and I want you to think about this one, who in their right mind would build their own CO if they *knew* the concord one would never go away? What would be the point of even adding the feature at all in the manner you describe?
Your idea, while perhaps well-intentioned, is a poor one.
Ingvar Angst wrote:The ONLY people bitching about this are the ones planning to prey on this ability to take away from these high sec people and apparently don't have the balls to stand up to the scary NPC corps should they decide to mobilize and fight back.
Now hush and let the adults chat.
Actually you're the one bitching about this. "High sec people" will continue to have PI access the same as before.
If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:12:00 -
[1650] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Now, back to the point. Who the hell are you to dictate how every player in Eve should be playing Eve? There are people quite content to be in NPC corps, and that doesn't mean in any way, shape or form that their style of play is any better or worse than yours. That's the beauty of a sandbox style game in case you forgot... you only have to meet your own expectations, not that of the forum trolls. This current implementation of the change is taking away something from people that there's no reason to take away. Since you obviously weren't paying attention, I'll reiterate my idea on it... leave the customs offices and have them be inactive when a PCO is up. This way people that choose to remain in an NPC corp still have the option to go out and fight for their PI access while enjoying the style of play they choose. Your argument that "they have it now, they should always have it" has no merit. Should the Dramiel stay overpowered as it is now? It's always been that way... Should the nano-ship era have been left in place, despite getting out of hand? Should the AOE doomsday of titans have been left in place because it was that way first? Game mechanics change over time. What you don't seem to understand is that EVE is a conflict-driven game. PI, as it stands now, has almost 0 risk and adds nothing to the conflict of the game that drives the economy. With player-owned customs offices, there will be potential for more conflict. Just because people like NPC corp style of play and WANT to have easy access to good isk with minimal risk doesn't mean it's good for the game. The game is about building things and blowing them up and then rebuilding them. And finally, and I want you to think about this one, who in their right mind would build their own CO if they *knew* the concord one would never go away? What would be the point of even adding the feature at all in the manner you describe? Your idea, while perhaps well-intentioned, is a poor one.
Your examples are invalid. They're representing things which are imbalanced in the name and need to be changed for that reason. There's nothing imbalanced about someone in an npc corp being able to do PI in low sec. Imbalances != playstyles.
As for who would build PCOs? Simple... entrepreneur types willing to put them up with open access at a fair tax rate that the high sec people won't mind paying at all for the access to the better resources. You know... the ones CCP is intending this to be built by.
Ingvar Angst wrote:The ONLY people bitching about this are the ones planning to prey on this ability to take away from these high sec people and apparently don't have the balls to stand up to the scary NPC corps should they decide to mobilize and fight back.
Now hush and let the adults chat.
Actually you're the one bitching about this. "High sec people" will continue to have PI access the same as before. [/quote]
Eh... true, I am kind of bitching about this. However, you're mistaken. All it takes is some low sec bunghole to plant these and cut off access to the planets for the high sec people to no longer have the same access they do now.
The question is... what could possibly be wrong with leaving high sec people something they can fight for, even if they chose to remain in an npc corp? How is that in any way a problem, unless you don't want the competition for the planet? Why restrict the potential for more PvP in low by taking away a reason for some people to go there in the first place? A grizzled old low sec veteran such as yourself surely has no reason to fear these noobs in NPC corps, so why not leave customs offices there to lure them to their doom?
Your reasoning is... escaping me. You talk of how low sec should be more challenging, more PvPish... yet look to have a system in place that has the opposite effect. Leave the customs offices there for the high sec people to fight for if someone erects a PCO in a way that pisses them off. How could this possibly be a bad thing? That's the explanation I'm waiting for. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:40:00 -
[1651] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:As for who would build PCOs? Simple... entrepreneur types willing to put them up with open access at a fair tax rate that the high sec people won't mind paying at all for the access to the better resources. You know... the ones CCP is intending this to be built by. [...] Eh... true, I am kind of bitching about this. However, you're mistaken. All it takes is some low sec bunghole to plant these and cut off access to the planets for the high sec people to no longer have the same access they do now. Those entrepeneurs will end up being the local pirates. Because, face it, they are the ones who live there, who can defend them, and most have zero interest in doing PI themselves.
Also, you still haven't addressed my argument, so I repeat it. What keeps your NPC corp POCO bashers from anchoring their own POCO with a one man alt corp? It takes just a few hours to train a new alt that can do it. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 14:00:00 -
[1652] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:As for who would build PCOs? Simple... entrepreneur types willing to put them up with open access at a fair tax rate that the high sec people won't mind paying at all for the access to the better resources. You know... the ones CCP is intending this to be built by. [...] Eh... true, I am kind of bitching about this. However, you're mistaken. All it takes is some low sec bunghole to plant these and cut off access to the planets for the high sec people to no longer have the same access they do now. Those entrepeneurs will end up being the local pirates. Because, face it, they are the ones who live there, who can defend them, and most have zero interest in doing PI themselves. Also, you still haven't addressed my argument, so I repeat it. What keeps your NPC corp POCO bashers from anchoring their own POCO with a one man alt corp? It takes just a few hours to train a new alt that can do it.
Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 14:05:00 -
[1653] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:What keeps your NPC corp POCO bashers from anchoring their own POCO with a one man alt corp? It takes just a few hours to train a new alt that can do it.
Technically not much, it is just another thing you need an alt for, which is not a good thing in my opinion. I just don't see and upside in changing an existing features, just so you need an alt or (possibly hard to get) specific role in a player corp to continue doing it.
Forcing people to invest isk before they can continue doing something they have been doing all along (and paying real money for it, too btw.) is just unnecessary roughness considering that I haven't heard anyone complaining about PI being an imbalanced cash cow. Nerfing something, that many people have been complaining about is OK, making something a PITA, that worked fine and noone had an issue with before is not.
I think what many people around here are complaining about is the fact, that the new POCO system seems to have some unnecessary caveats that makes it exceedingly painful for WH dwellers and high-sec NPC corp industrial types, that have a PI setup in low-sec.
Here are two questions I still found no answers to:
- Why make POCOs dependent on a grantable role in a corp? Even if sticking to corps: Why use a well established and rather hard to get role for this instead of introducing a new one?
- Why make POCOs so expensive?
Oh and one more thing: Having an attack on low-sec POCOs incur a sec-loss will make high-sec people even more reluctant to do PvP over POCOs in low-sec because those people tend to shy away from standing losses like vampires from sunlight. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 14:27:00 -
[1654] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only.
You have 3 slots on an account, make new char, train: Corp Management I, Anchoring I, Amarr Frig III, Amarr Industrial I, Hull Upgrades I. That's 9 hours with no implants. You can't put the bar any lower.
Thoirdhealbhach wrote:Why make POCOs dependent on a grantable role in a corp? Even if sticking to corps: Why use a well established and rather hard to get role for this instead of introducing a new one? Devs have said before, adding new roles is not an option (See Tuxford's post). The devblog mentions roles for upgrading and configuring, not anchoring. If they are the same as for upgrading (config equipment), it should be fine. You can configure them remotely.
Thoirdhealbhach wrote:Why make POCOs so expensive? It's not just price, it's price vs profitabilty, They need to pay for themselves much faster than that.
Thoirdhealbhach wrote:Oh and one more thing: Having an attack on low-sec POCOs incur a sec-loss will make high-sec people even more reluctant to do PvP over POCOs in low-sec because those people tend to shy away from standing losses like vampires from sunlight. Excellent point. This can be avoided somewhat with wardecs, but it's still a problem. To be fair, the entire sec status concept is a terrible mechanic that only keeps people away from lowsec, but that's a matter for another expansion entirely. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 14:39:00 -
[1655] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only.
You have 3 slots on an account, make new char, train: Corp Management I, Anchoring I, Amarr Frig III, Amarr Industrial I, Hull Upgrades I. That's 9 hours with no implants. You can't put the bar any lower.
So, once again, it's about people playing the way you decide they should instead of how they want to.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:01:00 -
[1656] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Your examples are invalid. They're representing things which are imbalanced in the name and need to be changed for that reason. There's nothing imbalanced about someone in an npc corp being able to do PI in low sec. Imbalances != playstyles.
Well, you saw my point at least. Yes, there *is* something imbalanced about reaping the increased rewards of lowsec PI with no more risk than using hisec PI.
Ingvar Angst wrote:As for who would build PCOs? Simple... entrepreneur types willing to put them up with open access at a fair tax rate that the high sec people won't mind paying at all for the access to the better resources. You know... the ones CCP is intending this to be built by.
Entrepreneurs who are bad at math, right? The risk of losing a POCO before it even remotely pays for itself through taxes and convenience of just using the concord office far outweighs the miniscule long term benefits of actually putting up one's own office.
...and CCP is intending every single one in lowsec to be player built, not just the ones built buy your economically-challenged entrepreneurs.
Ingvar Angst wrote:Eh... true, I am kind of bitching about this. However, you're mistaken. All it takes is some low sec bunghole to plant these and cut off access to the planets for the high sec people to no longer have the same access they do now.
You said "high sec people". You can't place a POCO in highsec to cut anything off. If you're talking about the "big bad NPC corp" people who bravely cloak their way into lowesec for the better PI and then run back out, too bad. That's the imbalanced part that you're missing. Higher reward in lowsec, but 0 extra risk.
Ingvar Angst wrote: Why restrict the potential for more PvP in low by taking away a reason for some people to go there in the first place? A grizzled old low sec veteran such as yourself surely has no reason to fear these noobs in NPC corps, so why not leave customs offices there to lure them to their doom?
This is where your lack of experience in lowsec or having even tried hunting anyone shows plain as day. People flying into lowsec for PI access do *not* present more potential for pvp. You can imagine they do all you want. If it gives someone a rush sneaking into lowsec to gather their PI, that's cool. But there's nothing difficult or risky about it unless you're an incompetent pilot.
There is zero chance to catch a cov-ops cloaking ship at a gate.
There is almost zero chance to catch a ship at a customs office unless you're already there camping it or the PI guy is remarkably inept at the whole drag-and-drop concept.
If you are there camping it, you might see one pilot every week or so. And then it would only be the idiot who didn't scan ahead to see if anyone was camping the office. It's not like people are visiting customs offices every few hours.
Ingvar Angst wrote: Your reasoning is... escaping me. You talk of how low sec should be more challenging, more PvPish... yet look to have a system in place that has the opposite effect. Leave the customs offices there for the high sec people to fight for if someone erects a PCO in a way that pisses them off. How could this possibly be a bad thing? That's the explanation I'm waiting for.
You're waiting for an explanation of why I don't care about the specific situation where an imaginary organized group of NPC corp citizens will care enough and have the balls enough to go shoot down a POCO in lowsec in order to free up the NPC CO for their use again?
1) Such an imaginary group will be rare. 2) The time involved in shooting the POCO will get them killed if they're not already familiar with flying in lowsec. 3) If they are already familiar enough, they're not likely to be in the imaginary group to start with. 4) If they do manage to bring it down, whomever put it up in the first place will do so again**, and likely wait for the noob corpies to try again.
Imagining that highsec dwelling NPC corp folks will organize to fight for a cause of destroying a lowsec POCO, but would not organize to build their own, is unrealistic. Take your examples to the next logical step for both sides involved and you'll see the flaws.
** This is assuming that someone would build a POCO in lowsec entirely to restrict access or draw the fights, and not for economic benefit. There is NO economic benefit to building a lowsec POCO with your proposed idea. If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:04:00 -
[1657] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only.
You have 3 slots on an account, make new char, train: Corp Management I, Anchoring I, Amarr Frig III, Amarr Industrial I, Hull Upgrades I. That's 9 hours with no implants. You can't put the bar any lower. So, once again, it's about people playing the way you decide they should instead of how they want to.
So by your reasoning, if CCP gave you 3 tools, a hammer, a screwdriver and a wrench, and you ONLY wanted to use the hammer for some reason, you'd insist that every feature cater to the hammerers?
Imaginary or self-imposed limitations aren't something you balance a game around. If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:34:00 -
[1658] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only.
You have 3 slots on an account, make new char, train: Corp Management I, Anchoring I, Amarr Frig III, Amarr Industrial I, Hull Upgrades I. That's 9 hours with no implants. You can't put the bar any lower. So, once again, it's about people playing the way you decide they should instead of how they want to. So by your reasoning, if CCP gave you 3 tools, a hammer, a screwdriver and a wrench, and you ONLY wanted to use the hammer for some reason, you'd insist that every feature cater to the hammerers?
No, but I'd ***** like hell if they decided to take away my nails. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Edart eno
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:35:00 -
[1659] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:War Kitten wrote:...
We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree.
You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec. I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes. Who has a more experienced opinion? Yes, please explain to me why the following situation won't happen: Edart eno wrote:CCP Omen wrote:
Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.
That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. Regards Omen But this is where you are so horribly wrong, corps will not set a 9% tax! Please let me explain and bare with me. I love the idea, I really do. However in practice it will never ever work the way you now intend it to. The reason for this is very simple; the "tax-amount " balance won't work in a game with players and mechanics like EVE. I know what you are thinking (atleast I like to believe I do), you are hoping that corps will lower their taxes because 1: if they lower their taxes, more people will use their planet and therefore more revenues again. 2: the higher their taxes the more chance PI'ers will get discontent and destroy the office. However in reality this 'free-market' dynamism will never happen because: 1: - Planet installations are Immobile and specific to the planet. (and this one is a biggy!) - Planets are only really survivable for perhaps 1 to 3,4 players. - Planet resource layout, Installation setup, logistical problems, ... already make planets highly unsuitable for comparison, combine that with a dynamic tax and people will have no means to effectively compare planets --> no incentive for the corps to adjust their taxes --> Planet taxes will go from a free market equilibrum to a hostage/griefing mechanisme. 2: - the people who will be shooting down the Offices won't be other PI'ers, but will be griefers or mercs, just like we can see with POS'es in low sec. Effectively making PI just another Moon mining, SOV warfare, Corp, Alliance slugfest and to be honest we've already got plenty of those who already should be more than lucrative and exciting... Or Limit this system to Non Empire (this system is perfect for NPC Null to stand out from Low or regular sec, and give WH holders some extra isk and means from invaders) Or Limit the tax range amount from example 2% to 30% max Or Combine these two and have Null do what it wants and Low only have taxes up to 15-20% max (can be a lot lower since it already is a fairly large amount for relatively an entirely passive income)
The way it is now POCO's will turn in nothing more than in griefing/extortion mechanisms with: or no out of corp acces at all, or nowhere near reasonable taxes (50+ %). Meaning the only way for a PI'er is put one up himself and defend it -> so joining a corp -> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we are back at what PI Shouldn't be, a corp affair just like we already have moon mining, sov, anomalies, ...
The simple fact of the matter is that PI was from the start of intended to be for individual players and after this... It won't be anymore. |
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:51:00 -
[1660] - Quote
Edart eno wrote: The way it is now POCO's will turn in nothing more than in griefing/extortion mechanisms with: or no out of corp acces at all, or nowhere near reasonable taxes (50+ %). Meaning the only way for a PI'er is put one up himself and defend it -> join a corp -> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we are back at what PI Shouldn't be, a corp affair just like we already have moon mining, sov, anomalies, ...
Signed.
Few easy skills + ~500k initial investment + a hauler = small income for everyone
100M cost each + corp control + possible lockout = high level strategically planned activity
This seems like a very saddening contradiction to me. I think the right order of business would be to offer something for everyone, esp. new players first. Eve does not lack interesting/lucrative end-game opportunities it lacks short and mid term perspectives for new players. Plus corp leader types don't seems overly keen on dealing with more management tasks as it is.
I'm still wondering why POCOs need corp support but why not have a grantable role "PI customs officer" for each system a corp has POCOs in? Station Manager is a high end role no newbie will be granted, but a PI specific role (maybe even tied to a single solar system) might give new players a nice little niche role in a corp. |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:52:00 -
[1661] - Quote
Edart eno wrote: The simple fact of the matter is that PI was from the start of intended to be for individual players and after this... It won't be anymore.
Please link to a dev blog or official blue response that says that, otherwise stop with that line of reasoning. PI was always intended to be a source of conflict (almost the entire reason for DUST, besides the 'cash in on console FPS' bandwagon). This concept just advances us one more step along the road towards making it a fight over resources, just like moon mining (which also require fixed assets).
And when it comes to conflict, lone wolves only survive by being crafty, sneaky, and staying away from the large packs and busy areas. Which, for PI, means using customs center launches or setting up shop in a very quiet system. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:54:00 -
[1662] - Quote
Edart eno wrote:The way it is now POCO's will turn in nothing more than in griefing/extortion mechanisms with: or no out of corp acces at all, or nowhere near reasonable taxes (50+ %).
CCP was wrong to put it as a percentage, implying it's related to actual value. As currently proposed, even 100% tax is only 4% of market value for P1 items, and 20% for P3. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:55:00 -
[1663] - Quote
Edart eno wrote: The way it is now POCO's will turn in nothing more than in griefing/extortion mechanisms with: or no out of corp acces at all, or nowhere near reasonable taxes (50+ %). Meaning the only way for a PI'er is put one up himself and defend it -> join a corp -> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we are back at what PI Shouldn't be, a corp affair just like we already have moon mining, sov, anomalies, ...
What do anomalies have to do with being a corp affair?
And why shouldn't owning major structures and operating them as businesses NOT be a corporate affair? Isn't that what corporations are all about? Business entities that own assets?
Every single character in the game is a member of a corporation. It's a pretty imbedded concept in Eve if you haven't noticed. Being part of an NPC corporation just means you're a nobody in that corp, with no rights or special roles. But you're still part of a corporation.
Edart eno wrote: The simple fact of the matter is that PI was from the start of intended to be for individual players and after this... It won't be anymore.
No, Chicken Little, the sky is not falling. Here's a Google search for you that might help...
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=overcoming+fear+of+change If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 15:57:00 -
[1664] - Quote
Thoirdhealbhach wrote:I'm still wondering why POCOs need corp support but why not have a grantable role "PI customs officer" for each system a corp has POCOs in? Station Manager is a high end role no newbie will be granted, but a PI specific role (maybe even tied to a single solar system) might give new players a nice little niche role in a corp. You don't need the role to access it, just to anchor it (and I'm assuming anchoring, like upgrading, only takes "Config Equipment" role). What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 16:04:00 -
[1665] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Thoirdhealbhach wrote:I'm still wondering why POCOs need corp support but why not have a grantable role "PI customs officer" for each system a corp has POCOs in? Station Manager is a high end role no newbie will be granted, but a PI specific role (maybe even tied to a single solar system) might give new players a nice little niche role in a corp. You don't need the role to access it, just to anchor it (and I'm assuming anchoring, like upgrading, only takes "Config Equipment" role). Sure but setting tax level and minimum standings is restricted to station managers and that leaves the actual fun part of owning a POCO to the "big guys", who will most probably not even enjoy this, because they have enough other tasks on their mind. |
Petar Harad
Sebiestor Tribe
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 16:49:00 -
[1666] - Quote
I have no idea if this is already mentioned in the previous posts, but in the Dev Blog it states 'Your personal storage in the Customs Office has been increased by 50% to 35000 m3'.
The current storage is 25000 m3. An increase with 50% should give a grand total of 37500 m3, not 35000 m3. Or to put it in another way, as it stands now the increase is 40%, not 50%. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 17:10:00 -
[1667] - Quote
Really? Only ones i see supporting it are RMT supporters like War Kitten.. Or some alternate posting for a main in a big corp,,,,
Yea thats what ccp needs to do drive away even more people. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 17:15:00 -
[1668] - Quote
bilingi wrote:Really? Only ones i see supporting it are RMT supporters like War Kitten.. Or some alternate posting for a main in a big corp,,,, Yea thats what ccp needs to do drive away even more people.
So anyone who disagrees with you is automatically bad because you can't come up with a sensible counter to what we're saying? My main isn't even in a big corp. More a small-medium sized one. However, we make up for our lack of numbers with enthusiasm. :) |
KC-CaLiAnLa
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 17:33:00 -
[1669] - Quote
For the sake of the discussion, lets look at it from a different view:
There are always pro's and con's regarding a feature, for PI'ers the downsides have been made clear many times but perhaps the upsides for others outweigh these downsides, that I do not know of.
So:
Could somebody who is pro-POCO explain to me what these POCO's will bring to the tafel that Moon Mining doesn't already offer? |
Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 18:02:00 -
[1670] - Quote
Yeah I'd like to hear that, too. |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 18:17:00 -
[1671] - Quote
KC-CaLiAnLa wrote:So:
Could somebody who is pro-POCO explain to me what these POCO's will bring to the tafel that Moon Mining doesn't already offer?
Ok.
Due to the defenses and logistics (fueling, hauling) involved, the rarity of good moons, and their income, moon mining cannot create small gang warfare. Moons are valuable enough, and well defended enough, that it becomes a big alliance game.
The POCOs need no fuel so they are easier on a small to mid-size corp with no dedicated logistics team. With their lower defenses, you can reinforce a POCO with 10 people in 15-30 minutes. It can be done so often that it's not worth it for a big alliance to respond from 3 titan jumps away.
This should create smaller, more local conflict. Unlike the absentee landlords of moons, POCOs will (should) belong to the people actually living in the area.
Also, since you are taxing people, and not extracting materials, you are dealing with dynamic resources. Unlike static moons, people can migrate from planet to planet over time, making some planets more valuables and others less.
Some of this may be wishful thinking, and a lot will depend on the final price of POCOs and their profitability, but there is only one way to find out. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 18:33:00 -
[1672] - Quote
Another thought on the "lack of POCO situation".
Right now, when we use the Command Center to do planet launches, we pay the tariff to the "big NPC in the sky" for the privilege and we pay 50% more then what it would cost to send that up to the Customs Office.
Naturally, if NPC services are going away, then we should not have to pay for launches from our command center. But this also causes big issues for the economics of a POCO, especially if the command center launch capacity is also increased to the point where not using the POCO at all becomes extremely viable.
One possibility would be to force the expenditure of some sort of fuel in exchange for not using the POCO. Liquid Ozone would be a good bet as that is already used as a cyno fuel. Simply make it so that every CC launch consumes N units of fuel out of your ship's cargo bay. A good number might be 1 unit of Liquid Ozone for every 100m3 (or fraction of 100m3) that you are launching with a minimum of 5 units used.
Liquid Ozone currently sells for about 325 ISK/u and is 0.40 m3/unit in size. So expending 5 units of LiqOz would run about 1625 ISK per 500 m3 launch, roughly equivalent to the 1500 ISK that you pay today for doing a max-capacity CC launch. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
628
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 19:01:00 -
[1673] - Quote
bilingi wrote:Really? Only ones i see supporting it are RMT supporters like War Kitten.. Or some alternate posting for a main in a big corp,,,, Yea thats what ccp needs to do drive away even more people.
ROFL
Oh, I'm hurt. Grievously wounded by your RMT accusation.
Your relevance to the discussion at hand is eclipsed by the ignorance of your remarks. Take a lesson from your buddy Ingvar's playbook...
Ingvar Angst wrote:Now hush and let the adults chat. If you're reading my sig you cannot claim ignorance, only stupidity or apathy, if you don't go VOTE now for CSM7. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 19:21:00 -
[1674] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: One possibility would be to force the expenditure of some sort of fuel in exchange for not using the POCO. Liquid Ozone would be a good bet as that is already used as a cyno fuel. Simply make it so that every CC launch consumes N units of fuel out of your ship's cargo bay. A good number might be 1 unit of Liquid Ozone for every 100m3 (or fraction of 100m3) that you are launching with a minimum of 5 units used.
Interesting idea. But LO is already used for too many things (POS, cynos, JBs), while it's little brother, heavy water, is only used for POS. It would be better to use that instead, to balance supply and demand a bit.
Of course, RP-wise, it's hard to explain how sending something up from the planet consumes some in-space resource. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 19:37:00 -
[1675] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote: Interesting idea. But LO is already used for too many things (POS, cynos, JBs), while it's little brother, heavy water, is only used for POS. It would be better to use that instead, to balance supply and demand a bit.
Of course, RP-wise, it's hard to explain how sending something up from the planet consumes some in-space resource.
Aye, heavy water would be good as well.
Lore-wise... you're creating a mini-cyno? If we could import small amounts of material down to the planet without using a customs office, then we wouldn't need to tap dance around the lore issues.
Maybe a "fuel cannister" that you load into a "fuel ejector" module that fits in a high-slot, which delivers fuel down to the Command Center. Get within 1M km of the planet, fire off the cannister and it then appears in your command center.
The issues with import has to do with the way the server code works... right now, you have (2) options for something in your cargo hold and no real way of getting stuff down to the planet:
- Eject (which creates a jetcan) - Launch for corp (for things which are anchorable)
Another possibility would be a high-slot module where you target a jetcan full of material and use that high-slot module to consume fuel and send it down to your command center. You would have to load the high slot module with the fuel (just like ammo) and the jetcan would have to not have more then what would fit into the command center. Target the jetcan, click the module, stuff ends up in your command center.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 20:43:00 -
[1676] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Edart eno wrote: The simple fact of the matter is that PI was from the start of intended to be for individual players and after this... It won't be anymore.
Please link to a dev blog or official blue response that says that, otherwise stop with that line of reasoning. PI was always intended to be a source of conflict (almost the entire reason for DUST, besides the 'cash in on console FPS' bandwagon). This concept just advances us one more step along the road towards making it a fight over resources, just like moon mining (which also require fixed assets). And when it comes to conflict, lone wolves only survive by being crafty, sneaky, and staying away from the large packs and busy areas. Which, for PI, means using customs center launches or setting up shop in a very quiet system.
Ahem.. you mean "Command Center launches"
... I'm glad there are posters that are maintaining a rational perspective - for myself I'm waiting for the new Devblog on PCO before I try to post anymore 'academic' arguements.
*( I lol'ed when my 'Verticle' Post was removed - but I understand why... Omen is really nice... ) |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 22:16:00 -
[1677] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:olsted wrote:So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes).
Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point?
Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here.
(unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!"
Thanks, -O. We have a follow up devblog drafted and are just waiting on confirmation to some changes before releasing more details. No promises, but maybe early next week? Besides, you should be busy gawking over new BCs anyway
I see what you did there! Trying to distract us with shiny ships. Shame on you, CCP.
But, I hear you're making a new raven, and this makes me happy :D
Now hurry up with this new dev blog. I want to see proof that you do listen. ^^ |
Feffri
Kroll's Legion Templis Dragonaors
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 02:29:00 -
[1678] - Quote
You've got to be ******* kidding me! Lets just let ******* goons and the rest of the big alliances just control every ******* thing in eve. WTF is wrong with you ccp first you give them the moons now they get the ******* planets too why don't you just tell all small corps go go **** themselves! |
Feffri
Kroll's Legion Templis Dragonaors
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 05:28:00 -
[1679] - Quote
i'm actually pissed i'm in a small corp and don't know how we're going to afford our poses after null sec alliances take over all our planets
Edit: Inappropriate parts removed, CCP Phantom |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 17:21:00 -
[1680] - Quote
Feffri wrote:i'm actually pissed
Edit: Inappropriate parts removed, CCP Phantom
Your pic shows it... Toillet is down the hall in case your gonna hurl k?
|
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
200
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 21:43:00 -
[1681] - Quote
The Customs Office Gantry and CO upgrade costs are far too small for their size and operation this structure performs. Costs should be increased tenfold. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 22:30:00 -
[1682] - Quote
pmchem wrote:The Customs Office Gantry and CO upgrade costs are far too small for their size and operation this structure performs. Costs should be increased tenfold.
Size - but what about eHP -- these things are gonna get downed faster than cotton candy in the hands of a fat kid!
Easy replacement is good. |
Silva Krell
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 02:33:00 -
[1683] - Quote
Can youmake it so that the front on PI scans gets larger? I enlarge all the font's pn my chat windows and due to my poor eyesight have to guess at the numbers on my extractors for PI. |
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 21:13:00 -
[1684] - Quote
Snowflake Tem wrote:damn. just finished moving all my PI stuff to lowsec - risky as it is. now i have to worry about someone else's insane tolling fees? or failing that maintain a sitting duck. something i've managed to avoid thus far.
I feel the same way, and like you have my stuff in low sec... on the other hand i want theme to be player owned if for no other reason then they are made from PL mats and that means there will be more of a demand for them :)
I think the solution is to make sovereignty MEAN something in setting up these things.
Such as: 1. If you are not part of the alliance that has sovereignty you can't make it so anybody can NOT use your CO. 2. If you are not part of the alliance that has sovereignty you can't charge quite so high of taxes (pick something lesser than 100%).
These would take care of the low sec issues and NPC 0.0. To add some more flavor to it, you could have the max taxes (and min taxes?) set by the alliance with the sovereignty (NPC or PC controlled) so that its different in amarr space then in NPC 0.0 or even Caldarie space... and Player controlled space would be all over the map.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that doing this change would be keeping in line with how supposedly NULL SEC is supposed to be where you can get the most profit etc with any activity... or at least that's the goal.
EDIT 2: If a system does not have any sovereignty than there would be no restrictions. |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 12:34:00 -
[1685] - Quote
Mishatola wrote:If you are not part of the alliance that has sovereignty you can't make it so anybody can NOT use your CO.
??????????????
Did you try to put a command center on a not-NPC 0.0 planet where you're alliance does not have SOV ? I dont see what pocos would change there ... |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 12:41:00 -
[1686] - Quote
Feffri wrote:i'm actually pissed i'm in a small corp and don't know how we're going to afford our poses after null sec alliances take over all our planets
Edit: Inappropriate parts removed, CCP Phantom
guess the "inappropriate parts" were probably the result of how upset small corps and alliance can be with this Well, YES obviously CCP want to help huge blocks more than ever and let smaller entities become hostages ... maybe after this summer action we will need a winter action to let them know smaller entities are the huge majority of their clients.
|
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 14:22:00 -
[1687] - Quote
Red Zaya wrote:Mishatola wrote:If you are not part of the alliance that has sovereignty you can't make it so anybody can NOT use your CO. ?????????????? Did you try to put a command center on a not-NPC 0.0 planet where you're alliance does not have SOV ? I dont see what pocos would change there ...
Ok - I've only done PI in high and low sec, so i'm taking a guess that you can put CCs in 0.0 space where you want, if you can't my bad. |
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 22:22:00 -
[1688] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Starr Tookus wrote:So this makes setting up your planets for launches important in case jerks run the customs office. I like that.
Question: What kinds of defenses can be installed? Currently: Nothing. You will have to defend your customs office with space ships, (beside the reinforcement). From comments to the blog, we realize there is a worry that all customs offices will be griefed all the time. I promise we will keep an eye on this, but our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc.
Surely you dont really belive that.
Example of a small corp in Wspace with a POS and their PI is 99% aimed at providing fuel items.
Are you seriously expecting them to be able to pay a corp to sit in the WH waiting for POCO's to be attacked. point 1.The attacks could very well occur when the owner corp is offline, so the defender corp may never ger told of the attack in time. as presumably the protecting corp will not get the concorde message. Point 2. If the POCO's get attacked say on average once per week. the merc will get prety bored with the waiting.
Conclusion . We percive you are attempting to drive small corps out of Wspace, you obviusly do not belive they should be able to exist in there, so much for the sand box where you can achieve your goal... This is being masked by a fanciful presumption that these corps will magicaly appear, with no real compensation to the players when or if your idea flops. 1 2 3 or 6 months down the road. are they to simply become casualties of your mistake and swept under the carpet of history. They are the ones who suffer for your experiments. If we experiment and fail we have to pay for our mistakes(fair enough) If you make a balls up of it why the hell should we pay for your mistakes?
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 23:12:00 -
[1689] - Quote
D'Kelle wrote:[quote=CCP Omen]Are you seriously expecting them to be able to pay a corp to sit in the WH waiting for POCO's to be attacked. point 1.The attacks could very well occur when the owner corp is offline, so the defender corp may never ger told of the attack in time. as presumably the protecting corp will not get the concorde message. Point 2. If the POCO's get attacked say on average once per week. the merc will get prety bored with the waiting.
Short reply: Reinforcement mechanics. Learn about them.
Long reply: After the initial attack, you have 24 hours warning to organize your defense for the actual fight, the one that counts. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 08:38:00 -
[1690] - Quote
Mishatola wrote:Ok - I've only done PI in high and low sec, so i'm taking a guess that you can put CCs in 0.0 space where you want, if you can't my bad.
If you are in player controlled 0.0 you can NOT put any command center on any planet if you (i mean your alliance or corporation) dont have the sov on the system.
And what is very funny is that i didnt see ANY comment about this (well, so long thread, maybe i missed something, if so i apologize).
Should we understand that, while you cant put a command center in such areas because you dont have the sov, you will be able btw to put a POCO ? Which means that POCOs become a kind of "weapon" to disturb the owning entity's PI on the planets they own ? MiniSBU lol !
Or should we understand that POCOs will be ruled as CC, so you wont be able to put a POCO if you dont have the sov, which means POCOs stay standard infrastructure installations as they are supposed to be ?
OR SHOULD WE UNDERSTAND THAT CCP JUST FORGOT TO HAVE ANY REFLEXION ABOUT THIS ? |
|
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 09:09:00 -
[1691] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:D'Kelle wrote:[quote=CCP Omen]Are you seriously expecting them to be able to pay a corp to sit in the WH waiting for POCO's to be attacked. point 1.The attacks could very well occur when the owner corp is offline, so the defender corp may never ger told of the attack in time. as presumably the protecting corp will not get the concorde message. Point 2. If the POCO's get attacked say on average once per week. the merc will get prety bored with the waiting.
Short reply: Reinforcement mechanics. Learn about them. Long reply: After the initial attack, you have 24 hours warning to organize your defense for the actual fight, the one that counts.
Technical good answer BUT :
- 1 - This changes nothing to the fact that nobody will rent mercs to protect POCOs because it will be too expensive
- 2 - This changes nothing to the fact that "waiting for POCOs agression" will be heavily boring
- 3 - This changes nothing to the fact that protecting your POCOs will be daaaaaaamnt crazy impossible specific job in player controlled 0.0 (think about the number of planets, so the number of POCOs, you could have with only 3 systems ....) ... the result will be sov owners will go on has they allready do, hunting undesirables to kick them out from their sovs, there wont be "POCOs specific protection fleets" ... i will not talk about low sec, there all this would just be a fail
So this changes nothing to the fact that 1 + 2 + 3 means POCOs will bring nothing in gameplay except crazy more work to maintain PI except in highsec AND only huge alliances will be able to have POCOs and keep them safe in null and low sec.
The ONLY way to change this would be to give POCOs the ability to have defences, which means make them kind of little POSes, anyway due to fuel cost the result would still be "the richer you are the richer you will be".
Once again, imho all this blahblahblah about gameplay is just a dust cloud to hide the real purpose of POCOs which is break down small alliances/corporations/lonely players PI in null and low sec and prevent them from building PLEXes ingame. And it works atm, just look at PI's and PLEX's price on the market since POCOs are discussed here ... the ONLY players who could take advantage from POCOs are the members of huge blocks. Is this what the Eve community wants??? Well, if yes, i have nothing more to say. |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 09:27:00 -
[1692] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: our hope is that a new type of players/corporations can emerge that are paid to protect customs office etc
LOL ... i guess you asked all mercs corporations the fees they take for any action and then you made a serious business plan that shown you it was possible to make profitable PI in such conditions ??? |
Paski
Alchemy Enterprises Corporation
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 10:00:00 -
[1693] - Quote
can we just get on with this, make your amendments and publish so we can get on with our stuff
and it has to be said that of all the exciting and major annoucments that have been made recently in a very obvious focus by CCP to support FiS, that this one has the worst planned and the most badly thought through, topped off by the most arrogant attitude I have seen by a dev, overall a very unimpressive display |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 15:24:00 -
[1694] - Quote
So I see there will be some reduction in fuel costs for POS's
This change should be interesting in how it impacts demand for P1, P2, and P3 POS fuels? |
Rui Siyuan
The Order of the Oar P R I M E
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 16:04:00 -
[1695] - Quote
We know how much these POCO BPCs are going to cost, LP and ISK-wise. But how many runs will they each carry? |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 16:37:00 -
[1696] - Quote
Nullabor - any updates to report? There are a lot of REAL concerns here that seem to be getting ignored. For one, I really can't believe you think simply removing all the customs offices without allowing any sort of ramp up time for people to buy the BPs, manufacture the PCOs and move them into place is in any way a good idea. You're simply breaking PI during what may be a long transition cycle for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You're really screwing a ton of people over heavily if you follow that ill-advised path to destruction. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Tas Nok
Hedion University Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 17:39:00 -
[1697] - Quote
Really looking for and awaiting the Dev response to how this will be changed WRT player feedback in this thread.
the POS fuel changes came out roughly 24hrs ago and we've already seen that get fixed into something that is simpler but doesn't nerf faction towers to S***
waiting for the same sort of common sense here? PLS?
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 18:01:00 -
[1698] - Quote
Tas Nok wrote:Really looking for and awaiting the Dev response to how this will be changed WRT player feedback in this thread.
the POS fuel changes came out roughly 24hrs ago and we've already seen that get fixed into something that is simpler but doesn't nerf faction towers to S***
waiting for the same sort of common sense here? PLS?
My personal hope is that they're going back to the drawing board a bit - which is why we haven't heard anything in a week. Given how close it is now to expansion release day, I wouldn't be surprised if they push it off until the next big update after the initial expansion patch.
The POS fuel changes were mostly just tweaks to the numbers - the basic concept didn't change. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 18:09:00 -
[1699] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Tas Nok wrote:Really looking for and awaiting the Dev response to how this will be changed WRT player feedback in this thread.
the POS fuel changes came out roughly 24hrs ago and we've already seen that get fixed into something that is simpler but doesn't nerf faction towers to S***
waiting for the same sort of common sense here? PLS?
My personal hope is that they're going back to the drawing board a bit - which is why we haven't heard anything in a week. Given how close it is now to expansion release day, I wouldn't be surprised if they push it off until the next big update after the initial expansion patch. The POS fuel changes were mostly just tweaks to the numbers - the basic concept didn't change.
I hope you're right on this one. I could feel the changes sneaking up on me from behind, and the Nex is all out of vaseline. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
khazak mokl
Black Viper Nomads
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 19:24:00 -
[1700] - Quote
I still cant believe after 86 pages that people are complaining about not having enough time to get the materials and BPC for the customs offices. I am not a member of a mega corp or alliance and I can see the benefits already and different ways to make isk. Change comes to us all and you have to adapt or die. Its time to stop crying and toughen up. Alot of this moaning is because people think they could not make as much isk as resourses will have more compatition but this will drive up the prices so even if you harvest less the price you get paid at market is more and it balances out. If you want to earn even more you have to venture out into unprotected space and danger. You risk more so your rewards are more in relation. Just like in the real world. If you want to play in cuddly-wuddly -ville and be nice and safe I suggest playing some other game.
EVE's main draw for me is there is consequences to your actions and if you die you experience physical and monatary loss and not just respawn at a temple or some crap and have to just walk over to your corpse and reclaim all your gear.
I say bring on the proposed changes
|
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Oreth Te
NOVA TECH Hephaestus Forge Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 20:15:00 -
[1701] - Quote
Red Zaya wrote:Feffri wrote:i'm actually pissed i'm in a small corp and don't know how we're going to afford our poses after null sec alliances take over all our planets
Edit: Inappropriate parts removed, CCP Phantom guess the "inappropriate parts" were probably the result of how upset small corps and alliance can be with this Well, YES obviously CCP want to help huge blocks more than ever and let smaller entities become hostages ... maybe after this summer action we will need a winter action to let them know smaller entities are the huge majority of their clients.
I have to agree.
However, as I understand this is to allow players more scope and interaction to develop and integrate the PI aspect more into EVE However CCP appear to have totally forgotten about the Wspace communities Factual example: - a small Corp of say 5 or 6 running a POS in Wspace(A full Tower mind not one of the Mickey Mouse ones) who have been skilful and hardy enough to setup shop in a WH (Which allegedly is what EVE and its renowned sand box is all about).this Corp who's PI is predominantly focused on providing fuel Items for their Tower. (Not all some have to be produced or bought elsewhere (from any excesses produced) due to the planetary types in said WH). Point :- After the massive layout of costs to ensure that the POCOGÇÖs can be produced if they in fact can make them before they run out of fuel reserves. Where do CCP expect WSpacerGÇÖs to get passing trade from to collect revenue from in the WH. The only passing Pilots are there to shoot stuff either them or the Sleepers (which is just as it should be) thatGÇÖs fine and accepted by all They sure are not going to get ANY of them to be interested in PI. So the WSpacerGÇÖs will never get any benefit from a POCOGÇÖs in Wspace. I am talking about the deeper communities here. So in effect thePOCOGÇÖs are totally pointless and fruitless in WSpace.
A possibility could be that they should be Concorde deployed and owned but capable of being disabled by a reasonable concerted attack giving a bounty to those attacking it as Concorde cannot reach Wspace. That way the WSpacerGÇÖs can be still impacted upon by the PVP groups but not driven out business by CCPGÇÖs way of switching all COGÇÖs off in the blink of an eye then saying go to it and it forces the resident Corp to devote some time in repairing them and brining them back on line to continue their PI. The resident Corp can also get the chance to fight back either during the onslaught Or if the group decide to log out stay there for more opportune moments which already happens the PVP can occur on any given time or day keeping everyone on their toes however, the balance is that when the WH closes they too have to scan a new exit to replenish supplies to continue or withdraw and their scanning ships can be a risk much more of an exciting scenario when everyone gets a fair share of the risk and gain.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 20:51:00 -
[1702] - Quote
Rui Siyuan wrote:We know how much these POCO BPCs are going to cost, LP and ISK-wise. But how many runs will they each carry?
My money is on 1 run.... |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 22:37:00 -
[1703] - Quote
I still believe the change as currently planned is way wrong for low sec. Low sec COs need to stay some variation of NPC controlled otherwise all they are is a the new roaming pirate gank hobby and little guy PI in low sec is over. Done like dinner.
Issler |
Nose ElGrande
Swarm Of Locusts
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 04:39:00 -
[1704] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:olsted wrote:So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes).
Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point?
Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here.
(unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!"
Thanks, -O. We have a follow up devblog drafted and are just waiting on confirmation to some changes before releasing more details. No promises, but maybe early next week? Besides, you should be busy gawking over new BCs anyway
It is early midweek. We have gawked at the BCs, they did not captivate us as much as the POCO proposal...
Will CCP allow the rollout to be controlled by the players by allowing the destruction of NPC COs?
Will CCP realize that the model of P2-P4 assembly in HS is *not* a universal practice and that many *do* complete their products on LS/0.0/WH planets and then ship them to market?
Will CCP permit the anchoring of defensive arrays to deter random bashing of POCOs, and give a more reasoned response than 'it will stimulate small group PvP' which doesn't apply in WHs.
Will CCP explain why a Corp owned and operated POCO cannot include Corp/group accessable hangers? Specifically why this is so diffficult to include.
We welcome your response and hope it is as reasonable as the POS fuel proposal one was.
Thanks!
|
Zhan Kor
Core Systems Astronautics
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 13:03:00 -
[1705] - Quote
Who's going to run everything? ONLY the most powerful PC Organizations!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( Cutting the rest of us out . Thanx CCP |
Zeronic
Zero Core Labs United Abominations
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 16:18:00 -
[1706] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Nullabor - any updates to report? There are a lot of REAL concerns here that seem to be getting ignored. For one, I really can't believe you think simply removing all the customs offices without allowing any sort of ramp up time for people to buy the BPs, manufacture the PCOs and move them into place is in any way a good idea. You're simply breaking PI during what may be a long transition cycle for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You're really screwing a ton of people over heavily if you follow that ill-advised path to destruction.
I have to agree 200%.
The Concord ones should be left in place. As Planet get their new POCO installed, the Concord ones go offline and at down time all of it material are send to the closest station a pilot has a ship in.
Thou I think it should go another way. Where player invest in the Concord Custom Office, allowing for it to have larger storage and remote launching (even if you need an additional skill). POCO is not a bad idea, just it doesn't fit in the bigger picture of internet spaceships. |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1078
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 19:25:00 -
[1707] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Nullabor - any updates to report? There are a lot of REAL concerns here that seem to be getting ignored. For one, I really can't believe you think simply removing all the customs offices without allowing any sort of ramp up time for people to buy the BPs, manufacture the PCOs and move them into place is in any way a good idea. You're simply breaking PI during what may be a long transition cycle for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You're really screwing a ton of people over heavily if you follow that ill-advised path to destruction.
Just to chime in and mentioning that this thread isn't forgotten or abandoned by the devs. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 19:33:00 -
[1708] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Nullabor - any updates to report? There are a lot of REAL concerns here that seem to be getting ignored. For one, I really can't believe you think simply removing all the customs offices without allowing any sort of ramp up time for people to buy the BPs, manufacture the PCOs and move them into place is in any way a good idea. You're simply breaking PI during what may be a long transition cycle for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You're really screwing a ton of people over heavily if you follow that ill-advised path to destruction. Just to chime in and mentioning that this thread isn't forgotten or abandoned by the devs.
Thank you for that, it's appreciated. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 20:41:00 -
[1709] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Nullabor - any updates to report? There are a lot of REAL concerns here that seem to be getting ignored. For one, I really can't believe you think simply removing all the customs offices without allowing any sort of ramp up time for people to buy the BPs, manufacture the PCOs and move them into place is in any way a good idea. You're simply breaking PI during what may be a long transition cycle for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You're really screwing a ton of people over heavily if you follow that ill-advised path to destruction. Just to chime in and mentioning that this thread isn't forgotten or abandoned by the devs. Then maybe you can explain why you're making POS fuel management easier while simultaneously making PI for making said POS fuel horribly complicated and bad for all the POS-owners out there? I'm all for more things being player controlled, but this idea doesn't bring anything good to the game.
A recurring theme in the classes EVE-University has regarding nulsec and sov mechanics (with guest lecturers from the big nulsec alliances) is that attacking structures is boring as all hell. Why add another boring structure with another boring reinforcement timer? I really want to know the reason for this. It makes no sense right now. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 20:53:00 -
[1710] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Nullabor - any updates to report? There are a lot of REAL concerns here that seem to be getting ignored. For one, I really can't believe you think simply removing all the customs offices without allowing any sort of ramp up time for people to buy the BPs, manufacture the PCOs and move them into place is in any way a good idea. You're simply breaking PI during what may be a long transition cycle for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You're really screwing a ton of people over heavily if you follow that ill-advised path to destruction. Just to chime in and mentioning that this thread isn't forgotten or abandoned by the devs. It may not have been forgotten or abandoned by the community team or CCP Nullarbor. But CCP Omen is the one who can provide actual design answers, and he stopped replying to this thread 5 hours after it was published.
The contrast with the hybrid and pos fuel threads is striking and it reminds me of CCP's worst times. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 21:27:00 -
[1711] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote: It may not have been forgotten or abandoned by the community team or CCP Nullarbor. But CCP Omen is the one who can provide actual design answers, and he stopped replying to this thread 5 hours after it was published.
The contrast with the hybrid and pos fuel threads is striking and it reminds me of CCP's worst times.
Most of the feedback in the POS fuel thread is balance issues - and basically just tweaking some numbers. This is a much more complex issue. So depending on how much they have to rework or reconsider, you're not going to get immediate answers.
(Although it would be nice if the BPOs could be seeded a month or so ahead of any planned change-over, at a minimum.) |
Nemesis Factor
Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 00:25:00 -
[1712] - Quote
Now, I don't know a lot about WH living, but I was under the assumption there were never any customs offices in WH space, in which case, what the hell is changing?
If there ARE customs offices in WH space, then they should have never been there. It doesn't make any sense. the DED comes in and erects stations around WH planets? There is no population or industry there, WHY. |
Marcus Henik
Dark Nebula Academy O X I D E
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 00:35:00 -
[1713] - Quote
Without wading through 80 pages of posts. #1 as a w space pi guy, no guns no way. These things are way to expensive and way to vunerable. #2 needs to be in high sec, the cash flow from certain planets would mean epic pew pew from magor corps and alliances. It's very hard to play station games when the station is out of reach. It could make high sec warfare fun again. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 02:54:00 -
[1714] - Quote
Nemesis Factor wrote:Now, I don't know a lot about WH living, but I was under the assumption there were never any customs offices in WH space, in which case, what the hell is changing?
If there ARE customs offices in WH space, then they should have never been there. It doesn't make any sense. the DED comes in and erects stations around WH planets? There is no population or industry there, WHY.
There are indeed customs offices, and they're necessary due to the inability of your rocket launch mechanics to move not only significant amounts of materials off planet, but the inability to launch materials to planets for further refining. It's an example where necessity is greater than a twitch in someone's lore. Without customs offices PI in wormholes grinds to a halt. That's the major problem with the current idea of simply removing them cold turkey like that... it completely breaks PI production in wormholes. Robotics, for example, become impossible. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 13:03:00 -
[1715] - Quote
Can we be given a follow up blog on this? Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 15:48:00 -
[1716] - Quote
So much good news coming out...
Between GCC remote repping changes, and ingame fitting screen DPS statistic addition ...
Don't drop the good news ball Team Pi! |
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 08:09:00 -
[1717] - Quote
Nemesis Factor wrote:Now, I don't know a lot about WH living, but I was under the assumption there were never any customs offices in WH space, in which case, what the hell is changing?
If there ARE customs offices in WH space, then they should have never been there. It doesn't make any sense. the DED comes in and erects stations around WH planets? There is no population or industry there, WHY.
Yes there are CO, s presumably created from the original Nanite builder seeds initially sent into Empire and Null sec space, programmed to seek out planets and initiate a build sequence replicate and move on to the next planet. I guess some have been drawn into WH's over time and continued their work.
You must have a very immature and limited experience / view of nature in general and in respect of the EVE universe, for your information there are Cultures, Communities and Populations in Wspace, just not many space faring ones, except for us WSpacers of course who pride ourselves in surviving there.
As for Empire and Nul sec they have their full bounty of Barren, Gaseous, Arctic, Plasma and Lava Type Planets and whilst I donGÇÖt doubt some manage to develop some forms of life of their own Most are just that, simply planets without Communities for our use. So not much difference really
Go live there for a few months living in them and see if you can hack it :) then come on here and comment. |
Dr Prometheus
Gears of Construction Gears Confederation
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 12:17:00 -
[1718] - Quote
Probaly already suggested;
But because of the PCO`s you got 2 options; build one, or use one from another dude, or the rocket; how about a third option?
I call it Primae. (Yes that one.) It has everything you want for this. So why not release bleuprints for him, place it between the cargo space of a rocket and PCO. (The Primea will interact almost instantly with the surface.)
In this case you have a in my eyes win-win situation;
1. You dont have to use "hostile" PCO`s 2. You dont have to use the crampy little rocket. 3. It a dedicated PI ship. And fits between the rocket and PCO
To make people use the Primea you should make him the only ship able to transport PI stuff. (As already done in the "free" Primea)
People get a "new" ship. Builders will get a new ship to build, Miners will get a new ship to do PI with.
So in other words; You can choose between "unsafe" rocket launch with tiny cargo. (expensive) A more safer Primea with larger cargohold and ability to pace command centers. (less expensive but still costly and no tank.) Or the "safe" PCO with largest cargohold. (Cheapest, but the PCO owner could ask a fee of 100%.) Dude, where is my Charon? |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 13:54:00 -
[1719] - Quote
Dr Prometheus wrote:
Probaly already suggested;
But because of the PCO`s you got 2 options; build one, or use one from another dude, or the rocket; how about a third option?
I call it Primae. (Yes that one.) It has everything you want for this. So why not release bleuprints for him, place it between the cargo space of a rocket and PCO. (The Primea will interact almost instantly with the surface.)
In this case you have a in my eyes win-win situation;
1. You dont have to use "hostile" PCO`s 2. You dont have to use the crampy little rocket. 3. It a dedicated PI ship. And fits between the rocket and PCO
To make people use the Primea you should make him the only ship able to transport PI stuff. (As already done in the "free" Primea)
People get a "new" ship. Builders will get a new ship to build, Miners will get a new ship to do PI with.
So in other words; You can choose between "unsafe" rocket launch with tiny cargo. (expensive) A more safer Primea with larger cargohold and ability to pace command centers. (less expensive but still costly and no tank.) Or the "safe" PCO with largest cargohold. (Cheapest, but the PCO owner could ask a fee of 100%.)
I didn't get it?
Are you suggesting that the Launch Pad target a Primea directly in orbit of a planet?
If so its a non-starter as it is completely anathema to the PCO paradigm shift, where PCO's become a source of political contention in EVE around planets. |
Dr Prometheus
Gears of Construction Gears Confederation
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 14:09:00 -
[1720] - Quote
No, a Primea should orbit the planet, and able to lauch a rocket in a x km range of the Primea. (instead of lanchin and warping to it.) And a bit bigger rocket. Dude, where is my Charon? |
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:37:00 -
[1721] - Quote
While not judging your idea, I have no comment on the +/- of the idea.
I would just wonder what community function this would serve and/or problem it helps solve, since it would require significant additional coding beyond what has already been iterated? |
Dr Prometheus
Gears of Construction Gears Confederation
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 19:42:00 -
[1722] - Quote
Ok i stand corrected as i looked at what i said, and it sense no make. Will rethink the idea and post a better one :P Dude, where is my Charon? |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.12 05:01:00 -
[1723] - Quote
Dr Prometheus wrote:Ok i stand corrected as i looked at what i said, and it sense no make. Will rethink the idea and post a better one :P
Was that a threat or a promise? jk
We'll be waiting...
Speaking of waiting.... seems Team Pi is still on the devblog drawing board - this is either a very good sign, or indications that we have much much to fear....
|
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1078
|
Posted - 2011.11.12 11:14:00 -
[1724] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Can we be given a follow up blog on this?
Look to its coming on the first light of the third day, at dawn look to the ... err, yes, early next week!
Also big thanks to the Team Pi and their extra work in many additional night shifts. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.12 16:25:00 -
[1725] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Unforgiven Storm wrote:Can we be given a follow up blog on this? Look to its coming on the first light of the third day, at dawn look to the ... err, yes, early next week! Also big thanks to the Team Pi and their extra work in many additional night shifts.
Any hints or tidbits to share? Will I finally sleep at night again? (I think my concerns have been obvious... ) Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.12 18:39:00 -
[1726] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Unforgiven Storm wrote:Can we be given a follow up blog on this? Look to its coming on the first light of the third day, at dawn look to the ... err, yes, early next week! Also big thanks to the Team Pi and their extra work in many additional night shifts.
North Star....
Well we'll see if it comes on Wednesday |
Vjorn Angannon
Fleet Escort Services Exotic Matter Coalition
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.13 21:32:00 -
[1727] - Quote
I looked thru all the Dev posts but didn't see this question;
In the past, Co's were put up upon the installment of the first planetary launchpad.
When the old CO's go bye-bye, what happens to all the launchpads already installed? Do they go poof as well? or will they remain and basically act as a larger storage?
Will launchpads be able to be installed on a planet with no CO, after the change? |
Davo OHno
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 00:27:00 -
[1728] - Quote
I have to say...
I HATE THIS IDEA. I am sure it was suggested by a large corp/alliance controlling multiple systems. This is going to have the opposite effect that is intended. In no way is it going to possibbly encourage players, or corps, to venture into low/null sec to establish Customs Office. If anything, this is a deterrant to those that wish to do so. The small aspiring corporations would have to invest far to many assets to even possibly protect it. It has virtually the same defenses as a small POS, and that is basically nothing.
CCP... You said you were going to focus on Internet Spaceships again. I think you are off target on this one.
We play EVE to fly spaceships. PI was one way of generating passive income to fund our space ship habit. This will only require us to spend more time and effort attempting to earn isk than fly ships.
The major corporations/alliances already have too much influence in the game. Now you hand them another freebie. This will just solidify their positions by having control of more of the Eve assets.
Hope you are ready to watch your subscriber numbers drop again.
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
200
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 06:59:00 -
[1729] - Quote
I went through and got some numbers on sisi regarding highsec CO changes and nullsec POCOs. Highsec COs have indeed had all their import/export taxes doubled. The sisi export tax rate is 200 isk/m3 or 1200 isk/u for p3's (like robo), and 12 isk/m3 or 18 isk/u for p2's (like coolant). This corresponds to a "10%" tax rate in highsec on sisi. The sisi tax rate is essentially a joke number: it's based on a reference value that doesn't place any importance on the "market value" or "maximizing profit" aspects of the game at all. If we assume the p3 is Robotics (70k isk/u) and that the p2 (say, Mech Parts) is worth 10k isk/u, then the p3 tax rate is actually 1.7% and the p2 tax rate is a laughable 0.18% based on market values.
With current market prices, a POCO costs about 100m isk to fully deploy/upgrade (including BPC LP value). Unfortunately, the tax rate can not be set above 100%. Since the highsec values correspond to "10%", just imagine highsec x10 as the highest tax you can set on a POCO. If you have reds set to 100% tax rates and the reds are exporting p1s or p2s, they aren't going to care about the miniscule tax. On p3's a 100% tax rate is actually a fairly sizable hit, but not enough to stop a user if they don't have other easily accessible options, because what the heck, "my time is free". A 100% tax rate nullsec POCO is almost certainly more profitable than a highsec POCO doing extraction just because of nullsec abundancies. p1 extraction in nullsec is laughably cheap even at "100%" POCO tax rate. It's about 0.912 isk/u, which if you're extracting chiral corresponds to about a .12% market tax rate. It can essentially be ignored.
What does this mean for the overall market? Let's look at daily Jita volumes and assume an average "20%" tax rate for nullsec/lowsec POCOs. If half the PI supply comes from nullsec/lowsec, we can guesstimate how much prices should rise after an equilibrium is reached -- when POCOs have been deployed on all planets players have interest in, and when the market has evened out so that producers are making about as much profit (in isk/u) as they are now. Yeah, not totally realistic, but w/e it makes for an easier estimating. The rise is not that much, only about 1200 isk/u based on pure export value ( surprised? :math: ) for Robo, plus whatever trickle-up effect you get from more expensive p1/p2 supply and import costs. Call it about 2,000 isk/u overall. In short, if nullsec/lowsec taxes are not pretty much all set to 100%, the effect JUST FROM TAX CHANGES will not be a big deal. If everyone sets POCO tax rates to 100%, the effect is more amusing -- over a 10% rise in price -- but since most p3s are made in highsec that scenario is unrealistic. People buying PI goods to build POCOs and the disruption as POCOs are set up or fought over will have a much greater near-term impact on the PI market. Since PI is boring, it's likely that the near-term spike could be quite long lived. But any changes in price should be attributed to the setup and fighting over POCOs themselves, not to tax changes.
Can an alliance make isk from taxing POCOs in their region? Let's assume it supplies the entire Jita market with enriched uranium. That's about 1m units/day. At 100% tax rates (heh), that would be about 180m isk/day for the alliance, or 5.4b/month. That's a ridiculous scenario and it's still only a fraction of a tech moon. Basically, POCOs are terrible for alliance income until their handling of taxes is SUBSTANTIALLY changed by CCP, or the reference values for taxes reset way, way upward. Oh, and if your "20%" tax rate POCO has users exporting 100,000 units of p2s PER DAY (heh), it will still take a month to recoup costs of putting it there in the first place.
WHAT CAN BE DONE? Well, as I mentioned in two older, less-wordy posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=208048#post208048 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=224363#post224363 CCP needs to give the POCO owners greater control over the exact taxes. I would recommend the following:
FIRST: reset the default "reference tax values" to represent full Winter 2011 market value of the average good for that tier, instead of the fantasy values they currently have. This would have two immediate effects: increasing the isk paid by users of highsec COs (an increase of an isk SINK, which your economist should love), and increasing the range of isk values over which POCOs can be taxed. This is the easy, no-brainer option.
SECOND: give the POCO owner the ability to change those "reference tax values", per tier (p0/p1/p2/p4 goods). This is an expansion of the current fairly nice POCO configuration menu and would allow POCO owners total flexibility in setting their tax rates, saving future game balance headaches. Just let the players handle the market, as it should be. Note: if allowing different reference values would screw up your interface for displaying tax rates to the user, then allow tax rates over 100% (and adjust default reference values!).
If CCP does not do this, there are SERIOUS FUTURE GAME DESIGN PROBLEMS which will crop up: Problem 1: nobody likes POCOs. Corporate joes bug their corp CEO or alliance CEO to put POCOs up, because PI is important to some poor people. However, the corps and alliances hate the things because they can not provide good income, have to be deployed in dozens/hundreds of places, and sometimes get shot at. They are Not Fun. Problem 2: nobody cares about POCOs. If they don't generate corp/alliance income, and if they're trivial to replace, nobody is going to bother to reinforce them, or defend/kill them when they are somehow reinforced.
It's clear POCOs are going to be the fundamental interface between Eve and DUST 514. Please don't screw up their economics, or DUST will fail. That's something CCP cannot afford. Please change POCOs before release. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 09:07:00 -
[1730] - Quote
Vjorn Angannon wrote:I looked thru all the Dev posts but didn't see this question;
In the past, Co's were put up upon the installment of the first planetary launchpad.
When the old CO's go bye-bye, what happens to all the launchpads already installed? Do they go poof as well? or will they remain and basically act as a larger storage?
Will launchpads be able to be installed on a planet with no CO, after the change?
Launchpads won't pop
If you have enough CPU and PG you can install a Launch pad even if there is no PCO/ CO
|
|
Potato IQ
Doomheim
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 11:12:00 -
[1731] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Launchpads won't pop
If you have enough CPU and PG you can install a Launch pad even if there is no PCO/ CO
Will be a flurry of activity just before it goes live ensuring youGÇÖve cleared your storage medium and the COGÇÖs, so happy hunting
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 14:31:00 -
[1732] - Quote
Jeepers Scooby! Walk away from the forums for a few weeks and this thread balloons into near-AnomalyGate proportions.
Tons of interesting discussion regarding taxation and the micro / macro game design theory surrounding POCOs, but the underlying reason for this change seems to be under-represented:
PI was introduced a year and a half ago as a means for generating a high dependency upon Planetary-based resources so that DUST 514 combat will have relevance to space ship pilots.
CCP has successfully orchestrated this dependency, looking at this thread.
CCP will do *anything* they deem necessary from a game design perspective to ensure that DUST 514 has content. We might as well be cognizant of that fact and move on.
I think that players should also be asking themselves if they truly want to be dependent upon passive income and POS fuel from sources that may also be impacted by the PS3 console crowd. If not, then find other means to generate income and / or buy your fuels from the markets. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Vjorn Angannon
Fleet Escort Services Exotic Matter Coalition
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 14:56:00 -
[1733] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Vjorn Angannon wrote:I looked thru all the Dev posts but didn't see this question;
In the past, Co's were put up upon the installment of the first planetary launchpad.
When the old CO's go bye-bye, what happens to all the launchpads already installed? Do they go poof as well? or will they remain and basically act as a larger storage?
Will launchpads be able to be installed on a planet with no CO, after the change? Launchpads won't pop If you have enough CPU and PG you can install a Launch pad even if there is no PCO/ CO
TYVM Kassasis |
zxsteel
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:51:00 -
[1734] - Quote
Dream wondering,
In the future will the new Player owned custom office replace the old style of stations in game?
Corp, able to install his own cheap side station dock up and undock, planet side view! hope to see this soon! |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:45:00 -
[1735] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Jeepers Scooby! Walk away from the forums for a few weeks and this thread balloons into near-AnomalyGate proportions.
Tons of interesting discussion regarding taxation and the micro / macro game design theory surrounding POCOs, but the underlying reason for this change seems to be under-represented:
PI was introduced a year and a half ago as a means for generating a high dependency upon Planetary-based resources so that DUST 514 combat will have relevance to space ship pilots.
CCP has successfully orchestrated this dependency, looking at this thread.
CCP will do *anything* they deem necessary from a game design perspective to ensure that DUST 514 has content. We might as well be cognizant of that fact and move on.
I think that players should also be asking themselves if they truly want to be dependent upon passive income and POS fuel from sources that may also be impacted by the PS3 console crowd. If not, then find other means to generate income and / or buy your fuels from the markets.
You forget that far too many people, possibly myself included, will decide that if our most enjoyed playstyle (wormholes in this case, high dependancy on PI fuels) winds up becoming overly dependant on things we have no control over we'll simply consider other games instead. The one thing I can do in this game right now with little to no interference from others is create the PI pos fuels I need to keep my pos running. It's not too much to ask to allow for at least one little area of independance from the cacophony of the rest of the game.
Sometimes I want a little "me" time. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Zleon Leigh
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 19:51:00 -
[1736] - Quote
So without going through 83 pages to see if this has been asked (apologies if it has)
What happens to my PI that is sitting in NPC customs when this change happens? Disappears? Gets moved to a NPC station nearby?
Can't send it back to the planet because my storage there may be full... and I certainly don't want to be paying another fricken round of export taxes, especially the ridiculous double taxes....
CCP - Congrats on continuing to gank PI producers... did the PI dev do something to **** all the other dev's off?
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 20:12:00 -
[1737] - Quote
The "changes" are on the test server. I deployed a POCO there. There is only 1 change I have noticed from the devblog, and that's the option to set different rates by corp/alliance and standings.
Everything else I could see (build cost, HP, restrictions) remains as it was on the devblog, and CONCORD offices have been removed from lowsec. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 20:41:00 -
[1738] - Quote
CCP!!!!
Please change your plans for low sec COs!!!
You will ruin PI for many and just add new static pirate hobby targets!
You will once again screw the little guy with your low sec CO plans!!!
Issler |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries
82
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 21:13:00 -
[1739] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:The "changes" are on the test server. I deployed a POCO there. There is only 1 change I have noticed from the devblog, and that's the option to set different rates by corp/alliance and standings.
Everything else I could see (build cost, HP, restrictions) remains as it was on the devblog, and CONCORD offices have been removed from lowsec.
Likewise in nul-sec. I'm looking at my planets right now and I have no way of getting the materials off the planet (CC is on the otherside of the planet.)
CCP has not listened to a damn thing that has been said, and is just blindly charging on with this mess, which incidently is perfectly on par as far as PI is concerned, and has been since day one.
So much for the new CCP.
One bil capital expenditure now to continue my colonies?? **** off.
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Zleon Leigh
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 21:36:00 -
[1740] - Quote
Someone mentioned stockpiling PI in another thread. Certainly might have been an attempt to manipulate the market, but honestly, I'd suggest all independent PI producers start stockpiling. Obvious now that this is going to be a huge you know what...
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
|
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 23:47:00 -
[1741] - Quote
Just to build on the numbers a bit.
Assumptions: 2% tax on PI product value (upped from 1.7 as given in earlier post) 150 mil a month in product creation (2 charactors, 4/5 skills on both) 10 planets 20 corp members doing PI.
Costs 100 mil for each POCO to install. x 10 planets
The math.
2% of 150 mil is 3 mil. 3 mil x 20 players is 60 mil a month in taxes generated. Cost was 1 Bil to install the entire network, that gives you a ROI of 16.67 months. So for you to start generating a profit is 17 months. Does not sound like a good idea to me for any small corperation. Even larger ones may suffer.
So if this is all about putting the power back in the hands of the players and giving something for corperations to make money from your wrong. Your own numbers do not justify it except for large (huge) alliances that have a fairly defendable area and can run operations 24 hours a day to defend thier intial investment. I know there is a 24 hour timer, however putting these into reinforcement is going to be just the start. At some point someone else will come along to destroy the ones coming out of reinforcement and the owning corperation will just not have enough people on to do anything about it. its just too juicy a target and too costly for owning corps not to.
So if this was to give small corps/alliances a chance at a pot of gold you have missed your mark. There is no gold at the end of this rainbow, just misery and missed opportunity.
It does however give the new NAGA and Talos something to shoot at and provides a unique niche for these ships. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 00:00:00 -
[1742] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:words You forget that far too many people, possibly myself included, will decide that if our most enjoyed playstyle (wormholes in this case, high dependence on PI fuels) winds up becoming overly dependent on things we have no control over we'll simply consider other games instead. The one thing I can do in this game right now with little to no interference from others is create the PI pos fuels I need to keep my pos running. It's not too much to ask to allow for at least one little area of independence from the cacophony of the rest of the game. Sometimes I want a little "me" time. That is a fair take on things and, as you state, a common state of affairs regarding POS fuel generation in either worm holes or for more peaceful activities sandwiched by the cacophony of corp / alliance activities.
If you live in a corp or alliance held hole, do you believe that this change will be debilitating once the gantries and POCOs are set up and configured? I am making the assumption that the hole-holding entity sets up the POCOs and grants access to all interested parties.
Regarding other games, I completely understand. I am waiting to see how this PI + POCO + DUST stuff plays out over the next few months, as well. Lots of other engrossing entertainment options out there and CCP's grasp on my computer time has vastly decreased of late.
I wonder what CCP's take is on how many individual players and smaller entities will be driven away from PI activities. And how they factor that into their grand scheme for the DUST roll-out.
p.s. fxck you CCP forums. I copied my post into the clipboard and foiled yet another attempt the eat content. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:04:00 -
[1743] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:So without going through 83 pages to see if this has been asked (apologies if it has)
What happens to my PI that is sitting in NPC customs when this change happens? Disappears? Gets moved to a NPC station nearby?
Can't send it back to the planet because my storage there may be full... and I certainly don't want to be paying another fricken round of export taxes, especially the ridiculous double taxes....
CCP - Congrats on continuing to gank PI producers... did the PI dev do something to **** all the other dev's off?
It will be ported automatically to a nearby (relatively speaking) station - CCP hasn't said exactly how this will be determined, but point is you won't loose your stuff -
This was answered directly by CCP in this thread. |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:09:00 -
[1744] - Quote
It is only sort of answered. If you are in a system with no station then were does it go? |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:11:00 -
[1745] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:CCP!!!!
Please change your plans for low sec COs!!!
You will ruin PI for many and just add new static pirate hobby targets!
You will once again screw the little guy with your low sec CO plans!!!
Issler
Has anyone noticed this announcement?
Final Feature Build on Singularity for Winter 2011 expansion
So Grab your arses everyone, and secure your bars of soap, because whatever comes in Team Pi's devblog is probably what we're gonna be getting for Winter!
So in preparation to say goodbye to Low Sec PI access: Here's to the the PI Operators in Low Sec...
Quote:Should Old Acquaintance be forgot, and never thought upon; The flames of Love extinguished, and fully past and gone: Is thy sweet Heart now grown so cold, that loving Breast of thine; That thou canst never once reflect on Old long syne.
... well you can hum the rest... |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:15:00 -
[1746] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote:It is only sort of answered. If you are in a system with no station then were does it go?
It will still port to a station - that's why I mentioned 'relative'.... even if the next station is 10 jumps, thats probably where it will end up... thought is is plausible that CCP might be nice enough to just port it all to a HI Sec NPC station....
... it will end up in a station 'somewhere'
*(Wizard of Oz song coming on.... Some where over the rainbow......... ) |
Zleon Leigh
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:26:00 -
[1747] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So without going through 83 pages to see if this has been asked (apologies if it has)
What happens to my PI that is sitting in NPC customs when this change happens? Disappears? Gets moved to a NPC station nearby?
Can't send it back to the planet because my storage there may be full... and I certainly don't want to be paying another fricken round of export taxes, especially the ridiculous double taxes....
CCP - Congrats on continuing to gank PI producers... did the PI dev do something to **** all the other dev's off?
It will be ported automatically to a nearby (relatively speaking) station - CCP hasn't said exactly how this will be determined, but point is you won't loose your stuff - This was answered directly by CCP in this thread.
Well that would be just great - except if it goes to a station that I don't have access too...
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:32:00 -
[1748] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So without going through 83 pages to see if this has been asked (apologies if it has)
What happens to my PI that is sitting in NPC customs when this change happens? Disappears? Gets moved to a NPC station nearby?
Can't send it back to the planet because my storage there may be full... and I certainly don't want to be paying another fricken round of export taxes, especially the ridiculous double taxes....
CCP - Congrats on continuing to gank PI producers... did the PI dev do something to **** all the other dev's off?
It will be ported automatically to a nearby (relatively speaking) station - CCP hasn't said exactly how this will be determined, but point is you won't loose your stuff - This was answered directly by CCP in this thread. Well that would be just great - except if it goes to a station that I don't have access too...
Will only be NPC stations mate - no Outposts
|
Zleon Leigh
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:41:00 -
[1749] - Quote
eh, it doesn't matter. Player owned customs are just going to be gank sites in anything but HiSec. ("Hey gang - just saw tax revenue come in - P3M4 - Get him!")
Screw it, I'm out of PI
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:45:00 -
[1750] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Yes I have. And I tried that new SiSi build. Customs Office Gantry's are no longer seeded on the market. Makes you wonder......
Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
|
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:57:00 -
[1751] - Quote
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Yes I have. And I tried that new SiSi build. Customs Office Gantry's are no longer seeded on the market. Makes you wonder......
.... actually it just means CCP is putting a lump of coal in our PI stockings this year...
CCP redefining the meaning of
Quote:"no good deed goes unpunished..." |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
1101
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 01:59:00 -
[1752] - Quote
So the new "responsive to the players" after 85 pages of responses, most being negative and against aspects of this change, many containing well constructed finacial models where these things can't pay for themselves has decided to ignore all feedback.
Awesome!
Can't wait to see the next way CCP can find to drive all the small corps, casual and independent players out of their game. Actually this is even worse, you can be hard core and large and the numbers just don't work.
How about this CCP, tie ammo damage and resists to the size of your alliance! Or transaction taxes! Let's get rid of those pesky players that won't just up and join a huge alliance!
This from the only game company with a full time ecconomist!
A sad example of how the "new responsive to the players" CCP appears to be anything but.
Issler
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
895
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 04:35:00 -
[1753] - Quote
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Yes I have. And I tried that new SiSi build. Customs Office Gantry's are no longer seeded on the market. Makes you wonder......
So Nullabor decided to crap all over everyone's concerns because he's too emotionally attached to a mediocre plan with a crap implementation.
Nice job CCP. Real effing nice.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:02:00 -
[1754] - Quote
Some thoughts around enabling people to get around the coming high taxes and the effects thereof.
1. Greatly reduce the time between expedited transfers. 2. increase the size of the storage in the command center. 3. Allow the owners of the Customers office to have an estimate of how much goods (as a percent) where launched in the past week versus using there CO. - Gives them a real incentive to lower tax rates. - or make them higher i suppose if its low percentage. 4. Allow the CC to be moved with out destroying the entire colony. - For those of us who have never used it and really don't want to rebuild our colony. I have a few that are a LONG ways away lol. - I wouldn't mind paying the entire cost of the colony again.. just don't want to do the rebuilding.
On the other hand...
To make the CO more competitive with launching how about allowing the transfers from storage to the CO if your able to scan planents in that system? Will give that "Remote Sensing" skill a kick in the pants. |
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:31:00 -
[1755] - Quote
Was thinking about DUST. This is a bit far off i know but...
Will dust players be able to destroy the CO? That would be cool.
AND launch there own CO?
Or maybe for more competition (potential) they have a different method of get PI off planets, one that only DUST players can fight over. A massive launch pad...
Which just like using the CC, would have the built in benefit of NOT being at a know stationary place... as an aid to avoid pirates. |
Ines Fy
Heroes of the Past Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 09:58:00 -
[1756] - Quote
Looking to these changes I did some accounting and by Jita prices each CO cost 75M+20M BPC+concord points to build. Having in mind the planets I'm located only have 5-7 CCs I can count, not even in 2 years with taxes at 100% I will get my money back. And If I put taxes at 100% all PI clients will leave soon (tm).
Also every pirate and alliance in the game will look for COs that belong to small corps, like mine (4 chars), and ask for a ransom to not to kill them and when we do not comply, guess? -> Industrial small corps have no chance to defend them.
CO's are too expensive to build, so for me to risk placing 7 or 8 and try to explore them, having in mind a 2 year plus turnaround and the 99% risk of losing them in the first month... yes right... no way
Only if we could INSURE THEM, in low sec!
That would mitigate the risk of losing them and lower the losses to a minimum. Taking the huge loss risk from the the equation and transforming it in a small loss problem will make the difference!
Having the possibility of insure custom offices will make a huge difference and save low sec PI. I would invest the money and try to explore 7 or 8 of them and see what happens ... and If one day I loose 70-80M, OK, it was a good try and I can live with that. Losing 700-800 M I cannot live with that! |
Aphrodite Skripalle
Galactic Defence Consortium
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:31:00 -
[1757] - Quote
Liu Ellens wrote:I was hoping to read about one feature: Make these custom offices be available for courier-contracts! But was highly disappointed... And second: Do I read this right, these things are pretty much defenseless (apart from their 24 hour timer)? No guns, no... nothing? Sounds like perfect 'shoot here for practise' signs (edit: might be though that I didn't catch the actual intention of this iteration) ^This. I want guns in my systems. Also this is a game for Teams, thats why we have corporations. Why i need to haul my stuff ? But if, i would like haul it for my team mates, too.
|
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:43:00 -
[1758] - Quote
New Devblog is out HERE
I think I'm the first to post on this since the new devblog came out...
With that said, I have to say that this is a win for the eve community! And while not everything we asked for, it is a reasonable compromise, and one that I am happy to accept. (Though I still think P4 commodities need a bigger Command Center launch vehicle m3)
Imo - I think it's important that we praise CCP and Team Pi for what good they have done in this change to PCO feature, so that they know their efforts at listening to the community are worth while - and while some of us will argue to the bitter end that 'nothing' should be changed to herald in PCO's; that is neither realistic, nor rational.
/golf_clap to Team Pi for really trying to listen to us, while balancing development needs and practicalities!
o7 |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:08:00 -
[1759] - Quote
If you still don't understand the fundamental problems with the feature, I can only laugh/cry. I'm too exhausted to argue. I'm too exhausted to comment (almost). Your economy will implode (literally not figuratively). Inflation will be the bane of eve player's existence (as if it's not a problem already). Your user base will scream louder than at the release of the NeX store. When your subscriptions drop even further than they have for this ill thought out 'feature', you will (hopefully) think back to when I told you so. I will take no pleasure in it (just like I never do). And you will end up reimbursing anyone who bought anything related to this terrible feature as you revert the POCOs back to pre-winter expansion.
I'm done talking 'with' you about it. Implement this in it's current form EVEN AFTER YOUR 'CHANGES', and mark my words: "The masses will revolt. |
Xerxes Ceasar
Lone Gunmen
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:17:00 -
[1760] - Quote
All I can say about this changes is WHY? it will only make POS fuel even more expensive, as it wasnt expensive enough as it is now. |
|
Vorpaladin
Diplomacy Has Failed Fade 2 Black
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:59:00 -
[1761] - Quote
After reading the new dev blog, I'm glad to see that the customs offices won't simply disappear after the expansion. I'm still not happy with the whole concept for reasons covered on the previous 89 pages of this thread (lol!). The biggest systemic problem for the whole EVE community is going to be significant inflation for POS fuel, which means fewer POSes, which means less manufacturing in general, which means inflation raging through the whole economy. This equates to a nerf of all ISK-generating activities (sites, missions, etc.) since payouts will remain constant while the price of everything increases. That means players will over time have fewer ships and fewer assets in general, so players have fewer options in what they can do, which simply makes EVE less fun to play. It looks like CCP is going to cram this down our throats anyway, create a firestorm of protests and see a shrinking subscriber base. Again. And this boondoggle doesn't even generate income for CCP like the NEX boondoggle presumably will. Seems crazy to me. |
Meldan Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:55:00 -
[1762] - Quote
I followed this thread from day one and posted my thoughts and ideas along with many other players. I think CCP got lots of good thoughtful ideas and feedback.
Given all this feedback, essentially all CCP was able to do was change the way that CO's are removed from the game and added the ability to change tax rate by standing?
Are you kidding me? Seriously? Did you read the feedback from the people who play and care about this game?
Granted, both of the major changes were very much needed, but it's a far cry from what really is needed to make the original goals a positive thing within Eve. As it is, I think it's a not a positive change by any stretch of the imagination.
CCP - you wasted your time implementing this, and you wasted the time of all those who gave you honest thoughtful constructive feedback. I will never give you feedback again, as it is clearly a waste of time.
I probably will see how this thing settles out, not because I have any real hope that it will work well, but because it's only a couple weeks away. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:25:00 -
[1763] - Quote
Meldan Anstian wrote:I followed this thread from day one and posted my thoughts and ideas along with many other players. I think CCP got lots of good thoughtful ideas and feedback.
Given all this feedback, essentially all CCP was able to do was change the way that CO's are removed from the game and added the ability to change tax rate by standing?
Are you kidding me? Seriously? Did you read the feedback from the people who play and care about this game?
Granted, both of the major changes were very much needed, but it's a far cry from what really is needed to make the original goals a positive thing within Eve. As it is, I think it's a not a positive change by any stretch of the imagination.
CCP - you wasted your time implementing this, and you wasted the time of all those who gave you honest thoughtful constructive feedback. I will never give you feedback again, as it is clearly a waste of time.
I probably will see how this thing settles out, not because I have any real hope that it will work well, but because it's only a couple weeks away.
If I might comment - where you might see a piece of coal in your PI stocking, I have to say I see a shiny piece of coal in mine... I got my wish for CO's not to be wiped, and gantry size to be reduced to fit in a crane!
Don't worry, just think in a million years that piece of coal might one day become a diamond?!
You just have to understand where CCP is coming from and then its easy to find the silver linings in this feature! |
Nose ElGrande
Swarm Of Locusts
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 02:41:00 -
[1764] - Quote
Having reviewed the newly updated devblog:
1) Thank you for providing a response before the North Star arrived on the third day....
2) Thank you for allowing the players to determine where controlling PI tax is worth the POCO investment. If anything, this will incent folks to place POCOs and do their P2-P4 assemblies with no tax. This will also allow for deception if desired, so it is not so obvious where players *are* doing PI vs not. If ganking becomes an issue (by watching POCOs rather than Interbus stations), players can choose to replace Interbus stations at planets they do not use, so the 'odds' will be better for the planet they are using.
3) Thank you for revising the filters for taxation, this will be helpful. Also thanks for making transfer of POCO 'easy' ... there was no mention of what Corp Role would be created for this? What is the intent?
4) Ok, now the request ...
In the next two weeks, can you please provide a detailed commentary on what CCP will or will not do with the many suggestions provided on this thread. We would like to know what features will be implemented in future releases (not done now because of timing/complexity issues) and which will not ever be implemented (and why).
That would be helpful, and show that you have listened, considered the thoughts of the users, and have more reasons than just time for the decisions made.
Otherwise, good choices for now, I'm still hopeful for a Corporation-controlled device to have corp member accessible common Corporate Hanger so we can actually do PI as a corporation at the planet. I am patient.
Good Job. |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 10:54:00 -
[1765] - Quote
Maybe the (already started) POS fuel price hikes will make highsec PI profitable... and with no hassle of POCOs. One more reason POCOs are a bad idea. Making highsec PI more profitable while increasing the complexity and difficulty of lowsec/nulsec/wh PI only means one thing. Fewer industrialists putting their shiny haulers at risk. That means less conflict, less things getting blown up, less fun for everyone.
Can we skip to the part where you undo this horrible change and save everyone the trouble? Also, if there really is some alleged way this will interact with DUST, can you tell us what this mystical secret is? Keep your DUST out of our EVE until it's released, please. |
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 13:00:00 -
[1766] - Quote
CCP PI related Devs take note: -Your CEO he has already had to carry out one humbling climb down apology for arrogantly driving blinkered in one direction with a pet idea; ( you obviously feel you are too important to have to worry about that ), which you are too proud of to change sensibly all from not listening to the disaffected player base. I am sure neither you, ourselves nor him wish for another public fiasco resulting from the effects of the PI changes you are presenting. It would be humiliating in the least. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:14:00 -
[1767] - Quote
Max O'Deel wrote:CCP PI related Devs take note: -Your CEO he has already had to carry out one humbling climb down apology for arrogantly driving blinkered in one direction with a pet idea; ( you obviously feel you are too important to have to worry about that ), which you are too proud of to change sensibly all from not listening to the disaffected player base. I am sure neither you, ourselves nor him wish for another public fiasco resulting from the effects of the PI changes you are presenting. It would be humiliating in the least. It may not be the PI development personnel who are driving this change, keep in mind.
CCP has been laying the groundwork for DUST over the past year and a half and this may simply be one more deliverable in their overall project plan no matter how they try to sell the changes to their existing customers.
CCP will do whatever they believe to be necessary to further their DUST 514 project, make no mistakes about it. And it is up to us if we want to continue to play along in the context of CCP's grand console title delivery plan. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Elvin Gizza
Gerek Ore And Moon Surveying
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 05:46:00 -
[1768] - Quote
Maybe this have answered, but what is gained from attacking the CO? - It blows up, and then you install your own CO ? - You take control of it, and have to repair it ?
CCP: With the taxing in all low spacing being set to 100%, because that makes most sense, what do you think will happen to PI prices? or availability of POS fuels ?
Why do you hate POS's? |
Zeronic
Zero Core Labs United Abominations
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 13:39:00 -
[1769] - Quote
Elvin Gizza wrote:Maybe this have answered, but what is gained from attacking the CO? - It blows up, and then you install your own CO ? - You take control of it, and have to repair it ?
CCP: With the taxing in all low spacing being set to 100%, because that makes most sense, what do you think will happen to PI prices? or availability of POS fuels ?
Why do you hate POS's?
To me with the latest DevBlog, it just shows that either Team PI is either not looking at the bigger picture or they have the old case of CCP tunnel vision. Even with the changes it still not good enough, LP for an item that need to be put on almost every planet is not a very good plan at all. Plus how did Interbus get dragged in to this, I bet the RP Player are looking at that and go how does that work.
Again this isn't a bad idea but it only good on paper. TQ is a completely different story. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 14:06:00 -
[1770] - Quote
Moribund Topic
But for those that like to give CPR to corpses... please continue |
|
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 19:29:00 -
[1771] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Max O'Deel wrote:CCP PI related Devs take note: -Your CEO he has already had to carry out one humbling climb down apology for arrogantly driving blinkered in one direction with a pet idea; ( you obviously feel you are too important to have to worry about that ), which you are too proud of to change sensibly all from not listening to the disaffected player base. I am sure neither you, ourselves nor him wish for another public fiasco resulting from the effects of the PI changes you are presenting. It would be humiliating in the least. It may not be the PI development personnel who are driving this change, keep in mind. CCP has been laying the groundwork for DUST over the past year and a half and this may simply be one more deliverable in their overall project plan no matter how they try to sell the changes to their existing customers. CCP will do whatever they believe to be necessary to further their DUST 514 project, make no mistakes about it. And it is up to us if we want to continue to play along in the context of CCP's grand console title delivery plan.
Call me cynical if you like, your comments may be right, in some aspects, however whilst it may be their company project why shaft EVE player's too make it happen. If DUST is the cause of this crap then it should have been developed separately got themselves its own player base paying for it, then ask us all how they feel about integration aspects dont just do it at our expense. or do you like paying for someone elseGÇÖs game development.
|
uglybass
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 11:58:00 -
[1772] - Quote
This hole concept is full of fail, It just shouts grief, grief, grief me. low-sec should have left outside of this, because they will just become tax farming grounds to mega-blob nullsec alliances. they can field hundred super caps to clear out system and no low-sec group can defend that.
what about low-sec systems which are not-so-PI-intensive, say Im pretty much only one doing PI there. I need to do launches or set tax office for myself....great... and ofc some random bored group of bullies will blow that one up... just because of lulz.
luckily high-sec has been left out of this... I can imagine how "Lucky Luke - The Oklahoma Land Rush" would occur if high sec gets player owned PI Tax offices
I dont have much of an idea how this will benefith null either. Alliance living there will be the one collecting taxes... So basicly its the same thing that I take ISK from right pocket and put it to left pocket. If you can ninja tax offices, null-sec alliances get more structure shooting. THE most enjoyable part of the game.
sorry, Omen I seriously think this concept needs couple more rounds of iteration...
My opinion considers the big picture, OFC there is variables here like PL, CVA and NPC-null that I didnt mention |
Clama
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 15:13:00 -
[1773] - Quote
Sisi looks amazing. I love the new transfer window.
You keep saying we can launch if we canGÇÖt use the POCO. To get the stuff in the command centre which has to be done via expedited transfer. Which has a cool down of 15mins.
[url]http://imgur.com/kBnW0[/url]
Please consider reducing this. |
Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 02:13:00 -
[1774] - Quote
I still want to know how this will affect WHs. Due to the nature of WHs, you have to dedicate time if you want to destroy them (since WHs don't last longer than 24 hours). Currently on SiSi, WHs have Customs Offices owned by EVEOnline, and you cannot access them. Requiring WH people to grab Custom's offices isn't that big of a deal monetarily speaking, it just *limits* WH life. I know the original intent of WH life was to be more nomadic (example, change subsystems in a POS, meaning less ships to do all the roles), and there could have been changes added to do this, but they are going the other route.
Low sec PI should probably be owned by whomever owns the space (faction warfare, syndicate, etc), and NPC null-sec the same. As much as I'd want more places to fight besides gates, WHs, and pos's, there is no reason to fight here. An attacking force gains nothing by blowing up a CO (except to grief). |
Elrinarie
Wrecking Shots Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 08:19:00 -
[1775] - Quote
Honestly think this is a terrible idea.
1) It will dramatically increase the costs of PI goods across the board (as if they aren't already too expensive) 2) It is poorly designed and is being rushed out from point of presentation to implementation 3) The tax system will take YEARS to recover the costs of the initial investment for the POCO. 4) while many people do PI for their corps, is a time consuming INDIVIDUAL task. Now you're making an individual task and forcing it into a corporate/alliance denial of income.
If you are doing it on an individual basis in low/null. You are looking at 1-2 months ROI for the initial setup costs per planet in this new system
If you are doing it in a corp/alliance. Your setup costs to tax ROI is going to take years.
essentially.. if all things go as expected.. POCO's will never see ROI |
Feffri
Kroll's Legion Templis Dragonaors
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 09:01:00 -
[1776] - Quote
this is so frustrating I can't believe they are actually implementing this... One thing i don't understand is what is the tax % taxing market value of the pi materials? |
Anishoara
Federal Institute Industries
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 18:32:00 -
[1777] - Quote
I try to understand something about taxes now, and after.
Today, for example :
1 UNIT of Precious Metal = 0.76 ISK in taxes to export
Tomorrow, with an Interbus Custom Office :
1 UNIT of Precious Metal = 500 ISK (base taxe) x 17% (interbus taxe) = 85 ISK ?
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 21:22:00 -
[1778] - Quote
Hi-sec CONCORD 5% import fees / 10% export fees:
P0 - 0.25 / 0.50 ISK/u P1 - 25.00 / 50.00 ISK/u P2 - 450 / 900 / ISK/u P3 - 3500 / 7000 ISK/u P4 - 67500 / 135000 ISK/u
Or see:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Your calculation sounds about right though. Just make sure to raise your prices 50-85 ISK on P1 products that you sell on the market and you'll be fine. |
Taloness
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 00:57:00 -
[1779] - Quote
Well I haven't been able to read all of these but seems to be a general distaste for these things. I have been very excited about them since I first heard about them but I agree completely with the concerns that have been brought up. After playing around a bit on Sisi I can see its going to be EXTREMELY easy for the big alliances to BURN through Lowsec and put up their own offices all over the universe making some nice income for themselves and taxing people out of areas they dont want them in. CCP you have made PI a big part of the game and you are screwing it up by touching Low Sec. I agree completely with having them in W Space and in Sov but Low Sec shouldn't have been touched. There are plenty of small corps that will never come close to Sov and there is nothing wrong with that. There are also plenty of corps and pilots that will never leave HS and thats ok too. Thats the beauty of Eve there is something for everyone so as far as the talk about forcing pilots to stay in HS or LS I think thats bull, if they are ambitious enough and what it then they have to go for it but puting these in Low Sec will definetely prevent that. I'm guessing that the big alliances will be able to re enforce one of these things in 10minutes. So do you plan to start the same process with IHUB's as needing the gantry before building the actual IHUB? Otherwise why is the customse office special. And why can't I continue to upgrade my Customs office with say defensive upgrades. They could be installed just like upgrades are installed in the IHUBS. You could make the defensive upgrades targetable items like services on outposts. This would provide some protection against the average passers by. But ofcourse that doesn't really matter since the blobs are going to burn these things down just for fun. I'm guessing within a week you see 60% of the customs offices gone without replacements even just plain gone.
I just blew one up with a single Naglfar on sisi in about 2 hours. Granted the player ones will re enforce and not just go straight to boom but it took me about 1.5 hours to go through the shields for re enforce. So this means the blobs will be able to re enforce these things in probably 2 siege cycle's maybe even 1 and if they dooms day them then they will basically be able to re enforce 1 office every 10minutes. Say an average system has 7 plantes thats about 1.5 hours per system to smash all of them including move time to warp from office to office. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 07:43:00 -
[1780] - Quote
Taloness wrote:Well I haven't been able to read all of these but seems to be a general distaste for these things. I have been very excited about them since I first heard about them but I agree completely with the concerns that have been brought up. After playing around a bit on Sisi I can see its going to be EXTREMELY easy for the big alliances to BURN through Lowsec and put up their own offices all over the universe making some nice income for themselves and taxing people out of areas they dont want them in. CCP you have made PI a big part of the game and you are screwing it up by touching Low Sec. I agree completely with having them in W Space and in Sov but Low Sec shouldn't have been touched. There are plenty of small corps that will never come close to Sov and there is nothing wrong with that. There are also plenty of corps and pilots that will never leave HS and thats ok too. Thats the beauty of Eve there is something for everyone so as far as the talk about forcing pilots to stay in HS or LS I think thats bull, if they are ambitious enough and what it then they have to go for it but puting these in Low Sec will definetely prevent that. I'm guessing that the big alliances will be able to re enforce one of these things in 10minutes. So do you plan to start the same process with IHUB's as needing the gantry before building the actual IHUB? Otherwise why is the customse office special. And why can't I continue to upgrade my Customs office with say defensive upgrades. They could be installed just like upgrades are installed in the IHUBS. You could make the defensive upgrades targetable items like services on outposts. This would provide some protection against the average passers by. But ofcourse that doesn't really matter since the blobs are going to burn these things down just for fun. I'm guessing within a week you see 60% of the customs offices gone without replacements even just plain gone.
Yeah, the naysayers can say whatever they want. If it generates a kill mail, there is always someone willing to shoot it down. |
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PRLord
Violent Force Productions The Phoenix Regime
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 01:43:00 -
[1781] - Quote
Does anyone know if the NPC controlled offices that are destructable have reinforcement timers as well? |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
72
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:06:00 -
[1782] - Quote
PRLord wrote:Does anyone know if the NPC controlled offices that are destructable have reinforcement timers as well? Probably, but noone will reapair them... |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:50:00 -
[1783] - Quote
PRLord wrote:Does anyone know if the NPC controlled offices that are destructable have reinforcement timers as well?
AFAIK, they (the NPC-owned Interbus COs) do not have reinf timers, but they do have slightly more EHP then POCOs. |
Yalawni
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:53:00 -
[1784] - Quote
I hate this idea.
People with no interest in PI production will just attack these customs offices for the hell of it. So, to have any chance now of participating in low sec PI i have to join a huge corp that can defend them. What about the little guy?
I am now to be relegated to high sec (poor planet) PI because i am not in a large corp.
You wanted PI to be a big part of the game and many of us solo / small corp players embraced it and have assumed the risk of operating in low sec with covert transports etc but now we are gonna be thrown out.
Again, biggest problem I see here is people with no interest in PI just messing with it for jollies.
I love the expansion in general but this idea sucks.
o/ |
CHrONiC CAiN
Clone Republic War Academy
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 01:55:00 -
[1785] - Quote
Thanks for totally screwing up PI CCP, well done. Nothing was wrong with the PI set-up in HS, yet you broke it and now profit is so marginal its not worth bothering with. Yes, I like fuzzy bunny space, dont care about kill mails, gank'n Joe Blow and his corp, back stabbing alliances or any of that other BS. Now it cost TEN TIMES what I usually pay in fees to import/export, not double like it says in the release. Double I can handle. When export goes from 390k to 3.9mil, someone just screwed the pooch. To quote CCP Quote:Customs Offices in High Sec will remain under the authority of CONCORD who will, in turn, charge doubled import and export taxes. That statement isn't even close to what the import/export taxes are in HS.....Whoever taught you math needs to be slapped. There you have it!
TOTAL IDIOTS!!! |
Mechnom
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 11:16:00 -
[1786] - Quote
CHrONiC CAiN wrote:
TOTAL IDIOTS!!!
well - let's calm down a bit.
what is at stake is not pi in high-sec. those changes simply lead to higher pi-product prices. so income from pi wont change i guess. what will be affected are the costs to maintain a station which will then affect t2 production, capital parts production and the like.
i guess changing the prices to export was simply needed to make setting up pocos profitable. i agree that 0.o sec alliances should be rewarded for doing what they do. it is much more risky. so it should pay out. with margins of like 45k iskies noone would have bothered to set pocos up. the way it is now will make them reconsider...
so in generall i agree with the changes to 0.o and highsec.
what should be adressed (dirly) is the way to export stuff from a planet where there is no poco. dont expect small alliances to put one up themselves. as those affore mentioned raids will...
so my adjustment ideas would be:
1. limit the tax rate in empire lowsec to 20% - 25%
AND
2. when a poco is not rebuild within 20 hours a new one is set up (i.e a interbus one)
or
2. make planetary launches possible via the spaceport
or
2. make the storage capacity bigger in the command center
AND: make launches/export possible if not in solar system. well i assume it is just a bug, but one never knows... |
Rui Siyuan
The Order of the Oar P R I M E
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:05:00 -
[1787] - Quote
I can confirm, no reinforcement timers. But oh boy do they take a while to bring down! Bring ammo and snacks. That'll deter many opportunistic Interbus bashers anyway.
The POCO was up and upgraded in seconds, easy as.
HIGH sec tax rate? What on earth? A little overboard? I dont get the logic. Surely that's not expected to be a strong enough motivator for people to shift from high sec? They'll just drop PI when the hassle becomes insufficiently profitable, do something else .
PLUS - POCOs and their corporate owners now clear for all to see across system on overview. There goes our efforts to disguise our corporate identity in w space then. Tactically, it's going to have a big impact on w space scouting. Fake holding corp to "own" your local tax-free POCOs anyone? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
493
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:15:00 -
[1788] - Quote
Rui Siyuan wrote:I can confirm, no reinforcement timers. But oh boy do they take a while to bring down! Bring ammo and snacks. That'll deter many opportunistic Interbus bashers anyway. They have 2.5m more hp to kill than POCOs (because of the reinforcement mechanics), and you have to do it all in one sitting
Quote:PLUS - POCOs and their corporate owners now clear for all to see across system on overview. There goes our efforts to disguise our corporate identity in w space then. Tactically, it's going to have a big impact on w space scouting. Fake holding corp to "own" your local tax-free POCOs anyone? With the "transfer ownership" mechanic, the holding corp doesn't even have to set foot in the wormhole. You lose attack notifications, but in a wormhole, you'll usually find out inmediately anyway. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:31:00 -
[1789] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Hi-sec CONCORD 5% import fees / 10% export fees: P0 - 0.25 / 0.50 ISK/u P1 - 25.00 / 50.00 ISK/u P2 - 450 / 900 / ISK/u P3 - 3500 / 7000 ISK/u P4 - 67500 / 135000 ISK/u Or see: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeYour calculation sounds about right though. Just make sure to raise your prices 50-85 ISK on P1 products that you sell on the market and you'll be fine.
So far I've been okay with everything until I found this:
333 units of any P2 launched from the "Command Center" (Rocket Launch) is 1350 ISK/ unit!!!!!!!!!???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WTH?!
CCP Phantom could you please respond to why such a huge increase in the launch costs has occurred?
I mean do whatever you want with Interbus but you guys need to keep your hands off my command center. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
744
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:52:00 -
[1790] - Quote
Rui Siyuan wrote: HIGH sec tax rate? What on earth? A little overboard? I dont get the logic. Surely that's not expected to be a strong enough motivator for people to shift from high sec? They'll just drop PI when the hassle becomes insufficiently profitable, do something else .
The short answer:
If hi-sec tariffs hadn't been raised then lo-sec POCOs would not be economically viable. Unable to compete against the hi-sec tariffs. If POCOs aren't economically viable, then people would be crying here about someone blowing up their lo-sec NPC CO and nobody can afford to put one back up. If the NPC CO tariffs in lo-sec weren't high, then users wouldn't bother to take them down prematurely and put new ones up in order to save on tariffs and line their own pockets.
Personally, I argued that CCP needed to give us 3 different sizes, 30M/60M/120M versions, just like POS towers, and to give them defenses just like POS towers. Maybe with only 2/3 the PG and 1/4 the CPU of a regular POS tower in exchange for a much lower fuel use. On the other hand, you can apparently anchor these in or near a POS tower for defense. If they had given us 3 different sizes, then we could have chosen the level of POCO that we wished to deploy.
I'd like to see the material costs for the POCOs lowered - if they only required about 1/2 of the current materials, they would be far more in line with their limited functionality (which is more akin to a POS lab which are 50-80M ISK, not 150-200M).
And the way around the hi-sec tariff is to do more steps on the same planet. Setting up a planet that imports P1 and exports P3 is not hard. You can also setup P2->P4 planets, which might be more profitable then P3->P4. |
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Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
72
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:29:00 -
[1791] - Quote
I think that the only thing that is still necessary for PI on Wormhole is a place for each player store and gather their things separatly from the rest of corp before hauling... So meke a personal place on corporate hangars, or some new kind of structure!! |
Zedia Zhane
The Lagrangian Mechanics Intrepid Crossing
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:39:00 -
[1792] - Quote
From the dev blog: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2899
" The Customs Office Gantry itself is a 9600 m3 compact structure that is manufactured in assembly lines in stations (for exact materials, see the Material Shopping List) and must be anchored no further than 100,000 km from the planet."
I just tried to anchor a Gantry 86,000 km from a planet, and got a message saying it can't be anchored more than 5,666 km from the planet. I suppose, technically, it is true that it "must be anchored no further than 100,000 km from the planet." But that statement is, at best, highly misleading.
Also, there's a known bug with Amarr outposts.
"The taxes you paid before can be translated into this new system, and that would equal 5% tax in a player owned customs office. So, if you set the tax to 5% you will pay the exact same as before." (boldface emphasis is mine).
So changing it by a factor of 100x apparently qualifies as "the exact same." In the way that 10 is exactly the same as 1,000.
Note that neither of these "facts" was amended, clarified, or changed in the follow-up dev blog here: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3075 |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
115
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 05:22:00 -
[1793] - Quote
CCP could you please confirm you are still monitoring this thread for post feature deployment feedback?? |
Kblackjack54
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 17:46:00 -
[1794] - Quote
Seems CCP is not monitoring this thread in any meaningful way, otherwise they would have canned this really bad idea before now.
As I understood it PI was originally introduced as a new facet of enterprise that players could if they wished engage in, and oddly in spite of it's awful original format a lot did and till this latest patch continued to do so.
Removal of the original CO's has utterly destroyed this free enterprise ideal in favour of another of these half baked leverage ideas of CCP that making them PoS will in some way force players to engage in PvP, along the same vein as the removal of multiple Jump Bridges from systems.
That idea in it's self highlighted the failure of CCP to understand it's player base or indeed the game EVE at all, odd as they claim to have created it.
So maybe I can give them a pointer as to were to go look.
The Average player in EVE does not once past the initial stages instantly blossom into some rabid PvP killing machine, most in fact move into other areas quite quickly following a fairly fixed pattern using skills they acquired in that initial phase such as Industry/Missions/Manufacture ect.
In doing this they will due to the nature of the game invoke the risk of having to engage in PvP at some level, but considering the investment of time alone they have already expended in getting were they are this is something that expends there hard earned resources and ISK in a manner that detracts from there objectives, that of expanding there play in the field they have chosen for themselves and will be AVOIDED at all costs, hence the reason that only gate camping faggots gained from the Jump bridge nerf.
The results of this are that there play experience is diminished in value and they soon begin to feel that what they are doing is not worth the effort, considering that it may have taken them a long time to get that far only to have everything that they have worked for removed at a whim by CCP has only one end result in the long term, they move on from EVE.
It is quite obvious that this change has been aimed at Losec/0.0 alone to encourage conflict or add another aspect to system attacks during sov warfare, but in truth who is going to care about customs platforms except KM whores, PI has already almost died out as an occupation in these areas anyway except possibly for Plasma planets, almost all PoS fuel items are manufactured in Empire and shipped and this change will in my opinion just seal the fate of ex-empire PI totally.
Possibly CCP you might like to get a grasp of what actually makes players play EVE at all and factor that into your ideas process before expending time and effort on such ill thought out changes to the game and for now until you have matured in your thought process put this idea on the back burner.
There is a way to make PI mean something across EVE, but it it not this. |
Captain Byte
RingWorld Engineering
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 02:41:00 -
[1795] - Quote
Anishoara wrote:I try to understand something about taxes now, and after.
Today, for example :
1 UNIT of Precious Metal = 0.76 ISK in taxes to export
Tomorrow, with an Interbus Custom Office :
1 UNIT of Precious Metal = 500 ISK (base taxe) x 17% (interbus taxe) = 85 ISK ?
Import taxes are reasonable, but 17% export tax ?!??! That's ridiculous. And VERY little difference between CO and command center launches. There needs to be a way around these taxes. Do you need a CO to import, or can you do it without one? Also, if there is no CO, can you launch to space from the spaceport? Makes sense you could. If so, just destroy the NPC CO at planets that don't need imports, and not replace them.
This change is driving me out of the PI business, as I need to invest ~1B isk, after I kill all the NPC CO's, to be able to profitably do this. Even with the recent price inflation of 80%. That's like a year to pay back, and since I'm not using battleships in the wormhole, almost a whole day to kill the NPC CO. Good luck with that! |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
72
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 06:57:00 -
[1796] - Quote
WE NEED A WAY TO CHANGE THE TARGET WALLET FOR PI TAX INCOME !!!! |
Dragokenshin1
Pariah Nation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 17:44:00 -
[1797] - Quote
If is a invitation to leve all Pi Mining why just not ask or finish it at once?? |
DeathBeforeDishonour
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 15:21:00 -
[1798] - Quote
In case anyone is still looking at this thread.
I've been trying to configure the access to one of my POCOs. When I click the (-10) icon, nothing happens. When I click the (-5) icon, the (-10) selection changes to "Access Denied". OK, np. Click on the (=) icon and the (-5) selection changes to "Access Denied". NP again.
Click the (+5) icon and the neut selection also goes to "Access Denied".
All is good. Select "submit" and move on.
BUT !
When I click on "Configure" again, I see the (-10, -5, Neut) settings are now at 0% tax, not at "Access Denied".
Went through it all again (5 times so far) and same result. It keeps changing from "Access Denied" to 0% for those selections. (OK, 6 times now after selecting "Clear History", deleting the 0.0 from the box and doing the "click on icon below to set selection for icon above" routine, again.)
Am I doing it wrong or should I submit a petition about this ? |
LordAssasin
Tz Industries BadFellas.
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 09:07:00 -
[1799] - Quote
Traska Gannel wrote:Questions: (I didn't read the whole thread to see if these were asked already):
1) Will we be able to use spaceports to launch resources into orbit either a) when a customs office is not present b) when we do not have the standings to use the customs office
... operation of on-planet enterprises should not be dictated by the presence or absence of orbital facilities though the transfer of resources can be expedited by a customs office.
2) Roaming fleets wll pop customs offices for giggles and kill mails on a regular basis if there are no other targets available. Folks will do it just for the fun of griefing others.
a) Should customs offices have defences of some sort? Fighters for example? b) Should attacking customs offices be a no-risk activity?
3) For this to be a viable in-game business model ... i.e. why would anyone do this ... it needs to be able to make a profit. So ... based on stated resource requirements for ONE customs office:
BPC = 6000LP + 20 mil ISK ~= 26,000,000 ISK (at 1000ISK/LP) Parts: Manufacturing the Customs Office Gantry: Skill requirement: Industry V Integrity Response Drones: 5 Nano-Factory: 10 Organic Mortar Applicators: 10 Sterile Conduits: 14 Capital Construction Parts: 1 Upgrade to Customs Office: Broadcast Node: 8 Recursive Computing Module: 8 Self-Harmonizing Power Core: 8 Wetware Mainframe: 8 Parts Cost ~= $75,000,000 ISK at current market value
Total cost for one customs office = 100,000,000 ISK.
Personally my current export taxes average about 60,000 ISK/planet/dayt
Assuming that there are 5 people on each planet (which is not typically the case in my experience) - this would be a return of 300k ISK/day assuming that the rates are held about the same as current.
100,000,000/300,000 = 333 days which is close to a year before you show any profit under what I would consider a fairly optimistic estimate of cash flow.
Conclusion: I don't think anyone in their right mind would build one of these given the current costs since the odds of it lasting a year in order to start making a miniscule profit (300k isk/day) compared to other sources of income in the game (even if totally passive) is NOT cost effective.
CCP ... it is a great idea ... but please go back and look at your numbers or you will be putting in another feature that will simply fail.
Tu esti prost la cap, How much did you say, it was 60 k average...have you tried exporting 1 unit of ROBOTICS?? well bro...for like 700 pieces i payed like 8 mils or so ....i was what...but anyway this was until i read what is going on. But i think if you get 1 month of POCO without it being blown up i think you will get back the money invested...cos remember is not only you that is using the POCO, is all the other horde of Alts, so divide the cost for the poco on the nr of players that use the planets, and to think you consider letting anyone use your pocos...hmm...i mean that is your home system boy, how can you do stuff in your home system if there are reds in there doing stuff...first of all i was not allowed to put CC in space that i had no sover....let alone put pocos...If i was allowed to do this ...id make 3 alt each month just to shorten the other guy PI:) and do it in 14 day rations then after 1 day put it up again...so i really screw his planet..... But anyway, of topic, Poco will bring new life to EVE, pvp for defending, competion on the market, tax money in corpwallet not CCP concorde, DUst123:), a lot more.
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Zleon Leigh
91
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 17:45:00 -
[1800] - Quote
Yep, POCO's are a huge success. About as welcome as cancer. Biggest screwup of Crucible. Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
79
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 15:44:00 -
[1801] - Quote
A sample of Processed Materials pricing from today in Amarr indicated that there are only three(3) items where buy-orders are at 500 ISK / Unit or greater. The other twelve(12) items have buy-orders for well under the current tax basis value of 500 ISK / Unit with an average around 275 ISK / Unit.
Observations were based upon highest buy-order values as there is no guarantee that a sell-order will be acted upon.
So much for sandbox gaming as CCP continues to take an explicitly active role in market manipulation through taxation. "Tax'em until they do as we design." Yes, this mindset has always worked well.
At what point will a more truthful snapshot of commodity values be captured for more truthful taxation? And how often will these values be adjusted to reflect more realistic market pricing?
p.s. phhuck you forum gremlins. The power of copy and paste has thwarted your attempts to eat my post. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
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