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baltec1 Bat Country 6884	Posted - 2013.06.10 09:28:00 - [121] - Quote Sushi Nardieu wrote: Nobody wants Tech IIIs to be crap CCP. Nor do they want to consider buying a 500 mil hull when the Tech II variant is about the same. They dont cost 500 mil even when fitted. Also Look at how much more you pay for a vindi over a normal megathron. Thats what T3s should be like over t1s.
Tom Gerard Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan 1084	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:03:00 - [122] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Sushi Nardieu wrote: Nobody wants Tech IIIs to be crap CCP. Nor do they want to consider buying a 500 mil hull when the Tech II variant is about the same. They dont cost 500 mil even when fitted. Also Look at how much more you pay for a vindi over a normal megathron. Thats what T3s should be like over t1s. T3s should be the ultimate in subcapital DPS and Tank. Period. they use advanced sleeper AI interlocking mechanisms with melted capacitors and LORE. One of the oldest mission players in EVE designed a chart that explains stat priority in regards to mission running, compared Alpha, DPS, Ship Speed and Sig Radius and scores them. http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m24dbrfuWn1r86ax8o1_1280.jpg
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 14717	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:13:00 - [123] - Quote Tom Gerard wrote: T3s should be the ultimate in subcapital DPS and Tank. Period. Your standard trolling aside (and seeing as how there are plenty of genuine fools who actually belive this nonsense)GÇª No, they shouldn't for the simple reason that nothing should. The fact that they're close to it is perhaps the best argument for their eventual and inevitable nerfing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Sanadras Riahn This Nightmare 43	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:13:00 - [124] - Quote Tom Gerard wrote: T3s should be the ultimate in subcapital DPS and Tank. Period. they use advanced sleeper AI interlocking mechanisms with melted capacitors and LORE. I'm a fan of lore and backstory as much as the next guy, and doubly so for EVE Online. But even I know that gameplay will always trump lore. "This is our way of wisdom, warrior. To be true. To be full. To include our hearts in every aspect of what we do. --- Let those that fly cold numbers be the Amarr. We fly better than that."---Alica Wildfire, inscribed on the inside and outer shell of Sanadras' Capsule.
Grarr Dexx Snuff Box Urine Alliance 181	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:41:00 - [125] - Quote Tom Gerard wrote: baltec1 wrote: Sushi Nardieu wrote: Nobody wants Tech IIIs to be crap CCP. Nor do they want to consider buying a 500 mil hull when the Tech II variant is about the same. They dont cost 500 mil even when fitted. Also Look at how much more you pay for a vindi over a normal megathron. Thats what T3s should be like over t1s. T3s should be the ultimate in subcapital DPS and Tank. Period. they use advanced sleeper AI interlocking mechanisms with melted capacitors and LORE. pfahahah oh god get a load of this guy
Donedy Snuff Box Urine Alliance 174	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:44:00 - [126] - Quote Tippia wrote: Tom Gerard wrote: T3s should be the ultimate in subcapital DPS and Tank. Period. Your standard trolling aside (and seeing as how there are plenty of genuine fools who actually belive this nonsense)GÇª No, they shouldn't for the simple reason that nothing should. The fact that they're close to it is perhaps the best argument for their eventual and inevitable nerfing. Yeah, lets have T3 with the same tank/dps than T1. Actually, please CCP remove all combat ships from the game except noob ships, its the only way EVE can be balanced. How any subcap hull shouldnt have the best tank/dps of subcaps? THAT, is non sense.
Lexmana 991	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:54:00 - [127] - Quote Donedy wrote: Tippia wrote: Tom Gerard wrote: T3s should be the ultimate in subcapital DPS and Tank. Period. Your standard trolling aside (and seeing as how there are plenty of genuine fools who actually belive this nonsense)GÇª No, they shouldn't for the simple reason that nothing should. The fact that they're close to it is perhaps the best argument for their eventual and inevitable nerfing. "Yeah, lets have T3 with the same tank/dps than T1. Actually, please CCP remove all combat ships from the game except noob ships, its the only way EVE can be balanced." How any subcap hull shouldnt have the best tank/dps of subcaps? THAT, is non sense. I am glad you are not a game designer. Your world is a little too black and white for that. And I can asure you that even after they rebalance T3s there will still be a subcap that has the best tank/dps.
Donedy Snuff Box Urine Alliance 174	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:56:00 - [128] - Quote Oh really? I know my english is bad, but make an effort mate, reread my last post i think you can understand. Random guy 1 : "This is blue!" Random guy 2 : "NO, and im glad you're not a color professional, this is blue!"
Riot Girl Thundercats The Initiative. 991	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:00:00 - [129] - Quote Donedy wrote: How any subcap hull shouldnt have the best tank/dps of subcaps? THAT, is non sense. Because there should be many hulls with competitive stats and capabilities. This creates a richer PvP experience with far more variety in tactics and strategies. It also opens up a lot more options for a lot more pilots and makes PvP more accessible to players no matter which races they have invested in. Oh god.
Grimpak Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce 905	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:05:00 - [130] - Quote Donedy wrote: Oh really? I know my english is bad, but make an effort mate, reread my last post i think you can understand. Random guy 1 : "This is blue!" Random guy 2 : "NO, and im glad you're not a color professional, this is blue!" good man, if we all went with your ideas, there should be only 1 ship with 1 gun in the entire game. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Grarr Dexx Snuff Box Urine Alliance 181	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:05:00 - [131] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: Donedy wrote: How any subcap hull shouldnt have the best tank/dps of subcaps? THAT, is non sense. Because there should be many hulls with competitive stats and capabilities. This creates a richer PvP experience with far more variety in tactics and strategies. It also opens up a lot more options for a lot more pilots and makes PvP more accessible to players no matter which races they have invested in. That's his point exactly, he's just a french gimp so he can't really express it.
Grarr Dexx Snuff Box Urine Alliance 181	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:06:00 - [132] - Quote Grimpak wrote: Donedy wrote: Oh really? I know my english is bad, but make an effort mate, reread my last post i think you can understand. Random guy 1 : "This is blue!" Random guy 2 : "NO, and im glad you're not a color professional, this is blue!" good man, if we all went with your ideas, there should be only 1 ship with 1 gun in the entire game. http://i.imgur.com/aEhOy.jpg?1 Sweet lets do fallacy bingo!
Donedy Snuff Box Urine Alliance 174	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:09:00 - [133] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: Donedy wrote: How any subcap hull shouldnt have the best tank/dps of subcaps? THAT, is non sense. Because there should be many hulls with competitive stats and capabilities. This creates a richer PvP experience with far more variety in tactics and strategies. It also opens up a lot more options for a lot more pilots and makes PvP more accessible to players no matter which races they have invested in. Yeah guys, please same stats for all ship classes. Thats what i read here. I dont think a big T3 nerf will bring diversity but everyone flying in T1 scrub ships. As its nearly already the case since retribution (in low sec at least).
Grimpak Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce 905	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:11:00 - [134] - Quote Grarr Dexx wrote: Grimpak wrote: Donedy wrote: Oh really? I know my english is bad, but make an effort mate, reread my last post i think you can understand. Random guy 1 : "This is blue!" Random guy 2 : "NO, and im glad you're not a color professional, this is blue!" good man, if we all went with your ideas, there should be only 1 ship with 1 gun in the entire game. http://i.imgur.com/aEhOy.jpg?1 Sweet lets do fallacy bingo! how is it a logical falacy? if a ship is better than all the others than it's normal for the entire population strive for that ship instead diversifying it. so, instead of going all the work on rebalancing all the other ships, just remove them. makes everything much simpler. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Donedy Snuff Box Urine Alliance 174	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:11:00 - [135] - Quote Grimpak wrote: Donedy wrote: Oh really? I know my english is bad, but make an effort mate, reread my last post i think you can understand. Random guy 1 : "This is blue!" Random guy 2 : "NO, and im glad you're not a color professional, this is blue!" good man, if we all went with your ideas, there should be only 1 ship with 1 gun in the entire game. For god sake, im gonna make it easier for you, i am saying the contrary.
Grimpak Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce 905	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:12:00 - [136] - Quote Donedy wrote: Riot Girl wrote: Donedy wrote: How any subcap hull shouldnt have the best tank/dps of subcaps? THAT, is non sense. Because there should be many hulls with competitive stats and capabilities. This creates a richer PvP experience with far more variety in tactics and strategies. It also opens up a lot more options for a lot more pilots and makes PvP more accessible to players no matter which races they have invested in. Yeah guys, please same stats for all ship classes. Thats what i read here. I dont think a big T3 nerf will bring diversity but everyone flying in T1 scrub ships. As its nearly already the case since retribution (in low sec at least). surely you haven't read the devblogs where they said that they haven't used Tiericide on T2's and T3's. do us a favour, instead using the Magical Crystal Ball and extrapolating from it, wait till they finish it up. Donedy wrote: Grimpak wrote: good man, if we all went with your ideas, there should be only 1 ship with 1 gun in the entire game. For god sake, im gonna make it easier for you, i am saying the contrary. so making the ship the most powerful subcap isn't dumbing it down? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Grarr Dexx Snuff Box Urine Alliance 181	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:16:00 - [137] - Quote Grimpak wrote: Grarr Dexx wrote: Grimpak wrote: Donedy wrote: Oh really? I know my english is bad, but make an effort mate, reread my last post i think you can understand. Random guy 1 : "This is blue!" Random guy 2 : "NO, and im glad you're not a color professional, this is blue!" good man, if we all went with your ideas, there should be only 1 ship with 1 gun in the entire game. http://i.imgur.com/aEhOy.jpg?1 Sweet lets do fallacy bingo! how is it a logical falacy? if a ship is better than all the others than it's normal for the entire population strive for that ship instead diversifying it. so, instead of going all the work on rebalancing all the other ships, just remove them. makes everything much simpler. Stop posting, you're no good at it. And you know it's **** when I have to tell you that.
baltec1 Bat Country 6884	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:18:00 - [138] - Quote Donedy wrote: Grimpak wrote: Donedy wrote: Oh really? I know my english is bad, but make an effort mate, reread my last post i think you can understand. Random guy 1 : "This is blue!" Random guy 2 : "NO, and im glad you're not a color professional, this is blue!" good man, if we all went with your ideas, there should be only 1 ship with 1 gun in the entire game. For god sake, im gonna make it easier for you, i am saying the contrary. So in that case you agree to the t3 nerfs.
Grimpak Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce 905	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:18:00 - [139] - Quote Grarr Dexx wrote: Stop posting, you're no good at it. And you know it's **** when I have to tell you that. oh please, now you hit me with a strawman? come on you can do better. post facts! bash me with reason and coherence and prove me wrong! [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Donedy Snuff Box Urine Alliance 174	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:20:00 - [140] - Quote Grimpak wrote: surely you haven't read the devblogs where they said that they haven't used Tiericide on T2's and T3's. do us a favour, instead using the Magical Crystal Ball and extrapolating from it, wait till they finish it up. Stop posting, you're so wrong. And im lazy to take care of you. Grimpak wrote: so making the ship the most powerful subcap isn't dumbing it down? You know that best tank/dps doesnt mean most powerfull and that anyway i never said that T3 should be the most dpsy/tanky ships, right?

Eli Green The Arrow Project 690	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:21:00 - [141] - Quote I guess no one cares that a t3 nerf will destroy WH industry? wumbo
baltec1 Bat Country 6884	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:22:00 - [142] - Quote Eli Green wrote: I guess no one cares that a t3 nerf will destroy WH industry? No it wont, you will just use other ships.
Grace Ishukone Ishukone Advanced Research 17	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:23:00 - [143] - Quote Simple lesson from the Gnosis. If you make something super-versatile, you risk making it the master of absolutely nothing, so much so that it is never used in pvp. Buy all means nerf t3's, and make the useless modules valuable. But unless you intend to refund 100% all t3 skills to pilots, and permit NPC buyback of ships and subsystems at pre-patch prices, do NOT make them like the gnosis - so versatile that they fail equally at doing anything particularly well. Sure, there are currently a tiny number of super powerful builds. Yes they cost far more than T2, and take buckets of skills to fly that have a unique skill loss system as well. But fair's fair - having introduced them as the pvp elite ship. if they get nerfed back to being nothing more than an expensive ratting ship there better be a "refund my skill points and buy my useless t3' option added. Re balance as needed. But don't go too far - these massively expensive ships must remain viable in their roles in pvp. Do I care if a t3 is better in pvp at say perhaps ECM than my t1 scorpion? No way, the t3 is worth x4 the cost of my bird. Same but cf a t2 ecm cruiser? Again, no problem - they paid double what I chose to risk. If I could never jam them, and they always jam my t2 (etc), then there would be a problem. Re balancing is needed, No-one should have an instant win button. But if you nerd t3 too much, you will betray the pilots who spent a huge amount of time investing skills and isk into those ships. Either give them the option to reallocate to t2 skills, and buy their ships, or keep the changes proportionate to the skills and isk costs invested. These should be scary opponents in pvp, as they are now - which make for delicious kills. And just so we're clear, I am old school, and always thought t3 were too good to be true. I can't fly any of them, because I expected CCP to nerf them to hell and back. Give me a reason to train them CCP.
Borlag Crendraven Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 367	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:25:00 - [144] - Quote Tippia wrote: Voyager Arran wrote: I know this is a bit far back, but you are doing something hilariously dumb if your T2 ships cost more than a T3. Not really, no. I'm simply doing a correct price comparison. Do a price check on buying a HAC, one of each Recon, a Logi, a HIC, and a Field Command Ship. When I did, it came out as roughly a billion ISK. At half a billion, a T3 with the corresponding subs is only a fraction of that cost, not to mention far easier to carry around and hellalot easier (and less costly) to train for. Quote: I'm seriously wondering what you put on your HACs at this point. The same thing I put on a T3, which is why the fittings are not a factor in the price. Price as well as other included risk quite simply must play a factor in this. By flying a T3 instead of that recon or hac, you risk the loss of each of those ships in a single loss, instead of just the specific boat you're using at any given time. Additionally no t3 that is fitted for recon duty, will be able to outperform a recon in the said role, as in the proteus will still have weaker ewar than the arazu, ditto with loki vs rapier, legion vs curse and the tengu vs the falcon. What they do is a role of their own in the said configuration; their ewar capability is weaker and their ability to cloak up is also taken from them, while the benefit you have with them is stronger tank and damage. With the upcoming command ship changes, the strongest boosters will be the command ships, thus again the t3's would be weaker counterparts in that specific role. HAC's have yet to seen any kind of rebalances, and looking at them now I find it hard to even consider the diemost above the t1 hull Thorax. Why bother with the diemost when it just barely outperforms a thorax? Why bother with the zealot when for the same price you could get a simple harbinger that tanks better while having higher dps to top it off? Different hull class sure, but what difference does that make in the end. The important part is how well the boat does its role, not what the boat itself is. If you can fulfill the same role with a cheaper t1 boat, there's quite simply no reason to use the t2 hull. The argument about logistics is quite simply laughable as t3 logistics are laughably bad in that role, with the sole exception of the curiosity that is the cloaky t3 logi that some people use in black ops hot drops. Downside there? The range of the remote repairs is ridiculously low. That itself balances it more than fine. I also find it quite hilarious that you ignore it entirely that in order to properly change say a legion from the dps role to its recon role of neuting, you'd have to not only swap all the subsystems and the vast majority of modules, but you'd also have to completely rerig it. Take a wild guess how many people are actually doing that instead of buying a t3 for each role. There's a reason why at best I've owned 11 tech 3 ships of various factions at the same time. Because they can not do all those jobs simultaneously, and I'm fine with that.
Eli Green The Arrow Project 690	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:25:00 - [145] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Eli Green wrote: I guess no one cares that a t3 nerf will destroy WH industry? No it wont, you will just use other ships. You missunderstand, WH's produce t3s as a chief export. If the demand drops, profit drops and thevalue of sleeper salvage will too. wumbo
baltec1 Bat Country 6884	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:31:00 - [146] - Quote Grace Ishukone wrote: But unless you intend to refund 100% all t3 skills to pilots, and permit NPC buyback of ships and subsystems at pre-patch prices. Not a chance. The nerf bat has swung many times and nobody has ever had a refund. This is the risk you take when you aim for the FOTM.
Donedy Snuff Box Urine Alliance 174	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:32:00 - [147] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Donedy wrote: Grimpak wrote: Donedy wrote: Oh really? I know my english is bad, but make an effort mate, reread my last post i think you can understand. Random guy 1 : "This is blue!" Random guy 2 : "NO, and im glad you're not a color professional, this is blue!" good man, if we all went with your ideas, there should be only 1 ship with 1 gun in the entire game. For god sake, im gonna make it easier for you, i am saying the contrary. So in that case you agree to the t3 nerfs. They need a little rebalance, not strong nerf.
Riot Girl Thundercats The Initiative. 991	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:32:00 - [148] - Quote Donedy wrote: Yeah because having ships with the same stats would be better (if there is not "better" ships). :p Giving ships competitive stats and capabilities is not the same as giving ships equal stats. Perhaps you have forgotten that in EvE there are many different weapon systems, tanking styles, EWAR and role bonuses. These can create strengths and weaknesses which can be exploited and countered. That's part of what makes the game interesting. Oh god.
baltec1 Bat Country 6884	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:33:00 - [149] - Quote Eli Green wrote: baltec1 wrote: Eli Green wrote: I guess no one cares that a t3 nerf will destroy WH industry? No it wont, you will just use other ships. You missunderstand, WH's produce t3s as a chief export. If the demand drops, profit drops and thevalue of sleeper salvage will too. I wouldnt worry, t3s will still be viable ships, just not the horribly unbalanced monsters they are now. Plus more balanced t3s can now be added for frigates ect.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 14717	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:34:00 - [150] - Quote Donedy wrote: "Yeah, lets have T3 with the same tank/dps than T1.GÇ¥ The only one making any such suggestion is you. Quote: How any subcap hull shouldnt have the best tank/dps of subcaps? THAT, is non sense. No, it is balance. Will some hull have the best DPS? Sure. Will some hull have the best tank? Of course. Should they be the same hull? Under no circumstances, and T3 are the least deserving candidate of either of those distinctions, much less any combination of hem. Quote: I dont think a big T3 nerf will bring diversity but everyone flying in T1 scrub ships. GÇªand that's why people are calling out yourGÇª ehmGÇª less than stellar balancing suggestions. If T1 are GÇ£scrub shipsGÇ¥, then the balancing has failed. If there is a GÇ£best shipGÇ¥, then the balancing has failed. T1 should be a viable option for everyone. Quote: Stop posting, you're so wrong. And im lazy to take care of you. Translation: GÇ£damn, you're right, and I can't think of any argument to prove otherwise, so I'll just dismiss you out of hand and hope someone falls for it.GÇ¥ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.



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