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Jag, Vengeance, Hawk + AS 4th bonus!

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2005.12.01 11:01:00 - [31] Originally by: Arimai It has a lack of slots to do either well (armor/shieldtank), and it just has the wrong resistances compared to other races af's (aka 2 armor holes, overall kinda low shield resists) Actually, fit a kinetic shield amp (a good one) and it's shield resistances are 70/60/60/60. That's ratehr nice for a shield tanker and the Jagaur functions better as a shield tanker than an armour tanker. Besides which if you're making use of it's speed correctly you won't be taking that much damage in the first place.
Blackest Sheep	Posted - 2005.12.01 11:02:00 - [32] Originally by: Eyeshadow I suggest the enyo gets a -7.5% to rep duration bonus a la brutix) and the ishkur gets a MWD bonus (a la thorax) as we all know the ishkur is better as a close range nos/blaster boat Seconded! Actually, fourth bonuses for the small assaults would be nice. They can use the boost and it would not hurt anybody to put them in. It is not as if they would break the game, but they might get more useful.
Kurenin	Posted - 2005.12.01 11:09:00 - [33] Edited by: Kurenin on 01/12/2005 11:13:52 Weirda like yoda talks. Like Sulik from Fallout 2 also does Weirda talk. Grampybone like Weirda. We and I be liking this thread too. ----- Interestingly, other people know me better than I know myself.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.01 14:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Ysolde Xen I don't know why CCP decided that the damage deales should all have 1 slot more but if they are going to change that for 1 or two then they should change it for all. I'll agree that there seems to be 2 kinds of AF, sorted by design idea - a damage AF, and a tanking/general purpose AF. The second kind has only 10 slots. This makes no sense, especially when you look at ships like the jaguar and vengeance, which have the same number of slots as their base models (speaking of the rifter Mk2 here). This is the only case in T2 ships where this can be seen. I think the reason for this is that CCP have done something dumb with regards to assault frigates, in that they didn't really pay enough attention to these ships. Look at interceptors - they had to change the bonuses because they didn't get it really right out of the box the first time. Logistics - originally had no extra slots as well, were considerably improved later when CCP realized that they needed a boost. That's all I, and other people like Weirda (EB Portal forum troll FTW) are asking, is that CCP do what they did to interceptors and give these ships another look. I think that all of these ships should have the same number of slots, 11, and Weirda has pointed out repeatedly that the bonuses don't make sense when compared with all other T2 ships. I've laid out what I believe would work on the ships that are the worst cases already in a previous post. Though I don't think CCP will listen to me, because I've said it all before several times, if enough people were to complain maybe they'd get around to doing something about it. In short, IMO don't accept AF being on the short end of the T2 stick - if it doesn't work as well as it should, ask to have it fixed by the designer.
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia My only AF concern (excluding how the Hawk blows so badly) is that the Ishkur is going to end up being absurdly buff with the drone changes. Having 4 light drones or 2 med drones in place of a 4th gun is pretty damn nice, since even if someone does manage to kill off your drones, they've most likely taken a heavy beating in doing so, leaving you fresh for tanking their crippled ship. Small correction, with AF skill maxed, the ishkur can now use 5 med drones, and will get boosted to 4 med drones or 3 med drones + 2 lights, and lights and med drones are boosted too regarding their base damage, and there's a new skill increasing their damage introduced... I could bet it'll be really unbalanced, and that ishkur will be the new fotm AF after RMR if things go unchnaged Quote: dont fly what you cant afford to lose, always have it insured, make sure you can replace it before you take it into 0.0 or any potentially kaboomish situations.
Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:12:00 - [36] I like the idea of giving the Hawk 4 missile launcher slots. Change the model to the kestrel too, tech II kessie would be great fun.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Cade Morrigan I like the idea of giving the Hawk 4 missile launcher slots. Change the model to the kestrel too, tech II kessie would be great fun. Actually it is called manticore. Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
danneh	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:38:00 - [38] Retribution, 1 mid slot per lvl But yeah 4 mids on a vengeance whould be intresting.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:45:00 - [39] Originally by: Ysolde Xen I don't know why CCP decided that the damage deales should all have 1 slot more but if they are going to change that for 1 or two then they should change it for all. weirda suggested that all three mentioned get an extra slot... just not where it goes on the hawk... the ishkur doesn't really need 11 slots though, as it has a drone bay way better then any one slot. so in answer to your post - the suggestion was for all of them to have 11 slots, except the ishkur. also - am glad to see a few of you have seen the 'light' with a 4th mid in vengeance... a 4th low would really be useless... if you want to know what an 'amarr' would put in his 4 mids... just evemail me and will let you know. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:50:00 - [40] point of another low slot is either better tank or better dmg. Point of another med. slot... well tracking disruptor, but you can fit that now, too :) No and you cannot shield tank vengeance with current resistances :) Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so

Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:12:00 - [41] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Cade Morrigan I like the idea of giving the Hawk 4 missile launcher slots. Change the model to the kestrel too, tech II kessie would be great fun. Actually it is called manticore. I'm aware of the manticore, that's not the way i'd imagine a tech2 kestrel in any way but the model's shape.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:21:00 - [42] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Cade Morrigan I like the idea of giving the Hawk 4 missile launcher slots. Change the model to the kestrel too, tech II kessie would be great fun. Actually it is called manticore. and is completely different
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:51:00 - [43] Originally by: LUKEC point of another low slot is either better tank or better dmg. Point of another med. slot... well tracking disruptor, but you can fit that now, too :) No and you cannot shield tank vengeance with current resistances :) shield tank a vengeance?! what kind of huckleberry you think weirda is!? weirda's suggested bonus for vengeance would be resists (a la' sacri), which mean you wouldn't need another slot to tank lows... have energized th in there and you golden. that would leave the 3rd mid for dmg mod or plate (lets face it, this thing crawls already)... 4 mids though - possibilites... Originally by: danneh Retribution, 1 mid slot per lvl how about for retribution, we move one of the AS bonuses to the frigate skill, and give it a .2 midslot per level... at level 5 you would be uber! -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.02 02:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Weirda that would leave the 3rd mid for dmg mod or plate weirda made a mistake anyways, in a serious note; a 4-mid slotted vengeance would made that ship a very interesting ship to fly. oh and this has come to mind now (2.40 AM ramblings so don't flame me): what if the retribution could be changed to this: 5/1/5 as it is today, but 5 turret points, grid to fit them, and a tracking bonus on top of that (or, good heavens, a 2nd damage bonus?)? mobile small beam platform ftw? ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.02 03:43:00 - [45] Edited by: Weirda on 02/12/2005 03:45:27 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Weirda that would leave the 3rd low for dmg mod or plate weirda made a mistake what mistake? -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.02 03:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Grimpak 5/1/5 as it is today, but 5 turret points, grid to fit them, and a tracking bonus on top of that (or, good heavens, a 2nd damage bonus?)? mobile small beam platform ftw? not that it bad idea - but amarr would still whine about the mid. hell, whining all that those slavers are good for afterall... (re: zealot sucks threads) -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Meridius	Posted - 2005.12.02 04:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: Grimpak 5/1/5 as it is today, but 5 turret points, grid to fit them, and a tracking bonus on top of that (or, good heavens, a 2nd damage bonus?)? mobile small beam platform ftw? not that it bad idea - but amarr would still whine about the mid. hell, whining all that those slavers are good for afterall... (re: zealot sucks threads) I'd be fine with that. It would finally have an excuse not to be able to scramble/web a target. ________________________________________________________
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.02 04:11:00 - [48] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 02/12/2005 04:11:50 Originally by: keepiru I keep telling you weirda, extra low, not mid on vengeance. 3 mids are more than enough on an amarr assault, its an armor-tanker, k? And no, its not decent. Its a waste of db space. At least the jag is fast, the vengeance is just as useless, but slow. Woo. \o/ Does a tree make a sound when it falls in the forest if noone is there to hear it? Why do people make such remarks abut ships if it doesn't fit with the way the rest of the lemmings play? Do you even read ship descriptions before you bless us your apostolic wisdom of the vast world of EVE ? Quote: The Vengeance represents the latest in the KingdomÆs ongoing mission to wed Amarr and Caldari tech, molding the two into new and exciting forms. Sporting a Caldari shipÆs med slots and shields as well as a missile hardpoint, this relentless slugger is nonetheless Amarr through and through. Developer: Khanid Innovation Constantly striving to combine the best of two worlds, Khanid Innovation have utilized their Caldari connections to such an extent that the KingdomÆs ships now possess the most advanced shield generators outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems. Sounds to me like it can be both shield tank AND armor tank. If it had a 4th mid it could explore its shields systems and its electronics systems. Not to mention after RMR shield tanking will be great and odd combo ships will be in demand. To Weirda, I wouldn't mind the jag having a speed bonus imho. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.02 11:52:00 - [49] Edited by: Kai Lae on 02/12/2005 11:52:43 Your statement has 2 problems: 1. There is no Amarr ship in game now with more mid slots than low slots (and only 1 in development) 2. Low slot works better for the ship.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:38:00 - [50] Originally by: Kai Lae Edited by: Kai Lae on 02/12/2005 11:52:43 Your statement has 2 problems: 1. There is no Amarr ship in game now with more mid slots than low slots (and only 1 in development) 2. Low slot works better for the ship. 1) this is what tech 2 is for. 2) this is dark armarr, not amarr, they sorta follow the sansha nation route when it comes to ships. after looking at the hawk it needs the love first! give that baby some attention Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do

Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:53:00 - [51] t2 af kessie would be awesome
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.02 14:02:00 - [52] Originally by: Kaylana Syi 2) this is dark armarr, not amarr, they sorta follow the sansha nation route when it comes to ships. Succubus: 4-3-4 Phantasm: 6-4-6 Nightmare: 8-4-8 Sansha justifies mMore mids then lows? Puh-lease. ;p Vengeance interesting with 4 mids? Sure. Cap enough to actually do anything? Not with the current 10% recharge bonus, let alone with that switched to a resists bonus a la MK2 punisher. You still have to armor-tank it, and it still has the oh-so-great khanid insulting tendency of having more shields than armor. Meaning its a **** tank in the end. Vengeance with 5% resists and 5% damage would be a good start, at any rate. It'll still be slow and hard to fit, but eh. ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
MiKKa	Posted - 2005.12.02 14:58:00 - [53] I too think there should be a True Caldari AF. Caldari is a race that specializes in missiles, why not give it a missile based assault frigate, it should be there.....
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.12.02 15:24:00 - [54] Going slightly beyond topic, a second hull bonus for Assault Ships (aka AF) is a... hmm... fetish... for me. Bonus suggestions. For ship specific discussion on stats, see below. The "slugger" ship, i.e. damage focused, is listed below the utility ship (the ship with most mids or strongest tanking) Vengeance: Armour resistance +25% Retribution: Energy turret damage bonus (linear increase for additional ship bonus, instead of additive increase, i.e. with AF level 5 you get +50% damage instead of 2 * +25% = +56.25%) Hawk: Shield resistance (Adopting Merlin bonus). Harpy: Shield resistance (Adopting Merlin bonus) Ishkur: Armour repair amount +7.5% Enyo: MWD cap antinerf +10%* Jaguar: Velocity (Yes! Base velocity of 406 m/s! Interceptor senior.) Wolf: I have a feeling that a rate of fire bonus would be well over the top... * AF's have a high mass, making MWDs extremely inefficient. In order to make the bonus less useless a +50% boost makes an MWD add slightly less than 20% more capacitor when fitted. Jaguar: While the Jaguar is "missing" an extra slot, so are some other ships: Ishkur (4/3/3 with 3T 0L), Hawk (4/4/2 with 3T 2L), Vengeance (4/3/3 with 3T 1L). Incidentally, all the non-"sluggers". The "sluggers" have an extra high slot, which's usefulness can be discussed. If you're going to start dealing out slots on a "missing" basis, then add a low on all of the mentioned, except possibly the Hawk (5 mids might make it a monster). Vengeance: I fairly like this ship. It's about the only assault ship I use lately (without dying, I'm out of Ishkurs ). I am seldom in a situation where I need an Assault Frig, however. If you read the description, you'll notice that it's merely Caldari influenced. It actually, literally, says it's an "Amarr ship through and through", meaning the Caldari influence might have a Khanid ship have as many mid slots as Gallente at most. Hawk: The Hawk really need more launchers. But it doesn't stop there! * Remove turret optimal bonus * Add a missile velocity bonus (no one likes flight time boni) * Remove one turret hardpoint * Add one or two missile hardpoints (it's not the primary damage dealer after all) The CPU is more or less level. Launchers tend to take nearly the same CPU as hybrid turrets. Maybe an increase to 170 (+20) base at most is merited. --- Personal notes: I find the Vengeance quite satisfying as far as fitting options go. I have no interceptor speed expectations in it, and it's cap bonus is more or less like having a free CPR. The Retribution is my primary level 2 mission ship (when I need to work up my standings for a new corp) or a secondary level 3 mission ship. It's pretty decent at what it does - fry rats. In PvP the sheer damage output (even on armour!) is a frightening experience. Not only that, it tanks pretty well. It's a good addition to any frig fleet that needs damage support, but as far as the traditional frigate role is concerned - it's a cruiser. The Enyo I feel is well past overhyped. Frankly, I can't stand it. To put it bluntly I find it sucks. This has mostly to do with traditionally tight Gallentean CPU. I like the fitting space on the Ishkur. The drone damage output is absolutely horridle, the hordes of drones is just a graphical e-peen. Otherwise I like the well balanced nature of it. Also, small drone damage is getting fixed with RMR! It will do more damage than an Enyo after the patch, however, currently it doesn't even come close. So. When are these forums going live in game?
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.02 15:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Ithildin I like the fitting space on the Ishkur. The drone damage output is absolutely horridle, the hordes of drones is just a graphical e-peen. ...however the plated vampkur setup is known to pratically kill any kind of frig-sized ship. Plated claws are not exeption, althou it is a tight fight. ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.02 15:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Ithildin Vengeance: I fairly like this ship. It's about the only assault ship I use lately (without dying, I'm out of Ishkurs ). I am seldom in a situation where I need an Assault Frig, however. If you read the description, you'll notice that it's merely Caldari influenced. It actually, literally, says it's an "Amarr ship through and through", meaning the Caldari influence might have a Khanid ship have as many mid slots as Gallente at most. Just out of curiosity, whats your setup? I cant seem to find anything that doesent give me a "meh" feeling. ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.02 16:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ithildin I like the fitting space on the Ishkur. The drone damage output is absolutely horridle, the hordes of drones is just a graphical e-peen. ...however the plated vampkur setup is known to pratically kill any kind of frig-sized ship. Plated claws are not exeption, althou it is a tight fight. I really wonder what is this vamp plate setup as i cannot find any decent. And railtaranis will pwn you probably. Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.02 16:59:00 - [58] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ithildin I like the fitting space on the Ishkur. The drone damage output is absolutely horridle, the hordes of drones is just a graphical e-peen. ...however the plated vampkur setup is known to pratically kill any kind of frig-sized ship. Plated claws are not exeption, althou it is a tight fight. I really wonder what is this vamp plate setup as i cannot find any decent. And railtaranis will pwn you probably. hmm 2 named nosses, 2 T2 75mm rails AB, web and 20km scrammer CPR, T2 rep, and T2 200mm plate. drones are warriors. never tested it against a railranis tho... ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Kyozoku	Posted - 2005.12.02 17:06:00 - [59] Change the hawk's shield boost bonus to +5% shield resist per lvl. The eagle got it so why not hawk?
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.02 18:08:00 - [60] Originally by: keepiru Vengeance interesting with 4 mids? Sure. Cap enough to actually do anything? Not with the current 10% recharge bonus, let alone with that switched to a resists bonus a la MK2 punisher. not talking about replacing the cap bonus. talking about giving it a resist bonus in place of the 'false' resistance bonus (aka - the missing bonus). you ideas are nice though. honestly with an extra mid in there and resistance bonus, weirda would not be adverse to throw a cpr in the lows to a) help things fit in the extra mid (bear in mind also asking for extra cpu too) and b) keep those mids running. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>



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