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Jag, Vengeance, Hawk + AS 4th bonus!

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Weirda	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:19:00 - [1] with upcoming RMR new t2 ships, and mk2 changes - the lack of a 4th bonus on the Assault Ships (frigs) will devalue their role somewhat. These should get addressed ASAP (hopefully as part of RMR). That said, weirda would like to focus on 3 assault frigs that really need to be looked at - and make some suggestion for discussion: Jaguar Well, the new MK2 Rifter is now going to be 4/3/3 - which is exactly what the Jaguar is. Not much of a slot upgrade there. This, coupled with the fact that the Jaguar is 'missing' the extra slot that most of the Assault Frigs already have mean this need to be addressed NOW. don't get weirda wrong, even its current form it is one of weirda's favourite ship to fly. suggestions: +1 mid +30 cpu "false" bonus (resistance) becomes built into ship and new 4th bonus to become a shield boosting bonus (+% of boost, or -% of cap use, don't really care, it just need a 4th bonus). Vengeance Talk about red-headed stepchild. If Retribution having only 1 mid wasn't bad enough, this ship is abysmal. Strangely weirda really like it too though... maybe because it hull is so sexy, maybe because it has so much unrealized potential... dunno really. here are the suggestions: +1 mid (an additional low would be pointless and too much in direction of retribution) +40 cpu +10 grid "false" bonus (resistance) becomes built into ship and new 4th bonus to become a armor tanking bonus (+% resistance would be best) or a +25% turret damage bonus. it probably wouldn't hurt to switch the armor and shield value on this ship (khanid or not), though would be happy as clam if just the above changes were made. Hawk Weirda doesn't fly this ship, but know that something really missing from Assault Frig lineup is a missile boat. Would definately fly one if could do this (being minmatar, have very good missile skill - but CBA to train up hybrids). 2/2 turret/missile changed to 2/4 turret/missile (with no additional high slots) + appropriate new cpu to run additional launchers This ship (pretty sure) is "missing" a slot too (like the above two) and could stand to have another one (maybe even a high so that you could do a 4 launcher, 1 rail setup or something). don't know what to recommend for 4th bonus, main point of bringing this ship up is to get some caldari feedback on it. maybe a neat bonus would be % explosion radius decrease for light missile, since it is intended to hunt intys which sig radius is very resiliant to light missile. Anyhow - would love to get some feedback/addition from other player. A dev response "we're looking at a 4th bonus/etc" would be great, but really isn't expected. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
KilROCK	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:22:00 - [2] Weirda asks for too much. But yea.. pimp the jaguar a bit, Give the hawk more missle hardpoint. Vengeance is decent enough.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:25:00 - [3] Originally by: KilROCK Weirda asks for too much. But yea.. pimp the jaguar a bit, Give the hawk more missle hardpoint. Vengeance is decent enough. You do realise the Vengeance is the Khanid Assault Frigate? Its possibly the worst of the lot.
KilROCK	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:27:00 - [4] Edited by: KilROCK on 30/11/2005 19:28:20 Making it have 4 meds is not regular for any amarr ship. A Damage bonus would be decent tho. The med slot, lows, and highs are there to stay. CCP made it khanid, they won't change it into a retribution.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:30:00 - [5] What weirda said Also, can someone fix the jag model (pretty please) so that it shows the lubely guns. Brilliant idea about the hawk, though it could maybe do better with an explosion velocity bonus instead of the proposed explosion radius bonus as it has abysmal damage against long range interceptors (which is blatantly in opposition with caldari design). Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Weirda Hawk Weirda doesn't fly this ship, but know that something really missing from Assault Frig lineup is a missile boat. Would definately fly one if could do this (being minmatar, have very good missile skill - but CBA to train up hybrids). 2/2 turret/missile changed to 2/4 turret/missile (with no additional high slots) + appropriate new cpu to run additional launchers This ship (pretty sure) is "missing" a slot too (like the above two) and could stand to have another one (maybe even a high so that you could do a 4 launcher, 1 rail setup or something). don't know what to recommend for 4th bonus, main point of bringing this ship up is to get some caldari feedback on it. maybe a neat bonus would be % explosion radius decrease for light missile, since it is intended to hunt intys which sig radius is very resiliant to light missile. how about adding another mid, making it a EW/missile or shield tanker from hell/missile platform? Adjust the turret range bonus to an explosion velocity bonus too? ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:46:00 - [7] my view on this matter: vengeance: another lowslot OR switched resistances to minmater or caldari style, so it will actually be able to shieldtank(another med. slot and 1 less low then ?) Also some dmg bonus would be nice, because after RMR this ship will probably be worst than punisher. ishkur: possibly best 'small' AF, but should have drone bay size bonus built in. Because every race gets bonuses proportionally, ishkur gets best at lvl5, and it is far better than at lvl4 (4 med drones vs 5) hawk: well it has perma tank with some creativity in setting it up, but... not too popular. TBH harpy is soo much better that noone really fly this :) jaguar: probably most underrated AF, but you have to fit it like inty :)Should get falloff bonus instead of optimal, so it would be perfect AC platform. Maybe also 1 lowslot -> 1 medslot... Actually, i think all AFs need serious boost, because they not nearly as useful as intys. My last realization was: omg enyo has same cap as taranis... ffs. Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:51:00 - [8] Problems with the jaguar... Graphical errors Only one turret shows up and if you zoom out it turns into a wolf (which turns into a jag if you zoom out). Fix the graphical errors and make it blue like the stilletto . Midslots Definitely needs another mid slot. It lacks the slots to shield tank and also do the other stuff that frigates need to do with their midslots, ie. go fast, web/scramble. Add +1 midslot capacitor It could really use some more cap. The Jag inherits the Rifter's horrible capacitor with no boost. This is unnacceptable for a tech II assault frig that is supposed to shield tank and do other fancy stuff with it's mids. Boost the cap from 200 to 240. CPU The Jag could use some more CPU. Again, it is supposed to shield tank, which requires more CPU than armor tanking. Currently the Jag doesn't have the CPU to even use those midslots (and lowslots freed by shield tanking) all that well. Add +30 CPU Oh and if it is going to get a 4th bonus I'd like a 5% MWD cap bonus.
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:53:00 - [9] All Af's could maybe use some form of a "defensive" bonus, instead of the "fake" bonus that seems to be built into every other ship that gets a resist boost. Then again maybe not, maybe its better to have one with all damage or related bonuses and the other with a defense bonus, also ps why the jag Hawk and Vengeance have A less slot than the other AF is because iirc they are also "tiered" like all other ships classes. Jag and the others are the lower tier. ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Gaelron	Posted - 2005.11.30 19:56:00 - [10] I fly caldari AF's...The hawk needs 1 more high and 2 more missile hardpoints to make it viable. Until it gets that im staying a hardcore harpy fan. P.S. Dont change the powergrid/CPU just add the slots. If you add PG/CPU it will unbalance IMO.

Weirda	Posted - 2005.11.30 20:30:00 - [11] all very good feedback... keep it coming. Sorry Killrock, Jag really does need it's missing slot - a mid. Without a CPU increase though - you might as well leave it off. Also, the jag shines most when it is nOT used like an interceptor (imho) - please no MWD bonus or anything like that. Swapping falloff for optimal would be fine though - since with 280s it is nearly the same effect (only your short range ammo won't screw you as much) and those that like to fit the ACs on there would be happy. This is a great ship, but is really lacking on these fronts. Vengeance, yes it probably is the worst of the lot in a lot of ways... mainly that a punisher can outdamage it... it is khanid, they won't switch that. another mid would be MUCH better then another low (especially with a needed pg and cpu boost so that it could actually fit medium beams and something in its extra mid). Hawk - keep it coming, Weirda main concern about that is that we NEED to have a missile AF, and we don't. As for the new boni, weirda would prefer if they all stayed in line with more defensive in nature (except the recommended Hawk one), as 'gank' damage is not as important if you have better defensive bonuses. these are all just my opinion of course... any sort of boost to these ships would be great. AFs in general NEED their 4th bonus though... and will not back down on that. All the new RMR ships will cast a HUGE shadow on these if that bonus is not rectified. Right now it is only vaguely ok because there aren't a ton of other 'assault' option. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.11.30 20:39:00 - [12] Since the day that i'm using enyo with mwd & blasters... i think jaguar & ACs should perform excellent as a heavy tackler... But i cannot fly them(although i know where to get em for almost 0isk)... Vengeance with current resists cannot be shieldtanked, so it doesn't really need medslots as 3 is enough. Another low and a bit pg, so it could fit med. beamsII, missile launcher and small repper... and it could actually be useful :) But in the end all AFs should get ~20% more hp and 20% more cap. Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
Weirda	Posted - 2005.11.30 20:48:00 - [13] Originally by: LUKEC Since the day that i'm using enyo with mwd & blasters... i think jaguar & ACs should perform excellent as a heavy tackler... But i cannot fly them(although i know where to get em for almost 0isk)... Vengeance with current resists cannot be shieldtanked, so it doesn't really need medslots as 3 is enough. Another low and a bit pg, so it could fit med. beamsII, missile launcher and small repper... and it could actually be useful :) But in the end all AFs should get ~20% more hp and 20% more cap. the extra mid request on the vengeance is for more toys - not a shield tank... it would just really sadden weirda to see the vengeance get another low... with 3 lows for tanking - it is great with its current resists. it lacks cpu to fit it as currently, and grid to fit the beams that you should be fitting on it (since it only carry three). again... weirdas opinion flying them... that extra mid would really give it a role - the khanid can pretend that the mid is there for shield tanking, but we all know better... -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Trey Azagthoth	Posted - 2005.11.30 20:55:00 - [14] Weird refers to themself in the third person too much...
Trey Azagthoth	Posted - 2005.11.30 20:55:00 - [15] Weird refers to themself in the third person too much...EVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
Weirda	Posted - 2005.11.30 22:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Trey Azagthoth Weird refers to themself in the third person too much... updated title of thread - and... who is this 3rd person everyone always talking to weirda about? should they be podded? -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
KilROCK	Posted - 2005.11.30 22:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: Trey Azagthoth Weird refers to themself in the third person too much... updated title of thread - and... who is this 3rd person everyone always talking to weirda about? should they be podded? I saw some minmatar char in another tread, looking kinda like Weirda doing the same thing, I was like 'omg a wnnabe weirda'
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.01 00:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Weirda the extra mid request on the vengeance is for more toys - not a shield tank... it would just really sadden weirda to see the vengeance get another low... with 3 lows for tanking - it is great with its current resists. it lacks cpu to fit it as currently, and grid to fit the beams that you should be fitting on it (since it only carry three). again... weirdas opinion flying them... that extra mid would really give it a role - the khanid can pretend that the mid is there for shield tanking, but we all know better... +1 Lowslot, not +1 mid. Amarr players don't, in general, have skills to make use of 4 mid slots. The advantage of the vengeance is that with that cap recharge bonus it has the equivalent of a CPR built into the ship. This allows the easy use of a MWD on the ship. With another low slot, you can then add a HS II for damage, or go with even more tank. As for the ship itself it should adopt the tanking bonuses of the punisher. IMO, ditch the optimal bonus. Basically: +1 Low slot Amarr Frigate bonuses: 10% Reduction in small energy turret cap use, 5% bonus to armor resistances per level. Assault Ships Skill bonus: 5% bonus to small energy turret damage per level and 5% bonus to cap recharge rate per level. This would be a nice ship, and would give a viable alternative to the retribution (which, IMO, is the retribution's biggest problem). While there at it, fix the medium beam grid, it's horrible (and TomB said it'd be looked into, what's the deal?). Also: Jag - +1 med, (frigate) 5% projectile damage, 5% tracking, (AF) 10% falloff, 5% tracking. Hawk - +1 med, +1 launcher hardpoint (NOTE - you really don't want only launcher hardpoints, it makes setups a bit predictable), (frigate) 5% bonus to missile ROF, 5% bonus to shield resists, (AF) 5% bonus to missile velocity, 5% bonus to rocket and standard missile damage per level. And fix the Ares and raptor, dammit!
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2005.12.01 00:44:00 - [19] First off the number of slots for these Tier 1 AFs is the same for all 4 (including the Ishkur) so unless the tier paradigm is changed for all four then I'm not sure adding extra slots to 1 or maybe 2 would be balanced. What they do all need (all 8 AFs) is that 4th bonus! Don't know the Vengeance so can't really comment there. All I hear is whining about how you need many different skills to make the most of it and as a Minmatar pilot I'm afraid that one falls on deaf ears. Hawk - I thoroughly agree that it needs another missile hardpoint (at least) and then it can have another nice missile bonus for it's 4th. But I don't (yet) fly Caldari AFs so I'm not so sure what else needs doing to it. Jaguar is my favourite pet, partly because it is so vastly underestimated. Again more slots would be nice but I'm not sure that's the best way of powering it up a bit whilst keeping it in line with the others. DEFINITELY more CPU and Cap! As for the optimal bonus - I think it fits fine and doesn't need changing but we could certainly have the 4th bonus being falloff to open the AC-side a little more. It performs better with artillery than trying to stuff it into the AC/MWD near-inty role. A shield-boosting bonus might also be useful. Or... a cap recharge bonus? At any rate it needs to be bumped up from Rifter-But-Costly-And-Heavy to Assault Ship with it's own niche.
Sorja	Posted - 2005.12.01 00:57:00 - [20] Hawk doesn't need a 5th high slot, the reason why it's a bad ship is twofold: 1¦ Split bonuses 2¦ Missiles are subpar on frigs (excepted rockets but the Hawk is too sluggish to use blasters/rockets) Missiles are going to be improved, hopefully, so if the Hawk gets a bonus for all of his weapons it will be fine. Just make it the Kestrel tech II, problem solved. ____________________________________ Let's make the MK2 Moa a ship worth flying.

Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.01 01:03:00 - [21] Originally by: Ysolde Xen First off the number of slots for these Tier 1 AFs is the same for all 4 (including the Ishkur) <snip> If you can find anywhere where it lists that there are actually supposed to be 2 tiers of AF, then please do so. There is no skill difference required. The larger ship above it, HAC, all have the same number of slots, 15. However, AF do not, and for no good reason I can tell. I reject this idea that each race has a "good" AF and one that's supposed to suck. I rather think they should all be good.
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.01 02:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Ysolde Xen First off the number of slots for these Tier 1 AFs is the same for all 4 (including the Ishkur) so unless the tier paradigm is changed for all four then I'm not sure adding extra slots to 1 or maybe 2 would be balanced. What they do all need (all 8 AFs) is that 4th bonus! Well, indeed, for each race there is an AF with 10 slots, and one with 11. Though, ishkur has a big drone bay to make up for that lost slot, while the other 3 get nothing at all. All three (vengeance, jag, hawk) need another slot (med for jag, low for vengeance, med/high for hawk), specialy considering the increased drone abilities of ishkur with patch (before patch, 5 med drones, after patch, 4 med drones, equivalent to 8 current ones...). Hawk needs more missle hardpoints too (at least one, 2 would be better). As for the jag, the suggested -cap usage of shiel booster bonus would be nice, maybe better than shield boost bonus Quote: dont fly what you cant afford to lose, always have it insured, make sure you can replace it before you take it into 0.0 or any potentially kaboomish situations.
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.12.01 02:52:00 - [23] Please give the vengeance a med slot and dmg or rof bonus. It shouldn't have a low as it needs to remain different from a retirbution, and it needs dmg or rof to be useful.
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.01 02:54:00 - [24] I keep telling you weirda, extra low, not mid on vengeance. 3 mids are more than enough on an amarr assault, its an armor-tanker, k? And no, its not decent. Its a waste of db space. At least the jag is fast, the vengeance is just as useless, but slow. Woo. \o/ ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.01 05:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Sorja Just make it the Kestrel tech II, problem solved. 4/5/2 with 4/2 missile/turret and 3 missile bonuses + shield boosting bonus? ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Ghoest	Posted - 2005.12.01 05:44:00 - [26] The hawk needs 2 more missle slots.
Arimai	Posted - 2005.12.01 06:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Ysolde Xen Jaguar is my favourite pet, partly because it is so vastly underestimated. Again more slots would be nice but I'm not sure that's the best way of powering it up a bit whilst keeping it in line with the others. DEFINITELY more CPU and Cap! As for the optimal bonus - I think it fits fine and doesn't need changing but we could certainly have the 4th bonus being falloff to open the AC-side a little more. It performs better with artillery than trying to stuff it into the AC/MWD near-inty role. A shield-boosting bonus might also be useful. Or... a cap recharge bonus? At any rate it needs to be bumped up from Rifter-But-Costly-And-Heavy to Assault Ship with it's own niche. 'Rifter but very easily 400mm-able' oh wait thats going to get nerved. It has a lack of slots to do either well (armor/shieldtank), and it just has the wrong resistances compared to other races af's (aka 2 armor holes, overall kinda low shield resists)
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.12.01 08:24:00 - [28] As much as the Hawk sucks for damage, it is a good tanker. A corpmate joined me for a lvl 3 GE and flew his hawk. Having just over 900 shields, he tanked just a tad better than my harpy which was 701 shields. Altho my damage was slightly better, but a Hawk setup for tanking could be extremely useful for PvE, however in PvP I'd rather have a Harpy. If the Hawk gets a 4th bonus, make it something like a 50% reduction for fitting shield extenders or something tank-related. Turn the Hawk into the shield tanking AF. My only AF concern (excluding how the Hawk blows so badly) is that the Ishkur is going to end up being absurdly buff with the drone changes. Having 4 light drones or 2 med drones in place of a 4th gun is pretty damn nice, since even if someone does manage to kill off your drones, they've most likely taken a heavy beating in doing so, leaving you fresh for tanking their crippled ship. 2/4 turret/launcher might be too much for the hawk, but a 2/3 would be good enough I think. The Hawk really can't compare to the Harpy though. A harpy's damage output is just so much better that those extra 1-200 shields on the hawk mean nothing because you take 30% longer to kill things. ------------------------------------ Quote: 1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225 90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.12.01 09:55:00 - [29] Making the Hawk into a missile boat would be cool. Currently, there is no missile-based AF, and Hawk would not need huge modifications -- a few more missile slots, modified bonuses.
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.12.01 10:19:00 - [30] I suggest the enyo gets a -7.5% to rep duration bonus a la brutix) and the ishkur gets a MWD bonus (a la thorax) as we all know the ishkur is better as a close range nos/blaster boat My Latest Vid (16/11/05)

Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2005.12.01 11:01:00 - [31] Originally by: Arimai It has a lack of slots to do either well (armor/shieldtank), and it just has the wrong resistances compared to other races af's (aka 2 armor holes, overall kinda low shield resists) Actually, fit a kinetic shield amp (a good one) and it's shield resistances are 70/60/60/60. That's ratehr nice for a shield tanker and the Jagaur functions better as a shield tanker than an armour tanker. Besides which if you're making use of it's speed correctly you won't be taking that much damage in the first place.
Blackest Sheep	Posted - 2005.12.01 11:02:00 - [32] Originally by: Eyeshadow I suggest the enyo gets a -7.5% to rep duration bonus a la brutix) and the ishkur gets a MWD bonus (a la thorax) as we all know the ishkur is better as a close range nos/blaster boat Seconded! Actually, fourth bonuses for the small assaults would be nice. They can use the boost and it would not hurt anybody to put them in. It is not as if they would break the game, but they might get more useful.
Kurenin	Posted - 2005.12.01 11:09:00 - [33] Edited by: Kurenin on 01/12/2005 11:13:52 Weirda like yoda talks. Like Sulik from Fallout 2 also does Weirda talk. Grampybone like Weirda. We and I be liking this thread too. ----- Interestingly, other people know me better than I know myself.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.01 14:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Ysolde Xen I don't know why CCP decided that the damage deales should all have 1 slot more but if they are going to change that for 1 or two then they should change it for all. I'll agree that there seems to be 2 kinds of AF, sorted by design idea - a damage AF, and a tanking/general purpose AF. The second kind has only 10 slots. This makes no sense, especially when you look at ships like the jaguar and vengeance, which have the same number of slots as their base models (speaking of the rifter Mk2 here). This is the only case in T2 ships where this can be seen. I think the reason for this is that CCP have done something dumb with regards to assault frigates, in that they didn't really pay enough attention to these ships. Look at interceptors - they had to change the bonuses because they didn't get it really right out of the box the first time. Logistics - originally had no extra slots as well, were considerably improved later when CCP realized that they needed a boost. That's all I, and other people like Weirda (EB Portal forum troll FTW) are asking, is that CCP do what they did to interceptors and give these ships another look. I think that all of these ships should have the same number of slots, 11, and Weirda has pointed out repeatedly that the bonuses don't make sense when compared with all other T2 ships. I've laid out what I believe would work on the ships that are the worst cases already in a previous post. Though I don't think CCP will listen to me, because I've said it all before several times, if enough people were to complain maybe they'd get around to doing something about it. In short, IMO don't accept AF being on the short end of the T2 stick - if it doesn't work as well as it should, ask to have it fixed by the designer.
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.01 19:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia My only AF concern (excluding how the Hawk blows so badly) is that the Ishkur is going to end up being absurdly buff with the drone changes. Having 4 light drones or 2 med drones in place of a 4th gun is pretty damn nice, since even if someone does manage to kill off your drones, they've most likely taken a heavy beating in doing so, leaving you fresh for tanking their crippled ship. Small correction, with AF skill maxed, the ishkur can now use 5 med drones, and will get boosted to 4 med drones or 3 med drones + 2 lights, and lights and med drones are boosted too regarding their base damage, and there's a new skill increasing their damage introduced... I could bet it'll be really unbalanced, and that ishkur will be the new fotm AF after RMR if things go unchnaged Quote: dont fly what you cant afford to lose, always have it insured, make sure you can replace it before you take it into 0.0 or any potentially kaboomish situations.
Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:12:00 - [36] I like the idea of giving the Hawk 4 missile launcher slots. Change the model to the kestrel too, tech II kessie would be great fun.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Cade Morrigan I like the idea of giving the Hawk 4 missile launcher slots. Change the model to the kestrel too, tech II kessie would be great fun. Actually it is called manticore. Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
danneh	Posted - 2005.12.01 21:38:00 - [38] Retribution, 1 mid slot per lvl But yeah 4 mids on a vengeance whould be intresting.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:45:00 - [39] Originally by: Ysolde Xen I don't know why CCP decided that the damage deales should all have 1 slot more but if they are going to change that for 1 or two then they should change it for all. weirda suggested that all three mentioned get an extra slot... just not where it goes on the hawk... the ishkur doesn't really need 11 slots though, as it has a drone bay way better then any one slot. so in answer to your post - the suggestion was for all of them to have 11 slots, except the ishkur. also - am glad to see a few of you have seen the 'light' with a 4th mid in vengeance... a 4th low would really be useless... if you want to know what an 'amarr' would put in his 4 mids... just evemail me and will let you know. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.01 22:50:00 - [40] point of another low slot is either better tank or better dmg. Point of another med. slot... well tracking disruptor, but you can fit that now, too :) No and you cannot shield tank vengeance with current resistances :) Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so

Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:12:00 - [41] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Cade Morrigan I like the idea of giving the Hawk 4 missile launcher slots. Change the model to the kestrel too, tech II kessie would be great fun. Actually it is called manticore. I'm aware of the manticore, that's not the way i'd imagine a tech2 kestrel in any way but the model's shape.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:21:00 - [42] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Cade Morrigan I like the idea of giving the Hawk 4 missile launcher slots. Change the model to the kestrel too, tech II kessie would be great fun. Actually it is called manticore. and is completely different
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.01 23:51:00 - [43] Originally by: LUKEC point of another low slot is either better tank or better dmg. Point of another med. slot... well tracking disruptor, but you can fit that now, too :) No and you cannot shield tank vengeance with current resistances :) shield tank a vengeance?! what kind of huckleberry you think weirda is!? weirda's suggested bonus for vengeance would be resists (a la' sacri), which mean you wouldn't need another slot to tank lows... have energized th in there and you golden. that would leave the 3rd mid for dmg mod or plate (lets face it, this thing crawls already)... 4 mids though - possibilites... Originally by: danneh Retribution, 1 mid slot per lvl how about for retribution, we move one of the AS bonuses to the frigate skill, and give it a .2 midslot per level... at level 5 you would be uber! -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.02 02:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Weirda that would leave the 3rd mid for dmg mod or plate weirda made a mistake anyways, in a serious note; a 4-mid slotted vengeance would made that ship a very interesting ship to fly. oh and this has come to mind now (2.40 AM ramblings so don't flame me): what if the retribution could be changed to this: 5/1/5 as it is today, but 5 turret points, grid to fit them, and a tracking bonus on top of that (or, good heavens, a 2nd damage bonus?)? mobile small beam platform ftw? ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.02 03:43:00 - [45] Edited by: Weirda on 02/12/2005 03:45:27 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Weirda that would leave the 3rd low for dmg mod or plate weirda made a mistake what mistake? -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.02 03:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Grimpak 5/1/5 as it is today, but 5 turret points, grid to fit them, and a tracking bonus on top of that (or, good heavens, a 2nd damage bonus?)? mobile small beam platform ftw? not that it bad idea - but amarr would still whine about the mid. hell, whining all that those slavers are good for afterall... (re: zealot sucks threads) -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Meridius	Posted - 2005.12.02 04:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: Grimpak 5/1/5 as it is today, but 5 turret points, grid to fit them, and a tracking bonus on top of that (or, good heavens, a 2nd damage bonus?)? mobile small beam platform ftw? not that it bad idea - but amarr would still whine about the mid. hell, whining all that those slavers are good for afterall... (re: zealot sucks threads) I'd be fine with that. It would finally have an excuse not to be able to scramble/web a target. ________________________________________________________
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.02 04:11:00 - [48] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 02/12/2005 04:11:50 Originally by: keepiru I keep telling you weirda, extra low, not mid on vengeance. 3 mids are more than enough on an amarr assault, its an armor-tanker, k? And no, its not decent. Its a waste of db space. At least the jag is fast, the vengeance is just as useless, but slow. Woo. \o/ Does a tree make a sound when it falls in the forest if noone is there to hear it? Why do people make such remarks abut ships if it doesn't fit with the way the rest of the lemmings play? Do you even read ship descriptions before you bless us your apostolic wisdom of the vast world of EVE ? Quote: The Vengeance represents the latest in the KingdomÆs ongoing mission to wed Amarr and Caldari tech, molding the two into new and exciting forms. Sporting a Caldari shipÆs med slots and shields as well as a missile hardpoint, this relentless slugger is nonetheless Amarr through and through. Developer: Khanid Innovation Constantly striving to combine the best of two worlds, Khanid Innovation have utilized their Caldari connections to such an extent that the KingdomÆs ships now possess the most advanced shield generators outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems. Sounds to me like it can be both shield tank AND armor tank. If it had a 4th mid it could explore its shields systems and its electronics systems. Not to mention after RMR shield tanking will be great and odd combo ships will be in demand. To Weirda, I wouldn't mind the jag having a speed bonus imho. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.02 11:52:00 - [49] Edited by: Kai Lae on 02/12/2005 11:52:43 Your statement has 2 problems: 1. There is no Amarr ship in game now with more mid slots than low slots (and only 1 in development) 2. Low slot works better for the ship.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:38:00 - [50] Originally by: Kai Lae Edited by: Kai Lae on 02/12/2005 11:52:43 Your statement has 2 problems: 1. There is no Amarr ship in game now with more mid slots than low slots (and only 1 in development) 2. Low slot works better for the ship. 1) this is what tech 2 is for. 2) this is dark armarr, not amarr, they sorta follow the sansha nation route when it comes to ships. after looking at the hawk it needs the love first! give that baby some attention Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do

Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:53:00 - [51] t2 af kessie would be awesome
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.02 14:02:00 - [52] Originally by: Kaylana Syi 2) this is dark armarr, not amarr, they sorta follow the sansha nation route when it comes to ships. Succubus: 4-3-4 Phantasm: 6-4-6 Nightmare: 8-4-8 Sansha justifies mMore mids then lows? Puh-lease. ;p Vengeance interesting with 4 mids? Sure. Cap enough to actually do anything? Not with the current 10% recharge bonus, let alone with that switched to a resists bonus a la MK2 punisher. You still have to armor-tank it, and it still has the oh-so-great khanid insulting tendency of having more shields than armor. Meaning its a **** tank in the end. Vengeance with 5% resists and 5% damage would be a good start, at any rate. It'll still be slow and hard to fit, but eh. ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
MiKKa	Posted - 2005.12.02 14:58:00 - [53] I too think there should be a True Caldari AF. Caldari is a race that specializes in missiles, why not give it a missile based assault frigate, it should be there.....
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.12.02 15:24:00 - [54] Going slightly beyond topic, a second hull bonus for Assault Ships (aka AF) is a... hmm... fetish... for me. Bonus suggestions. For ship specific discussion on stats, see below. The "slugger" ship, i.e. damage focused, is listed below the utility ship (the ship with most mids or strongest tanking) Vengeance: Armour resistance +25% Retribution: Energy turret damage bonus (linear increase for additional ship bonus, instead of additive increase, i.e. with AF level 5 you get +50% damage instead of 2 * +25% = +56.25%) Hawk: Shield resistance (Adopting Merlin bonus). Harpy: Shield resistance (Adopting Merlin bonus) Ishkur: Armour repair amount +7.5% Enyo: MWD cap antinerf +10%* Jaguar: Velocity (Yes! Base velocity of 406 m/s! Interceptor senior.) Wolf: I have a feeling that a rate of fire bonus would be well over the top... * AF's have a high mass, making MWDs extremely inefficient. In order to make the bonus less useless a +50% boost makes an MWD add slightly less than 20% more capacitor when fitted. Jaguar: While the Jaguar is "missing" an extra slot, so are some other ships: Ishkur (4/3/3 with 3T 0L), Hawk (4/4/2 with 3T 2L), Vengeance (4/3/3 with 3T 1L). Incidentally, all the non-"sluggers". The "sluggers" have an extra high slot, which's usefulness can be discussed. If you're going to start dealing out slots on a "missing" basis, then add a low on all of the mentioned, except possibly the Hawk (5 mids might make it a monster). Vengeance: I fairly like this ship. It's about the only assault ship I use lately (without dying, I'm out of Ishkurs ). I am seldom in a situation where I need an Assault Frig, however. If you read the description, you'll notice that it's merely Caldari influenced. It actually, literally, says it's an "Amarr ship through and through", meaning the Caldari influence might have a Khanid ship have as many mid slots as Gallente at most. Hawk: The Hawk really need more launchers. But it doesn't stop there! * Remove turret optimal bonus * Add a missile velocity bonus (no one likes flight time boni) * Remove one turret hardpoint * Add one or two missile hardpoints (it's not the primary damage dealer after all) The CPU is more or less level. Launchers tend to take nearly the same CPU as hybrid turrets. Maybe an increase to 170 (+20) base at most is merited. --- Personal notes: I find the Vengeance quite satisfying as far as fitting options go. I have no interceptor speed expectations in it, and it's cap bonus is more or less like having a free CPR. The Retribution is my primary level 2 mission ship (when I need to work up my standings for a new corp) or a secondary level 3 mission ship. It's pretty decent at what it does - fry rats. In PvP the sheer damage output (even on armour!) is a frightening experience. Not only that, it tanks pretty well. It's a good addition to any frig fleet that needs damage support, but as far as the traditional frigate role is concerned - it's a cruiser. The Enyo I feel is well past overhyped. Frankly, I can't stand it. To put it bluntly I find it sucks. This has mostly to do with traditionally tight Gallentean CPU. I like the fitting space on the Ishkur. The drone damage output is absolutely horridle, the hordes of drones is just a graphical e-peen. Otherwise I like the well balanced nature of it. Also, small drone damage is getting fixed with RMR! It will do more damage than an Enyo after the patch, however, currently it doesn't even come close. So. When are these forums going live in game?
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.02 15:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Ithildin I like the fitting space on the Ishkur. The drone damage output is absolutely horridle, the hordes of drones is just a graphical e-peen. ...however the plated vampkur setup is known to pratically kill any kind of frig-sized ship. Plated claws are not exeption, althou it is a tight fight. ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.02 15:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Ithildin Vengeance: I fairly like this ship. It's about the only assault ship I use lately (without dying, I'm out of Ishkurs ). I am seldom in a situation where I need an Assault Frig, however. If you read the description, you'll notice that it's merely Caldari influenced. It actually, literally, says it's an "Amarr ship through and through", meaning the Caldari influence might have a Khanid ship have as many mid slots as Gallente at most. Just out of curiosity, whats your setup? I cant seem to find anything that doesent give me a "meh" feeling. ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.02 16:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ithildin I like the fitting space on the Ishkur. The drone damage output is absolutely horridle, the hordes of drones is just a graphical e-peen. ...however the plated vampkur setup is known to pratically kill any kind of frig-sized ship. Plated claws are not exeption, althou it is a tight fight. I really wonder what is this vamp plate setup as i cannot find any decent. And railtaranis will pwn you probably. Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.02 16:59:00 - [58] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ithildin I like the fitting space on the Ishkur. The drone damage output is absolutely horridle, the hordes of drones is just a graphical e-peen. ...however the plated vampkur setup is known to pratically kill any kind of frig-sized ship. Plated claws are not exeption, althou it is a tight fight. I really wonder what is this vamp plate setup as i cannot find any decent. And railtaranis will pwn you probably. hmm 2 named nosses, 2 T2 75mm rails AB, web and 20km scrammer CPR, T2 rep, and T2 200mm plate. drones are warriors. never tested it against a railranis tho... ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Kyozoku	Posted - 2005.12.02 17:06:00 - [59] Change the hawk's shield boost bonus to +5% shield resist per lvl. The eagle got it so why not hawk?
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.02 18:08:00 - [60] Originally by: keepiru Vengeance interesting with 4 mids? Sure. Cap enough to actually do anything? Not with the current 10% recharge bonus, let alone with that switched to a resists bonus a la MK2 punisher. not talking about replacing the cap bonus. talking about giving it a resist bonus in place of the 'false' resistance bonus (aka - the missing bonus). you ideas are nice though. honestly with an extra mid in there and resistance bonus, weirda would not be adverse to throw a cpr in the lows to a) help things fit in the extra mid (bear in mind also asking for extra cpu too) and b) keep those mids running. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>

Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.03 01:43:00 - [61] A low slot works better. Most amarr players won't have trained up the skills to shield tank the ship, therefore an additional medium slot will get the same kind reception that the sac has with missiles (another item that most amarr players don't have). The vengeance has issues currently with damage because it has no bonuses to damage on the ship, and this is the biggest issue with it. Therefore, removing the optimal bonus and replacing it with small gun ROF or damage will make this a far more attractive ship. At the same time the additional low slot can be used for a tracking enhancer (if you really liked that additional range) or a heat sink to increase the damage even more. At the same time adopting the base model's armor resists as it's missing bonus would fit the ship well in both form and function (see sac). However when you get right down to it are we just ****ing in the wind here? CCP seem not to have this topic even on their radar, much less up for possible action. Combine these ships and others such as the ares, raptor, sacrelidge, etc and it's obvious that a revisit of some T2 ships is necessary. Will CCP ever however agree?
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.03 03:11:00 - [62] Originally by: Ithildin Jaguar: While the Jaguar is "missing" an extra slot, so are some other ships: Ishkur (4/3/3 with 3T 0L), Hawk (4/4/2 with 3T 2L), Vengeance (4/3/3 with 3T 1L). Incidentally, all the non-"sluggers". The "sluggers" have an extra high slot, which's usefulness can be discussed. If you're going to start dealing out slots on a "missing" basis, then add a low on all of the mentioned, except possibly the Hawk (5 mids might make it a monster). Of the 4, Ishkur don't need that extra slot, as it has a friggin' drone bay which is worth more than one slot (and which is neatly boosted with RMR)! As for the jag, I bet no jag pilot would like an additional low, but an additional med, helping it to shield tank like it's supposed to . Quote: dont fly what you cant afford to lose, always have it insured, make sure you can replace it before you take it into 0.0 or any potentially kaboomish situations.
Comanche II	Posted - 2005.12.03 08:46:00 - [63] Originally by: Naughty Boy What weirda said Also, can someone fix the jag model (pretty please) so that it shows the lubely guns. Brilliant idea about the hawk, though it could maybe do better with an explosion velocity bonus instead of the proposed explosion radius bonus as it has abysmal damage against long range interceptors (which is blatantly in opposition with caldari design). Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. Ze lubely guns do infact show on the Jag on SiSi now
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.12.03 09:19:00 - [64] Originally by: Comanche II Ze lubely guns do infact show on the Jag on SiSi now My toon on sisi can't fly the jaguar, that's how i didn't notice Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.03 19:37:00 - [65] Originally by: Trelennen Of the 4, Ishkur don't need that extra slot, as it has a friggin' drone bay which is worth more than one slot (and which is neatly boosted with RMR)! As for the jag, I bet no jag pilot would like an additional low, but an additional med, helping it to shield tank like it's supposed to . I think the consensus on this ship pretty much says it needs an additional mid slot. The only questions past that point are what the missing bonus should be.
Blaine McKlellan	Posted - 2005.12.03 19:44:00 - [66] Originally by: Ithildin Enyo: MWD cap antinerf +10%* * AF's have a high mass, making MWDs extremely inefficient. In order to make the bonus less useless a +50% boost makes an MWD add slightly less than 20% more capacitor when fitted. Why not a bonus to propulsion strength instead? Or maybe a duration/cap requirement boost/decrease? Just to shake things up a bit more.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.03 21:59:00 - [67] Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: Trelennen Of the 4, Ishkur don't need that extra slot, as it has a friggin' drone bay which is worth more than one slot (and which is neatly boosted with RMR)! As for the jag, I bet no jag pilot would like an additional low, but an additional med, helping it to shield tank like it's supposed to . I think the consensus on this ship pretty much says it needs an additional mid slot. The only questions past that point are what the missing bonus should be. if you start adding bonuses like that, here's my pick: Jaguar: speed Wolf: tough one.. can't see a good bonus to it without making it too powerfull. maybe hitpoints? Ishkur: drone damage (or drone hitpoints) Enyo: the mwd bonus thingy or the repair bonus thingy. both are good ones. harpy: tracking? hawk: this one could use a total revamping in the bonuses, making them all missile with a shield boosting one. Retribution: hmm... second damage bonus or a tracking bonus. Vengeance: damage bonus for sure. ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.03 22:53:00 - [68] Wolf, tracking perhaps. As for the vengeance, I say ditch the optimal bonus, replace with a armor resist bonus, and add in a damage bonus (or ROF bonus for flavor, but devs don't like frig ROF). Hawk I like shield resists and missiles. Retribution I'd go with tracking again, Enyo repair bonus sounds nice. Frankly MWD I don't like because the ishkur works generally better with blasters actually in my experience. As for ishkur something obviously with drones, drone HP sounds good. The speed bonus to the jaguar sounds good, you'd have a mini vagabond then and it would be cool :)
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.04 02:35:00 - [69] speed bonus for the jag sounds good. A drone bonus for ishkur makes sense, but certainly not damage, as it'll already have really high damage with RMR, so drone HP should be good . wolf, armor HP or armor res maybe? Quote: dont fly what you cant afford to lose, always have it insured, make sure you can replace it before you take it into 0.0 or any potentially kaboomish situations.
Kyozoku	Posted - 2005.12.04 15:19:00 - [70] Have you any of you considered that maybe the afs with missing slots where intended to be weaker? Like the same way a nub buys an executioner before saving for his punisher. I'd like to see them buffed but I quite like buying 3 hawks for the price of a harpy.

slip66	Posted - 2005.12.04 16:12:00 - [71] a extra mid on the vengence would help the ship allot IMO. Not to much in the way of dmg but can take a small beating. I would like the ability to add a extra support mod like a tracking disrupter etc along side my web, scrammbler and mwd.
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.04 20:27:00 - [72] Edited by: Trelennen on 04/12/2005 20:27:34 Originally by: Kyozoku Have you any of you considered that maybe the afs with missing slots where intended to be weaker? Like the same way a nub buys an executioner before saving for his punisher. I'd like to see them buffed but I quite like buying 3 hawks for the price of a harpy. The difference is that they require the exact same skills to fly them, while an executioner requires only frig 2, and a punisher frig 3. And executioner costs like 30k to build, punisher 300k. Here's the base cost for AFs: - jaguar = 3,435,444 ISK > wolf = 3,295,668 ISK - the jag is the "weak" minmatar AF - ishkur = 3,208,068 ISK < enyo = 3,417,000 ISK - the ishkur is the "weak" gallente AF - hawk = 3,445,488 ISK > harpy = 3,412,932 ISK - the hawk is the "weak" caldari AF - vengeance = 3,402,384 ISK < retribution = 3,433,904 ISK - the vengeance is the "weak" amarr AF. See a pattern? There's none, half of the "weak" AF cost more to build than the corresponding other AF. And anyway, the base price difference is negligeable. So, there's no skill difference to fly them, and there's no real difference in build price, some of the weak being even more expensive to build than the other one, so absolutely nothing allows the comparison with executioner / punisher. I would also add that ishkur is different from the 3 other 10 slots AF, as ishkur has a drone bay to make up for this 11th slot, so it can be considered to have "11" slots (usualy drone carriers have one less slot than the other equivalent ships, to compensate for the big drone bay). In the end, we have 3 AF with a missing slots and abo**ely nothing to compensate. Quote:** dont fly what you cant afford to lose, always have it insured, make sure you can replace it before you take it into 0.0 or any potentially kaboomish situations.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.04 20:29:00 - [73] Post RMR, the Ishkur is the STRONG side of that equasion. (Massive drone damage boost!) Jag and Hawk need some love? Yes. Vengence? Mm well it seems popular anyway, but I could be convinced. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.04 21:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Maya Rkell Post RMR, the Ishkur is the STRONG side of that equasion. (Massive drone damage boost!) Jag and Hawk need some love? Yes. Vengence? Mm well it seems popular anyway, but I could be convinced. well solo retri is pointless... guess what's left Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.05 09:48:00 - [75] The biggest problem with the retribution's 1 mid slot, is that the vengeance isn't any good, and therefore isn't thought to be a good alternate. That, IMO, is why you see people complain about it. If the vengeance was as good as the other AF people would fly it instead of trying to make the retribution do what it wasn't designed to do.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.12.05 09:52:00 - [76] Originally by: Kai Lae The biggest problem with the retribution's 1 mid slot, is that the vengeance isn't any good, and therefore isn't thought to be a good alternate. That, IMO, is why you see people complain about it. If the vengeance was as good as the other AF people would fly it instead of trying to make the retribution do what it wasn't designed to do. Hmmm, I curious, why isn't the Vengeance any good? I don't fly it myself, but from looking at the stats it looks decent enough. Are there some fitting issues, or what am I missing here?
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.05 10:00:00 - [77] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Kai Lae The biggest problem with the retribution's 1 mid slot, is that the vengeance isn't any good, and therefore isn't thought to be a good alternate. That, IMO, is why you see people complain about it. If the vengeance was as good as the other AF people would fly it instead of trying to make the retribution do what it wasn't designed to do. Hmmm, I curious, why isn't the Vengeance any good? I don't fly it myself, but from looking at the stats it looks decent enough. Are there some fitting issues, or what am I missing here? damage. vengeance's damage is pathetic. ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2005.12.07 22:03:00 - [78] The Wolf could do with a boost in CPU, and maybe even some PG thats for sure. Like 30 CPU/5 PG would be enough. Having 2 holes in your Armor instead of one means fitting twice the amount of hardeners. Something which is nigh impossible without gimping the rest of your setup even with good fitting skills, even if it were possible this usurps a lowslot which could otherwise be used to boost damage or cap. The real problem with Minmatar frigates however is the fact there are only really 2 guns to speak of: the 150mm Autocannon and the 280mm Artilery. 250mm's are supposed to be the Minmatar awnser to the 125mm Railgun, when in reality the damage is more like that of a 75mm Railgun. So you're stuck with using 280's which have hefty fitting requirements. This is why a Harpy will beat a Wolf, 9 out of 10 times. Not only does the Wolf have that gaping hole in its resists, it also has to cope with the superior damage (with far easier fitting) of 125mm's.
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.07 22:52:00 - [79] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Kai Lae The biggest problem with the retribution's 1 mid slot, is that the vengeance isn't any good, and therefore isn't thought to be a good alternate. That, IMO, is why you see people complain about it. If the vengeance was as good as the other AF people would fly it instead of trying to make the retribution do what it wasn't designed to do. Hmmm, I curious, why isn't the Vengeance any good? I don't fly it myself, but from looking at the stats it looks decent enough. Are there some fitting issues, or what am I missing here? damage. vengeance's damage is pathetic. Oh, and dont forget: its slow awful hp distribution, makes for bad tank frigate beam fittings being able to do more than 1 launcher's worth of damage on top of a punisher would be a good start though. ------------- Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.08 05:51:00 - [80] AF are also unusually slow. Typical speeds (non minmatar) range from 230 m/s to about 250m/s. This in general is slower than the frigates they are based on. In fact, only 1 AF, the jaguar, is faster than the base ship (RMR values). They should have their speed raised into around the 280 range IMO, as they are now the speed is very similar to a cruiser, even though it's a much smaller ship.

Marcus Starr	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:41:00 - [81] Would be interesting to see Hawk changed to a 3 Hi, 5 Med, 2 Low setup. 2 missile and 3 turret slots. Change shield boost bonus to shield resist bonus for all damage types and change hybrid bonus to -10% cap usage for ECM
Kyozoku	Posted - 2005.12.08 09:10:00 - [82] 4 missile slots. 5% missile rof, 5% missile dmg 10% missile velocity, 5% shield resist I can dream can't I?
Mesasone	Posted - 2005.12.09 07:35:00 - [83] An mwd bonus on the Enyo makes no sense. If you wanted to use blasters on the Enyo, you would have to have a web to keep the target from going anywhere, as most any other frigate would easily be able to out run it, and the Enyo would not be able to orbit with in blasters range with MWD on. If you pack a web, then the target will just be able to warp away since you only have two midslots, one taken up with the MWD and the other the statis webifier. Not to mention it gets a bonus to optimal and tracking, which both primarily benefit railguns as opposed to blasters. It seems silly to put a bonus on a ship that prevents it from functioning on its own. I understand that is a group game, I infact hate flying alone, its just not much fun. But a ship should be able to funciton solo, and excell in groups imho. MWD bonus on the Enyo does not support this. It would make more sense for the Ishkur to get a MWD bonus, as it has three midslots to MWD, web and scamble with. Not to mention it is a mean ship with blasters on it. I think that either an armor repair, tracking bonus or small hybrid damage bonus would be most appropriate for the Enyo. The Harpy gets a double optimal range bonus, so a tracking bonus seems kind of fitting for having the Enyo be the Gallente answer to the Harpy. The armor repair bonus would make the most sense, given the Enyo's description as being a good 'tank' for small fleets. The Ishkur could hold a variety of bonus. With the drone changes, the drone damage on the Ishkur is already getting a very significant increase, so that may not be the best bonus as far as balance goes. Except possibly if you could specify that the bonus apply to small drones, and create one where 5 light drones would do the same damage as 4 medium drones, that would be very nice. Or perhaps a significant drone HP bonus, say 15-20% (Ishtar and Domi get 10% to damage/HP, so a larger single bonus to HP would make sense). MWD bonus would be great as well, provided that the devs feel the 'optimal weapon' on the Ishkur is infact blasters, and they would like to encourage it's use in that fashion. And ofcourse, an armor repair bonus would be great.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.12 01:33:00 - [84] guess these ship aren't getting any love till after RMR. hopefully we will get a sticky thread for suggestion. _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship their Missing Bonus in RMR! <END TRANSMISSION>
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.12.12 02:19:00 - [85] Several ships are missing midslots. The Hawk, Vengence, and Cerberus just to name a few. The problem is that midslots have a tendency to be used for an overpowering amount of EW instead of a semi-decent balanced shield tank. Solution: Utility Midslots They can not be used for EW, only tanking, propulsion, etc. All the tanking midslots you need, no uberizing EW on ships not designed for it. Nyxus Plasmatique> "Cry 'Cartiff' and let slip the dogs of war!"
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.12 03:12:00 - [86] Cerberus has 15 slots just like all other HAC. The fact that it has less mid slots than you think it should is a different matter. The jaguar, ishkur, hawk, and vengeance have 10 slots when other AF have 11. Therefore, with the exception of the ishkur, which has a massive drone bay to compensate, it is quite logical to conclude that the other three are missing a slot. As for the fear that a 5 mid slot hawk could be used as a EW boat, well yeah, duh, of course it will be. What is wrong with that? Jammers and other forms of EW are very cap intensive in general - this is why the griffin's bonus was changed to less jammer cap and not jam range. If the driver wishes to use EW, instead of a shield tank, I think he's free to do so in my book. It would at least be nice if CCP would say what they think on the underpowered AF issue, so we could either find out how they plan to fix it, or could refute their poorly thought out arguements on why it's currently fine
O'knar	Posted - 2005.12.12 04:52:00 - [87] for real, hawk needs more launcher hps. a missile AF is essential for caldari.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.12.12 13:54:00 - [88] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 12/12/2005 13:54:41 Originally by: O'knar for real, hawk needs more launcher hps. a missile AF is essential for caldari. Yeah, a third (or even fourth) missile launcher and more missile-oriented bonuses would give the Hawk a role and make is special. At the moment, Harpy does everything it does, but better.
space fox	Posted - 2005.12.12 16:22:00 - [89] Edited by: space fox on 12/12/2005 16:22:35 Ishkur i see as a tank ship/sniper more than anyhtign else given light dorens speed and distance, maybe a amour/ab realted bounus? spelling mistakes
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.12 23:40:00 - [90] maybe weirda need to babysit this thread a little more... seem like the dev are on fire with their comment lately! so many good thing in RMR! just really hoping to see these ships get their needed bonus! _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship Missing Bonus in RMR! OMG Tux/Ouveur/TomB hate Weirda! EGO Nerfed!!!

Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2005.12.12 23:53:00 - [91] Yes Please for a AF mkII project. The poor Wolf needs CPU and PG to plug the gaping double hole in its armor (or a resist bonus). The Jag needs a mid. Yeah i know its been said allready - i just wanted to vote.
Red Horseman	Posted - 2005.12.13 00:13:00 - [92] Vengeance would benefit more from a midslot than a lowslot. Right now my low configuraton on my vengeance is rep/thermal passive hardener/heat sink (or cpr, depending on what mood im in). It could definitely benefit from another midslot, so you could fit ab/web/scramble/tracking disruptor or other gizmo. It would give the vengeance a niche and make at least one khanid ship not suck.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.13 00:32:00 - [93] If the vengeance got the 5% per resist per armor level, and a additional low slot, it could tank quite well. Three mids are enough to have a scrambler, speed module, and jammer/something else, especially on a armor tanked ship.
Damien Vox	Posted - 2005.12.13 00:33:00 - [94] As a specializing AF pilot I beg CCP to fix the AF's with a 4th bonus and please, please give the Jag and Wolf more grid/cpu.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.13 01:23:00 - [95] Edited by: Weirda on 13/12/2005 01:26:33 Originally by: Kai Lae If the vengeance got the 5% per resist per armor level, and a additional low slot, it could tank quite well. Three mids are enough to have a scrambler, speed module, and jammer/something else, especially on a armor tanked ship. If it got the resist bonus - it could armor tank extremely well without another low. as someone who (trys) to fly vengeance regularly... it could benefit WAY more from a mid. for the love of God! an armor tanking ship with some extra mids? hello! a few have seen the light. Originally by: Vox As a specializing AF pilot I beg CCP to fix the AF's with a 4th bonus and please, please give the Jag and Wolf more grid/cpu. Agree with the Jag - Wolf is way short on cpu too - but have done well with faction plates (they're cheap)... and am hoping with the new passive armor resist skills in RMR, the faction plate will be enough (training kin/ex first... for my wolf). TBH though - Weirda really like the Jag/Vengeance better then the Wolf/Retribution. That may change with the new passive skills (at least with the Wolf - that is the least of the Retri's problem)... _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship Missing Bonus in RMR! OMG Tux/Ouveur/TomB hate Weirda! EGO Nerfed!!!
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.13 02:30:00 - [96] Originally by: Weirda an armor tanking ship with some extra mids? hello! a few have seen the light. Only if it got a big cap boost. Otherwise I'd much rather have another low. In fact, I'd much rather have 4 lows than 4 mids anyway, but 4 mids would make it unique id guess... still good > unique and unique != good. Guess I havent quite completely seen the light yet... ------------- Where is the gistii a-type armor equivalent?
Walok	Posted - 2005.12.13 06:03:00 - [97] /signed for de-gimping of AFs (especially Amarr, come on) Quote: I kill people. (and make signatures for 10mil ISK, EVE-Mail me.)
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.12.13 06:11:00 - [98] the vengeance should have a 4th med because giving it another low or any sort of tanking bonus will make it WAY to much like the retrib. Med, dmg bonus, and mass reduction is what we need.
Liet Traep	Posted - 2005.12.13 11:28:00 - [99] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: LUKEC Since the day that i'm using enyo with mwd & blasters... i think jaguar & ACs should perform excellent as a heavy tackler... But i cannot fly them(although i know where to get em for almost 0isk)... Vengeance with current resists cannot be shieldtanked, so it doesn't really need medslots as 3 is enough. Another low and a bit pg, so it could fit med. beamsII, missile launcher and small repper... and it could actually be useful :) But in the end all AFs should get ~20% more hp and 20% more cap. the extra mid request on the vengeance is for more toys - not a shield tank... it would just really sadden weirda to see the vengeance get another low... with 3 lows for tanking - it is great with its current resists. it lacks cpu to fit it as currently, and grid to fit the beams that you should be fitting on it (since it only carry three). again... weirdas opinion flying them... that extra mid would really give it a role - the khanid can pretend that the mid is there for shield tanking, but we all know better... I fit my vengeance as a heavy tackler. 3 dual light beam 2's, small nos. mwd, webber, scrambler and some sort of tank in the lows. I fiddle with that bit. It's damage is so low though that I just use it in fleet ops as a tackler. It's tough enough to take a pounding from most inties. With a damage bonus it'd be a great all around ship. Best solution I can see for it is maybe give it another low slot for added tanking or damage mod. Still won't be as tough or hard hitting as a retribution but it'd give it a little more flexibility and make it more survivable and useful. Sort of like an eensy-weensy, baby apoc. But green.
Blackest Sheep	Posted - 2005.12.13 12:55:00 - [100] Originally by: Necrologic the vengeance should have a 4th med because giving it another low or any sort of tanking bonus will make it WAY to much like the retrib. Med, dmg bonus, and mass reduction is what we need. Yep. And the bonus to lasers, please.

Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.13 20:11:00 - [101] Originally by: Blackest Sheep Originally by: Necrologic the vengeance should have a 4th med because giving it another low or any sort of tanking bonus will make it WAY to much like the retrib. Med, dmg bonus, and mass reduction is what we need. Yep. And the bonus to lasers, please. still think resistance bonus would be ****, but either will do... as long as we get another mid on there... _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship Missing Bonus in RMR! OMG Tux/Ouveur/TomB hate Weirda! EGO Nerfed!!!
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.13 20:16:00 - [102] A vengeance with 4 mids and no dmg bonus will be just as **** as it is now. ------------- Where are the missile damage implants? ;)
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.13 21:28:00 - [103] Originally by: keepiru A vengeance with 4 mids and no dmg bonus will be just as ** as it is now. i like 4 mids on armor tanks because i like : ab(mwd)/web/scram/cap charger for pvp or ab/web/2xcap rechargers on npc Originally by:** "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2005.12.13 22:58:00 - [104] Keep the thread going! Can we get a dev reply?! I'll throw my bonuses in (many probably suggested before in this and other threads)... All: 20% reduction in mass Minmatar -Wolf: 5% damage changed to 10% -Jaguar: +1 midslot, +30 CPU, 5% velocity per level Gallente -Ishkur: 5% MWD cap bonus -Enyo: 7.5% rep bonus Caldari -Harpy: 5% tracking -Hawk: +1 mid, +2 launcher HPs, +20 CPU, 5% shield resist per level, optimal changed to missile velocity Amarr -Retribution: 5% armor resists per level -Vengeance: +1 mid, +10 grid and +20 CPU, 5% damage
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.14 00:28:00 - [105] Edited by: Kai Lae on 14/12/2005 00:30:30 On a different but related topic, what about looking at medium beams. The amount of grid to use these is ludicrous. I see these more on battleships for anti-frig defense than actually on frigates. This not being a really viable weapons choice is an indirect nerf to amarr AF. I still say low slot to the vengeance. If the bonuses were changed to replace optimal with 5% damage, and armor resists, I'd guess this would be a quite interesting setup: 3x Pulse II, 1x Rocket II Web, MWD II, scram 2x HS II, energized thermic membrane, SAR II I haven't checked to see if that would fit, so maybe you'd need a MAPC. At any rate I suspect it would be quite good. Edit: Also, if CCP actually listens to us (gasp!) these ships will need more CPU/grid (depending on what slot is added) to ensure that it can be filled.
Ante	Posted - 2005.12.14 03:56:00 - [106] For the Vengeance what about an increase in both grid + cpu, an extra mid and a 10% optimal range per level bonus? Would be nice if it could use 3x Medium Beam Laser IIs yes?
Blackest Sheep	Posted - 2005.12.14 09:06:00 - [107] Edited by: Blackest Sheep on 14/12/2005 09:07:34 Originally by: Ante For the Vengeance what about an increase in both grid + cpu, an extra mid and a 10% optimal range per level bonus? Would be nice if it could use 3x Medium Beam Laser IIs yes? Without a damage bonus it will still not deal a lot of damage. You mean raising the bonus to 20% overall, since it has 10% from the AF skill already? I fail to see why CCP did not do the armor resistances like those of HACs. AFs are the first step for many beginning players into the wonderful t2 world. Make this step more worthwhile, please. Keepiru, is there still space left in your sig?
Ante	Posted - 2005.12.14 11:39:00 - [108] Originally by: Blackest Sheep Without a damage bonus it will still not deal a lot of damage. You mean raising the bonus to 20% overall, since it has 10% from the AF skill already? I realise having two optimal range bonuses would still leave it lacking damage. However if it were able to mount 3 med beam IIs it would have an optimal range of ~15km with multifreq crystals. On second thought if you were to give the Vengeance a second optimal range bonus it might make more sense to give it a fouth low slot instead of a fourth mid. I was thinking it would be nice to give medium beam IIs a 5% rof bonus but you would either have to apply the bonus specifically to beam lasers or nerf the ship in some other aspect to accommodate the extra damage. Also I realise the devs are against rof bonuses for frigs but given the slow rof of beams it might be deemed ok.
Ghoest	Posted - 2005.12.14 14:36:00 - [109] Most of you just ask for too much. Hawks should have 2 more missle slots - mainly so we have at least 1 missle AF. The rest of the changes you want are balance changes and I think you want to much.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.14 14:39:00 - [110] No T2 ship has more than 4 bonuses. Hell AF only have 3 real ones. So that's a non starter. Frankly, IMO, CCP needs to look at the grid fitting for medium beams (as they said that they would). If that was done with a 4th low slot you could go with a MAPC, and likely fairly easily fit 3 of them. I however think that in general the "damage" AF work better as long range boats, and the "utility" (in general) work better as the short range type. That's why I'd investigate removing the optimal bonus totally and replacing it with damage, and then adding in 5% armor resists (mini sac, which tanks pretty well).

Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.14 14:41:00 - [111] Originally by: Ghoest The rest of the changes you want are balance changes and I think you want to much. Changing the missile slots is a balance change. On another note, could you care to explain why you don't think that AF are underpowered, especially with regards to the ships with only 11 slots, and therefore why they're fine as is.
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2005.12.14 14:43:00 - [112] Why would Ishkur get an MWD bonus? It's a drone ship and doesn't work that well with blasters (optimal bonus=for rails, falloff bonus=blasters). More drone range woudl eb far better for it. Uberkur FTW!
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.14 15:10:00 - [113] Originally by: Kai Lae Edited by: Kai Lae on 14/12/2005 00:30:30 On a different but related topic, what about looking at medium beams. The amount of grid to use these is ludicrous. I see these more on battleships for anti-frig defense than actually on frigates. This not being a really viable weapons choice is an indirect nerf to amarr AF. Considering that the 720mm howie is a better battleship gun than a cruiser/battlecruiser I don't sympathize. Infact, Beams might be small guns but they output like lowerend cruiser guns more than they do frigate guns. And they work well on cruisers. As it stands it is more balanced than you realized. Medium Beam Laser IIs are almost as good as Dual 180mm II autocannons and hit pretty much the same range point. Why do you think a lot of minmatar use them on ruptures and stabbers? An AF with a full rack of beams would just be plain sick DoT. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Mesasone	Posted - 2005.12.14 15:15:00 - [114] Edited by: Mesasone on 14/12/2005 15:15:45 Originally by: Jon Xylur Why would Ishkur get an MWD bonus? It's a drone ship and doesn't work that well with blasters (optimal bonus=for rails, falloff bonus=blasters). More drone range woudl eb far better for it. Uberkur FTW! Have you tried the Ishkur with blasters? It's amazing. Because it is a bit heavier and can not keep as close of an orbit as say an interceptor, the optimal bonus actually works quite well to keep it with in blaster range, although I would agree that a fall off bonus would give more effective range. I personally dont like sending my drones out 40km to the target, as one or more may perish en route - and its a ship that relies pretty heavily on it's drones. I like to keep my drones at my side, so I can scoop them up and warp out when things get hairy.
Jagaroth	Posted - 2005.12.14 15:17:00 - [115] Originally by: Alex Harumichi At the moment, Harpy does everything it does, but better. No. Hawk tanks better and looks cooler (blue-tint with hawk-wings design across the front). I'd object to the idea of changing it to a kestrel hull. I like the Merlin hull, but if you were going to change it then perhaps a blue-tint Hookbill with similar patterning would look just as good. 1 or 2 more missile hardpoints (NB not slots) would work if the bonus was reconfigured to match. I would prefer an extra mid slot to a high. The description says Lai Dai make balanced ships... well that's where the mid-slots come in and allow you to vary your configuration and do all sorts of interesting things. Or not - cos there's not enough of them. ------
TheMoog	Posted - 2005.12.14 16:33:00 - [116] Originally by: Phelan Lore Gallente -Ishkur: 5% MWD cap bonus -Enyo: 7.5% rep bonus I'd do very silly things to get those bonus on my Gallente AF. The MWD bonus on the Ishkur would be great, since the best role I found for it is an anti-ceptor AF: fast, drones and rails. The rep bonus on the Enyo would make me wet
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.14 17:22:00 - [117] Originally by: Kai Lae No T2 ship has more than 4 bonuses. Hell AF only have 3 real ones. So that's a non starter. Frankly, IMO, CCP needs to look at the grid fitting for medium beams (as they said that they would). If that was done with a 4th low slot you could go with a MAPC, and likely fairly easily fit 3 of them. I however think that in general the "damage" AF work better as long range boats, and the "utility" (in general) work better as the short range type. That's why I'd investigate removing the optimal bonus totally and replacing it with damage, and then adding in 5% armor resists (mini sac, which tanks pretty well). Well, Jaguar works better at long range and heavy tackler, due to range bonus and shield tank, and it does pitiful damage at close range anyway (as much as vengeance). There's not much to do to give it decent damage except turning it into wold, an additional med slots would give it a better shield tank / heavy tackling abilities at least. Wolf does decent damage with AC at close range, and with nerf on alpha strike, I don't see how 280 wolf could be better after RMR than with AC. Anyway, even with AC it lacks really some damage compared to a blaster harpy (200 DPS with 1 damage mod and max skills, 140 for AC wolf with 1 damage mod and max skills). (PS: by looking at cargo bay sizes, it's pretty clear that wolf is more supposed to use AC with high ammo consumption, and jag artys with lower ammo consumption (165 vs 130)). And jag definitely need some look at to its cap, it's the only AF that has the same cap than its T1 hull. Wolf is not that much better though. Jag, as well as vengeance and hawk, need another slot to be on par with the 11 slots AF and the ishkur with its 10 slots and massive drone bay. And all AFs need their 4th bonus in place of the fake bonus. Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...

CCP Hammer	Posted - 2005.12.14 19:25:00 - [118] Weirda no love Hammer?

xenorx	Posted - 2005.12.14 20:19:00 - [119] Originally by: CCP Hammer Weirda no love Hammer? We all love you Hammer. I would love you long time if you would change my Retributions to a 4/2/5 layout. Drop the useless utility high slot into a mid slot. Oh and before everyone starts screaming that it would be overpowered notice that I didnt ask for 40 more cpu. Although it would be nice.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.12.14 20:25:00 - [120] Originally by: CCP Hammer Weirda no love Hammer? stop trolling and fix the assault frigates Originally by: Testy McTest Artillery Extreme Ammo - fires typhoons that launch claws with autocannons that launch guys in space suits that have machine guns that fire ninjas

Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.14 20:43:00 - [121] Originally by: CCP Hammer Weirda no love Hammer? What is there to love? j/k teehee! buff the AF's and I think it won't just be Weirda's love you will be getting. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.14 20:44:00 - [122] Originally by: CCP Hammer Weirda no love Hammer? of course do! just "don't touch this" (unless fixing AFs)! you were left out because: a) there wasn't room in the thread title to include every DEV b) wanted to ***** at TomB and Tux only because you are so loved c) three is a crowd... d) too many ppl would start discussing MC Hammer's discology in thread if you name was in title take you pick - whatever make you feel best... just please give my AF's their proper 4th bonus and give my jag and vengeance a mid... and give the Hawk 2 more launcher points... and... and... and... you get the picture! _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship Missing Bonus in RMR! OMG Tux/Ouveur/TomB hate Weirda! EGO Nerfed!!!
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.14 20:50:00 - [123] Originally by: Weirda of course do! just "don't touch this" (unless fixing AFs)! ;o ------------- Where are the missile damage implants? ;)
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.12.14 20:53:00 - [124] Originally by: Grimpak Ishkur: drone damage (or drone hitpoints) Nah, it's already a drone powerhouse. I'd vote for a MWD bonus, or something like that. Originally by: Grimpak Enyo: the mwd bonus thingy or the repair bonus thingy. both are good ones. Repair, I'd say. Ishkur works much better as a MWD boat. Originally by: Grimpak hawk: this one could use a total revamping in the bonuses, making them all missile with a shield boosting one. Totally agreed. And 1-2 more missile hardpoints, making this the first (and only) missile-based AF. A lot of people would be very happy with that. Originally by: Grimpak Retribution: hmm... second damage bonus or a tracking bonus. I'd vote for tracking, but damage bonus would work also. And move the totally useless fifth highslot into a med. With a normal fitting, there is nothing you can fit in that highslot. Or alternatively, give it a bit more CPU so it could actually use that high. Right now it's affectively a 4/1/5 layout ship. Originally by: Grimpak Vengeance: damage bonus for sure. Yeah. This ship is ok otherwise, but the damage is pitiful. Ideally I'd give it one more medslot, too, so it could (gasp) shieldtank. That's what the stats seem to point it towards, but you don't shieldtank with only 3 mids and em+therm damage holes.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.14 21:40:00 - [125] Edited by: Grimpak on 14/12/2005 21:42:34 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Grimpak Ishkur: drone damage (or drone hitpoints) Nah, it's already a drone powerhouse. I'd vote for a MWD bonus, or something like that. Originally by: Grimpak Enyo: the mwd bonus thingy or the repair bonus thingy. both are good ones. Repair, I'd say. Ishkur works much better as a MWD boat. Originally by: Grimpak hawk: this one could use a total revamping in the bonuses, making them all missile with a shield boosting one. Totally agreed. And 1-2 more missile hardpoints, making this the first (and only) missile-based AF. A lot of people would be very happy with that. Originally by: Grimpak Retribution: hmm... second damage bonus or a tracking bonus. I'd vote for tracking, but damage bonus would work also. And move the totally useless fifth highslot into a med. With a normal fitting, there is nothing you can fit in that highslot. Or alternatively, give it a bit more CPU so it could actually use that high. Right now it's affectively a 4/1/5 layout ship. Originally by: Grimpak Vengeance: damage bonus for sure. Yeah. This ship is ok otherwise, but the damage is pitiful. Ideally I'd give it one more medslot, too, so it could (gasp) shieldtank. That's what the stats seem to point it towards, but you don't shieldtank with only 3 mids and em+therm damage holes. yeah but that was just the bonuses. slots however I agree with everyone said before: - bit more CPU and a med to the jag - bit more gird and cpu and med to the vengy - another med to the hawk ...however I had this insane idea on the back of my head for some time wich is to transform the retribution in a 5-turret ship. Simply make that utility slot into a turret slot. Add 5 more CPU and 6 more grid. Result: mobile turret platform. Imagine that thing with 5 beams. EDIT: and btw, the 4th med in the vengeance would not go for tanking that's for sure I can't even count the multitude of setups that the vengeance would be able to have if you armour tank the thing and you would have like 4 meds to play arround. ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.15 09:38:00 - [126] vengeance can do same with 3 med slots, just forget about propulsion mod
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.15 10:19:00 - [127] Edited by: Kai Lae on 15/12/2005 10:19:36 Originally by: Kaylana Syi Considering that the 720mm howie is a better battleship gun than a cruiser/battlecruiser I don't sympathize. Infact, Beams might be small guns but they output like lowerend cruiser guns more than they do frigate guns. And they work well on cruisers. As it stands it is more balanced than you realized. Medium Beam Laser IIs are almost as good as Dual 180mm II autocannons and hit pretty much the same range point. Why do you think a lot of minmatar use them on ruptures and stabbers? An AF with a full rack of beams would just be plain sick DoT. 1. 720 arty have nothing to do with beams so your point is irrevelant 2. A frig beam that can't be usually mounted on a frig is a weapon with very dubious capability. The grid needs to be reduced. If it does too much DPS/tracking/sheep shearing then that should be addressed at the same time. On a seperate issue though there are issues with a few frig weapons, small arty being one of them (especially 250's).
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.16 20:10:00 - [128] Originally by: LUKEC vengeance can do same with 3 med slots, just forget about propulsion mod weirda NEVER fit propulsion mod on AF (unless NPCing) so you don't have to ask to forget. there are certain things that would be a nice luxury with a 4th mid: - dual webber (very helpful considering the speed of this slug vs the speed of it intended targets) - tracking disruptor - remote dampener (to force inties to either flee or come into you webber range) - ecm anyhow - now that RMR is deployed, Weirda looking forward to the DEV posting a stickie on the updates to the Assault Ship! TomB or Tux would be cool... but Weirda really hoping that Hammer is the man for this one! <3 for hammer (the dev in the shadows)! _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship Missing Bonus in RMR! OMG Tux/Ouveur/TomB hate Weirda! EGO Nerfed!!!
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.12.16 20:22:00 - [129] "Weirda no love Hammer?" More likely using reverse psychology -- "If Weirda doesn't mention Hammer, he'll feel unloved and fix the AFs to show he is the best dev out there" ;o
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.12.17 06:49:00 - [130] Originally by: Kyozoku 4 missile slots. 5% missile rof, 5% missile dmg 10% missile velocity, 5% shield resist I can dream can't I? If it had the grid and cpu to fit some sort of tank/mods and 4 t2 launchers, I'd fly a hawk and probably never undock my harpy ever again. ------------------------------------ Inappropriate signature -zhuge

Kyozoku	Posted - 2005.12.17 11:41:00 - [131] Edited by: Kyozoku on 17/12/2005 11:42:19 If the vengeance had a 4th mid you could actually shield tank it and have room for a scrambler. The jag is around 30 cpu short of being a good ship. Giving the hawk 5 mids would change it's role from a tanker to an ew platform. Haven't decided if that a good thing yet. I can't really comment on the ishkur as it seems to be doing pretty well for itself atm. Bumpage till a real dev replys!
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.17 19:47:00 - [132] Originally by: Kyozoku Edited by: Kyozoku on 17/12/2005 11:42:19 If the vengeance had a 4th mid you could actually shield tank it and have room for a scrambler. The jag is around 30 cpu short of being a good ship. Giving the hawk 5 mids would change it's role from a tanker to an ew platform. Haven't decided if that a good thing yet. I can't really comment on the ishkur as it seems to be doing pretty well for itself atm. Bumpage till a real dev replys! Jag, if it gets a 4th mid, will need more than 30 CPU as it will then need more to fit the extra new slot. It's a true fact though that when I outfit this ship I have like 20 extra grid and no free CPU. It also needs more capacitor, as it has the same amount as the rifter. As for the hawk, having a ship that could either be used with missiles or outfit for jamming isn't a negative, that is a positive - ship flexibility is a great asset.
R31D	Posted - 2005.12.17 20:21:00 - [133] Jaguar and Vengeance both having an extra mid would be cool. Jaguar I don't really have fitting problems with (either ACs or Artillery) but it would need extra CPU for that 4th mid slot otherwise it'd be impossible to fit. Ishkur is fine imo, doesn't need any extra slots. I don't think AF need a 4th bonus as it could easily unbalance them with each other easily but a bonus slot to a couple of them would be very useful (especially seeing as Jaguar is just a Rifter with decent EM/therm resistances Free bumpage for all
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2005.12.17 20:30:00 - [134] Originally by: Kai Lae Jag, if it gets a 4th mid, will need more than 30 CPU as it will then need more to fit the extra new slot. It's a true fact though that when I outfit this ship I have like 20 extra grid and no free CPU. It also needs more capacitor, as it has the same amount as the rifter. More cap is a must. For a ship that is supposed shield tank, having the same cap as it's tech 1 base, having less cap than the wolf, which is supposed to just be a no nonsense damage machine, and even having less cap than a claw, is unnacceptable. 40 more cap (50 with energy man 5) would go a long way imo. ________________ ~Phelan Lore Your isk has become my isk, by way of my actions...
Endorphin Lai	Posted - 2005.12.18 21:15:00 - [135] Having read this entire topic... People who think the Vengeance needs another mid... IMO no. An armor tanker with the same amount of mids becomes unbalanced - should shield tanking ships request as many lows? IMO by the sounds of it it needs a damage bonus and maybe another low. As for the Hawk - I love this ship and it is a very successful NPCing ship, however i agree that the damage sucks. Perhaps add a hi-slot and another launcher point for 2 turrets/3 launchers? But then it becomes a more damage-oriented ship like the harpy, and this is not the idea of this ship. Instead, another low is better for a damage mod, and then it becomes more balanced, as the description states it should, and another launcher point so you have the option of 1 turret/3 launchers. Then you could have: 1x 150 rail 3x std launchers 1xAB 1xSB 1xEM Hardener 1xwebber/scrambler/etc 1xBCU 2xPDU Or something like this. Any suggestions?
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.18 21:39:00 - [136] The "10 slot" ships won't get another high slot. They're more tanking/utility based than the 11 slot, which are damage. Therefore it would make sense to enhance their strength of what they do well.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.18 22:28:00 - [137] Originally by: Kai Lae The "10 slot" ships won't get another high slot. They're more tanking/utility based than the 11 slot, which are damage. Therefore it would make sense to enhance their strength of what they do well. does that mean that CCP should enhance the hawk in being crappy? ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
keepiru	Posted - 2005.12.18 22:32:00 - [138] Originally by: Kai Lae The "10 slot" ships won't get another high slot. They're more tanking/utility based than the 11 slot, which are damage. Therefore it would make sense to enhance their strength of what they do well. Then why do so many 11 slot afs tank better than the 10-slots? For example, retribution/vengeance, enyo/ishkur... ------------- Please fix the EW stacking bug :(
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.18 22:46:00 - [139] Because CCP doesn't know what they're doing in this case? Actually when I think of it the ships that have less high I generally see as short range, and when you look at the harpy or wolf that seems borne out. The way you can match the DPS is to go with short range weapons. Not only that the ishkur, jag etc seem more suited to it (jag due to speed, I know the optimal bonus doesn't fit).
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.20 02:56:00 - [140] slight bump . Tux/TomB, any answer? Or you Hammer, as you already know the thread. If you look into this, I'm sure Weirda (and others) will really love you, and next thread title will be "<...> needs <...>, Hammer? <3<3" Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...

Gronsak	Posted - 2005.12.20 03:59:00 - [141] why do AF need a 4th bonous? they already have a smaller sig than t1 couterparts (unlike hacs which have higher in most cases) imo AF are fine. i have used caldari and galante intensively, both work good. are not over powered and DEFNITLY not underpowered other 2 races i cant say, but im sure they are ok too
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.12.20 04:30:00 - [142] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 20/12/2005 04:30:57 Originally by: Gronsak why do AF need a 4th bonous? Because they are lacking a 4th bonus, every t2 ship get 4 real bonuses, and AF only get a fake 4th bonus. Originally by: Gronsak they already have a smaller sig than t1 couterparts (unlike hacs which have higher in most cases) but they are slow and heavy (as fast as hacs with an ab, whereas t1 frigates can go way faster than t1 cruisers). Originally by: Gronsak imo AF are fine. i have used caldari and galante intensively, both work good. are not over powered and DEFNITLY not underpowered Ishkur, harpy are arguably the two best assault frigates. The ishkur for damage + slot layout, the harpy for range + ew. Enyo is a good t2 frigate, and hawk just... well, it's a pimped merlin - not that impressive. You can't juge them all on basis of those because jaguar isn't much more than a rifter (i think that the rifter is better than the jaguar). Vengeance is terrible. They need something really, they aren't really worth flying over their t1 counterpart (and that's not even considering their price). Originally by: Gronsak other 2 races i cant say, but im sure they are ok too I am sure you shouldn't be sure. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range. Check for updates/known issues, feedback welcome.
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa	Posted - 2005.12.20 13:56:00 - [143] Edited by: Shan''Talasha Mea''Questa on 20/12/2005 13:56:37 Why haven't the assault frigs inherited both T1 boni for their frigate V skill ? Edit: Spelling.
Uther Doull	Posted - 2005.12.20 14:05:00 - [144] Originally by: CCP Hammer Weirda no love Hammer? and here i was thinking "Yay, a dev post on the matter" :(
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.12.20 14:19:00 - [145] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 20/12/2005 14:23:53 Originally by: Naughty Boy Ishkur, harpy are arguably the two best assault frigates. The ishkur for damage + slot layout, the harpy for range + ew. Enyo is a good t2 frigate, and hawk just... well, it's a pimped merlin - not that impressive. You can't juge them all on basis of those because jaguar isn't much more than a rifter (i think that the rifter is better than the jaguar). Vengeance is terrible. They need something really, they aren't really worth flying over their t1 counterpart (and that's not even considering their price). Yeah. Ishkur, Enyo, Harpy, Wolf are all fine, all solid ships with different strengths. Jaguar is fast, but that's about it. Compared to the new boosted Rifter, it doesn't offer all that much. Could use a bit of help. Retribution is borderline ok. Gimped by only one medslot, but packs a mean if limited-range punch and tanks well. The biggest problem with this ship, tbh, is probably the fitting reqs of beam lasers, but it could use some other help too, perhaps a bit more grid & cpu. A second medslot would make this a very good ship, but maybe too good(?). Dunno. Vengeance is gimped by abysmally low damage output and nothing to make up for that. It has a nice shield, but resists and # of medslots don't encourage shield tanking. It could benefit from a damage bonus, and maybe something else. Hawk has a problem in that everything it does, the Harpy can do much better. It needs to lose the gunboat role (Harpy does that) and gain a more missile-based role. More launchers, another missile bonus. This would make it the first and only missile AF in the game, which many would love I'm pretty sure.
Forsch	Posted - 2005.12.20 14:33:00 - [146] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Hawk has a problem in that everything it does, the Harpy can do much better. It needs to lose the gunboat role (Harpy does that) and gain a more missile-based role. More launchers, another missile bonus. This would make it the first and only missile AF in the game, which many would love I'm pretty sure. Harpy <-> Hawk is the same problem like Crow <-> Raptor but from a different side. Harpy and Crow do everything their counterparts do but better. Hawk needs more missiles slots. Raptor needs more gun slots. (And maybe a look at the bonus of each.)
CardboardSword42	Posted - 2005.12.20 14:35:00 - [147] I'm throwing my support behind giving the Hawk more missile hardpoints and changing the rail bonus to a missile bonus. Fleshreaper Inc. Representative
Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2005.12.20 16:04:00 - [148] I wanted a new toy so bought a Hawk recently. That's a goofy ship to fit, making it a missile boat would be a great way to differentiate it from the Harpy, please do it CCP!
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.21 06:21:00 - [149] /me pets the thread, but it needs devs love! Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.21 16:36:00 - [150] must babysit thread some more... again... 4th bonus 4tw! _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship Missing Bonus in RMR! OMG Tux/Ouveur/TomB hate Weirda! EGO Nerfed!!!

FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.12.21 16:44:00 - [151] Anything that gives love to the Caldari, gets love from me. 23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.12.22 05:12:00 - [152] Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Edited by: Shan''Talasha Mea''Questa on 20/12/2005 13:56:37 Why haven't the assault frigs inherited both T1 boni for their frigate V skill ? Edit: Spelling. Good question. I want my shield resists boost to my Harpy. ------------------------------------ Inappropriate signature -zhuge
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.24 02:39:00 - [153] /me wakes up the thread, it should not die before a dev answers (and not out of topic of course ) Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.24 04:59:00 - [154] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Good question. I want my shield resists boost to my Harpy. I see this as more likely for the harpy, actually.
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2005.12.24 08:39:00 - [155] In addition to the fix/balance we might need a third AF per race. For Minmatar there is a cool little number called a Blade in the DB - it has a 5-4-5 slot layout.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.12.24 09:05:00 - [156] I'm sure, since that has 14 slots, and therefore more than a logistics cruiser. I wouldn't bet on getting that.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.24 10:04:00 - [157] Originally by: Zippy Pinno In addition to the fix/balance we might need a third AF per race. For Minmatar there is a cool little number called a Blade in the DB - it has a 5-4-5 slot layout. and 99% EM resist (or was it 100%?) ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Zarthanon	Posted - 2005.12.24 10:21:00 - [158] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Zippy Pinno In addition to the fix/balance we might need a third AF per race. For Minmatar there is a cool little number called a Blade in the DB - it has a 5-4-5 slot layout. and 99% EM resist (or was it 100%?) It was 100% resistances, fun ship to fly. Some BugHunter left one on the test server and I knicked it. Getting shot at by Radio Crystals was fun. Originally by: ParMizaN i mayv or may nit abe a bit drunk Originally by: Buddrow TO THETR DRUMNBS OF WAR WET GHO
Vex Seraphim	Posted - 2005.12.24 10:40:00 - [159] Edited by: Vex Seraphim on 24/12/2005 10:43:01 Edited by: Vex Seraphim on 24/12/2005 10:40:06 Yes please give Hawk two more missile hardpoints, throw away the gun hardpoints/rail bonuses, and add more missile bonuses, preferrably damage (please, not "kinetic only") <3
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.25 15:29:00 - [160] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: CCP Hammer Weirda no love Hammer? of course do! just "don't touch this" (unless fixing AFs)! Doh! Weirda says she loves you, and you don't come back in the thread? That's not nice for her Hammer (yes it was a shameless bump for the thread ) Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...

Kyozoku	Posted - 2005.12.25 17:21:00 - [161] Guess what I wanted for xmas.
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2005.12.25 17:42:00 - [162] AF's are supposed to be point defense ships. If they don't get their fourth bonus and boosts in PG/CPU for some, they are in danger of becoming obsolete once Interdictors become cheaper, say 6 months from now. I really think Tech 2 Destroyers should have kept their ROF penalty, with speed close to Interceptors and twice the firepower these things are going to be insane.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.12.25 18:52:00 - [163] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Zippy Pinno In addition to the fix/balance we might need a third AF per race. For Minmatar there is a cool little number called a Blade in the DB - it has a 5-4-5 slot layout. and 99% EM resist (or was it 100%?) 100% - those ships are classed as escort ships in the DB, and each race had their enemy's primary damage output resisted to 100% (i.e. amarr 100% exp resistance, caldari 100% thermal, gallente 100% kinetic, minmatar 100% em). ------------- Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP
Tha Tyger	Posted - 2005.12.25 19:03:00 - [164] lot of good idea's =) I won't start buggering people by telling my ideas, because I use dumb setups :P Anyways, I am somewhat disappointed that the only dev comment was as useless as a filthy sock =/ (yes hammer, your comment was pointless) I would like to know what the dev team thinks of these ideas and if there is some change planned for the AF (AS whatever you like to call em) (ps: give the Thorax some more drone space again =/ )
Longasc	Posted - 2005.12.27 02:47:00 - [165] I see no easy way to fix the Vengeance, it is neither armor tanker nor shield tanker. But the Retribution needs a 2nd Medslot. Heck, it is limited to PvE with only one. Please do not say people should simply use a Vengeance... it is better to train for other races AF's... :( Give the Retribution a 2nd Medslot, so that at least ONE Amarr AF can be a viable choice.
Kyguard	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:46:00 - [166] What the vengeance really needs is its shield reduced so it's not equal to its armor. Wtf was the person who designed it thinking? -- I don't represent my alliance God is on the side with the best artillery
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.28 16:19:00 - [167] now we to the point where someone is making a new post about something that is already in this thread every day. can we please get some word to the update? are AF going to be looked at? or are they 'just fine' with 3 bonuses? is the Jag 'just fine' with the same slot as MK2 Rifter? Hammer, while weirda appreciate you humor, it would be very nice to know that someone take the AF seriously! _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship need 4th Bonus + Jag and Vengeance Upgrades, make Hawk Missile AS!
Forsch	Posted - 2005.12.28 17:33:00 - [168] Originally by: Weirda is the Jag 'just fine' with the same slot as MK2 Rifter? I knew this would be brought up after all the love the rifter got. (Offtopic: The rifter was a well used frigate before RMR, now it's even better. Imo it's not the jaguar having too few slots, it's the rifter having too many. But that's just me. )
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.12.28 17:34:00 - [169] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Weirda is the Jag 'just fine' with the same slot as MK2 Rifter? I knew this would be brought up after all the love the rifter got. (Offtopic: The rifter was a well used frigate before RMR, now it's even better. Imo it's not the jaguar having too few slots, it's the rifter having too many. But that's just me. ) the jaguar is technically missing a slot though. ------------- Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.28 17:44:00 - [170] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Weirda is the Jag 'just fine' with the same slot as MK2 Rifter? I knew this would be brought up after all the love the rifter got. (Offtopic: The rifter was a well used frigate before RMR, now it's even better. Imo it's not the jaguar having too few slots, it's the rifter having too many. But that's just me. ) the jaguar is technically missing a slot though. yup - and so is the Vengeance, Hawk and Ishkur... but arguably the ishkur does not need the 11 slot that the others do. also consider that pre-rmr the punisher had 4/2/4 (10) and the rifter had 4/2/2 (8)... you really think that 1 extra hardpoint make up for 2 slot Forsche? but weirda digress, the issue at hand is the 'non-assault' assault frigs... not the mk2 update, which for the record weirda think Tux did a great job with! (the breacher could have used a bit more of ... something though) _____________ Thread Killer Give Assault Ship need 4th Bonus + Jag and Vengeance Upgrades, make Hawk Missile AS!

Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2006.01.02 22:17:00 - [171] Friendly bump. RMR has since been released making the lower tier AF's look even more useless.
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2006.01.03 11:31:00 - [172] bump It's sad that in order to make the 'lower tier' AFs competetive in their own niches you have to have about 15 skills at 5 and another 50-odd at 3... and a nice dose of luck. ----- Just because you couldn't get a ship to do what you wanted doesn't mean it's a crap ship - it means you're a crap pilot of that ship.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.01.03 11:51:00 - [173] Originally by: Ysolde Xen bump It's sad that in order to make the 'lower tier' AFs competetive in their own niches you have to have about 15 skills at 5 and another 50-odd at 3... and a nice dose of luck. if you say so anyhoo they still need to fix the bonii and the slot on lower tier AF. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Tha Tyger	Posted - 2006.01.03 12:05:00 - [174] Well still no usefull comments from devs / gm / whatever, I see =( This issue is quite urgent if you ask me, as frig sized ships are my favored ships in battle. I don't have to much troubles with the wolf myself, but when I get into the Jaguar I get the feeling that it's just and reinforced rifter (Rifter with some added shield =/). Same goes for the Ishkur. I love the drone space it has (would like to see it being increased with 5 m^3, but I can live without that), it's odd to get a nice setup on it, especially for PvP. sigh I do hope some devs or so will reply. This tread deserves it!!
elFarto	Posted - 2006.01.05 09:31:00 - [175] Edited by: elFarto on 05/01/2006 09:31:14 Yes please, replace the Retribution's fake resistance bonus with a proper +5% to all per lvl, taken from the Mk2 Punisher. Regards elFarto Stratego > 2005.10.22 14:15:17 combat Imperium Alliance petitions you, glancing off causing no real damage.
Uther Doull	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:00:00 - [176] so any1 care to explain why a jaguar has the exact same slot layout as the mk2 rifter and the wolf actually has 1 less mid slot? right now taking cost etc in consideration i see no reason why any one would fly a wolf much less a jaguar over a rifter....
Stephen HB	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:16:00 - [177] Originally by: Uther Doull so any1 care to explain why a jaguar has the exact same slot layout as the mk2 rifter and the wolf actually has 1 less mid slot? right now taking cost etc in consideration i see no reason why any one would fly a wolf much less a jaguar over a rifter.... The same reason I fly a Retribution instead of a Harpy. It's just cooler -- Originally by: Nyphur The irony is astounding. The sheer level of raw irony here is enough to iron my clothes for a year. EVE Tracking Guide
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:26:00 - [178] it is true - weirda think that this thread have had enough views/idea since inception to warrent serious look from dev. every day am waiting to see 'assault ship bonus overhaul' as a new stickied thread... but alas... AF are still great ship - and weirda never say that they aren't... they are gimped from other t2 ship though because of the bonus... and the slot count of 1/2 of them. had warned the RMR would magnify this problem even more and it has. here's to hoping - and surprise that this thread suddenly got a few more posts! __ Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:32:00 - [179] still signed assaults seem half finished. you made stealth bombers much better - a class of ship that hardly anyone uses - so why not the assaults? Turn interceptors into dedicated tacklers (screw the 50% damage, give them 50% scrambling + web range) and turn assaults into the proper combat ships like hacs are for cruisers. oh, and add the missing slots :)
Hippey	Posted - 2006.01.05 17:02:00 - [180] /signed inties > AF = f**ked up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you do nothing to stop slavery, you do everything to support it

Jarran Amordivino	Posted - 2006.01.05 17:33:00 - [181] bump
Garrick Amorr	Posted - 2006.01.05 19:19:00 - [182] Assaults do need some help. I'm flying a Retribution and I love it, but I wouldn't mind using the Vengeance, if it wasn't so outclassed by a ship in it's own class. Guess I really don't have any suggestions other than I agree with the +1 midslot theory and damage bonus instead of the crap it has now!
CardboardSword42	Posted - 2006.01.05 20:20:00 - [183] Edited by: CardboardSword42 on 05/01/2006 20:20:51 Originally by: Garrick Amorr Edited by: Garrick Amorr on 05/01/2006 19:32:26 Assaults do need some help. I'm flying a Retribution and I love it, but I wouldn't mind using the Vengeance, if it wasn't so outclassed by a ship in it's own class. Guess I really don't have any suggestions other than I agree with the +1 midslot theory and damage bonus instead of the crap it has now! And has anyone ever considered the idea of faction AF's? That would be great! I think we should worry about fixing the AFs we have now before worrying about introducing new ones. Though once we get that sorted out, I think faction AFs would be fun to have. The funny thing is that with the chokehold certain corps have on T2, a faction AF might be just as expensive as a normal AF Fleshreaper Inc. Representative
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.05 20:58:00 - [184] First, Faction AFs would be rare as hell and probably cost a fortune because nobody would sell them cheap, not to mention they'd flat out have crazy stats. Imagine if they'd re-balence faction ships for mk2, then boost them to t2 levels. We'd see people flying t2 worms with probably more shield than a Hawk, and damage as good as a Harpy. AFs do need fixed. As do inties. I peroanlly never understood why CCP felt the need to give so much damage to a ship class that is ment to be a good tackler(inties). They needto lose ALL damage-related bonuses, and get ones for tackling. Scram/webber range, webber strength (maybe 5% per level so at lvl 5 you'd get a 25% boost to your web power (thus a 50% web would become 62.5%, plus other web-related skills, and it'd probably have more range). For inties: Weapon range replaced by web/scram range(pick one, or both for 2 bonuses used up), damage for strength of web or something else (can't be scrams due to how they work, unless lvl 5 made a 2str into a 3, and a 1 stayed a 1 maybe). For AFs: Give us our 4th bonus, period. Hell for the Harpy and Hawk they could both be as simple as giving them their Merlin resists, and fixing slot layouts. There has never been a reason listed for the Hawk's setup to suck like it does, and CCP needs to give one, or fix it, both would be nice. Others can/have given ideas for the 4th bonus, Personally I'd love to see the Harpy be something like: Frigate skill: 5% to all resists, 10% to small turret range(or 5% to damage), per level. Assault skill: 5% to damage, 10% to small turret range, per level. All AFs would still have their current resist boost, since without it nobody would fly the damn things because they're like flying a brick. Hawk's layout really should be redone. Make it a kestrel model, give it 5/4/2, top slot layout would be 4 launchers, 0 turrets, meaning an accessory slot for nos or whatever. Bonuses would be(on top of existing bonuses maybe?): Frigate: 10% increase to missile flight time, 10% increase to missile/rocket velocity. Assault: 15% increase to damage from all missiles/rockets, 10% increase to launcher rate of fire. Yeah those bonuses I've suggested are probably way overkill on someone with AF and missile skills to V, but they can be tweaked for balance, altho the kestrel-hawk, like the Harpy, would probably be even more of a brick than it's t1 counterpart, so i think it'd be fair since you'd be in an AF that turns like a BS. In the end, I'd just settle right now for a dev to tell me why there seems to be a hidden requirement for some AFs to just completely suck.
Nybbas	Posted - 2006.01.05 22:53:00 - [185] yeah good one, give it a triple bonus to damage and a double bonus to rof...
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.01.06 00:33:00 - [186] hmmmmm caldari missile af, would b rlly nice. like merlin and kestrel, moa and caracal, eagle and cerberus.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.06 02:01:00 - [187] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists hmmmmm caldari missile af, would b rlly nice. like merlin and kestrel, moa and caracal, eagle and cerberus. raptor and crow... __ Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
solarwinds	Posted - 2006.01.06 05:18:00 - [188] In regards to the Hawk, I think giving it the ability to mount 3 launchers would make it a little more effective. With 5% light missile speed and 5% light missile damage bonuses. 4tw, 5% ROF and -25% to fitting requirements for assault launchers. If ixnay on the assaults, then give it a 4th launcher, 10% ROF bonus, and a shield boosting bonus or "real" resistance bonus. __________ Your wife's B!tch Slap strikes you perfectly, wrecking for a lifetime of pain and misery...
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.01.06 06:27:00 - [189] Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 06/01/2006 06:29:39 i love missiles, but even 4 standard launchers with a big tank would b over the top ;) edit: tho hitting frigs withs tandards would req a web, which would cripple a tank. 4 standard, possible but not easy, but no signature radius reduction for those missiles,
Agent Kenshin	Posted - 2006.01.06 07:43:00 - [190] I have to agree the AF need to be looked at. Its been a long time since i looked at any AF except my wolf and after i lost it i realized they just arent that great vs some of the other ships out there. Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers' ehehehh....

Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.01.06 19:37:00 - [191] I've run out of constructive things to say so just bump.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.06 19:42:00 - [192] Originally by: Nybbas yeah good one, give it a triple bonus to damage and a double bonus to rof... Sorry, ment to say in place of existing bonuses, not on top of(if you were talking to me). Btw, did you take that name from Tactics Ogre?
Longasc	Posted - 2006.01.06 19:44:00 - [193] Edited by: Longasc on 06/01/2006 19:45:51 As the Vengeance seems to be beyond hope, I offer a constructive idea regarding the Retribution: +1 Med Slot and it can be used for solo PvP. 1 Med Slot only restricts EVERY ship, not only the Retribution, greatly. Please have mercy with the poor little Retribution, give it a chance for ... Retribution!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.07 15:14:00 - [194] bump
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.07 15:35:00 - [195] Originally by: Longasc Edited by: Longasc on 06/01/2006 19:45:51 As the Vengeance seems to be beyond hope, I offer a constructive idea regarding the Retribution: +1 Med Slot and it can be used for solo PvP. 1 Med Slot only restricts EVERY ship, not only the Retribution, greatly. Please have mercy with the poor little Retribution, give it a chance for ... Retribution! as was joked before in the thread... Retribution Assault Ship Bonus: +.2 mid slot per level Assault Ship only at AS 5 would you get a 2nd mid! tbh though - there wouldn't be a point flying any other AS if that one had 2 mid though... __ Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Longasc	Posted - 2006.01.07 17:02:00 - [196] Yeah, highly possible that it would be just too good...
Kuolematon	Posted - 2006.01.07 19:21:00 - [197] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia AFs do need fixed. As do inties. I peroanlly never understood why CCP felt the need to give so much damage to a ship class that is ment to be a good tackler(inties). They needto lose ALL damage-related bonuses, and get ones for tackling. Scram/webber range, webber strength (maybe 5% per level so at lvl 5 you'd get a 25% boost to your web power (thus a 50% web would become 62.5%, plus other web-related skills, and it'd probably have more range). Hear hear!! QFT!!! Why CCP, why? Azuriel Talloth: If it ain't broke, change it so it mildly annoys the playerbase
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.07 19:27:00 - [198] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Malthros Zenobia AFs do need fixed. As do inties. I peroanlly never understood why CCP felt the need to give so much damage to a ship class that is ment to be a good tackler(inties). They needto lose ALL damage-related bonuses, and get ones for tackling. Scram/webber range, webber strength (maybe 5% per level so at lvl 5 you'd get a 25% boost to your web power (thus a 50% web would become 62.5%, plus other web-related skills, and it'd probably have more range). Hear hear!! QFT!!! Why CCP, why? not all frigates are tacklers. we have mining frigates, tackling frigates, combat frigates, ewar frigates, logistics frigates, just like cruisers. I agree that interceptors should do no more damage than their tech1 counterpart, and that they should be given tackling bonuses. Assault frigates on the otherhand ARE designed to be combat frigates.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.01.07 19:34:00 - [199] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 07/01/2006 19:38:12 They do not deal much more damage than their t1 counterpart, or at least not all. [Minmatar] Rifter: 3 turrets, 1 launcher, 25% turret damage; Claw: 3 turrets, 1 launcher, 50% turret damage. Stiletto: 2 turrets, 1 launcher, 25% turret damage; Difference: * AC t2 + rocket t2 rifter max damage: 88 dps. * AC t2 + rocket t2 claw max damage: 103 dps, or 16.8% more damage. * AC t2 + rocket t2 stiletto max damage: 63 dps, or 28% less damage. [Caldari] Kestrel: 4 launchers, 25/50% missile damage bonus (other/kinetic) Crow: 3 launchers, 1 turret, 50% missile damage bonus (kinetic only) raptor: 2 launchers, 2 turrets, 25% missile damage bonus (kinetic only) Difference: * rocket t2 kestrel: 84 dps. * rocket t2 + ion blaster t2 crow: 92 dps (thanks to the blaster ) or 9% extra damage. * rocket t2 + ion blaster t2 raptor: 106 dps (raptor 4tw ) or 27% damage bonus. [Gallente] Incursus: 3 turrets, 1 light drone: +25% damage bonus. Taranis: 3 turrets, 2 light drones: +50% damage bonus. Ares: 2 turrets, 2 launchers: +25% damage bonus. Difference: * ion blaster t2 + hobgoblin t2 incursus: 127 dps. * ion blaster t2 + hobgoblin t2 taranis: 168 dps, or 32.5% more damage. * ion blaster t2 + rocket t2 ares: 106 dps, or 16% less damage. [Amarr] Punisher: 3 turrets, no damage bonus. Crusader: 4 turrets, 25% damage bonus. Difference: * Medium pulse t2 punisher: 82 dps. * Medium pulse t2 crusader: 136 dps. * Dual light pulse t2 crusader: 117 dps, or 44% more damage. * rocket t2 + medium pulse t2 malediction: 119 dps. * rocket t2 + dual light pulse t2 malediction: 105 dps, or 29.5% more damage. Conclusions: * Every ship above can be tanked forever by a maller with 3 energized nano t2 + med rep t2 tank, except the incursus and taranis. Every ship above can be tanked forever by a maller with 3 hardeners t2 + med rep t2 tank, except the taranis. * Most interceptors deal only marginally more damage than their t1 counterpart, except taranis and crusader, and most interceptors deal less damage than the incursus. They deal slightly more damage than t1 frigates. Original thread where this was posted: Link. They shouldn't all lose all their damage bonuses, that wouldn't make sense. Or else, how are you going to intercept normal frigates? You'll need to tackle the frigate, then bring someone else to kill it, while having trouble tanking it? No way. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. ---
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.07 19:44:00 - [200] Originally by: Naughty Boy [Caldari] Kestrel: 4 launchers, 25/50% missile damage bonus (other/kinetic) Crow: 3 launchers, 1 turret, 50% missile damage bonus (kinetic only) raptor: 2 launchers, 2 turrets, 25% missile damage bonus (kinetic only) Difference: * rocket t2 kestrel: 84 dps. * rocket t2 + ion blaster t2 crow: 92 dps (thanks to the blaster ) or 9% extra damage. * rocket t2 + ion blaster t2 raptor: 106 dps (raptor 4tw ) or 27% damage bonus. Hey, Kestrels arent the t1 counterpart off the Crow and Raptor, but nice try.

Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.07 20:00:00 - [201] Originally by: Naughty Boy [Minmatar] Rifter: 3 turrets, 1 launcher, 25% turret damage; Claw: 3 turrets, 1 launcher, 50% turret damage. Stiletto: 2 turrets, 1 launcher, 25% turret damage; Difference: * AC t2 + rocket t2 rifter max damage: 88 dps. * AC t2 + rocket t2 claw max damage: 103 dps, or 16.8% more damage. * AC t2 + rocket t2 stiletto max damage: 63 dps, or 28% less damage. Well, the T1 counterpart of intys is not the "assault" frigate (eg. rifter, etc.). For minmatar, it's slasher. Anyway, thing is we now have intys, whose main job is to intercept and tackle, that deal more damage than AFs, whose job is combat... Rifter: 3 turrets, 1 launcher, 25% turret damage; Jaguar: 3 turrets, 1 launcher, 25% turret damage; * AC t2 + rocket t2 rifter max damage: 88 dps. * AC t2 + rocket t2 jaguar max damage: 88 dps. * AC t2 + rocket t2 claw max damage: 103 dps, or 16.8% more damage. Originally by: Oveur I am not interested in "the lottery sucks" or "more tech 2 blueprints" since that is pretty much stating the obvious
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.01.07 20:12:00 - [202] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 07/01/2006 20:14:15 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Hey, Kestrels arent the t1 counterpart off the Crow and Raptor, but nice try. How so? They might not share the same hulls, but i'm not sure that their apparence on the screen was the key factor in the comparison? I was under the impression that taranis was an upgrade of the incursus, that claw was an upgrade of the rifter, and the crow was an upgrade of the kestrel. Anyway, disregard this if you want, the point I was trying to make is that if you remove all the damage bonuses then only the ships with the most weapon hardpoints and the ability to fit the most damaging weapons without bonus would just do about as much damage as they do now. In short, it wouldn't hurt most ships as much as the claw, for instance. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. ---
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.01.07 20:17:00 - [203] Originally by: Trelennen Anyway, thing is we now have intys, whose main job is to intercept and tackle, that deal more damage than AFs, whose job is combat... Yeah, and if you give the claw the same damage bonus as the rifter, the jaguar still doesn't deal more damage than the rifter or the claw... Which hint that the jaguar is lacking, if anything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. ---
Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.08 17:54:00 - [204] Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Trelennen Anyway, thing is we now have intys, whose main job is to intercept and tackle, that deal more damage than AFs, whose job is combat... Yeah, and if you give the claw the same damage bonus as the rifter, the jaguar still doesn't deal more damage than the rifter or the claw... Which hint that the jaguar is lacking, if anything. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. At least you would not have the more damaging minnie interceptor (job is intercept) doing more damage than the less damaging minnie AF (job is to fight), but yeah, that's quite obvious the jaguar is lacking a lot. After 7 pages, still no real post by a dev? Fix Stealth Bombers descriptions - AS need 4 bonus + Jag, Vengeance, Hawk as Missile AS? Tux/Hammer/TomB!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.09 21:46:00 - [205] And while you're at it, introduce passive multi-resist shield hardeners (same stats as energised adaptive nanos, but they boost shield resists) Jaguar 150mm AC II x 3 Small Dim Nos x 1 Gistii a-type MWD x 1 Gistii a-type Booster x 1 Faint -2 scrambler x 1 Shield Multi Resist thingy x 1 Gyro II x 2 Co-Pro II x 1 81.25% EM, 70% EXP, 55% KIN, 70% THEM, 9.6pg, 4cpu Go on CCP, you know you want to...
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.10 00:22:00 - [206] And more cap, and more CPU...frankly I'd trade CPU for grid...
Kristanna	Posted - 2006.01.10 09:07:00 - [207] As a pilot that specializes in frigs, by all means I can agree with all of the sugested ideas, esp for the Jag, I like my 'duct tape' ships
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.13 16:07:00 - [208] bumping again, because we're never going to let you forget about this until it's done :)
keepiru	Posted - 2006.01.13 16:18:00 - [209] Originally by: Sarmaul bumping again, because we're never going to let you forget about this until it's done :) gawdammn right ------------- Please fix the EW stacking bug, it's a disgrace!
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.13 16:21:00 - [210] Edited by: Weirda on 13/01/2006 16:21:32 Originally by: Sarmaul bumping again, because we're never going to let you forget about this until it's done :) bless you my child, you have seen the light. also, hammer... about you and you 1 visit to this thread: weirda is upset because you made the ammo the way it should have been, and then took it back. there - either fix that, or fix this and you will be absolve. otherwise, Tuxford is the new benefactor of the Minmatar race for what he did for the rifter. now - fix these damn AF... __ Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!

Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.13 16:34:00 - [211] Originally by: Weirda Edited by: Weirda on 13/01/2006 16:21:32 Originally by: Sarmaul bumping again, because we're never going to let you forget about this until it's done :) bless you my child, you have seen the light. no, I've seen the evil things I can do with a jag + 4th midslot that I can't do with a wolf. on the other hands, the jag still wouldn't be able to do the things the wolf can, i.e. load up with 280mms and 2-volley everything
Aba Tor	Posted - 2006.01.13 16:40:00 - [212] WE NEED A MISSILE AF!!!! (no the hawk is not one....but could be with more missile slots)...oh an no "u got one it's called the manticore"... every race has a sb.. The gals have a drone af why can't the caldari have a missile af? I for one don't like guns..yukky yukky guns..iiiic...but love the smell of rocket fuel in the EVEning
Bbllaarrgg	Posted - 2006.01.13 17:24:00 - [213] Edited by: Bbllaarrgg on 13/01/2006 17:24:28 I fanally bothered training up amarr frig 5 so i could check out their t2 frigs. So i can fly all AF's now, some are ok, some of em are just a joke with a special mention for the vengeance. I think i spent a good 20mins laughing at the vengeance, in fact, just thinking about the ship starts me giggling, i mean wtf? they all need those poxy resistance bonuses taken away, and possibly bring then more in line with the t1 variants of the ship that got changed with the mark2 project. I cant help thinking the punisher gets a better bonus than either of the amarr AF's. Oh and the rifter does more damage than the jag... i like the gallente ones tho _________________________ Insert fnord here.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.01.13 18:39:00 - [214] Originally by: Weirda otherwise, Tuxford is the new benefactor of the Minmatar race for what he did for the rifter. <bevis n' butthead> heheheheheheehehe... you said... benefactor... yeah yeah! </bevis n' butthead> /free and deserving bump Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.13 23:16:00 - [215] Edited by: Trelennen on 13/01/2006 23:17:06 Originally by: Bbllaarrgg Oh and the rifter does more damage than the jag... Not more, exactly the same. At closer range with artys though. The "funny" thing, is that jaguar description says it's a versatile ship, but it has same slots layout than the rifter, minus a launcher hardpoint I've been quite astonished looking at AFs bonus when I saw that none of them had a dual damage bonus. Then I understood why wolf + ACs + 1 gyro = 140 DPS while harpy with blaster + 1 MFS = 200 DPS, with much better tank , Jag having the prize for being the lowest damagin AF, dealing less damage than the claw, which is an inty edit: all put a link in your sig to support this thread! It worked for named large blasters and named 800 plate, maybe it'll work again for our AFs! ===== !!! Fix SB - Love for AFs - Fix drones AI !!!
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2006.01.15 23:11:00 - [216] CCP, the Jaguar is a Rifter with slightly better base resists, which gets negated by its slower base speed and agility. (Less transversal = more damage) Boost the Jaguar. You know you want to.
CardboardSword42	Posted - 2006.01.16 01:43:00 - [217] This thread doesn't deserve to be on the second page. Come on CCP, the Hawk needs more love. And what better love is there than more missiles and a bonus to missiles. Fleshreaper Inc. Representative
Ante	Posted - 2006.01.16 03:48:00 - [218] Vengeance does OK with a small energy neutraliser because of it's cap bonus. Chuck two cap power relays on with a small rep II, tracking disruptor + guns tends to do ok.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.16 05:10:00 - [219] The day the Devs realize the Hawk being called a 'missile' AF makes as much sense as inties with damage and not tackling bonuses, will be a good day. Anyone who says we have the manticore needs to kill themself for not knowing the difference between an AF and SB. Seriously, get it together CCP. At the very least the Harpy and Hawk should have the Merlin resists added to theirs, and the hawk should be a 2/3(or 4) layout with pg/cpu changes to compensate. Kali needs some Mk2 changes to t2 items at the very least. AFs need reworked, and inties sure as hell shouldn't have damage bonuses unless you plan to give a tackler bonus to some AFs. I'm sure I could find a use for some +web power/range, or scram range. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.16 20:17:00 - [220] bumpety bump. come tux, we'll even forgive you touching the thorax

Garrick Amorr	Posted - 2006.01.16 22:26:00 - [221] Bump! This isn't going to go away! Closing your eyes and Lalalalaing is gonna work ;)
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.16 22:27:00 - [222] Originally by: Garrick Amorr Bump! This isn't going to go away! Closing your eyes and Lalalalaing is gonna work ;) ISN'T
Shin Ra	Posted - 2006.01.16 22:31:00 - [223] Give the Jaguar a speed bonus. Give the vengeance a nos bonus. Good to go.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.16 22:34:00 - [224] Originally by: Shin Ra Give the Jaguar a speed bonus. Give the vengeance a nos bonus. Good to go. and give the jaguar it's missing slot (preferably in the mid).
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2006.01.16 22:41:00 - [225] Jaguar should be the assault frig version of the vagabond. Extra mid, more CPU, and a speed bonus perhaps. It needs more cap too, if you fit it with a MWD it can't even make it across a lot of 0.0 systems. Give the wolf a double damage bonus like the tempest, rupture, claw, munnin, vagabond. ________________ ~Phelan Lore Your isk has become my isk, by way of my actions...
Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.16 23:03:00 - [226] Originally by: Phelan Lore Jaguar should be the assault frig version of the vagabond. Extra mid, more CPU, and a speed bonus perhaps. It needs more cap too, if you fit it with a MWD it can't even make it across a lot of 0.0 systems. Give the wolf a double damage bonus like the tempest, rupture, claw, munnin, vagabond. I guess rather than the speed bonus, the jag would need to do more damage. It currently doesn't do more damage than the rifter (same amount of turrets, one damage bonus like the rifter), and is outdamaged by the claw! Considering that with the speed it already has, it'd be better off being a close range ship, the range bonus could be changed to an other 5% damage bonus (not rof, AC chew already fast enough through ammo), and let the wolf be the arty plateform, with double damage bonus like pest, rupture, etc. I've been quite surprised that neither wolf nor jag have double damage bonus, while proj are more or less balanced with 2 damage bonus to be on par with hybrids with one and lasers with none ===== !!! Fix SB - Love for AFs - Fix drones AI !!!
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.16 23:57:00 - [227] Originally by: Phelan Lore Jaguar should be the assault frig version of the vagabond. Extra mid, more CPU, and a speed bonus perhaps. It needs more cap too, if you fit it with a MWD it can't even make it across a lot of 0.0 systems. Give the wolf a double damage bonus like the tempest, rupture, claw, munnin, vagabond. Tracking. More damage is useless if you can't hit the target.
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2006.01.17 00:23:00 - [228] Originally by: Kai Lae Tracking. More damage is useless if you can't hit the target. Given the choice of 4 bonuses for a Jaguar i'd go for Falloff/Damage/RoF/Speed. Its not like you want to go uber close with autocannons anyway, they're not blasters. Keep your distance and they track just fine.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.17 00:49:00 - [229] Originally by: Trelennen I guess rather than the speed bonus, the jag would need to do more damage. It currently doesn't do more damage than the rifter (same amount of turrets, one damage bonus like the rifter), and is outdamaged by the claw! Considering that with the speed it already has, it'd be better off being a close range ship, the range bonus could be changed to an other 5% damage bonus (not rof, AC chew already fast enough through ammo), and let the wolf be the arty plateform, with double damage bonus like pest, rupture, etc. I've been quite surprised that neither wolf nor jag have double damage bonus, while proj are more or less balanced with 2 damage bonus to be on par with hybrids with one and lasers with none Jaguar needs: 4 Mid slots More cap (same as rifter currently) More CPU. Not more to fit something in that 4th mid slot, but more beyond this. Frankly I'd trade grid for more CPU, I never use it all anyway. Replace optimal range bonus with falloff range bonus Add 5% speed per level. Result - Mini vagabond. Enjoy all. Difference is vaga has 5% ROF bonus and the proposed jag has 5% tracking, considering that the Jag is a faster ship trying to engage other faster ships I'd keep the tracking. As for damage and "it does the same as the rifter" this ship isn't the damage dealing one of the minnie AF pair, that's a wolf. However, the real problem with damage is the lack of CPU. Autos/Rockets/shield tank + gyros is a no go, you don't have enough CPU. If the CPU was increased it would be possible to mount some damage mods and then you'd have something going. In general, I'm thinking that each AF should be a smaller version of the HAC in that family, except where it makes no sense because the HAC itself needs a change. I've kind of changed my mind a little bit here: Harpy: 5% shield resist per level Hawk: +1 mid, +2 launcher hardpoint, -2 turret hardpoint, 5% missile damage per level, replace turret optimal range and shield boost amount with 10% bonus to missile velocity per level and 10% light and rocket missile flight time (don't really like this one, but rockets could be an interesting option here). Wolf: Add 5% ROF to small projectiles, replace 5% falloff with 5% tracking. Retribution: 5% small energy turret ROF per level, -1 high slot, +1 mid slot. Vengeance: 5% armor resist per level, 10% danage per level (need testing on that might be too much), +1 low slot. While you're at it try the sac out with +10% med energy turret damage instead of optimal range as well. As for the gallente AF not sure what to do with these however. Ishkur becomes overpowered by trading the useless optimal range bonus for drone damage, and the drone control range bonus is not useful very much either. Side issues that relate to these ships: 1. Speed, most are slower than there base ships and there seems to be no reason. 2. Medium Beam laser grid. Takes WAY too much grid. If the gun does too much damage/has too good tracking, adjust these and reduce the grid requirements to something sane. 3. Small arty, with regards to size of the ammo magazine and 250mm ROF. Since the patch the magazine size is too small for both 280mm/250mm and the 250mm (and 650mm, and 1200mm) have always been poor weapons, since they do smaller damage and the ROF difference is not enough to compensate for the ease in fitting them when compared to the damage loss. Look at increasing the ROF of these weapons somewhat to compensate.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.17 01:50:00 - [230] good posts - keep them coming! we need to grow the fire! one quote from Dylan come to mind over the Assault Ships: "The Pumps don't work cuz the Vandals took the Handles!" Hammer... fix these ship! you know you want to!! __ Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!

Shin Ra	Posted - 2006.01.17 01:51:00 - [231] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Shin Ra Give the Jaguar a speed bonus. Give the vengeance a nos bonus. Good to go. and give the jaguar it's missing slot (preferably in the mid). not really necessary.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.17 02:53:00 - [232] Some forum mod should sticky this. It's quite important and we really need CCP to address this. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.17 04:43:00 - [233] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Some forum mod should sticky this. It's quite important and we really need CCP to address this. that would be the day... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Antic	Posted - 2006.01.17 04:58:00 - [234] guess someone got to notice the issue someday. perhaps when the thread reaches 30 pages? :/
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.17 05:03:00 - [235] Originally by: Antic guess someone got to notice the issue someday. perhaps when the thread reaches 30 pages? :/ aye - and no one really whining either. this is one of the longest 'asking for a boost' thread where there isn't a bunch of 'stfu adapt' stuff... that is a true sign that it is something that is universally wrong. (weirda thinking one of the next three post will be 'stfu adapt') __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.01.17 07:22:00 - [236] I can only show my support for the af's by posting . false bonuses got to go... personally I think the weapons on af's could use more bonuses to make em more... well assaulty, as in good damage but not so able to keep the target around, while inty's should be the ones holding the targets down but lacking in damage or so. Just a thought, sucks lollypop ... just a thought. ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.17 10:24:00 - [237] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 17/01/2006 10:24:21 Alright, lets play a game, we'll call it "if you could 'fix' the AFs". Post your ideal, balanced (as far as you know) version of AFs you'd like to see fixed. As for me... Hawk Model type is changed from a Merlin to a Kestrel base, and the mass/shields/hull/hold..etc would change with it (naturally). Slot layout would be 4/4/3, CPU/grid would be slightly boosted because CCP hates to see launchers fit. Bonuses: Caldari Frigate skill: 10% missile/rocket velocity, 15%* increase to kinetic missile damage per level Assault Ship skill: 5% bonus to launcher rate of fire, 5%** increase to misile/rocket damage per level. keep in mind this is just a 5% boost from Kestrels normal damage. Could replace with a flat 10% to all dmg types and make us all happy people. * would be for all types, not just kinetic. could bump it up to 10% and drop the frig skill's 15% to 10% to make it a 10/10 bonus instead of 15/5. Either way you'd have the same kinetic damage, one way would make all types slightly better. Harpy Drop the fake resistance bonus and give us the Merlin 5% to all resists per level bonus and I'd be happy. Or a 5% rof bonus to small hybrids. Really any bonus that would make sense would be nice. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.17 10:46:00 - [238] Jaguar Resistances not considered a bonus but part of the ships design (like hacs, command ships, etc). More CPU Higher base speed An extra midslot to give it the correct number of slots Minmatar Frigate bonus changed to 5% ROF and 5% tracking per level (i.e. same as the rifter) Assault Ships bonus changed to 5% damage and 10% falloff per level
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.01.17 12:51:00 - [239] Originally by: Sarmaul Jaguar Resistances not considered a bonus but part of the ships design (like hacs, command ships, etc). More CPU Higher base speed An extra midslot to give it the correct number of slots Minmatar Frigate bonus changed to 5% ROF and 5% tracking per level (i.e. same as the rifter) Assault Ships bonus changed to 5% damage and 10% falloff per level /signed Wolf More grid (+10 - no other 'tier 2' AF has any problems fitting whatever it wants) Minmatar Frigate bonus changed to 5% damage and 5% rof per level ( Min ships with no double bonus are generally gimped) Assault ships bonus unchanged Harpy +1 missile hardpoint, -1 launcher hardpoint (doesnt need 4 missile slots, no other 'tier 1' AF gets to fit 4 of its main gun) Caldari Frigate bonus changed to 5% missile RoF and 5% flight time Assault Ships bonus changed to 5% kinetic damage and 5% shield boost per level Testy's Eve Blog
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.17 13:13:00 - [240] Originally by: Testy Mctest Harpy +1 missile hardpoint, -1 turret hardpoint (doesnt need 4 missile slots, no other 'tier 1' AF gets to fit 4 of its main gun) 4 launchers would be nice tbh. I still think that the jaguar should be proficient in both long and short range, and the hawk needs another slot (5th med) PS: corrected launcher for turret =P ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.

Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.01.17 13:28:00 - [241] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Testy Mctest Harpy +1 missile hardpoint, -1 turret hardpoint (doesnt need 4 missile slots, no other 'tier 1' AF gets to fit 4 of its main gun) 4 launchers would be nice tbh. I still think that the jaguar should be proficient in both long and short range, and the hawk needs another slot (5th med) PS: corrected launcher for turret =P I'd like 4 launchers too, but I think it would be too powerful. Testy's Eve Blog
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.01.17 13:36:00 - [242] Originally by: Testy Mctest Harpy +1 missile hardpoint, -1 launcher hardpoint (doesnt need 4 missile slots, no other 'tier 1' AF gets to fit 4 of its main gun) Caldari Frigate bonus changed to 5% missile RoF and 5% flight time Assault Ships bonus changed to 5% kinetic damage and 5% shield boost per level You mean "Hawk". Harpy's the very well accomplished turret sniper with 4 turrets and 1 launcher. Oh, and it'd not get +5% flight time, it'd get +10% ;) Also, for consistency, the Assault Ship boni would most probably read Assault Ship skill bonus: +10% Light Missile and Rocket velocity and 5% bonus to shield boost amount per level You see, all Assault Frigates have one thing in common - a range bonus based on Assault Ship skill. Although, granted, it'd make more sense spreading the damage boni out on the different skills than dump it all on the hull set (which comes predefined at level 5) The stylii-domain is down. Use http://mc.kladdpapper.com/forum/ to access MC's forums.
BlueOrca	Posted - 2006.01.17 13:42:00 - [243] Yes, please give the green, three-horned, with lots of minions, devil another med slot, mini-Ishtar 4TW! Every AF must have 11 slots in total, and a real bonus, not a bogus! :)
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.01.17 13:45:00 - [244] Originally by: BlueOrca Yes, please give the green, three-horned, with lots of minions, devil another med slot, mini-Ishtar 4TW! Every AF must have 11 slots in total, and a real bonus, not a bogus! :) It's actually traditional for drone (and EW) ships to be one slot short compared to their peers. The Scorp and the Dominix are the only battleships with less than 19 slots, for example. The stylii-domain is down. Use http://mc.kladdpapper.com/forum/ to access MC's forums.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.01.17 13:51:00 - [245] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 17/01/2006 13:51:45 Originally by: Ithildin You mean "Hawk". Harpy's the very well accomplished turret sniper with 4 turrets and 1 launcher. You'd think that after spending 95% of my frigate time in a Harpy, I'd not make typos like that. Or maybe thats why i made the typo :) Quote: Oh, and it'd not get +5% flight time, it'd get +10% ;) Doesnt have to be 10%. Im wary of all bonuses to missile use, since missile are pretty much the best weapon in the game as is. Quote: Also, for consistency, the Assault Ship boni would most probably read Assault Ship skill bonus: +10% Light Missile and Rocket velocity and 5% bonus to shield boost amount per level Semantic, and I wasnt posting how it would be written. Quote: You see, all Assault Frigates have one thing in common - a range bonus based on Assault Ship skill. Although, granted, it'd make more sense spreading the damage boni out on the different skills than dump it all on the hull set (which comes predefined at level 5) Thanks for clearing that up for me, I never realised that. [/sarcasm]. For ships to start having double bonuses, it makes more sense to spread them out. Plus, I dont see it written anywere that "lo, all AFs shall hath an AF skill based range bonus". But sure, put RoF/dmg on Frigate, and range/SB on AF skill. It really makes little difference. Testy's Eve Blog
BlueOrca	Posted - 2006.01.17 13:52:00 - [246] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: BlueOrca Yes, please give the green, three-horned, with lots of minions, devil another med slot, mini-Ishtar 4TW! Every AF must have 11 slots in total, and a real bonus, not a bogus! :) It's actually traditional for drone (and EW) ships to be one slot short compared to their peers. The Scorp and the Dominix are the only battleships with less than 19 slots, for example. Yes but Ishtar has 15 slots like all the HACs, and to leave the Ishkur with only 10 is not right.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.17 13:56:00 - [247] Originally by: BlueOrca Yes, please give the green, three-horned, with lots of minions, devil another med slot, mini-Ishtar 4TW! Every AF must have 11 slots in total, and a real bonus, not a bogus! :) ..actually I would give it another low. ..but that's me ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Miss Awful	Posted - 2006.01.17 14:01:00 - [248] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Hawk Model type is changed from a Merlin to a Kestrel base, and the mass/shields/hull/hold..etc would change with it (naturally). Slot layout would be 4/4/3, CPU/grid would be slightly boosted because CCP hates to see launchers fit. For every race the AFs are based on one t1 model. Dont think they should change it for the hawk. Caldari already have one t2 kestrel, the manticore. Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Bonuses: Caldari Frigate skill: 10% missile/rocket velocity, 15%* increase to kinetic missile damage per level Assault Ship skill: 5% bonus to launcher rate of fire, 5%** increase to misile/rocket damage per level. keep in mind this is just a 5% boost from Kestrels normal damage. Could replace with a flat 10% to all dmg types and make us all happy people. Youre wrong there. The kessi only gets 10% damage bonus on kinetic (even less for the other missile types) while you are suggesting a 15% + 5% + 5% bonus for the hawk. I think thats really too much love! I like the tanking bonus the hawk has at the moment, lets trade one of the damage bonus for tanking and reduce that 15% kinetic damage to 10%. Another option would be a precision bonus, as well. Originally by:* Malthros Zenobia Harpy Drop the fake resistance bonus and give us the Merlin 5% to all resists per level bonus and I'd be happy. Or a 5% rof bonus to small hybrids. Really any bonus that would make sense would be nice. Oh no, dont touch my harpy. The harpy is a very very good af at the moment and really doesnt need any further boost or change.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.17 14:20:00 - [249] how many ******* times THE MANTICORE IS NOT A T2 KESSIE
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.01.17 14:35:00 - [250] Originally by: Testy Mctest For ships to start having double bonuses, it makes more sense to spread them out. Plus, I dont see it written anywere that "lo, all AFs shall hath an AF skill based range bonus". But sure, put RoF/dmg on Frigate, and range/SB on AF skill. It really makes little difference. I fear you might have read emotions and emphasis I never intended into my post at slightly the wrong places. Regardless, what I meant was that while it is not written that all assaults must have a range bonus on Assault Ship skill (by the way, I wasn't going for semantics, I was going for bonus placement - my bad, sorry), you will notice that precisely all Assault Ships have a +10% turret optimal range bonus as first listed bonus on Assault Ship skill. This makes me think that the range bonus is one of the fundamental intentions the devs had when designing the Assaults. This is regardless of how we'd rather have it, where I personally think that some ships are better off with more appropriate boni (Jaguar for example should have a more Autocannon-like bonus). The stylii-domain is down. Use http://mc.kladdpapper.com/forum/ to access MC's forums.

Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.01.17 15:24:00 - [251] Originally by: Ithildin I fear you might have read emotions and emphasis I never intended into my post at slightly the wrong places. (by the way, I wasn't going for semantics, I was going for bonus placement - my bad, sorry) Apologies - I'm not called Testy for nothing, I spose :) Testy's Eve Blog
Miss Awful	Posted - 2006.01.17 16:17:00 - [252] Edited by: Miss Awful on 17/01/2006 16:18:50 Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 17/01/2006 14:31:37 how many ******* times THE MANTICORE IS NOT A "T2 KESSIE" Then id suggest you taking a look at this ship. Ive been talking about the MODEL. If the model of a manticore doesnt look much like a kestrel (with some minor changes ofc), well ... Reading and understanding a context takes more skill than writing stupid comments with font size 6, doesnt it?
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.17 16:54:00 - [253] Originally by: Miss Awful Edited by: Miss Awful on 17/01/2006 16:29:02 Originally by: Sarmaul how many ******* times THE MANTICORE IS NOT A "T2 KESSIE" Then id suggest you taking a look at this ship. Ive been talking about the MODEL. If the model of a manticore doesnt look much like a kestrel (with some minor changes ofc), well ... Reading and understanding a context takes more skill than writing stupid comments with font size 6, doesnt it? I never said that a manticore would be a replacement for a missile af. sorry, it wasn't aimed at you (I didn't actually see your post above so I can see the confusion), but to the people in this thread who don't want a hawk to be a missile ship because they think manticore is a t2 kessie, thereby implying that the manticore is a missile-based assault frigate with full assault resists and bonusus, which it is not.
Hexlander	Posted - 2006.01.17 18:35:00 - [254] Edited by: Hexlander on 17/01/2006 18:37:21 <bump> RAMMING SPEED!!! </bump> *+1 med for Vengeance plz! I BEG YOU!* Crap tank.. and it's damage. Then it needs more EW power! It's an AF ffs.. --=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-- Power corrupts. Absolute power, corrupts absolutely!(\_/) 00B (0.0) License to kill (r <) Banging the Universe 1 by 1 "OH... BUNNY!"
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.17 18:41:00 - [255] Originally by: Testy Mctest Wolf More grid (+10 - no other 'tier 2' AF has any problems fitting whatever it wants) Riiight... Get a Harpy, now go fit 4 t2 150s a t2 launcher, and get back to me one what else you can stuff in there, k? Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2006.01.17 18:58:00 - [256] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Testy Mctest Wolf More grid (+10 - no other 'tier 2' AF has any problems fitting whatever it wants) Riiight... Get a Harpy, now go fit 4 t2 150s a t2 launcher, and get back to me one what else you can stuff in there, k? See thats the problem with you Caldari folk. You have 125mm Railguns, that are actually worth fitting. Excellent DPS to PG/TF ratio. Minmatar have the 250mm Howitzer. Its a joke. The only time I fit 250mm's on anything is when I've run out of other options, i'd rather fly a Wolf with 4 small smartbombs. Which leaves us with the 280mm as our only option.. still inferior in DPS than your 125mm Railgun, and impossible to fit.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.17 20:06:00 - [257] Originally by: Weirda aye - and no one really whining either. this is one of the longest 'asking for a boost' thread where there isn't a bunch of 'stfu adapt' stuff... that is a true sign that it is something that is universally wrong. apparently weirda speak too soon... anyhow... what this thread IS about: - giving all Assault Ship the missing bonus that deserve. the precident for assault resist bonus have been set by every other class of t2 assault ships (it inherant, not frig level based) - giving the 10 slot ship their missing slot (with the possible exception of the ishkur which arguably does not need it) - updating the Hawk to be (the only) missile assault frigate. whether that mean 3 launcher slot or 4 is really up to the DEV to work out there are many page of positive suggestion to all of the above. definately more then enough for the DEV to work with and start a thread of their own. and weirda thank you ALL for that! what this thread is NOT about: - changing ship hulls - whether or not projectile are underpowered vs rails (unless it is to do with requesting/requiring a double damage bonus as the new one) - just do a search for posts made by Testy if you need a fix of that... - insulting others suggestions - arguing semantics - upgrades to wolf/enyo/harpy/retribution (other then the addition of their 4th bonus) if we want to have DEV take our request seriously and pay attention to this thread, we must keep it from devolving or drifting off course, or they will have no reason to keep up on it. please fellow pilots - post to the issue that the thread is intended, or start another one. thank you very much for all the good ideas! let's keep this alive! __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.18 00:08:00 - [258] Edited by: Trelennen on 18/01/2006 00:10:01 Originally by: Sarmaul Jaguar Resistances not considered a bonus but part of the ships design (like hacs, command ships, etc). More CPU Higher base speed An extra midslot to give it the correct number of slots Minmatar Frigate bonus changed to 5% ROF and 5% tracking per level (i.e. same as the rifter) Assault Ships bonus changed to 5% damage and 10% falloff per level QFT. Damage bonus from frig instead of ROF would be better though (and arguably better for server lag ), as AC already chew through ammo like hell. Higher base speed maybe too much though, it's already by far the fastest AF, and have better base speed than the rifter (much less with AB 'cause heavier, but I don't think an AF should be faster than its T1 counterpart). And making it too fast would really make it a heavy tackler, and i don't thing AFs should become tacklers, that's what intys are made for. The missing midslot is definitely something needed too. Edit: and as usual, like Weirda said, we shall keep this thread clean, with no whines, no insult to other suggestions, and oriented towards fixing the AFs by giving them their 4th bonus, and tweaking jag, vengeance and hawk that are really in need. ===== !!! Fix SB - Love for AFs - Fix drones AI !!!
Latex Mistress	Posted - 2006.01.18 01:36:00 - [259] I'd make a vote to give move the Retri dump-o-slot to a useful mid, but Istvaan has played that game to it's inevitable conclusions with the same results I fear this thread will get. Sorry Weirda, they just don't care.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.18 03:15:00 - [260] Originally by: Trelennen QFT. Damage bonus from frig instead of ROF would be better though (and arguably better for server lag ), as AC already chew through ammo like hell. Higher base speed maybe too much though, it's already by far the fastest AF, and have better base speed than the rifter (much less with AB 'cause heavier, but I don't think an AF should be faster than its T1 counterpart). And making it too fast would really make it a heavy tackler, and i don't thing AFs should become tacklers, that's what intys are made for. The missing midslot is definitely something needed too. Edit: and as usual, like Weirda said, we shall keep this thread clean, with no whines, no insult to other suggestions, and oriented towards fixing the AFs by giving them their 4th bonus, and tweaking jag, vengeance and hawk that are really in need. It's already being used as a heavy tackler. This is about the one thing it can do with some effectiveness currently - sometimes the ability to take some hits and not get blown away as a inty would is pretty useful. As for it being too fast, I don't think so. I work out the max base speed of this ship to be in the 500m/s range, and yes this is interceptor range - however, it doesn't have the sig radius reduction. Possibly you could be correct but at least I'd like to get it out and test it first. If it is too fast then a reduction in base speed could be worked out so that it wouldn't be overpowered. However, with regards to all non minmatar AF, they need their base speeds boosted. Currently they're too slow, and in some cases go significantly slower than their T1 counterparts. The speed in fact is much closer to a cruiser than a frigate. Base speed for an AF should be at least in the 250-260 range, not 230 as some have.

Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.18 03:36:00 - [261] Originally by: Kai Lae [It's already being used as a heavy tackler. This is about the one thing it can do with some effectiveness currently - sometimes the ability to take some hits and not get blown away as a inty would is pretty useful. Yeah I know that, it's just I don't think it was designed for this, nor that it should be the role of an AF (and even less the only role a particular AF can perform well...). As for speed, it would not makes more sense to me if the jag was faster than the rifter with an AB, so if speed increase, it shall not be much (I'd love it if it was faster than a rifter, as it's one of the ships I currently fly along with rupture and cyclone, and because i love speed, but I don't think it should). ===== !!! Fix SB - Love for AFs - Fix drones AI !!!
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.18 06:02:00 - [262] Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild See thats the problem with you Caldari folk. You have 125mm Railguns, that are actually worth fitting. Excellent DPS to PG/TF ratio. Yeah, 125s are great. Hovering around the range of named med nos when using AM rocks, being inside large NOS range is even better. Or you can go with 150s, have 18-19km optimal with sharpshooter&AS at 4, 20+ with both at 5, and sit over 20km out popping things with AM. I still need to train up the +falloff skill though, but with 18km optimal I was chasing a cruiser 25km away landing excellents, so you factor in a lvl 4 falloff skill, and some more range from AS and/or sharpshooter, and you're looking at an easy 25-30km range for AM, and those 250+dmg wrecking hits to hull can hurt with that 3sec (or lower) rate of fire. I tried 125s awhile back. I'd probably drop a mag stab for a PDU to fit a launcher before downgrading my guns for one. Alittle extra DPS isn't worth sitting inside the range of a NOS. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Antic	Posted - 2006.01.18 07:06:00 - [263] Edited by: Antic on 18/01/2006 07:06:29 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild See thats the problem with you Caldari folk. You have 125mm Railguns, that are actually worth fitting. Excellent DPS to PG/TF ratio. Yeah, 125s are great. Hovering around the range of named med nos when using AM rocks, being inside large NOS range is even better. Or you can go with 150s, have 18-19km optimal with sharpshooter&AS at 4, 20+ with both at 5, and sit over 20km out popping things with AM. I still need to train up the +falloff skill though, but with 18km optimal I was chasing a cruiser 25km away landing excellents, so you factor in a lvl 4 falloff skill, and some more range from AS and/or sharpshooter, and you're looking at an easy 25-30km range for AM, and those 250+dmg wrecking hits to hull can hurt with that 3sec (or lower) rate of fire. I tried 125s awhile back. I'd probably drop a mag stab for a PDU to fit a launcher before downgrading my guns for one. Alittle extra DPS isn't worth sitting inside the range of a NOS. My experiences with pvp and 125 mms vs 150mms are the same. Its not worth the extra tracking and fitting for 125mms to be inside nos range. 150mms with a tracking enhancer and a web can do wonders at ¦ranges 22+ with lvl 5 SS and AS and AM ammo. Unforutnately most setups for harpys with these dont allow for a scrambler if you want a tank too. So group PVP is really what its good at. Also fitting is really tight on the CPU side. The web is there naturaly for when intys try to fly in under your guns.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.18 16:41:00 - [264] OMG IT FELL OFF THE PAGE
AlexCA	Posted - 2006.01.18 23:16:00 - [265] agreed, need a fourth bonus, also the retribution could do with a high slot swapped to mid slot. ============================== Oveur is my alt.
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.01.19 00:37:00 - [266] With much anticipation i logged in tonight. Feverishly opened "My Ships", with quivering mouse pointer i activated the dusty Jaguar there. Nervously i opened the ship setup page and lo ... The damn Jaguar still only has 3 mid slots. When are they going to read and implement this thread? I might have to consider civil disobedience if it doesn't happen soon. PS i also checked my not-so-dusty Wolf - still need a damn MAPC if i want to fit artillery.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.19 02:40:00 - [267] Originally by: Zippy Pinno PS i also checked my not-so-dusty Wolf - still need a damn MAPC if i want to fit artillery. drop the ab and you won't great story though - that is how weirda feel every day... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.01.19 03:43:00 - [268] Me thinks they will do something about this problem when they address the typhoon. However, they got bigger beans to fry... as the nodes are dropping left and right. I would like to fly my jag one day soon tho... Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Stephen HB	Posted - 2006.01.19 08:35:00 - [269] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Me thinks they will do something about this problem when they address the typhoon. I.e. never. -- Originally by: Nyphur The irony is astounding. The sheer level of raw irony here is enough to iron my clothes for a year. EVE Tracking Guide
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.19 10:32:00 - [270] Originally by: Stephen HB Originally by: Kaylana Syi Me thinks they will do something about this problem when they address the typhoon. I.e. never. the phoon is getting a makeover, we have dev quotes to back it up :). optimal range bonus is becoming a missile bonus.

Forsch	Posted - 2006.01.19 10:38:00 - [271] Originally by: Sarmaul the phoon is getting a makeover, we have dev quotes to back it up :). optimal range bonus is becoming a missile bonus. Which makes it a nice ship for all caldari pilots and anyone else who knows missiles but not projectiles.
Miss Awful	Posted - 2006.01.19 14:10:00 - [272] Edited by: Miss Awful on 19/01/2006 14:10:37 Originally by: AlexCA agreed, need a fourth bonus, also the retribution could do with a high slot swapped to mid slot. A retribution with another med slot would throw anything out of ballance. You can make suggestions for the vengeance which really needs some improvements. Anyway, i'd really like to see the jaguar, vengeance and hawk to get some love but im not so sure about the 4th bonus for all afs. In my opionion the enyo, ishkur, harpy and retribution perform quite well. They are great at killing ceptors, t1 frigs, destroyers and even most cruisers. Ive also seen bcs getting shot by single afs.
Sean Drake	Posted - 2006.01.19 15:29:00 - [273] CCP plz fix the 2nd rate AF'S Or Change the name of the hawk to The Dodo And the jaguar to The Tabby because then at least we could get a laugh out of them and the names would be better suited
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2006.01.19 16:33:00 - [274] Important thread shall not be allowed to die till we get an response. Even if it is just to say half the af's are meant to suck
Antic	Posted - 2006.01.19 18:01:00 - [275] maybe they are just avoiding the thread on purpose because they know how much it annoys us? :P
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.19 22:06:00 - [276] Originally by: Sean Drake CCP plz fix the 2nd rate AF'S Or Change the name of the hawk to The Dodo And the jaguar to The Tabby because then at least we could get a laugh out of them and the names would be better suited Rename the Hawk to the Swallow, because of how much it sucks. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Tensa	Posted - 2006.01.19 22:19:00 - [277] Hey let's not forget about the ishkur! It's one of the "2nd rate AF's" even though everyone says it's one of the better AF's... I would just like an added bonus of +10% to drone dmg, hp, and mining per lvl of af skill or something along those lines...
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.01.19 23:37:00 - [278] Originally by: Tensa Hey let's not forget about the ishkur! It's one of the "2nd rate AF's" even though everyone says it's one of the better AF's... I would just like an added bonus of +10% to drone dmg, hp, and mining per lvl of af skill or something along those lines... More likely it'll get an MWD or AB related bonus or something similar "extraneously Gallentish". Don't count on that beast getting any damage boni, and there's a few of the AFs who shouldn't in addition to the Ishkur. The stylii-domain is down. Use http://mc.kladdpapper.com/forum/ to access MC's forums.
slip66	Posted - 2006.01.20 00:03:00 - [279] Originally by: Miss Awful Edited by: Miss Awful on 19/01/2006 14:10:37 Originally by: AlexCA agreed, need a fourth bonus, also the retribution could do with a high slot swapped to mid slot. A retribution with another med slot would throw anything out of ballance. You can make suggestions for the vengeance which really needs some improvements. id give up the none gun high slot for a mid. Even a low slot really
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.20 02:19:00 - [280] Originally by: Tensa Hey let's not forget about the ishkur! It's one of the "2nd rate AF's" even though everyone says it's one of the better AF's... I would just like an added bonus of +10% to drone dmg, hp, and mining per lvl of af skill or something along those lines... You'd see those things costing 100mil minutes after that change would get announced. 10% more dmg for drones per level would make that thing insanely strong. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.

Antic	Posted - 2006.01.20 06:44:00 - [281] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Tensa Hey let's not forget about the ishkur! It's one of the "2nd rate AF's" even though everyone says it's one of the better AF's... I would just like an added bonus of +10% to drone dmg, hp, and mining per lvl of af skill or something along those lines... You'd see those things costing 100mil minutes after that change would get announced. 10% more dmg for drones per level would make that thing insanely strong. Also due to the ease of training frig lvl 5 for any race, it would become the only AF worth flying. And thats introducing inbalance, not balance.
BlueOrca	Posted - 2006.01.20 08:21:00 - [282] Edited by: BlueOrca on 20/01/2006 08:21:59 PLS no drone bonus to my "Green Devil of DOOM"! Now I must wait 12 days to buy one at NAGA, I don't want to wait until next year to get one!(Ishtar anyone?) The Thorax/Deimos bonus to MWD penalty is a good replacement.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2006.01.20 10:45:00 - [283] ooopppsss wrong button
Garrick Amorr	Posted - 2006.01.20 20:41:00 - [284] I love AF's, but apparently the devs dont :( Not letting this go!!
Frank Dashwood	Posted - 2006.01.20 21:18:00 - [285] Take your places Can we fix it? Yes we can Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder (Yes we can) Scoot, muck and Dizzy And Roly too Lofty and Wendy Join the crew Bob and the gang have so much fun Working together They get the job done Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder (Yes we can) Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder (Yes we can) Time to get busy Such a lot to do Building and fixing 'Til it's good as new Bob and the gang They can really be found Working all day 'Til the sun goes down Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder (Yes we can) Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder (Yes we can) Wow! Oh dear, Can you fix it? Right, left a bit, right a little Okay, break down We can tackle any situation Look out 'cause here we come Can we dig it? Yes Can we build it? Yes Can we fix it? Yes Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder (Yes we can) Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder (Yes we can) Digging and fixing Having so much fun Working together They get the job done Can we dig it? Yes Can we build it? Yes Can we fix it? Yes Bob the Builder Bob the Builder All together now Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob! Fantastic! Yes, Yes, we can Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder Bob the Builder (Can we fix it?) Bob the Builder (Yes we can) We'd better get some work done /me gets coat Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Welcome to eve, where 80% of the population hides behind a wall of smack while deceiving themselves into thinking they hold the moral/ethical high ground.
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2006.01.21 01:13:00 - [286] Yanked back to first page. CPU, PG & Mid slot on Jaguar please :-) A little bit of Cap wouldn't go amiss either. ----- Just because you couldn't get a ship to do what you wanted doesn't mean it's a crap ship - it means you're a crap pilot of that ship.
Wolverine PL	Posted - 2006.01.21 01:19:00 - [287] And why I dont see here Enyo or Ishkur?? They need love aswell. If you boost Hawk and rest, you need to close look at those gallente af aswell. Ishkur need more pg/cpu/cap.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.21 04:38:00 - [288] Ishkur has a huge drone bay to compensate for it's missing slot. The only question therefore is what it's missing bonus should be therefore. As for the enyo, again, bonus questions. If you follow the HAC template you'd say that the ishkur would get drone damage and hitpoints and the enyo MWD, but the ishkur would likely become very overpowered with that bonus and the enyo frankly doesn't seem to fit an MWD bonus. So far there's no real consensus, other than they need the missing bonuses that they should have.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.21 06:44:00 - [289] Originally by: Wolverine PL And why I dont see here Enyo or Ishkur?? They need love aswell. If you boost Hawk and rest, you need to close look at those gallente af aswell. Ishkur need more pg/cpu/cap. Iskhur needs a boost about as much as the Raven needs the Manticore's explosion sig bonus. They're damn scary with drone skills trained. Any bonus it'd get would need to be minor. Someone said give drone bonus dmg, but that'd be like giving the Harpy another 5% per lvl bonus to turret dmg. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Tarri	Posted - 2006.01.21 13:43:00 - [290] Perhaps give the Enyo a armor rep bonus like the brutix and the ishkur a drone range bonus. The jaguar should get a fourth med slot and the hardpoint layout changed to 4 turrets/2 missile bays. It's fourth bonus could be a speed bonus perhaps. The wolf would get as fourth bonus a tracking bonus and it's optimal bonus changed to rof or damage bonus. Don't know about the caldari and amarr ones, but a hawk transformed into a tech 2 kestrel would be a really frightening ship.

Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.21 14:10:00 - [291] Originally by: Wolverine PL And why I dont see here Enyo or Ishkur?? They need love aswell. If you boost Hawk and rest, you need to close look at those gallente af aswell. Ishkur need more pg/cpu/cap. and then ishkur would become the new OMGWTFBBQ'ing frigate. ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.01.21 14:17:00 - [292] I think weirda hurt hammer's feelings so much he told told the other devs not read this thread.
Akiman	Posted - 2006.01.21 14:32:00 - [293] yeah yeah ccp make caldariships's high slots aaalll missiles and make our 1 or 2 slots full of **** and remove turret points no caldari wants to use them anyway...
Antic	Posted - 2006.01.21 14:49:00 - [294] Originally by: Akiman yeah yeah ccp make caldariships's high slots aaalll missiles and make our 1 or 2 slots full of **** and remove turret points no caldari wants to use them anyway... only the hawk for missiles. Its nice to have some choise for ships to go for turrets with the harpy. Same as we got the eagle and cerb for HACs. You forget that many caldari have both missles AND turrets trained high. Untill the tier 3 turret battleship is added for caldari theres no point to get spec for tech 2 large rails for caldari spec people, and that saves a lot of training time. getting medium rail spec is pretty straightforward. And for launchers you dont need to progress through sizes to get spec. So no do not kill diversity, just eliminate the useless mixed bonus ships. Make hawk fully a missile AF and leave the harpy as a turret AF. gives people a choise.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.21 19:51:00 - [295] second page? I DON'T THINK SO
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.22 07:07:00 - [296] Again, some mod sticky this. Then maybe it'll emphasis that this is important to us. Don't make the AF community spam *** with tons of threads like drone users had to do. Originally by:** Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.22 21:39:00 - [297] There's something else that I've noticed. I've never found a wolf setup that I've liked that used artillery - not even a 250mm one - so I kind of gave up in fustration. I always run out of CPU. I looked back into it and noticed (re-noticed, actually) that the reason why is that true is that the wolf has only 125 CPU, which matches the retribution for lowest among AF. It makes sense for the amarr ship to have the low CPU in a design sense - highest PG, lowest CPU, but in the case of the wolf I'm hard pressed to say why. Currently, if you attempt to put a tank on your ship (I know most experienced wolf pilots are now laughing) and even mount 250mm, you're going to have trouble. Not even a setup that uses 4 250mm II, ab, web, 2 energized plates II, SAR II and gyro II will fit - and this is basically (with appropriate items) my fav enyo setup which fits pretty easily (except I can mount a launcher on the enyo, also easily). In short the Wolf could use some more CPU love IMO, I think between 15 and 20. This would at least let you put a tank on it with artillery, which would be nice.
Xasz	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:13:00 - [298] 10 pages, and 1 (fairly useless) dev reply. Kinda like the fake bonuses.
Sean Drake	Posted - 2006.01.23 14:03:00 - [299] yay AF's get a mention in tux's sticky
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.23 22:05:00 - [300] recap: vengeance: +1 mid +35 cpu new bonus 5% resist to all per level of frigate jaguar: +1 mid +30 cpu new bonus shield boost %/shield boost cap %/dmg/don't care hawk: +2 missile hard point, -2 turret hardpoint +1 low (might need something to make setup work) +20 cpu new bonus to missile rof or dmg the hawk attempt here is half assed - there are better discussion within the thread... weirda just want to fly a missile af... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!

Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.01.23 22:56:00 - [301] For the Jaguar bonus: How about a 5% reduction in MWD cap penalty? We should make a few unique ships - its getting a little cookie cutterish with all these "roles".
Mitram	Posted - 2006.01.23 23:04:00 - [302] Well, I haven't read the whole thread but I find it strange that there are still people around who want to boost frigates. I find it quite wrong that intercepter/AF can solo 2 bs + 1 officer spawns so easily. Ok, they need like 6 minutes for a spawn but how could a solo frigate kill a BS even if it is a stupid npc? Frigates are way overpowered right now. I hope the game designer rethink the continues boost of frigate class ships.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.23 23:11:00 - [303] Originally by: Mitram Well, I haven't read the whole thread but I find it strange that there are still people around who want to boost frigates. I find it quite wrong that intercepter/AF can solo 2 bs + 1 officer spawns so easily. Ok, they need like 6 minutes for a spawn but how could a solo frigate kill a BS even if it is a stupid npc? Frigates are way overpowered right now. I hope the game designer rethink the continues boost of frigate class ships. you missed the point of the thread. there is very little about these recommendation that would make the ships stronger toward bs and especially npc. as for the bolded part - that have a lot more to do with npc ai then anything else. not really sure how this is relevant either... maybe you should make a post about it. seem like grey group been trolling a lot of thread lately without making any constructive post of their own... would seem like the easy way out... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.23 23:18:00 - [304] Edited by: Kai Lae on 23/01/2006 23:18:32 Originally by: Weirda recap: vengeance: +1 mid +35 cpu new bonus 5% resist to all per level of frigate Low slot. Adding a armor tank bonus and then adding a mid slot so that you can't add more armor tanking mods, or damage mods for a ship that has low damage to start with, makes no sense. You also forgot to replace the 10% optimal range bonus with a 5% small energy turret per level as well. I'm not sure if you need that much CPU, the number would have to be tested (in fact I'm pretty sure that's too much). In addition, anyone notice that this ship has less capacitor than a punisher? Therefore, +40 cap to bring it up to the T1 standard. In fact this is a common theme where the T2 ship has less cap than the T1 - at a minimum it should have the same cap. Originally by: Weirda jaguar: +1 mid +30 cpu new bonus shield boost %/shield boost cap %/dmg/don't care Suggested additional bonus is velocity bonus, in addition replace optimal range bonus with falloff bonus. Base speed may or may not have to be reduced because of this change. The amount of suggested CPU is insufficient however. The Jaguar already has less CPU than the vengeance, which again falls under the WTF catagory. I'd suggest +40, to compensate for the additional mid slot and make up for the very low amount of CPU it already has. Jaguar also has the same cap as a rifter, so I'd suggest +20 or +30 cap to this ship. Not much but it'll help. Originally by: Weirda hawk: +2 missile hard point, -2 turret hardpoint +1 low (might need something to make setup work) +20 cpu new bonus to missile rof or dmg +1 Mid would be better, another 30 CPU to allow something to actually be fitted in it as well. Also again the hawk has less cap than it's T1 base ship so +30 cap so it has the same amount at least. 10% optimal range should become 10% missile velocity, new bonus perhaps the cerb's 10% flight time. Not sold on the last one. 5% shield boost becomes 5% missile damage per level. Others not covered in the Oddball's post: Harpy: 5% shield resists per level Retribution: -1 high slot, +1 medium slot, +5% tracking per level (using the zealot template would indicate that ROF should go here but devs don't like frig ROF). There seems to be no common consensus what, exactly, to do with the gallente AF, other than agreement that the ishkur is the only ship that has 10 slots that doesn't need an 11th.
Shinnen	Posted - 2006.01.23 23:22:00 - [305] No way, not another mid on the hawk, it's fine with the med slots, another low would be welcomed and so would another 2 missile hardpoints and get rid of the turret hardpoints all together :) --- INFOD
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.01.24 03:03:00 - [306] Everything in Weirda's original post is beautiful. so so so signed!! Some of the other people along the way have had good ideas for boosting the Jag/Hawk/Veng aswell, but I must say, personally if the Jag got what Weirda suggested, I would never quit EVE...
The Major	Posted - 2006.01.24 04:26:00 - [307] The Hawk should be switched to a 2/4 turret/launcher setup which will finnally give it a decent role. I'd personally suggest missile velocity and damage bonus as a Hawk fitted with T2 Rocket Launchers under these conditions would be the IDEAL boat for T2 Rockets who currently don't have a great home in any dedicated missile setup (slotting 1 or 2 launchers with T2 rockets doesn't gimp you too much but try slotting a kestrel with them and it's pod city). The innate tank of an Assault Frig means you can bump javelin rockets upto over 20km with ship bonus without worrying about the drop in speed (super-frig killer) or fill it with Rages for stripping a cruiser to structure before you even have to turn the shield booster on. If I had my way all halfnhalf ships would be gone though. All having a "balanced" ship does is make it good at nothing and average at everything. The only time it has a chance in combat is going up against another halfnhalf and there are precious few of those left in the game and even less people fly them.
Demon Nuzzle	Posted - 2006.01.24 06:46:00 - [308] The Hawk (suggested changes from someone who uses them all the time): 40 Powergrid --> 42 Powergrid 2 lowslots --> same 4 medslots --> same 4 hislots --> 5 highslots 180 cpuoutput --> 195 cpu 2 launcher hardpoints --> 4 launcher hardpoints 3 turret hardpoints --> 1 turret hardpoint 831 shieldshieldcapacity --> same 0% shield em damage resistance --> same 60% shield explosive damage resistance --> same 70% shield kinetic damage resistance --> same 80% shield thermal damage resistance --> same 500 shield recharge time --> same 344 armorarmorhp --> same 60 armor em damage resistance --> same 10 %armor explosive damage resistance --> same 62.5 %armor kinetic damage resistance --> same 86.25 %armor thermal damage resistance --> same 450 structure --> same 235 m/s max velocity --> same 0 drone capacity --> same 165 Cargo m3capacity --> same 2,250,000 mass --> 2,000,000 150 capacitor recharge time --> same 250 capacitor capacity --> same 45km targetingmaximum targeting range --> same 6 max locked targets --> same 0 radar sensor strength --> same 0 pointsladar sensor strength --> same 0 pointsmagnetometric sensor strength --> same 16 pointsgravimetric sensor strength --> 18 32 pointssignature radius --> same 575mm scan resolution --> same New Suggested Skill bonuses: Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Thermal resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for rockets and standard missles and 5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level. 24000 bytes max please ... -Capsicum A little bit of this, a little bit of that
Mitram	Posted - 2006.01.24 08:26:00 - [309] Originally by: Weirda you missed the point of the thread... After reading this thread I can say that it is like this: 70% give me this and give me that. 20% I trade this for that. 10% remove this and give that. The majority here is to ask for more, as if the AF's are not yet good enough. The most posts are not really about balancing.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.24 09:45:00 - [310] Originally by: Demon Nuzzle The Hawk (suggested changes from someone who uses them all the time): 40 Powergrid --> 42 Powergrid 2 lowslots --> same 4 medslots --> same 4 hislots --> 5 highslots 180 cpuoutput --> 195 cpu 2 launcher hardpoints --> 4 launcher hardpoints 3 turret hardpoints --> 1 turret hardpoint 831 shieldshieldcapacity --> same 0% shield em damage resistance --> same 60% shield explosive damage resistance --> same 70% shield kinetic damage resistance --> same 80% shield thermal damage resistance --> same 500 shield recharge time --> same 344 armorarmorhp --> same 60 armor em damage resistance --> same 10 %armor explosive damage resistance --> same 62.5 %armor kinetic damage resistance --> same 86.25 %armor thermal damage resistance --> same 450 structure --> same 235 m/s max velocity --> same 0 drone capacity --> same 165 Cargo m3capacity --> same 2,250,000 mass --> 2,000,000 150 capacitor recharge time --> same 250 capacitor capacity --> same 45km targetingmaximum targeting range --> same 6 max locked targets --> same 0 radar sensor strength --> same 0 pointsladar sensor strength --> same 0 pointsmagnetometric sensor strength --> same 16 pointsgravimetric sensor strength --> 18 32 pointssignature radius --> same 575mm scan resolution --> same New Suggested Skill bonuses: Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Thermal resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for rockets and standard missles and 5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level. you missing the 4th bonus ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.

Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.24 18:02:00 - [311] Originally by: Mitram Originally by: Weirda you missed the point of the thread... After reading this thread I can say that it is like this: 70% give me this and give me that. 20% I trade this for that. 10% remove this and give that. The majority here is to ask for more, as if the AF's are not yet good enough. The most posts are not really about balancing. The main subject of the thread is to balance the 3 crapy AFs with the others (namely jaguar, hawk, and veangeance). The other point in the thread is to give AFs the 4th bonus they should have, because the fake resist bonus doesn't make sense with all other "assault" T2 ships (HACs, Command Ships). Oh, and some AFs are really good right now (Harpy, Enyo, Ishkur, Retrib for NPC). Did you see much of talk about those? No, because the goal of the thread is to balance the other AFs which are not on par with these, or even next to useless for some. So yeah, you really missed the point of the thread, and obviously don't want to get it, so no need for you to post here, as you can't be on topic if you don't understand what the topic is ===== !!! Fix SB - Love for AFs - Fix drones AI !!!
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.24 19:15:00 - [312] Edited by: Weirda on 24/01/2006 19:16:38 there have been a lot of ideas about what the additional slots should be on the 10 slot ships... though not much discussion about the missing bonus... weirda is gonna throw a few ideas out there, other ideas have been proposed, these are weirda preference (bear in mind these would be sitting on the frig level, so would automatically get 5x their value), though wouldn't mind having some swapped around: - enyo: tracking bonus (don't fly gallente - forgive) - ishkur: these ship are just plain evil - wolf: +1 grid/+3 cpu per level (swap one of the AS bonus to frig bonus and put this as AS bonus, so that dedicated AS pilot can have better fits on their ship then non-dedicated) - jaguar: % shield boost/shield cap use bonus - vengeance: % armor resist a la sacriledge/maller/punisher - retribution: +.2 mid slot per level (swap so that this is AS ship bonus and you get 2 mids at assault ship 5). honestly dunno, seem like they want this to be NPC/support ship though - hawk: missile velocity precision bonus (hit fast targets better) - harpy: tracking the point again the main point is not to make these ship stronger vs. larger targets... only stronger at their intended role. it is very easy for intys to get under the guns of a lot of these long range setups. those unclear on the point would also propose - that if some don't think that AS deserve another bonus, then all assault related ship should have their resistance bonus moved to class level (i.e. friggie/cruiser) and one of their other bonus removed... and not the optimall/falloff/flight time/missile velocity ones, since each ship in these classes seems to have that in their bonus as a necessity. seriously though - this is as ridiculuous as saying that AS don't need a real 4th bonus. __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.01.24 19:56:00 - [313] Edited by: Ithildin on 24/01/2006 19:57:36 Originally by: Weirda - enyo: tracking bonus (don't fly gallente - forgive) - ishkur: these ship are just plain evil - wolf: +1 grid/+3 cpu per level (swap one of the AS bonus to frig bonus and put this as AS bonus, so that dedicated AS pilot can have better fits on their ship then non-dedicated) - jaguar: % shield boost/shield cap use bonus - vengeance: % armor resist a la sacriledge/maller/punisher - retribution: +.2 mid slot per level (swap so that this is AS ship bonus and you get 2 mids at assault ship 5). honestly dunno, seem like they want this to be NPC/support ship though - hawk: missile velocity precision bonus (hit fast targets better) - harpy: tracking More or less, there's a few points where I disagree. Particulary in the cases: Enyo (it already has a tracking bonus), Wolf, Retribution, and Harpy (Harpy is long ranged, and shouldn't get a close combat bonus). I think I've already done a list in this thred, but once more... Format: New bonus suggestion listed in bold. After the ship boni, I have listed the Assault Ship boni. Note that I do not list Optimal bonus as all ships have this. If a bonus is moved instead of introduced, it is written in italic Boni are 5% per level, unless a precedent has been set (10% for missile velocity or turret optimal, 7.5% for target painter or repair amount) Also, I am taking impression from the rest of the thred (I hope) - enyo: Damage, Repair amount \| Tracking - ishkur: * Damage, MWD cap nerf \| +5m¦ Drone Bay \| Mass reduction by at least 300,000 kg - wolf: Damage, Damage \| Falloff - jaguar: * Damage, Tracking \| Velocity \| Mass reduction by at most 250,000 kg - vengeance: ** Cap use, Armour resistance \| Capacitor recharge \| Slot and fitting for another launcher in addition to current layout, perhaps? - retribution: Cap use, Damage \| Damage - hawk: Launcher rate of fire, Missile (kinetic?) Damage** \| Missile velocity, Shield boost amount \| +2 Missile, -2 Turret. [b]- harpy: Optimal, Shield resistance \| Damage * The Ishkur is hardest to fit a bonus for it's role. Any drone bonus will make it too powerful. On the other hand, it is remarkable since it tend to have quite a bit of PG and CPU left for fitting MWD or AB. These aren't very... appropriate... for AFs unless weight is reduced. The Wolf is a formidable beast as it is. It is agile, bordering on bloody fast, but still rather robust and heavy hitting. Even so, I am at a loss for what to place here... I feel fitting boni are... inappropriate * The Jaguar, with an appropriately small weight and a much higher speed should be formidable enough to offset the "missing mid slot" **** The Vengeance is not very impressive. It has an inbuilt CPR, but that's not the best module for a low slot out there. WTB: Galllente/Amarr faction BShip Visit the MC
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.24 21:43:00 - [314] Originally by: Mitram I find it quite wrong that intercepter/AF can solo 2 bs + 1 officer spawns so easily. Ok, they need like 6 minutes for a spawn but how could a solo frigate kill a BS even if it is a stupid npc? Frigates are way overpowered right now. I'd like to see fraps or other proof of an AF soloing an officer spawn in 6 minutes, or at all. Inties just need to lose their damage bonuses period, and have them replaced by tackling bonuses. Then again, an AF isn't just a frigate, and do you find it wrong that a cruiser can take down an NPC BS? Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Sebastien LaForge	Posted - 2006.01.24 22:04:00 - [315] ewww, MWD bonus to the Ishkur? The AF's advantage over larger ships is that they're small, so let's keep it that way. Maybe a non damage based drone bonus. How about speed? Or perhaps more armour on them?
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.01.24 22:12:00 - [316] Tbh, even though im a Retribution pilot... The retribution should NOT get another med slot.. it would become overpowered imo.. Give it another Low slots, add some cpu and change the bonus to cap/speed/damage/RoF/Resist/Web range/Repair bonus and so on. /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.24 22:33:00 - [317] Originally by: LWMaverick Tbh, even though im a Retribution pilot... The retribution should NOT get another med slot.. it would become overpowered imo.. Give it another Low slots, add some cpu and change the bonus to cap/speed/damage/RoF/Resist/Web range/Repair bonus and so on. /Mav as I said it once: more grid, cpu, damage (or tracking) and convert that 5th med slot into a turret slot and voilß: Mobile Turret Platform from hell (idea taken from gun turret platforms from HW2) ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.24 22:40:00 - [318] Originally by: Ithildin - enyo: Damage, Repair amount \| Tracking Repair bonus seems to be as good as any bonus atm. Originally by: Ithildin - ishkur: * Damage, MWD cap nerf \| +5m¦ Drone Bay \| Mass reduction by at least 300,000 kg * The Ishkur is hardest to fit a bonus for it's role. Any drone bonus will make it too powerful. On the other hand, it is remarkable since it tend to have quite a bit of PG and CPU left for fitting MWD or AB. These aren't very... appropriate... for AFs unless weight is reduced. MWD again seems to be as good as any. IMO, it's not the mass that's the problem, it's the speed. The ishkur has a base speed in the 250 range. Where that may make sense for a retribution it doesn't make sense for the ishkur, when the ship it's based on (incursus)is 300m/sec. Gallente AF should have speed boosted into the 270 range at least, and it can be argued that in general, with the exception of the minmatar AF they are too slow in general. Originally by: Ithildin - wolf: Damage, Damage \| Falloff The Wolf is a formidable beast as it is. It is agile, bordering on bloody fast, but still rather robust and heavy hitting. Even so, I am at a loss for what to place here... I feel fitting boni are... inappropriate Tracking, not damage. Look at the muninn (which is a good HAC despite what some think). Extra damage is useless if you can't hit anything, and the wolf bonuses lend towards artillery - which as everyone knows has miserable tracking. Against fast moving frig targets (a frequent occurance in the AF world) tracking is quite important. If you want more DPS then you can go in the direction of the gyrostab - oh, wait, because of miserable CPU (as I noted previously) this is problematic at best. Therefore IMO you also need to address the CPU shortcoming of the ship as well. As for fitting bonus, well if CCP thought that was a good idea we'd have seen it already, so I don't think too much of that suggestion. Originally by: Ithildin - jaguar: *** Damage, Tracking \| Velocity \| Mass reduction by at most 250,000 kg * The Jaguar, with an appropriately small weight and a much higher speed should be formidable enough to offset the "missing mid slot" The Jag needs the slot, not the mass decrease. What advantage does the inty have then, if not the ability to outmanuver the jaguar? It's an assault frigate, that means the ability to take damage, not an interceptor, and it needs to be differentiated from the inty in some way. What it does need is more CPU. It's already critically short, like the wolf, and if you add a 4th mid slot as the overwhelming consensus on this ship dictates, you'll have people saying fitting a vindicator is easy in comparison. Originally by:** Ithildin - vengeance: ** Cap use, Armour resistance \| Capacitor recharge \| Slot and fitting for another launcher in addition to current layout, perhaps? ** The Vengeance is not very impressive. It has an inbuilt CPR, but that's not the best module for a low slot out there. The high slot layout is fine - lasers and a launcher is nothing revolutionary (if you mount a launcher instead of a nos). I see the weapons layout being very similar to that of an ishkur actually (different weapons of course) in the high slots. However, in order to make this ship not considered to be a toy, you still need to replace the optimal range bonus with a small energy turret bonus. This will address the biggest issue with this ship, pitiful damage. What it also needs is, like the sacrlidge, to have the shield and armor amounts rethought, so that it has more armor than shield points. Say 700 armor and 613 shield (still same amount of points total). Again +1 low slot, as adding a mid slot to a ship that is armor tanked is like armor tanking the cyclone atm - it makes little sense but for specialty setups, as this khanid thing is gone a bit far IMO.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.24 22:46:00 - [319] Originally by: Ithildin - retribution: Cap use, Damage \| Damage Tracking, again, is important for a frigate, so I'd go with that instead. Zealot template says turret ROF and I'd like actually to see that but devs don't like small turret ROF. Originally by: Ithildin - hawk: Launcher rate of fire, Missile (kinetic?) Damage \| [b]Missile velocity, Shield boost amount \| +2 Missile, -2 Turret. Needs another slot. I say mid slot to be able to go with jamming or scramming, but a low to put a BCU in would also do. I'm not that sold frankly on shield boosting, another missile bonus might be better.
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.01.24 22:51:00 - [320] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: LWMaverick Tbh, even though im a Retribution pilot... The retribution should NOT get another med slot.. it would become overpowered imo.. Give it another Low slots, add some cpu and change the bonus to cap/speed/damage/RoF/Resist/Web range/Repair bonus and so on. /Mav as I said it once: more grid, cpu, damage (or tracking) and convert that 5th med slot into a turret slot and voilß: Mobile Turret Platform from hell (idea taken from gun turret platforms from HW2) Win... YaY Where can i sign?... oh there /me signs With great power, comes great responsibility.

Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.24 22:59:00 - [321] Edited by: Grimpak on 24/01/2006 22:59:17 Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: LWMaverick Tbh, even though im a Retribution pilot... The retribution should NOT get another med slot.. it would become overpowered imo.. Give it another Low slots, add some cpu and change the bonus to cap/speed/damage/RoF/Resist/Web range/Repair bonus and so on. /Mav as I said it once: more grid, cpu, damage (or tracking) and convert that 5th high slot into a turret slot and voilß: Mobile Turret Platform from hell (idea taken from gun turret platforms from HW2) Win... YaY Where can i sign?... oh there /me signs omg I made a booboo 5th HIGH slot, not MED slot corrected ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.01.24 23:03:00 - [322] Yeah i know what you meant :P With great power, comes great responsibility.
Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.24 23:16:00 - [323] Originally by: Kai Lae The Jag needs the slot, not the mass decrease. What advantage does the inty have then, if not the ability to outmanuver the jaguar? It's an assault frigate, that means the ability to take damage, not an interceptor, and it needs to be differentiated from the inty in some way. What it does need is more CPU. It's already critically short, like the wolf, and if you add a 4th mid slot as the overwhelming consensus on this ship dictates, you'll have people saying fitting a vindicator is easy in comparison. The optimal bonus should be dropped for a falloff bonus. This ship has always said "autocannons" to me and if you go the mini vagabond route it makes little sense to keep an optimal bonus. QFT for replacing the range bonus with a falloff bonus. Optimal bonus with AC is like no bonus at all. That's a mistake they made on HACs too, really don't see why all "assault" ships got that optimal bonus, which is completely useless with ACs. As for the hawk, I don't think it should get +2 launcher HP, +1 would be enough. No other AF can fit all its high slots with its main weapon... (either an utility slot or a slot only for secondary weapon), neither should the hawk imho. But I agree it should be changed into a missile AF (3 launchers 2 turrets instead of 2 and 3, and missile bonus instead of turret bonus). Though, jag, hawk and veangeance all have a damage problem, being all three in the same DPS area, which is a rifter's DPS, and thus outdamage by damage oriented interceptors, which is quite wrong imho (a second damage bonus for jag would do the trick though, maybe giving hawk 4 launchers in spite of what I said above, and adding the missing vengeance slot as a high with a launcher HP, dunno). Wolf could get damage + rof instead of double damage. Intended to be used with artys, double damage would be insane for alpha strike, but with rof + damage it'd be closer to harpy's damage at least (now it falls way behind). Retrib: a second damage bonus? That'd be insane! Maybe tracking or another range bonus, or even the armor resist bonus from punisher instead. Ishkur: what about a drone control range maybe? Would possibly give it too much range though. Or maybe a small bonus to drone optimal, but definitely not a drone damage bonus ===== !!! Fix SB - Love for AFs - Fix drones AI !!!
Shinnen	Posted - 2006.01.24 23:21:00 - [324] Lets have this SOONÖ plz --- INFOD
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.01.24 23:38:00 - [325] Originally by: Trelennen QFT for replacing the range bonus with a falloff bonus. Optimal bonus with AC is like no bonus at all. That's a mistake they made on HACs too, really don't see why all "assault" ships got that optimal bonus, which is completely useless with ACs. Actually, vagabond has falloff, not optimal, and so does the deimos. This is kinda my point, give it bonuses that fit it's use.
Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.24 23:43:00 - [326] Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: Trelennen QFT for replacing the range bonus with a falloff bonus. Optimal bonus with AC is like no bonus at all. That's a mistake they made on HACs too, really don't see why all "assault" ships got that optimal bonus, which is completely useless with ACs. Actually, vagabond has falloff, not optimal, and so does the deimos. This is kinda my point, give it bonuses that fit it's use. Indeed you're right, I tend to forget some things when tired. Anyway, AFs should really be HACs at frig level (hence why a damage + rof on wolf would really fit the pattern of its big brother the muninn). ===== !!! Fix SB - Love for AFs - Fix drones AI !!!
KingsGambit	Posted - 2006.01.24 23:47:00 - [327] Assault frigs do have 4 bonuses. Some Interceptors now however have only 3. And if we use the logic that 1-2 of the AFs bonuses allow it to do what it should be to start with....then we should make all Inties smaller and replace the sig radius bonus with something useful. Also Cov Ops frigs should have the Cloak CPU reduction built in and not as a bonus as they have a wasted bonus right there. Also the Manticore has two bonuses to fitting Cruise Launchers, the others have 1 IIRC, that should also be built in and then Stealth Bombers can have 1-2 more bonuses. Many AFs are already smaller than Inties and lighter than Stealth Bombers. Considering they should for their role be slow, heavy, large due to heavy shields/armour...they aren't that slow, not that heavy and not very large at all. I say leave them how they are, or if they should be changed, they should be larger than Inties & heavier than Stealth Bombers. ------------- My T2 Shop
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.01.24 23:57:00 - [328] Originally by: KingsGambit Assault frigs do have 4 bonuses. You need to read the post. And the Tuxford already sayed he would take a look at it. /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
Trelennen	Posted - 2006.01.24 23:58:00 - [329] Originally by: KingsGambit Assault frigs do have 4 bonuses. Some Interceptors now however have only 3. Those have a double bonus. And if we consider AFs have 4 real bonii, the let's remove one of the bonii from cruiser/BC skill for HACs and Command ships to give them the resist bonus, or lets remove their uber resists... That's exactly the same for AFs. Considering the pattern used for other "assault" ships, and that this bonus is hardcoded (it shows on the attributes even on a show infow when you don't have frig 5), it is not a "real" bonus. As for the sig radius bonus, it's a bonus from cov op skill, not a hardcoded fake bonus. Same for the cov op cloak cpu bonus from cov op skill for cov ops. For Bombers, however, the cruise launcher grid bonus from frig skill could be considered as a fake bonus too, I agree. All you did was comparing apples and guns. No common point. ===== !!! Fix SB - Love for AFs - Fix drones AI !!!
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.26 06:10:00 - [330] Bump due to importance. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.

LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.01.26 07:32:00 - [331] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Bump due to importance. Dont worry.. Tuxford has already stated that he is looking into this. /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.27 04:16:00 - [332] Doesn't hurt to keep it fresh for everyone. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.27 04:42:00 - [333] hey tux - you know you want to join hammer in this thread... love you long time... you too tomB... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More! The pumps don't work...
Elaina Cosengo	Posted - 2006.01.27 20:29:00 - [334] Wolverine what help does the Enyo need, it can kill any other AF and the Ishkur with its drones gives the big four a hard time as it is, evil little drones. I dont think we should be destracted with the Harpy, Enyo, Ret or Wolf well maybe the wolf a little, Remember this is about the crappy others that need to find roles rather than being OK at everything (not). Specialization is the way to go and these ships dont spec in anything. give us 8 to pick from not 4 (five if you count Ishkur) i really dont know about the 4th bonus so dont ask me.
Mesasone	Posted - 2006.01.28 16:52:00 - [335] bumpity bump :D
Crellion	Posted - 2006.01.28 17:10:00 - [336] Originally by: Elaina Cosengo Wolverine what help does the Enyo need, it can kill any other AF and the Ishkur with its drones gives the big four a hard time as it is, evil little drones. I dont think we should be destracted with the Harpy, Enyo, Ret or Wolf well maybe the wolf a little, Remember this is about the crappy others that need to find roles rather than being OK at everything (not). Specialization is the way to go and these ships dont spec in anything. give us 8 to pick from not 4 (five if you count Ishkur) i really dont know about the 4th bonus so dont ask me. qft (apart from the madatory minnie whine)
Weirda	Posted - 2006.01.29 15:56:00 - [337] Originally by: Weirda hey tux - you know you want to join hammer in this thread... love you long time... you too tomB... page 4... really hoping that this can be done at least along with KALI... if not earlier... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More! The pumps don't work...
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.29 16:16:00 - [338] sorry, weirda - I would've bumped it earlier but I was forum banned for 48 hours :/ still needs looking at
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.01.29 18:24:00 - [339] hey ho, back to top you go was thinking about 4th bonus as well, give all AF a tanking bonus as that is what their role is, a tank more or less... just a thought ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
CardboardSword42	Posted - 2006.01.29 21:16:00 - [340] Edited by: CardboardSword42 on 29/01/2006 21:16:31 Gotta keep this thread on the first page Fleshreaper Inc. Representative

Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.01.30 04:49:00 - [341] Bump. Flew my harpy today with someone who had a Hawk. I think they now have a Harpy. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.01.31 05:34:00 - [342] Suggestion for Jaguar bonus: 5% bonus to AB speed boost per level.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.02 09:38:00 - [343] bump
Aba Tor	Posted - 2006.02.02 09:49:00 - [344] Originally by: Sarmaul bump Hey man watch where ur going u BUMPed my car:) Oha nd if i'm here, pls loose the fake bonus and replace it with something usefull!!! ... A wise man never plays TAG with a RINO
3030	Posted - 2006.02.04 09:06:00 - [345] I think need create optional ship module, when u build personal fit. Example: 3 Slots: 1.(+30CPU, -5PG) and other - Your sig is humongous, please resize thx! -zhuge http://images.people.overclockers.ru/55914.gif
Rob Boberton	Posted - 2006.02.06 22:21:00 - [346] I find your views fascinating and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. More launcher 4 hawk!
Erik Pathfinder	Posted - 2006.02.06 22:34:00 - [347] Originally by: Kai Lae Hawk - +1 med, +1 launcher hardpoint (NOTE - you really don't want only launcher hardpoints, it makes setups a bit predictable), (frigate) 5% bonus to missile ROF, 5% bonus to shield resists, (AF) 5% bonus to missile velocity, 5% bonus to rocket and standard missile damage per level. Everything he said here please ------------------------- In need of Mod domination
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.02.06 23:03:00 - [348] I might be completly off with this but I'm just trying to keep the conversation fresh so bear with me. I think it's important that every af fulfills a unique role. It's just that 3 of them don't cut it. As far as I can see the 3 ships sacrifice damage in exchange for something else. hawk - tanking jag - speed/versatility vengeance - cap In all of the cases the loss in damage doesn't make up for what they gain. The hawk tanks nicely but can't kill anything, the jag doesn't have the cpu to take advantage of it's balanced slot layout and the vengeance doesn't have the slots to make good use of it's huge cap regen. So should they be buffed towards fulfilling their current roles or should we scrap the roles for something else as they're flawed in the first place?
xeom	Posted - 2006.02.07 04:35:00 - [349] Yes the jag does need a buff and i think the extra mid slot and 30 more CPU is just the thing. can't really comment on the other ships because i dont fly them. ---------------------- O Snapz!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.07 09:28:00 - [350] bumpety bumpety bump

Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.02.07 18:30:00 - [351] And another thing: We dont need the stinking optimal range bonus on Jaguars and Wolfes. It discriminates against Auto Cannons. Make it a falloff bonus. Guns have equal rights too.
Vox Virilis	Posted - 2006.02.17 05:43:00 - [352] Originally by: Zippy Pinno And another thing: We dont need the stinking optimal range bonus on Jaguars and Wolfes. It discriminates against Auto Cannons. Make it a falloff bonus. Guns have equal rights too. Agreed! should definitely be changed to falloff bonus. "My backpack's got jet's. I'm Boba the Fett. I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt, to finance my Vette. -wikiwikiwa!"

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.02.17 08:41:00 - [353] Originally by: Vox Virilis Originally by: Zippy Pinno And another thing: We dont need the stinking optimal range bonus on Jaguars and Wolfes. It discriminates against Auto Cannons. Make it a falloff bonus. Guns have equal rights too. Agreed! should definitely be changed to falloff bonus. Oh now everybody wants my falloff bonus. _______________

DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.02.17 08:56:00 - [354] Has anyone considered that maybe AF don't need a fourth bonus? That maybe.. they'll still suck even with a fourth bonus? I think they're perfectly fine. I think its everything else to do with combat balance in this game that is screwed up. - interceptor damage output - precision missiles - overclass nosferatus - Drone tracking Four reasons why AF suck more than they should. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2006.02.17 09:21:00 - [355] The trouble with falloff is that it looks good on graphs, but when it comes ot practice, the Jaguar, and Rifter, are immensley more useful with this bonus because they are tacklers, and by defenition that means they need to get up close, and this is where the tracking bonus helps them to do damage, even with the big guns. So while it makes a nice graph layout, falloff is much less useful in the situations those ships were designed for. Life is not a bunch of numbers :) - - The fire burns..
Mesasone	Posted - 2006.02.17 12:47:00 - [356] Back to page one *****es, hell yeah! WESSSSSTTTTSIIIIIDDDDDDEEEE! Silly mods, sigs are for wabbits.
Somatic Neuron	Posted - 2006.02.17 15:09:00 - [357] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Has anyone considered that maybe AF don't need a fourth bonus? That maybe.. they'll still suck even with a fourth bonus? I think they're perfectly fine. I think its everything else to do with combat balance in this game that is screwed up. - interceptor damage output - precision missiles - overclass nosferatus - Drone tracking Four reasons why AF suck more than they should. QFT...interceptor damage output is too high, considering they should be intercepting and tackling, not intercepting and destroying. Intys should have, at most, 2 high slots for turrets, plus 1 utility slot for Nos/Neut....they should all have at least 3 mid slots for EW...and 4 low slots for armor tanking... Tier 1 Intys should have less armor tanking capability, and maybe 1 turret highslot... bonuses for the Intys should be related to tackling/survivability (for instance...bonus to warp scrambler/disruptor range as first bonus, bonus to armor resistances per level (based on race of ship) as second bonus, and all Intys should have inherent warp core stabilizers built in ala blockade runner transport ships. This would make the Assault frigs more powerful and more useful in and of itself...and put the Intys more in line with the way they should be (i.e. fast tacklers that can jump a ship that is trying to escape and still live to tell the tale as long as support comes up to take care of it...solo Inty kills should drastically reduce (except for things like frigs/shuttles/indys) ----------
Starlix	Posted - 2006.02.17 18:08:00 - [358] Hi did this ever go anywhere?
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.17 23:26:00 - [359] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Vox Virilis Originally by: Zippy Pinno And another thing: We dont need the stinking optimal range bonus on Jaguars and Wolfes. It discriminates against Auto Cannons. Make it a falloff bonus. Guns have equal rights too. Agreed! should definitely be changed to falloff bonus. Oh now everybody wants my falloff bonus. yes, on minmatar ships that fight in their falloff, not amarr ships that fight in their optimal also, bump Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sarmaul 4tw.
Jaeuhl	Posted - 2006.02.18 08:47:00 - [360] and if/when the hawk does get the launcher addition, can we put those spanky missile silos somewhere on the AF? much like the crow has...it's an AF it should look beefier and not just a worm dipped in PAAS during Easter.

Vishnej	Posted - 2006.02.18 08:58:00 - [361] Edited by: Vishnej on 18/02/2006 09:00:06 Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Vox Virilis Originally by: Zippy Pinno And another thing: We dont need the stinking optimal range bonus on Jaguars and Wolfes. It discriminates against Auto Cannons. Make it a falloff bonus. Guns have equal rights too. Agreed! should definitely be changed to falloff bonus. Oh now everybody wants my falloff bonus. As well, the Thrasher deserves a 50% falloff bonus instead of optimal, the Cormorant deserves +25% optimal +25% falloff in place of optimal bonus, and the Typhoon would be worth playing as a dual missile/projectile ship(rather than a tempest that just happens to have two less turrets) if it got a 15%/level falloff bonus and 30%/level missile velocity bonus. Industry Demands
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.02.18 18:49:00 - [362] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Vox Virilis Originally by: Zippy Pinno And another thing: We dont need the stinking optimal range bonus on Jaguars and Wolfes. It discriminates against Auto Cannons. Make it a falloff bonus. Guns have equal rights too. Agreed! should definitely be changed to falloff bonus. Oh now everybody wants my falloff bonus. No, only where it makes sense. I disagree about falloff on the wolf. In general, the layout of the wolf is similar to the muninn, suggesting artillery, where the speed and lesser grid of the jaguar suggests autocannons, meaning logically falloff (which it doesn't have). This is not only an issue with the minmatar ships but if a MWD bonus is added to the ishkur then logic would hold that the optimal bonus should be replaced with falloff as well. In short, currently there seems to be an issue with AF where the bonuses in some cases drive them to use the same weapons in the same way. No differentiation in roles. This then creates an issue because of different slot layouts where some ships do the role that currently they are pointed at (long range) better than the others, leading to what could be described as "second class" assault frigates. That's what Weirda (I think) and I really don't like the most, is that you have for some races what is considered to be a "useful" AF and then a ship that's considered to be the one you get if you're low on cash and can't afford the first. I think that all should be about equal, and that's where this thread comes from IMO.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.02.18 21:11:00 - [363] Edited by: Grimpak on 18/02/2006 21:12:30 Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Vox Virilis Originally by: Zippy Pinno And another thing: We dont need the stinking optimal range bonus on Jaguars and Wolfes. It discriminates against Auto Cannons. Make it a falloff bonus. Guns have equal rights too. Agreed! should definitely be changed to falloff bonus. Oh now everybody wants my falloff bonus. No, only where it makes sense. I disagree about falloff on the wolf. In general, the layout of the wolf is similar to the muninn, suggesting artillery, where the speed and lesser grid of the jaguar suggests autocannons, meaning logically falloff (which it doesn't have). This is not only an issue with the minmatar ships but if a MWD bonus is added to the ishkur then logic would hold that the optimal bonus should be replaced with falloff as well. In short, currently there seems to be an issue with AF where the bonuses in some cases drive them to use the same weapons in the same way. No differentiation in roles. This then creates an issue because of different slot layouts where some ships do the role that currently they are pointed at (long range) better than the others, leading to what could be described as "second class" assault frigates. That's what Weirda (I think) and I really don't like the most, is that you have for some races what is considered to be a "useful" AF and then a ship that's considered to be the one you get if you're low on cash and can't afford the first. I think that all should be about equal, and that's where this thread comes from IMO. hmm here's a silly idea: How about making the wolf and the jag proficient in both artys AND ac's? That would reinforce the idea of versatile race. For example: Wolf works nicely with AC's but better with artys and Jag works nicely with artys but better with AC's? ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.02.19 00:44:00 - [364] Arr.. denied - just checked the Yarrdware test server. No changes to any of the AFs i know.
Ortu Konsinni	Posted - 2006.02.19 01:12:00 - [365] Originally by: Zippy Pinno Arr.. denied - just checked the Yarrdware test server. No changes to any of the AFs i know. I have no idea whether changes to AFs are planned, however I do think that if there were any such changes, you would not see them on the new yarrdware server, as it's the same build as Tranquility for now. --- Ship Gallery Helpdesk from Hell
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.27 09:16:00 - [366] A man walks into a bar... bump Originally by: Zzazzt Originally by: thoth foc PA doesnt stand for anything.. Punchbag Alliance...
Weirda	Posted - 2006.02.27 10:12:00 - [367] sweet mother! back from the dead! maybe they do this stuff post kali? we need to get a lot of new t2 ships out there first! __ Weirda Assault Ship deserve a 4th Bonus and More!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.27 10:23:00 - [368] Originally by: Weirda sweet mother! back from the dead! damn right, I want a reason to use a jaguar over a rifter Originally by: Zzazzt Originally by: thoth foc PA doesnt stand for anything.. Punchbag Alliance...
Captain Merkin	Posted - 2006.02.27 10:48:00 - [369] Fall off bonus on Wolf would be nice and helpful for both artie and autocannons :) Jaguar seems ok, though cant find much use for it over a rifter. I would like to see both ships being able to use arties and autos just as well as each other, though I struggle to fit a full wrack of 280's on a wolf :( Also on the wolf the resistances are pretty sucky which makes a real difference in a fight and means a bit of a struggle fitting it up for a nice rounded resistance machine like the harpy. The Harpy I have no complaints about at all, though would like to see some sort of tracking bonus thrown into the mix. (simply because i cant hit ****) Enyo and Ishkur seem ok from what I hear though I have a few days left before I can hop into them. Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981. The Kamikaze pilot
Forsch	Posted - 2006.02.27 11:16:00 - [370] Originally by: Sarmaul damn right, I want a reason to use a jaguar over a rifter That's right. Nerf the Rifter! ________________________________________________________________ Forsch Defender of the empire

Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.27 13:34:00 - [371] zomg I bumped it again
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.02.27 14:24:00 - [372] Originally by: Grimpak hmm here's a silly idea: How about making the wolf and the jag proficient in both artys AND ac's? That would reinforce the idea of versatile race. For example: Wolf works nicely with AC's but better with artys and Jag works nicely with artys but better with AC's? The muninn works with autocannons, and the vagabond works with artillery, just not as well as if you used artillery on the muninn and autocannons on the vagabond. This is why I think optimal bonus is better on the wolf and falloff better on the jaguar.
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:25:00 - [373] Lets face it, AF use for pvp is dying out. My corp mates who lose AFs dont replace them. I see everyone flying cruisers, the only people flying frigs anymore are noobs like me (intys excluded). We need to boost these fun little ships.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.27 22:28:00 - [374] Originally by: Zippy Pinno Lets face it, AF use for pvp is dying out. My corp mates who lose AFs dont replace them. I see everyone flying cruisers, the only people flying frigs anymore are noobs like me (intys excluded). We need to boost these fun little ships. actually, the issue is more that interceptors go faster and do more damage than assault frigs. The biggest thing assault frigs have going for them is their tank, but tbh the role of a frig in pvp isn't to tank, it's to slap as many damn scramblers on the target as fast as possible.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.02.27 23:33:00 - [375] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Zippy Pinno Lets face it, AF use for pvp is dying out. My corp mates who lose AFs dont replace them. I see everyone flying cruisers, the only people flying frigs anymore are noobs like me (intys excluded). We need to boost these fun little ships. actually, the issue is more that interceptors go faster and do more damage than assault frigs. The biggest thing assault frigs have going for them is their tank, but tbh the role of a frig in pvp isn't to tank, it's to slap as many damn scramblers on the target as fast as possible. so true if only intys could dish less damage and Afrigs more damage ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Denrace	Posted - 2006.02.28 01:05:00 - [376] Why not give inties a bonus to scrambler strength instead of the dmg bonus. Give AF's a 10% Dmg bonus. ________________________________________ Replace the Nighthawk's Target Nav bonus with a ROF bonus! I make Custom Sigs.
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.02.28 01:10:00 - [377] Originally by: Denrace Why not give inties a bonus to scrambler strength instead of the dmg bonus. Give AF's a 10% Dmg bonus. I wouldnt be able to keep from getting my keyboard all sticky if they did that.... That would actually fix two balance issues at once, the fact that Inties can do as much damage as most AFs and that AFs need a little boost
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.02.28 22:41:00 - [378] Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Originally by: Denrace Why not give inties a bonus to scrambler strength instead of the dmg bonus. Give AF's a 10% Dmg bonus. I wouldnt be able to keep from getting my keyboard all sticky if they did that.... That would actually fix two balance issues at once, the fact that Inties can do as much damage as most AFs and that AFs need a little boost indeed, however that brings another issue. Claw/Crusader/Ares would be useless because they only have 2 meds. ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.02.28 22:57:00 - [379] How about giving intys decent asault resists? Then take the double damage bonus away and give it to the AFs. We should end up with harder tacklers and usefull AFs. The frigs got shafted with the 25% hitpoint increase in RMR. We can boost all the elite frig resists without making them overpowered.
Pes T'Lance	Posted - 2006.03.01 00:59:00 - [380] Gimme +5 explosive or kinetic damage per level for lasers on the ret and vengence, it would make a change for amarr to be brought inline with other races that have damage type flexibility. Min can choose damage with missiles and ammo, caldari can choose damage with missiles, galante can choose damage with drones and amarr can choose feck all. Ok maybe not entirely spot on as there are the odd few ships with drones and missiles but not in the same numbers or capability as the other 3 races. That would also more than make up for the mid slot envy ret pilots get.

Damien Vox	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:04:00 - [381] Pest if you want that then I want the other AF's to be able to have three high armor resists not two. The Amarr do EM damage, that's what your weapon is. Like you guys tell the Minmatar "deal with it", so we do. All I want to see is the wolf/jag get a bit more grid/cpu cause both of them are hard to fit most times. After that I'll be happy, well...unless you wanna give AF's damage bonuses. Because right now the Inty's have quite a few advantages over AF's and they need something to help them out. I love my wolf and jag but its hard to find a niche to fit into with them.
Valea Silpha	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:21:00 - [382] Amen to all of this. Personally i want to see the jag boosted most of all, becuase im due to start flying AFs in a month, but i flatly refuse to fly any minmatar ship with an armor tank. So 4 meds please :)
Arashi Miike	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:02:00 - [383] Ditto to the spirit of this thread...AFs need more lovin' Especially the Hawk and Vengence. Both, I think, need another missile hardpoint.
Corey Grim	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:25:00 - [384] i havent read all the 13 page thread sorry about that guys but Yes Af¦s need some love. Jag need that 4th med slot and it and it needs lil more cpu/grid also the missing bonus should be imho agility/mass reduction so it speed really comes handfull oh and if u see it balanced 27M sig radius wouldnt be so bad thing either... the more cpu/grid thingie explains itself quite easily: JAG should be mwd fitted AF. sry if these have been proposed. {VIDEO}No Mattter The Cost.
Captain Merkin	Posted - 2006.03.01 08:50:00 - [385] Hmmm how about this. Boost Jag and Wolf cpu/power slightly enabling an artie set up and a degree of tank. Add a racial +5/af lv to a damage type, maybe even throw something unsual into the mix like em damage on minmatar ships. Sort out the resistances so they are more spread out and no major weak spots. Increase armour hp or shield hp of all af by 10% - 15% relevant to lay out, ie: harpy- shield, jag - shield, wolf - armour Sort out a caldari missiles/rocket af with relevant bonuses. Remove the resistance bonus that is already built in and rethink them .. 60% or there abouts across the board is not too bad? Change wolf to fall off bonus rather than optimal. this is really just ideas so just say what you think about them.. most important to me is: wolf resists and falloff bonus need looking at Harpy could use a bigger bonus to damage Hawk needs missile slots and bonuses looked at! As for ceptors I think they should still keep some degree of damage bonuses but have increased scrambler strenght or webber strengh.. ie: stilleto +0.5 point scrambler strenght per/af lv or +0.25, claw +5% to webber strengh/lv but that is a different thread Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981. The Kamikaze pilot
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2006.03.01 08:57:00 - [386] Instead of changing PowerGrid, Slot load outs Etc.... Make them fulfil their roles. Give them the Damage output of interceptors. Afterall they are assualt ships, and they hust cannot dish out the damage an inty can. (Forget DPS, DOT and all those crummy statistics) The fact of the matter is that Interceptors get a 10% Damage bonus whereas Assualt frigs get normal 5% ------------------------------------------------ I Pity the Fool !

TomB	Posted - 2006.03.01 10:29:00 - [387] It's being looked at for a post-Blood patch; we will also use this chance to balance them out a little by giving the craps a better bonus than the anti-craps. .

Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.01 10:48:00 - [388] Originally by: TomB It's being looked at for a post-Blood patch; we will also use this chance to balance them out a little by giving the craps a better bonus than the anti-craps. WOOOOHOOOOOO! ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Logan Xerxes	Posted - 2006.03.01 10:54:00 - [389] Next question: when will the titanic fight between Hellgremlin's and TomB's egos begin? Originally by: Balrog Valarauko Iknew a guy back in high school that was from Romania I think. His name was Anus. No joke...poor kid.[/qu
Corey Grim	Posted - 2006.03.01 11:06:00 - [390] Originally by: Captain Merkin Change wolf to fall off bonus rather than optimal. grrr no... Wolf is good when it has optimal bonus /me likes optimal bonus in wolf. {VIDEO}No Mattter The Cost.

MrCue	Posted - 2006.03.01 11:28:00 - [391] I always hated the ceptors getting any weapon based bonuses. less cap for scram & mwd, better range for scrams & webs, better lock time. Ceptors should do one thing, tackle. I would GLADLY sacrafice all my weapon slots for some of the above bonuses. Killmail Database
Mesasone	Posted - 2006.03.01 11:35:00 - [392] Originally by: TomB It's being looked at for a post-Blood patch; we will also use this chance to balance them out a little by giving the craps a better bonus than the anti-craps. W-hat? Silly mods, sigs are for wabbits.
Captain Merkin	Posted - 2006.03.01 12:15:00 - [393] craps and anti-craps... toilet talk if you ask me.. confused merkin goes to play in ball pool Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981. The Kamikaze pilot
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.03.01 17:33:00 - [394] Reviving thread a bit my thoughts on 4th bonus for the AF's: -Make one more about staying alive(tanking) and the other about killing(ganking) Amarr - Retribution: +5% laser damage per level. - Vengeance: -5% repair duration per level. Caldari - Harpy: +5% shield resists per level. - Hawk: -2 turrets, +2 launchers, bonuses: +10% missile velocity per level, +10% kinetic damage per level, +5% em, explosive and thermal damage per level, +5% explosion velocity per level. Gallente - Enyo: +7.5% armor repair amount per level. - Ishkur: +10% drone damage and healtpoints per level. Minmatar - Jaguar: +5% velocity per level. - Wolf: +5% projectile damage per level -> +10% projectile damage per level. next to that i'd say the tacklers would have to lose some of their offensive bonuses and gain tackling bonuses, like optimal range boost to webbers and warp scramblers/disruptors or a bonus to tackling gear strength (would need a change to warp scramblers to get appropriate results I think). ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.03.01 18:02:00 - [395] Originally by: TomB It's being looked at for a post-Blood patch; we will also use this chance to balance them out a little by giving the craps a better bonus than the anti-craps. Great - this sounds good. I think we can translate craps = AFs (good description) and anti-craps = interceptors. I hope this means a boost to AFs not a nerf to interceptors. Puleese - we dont need any frig nerfs
The Guapo	Posted - 2006.03.01 18:27:00 - [396] Edited by: The Guapo on 01/03/2006 18:26:57 .
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.01 18:49:00 - [397] Originally by: Reatu Krentor - Ishkur: +10% drone damage and healtpoints per level. ...you know that the ishkur will be totally overpowered if you add a drone damage bonus right? ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.03.01 19:33:00 - [398] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Reatu Krentor - Ishkur: +10% drone damage and healtpoints per level. ...you know that the ishkur will be totally overpowered if you add a drone damage bonus right? prolly , but it would do what an assault should do, hmm maybe make it a 5% bonus instead of 10% ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Mesasone	Posted - 2006.03.01 22:18:00 - [399] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Reatu Krentor - Ishkur: +10% drone damage and healtpoints per level. ...you know that the ishkur will be totally overpowered if you add a drone damage bonus right? prolly , but it would do what an assault should do, hmm maybe make it a 5% bonus instead of 10% ...please... I beg you.... I dont want to pay 50m for my Ishkurs :( Silly mods, sigs are for wabbits.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.01 22:19:00 - [400] Edited by: Grimpak on 01/03/2006 22:22:26 Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Reatu Krentor - Ishkur: +10% drone damage and healtpoints per level. ...you know that the ishkur will be totally overpowered if you add a drone damage bonus right? prolly , but it would do what an assault should do, hmm maybe make it a 5% bonus instead of 10% well, intys need a change that's true. how about this: group all the intys, strip away their bonuses, bar the damage one, and take 1 high out, out of the claw, crusader, and ares. These should gain a 3rd mid instead. the "killer" intys (crusader, taranis, crow, claw) get a tracking bonus + a bonus to web range. the "tackler" intys (ares, stilleto, raptor, malediction), get a bonus to cap consumption to the warp scramblers, instead the tracking bonuses of the "killer" types, bit more speedy, and smaller than the killer types. Also they get a role bonus (like fleet commands do with the ability of having 3 command modules) wich says "+1 strenght to warp scramblers and +2 strenght to warp jammers" (20 and 7.5km respectively). the bonuses that are left (2 for each inty afaik) could be something like maintaining the signature radious of the ship bonus, and a "dedicated" bonus to each ship. ...but this is me brainfarting so don't mind me now on to the AF's: Minmatar's strenghts should be their light, but high-damage ships, thus each one should be the embroyment of each of these philosophies: - Jag with a speed bonus = cool, but add a 4th med slot and a 20 or so more CPU. - Wolf could go with a change in the mass. That way it would still be slower than the jag, but would take more out of the AB/MWD (viable AC setups anyone?), and that idea of the damage bonus increase would be nice too. Amarrians are armour and laser kings, altho the Khanid have been in New Caldari for too long so their designs have weird mixes: - Vengeance: adding a tanking bonus is a nice idea, but don't forget khanid are caldari lovers so give a 4th med to it. Also swap the shield and armour values like it was made with the Sacrilege. - Retribution: should be "teh ubar laz0r platform", so give it a bit more grid, cpu, make that 5th high a turret slot aswell and a tracking bonus. Mobile Turret Platform FTW! Caldari: Rail, missiles and ECM while having strong shields, so let's make those ships like that eh? - Harpy: it's good as it is, but maybe adding a shield resist bonus is a bit too much. Maybe a plain "+5% shield hitpoints per level" bonus? It wouldn't screw the ship too much, and it wouldn't make it too overpowered afaik? - Hawk: ugly baby of the caldari Those bonus and changes you said are the ones that should be made. Also add a 5th med, keep the shield boosting bonus and increase the shield hp to 860, and say hello to the baby raven Gallente: they already have the most all-round Afrigs in EVE, so it will be hard to put extra stuff in them without tearing apart the ballance between races. So how about: - Enyo: +5 more grid, and a tanking bonus. I'm a firm believer that Enyo should be a heavy weight of the Afrig world, designed to at least cripple ships from bigger classes (talking about cruisers here), but not overperforming in anti-frig duty. - Ishkur: tri-horned green devil that summons his minions from hell. Hands down, is one of the most versatile ships ingame, and (rather) undisputable king in frig warfare. (heard that retris can beat the ** out of a ishkur, but I haven't seen solid evidence of a retri beating the crap out of a fairly well piloted plated vampkur), so adding the 11th slot that this tier of Afrigs would be bad to the balance, and adding a drone damage bonus would be even worse, so that drone HP bonus is the only viable sugestion imho, and it would make the Iskur a true drone boat, and not just a juiced-up frigate with XL drone bay. I know.. bad sugestions ---------------- Originally by:** Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.

Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.03.02 00:51:00 - [401] No, good suggestions. I like the 5% drone hp bonus for the Ishkur (yes drone damage would make it overpowered). Also adding a low slot OR extra CPU so we can run those drone modules would be OK (but not both - no stacked damage mods). The Wolf needs help - how about extra Grid (to fit 280 arty without the mapc) and a double damage bonus. That would fit in nicely with the Matari philosophy (its defense would still be swiss-cheesy).
Robstr	Posted - 2006.03.02 01:07:00 - [402] I think they should try to get bonuses that link them to thier HAC relative Jag gets a speed bonus(among grid/slot fixes) Enyo gets a 2nd DAmage bonus The Hawk gets turned into a missile ship ect.
Foulis	Posted - 2006.03.02 01:15:00 - [403] Ishkur is really based on three things. 1) Drones, 2) Tanking, 3) Nos. If you have those it shines. Now if you boost drone damage, it would pwn everything. If you boost their HP then it's a bit weak. A nos bonus would be unbalanced, so maybe a tanking bonus is in order? ---- I like pie. Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.03.02 02:30:00 - [404] Edited by: Kai Lae on 02/03/2006 02:31:25 Originally by: Grimpak Minmatar's strenghts should be their light, but high-damage ships, thus each one should be the embroyment of each of these philosophies: - Jag with a speed bonus = cool, but add a 4th med slot and a 20 or so more CPU. - Wolf could go with a change in the mass. That way it would still be slower than the jag, but would take more out of the AB/MWD (viable AC setups anyone?), and that idea of the damage bonus increase would be nice too. Jaguar is already too short on CPU, as is the wolf. These ships have the lowest CPU in the assault frig class, along with the amarr AF. The Jaguar needs to have the optimal bonus modified to falloff, a mid slot added and 30-40 CPU added to make up for the deficiency. The wolf needs a tracking bonus because artilleries track like crap, and against fast moving frig targets it's noticable. It also needs more CPU as well (10ish?). Originally by: Grimpak Amarrians are armour and laser kings, altho the Khanid have been in New Caldari for too long so their designs have weird mixes: - Vengeance: adding a tanking bonus is a nice idea, but don't forget khanid are caldari lovers so give a 4th med to it. Also swap the shield and armour values like it was made with the Sacrilege. - Retribution: should be "teh ubar laz0r platform", so give it a bit more grid, cpu, make that 5th high a turret slot aswell and a tracking bonus. Mobile Turret Platform FTW! The vengeance suffers from the problem that it and the sacrlidge has (and the devs have noted) - this khanid thing is a bit overdone. It's still an amarr ship and that means lasers and armor tank. That's why it should get the punisher's resist bonus, and also a additional low slot (for more tankage), as well as having the shield and armor amounts redone so that you have more armor than shields. You've failed however to address the big problem with this ship and that is extremely poor damage - the optimal bonus should be shelved and replaced with small energy turret damage. As for the retribution, 5 turrets might be nice but 4 turrets and a additional mid slot is likely better. Turret ROF would also be interesting but tracking is more likely. Originally by: Grimpak Caldari: Rail, missiles and ECM while having strong shields, so let's make those ships like that eh? - Harpy: it's good as it is, but maybe adding a shield resist bonus is a bit too much. Maybe a plain "+5% shield hitpoints per level" bonus? It wouldn't screw the ship too much, and it wouldn't make it too overpowered afaik? - Hawk: ugly baby of the caldari Those bonus and changes you said are the ones that should be made. Also add a 5th med, keep the shield boosting bonus and increase the shield hp to 860, and say hello to the baby raven Harpy - if it's a mini-eagle, might as well have the same bonuses, so sheild resists. As for the hawk, totally redo it as a missile chucking AF in the cerberus mode.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.03.02 02:34:00 - [405] Originally by: Grimpak Gallente: they already have the most all-round Afrigs in EVE, so it will be hard to put extra stuff in them without tearing apart the ballance between races. So how about: - Enyo: +5 more grid, and a tanking bonus. I'm a firm believer that Enyo should be a heavy weight of the Afrig world, designed to at least cripple ships from bigger classes (talking about cruisers here), but not overperforming in anti-frig duty. - Ishkur: tri-horned green devil that summons his minions from hell. Hands down, is one of the most versatile ships ingame, and (rather) undisputable king in frig warfare. (heard that retris can beat the **** out of a ishkur, but I haven't seen solid evidence of a retri beating the crap out of a fairly well piloted plated vampkur), so adding the 11th slot that this tier of Afrigs would be bad to the balance, and adding a drone damage bonus would be even worse, so that drone HP bonus is the only viable sugestion imho, and it would make the Iskur a true drone boat, and not just a juiced-up frigate with XL drone bay. I know.. bad sugestions Enyo could go the brutix route and get a bonus to armor repair per level. I'd like to add a bonus to MWD to the ishkur, and change optimal bonus to falloff. This ship is nearly always used at close range with nos/drones/some guns and this would help this.
Robstr	Posted - 2006.03.02 03:04:00 - [406] Edited by: Robstr on 02/03/2006 03:09:29 Originally by: Kai Lae As for the retribution, 5 turrets might be nice but 4 turrets and a additional mid slot is likely better. Turret ROF would also be interesting but tracking is more likely. It already has 11 slots, so you mean moving a high to a mid right? Falling in line with the Zealot, that is essentialy it's older brother, I think it could have a second damage bonus. I think the Vengance should get the armor resistance bonus or the Sac. The Ishkur needs something that doesn't effect it's firepower or tanking abilities directly, both coudl easily overpower it. I think the Ishtars drone control range bonus fits that bill.
Xio2	Posted - 2006.03.02 03:34:00 - [407] Originally by: TomB It's being looked at for a post-Blood patch; we will also use this chance to balance them out a little by giving the craps a better bonus than the anti-craps. Hawk needs better angility, should also have 3-4 missile hp's and your pic looks like Anakin Skywalker post lava. but seriouly, at least thanks for the reply ---{--@ -------------- now this is the way a sig should be Xio2
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.03.02 05:00:00 - [408] Originally by: Robstr Edited by: Robstr on 02/03/2006 03:09:29 Originally by: Kai Lae As for the retribution, 5 turrets might be nice but 4 turrets and a additional mid slot is likely better. Turret ROF would also be interesting but tracking is more likely. It already has 11 slots, so you mean moving a high to a mid right? Yes.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.02 10:43:00 - [409] Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: Grimpak Amarrians are armour and laser kings, altho the Khanid have been in New Caldari for too long so their designs have weird mixes: - Vengeance: adding a tanking bonus is a nice idea, but don't forget khanid are caldari lovers so give a 4th med to it. Also swap the shield and armour values like it was made with the Sacrilege. - Retribution: should be "teh ubar laz0r platform", so give it a bit more grid, cpu, make that 5th high a turret slot aswell and a tracking bonus. Mobile Turret Platform FTW! The vengeance suffers from the problem that it and the sacrlidge has (and the devs have noted) - this khanid thing is a bit overdone. It's still an amarr ship and that means lasers and armor tank. That's why it should get the punisher's resist bonus, and also a additional low slot (for more tankage), as well as having the shield and armor amounts redone so that you have more armor than shields. You've failed however to address the big problem with this ship and that is extremely poor damage - the optimal bonus should be shelved and replaced with small energy turret damage. As for the retribution, 5 turrets might be nice but 4 turrets and a additional mid slot is likely better. Turret ROF would also be interesting but tracking is more likely. the reason why Vengeance would gain an extra med it's because it would give a nice role to the ship, making her in an even better heavy tackler. I'm not talking about damage here. as for the Retrubution, don't you think that a 4/2/5 slot setup would be too... "standart"? Think out of the box. 5/1/5 slot setup with 5 turrets would make him in a powerfull frigate relying solely in lasers and tanking, wich is the traditional amarrian war philosophy. as for the other stuff, a resist bonus in the harpy would make it a tad overpowered, and I still think that the minmatar frigs should go both ways, in terms of gun choice. Afterall, minmatar are suposed to be a versatile race. ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Damien Vox	Posted - 2006.03.02 22:17:00 - [410] I'll agree with a few above posters. Give the AF's the dmg bonuses that are inline with what they do and give the Inty's the bonuses for scrams/webs. Assault Frigs have no true niche and with the HP being up'd on all ships they lost even more ground. Most AF's can't put out enough damage (the wolf struggles in this sometimes as well even though it can do absurd damage) to be useful in a fight, especially when I would guess that about three, maybe four, cannot sustain a tank and fit proper weaponry. I know that good set-ups have been found for tight grid AF's, Minmatar mainly here since both are tight for grid and CPU, but it would be darn nice to look at my wolf when it has a full rack of 280 II's fitted and see a somewhat decent tank as well. If you can't make that viable for Minmatar AF's then at least make it so that we have a chance in combat when we fit our 280 II's to do damage enough to put us on part with the AF's that tank and do long lasting combat, in otherwordds up our damage to compensate for our lacking ability to tank. Do I think that is the answer? No, hardly. I look forward to what the dev's have planned though and hopefully we'll see balance given to the AF's and the Inty's put in their proper position as well.

Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.03 23:55:00 - [411] weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bump ______________________________________________ Please do not discuss actions taken by forum moderators, even in your sig. By the way, I love you and want to have your babies --Jorauk
Weirda	Posted - 2006.03.04 00:06:00 - [412] Edited by: Weirda on 04/03/2006 00:07:25 weirda really don't think that it is as complex and need complete redesign and rebalance with interceptor as grimpack say. weirda stated in first post, and still believe it is this simple: they are lacking a 4th bonus. other t2 ship have 4 bonus. the more t2 ship there are, the more they fall behind. by the proper application of a 4th bonus on each ship, and the addition of a slot on 3 of the 4 missing slot ship (ishkur doesn't need another slot) they will be more balanced in the grand scheme of thing and their roles a bit more defined. the ships getting extra slot need more cpu/grid accordingly. they could all probably use a bit more cap and that is that. EDIT - oh and make Hawk missile boat! as with everyone else - these are just personal opinion, but the more complex this discussion get, the less likely the fact that they are simply lacking these SIMPLE thing will get addressed. please God (DEVS) just say SOMETHING! haven't this thread gotten ANYONE attention?! bless you sarmaul for keeping hope... guess that is a strong matari quality! __ Weirda Assault Ship deserve a 4th Bonus and More!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.04 00:09:00 - [413] I believe tomb has said the less crap assault frigs will be rebalenced with the not-so-crap ones in the next "non-bug-fix patch". of course, I'm not going to stop bumping this thread until it's sorted :) ______________________________________________ Please do not discuss actions taken by forum moderators, even in your sig. By the way, I love you and want to have your babies --Jorauk
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.03.04 05:54:00 - [414] Edited by: Kai Lae on 04/03/2006 05:54:20 Originally by: Grimpak the reason why Vengeance would gain an extra med it's because it would give a nice role to the ship, making her in an even better heavy tackler. I'm not talking about damage here. as for the Retrubution, don't you think that a 4/2/5 slot setup would be too... "standart"? Think out of the box. 5/1/5 slot setup with 5 turrets would make him in a powerfull frigate relying solely in lasers and tanking, wich is the traditional amarrian war philosophy. as for the other stuff, a resist bonus in the harpy would make it a tad overpowered, and I still think that the minmatar frigs should go both ways, in terms of gun choice. Afterall, minmatar are suposed to be a versatile race. The niche of the assault frigate is the ability to put firepower on the target with an exceptional tank for a frigate sized ship. The reason that the vengeance is considered to be a poor ship is it's inability to do the first, and unexceptional ability to do the second. A redesign of this ship cannot be done without addressing the damage issue. When it comes down to it the optimal bonus really isn't that vital, and therefore replacement with damage is one that makes sense. As for the slot issue, when you look at the assault frigates as a group of ships you will find that they have the most mid or low slots on the area they tank off of. This is because it assists with the general purpose of the ships in this class. Therefore, the following proposal for a mk 2 vengeance seems to be the most ideal one that I have seen: 4 high slots, 3 mid slots, 4 low slots Bonuses: 10% cap reduction to small energy turret use, 5% armor resists per level, 5% cap recharge per level, 5%, small energy turret damage per level. Set armor and shield to be armor higher than shields, say 800 armor and 513 shields. Set this up with some pulse lasers, a microwarp, and you've got a potentially dangerous close range killer. The additional low slot can be used for extra tanking, a heat sink II, etc. As for the retribution, the many of the setups being used already leave a high slot empty due to grid reasons, and the lack of a second mid makes this ship useful only in the PvE enviroment or when working in groups. Adding the mid would enable it to be used outside of these areas. It still would be the only AF with 5 low slots, making it unique. As for shield resists on the harpy, the eagle then would have the exact same bonuses and it doesn't seem overpowered. However the simple fact is that all of these changes would need extensive testing on the test server to find out for sure, here's hoping that CCP does just that.
Damien Vox	Posted - 2006.03.04 05:56:00 - [415] Originally by: Weirda Edited by: Weirda on 04/03/2006 00:07:25 weirda really don't think that it is as complex and need complete redesign and rebalance with interceptor as grimpack say. weirda stated in first post, and still believe it is this simple: they are lacking a 4th bonus. other t2 ship have 4 bonus. the more t2 ship there are, the more they fall behind. by the proper application of a 4th bonus on each ship, and the addition of a slot on 3 of the 4 missing slot ship (ishkur doesn't need another slot) they will be more balanced in the grand scheme of thing and their roles a bit more defined. the ships getting extra slot need more cpu/grid accordingly. they could all probably use a bit more cap and that is that. EDIT - oh and make Hawk missile boat! as with everyone else - these are just personal opinion, but the more complex this discussion get, the less likely the fact that they are simply lacking these SIMPLE thing will get addressed. please God (DEVS) just say SOMETHING! haven't this thread gotten ANYONE attention?! bless you sarmaul for keeping hope... guess that is a strong matari quality! So long as they up the CPU/PG on the AF's that need it that aren't getting slots as well weirda I'd be okay with that. Maybe a complete revamp isn't needed, but they do at least need to give the AF's a roll because right now Inty's do the role that AF's are supposed to do too well.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.04 12:07:00 - [416] Originally by: Kai Lae As for the retribution, the many of the setups being used already leave a high slot empty due to grid reasons, and the lack of a second mid makes this ship useful only in the PvE enviroment or when working in groups. Adding the mid would enable it to be used outside of these areas. It still would be the only AF with 5 low slots, making it unique. the changes I said for the retri would be a 5/1/5 slot setup with 5 turrets (+1 turret) + tracking bonus + increase of grid and cpu. Said that a few pages ago ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Corey Grim	Posted - 2006.03.05 22:50:00 - [417] Grrrrrrr... /me wants to hear straight answers not some noncrappy crappy BullSh*it. it has spoked up A LOT recently and i want answers ok more seriously all i want to know that CCP has noticed the problem and is going to do something about these issues soon (TM) {VIDEO}No Mattter The Cost.
Foulis	Posted - 2006.03.06 03:35:00 - [418] Tomb said personally that the AFs would be looked at for the next content patch. So just hold on a bit longer and we can see what the devs think will be the best choice for balance. ---- I <3 Taranis Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
Erik Pathfinder	Posted - 2006.03.06 03:39:00 - [419] I just want to see the Hawk changed into the Kestrel hull and given more launcher hard-points plus changed, missile-relevant boni. Doesn't make sense NOT to use the kestrel hull for a missile AF. ---------------
Foulis	Posted - 2006.03.06 04:00:00 - [420] Originally by: Erik Pathfinder I just want to see the Hawk changed into the Kestrel hull and given more launcher hard-points plus changed, missile-relevant boni. Doesn't make sense NOT to use the kestrel hull for a missile AF. Yes it does, the caldari assault frigates are upgraded merlins. Plain and simple. If you want a t2 kestrel, you have one that fires CRUISE MISSLES, that's alot cooler than a light missle af. ---- I <3 Taranis Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies

Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2006.03.06 04:24:00 - [421] Originally by: Foulis Originally by: Erik Pathfinder I just want to see the Hawk changed into the Kestrel hull and given more launcher hard-points plus changed, missile-relevant boni. Doesn't make sense NOT to use the kestrel hull for a missile AF. Yes it does, the caldari assault frigates are upgraded merlins. Plain and simple. If you want a t2 kestrel, you have one that fires CRUISE MISSLES, that's alot cooler than a light missle af. Nah, shake it up a little. Merlin should be 4 high slots but with 3x turret 1x launcher. That segues nicely into a Harpy. Hawk should be derived from the Kestrel and have 4 launcher points. It just makes more sense that the Kestrel would spawn a tech 2 light missile boat and a tech 2 cruise missile boat.
Foulis	Posted - 2006.03.06 04:40:00 - [422] Originally by: Cade Morrigan Originally by: Foulis Originally by: Erik Pathfinder I just want to see the Hawk changed into the Kestrel hull and given more launcher hard-points plus changed, missile-relevant boni. Doesn't make sense NOT to use the kestrel hull for a missile AF. Yes it does, the caldari assault frigates are upgraded merlins. Plain and simple. If you want a t2 kestrel, you have one that fires CRUISE MISSLES, that's alot cooler than a light missle af. Nah, shake it up a little. Merlin should be 4 high slots but with 3x turret 1x launcher. That segues nicely into a Harpy. Hawk should be derived from the Kestrel and have 4 launcher points. It just makes more sense that the Kestrel would spawn a tech 2 light missile boat and a tech 2 cruise missile boat. But that won't happen, it would require changing fundamental t1 ships to satisfy a t2 upgrade of it. Also, it would mean looking at the basis of every other AF. Why should everyone else only get 1 type of ship upgraded, why not two like the caldari? It's just not feasible. ---- I <3 Taranis Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
Robstr	Posted - 2006.03.06 06:19:00 - [423] I wouldn't minde seeing more AF hulls in general A tristan AF would be pimp,
Corey Grim	Posted - 2006.03.07 09:13:00 - [424] Originally by: Foulis Originally by: Cade Morrigan Originally by: Foulis Originally by: Erik Pathfinder I just want to see the Hawk changed into the Kestrel hull and given more launcher hard-points plus changed, missile-relevant boni. Doesn't make sense NOT to use the kestrel hull for a missile AF. Yes it does, the caldari assault frigates are upgraded merlins. Plain and simple. If you want a t2 kestrel, you have one that fires CRUISE MISSLES, that's alot cooler than a light missle af. Nah, shake it up a little. Merlin should be 4 high slots but with 3x turret 1x launcher. That segues nicely into a Harpy. Hawk should be derived from the Kestrel and have 4 launcher points. It just makes more sense that the Kestrel would spawn a tech 2 light missile boat and a tech 2 cruise missile boat. But that won't happen, it would require changing fundamental t1 ships to satisfy a t2 upgrade of it. Also, it would mean looking at the basis of every other AF. Why should everyone else only get 1 type of ship upgraded, why not two like the caldari? It's just not feasible. Agreed and i dont think it would be good idea to change any existing AF hulls, coz then everyone wants to see their own personal favorite T1 frig to turn AF¦s... {VIDEO}No Mattter The Cost.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.03.09 03:25:00 - [425] Edited by: Spartan III on 09/03/2006 03:26:38 Originally by: TomB It's being looked at for a post-Blood patch; we will also use this chance to balance them out a little by giving the craps a better bonus than the anti-craps. [Edit] ******************** Wolven Elite Guard is recruiting - join and get ready for some awsome PvP fights and your chance to kick some BoB butt! [red]OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2006.03.09 10:09:00 - [426] Assault frigates need to be much faster in general. Most of them are heavier than destroyers FFS. There's really no reason for them to be so much slower than regular frigates. HACs aren't any slower than cruisers many of them are even faster ( I think the deimos is an exception). The Jaguar, for instance, says in it's description that it is the fastest assault class vessel in existance. To me that would include HACs, so it should at least be faster than the Vaga. ________________ ~Phelan Lore Your isk has become my isk, by way of my actions...
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.09 14:53:00 - [427] Originally by: Phelan Lore Assault frigates need to be much faster in general. Most of them are heavier than destroyers FFS. There's really no reason for them to be so much slower than regular frigates. HACs aren't any slower than cruisers many of them are even faster ( I think the deimos is an exception). The Jaguar, for instance, says in it's description that it is the fastest assault class vessel in existance. To me that would include HACs, so it should at least be faster than the Vaga. making Afrigs faster would make interceptors redundant. ...at least that's what I think the devs thought. ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Damien Vox	Posted - 2006.03.09 19:24:00 - [428] Originally by: Phelan Lore Assault frigates need to be much faster in general. Most of them are heavier than destroyers FFS. There's really no reason for them to be so much slower than regular frigates. HACs aren't any slower than cruisers many of them are even faster ( I think the deimos is an exception). The Jaguar, for instance, says in it's description that it is the fastest assault class vessel in existance. To me that would include HACs, so it should at least be faster than the Vaga. Vaga's aren't in the same ship class as the Jaguar, the vaga is a Heavy Assault ship, not an Assault ship. Should it move faster? Yes, but that's what minmatar do, move fast and hit hard (at least that is what we are 'supposed' to do).
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.09 19:32:00 - [429] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 09/03/2006 19:32:26 Originally by: MrCue I always hated the ceptors getting any weapon based bonuses. less cap for scram & mwd, better range for scrams & webs, better lock time. Ceptors should do one thing, tackle. I would GLADLY sacrafice all my weapon slots for some of the above bonuses. Sure. You want to eliminate them from fleets, we KNOW. Stilletos would be seen a LOT more if tackling in a ceptor wasn't often an expensive form of suicide. Your proposed ceptors would ALL be lower damage than T1 frigates and uutterly unable to actually fight ANYTHING, and they would still die in moments to nos and prescision cruise. Unless you're going to cut their base price down to, say, 2 mil then all you'll acheve is their virtual elimination outside fast scouts. A T1 frigate which can do nearly the same job and costs 250k to the 6 mil of a ceptor WILL be used a lot more. Unless there is a wholesale nerf of the ability of larger ships to hit frigates...which I feel is opening a while NEW can of worms, and will lead to another year+ of imbalance. The current system is NOT grossly out of line. Period. AF's are fine, in general. They are mis-used by a lot of players who try and use them solo. This often dosn't work so well, but does NOT mean that they are not HIGHLY useful. AF's as a class do NOT need boosting. They are fleet defence and pack ships. If they get a fourth bonus, then they need to lose slots and fitting. And no, Craps = ceptors, Anti-Craps = AF. Ceptors are the blade, AF the shield. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.03.10 00:22:00 - [430] Well Maya - you are the first voice of dissent in this entire thread. I respect your right to an opinion. I would however ask you to explain why you feel AFs donÆt need a boost. Do you disagree that these ships got shafted with the 25% armor hp increase. Do you in fact fly frigs often - and specifically after RMR? Don't you think they compare badly with the new reworked t1 frigs?

Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.10 01:30:00 - [431] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/03/2006 01:31:12 I'm hardly the first voice of dissent. I was not and am not in favour of the 25% "boost". I fly frigs all the time, inties and AF. I know HOW to use an AF, and very effectively. And very differently from an interceptor. Using an AF 1v1 is NOT as designed. Period. Furthermore, I am not saying that are not issues with specific AF. But the class as a whole is allready VERY good at what it does (And this only really morphed into "they all need a boost" thread late). Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Antic	Posted - 2006.03.10 01:54:00 - [432] Edited by: Antic on 10/03/2006 01:58:57 ah, and yet again you claim to know what ship classes are designed for in eve Maya. You do not work for CCP, you have not been involved in the gamedesign of eve nor in the planning for the future of eve. Instead its your OPINION. Thats different from claiming its a fact using strong words like "ment to be" "period" and so on. For the others, Maya has been frequenting other threads were interceptors have been mentioned and defended the role of the interceptor with tooth and nail against any threat to it. The anti missile debate comes to mind. And as you may have noticed, she did not speak up constructively in this thread untill someone put fourth the opinion that interceptors should be made more like tacklers and less like high speed damage dealers due to that making AFs second rate. She is a good player that know how to fly her frigates yes. And as all good players she has learned to use the tools given to her the best way she can, and thus fear change.¦Just because good players finds a role for a ship dosnt mean that is the intended role for it. Any ship, no matter how crap can be fitted into a niche, so thats not the problem, the problem rather is how large that niche is compared to the rest. And as many people pointed out in this thread AFs do need help compared to other ships its class. Her opinion should be respected as much as anyone of us writing here, but no more. Take what she writes with a nip of salt because its highly biased.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.03.10 02:13:00 - [433] Edited by: Weirda on 10/03/2006 02:14:40 yes maya - they are effective, but lacking. as many say about many other ship - they are good, can be good, etc... but there is no doubt that they are lacking. they are lacking a 4th bonus that ALL other t2 ship have. many (most) are lacking much (if any) advantage over the mk2 stats that t1 frigate were given as for how to fly AS... please do not insult weirda. not to mention that you concept of them not being 1v1 ship is completely false (unless you are flying against chicke** pilots that refuse to engage). if anything it is a 1v2 or even 1v3 ship... so don't give weirda that crap. and whether or not everyone realize this... fitting any sort of propulsion mod on you AS for pvp (with the exception of mwd nosKur) really gimp it limited fittings and niche strengths... fine though - go on believe that being an ***** in every thread == being right about something, and you opinion on almost everthing will continue to be as despised and ignored by almost everyone as it currently is. but do not come into this thread where people have been constructively (for the most part) waxing on what may make them not specific 'boosted' but 'more fitting of their role' - and tow the same party line that you tow in every thread because regurgitating the same point everywhere you go still don't make you any more right or knowing then anyone else. back on topic... so tomB... what it gonna be? __ Weirda Assault Ship deserve a 4th Bonus and More!
Damien Vox	Posted - 2006.03.10 03:40:00 - [434] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 09/03/2006 19:32:26 Originally by: MrCue I always hated the ceptors getting any weapon based bonuses. less cap for scram & mwd, better range for scrams & webs, better lock time. Ceptors should do one thing, tackle. I would GLADLY sacrafice all my weapon slots for some of the above bonuses. Sure. You want to eliminate them from fleets, we KNOW. Stilletos would be seen a LOT more if tackling in a ceptor wasn't often an expensive form of suicide. Your proposed ceptors would ALL be lower damage than T1 frigates and uutterly unable to actually fight ANYTHING, and they would still die in moments to nos and prescision cruise. Unless you're going to cut their base price down to, say, 2 mil then all you'll acheve is their virtual elimination outside fast scouts. A T1 frigate which can do nearly the same job and costs 250k to the 6 mil of a ceptor WILL be used a lot more. Unless there is a wholesale nerf of the ability of larger ships to hit frigates...which I feel is opening a while NEW can of worms, and will lead to another year+ of imbalance. The current system is NOT grossly out of line. Period. AF's are fine, in general. They are mis-used by a lot of players who try and use them solo. This often dosn't work so well, but does NOT mean that they are not HIGHLY useful. AF's as a class do NOT need boosting. They are fleet defence and pack ships. If they get a fourth bonus, then they need to lose slots and fitting. And no, Craps = ceptors, Anti-Craps = AF. Ceptors are the blade, AF the shield. Not sure what you've been smokin' but AF's need some serious work. Wolf/Jag need a boost in powergrid/cpu and the Jag needs another mid slot to fill its role better. Whatever your thinking behind losing the slots and gaining a bonus I will say this, your wrong. Every Tech 2 ship has four bonuses, the AF's do not. Would you want to sacrifice slots on the HAC's because it has four bonuses? Or Tech 2 BC's? What about Inty's? I don't undestand your logic behind it at all. You evaded proving your points and left them wide open to interpretation, never a good thing because it makes you look horrible.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.03.10 03:49:00 - [435] The statement that AF need nothing can be disproven by a simple market volume check. Check the amount of harpies/retributions/wolves sold vs hawks/vengeances/jaguars. The reason for the difference is that the first group is better than the second group, therefore there is far less demand. Say what you want but this is a fact. Why should the non gallente races have 1 "good" AF and 1 "bad" one, while gallente gets 2 good ones?
Antic	Posted - 2006.03.10 14:15:00 - [436] Originally by: Kai Lae The statement that AF need nothing can be disproven by a simple market volume check. Check the amount of harpies/retributions/wolves sold vs hawks/vengeances/jaguars. The reason for the difference is that the first group is better than the second group, therefore there is far less demand. Say what you want but this is a fact. Why should the non gallente races have 1 "good" AF and 1 "bad" one, while gallente gets 2 good ones? Exactly. Also another point is to take into account the setups you are forced to use on some AFs to be competetive. Take for example the need for Gistii shieldboosters on the harpy for it to be competetive in many areas. Those cost 60 mill and you can not balance a ship around faction modules. If it needs this one, then something must be wrong with balance. Theres other examples of the same out there.
Captain Merkin	Posted - 2006.03.10 15:34:00 - [437] I am suprised that we have had no further dev feedback on this thread for a while. Kudos to Wierda and a few others for keeping up the good work. Very sound arguments for the most part and an issue I really would like to see worked on soon. Still cant wait to have a wolf fitted out with a full wrack of 280mm and a viable set up that does not involve an offline armour rep or mapc. Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981. The Kamikaze pilot
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.03.10 16:04:00 - [438] I know something is wrong because I feel no more safe in a wolf than I do in a rifter. I leave it to the frig specialists to come up with an idea why that is and what should be brought up. I don't get that feeling when flying a HAC over its t1 lil' brother. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Antic	Posted - 2006.03.10 16:10:00 - [439] Edited by: Antic on 10/03/2006 16:10:19 Originally by: Captain Merkin I am suprised that we have had no further dev feedback on this thread for a while. Kudos to Wierda and a few others for keeping up the good work. Very sound arguments for the most part and an issue I really would like to see worked on soon. Still cant wait to have a wolf fitted out with a full wrack of 280mm and a viable set up that does not involve an offline armour rep or mapc. there was sort of a response in this thread. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=303003&page=1#14 I hope they take all or most of our concerns to heart.
Nadec Ascand	Posted - 2006.03.10 16:21:00 - [440] atm i dont feel like if af need a boost, they good as they are, maybe the worst ones need a bit love like giving a bit more drone bay to ishkur. but nothing dratic as 4 bonus to thoose frigs. As for the harpy nothing to do with it its perfect same for the second gallente as (i dont fly anyother so dont have a clue) OMG our war have been hijack -eris What 0_o LMAO Nadec 4TW - Vanamonde Here start a new WAR => X - Wrangler

Zysco	Posted - 2006.03.10 16:34:00 - [441] Hehe I was waiting for maya to get into this thread as soon as they started discussing removing inty bonuses. <3 maya, defender of inties. callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back
Arashi Miike	Posted - 2006.03.10 17:42:00 - [442] Interceptors, it seems, are fine. While I havent been flying them terribly long, they perform functionally as you would expect a ship of that class to perform. One thing that I would hate to see would be the devs turning interceptors into tackle-only ships. Yes, they're good for tackling, but I really dont think that's what they are designed for, and I would be highly surprised if the only thing the devs created interceptors for was tackling. Besides, saying "X ship should only be good at Y, and suck at everything else" really limits player freedom, and last time I checked, that was a bad thing. However, Assault Ships do need some work, especially the "second fiddle" assault ships that nobody uses, and particularly the Amarr AFs, which are pretty bad comparitively. If nobody uses a particular ship because another ship in it's class is just flat-out better in pretty much every way there is something wrong with that ship. (Of course, one could apply this to certain Interceptors as well, particularly the Crow vs. Raptor...but that's a whole other issue) "I should have been a pair of ragged claws/ scuttling across the floors of silent seas."
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.03.10 19:17:00 - [443] Originally by: Maya Rkell I was not and am not in favour of the 25% "boost". You are funny - just because you disagreed with it doesnÆt mean it didnÆt happen. Originally by: Maya Rkell I know HOW to use an AF, and very effectively. And very differently from an interceptor. OK I get your point: You are a Kung-Fu Genius AF pilot in personally donÆt need better ships. Nosses have tracking problems when you fly an AF. You outmaneuver medium drones. Precision missiles bounce right off. And you break cruiser tanks from outside web range real easy while doing all of the above. Well you know - lets not balance these ships around your personal abilities. And yes inties are different - this tread is about AFs. We just compared damage bonuses. Originally by: Maya Rkell Using an AF 1v1 is NOT as designed. Period. Moot point. Even the most extreme suggestions in this thread would not make AFs solo pvp machines. Frigs are gang ships. No one was suggesting otherwise.
4 LOM	Posted - 2006.03.10 19:24:00 - [444] I have not read this whole thread... just saw it today. but yes please oh please give the hawk 4 missile hardpoints, i am caldari and have 7M sp in missiles and 2M in gunnery (small hybrid spec level 4) but my other gun skills are ****ty as hell, and i cant justify training them so i can fly assault frigs. caldari has a missile boat in every other class (except destroyers? WTF rails should not be caldari's primarmy weapon missiles and EW should be, but there is the flycatcher tech 2 variant) anyways having one of the 2 caldari assult frigs be a missile boat would be so nice and actually fit the race.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.03.10 19:31:00 - [445] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 10/03/2006 19:35:28 Originally by: Nadec Ascand atm i dont feel like if af need a boost, they good as they are, maybe the worst ones need a bit love like giving a bit more drone bay to ishkur. but nothing dratic as 4 bonus to thoose frigs. Ishkur is probably the most versatile (due to good slot layout and drone bay), one of the most damaging, and one of the best tanks (not that it really matter, but whatever) amongst the 8 AF. It certainly doesn't need a boost to its drone bay, just a "barely more than cosmetic" falloff bonus or something relatively weak. On the other hand vengeance, jaguar and hawk are barely useful... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Foulis	Posted - 2006.03.10 22:41:00 - [446] Originally by: 4 LOM except destroyers? WTF rails should not be caldari's primarmy weapon missiles and EW should be The reason the caldari get a rail boat destroyer is because 8 launchers would basically break everything ever invented. ---- I <3 Taranis Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.10 23:02:00 - [447] Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 10/03/2006 19:59:18 Originally by: Nadec Ascand atm i dont feel like if af need a boost, they good as they are, maybe the worst ones need a bit love like giving a bit more drone bay to ishkur. but nothing dratic as 4 bonus to thoose frigs. Ishkur is probably the most versatile (due to good slot layout and drone bay), one of the most damaging, and one of the best tanks (not that it really matter, but whatever) amongst the 8 AF. It certainly doesn't need a boost to its drone bay, just a "barely more than cosmetic" falloff bonus or something relatively weak. On the other hand vengeance, jaguar and hawk are barely useful... Edit: as for removing all the damage bonuses of all interceptors, if it ever happen it's going to be fun running around in a rifter... the only thing that can catch you won't be able to beat you, and the rest... well, won't catch you [:/]. Anyway, long range crusader can do without any damage bonus, and will use an heatsink if it can drop a cap relay with the new proposed bonuses. And maxed skill artillery claw will do 40 dps and tackle for 1 point... Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. actually, lowering all the damage bonus to the simple +25% <insert racial weapon here> would be more efective and not that big of a harsh nerf. ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.10 23:13:00 - [448] You'd also be lowering ceptor base cost by 2/3, right? Because otherwise making them no more damaging than a T1 frigate is a HUGE nerf to the primary role of an interceptor. SOME AF's need attention. NOT all of them. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.03.10 23:57:00 - [449] Originally by: Grimpak actually, lowering all the damage bonus to the simple +25% <insert racial weapon here> would be more efective and not that big of a harsh nerf. Well, they don't need nerfing, some of them need to be made less versatile. It's wrong (because of the versatility) to use the same setup to catch and kill frigates with success, and to tackle bigger ships with equal success. That doesn't mean that all interceptors have to lose their "additional" damage bonus (20% for crow, taranis, claw... 1.5/1.25-1=.2) as there's a need for frigs able to catch and kill other frigs. That's a role that you can't really give to assault frigates since they can't catch other frigates, being so slow. You can't make them significantly faster (though a bit more speed wouldn't hurt at all) because precisely they'd become the new versatile interceptors. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.11 00:12:00 - [450] Naughty Boy, sized-based scramblers in other words? Meh, had thought better of you. (Any other "removal of versatility" will cripple them in an increasingly HIGHLY interceptor-adverse Eve) Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command

Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.03.11 00:27:00 - [451] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 11/03/2006 00:39:37 Originally by: Maya Rkell Any other "removal of versatility" will cripple them in an increasingly HIGHLY interceptor-adverse Eve But that also works the other way around, it was argued that interceptors do too much damage and that's how stuffs like nosferatus and precision junk are justified. To decrease the versatility of some interceptors actually make sense if the environment is changed (else, i'd really wonder how it would be justified). And, I think damage dealing interceptors are fine as long as they aren't as good at tackling as their low damage counterpart (claw VS stiletto would be fine, taranis VS ares isn't). Edit: Originally by: Maya Rkell sized-based scramblers in other words? No, not at all. There was that proposal of giving tackling bonus to some interceptors (like, half of them) and that's what I though made some sense, as long as every and all interceptors aren't forced into that narrow role. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.11 02:10:00 - [452] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/03/2006 02:11:28 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/03/2006 23:20:29 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/03/2006 23:19:00 You'd also be lowering ceptor base cost by 2/3, right? Because otherwise making them no more damaging than a T1 frigate is a HUGE nerf to the primary role of an interceptor. SOME AF's need attention. NOT all of them. Zippy Pinno, well, you're sadly mistaken in every single particular. THAT'S funny. Yes, and equally it's clear that the negative effects of that 25% have hit frigates hard. And so why do you want to change AF? If Nos are a problem (and they are), change Nos. If medium drones are a problem (and I don't think they are), then change medium drones. Presision missiles are broken? Change THEM. (and they're so broken it makes baby jesus cry). And if you can't break a cruise's tank...why SHOULD you, 1v1? That's not their role, and you know it. It's a straw man argument. Fix the PROBLEM, not the symptoms (which apply to ALL frigates, ffs) And MOST of the suggestions are aimed at making them better 1v1. Period. point taken. guess that means that there's no way to have interballance between Afrigs and intys without stripping the roles from the intys. ...how about this then. keeping the base 25% dmg. splitting the intys in 2 classes: jammers: +2% dmg per inty level + fixed bonus of +2 str to warp jammers/scramblers anti-frig: +3% dmg per inty level + a fixed bonus of 50% increased web range or smth. ..plus revamping the whole slot thing in the ships. jammers would have more meds but less weapons and faster, and anti-frig have less meds, and a tiny bit more armoured. ..not a full nerf, and the intys wold not be that much versatile, but they would still be better than T1 frigs at their role. Call it middle term But we are derrailing Weirda's thread. We better keep out the inty-Afrig thing from here ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Damien Vox	Posted - 2006.03.11 04:32:00 - [453] How is removing the 10% damage bonus on a Claw destroying the purpose of Inty's? Interceptors aren't supposed to be high damage dealing ships, they're meant to intercept and hold other ships in place, i.e. webs, scrams. I fail to see how a 10% damage bonus, or any damage bonus for that matter is relevant to the role of the interceptor and how removing it would ruin their role. Giving them bonuses to web range/web cap usage, scram range/cap usage, etc would be far better suited to them and actually help the AF's roles rather then killing the AF by making it useless. If you can tell me how damage bonuses are relevant to Interceptors and not Assault Frigates (by the way how exactly is this supposed to be a fleet defense ship? You didn't go into detail to back that statement up) and do so convincingly I'll think over switching sides. Until then I'll stick to what I know best, my Wolf and Jaguar lack while the Claw and Stiletto fill the role of Interceptor and Assault Frigate all too well.
Uuve Savisaalo	Posted - 2006.03.11 04:43:00 - [454] Maya Rkel - this is getting a little too familiar by now. Though some of the points you've made make more sense than others (heaven knows), I hate to point out the simple fact that interceptor balance does not seem like quite so relevant an issue in the era of precision cruise missiles and the various other considerably more blatant causes for concern. If you simply must cry murder and pitch yourself in support of something, I'd suggest fiddling with the real issues. That which is one of the few relatively 'not broke' things in eve thus far quite obviously doesn't need fixing.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.03.11 07:10:00 - [455] Originally by: Maya Rkell Naughty Boy, sized-based scramblers in other words? Meh, had thought better of you. (Any other "removal of versatility" will cripple them in an increasingly HIGHLY interceptor-adverse Eve) Your personal agenda smacks of every ship in EVE being balanced 'around' interceptors. Might as well shut your mouth now. We see through your bs. Its over. AFs need fixing. Interceptors do to. See you in 'that' thread. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.03.11 19:35:00 - [456] The thread is not about interceptors...interceptors need nothing. They as a class are an effective design. They work as combat ships and tacklers. There are 2 intys that need to be looked at (Raptor, Ares) because of grid issues and highslot assignment (in the case of the raptor), but overall they need little else. The same can't be said about assault frigates, especially when you look at the hawk, vengeance, and jaguar. A great bit of info was released recently by CCP on the number of T2 ships in existance which I think is quite informative. Keep in mind that the build times for a interceptor is less than an AF, but not hugely so when looking at these numbers: Interceptors Crow 14937 Taranis 11797 Crusader 8737 Claw 8680 Malediction 7354 Stiletto 6404 Raptor 6231 Ares 6087 Assault Frigates Harpy 9192 Enyo 9003 Wolf 7830 Retribution 7094 Ishkur 6212 Hawk 5613 Vengeance 5038 Jaguar 4360 Summary: Total numbers of interceptors in existance: 70827. Total numbers of Assault frigates in existance: 54342. Conclusions from data: Interceptors are the more popular ship. This in part has to do with the fun factor of huge speed, but also IMO the inty is seen as a better choice of combat ship in general as well. Also informative is that the absolute worst interceptor by numbers, the ares, nearly outnumbers what is considered by most to be the best AF in overall terms by many, the ishkur. Also, by numbers, the amount of hawks/vengeances/jaguars is less than the number of ares in service, and there are double the numbers of harpies in service than jaguars. This again indicates that the ships on the low end of the scale are the least popular - most likely because they are considered to be the least useful. In short AF need a boost and especially the vengenace/hawk/jaguar (though, it also shows that the ares and raptor need help as well, considering that there are double the numbers of other type of inty that race has in service available).
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.11 19:48:00 - [457] Interceptors are also useful to carebears for rapid movement in Empire, AF's are not. Interceptors also make good scouts, AF's do not. AF's are a more specalised ship than Interceptors. AF's are more costly than Interceptors. I'd worry if it was the other way round! You are drawing the number out to your own conclusions without even TRYING to consider the other possible meanings, and indeed you have managed to make that painfully obvious. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.11 19:49:00 - [458] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/03/2006 19:54:37 Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Maya Rkell Naughty Boy, sized-based scramblers in other words? Meh, had thought better of you. (Any other "removal of versatility" will cripple them in an increasingly HIGHLY interceptor-adverse Eve) Your personal agenda smacks of every ship in EVE being balanced 'around' interceptors. Might as well shut your mouth now. We see through your bs. Its over. AFs need fixing. Interceptors do to. See you in 'that' thread. Your personal agenda is to smacktalk me without any evidence. My ACTUAL agenda is called "balance". Which passes you by. Naughty Boy, I completely disagree. Prescision missiles and nos are clearly unbalance dand need fixing with zero reference to interceptors. It's meaningless to look at overall frigate balance, I believe, until they have been fixed and we have then tested the resulting balance. And I oppose ANY move towards tackling based bonuses because it gives a wedge to the whiners who want to kill interceptors are a useful class. Grimpak, No, it's perfectly possible to balance them. AF's can take their firepower to range, Inties cannot (generalising, here). AF's can tak far better. 1v1, an Inty MAY win. 2v2, the AF's have a crushing advantage. That's balanced. Why would a tackling inty (and webs are part of that) need ANY form of damage bonus, or weapon bonus? They don't. It cripples them. There is no NEED for the sort of wholesale change you are proposing, it damages a class which is not currently overpowered in any way, beyond the imaginations of certain people that think (erroniously) than interceptors do not destroy things, both IRL and in Eve. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.11 20:02:00 - [459] Originally by: Damien Vox How is removing the 10% damage bonus on a Claw destroying the purpose of Inty's? Interceptors aren't supposed to be high damage dealing ships, they're meant to intercept and hold other ships in place, i.e. webs, scrams. I fail to see how a 10% damage bonus, or any damage bonus for that matter is relevant to the role of the interceptor and how removing it would ruin their role. Giving them bonuses to web range/web cap usage, scram range/cap usage, etc would be far better suited to them and actually help the AF's roles rather then killing the AF by making it useless. If you can tell me how damage bonuses are relevant to Interceptors and not Assault Frigates (by the way how exactly is this supposed to be a fleet defense ship? You didn't go into detail to back that statement up) and do so convincingly I'll think over switching sides. Until then I'll stick to what I know best, my Wolf and Jaguar lack while the Claw and Stiletto fill the role of Interceptor and Assault Frigate all too well. Because InterCEPTORS, BOTH in real life and in Eve, DESTROY things. InterDICTORS are what BLOCK things. This is really, really simple. Sigh. Remove the damage bonus from the claw, and you have a worthless ship with 2 mids. TWO MIDS. There is nothing else it can even dream of doing. The Stilleto is the odd ship out, and if anything needs changing, IT is the ship. Change one, not seven. Ignorance is no excuse, given how many times this has been posted. A Claw cannot be used for Fleet defence. If you think it can even compete with the Wolf on such, you are sadly, sadly mistaken. The Jag could use looking at, sure, but that is entirely different from a boost to the AF class as a whole - which is something else you are deliberately ignoring. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.03.11 20:43:00 - [460] Originally by: Maya Rkell I completely disagree. Prescision missiles and nos are clearly unbalance dand need fixing with zero reference to interceptors. No doubt, but there's still something that those mods (amongst others) made very clear. It made very clear that more versatility for every ship wasn't the way to go, and that it make sense to force setups to be a bit more specialized (as more versatility for every ships doesn't solve balancing issues amongst them). It's nothing specific to a class or another. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.11 20:47:00 - [461] Sorry, the only thing those modules made clear to me is that CCP make mistakes balancing. I for one don't want Fighter,Mage,Cleric,Rogue Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.03.11 21:15:00 - [462] Originally by: Maya Rkell I for one don't want Fighter,Mage,Cleric,Rogue I don't want either, and that's all the deal, versatility when fitting a ship is not a problem at all and if anything should be increased. The problem is all what you can do with some setups. I've got absolutely no problem with anti-frigate interceptor fittings as they are. Anyway, i think i'll stop the hijack, I didn't really mean to start that discussion here. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.11 21:22:00 - [463] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/03/2006 21:22:35 Originally by: Maya Rkell Grimpak, No, it's perfectly possible to balance them. AF's can take their firepower to range, Inties cannot (generalising, here). AF's can tak far better. 1v1, an Inty MAY win. 2v2, the AF's have a crushing advantage. That's balanced. Why would a tackling inty (and webs are part of that) need ANY form of damage bonus, or weapon bonus? They don't. It cripples them. There is no NEED for the sort of wholesale change you are proposing, it damages a class which is not currently overpowered in any way, beyond the imaginations of certain people that think (erroniously) than interceptors do not destroy things, both IRL and in Eve. Belive me that I agree with you, but as you said: Quote: AF's are a more specalised ship than Interceptors. That's the whole problem. Ok true that the HAC's also lack some sort of more specialized role, but if we look at the T2 ships we can see a pattern that goes for more specialization in a single area. AF's are tanked frigates with (supposedly) very high firepower while lacking the speed of the frigates; Coverts are great ships to spy arround/intel gathering wich lack firepower of any kind; Stealth bombers are rather good surprise attack ships but lack survivability; Interdictors are movement interdiction ships with good anti-frigate abilities, BUT very low survivability; Logistics are healers (bad example of role specialization if you ask me tho); Recons are Ewar powerboats; Force Recons are stealth Ewar powerboats; Fleet Command ships are gang support ships; Deep Space transports are fat armoured haulers; Blockade Runners are light and speedy haulers. That leaves the Field command (HAC with superior firepower/armour? ugh ) , Heavy assault ships (altho some can argue that HAC's are supposedly mobile firepower platforms) and interceptors with a less specialized role in the whole T2 business. That's why I say to give more specialized roles to the inty in my previous post. Something like "Specialized Anti-frigate/Anti-movement/deep strike ship". Atm the interceptor is, imho, classed as an "anti-everything" ship. Solo, an inty can do everything that a T1 frigate, or even AF, gang, do, but much better. and we better stop the hijacking here and create a thread of our own ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.11 21:32:00 - [464] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=307366 Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.03.11 23:29:00 - [465] Originally by: TomB Blasters, Phoon, AF's and more. It has started, once it's in testing you will be notified with a shiny sticky post in this forum channel. Woot - we can start testing in a week or two. lets ignore the irrelevant arguments of late and help by testing and constructive feedback.
Foulis	Posted - 2006.03.11 23:48:00 - [466] Originally by: Grimpak Something like "Specialized Anti-frigate/Anti-movement/deep strike ship". I would personally love that, it's what I dream of using my Taranis for. Right now I _can_ use it for intercepting enemy ships in fleet battles. But why wouldn't I just use a Destroyer, or an Eris, or a Harpy? There are better ships for what seems to be its role. I don't mind it having a different role, I just don't want it to share one with better ships. ---- I <3 Taranis Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
Destroyer Draxx	Posted - 2006.03.13 07:00:00 - [467] Since ur agenda is balancing as u say, if Nosf gets nerfed whats the BS defence against small targets? Precision missiles unbalanced? Try to fly a raven with 6 launchers filled with precision missiles. Speed is 40m/s possibly even lower. Im sick of ppl that think they should be able to tackle-kill-do what ever without fitting specifically for that n then shout "nerf". This is not privateer btw, too bad i know, but still its not. So Far So Good....So What
Zippy Pinno	Posted - 2006.03.13 16:45:00 - [468] No - this thread is not about Nosses or T2 missiles.
Aba Tor	Posted - 2006.03.13 16:53:00 - [469] Originally by: Zippy Pinno No - this thread is not about Nosses or T2 missiles. Hello Nope is about "AS need 4 bonus + Jag, Vengeance, Hawk as Missile AS" :)) Really the Caldari need a missile AF... what better choice then the Hawk... Regards ... A wise man never plays TAG with a RINO
Tanya Kovacs	Posted - 2006.03.13 17:33:00 - [470] Originally by: TomB It's being looked at for a post-Blood patch; we will also use this chance to balance them out a little by giving the craps a better bonus than the anti-craps. Oh and PLEASE turn the Hawk into a rocketship. Come on.. Caldari are the ones with the missiles, each shipclass has a missile-dedicated ship (Kestrel, Caracal, Cerberus, Manticore, Crow, Raven), but AF is one nice gunboat and a hm... unliked child with strange specs. -- All postings reflects just my personal opinion.

Foulis	Posted - 2006.04.11 04:44:00 - [471] Edited by: Foulis on 11/04/2006 04:44:21 Originally by: Grimpak jammers: +2% dmg per inty level + fixed bonus of +2 str to warp jammers/scramblers Yes, please, I want my counts on hands and feet 16 max scramble strangth stilleto Edit: Damn, I gotta stop looking into weirdas sig, this thread died a month ago... ---- Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
Weirda	Posted - 2006.05.24 15:53:00 - [472] 'le cry __ NOS AS WCS Idea #223579
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.24 15:55:00 - [473] Originally by: Weirda 'le cry don't take it personally weirda, after our initial enthusiasm with tux it seems CCP still hates all minmatar equally click here for a seizure
voidvim	Posted - 2006.06.14 14:23:00 - [474] after looking on the test server it seems that their are chnages to assult frigates, if people would like to check out the changes on the test server and update their opinions as these posts are mostly 6 months now. oh and the jag is geting a 4th mid slot seems devs sort of agree with weirda (three cheers for Weirda).
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.14 15:25:00 - [475] Originally by: voidvim after looking on the test server it seems that their are chnages to assult frigates, if people would like to check out the changes on the test server and update their opinions as these posts are mostly 6 months now. oh and the jag is geting a 4th mid slot seems devs sort of agree with weirda (three cheers for Weirda). aye this is very nice! still waiting for 4th bonus though, as even the 'best' AS are lacking without it - problem is now (with bonus change on some of them) that as 4th bonus some of the ship will simply need their old bonus back. will have to wait and see if need to keep thread around so can change it to 'take away all t2 ship 4th bonus so that they are like the Assault Ship because Maya Rykell think they ok!' __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Damien Vox	Posted - 2006.06.14 19:20:00 - [476] I have a question about the Wolf's new bonus changes if anyone knows, or if Tux will chime in. Do you know if the Wolf's new 10% damage bonus that is going to be replacing the 10% optimal is going to affect the 5% damage bonus that you get as well? Will that mean the Optimal Bonus now becomes 5% or do we get the double bonus? I wouldn't mind either but I just wanted to know. As for the Jag, its about time. The added CPU/PG are welcome as well because frankly I was wondering if they'd add any at all considering how poor both Minmatar AF's are in CPU/PG and are a pain to fit. The wolf could use some more CPU as well but we know how long we'll have to wait for that.
Lock out	Posted - 2006.06.14 19:30:00 - [477] Originally by: Damien Vox Do you know if the Wolf's new 10% damage bonus that is going to be replacing the 10% optimal is going to affect the 5% damage bonus that you get as well? Will that mean the Optimal Bonus now becomes 5% or do we get the double bonus? I wouldn't mind either but I just wanted to know. This is how it's meant to be listed: Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile Damage bonus, 15% EM and 10% Thermal Resistance bonus to Shield and Armor per level Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile Turret damage and 10% falloff per level On SiSi it does currently say 10% damage per level, but that is apparently a mistake (as Tux says in the sticky thread up top.)
Damien Vox	Posted - 2006.06.14 19:49:00 - [478] Alright, thanks for the clarification Lock Out
Hydrian Alante	Posted - 2006.06.14 19:56:00 - [479] Just a short question: What¦s the deal giving the Taranis a 10% dmg Bonus and the Enyo just 5% ? It makes absolutly no sense if I compare the designated roles of both ships.
Captain Palomares	Posted - 2006.06.18 11:51:00 - [480] The Hawk is a sweet peace of work but you must truely must have the skills to fly this baby. If you don't have what it takes to fly it then stay out of it .



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