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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1404
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Posted - 2013.08.02 05:30:00 -
[181] - Quote
Roime wrote:Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:Gallente ships are tipically close range brawling fits that required MWD to get in range.
Armor Reppers are CAP intensive
MWD Nerfs total cap capacity, thus cap recharge rate.
Gallente ships are the only ships to get an armor repper bonus (Incursus, BC, Command Ships and Hyperion)
Am I the only one that sees the problem? Yes, you are. Rest of us fit cap boosters. So it is fine that the "sustained" tanking system requires 3 modules and 2 rigs to do what Burst tanking can do with 2 modules and 2 rigs? Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Zappity
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
230
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 05:43:00 -
[182] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:Gallente ships are tipically close range brawling fits that required MWD to get in range.
Armor Reppers are CAP intensive
MWD Nerfs total cap capacity, thus cap recharge rate.
Gallente ships are the only ships to get an armor repper bonus (Incursus, BC, Command Ships and Hyperion)
Am I the only one that sees the problem? Yes, you are. Rest of us fit cap boosters. So it is fine that the "sustained" tanking system requires 3 modules and 2 rigs to do what Burst tanking can do with 2 modules and 2 rigs?
Um, yes. Sustained tanking is, well, sustained whereas burst runs out pretty fast. Sustained should be harder to fit and/or run. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1404
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 05:51:00 -
[183] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:Gallente ships are tipically close range brawling fits that required MWD to get in range.
Armor Reppers are CAP intensive
MWD Nerfs total cap capacity, thus cap recharge rate.
Gallente ships are the only ships to get an armor repper bonus (Incursus, BC, Command Ships and Hyperion)
Am I the only one that sees the problem? Yes, you are. Rest of us fit cap boosters. So it is fine that the "sustained" tanking system requires 3 modules and 2 rigs to do what Burst tanking can do with 2 modules and 2 rigs? Um, yes. Sustained tanking is, well, sustained whereas burst runs out pretty fast. Sustained should be harder to fit and/or run. Shield boosting will sustain longer than armor repairing in this case. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Job Valador
Super Moose Defence Force
160
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Posted - 2013.08.02 06:52:00 -
[184] - Quote
I want your children fozzie "The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement." |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Pandorum Invictus
300
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 07:48:00 -
[185] - Quote
as i have posted many times before:
armor needs to be changed to a 3 second cycle time. with levels, change the amount repped. drop the repped amount and cap drain per cycle, but speed it up.
we dont need more rep here or there, just balance them out so armor doesnt have to wait 15 seconds to get their armor. its not balanced that shield gets theirs immediately and then again every 3 seconds and we have to wait so long.
i dont care if u wanna leave it at the end of the cycle, but it needs to cycle quicker. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
998
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 08:20:00 -
[186] - Quote
I am concerned about the impact of this change on frigates - buffer-tanking isn't in a great place as is (unless you run with a HG Slave set) and this change will only make matters worse.
Where is the problem that you are trying to fix by giving small armor repairers a 15% boost? Is the dual-rep Incursus, Vengeance, ... too weak as is or are you just trying to make these ships unkillable? Do you want active tank to be the only option on brawling frigates? |
Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance
73
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Posted - 2013.08.02 08:27:00 -
[187] - Quote
Dear Foz et all,
Please break the Mindset that Rep bonuses have to be race specific. Rep bonuses, while giving a nice boost to very few specific situations/roles, take away from the general usage of the ship they're plastered to. There are a multitude of problems associated with a rep bonus ship.
-The Rep bonus is a bonus to a utility module. To utilize the bonus you have to give up a Mid(shield) or low(armor) slot. -The Bonused Rep module is not strong enough alone to be effective. This means you have to dedicate additional slots in the same rack to gain viability. -The additional slots required to gain viability compete with other modules that increase your effectiveness. Armor Rep competes with Weapon/Hull/Prop Upgrades. Shield Boost competes with Propulsion/Tackle/Ewar for slots. Both of them require capacitor upgrades that can compete with either mid, low or rig slots. -The Rep bonus steers your ship's fitting towards a specific tanking type. -The Rep bonus ships are less effective for Logistic supported Fleets. -Because of the previous statement, some races lack viable ship classes to compose a fleet with completely. (i.e. Gallante combat BCs)
To effectively utilize a Rep Bonus a ship must give up too much of it's Utility. Not utilizing the Bonus Wastes basically half the time you spent training your ship skill. Gallente and Minmatar are plagued with these problem ships.
Either spread rep bonuses and resist bonuses around throughout the different race ships or completely replace it with something else. Even from a realism perspective it doesn't make sense. Gallente and Minmatar are gimped in Large fleet battles vs the Caldari and Amarr because Caldari and Amarr have much better Fleet comp ships.
Resist bonuses stand alone perfectly effective. A resist bonus will passively increase local and remote rep effectiveness. You can't unfit a resist bonus. Rep bonuses require supplement. A rep bonus will not affect any other attribute/module. They require additional resist to function properly as well as capacitor modules/rigs. You can unfit a rep bonus and lose 50% of why you trained your ship skill beyond level 1.
There is no Balance for Rep VS Resist. There is no Fix for Rep vs Resist. Change them or spread them out between the races. I personally believe in Rig bonuses instead of module bonuses as i mentioned here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=262880&find=unread Rigs are already very well balanced and functional. They would require seemingly minimal effort to prime for a change like this.
You guys are already in this mindset.
CCP Fozzie wrote: All the command ships have two unbonused highslots that can be used for two gang links, or as general utility highslots. The tension between the two free highslots and the three simultaneous link role bonus is intentional, giving people options to make tradeoffs.
All ships have 2 or 3 rig slots. If you bonus 2 or 3 rig lines (armor/shield/hybrids/missiles/etc) per ship instead of just the specific modules with specific bonuses, then there's your "giving people options to make tradeoffs." |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
47
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 08:52:00 -
[188] - Quote
I am bit concerned about the reduction of Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control effectiveness reduction as it is not being projected into the local repper changes. This module actually helped a lot be be cap stable.
Will you consider factoring reduction of cap usage into the modules a well. (I may suggest 0% for small, 5% for medium and 10% for large repair modules capacitor reduction) |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 09:46:00 -
[189] - Quote
Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:Gallente ships are the only ships to get an armor repper bonus (Incursus, BC, Command Ships and Hyperion)
Paladin
Note that this ship was also designed to use most cap intensive weapons: Tachs. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3218
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 10:46:00 -
[190] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Roime wrote:Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:Gallente ships are tipically close range brawling fits that required MWD to get in range.
Armor Reppers are CAP intensive
MWD Nerfs total cap capacity, thus cap recharge rate.
Gallente ships are the only ships to get an armor repper bonus (Incursus, BC, Command Ships and Hyperion)
Am I the only one that sees the problem? Yes, you are. Rest of us fit cap boosters. So it is fine that the "sustained" tanking system requires 3 modules and 2 rigs to do what Burst tanking can do with 2 modules and 2 rigs?
Yeah, more slots = more tank.
I've been very vocally supporting armour tank fixes, and tbh this buff addresses the main issue, and does it in style. RAH+MAAR fits are going to be viable, and it's fantastic for solo and small gang. Same for shield boosters, this balancing act quite simply provides us with more options.
I'm very satisfied with the HAC 2nd version, CS and link changes and look forward to more good fights.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
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Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
9457
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:08:00 -
[191] - Quote
ofukyes. You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad. |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
9457
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:15:00 -
[192] - Quote
Local armor reps need more rep amount, otherwise +1 internets for Fozzie. You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
518
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:20:00 -
[193] - Quote
Overall these are good changes, but I feel a bit meh about including AAR and not ASB. Imo there is too much hype around how ASB are overpowered or anything, while in reality using them is both dangerous (ASB continuing without charges I'm talking to you !) and cargohold omfgwtf consuming. Also, they are only slightly better than shield extenders, for a noticeable difference in CPU/PW usage. G££ <= Me |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:26:00 -
[194] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Overall these are good changes, but I feel a bit meh about including AAR and not ASB. Imo there is too much hype around how ASB are overpowered or anything, while in reality using them is both dangerous (ASB continuing without charges I'm talking to you !) and cargohold omfgwtf consuming. Also, they are only slightly better than shield extenders, for a noticeable difference in CPU/PW usage.
Look at it this way:
- You can only fit one AAR - You can fit as many ASBs as you like |
Perihelion Olenard
174
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:26:00 -
[195] - Quote
Good to see that active armor tanking may be reliable again, if we don't come across one of the so many people with neuts. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1038
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:28:00 -
[196] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:I am concerned about the impact of this change on frigates - buffer-tanking isn't in a good place as is (unless you run with a HG Slave set) and this change will only make matters worse.
Where is the problem that you are trying to fix by giving small armor repairers a 15% boost? Is the dual-rep Incursus, Vengeance, ... too weak as is or are you just trying to make these ships unkillable? Do you want active tank to be the only option on brawling frigates?
edit: Single MSE buffer-tanked frigates are already simply not viable. In a 400mm plated frigate with slave set I can barely outlast dual ASB setups, without slave set I would lose such fights 7 times out of 10. Contrary to public belief the vast majority of FW players does not have Tengu or Legion at hand. Compensating for a nerf to fleet boosters by giving an increase to all active reps will shift the balance of power even further away from buffer setups.
Given that legion links makes armor rep mods = god mode buffing the armor reps just makes eve as bad as ever. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mr Doctor
Los Polos Hermanos. Happy Cartel
38
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:36:00 -
[197] - Quote
ASBs need to be limited to 1 per ship, a buff for them is insane and stupid.
edit: ok..... I was replying to someone pages back |
IkeIV
Perkone Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:39:00 -
[198] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Sabrina Scatterbrain wrote:CCP once again fixing what is not broken. How about ya'll devote all resources to recoding the entire game into something other than single threaded hell? You don't want me rewriting the server code.
If that's what it would take hell yeah
It's been said above me few times , anyway WTS Thanatos , you just shipped it to hell it was already half dead but now it's gonna be a ratting ship or a 5 th choice ship |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
6925
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:46:00 -
[199] - Quote
This change is smart and appropriate. I do wonder why Deadspace/Officer boosters aren't being buffed a little bit though to bring them in line with cost/efficiency? Is there any reason I've overlooked as to why they shouldn't be? |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:51:00 -
[200] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote:This change is smart and appropriate. I do wonder why Deadspace/Officer boosters aren't being buffed a little bit though to bring them in line with cost/efficiency? Is there any reason I've overlooked as to why they shouldn't be?
Gist C/B/A-Types. |
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1038
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:57:00 -
[201] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Since we are reducing the power level of defensive gang links in Odyssey 1.1, we are planning to take the opportunity to also tweak local repairing some more. We will be boosting the rep amount of most local repair modules, such that someone with gang links after the patch will still rep less, but someone without gang links will rep more than they do now.
Won't this boost widen the gap between those who boost with links and those who boost without?
Please show us how many dps will a single sar2 incursus will rep now with this local rep bonus and without no ogbs. Also show cap stability/time.
Then show us how many dps a single sar2 incursus will rep with this new rep bonus with full amarr ogbs. Again also show cap.
I might be wrong but it seems you are still trying to buff ogbs.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
6925
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 11:58:00 -
[202] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote:This change is smart and appropriate. I do wonder why Deadspace/Officer boosters aren't being buffed a little bit though to bring them in line with cost/efficiency? Is there any reason I've overlooked as to why they shouldn't be? Gist C/B/A-Types.
So? They are expensive, if you pay the money, you get the increase. This just means that these shield boosters won't be purchased as much. |
Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
28
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Posted - 2013.08.02 12:03:00 -
[203] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote:This change is smart and appropriate. I do wonder why Deadspace/Officer boosters aren't being buffed a little bit though to bring them in line with cost/efficiency? Is there any reason I've overlooked as to why they shouldn't be? Gist C/B/A-Types. So? They are expensive, if you pay the money, you get the increase. This just means that these shield boosters won't be purchased as much.
Gist ones will still be good, Pith C and B will be kinda rubbish |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
122
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 12:10:00 -
[204] - Quote
Sounds good at a quick glance. The different between T2 reps and deadspace is insane at the moment, providing faction correctly sits in the middle (ie faction not overlapping c-type deadspace) then it should be great :)
Looking forward to some numbers. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1064
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 12:21:00 -
[205] - Quote
Roime wrote:CHRISTMAS CAME EARLY THIS YEAR
**** YEAH
And Sergeant, shield scrubs don't have RAH
Indeed but what's the efficiency of RAH knowing you're taking even more cap and increasing a single resist overtime?
Again it's situational and nice for small roaming gangs etc because chances you have to fight equal numbers over 10ships without logistics are close to null.
The moment you have logistics 1x 1600plate taking no cap and an extra resist plating is superior (resists always superior the moment you have logistics)
So lets put things in order:
400 cap use for T2 rep or Cap use+nanites for meh reps unless OH and still eat cap cap use for RAH cap use for hardeners Edit to add: simple fact of shooting decent dps ammo also takes large chunks of your cap
Your 3 mid slot armor ship better not have to fight equal numbers after 5 unless it's a Proteus brick Legion or CS same race. I'm not saying they will not succeed but just saying it's a silly micromanagement game in the game bringing no real benefit compared to ASB's or SB setups.
When was the last time you saw an armor tanker fitting A-Type medium or large reps? -those are extremely rare compared to A-Type SB pvp setups, and there's a reason for this, SB's are completely OP.
Shields are about boosting and armor overtime I'm ok of that old argument, however when shield ships push the same amounts of EHP better resist profile and reps efficiency it's no match. Look at the amount of shield Vigilants fitted with ASB's and so one for other ships, try Double XL ASB domi some day, it's a pure dps brute with a dirty tank better have some friends to take it out before it cleans the field. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
raawe
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 12:36:00 -
[206] - Quote
Armor got little buff too, maybe it should be 20% to be even more in line with shield rep. All in all good changes |
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
63
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 12:50:00 -
[207] - Quote
Cearain wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
Since we are reducing the power level of defensive gang links in Odyssey 1.1, we are planning to take the opportunity to also tweak local repairing some more. We will be boosting the rep amount of most local repair modules, such that someone with gang links after the patch will still rep less, but someone without gang links will rep more than they do now.
Won't this boost widen the gap between those who boost with links and those who boost without? Please show us how many dps will a single sar2 incursus will rep now with this local rep bonus and without no ogbs. Also show cap stability/time. Then show us how many dps a single sar2 incursus will rep with this new rep bonus with full amarr ogbs. Again also show cap. I might be wrong but it seems you are still trying to buff ogbs.
No, you're wrong here. Someone with OGB will still be better than someone without. That's a simple true fact and unavoidable until the end of OGB.
However, that gap is closing. Links are getting nerfs in the tanking department while straight up local repping gets buffs. As Fozzie states, this reduces a fully boosted local tank but increases a solo tank. It also, by way of the link nerfs, reduces logistics and buffer effectiveness on a relative and actual scale. |
Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1038
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 13:31:00 -
[208] - Quote
Kenneth Skybound wrote:Cearain wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
Since we are reducing the power level of defensive gang links in Odyssey 1.1, we are planning to take the opportunity to also tweak local repairing some more. We will be boosting the rep amount of most local repair modules, such that someone with gang links after the patch will still rep less, but someone without gang links will rep more than they do now.
Won't this boost widen the gap between those who boost with links and those who boost without? Please show us how many dps will a single sar2 incursus will rep now with this local rep bonus and without no ogbs. Also show cap stability/time. Then show us how many dps a single sar2 incursus will rep with this new rep bonus with full amarr ogbs. Again also show cap. I might be wrong but it seems you are still trying to buff ogbs. No, you're wrong here. Someone with OGB will still be better than someone without. That's a simple true fact and unavoidable until the end of OGB. However, that gap is closing. Links are getting nerfs in the tanking department while straight up local repping gets buffs. As Fozzie states, this reduces a fully boosted local tank but increases a solo tank. It also, by way of the link nerfs, reduces logistics and buffer effectiveness on a relative and actual scale.
You are falling for the ccp ogb alt shell game.
Buffing heavy missiles would buff the drake. Why? Because the drake is bonused to heavy missiles.
Gang links give bonus to local reps. Therefore giving bonuses to local reps boosts gang links.
Its time to post the numbers. This like every boost to active tanking is a ninja boost to ogb alts.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1038
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 13:35:00 -
[209] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:I am concerned about the impact of this change on frigates - buffer-tanking isn't in a good place as is (unless you run with a HG Slave set) and this change will only make matters worse.
Where is the problem that you are trying to fix by giving small armor repairers a 15% boost? Is the dual-rep Incursus, Vengeance, ... too weak as is or are you just trying to make these ships unkillable? Do you want active tank to be the only option on brawling frigates?
edit: Single MSE buffer-tanked frigates are already simply not viable. In a 400mm plated frigate with slave set I can barely outlast dual ASB setups, without slave set I would lose such fights 7 times out of 10. Contrary to public belief the vast majority of FW players does not have Tengu or Legion at hand. Compensating for a nerf to fleet boosters by giving an increase to all active reps will shift the balance of power even further away from buffer setups. Go out and actually try frigate pvp - the majority of enemies will already be active tanked and most of the rest run entirely tankless setups (kiting destroyers, dampening condors, ...). Try flying a buffer-tanked frigate without 3b in implants and report the results, there's a reason why almost nobody is flying buffer tank as is.
If you had to buy a second account to use slaves, ccp would care about your post. But active tanks are the ones that work well with the ogb alts so they will get the boosts. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Luc Chastot
Daktaklakpak.
436
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 14:04:00 -
[210] - Quote
All repair modules should be balanced individually; also, not only should their repair amount be changed, but also any other stat that is relevant to keep a distinct flavor between shields and armor.
Edit: I would rather getting a full active tank rebalance one or two months from now, even as the sole feature of a new point release. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
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