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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |

Palamon
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:13:00 -
[421] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.
Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.
...and the crowd go wild!
How about removing the single clone per station restriction too? |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
203
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:14:00 -
[422] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Zaxix wrote:It's hard to give feedback if you've limited all discussion to a non-existent skill you've already said isn't likely to change.
Nice start. Something is better than nothing. But just looking at votes in the reasonable things thread shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that significantly lowering the timer is what the community wants.
Thanks for chipping away at it though. A common suggestion for improving chess is for my side to start with two ranks of queens. This won't necessarily make the game as much better as I expect. The purpose of jump clones is to allow for a different play style during each daily play session. So once per 24 hours, allowing for an average of four to five hours play per day (because you log in immediately upon returning home from work and keep playing until bed time), means that 19 hours provides ample opportunity to switch to a new clone once every daily session. The people looking for 12 hour jump clones are clearly looking to switch between null combat and hisec training clones every day. They want everything but wish to sacrifice nothing. There are clearly sacrifices to be made for the convenience of switching playstyles every day, one of those is the restriction to live in that clone for the next 19-24 hours. Rather than reduce the clone jump timer to allow switching between training and combat implants every day, what about addressing the real issue which is remaps and attribute implants? But no, they want everything while sacrificing nothing. They are so addicted to accelerated training that taking away training implants (which would in many cases eliminate the requirement for jump clones in the first place) will be decried as anathema to the spirit of the game. Which is bunkum. Some folks just need to learn to play the game, not the mechanics. Please show me where this common Chess suggestion is. No one suggests that. You've got a couple of assumptions buried in there. Show me where it was announced that the purpose of JCs is the one you suggest (I've never seen it, but maybe you have. Link please.). Not everyone who wants this is a null combat pilot looking to get back into the training clone.
However, I agree that the attributes/implant mechanic doesn't add anything to the game and is a relic of D&D. In those sorts of games, attributes played into every roll of the dice and were therefore a critical part of the overall game design. In EVE, they're only used for training purposes, which creates a strange, needless barrier with no obvious point other than stretching out training times and generally getting in the way of things.
I also don't see what this has to do with that particular post. I'd love to see your reply to my med clone post. Also, veiled insults are unbecoming for "folks" who are usually such good posters. Bokononist
-á |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15368
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:19:00 -
[423] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.
Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.
This was rather unexpected. I will be training it and thanks. My only issue with it, is not being able to use them all in my system.  Any chance we could have more in one station? Yes, finding homes for all those boys will be an issue.  However they probably want to avoid a situation where you are able to swap clones (and more importantly implants) as easily as you would change clothes. I see your point, but the time limit they set is surely enough to remove such fears.
I do feel my request, falls into how they look at these skills being used. I simply ask to be able to utilise them in the same system and/or station. When I last had time to play, I did change clones dependant upon which implants I needed, rather than to avoid using them at all or travelling vast distances in a flash.
I will of course nip next door and suck it up for now. 
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |

Rainbow Prism Colorblind
Deep Space Equinox The Nightingales of Hades
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:21:00 -
[424] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.
Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.
Oh more clones, I am not to sure if its a good or bad thing with more clones, but yes it would help in some things. Any change have its good and bad side, lets find out what it may have on this.
Lets hope it not get to powerful of a tool. |

Raze Zindonas
Asgard. Exodus.
40
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:30:00 -
[425] - Quote
12hrs would be awesome. |

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
335
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:39:00 -
[426] - Quote
Please change it where if you are in the same station as another clone you can just swap with it.
This wouldnt count as jumping since you are already there. The jumpers will be rewarded, the lazy won't. |

Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
65
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:41:00 -
[427] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Also, the guy spending 19 hours in front of his computer complaining about how easy space pixels are could also do something else like take a shower, have some food, take a girlfriend to snack/restaurant, cinema, read a book, meet some friends, take care of his family call his parents brothers/sisters, play an instrument etc.
Well it's not really like a normal person with a job working 8-12H and happy to play his favorite space ship game to relax of his day work that now will not be stuck until late evening to give a hand to his friends and still be able to return tomorrow after work log in and return at his favorite in game stuff/
His comment has no sense but for people who lost all sense of reality and priorities. This mechanic brings absolutely nothing positive in terms of gaming experience and if they really like that much harsh stuff, finding a job and keep it would be a good place to start.
Remember people, when discussing internet spaceship pixels always, at least by implication, call your fellow conversational partner unwashed, malnourished, lonely, iliterate, socially awkward, uncaring pieces of spit without all sense of reality and priorities.
Internet spaceship pixels do not deserve anything less, butt a full barrage of insults and degradation. Don't settle for anything less capsuleers! |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1905
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:44:00 -
[428] - Quote
next: safe fittings for clones eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |

Vartan Sarkisian
Inner Visions Of Sound Mind
119
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:50:00 -
[429] - Quote
Just allow implants to be unplugged and you don't have to worry about 1 hour, 1.5 or 2 hour periods per pointless skill.
You have had your roam, you JC out to your expensive clone and then an hour later your needed for another roam... erm sorry guys, see you in 23 hours... with the ability to unplug implants you solve the issue. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die. |

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
1433
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 16:58:00 -
[430] - Quote
Why isn't the timer based on distance jumped?
Simple 2 tier system seems appropriate...
24 hours if jump is outside region 12 hour timer if jump is within region
Your welcome? http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
203
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 17:03:00 -
[431] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Zaxix: Actually, medical clones aren't quite a versatile as you make out in all area's of space... but as I originally pointed out some of the arguments presented have been excellent examples of why medical clones need to be looked a closely. They tread very close to the line of undermining more important area's of game play.
So far the only thing keeping them from becoming a serious issue is implant loss. While you dismiss this a trivial, to most players it is not. For your average player the cost involved is an issue, and wealthy players tend to keep very, very expensive implants in their clones... and are loath to give them up for a simple location change.
I apologize for my tone if you took it to be personally insulting, it was not intended to be that way. Just keep in mind that usually the people asking for changes of this nature are usually players that haven't gained enough experience with the game to look beyond the surface layer of cause and effect that ripples throughout this game.
As for specific examples... well, to be honest there are far to many to begin to list here (and my time is limited at the moment). Perhaps the simplest way to say it in the limited time and space I have is that it becomes far too easy to go on a day trip in a fully equipped clone in one corner of EVE... and then that evening hop back across the universe (again in a fully equipped clone) for a completely different activity that night.
No commitment necessary, no real planning necessary, no sacrifices made... just click a button and there you are, fully outfitted for whatever the occasion may be. That's not really challenging game play. Apology accepted! But, I'm not letting you off that easy. You haven't explained the power projection problem, or, more importantly, explained it in the context of med clone travel. If there are too many to list, just give me the two most critical.
Med clones are every bit as powerful as I think they are. When combined with jump clones, they get really versatile. Just keep one jump clone (of the now 10 we'll have available, lol) clean of implants. When you need to use med clones, jump to your clean clone before self destructing. Problem solved. Since many alliance pilots on full deployment fly without implants or with cheap implants, losing implants is not much of a barrier if the benefits gained by the quick travel are worth it. The only things I can think of that a med clone can't do that a jump clone can are jumping to clone bays and switching implant setups. I just don't see how an even lower JC timer changes the equation or is any more powerful or game breaking that what can be done with med clones. Strangely, the addition of 5 more jump clones makes JCs more powerful but no one seems put out by that. I can now setup clones in 11 different locations (10 + my current location), which could be a definite strategic advantage for prepositioning response fleet pilots.
This conversation started because I was asking for someone to show me what it is that I'm missing. I didn't really have a position. For me, I like 12 hrs because it would mean that I needn't think about the timer. Any particular series of gaming sessions I might have (short or long, weekday or weekend) would always have one JC available to me. In practice, it probably works out to once a day no matter what. (Think about it. At 12hrs, you'd need to either play once every 12 hrs or for a full 12 hrs in one session to get the benefits of a second jump.)
I am surprised no one has suggested another arrangement entirely; one that would handle several of the different uses/concerns by different groups. Change jump clones into just clones. They're on your character sheet, you can switch between them no matter where you are (you must be docked or have access to a clone bay), but there is no travel involved. Power projection issue solved. WH clone issues solved. Implant setup issues solved. Med clones become travel clones, you get one default reset point (specifics TBD; e.g .your noob station or your corp HQ) and you can travel to any corp office for a FEE with rising cost per use per day (or other time increment). ISK sink created. Existing, already-in-use med clone travel mechanic preserved AND one or two sneaky med clone use loopholes closed. Bokononist
-á |

Fyrkraag
Ganja Labs Exodus.
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 17:57:00 -
[432] - Quote
Well CCP Rise, it looks like maybe 3 people actually *read* your post.
Thanks for the changes. This will help casual players a lot.
|

Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
568
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 18:11:00 -
[433] - Quote
Even more clones? You should have reduced it to one or two instead. People should have to choose one place where they can always teleport to safely and with zero risk. . |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
203
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 18:12:00 -
[434] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Even more clones? You should have reduced it to one or two instead. People should have to choose one place where they can always teleport to safely and with zero risk. So no more med clones? Bokononist
-á |

Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
285
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 18:12:00 -
[435] - Quote
So why not just make the jump timer per jump clone instead of per character? People could have X number of jump clones, everyone with an individual jump timer on it, once per 24 hours as it used to be, but each jump in addition to that would increase the timer further.
You could use them for fast travel and for switching clones (implants).
For example Jump from amarr to my near-jita clone (amarr one has a timer now), jump from near-jita to lorentek (jita clone has a timer (24) now, amarr timer increased (to 28) and jump from lorentek to metropolis (lorentek has a timer now (24) jita increased (28) amarr increased (36) ) etc.
www.wormholefundamentals.com www.youtube.com/user/asayanami www.twitter.com/Asayanami www.facebook.com/Asayanami.Dei
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4470
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 18:12:00 -
[436] - Quote
The increase in max clones is a bit easier to swallow than a 12 hr. time because they only allow you to plan and preposition more options but they don't allow you to take advantage of those options any quicker.
Again, the options you pointed out for using jump clones and medical clones are well known... and frankly are borderline becoming an issue. I know you think of them as simply clever and effective use of existing game mechanics (which is true) but they do circumvent a great many other important game mechanics and are rapidly getting to the point where more restrictive game mechanics should be considered.
I think the root of this is a misunderstanding as to why there are a lot of people that want to restrict any game mechanic that allows quick and easy movement/trans-location within the game. It's not because we are masochists I promise you. 
Any mechanic that allows quick and easy (or instant) movement between locations is great for getting you to your primary objective, and usually erupts in a huge battle in the target strategically important system. It's huge, and concentrated, because everyone and their brother can get there in the blink of an eye.
But while it enables 1 (usually overly large) conflict, that quick and easy movement removes countless other opportunities for conflict to occur along the way. Opportunities that could result in a much wider variety of conflicts, over a much larger area, with fewer negatives associated with the battle.
More restricted movement options makes:
Organization and logistics a much more important consideration for both sides.
Opens opportunities to exploit choke points along the way to the objective system.
Makes ships/gang that can cover distance quickly far, far more valuable to both sides.
Raises the likelihood that there will be stragglers or isolated groups, allowing for a lot of smaller scale combat.
Raises the likelihood that reinforcements to a battle may have to fight there way through to that battle, resulting in small scale combat in the systems surrounding the (probably) TIDI slowed system.
... and many, many more interactions that would result in MORE conflict, as well as more variety in those conflicts, than would be generated by a system that is more supportive of simply going "click" and you're there.
These objections apply to everything from the current discussion about Jump Clone timers, to reigning in current mechanics involving Jumping of any type (Jump Bridge networks, Titan jumps, cap ship jump range in general).
Easy movement makes it easier to focus on your objectives, I'll give you that... and I understand the appeal. However restrictive movement generates endless opportunities for both sides, and generally more spontaneous game play do to unexpected situations along the way.
in the end, you end up having more fun things to do... they just often won't necessarily be exactly what you planned. 
I can also understand the point of view of someone that is (or was) in shipping. Allowing people to jump somewhere and relying on a shipping company to get their ships/equipment there for them to use is great for business. Just keep in mind that if movement keeps getting easier in EVE, eventually they won't need the shipping companies anymore. It will be so easy they will just do it themselves. As always, the trick is knowing where to draw the line... keeping in mind that the line drawn will affect a huge variety of people and play styles.
Sorry to be so wordy, but I'm hoping that this will help you to understand the mindset of people that have objections and concerns about making certain things even easier than the currently are. Again, we really aren't masochists... we just understand that the rules and restrictions of a game are actually what makes the game interesting and gives it character. To revert back to the old chess analogy in a different way, if you could move the all of the pieces in any direction you liked, as far as you liked, any time you liked... well, it wouldn't really be a game anymore. It's the rules and restrictions in place that define it and make it challenging, as well as enjoyable. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
164
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 18:36:00 -
[437] - Quote
Not really sure about the additional jump clone skill. That many jump clones really is just allowing for jump clones as methods to travel anywhere quickly. I am aware of death cloning but really you need a blank clone and it can be costly.
The real remaining problem with the jump clone mechanic is the standings requirement and this should be lowered, unnecessary grinding does not add value. I am aware of the corp services but the standing mechanic just feels like another barrier for newer players to swap out of clones they deem valuable. Positive standings or perhaps even around the 2.0,4.0 level is all that should be required. It could be a skill again but as with the timer reduction it just feels like a skill point sink.
|

Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4197
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 18:41:00 -
[438] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.
Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.
Straight question, no bull ****; do you think the current situation of power projection is in a health state for this game? . |

muhadin
Origin. Black Legion.
153
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 19:06:00 -
[439] - Quote
Rise you should allow as many clones as someone wants in a single station, you could even add a increasing cost based on the number of clones currently stored in station. Ex: If you stored more than 2 clones in a station it would charge you isk everytime you jumped to one of them from another clone in that station. like 1mil to 20mil range based on number of clones. "Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love" |

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
1437
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 19:08:00 -
[440] - Quote
there is no way to use jumping cloning for free within a station to break the game or gain an unfair travel time advantage. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4470
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 19:20:00 -
[441] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:there is no way to use jumping cloning for free within a station to break the game or gain an unfair travel time advantage. In essence you are advocating changing implants from being permanent until destroyed (a game mechanic put in place for a variety of reasons) to being completely swappable once every 19-24 hours (12 hours if some people had their way)... without any relocation being involved at all.
I think some people are beginning to see how these things can very quickly snowball out of control. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Ju0ZaS
Mentally Assured Destruction
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 20:02:00 -
[442] - Quote
Sweet. |

Gneeznow
L'Avant Garde
105
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 20:47:00 -
[443] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:edit: Based on feedback we are also going to be able to add a second skill in this patch - Advanced Infomorph Psychology - which will open up 5 more jump clone slots. This skill will be rank 5, have a bigger price-tag and will require the basic skill to be level 5 before training.
oh NOICE! fortuitous timing too I've run out of clones, 4 with mindlinks and 1 cheapo one. |

Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 22:57:00 -
[444] - Quote
just read the changes and nothing more,
if u add more clones pls add also an advanced infomorph synch skill which could bring jumpclone time down to maybe 12h, would be great.
Thx |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
216
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 00:32:00 -
[445] - Quote
I know this might not be too popular, but an isk sink based mechanic might be relevant to look into ( in addition..)?
Since we could end up with 10 Clones and Jumping every 12 hours, then a LOT of jumping will be going on..
Some sort of fair priced count down price system might be an idea.. So to insta jump the cost would be full price of a medical clone and the skill levels would simple tick down to 1% of the cost of a medical clone. This way maybe there would not even be a need for the time limit, it would simply be a sacrificed cost instead...
Personally I find it really frustrating to have to live with this management of clone jumps, instead of just having a well priced isk sink..
|

Susan Black
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 01:29:00 -
[446] - Quote
This seems like overkill to me. To introduce a skillbook for this? Why not just change the 24 hour timer to a 20 hour timer. Problem solved.  www.gamerchick.net Follow me on Twitter! @gamerchick42 |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
217
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 02:46:00 -
[447] - Quote
There is a slight irony in the whole mechanic of clone jumping. The skill swapping forces you to log in, and the clone timer kinda forces you to log out?
All these weird time sinks and barriers should really all be reconsidered a bit. If they have an actual wanted effect sure leave them in, but if not get rid of them..
Similar issues could be considered with capacity gap stoppers in container limits in planetary interaction and the one size fits all time mechanics of industry copy, research, production etc..
Many of these features seem to have aged rather poorly and could use a nice overhaul. Considering taking current state as a snapshot and then tweaking them all would be a HUGE improvement to the game in general. It would also fit very well with the idea of the winter expansion being industry and economy focused.
|

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3951
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 04:21:00 -
[448] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Faster locking time allows a clear advantage in combat over a character with slower locking time. With 2 e-war ships it often decides which ship gets to lock at all. Faster align time is crucial to in game survivability. Faster manufacturing time reduces costs and increases your production capability. Reduction in POS fuel costs reduces your expenses. All great skills to have, provide good in game advantages, provide competative advantages at certain professions and aren't there to fix a design problem.
You're basic mistake is trying to compare skills designed to provide gameplay advantages in a competitive environment to a skill, where its entire reason for existing is to address out of game convenience problems caused by short sighted design of the jump clone mechanic.
What if the base timer for jump clones was changed to 28 hours, and this skill provided a 2hr per level reduction? Would you still call the timer a short sighted design choice? Or would you see that the base time doesn't quite allow one jump per day but you can train a skill to allow one jump per day?
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Maybe the exact line between the two groups is sometimes hard to draw, but this isn't one of those times. This skill clearly falls in to the quality of life -category and is entirely needless filler, GǪ
I disagree. The timescale of clone jumping is in the same order as ME/PE research, manufacturing jobs, wardecs and corp recruitment. The advantages of jump clones over death clones are immediately obvious to anyone who regularly flies with a billion ISK worth of implants. The difference a Virtue set gives you when flying that Anathema is worth training a skill that allows you to switch to that clone tomorrow if you want to. This is absolutely about ship fitting and absolutely not about convenience and quality of life. You could just fly your mission Tengu with your probing clone, and you could fly your anathema with the heavy missile implants. There is no quality of life difference between those two situations, but there is a huge difference in the performance of those ships when you use the appropriate clone.
When I JC into the mining foreman clone, my mining fleet gets a performance increase. I can autopilot any other clone to the fleet and still do the same job. I can deth clone faster, or settle for a middle ground and use a blops bridge.
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Surely every player regardless how old their character is is potentially affected by this problem, so why not fix it for every player instead of giving every character the option to train the antidote for this particular quality of life poison?
Not everyone, only those who have and use jump clones specifically for the purpose of engaging in different play styles from day to day using the same character. It doesn't impact people who have a PvP character and switch to their mining or mission-running character when required. For some people being able to jump clone is a weekend warrior thing: ISK-making during the week, ISK burning on the weekends (or vice versa). Those people won't care to train this skill. Being able to shorten the timer is important to some people, not all people.
So the shortening of the timer is important to some people, and in those cases there is a tactical reason for switching not a quality of life case. So having the shortening of the timer as a trainable skill makes perfect sense. Just to emphasise the point, I would extend the base timer to more than 24 hours, with the skill trained to 3+ to provide a sub-24hr cooldown. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Qaidan Alenko
State War Academy Caldari State
3857
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 05:32:00 -
[449] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:edit: Based on feedback we are also going to be able to add a second skill in this patch - Advanced Infomorph Psychology - which will open up 5 more jump clone slots. This skill will be rank 5, have a bigger price-tag and will require the basic skill to be level 5 before training.
... 
Now THIS is something I have been dreaming of for quite some time...
Your babies... I can bear for you... yes?
*disappears back into the shadows of "Lurker mode"* Go ahead... Get your-áWham on!!! |

Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel Templis Dragonaors
257
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 09:54:00 -
[450] - Quote
I still say a good longer-term compromise would be to tie the length of the jump-clone timer to the distance between the clones you're jumping between (say, 4 hours for an in-station jump, 8 hours for an in-system jump, 12 hours for a jump within a constellation, etc.). I threw it into the CSM "Reasonable Things" thread, but I suspect it'd take some more sophisticated programming than the addition of a skill book or two. "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred..." - Niccolo Machiavelli-á |
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