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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
19
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:11:00 -
[91] - Quote
Meh.
Why bother with the skill? If the goal is to simply remove the pain point for players to really be able to jump once a day, just drop the time to clone jump to 19 hours and be done with it.
Here's another skill that benefits vets against noobs. Vets with nothing to train can train this, while noobs will have to weigh training a useful fitting skill etc. versus this dubious choice.
This really shouldn't be a "skill". |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
400
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:12:00 -
[92] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:You know what, this is fine as proposed. Let's not turn this into another 80-page+ discussion.
+1 - on to Marauders, Black Ops and Pirates... It's the summer. Never not a threadnaught.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
810
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:13:00 -
[93] - Quote
Lame, to small to matter. I don't care much about using clones for fast travel but I would like the ability to change out the implants in my head more easily.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Gar'sul
Alpha Lazor
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:14:00 -
[94] - Quote
Oliver Eels wrote:Eliram Kahoudi wrote:1hr per level is so meh. Something better than nothing for sure and i do appreciate that. But would be awesome to be able to lower the jump clones to 12hrs at rank 5 instead. 2 hrs per level would make it 14 hours to JC at max level. Much nicer, IMHO. Going from 24->19 hrs really isn't much of a difference.
Agree on this one !! 19 hours is no difference. |
Maru Sha
The Department of Justice
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:17:00 -
[95] - Quote
1h per level seems right to me. If someone is logging in usually at around the same time, the person can now decide what clone to use for this game session ... and do the same the next day at the same time without being pushed back with every session. I would say, mission accomplished.
I wouldn't vote for more than 1h per level. I think that is a wish of pilots who always want to fly the perfect clone in the very moment without any commitment. You can also read from the posts that some would love to skill with +5 implants and maximum output while they are logged off but also have the whatever is perfect combat / industrial clone for their other needs during the online time. I don't like that. There should be trade-offs from my point of view and decisions should have a meaning ... and not just represent an optimization path. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
826
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:21:00 -
[96] - Quote
Just remove jumpclones altogether, that'll stop this whining.
It's not as if they're actually good for the game, anyway. |
XvXTeacherVxV
Nightmare Machinery
Illusion of Solitude
25
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:21:00 -
[97] - Quote
This is a great change. People asking for more are just mice wanting milk with their cookie. It's really not a "buff" to gameplay, but more to player experience. Stop being whiners and take a gift for what it is. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
401
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:23:00 -
[98] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:This is a great change. People asking for more are just mice wanting milk with their cookie. It's really not a "buff" to gameplay, but more to player experience. Stop being whiners and take a gift for what it is. Why should there be a skill that improves quality-of-life? The base timer should just be lessened or make a skill like that have some actual game application.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day. |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1199
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Lame, to small to matter. I don't care much about using clones for fast travel but I would like the ability to change out the implants in my head more easily.
thats the main reason i jump clone is for implant change.
tbh i used to lobby for a complete change to how clones work.
i wanted player made clones
the ability to sell them on the market
the ability to install a clone vat bay in a pos
the ability to have multiple clones in a outpost/station
the ability to transport clones in a ship
at the end of the day i would like to setup a bunch of clones in my pos fully pvp fit with a bunch of pvp ships in the sma.
the biggest thing i hate about eve is having to fork out 30 million isk every time i die. Having the ability to make/transport/sell/hold more then one in a station... would be epic for the game.
make clones manufactureable using PI goods.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
2D34DLY4U
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
9
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:25:00 -
[100] - Quote
Dierdra Vaal wrote:I'm also worried that this skill will go the way learning skills went.
This is a bad idea as we are using a mechanic similar to learning skills to solve a gameplay problem. This new skill being introduced will either be meaningless (in its current state) or if you raise the hours/level in an attempt to solve the underlying problem you will create a skill that everyone will need and consequently a barrier to entry in the form of forcing everyone to spend X days training this - the issue, similar to learning skills, is that there is no trade off and no choice being made, its just something you will need to do and therefore not a good game mechanic and just another hurdle that you have to go through in order to play the game.
The problem with jump clones is related to the learning implants that are currently IMO a broken mechanic in the sense that they create a link between long term decision making (what to train) and short term risk/benefit decisions (what to risk in pvp). Implants that give you advantages in pvp are cool since you get the edge from the implants but also risk more with them, so this is working fine. Learning implants on the other hand create a barrier to pvp in the sense that in order to pvp seriously you have to forcefully gimp your ability to develop your skills in the long term, thus creating a barrier for pilots that want to pvp - it is a forced sunk cost that has to be paid for by all pvpers.
The jump clone timer change has implications in terms of travel and mobility, more so if we reduce jump clone delay to 0 (per Reasonable Suggestions vote item) - I don't see a problem with this right now as it's better to have the player jump clone around and keep playing than logoff and wait for a few hours to do whatever he wanted to do, but I am not an expert and there may be situations where this may be abused.
The problem here is the learning implants. Changing the jump clone timer is an elegant way around this problem since although we may see less learning implants being destroyed and less isk sink effect from those implants on one hand, on the other hand giving players flexibility in terms of changing implant sets on the fly may increase their overall use in the game and raise the total amount of implants of any kind being destroyed, thus having a beneficial effect on the market. This on top of allowing players to play the game more, as opposed to forcing them to logoff for hours to get things done... |
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Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
391
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:25:00 -
[101] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Longinius Spear wrote:Just wondering, why would moving it down to say every 5 hours be "too much"?
In your opinion. Because it makes it ridiculously easy to bypass the entire galaxy. Have you heard of these things called Titans, and jump bridges? Everyone in an alliance seems to have have access to plenty of these. I don't think it should really be a factor in easing the life of smaller entities; small gang/solo players.
CCP, have you looked at the actual numbers, e.g. the average play session of a character that has flown in low/nullsec after jumpcloning, and how that time period after compares to their total logged in time?
Granted this won't account for those put off by the current system, but it might show people JCing before almost every day's play. I know I have done so for periods of high activity.
Also, can you be open about how much you fear mindlinks factor in these mechanics decisions, have you considered making a shorter timer with a condition that you don't have a mindlink in perhaps? |
So'Cari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:25:00 -
[102] - Quote
-1 for the same reason offered by many others:
If you recognise that a 24-hour timer is bad game design, you should implement a direct fix rather than adding a skill which makes the flaw default with an optional fix available for a minor in-game cost. [That the relative cost is highest to newer players just compounds the problem.]
Just set the timer to 19-hours (or whatever) and go from there.
- Simpler to implement
- Simpler to adjust and/or remove based on feedback
- No more costly (as a proportion of SP) for newer players
And if after a short trial you still want to go back to 24-hour default with skill-based reduction, then you can, and nobody will complain about wasted training time or clamor for SP reimbursement.
You could even set it to 21 or 22-hours (i.e. something a little more conservative) RIGHT NOW as an experiment until Odyssey 1.1, and then make a final adjustment or add in the skill-based version when 1.1 launches. |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1200
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:26:00 -
[103] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:XvXTeacherVxV wrote:This is a great change. People asking for more are just mice wanting milk with their cookie. It's really not a "buff" to gameplay, but more to player experience. Stop being whiners and take a gift for what it is. Why should there be a skill that improves quality-of-life? The base timer should just be lessened or make a skill like that have some actual game application.
how about 10% reduction in clone jump cooldown for jump clones in same constellation.
this would give you the ability to change from pvp to pve clones twice a day if you stay in the same area. but also limits force projection jump cloning.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
Denidil
Turalyon Plus
628
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
It is a good skill, but i think 1 hour is not enough
Untrained: 24 hours
Level 1: 23
Level 2: 22
Level 3: 21
Level 4: 20
Level 5: 19
Perhaps it should be 2?
Level: 0/1/2/3/4/5
Timer: 24/22/20/18/16/14
Or maybe 3?
Level: 0/1/2/3/4/5
Timer: 24/21/18/15/12/9
I think i like the numbers of 3 - the skill makes a much bigger difference this way, is more effective. Addresses one of the CSM's "little things" items.
Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design. |
So'Cari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:34:00 -
[105] - Quote
Denidil wrote:It is a good skill, but i think 1 hour is not enough
Why do you think it's a good skill compared against just altering the default time for everyone? |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
567
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
allow multiple jump clones in the same station, no time reset for same station jumps (or make it a lot smaller), and no killing of implants because of a jump. please.
Follow me on twitter |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
234
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:40:00 -
[107] - Quote
Replace current mechanism with % of success based on time since last jump:
24 hours since last jump = 100% chance of success
12 hours since last jump = 50% chance success
0 hours since last jump = 0 % chance success
If you really want a new skill then +5% chance of jump success per level.
Failed jumps have varying consequences ranging from failure to jump as best case to implant or clone loss in worst case.
True Eve risk vs reward 
Fear God and Thread Nought |
chris1945
Ambivalence Co-operative
21
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:41:00 -
[108] - Quote
Daneel Trevize wrote:Honestly, cancel this and do it right. 5 hours isn't right, nor is it being skillpoints based for just that.
The '99 things' initative highlights that many people are happy to see a more complete solution, a separation of the teleportation potential of jump clones with their implant-saving aspect. AFAIK many are willing to have shorter JC timers if they're in the same system/station as the other clone, and understand the power projection potential problems of having the ranged jumps be more frequent. But they also shown that players don't want to be tied to yesterday's start-of-session clone choice the next day, and that's where I feel 5 hours just isn't enough.
A 10hour reduction if in the same system/station sounds much more appealing, more likely to lead to fun options to mix things up for those that have the opportunity to fly various doctrines (remember we still can't use even a fraction of our SP or wealth at once anyway).
Don't make people train or plan to train a skill for this, especially if it's likely to be changed Soon. Almost as bad a 4 racial ECCM skills as a 'fix' for ECM, only hurts the new guys & those hoping for slightly varied session start-times.
Correct.
Also please remove the annoying "kill all implants on jump bug" if you are in the same station. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
3554
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:42:00 -
[109] - Quote
So, there are already a lot of comments? But my $.02.
I work full time, and EVE on weekday evenings, and when I'm free on weekends. I usually have a chance at fleet ops in the evenings-- but if I JC back after, I have no chance to live dual carebear/PvP lives for the next day. My guess is that CCP has clocked the average play session/fleet's duration at something like 3 or 4 hours, and think that this'll give people juuust enough flexibility without making things ridiculous. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam
Tribal Band
774
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:44:00 -
[110] - Quote
From the all the complaining I can only surmise that people do not want this skill & feature implementing.
I guess they are content with a continuation of the system currently in place.
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Arec Bardwin
1030
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:46:00 -
[111] - Quote
A decent change, although a very simple one. What would be nice:
- Advanced Infomorph psychology for access to more clones.
- Tiered jumping cooldowns for system-wide clone jumps, region-wide clone jumps and universe-wide clone jumps.
- Ability to swap clones in a WH Rorqual clone vats.
Add needed skills accordingly. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15920
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 18:48:00 -
[112] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:From the all the complaining I can only surmise that people do not want this skill & feature implementing.
I guess they are content with a continuation of the system currently in place.
No. People just want them to fix the problem byGǪ you knowGǪ addressing the problem, rather than adding in a pointless one-day skill-training timesink as a half-assed band-aid to the problem.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tenchi Sal
Dust Bunnies 514
185
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:52:00 -
[113] - Quote
5 hours reduction is perfect. most players dont play 23.5/7. someone can come home for work, login, decide they want to do "this thing" today, jump clone. they'll be ready to jump back when they get home from work again the next day. great job ccp and thank you guys!!! |
Mirana Niranne
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
31
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:56:00 -
[114] - Quote
Isn't there some issue with server load where every time you undock or change ships or log in the server has to make a counting of your skills and levels to apply bonuses etc for your fittings and such? Doesn't adding another skill give the server just one more thing to keep track of?
I'm curious as to why you're not just knocking 4 or 5 hours off the JC timer rather than adding another skill to suck resources in server tracking or whatever you call it. No big deal in small systems, but in big fights or really busy systems, I'm sure the more skills people have, the more load on the server, where if I recall, this is one of the bottlenecks Team Gridlock is dealing with. |
Fifth Blade
The Nyan Cat Pirates
The Retirement Club
11
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:56:00 -
[115] - Quote
Tenchi Sal wrote:5 hours reduction is perfect. most players dont play 23.5/7. someone can come home for work, login, decide they want to do "this thing" today, jump clone. they'll be ready to jump back when they get home from work again the next day. great job ccp and thank you guys!!!
The problem with this is that if you go over by 10 minutes it throws off your jump the next day, and the next until you just have to stop using it because the timer is too limiting.
Realistically you need 2 hours / level to account for just normal variation for a lot of people. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4447
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:02:00 -
[116] - Quote
Tenchi Sal wrote:5 hours reduction is perfect. most players dont play 23.5/7. someone can come home for work, login, decide they want to do "this thing" today, jump clone. they'll be ready to jump back when they get home from work again the next day. great job ccp and thank you guys!!!
This. This is the whole point.
This is not to make it easier to hop back and forth across the galaxy multiple times in a day. The ability to rapidly trans-locate/travel is already an issue in EVE.
This is simply a way to make it easier to jump ONCE a day, without screwing yourself up when you log on the following day. it's a buffer, so that if you don't think about jumping right away you have a bit of time to play with.
If they went any further they start to distort the primary function of a jump clone. Instead of a once per day convenience the begin to become a huge tactical consideration, circumventing a great deal of the logistical game play in place.
Planning your clone jumps should still be important... and this little bit of variable buffer (depending on how much buffer you want to train for, if any) makes the mechanic more practical instead of circumventing it completely.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
74
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:06:00 -
[117] - Quote
TBH, its a good plan. I like the idea of it being a rank 1 or 2 skill. But with the proposal as it stands right now, why bother training more than skill level 2 or 3. The only thing this propsal aims to do is help prevent players getting stuck outside their regular play hours on a weekday evening.
So this is NOT the solution we have been asking for for a very long time. It's a stop gap solution for a different problem.
It seems most people agree that there is a need to prevent mobility around eve simply by Jumping between clones every 5 minutes, and that your choice of implants should matter and have consequences when you want to instantly reship to a new fleet doctrine. And it seems most people agree that Clone jumping should never be more than once in a 12 hour period. So, the simple solution to give everyone what we really want is ...
- Make this ( or an advanced variation ) a higher rank skill so that training L5 takes 30+ days
- Make this ( or an advanced variation ) give a maximum benefit of 12 hours between clone jumps at L5
WTB : An image in my signature |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
259
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:08:00 -
[118] - Quote
Please consider making it 1hr cooldown reduction per level for jumping outside of system/station and 4h12m (17.5%) reduction if clone you're jumping to is in the same system/station:
Untrained (jumping/swapping): 24h / 24h
Lv1: 23h / 19h48m
Lv2: 22h / 15h36m
Lv3: 21h / 11h24m
Lv4: 20h / 7h12m
Lv5: 19h / 3h
That will help newer player to PvP more frequently without harming training times much for their skills: you come home @19, jump into empty/pvp clone, and then @22 you'll be able to jump back to your precious +4/+5 carebear clone. Power projection is not an issue here - you'll have to travel to system/station to get reduced timer.
Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Shantetha
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:17:00 -
[119] - Quote
Daneel Trevize wrote:Honestly, cancel this and do it right. 5 hours isn't right, nor is it being skillpoints based for just that.
The '99 things' initative highlights that many people are happy to see a more complete solution, a separation of the teleportation potential of jump clones with their implant-saving aspect. AFAIK many are willing to have shorter JC timers if they're in the same system/station as the other clone, and understand the power projection potential problems of having the ranged jumps be more frequent. But they also shown that players don't want to be tied to yesterday's start-of-session clone choice the next day, and that's where I feel 5 hours just isn't enough.
A 10hour reduction if in the same system/station sounds much more appealing, more likely to lead to fun options to mix things up for those that have the opportunity to fly various doctrines (remember we still can't use even a fraction of our SP or wealth at once anyway).
Don't make people train or plan to train a skill for this, especially if it's likely to be changed Soon. Almost as bad a 4 racial ECCM skills as a 'fix' for ECM, only hurts the new guys & those hoping for slightly varied session start-times.
First reaction to the skill as i was reading 
then I realized it was 5 hours total 
then i realized it really wouldn't make learning implants less important nor reduce the disincentive people, who use +5, feel to expose themselves to low sec/null sec risk.  They are still a necessity and really should be phased out like learning skills, i know but what about those who were walking up hill both ways in the snow.
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam
Tribal Band
774
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:19:00 -
[120] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:From the all the complaining I can only surmise that people do not want this skill & feature implementing.
I guess they are content with a continuation of the system currently in place. No. People just want them to fix the problem byGǪ you knowGǪ addressing the problem, rather than adding in a pointless one-day skill-training timesink as a half-assed band-aid to the problem.
In your opinion. |
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