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Razor Blue
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric
The Polaris Syndicate
9
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Posted - 2011.11.08 16:37:00 -
[211] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Are Incursions a giant ISK fountain making tens to hundreds of billions lost irrelevant in the face of massive income, or are they balanced?
Considering the whole server wide economy, the isk injected through the Incursions is peanuts compared what ratting, anomalies and missions make. Also incursions need group effort, constant input and has very limited availability.
Income from incursions is balanced
Gazmin VanBurin wrote:
Incursions are ruining EvEGÇÖs market
If there was no incursions, these Incursion runners would be "ruining Eve economy" by generating free minerals through mission loot or whatnot.
And about the LP-transfer, incursions generate more isk and less LP while lvl4 generate less isk but more LP and loot. No high sec incursion means people would run lvl4 or null sec anomalies instead. And naturally anomalies and lvl4 generate slightly less income because they can be soloed and require less player effort to complete.
Without incursions, people would be complaining how lvl4 are ruining the economy and how they should be moved to low sec.
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Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
288
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 16:38:00 -
[212] - Quote
To state the issue a bit more clearly.
Incursions are, for the most part, pure ISK. 80-120mil of it per hour.
There has never been a PURE ISK source, in highsec, like this before. You can blitz level 4's for 60-80mil an hour, but you're blitzing for LP which has a built in ISK / materials / tags sink.
Fundamentally, the best way of earning ISK in highsec has increased by something like 50% in terms of hourly income AND that income is not tethered to an ISK sink.
That changes things.
-
"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Atomik Harmonik
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 16:48:00 -
[213] - Quote
somebody says Incursions are making too much money, wahhhh
somebody else says; no they're not, wahhhh
So what? have your fun, play the game...who cares what the reason is that Incursions are getting griefed...I sure as hell don't!!!
I want to hear more stories about shiny ships blowing up, not wall after wall of text explaining motivations and debates about the finer points of ISK sinks and tethers. |
Odemis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 16:52:00 -
[214] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:To state the issue a bit more clearly.
Incursions are, for the most part, pure ISK. 80-120mil of it per hour.
There has never been a PURE ISK source, in highsec, like this before. You can blitz level 4's for 60-80mil an hour, but you're blitzing for LP which has a built in ISK / materials / tags sink.
Fundamentally, the best way of earning ISK in highsec has increased by something like 50% in terms of hourly income AND that income is not tethered to an ISK sink.
That changes things.
QFT.
Check out market trends on PLEX since the introduction of incursions as well. Though the recent spike in price could be attributed to butthurt incursionbears not wanting to grind back up to the shiny battleship SKNK. just turned into space glitter. You may say "you don't have that kind of impact" but we've seen 2 month old players time and time again go back to jita and buy a brand new mach/nightmare etc minutes after crying to us about how they just got the ship and we ruined them for life. I wonder how they make up the 1b isk needed to purchase a new shiny ship so fast. The fact that they tell us they are ruined AFTER they are destroyed tells me that they are PLEXing up. SKNK. (and probably CCP) are perfectly OK with this.
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Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
288
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 16:55:00 -
[215] - Quote
Odemis wrote:Khanh'rhh wrote:To state the issue a bit more clearly.
Incursions are, for the most part, pure ISK. 80-120mil of it per hour.
There has never been a PURE ISK source, in highsec, like this before. You can blitz level 4's for 60-80mil an hour, but you're blitzing for LP which has a built in ISK / materials / tags sink.
Fundamentally, the best way of earning ISK in highsec has increased by something like 50% in terms of hourly income AND that income is not tethered to an ISK sink.
That changes things. QFT. Check out market trends on PLEX since the introduction of incursions as well. Though the recent spike in price could be attributed to butthurt incursionbears not wanting to grind back up to the shiny battleship SKNK. just turned into space glitter. You may say "you don't have that kind of impact" but we've seen 2 month old players time and time again go back to jita and buy a brand new mach/nightmare etc minutes after crying to us about how they just got the ship and we ruined them for life. I wonder how they make up the 1b isk needed to purchase a new shiny ship so fast. The fact that they tell us they are ruined AFTER they are destroyed tells me that they are PLEXing up. SKNK. (and probably CCP) are perfectly OK with this.
Look at the volume traded on the Mach and nightmare, also. Weird, huh? Huge surge in demand since Incursions started the 23/7 grind? Weird.
Also look at the price of melted nanoribbons. They've gone up 50% and are on a ******* vertical ramp. I wonder ... could this POSSIBLY be because people have stopped running sleeper sites in a risk present WH for 60-100mil an hour, and are instead doing Incursions risk free?
Indeed.
-
"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
267
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 17:08:00 -
[216] - Quote
Razor Blue wrote:If there was no macro ratters or mining bots, then maybe even ice mining could be making equal income to the Incursions. That is the reason why Incursions pay so well: it cannot be botted to oblivion. Its group PVE activity which requires constant human input. And it does have very limited availability.
A valuable lesson that i understood long time ago is not to concern yourselves with other peoples isk/hour. If you do, it will sour the gaming experience very quickly.
If CCP ever nerfs Incursion income, i'll consider it as giant ***** slap in real players face and CCP saying: "We kinda like the $$$ from the botting accounts better."
The Mittani told me that he's more concerned with L4 mission bots than Incursion income, indicating that he believes they inject more cash into the system than Incursions. I won't argue that as there aren't any real numbers, but I'd certainly agree that mission bots should be dealt with. A dirty fix would be a captcha every 4-5 missions.
Ratting bots should be detectable enough based on their actions.
That doesn't change the fact that the incursioners claim to be putting 30+ billion isk an hour into the economy, with no comparable isk-sink to prevent inflation. If they do even half that number, that's 10 trillion isk a month being spread out across highsec PVE players who spend it on PLEX and shiny ships/mods, steadily driving prices up.
What bothers me about the isk/hour of highsec incursions is that it is equivalent to figures I was seeing working in small wormhole groups. That's really the core problem here: corporations living in nullsec wormholes make the same isk as highsec incursioners, only without the safety and without the CONSTANT availability of isk-producing activities. |
skajit spey
spey clave
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 17:28:00 -
[217] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote: that incursions in high sec pay too damn much. It's basically some of the best money in the game outside of owning a tech moon and therefore all kinds of people are just sitting in highsec doing those, rather than doing something.... ...and so on and so forth.
Now, are these not tears? and are they not delicious? |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 17:51:00 -
[218] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that the incursioners claim to be putting 30+ billion isk an hour into the economy, with no comparable isk-sink to prevent inflation. If they do even half that number, that's 10 trillion isk a month being spread out across highsec PVE players who spend it on PLEX and shiny ships/mods, steadily driving prices up.
You DARE misquote me. I am so outraged that would I have been a normal troll I'd have put this many exclamation marks in:
----> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <----
Here are the https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=229653#post229653 numbers
It's 36,4-38,9 billion isk an hour AT ABSOLUTELY, MEGA, FANTSTIC GIGA ULTRA PEAAAAAK TIME. Get it right before I have to chop it out in dead animal bones and spell it for you on the street. Peak time is the utter peak time of incursion runners INCLUDING the assumption of 3 highsec incursions and extreme crowdness in highsec.
Extremely, magically peak time. Estimated to last 20 hours every week.
The weekly average is so much lower!
I have done my assumptions and guesstimates. You've pointed your finger at me and said well fine.
I have given you the peak number of ISK generation in incursions. Weekly average is probably at 60-70 % of that if not lower.
Now you tell me these measly 3.8 trillion ISK generated in highsec. Is that ruining the eve market?
Khanh'rhh. Good on you for failing at math.
Quote:
Incursions are, for the most part, pure ISK. 80-120mil of it per hour.
There has never been a PURE ISK source, in highsec, like this before. You can blitz level 4's for 60-80mil an hour, but you're blitzing for LP which has a built in ISK / materials / tags sink.
Fundamentally, the best way of earning ISK in highsec has increased by something like 50% in terms of hourly income AND that income is not tethered to an ISK sink.
How do you add up 50 % and go from 60-80 m an hour in missions to 80-120 m an hour?
And no, incursions are NOT for the most part 80-120 m an hour. By all means get a fresh unbanned alt and you try run some incursions and see if you're doing 80-120 m an hour for the most part.
And don't start talking about fleets filled with just faction battleships, because that's not "for the most part".
PS: It's so easy to blame "the ruined market and plex prices" on a small percentage of pilots. Of course it's the minority's fault. 
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 17:52:00 -
[219] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Gazmin VanBurin
Go Petition Blizzard
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 18:07:00 -
[220] - Quote
Atomik Harmonik wrote:somebody says Incursions are making too much money, wahhhh
somebody else says; no they're not, wahhhh
So what? have your fun, play the game...who cares what the reason is that Incursions are getting griefed...I sure as hell don't!!!
I want to hear more stories about shiny ships blowing up, not wall after wall of text explaining motivations and debates about the finer points of ISK sinks and tethers.
I agree, we need to get back on topic of crushing incersioners under heel, Ammzl is a very broken record and his argument never changes |
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Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 18:12:00 -
[221] - Quote
Gazmin VanBurin wrote:Atomik Harmonik wrote:somebody says Incursions are making too much money, wahhhh
somebody else says; no they're not, wahhhh
So what? have your fun, play the game...who cares what the reason is that Incursions are getting griefed...I sure as hell don't!!!
I want to hear more stories about shiny ships blowing up, not wall after wall of text explaining motivations and debates about the finer points of ISK sinks and tethers. I agree, we need to get back on topic of crushing incersioners under heel, Ammzl is a very broken record and his argument never changes
*successful troll is successful*
\o/
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Zions Child
Odyssey Inc
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 18:15:00 -
[222] - Quote
Wait, there was a point? I thought it got lost after like 8 pages of economic epeen measuring. |
Gazmin VanBurin
Go Petition Blizzard
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 18:24:00 -
[223] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:
*successful troll is successful*
\o/
Cool story Bro
why dont you try incursion griefing next, its even more refreshing |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
267
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 19:24:00 -
[224] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:You DARE misquote me. I am so outraged that would I have been a normal troll I'd have put this many exclamation marks in: ----> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <---- Here are the https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=229653#post229653 numbers It's 36,4-38,9 billion isk an hour AT ABSOLUTELY, MEGA, FANTSTIC GIGA ULTRA PEAAAAAK TIME. Get it right before I have to chop it out in dead animal bones and spell it for you on the street. Peak time is the utter peak time of incursion runners INCLUDING the assumption of 3 highsec incursions and extreme crowdness in highsec. Extremely, magically peak time. Estimated to last 20 hours every week. The weekly average is so much lower!
umad? 
You ignore my repeated point that the issue isn't just the quantity of isk they make, it's that they make as much as riskier group activities in nullsec. Nullsec operations have natural isk-sinks. Again: NO COMPARABLE ISK SINK. They put isk into the market with little risk of anything being lost. |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 19:36:00 -
[225] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Ammzi wrote:You DARE misquote me. I am so outraged that would I have been a normal troll I'd have put this many exclamation marks in: ----> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <---- Here are the https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=229653#post229653 numbers It's 36,4-38,9 billion isk an hour AT ABSOLUTELY, MEGA, FANTSTIC GIGA ULTRA PEAAAAAK TIME. Get it right before I have to chop it out in dead animal bones and spell it for you on the street. Peak time is the utter peak time of incursion runners INCLUDING the assumption of 3 highsec incursions and extreme crowdness in highsec. Extremely, magically peak time. Estimated to last 20 hours every week. The weekly average is so much lower! umad? You ignore my repeated point that the issue isn't just the quantity of isk they make, it's that they make as much as riskier group activities in nullsec. Nullsec operations have natural isk-sinks. Again: NO COMPARABLE ISK SINK. They put isk into the market with little risk of anything being lost.
It does have an ISK sink, not very large one though.
But for every LP generated and spend 1 ISK is "sunk". (concord LP that is, it's different with the customs offices though).
Why do you never talk about incursions in nullsec?  They pay out almost double of highsec incursions.
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
110
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 19:49:00 -
[226] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:[quote=Razor Blue]...L4 mission bots than Incursion income, indicating that he believes they inject more cash into the system than Incursions. I won't argue that as there aren't any real numbers, but I'd certainly agree that mission bots should be dealt with. A dirty fix would be a captcha every 4-5 missions.
Oh, they will be. Our minions in CCP are hard at work on a new weapon to fight the Mission Runner Scourge. A storm is a' brewing lads and the farmers in the Umokka/Ruvas Bot Heaven will soon feel its righteous wrath.
Recruiting is OPEN
Please join our public channel The Ninja Dojo for more info |
Razor Blue
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric
The Polaris Syndicate
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 21:01:00 -
[227] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:To state the issue a bit more clearly.
Incursions are, for the most part, pure ISK. 80-120mil of it per hour.
There has never been a PURE ISK source, in highsec, like this before. You can blitz level 4's for 60-80mil an hour, but you're blitzing for LP which has a built in ISK / materials / tags sink.
Fundamentally, the best way of earning ISK in highsec has increased by something like 50% in terms of hourly income AND that income is not tethered to an ISK sink.
That changes things.
First, it is only a good thing that incursion sanshas are pure isk faucet and not a mineral faucet too.
Second, Concord LP store is isk sink too. 250mil for 6% implant. 150mil for 5run BPC. Personally i have spent nearly 1,5b isk in it. From Vanguards the LP payout is 1400, so if that LP is spend in Concord store, 1,4mil isk is sunk per site.
Or the LP can be exchanged but that would result 20% loss. A good fleet would result roughly 10k exchanged LP / hour.
People just keep on raging how incursions can make 100-120mil isk per hour, but completely disregard how easily and fast those numbers starts to dive. A bit overcrowded system, looking for replacement, lose a contested site, one player needs cat feeding afk and.... BAM!! Your isk/hour has suddently crashed on par with lvl4 missions or anomalys.
Lastly, if you can get together 7-8 faction fit pirate bs and 3 logistics, you are damn sure to be very effective in whatever you decide to do, yes? |
boooooosso
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 21:16:00 -
[228] - Quote
OM I just saw this on Youtube. Funny **** ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwA--gnZWDA&feature=youtu.be
OMG, I'm going to be following this **** from now on. Guy in corp linked it. This is awesome. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
267
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 21:25:00 -
[229] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:Why do you never talk about incursions in nullsec? They pay out almost double of highsec incursions.
Because lowsec and nullsec incursions have natural risk associated with them, the same as wormholes. It's entirely possible for a PVP fleet to show and up ruin the incursion fleets' day without fear of concord.
Let me make this clear: I have absolutely no problem with the incursion content. On the contrary, I think it's brilliant. My problem is that the payout of highsec incursions does not reflect the safety afforded to players. Remove the concord protection and we wouldn't be having this conversation. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
269
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 21:27:00 -
[230] - Quote
There will be more videos soon. I have about two hours of footage, including more of Odemis' singing squirrel ransoms. It's just a matter of finding the time to edit. |
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Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 21:45:00 -
[231] - Quote
Oh lol ....
Floppie we agree then, almost 
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
kiki mo
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 22:02:00 -
[232] - Quote
good
can we lock this thread now? |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 22:16:00 -
[233] - Quote
kiki mo wrote:good
can we lock this thread now?
Huh, .. but why?
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
270
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 22:47:00 -
[234] - Quote
kiki mo wrote:good
can we lock this thread now?
But there are still funnies to be made! |
Andrei Taganov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 22:53:00 -
[235] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:
No, you and I define the term "corp member" differently.
Slimy worm and his numerous alts got your corp blacklisted and wardecced by mercenaries that some incursion runners hired.
So several corp members that were griefing gave your corp a bad reputation.
Just the facts. Slimy Worm is only one man, and only one member of SKNK.
Ammzi wrote:
Our options are limited.
Mine were too, welcome to the club.
Ammzi wrote:
...Says he should have called me a "crybaby" instead of a "hypocrite" after being called out for Ad Hominem (quite civilly, I might add), accuses me of "QQ" ing, and then refuses to respond to more of my post that contains relevant comparisons and analysis of the situation he claims to be so interested in clearing the air about because I'm calling names!...
You, sir, are clearly trolling (I should have listened the first time I said that). As such, I hope you will pardon me if I excuse myself from any further attempts to feed you.
~Andrei. |
Andrei Taganov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 22:59:00 -
[236] - Quote
Yes! The first video is finally up! After watching that, I can't imagine anyone thinking that what we're actually doing should be stopped...
~Andrei. |
Andrei Taganov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 23:00:00 -
[237] - Quote
kiki mo wrote:good
can we lock this thread now?
You could just stop clicking it.
~Andrei. |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 23:14:00 -
[238] - Quote
Andrei Taganov wrote:
You, sir, are clearly trolling (I should have listened the first time I said that). As such, I hope you will pardon me if I excuse myself from any further attempts to feed you.
~Andrei.
*tucks napkin*
Oh well, there's other places to be fed.
Au revoir!
PS: Did you see the new videos from SISI?
Turret fire that "miss" a ship will actually VISUALLY miss ships now!!!
Speed tanking buff x 1000
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
TheMcNaughty
Perkone
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 03:58:00 -
[239] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:
*tucks napkin*
Oh well, there's other places to be fed.
Au revoir!
Oh thank God... |
carmelos53
OMG totally awesome corp of one
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 04:49:00 -
[240] - Quote
It's pretty funny to me^ that you guys are all tearing because your Corp gets banned from two CHANNELS...now add the fact that you knew exactly what your Corp mate was doing and didn't mind it but still feel hurt that your corps are... Let's just repeat this statement.... --->channel banned<---
You guys are just a bunch of kids. Maybe some ice cream will cheer slimy worm and his friends up. The actions of your Corp members dictate how the people see the group. If you didn't like the opinions of others hurting your "good name" maybe being dochebags in the first place wasn't the best option.
Please go tell your parents maybe they will care. |
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