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Malrikk
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.03.13 06:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
I started playing Eve a long time ago on and off, as my understanding of the game has grown my desires in-game have changed.
My skills are a cluster of clutter from mining to a plethora of various random skills. For instance mining, it was one of the first things I trained and have regretted it ever since. I would love to be able to put those skill points into something else.
I propose a skill remap, possibly a one year timer on it, and it would cost roughly 10% of your skill points as the remap is rather dangerous and memory loss has been known to happen. I believe this would balance out the remap and only the most desperate like myself would use it. Eve Online is a complicated game, and brutal on the newbies, this would go a long way to help some of us out who made a lot of bad decisions early on. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9130
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Posted - 2014.03.13 06:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
I kNOw what this thread's going to be full of. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
615
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
We currently receive 2 bonus remaps for ech character.
If we instead changed that to a skill point loss to remap, we would lose these right?
If this became the mechanic to remap, what would happen each 12 months. We still get a free remap, or we run 2 systems so thar every year we get 1 free remap? eve-bazaar - Discount prices on ships and PLEX. Real savings to drive your ISK further. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19919
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
No. If you want to do something else, just train it.
Alternatively, just ask them to remove skills entirely since that's effectively what you're suggesting.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Malrikk
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:We currently receive 2 bonus remaps for ech character.
If we instead changed that to a skill point loss to remap, we would lose these right?
If this became the mechanic to remap, what would happen each 12 months. We still get a free remap, or do we have ti pay skill points each year to remap?
Why have remap at all? I can't change my expertise or IQ/EQ in real life without growing and studying, so why make it possible in game?
Neural remap and skill point remap should remain exclusive of one another. I'm not asking for a change to neural remapping, just the addition of a skill point remap. But I don't believe it should be free, a 10% loss in skill points sounds balanced to me. |
Divine Entervention
The Advent of Faith Against ALL Anomalies
114
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
I completely agree.
Once a year a character should be able to unassign all of his skill points, totaling them into a batch for him to reassign to the skills he rather his character be geared towards.
Upon everyone's realization of this being incredibly successful, CCP can then sell Skill Point redistribution tokens for $14.99.
Not doing this is incredibly silly. Someone people don't want it, but obviously, some do. Free Market capitalism. There's a demand, all CCP needs to do is supply it's need. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
615
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 07:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Malrikk wrote:Neural remap and skill point remap should remain exclusive of one another. I'm not asking for a change to neural remapping, just the addition of a skill point remap. But I don't believe it should be free, a 10% loss in skill points sounds balanced to me.
Seems illogical to me.
I don't want to be a scientist anymore, I want to be a plumber.
Please don't make me study, just convert my scientific knowledge into plumbing and local planning knowledge.
Doesn't really work as far as I'm concerned. Sorry. eve-bazaar - Discount prices on ships and PLEX. Real savings to drive your ISK further. |
Malrikk
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. If you want to do something else, just train it.
Alternatively, just ask them to remove skills entirely since that's effectively what you're suggesting.
It's completely optional, so how does it hurt your gameplay?
And why would I ask them to remove skills outright? Just because I don't enjoy mining, doesn't mean other people don't enjoy it. |
Divine Entervention
The Advent of Faith Against ALL Anomalies
114
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's like, you've already spent the time learning an established amount of skill points. You've earned the right to that amount of skill points through time invested. You should be given the option to reassign them to other places. You've earned it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19921
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Malrikk wrote:Neural remap and skill point remap should remain exclusive of one another. I'm not asking for a change to neural remapping, just the addition of a skill point remap. But I don't believe it should be free, a 10% loss in skill points sounds balanced to me. What you're asking makes attribute remaps pointless since they no longer serve any purpose. In fact, it makes attributes pointless since they no longer serve any purpose.
And no, 10% is not balanced. Bump it up to, say, 80% with an absolute minimum loss of 30M and you might approach something that would actually make it at least remotely punishing to use. But the main problem remains: it just outright removes large portions of the game. To use the age-old copypasta to highlight the most glaring problems with SP remappingGǪ
It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Malrikk
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Malrikk wrote:Neural remap and skill point remap should remain exclusive of one another. I'm not asking for a change to neural remapping, just the addition of a skill point remap. But I don't believe it should be free, a 10% loss in skill points sounds balanced to me. Seems illogical to me. I don't want to be a scientist anymore, I want to be a plumber. Please don't make me study, just convert my scientific knowledge into plumbing and local planning knowledge. Doesn't really work as far as I'm concerned. Sorry.
Alright. Challenge accepted.
How does a neural remap sound logical to you? A humans brain is hardwired during the early years of life. To say that I've always been strong with mathematics, and all of a sudden I'm going to undertake a neural "remap" to lose my mathematical prowess, and assign that mental prowess into something entirely different is just as illogical.
But that's okay, because it's a sci-fi video game. |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
1823
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
It's not profitable to allow players to save time in sub-based game. We'll have to wait till EVE go full F2P and/or full cash shop to see this option - and most likely it will be paid. |
Malrikk
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Malrikk wrote:Neural remap and skill point remap should remain exclusive of one another. I'm not asking for a change to neural remapping, just the addition of a skill point remap. But I don't believe it should be free, a 10% loss in skill points sounds balanced to me. What you're asking makes attribute remaps pointless since they no longer serve any purpose. In fact, it makes attributes pointless since they no longer serve any purpose. All you do is remap for Int/mem and fill your queue with science skills that will train at a fixed 2700 SP/h (or 23,652,000 SP per year) that you then put into whatever you want. Picking one attribute combo over another is no longer relevant since your choice of skills no longer matter GÇö just how much SP/h you can squeeze out, and that part is trivial to maximise. So your suggestion effectively removes attributes (and the ability to remap them) as meaningful game mechanics and they might as well just be cut from the game. And no, 10% is not balanced. Bump it up to, say, 80% with an absolute minimum loss of 30M and you might approach something that would actually make it at least remotely punishing to use. But the main problem remains: it just outright removes large portions of the game. To use the age-old copypasta to highlight the most glaring problems with SP remappingGǪ It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. Quote:It's completely optional, so how does it hurt your gameplay? It hurts my gameplay by removing all skill progression. Once you have enough SP GÇö after no more than a year or two GÇö you can remap it to cover anything and everything in the game as if you had been playing for 20 years. It hurts my gameplay by turning the game into an XP/Level-grinding game rather than a game where thoughtful application of training time gives me an edge over those who weren't thoughtful. Quote:And why would I ask them to remove skills outright? Because that's the direct consequence of what you're suggesting: that time spent going down a certain training path no longer counts towards that particular path but any path of equal length. Skill choices no longer distinguish characters and they just become infinitely mutable piles of SP, where more SP is always better.
It removes the point of having skills to begin with. False, this does not remove the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes. We can already remap attributes, would you say that this removes the point of having them as well?
It removes attribute implants from the game. How does it do this? There will always be something to train.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. Once a year at the cost of a % of your skill points?
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. A characters "uniqueness" doesn't derive from how you spent your time training as you were AFK, doing real life things, etc. Your actions in the game derive a characters uniqueness.
It removes planning and choice and consequences. I would argue that the real consequence should come from actual in-game choices, like gameplay. But there is a reason I want a 12 month timer on this.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. Same as above.
It kills character trading. Character skill points would still be there, if anything it would make high skill point characters more valuable
It massively boosts older characters over new ones. At the same time, the people that are newer to the game will have an opportunity to play with the veterans if they so choose to without worrying about a fake progression wall.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. How is this "catching up"? This isn't a free allocation of skill points. They still need to be earned. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1327
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 07:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Malrikk wrote:[quote=Tippia]It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. How is this "catching up"? This isn't a free allocation of skill points. They still need to be earned. the whole idea of 'catching up' is based on SP amount. As you collect SP over time new player can never 'catch' older one.
Actually he can. If: - Old player use no implants and new player use them - Old player stoped to train skills
Now players have SPs in different areas. This makes 'catching up' less important
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19925
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 07:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Malrikk wrote:1) False, this does not remove the point of having skills to begin with. 2) We can already remap attributes, would you say that this removes the point of having them as well? 3) How does it do this? There will always be something to train. 4) Once a year at the cost of a % of your skill points? 5) A characters "uniqueness" doesn't derive from how you spent your time training as you were AFK, doing real life things, etc. Your actions in the game derive a characters uniqueness. 6) I would argue that the real consequence should come from actual in-game choices, like gameplay. But there is a reason I want a 12 month timer on this. 7) Same as above. 8) Character skill points would still be there, if anything it would make high skill point characters more valuable 9) At the same time, the people that are newer to the game will have an opportunity to play with the veterans if they so choose to without worrying about a fake progression wall. 10) How is this "catching up"? This isn't a free allocation of skill points. They still need to be earned. 1. The point of having skills is that if you train it, you have an ability that I don't and I have an ability that you don't. You choose one thing and forego another; I chose the other thing and forego the one. If you can just remap, the choice is reversible and no longer matters.
2. Since attributes are meaningless, remapping them is meaningless as well.
3. Attribute implants are only meaningful if attributes are meaningful. Your idea make attributes meaningless.
4. Once a year is about how often the FOTM changes and the cost is insignificant compared to what you gain.
5. Again, skills and the choices of where the training time has been spent is what sets one character apart from another. The ability to wipe out those choices removes that distinction.
6. Skill choices are still choices of a strategic nature. Remapping removes all consequences of that choice and negates the need to choose to begin with.
7. Being able to finally do X or fly Y is a common goal that people set up. Reaching that goal means giving up others for the time being. Remapping this removes all such goals since you no longer have to choose. All you have to do is amass SP and it'll fill in for anything you'd ever want.
8. Character trading is about builds and now wanting to wait to get a build you didn't choose. Since the choice is gone and you can have anything you like, builds no longer matter and there is no longer any need to wait GÇö just build what you need from what you already have.
9. No, new players will not have the SP buffers that give the older players their flexibility. Remapping gives older players even more flexibility and gives new players absolutely nothing since they have to sit around and wait for their own pile to accumulate.
10. With remapping, the choice of skills are no longer relevant. The only thing that matters is how large your pile of SP is because that GÇö rather than your history of choices GÇö is what decides what you can and can't do. Right now, the only thing that new players can't GÇ£catch upGÇ¥ with is the size of their SP pile, but as luck would have it, right now the size of that pile is meaningless. You are asking for that to be completely reversed. It's the fact that the SP still has to be earned that makes it impossible to catch up.
Your idea is old, and no matter how often it has been suggested, it has always been awful for the exact same reasons: it removes crucial game balancing mechanics; it turns the game into a design it has deliberately and exquisitely avoided; and it solves absolutely nothing. If you want a game where older is inherently and unavoidably better than newer, go play a grinding game; if you want a game where you can do anything, pick one without character building. One of EVE's greatest benefits is that it offers character building without the grind and without the insurmountable old-vs-new imbalance GÇö removing the latter and introducing the former is not beneficial to the game. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Luwc
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 07:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
No. |
Grunanca
Doughboys Shadow Cartel
165
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Posted - 2014.03.13 08:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:I completely agree.
Once a year a character should be able to unassign all of his skill points, totaling them into a batch for him to reassign to the skills he rather his character be geared towards.
Upon everyone's realization of this being incredibly successful, CCP can then sell Skill Point redistribution tokens for $14.99.
Not doing this is incredibly silly. Someone people don't want it, but obviously, some do. Free Market capitalism. There's a demand, all CCP needs to do is supply it's need.
Which would then lead to the demand for the game to decline, propably leading to a total loss for ccp. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10355
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 08:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Malrikk wrote:[quote=Tippia]It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. How is this "catching up"? This isn't a free allocation of skill points. They still need to be earned. the whole idea of 'catching up' is based on SP amount. As you collect SP over time new player can never 'catch' older one. Actually he can. If: - Old player use no implants and new player use them - Old player stoped to train skills Now players have SPs in different areas. This makes 'catching up' less important
There is also only so many SP you can put into a ship.
OP you are bad and you should feel bad, your instant gratification and demands for removal of conciquences have no place in EVE. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
207
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Posted - 2014.03.13 08:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
If you want new skills, why not just train them? You don't need all lvl 5's to be effective.
Baddest poster ever |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
616
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Posted - 2014.03.13 08:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Malrikk wrote:Alright. Challenge accepted.
How does a neural remap sound logical to you? It don't.
My mammy taught me, two wrongs don't make a right!
Get rid of neural remaps too.
eve-bazaar - Discount prices on ships and PLEX. Real savings to drive your ISK further. |
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Divine Entervention
The Advent of Faith Against ALL Anomalies
115
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Posted - 2014.03.13 08:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Grunanca wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:I completely agree.
Once a year a character should be able to unassign all of his skill points, totaling them into a batch for him to reassign to the skills he rather his character be geared towards.
Upon everyone's realization of this being incredibly successful, CCP can then sell Skill Point redistribution tokens for $14.99.
Not doing this is incredibly silly. Someone people don't want it, but obviously, some do. Free Market capitalism. There's a demand, all CCP needs to do is supply it's need. Which would then lead to the demand for the game to decline, propably leading to a total loss for ccp.
You have no proof that it will lead to a decline in demand. |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
219
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Posted - 2014.03.13 08:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Also, such a system would completely gut the skill progression system, since prerequisite skills become worthless - for example, once you have your T2 large artillery, you could just recycle the skillpoints from small and mediums if you intend never to use them, and churn those points elsewhere. Need a raft of leadership skills for a command ship? Not anymore, once you have command ships injected, those skills can just be converted and used elsewehere. You will have Capital Ship pilots without a single skillpoint in any subcap of the racial capital they fly; suddenly Titan and Supercapital pilots (who are entombed anyway, so have no need for a single skillpoint used for any ship or weapon that isn't their particular coffin) generated in record time, as once they get the hull and capital mods skills in, they can flip the skillpojnts from the subcap skills to instantly max the capital ones. It would render whole parts of the skill system completely and utterly redundant. |
voetius
BITB Support Services
199
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Posted - 2014.03.13 08:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
If you want to "clean up" your character sheet OP, just do what I did. Train everything to level IV or V.
The skills I'm never going to use like e.g. Mining which IIRC I got at level 1 when I started playing go to IV. Everything else goes to V unless it's one of the few skills that are not worth training to V e.g. Tactical Shield Manipulation or those skills that otherwise don't give any benefit or aren't a prerequisite for something I want. |
Yarda Black
Epidemic. Nulli Secunda
71
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Posted - 2014.03.13 09:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
No
I certainly dont feel like paying skillpoints to remap cos other dudes didnt read the skill-decription or thought about how they were spending their time before just doing it and complaining later. |
Reiisha
Evolution
519
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Posted - 2014.03.13 09:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
EVE is a game of planning and consequences.
This kind of feature would undermine everything EVE is about.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all... |
Jint Hikaru
Truly Transdimensional The Nova Foundry
1125
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Posted - 2014.03.13 09:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
No No No!
Not going to bother spending time typing out my reasons, as the OP obviously didn't bother searching the forums and reading other posts with the same subject. (or even bother posting in the correct forum)
Also Tippia can usually handle these threads without any help.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
220
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Posted - 2014.03.13 09:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
Yarda Black wrote:No
I certainly dont feel like paying skillpoints to remap cos other dudes didnt read the skill-decription or thought about how they were spending their time before just doing it and complaining later.
Which is a very valid point. Before someone jumps in and says "you aren't being forced to do anything", the reality is much different. If such a thing was implimented, in serious organisations, it would be expected of everyone to do their part and utilise it. For example, a number of times my Alliance has shifted their main doctrines; in the last year we shifted from Maelstroms, to Rokhs, and then to Megathrons, and we shifted our Dreadnaught doctrine from bring what you like (unless its a Pheonix), to primarily Naglfars. In both cases, these changes were implemented over time (with some transitional allowances so people with no skills could still fly with the fleet while getting the relevant skills), yet, if this system was put in place, the expectation would be that everyone would burn their old skillpoints in to the new race.
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid
459
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 09:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:EVE is a game of planning and consequences.
This kind of feature would undermine everything EVE is about.
Well said.
As much as I love EvE and as much as the proposed feature would be to my massive advantage I am sincere when I say that the day skill remaps are brought in would be the day to unsub your accounts and find another game because EvE will have died that day. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
Bedwyr McNobbler
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2014.03.13 09:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Yarda Black wrote:No
I certainly dont feel like paying skillpoints to remap cos other dudes didnt read the skill-decription or thought about how they were spending their time before just doing it and complaining later. Which is a very valid point. Before someone jumps in and says "you aren't being forced to do anything", the reality is much different. If such a thing was implimented, in serious organisations, it would be expected of everyone to do their part and utilise it. For example, a number of times my Alliance has shifted their main doctrines; in the last year we shifted from Maelstroms, to Rokhs, and then to Megathrons, and we shifted our Dreadnaught doctrine from bring what you like (unless its a Pheonix), to primarily Naglfars. In both cases, these changes were implemented over time (with some transitional allowances so people with no skills could still fly with the fleet while getting the relevant skills), yet, if this system was put in place, the expectation would be that everyone would burn their old skillpoints in to the new race.
"Sorry, i've already used my remap for this year"
The OP isn't after something like WoW, Lotro etc where you can respec your character anytime he is on about the ability to do it once per year.
As for those claiming this is a game of consequences then yes I would agree. However, there are plenty of cases where how a particular skillset works has been changed by CCP since a player first learned those skills. In some cases they have refunded Sp but in others they have left a player with a set of skills that that player no longer feels is useful.
Others here say it makes no sense to be able to remap skills since you have already learned them (the example being a scientist wanting to be a plumber). We do not learn skills by practice, we simply inject them ala "The Matrix".
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Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
684
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 10:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
If it's only once per year, why not simply learn those new skills normally?
Either you'll be decent in what new things you want to do within a month and then you'll have lotsa more time to perfect it.
Or the new things you want to do are completely different and so huge, that it takes longer, like.. I don't know .. Fly a carrier instead of doing industry? I don't know whether that's an appropriate example.
In that case you're starting something completely different from what you've done so far, so you are basically a newbie. Then what applies to a newbie should apply to you, too: Start small, learn how the part of EVE you want to do works, you can be useful with smaller stuff as well etc. |
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