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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
John Dean
The Red Exhilez Corrosive.
1
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:32:00 -
[211] - Quote
Desimus Maximus wrote:I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.
W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.
If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.
If you want to fight go to low or nullsec you pussies. Or just live with the perfectly fine scanning mechanics as is. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.
^ This |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:32:00 -
[212] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.
The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.
The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.
Again, I will repeat it for the folks who have been living under a rock for the past few years. EvE is not meant to be safe, W-Space even more so. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:34:00 -
[213] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:
Don't use your condescending tone... You're only trying to make this point because you're the aggressor.
First, I will continue using the condescending tone to you since you have problems comprehending the basic design principles behind EvE. Second, there is nothing wrong with being the aggressor, thats what this game is about. Ohh wait, let me bow down to your lordship... You are right, we are wrong, you are all knowing, we have no right to speak our mind and take part in this discussion. Everytime you disregard idea's and opinions from others in such a condescending tone, you are only proving you are single minded and short sighted. Good luck my lordship...
Funny, because you dismissed my entire post just because I happen to be an agressor. Don't worry my little scrub peon, you are not alone in your hypocrisy,. |
Pseudo Ucksth
B0rthole
172
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:34:00 -
[214] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:What do you mean even more people moving out of wormholes? I was unaware of some mass exodus out of one of the most profitable parts of the game. And what do you mean by wormhole coalitions? How does this change even remotely promote coalitions? How would a coalition member not already in the same wormhole system respond to aid someone under attack in that system?
You have not been paying much attention, then. C6s are a ghost town now. Very few people live in them anymore when previously they were sort of regarded as the hard mode of wspace.
By wormhole coalitions I mean imagine a scenario where you're going to see more previously unalinged corps joining alliances, and alliances start to absorb smaller alliances. Staging wormholes will develop, moonlocked with deathstars, and day tripping will become the norm for constant income while others use alts with throwaway expo holes that they run until they get ganked or run the sites dry and extract the capitals to kspace for the next expo, leaving the towers behind.
It will become like nullsec without stargates. These huge wspace entities will rage roll with impunity until they come upon some unlucky small corp that doesn't want to play with the big boys and get ganked, turned into renters, or evicted, because that's simply the way of things.
This sort of thing has been happening to a small extent as wormholes have been ~iterated~ on over the years, but a change like this could accelerate it out of control to the point where it may never be able to be undone. See: lowsec incursion culture, which rose organically |
Wander Prian
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
27
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:35:00 -
[215] - Quote
I agree on delaying the K162 from showing on the overlay, but I don't like the idea of it being delayed for probes too. The primary idea for eve is that you have to work to get your prize. It's not supposed to fall into your lap from the sky. If you work actively towards something, you should have the benefits that come from it. If you use probes, you should see the new sig as soon as it spawns. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
421
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:36:00 -
[216] - Quote
This concept puts too much power to the aggressor. And honestly we are not talking about pvp, we're talking about ganking pve targets. It's not like this is going to cause more good fights, it's just going to cause more pure one sided ganks. Sorry ganks aren't pvp (there fun when your ganking and its a small gang and you get stuff, but hardly pvp once you surpass a certain amount of people and your going up against pve targets.
We need this to promote small gang fights, not random ganks from invisible undetectable wormholes. You have to get this to function more as a combat method for smaller groups and gangs. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
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Tyrant Scorn
109
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:38:00 -
[217] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Funny, because you dismissed my entire post just because I happen to be an agressor. Don't worry my little scrub peon, you are not alone in your hypocrisy,.
Your condescending tone made me dismiss everything you said... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:42:00 -
[218] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:This concept puts too much power to the aggressor. And honestly we are not talking about pvp, we're talking about ganking pve targets. It's not like this is going to cause more good fights, it's just going to cause more pure one sided ganks. Sorry ganks aren't pvp (there fun when your ganking and its a small gang and you get stuff, but hardly pvp once you surpass a certain amount of people and your going up against pve targets.
We need this to promote small gang fights, not random ganks from invisible undetectable wormholes. You have to get this to function more as a combat method for smaller groups and gangs.
This isn't about GOOD ******* FIGHTS, this is about risk reward! |
Rater Chanlin
End-of-Line
1
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:43:00 -
[219] - Quote
Two step wrote:Also, there seem to be a lot of people who think even the largest groups can just form up a blob in less than 5 minutes. If you aren't already rolling holes with the intent to gank site runners, it takes time to get folks formed up. It takes time to identify which anomoly or signature people are at. All this change would do is at a minimum (if the discovery scanner was delayed) require people to put in a small amount of effort (mash scan button) to detect incoming K162s. If you want to make the big bucks, you need to be at big risk, and that simply isn't true right now in C5 space and most of C6 space.
It doesn't take that long. In an active hole you will probably have less than five anomalies(a couple probably being ore sites) and less than five sigs. More than likely people running escalations are already scrammed so they are going to need to kill NPCs before they have a chance to get off field. I am using escalations as the example because it seems to be what everyone is using.
One problem I see is signatures showing up when warp is initiated, it makes no sense logically. I believe the signature needs to become scannable when someone jumps through. You should also need to probe the signatures instead of seeing them automatically pop up. Also wouldn't mind seeing ore sites going back to signatures also. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:44:00 -
[220] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Funny, because you dismissed my entire post just because I happen to be an agressor. Don't worry my little scrub peon, you are not alone in your hypocrisy,. Your condescending tone made me dismiss everything you said...
Oh woe is me, a useless scrublord who never stepped foot in w-space is dismissive of my ideas. How shall I ever go on? |
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Tyrant Scorn
109
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:46:00 -
[221] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Funny, because you dismissed my entire post just because I happen to be an agressor. Don't worry my little scrub peon, you are not alone in your hypocrisy,. Your condescending tone made me dismiss everything you said... Oh woe is me, a useless scrublord who never stepped foot in w-space is dismissive of my ideas. How shall I ever go on?
Whahaha... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Joan Greywind
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
340
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:49:00 -
[222] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.
The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.
The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either. Again, I will repeat it for the folks who have been living under a rock for the past few years. EvE is not meant to be safe, W-Space even more so.
Yes nice deduction from what I have said, apparently if my view is a little different from yours then I must have "been living under a rock".
If you have any good reading comprehension I clearly stated that it is too safe now, but making impossible to see the gank coming is a too easy for the gankers and not too good of game mechanics in my opinion. What I was saying make the relative safety (not total as you can still get ganked) come at a price of your loot. You want to run, fine but you will lose part of your loot.
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Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
59
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:53:00 -
[223] - Quote
An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out. |
Joan Greywind
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
340
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:55:00 -
[224] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out.
Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay.
Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2078
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:55:00 -
[225] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.
The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.
The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.
I said it earlier in the thread, but make blue loot bounties first and MAYBE we can talk.
Until the isk generation in WH space is so fundamentally different from the rest of EVE that the concept of an ESS is BS. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
60
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Posted - 2014.03.24 03:58:00 -
[226] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out. Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented. Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out.
In order to make any kind of ESS style module work you'd either have to put blue loot into it directly, which would basically make it a fueled module which could be implemented in a totally different way, or you'd have to make wormholes pay out exactly like any other site, which makes zero sense with the way that wormholes work - who's going to be paying you for shooting sleepers? More to the point, it's removing the logistical challenges that are deliberately there to make living in wormholes less comfortable. |
Joan Greywind
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
340
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:05:00 -
[227] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out. Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented. Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out. In order to make any kind of ESS style module work you'd either have to put blue loot into it directly, which would basically make it a fueled module which could be implemented in a totally different way, or you'd have to make wormholes pay out exactly like any other site, which makes zero sense with the way that wormholes work - who's going to be paying you for shooting sleepers? More to the point, it's removing the logistical challenges that are deliberately there to make living in wormholes less comfortable.
The empires have decided that the sleepers can be a significant threat to the empires and they have many technologies to offer, and would like to start studying the effects of the sleepers in the wh themselves, so if you put the blueprints for them to study in a module they offer you in wh space, they will give you the ability to scan k162's immediately. Took me 2 minutes to solve the "lore" problem for you mr rper, I am sure many more capable people could do a better job.
As I said, as a subscriber it is not my job to offer programming solutions to the devs. All I do is offer my opinion of what I want from a gameplay perspective and it is their role to come with the programming solutions. We first have to agree what is best from a gameplay point of view and then come up with the programming solutions required to implement such a change. |
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
4
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:06:00 -
[228] - Quote
There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet rolling. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.
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Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
60
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:09:00 -
[229] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.
Yeap. With these changes you wouldn't even have the risk of someone dropping onto you while you were rolling the hole away, because they couldn't scan it out before you had your jumps done. |
Michael1995
Lazerhawks
103
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:10:00 -
[230] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact.
On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find).
A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.
If anything were to change, this should be it. One does not simply buy their way into Goonswarm. |
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Je'rin
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
0
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:12:00 -
[231] - Quote
It seems like the overlay is the problem. Why not either take it out or have it be a special function of covops ships or probe launcher modules. |
Unholey
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
17
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:18:00 -
[232] - Quote
Well I just don't like this idea at all. Delay signatures appearing on the sensor overlay ok, but not being able to scan it with probes as it spawns is ridiculous. You Can't Fly In Here |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:18:00 -
[233] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote: Just a note: Moving blue loot is not in any way a "logistical challenge", would like it to be, but sadly isn't. At best it is a minor inconvenience.
You must not have had much experience trying to move things along the ever-changing routes from W-space to highsec. Unless you have a WH directly to highsec (And no active wardecs), odds are you'll be going through several WH's, many jumps through Lowsec, and sometimes even more jumps through hostile nullsec if you've gone long enough without a decent WH and are running low on both ISK and Fuel. One of my more recent routes was through 2 C6's then a C3 and then middle of nowhere highsec. Had to give up and run home because one of the WH's became highly active. Yes, sometimes moving blue loot is as simple as you think it always is, but that is actually a fairly rare occurence for those of us who live without k-space statics. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2083
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:19:00 -
[234] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:Just a note: Moving blue loot is not in any way a "logistical challenge", would like it to be, but sadly isn't. At best it is a minor inconvenience.
So says you. Bottom line Blue loot is of no value until you can get it sold, which can only be done in k-space. And compared to the push button receive isk nature of bounties, it can be a "challenge".
In that vein, maybe all bounties should become a loot certificate that have to be scooped from the cargohold of ships. I would love to hear the collective cries of 0.0 space for this "minor inconvenience". Or that of LS and HS for that matter.
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Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
61
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:23:00 -
[235] - Quote
SambaSol wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out. Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented. Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out. In order to make any kind of ESS style module work you'd either have to put blue loot into it directly, which would basically make it a fueled module which could be implemented in a totally different way, or you'd have to make wormholes pay out exactly like any other site, which makes zero sense with the way that wormholes work - who's going to be paying you for shooting sleepers? More to the point, it's removing the logistical challenges that are deliberately there to make living in wormholes less comfortable. The empires have decided that the sleepers can be a significant threat to the empires and they have many technologies to offer, and would like to start studying the effects of the sleepers in the wh themselves, so if you put the blueprints for them to study in a module they offer you in wh space, they will give you the ability to scan k162's immediately. Took me 2 minutes to solve the "lore" problem for you mr rper, I am sure many more capable people could do a better job. As I said, as a subscriber it is not my job to offer programming solutions to the devs. All I do is offer my opinion of what I want from a gameplay perspective and it is their role to come with the programming solutions. We first have to agree what is best from a gameplay point of view and then come up with the programming solutions required to implement such a change. Just a note: Moving blue loot is not in any way a "logistical challenge", would like it to be, but sadly isn't. At best it is a minor inconvenience. You must not have had much experience trying to move things along the ever-changing routes from W-space to highsec. Unless you have a WH directly to highsec (And no active wardecs), odds are you'll be going through several WH's, many jumps through Lowsec, and sometimes even more jumps through hostile nullsec if you've gone long enough without a decent WH and are running low on both ISK and Fuel. One of my more recent routes was through 2 C6's then a C3 and then middle of nowhere highsec. Had to give up and run home because one of the WH's became highly active. Yes, sometimes moving blue loot is as simple as you think it always is, but that is actually a fairly rare occurence for those of us who live without k-space statics.
And then there's the time when you get out fine and somebody rolls a hole half way down the chain and leaves your hauler stuck out. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
47
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:31:00 -
[236] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:BayneNothos wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:I really think people need to open their eyes and consider that the way it is right is fair. When you're on the ball and you pay attention, nothing can catch you, that's how it should be. The same goes for the hunter, if you know what you're doing you will catch people who don't.
It doesn't get more fair then that. Giving any sort of delay to K162's is unfair because it gives any hunter a head start which they should not have. But the defender already has an advantage in the sig showing up when warp is initiated. They have how long it takes me to align, warp, land, power to the wh, jump, load system and dscan to warp away. If you want fair, then don't show the K162 until someone jumps the WH, or failing that due to a technical issue or some such, add a delay to when it's shown K162 side that's vaguely based off an average of how long all of what I listed above takes, kind of like whats being proposed by CCP Fozzie... It doesn't take you multiple minutes to get to the wormhole unless you're in the habit of probing down your static with a capital. I do think that a good compromise would be holding off on the K162 until someone jumped, along with the removal of the new scanning system, forcing use of actual scan probes and paying attention.
Ugh lost post here's the tldr
Yah scan phoenix ftw. Any subcap can warp out in that time. At least 5s to do a jump alone
Cap balance is you stay still for extra dps an super reps |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:36:00 -
[237] - Quote
Completely removing the K162 spawn until someone has transited would be going a little too far, odds are 90% of incoming WH's from k-space would go unactivated. Solution: yet ANOTHER timer. How many timers are we suggesting adding to wormholes now? |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
63
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:45:00 -
[238] - Quote
SambaSol wrote:Completely removing the K162 spawn until someone has transited would be going a little too far, odds are 90% of incoming WH's from k-space would go unactivated. Solution: yet ANOTHER timer. How many timers are we suggesting adding to wormholes now?
That is kind of true, it would lead to less people activating wormholes because they could warp to it and see what type of space it leads to without jumping.
Of course, you could make it that warping will trigger a timer, which jumping would skip completely, causing the K162 to pop up immediately. That would provide a decent compromise I guess. |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:50:00 -
[239] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:SambaSol wrote:Completely removing the K162 spawn until someone has transited would be going a little too far, odds are 90% of incoming WH's from k-space would go unactivated. Solution: yet ANOTHER timer. How many timers are we suggesting adding to wormholes now? That is kind of true, it would lead to less people activating wormholes because they could warp to it and see what type of space it leads to without jumping. Of course, you could make it that warping will trigger a timer, which jumping would skip completely, causing the K162 to pop up immediately. That would provide a decent compromise I guess.
Indeed, although this would actually be so minor a change from the current mechanics that I'm not sure it would make any noticeable difference in gameplay. Perhaps combine this with my earlier idea?
Warp to WH, 5 minute timer to K162 spawning begins Transit WH, timer is reduced to 2 minutes or current timer, whichever is less Ship appears decloaked on far side of WH, cloaking disabled for 15ish seconds, still no K162 signature Ship cloaks, Sig still not scannable Ship warps off, more ships transit, or timer expires: K162 signature appears for all to see.
I'm not certain this would be a feasable solution from a programming standpoint, but from a gameplay standpoint it seems liveable at least... I'd rather just see an intentional delay in the base scanner refresh rate, ore sites returned to grav sites, and probes being a necessary part of life again. |
The Fong
Recreational Vehicle Enthusiasts Club - WH Chapter Corrosive.
3
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Posted - 2014.03.24 04:50:00 -
[240] - Quote
Thank you for tackling this Fozzie. It's an important issue, I'm glad I caught this thread as soon as it showed up on my overview.
Has the discussion at the dev/CSM level involved ore sites post-Odyssey or has it been primarily concerned with K162s? Should ore sites on the overview be considered topical for purposes of this thread?
It may sound shallow, but as a soon to be cap pilot I need ore to build caps. In my mind, these two topics are connected.
I want candy, bubble gum, and taffy. Dreadnoughts, carriers, and Rorquals. Skip to the sweet shop with my sweetheart Sandy.
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