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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
ZergRushJohnny
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
2
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Posted - 2014.03.23 20:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
My initial thought is that I would be fine removeing them from the sensor overlay, and make them not-instantly available to be seen on the cosmic sigs list in the scanner window. However, they could still be seen with a probe scan.
I wouldn't want them removed from probe view, this would change the entire dynamic of navigating wormhole space, restricting a lot of our chains because people couldn't probe down the exits (or even know they are there). There's benefits when it comes to ganking sure, but I think it would be too much of a pain in the arse. Not to mention people actively keeping an eye out should be rewarded.
Besides, I don't really care if people are alerted to my presence because they are vigilant (probe spamming), but instantly appearing (current system) might be a little obvious and lazy.
On the other hand, if it didn't appear on the scanner list right away, but you were able to probe it down, you would know instantly what signatures were k162 and which weren't.
Really I'm personally find with the current system though. |
Klarion Sythis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
241
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Posted - 2014.03.23 20:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Proclus Diadochu wrote:Having a PVP fleet on standby incase you are dropped seems like one of the counter options I'd imagine you are eluding, however this requires numbers, and smaller groups won't be able to achieve this counter. This idea will make lower class wormholers struggle to find any reasonable counter to a gank.
This idea is great to catch the C5/C6 capital escalating farmers and would definitely harm their game, but the other wormhole residents throughout the area, and the larger picture has to be seen. What other counters could be considered that would make this change viable? I can add 2 more ideas off the top of my head:
System size and celestial layout are already considerations when choosing a home. If you get a small system, it's easier to have a single character using D-Scan looking for new scouts. Bigger systems make it harder to find your ratters, but also harder to find their scouts. It's not unreasonable to think that anyone running sites would spread their alts out to be mashing D-Scan. This is EVE, and people go to pretty impressive lengths once they need to.
The other thing is that a capital escalation fleet can still be fit and positioned to be a force to be reckoned with. Mobile depots also help so your whole capital group doesn't have to sit on top of each other for carrier refits. You can shield tank your dreads instead of the single rep armor setups that die in a fire when dropped. Foolproof? No. But to say there's nothing that can be done isn't true either.
As for smaller class holes, I admit I have no experience there. I'm sure the same principles apply, but maybe that's a good argument for the sig delay scaling with wormhole class. |
Angsty Teenager
Broski North Black Legion.
256
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Posted - 2014.03.23 20:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
Yes 100% this would be great fozzie. Many people seem to think that it wouldn't be fair to people running sites or whatever in wormholes, but in reality running sites right now is pretty much a zero risk affair, and even prior to sigs being shown immediately on the probe scanner, with just a core scanner probe at 64 AU you could achieve the same thing. Granted you are still subject to logoff traps, but it's pretty much risk free pve. |
Sylvanium Orlenard
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
38
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Posted - 2014.03.23 20:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
If this change goes through, then I suspect that most WH dwelers, myself included, will start spamming combat probe scan, but more importantly combat probe scan for ships.
This most definitally forces the residents / farmers to be active and on the ball, it adds the extra hassle of having to ignore you own fleet and whatever towers are on Combat Probe Scan at the start of the farming op and then forces them to actively combat probe scan the entire system. Any new ship appears on combat probe scan forces an ivestigation if you wish to remain safe. This methot would work for any non-covert ops ships, which would probably change the ganking wormhole meta to cloaky T3s, recons, and the SOE frigates and cruisers. Ships that don't have as much fire power then the defenders.
In short I like the proposed change, I like what new ganking meta this would introduce and I love the fact that defenders whom are on the ball would actually be rewarded for being on the ball, vs the current "laissez-faires" attitude that the current mechanics promote. The only thing I ask is that ship / POS / POS module names (as in the names the players give these items) be displayable on the combat probe scan, which would make the job of ignoring ships signatures a lot easier but still require a non-insignificant amount of work. |
Seelen Jager
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
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Posted - 2014.03.23 20:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
Just go back to having to probe all wormhole sigs. Having some arbitrary delay is just dumb.
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
265
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
My personal view is if you are actively looking for sigs (have probes out and hitting scan every 20 or 30 second). Then you should see new sigs appear. I don't like the idea of a delay on it appearing. I do however want them instantly appearing on the overview gone. You should have to work for your intel. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Klarion Sythis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
242
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Schwa Nuts wrote:I completely disagree with the notion that you can farm wormholes nearly risk free. Twice in two months I've lost my C5 capital fleet to logoff traps, and I had friends evicted from theirs just a few weeks ago. The merits of the change I'm still vascillating on, but the statement that its nearly risk free to farm wormholes is, in my opinion, just not true.
There seems to be a lot of angry ranting from gankers who feel like they should be given as many advantages as possible in order to win a fight. If there is enough preparation on the side of those looking for the fight, they have, as it stands, a pretty clear advantage already. To be honest, I think that has a lot to do with your corp tag. Not even necessarily because GRR Goons, but because you're clearly not there to live there, you're there to farm, with capitals, without backup. You're a prime target for seeding. |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
494
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:05:00 -
[38] - Quote
Phone posting, excuse any typos. I feel this goes too far the other way. Before odyssey, a "defending" Corp could watchfor new wormholes, but they'd need to have a dedicated prober (or probes launched, at least) and actively scan for new signatures. With odyssey, the need for probes or to scan was removed, meaning the little effort involved was essentially gone (though you still need to watch the result window) .This proposed change means the "defending" Corp now has 0 way to identify a new incoming wormhole. Not even with a tonne of effort, there's simply no way to find it. It's gone from being too easy to literally impossible. Unfortunately the only solution Ihave is to disable the discovery scanner in wspace outright, reverting it to pre odyssey (this is something I've wanted for a long time regardless)
My 2 cents. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes
Twitter - TG_3 |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence
13
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
I would like to see it go back to pre-patch. This New mechanic is a ""dumbing Down" of W space. I feel that you should have to have probes out and actively scanning to see new sigs. If we Are Addressing making it too safe to run sleeper sights in wh space Then at the same time You might look at local in null sec and a delay on local
How many times have your scouts jumped to null sec and you see a carrier running sights and he warps directly off because you show up in local actually b4 you go through your session change? Maybe we should delay local as well in null sec since it is not a "safe" area and they should not be able to "safely" run sights and farm isk and it would reduce the number of "bots" running sights as they die off. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
337
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
Those willing to put in effort should be rewarded. Right now, it's too easy for people to sit back and PvE in peace while watching for new sigs that appear the moment a potential hostile initiates warp on their side. Someone actively probing should see it immediately. That's the difference: active vs passive.
It's also too easy for the ganking entities to fly to the random ore sites because they no longer require scanning. I very much like not having to scan the Grav sites anymore, as it cuts down on time to categorize all the sigs in a system, but it throws a major advantage toward the prospective ganker.
Things are out of balance in both directions.
- Sigs should be delayed by 5 minutes from appearing in the scanner window, but visible immediately via probes - Ore sites in W-space should be returned to signatures instead of anomalies
Let people in W-space be punished or rewarded based on the effort they put into the game. It's W-space, not Nullsec. Things are different here.
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Arkon Olacar
Blue-Fire
317
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Who the hell are Rura-Penthe and why have they declared a posting CTA on this thread? Warping to zero |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
245
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:24:00 -
[42] - Quote
I disagree with this idea entirely.
The hunter and the hunted should have equal opportunity at intel. As it sits right now, when people are engaged in PVE in sites they are often "locked" by either NPC scrams or by siege / triage in higher class holes.
They are already at a disadvantage, not to mention that the hostiles have the element of surprise and no one will jump an unsuspecting enemy without knowing they have overwhelming firepower and can entirely eliminate the opposing force with little to no risk.
In this same vein, lets not forget the issues with hostiles logging out entire fleets in an unsuspecting groups wormhole, unable to be detected and having the ability to login and gank the defenders without more then a moments notice. Imagine sieging an enemies castle in the middle ages, sneaking your forces up to the main gates every night in the cover of darkness and then magically waving your wand to hide them while you bring in more troops the next night.
This is also hugely unbalanced in the attackers favor with almost no counter-balance to the tactic (such as logged off ships at least presenting an un-scannable signature)
The defender in almost every scenario is easy prey to the even incompetent attacker, who only needs to asses the situation for a fleeting moment before engaging. Yes, the defender does have the ability to bring higher mass (and hopefully higher ability) ships to the battle, but we all know that the element of surprise completely negates that ability (and often times the defenders are podded out of the WH entirely during the engagement).
My opinion is the attacker and the defender need to be both balanced equally in their ability to gather intel, not make the situation more one sided then it already is. -A- Space Rental Program https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4163928#post4163928 |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
138
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Removing them from the overlay but, like COSMOS sites, let them appear when probing - just like before Odyssey - should be OK. EVE Infolinks -+-áOld and new-áPortraits |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
80
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
Or you could just rip out the discovery overlay, which is a POS. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
340
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:28:00 -
[45] - Quote
This change would also allow safely rolling new statics you dont like. Imagine some "farmers" roll into some "pvpers". Currently, the "pvpers" have chance to scan the hole and ambush those "farmers" when they try to roll this unwanted static. Proposed change would give them perfectly safe window to crash without any possible interference. So this cuts both ways and one of them is making certain things safer, not riskier. W-Space Realtor |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
80
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:I disagree with this idea entirely.
The hunter and the hunted should have equal opportunity at intel. As it sits right now, when people are engaged in PVE in sites they are often "locked" by either NPC scrams or by siege / triage in higher class holes.
They are already at a disadvantage, not to mention that the hostiles have the element of surprise and no one will jump an unsuspecting enemy without knowing they have overwhelming firepower and can entirely eliminate the opposing force with little to no risk.
In this same vein, lets not forget the issues with hostiles logging out entire fleets in an unsuspecting groups wormhole, unable to be detected and having the ability to login and gank the defenders without more then a moments notice. Imagine sieging an enemies castle in the middle ages, sneaking your forces up to the main gates every night in the cover of darkness and then magically waving your wand to hide them while you bring in more troops the next night.
This is also hugely unbalanced in the attackers favor with almost no counter-balance to the tactic (such as logged off ships at least presenting an un-scannable signature)
The defender in almost every scenario is easy prey to the even incompetent attacker, who only needs to asses the situation for a fleeting moment before engaging. Yes, the defender does have the ability to bring higher mass (and hopefully higher ability) ships to the battle, but we all know that the element of surprise completely negates that ability (and often times the defenders are podded out of the WH entirely during the engagement).
My opinion is the attacker and the defender need to be both balanced equally in their ability to gather intel, not make the situation more one sided then it already is.
If you wanted to farm safely maybe you should go check out some of that space you're renting out in your signature. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Ssieth
Tenebras Exteriores Dominatus Atrum Mortis
12
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sounds like a dreadful idea.
Noone gets any less safe as all you have to do is spam probes to detect a new K162. So rather than adding excitement and dynamism to the game (as most folks want) it adds a tedious new role of probe-spammer to the list of things w-space corps need to maintain,
Nice thought. But it won't work in practice. |
Admiral Douros
Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall
32
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
As a wormhole dweller who has lost 3 capital fleets to ganks within the last 6 months, I completely disagree with this change. It's already dangerous enough without delaying K162 visibility. We've been able to avoid ganks a couple times by noticing a new sig pop up, but we've also been caught during sites by well-organized fleets who open the K162 and immediately jump through and throw out combat probes.
I'm not sure why you want to make wspace more dangerous than it already is. The amount of isk that is invested in a capital escalation fleet is higher than any other PVE activity in the game. People can move in while you're asleep and setup the perfect logoff trap. People can come in through a K162 and close it with dreads before it even shows up on your sig list.
If you are trying to significantly lower the number of people who live in wormholes, this is the way to do it. You're trying to create more PVP content, which I admire, but in my opinion this will have the opposite effect. Smaller corps like mine are already at a huge disadvantage and are getting tired of being ganked. A huge change like this is going to be the last straw that forces me to close up shop and leave wspace forever. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3153
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Nah I don't think so. As James noted it really leaves no choice of any sort, no warning.
Instead, leave the overlay as is, but remove the ability to loot and salvage sleeper wrecks. In its place create a new structure that does it for you but has a relatively lengthy access time, say five minutes or so, long enough that if someone does come through that newly spawned hole, they'll find ya. Then you do have the choice to flee, but doing so means losing what you've made farming.
In essence I'm proposing a wormhole version of the ESS, except because I always hear wormholers telling me how much more hardcore than anyone else they are, it's mandatory, keeps 100% of earnings in it, and doesn't actually confer any additional bonus.
Kidding. Or am I?
Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
0
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:35:00 -
[50] - Quote
Im sorry probe spam takes a toon with skills a slot on a ship probes in space and clicking a button over and over again. Discovery scanner requires nothing. One is a problem one is the way things have always been im missing why the hell u would nerf probes?? who the hell told u probe spam was a problem???? as much as a problem as d-scan spam if ur trying to kill someone yeah. So why don't we just nerf the fuckin d-scan too so ships don't show up for 2 mins. This is a terrible idea please just fix the discovery scanner and leave probes the hell alone. You guys broke this **** probe spam was never considered a problem by anyone.....fix what u broke and leave probes alone ffs. Just leave WH Alone fix the discover scan and leave us alone there are literally 1000s of broken things in the game WH isn't one of them just go make new space and leave us alone after u fix discovery scan please. |
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Slumber
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
8
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:35:00 -
[51] - Quote
If this is going to be implemented then it should be the same the other way also and have a delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec.
I believe it will enhance the options for seeding capitals as stated earlier in the thread.
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Admiral Douros
Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall
32
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:35:00 -
[52] - Quote
Angsty Teenager wrote:Yes 100% this would be great fozzie. Many people seem to think that it wouldn't be fair to people running sites or whatever in wormholes, but in reality running sites right now is pretty much a zero risk affair, and even prior to sigs being shown immediately on the probe scanner, with just a core scanner probe at 64 AU you could achieve the same thing. Granted you are still subject to logoff traps, but it's pretty much risk free pve.
Says the guy who kills capital escalation fleets for a living. You killed my corp's escalation fleet twice and just killed my friend's fleet the other day. This is hardly "risk-free PVE". Granted, a lot of days are quiet and uneventful PVP-wise, but they're made up for by days when you get dunked by either a logoff trap or a big fleet jumping through a fresh K162. |
Sylvanium Orlenard
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
38
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:36:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ssieth wrote:Sounds like a dreadful idea.
Noone gets any less safe as all you have to do is spam probes to detect a new K162. So rather than adding excitement and dynamism to the game (as most folks want) it adds a tedious new role of probe-spammer to the list of things w-space corps need to maintain,
Nice thought. But it won't work in practice.
You mean it returns it to like it was per-odyssey, which was not horrible . . . |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's Infinite Anarchy
118
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
Yes remove instant sig overlay or delay it or whatever you want.
No do not remove probable changes in sigs.
You broke it CCP (basically blanket application K space rules to W space) so please don't make it sound like it was an iteration that ever considered the chosen few in WH's.
It was working just fine. The lazy got caught and the prudent (No two-step not risk-aversed or chicken ***** or however you want to spin the titles from on high, the PRUDENT!) had a chance of getting away. There was already the risk that the guy with the probes hit cycle just before the new K appeared or went to the bathroom but making it a delayed mechanic is just ....... contrived and that's for K space.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
AdW
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Arkon Olacar
Blue-Fire
320
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:37:00 -
[55] - Quote
Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears. Warping to zero |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
25
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
I want to say the problem is the dumbing down of the game. The latest introduction of open my scanner and oh look there are all the sigs killed exploration and reduced the gank opportunity.
This proposal by CCP is really saying we made a mistake. Seems the right answer is to take a step back, get rid of the instant overview of sigs and make people have a probe out to actively scan the system while they run sites. Make those ore sites have to be scanned down. GIve good scanning skills and scouting a reward. If we have to spam the probes so be it. that is being proative and trying to mitagate the risk. Mitagating risk should be allowed.
This proposal seems to be too far the other direction. It makes it so large WH entities are the only way to go so you can simply outblob others. As for no risk... tell that to the moros driver that gave us a moros this week. It was really kind of him, it would seem that they were not being proactive at all.
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AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
81
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:38:00 -
[57] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.
If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
0
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey. live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol |
Admiral Douros
Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall
35
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.
This is a great compromise and removes a very annoying mechanic. |
Seelen Jager
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
4
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Posted - 2014.03.23 21:44:00 -
[60] - Quote
Deeone wrote:AutumnWind1983 wrote:mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey. live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol
If you want to tackle my farming fleet in a cloaky t3 go ahead, I'd love to watch it melt under 90% webs and dread guns.
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