Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 29 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9497
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.
We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent). We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay.
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.
Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely. Thanks! -Fozzie Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Ali Aras
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
642
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Is "appears on probe scans but not sensor overlay" not possible?
e: I can't read. It seems like "spam probes" is a sort of interesting "vigilance" option, (akin to spamming d-scan, which is already a thing)-- the careless get caught, the careful can still avoid things. OTOH, while I'm interested in this, I'm not a full-time wormholer, so I'll butt out :P http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9497
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote:Is "appears on probe scans but not sensor overlay" not possible?
Yes, it's very possible, but it doesn't handle the problem ass comprehensively as this.
We talked about this at the summit, remember? Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Ali Aras
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
642
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm bad at reading :( See edit. http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
6067
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
This is a rather drastic change to the balance equations and the way wormhole space is navigated, no longer could K162s be reliably expected as methods of travel, system security would become a nightmare, wormhole travel 'direction' would become one way, down the chain.
One suggestion that I think would balance it decently: Make the signature appear when someone warps to the site. This means, if a scout K162s in, they can warp off the wormhole without the wormhole being detected, its when they go back that a signature is generated.
Torn from grace, gotta find your faith or the devils gonna claim your soul
|
James Arget
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
284
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'll get my full post written out when this townhall is over, saving my spot in line for now. CSM 8 Representative
http://csm8.org |
Uncle Traveling Matt
Dragonfire Industries Weyr Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
To me this potential change reaks of another hi-sec type nerf to discourage "safe" areas of resource gathering and sig farming. IMHO, there is enough danger presented as there are always WH entrances and exits that need to be scouted/monitored while doing anything basically.
I dissaprove.
UTM
|
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9497
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.
We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent). We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.
Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely. Thanks! -Fozzie
Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
mkint
1090
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
lol, first you add sensor overlay, then you make it mandatory because 90% of your players would shut it off altogether and that doesn't look good on a resume, and now you're realizing it's causing problems? Who'da thunk.
I'm not a WH dweller, but it makes sense to me to have no sensor overlay at all outside of empire space or maybe even have it highsec-only, especially in w-space. It removes the exploration part of exploration.
From a logical point of view, a wormhole is a wormhole. Why should it make a difference in what end it's being probed out? It's already leaning in favor of whoever's on the other side because they'll already be at 0m to the wormhole and the k162 side would still need to be probed out. The aggressors already have a time advantage.
edit: and isn't the no local supposed to be the make-it-easy-for-bored-nullbear-aggressors factor? Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
Quincy Thibaud
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
This is good. I approve.
While you're at it, how about making ships that enter a null or low sec system from a WH in that system have a delayed appearance in local?
|
|
Darren Fox
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
31
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Thank you for considering this. Today it is too easy to passively catch K162s. I am not sure I'd like the K162 being too delayed from probes though. How about 2 minute delay before it can be scanned down and 4 minutes before overlay shows it? |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4496
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1313
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
By removing the option for probing and seeing a signature on scan, I feel that this will surely increase the risks and danger to wormholes. That being said, I'm of the opinion that making probing options delayed for any amount of time would unbalance the mechanic. If you can't scan, probe, see, or anything of a K162, then what option does the receiving end have?
This option gives the leg up to the aggressor without providing an alternative to those who are proactive on the receiving end of a wormhole. I am all for changing the discovery scanner to only allow an update upon session change or probing for new signatures, but making a K162 unprobable is not an option I support, Fozzie :)
Thanks for pushing discussion from the CCP side, you are doing good things. Let's go ahead and require probing to be required for Grav sites again. That is a fix that would help wormholes too. Thanks CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
1362
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Something has to be done. But just when miners were getting excited about the possibilities of wh mining again based on compression arrays, now they will flee because their ore is all in anoms. I love ganking me some miners, but it hardly seems fair to leave them as sitting ducks for 2 minutes. They might as well warp to anom and set the self destruct timer. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |
Klarion Sythis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
241
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
I like the change.
Wormholes are billed as the "dangerous unknown" part of EVE and this would get some of that feel back.
Specifically, I like the idea of delaying k162s from being probed for a period of time, and delay their appearance on the discovery scanner for a longer period of time. There are still ways to get some advance warning even if you can't probe down the sig, so I'm ok with not returning us to a previously mastered status quo. |
Alytus
ROC Deep Space The ROC
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
It would present more gank targets for sure. I'm all for the idea of making unknown space a bit more so, but asynchrony of information will lead to combat only when it heavily favors the party with the information. So in most cases that will lead to more dead ratters. Not entirely opposed to the idea, I just want to be honest about what kind of conflict it will create.
Perhaps there are other conflict drivers to consider? Though that is almost certainly outside the scope of this proposal. |
Nyx STeeLGamers
Murderous Inc
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
I don't know how this change in k162 appearance delay will affect the quality of pvp for entities already willing to fight. I do know that this will lead to a decrease in Wh population for people living just for pve. The same sort of thing happened to c6 space where big groups purged pve entities in c6's. Don't think c6 is better off as a result. From what you are proposinf ccp fozzie, the quality of consensual pvp will remain unchanged but Wh ganking will increase. I'm not sure that's best for W-space. But hey, if you go through with this, we'll adapt. |
Klarion Sythis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
241
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:This is a rather drastic change to the balance equations and the way wormhole space is navigated, no longer could K162s be reliably expected as methods of travel, system security would become a nightmare, wormhole travel 'direction' would become one way, down the chain.
One suggestion that I think would balance it decently: Make the signature appear when someone warps to the site. This means, if a scout K162s in, they can warp off the wormhole without the wormhole being detected, its when they go back that a signature is generated.
I think you've drastically missed what this change is talking about. K162s will still exist, can still be probed, and can still be navigated. There's just some undecided amount of delay before you can do so. Probably irrelevant in most cases except in the if a hostile fleet is already formed up on the other side.
Uncle Traveling Matt wrote:To me this potential change reaks of another hi-sec type nerf to discourage "safe" areas of resource gathering and sig farming. IMHO, there is enough danger presented as there are always WH entrances and exits that need to be scouted/monitored while doing anything basically.
I dissaprove.
UTM
Wormhole space is not highsec and should not be anything like it. There are other areas of space that offer varying degrees of safety, but wormhole space was never billed as being anything other than the most dangerous of space. |
Kiri Dasmijn
4 Marketeers Rura-Penthe
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Since I am a wormhole dweller, I will respond.
Not sure why the original changes to the Scanner Overlay were made to begin with. The old way is closer to what you are proposing.
In either case, I would remove all signatures as populating automatically in a wormhole. All would require a scan. (That's the old way, I suppose?). That was more 'dangerous'.
As for a delay, just plain silly. Breaks logic. I would not make them populate into the scanner without a scan. But we currently have this Sensor Overlay. So it only works in Hi/low/null sec? Breaks logic again.
If a delay is coming irregardless, then either dependent on mass, and/or number of activations.
The proposed change makes vigilance pointless and seems to punish those that are. Or the reverse, it just paves the way for free sneak attacks that are already pretty easy considering the probe scanner list populates everything except data/relic/wormholes.
In the above I am referencing Scanner Overlay and Probe Scan List separetely.
Wormhole PvP is not centered around detection (well, sort of but not in the way you think) in either case, it is centered around the life/mass/polarization of a womrhole. 99% of battles are on the wormhole, not out in the system. Ships don't warp off to that ore site to bait you, they wait at the hole with support on the other side. So doubt even if this was implimented things would change, except the bait would have to wait X time to be noticed. |
Intana Kreis
The Red Circle Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Klarion Sythis wrote: I think you've drastically missed what this change is talking about. K162s will still exist, can still be probed, and can still be navigated. There's just some undecided amount of delay before you can do so. Probably irrelevant in most cases except in the if a hostile fleet is already formed up on the other side.
The problem is not in the mechanic in and of itself - but in the fact that there is no good counter at all. Which is why the earlier suggestions of not allowing them to be passively detected - but allowing active detection seems to be better.
|
|
Schwa Nuts
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Two step wrote:Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time.
I completely disagree with the notion that you can farm wormholes nearly risk free. Twice in two months I've lost my C5 capital fleet to logoff traps, and I had friends evicted from theirs just a few weeks ago. The merits of the change I'm still vascillating on, but the statement that its nearly risk free to farm wormholes is, in my opinion, just not true.
There seems to be a lot of angry ranting from gankers who feel like they should be given as many advantages as possible in order to win a fight. If there is enough preparation on the side of those looking for the fight, they have, as it stands, a pretty clear advantage already. |
Nyx STeeLGamers
Murderous Inc
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you really would like to make wormholes more fun and pvp oriented CCP Fozzie then please change the mechanic where a wormhole doesn't spawn on the other side till its warped to. Change it to spawning on both sides the minute it appears on static side. This is a much better change than delaying it on the k162 side. |
Raddan Eldre'Thalas
4 Marketeers Rura-Penthe
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
I have to disagree with this change,
Wormholes are already dangerous, even if your on your A-game the situation can change in a matter of moments. Most of the hunting that takes place in wormholes is done directly on the hole. Now we just have a bunch of ships sitting around a hole for X-amount of minutes waiting for the sig to pop up.
pushing a delay timer will seriously unbalance the receiving end of a K162. If you want to increase the PvP in wormholes then give people a reason to come into a wormhole rather than chase them out, like adding content to attract visitors. Bringing in more people to wormholes will surely increase the PvP. |
Kurt Konrad Rimfrost
4 Marketeers Rura-Penthe
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
These proposed changes concern me
I do live in a wormhole, and I have traveled into other parts of wormhole space. As of right now, from my experience, I do not feel that there is "little risk" without consistent and careful scouting of your own wormhole. I don't believe that those who actively plan ahead and run recon should be penalized for their play style because roaming fleets looking for pvp can't catch the well organized corporation off guard.
We have come across wormholes plenty of times where people where running PI and doing their own thing and never even noticed that they had an incoming hole. Why? because they aren't actively keeping an eye out. As of right now, you only know you have an incoming hole if you've scanned everything else down so you know which is the new signature that has shown up on scans. Then you still have to scan it down to find out if it's a wormhole or just a gas site that has spawned. Womhole dwellers who actively keep their Combat Anomaly's clear can make spotting sigs easier, but they still have to track and label their comsic signatures.
But to be fair, here are a couple of suggestions that might help with those who are of a different opinion:
- classify all ore and combat sites within W-space as Cosmic Signatures so that everything in womrhole space MUST be scanned. This away there are many more signatures that must actively be accounted for.
- Disable the Sensor Overlay in W-Space without changing the Probe Scanner mechanics
- IF you change the timing on any of the Cosmic Signature apperances, make the timing relevant to the level of the wormhole. For istance, C1 and C2 are not effected by changes, but C3 and C4 have a slight delay (less than a minute) while C5 and C6 can have a larger delay. HOWEVER, I an personally not in favor of changing this mechanic at all.
- Increase the reasons for people to come to W-Space in the first place. Higher traffic through W-Space equals more chances of PvP
|
Kastsion Strax
4 Marketeers Rura-Penthe
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
WH are a dangerous place already, do you really think you need to complicate that area of the game further? Also I think a tunnel though space time tearing open would be a fairly significant cosmic event at the level of tech the EVE universe seems to exist at I would say its safe to bet that much energy would not go unnoticed.
Allow us to intelligently defend our selves out there CCP, not every thing needs to be a meat grinder. |
Klarion Sythis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
241
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
Intana Kreis wrote:Klarion Sythis wrote: I think you've drastically missed what this change is talking about. K162s will still exist, can still be probed, and can still be navigated. There's just some undecided amount of delay before you can do so. Probably irrelevant in most cases except in the if a hostile fleet is already formed up on the other side.
The problem is not in the mechanic in and of itself - but in the fact that there is no good counter at all. Which is why the earlier suggestions of not allowing them to be passively detected - but allowing active detection seems to be better. Allowing active detection or not during the delay is a valid debate, but my response above was aimed at the apparent misconception that k162s simply cannot be found...or something. The person's concerns I was addressing seemed to be based in misunderstanding.
I'm still in favor of even a probing delay, but I understand that it represents a significant risk increase and perhaps everyone wouldn't care for that. There are still things you can do to be better prepared for any chain rolling fleets though, so it isn't totally without counters. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
418
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Not a fan of any system that does not permit an active player to detect incoming threats.
Removal of auto update without probes? Go ahead.
Continuing ability to use probes to detect an incoming WH as soon as it spawns? Definately.
But If a party can get open up a WH, potentially far from any other celestial, then bring people into system for several minutes before it appears on system scan or probe scan, that really tilts things far too far in the aggressors favor.
Having alts in within dscan range of every celestial after closing all incoming holes and rolling static, then constantly spamming dscan on every one and hoping that they don't get a cloaky in between 2 second pings should not be a requirement for best possible safety. (Barring having been previously seeded)
Just my two cents. |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1313
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
Klarion Sythis wrote:Intana Kreis wrote:Klarion Sythis wrote: I think you've drastically missed what this change is talking about. K162s will still exist, can still be probed, and can still be navigated. There's just some undecided amount of delay before you can do so. Probably irrelevant in most cases except in the if a hostile fleet is already formed up on the other side.
The problem is not in the mechanic in and of itself - but in the fact that there is no good counter at all. Which is why the earlier suggestions of not allowing them to be passively detected - but allowing active detection seems to be better. Allowing active detection or not during the delay is a valid debate, but my response above was aimed at the apparent misconception that k162s simply cannot be found...or something. The person's concerns I was addressing seemed to be based in misunderstanding. I'm still in favor of even a probing delay, but I understand that it represents a significant risk increase and perhaps everyone wouldn't care for that. There are still things you can do to be better prepared for any chain rolling fleets though, so it isn't totally without counters.
Having a PVP fleet on standby incase you are dropped seems like one of the counter options I'd imagine you are eluding, however this requires numbers, and smaller groups won't be able to achieve this counter. This idea will make lower class wormholers struggle to find any reasonable counter to a gank.
This idea is great to catch the C5/C6 capital escalating farmers and would definitely harm their game, but the other wormhole residents throughout the area, and the larger picture has to be seen. What other counters could be considered that would make this change viable? CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
336
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
I disagree with there being no way of knowing whether there is a new sig or not. If "defenders" are on the ball and actively looking for incoming wormholes, they should be allowed to find them. Such blanket delay would also make seeding practically uncounterable.
imho the delay should be on the overlay and self-populating sig list, not when using probes (5-15 minutes?)
More helpful would be automatically spawning both sides of new holes, ie. no "not warping to the static" to keep K162 unspawned.... and delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec, pretty please. W-Space Realtor |
Enta en Bauldry
EVE University Ivy League
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
TLDR: dislike
I'll preface this by saying I'm all for shaking up W-Space. Be it through added randomization, new content or just changes to mechanics considered stable.
A two minute delay essentially provides two minutes of near-absolute(except for the split-second Dscan) cover for intel gathering and preparation for the entry side. In order to turn this into an advantage you need unfriendly people in space, assuming day-to-day business. This mostly influences ganks or gives the entry side a chance to quickly roll the hole if they end up connecting to entities they don't wish to.
W-Space often doesn't have enough targets, which seems to be a stated by many people from all areas of it, except for carebears and daytrippers. If this change does increase the amount of ganks in the long run anybody who doesn't like the new risk/reward pattern will pack up and leave. They don't necessarily have to be carebears. Ex: If a C3 corp can't fund its activities anymore because they lose too many assets to ganks instead of consensual or at least interesting PvP they leave. This will generate a new equilibrium where you'll probably end up getting a similar amount of PvP compared to now, just more holes will be empty. I'll let the C5-C6 guys speak for their own thing but farming in low-end WHs take quite a long time, where(assuming C3) sites only generate ~45M in loot. I sincerely believe that getting more corps into W-Space is the answer to the "not enough action" problem, which IMO can only be solved through making W-Space more interesting.
As for the opportunity to quickly roll the fresh hole: if you get connected to somebody you don't like, too bad. Deal with it or actually risk your battleship(low class) or dread(C5-6) to get rid of them. |
|
ZergRushJohnny
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
My initial thought is that I would be fine removeing them from the sensor overlay, and make them not-instantly available to be seen on the cosmic sigs list in the scanner window. However, they could still be seen with a probe scan.
I wouldn't want them removed from probe view, this would change the entire dynamic of navigating wormhole space, restricting a lot of our chains because people couldn't probe down the exits (or even know they are there). There's benefits when it comes to ganking sure, but I think it would be too much of a pain in the arse. Not to mention people actively keeping an eye out should be rewarded.
Besides, I don't really care if people are alerted to my presence because they are vigilant (probe spamming), but instantly appearing (current system) might be a little obvious and lazy.
On the other hand, if it didn't appear on the scanner list right away, but you were able to probe it down, you would know instantly what signatures were k162 and which weren't.
Really I'm personally find with the current system though. |
Klarion Sythis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
241
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Proclus Diadochu wrote:Having a PVP fleet on standby incase you are dropped seems like one of the counter options I'd imagine you are eluding, however this requires numbers, and smaller groups won't be able to achieve this counter. This idea will make lower class wormholers struggle to find any reasonable counter to a gank.
This idea is great to catch the C5/C6 capital escalating farmers and would definitely harm their game, but the other wormhole residents throughout the area, and the larger picture has to be seen. What other counters could be considered that would make this change viable? I can add 2 more ideas off the top of my head:
System size and celestial layout are already considerations when choosing a home. If you get a small system, it's easier to have a single character using D-Scan looking for new scouts. Bigger systems make it harder to find your ratters, but also harder to find their scouts. It's not unreasonable to think that anyone running sites would spread their alts out to be mashing D-Scan. This is EVE, and people go to pretty impressive lengths once they need to.
The other thing is that a capital escalation fleet can still be fit and positioned to be a force to be reckoned with. Mobile depots also help so your whole capital group doesn't have to sit on top of each other for carrier refits. You can shield tank your dreads instead of the single rep armor setups that die in a fire when dropped. Foolproof? No. But to say there's nothing that can be done isn't true either.
As for smaller class holes, I admit I have no experience there. I'm sure the same principles apply, but maybe that's a good argument for the sig delay scaling with wormhole class. |
Angsty Teenager
Broski North Black Legion.
256
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
Yes 100% this would be great fozzie. Many people seem to think that it wouldn't be fair to people running sites or whatever in wormholes, but in reality running sites right now is pretty much a zero risk affair, and even prior to sigs being shown immediately on the probe scanner, with just a core scanner probe at 64 AU you could achieve the same thing. Granted you are still subject to logoff traps, but it's pretty much risk free pve. |
Sylvanium Orlenard
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
If this change goes through, then I suspect that most WH dwelers, myself included, will start spamming combat probe scan, but more importantly combat probe scan for ships.
This most definitally forces the residents / farmers to be active and on the ball, it adds the extra hassle of having to ignore you own fleet and whatever towers are on Combat Probe Scan at the start of the farming op and then forces them to actively combat probe scan the entire system. Any new ship appears on combat probe scan forces an ivestigation if you wish to remain safe. This methot would work for any non-covert ops ships, which would probably change the ganking wormhole meta to cloaky T3s, recons, and the SOE frigates and cruisers. Ships that don't have as much fire power then the defenders.
In short I like the proposed change, I like what new ganking meta this would introduce and I love the fact that defenders whom are on the ball would actually be rewarded for being on the ball, vs the current "laissez-faires" attitude that the current mechanics promote. The only thing I ask is that ship / POS / POS module names (as in the names the players give these items) be displayable on the combat probe scan, which would make the job of ignoring ships signatures a lot easier but still require a non-insignificant amount of work. |
Seelen Jager
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 20:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
Just go back to having to probe all wormhole sigs. Having some arbitrary delay is just dumb.
|
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
265
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
My personal view is if you are actively looking for sigs (have probes out and hitting scan every 20 or 30 second). Then you should see new sigs appear. I don't like the idea of a delay on it appearing. I do however want them instantly appearing on the overview gone. You should have to work for your intel. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Klarion Sythis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
242
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Schwa Nuts wrote:I completely disagree with the notion that you can farm wormholes nearly risk free. Twice in two months I've lost my C5 capital fleet to logoff traps, and I had friends evicted from theirs just a few weeks ago. The merits of the change I'm still vascillating on, but the statement that its nearly risk free to farm wormholes is, in my opinion, just not true.
There seems to be a lot of angry ranting from gankers who feel like they should be given as many advantages as possible in order to win a fight. If there is enough preparation on the side of those looking for the fight, they have, as it stands, a pretty clear advantage already. To be honest, I think that has a lot to do with your corp tag. Not even necessarily because GRR Goons, but because you're clearly not there to live there, you're there to farm, with capitals, without backup. You're a prime target for seeding. |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
494
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:05:00 -
[38] - Quote
Phone posting, excuse any typos. I feel this goes too far the other way. Before odyssey, a "defending" Corp could watchfor new wormholes, but they'd need to have a dedicated prober (or probes launched, at least) and actively scan for new signatures. With odyssey, the need for probes or to scan was removed, meaning the little effort involved was essentially gone (though you still need to watch the result window) .This proposed change means the "defending" Corp now has 0 way to identify a new incoming wormhole. Not even with a tonne of effort, there's simply no way to find it. It's gone from being too easy to literally impossible. Unfortunately the only solution Ihave is to disable the discovery scanner in wspace outright, reverting it to pre odyssey (this is something I've wanted for a long time regardless)
My 2 cents. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes
Twitter - TG_3 |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
I would like to see it go back to pre-patch. This New mechanic is a ""dumbing Down" of W space. I feel that you should have to have probes out and actively scanning to see new sigs. If we Are Addressing making it too safe to run sleeper sights in wh space Then at the same time You might look at local in null sec and a delay on local
How many times have your scouts jumped to null sec and you see a carrier running sights and he warps directly off because you show up in local actually b4 you go through your session change? Maybe we should delay local as well in null sec since it is not a "safe" area and they should not be able to "safely" run sights and farm isk and it would reduce the number of "bots" running sights as they die off. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
337
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
Those willing to put in effort should be rewarded. Right now, it's too easy for people to sit back and PvE in peace while watching for new sigs that appear the moment a potential hostile initiates warp on their side. Someone actively probing should see it immediately. That's the difference: active vs passive.
It's also too easy for the ganking entities to fly to the random ore sites because they no longer require scanning. I very much like not having to scan the Grav sites anymore, as it cuts down on time to categorize all the sigs in a system, but it throws a major advantage toward the prospective ganker.
Things are out of balance in both directions.
- Sigs should be delayed by 5 minutes from appearing in the scanner window, but visible immediately via probes - Ore sites in W-space should be returned to signatures instead of anomalies
Let people in W-space be punished or rewarded based on the effort they put into the game. It's W-space, not Nullsec. Things are different here.
|
|
Arkon Olacar
Blue-Fire
317
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Who the hell are Rura-Penthe and why have they declared a posting CTA on this thread? Warping to zero |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
245
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:24:00 -
[42] - Quote
I disagree with this idea entirely.
The hunter and the hunted should have equal opportunity at intel. As it sits right now, when people are engaged in PVE in sites they are often "locked" by either NPC scrams or by siege / triage in higher class holes.
They are already at a disadvantage, not to mention that the hostiles have the element of surprise and no one will jump an unsuspecting enemy without knowing they have overwhelming firepower and can entirely eliminate the opposing force with little to no risk.
In this same vein, lets not forget the issues with hostiles logging out entire fleets in an unsuspecting groups wormhole, unable to be detected and having the ability to login and gank the defenders without more then a moments notice. Imagine sieging an enemies castle in the middle ages, sneaking your forces up to the main gates every night in the cover of darkness and then magically waving your wand to hide them while you bring in more troops the next night.
This is also hugely unbalanced in the attackers favor with almost no counter-balance to the tactic (such as logged off ships at least presenting an un-scannable signature)
The defender in almost every scenario is easy prey to the even incompetent attacker, who only needs to asses the situation for a fleeting moment before engaging. Yes, the defender does have the ability to bring higher mass (and hopefully higher ability) ships to the battle, but we all know that the element of surprise completely negates that ability (and often times the defenders are podded out of the WH entirely during the engagement).
My opinion is the attacker and the defender need to be both balanced equally in their ability to gather intel, not make the situation more one sided then it already is. -A- Space Rental Program https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4163928#post4163928 |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
138
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Removing them from the overlay but, like COSMOS sites, let them appear when probing - just like before Odyssey - should be OK. EVE Infolinks -+-áOld and new-áPortraits |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
80
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
Or you could just rip out the discovery overlay, which is a POS. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
340
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:28:00 -
[45] - Quote
This change would also allow safely rolling new statics you dont like. Imagine some "farmers" roll into some "pvpers". Currently, the "pvpers" have chance to scan the hole and ambush those "farmers" when they try to roll this unwanted static. Proposed change would give them perfectly safe window to crash without any possible interference. So this cuts both ways and one of them is making certain things safer, not riskier. W-Space Realtor |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
80
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:I disagree with this idea entirely.
The hunter and the hunted should have equal opportunity at intel. As it sits right now, when people are engaged in PVE in sites they are often "locked" by either NPC scrams or by siege / triage in higher class holes.
They are already at a disadvantage, not to mention that the hostiles have the element of surprise and no one will jump an unsuspecting enemy without knowing they have overwhelming firepower and can entirely eliminate the opposing force with little to no risk.
In this same vein, lets not forget the issues with hostiles logging out entire fleets in an unsuspecting groups wormhole, unable to be detected and having the ability to login and gank the defenders without more then a moments notice. Imagine sieging an enemies castle in the middle ages, sneaking your forces up to the main gates every night in the cover of darkness and then magically waving your wand to hide them while you bring in more troops the next night.
This is also hugely unbalanced in the attackers favor with almost no counter-balance to the tactic (such as logged off ships at least presenting an un-scannable signature)
The defender in almost every scenario is easy prey to the even incompetent attacker, who only needs to asses the situation for a fleeting moment before engaging. Yes, the defender does have the ability to bring higher mass (and hopefully higher ability) ships to the battle, but we all know that the element of surprise completely negates that ability (and often times the defenders are podded out of the WH entirely during the engagement).
My opinion is the attacker and the defender need to be both balanced equally in their ability to gather intel, not make the situation more one sided then it already is.
If you wanted to farm safely maybe you should go check out some of that space you're renting out in your signature. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Ssieth
Tenebras Exteriores Dominatus Atrum Mortis
12
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sounds like a dreadful idea.
Noone gets any less safe as all you have to do is spam probes to detect a new K162. So rather than adding excitement and dynamism to the game (as most folks want) it adds a tedious new role of probe-spammer to the list of things w-space corps need to maintain,
Nice thought. But it won't work in practice. |
Admiral Douros
Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall
32
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
As a wormhole dweller who has lost 3 capital fleets to ganks within the last 6 months, I completely disagree with this change. It's already dangerous enough without delaying K162 visibility. We've been able to avoid ganks a couple times by noticing a new sig pop up, but we've also been caught during sites by well-organized fleets who open the K162 and immediately jump through and throw out combat probes.
I'm not sure why you want to make wspace more dangerous than it already is. The amount of isk that is invested in a capital escalation fleet is higher than any other PVE activity in the game. People can move in while you're asleep and setup the perfect logoff trap. People can come in through a K162 and close it with dreads before it even shows up on your sig list.
If you are trying to significantly lower the number of people who live in wormholes, this is the way to do it. You're trying to create more PVP content, which I admire, but in my opinion this will have the opposite effect. Smaller corps like mine are already at a huge disadvantage and are getting tired of being ganked. A huge change like this is going to be the last straw that forces me to close up shop and leave wspace forever. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3153
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Nah I don't think so. As James noted it really leaves no choice of any sort, no warning.
Instead, leave the overlay as is, but remove the ability to loot and salvage sleeper wrecks. In its place create a new structure that does it for you but has a relatively lengthy access time, say five minutes or so, long enough that if someone does come through that newly spawned hole, they'll find ya. Then you do have the choice to flee, but doing so means losing what you've made farming.
In essence I'm proposing a wormhole version of the ESS, except because I always hear wormholers telling me how much more hardcore than anyone else they are, it's mandatory, keeps 100% of earnings in it, and doesn't actually confer any additional bonus.
Kidding. Or am I?
Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:35:00 -
[50] - Quote
Im sorry probe spam takes a toon with skills a slot on a ship probes in space and clicking a button over and over again. Discovery scanner requires nothing. One is a problem one is the way things have always been im missing why the hell u would nerf probes?? who the hell told u probe spam was a problem???? as much as a problem as d-scan spam if ur trying to kill someone yeah. So why don't we just nerf the fuckin d-scan too so ships don't show up for 2 mins. This is a terrible idea please just fix the discovery scanner and leave probes the hell alone. You guys broke this **** probe spam was never considered a problem by anyone.....fix what u broke and leave probes alone ffs. Just leave WH Alone fix the discover scan and leave us alone there are literally 1000s of broken things in the game WH isn't one of them just go make new space and leave us alone after u fix discovery scan please. |
|
Slumber
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:35:00 -
[51] - Quote
If this is going to be implemented then it should be the same the other way also and have a delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec.
I believe it will enhance the options for seeding capitals as stated earlier in the thread.
|
Admiral Douros
Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall
32
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:35:00 -
[52] - Quote
Angsty Teenager wrote:Yes 100% this would be great fozzie. Many people seem to think that it wouldn't be fair to people running sites or whatever in wormholes, but in reality running sites right now is pretty much a zero risk affair, and even prior to sigs being shown immediately on the probe scanner, with just a core scanner probe at 64 AU you could achieve the same thing. Granted you are still subject to logoff traps, but it's pretty much risk free pve.
Says the guy who kills capital escalation fleets for a living. You killed my corp's escalation fleet twice and just killed my friend's fleet the other day. This is hardly "risk-free PVE". Granted, a lot of days are quiet and uneventful PVP-wise, but they're made up for by days when you get dunked by either a logoff trap or a big fleet jumping through a fresh K162. |
Sylvanium Orlenard
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:36:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ssieth wrote:Sounds like a dreadful idea.
Noone gets any less safe as all you have to do is spam probes to detect a new K162. So rather than adding excitement and dynamism to the game (as most folks want) it adds a tedious new role of probe-spammer to the list of things w-space corps need to maintain,
Nice thought. But it won't work in practice.
You mean it returns it to like it was per-odyssey, which was not horrible . . . |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's Infinite Anarchy
118
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
Yes remove instant sig overlay or delay it or whatever you want.
No do not remove probable changes in sigs.
You broke it CCP (basically blanket application K space rules to W space) so please don't make it sound like it was an iteration that ever considered the chosen few in WH's.
It was working just fine. The lazy got caught and the prudent (No two-step not risk-aversed or chicken ***** or however you want to spin the titles from on high, the PRUDENT!) had a chance of getting away. There was already the risk that the guy with the probes hit cycle just before the new K appeared or went to the bathroom but making it a delayed mechanic is just ....... contrived and that's for K space.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
AdW
|
Arkon Olacar
Blue-Fire
320
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:37:00 -
[55] - Quote
Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears. Warping to zero |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
I want to say the problem is the dumbing down of the game. The latest introduction of open my scanner and oh look there are all the sigs killed exploration and reduced the gank opportunity.
This proposal by CCP is really saying we made a mistake. Seems the right answer is to take a step back, get rid of the instant overview of sigs and make people have a probe out to actively scan the system while they run sites. Make those ore sites have to be scanned down. GIve good scanning skills and scouting a reward. If we have to spam the probes so be it. that is being proative and trying to mitagate the risk. Mitagating risk should be allowed.
This proposal seems to be too far the other direction. It makes it so large WH entities are the only way to go so you can simply outblob others. As for no risk... tell that to the moros driver that gave us a moros this week. It was really kind of him, it would seem that they were not being proactive at all.
|
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
81
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:38:00 -
[57] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.
If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:41:00 -
[58] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey. live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol |
Admiral Douros
Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.
This is a great compromise and removes a very annoying mechanic. |
Seelen Jager
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:44:00 -
[60] - Quote
Deeone wrote:AutumnWind1983 wrote:mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey. live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol
If you want to tackle my farming fleet in a cloaky t3 go ahead, I'd love to watch it melt under 90% webs and dread guns.
|
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3156
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:46:00 -
[61] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey.
Am I mistaken in my belief that by spamming scan on your probes you could see when new signatures appeared which in turn served as extra warning?
Regardless of whether I am or not, let's not forget that neither "spamming dscan" nor "spamming probe scan" are exactly what you'd call "fun and engaging" gameplay and having some other more interesting means of remaining vigilant would be fantastic. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Klarion Sythis
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
243
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:46:00 -
[62] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears. This seems like a better idea. |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
82
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
Deeone wrote:AutumnWind1983 wrote:mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey. live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol
Yes, I've lived in one for a while. If the attacking fleet is all cloakies, they're gimping their fits and you should have a good chance in a fight. If you're mining in a wh you're doing it wrong. Get a venture, suck gas, and accept you'll die some times. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
423
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:47:00 -
[64] - Quote
Seelen Jager wrote: If you want to tackle my farming fleet in a cloaky t3 go ahead, I'd love to watch it melt under 90% webs and dread guns.
Do remember that the people farming escalations with dreads/carriers/loki are only a relatively small portion of the time spent PVEing in WH's.
The proposed changes would have a far far greater effect on the C1-4 crowd than the 5/6 crowd, simply because of the size of fleet needed to attack a escalation fleet with good results.
But a few t3's can nuke the smaller crowd PvE ships no problem. |
Seelen Jager
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:54:00 -
[65] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Seelen Jager wrote: If you want to tackle my farming fleet in a cloaky t3 go ahead, I'd love to watch it melt under 90% webs and dread guns.
Do remember that the people farming escalations with dreads/carriers/loki are only a relatively small portion of the time spent PVEing in WH's. The proposed changes would have a far far greater effect on the C1-4 crowd than the 5/6 crowd, simply because of the size of fleet needed to attack a escalation fleet with good results. But a few t3's can nuke the smaller crowd PvE ships no problem.
Sorry, no intent to snub the c1-4 crowd. Just dont regularly see cloaky t3's used as initial tackle on anything larger than a group of 2-3. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
151
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:55:00 -
[66] - Quote
So far it's roughly falling out as follows:
If you normally roam / roll holes in a 20+ t3 fleet then you are for it. If you don't normally roam / roll holes in a 20+ t3 fleet then you are against it.
If you have a 20 man plexing fleet you are for it. If you don't have a 20 man plexing fleet you are against it.
So Fozzie, I guess it's about wether you are pro big corp/alliance or pro small guys eeking out a living in wh space.
Feel free to let us know where you stand.
|
Sylvanium Orlenard
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
39
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:56:00 -
[67] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Seelen Jager wrote: If you want to tackle my farming fleet in a cloaky t3 go ahead, I'd love to watch it melt under 90% webs and dread guns.
Do remember that the people farming escalations with dreads/carriers/loki are only a relatively small portion of the time spent PVEing in WH's. The proposed changes would have a far far greater effect on the C1-4 crowd than the 5/6 crowd, simply because of the size of fleet needed to attack a escalation fleet with good results. But a few t3's can nuke the smaller crowd PvE ships no problem.
Risk vs. Reward. the bigger the farming fleet the less risk you are taking. But if you are farming that C3 with a self rep T3 that is all blinged out you are taking a significant risk. I know I lived in a C2 with a C3 static for almost a year and a half while I was running the E-UNI Wormhole Campus. A 6 or 8 man C3 site running fleet can handle cloacky T3s and run away with few scratches, assuming they are on the ball. On the other hand an all blinged out self rep T3 has little to no chance of surviving a gank. This is true of any area of the game, (you can run c5 sites in a single maurauder and the same thing is true) As long as you are combat probing for new ships, even after this change goes through a decent sized C3 fleet still stands a good chance of survival. |
Exo Skel
EyEs.FR Dominatus Atrum Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:57:00 -
[68] - Quote
While I agree the new Sensor Overlay made the wh life more accessible (understand 'easier') and should be rolled back, the change proposed here is not a good idea at all. Make it back as it was, ie someone is needed to actively check for new sigs instead of just looking the scanner window...
I doubt this kind of game mechanic adjustment will help repopulate wormholes :x
|
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1317
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:So far it's roughly falling out as follows:
If you normally roam / roll holes in a 20+ t3 fleet then you are for it. If you don't normally roam / roll holes in a 20+ t3 fleet then you are against it.
If you have a 20 man plexing fleet you are for it. If you don't have a 20 man plexing fleet you are against it.
So Fozzie, I guess it's about wether you are pro big corp/alliance or pro small guys eeking out a living in wh space.
Feel free to let us know where you stand.
There are quite a few who gank, are from large alliances, and/or have large "plexing" fleets that are not for this proposal in it's current form. Let's not turn this into a small v. large or high class v. low class, because I'm a C6 resident, as well as others here, and we aren't advocating for this idea. CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
StarConquer212
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
196
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:02:00 -
[70] - Quote
Darren Fox wrote:Thank you for considering this. Today it is too easy to passively catch K162s. I am not sure I'd like the K162 being too delayed from probes though. How about 2 minute delay before it can be scanned down and 4 minutes before overlay shows it?
Spot on Darren, i approve.
In practice its far too safe to bear in wormholes for the amount of isk you get. And the chances of rolling into some one bearing is very very low. this would only give you a slight edge to catch there fleet. As getting organized on the fly is time consuming.
-Star |
|
MrBrookes
Umbrella C0rp Dominatus Atrum Mortis
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:08:00 -
[71] - Quote
theres veteran players then theres new players and a balance to satisfy both is a hard but complicated one.
I say keep the balance we currently have. We want new players to come to wh space and if your going to put time into anything its to bring in more not scare off. I say more people in wh space means more things to shoot at. GET THA THING!!!
Yes u did away with us having to probe all the time to catch new sigs but we still have to probe them IF we catch them. It would appear you want to give the aggressors the advantage ie the ones probing creating the k162 and leaving the ones on the other end with no clue a new sig is in system for a short time. I say leave the current balances the way they are because you wanna keep what you have so take what you have then build on it. I wanna pull up next to the miner thats mining and not paying any attention and remind him theres a new overlay he should have been paying attention too.
Lets do the things that brings more people to wh space....like more dynamic spawning into wh space.
I have lived in wh space now for 3 years and i love the changes and ive ganked my fair share as i have lost. You just gotta be in the right place at the right time. No matter how you change wh space i know that we as wh dwellers will adapt and evolve. My only concerns are keeping the new comers coming and not scaring them off. I wanna shoot something at the end of a hard days work.
GOONS IN WH SPACE??? who's fleet am i joining to kill these guys.
|
DoToo Foo
Weaponised FuGu
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:12:00 -
[72] - Quote
I am the hunted.
Passive information on the discovery scanner is bad, for any space.
I am in favour of a design that gives those actively paying attention an advantage, regardless of whether they hunt or are hunted.
Do not spawn k162's untill the the souce wh is used would give hunters an extra 10 seconds or so, bur would also give c2 dwellers the option of finding but rejecting one of their statics. It would also give those locking down wormholes an advantage. I am comfortable with this option and side effects,but others may not be.
Removing all sigs from the discovery scanner, or at least make it require manual spamming is also acceptable.
Allowing a mobile scan inhibitor to hide a sig would even be acceptable. We would still have something to find.
Actively preventing the at keyboard and aware pliot from being aware will prevent the risk averse from even being in wormhole space.
I will remain in wormhole space regardless. Requiring active participation to see signatures makes sence. Stacking the deck so far on either side does not.
|
Hiljah
Complex Systems
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
TLDR: dislike
It goes too far. If you wanted to go this far, you would need to switch all anoms to sigs, so the attacker would need to be a good prober, and might not have time to adjust their fleet comp to exactly counter you.
To me, what you are suggesting would be similar to waiting 20 minutes in a FW complex but not being able to d-scan out, even though the attacker can d-scan in.
In this case the attack will not only be able to see what ships you are flying, but also have a very good idea of fits. They will reship to as hard of a counter as they can field.
Currently, this is already what happens if you do not watch open holes or check new sigs.
I would ask that you either allow defenders to protect themselves with probes, or require a fast unprepared attacker ( a fast probing hunter, fast warping tackle, and combat ships that aren't fit to exactly counter the defender).
|
Ziirn
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:21:00 -
[74] - Quote
Listed items below should be applied with the current state wormholes function.
1. Remove Sensor Overlay system in WH space (The WH system effect causes disturbance that makes the overlay not work. or whatever reason you can think of)
2. Only update Cosmic Anomalies in the scanner window automatic (or use the old system where you could see them if you pressed scan without launching probes.)
3. Make ore mining sites (Gravimetric) Cosmic Anomalies again (Right now no one mines since the risk are stupid for the reward. Changing this will results in more ships to kill, bringing more action.)
I have been in hole rolling fleets on several occations and the most common result is that we find no one bearing or everyone is either POSed up or cloaked (spending hours on rolling holes). Changing the time of wich a K side can be seen or scanned wont increase wormhole pvp. If you are bearing in a dread you are most likely sieged and can't warp out anyway before a competent scout can find you.
The solution is to decrease time spent in POS or cloaked. By providing more content that will attract both residents, other wh people and k-space people. Theres so many null exits in high class wh's but do they go in solo/small gang to do PVE? No because they can't handle sites / to large risk. So we miss out on PvP there aswell since they wont do it. What kind of content? That would be an entire new topic that could be discussed.
Hugs and kisses XOXOXO and all that stuff //Ziirn |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
46
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:24:00 -
[75] - Quote
I am very much not in favour of this idea as currently proposed - this coming from someone who both tries to kill site running groups and runs sites. I don't think that the discovery scanner has had a positive effect on wormholes in general, for various reasons I'm not going to go into, but partly because it does make it too easy to passively spot new connections.
I agree with the suggestion that K162 sigs should be scannable but not added to the passive scanner for a few minutes - in fact, I'd go so far as to say that this should be applied to every signature, since it rewards someone who is actively using a module on their ship and scan probes.
I also kind of like the suggestion of having a new connection not spawn its K162 until it was jumped, rather than when warp was initiated, as it would allow a fleet to be poised before a scout jumped through without having a period of time when a cloaked scout could be getting warpins without the 'defending' side having the slightest clue.
Realistically, even if you're watching d-scan like a hawk, it is entirely possible to cloak a scout entering a wormhole during the time between the game allowing you to scan, depending on the position you arrive at relative to the hole.
I also think it would be entirely unfair to have a situation where a combat fleet had entered a wormhole and left the locals physically no way of locating the wormhole which they came through and getting their own eyes on it for a given amount of time, though you do address that with the idea of giving it a mass or jump number limit before it spawns in the sig.
While I'm not a big fan of the idea of having both wormholes spawn simultaneously, due to the huge implications on hole control this would have, it is better than having a signature that you can't see at all. However, this would heavily punish small groups operating in wormholes with multiple statics, as they'd have to put eyes on every one.
TL:DR; Disagree with this suggestion, however would not be opposed to a return to a system that required the active use of probes to spot signatures immediately. |
Kivena
EVE University Ivy League
37
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:25:00 -
[76] - Quote
Meytal wrote:- Sigs should be delayed by 5 minutes from appearing in the scanner window, but visible immediately via probes - Ore sites in W-space should be returned to signatures instead of anomalies I agree with this. I do not like the proposed timer, it swings too far in favour of the gankers.
Teaching Manager EVE University |
Hanna White
Budget Burials Inc
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:27:00 -
[77] - Quote
Not a good idea, what we need is more people in WH space, not less.
Also, this whole ting makes no sense. Let's see s.o. jumps in through that new K162, gets combat probed, people warp to it. Now, they are on a WH which has no signature yet? Or does the signature spawn, now that they are on grid? No, that whole thing is half-baked at most.
Anyway, if you are doing sites and 30 T3 roll into your WH, the sig popping up instantly doesnt really help you anyway. You are tackled by sleepers in the site, you either got the people online to defend or you dont. Giving attackers 2-3 mins more, is just helping unskilled people.
Thanks to site escalation mechanics, if you want to kill people doing sites, just seed in carrier+dread+cloaked ship into their WH. Wait until they warp their carrier/dread/lokis into a site, warp your 2 caps to 300km of that site -> Watch them die to like 50 sleeper BS.
If you want to change s.th. useful in WH space (or in space in general) make your ship stay in space when you log-off. Ships disappearing out of/into nothing is just crap.
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
I don't really think that one-sided ganks are the best parts of wormhole life. High-tension fights where both sides have a chance are best, though there is of course the saying "If you find yourself in an even fight, you both made a mistake". Clever positioning and use of holes create good fights, not situations where one side can repeatedly bring in reinforcements without the other side being able to see where they're coming from.
I should also probably point out that this will make it far, far harder to catch or prevent people from rolling wormholes, and that personally has generated a lot of interesting fights for me, from both sides of that particular type of engagement. |
Chitsa Jason
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
1229
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:31:00 -
[79] - Quote
I do agree with the idea as it would mean more htfu in wspace. Wspace people can make a lot of isk and the space does not have local. It should be mysterious and unknown. I do understand peoples position to farm in peace but i do not understand your spirit of wspace. CSM8 Member Twitter:-á@ChitsaJason Skype: Casparas
|
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
301
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:36:00 -
[80] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I do agree with the idea as it would mean more htfu in wspace. Wspace people can make a lot of isk and the space does not have local. It should be mysterious and unknown. I do understand peoples position to farm in peace but i do not understand your spirit of wspace. It's not about wanting to farm in peace - the K162 appears either way. I want to be able to reship into a combat or bait ship when a K162 pops up, instead of beeing plain ganked which is less fun for either side. |
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:36:00 -
[81] - Quote
Generally, I don't see this change promoting good fights, I see it focusing attention on ganks, which we already have plenty of in highsec, rather than promoting other, more enjoyable kinds of combat.
I'd rather kill a site running fleet thanks to their own stupidity and my skill and speed rather than the game not allowing them a way of getting any kind of warning until my dread and neut ships were already in warp. |
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
118
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:36:00 -
[82] - Quote
This is absolutely the right direction for a change.
I'll leave the details up to others vis a vis minutes/overlay/scanners, but wanted to voice my support. Glad to see something came of that townhall. |
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:38:00 -
[83] - Quote
I understand whats being proposed here... Opening up opportunity for pvp...
I think this change isnt in the historical spirit of the game as I see it... Traditionally eve has many dynamics which have the earmarks of rewarding diligence and penalizing lazyness. In that regard, if you're diligent about watching probes or dscan or the sensor overlay for new sigs then you get the security that the vigilance affords you.
This proposed change seems to work against that. Now there's nothing I can do to know I'm about to get jumped if i conduct some activity in my wh that could put me at risk.
This in conjunction with the reality that many wormhole corps are small means the large preying on the small will be more effective at delivering a negative game-play experience for those folks just scraping by
I feel like whats trying to be done here is to make rolling for pvp more enjoyable by improving the odds at rewards... Because this activity is notorious for being boring. Could we consider that this activity isnt as ideal for enjoyment as some other techniques to provoke pvp?
You know... like invading to provoke a fight
I think really what this is, is opening up more opportunities for ganks, when what should be being considered is how to bring more balanced long-lasting good fights that I think most people would agree are more exciting and rewarding than catching some small group of scrubs with their pants down
|
Intana Kreis
The Red Circle Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:39:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community.
How many of Team Five O have lived in w-space? Just asking. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
428
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:40:00 -
[85] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I do agree with the idea as it would mean more htfu in wspace. Wspace people can make a lot of isk and the space does not have local. It should be mysterious and unknown. I do understand peoples position to farm in peace but i do not understand your spirit of wspace.
Oh wouldn't it be grand if everyone in W-space could drop a 30 man t3 fleet on a target? Everyone would roll around making mad dosh, flying superexpensive ships and not caring if they lose them. From the newest player in a WH to the oldest, easy isk, ships come easy and go easy, and nothing ever matters.
Well you can. And I can. And a lot of the largest c5 and c6 corps can.
But to blanket tell everyone that disagrees with the idea that they need to HTFU and accept their unforeseeable, uncounterable ganking as a product of what you believe is the "spirit of Wspace" is just silly.
People in lower level WH's that get repeatedly ganked without counterplay don't HTFU and magically become competent c5/c6 corps. They either quit, or they leave WH space, or they leave their corp to join one of said c5/c6 corp with enough firepower and a scary enough name to deter gankers with fewer numbers than their own blob group. Then their old corp withers because of a lack of competent players.
I'm really not seeing you as a great representative of the WH community if your only response to peoples concerns outside of c5/6 blobs is "HTFU noob, my playstyle, my way, only way" |
Arkon Olacar
Blue-Fire
323
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:40:00 -
[86] - Quote
Also; shoutout to CCP for coming to us with a proposition and allowing us to discuss it first, rather than announcing it as an addition and wait for us all to cry with one voice "I want some of whatever you've been smoking". It is appreciated. Warping to zero |
Skyleth Bergen
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:41:00 -
[87] - Quote
This change doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I could see taking away sensor overlay in general, but there's no plausible explanation as to why your active probing wouldn't be able to detect a signature that's in active use. We are flying spaceships here, but I like to see a certain degree of realism maintained in my fantasy.
This change seems like it would only benefit aggressors who already have the advantage of piling into a new system on short notice. It simply stacks the odds increasingly in their favor by circumventing the active vigilance of people seeking to avoid a fight; something they are doing quite legitimately.
People pressing for this change are basically asking for handicap so they can gank. Want to drop on someone faster? Accept the risk of having less time to scout and weigh the odds of your success. I think that's really the balance answer here: a change in play style of the aggressive party. But nobody is doing it because they fear losing ships! |
Chitsa Jason
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
1229
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:42:00 -
[88] - Quote
I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs. CSM8 Member Twitter:-á@ChitsaJason Skype: Casparas
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:45:00 -
[89] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs.
I don't really see that happening. Log off gangs are just better when you have a given target you have intel on and want to hit, particularly in C6 space due to the relative ease of finding a particular hole. Rolling gangs can still be very effective currently, and will be successful against people who aren't paying attention or are doing something wrong, which is exactly the kind of people who SHOULD be dying. |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1320
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:46:00 -
[90] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs.
I think that this change would favor rolling gangs, so I can agree with your stance in that regard, Chitsa.
However, the bigger picture is that this will also impact the lower class residents. This will harm their gameplay as it is proposed. CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
|
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
119
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:47:00 -
[91] - Quote
I want to make a longer post.
Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.
I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.
The status quo isn't good for wormholes. |
Valeska Vasile
Pinard Industries FEDERATION SOLARIS
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:47:00 -
[92] - Quote
i like the idea to make wormholes a bit less predictable. But, wouldn't it be too good for wormholes folks that can chain-collapse their static? Should statics be bound too to this new rule?
|
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:48:00 -
[93] - Quote
Axloth Okiah wrote:This change would also allow safely rolling new statics you dont like. Imagine some "farmers" roll into some "pvpers". Currently, the "pvpers" have chance to scan the hole and ambush those "farmers" when they try to roll this unwanted static. Proposed change would give them perfectly safe window to crash without any possible interference. So this cuts both ways and one of them is making certain things safer, not riskier.
Still reading the thread, but this resonates with me pretty strongly. |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:50:00 -
[94] - Quote
I like the notion to delay signals of K162 on the overlay and passive ship scanner
But i dont like the idea of delaying it on probes. if a farming fleet commits one or more people to scanning duty they should be able to get information faster that just by staring ot the passive scan results.
Right now you get the info for free, with new system you will have to do some work to get it in time to safe your fleet / call in reinforcments.
The end goal for the change is to get more fights, but is it more fights that will be given or just more ganks? If somoene will not place probers on watch they are stupid but if they doo, they should have an edge. even if slight. compared to the overlay. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:51:00 -
[95] - Quote
Joran Jackson wrote:I want to make a longer post.
Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.
I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.
The status quo isn't good for wormholes.
If somebody is lazy, or unskilled, or messes up, then that's the time when they should be ganked. If somebody is paying attention then there's an opportunity for both sides to have a fight they will enjoy, rather than stacking the cards to one side in order to allow large groups to gank smaller ones. |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
303
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:59:00 -
[96] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs. As someone living in <=C4, I have never encountered log off gangs (outside POS assaults/defenses). Rolling gangs are the norm, however there might have been a decrease since Odyssey. |
Alisyana
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
113
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:02:00 -
[97] - Quote
Disable sig overlay and D-Scan. Problem solved. Definition of "SD" (Self Destruct) = "It's like running up to someone to kick them in the balls, they see you and proceed to kick themselves in the balls, and then laugh at you for denying someone a chance to kick them in the balls." -á- Celery Man |
Dreekus
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:02:00 -
[98] - Quote
Delaying overlay - sure. Most of us were against it in WH in the first place.
Delay on probs is big no. Attackers already have advantage in surpise and being formed up, adding to that more time is just making ganks easier without providing good counter and without rewarding active gameplay. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:04:00 -
[99] - Quote
Alisyana wrote:Disable sig overlay and D-Scan. Problem solved.
Are you suggesting disabling D-Scan in wormholes? |
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
119
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:04:00 -
[100] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Joran Jackson wrote:I want to make a longer post.
Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.
I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.
The status quo isn't good for wormholes. If somebody is lazy, or unskilled, or messes up, then that's the time when they should be ganked. If somebody is paying attention then there's an opportunity for both sides to have a fight they will enjoy, rather than stacking the cards to one side in order to allow large groups to gank smaller ones.
If you're entire point is to have the permanent probe delay removed? Fine, I agree with you. Only if you agree to have the sensor overlay delayed until you get a probe hit. I'd be perfectly happy with a change that takes us back to pre-Odyssey. |
|
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
431
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:04:00 -
[101] - Quote
Alisyana wrote:Disable sig overlay and D-Scan. Problem solved.
Not sure if trolling about removing D-scan in a place with no local or just really really batty. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:06:00 -
[102] - Quote
Joran Jackson wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Joran Jackson wrote:I want to make a longer post.
Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.
I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.
The status quo isn't good for wormholes. If somebody is lazy, or unskilled, or messes up, then that's the time when they should be ganked. If somebody is paying attention then there's an opportunity for both sides to have a fight they will enjoy, rather than stacking the cards to one side in order to allow large groups to gank smaller ones. If you're entire point is to have the permanent probe delay removed? Fine, I agree with you. Only if you agree to have the sensor overlay delayed until you get a probe hit. I'd be perfectly happy with a change that takes us back to pre-Odyssey.
Yeah, that sounds good to me. Require you to at least scan the system to know a sig is there, I'd be fine with going back to that. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
640
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:06:00 -
[103] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.
We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent). We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.
Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely. Thanks! -Fozzie
This is a great proposal, its fair and does bring the required level of danger into w-space. Doooooooo it. |
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
120
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:07:00 -
[104] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Joran Jackson wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Joran Jackson wrote:I want to make a longer post.
Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.
I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.
The status quo isn't good for wormholes. If somebody is lazy, or unskilled, or messes up, then that's the time when they should be ganked. If somebody is paying attention then there's an opportunity for both sides to have a fight they will enjoy, rather than stacking the cards to one side in order to allow large groups to gank smaller ones. If you're entire point is to have the permanent probe delay removed? Fine, I agree with you. Only if you agree to have the sensor overlay delayed until you get a probe hit. I'd be perfectly happy with a change that takes us back to pre-Odyssey. Yeah, that sounds good to me. Require you to at least scan the system to know a sig is there, I'd be fine with going back to that.
Joran Jackson, Uniter. |
Alisyana
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
113
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Alisyana wrote:Disable sig overlay and D-Scan. Problem solved. Are you suggesting disabling D-Scan in wormholes?
Yes.
Remove the d-scan and the sig overlay and you go back to the mechanic that existed before, where you had to do something (scan with probes) to find a signature, and by removing the d-scan you make it more uncertain for both sides when they meet.
Just fight it out and see who wins. Definition of "SD" (Self Destruct) = "It's like running up to someone to kick them in the balls, they see you and proceed to kick themselves in the balls, and then laugh at you for denying someone a chance to kick them in the balls." -á- Celery Man |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
607
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:08:00 -
[106] - Quote
Joran Jackson wrote:I want to make a longer post.
Laziness is a huge factor. Spamming probes is not all it is cracked up to be and there are plenty of times where someone doesn't do it as often as they should, or goes AFK, or is dumb and decides to run shorthanded and second clients the scout.
I think even going back to the spamming probes method is a huge improvement because it forces activity out of the farming fleet. And as everyone in this thread knows there's plenty of opportunities that happen in those seconds before a button push. I think there's pros and cons to going further than that, but at a minimum that is where the conversation should start.
The status quo isn't good for wormholes. How about make it so you need to press the scan button in order to get the refreshed list of signatures? No probes needed (just like now), but being active and pressing that button is (just like pre-odyssey). CSM9 Candidate: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326853 Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/asayanami Twitter: https://twitter.com/Asayanami
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:09:00 -
[107] - Quote
Alisyana wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Alisyana wrote:Disable sig overlay and D-Scan. Problem solved. Are you suggesting disabling D-Scan in wormholes? Yes. Remove the d-scan and the sig overlay and you go back to the mechanic that existed before, where you had to do something (scan with probes) to find a signature, and by removing the d-scan you make it more uncertain for both sides when they meet. Just fight it out and see who wins.
I'm not even sure if I should dignify that idea with a response. |
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:09:00 -
[108] - Quote
James Arget wrote:
This change would be very very powerful for the spawning party
Yep
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
As long as there's something we can do to continue to operate under these proposed changes, then its fine
but if you just expect us to have more 'operational costs' i think this idea isnt very well thought out. This change will need to be offered along with something to balance it
A change like this without any counterbalancing will have an impact on smaller groups like ours |
Moe Lesture
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:12:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
Number of jumps / amount of mass passing through it affecting appearance time sounds good.
Also, The amount of mass being WARPED to the wormhole could affect it. This way, if a capital is warping to the wormhole, it will immediately register on your scanners v0v but a frigate class wouldn't even phase it. HICS may use their mass reduction to exploit this but a HIC cant solo tank sleepers forever...
A balance between scouts having time to look around vs gank fleet passing through may be a good compromise.
sig here |
Bum Shadow
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
87
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:13:00 -
[110] - Quote
I'd say, hidden from sensor/probes for 2-4 minutes. UNLESS, someone warps OFF the grid (IE came through hole, is now warping off the grid of the K162 side towards his target. OR the hole has gone through a stage change within the initial 2-4 minute "hidden" period.
So, this allows a scout to jump into the hole within the 2-4 minute hidden period, Do a bit of D-scanning without warping, maybe get a quick and simple initial "feel" for the system.
Once that scouts warps away from the WH, the site becomes "Active" regardless of the current timer status.
If nobody warps off the WH, BUT enough ships enter through to cause a stage change, I'd also make this trigger the signature/overlay as active.
I'd say this gives some room for manoeuvre without making it unreasonable on the prey.
2-4 minute timer forces the aggressors group to be quick and proficient to secure a successful ambush, any **** ups on their part and the signature becomes active for the prey to discover, either by a hasty scout, too large of an initial ambush team, or delayed reactions on the aggressors side. |
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:14:00 -
[111] - Quote
Moe Lesture wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
Number of jumps / amount of mass passing through it affecting appearance time sounds good. Also, The amount of mass being WARPED to the wormhole could affect it. This way, if a capital is warping to the wormhole, it will immediately register on your scanners v0v but a frigate class wouldn't even phase it. HICS may use their mass reduction to exploit this but a HIC cant solo tank sleepers forever... A balance between scouts having time to look around vs gank fleet passing through may be a good compromise.
Hics can't warp while under the effect of their bubbles, so the amount of mass being warped to it couldn't be changed. If it was jump related then it could be done in the same way as closing a crit hole.
Not that I agree with the idea in general. |
ROSSLINDEN0
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
223
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:17:00 -
[112] - Quote
******** idea imo, it not showing on overlay is good but not being able to probe it is way too powerful to the person who opened it, i could scout the full system and see how many and what ships they have online and form a gank fleet in the time it takes for the sig to show.... |
devian chase
The Red Circle Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:19:00 -
[113] - Quote
You guys all want easier ganks . But if you cant get a fleet going in the 2-3 minutes it takes for a pve fleet to clear a site of pointing sleepers you dont deserve the kill :) Ganking shouldnt be made easier ... We just need more ppl in wh space , since incursions you can get the same isk/h and group pve totaly safe in high sec or get more doing the FW thing K-space ppl dont go up for day trips to wh space at all anymore there just isnt a reason for ppl to come up to wh space , everything up here takes way more effort and coordination
if you want to improve wh space : 1 remove escalation waves ,will force ppl to do sites in small pve fleets again outside of their capital infested home 2 add c1-3 site spawns to c5 classes as well , so ppl dont need the 6+ gang to do stuff 3 add pointy sleepers to all c1-3 sites 4 small buff to the loot of all sleeper sites 5 add more content like ded plexes / sansha stuff to wh space
|
Intana Kreis
The Red Circle Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:21:00 -
[114] - Quote
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:******** idea imo, it not showing on overlay is good but not being able to probe it is way too powerful to the person who opened it, i could scout the full system and see how many and what ships they have online and form a gank fleet in the time it takes for the sig to show....
and if they have too much, roll in the time it takes for the sig to show. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
640
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:21:00 -
[115] - Quote
Schwa Nuts wrote: I completely disagree with the notion that you can farm wormholes nearly risk free. Twice in two months I've lost my C5 capital fleet to logoff traps, and I had friends evicted from theirs just a few weeks ago. The merits of the change I'm still vascillating on, but the statement that it's nearly risk free to farm wormholes is, in my opinion, just not true.
There seems to be a lot of angry ranting from gankers who feel like they should be given as many advantages as possible in order to win a fight. If there is enough preparation on the side of those looking for the fight, they have, as it stands, a pretty clear advantage already.
And I will give you reasons for why you have lost your fleet:
-Log off trap is currently the only way you can catch someone running their sites as ANY other method lights up a big sig on everyone's overlay (at least people had to fit scanner probes on their lokis before)
-You are not a w-space group, you are a bunch of null dwellers who grabbed a w-space system in order to make some ISK. That does NOT make your opinion invalid, what it does is make you an easy target. People who perform logoff traps on you know that there is little to no retaliation coming, they know its just a couple of guys with a few alts.
In a realistic scenario, this change is aimed towards actual w-space dwellers, people who spend tons of time in w-space, in those cases you can't even do a logoff trap because you know that they will have a massive capital superiority just a ping away. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:22:00 -
[116] - Quote
Intana Kreis wrote:ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:******** idea imo, it not showing on overlay is good but not being able to probe it is way too powerful to the person who opened it, i could scout the full system and see how many and what ships they have online and form a gank fleet in the time it takes for the sig to show.... and if they have too much, roll in the time it takes for the sig to show.
Yeap. As I was saying earlier, it removes almost all the risk from rolling out a hole you don't want, as the people on the other side can't scan it down and get stuff there to crossjump or catch you. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13086
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:29:00 -
[117] - Quote
Nyx STeeLGamers wrote:I don't know how this change in k162 appearance delay will affect the quality of pvp for entities already willing to fight. I do know that this will lead to a decrease in Wh population for people living just for pve. The same sort of thing happened to c6 space where big groups purged pve entities in c6's. Don't think c6 is better off as a result. From what you are proposinf ccp fozzie, the quality of consensual pvp will remain unchanged but Wh ganking will increase. I'm not sure that's best for W-space. But hey, if you go through with this, we'll adapt. confirming we'll make necessary adjustments here.
rolling with the punches.
o7 President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Castor Troyy
You Can't Fool Owls Let It Bleed
81
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:30:00 -
[118] - Quote
TLDR: Sensor Overlay delay---who cares (I don't think anyone does) Probe Delay..no way...if the offenders open the door, the defenders need to see it too without any delay
This change is good if you are one of the few wormhole juggernaut corps/alliance that actively role their statics to gank pve farmers.
There are however far more smaller corps/alliances that simply just don't have the numbers to counter anything that this delay would cause.
I'm speaking typical of c5/c6 space now:
Overlay Delay / Probe Delay... What is the difference? If you roll into a system where pve is taking place. PVPers should be ready to go anyway. Maybe a minor fleet comp change b/c of wh system effects [probably not b/c we have taken armor fleets into pulsars several times with success.]. But what is the point to leave the "soon-to-be-victims" in the dark further?
The only folks in favor of this change are members of the above mentioned large corps/alliances. All this change would help is more successful ganks in lower space whs...because the success of capital escalations ganks are pretty high already. Mabye the gankers don't get the whole fleet....but it is likely they will get a few capitals.
What will happen way down the line is all this isk that these farmers earn will be put back into buying new farming fleets. Then..when their isk runs out [because they get ganked more often]....they will just abandon the notion that wh space is a good source of income and leave. Cause and Effect..keep it in mind
Think of everyone when making this change...not only the folks that primarily enjoy wh space for pvp, but also the ones who enjoy the pve aspect of it too. |
Laryk
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:31:00 -
[119] - Quote
For the most part, I really like this change. Any change to WH space that increases the chance for PVP, and makes PVE harder is in my opinion a good thing for WH space.
Definitely removing the K162s from the overlay is a plus. I never liked the idea of ships being able to see any of the sigs in system without actually have probes out. This feature is broken IMO.
From the aggressors standpoint, having a delay on the sig appearing is a neat idea. I almost feel that it needs to have some limitations. Someone suggested being unable to warp off hole until it appears. Something along those lines is reasonable.
Another idea would be to allow the sig to be hidden for a period of time, unless a substantial amount of mass comes through the hole. My concern is that, even the most diligent of corps could potentially have a cap wave seeded in their system without them even noticing. If you have a group that actually pays attention to the sigs in their system, an opposing foe should be unable to drop a cap fleet into their system without any possibility of finding out. Sub-caps however, would be less of a concern.
This of course is my opinion and how it pertains to my play style and what I enjoy in game. |
Shyzandra
EyEs.FR Dominatus Atrum Mortis
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:31:00 -
[120] - Quote
I think that would be a very bad way to give to wh pvp'ers like me "something to eat". We rarely found active people in W-Space and when we do they're farmers doing some site. The mechanics changes you're proposing will be short term solutions as it will only lead to W-Space depopulation... In other words a small increase of pvp (mostly farmer ganking) followed by a greater decrease... What you want to do is increase wh population by offering something interesting (nothing in mind beside isk) but some capsulers explained it way better than me. More capsulers in WH mean more collapsing, more ship traveling and thus more potential danger.
Now about the mechanic itself, how would it work with a wh leading to a null sec? The pilots would see us in D-scan, in local, but not see the signature? That would be odd. What if a X702 open in your home? The null sec residents would actually have an advantage on the W-Space residents? That would be wrong...
When you think about it on a bigger scale, it would give big advantages to K-space capsulers against W-Space, and none to W-space against K-space... And in my opinion, W-Space should be in comparison to K-Space "where unknown death come from" and not a " Easy kill area" for the HS/LS/00 ppl... |
|
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:32:00 -
[121] - Quote
The big problem I have is that many WH sites are anoms. This basically gives the invader complete surprise so long as they act quickly. Even with a mass restriction they could just pop in with bombers for a quick kill.
Perhaps another approach, what if random signals popped up in WH space from time to time? When scanned down they would just be random materials that somehow emitted a signal. It is unknown WH space after all. These random signals would have similar difficulty and the same unknown status as WH's to scan down.
This would mean that each new signal might prompt the players to scan, but they wouldn't be sure if it was a K162 or a random anom.
|
Laryk
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:34:00 -
[122] - Quote
Forgot to mention. Like the idea of PVEing in PVP ships. Maybe this will bring that trend back. |
ROSSLINDEN0
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
225
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:36:00 -
[123] - Quote
Intana Kreis wrote:ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:******** idea imo, it not showing on overlay is good but not being able to probe it is way too powerful to the person who opened it, i could scout the full system and see how many and what ships they have online and form a gank fleet in the time it takes for the sig to show.... and if they have too much, roll in the time it takes for the sig to show.
Yes, can we get people to these townhall meets who are willing to disagree with the crowd and not just agree to every **** idea shat out on the table |
Kristalll
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:37:00 -
[124] - Quote
Hmm, this seems to start fixing many problems CCP has been looking at and would greatly favor real w-space corps and live and die in W-space.
Specifically as a result of making the carebear types less safe, you'll end up with less farmers. This will translate into more valuable salvage and hacking loot for the combat w-space corps, as well as increase the cost of T3s, which is nearly a must with the current state of T3s being somewhat overpowered. If T3s started costing more again, then their rebalance won't be nearly as destructive. |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
244
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:37:00 -
[125] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I do agree with the idea as it would mean more htfu in wspace. Wspace people can make a lot of isk and the space does not have local. It should be mysterious and unknown. I do understand people position to farm in peace but i do not understand your spirit of wspace.
Please don't reduce this change to be something as simple as PvE vs PvP mindset,
There is no equality in this change, it allows a headstart for people who roll into others, they have a good X long headstart where (bar a lucky server tick where the scout is seen on dscan) there is no way to even proactively defend onself.
There is no fun in playing an unwinnable game, it is frustrating when you do something wrong yes, but you can take lessons away and learn from it.
Here we have a situation where by chance if RNGesus hates/loves you and you roll into or someone rolls into you, stuff will die.
Nothing to learn, nothing to improve,
Wheres the attraction in that? I enjoy the hunt, and agree currently things aren't in a perfect state but are we really going to go down the track where kills come from bad/good luck? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
|
Finarfin
Reconfiguration Nation
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:39:00 -
[126] - Quote
I am in favour in of this change as I personally find it way too easy to be almost completely secure in your own WH but I can understand the vehement critics of this proposed change.
I really liked the compromise posted earlier in this thread which would make K162 only appear once someone has jumped through or at least significantly shorten the delay (30secs max). |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2073
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:40:00 -
[127] - Quote
Overall I think the idea is also crap.
To recap as others have pointed out.
1. A PVP adverse group can easily roll their connection before you have a chance to scan them down. 2 You might as well remove grav sites as nobody in their right mind would ever mine again. Now I'm not a fan of Mining, but I respect those who do (and do enjoy occasionally running into them).
Now IMO a relatively easy comprimise is as follows. If I understand correctly the overlay scanner already only scans every 60 seconds? So at most there is a 1 minute delay. So just up the scanning interval. Say 15 minutes. You don't have to try and strip it out just for WH space, but it largely negates its use as a passive intel tool in all space.
And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with. |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
244
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:41:00 -
[128] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs.
Beacuase EvE players never take the easier option https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
|
Aurora Fatalis
Stillwater Corporation
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:42:00 -
[129] - Quote
Instead of instantly being revealed to the entire system at once, what if the data of a new K162 spawning propagated at some speed, say, 0.1 AU/s?
You could probe it down if your probe was lucky enough to be close to the spawn site, but one alt doing a system-encompassing scan would likely not. That leaves the counterplay of having scouts for advance warning, but doesn't make it ridiculously easy to pull off.
I know it's different from any other system in EVE, but now I kind of want Dscan to propagate at something like 1 AU as well... If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you? |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
244
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:43:00 -
[130] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Overall I think the idea is also crap.
To recap as others have pointed out.
1. A PVP adverse group can easily roll their connection before you have a chance to scan them down. 2 You might as well remove grav sites as nobody in their right mind would ever mine again. Now I'm not a fan of Mining, but I respect those who do (and do enjoy occasionally running into them).
Now IMO a relatively easy comprimise is as follows. If I understand correctly the overlay scanner already only scans every 60 seconds? So at most there is a 1 minute delay. So just up the scanning interval. Say 15 minutes. You don't have to try and strip it out just for WH space, but it largely negates its use as a passive intel tool in all space.
And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with.
I think hes trolling a bit, because to be fair when Null complained about the ESS and its badness, some chaps decided to... "creatively" use it in Wspace https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
|
|
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
303
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:45:00 -
[131] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with. The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh. You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something.. |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
244
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:49:00 -
[132] - Quote
Although, to be fair and not a moaning soul i will propose an idea that i think may help,
Scan probes currently have a fixed scanning time, if we were to alter this to have a probe that is scanning a 16 AU range take longer than a 0.5 AU range it would achieve a similar effect to what is happening here.
BUT it would leave the option for
- knowing signature mechanics and its effect on spawns, - having an option to find k162's if you are looking, - having a tradeoff between difficulty, effort and reward - still having a degree of stealth to attackers
edit- kill that stupid P.o.S discovery spinning crap https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2073
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:56:00 -
[133] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with. The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh. You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something..
No it is bad.
There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income.
If I get jumped in a Sanctum, I at least got bounties paid for all of my activity up until that point. (whatever the % is based on an ESS etc).
In WH space I make 0 isk running WH sites. (risk involved). In fact I make 0 isk collecting loot and salvaging (risk involved).
In fact in order to make ANY isk until I:
1. Run a site 2. Loot salvage a site 3. Safely store the loot (there is a risk however small of getting evicted) 4. Transport the loot through WH space 5. transport the loot thru k-space to a station for sale.
each step of the way has enough risk just to make the isk.
So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no. |
Kateryna I
Lords Of The Universe Exiled Ones
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 23:57:00 -
[134] - Quote
Quincy Thibaud wrote:This is good. I approve.
While you're at it, how about making ships that enter a null or low sec system from a WH in that system have a delayed appearance in local?
This, definitely would need to go in line with the fix. Also scaling the delay ie. C1 no delay, C6 big delay. Also mass dependant, ie one frig goes through and sig is still not visible for x time depending on WH class,three cruisers go through and it immediately shows up, again mass and time delay dependant on WH class.
There are some things this change can improve, but it will be all in the details as to not to spoil the fun for either groups of players. Polish PVP corp looking for members to have some fun together. Join me! Check our KB |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:02:00 -
[135] - Quote
First of i like the idea, i think it is a good one that is a realistic and achievable way of balancing the filed. PVE in WH's as it stands is practically risk free if you have any sense what so ever. What staggers me is the ignorance of the current occupants in WH space as to the basic mechanics of the space there living in.
I'm torn between pointing out the glaringly obvious to all of the care bares and my desire to keep you ignorant so i can kill you more easily.
The people on the K162 side already have the advantage when it comes to detecting new signatures being that it shows up for them the second warp is initiated to the hole on the other side. So you have the time it takes possible aggressors to warp to a WH then book mark it, boat the 10-5k you land from the hole jump then finish session change, d-scan to see any potential gank-e's, then further D-Scan them to a specific 100% site or drop probes and find you.
Even the most competent on PVP groups rolling with aggressive intent, this process takes 1 maybe 2 minutes. Not taking into account more PVP like to have eyes on the PVE's before dropping the fleet on them another minute and that's assuming your at the warping if not you have to BM a wreck and wait for it to show up in shared book marks something that in on itself can take an age.
So in order for me to catch a capital in a site it has to be a minimum of 1 minute into its siege/triage timer, and that's with me doing everything perfectly.
So if you still haven't spotted on your probes the new sigg in your system then to be totally honest with you, your incompetent and have no business living in Bob's space.
I have lived in WH space since its introduction, i have spent the last 2 years in Hard Knocks running capital escalations 3 or 4 times a week. And we have never lost a PVE fleet, in fact as it stands the only conceivable way i can imagine loosing one is to be Blood Union'ed.
So yes please, I personally fully endorse encourage this idea, even if it ends up being boiled down to K162's only showing once you have jumped. Because the current state of PVE affairs in WH space is untenable.
|
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
303
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:04:00 -
[136] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:In fact I make 0 isk collecting loot and salvaging (risk involved). Exactly because of that its not as much of an impact to WH than NS.. Instead of having the Noctis exposed you now have the "Salvage/Loot ESS". |
Intana Kreis
The Red Circle Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:05:00 -
[137] - Quote
I doubt if any of the complicated mechanisms a lot of players outlined above have a hope of ever being implemented. It'll turn out that a wormhole is actually a special case of some other object, doesn't have any of the properties needed to implement the necessary statistics, and adding in all the dependencies would be half a POS-rewrite worth of code. |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:06:00 -
[138] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Sephira Galamore wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with. The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh. You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something.. No it is bad. There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income. If I get jumped in a Sanctum, I at least got bounties paid for all of my activity up until that point. (whatever the % is based on an ESS etc). In WH space I make 0 isk running WH sites. (risk involved). In fact I make 0 isk collecting loot and salvaging (risk involved). In fact in order to make ANY isk I have to: 1. Run a site 2. Loot salvage a site 3. Safely store the loot (there is a risk however small of getting evicted) 4. Transport the loot through WH space 5. transport the loot thru k-space to a station for sale. each step of the way has enough risk just to make the isk. So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no.
and 3.5 - spy can steal it
besides, killing farming fleet on site is not about getting their isk, is about getting the kills themself, who cares if i grab their loot or not if i kill their triage and dreads in the process Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:07:00 -
[139] - Quote
Kateryna I wrote:Quincy Thibaud wrote:This is good. I approve.
While you're at it, how about making ships that enter a null or low sec system from a WH in that system have a delayed appearance in local?
This, definitely would need to go in line with the fix. Also scaling the delay ie. C1 no delay, C6 big delay. Also mass dependant, ie one frig goes through and sig is still not visible for x time depending on WH class,three cruisers go through and it immediately shows up, again mass and time delay dependant on WH class. There are some things this change can improve, but it will be all in the details as to not to spoil the fun for either groups of players.
the moment the fleet jumped trough wh its already too late for defender Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:07:00 -
[140] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:First of i like the idea, i think it is a good one that is a realistic and achievable way of balancing the filed. PVE in WH's as it stands is practically risk free if you have any sense what so ever. What staggers me is the ignorance of the current occupants in WH space as to the basic mechanics of the space there living in.
I'm torn between pointing out the glaringly obvious to all of the care bares and my desire to keep you ignorant so i can kill you more easily.
The people on the K162 side already have the advantage when it comes to detecting new signatures being that it shows up for them the second warp is initiated to the hole on the other side. So you have the time it takes possible aggressors to warp to a WH then book mark it, boat the 10-5k you land from the hole jump then finish session change, d-scan to see any potential gank-e's, then further D-Scan them to a specific 100% site or drop probes and find you.
Even the most competent on PVP groups rolling with aggressive intent, this process takes 1 maybe 2 minutes. Not taking into account more PVP like to have eyes on the PVE's before dropping the fleet on them another minute and that's assuming your at the warping if not you have to BM a wreck and wait for it to show up in shared book marks something that in on itself can take an age.
So in order for me to catch a capital in a site it has to be a minimum of 1 minute into its siege/triage timer, and that's with me doing everything perfectly.
So if you still haven't spotted on your probes the new sigg in your system then to be totally honest with you, your incompetent and have no business living in Bob's space.
I have lived in WH space since its introduction, i have spent the last 2 years in Hard Knocks running capital escalations 3 or 4 times a week. And we have never lost a PVE fleet, in fact as it stands the only conceivable way i can imagine loosing one is to be Blood Union'ed.
So yes please, I personally fully endorse encourage this idea, the best iteration suggestion so far is that the K162's only showing once you have jumped. Because the current state of PVE affairs in WH space is untenable.
I get the point that you're making here, and I do agree that a shift to only showing the sig on the other side once the jump has been made would improve things for a lot of people doing a lot of different things, without really having too serious a negative downside. I absolutely don't agree with the change as originally proposed. |
|
Karen Galeo
Sin Factory Infinite Anarchy
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:08:00 -
[141] - Quote
Right, lots of thoughts in this thread already. One of my favorites:
[quote[And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.[/quote]
I absolutely think that the new sigs should not show up on the overlay, and I would be fine with a 30 - 45 second delay before the K162 is probable - time for the scout who scanned down the named side to warp to it, jump through, and hold their cloak. Any longer than that (the aforementioned 5 mins +/- 2 that someone brought up, or the 15 min someone said, or the 20 minutes it'd take for the sig to propagate at .1 AU/s across a 120 AU system) and things tilt far too far in favor of the people who opened the hole.
This will affect more than just the 'targeted' cap escalation fleets - especially if the delay is higher (!) for a bigger threat, like a larger hole. Author of the Karen 162 blog. Karen Galeo is running for CSM9! |
Spillrag
Lazerhawks
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:11:00 -
[142] - Quote
please yes |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:12:00 -
[143] - Quote
Intana Kreis wrote:I doubt if any of the complicated mechanisms a lot of players outlined above have a hope of ever being implemented. It'll turn out that a wormhole is actually a special case of some other object, doesn't have any of the properties needed to implement the necessary statistics, and adding in all the dependencies would be half a POS-rewrite worth of code.
who said it will be wh specific? I'm pretty sure it will work for ALL k162 in the game and not only in wh Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2074
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:16:00 -
[144] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:besides, killing farming fleet on site is not about getting their isk, is about getting the kills themself, who cares if i grab their loot or not if i kill their triage and dreads in the process
And here lies one telltale issue.
Something like this is going to make it far more dangerous to make isk in WH space. That being said while WH income is good, it really doesn't get "great" until C5+
C1-C4 income can get pretty decent, but when you factor in all of the "extra" stuff the isk/hr really isn't amazing. You have the logistics/cost of a POS. You have the logistics of getting loot to market, manually splitting isk between members (since it isn't bounty based). You have lots of static rolling to hope to keep isk flowing vs respawning 0.0 anoms and unlimited missions.
Bottom line is something this drastic will likely empty out much of C1-C4 space. I roam around a fair amount and it is already empty enough. I want more groups to come live in WH space, not fewer.
What I still don't get is what is the goal? I don't recall people really complaining hard about this issue until the overlay came about. So fix the overlay issue. Either disable it in WH space or make it scan at such a low frequency it is not viable as a passive intel tool. Why is there suddenly a need to swing the pendulum farther? |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:17:00 -
[145] - Quote
Karen Galeo wrote:Right, lots of thoughts in this thread already. One of my favorites: Quote:And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. I absolutely think that the new sigs should not show up on the overlay, and I would be fine with a 30 - 45 second delay before the K162 is probable - time for the scout who scanned down the named side to warp to it, jump through, and hold their cloak. Any longer than that (the aforementioned 5 mins +/- 2 that someone brought up, or the 15 min someone said, or the 20 minutes it'd take for the sig to propagate at .1 AU/s across a 120 AU system) and things tilt far too far in favor of the people who opened the hole. This will affect more than just the 'targeted' cap escalation fleets - especially if the delay is higher (!) for a bigger threat, like a larger hole.
i kind of agree that defenders indeed have few extra secionds due to warp time and jump time scanner have to perform.
But i would take no more than 20 seconds into consideration (if the goal is to just balance the time scanner need to actually appear in system)
Covert ops (t3 are in disadvantage here) need less than 10 sec to land on wh (unless huge system) and another 5 -10 seconds to load new system after clicking jump. period. t3's need few more seconds of warp. so in avarage from the moment scaner calls warp to the moment he is in the system its 20 secs, give or take 5 sec. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:18:00 -
[146] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:Intana Kreis wrote:I doubt if any of the complicated mechanisms a lot of players outlined above have a hope of ever being implemented. It'll turn out that a wormhole is actually a special case of some other object, doesn't have any of the properties needed to implement the necessary statistics, and adding in all the dependencies would be half a POS-rewrite worth of code. who said it will be wh specific? I'm pretty sure it will work for ALL k162 in the game and not only in wh
Uh... I'm pretty sure the're referring to the actual wormholes, not wormhole space. All K162s are one side of a wormhole, that hole just doesn't necessarily go to or from an Anoikis system. |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:20:00 -
[147] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:besides, killing farming fleet on site is not about getting their isk, is about getting the kills themself, who cares if i grab their loot or not if i kill their triage and dreads in the process And here lies one telltale issue. Something like this is going to make it far more dangerous to make isk in WH space. That being said while WH income is good, it really doesn't get "great" until C5+ C1-C4 income can get pretty decent, but when you factor in all of the "extra" stuff the isk/hr really isn't amazing. You have the logistics/cost of a POS. You have the logistics of getting loot to market, manually splitting isk between members (since it isn't bounty based). You have lots of static rolling to hope to keep isk flowing vs respawning 0.0 anoms and unlimited missions. Bottom line is something this drastic will likely empty out much of C1-C4 space. I roam around a fair amount and it is already empty enough. I want more groups to come live in WH space, not fewer. What I still don't get is what is the goal? I don't recall people really complaining hard about this issue until the overlay came about. So fix the overlay issue. Either disable it in WH space or make it scan at such a low frequency it is not viable as a passive intel tool. Why is there suddenly a need to swing the pendulum farther?
exactly - the overlay is the problem, so i think the overlay - at least for k162 - should be delayed (no need for delaying other sugnals as they are not imidiate threat that attacker can exploit) but leave probes as they are right now. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
607
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:50:00 -
[148] - Quote
Aurora Fatalis wrote:Instead of instantly being revealed to the entire system at once, what if the data of a new K162 spawning propagated at some speed, say, 0.1 AU/s?
You could probe it down if your probe was lucky enough to be close to the spawn site, but one alt doing a system-encompassing scan would likely not. That leaves the counterplay of having scouts for advance warning, but doesn't make it ridiculously easy to pull off.
I know it's different from any other system in EVE, but now I kind of want Dscan to propagate at something like 1 AU as well... This is interesting. A signature spawns and begins to announce it's presence gradually, like a water ripple effect, starting at 1 AU and increasing in size untill it is seen from anywhere in the system.
This adds some interesting mechanics because depending on where the signature spawned different parts of the system would be notified of it at different times.
I wonder if it is even possible to implement or how it would've behaved in very large/small systems. CSM9 Candidate: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326853 Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/asayanami Twitter: https://twitter.com/Asayanami
|
Nox52
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 00:50:00 -
[149] - Quote
Against the proposed implementation. If I do something active I should have a result for it. I click on guns, I shoot something. I press dscan I get a result. If I probe something I should get a sig result not empty space.
Change it to how it was before if a sig spawns don't show it on overlay until it gets scanned. And really wh shouldn't spawn on he far side until something went through.
It's just silly. If someone rolls into me I should be able to scan their hole down put a scan though it and get intel so I can put a good fleet comp on the hole or their system.
If it does go through how about we also take the opportunity to introduce delayed local for those entering k space from whs. About 5 minutes should do it right? |
A Research Alt
Perkone Caldari State
146
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:01:00 -
[150] - Quote
I'd be all over this as soon as AFK cloaking wasn't a thing anymore.
(this is a dumb, bad idea) |
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4498
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:04:00 -
[151] - Quote
Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.
My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space.
Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
435
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:04:00 -
[152] - Quote
A Research Alt wrote:I'd be all over this as soon as AFK cloaking wasn't a thing anymore.
(this is a dumb, bad idea) Let's please not try and tie the absolute minefield that a cloaking mechanic discussion gets into with a discussion of incoming WH sig delays.
Any idea looks reasonable compared to the angry rhetoric that gets thrown around in an AFK cloaking threadnaught. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2075
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:13:00 -
[153] - Quote
Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole.
I'm sorry but it's elitists like you that think all WH changes should exist to affect those at the top (C5+ dwellers).
Sub C5 people are not making BILLIONS like they do running cap escalations. A good C2/C3 corp may pull of close to incursion isk/hr once you factor in all of the extra cost and logistics of living in WH space. And that requires lots of static farming, which is already more risky than C5 cap escalations in your home system.
Implementing all of the changes as you say, would render much of Sub C5 space into a ghost town. It's empty enough as it is.
What is wrong with simply rolling back the overlay scanner? People seemed pretty happy for years until that came about.
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:13:00 -
[154] - Quote
Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole.
Nine times out of ten if someone rolls into you your caps are stuck in place or scrammed. If you don't have a PvP fleet onstandby or able to get scrambled, then you're probably going to die to a decent group. It's not all that risk free. |
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:22:00 -
[155] - Quote
Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole.
Can you explain how its risk free for us to be locked in a site at the mercy of whoever rolls into us?
Things are on a scale here, and this change moves the scale in a direction towards increased risk associated with earning isk. We're not farmers.. everyone needs to earn isk.. what we are is a small group. When a larger group rolls into us while site running there isnt much we can do as it is. This change just makes it easier for the attacker
So, i object to your assertion that I'm speaking from a standpoint of self-entitlement. Its actually self preservation. I don't see how having additional risk associated with living in a c5 wh will help smaller groups like ours. As it stands, a proper t3 fleet would pose a real threat to our site running fleet.
I should also add that if you're finding it impossible to jump people while site running, you have plenty of time as it stands to dscan down our anom and get a warpin for your fleet - im really not sure why you feel we're operating risk free when we run sites |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:37:00 -
[156] - Quote
Faxanadu Phantasm your question has already been answered by multiple people in this very thread you should probably read them before posting.
In fact most the people i see posting in this thread that WH space is already to dangerous have hardly lost any ships in it.....
I'd love to know how much ISK is lost in ship losses compared to how much ISK is made in W-Space, im willing to bet there is a HUGE discrepancy. |
TheGreatBelow
The Red Circle Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:41:00 -
[157] - Quote
Christ, this is a horribad idea. This will drive people out of wh space rather than encourage them in.
We need more content. More **** that gets ships out of POSs. I don't care if its mining, running sites, PI, industry - all of it becomes PvP in the end. More people in wspace means more targets. What we need is more reasons for people to want to come.
Oh, but I'll take the scanner back to pre-odyssey as a compromise. Back when scanning meant something. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2683
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:42:00 -
[158] - Quote
I have to disagree with the idea that W-space is too safe. My corp has some W-space dwellers, and it is quite dangerous. Making it more so is not a step in the right direction. I disagree with this idea. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Sith1s Spectre
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
786
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:58:00 -
[159] - Quote
Love the fact Nullsec gets instant intel with local yet with these proposed changes - WHs can't even keep track of their sigs.
Personally - i'm all for the changes as we run regular hole collapsing fleets, but just comparing it to other truesec areas.
Regards,
Sith Sky Fighters - WH Space Mercs. -áFor more details https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286708&find=unread
|
White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:05:00 -
[160] - Quote
I agree with delaying the sig from showing up on the sensor overlay for a minute or two, but if people are scanning with probes out and doing the right thing. Why should they be put at a disadvantage. This change seems like it would only benefit large pvp groups. I think it would have the opposite effect desired. Discouraging people from WH space, if even when they were paying attention and doing the right thing there was no way for them mitigate risk. Furthermore I think this would only lower the bar for larger group's, pandering lower skill instead of rewarding those with high skill. |
|
Pseudo Ucksth
B0rthole
170
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:07:00 -
[161] - Quote
I am all for making wormhole space more risky but a ~unavoidable delay~ is unreasonable. There's got to be some way to mitigate it, even if it's just having a dedicated person on probes. Which people should have either way.
Doing this change will result in one of two outcomes: Even more people moving out of wormholes, or corps blobbing together to make wormhole coalitions. Is that what you want? Nullsec politics without stargates?
I went to live in a wormhole to get away from coalitions. I'll have nowhere to go but highsec if they end up in wspace.
Don't do to wspace what you did to lowsec incursions. |
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:11:00 -
[162] - Quote
Pseudo Ucksth wrote:I am all for making wormhole space more risky but a ~unavoidable delay~ is unreasonable. There's got to be some way to mitigate it, even if it's just having a dedicated person on probes. Which people should have either way.
Doing this change will result in one of two outcomes: Even more people moving out of wormholes, or corps blobbing together to make wormhole coalitions. Is that what you want? Nullsec politics without stargates?
I went to live in a wormhole to get away from coalitions. I'll have nowhere to go but highsec if they end up in wspace.
Don't do to wspace what you did to lowsec incursions.
This |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
45
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:15:00 -
[163] - Quote
This is a good change though it's only step one. There has been a lot of environmental damage done by K-Space "improvements" to the habitat of W-Space and more changes need to go in AT THE SAME TIME AS THIS to repair whats happened.
What this thread needs is a history lesson on the changes made to w-space over the years.
Originally all signatures had to be probed, no green sigs for us to warp to straight away. Wormhole K162 signatures appeared when the far side wormhole had warp initiated upon it. You protected yourself by throwing out either core or deep space probes across your whole system, ding the button once and ignore everything. You roll the wormhole (deliberately pushing large mass through it to collapse it) to guarantee that it hasn't been opened by someone and no one will sneak up on you through it. The prober keeps scanning for new sigs, the rest of the fleet dscans for login traps. You get something on either you quickly remove any sleepers keeping you in the site and you head home. Overall pretty safe. There are multiple chances for the defender to discover the threat and leave.
An attacker has to get into system, push off the WH, drop scan probes somewhere not seen (not always possible), get a 100% (ideally in one sweep), yank the probes, create a perch (you can't warp in close straight off unless your ship can take them due to other stuff being around that'll decloak you and scare the target off), drop in next to the defenders and then call in the fleet. All this while hoping that none of the countermeasures listed above got tripped.
It all meant that if you lost your fleet while doing sites, it was your own fault, you wen't doing something right. It took a lot of luck and real skill on the part of the attackers to get a kill.
We then gained the green sigs, this put all the standard anomalies into always 100% anomalies. This was a good change and my bookmark folder thanks you. This did mean that defenders lost a layer of protection, dscan picking up scan probes, but there were other countermeasures so no big deal. The super vulnerable, hackers, miners gas harvesters, were still protected by their sites still needing to be probed.
Then Ore sites became 100%ers too. This pretty much killed off w-space mining. Tracking down a fleet moving among a dozen or more sleeper sites is one thing, tracking down a barge sitting in among 1-3 ore sites is another. If your scan coverage (which you need to reset every hour or so) didn't pick up the new sig, you were gone inside a couple of minutes. Mining barges have zero defence vs an attacker, even the more EHP ones now just die a bit slower. ECM won't save you and your flight of lights isn't going to kill anything before you drop.
Finally we got the Discovery Scanner. No more need to have cover probes out, CCP has you covered instead. Not that the discovery scanner updates at easily identifiable times, though never fear you can force an update by clicking anything in it. If you do get into the system before everyone runs off due to the bright green diamond on their screen, the skill it takes to find people is even less. You used to have to at least BM the site then align to it to get an idea of which site it was with a narrow dscan, now, those sites are already displayed. Nice an easy.
If you're going to change this, you NEED to make Ore sites back to scannable for W-Space. W-Space just got a boost due to the refinery changes, give them the slight safety to actually use it. Don't start the no scan timer on the K162 until someone jumps the WH and make the timer around the 30-60s mark, that's plenty of head start for hunters. Without that we'll loose most of the time just warping to the WH. Give the Discovery Scanner UI a timer to show when t updates or make it update every server tick. It feels like it's broken at the moment. And while you're in there, change the polarisation timer to be something based off the ship hull instead of a flat time for everybody. I'd personally like to see it be based off sensor strength, would give ECCM an additional use.
And finally, thanks for actually looking at W-Space... COme chat in the Wormholes section once in a while |
Kirin Xaxos
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:17:00 -
[164] - Quote
I fail to see how this would add content to WH space in the long run. I understand the delay on the sensor overlay. But delay on being able to probe it down? There is already WH mechanisms in place to force content from WH's is called siege. Why lower the skill needed for the gank fleet up the skill needed for the defending fleet? How is that balance? |
Red Teufel
Conflagrated Authority
358
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:17:00 -
[165] - Quote
Dont touch WH space it's the only space that is working. don't punish vigilant players to get ganked with no incentive to fight. this change will only buff large groups in WH space. how about making an in game WH mapping tool to increase the flow of pilots using WHs. |
Align Planet1
Cauldron-Born Legion The Cauldron-Born
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:19:00 -
[166] - Quote
Fozzie:
It would be much better if you would state your goals for these type of changes explicitly, instead of offering euphemisms like "a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience." If you think people are making too much money in WH space with too little risk, you should just say so. Having to parse through a load of BS to get to why we need a "shake up," and what exactly is the "best part of the wormhole experience" is tiresome, and inhibits a straightforward discussion of why the proposed mechanic should exist.
Regards, AP1 |
Pseudo Ucksth
B0rthole
170
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:23:00 -
[167] - Quote
Align Planet1 wrote:It would be much better if you would state your goals for these type of changes explicitly, instead of offering euphemisms
In the ten years I have been playing this game that has not been CCP's MO in around eight. |
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:23:00 -
[168] - Quote
If you think this a wonderful and exciting game play change Fozzie then make it apply to k-space. Make it so when you jump into local in null or low or high sec you are delayed from showing up for 15 minutes. Hell lets take away the gate activation animation and the sound it makes as well. You want to see more ganking/small scale pvp, then do not **** over just wormholes with terrible changes to game mechanics. Apply it to everyone. Hell while you are at it how about allowing people to warp straight to mission runners in acceleration gated areas. You want more pvp don't you? |
md5oogle
Insanely Twisted D3vil's Childr3n
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:23:00 -
[169] - Quote
-1 |
Turon Gorp
Sleepless Dynamics. Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:24:00 -
[170] - Quote
in my opinion is the delay mechanism unnatural for reality. apart from this is the mechanism not really impartial and that fact destroying the hole idea behind the sand box stuff.
regards
|
|
Varial Flayer
Wormbro Ocularis Inferno
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:30:00 -
[171] - Quote
ITT: People who think this is a good idea don't live in W-Space.... |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4946
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:30:00 -
[172] - Quote
Pseudo Ucksth wrote:I am all for making wormhole space more risky but a ~unavoidable delay~ is unreasonable. There's got to be some way to mitigate it, even if it's just having a dedicated person on probes. Which people should have either way.
Doing this change will result in one of two outcomes: Even more people moving out of wormholes, or corps blobbing together to make wormhole coalitions. Is that what you want? Nullsec politics without stargates?
I went to live in a wormhole to get away from coalitions. I'll have nowhere to go but highsec if they end up in wspace.
Don't do to wspace what you did to lowsec incursions. What do you mean even more people moving out of wormholes? I was unaware of some mass exodus out of one of the most profitable parts of the game.
And what do you mean by wormhole coalitions? How does this change even remotely promote coalitions? How would a coalition member not already in the same wormhole system respond to aid someone under attack in that system? . |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
54
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:33:00 -
[173] - Quote
Varial Flayer wrote:ITT: People who think this is a good idea don't live in W-Space....
or else are in corps which do a lot of ganking siterunning fleets. |
Tyrant Scorn
106
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:33:00 -
[174] - Quote
Delaying signatures from Probe Scans is the worst idea in the history of CCP idea's.
If you are going to make new signatures undetectable, then make new visitors sensor blind... The way the mechanics work right now is fair, the hunter gets an equal chance and the hunted get an equal chance.
Hunted targets are paying attention and spot the new signature, they are actively playing the game and deserve to get away or prepare for a fight.
If the hunted targets are not paying attention and leaving things to chance or playing with a movie on a second screen, they deserve to get caught, simple as daylight !!!
The very same concept goes for the hunter, who, if a skilled D-scanner and active player, can catch targets fairly fast, I can do it in 10 seconds flat and so can any veteran wormholers if they trained themselves in catching targets. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4501
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:35:00 -
[175] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole. I'm sorry but it's elitists like you that think all WH changes should exist to affect those at the top (C5+ dwellers). Sub C5 people are not making BILLIONS like they do running cap escalations. A good C2/C3 corp may pull of close to incursion isk/hr once you factor in all of the extra cost and logistics of living in WH space. And that requires lots of static farming, which is already more risky than C5 cap escalations in your home system. Implementing all of the changes as you say, would render much of Sub C5 space into a ghost town. It's empty enough as it is. What is wrong with simply rolling back the overlay scanner? People seemed pretty happy for years until that came about.
Perhaps you might try reading what I was replying to, or even what I wrote way back on page 1 of this thread. I don't think lower class holes need more safety, though I do think they should have to at least work to get safety, just like they used to have to before the discovery scanner.
The fact of the matter is that the C5/C6 "dwellers" are what are making you so poor in the first place. I put dwellers in quotes because the farming operations are what I am specifically referring to. Many, many groups are farming C5s (mostly) with a small number of alts and making billions of ISK per week. Their risk is quite limited, and the profits are large enough to allow them to even lose a fleet every month and come out ahead.
Also, you are pants-on-head ******** if you think sub-C5 space is a ghost town. I'd say that probably 75% of C2s are occupied, and it is closer to 95% of ones with a static highsec. Sure, C4s are pretty empty, but finding an un-occupied C2 or C1 is pretty rare. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Thead Enco
Killing is Business Get Off My Lawn
108
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:38:00 -
[176] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.
We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent). We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.
Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely. Thanks! -Fozzie
Were ratting dreads a problem?
-á"A Lannister always pays his debts."
-áTyrion Lannister |
Tyrant Scorn
106
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:39:00 -
[177] - Quote
BTW, there is already a glitch that causes a delay in the scanner overlay and it very much acts as the bookmark delay in corporation bookmarks, sometimes they update instantly and sometimes it takes 5 minutes... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4502
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:39:00 -
[178] - Quote
Also, there seem to be a lot of people who think even the largest groups can just form up a blob in less than 5 minutes. If you aren't already rolling holes with the intent to gank site runners, it takes time to get folks formed up. It takes time to identify which anomoly or signature people are at. All this change would do is at a minimum (if the discovery scanner was delayed) require people to put in a small amount of effort (mash scan button) to detect incoming K162s. If you want to make the big bucks, you need to be at big risk, and that simply isn't true right now in C5 space and most of C6 space. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:40:00 -
[179] - Quote
Why not disable the sensor overlay all together in W-space? Delaying the sig from showing up even to active scanners looking for new sigs seems to favor the attacking side too heavily. That would give the attacking side more then enough time blob or counter with ECM anything the defending side had before they even knew there was a fight on their hands. I think this change would discourage smaller corps from entering W-space at all. We came to WH space for the challenge. I think it would take much of the pride and feeling of accomplishment from kills if you know the defenders are, from the get go, already at such a disadvantage. |
Powers Sa
971
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:43:00 -
[180] - Quote
Seelen Jager wrote:Just go back to having to probe all wormhole sigs. Having some arbitrary delay is just dumb.
lol |
|
The Fong
Recreational Vehicle Enthusiasts Club - WH Chapter Corrosive.
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:47:00 -
[181] - Quote
I'm a full time WH purist living in a C5 in a small but growing alliance. I'd support a delay to sig visibility on the scanner under two conditions:
1) Active signature continue to provide real-time intel for the vigilant. Like the old days.
2) Ore sites are made signatures instead of anomalies. Like the old days.
I'll go so far as to predict a solution like I've outlined here will be what is implemented. I support these views because I don't want halftime nullsec outfits running skeleton crews deflating the price of my jam. See exhibit A, the recent deflation of the nanoribbon. C5s aren't your cash cow, buddy.
We actually use our ore sites because going to k-space for anything other than attacking nullseccers or selling blue tags is bad luck. Like stepping on the cracks on the sidewalk, break your mother's back. In return we get ore, ridicule, and a lossboard so littered with retrievers it would make even the worst nullsec industrial corp blush. Ore sites in WH are much less safe than mining in remote parts of null. Some may say it is even as dangerous as highsec mining these days. |
Red Teufel
Conflagrated Authority
359
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:47:00 -
[182] - Quote
Two step wrote:Also, there seem to be a lot of people who think even the largest groups can just form up a blob in less than 5 minutes. If you aren't already rolling holes with the intent to gank site runners, it takes time to get folks formed up. It takes time to identify which anomoly or signature people are at. All this change would do is at a minimum (if the discovery scanner was delayed) require people to put in a small amount of effort (mash scan button) to detect incoming K162s. If you want to make the big bucks, you need to be at big risk, and that simply isn't true right now in C5 space and most of C6 space.
it's ganking on easy mode dude. It will force coalitions to form, a WH blue waffle, WH space will become monopolized like SoV is. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
54
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:47:00 -
[183] - Quote
Two step wrote:. All this change would do is at a minimum (if the discovery scanner was delayed) require people to put in a small amount of effort (mash scan button) to detect incoming K162s.
At a minimum? You're completely wrong about that, the initial proposal is to have PHYSICALLY NO WAY of detecting that signature until the time is passed. I suppose you could combat scan decloaked ships sitting on the wormhole, but fozzie is suggesting that PROBES WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FIND THE K162. Is that clear enough? You seem to have missed the fact that having it not available without probes, but available with them, is something that's been suggested as a compromise, rather than what Fozzie was suggesting in the first place. If you read the original post properly, you'll see this is what it says (emphasis mine):
CCP Fozzie wrote:This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
I should point out this would also stop a fleet who do want to PvP with whoever rolled into them, be that a group that are about to use caps to close their static or one with fifty T3s ready to rock, from finding that hole and getting their own scout onto or through it without using combat probes and relying on a ship sitting decloaked on the hole. This is going to have the effect of reducing a lot of kinds of non-ganking PvP.
as to the rest of your post, the "Big risk" is at least partially offered by the fact that there are billions of isk in capital ships, fixed in place, for the entire time you are doing your PvE. No other PvE activity has that requirement. Then there's the player and character skill involved. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:53:00 -
[184] - Quote
Red Teufel wrote:
it's ganking on easy mode dude. It will force coalitions to form, a WH blue waffle, WH space will become monopolized like SoV is.
It will do nothing of the sort, if anything it will just reduce the amount of bear holes we have. At the same time it will lower supply of sleeper loot and increase the price. It might cause a few corporations to grow as pilots will flock to them but it will not create coalitions. |
eiedu
Boris Johnson's Love Children Awakened.
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:54:00 -
[185] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.
This is literally the only sensible post I've seen on here. Fixing the k162 spawn would in fact make it easier for a rolling fleet to get a gank/fight. I'm pretty sure this would also require less effort than building a whole new mechanic around it with delayed intel and what-not.
On the other hand, you could also make it so that your static wormhole is always open, which would make more sense from a physics perspective (I think, cus when did bob decide a natural occurence was going to bend to your will?)
I think that changing mechanics like this too much and too fast will lead to some people giving up w-space. And that would be a shame, there are so few of us already. |
Desimus Maximus
Adeptus Mechanicus.
43
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:55:00 -
[186] - Quote
I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.
W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.
If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.
If you want to fight, then go to low or nullsec you pussies. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
54
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:56:00 -
[187] - Quote
eiedu wrote:Arkon Olacar wrote:Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears. This is literally the only sensible post I've seen on here. Fixing the k162 spawn would in fact make it easier for a rolling fleet to get a gank/fight. I'm pretty sure this would also require less effort than building a whole new mechanic around it with delayed intel and what-not. On the other hand, you could also make it so that your static wormhole is always open, which would make more sense from a physics perspective (I think, cus when did bob decide a natural occurence was going to bend to your will?) I think that changing mechanics like this too much and too fast will lead to some people giving up w-space. And that would be a shame, there are so few of us already.
I can see an argument from the physics perspective for your ship triggering the spawning of the other end of the wormhole by entering it. Far more than I can from just warping. |
Niko Domani
Unknown Crusade
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:57:00 -
[188] - Quote
Two pennies on the subject: live in wh, and you can bet your *** we are checking for new sigs forming on the scanner. But simultaniously my group almost never misses the scanner that has just cone through showing up on dscan. Its only a handfull of seconds but we still catch it 90% of the time. The people we hunt, however, seem to miss both. So, not going to materialy change things for us one way or another. But I can see making things more "dangerous as you travel deeper into wspace. I like the both mass timer and manual timer, but make it a % mass transit. Higher end wh allow more people through before detection of the k162, and make the secondary time variable change based on the c# of the wh its in (almost instant c1, longer c6). Lore wise call it dependant on the volotile nature of wspace, getting further away from the anomolies that cause wh effects. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:57:00 -
[189] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote: I should point out this would also stop a fleet who do want to PvP with whoever rolled into them, be that a group that are about to use caps to close their static or one with fifty T3s ready to rock, from finding that hole and getting their own scout onto or through it without using combat probes and relying on a ship sitting decloaked on the hole. This is going to have the effect of reducing a lot of kinds of non-ganking PvP.
as to the rest of your post, the "Big risk" is at least partially offered by the fact that there are billions of isk in capital ships, fixed in place, for the entire time you are doing your PvE. No other PvE activity has that requirement. Then there's the player and character skill involved.
You are dead wrong. This will not reduce PvP opportunities at all, if a corp is ready for a fight the two or three minute timer is not going to stop them. |
Alundil
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
436
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:58:00 -
[190] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Love the fact Nullsec gets instant intel with local yet with these proposed changes - WHs can't even keep track of their sigs.
Personally - i'm all for the changes as we run regular hole collapsing fleets, but just comparing it to other truesec areas.
Regards,
Sith Imagine that right?
Disable the discovery scanner. This is bad and has been bad since it was implemented.
As has been said by many, active players actively playing the game ought to have some benefit from doing so (Intel with regard to this discussion).
Disallowing players from seeing the new signature when using probes is bad design and completely counter to how the scanning system works.
There is no reason why ore sites should have ever been made into anomalies. Return them to scannable objects.
Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
|
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:59:00 -
[191] - Quote
Desimus Maximus wrote:IProblem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.
This is so amusing, don't stop. Please. |
Tyrant Scorn
107
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:01:00 -
[192] - Quote
I really think people need to open their eyes and consider that the way it is right is fair. When you're on the ball and you pay attention, nothing can catch you, that's how it should be. The same goes for the hunter, if you know what you're doing you will catch people who don't.
It doesn't get more fair then that. Giving any sort of delay to K162's is unfair because it gives any hunter a head start which they should not have. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Dyscordia
Super Elite Friendship Club
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:05:00 -
[193] - Quote
"The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes."
This is not a good idea. Disclaimer, I dive wormholes for pew and ganks. I do not farm them for pve. I do not argue for a "safer environment". I do however think that just making a blanket change like this will not fix wormholes the way you intend them to be fixed.
This proposed mechanic above would undeniably increase risk for those who are vigilant which I find annoying. If you are paying attention, you should not be rewarded with a loss mail due to a game mechanic the game designers think would be great to capture an essence of danger. On the receiving side of getting a loss, this would just be infuriating since my intel is faulty. This change is really giving an unfair advantage to lazy gankers. As a ganker, I want to work and hunt my prey. I could spend days in a wormhole watching prey and their habits to hit them for the biggest kill mail possible. This is how it should be. It's already extremely easy to catch a solo drake or a poorly fit megathron running a site. This change would give sub par pvpers bragging rights to kills they may have not deserved due to intel that was impossible for vigilant people to get because of game mechanics. It's like poisoning the bull before the matador even steps in the arena. The chessboard should not be tilted one way over another just to "shake things up". It will probably cause more problems down the road, like how implementing an overlay that gives all intel away really easily did.
If you must make a change to how scanning and overlays should work, I would recommend having sigs only appear that are within your 14.3 AU scan radius. This would be beneficial in a few ways.
1) It adds a sense danger since a single pilot cannot cover most of the systems that exist in eve all at once.
2) It makes system size a decision factor when moving into or camping a wormhole. It sort of is now, but not really. Large systems are more of an inconvenience than anything else, but there is no real added danger at the moment since all ships can detect sigs to pretty much infinity. You could also add a mechanic to make the pve extremely more rewarding in larger systems and nerf smaller systems. I do not want to see large systems vacant. Making players have more decisions and plotting out their livelihood is good in EVE.
3) It encourages teamwork. Or at the very least more alts. Larger systems would require more players to properly watch and keep locked down. More alt subs are good no?
4) It adds the ability to later redesign or introduce new ships/modules that are capable of scanning out further than 14.3 au giving further specialization and utility options for pilots who specialize. I'd throw this in the 'Decision making is good' category.
5) This does not break a cardinal rule here. I can't think of one mechanic in eve where intel is delayed. Do Cynos show up 2 minutes after they are lit? Do hostiles show up in local 2 minutes after entering a system? I'm not sure why sigs should be different? How does breaking this reliable intel system in EVE add that sense of wonder wormholes held many years ago?
No matter what change you make, people will adapt, write guides and share ways to "safe up". People will make tools like the now defunct wormnav. People will always find a way to systematically take the risk out of their livelihoods. Instead of making blanket changes, take a holistic look on how you want EVE to be played. I would try to engineer mechanics that force decisions and actions. Not give or take away intel. That will fix nothing. I know the answer is that the old code will be impossible to make a change like this - but these are the types of solutions that are only beneficial for the longevity of EVE. Making a huge change like the creation of an overlay, then the subsequent ad hoc nerf of the overlay an expansion later has me scratching my head. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
420
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:07:00 -
[194] - Quote
If your heart is set on this though.. here is how you implement it.
1) The scanner can or cannot go back to the original way, that's up to you. 2) If you want to do this delayed wormhole spawn move, give the players the method of making the wormhole themselves, and make it a deployable that generates wormholes (Yes I know people hate the idea, but you can restrict it in a few ways.
a) Only allow the deployable to work in wormhole space, and the generated wormhole connects to another wormhole (no kspace connections through the generated hole, and this cannot be dropped in kspace to generate wormholes).
b) limit the mass and the jump amount. A meta 1 generator allows only cruiser and below, and has a maximum of 10 to 12 jumps (meaning it can be jumped 12 times total, regardless of mass of ship that jumped it). A meta 2 generator allows battlecruisers and below, and has a maximum of 15 jumps. A meta 3, battleships and 20 jumps. Meta 1's connect to c1 and c2 wormholes, meta 2 connect to c3 and c4 wormholes, meta 3 connect to c5 and c6 wormholes (you can't choose the wormhole type directly, it is random). Note: C1's regardless of the deployable, still has its mass limit (no battleships or above even if it was a meta 3 generator, can pass through the hole).
c) The generator cloaks itself, the wormhole and about 10k surrounding itself (Functions exactly like a mobile scan inhibitor, except it cloaks itself also). This cloak lasts from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. The decay on the wormhole lasts roughly 6 hours to 24 hours (can be balanced as need be).
This does a few things. It allows players an alternate to rolling holes. It Gives them their "gank" chance, it allows people to do intel before being discovered (your 10 to 30 minute window), and it does not f-up the original k162 concepts. In addition, it allows small gangs to function as small gangs as the wormhole itself has a jump limit not based off of mass, but amount of times jumped (So you can bring a gang of 5 people, drop one, jump in, find a target or not, warp farther into his system, drop a second, jump it, and you have a small highway going, and the potential for an actual "roam". After the 10 to 30 minutes, other people can find them, use its highway (even possibly close it behind you), and come after you. You left a "TRAIL" for people to track you.
This addresses this whole new concept by use of a deployable. The farmers are not immune anymore, but they are not totally helpless as there is only so many ships the corp can jump into the system (they can jump enough to return, or commit a large fleet and trap themselves there, and possibly probe themselves out later).
I don't know if this would cause more fights or not, but it would give the hunters a bit of a method to actually "hunt". In other-words, give the player a new method in wormhole space. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:08:00 -
[195] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote: I should point out this would also stop a fleet who do want to PvP with whoever rolled into them, be that a group that are about to use caps to close their static or one with fifty T3s ready to rock, from finding that hole and getting their own scout onto or through it without using combat probes and relying on a ship sitting decloaked on the hole. This is going to have the effect of reducing a lot of kinds of non-ganking PvP.
as to the rest of your post, the "Big risk" is at least partially offered by the fact that there are billions of isk in capital ships, fixed in place, for the entire time you are doing your PvE. No other PvE activity has that requirement. Then there's the player and character skill involved.
You are dead wrong. This will not reduce PvP opportunities at all, if a corp is ready for a fight the two or three minute timer is not going to stop them.
It would make it easier for someone to roll away their static without having any chance of getting forced into a fight. It also further pushes the intelligence offered towards one side - the incoming side can have their scouts wherever they want, while the other corp can't scan down the hole to put their own eyes through it. I don't know about you, but I don't know that many people that will bring a fleet out with absolutely no idea of what they're going into. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:10:00 -
[196] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:I really think people need to open their eyes and consider that the way it is right is fair. When you're on the ball and you pay attention, nothing can catch you, that's how it should be. The same goes for the hunter, if you know what you're doing you will catch people who don't.
It doesn't get more fair then that. Giving any sort of delay to K162's is unfair because it gives any hunter a head start which they should not have.
Ok I am going to explain it to you like I would to a five year old. CCP has stated time and time before that there should be NO SAFE or fair spot in EvE. Not even in high sec, there should be risk and reward everywhere. W-Space is at the top of that risk-reward pyramid, it should be very dangerous and very profitable. However, due to the CONSTANT skill point creep of the player base it got to the point that if you collapse all connections and drop probes then it becomes fairly safe. Understand?
This happened before the automatic update for the overlay. When that came along it skewed the balance even further. The result of those two events is the reason why the sleeper loot has been dropping in market value. So in the end what you have is that w-space is neither the most risky nor is it extremely profitable. Thus this change was proposed. Its not meant to be right or fair, in fact its MEANT to be unfair. Just like the siphon units this change is MEANT to provide an advantage to the aggressor. |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:11:00 -
[197] - Quote
W-space has been continually getting riskier, less profitable, and flat out more frustrating in my experience. But I love it, so I've been keeping it up even as losses became more common, my favorite method of hauling stuff to and from the WH was rendered impotent (My orca sits in the POS collecting dust when I used to enjoy thumbing my nose at Marmite with it. Most fun I've ever had in EVE was leading them on a merry chase 5 jumps through highsec before making it to my WH route), and rolling WH's became far less certain of a thing. (Pushing 3.5 bil mass through a 3 bil hole and cursing the WH for still being there). And then the scatter containers. Thought drops were supposed to get better because of those? I flat out gave up hacking because I seldom got more than 10 mil worth of drops from them even when I had 3 people helping to catch every last can. Thank goodness the defenders weren't taken away like with Null's radar and mag sites.
T3's got nerfed to where a 1.5 bil T3 had the same tank a 600 mil one did before the nerf to resist bonuses. Ore sites showing up as anoms, T3 and T3 components prices dropping dramatically.... I can make more isk more safely running a 275 mil Ishtar in nullsec right now than I can in my C5 with a carrier, and without the cost of fuel and hundreds of millions of isk wrapped up in pos modules.
This idea has SOME merit, but in its unaltered form it will flat out ruin W-life for anyone who doesn't have a highly active large group and several SMA's worth of PVP ships.
Additionally, in my experience there is already a fairly significant delay in new signatures appearing in the scanner unless you are actively probing or cycling the Show Anomalies option. It does appear somewhat random, but I can have a sig scanned down on one alt and the others scanner won't even have the new sig up 5 minutes later if I don't use one of those tricks.
One possible solution I can think of for this to work "better" would be to have transiting ships come through the exit already decloaked with the WH disabling their cloaks for 15-30 seconds while the sig is on the no-show timer so that the residents could at least see a new ship signature if they have combat probes out and are cycling them constantly. If the raider was in any sub-cap they would have to be exceedingly lucky to be able to scan down before the raiding ship finished its timer and cloaked, but would be able to tell they had interlopers if, like I said, they were spamming combat probes constantly. The 15-30 second window would require a ridiculously dedicated scanning pilot.... But at least they'd have a chance. And the scanning pilots would have nearly constant migraines, but meh.
TL:DR, keep giving pirates more tools and ruin those that are used by the more honest folks and the pirates will soon have no one to prey on but themselves. |
Shegunna Blow
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:11:00 -
[198] - Quote
As a wormhole dweller i whole-heartedly support the removal of the odyssey scanner from WH space. Diligence on the part of the K162 end of a WH is rewarded, while passively having a window open (much like watching local in K-space) is not.
I do not support delaying a K162 signature from being detected for minutes. If a sig is there, it should be detectable. Now, adding a time-delayed sig strength buff to make it nearly unscannable for a minute or two is a little different. This would make the signature visible, but not identifiable. This could be interesting. As mentioned far earlier in this post, removing all ability for WH residents or day-trippers to actively defend themselves while running sites, mining or huffing gas is way too far and unprecedented. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2077
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:11:00 -
[199] - Quote
Two step wrote:Perhaps you might try reading what I was replying to, or even what I wrote way back on page 1 of this thread. I don't think lower class holes need more safety, though I do think they should have to at least work to get safety, just like they used to have to before the discovery scanner.
Such is the difficulty of a 10 page threadnaught. It is hard enough to cross compile every post made by any one person and tie them back together. As such if my reply came across as knee jerk I do apologize.
I do agree that no WH's need to be any safer. I agree that the discovery scanner is BS and should be removed. Honestly IMO it is a noob mechanic designed to show players that this world of exploration exists and has little use beyond that. So I think it could go completely and the game would not suffer.
Two step wrote:Also, you are pants-on-head ******** if you think sub-C5 space is a ghost town. I'd say that probably 75% of C2s are occupied, and it is closer to 95% of ones with a static highsec. Sure, C4s are pretty empty, but finding an un-occupied C2 or C1 is pretty rare.
"ghost town" may have been an improper description. I have been doing far more roaming through our chain of late and yes I would say the majority (even C4's) I encounter are technically occupied. But most nights I can roam through chains 10+ systems long, with a mix of C4 down to C1 (and sometimes C5) where I can find nobody even seemingly logged in. I don't see a delayed k162 mechanic helping that situation.
IMO, the best option is to get rid of the discovery scanner. Just turn it off for W space at a minimum. Then after awhile with that change we can come back and talk. |
Winthorp
1386
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:11:00 -
[200] - Quote
James Arget wrote:I'll get my full post written out when this townhall is over, saving my spot in line for now.
Right then, I'm ducking out early to get this out before I run to work.
During the summit, I was very, very hesitant to endorse this idea. The current situation is, of course, not good, and I would very much like to see sig spawning return to pre-oddyssey behaviours. In particular, I think it's fair that if I want to see new signatures, that I should have to do something in order to gain that intel, and that getting it for free is too generous.
This change would be very very powerful for the spawning party, because even if the party who has been rolled into is actively looking for for incoming connections, they simply do not have a way to know it's there. A 1 tick appearance on dscan (assuming dscan is in range) is not a fair shot at knowing that you have hostiles inbound.
When I heard of this, I said that if such a change was to be enacted, that some kind of limit should be placed on the agressing party. In particular, I suggested that they be unable to leave the grid until the signature appeared. This means for whatever time window that the sig is invisible, a cloaked scout can begin the process of looking for ships, for wrecks, comparing ship losses in the system, identifying POCO owners, adjusting a fleet comp for wh effect, etc. Once the sig is up, they can hit warp to whatever location they've planned to go to, and the defenders are on the clock for realizing that there's a new signature.
This would go beyond rolling back to pre-oddyssey mechanics, and would still make it significantly more dangerous than pre-oddyssey, but would prevent people from getting jumped with absolutely no way to even know there could be ships inbound until they were on grid.
This would have to be my prefered method the changes take. We need to take back this perfect safety farmers currently have while still afording them some level of safety if they put in a level of effort to achieve that safety.
I want this perfect safety they have now taken away but i dont wont the balanced tipped to highly in our favour in hunting them either as nobody will farm then.
I disagree with the signature updating slowly this isnt a balanced feature for us to have our new static sig spawn in our home and it take minutes to spawn on the other side (who thought up that madness).
(Insert witty signature here) |
|
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
46
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:13:00 -
[201] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:I really think people need to open their eyes and consider that the way it is right is fair. When you're on the ball and you pay attention, nothing can catch you, that's how it should be. The same goes for the hunter, if you know what you're doing you will catch people who don't.
It doesn't get more fair then that. Giving any sort of delay to K162's is unfair because it gives any hunter a head start which they should not have.
But the defender already has an advantage in the sig showing up when warp is initiated. They have how long it takes me to align, warp, land, power to the wh, jump, load system and dscan to warp away.
If you want fair, then don't show the K162 until someone jumps the WH, or failing that due to a technical issue or some such, add a delay to when it's shown K162 side that's vaguely based off an average of how long all of what I listed above takes, kind of like whats being proposed by CCP Fozzie... |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
634
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:16:00 -
[202] - Quote
Keep it simples. We have the k162 open only when the first ship passes through and breaks invuln or a period of many minutes passes. That way the rollers get some small amount of time and can be well in system before their side is located. Adds a little extra element of danger without shaking things up too much.
It gives the first ship in a precious few seconds to get the edge regards dscan and getting the lay of the land but once you begin activity the k162 reveals itself. That way the defenders have to be more vigilant but it does not change the balance overly. I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:18:00 -
[203] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:I really think people need to open their eyes and consider that the way it is right is fair. When you're on the ball and you pay attention, nothing can catch you, that's how it should be. The same goes for the hunter, if you know what you're doing you will catch people who don't.
It doesn't get more fair then that. Giving any sort of delay to K162's is unfair because it gives any hunter a head start which they should not have. But the defender already has an advantage in the sig showing up when warp is initiated. They have how long it takes me to align, warp, land, power to the wh, jump, load system and dscan to warp away. If you want fair, then don't show the K162 until someone jumps the WH, or failing that due to a technical issue or some such, add a delay to when it's shown K162 side that's vaguely based off an average of how long all of what I listed above takes, kind of like whats being proposed by CCP Fozzie...
It doesn't take you multiple minutes to get to the wormhole unless you're in the habit of probing down your static with a capital.
I do think that a good compromise would be holding off on the K162 until someone jumped, along with the removal of the new scanning system, forcing use of actual scan probes and paying attention. |
Zainegardner
Tenacious Tendencies The Amalgamation Initiative
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:19:00 -
[204] - Quote
I haven't read everything, but I have to say delaying the information for just the residents of the WH would make it too hard to be safe.
Maybe have some type of scanner that take awhile to return, but scans only WH sigs. I know it's a bit taxing on the development of such a feature, but it would both delay the WH sigs from appearing as well as allowing proactive residents have some way to detection.
How these "special" scanners work, how they're fit, and things of that nature will still need to be determined.
I can't think of a negative of such scanners, maybe having the scanning ship be unable to move. Or not be able to fire weapons during the scan and shortly after using the device/probes/whatever is used to scann for WH sigs.
I currently live in a C4 with my corp and I know we make sure to be as safe as we can before we run sigs. While it is super easy to just watch the overlay for a new sig, I also agree that it makes it almost impossible to be ganked, even with the current "delay"(I believe that's what Odyssey introduced.)
I honestly don't think a simple delay with delay-reduction timers is a proper fix when dealing with information retrieval of two differing parties.
Feel free to bash. I'm not a professional game designer, just throwing an alternate idea someone may have suggested. |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
261
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:21:00 -
[205] - Quote
So, big boost to chain-rolling, which is fine. Makes site-running riskier. Combat probes and Dscan are now your only early warning, which is also basically fine, the primary difference from pre-odyssey is that you have to use combat probes instead of cores and have to manage ignoring friendlies as they log on and such...which strikes me as annoying but does require actual vigilance. For the extra trouble you might as well take it off the scan overlay but leave people who have the good sense to keep sigwatch with probes their tools.
The thing is that it ONLY really benefits people that chainroll for PvP. Like, that's a subset. A small subset. There's no way around that fact. It also only matters when you roll into people who are running sites or are otherwise outside of their POS shields, and again, no way around it. Either you end up making the delay so absurdly long that someone can form up a fleet or your prey can start doing stuff, which seems dumb, or it's short enough that you can only take advantage of it if you have your fleet on tap, which really benefits maybe two dozen organizations, tops?
I'm in one of those organizations so that doesn't really strike me as an issue (and we've had a lot of fun when people have dropped on us while we're running sites...), but it seems like a better change would be one that enhanced PvP opportunities more broadly and in a larger set of scenarios. What that change would be I don't know offhand, but i'm not a game designer.
Also has zippo impact on K-space unless you make it so we don't appear in local for a while either. If that gets packaged in, I'm totally on board. |
Tyrant Scorn
108
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:23:00 -
[206] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:I really think people need to open their eyes and consider that the way it is right is fair. When you're on the ball and you pay attention, nothing can catch you, that's how it should be. The same goes for the hunter, if you know what you're doing you will catch people who don't.
It doesn't get more fair then that. Giving any sort of delay to K162's is unfair because it gives any hunter a head start which they should not have. Ok I am going to explain it to you like I would to a five year old. CCP has stated time and time before that there should be NO SAFE or fair spot in EvE. Not even in high sec, there should be risk and reward everywhere. W-Space is at the top of that risk-reward pyramid, it should be very dangerous and very profitable. However, due to the CONSTANT skill point creep of the player base it got to the point that if you collapse all connections and drop probes then it becomes fairly safe. Understand? This happened before the automatic update for the overlay. When that came along it skewed the balance even further. The result of those two events is the reason why the sleeper loot has been dropping in market value. So in the end what you have is that w-space is neither the most risky nor is it extremely profitable. Thus this change was proposed. Its not meant to be right or fair, in fact its MEANT to be unfair. Just like the siphon units this change is MEANT to provide an advantage to the aggressor.
Don't use your condescending tone... You're only trying to make this point because you're the aggressor. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Joan Greywind
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
340
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:26:00 -
[207] - Quote
I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.
The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.
The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either. |
Geiri Tyr
The Suicide Express
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:27:00 -
[208] - Quote
So you want the first warning that someone has rolled into you to be a dread, carrier, and 20+ man T3 fleet on d scan? How about no. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:28:00 -
[209] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:
Don't use your condescending tone... You're only trying to make this point because you're the aggressor.
First, I will continue using the condescending tone to you since you have problems comprehending the basic design principles behind EvE. Second, there is nothing wrong with being the aggressor, thats what this game is about. |
Tyrant Scorn
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:31:00 -
[210] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:
Don't use your condescending tone... You're only trying to make this point because you're the aggressor.
First, I will continue using the condescending tone to you since you have problems comprehending the basic design principles behind EvE. Second, there is nothing wrong with being the aggressor, thats what this game is about.
Ohh wait, let me bow down to your lordship... You are right, we are wrong, you are all knowing, we have no right to speak our mind and take part in this discussion.
Everytime you disregard idea's and opinions from others in such a condescending tone, you are only proving you are single minded and short sighted. Good luck my lordship... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
|
John Dean
The Red Exhilez Corrosive.
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:32:00 -
[211] - Quote
Desimus Maximus wrote:I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.
W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.
If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.
If you want to fight go to low or nullsec you pussies. Or just live with the perfectly fine scanning mechanics as is. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.
^ This |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:32:00 -
[212] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.
The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.
The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.
Again, I will repeat it for the folks who have been living under a rock for the past few years. EvE is not meant to be safe, W-Space even more so. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:34:00 -
[213] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:
Don't use your condescending tone... You're only trying to make this point because you're the aggressor.
First, I will continue using the condescending tone to you since you have problems comprehending the basic design principles behind EvE. Second, there is nothing wrong with being the aggressor, thats what this game is about. Ohh wait, let me bow down to your lordship... You are right, we are wrong, you are all knowing, we have no right to speak our mind and take part in this discussion. Everytime you disregard idea's and opinions from others in such a condescending tone, you are only proving you are single minded and short sighted. Good luck my lordship...
Funny, because you dismissed my entire post just because I happen to be an agressor. Don't worry my little scrub peon, you are not alone in your hypocrisy,. |
Pseudo Ucksth
B0rthole
172
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:34:00 -
[214] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:What do you mean even more people moving out of wormholes? I was unaware of some mass exodus out of one of the most profitable parts of the game. And what do you mean by wormhole coalitions? How does this change even remotely promote coalitions? How would a coalition member not already in the same wormhole system respond to aid someone under attack in that system?
You have not been paying much attention, then. C6s are a ghost town now. Very few people live in them anymore when previously they were sort of regarded as the hard mode of wspace.
By wormhole coalitions I mean imagine a scenario where you're going to see more previously unalinged corps joining alliances, and alliances start to absorb smaller alliances. Staging wormholes will develop, moonlocked with deathstars, and day tripping will become the norm for constant income while others use alts with throwaway expo holes that they run until they get ganked or run the sites dry and extract the capitals to kspace for the next expo, leaving the towers behind.
It will become like nullsec without stargates. These huge wspace entities will rage roll with impunity until they come upon some unlucky small corp that doesn't want to play with the big boys and get ganked, turned into renters, or evicted, because that's simply the way of things.
This sort of thing has been happening to a small extent as wormholes have been ~iterated~ on over the years, but a change like this could accelerate it out of control to the point where it may never be able to be undone. See: lowsec incursion culture, which rose organically |
Wander Prian
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:35:00 -
[215] - Quote
I agree on delaying the K162 from showing on the overlay, but I don't like the idea of it being delayed for probes too. The primary idea for eve is that you have to work to get your prize. It's not supposed to fall into your lap from the sky. If you work actively towards something, you should have the benefits that come from it. If you use probes, you should see the new sig as soon as it spawns. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
421
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:36:00 -
[216] - Quote
This concept puts too much power to the aggressor. And honestly we are not talking about pvp, we're talking about ganking pve targets. It's not like this is going to cause more good fights, it's just going to cause more pure one sided ganks. Sorry ganks aren't pvp (there fun when your ganking and its a small gang and you get stuff, but hardly pvp once you surpass a certain amount of people and your going up against pve targets.
We need this to promote small gang fights, not random ganks from invisible undetectable wormholes. You have to get this to function more as a combat method for smaller groups and gangs. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Tyrant Scorn
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:38:00 -
[217] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Funny, because you dismissed my entire post just because I happen to be an agressor. Don't worry my little scrub peon, you are not alone in your hypocrisy,.
Your condescending tone made me dismiss everything you said... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:42:00 -
[218] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:This concept puts too much power to the aggressor. And honestly we are not talking about pvp, we're talking about ganking pve targets. It's not like this is going to cause more good fights, it's just going to cause more pure one sided ganks. Sorry ganks aren't pvp (there fun when your ganking and its a small gang and you get stuff, but hardly pvp once you surpass a certain amount of people and your going up against pve targets.
We need this to promote small gang fights, not random ganks from invisible undetectable wormholes. You have to get this to function more as a combat method for smaller groups and gangs.
This isn't about GOOD ******* FIGHTS, this is about risk reward! |
Rater Chanlin
End-of-Line
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:43:00 -
[219] - Quote
Two step wrote:Also, there seem to be a lot of people who think even the largest groups can just form up a blob in less than 5 minutes. If you aren't already rolling holes with the intent to gank site runners, it takes time to get folks formed up. It takes time to identify which anomoly or signature people are at. All this change would do is at a minimum (if the discovery scanner was delayed) require people to put in a small amount of effort (mash scan button) to detect incoming K162s. If you want to make the big bucks, you need to be at big risk, and that simply isn't true right now in C5 space and most of C6 space.
It doesn't take that long. In an active hole you will probably have less than five anomalies(a couple probably being ore sites) and less than five sigs. More than likely people running escalations are already scrammed so they are going to need to kill NPCs before they have a chance to get off field. I am using escalations as the example because it seems to be what everyone is using.
One problem I see is signatures showing up when warp is initiated, it makes no sense logically. I believe the signature needs to become scannable when someone jumps through. You should also need to probe the signatures instead of seeing them automatically pop up. Also wouldn't mind seeing ore sites going back to signatures also. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
641
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:44:00 -
[220] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Funny, because you dismissed my entire post just because I happen to be an agressor. Don't worry my little scrub peon, you are not alone in your hypocrisy,. Your condescending tone made me dismiss everything you said...
Oh woe is me, a useless scrublord who never stepped foot in w-space is dismissive of my ideas. How shall I ever go on? |
|
Tyrant Scorn
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:46:00 -
[221] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Funny, because you dismissed my entire post just because I happen to be an agressor. Don't worry my little scrub peon, you are not alone in your hypocrisy,. Your condescending tone made me dismiss everything you said... Oh woe is me, a useless scrublord who never stepped foot in w-space is dismissive of my ideas. How shall I ever go on?
Whahaha... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Joan Greywind
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
340
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:49:00 -
[222] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.
The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.
The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either. Again, I will repeat it for the folks who have been living under a rock for the past few years. EvE is not meant to be safe, W-Space even more so.
Yes nice deduction from what I have said, apparently if my view is a little different from yours then I must have "been living under a rock".
If you have any good reading comprehension I clearly stated that it is too safe now, but making impossible to see the gank coming is a too easy for the gankers and not too good of game mechanics in my opinion. What I was saying make the relative safety (not total as you can still get ganked) come at a price of your loot. You want to run, fine but you will lose part of your loot.
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
59
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:53:00 -
[223] - Quote
An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out. |
Joan Greywind
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
340
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:55:00 -
[224] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out.
Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay.
Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2078
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:55:00 -
[225] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:I really liked the idea that was proposed earlier in the thread of some other form of ESS being employed in WH space.
The idea is to pay for the "safety" you are awarded now. You either can choose to have 80% of blue loot payout while 20% of it deposited to have the benefit of instant pop ups of k162, where you need 30 mins (or some amount of time to reloot that 20%), or have 100% of the payout with a delay to all k162 signatures. The numbers are arbitrary.
The way it is not ("free intel") is too safe and removes the element of ambiguity of wh space, but the old ways of mashing scan is also not very "engaging" and "active" gameplay, the same way the miner mashing f1 isn't very engaging or active either.
I said it earlier in the thread, but make blue loot bounties first and MAYBE we can talk.
Until the isk generation in WH space is so fundamentally different from the rest of EVE that the concept of an ESS is BS. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
60
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 03:58:00 -
[226] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out. Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented. Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out.
In order to make any kind of ESS style module work you'd either have to put blue loot into it directly, which would basically make it a fueled module which could be implemented in a totally different way, or you'd have to make wormholes pay out exactly like any other site, which makes zero sense with the way that wormholes work - who's going to be paying you for shooting sleepers? More to the point, it's removing the logistical challenges that are deliberately there to make living in wormholes less comfortable. |
Joan Greywind
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
340
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:05:00 -
[227] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out. Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented. Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out. In order to make any kind of ESS style module work you'd either have to put blue loot into it directly, which would basically make it a fueled module which could be implemented in a totally different way, or you'd have to make wormholes pay out exactly like any other site, which makes zero sense with the way that wormholes work - who's going to be paying you for shooting sleepers? More to the point, it's removing the logistical challenges that are deliberately there to make living in wormholes less comfortable.
The empires have decided that the sleepers can be a significant threat to the empires and they have many technologies to offer, and would like to start studying the effects of the sleepers in the wh themselves, so if you put the blueprints for them to study in a module they offer you in wh space, they will give you the ability to scan k162's immediately. Took me 2 minutes to solve the "lore" problem for you mr rper, I am sure many more capable people could do a better job.
As I said, as a subscriber it is not my job to offer programming solutions to the devs. All I do is offer my opinion of what I want from a gameplay perspective and it is their role to come with the programming solutions. We first have to agree what is best from a gameplay point of view and then come up with the programming solutions required to implement such a change. |
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:06:00 -
[228] - Quote
There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet rolling. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
60
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:09:00 -
[229] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.
Yeap. With these changes you wouldn't even have the risk of someone dropping onto you while you were rolling the hole away, because they couldn't scan it out before you had your jumps done. |
Michael1995
Lazerhawks
103
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:10:00 -
[230] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact.
On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find).
A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.
If anything were to change, this should be it. One does not simply buy their way into Goonswarm. |
|
Je'rin
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:12:00 -
[231] - Quote
It seems like the overlay is the problem. Why not either take it out or have it be a special function of covops ships or probe launcher modules. |
Unholey
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:18:00 -
[232] - Quote
Well I just don't like this idea at all. Delay signatures appearing on the sensor overlay ok, but not being able to scan it with probes as it spawns is ridiculous. You Can't Fly In Here |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:18:00 -
[233] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote: Just a note: Moving blue loot is not in any way a "logistical challenge", would like it to be, but sadly isn't. At best it is a minor inconvenience.
You must not have had much experience trying to move things along the ever-changing routes from W-space to highsec. Unless you have a WH directly to highsec (And no active wardecs), odds are you'll be going through several WH's, many jumps through Lowsec, and sometimes even more jumps through hostile nullsec if you've gone long enough without a decent WH and are running low on both ISK and Fuel. One of my more recent routes was through 2 C6's then a C3 and then middle of nowhere highsec. Had to give up and run home because one of the WH's became highly active. Yes, sometimes moving blue loot is as simple as you think it always is, but that is actually a fairly rare occurence for those of us who live without k-space statics. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2083
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:19:00 -
[234] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:Just a note: Moving blue loot is not in any way a "logistical challenge", would like it to be, but sadly isn't. At best it is a minor inconvenience.
So says you. Bottom line Blue loot is of no value until you can get it sold, which can only be done in k-space. And compared to the push button receive isk nature of bounties, it can be a "challenge".
In that vein, maybe all bounties should become a loot certificate that have to be scooped from the cargohold of ships. I would love to hear the collective cries of 0.0 space for this "minor inconvenience". Or that of LS and HS for that matter.
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
61
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:23:00 -
[235] - Quote
SambaSol wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:An ESS style module doesn't fit with wormholes in terms of the lore, and doesn't fit at all with how wormhole sites pay out. Because we all know in EVE, lore comes before balanced gameplay, and I am sure with a little creativity this issue can be circumvented. Figuring out the programming aspects is not an issue I like to delve into, all I do is offer my opinion on the gameplay aspects of things, the rest is left of the devs to figure out. In order to make any kind of ESS style module work you'd either have to put blue loot into it directly, which would basically make it a fueled module which could be implemented in a totally different way, or you'd have to make wormholes pay out exactly like any other site, which makes zero sense with the way that wormholes work - who's going to be paying you for shooting sleepers? More to the point, it's removing the logistical challenges that are deliberately there to make living in wormholes less comfortable. The empires have decided that the sleepers can be a significant threat to the empires and they have many technologies to offer, and would like to start studying the effects of the sleepers in the wh themselves, so if you put the blueprints for them to study in a module they offer you in wh space, they will give you the ability to scan k162's immediately. Took me 2 minutes to solve the "lore" problem for you mr rper, I am sure many more capable people could do a better job. As I said, as a subscriber it is not my job to offer programming solutions to the devs. All I do is offer my opinion of what I want from a gameplay perspective and it is their role to come with the programming solutions. We first have to agree what is best from a gameplay point of view and then come up with the programming solutions required to implement such a change. Just a note: Moving blue loot is not in any way a "logistical challenge", would like it to be, but sadly isn't. At best it is a minor inconvenience. You must not have had much experience trying to move things along the ever-changing routes from W-space to highsec. Unless you have a WH directly to highsec (And no active wardecs), odds are you'll be going through several WH's, many jumps through Lowsec, and sometimes even more jumps through hostile nullsec if you've gone long enough without a decent WH and are running low on both ISK and Fuel. One of my more recent routes was through 2 C6's then a C3 and then middle of nowhere highsec. Had to give up and run home because one of the WH's became highly active. Yes, sometimes moving blue loot is as simple as you think it always is, but that is actually a fairly rare occurence for those of us who live without k-space statics.
And then there's the time when you get out fine and somebody rolls a hole half way down the chain and leaves your hauler stuck out. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:31:00 -
[236] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:BayneNothos wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:I really think people need to open their eyes and consider that the way it is right is fair. When you're on the ball and you pay attention, nothing can catch you, that's how it should be. The same goes for the hunter, if you know what you're doing you will catch people who don't.
It doesn't get more fair then that. Giving any sort of delay to K162's is unfair because it gives any hunter a head start which they should not have. But the defender already has an advantage in the sig showing up when warp is initiated. They have how long it takes me to align, warp, land, power to the wh, jump, load system and dscan to warp away. If you want fair, then don't show the K162 until someone jumps the WH, or failing that due to a technical issue or some such, add a delay to when it's shown K162 side that's vaguely based off an average of how long all of what I listed above takes, kind of like whats being proposed by CCP Fozzie... It doesn't take you multiple minutes to get to the wormhole unless you're in the habit of probing down your static with a capital. I do think that a good compromise would be holding off on the K162 until someone jumped, along with the removal of the new scanning system, forcing use of actual scan probes and paying attention.
Ugh lost post here's the tldr
Yah scan phoenix ftw. Any subcap can warp out in that time. At least 5s to do a jump alone
Cap balance is you stay still for extra dps an super reps |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:36:00 -
[237] - Quote
Completely removing the K162 spawn until someone has transited would be going a little too far, odds are 90% of incoming WH's from k-space would go unactivated. Solution: yet ANOTHER timer. How many timers are we suggesting adding to wormholes now? |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
63
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:45:00 -
[238] - Quote
SambaSol wrote:Completely removing the K162 spawn until someone has transited would be going a little too far, odds are 90% of incoming WH's from k-space would go unactivated. Solution: yet ANOTHER timer. How many timers are we suggesting adding to wormholes now?
That is kind of true, it would lead to less people activating wormholes because they could warp to it and see what type of space it leads to without jumping.
Of course, you could make it that warping will trigger a timer, which jumping would skip completely, causing the K162 to pop up immediately. That would provide a decent compromise I guess. |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:50:00 -
[239] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:SambaSol wrote:Completely removing the K162 spawn until someone has transited would be going a little too far, odds are 90% of incoming WH's from k-space would go unactivated. Solution: yet ANOTHER timer. How many timers are we suggesting adding to wormholes now? That is kind of true, it would lead to less people activating wormholes because they could warp to it and see what type of space it leads to without jumping. Of course, you could make it that warping will trigger a timer, which jumping would skip completely, causing the K162 to pop up immediately. That would provide a decent compromise I guess.
Indeed, although this would actually be so minor a change from the current mechanics that I'm not sure it would make any noticeable difference in gameplay. Perhaps combine this with my earlier idea?
Warp to WH, 5 minute timer to K162 spawning begins Transit WH, timer is reduced to 2 minutes or current timer, whichever is less Ship appears decloaked on far side of WH, cloaking disabled for 15ish seconds, still no K162 signature Ship cloaks, Sig still not scannable Ship warps off, more ships transit, or timer expires: K162 signature appears for all to see.
I'm not certain this would be a feasable solution from a programming standpoint, but from a gameplay standpoint it seems liveable at least... I'd rather just see an intentional delay in the base scanner refresh rate, ore sites returned to grav sites, and probes being a necessary part of life again. |
The Fong
Recreational Vehicle Enthusiasts Club - WH Chapter Corrosive.
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:50:00 -
[240] - Quote
Thank you for tackling this Fozzie. It's an important issue, I'm glad I caught this thread as soon as it showed up on my overview.
Has the discussion at the dev/CSM level involved ore sites post-Odyssey or has it been primarily concerned with K162s? Should ore sites on the overview be considered topical for purposes of this thread?
It may sound shallow, but as a soon to be cap pilot I need ore to build caps. In my mind, these two topics are connected.
I want candy, bubble gum, and taffy. Dreadnoughts, carriers, and Rorquals. Skip to the sweet shop with my sweetheart Sandy.
|
|
Bamsey Amraa
Unseen Nomads Exiled Ones
71
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:50:00 -
[241] - Quote
CCP broke WH with sensor overlay and now should just remove it instead broke it even more with signatures impossible to scan even if you pay attention and you see someone closing your damned bonus wh.... You want make all (i mean ALL if you know what about im think) WH ppl happy just make delay in null local when we jump into from WH and make cyno in effect on end item cycle not in start and maybe just think about this : heron with cyno bringing carrier in , should ( charge ) that cyno after lit, bigger ship coming more time needed to charge cyno in smaller size cyno ship.... |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
442
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:51:00 -
[242] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:SambaSol wrote:Completely removing the K162 spawn until someone has transited would be going a little too far, odds are 90% of incoming WH's from k-space would go unactivated. Solution: yet ANOTHER timer. How many timers are we suggesting adding to wormholes now? That is kind of true, it would lead to less people activating wormholes because they could warp to it and see what type of space it leads to without jumping. Of course, you could make it that warping will trigger a timer, which jumping would skip completely, causing the K162 to pop up immediately. That would provide a decent compromise I guess.
Timers if you jump! Timers if you don't! More timers once you jump though! And variable timers depending on how many people jump!
TLDR: This is getting too ******* complicated in a hurry. |
Thead Enco
Killing is Business Get Off My Lawn
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:54:00 -
[243] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
Logic like this adding to the reasons why do i still logon to this game anymore.
-á"A Lannister always pays his debts."
-áTyrion Lannister |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
63
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 04:58:00 -
[244] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:SambaSol wrote:Completely removing the K162 spawn until someone has transited would be going a little too far, odds are 90% of incoming WH's from k-space would go unactivated. Solution: yet ANOTHER timer. How many timers are we suggesting adding to wormholes now? That is kind of true, it would lead to less people activating wormholes because they could warp to it and see what type of space it leads to without jumping. Of course, you could make it that warping will trigger a timer, which jumping would skip completely, causing the K162 to pop up immediately. That would provide a decent compromise I guess. Timers if you jump! Timers if you don't! More timers once you jump though! And variable timers depending on how many people jump! TLDR: This is getting too ******* complicated in a hurry.
You know there are problems with the basic idea when proposed fixes get that complex. |
Xer Jin
Ancient Anomaly and Artifacts Recovery Explorators
80
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 05:15:00 -
[245] - Quote
i told you this was a bad change when you brought it in in odyssey but you didn't listen ccp im going to tell you what i told you then ANY SITE THAT WAS "HIDDEN" BEFORE SHOULD SET BACK TO HIDDEN also PLEASE give me a way to turn of the sensor sweep overlay its sound is very annoying |
The Fong
Recreational Vehicle Enthusiasts Club - WH Chapter Corrosive.
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 05:42:00 -
[246] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:If you're mining in a wh you're doing it wrong.
Quoted for truth.
But it doesn't have to be this way.
Granted there will always be a few miners. Mostly players new to WH space with the occaisonal masocist writing his BOB-sacrficed retrievers off the books under the derecognized assets column.
|
Dominus Alterai
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
84
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 05:47:00 -
[247] - Quote
I feel that this is one of those changes that appear small from a development standpoint, but have far reaching effects for gameplay. That being said, as long as this. Change is implemented in a way that that doesn't break w-space, I'm all for it.
Two step wrote:Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time.
I do like the mass trigger idea. Perhaps begin to show when a certain percentage of the wormhole's mass is reached (~5-10%)? Of course this leads to dead wormholes when no one decides to jump through. So on top of the mass trigger, a time trigger will also be needed. Let's say 15 minutes, just as an example. Of course CCP can change and tweak the numbers depending on the type of wormhole on the other side. Illigitimate son of Korako "The Rabbit" Kosakami.
Ship miner/corpse collector extrordinaire. |
Stormbringer999s
Demonic. Dominatus Atrum Mortis
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 05:50:00 -
[248] - Quote
WhatGÇÖs the end game CCP Fozzie? Additional content for w-space? I think we would all agree that itGÇÖs desperately needed, but in this guise IGÇÖm afraid it falls a little short. IsnGÇÖt it going to be a little predictable, as in whatGÇÖs going to happen to w-space if and when these changes are implemented? Ganking opportunities become more prevalent, with the larger Alliances eventually dominating w-space, which will end up like Null, boring all bar the occasional blobfest. Whichever way you look at it, itGÇÖs hardly adding new content to the game. Maybe thatGÇÖs what you want, another Null Sec type environment? Either way youGÇÖre looking at a hard sell from IGÇÖve read thus far.
You made scanning easier to promote w-space activity, but in the end it provided little additional content. You changed or added various other game mechanics in recent patches, like ghost sites (damn straight their ghosts, never seen one myself), again with little to no effect in adding game content or increasing w-space occupancy.
Reverting back to previous models just induces boredom. Put your hands up if you actively sought out the scanning role. Yeah, thatGÇÖs what I thought. Point made.
I appreciate the fact that you are constantly looking at how Eve as a whole can be improved, but this forum post should give you an indication of where youGÇÖve been going wrong. If you want to create additional content for w-space you need to form a w-space group, CSM like, made up of the various Alliances heads to hash out ideas in an appropriate environment. This in my opinion is the only way youGÇÖll get any additional content into the game that works for all involved, will promote growth into the area and will maintain the original vibe of w-space, that it can be a dangerous place to be in at any given time.
On a personal note, I myself farm sites to enable my character to grow as needed. Sometimes the isk I generate is invested into PvE, other times PvP. My point is the isk I generate remains in w-space, albeit the raw materials etc need to make whatever it is I purchased off market, but the net result is the same, the isk remains in w-space. This is where I live, this is where I believe the isk should remain. All of the pilots I know in w-space are of similar minds. ThereGÇÖs a message in there somewhere, has no relevance to this discussion, but itGÇÖs there nonetheless : )
|
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's Infinite Anarchy
121
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:00:00 -
[249] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I do agree with the idea as it would mean more htfu in wspace. Wspace people can make a lot of isk and the space does not have local. It should be mysterious and unknown. I do understand people position to farm in peace but i do not understand your spirit of wspace.
So if anyone was wondering why nothing really got done in WH's in the last term of the CSM it was because poor James had to bring his inbred half cousin to the dance and let him speak.
Seriously Chitsa if this was an idea you advocated at CSM summits when it was passed by you then you have not listened to a word of your constituents in the last year.
But then we are talking about a guy who called a mini town hall meeting knowing it was his birthday and he was going to be ****-faced so no real surprises I guess.
AdW
|
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's Infinite Anarchy
121
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:05:00 -
[250] - Quote
To Two Step and others who think anyone farms virtually risk-free you're wrong. People who have 20-30 person ratting fleets plus 60+ available on pings rat virtually risk free ........... oh wait that would be you Two Step and you Chitsa and ........... whoa look at all the names who are for this and fit the criteria.
And get this damn thing off of the stickies. Nature lets cream float to the top and **** sink.
AdW
|
|
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1263
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:17:00 -
[251] - Quote
I just don't get why it wasn't returned to how it was before. It went from one end of the spectrum to the other. No trolling please |
Adarnof
Free Trade Monopoly
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:22:00 -
[252] - Quote
tl;dr The isk:risk ratio in lower holes is pretty bad as is, no need to make it worse.
While I concede the immediate notification of a new signature via the discovery scanner makes farming a bit too safe, I feel this proposed system leans too heavily towards ganking. If someone is not paying attention they deserve to die, what this delay system would change is that no matter how much effort you put in to staying "safe", someone will catch you. Even now I hear about farmers getting jumped so apparently it is still possible with the instant notification, delaying that on the order of minutes puts far too much power in the hands of the aggressors.
Couple this with the recent deflation in ribbon prices and I'd be surprised if people chose low-class holes over incursions or missions. If it's possible to pull upwards of 100M/hr in highsec with minimal risk, aside from the whole "your own corner of space" aspect there'd be little incentive to keep smaller groups in w-space and out of mission hubs. I think we can all agree that more people in wormholes makes for a better experience, without farmers to gank I know a few people who'd get mighty bored.
If you have a flight of probes out, you should be able to immediately scan every signature. Groups willing to take this extra step should be rewarded, survival of the fittest and all. I'm sure people would come up with ways to adapt, but I feel this change is more detrimental to content than creating any.
And I'm still bitter about ore anomalies. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:25:00 -
[253] - Quote
Stormbringer999s wrote:WhatGÇÖs the end game CCP Fozzie? Additional content for w-space? I think we would all agree that itGÇÖs desperately needed, but in this guise IGÇÖm afraid it falls a little short. IsnGÇÖt it going to be a little predictable, as in whatGÇÖs going to happen to w-space if and when these changes are implemented? Ganking opportunities become more prevalent, with the larger Alliances eventually dominating w-space, which will end up like Null, boring all bar the occasional blobfest. Whichever way you look at it, itGÇÖs hardly adding new content to the game. Maybe thatGÇÖs what you want, another Null Sec type environment? Either way youGÇÖre looking at a hard sell from IGÇÖve read thus far.
You made scanning easier to promote w-space activity, but in the end it provided little additional content. You changed or added various other game mechanics in recent patches, like ghost sites (damn straight their ghosts, never seen one myself), again with little to no effect in adding game content or increasing w-space occupancy.
Reverting back to previous models just induces boredom. Put your hands up if you actively sought out the scanning role. Yeah, thatGÇÖs what I thought. Point made.
I appreciate the fact that you are constantly looking at how Eve as a whole can be improved, but this forum post should give you an indication of where youGÇÖve been going wrong. If you want to create additional content for w-space you need to form a w-space group, CSM like, made up of the various Alliances heads to hash out ideas in an appropriate environment. This in my opinion is the only way youGÇÖll get any additional content into the game that works for all involved, will promote growth into the area and will maintain the original vibe of w-space, that it can be a dangerous place to be in at any given time.
On a personal note, I myself farm sites to enable my character to grow as needed. Sometimes the isk I generate is invested into PvE, other times PvP. My point is the isk I generate remains in w-space, albeit the raw materials etc need to make whatever it is I purchased off market, but the net result is the same, the isk remains in w-space. This is where I live, this is where I believe the isk should remain. All of the pilots I know in w-space are of similar minds. ThereGÇÖs a message in there somewhere, has no relevance to this discussion, but itGÇÖs there nonetheless : )
*Hand up* It's actually the thing I miss most about older W-Space. The thrill of having to drop probes somewhere hidden, sometimes when there is nowhere. Having to dscan the rough angle and distance and get your probe group there for that single pass 100%
this won't end up a buff to larger groups unless the timer is something crazy like 10 minutes. The bigger the group the longer it takes to get orgainsed. What this boosts is the small and solo gangs and even then it's only a head start. It takes time, longer than most people think to track someone down and get in position. It means those out there who are truely adept at the scouting arts get rewarded for being good.
We already have a group, it's called the CSM and there are 2 current WH members on it. Go vote in CSM9 for the WH guy who you agree with or run yourself if you don't agree with any of them. If enough people agree with your position you'll get in. |
Armakoir
Sessrumnir's Chosen The AirShip Pirates
14
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:29:00 -
[254] - Quote
Ziirn wrote:... decrease time spent in POS or cloaked [and increase PVP interaction]. This is the problem and goal.
The proposed idea is not the solution.
That being said, I support delaying K162s spawning on the probe scanner, but I do not support the inability of proactive players to defend themselves. |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:32:00 -
[255] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
That is kind of true, it would lead to less people activating wormholes because they could warp to it and see what type of space it leads to without jumping.
Yes - so far fewer incomings to higher class wormholes get spawned - especially when people are scanning down a chain. I also bet that very few N432s ever get opened. |
Borlag Crendraven
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
471
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:32:00 -
[256] - Quote
If you wish to introduce more risk, it has to go both ways and actively monitoring your home hole must be rewarded with at least the chance of catching what is coming. Removing that chance only makes things worse for both the lower class residents and it wouldn't necessarily make it better for the would be gankers either, after all you're not rewarding them based on risk vs. reward, but rather removing the part of risk in the form of jumping into too much they could take. Have that happen? Safely close the hole before the residents even see a chance of driving the invaders out. Thus no risk of pvp, reward of gank.
The obvious risk increasing option for both sides is making statics appear on both sides before activation and forcing you to use probes for all signatures outside anomalies, as it used to be. Wish to still keep this easy mode for hisec? Do this for wormhole space only. Want to introduce more risk and more chances of content beyond that? Introduce second statics, either similarly to how they are now handled, or via my previous suggestion of having that static be random from a set pool of options as in the c5/6 "big leaguers" would get a static that varies between c5/6 each time it spawns (ie not always to either c5 or c6 but for both), lower class holes without already existing dual statics would get a static to c1-4, ones that have it need no change. Known space holes should be excluded from the pool of options for that static in order to not make logistics side any easier than it already is. |
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
141
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:42:00 -
[257] - Quote
I would welcome a delay (or no appearance at all) on the scanner, but I wouldnt change the visibility with probes.
An all around delay would probably kill rage rolling fleets, and if someone puts the effort in pressing that scan button every 30 sec, well then he should be rewarded by seeing all sigs. |
Shade Millith
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:44:00 -
[258] - Quote
I got out of the W-Space game a while back, but occasionally likes to dive for PVP, so I'm pretty nuetral as far as bias goes. My thoughts are that this is a dumb idea.
Does anyone really think that PVE in W-space needs a higher risk?
Delay for the Sensor Overlay is fine. But do not put the delay for probes.
Already you've messed W-Space mining up by making it an anom, don't screw the rest of it up. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Panhandle Industries
318
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:47:00 -
[259] - Quote
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:Something has to be done. But just when miners were getting excited about the possibilities of wh mining again based on compression arrays, now they will flee because their ore is all in anoms. I love ganking me some miners, but it hardly seems fair to leave them as sitting ducks for 2 minutes. They might as well warp to anom and set the self destruct timer. I really hope any delay is no more than 30 seconds to a minute from when someone first jumps through the new hole. That is all the time needed to begin the scanning process. Unfortunately miners are particularly vulnerable do to the lack of scanning necessary for their sites. I recommend changing all in wormhole anomalies to signatures to provide at least a small level of security. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
96
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 06:54:00 -
[260] - Quote
It was balanced before the oddesy changes. The sig didn't jump into you overview automaticly you needed to scan or wait untill it appeared. That made it possible to miss it, wich made it possible to catch someone off guard. Now the first thing people do when seeing a new sig is instantly warp to safety. Wich means less encounters between players. Intel shouldn't come free instantly, you should have to work for it. So show up the new sig after a few minutes. If people have probes out , then the probes should get it with the scans. That way people need to do a effort. Scanning defensivly should be as rewarding as scanning offensivly. But both should take some effort. Now it is to safe. If people are doing sites without capitals there are out of the site instantly when a sig spawns. With capitals it takes 5 minutes max . So safe site running for everybody .
|
|
Akseli Jari
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 07:00:00 -
[261] - Quote
I'll put something forward that isn't a Yes / No answer in regards to CCP Fozzie's proposal.
As stated the fact that an on the ball corp running escalations / soloing or running a site with a partner, cannot do anything to detect if they are about to get made dead by others. That seems to be the main issue raised with this proposal, i'm of the mind that it sounds pretty fun, I could get more ganks but those that run escalations are at a much higher risk.
I like the new discovery overlay / new d-scan / quality of life with having new sigs pop up, its more of what you'd expect in the eve universe when we're all flying around super advanced ships.
If this change to delay the signatures from appearing both on the overlay and by probe scanner is implemented then there needs to be a way to offset it as well. I'd take this as an opportunity to look at what this could do for the economy with a new module or deployable / pos module.
Here are some suggestions, and i'd certainly like to hear some others that could offset the available information disparity to those that wish to know exactly when they are being rolled into.
- Pos module that displays information as it happens to all inside the wormhole.
- This module would consume some sort of fuel at a very high rate, perhaps w-space items / stront (I list stront as its hard to transport into w-space in large quantities, not because its cheap)
- This module could only provide general information if it made it available to everyone in the system
- Deployable that offers information to a corp or individual that deployed it when signatures spawn immediately.
- This should be expensive and could be offered in flavours for groups of wormhole classes with an increasing cost
- It could be manufactured using W-Space loot, helping the crashing W-Space economy (my nano ribbon prices D:)
- This would not be scoop-able
- This would decay rapidly and appear as a warp-in on the overview such, easily destroyed.
- This module has the potential to have flexibility in terms of what CCP could let it do if only transmitting information to the one that deployed it (ships that jump in / random messages from wormhole gods / chance of a WH appearing / chance of a new sig appearing updated at intervals / how likely the Joves are to visit your system soon)
- Go back to the old way of doing things
- Personally feel like this is going backwards when CCP did a lot of work to get us here, I like new content not reverting back to outdated methods, though they did work.
- Delays implemented on signature overlay only.
- It will catch those who aren't paying to much attention out, and in some cases result in new cap kills.
- One change suggestion is to reduce the amount of rats that scram / point to allow for higher chances of getting your ships out if you do the sites properly, though you'll only have a few ticks notice.
CCP Fozzie has indicated that there is a chance to change up and rework a mechanic in W-Space, i'm all for supporting the Devs when they have displayed an interest in our part of eve, not alienating the idea and telling them to F-Off. The danger there is that Devs may just give up and we wont get anything.
I'd like to see this change go live, but also acknowledge that if it does go forward that there will be tweaks required to alleviate the one-sidedness that an aggressor would have over people who actually are paying attention and doing there best to be diligent.
If you have something constructive to add or change please shout it out, but have more then "horrible idea, nuff said"
Jari
I'm aware my gamma and spering is horid. |
jangofett76
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 07:03:00 -
[262] - Quote
Omygod, CCP have shares in Blood Union
Quote:Does anyone really think that PVE in W-space needs a higher risk?
+1
When dreads are in anomaly in siege you have a good chance to die before you can : 1 : Be out of siege 2 : Stop be pointed by npc 3 : Send your Warp
Maybe upgrades in wh could be good to have more exit to 0.0 for example <3 (no c5 static 0.0 ) |
Daphnea Eystur
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 07:09:00 -
[263] - Quote
Just dropping my 2 isk in here as a current wormhole resident.
Currently when a new K162 spawns when we are running sites in our static we have time to ship out of our blingy pve ships into a pvp fleet, get a scout in place to see who we are up against and make an informed decision about wither to fight or run and hide like the cowards we secretly are.
This means that all some of the larger and scarier WH corps have seen of us of late is the back end of an Orca as we roll our C5 static before they have time to find where we came from. Smaller and less scary corps find us ready with fast tackle.
What these change mean for us is that we'll have to be more circumspect. We'll get jumped more often. We'll lose more ships. We'll find it harder to get out of the way of fights we don't want to take. On the other hand we'll be able to be the aggressor more often as well and do to others as others would do unto us. There's plenty of smaller /similar sized fish than us which we don;t get to chew on because they are as awake as we are.
We'll get more fights. We'll lose more ships. We'll have to be more active to pay for replacements, and spend longer in each anom. because we'll be fitting our ships to better survive a hot drop we can no longer see coming in time to clear off and re-ship.
That said the actual delay needs to be tuned very carefully and you should not underestimate how fast a dedicated scanner can get the drop on someone.
Also see the post upthread about a local delay in nullsec. If I can;t see immediately when someone's come into my home through a K162, nor should our friends the other side of our nullsec static.
As for miners, well if you take a look at our killboard and see how many times a Venture got the initial tackle, there's tactics out there that can turn the fact mining sites are so easy to find into an opportunity. Bait procurers anyone? |
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
45
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 07:25:00 -
[264] - Quote
Sorry, i like the way how W-space worked. Then the "overlay" hits the fan with **** for us (what noone wants in w-space). Now a delay on probe-scans?
This is a terrible idea, because it strenghten the big corps/allys. There is no more PVP, it leads to more ganks, much more ganks. Low class WH (1-4) normal inhabited by small corps, are the sacrifice. Small corps that are not as big, go to low w-space, they are often real life friends, that you can trust - most of us don't want strangers in their corp. When you ask why? It's the rights allocating that is still ****, how a about a rework for POS and corp-roles?
If you want "blueballing" and blobs, go annoy the nullsec guys. Ask them if it's cool to have no local + probe scan delayed. Ask how many will quit living there. It's now easy to enter a wh and log out, wait on an alt to see my gankbros (yay evewho) are on and log in on a save spot that they dont see on d-scan. You want to make it much more easier? If someone don't like the way it is now, i think he should go to k-space and fight with nullsec guys.
My suggestion:
1.) Go back! All sigs and all stuff in space should be scanned down, to warp there, one exception is the sun, no others. 2.) Don't punish guys, who playing active, probes out and hit the scan button. 3.) Balance nullsec and stay out of w-space balancing,if you don't live there
|
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
368
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 07:33:00 -
[265] - Quote
Very bad idea. WH space already have very limited number of people living there. There is no point of reducing it more.
I feel that CCP want more players in higsec
I don't live in WH space.
Why you just not boost WH space? Put more content there by allowing WH maintaining for longer periods. Sleeper farming is boring as hell. * |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
20
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 07:35:00 -
[266] - Quote
So this is how you get the faceless masses (and their npc alts) to post here, make a blue post. Guess they are not affraid of getting ganked by CCP
Let-¦s have a quick look at the state sigspawning is now:
Group A rolls its hole, scans new sig down and initiates warp. At this moment it apears in group B-¦s system and on everybods overlay. No matter what ship you are in, no probes or clicks needed, no matter if cloaked, possed up or scrammed and neuted by sleepers. Scanner from group A lands at range at the new hole, bookmarks it, puts it in the correct corpfolder, burns to the hole and let-¦s at least one of his buddies fleetwarp to him because corpbookmarks take time. Then he jumps through and loads grid. By that time anyone has already Possed up and is scanning for the new sig. A competent scanner is already in warp and will see scanner A decloak while he is making his own bookmark.
The proposed system will lead to scanner jumping in and eigher have a fleet landing on your ratters before you can even see the sig or, if there is too much opposition on the other side, allow for 100% safe rolling. No way to get better or more fights from this. Even funnier with k162s into k-space. You will be in local before your grid is loaded and you will be 2 systems out before the sig shows up.
Also people will just be combatprobing like crazy for new sigs/ships then. While I-¦m all for dead ratters this is not a good aproach.
Just making the sig show up after loading grid or decloaking would be a good way to cut down the warningtime by a lot. Also, I remember posts about not bringing all the k-spacetimers into here, you want to create our own artificial timers now?
If you want more dead escalationrunners just set the T2 siegetimer to 10 minutes too, that will work wonders.
mynnna wrote: Instead, leave the overlay as is, but remove the ability to loot and salvage sleeper wrecks. In its place create a new structure that does it for you but has a relatively lengthy access time, say five minutes or so, long enough that if someone does come through that newly spawned hole, they'll find ya. Then you do have the choice to flee, but doing so means losing what you've made farming.
In essence I'm proposing a wormhole version of the ESS, except because I always hear wormholers telling me how much more hardcore than anyone else they are, it's mandatory, keeps 100% of earnings in it, and doesn't actually confer any additional bonus.
So you are talking about a noctis, right? I-¦m pretty sure that is how it is already. And since you mention the ESS, how hard are you pushing to fix that thing not sitting in fully triggered anoms? So it has actually a use besides boosting rattingincome?
Quote for the funniest post on the forums for a while:
Desimus Maximus wrote:I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.
W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.
If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.
If you want to fight go to low or nullsec you pussies. Or just live with the perfectly fine scanning mechanics as is. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.
|
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 07:49:00 -
[267] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote: I don't live in WH space.
Sleeper farming is boring as hell.
Thank you for your invaluable contribution to this topic, i was originally in favor of a change along the lines suggested but your argument has persuaded me that it is indeed very bad idea. |
The Fong
Recreational Vehicle Enthusiasts Club - WH Chapter Corrosive.
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:01:00 -
[268] - Quote
DoToo Foo wrote:Allowing a mobile scan inhibitor to hide a sig would even be acceptable.
This is an idea that merits further exploration. What I'm hearing from larger WH entities is they want fights to result from rolling hole and they like the suprises of unknown space. Regular C5/6 connections are not providing that at the moment because quick scouting by both parties and information symmetry leads to stand downs. Home team cap superiority contributes to some extent also.
Imagine this for a moment: a new deployable you anchor in your home system which lasts for 6 hours and prevents any OUTGOING connections from registering a K162 in their target system for, say, 3-15 minutes. However, any ship that passes through has its dscan disabled for that period as well as sig scanning for ALL ships in the target system.
For the timer haters out there, this is one timer.
You could imagine the C5/6 v. C5/6 standoff looking something like this: The attacking side's covops or multiple covops would enter a newly rolled static and have their dscan inhibited. They have the option of either launching combat probes or scouting out anomalies and POS's silently/manually while the dscan inhibition clock counts down. If the attacking fleet attacks a target(s) of opportunity, some degree of information superiority is now granted to the defenders who are not dscan inhibited. The home team defenders can choose to fleet up and take a fight or burn their existing fleet back through the chain home without a head count from the attackers (due to the signature scanning disability in system). Fights are more likely to happen somewhere in system rather than on a WH connection; which is a nice change of scenery after years of T3 fleet/capital standoffs occurring on a WH.
Things I haven't thought through: - How or whether this applies to lower class wormholes. - How the sig scanning disability would be implemented and how the penalty would be obscured from pilots in the target system.
Take information assymetry from the attackers, and apply it to both sides and C5/6 combat will burn bright. Reward the bold and the risk takers :) |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
21
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:04:00 -
[269] - Quote
Hey! Let's make wh-space all about ganking expos and miners - as if much content didn't revolve around pve/ganking already.
More seriously though: I appreciate that CCP seems to be taking an interest in our space (thank you) and is tackling a real issue. As a compromise, I like Arkon's idea about having K162s appear as soon as somebody jumped it - or just going back to the pre-odyssey system. |
Loan--Wolf
Sub Par. Beacon Light Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:07:00 -
[270] - Quote
Fozzy here is my thought instead of ******* people in whs even more lets **** with k space and make a becon that jams local in null
yes i like this idea lets jam null local and scram warpgates so they dont take you where you want to go i like this
worm holes are fine how they are lets fix null to much isk not enouff reward there |
|
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1266
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:08:00 -
[271] - Quote
Desimus Maximus wrote:I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.
W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.
If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.
If you want to fight go to low or nullsec you pussies. Or just live with the perfectly fine scanning mechanics as is. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.
lol! 4/10 No trolling please |
Viscis Breeze
Esoteric Madcats
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:11:00 -
[272] - Quote
I feel this has gone from one extreme to the other. Eve is best when encouraging players to be actively engaged, with the old system of using probes there was a reasonably fair balance on both sides. Players could choose to actively have probes out scanning for wormholes and from personal experience lots did not bother. Remove the "passive" signature popup, return to the active - scanning for new signatures. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:25:00 -
[273] - Quote
While I am happy that CCP is recognizing the problems that the new scanning changes are causing a lot less PvP I must point out that there are some big problems with the time delay solution. Let me be a bit long-winded:
Before the changes you had to actively look for holes. This meant that lots of people did run sites unsafe, not bothering or having the means og having scanning alts with probes out continuously looking for new sigs. On the plus side they wher pretty safe if as long as they where not running an anomaly.
After the changes anyone in his right mind where pretty safe, in sigs and anomalies. Just keep looking for the new sigs and POS up when you see one. For miners this somewhat made up for the mining sites being removed from anomalies to sigs. Personally I find it way to easy to find miners now, unless they do pay attention and ou find them in a POS. They are after all very vulnerable and having to probe them down as in the old days was very exciting and rewarding - when you managed to do it without them noticing.
In the future: I foresee real problems with the implementation of hiding new sigs altogether. Especially for miners and entry level PvE runners. The awesome balance of the OLD system was that you could be safe, but you had to have the skills (deep space probes for large solar systems to name one) and you had to divert assets to scan. The current system feels to safe, and delaying the sigs showing up EVEN TO PROBES seems unsafe. Especially for miners as they will have no way of warning what so ever.
My advice: Bite the bullet. The balance was perfect before. It might be a fluke that it was, but it still was. Just make the sigs not show up AT ALL in the scanner unless you probe them. Re-introduce Deep Space Probes (for those huge solar systems) and move mining sites back to being sigs. Make up any excse you want when the LoreMasters question how this can be. Perhaps the same things that provide Local do provide the sigs showing up? |
Ssieth
Tenebras Exteriores Dominatus Atrum Mortis
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:42:00 -
[274] - Quote
Can I propose a simple test before bringing ideas to the table (and facing the inevitable screams from the forum)?
Ask yourself:
1. Will this change increase risk for a group of players? 2. Can that risk be entirely mitigated by some tedious process?
If the answer to both 1 and 2 is yes then assume that the change is just introducing a new source of tedium for said group of players and will have little other effect on the game.
This proposal clearly ticks the above boxes. |
Rena Senn
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
87
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:55:00 -
[275] - Quote
This is a bad change for smaller groups in w-space that will push fights even more towards the numbers game that they already are. As it now stands, defending groups can use the fast intel to pull their PvE fleet and swap to combat ships and force multipliers to defend their hole, or offer terms of x vs x arranged fights in the case that they are severely outnumbered. They can also blueball, but that's always done under the threat of evictions for gaining a reputation in denying fights.
Changing the sig appearance delay instead limits the defenders to a two second window to catch incoming hostiles on d-scan if they are in range, or leave the PvE group all but defenseless if they're not. This will mean the only reasonably way to defend one's space from an inbound gang will be having many more PvP ready pilots on standby, since a locked down or podded PvE pilot is incapable of mounting an effective defense regardless of their desire for PvP. This gives a disproportionate and unnecessary advantage to larger groups, who will remain just as capable of defending their home holes while now being able to ambush less populated holes with impunity.
I'd rather CCP didn't turn wormholes into another area where nullsec style blobfests become mandatory for success. |
Shpongleye
Hard Knocks Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 08:59:00 -
[276] - Quote
@ CCP Fozzie
+1 I like that you are working on W-space, much appreciated.
The proposed changes will sure make wormhole space feel more dangerous and it will be easier to gank a site running fleet. But is this the change we are looking for? I am all for the idea and would love it as I'm always hunting and never running sites BUT I am not sure this is the way to go. We want wormholers to bring in ISK so that we can get more PVP content by actual brawls rather than ganks. I definitely agree that K162 should not show up instantly or you'd at least have scan for it, instant spawn on Signature Overlay has to be changed in some form.
I personally would like to see a change that embraces PVP as a fight and not as a gank. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
75
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:06:00 -
[277] - Quote
Being someone who bounces between High, Null, and wormhole space I will offer my thoughts as well:
1 - Just remove the sensor overlay and remove instant detection outside of pressing scan. 2 - do not have any delay between the appearance and the ability to detect with probes. The person actively engaged in probing should be rewarded.
Out side of that, it is not clear how this delay would improve the game overall. |
DoToo Foo
Weaponised FuGu
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:09:00 -
[278] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs.
Chitsa, this does nothing to prevent logoff gangs, and does everything to assist the bigger praying on the weaker.
If I am playing dumb, then I deserve to be ganked. My objection to the blocking of active probes from finding K162's (sacrificing at least a highslot, and certainly some attention), is that the weak have the remaining option of not logging in.
Now I am a little dumb; I will remain relatively weak and still log in. I will be the exception. |
Schwa Nuts
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:11:00 -
[279] - Quote
So far the bulk of the people I see supporting this change are the large w-space PVP corps -- the likes of AHARM, No Holes Barred, Verge of Collapse, and Sleeper Social Club. This is, of course, expected. All it does is give them an advantage. Hilariously, some of them even want a delay in appearing in local when exiting a wormhole into k-space -- an advantage no other area of New Eden gets.
Chitsa Jason wrote:I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs.
In my opinion, this comment is very naive. Logoff traps are an incredibly effective way to rack up 20b in killmails in just a few minutes. They will only continue to grow in popularity no matter what changes are implemented.
_____________
Many people have been talking about finding ways to increase the delay of a K162 appearing. But perhaps the best idea to make w-space less safe for carebears that I've heard come from this debate is to go the opposite route. In my experience, the way to "secure" your wormhole is to roll all your holes before you run sites. This way you know that your static hole has not appeared on the other side, and nobody can jump into you unless a new hole appears.
Perhaps a better option is to make it so that when a new wormhole spawns, it appears on both sides simultaneously.
This way, your hole is never truly closed to the threat of someone else jumping into you. |
Winthorp
1389
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:18:00 -
[280] - Quote
Schwa Nuts wrote:So far the bulk of the people I see supporting this change are the large w-space PVP corps -- the likes of AHARM, No Holes Barred, Verge of Collapse, and Sleeper Social Club. This is, of course, expected. All it does is give them an advantage. Hilariously, some of them even want a delay in appearing in local when exiting a wormhole into k-space -- an advantage no other area of New Eden gets..
To be fair you need to look a little further as a lot of us also think these changes as set by CCP Fozie would be inherently unbalanced.
I want to be able to kill farmers but i will want there to be farmers in Wh's in 6 months after CCP makes changes. (Insert witty signature here) |
|
Schwa Nuts
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:25:00 -
[281] - Quote
I like the general strategy of trying to find ways to encourage combat. The notion that w-space should be wildly dangerous is of course a great thing. But often times these changes result in a different reality than was intended. A great example of this would be the recent attempt to introduce more combat into nullsec ratting.
The ESS was originally touted as a way to pinch the ez-mode nullbear in favor of those who are actively seeking battle. But the reality has been different. It took people maybe a week to figure out that you can drop them in an anomaly, kill all the trigger rats, and make it virtually impossible to loot an ESS unless you are in a pod. Of course, if you are trying to steal the ESS, a pod does you no good, because the isk drops as redeemable tokens. So the afk Ishtar ratting crowd just continues to rack up free LP and a 5% bonus to the bounty payout.
Similarly, many people have stated that this change will almost certainly have a consequence of lowering an already low wormhole population. During the ESS debate, Mynnna stated that you must put a carrot on the end of your stick (paraphrasing here). If you make it too difficult to PvE in a system, so excessively leveraged toward the gankers, you'll drive the targets away. You can already see the result of this in systems with a black hole effect -- they are all unoccupied. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1050
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:33:00 -
[282] - Quote
Do it !
In the massive isk-farms that are C5 and C6, add a fixed timer. like 5 minutes in C5, 10 minutes in C6. No mass would trigger this timer early.
For C1: The K162 appears after 1 minuts or as soon as a ship goes through including a pod. For C2: The K162 appears after 2 minuts or as soon as a total equal to destroyer mass goes through. For C3: The K162 appears after 3 minuts or as soon as a total equal to cruiser mass goes through. For C4 : The K162 appears after 4 minuts or as soon as a total equal to cruiser mass goes through. (combo breaker ! BC mass in C4 would enable hard points from T3s to catch stuff before the rest of the fleet jumps through. Which in my opinion would be bad regarding to the already low popularity of C4s. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Proposed change for ECM - Not chance based - not max target reduction based |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:38:00 -
[283] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Do it !
In the massive isk-farms that are C5 and C6, add a fixed timer. like 5 minutes in C5, 10 minutes in C6. No mass would trigger this timer early.
For C1: The K162 appears after 1 minuts or as soon as a ship goes through including a pod. For C2: The K162 appears after 2 minuts or as soon as a total equal to destroyer mass goes through. For C3: The K162 appears after 3 minuts or as soon as a total equal to cruiser mass goes through. For C4 : The K162 appears after 4 minuts or as soon as a total equal to cruiser mass goes through. (combo breaker ! BC mass in C4 would enable hard points from T3s to catch stuff before the rest of the fleet jumps through. Which in my opinion would be bad regarding to the already low popularity of C4s.
I don't get it. What is the reasoning behind the different delay times? |
Daemon Ceed
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:42:00 -
[284] - Quote
I would support that K162's not show up on passive dscan immediately, but to delay them being detected by probes is a total no-go. Anyone that is actively scanning should be rewarded for their vigilance, while those who resort to detecting incoming enemies via d-scan overlay should be sacrificed to Bob. The Sandbox = Play however the hell you want. |
Rena Senn
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
87
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:42:00 -
[285] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Do it !
In the massive isk-farms that are C5 and C6, add a fixed timer. like 5 minutes in C5, 10 minutes in C6. No mass would trigger this timer early..
Flip the situation around and imagine your d-scan not working for 10 minutes after warping into a C6 and you'll see why this idea has a fatal case of the dumbs.
If the delay can't be actively mitigated then it's an uncounterable advantage. If it can be then it's just forcing players to do more busywork along the lines of "click a button every five seconds to not explode" which by itself adds no gameplay value. |
dirtydebbs
Salamander Researches And Industries
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 09:57:00 -
[286] - Quote
this idea makes my head hurt a lot with good or bad ideas
lets just roll it back a little firstly,
good old times, you had to actively spam d scan also probe scan, yes both 1 looking for new sigs in space I,e, K162s also d scanning looking for log off crews or spy's or cloky hunters logged off in ure system, ontop of that also concentrating on running ure site triggers reps ect,
that is a lot of concentration it also meant trust in ure scanning guys or there alts to do there jobs,
weird new times, simple easy risk free pve'ing, sigs appear in ure face so technically once u have rolled ure static and closed all incoming connections all you need to do is watch ure sigs and click d scan as you know damn well that you cant possibly miss a new sig spawn so the d scan is not totally important anymore,
effectively making solo work so much easier and safer even miners are safeish in there new anom grav sites if there switched on,
personally my point is this,
yeh remove the auto sig trash it hard and make people have scan alts or get the noobie to scan for them make it a team effort again, put the grav sites back in there correct places and make them proper old school scan grav sites,
everyone preaching about 1-5 min delay on sigs, wheres the ying and yang in that? go to high sec and become gankers and not pvpers, w-space are pvpers and people who ARE htfu and should kick people who don't HTFU in the TEETH, if you don't like all these carebears who pos up then do something about it, oh yeh that's right not mentioning names but some people used to in the good old times it was called evictions yeh boring at time I know but it removed them from the problem if you don't like it then sort it or just deal with it,
the timer idea would only be slightly a good idea if 1 it was for 5-6 class whs due to the fleets sizes and I still think it is a very very bad idea as even the guys about to get ganked should have some idea whats going down before there put down.
what im seeing at the moment is this god dam it people keep posing up or logging off,
hmm posing up means 1 they already finished there sites ure to late or 2 your scout was to slow in catching them either or its bad luck deal it it or deal with them force them to fight, there behind a pos ok problem solved remove pos = problem solved,
problem 2 they wont fight ok make them evict them or do what some of us used to do and flood there system with berserker alts to harass them for ever with intention of seeding log off cap alts to gank them in future. or simply remove them for w-space,
rant over that's been building up for a few years now but in a nut shell with w-space
get rid of sig overlay go back to spam probes and d-scan again, put grave sites back where they belong again, hell if you want people to be committed to earning the good old risk reward make all sleepers scram that way ure in it till its over
peace out 07
|
SpaceSaft
Sub Par. Beacon Light Alliance
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:02:00 -
[287] - Quote
Only read to page seven, so excuse me if I have missed something that was said p.7-16. Both sides have presented enough reasons and arguments and suggestions on why or why not and if how.
I'm against it because it's bad game design imo:
Previously you had a mechanic that required action,
Now you have a mechanic that requires no action
and now you propose to change it so that action is impossible?
What's your reasoning there? The less people CAN engage with the game world the better?
That just defies all logic. I don't live in whs but invaders must have to do something to gain the advantage. I know you've been thinking about overhauling the d-scan, the local issue is something for k-space but I'm sure it's in this discussion somewhere because instant intel. There is the overhaul of the POS system that players don't know about yet and that will heavily influence the topic as well.
Therefore I'd prefer leaving it as it is to not break it further OR to introduce more gameplay mechanics for both sides to increase depth to the mechanic.
Create a beaconless scan inhibitor that lasts for 5 minutes or less if you must. But don't just remove gameplay.
It's supposed to be the dangerous unknown. Apparently that means for you that defenders that already don't have the element of surprise unless they spam the scan should be disadvantaged even more. This ties directly into "But if they warp to the POS we can't take them on" and following that train of thought you somehow assume content won't happen. What if I told you avoiding a fight can be content too?
This change would decrease player involvement, decrease the possibillity for action in the sandbox and therefore decrease my fun. I'm against it. Besides that I also hold the opinion that CCP should make a PC version for Dust 514. |
Darren Fox
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
32
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:06:00 -
[288] - Quote
One thing some people seem to forget; Even if the K162 hasn't spawned yet, if a ship has jumped through and broken cloak it is on Dscan. If you pay attention to Dscan and notice a new ship/unknown tag: Surprise, someone has connected!
That said, I much prefer brawling/fighting over ganks. I'm still not sure how to get more of that without changing the unique nature of w-space. At the risk of throwing out something that will catch fire: I would be happy if something was introduced that accomplishes the following: "You have something I want, and I can take if you don't defend it. I can take it through active gameplay, and it doesn't involve a 36h timer. If you successfully defend it, I get nothing."
Also, +1 to ore sites changed back to grav signatures. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
347
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:06:00 -
[289] - Quote
It's been a long ass time since I've lived in a WH (like years pre-Odyssey) but gotta kinda agree with folks who are disliking the gank potential of this change. ESPECIALLY with mining sites being Anoms. I'm all for killing lazy stupid miners, but that is just a bit much. There is pretty much nothing they can do to save themselves.
Maybe if the mining anoms were changed to Cosmic Sigs that were 75% located so the name pops up, but still requires a probe to finish finding. Would give miners a bit more of a chance.
I'd imagine combat anoms would be fine the way they are. Targets are in combat ships, and Sleepers love to switch targets. So it's all good.... I guess. I mean they are still gonna die, it's PvE fits vs PvP. But least they can shoot back a bit....
|
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:11:00 -
[290] - Quote
Darren Fox wrote:One thing some people seem to forget; Even if the K162 hasn't spawned yet, if a ship has jumped through and broken cloak it is on Dscan. If you pay attention to Dscan and notice a new ship/unknown tag: Surprise, someone has connected!
It's been years since I went through a new hole in a non-cloaked ship. Just pointing basic hunting mechanics out, that's all. |
|
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:13:00 -
[291] - Quote
SpaceSaft wrote: Previously you had a mechanic that required action,
Now you have a mechanic that requires no action
and now you propose to change it so that action is impossible?
What's your reasoning there? The less people CAN engage with the game world the better?
That's some pretty good summing up there. /thumbsup
|
dirtydebbs
Salamander Researches And Industries
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:16:00 -
[292] - Quote
Darren Fox wrote:One thing some people seem to forget; Even if the K162 hasn't spawned yet, if a ship has jumped through and broken cloak it is on Dscan. If you pay attention to Dscan and notice a new ship/unknown tag: Surprise, someone has connected!
That said, I much prefer brawling/fighting over ganks. I'm still not sure how to get more of that without changing the unique nature of w-space. At the risk of throwing out something that will catch fire: I would be happy if something was introduced that accomplishes the following: "You have something I want, and I can take if you don't defend it. I can take it through active gameplay, and it doesn't involve a 36h timer. If you successfully defend it, I get nothing."
Also, +1 to ore sites changed back to grav signatures.
yup the decloked bit is correct but having x amount of delay would be just plane gankfest, like you said forcing people to fight is what I like and I have thought about this a lot over the years with missed site fights ect, but put it plainly, only way to force a fight and even more so now with the new anchorable items in eve
if you have a npc timer you are unable to warp back to the pos even having it that the pos attacks you ( say due to sleeper site influence you ships id is unrecognisable for x amount of time ) that way they will have to get to a SS for a period of time before safely warping to a pos, the mobile depot gives them a time to quikly refit for a fight or to try and GTFO, but other wise 36hr is ure only way to effectively do it and deploy bug zapper poses to kill them when they re log back in
|
spaceghost69
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:17:00 -
[293] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
Then grow balls and apply the same mechanics to local chat everywhere in nullsec !
CCP Fozzie should wrote:
This would obviously be a very significant change to nullsec mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up nullsec life and further encourage the best parts of the nullsec experience.
|
Schwa Nuts
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:26:00 -
[294] - Quote
spaceghost69 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
Then grow balls and apply the same mechanics to local chat everywhere in nullsec !
Stop trying to make everybody play the game your way. Not all space has to be like w-space.
|
Nbonga
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
29
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:31:00 -
[295] - Quote
There shouldn't be a mechanic that you can't really counter. So just delay signatures appearing in overlay and let them appear instantly with probes. |
Fellblade
Octavian Vanguard
31
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:49:00 -
[296] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I do agree with the idea as it would mean more htfu in wspace. Wspace people can make a lot of isk and the space does not have local. It should be mysterious and unknown. I do understand people position to farm in peace but i do not understand your spirit of wspace. Chitsa, do you know how much cash people are making in class 1-4 wormholes given the time invested and the current price of melted nanos? No-where near as much as they were making a year ago and a tiny fraction of what C5/6 dwellers can make. |
spaceghost69
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:51:00 -
[297] - Quote
Quote:Stop trying to make everybody play the game your way. Not all space has to be like w-space.
We already have a delay for escape to a gank, it's the siege timer of our capitals ships...
It's not fair to let no chance to defenders even if they take right precautions :
Nbonga wrote:
There shouldn't be a mechanic that you can't really counter. So just delay signatures appearing in overlay and let them appear instantly with probes.
+1
Recently we loose two dreads in a gank and then we have form up a fleet to **** the opponents :
http://snailsfrogs.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=22564955
You can say noobs if you want but we just couldn't save our dreads in siege ... |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 10:57:00 -
[298] - Quote
spaceghost69 wrote:Schwa Nuts wrote:Stop trying to make everybody play the game your way. Not all space has to be like w-space. We already have a delay for escape to a gank, it's the siege timer of our capitals ships...
That's the point he is making. You say 'OUR CAPITAL...'. There needs to be a solution that solves the problem for all classes of holes not just the ones you fly in. |
Trinity Faetal
Hard Knocks Inc.
14
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:02:00 -
[299] - Quote
Finally CCP does something for the WH community.. and that is f*ckign over the potential new people who want to come in and set roots. only thing this adds is more site runners getting ganked with the added bonus that they will never see it coming or have time to respond.
GG keep messing with wormholes cuz the community is smaller then nullsec blobs. |
spaceghost69
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:04:00 -
[300] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:That's the point he is making. You say 'OUR CAPITAL...'. There needs to be a solution that solves the problem for all classes of holes not just the ones you fly in.
Well ok, just remove this bullshit of overlay everywhere in nullsec and go back to the previous system, i have no problem with that...
Are we ok ? |
|
Cylin Rath
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:30:00 -
[301] - Quote
I like the idea! As for the delay I think it should be totally random within a set period.
Add more random variance to all the things:
- Mass limits on holes (Add a way to detect the total mass limit of a hole. Each wormhole class would have would have a range of sizes that a new static could be. Lets make 'hole control' interesting in a new way.)
- Ship allowances on holes (Ut oh, can't fit an Orca through this two bill hole, gotta use something else. Lets make 'hole control' interesting in a new way.)
- Random sleeper spawns near customs offices
- Make the percentage part of wormhole effects random within set ranges for each wormhole class.
- Make the size of sleeper spawns in anomalies more random
- More random wandering wormholes
- More random everything!
|
Veskin Sentinel
Stay Frosty.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:30:00 -
[302] - Quote
Hey!
I'm not a wormhole resident (yet) but I find this very interesting and I think there should be some balance between both sides - aggressors and wormhole residents.
Maybe there should be some dynamic factors added to wormhole appearance on scan and overlay, depending on the wormhole type, the number of ships that pass through it, also the time during which the wormhole has been exposed to probe signals and whether there has been a cynosural field lighted near the wormhole.
So if a large group of ships suddenly pass through the wormhole, it should appear on scan and overlay sooner than if only one ship or a small group pass through. These dynamic factors should also include the ship signature radius, so when ships have larger signatures they should make the wormhole appear on scan sooner. In a lore concept this would mean that wormholes should be really sneaky when they appear, but when someone disrupts them by passing through them they would emit waves that can be easily detected.
This would bring some balance and make it fair for the wormhole residents when there is a large dangerous fleet coming to them.
Same with the cynos. When a cyno is lighted near a wormhole there should be a big delay but the wormhole would eventually appear on scan and overlay, but if a large group of ships suddenly jump in using the cyno, then this timer should be shortened significantly, depending on ship overall signature radius, or their mass, or their count - whatever applies better. This would meant that wormhole residents might be aware of the new wormhole before someone jump through.
Additionally if a wormhole has been scanned down multiple times - it should eventually appear in scan results and on overlay, maybe after a long while.
These dynamic factors should apply whether ships pass in large groups or smaller groups but continuously, meaning that if an aggressor group decide to split in smaller groups and pass through the wormhole one after the other to avoid imminent wormhole appearance on scan, they should not take that much advantage of that tactic and the wormhole would appear on scan after a large portion of their fleet has passed through, but it would still appear later than if they all pass through at the same time.
This would mean that if there is some really big danger to the wormhole residents, presented by some large fleet, they should be aware of it, but if there are smaller fleets, or just explorers/ small group of miners etc. there should be less indication of their arrival.
All these dynamic factors - one by one or combined - should bring some balance and make this fair game. I just hope things like this will be easy for the server to handle. :) |
Ssieth
Tenebras Exteriores Dominatus Atrum Mortis
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:31:00 -
[303] - Quote
OK- my previous posts have been somewhat negative in tone (mainly due to the fact I think the idea is ill-considered) so here's my somewhat-more-considered opinion of what the "problem" is and how to fix it:
The problem at hand seems to be that folks want more fights in WH space and with the current mechanics it's almost impossible to hurt someone who runs for the pos shields (beyond a bit of inconvenience). Why is this? Because to take down fixed assets like POSs you have to do the grind which means committing ships to a stay longer than collapse of the wormhole that brought you to the system. Such sieges are slow, dull and logistically annoying.
So - what is to be done? Introduce content that encourages conflict rather than gimp the content that is there.
Basically we need stuff that is possible to profitably deploy in w-space but which can't be removed easily in the timescale in which it takes folks to get to it from an incoming wormhole.
Examples (please accept that this hasn't been exhaustively considered for problems etc):
Gas-gathering deployable that can be dropped at a gas site and sucks in gas. Takes a while to un-anchor or to empty and can be scanned down readily. Shouts to its owners if someone else tries to take stuff from it or kill it. Give it enough HP for it to stick around a while when attacked and it becomes a point of conflict that is worth attacking for invaders and worth defending for locals. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
422
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:37:00 -
[304] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:This isn't about GOOD ******* FIGHTS, this is about risk reward!
This is about the wormhole community asking CCP for a dedicated TEAM to deal with and handle wormhole space.
This thread is a mish-mosh of issues with wormholes but it is all falling on deaf ears. So instead of having everybody just throw everything out there in every thread, how about just creating a internal CCP team to look at, review, compile and fix wormhole space as a whole?
Heck, announce it at Fanfest, even have a 4 hour sit-down with the wormhole community, write everything out, webcast it, take in questions, and have that team actually do some work on it.
That would appease the wormhole community MUCH more than suggesting the possibility of change, and you generate increased use of this half barren land. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Tsalaroth
BRG Corp Ocularis Inferno
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:48:00 -
[305] - Quote
I disagree that the "spamming of probes" made things "easier" in WH space. I agree that the sensor overlay DID make things easier, but to eliminate both is also eliminating the other send of your "spectrum of danger".
See, in the real world, if you analyze your risks and take steps to cover those risks, you can potentially profit greatly in a high-risk field.
A LOT of wormhole space is filled with folks like us, finding folks who DON'T d-scan, who DON'T use the overlay or DON'T use probes to look for K162's.
Either you're out of touch with what is REALLY going on in wormhole space, or you're listening to a small number of loud nerds.
|
stierkobb
Hard Knocks Inc.
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:49:00 -
[306] - Quote
Daemon Ceed wrote:I would support that K162's not show up on passive dscan immediately, but to delay them being detected by probes is a total no-go. Anyone that is actively scanning should be rewarded for their vigilance, while those who resort to detecting incoming enemies via d-scan overlay should be sacrificed to Bob. This.
|
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
18511
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:13:00 -
[307] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
Arrival of hostile forces can always be almost instantly detected by using Directional Scans. there's more than one scanner.
I highly doubt that delaying the appearance of signatures can affect those who are constantly on their guard and currently there are a lot of people who do not use the directional scanner and get caught with their pants down. if you use all the tools at your disposal to detect incoming hostiles to their full potential, you won't get caught unprepared.
I would also like to point at the post above this one and second it.
tl;dr: Those who stay alert will still see incoming hostiles in time, whether the signature's appearance is delayed or not. Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
I like to gank it, gank it!
|
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
355
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:22:00 -
[308] - Quote
1) It is great that CCP is paying attention to WHs and want to make them better.
2) The immediate and automagical propagation of new signatures needs to go, at least in Wspace. This where the delay should be. They should still appear eventually, because its a nice user-friendly thing and we need that to increase the WH population, but they should not appear instantly.
3) Forced delay even when using probes is a bad idea because it prevents people from gathering information even through their own active endeavour. In sum: passive intel is bad, active intel is good. This is why we hate local so much - you dont need to do absolutely anything and it serves you perfect and up to date intel which cannot be avoided. And it is also why we respect combat scanning - its a learned skill that requires effort and patience and can be countered by vigilant victims, so the scanner actually needs to be good to succeed.
4) Delayed signature appearance would favour existing strong groups over smaller ones. WSpace should reward being sneaky and clever, not about getting advantage through numbers by arbitrary mechanics. This would also hurt groups in lower WH classes.
5) Proposed change would make seeding and quick defensive rolling uncounterable and usually even undiscoverable - again hurting active players. I'm especially worried about the rolling part. Engaging someone who just connected to our hole and wants to get rid of it is already very difficult and has very short time window. Preventing us from seeing it and scanning the connection altogether would make it nigh impossible and would make defensive rolling perfectly safe - which is very very bad. Wormohle pvpers do not find their content only in their static, we need incoming connections with which to interact as well.
6) This gets me to the overall aim of the proposal. It seem to be tailored towards ganking c5/c6 escalation runners but it is very narrow and without consideration to both other activities and to other WH classes. Imho the real problem of the often mentioned ease of avoiding pvp in wspace is NOT seeing the new connection (esp. if their automagical apperance on the overlay gets fixed) but how easy it is to get rid of it.
Rolling wormholes with capitals is just too safe, too risk-free. This is what I think needs adjusting. People who want to avoid pvp can currently simply isolate their system from other players and prevent interaction. And even if new connection spawns, unless its already bubbled (which shows enemy presence and removes any surprise) they can simply warp their rolling fleet to 0, jump in, jump out, and its done. Only possible counters are cloaky carrier and/or crossjumping T3 blob and getting trapped, which is less than ideal and highly disproportional.
Wormholes need more interaction between all kinds groups, not giving one of them advantage. We need more connections between all classes and we need those connections to be more risky (but not more difficult) to sever. We need it to be more difficult to isolate yourself, not to actively defend yourself from people you might meet. There were already suggestions for multiple static C4s, more roaming connections, making K162 sides spawn automatically without the need to warp to the sig, even spawing extra connections to wormholes with current sleeper kills. Add to that some new mechanic for riskier rolling (like the warp-in deviation increasing with ship mass I suggested earlier, or anything else) and you have a very good WH shakeup. All these would I think be much better for fixing the "pvp avoidance issue" without collaterally screwing someone or something else up. W-Space Realtor |
Ssieth
Tenebras Exteriores Dominatus Atrum Mortis
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:30:00 -
[309] - Quote
Liafcipe9000 wrote: Arrival of hostile forces can always be almost instantly detected by using Directional Scans. there's more than one scanner.
No argument there.
Liafcipe9000 wrote: I highly doubt that delaying the appearance of signatures can affect those who are constantly on their guard and currently there are a lot of people who do not use the directional scanner and get caught with their pants down. if you use all the tools at your disposal to detect incoming hostiles to their full potential, you won't get caught unprepared.
Precisely -if you're willing to do a tedious, simple, manual task then the new mechanic won't have any effect on your gameplay.
Yay \o/ let's make EVE more tedious - that's what it needs.
Liafcipe9000 wrote: tl;dr: Those who stay alert will still see incoming hostiles in time, whether the signature's appearance is delayed or not.
Those who are willing to put up with added tedium will be fine. Those that don't will migrate elsewhere (possibly out of the game).
This isn't a realistic solution. Tedium rarely solves problems.
On the other hand - we _could_ add things to realistically fight over rather than making existing gameplay less enjoyable for someone? Is that too radical an idea? |
Winthorp
1391
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:33:00 -
[310] - Quote
Axloth Okiah wrote:1) It is great that CCP is paying attention to WHs and want to make them better.
2) The immediate and automagical propagation of new signatures needs to go, at least in Wspace. This where the delay should be. They should still appear eventually, because its a nice user-friendly thing and we need that to increase the WH population, but they should not appear instantly.
3) Forced delay even when using probes is a bad idea because it prevents people from gathering information even through their own active endeavour. In sum: passive intel is bad, active intel is good. This is why we hate local so much - you dont need to do absolutely anything and it serves you perfect and up to date intel which cannot be avoided. And it is also why we respect combat scanning - its a learned skill that requires effort and patience and can be countered by vigilant victims, so the scanner actually needs to be good to succeed.
4) Delayed signature appearance would favour existing strong groups over smaller ones. WSpace should reward being sneaky and clever, not about getting advantage through numbers by arbitrary mechanics. This would also hurt groups in lower WH classes.
5) Proposed change would make seeding and quick defensive rolling uncounterable and usually even undiscoverable - again hurting active players. I'm especially worried about the rolling part. Engaging someone who just connected to our hole and wants to get rid of it is already very difficult and has very short time window. Preventing us from seeing it and scanning the connection altogether would make it nigh impossible and would make defensive rolling perfectly safe - which is very very bad. Wormhole pvpers do not find their content only in their static, we need incoming connections with which to interact as well.
6) This gets me to the overall aim of the proposal. It seems to be tailored towards ganking c5/c6 escalation runners but it is very narrow and without consideration to both other activities and to other WH classes. Imho the real problem of the often mentioned ease of avoiding pvp in wspace is NOT seeing the new connection (esp. if their automagical apperance on the overlay gets fixed) but how easy it is to get rid of it.
Rolling wormholes with capitals is just too safe, too risk-free. This is what I think needs adjusting. People who want to avoid pvp can currently simply isolate their system from other players and prevent interaction. And even if new connection spawns, unless its already bubbled (which shows enemy presence and removes any surprise) they can simply warp their rolling fleet to 0, jump in, jump out, and its done. Only possible counters are cloaky carrier and/or crossjumping T3 blob and getting trapped, which is less than ideal and highly disproportional (we usually dont mind getting collapsed in, many actually love going balls deep, the issue is that even if you're willing to commit to this highly risky "maneuver" it still is difficult to time it right and requires luck/ignorance).
Wormholes need more interaction between all kinds groups, not giving one of them advantage. We need more connections between all classes and we need those connections to be more risky (but not more difficult) to sever. We need it to be more difficult to isolate yourself, not to actively defend yourself from people you might meet. There were already suggestions for multiple static C4s, more roaming connections, making K162 sides spawn automatically without the need to warp to the sig, even spawing extra connections to wormholes with current sleeper kills. Add to that some new mechanic for riskier rolling (like the warp-in deviation increasing with ship mass I suggested earlier, or anything else) and you have a very good WH shakeup. All these would I think be much better for fixing the "pvp avoidance issue" without collaterally screwing someone or something else up.
This guy gets it. (Insert witty signature here) |
|
Peter Drakon
Independent Traders and Builders Chained Reactions
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:37:00 -
[311] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:...and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience...
When you wrote the best parts of the wormhole experience what did you mean exactly?
For me, this is the unknown, the exploration, the boldly go where no man has gone before part of wormhole life. Every wormhole is a new unknown, a new chance to explore, to find richness, enemies or friends. But this does not include the PvP, because that is everywhere in EvE, from the moment you log in into the game, wormholes are not a special PvP place, at least not any more special than any other game parts.
In my experience in the best games there are no one rules them all kind of win-buttons, but the mechanics are based on a rock-scissors-paper-lizard-spock meta game.
EvE is such a game: every action has a counter, every attack a possible defense. In high there is CONCORD and manual piloting, in low and null there is the local channel, and in wormholes there is the dscan and the probes. Every one of those things needs a player action to work, and any AFK playing is what surely will send someone back into a station to wake up in a fresh clone.
Your proposal tries to make more conflict without any chance to counter it, offering no rock to beat the scissor. I can accept that in your opinion at the moment it is too easy to escape from an attack, though I donGÇÖt agree with it, as it needs the defender player to be active, to play, to watch, to scan. If you have to change this, then I would like to ask for a mechanic that involves some action, that has a counter to the scissorGÇÖs attack.
Thinking about this problem this is the best I came up:
Make the dscan and the sensor overlay linked, neither automated, but the actual scan triggered from the press of the scan button, and make the scanning precision affected by the scanning skills.
For example the Astrometric Acquisition skill can change how fast a scan can happen after the button was pressed, so when you press the scan button the scan done is not instantaneous, but actually takes a few seconds to finish. Also, the sensor overlay should not be done instantly and automated, but the scan button should be pressed for an update. Maximum dscan range could be affected by the Astrometric Rangefinding (it could be 14AU only with maximum skills) and the distance and signature types shown in the description could be affected by the Astrometric Pinpointing skill (if low skill then a farther object would be "unkown").
Regards, Peter |
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
14
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:56:00 -
[312] - Quote
-É -+-+-¦-¦-é -Ç-¦-+-Ç-¦-¦-+-é-ç-+-¦-+ -â-¦-¦ -+-¦-ç-+-â-é -¦-â-+-¦-é-î -+-¦-¦ -¦-+-+-¦-¦ -¦-+-+-Ç-¦-+-+-¦-+-î-+-ï-+ -+-+-+-¦-+-¦-+-+-¦-+ -¦-+-Ç-+-à-+-+-+-¦, -¦-+-¦-¦-¦-+-¦-+-+-¦-+ -+-+-¦-ï-à -ü-+-ü-é-¦-+, -¦-+-+-+-¦-+-+-¦, -¦-+-+-+-+-¦-+-+-ü-é-¦-¦ -+-¦-Ç-¦-¦-+-é-¦-¦ -+ -Ç-¦-+-+-+-+-¦-Ç-¦-+-+-Å -+-¦-+, -¦ -+-¦ -ü-+-+-¦-¦-¦-¦-é-î -é-¦-+-ï -ä-+-Ç-â-+-¦ -Ç-¦-¦-+ -+-¦-ü-â-¦-¦-¦-+-+-Å -¦-¦-¦-+-¦--é-+ -¦-+-â-+-+-ü-é-+. |
alex 121
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:00:00 -
[313] - Quote
-Æ-¦-Ç-à-â-ê-¦-â -+-+-ë-¦-¦-+-¦ -å-¦-+-+-ç-¦-+ -Æ-Ñ -+-¦-+-+-+-¦-¦-é -Ç-â-ü-ü-¦-+-¦ -ü-+-+-¦-ë-¦-ü-é-¦-+. -í-+-ï-ü-+-¦ -ç-é-+ -é-+ -+-¦-ü-â-¦-¦-¦-é-î -é-â-é, -ü -é-¦-+-+ -¦-é-+ -¦-+-¦-¦-é -¦ -ü1--ü3 -+-¦-é |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
32
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:02:00 -
[314] - Quote
spaceghost69 wrote:Bjurn Akely wrote:That's the point he is making. You say 'OUR CAPITAL...'. There needs to be a solution that solves the problem for all classes of holes not just the ones you fly in. Well ok, just remove this bullshit of overlay everywhere in nullsec and go back to the previous system, i have no problem with that... Are we ok ?
Yeah, that's my suggestion anyway. |
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:12:00 -
[315] - Quote
I think it`s not good idea! If K162 will be detected with delay, when you scan with Probes
It`s awesome nerf of PvE and awesome bust of Covro gangs. For total nerf PvE in WH you must give prop subsystem with InterdictionLauncher&WarpDisraptionField!
In WH no Local, if you do this, WH resedent will be WILD paranoid... This is not normal game, it would be sheer misery. -óhis will cause a decline in popularity WH, if you want it, do it. It not so much will make life in WH more dangerous, how many will force players to suffer, that is. There will be an outflow of players.
If you are not satisfied with the current state of affairs in WH, you can do old system, when K162 see only with Probes. I living in WH and can say: at the moment there is very dangerous and no one will even 50% guarantees that next to you is not a pirate declock.
PS^ Sorry for my eng... |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Awakened.
1449
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:17:00 -
[316] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ali Aras wrote:Is "appears on probe scans but not sensor overlay" not possible? Yes, it's very possible, but (as talked about at the summit) it doesn't potentially handle the problem as comprehensively as this. To clarify, delaying the appearance in just the overlay and delaying it in both the overlay and probe scans would likely take a similar amount of development time.
Delaying the appearance of a new signature for the discovery scanner is fine and the way it should but also having a delay with scan probes would be a mistake.
If there is a signature in the system, you should be able to scan it down regardless of how long ago it spawned. +1 |
Jessica Danikov
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
312
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:18:00 -
[317] - Quote
The core issue seems to be the binary nature of scanning- every signature of interest appears, thus when a new one comes into existence, be it a site or a wormhole, its existence is immediately apparent and only its position is uncertain (which can be rectified by probing).
The only way existence can be made uncertain is to a) stop all signatures auto-magically appearing (perhaps based on strength), b) have a way to confirm a 'weak' signature, but most importantly c) have false positives that must be cleared. A dedicated scanner that keeps bopping false positives is likely to detect a genuine new signature a lot faster, which favours those who put in effort.
Add to this a dynamic signature strength based on, perhaps, expended mass-limit (which could push it above the auto-magical limit), then you have a nice continuum between hard-to-locate unknown signatures and obvious incursions. |
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:29:00 -
[318] - Quote
And most importantly, you will make it impossible farm for single pilots, while, as a group of pilots will be farmed almost unchanged... |
Kristalll
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
19
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:32:00 -
[319] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Sephira Galamore wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with. The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh. You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something.. No it is bad. There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income. .... So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no.
Cause apparently you're too stupid to recognize the point was about the structure that notifies locals of player activity. THAT was the point. It had nothing to do with how wormholers make money.
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4504
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:33:00 -
[320] - Quote
Schwa Nuts wrote:So far the bulk of the people I see supporting this change are the large w-space PVP corps -- the likes of AHARM, No Holes Barred, Verge of Collapse, and Sleeper Social Club. This is, of course, expected. All it does is give them an advantage. Hilariously, some of them even want a delay in appearing in local when exiting a wormhole into k-space -- an advantage no other area of New Eden gets.
No, the hilarious part is the nullsec farmers coming out and complaining about losing ships to logoff gangs.
I'd say the split is pretty clearly:
folks who have been in w-space for more than say 2 years: In favor newer folks: opposed
All the complaints about w-space PVE being boring and terrible is also hilarious, since this would change that. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
|
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:40:00 -
[321] - Quote
Two step wrote: folks who have been in w-space for more than say 2 years: In favor
In favour of what ? Reading the thread there seem to be a fair number of veterans of w-space who in favour of a pre-odysessy situation where the delay only applies to the sensor overlay (in fact it just going on the first 10 pages it would appear to be a majority opinion).
Quote: All the complaints about w-space PVE being boring and terrible is also hilarious, since this would change that.
Well, it would give additional reasons why PVE is 'terrible'. |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
359
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:43:00 -
[322] - Quote
alex 121 wrote:-Æ-¦-Ç-à-â-ê-¦-â -+-+-ë-¦-¦-+-¦ -å-¦-+-+-ç-¦-+ -Æ-Ñ -+-¦-+-+-+-¦-¦-é -Ç-â-ü-ü-¦-+-¦ -ü-+-+-¦-ë-¦-ü-é-¦-+. -í-+-ï-ü-+-¦ -ç-é-+ -é-+ -+-¦-ü-â-¦-¦-¦-é-î -é-â-é, -ü -é-¦-+-+ -¦-é-+ -¦-+-¦-¦-é -¦ -ü1--ü3 -+-¦-é http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mDTLphIVY W-Space Realtor |
mechform
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
21
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:46:00 -
[323] - Quote
I am a fan of K162 not appearing on passive scan, but i think it should be appear on scan if a player is actively scanning. Black Power - Brotha's in space unite! |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
596
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:51:00 -
[324] - Quote
I haven't read all 17 pages. So apologies if this has already been mentioned.
But why not have the delay be based off of system class? A K162 is the destination end of a static wormhole iirc. How about 1 minute per class, with class 1s having no delay? So like this:
- Class 1 - No delay
- Class 2 - 1 minute
- Class 3 - 2 minutes
- Class 4 - 3 minutes
- Class 5 - 4 minutes
- Class 6 - 5 minutes
tbh though, this doesn't stop someone from coming into your hole (pardon the pun) from your static or a roaming hole before you go probe it out. So honestly, I don't see how this changes anything in a significant way. If you're going to do something like this, make it apply to all wormholes, not just K162s.
Also, I told you [CCP] how putting grav sites into no-scan-required anoms would screw miners. But no one listened. Free Ripley Weaver! |
Veskin Sentinel
Stay Frosty.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:52:00 -
[325] - Quote
Actually I'm starting to dislike this idea of delayed wormhole appearance on probe scan and overlay.
One good question about that is: What will happen when current wormhole exits collapse and new ones appear? They should be able to be scanned immediately or else people would be stuck in there.
I'm pretty sure that the current mechanics work good enough. |
Angux Thermopyle
Negative Density
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:55:00 -
[326] - Quote
Terrible idea.
I've lived in WH space for over 3 years and my primary role is PvP.
WH's should reward the vigilant and punish the lazy. Return the mechanics to pre-Odyssey.
Current mechanics reward the lazy. Suggested mechanics punish even the vigilant. Pre-Odyssey is the correct balance.
Wormhole income in the lower classes has already been greatly reduced and this change will make them unlivable. I can be on grid with a fleet running sites under a minute after I jump into the system and the fleet behind me...on them in under two. The people running the sites would have less than three seconds to detect me on D-scan as I enter their system. No warning I am there until I decloak to tackle... and by then the rest of my fleet is in warp. Imagine if you are a lowerclass Wormhole dweller and you are having to replace a tengu every week and taking the SP hit. You never get ahead. This is not a good change. Its not about protecting the carebears, its about rewarding the vigilant and punishing the lazy.
If the code is borked and you can't restore the previous mechanics then just leave it alone.
Can we please just do something about POS's and corp roles and stop screwing with stuff that isn't broke. Jeez. |
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
68
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:55:00 -
[327] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole
This please. Fits well with the rest of EvE.
A lone scout can thus be sneaky and useful. But if a fleet is moving in to engage, the local dwellers are notified.
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:56:00 -
[328] - Quote
Veskin Sentinel wrote:Actually I'm starting to dislike this idea of delayed wormhole appearance on probe scan and overlay.
One good question about that is: What will happen when current wormhole exits collapse and new ones appear? They should be able to be scanned immediately or else people would be stuck in there.
I'm pretty sure that the current mechanics work good enough.
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here... If someone's trapped in a wormhole after a connection closes, it's either a K162 or wandering connection which will not be replaced in the hole that they are in, or a static connection which will reappear immediately even with the proposed changes... |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:58:00 -
[329] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Sephira Galamore wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with. The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh. You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something.. No it is bad. There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income. .... So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no. Cause apparently you're too stupid to recognize the point was about the structure that notifies locals of player activity. THAT was the point. It had nothing to do with how wormholers make money.
Except someone then decided to claim that it was a good idea to have a wormhole ESS that takes part of your income in exchange for increased security. The original point is irrelevant because people WERE suggesting something a lot more like the ESS. |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society Affirmative.
308
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:08:00 -
[330] - Quote
Two step wrote:No, the hilarious part is the nullsec farmers coming out and complaining about losing ships to logoff gangs. Not a nullseccer, never lost a ship via a logoff gang.
Two step wrote:I'd say the split is pretty clearly:
folks who have been in w-space for more than say 2 years: In favor newer folks: opposed
I'd say you have trouble reading.. :p
I've lived in wspace for in fact over 2 years, in 3 different systems. All <= C4 (and I have no interest in moving up). |
|
Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
122
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:09:00 -
[331] - Quote
I'm personally with the "get rid of of sensor overlay entirely" group. This "feature" was to me the true, and blatantly visual, end to the exploration profession in Eve. It was the end to the unknown. You may not know what it is, you may not have an immediate warp in to it's location, but you certainly, and immediately, know it's there, without any effort whatsoever, and thus you're not discovering it because everybody and their mother know its there as soon as they enter the system too. Not just K162s but EVERYTHING. It is to me nearly as bad as the static door was when y'all got rid of our hangers for a time. I miss the days when being an explorer in Eve actually meant something. Before you gave everyone the easy button. (although button is a bad choice of words since they don't even have to put forth the effort of pressing anything) |
Malcolm Rennolds
Inquisition FiS Division Surely You're Joking
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:11:00 -
[332] - Quote
This change only makes it easier to gank site runners, and maybe once a year you'll find a fleet sitting on a static and get to fight them. But 99% of the time it is just a nerf to site running. Wormholes need more people, making living in them suck more is not the way to do it. Especially in c6 space where you're going to be regularly sieging dreads in sites.
Although I do love ganking caps running sites, might persuade me to move back to a wormhole with a static c6 connection. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2090
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:11:00 -
[333] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Sephira Galamore wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with. The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh. You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something.. No it is bad. There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income. .... So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no. Cause apparently you're too stupid to recognize the point was about the structure that notifies locals of player activity. THAT was the point. It had nothing to do with how wormholers make money.
Wow nice. Regardless of the "point", it would be something that takes the loot, at which point the way that isk is generated IS a factor.
Not to mention those who actually live in WH's kinda like, in fact thrive on this No local thing. So having something that will now spam local chat would be just stupid. |
Veskin Sentinel
Stay Frosty.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:18:00 -
[334] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Veskin Sentinel wrote:Actually I'm starting to dislike this idea of delayed wormhole appearance on probe scan and overlay.
One good question about that is: What will happen when current wormhole exits collapse and new ones appear? They should be able to be scanned immediately or else people would be stuck in there.
I'm pretty sure that the current mechanics work good enough. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here... If someone's trapped in a wormhole after a connection closes, it's either a K162 or wandering connection which will not be replaced in the hole that they are in, or a static connection which will reappear immediately even with the proposed changes...
Sorry, I'm just not familiar enough with wormholes. But if that case applies to all WH, then maybe the new idea is a bit more reasonable. Not sure if it's reasonable enough though. |
Trinneth
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:28:00 -
[335] - Quote
It's great that you're that you're looking at this - the passive intel provided by the sensor overlay gave a significant advantage to the defender, so I'm glad this is being looked at.
However I'm not wild about your proposed solution - as many others have said, creating a situation where there's no way for the defender to get that intel is just as bad - the real advantage of the pre-odyssey system was that it was possible to spot a new signature pop up, but required a player to be actively scanning. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
345
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:32:00 -
[336] - Quote
Take baby steps. When you swing wildly with a huge stick, you hit all kinds of things that you didn't intend to hit and can cause unexpected problems. Make one small change at a time, see how it pans out, and then make another based on results from the first. If the first change doesn't work out, roll it back, figure out why, and push something new. Your Scrum development style supports this. Everything in me hopes and believes this is what you guys are doing with the new-POSes.
First revert the changes:
1) Rock mining sites are once again cosmic signatures. 2) The discovery overlay shows nothing for W-space, at all, ever. 3) You can scan without probes in space to see cosmic anomalies with 100% accuracy.
Then take a baby step:
1) The discovery overlay shows a list of the signatures and anomalies in a system beginning five minutes after you enter the system, and updates every five minutes after that.
This means that as soon as you jump into a system, your scanner shows nothing. You can scan for anomalies immediately, without dropping probes, or you can wait the five minutes for the 100% anomalies and signature IDs to show up. If you see activity, you might want an instant list. Otherwise, you might not care if it takes 5 minutes to appear.
If someone is actively scanning the system, they will see your new K162 signature appear immediately, and will be able to scan it immediately. Anyone who is not actively scanning the system will automatically see the new K162 signature ID appear no less than 5 minutes and no greater than 10 minutes later -- to account for varied login times and automatic scanner update windows.
Watch and see how that works. Just by virtue of making the scanner overlay less automatic, lazy farming fleets that grew to depend on it will die in a fire.
Another baby step might be causing K162 signatures to spawn only when they are entered; not at warp. I'm sure there are many more the community might suggest.
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:42:00 -
[337] - Quote
Meytal wrote:Take baby steps. When you swing wildly with a huge stick, you hit all kinds of things that you didn't intend to hit and can cause unexpected problems. Make one small change at a time, see how it pans out, and then make another based on results from the first. If the first change doesn't work out, roll it back, figure out why, and push something new. Your Scrum development style supports this. Everything in me hopes and believes this is what you guys are doing with the new-POSes.
First revert the changes:
1) Rock mining sites are once again cosmic signatures. 2) The discovery overlay shows nothing for W-space, at all, ever. 3) You can scan without probes in space to see cosmic anomalies with 100% accuracy.
Then take a baby step:
1) The discovery overlay shows a list of the signatures and anomalies in a system beginning five minutes after you enter the system, and updates every five minutes after that.
This means that as soon as you jump into a system, your scanner shows nothing. You can scan for anomalies immediately, without dropping probes, or you can wait the five minutes for the 100% anomalies and signature IDs to show up. If you see activity, you might want an instant list. Otherwise, you might not care if it takes 5 minutes to appear.
If someone is actively scanning the system, they will see your new K162 signature appear immediately, and will be able to scan it immediately. Anyone who is not actively scanning the system will automatically see the new K162 signature ID appear no less than 5 minutes and no greater than 10 minutes later -- to account for varied login times and automatic scanner update windows.
Watch and see how that works. Just by virtue of making the scanner overlay less automatic, lazy farming fleets that grew to depend on it will die in a fire.
Another baby step might be causing K162 signatures to spawn only when they are entered; not at warp. I'm sure there are many more the community might suggest.
I like this, it makes sense, offering a variety of opportunities for players, giving the advantage to those who are paying attention while still offering an opportunity for secrecy and stealthy scouting.
|
Obil Que
Star Explorers
46
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:51:00 -
[338] - Quote
C2 resident. chiming in.
1. Return to pre-odyssey functionality for scanners in wormhole space. No new artificial delay should be introduced as it is exactly as described, artificial. It is unbalanced in favor of the initiating party.
2. Set Ore sites in w-space back to signatures. With the soon to be introduced ore compressor, WH space mining has a chance to be relevant for corps. Maybe it isn't the best ISK/hr or maybe not even that much better than HS mining, but it will be an *option* with the introduction of that module. Setting Ore sites back to signatures will give residents enough security to attempt mining giving more chance for interaction with other players. Right now, they are probably ignored by a huge portion of w-space residents. Ore signatures + ore compression modules = new content in w-space.
Be very careful with the idea of making K162s instantiate on jump vs. warp. K162s in k-space will become virtually non-existent. Corporations like mine with a static k-space connection will open it only when needed and close it immediately when finished (if we're not lazy). This will limit k-space initiated exploration to non-K162 connections and will only instantiate in WH space if an explorer actually decides to enter the hole. The number of wandering K162s in WH space from k-space will decrease as a result as many explorers do not enter every wormhole but only those they feel they can handle.
Let's start with these two ideas. We all have additional desire for new content across EVE. I will be waiting patiently to see what new content is on the horizon
|
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:23:00 -
[339] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:Deeone wrote:AutumnWind1983 wrote:mynnna wrote:Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem. If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey. live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol Yes, I've lived in one for a while. If the attacking fleet is all cloakies, they're gimping their fits and you should have a good chance in a fight. If you're mining in a wh you're doing it wrong. Get a venture, suck gas, and accept you'll die some times.
so im sure your corp would used the same tackle it uses on sieged dreads that it would on say rattlers and tengus in a c4.......I said TACKLE is cloaky t3s. If u dont understand thats just the part of the fleet that holds u down while their friends come im sorry. just cuz the first 5 guys in are cloaky dont mean the whole fleet is ffs. i get u guys want easy dread kills with this change but come on think about whats good for balance not just ganking. |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
157
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:28:00 -
[340] - Quote
As many others stated:
Active intel gathering should allow for an up to date overview of what is going on in the system you are monitoring (e.a. no delay)
Vigilance should be rewarded.
The current system provides too much information, and combined with the sig and wormhole mappers everyone is using makes it WAY too obvious when something has changed.
I'm all for giving new signatures an invisibility timer that shields them from passive detection. |
|
Kynric
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:30:00 -
[341] - Quote
This change in my opinion favors the gankers and encourages rage rolling which is not much fun. I agree giving the sigs out to all for no effort is bad too.
My suggested remedy would be to require core probes to see/find wormhole objects. If the home team cares enough about their security to maintain an active probe watch they should be able to notice an incoming wormhole. Keep in mind many ships can't mount a probe without sacrificing some capability and the ones that can will have to split attention between dscan, probes and whatever else they are doing. That balance worked well in the past and seems like it would be easy to implement as all it would require is removing wormholes from the scanner results when probes are not deployed. An unintended side effect of making it easier to identify wormholes from other results by comparing results with probes to those without would speed up scanning routes a bit but that doesn't seem to be a problem as it isn't much different than what we did comparing sig sizes back in the deep space probe days.
This change fozzie proposed would allow you to open up a hole into someone's home, enter it, decide it's a dangerous place and then roll it away without the home team being able to disrupt the roll operation. In such a way it let's the ganker avoid pvp which is probably not the intent. |
Von Keigai
32
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:30:00 -
[342] - Quote
I am a C4 resident. I also solo hunt in wspace, and on occasion have my corpmates around to back me in a small gang. However we rarely find targets, and those that we do manage to kill are almost always newbs or otherwise obviously ignorant. This makes for somewhat depressing hunting. It's no wonder, though, since via the discovery scanner anyone with much of a clue is making sure there are no new connections every minute or more often.
I find it ridiculous that we can zip up our system and be guaranteed almost perfect safety, and run sites for 100m/character/hour. Blue loot means there is not even a market balance to this capability -- it is paid for via the inflation of everyone else's ISK. Of course, just because wspace is too safe does not mean we do not exploit it. We do.
I am a wspace hunter. I am undiscriminating. I will gank a mining barge if I can find one (though that is very rare for good reason). But that said, I want a reason to have to actually hunt, to make it be (real life human) hunting skill that gets me a kill and not just luck or the ignorance of my target. This requires getting targets out there that can be detected by skill. It also requires that non-ignorant targets actually be out there in space. The changes CCP is going to make to reprocessing will help this a lot, but I still think that mining in anoms is too large an exposure.
Here's what I think should be done. First, remove the discovery scanner's signature pushing in wspace. Sigs should never be detected in wspace without using probes. (This should also be the case in null unless upgraded, but that's another discussion.)
Second, give some more advantage to hunters. I think 5 minutes is too much. Here's what I think: use gate cloak. The general idea is: while gate cloak is held, that player cannot be detected in that system. In wspace, make K162s not be detectable until any ship that has crossed that wormhole drops gate cloak. As soon as any ship does drop its gate cloak, the wormhole is a normal K162 and can be scanned with probes. This gives an aggressor a minute to evaluate the situation, but he can only do it from that one position. Make a similar change to promote hunting in kspace: a player should not appear in local until he drops gate cloak.
To prevent wspace from losing connectivity, there should be a mechanic to make K162s eventually detectable. So, make it so that they have a 1/60 chance per minute to become detectable regardless of flown-throughness.
Also, the current design of ore anoms that are immediately knowable is unfair to rock miners. Miners cannot fight back; they should have the protection of being in a sig site. (And also mining is crap income by comparison to other stuff in wspace.) By contrast, a PVE fleet has significant PVP capability. Please revert the change that put ore sites in anoms.
vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1071
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:38:00 -
[343] - Quote
Two step wrote:Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time.
5 +/- 2 minutes is much more than enough time to get a gank fleet in, kill something, and get back out. If we've done that in 90 seconds under the current mechanics, then your much bigger alliance could do a great deal more. The net effect will be large alliances driving small ones out of W-space.
A factor of minutes turns the problem from trivial hole control to trivial hole invasion. There has to be a less drastic solution.
I like the idea, posted above, of restricting the Discovery Scanner to Empire. Yes, people can spam probes, but that's because self-described hunters insisted that they must be able to pop into a system, blanket it with combat probes, and identify targets anywhere in system as quickly as possible, with the fair and natural consequence that defenders can blanket a system with combat probes and identify attackers anywhere in system as quickly as possible. If you want to revisit that mechanic, I would cheerfully support it. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
52
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:41:00 -
[344] - Quote
Didn't read all these 18 pages.
But I think a plain delay is bad. It could be better with more subtlety.
Make the signature appear when a certain number of warpin have been initiated on the other side. Number depending of the wh class. So as soon as you initiate warp (or land if you prefer) on the entrance, you create a "distorsion" or whatever that strengten the signal of the other side exit, thus making it visible after a certain level is reached. (3, 4, 5 warpin... it's up to you). |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
634
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:43:00 -
[345] - Quote
What w space needs is conflict generators. Pos is too large and too long reinforced for a gang to attack. Deployables in the same vein as the ess in nullsec would provide excellent conflict generators while not artificially inflating risk. Give people a reason to put thenselves in danger rather than simply changing mechanics to raise risk without a carrot. That way people can steal income and fight over it. I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
643
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:45:00 -
[346] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.
Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3376
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:48:00 -
[347] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. -Fozzie
What would stop us from spamming combat probes to check for new and unexpected ships?
I appreciate it'd be less reliable given the popularity of cloaky fits in W-space, but still, all it takes is the appearance of some unknown probes in system or a lucky bit of timing and we'd at least know something was going on and be able to respond accordingly. "Maybe a K162 spawned" would be near the top of our scenario list, especially if we have eyes on the static. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:55:00 -
[348] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. -Fozzie What would stop us from spamming combat probes to check for new and unexpected ships?
Cloaking. Especially considering the time a probe scan takes to happen, even on max skills.
What's wrong with "the old trick" of spamming probe scans. Isn't that just sort of... what you're supposed to be able to do? the system was fine before the new system scanner was introduced. I don't agree that there was a problem before, because you had to have probe coverage and actively be scanning. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
12
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:56:00 -
[349] - Quote
The sensor overlay is terrible.
1. If I'm scouting and jump into a camped system then I want to use my precious gate cloak seconds to check the configuration of the gate camp. Having a full screen animation blatted across the top of everything with signature markers animating all over the place is infuriating.
2. Encouraging players to access exploration content in low and null sec is not helped by the fact that pirates jumping into a system now get an instant view of all signatures in system which they can direction scan in moments without needing to launch probes.
Creating a discrepancy between the sigs that are present and the sigs displayed by the sensor overlay is only going to make what is already a horrible mechanic even worse through adding inconsistency.
Get rid of the sensor overlay please. It was a horrible idea in the first place. But you tried it. It's still horrible. Please just do us a favour and kill it.
At the very least for the love of all that's good in the world let us turn it off.
People in here suggesting operating in wspace is currently zero risk are imo being deliberately disingenuous. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
643
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:56:00 -
[350] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. -Fozzie What would stop us from spamming combat probes to check for new and unexpected ships? I appreciate it'd be less reliable given the popularity of cloaky fits in W-space, but still, all it takes is the appearance of some unknown probes in system or a lucky bit of timing and we'd at least know something was going on and be able to respond accordingly. "Maybe a K162 spawned" would be near the top of our scenario list, especially if we have eyes on the static.
Nothing and that is absolutely fine. |
|
Vhek Rikah
unnamed AG Nulli Secunda
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:59:00 -
[351] - Quote
ccp must decide If they want to have big blocks like in nullsec plus all the negative effects like blueballing. and people who say theres no blueballing in w-space are all liars. its already nullsec 0.5 without local and mass restrictions.
its important to give corps the opportunity to progress from -c4s to c5s+, its the only way to get more people into w-space and more people in w-space imply more to shoot at.
by give the aggressor too much power you force them into big blocks or they leave w-space. -c4s are already bad profit wise, every 0.0 renter can make more ISK relatively safe, if you make the -c4 life too risky, they will move out of the already empty w-space.
look at brave newbies, they started in lowsec and sovless npc 0.0 and now progressing. it was possible because they lived relatively safe and they had the time to grow to what they are now. by making the gankers life too easy newbros avoid joining w-space.
if you dont like PVE in W-Space then lets remove it completly and W-Space will be Elite PVP Land you all want... not |
Longinius Spear
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
256
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:01:00 -
[352] - Quote
I'm a wormhole hunter and ganking pve ships is my wheelhouse. I rarely participate in pve content myself and when I do, I often welcome the break in my mindless cross shooting with a swift blow to the grown by a sharp rock thrown by a stranger.
Though this idea would greatly increase my success rate at finding people in exposed situations, I'm going to say its not enough.
Delaying K162s for overview alone, people would simply switch to spamming scanner probes. Delaying them being seen by scanner probes would make people simply switch to combat scanners to see scout ships as they uncloak and re-cloak.
If you want to make wormholes more dangerous, I'm all for it. We have far too many wormhole billionaires, I'm one of them.
My ideas are for the overall health of wormholes space as a close community environment that is. Though this would increase my game play 10 fold when it comes to ganks, I'm agienst this change, because it doesn't do enough.
Want great player vs player content?
Give C4's another random W-space connection, this small change would increase wormhole chains and make C4 space worth living in for people outside of a hermitage.
Fozzie -- I appreciate the idea to increase great player vs player interaction. PLEASE keep it up! Community leaders and vets all know the best way to keep people playing EVE is to remove people from their shells of the isk grind and increase the need for teamwork. Co-host of Down The Pipe Podcast Read more of my ramblings on my blog. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3377
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:09:00 -
[353] - Quote
Nothing wrong with it from our perspective, sure, but Fozzie said they wanted a design which wouldn't encourage probe spam, and anything which reduces RSI and doesn't eat into the lifespan of my left-click is welcome
Besides, with good D-scanning it's hard for, say, a gang of cloaky ambush tech3s to sneak through a K162 unnoticed anyway. Only marginally less so than if you have eyes on it. So I don't really see that the inability of the "defending" side to pick it up instantly would make that big an impact on their odds of getting caught and ganked.
In any case, as things stand there's a minimum time between when the wormhole spawns and when anybody can scan it down anyway, so if you only spawn it when you've got a fleet ready to blitz through...
I don't see that it would change much, is my point. Good and disciplined corps would just adapt, find a new way to gather the same intel and all that the development effort would accomplish is forcing the players to do more clicking to get more or less the same result. And the guys who aren't smart enough to adapt like that are already getting caught with their pants down anyway.
Now if you want to propose that both the K162 AND any ships that come through it should be invisible to both probes and D-scan for, say, twenty minutes and one minute (during that 20 minutes) respectively, then that might genuinely increase the amount of uncertainty and fog-of-war in W-space. Newly-spawned K162s might in that case pose a genuine threat to the security of anything in that system regardless of how vigilant they're being. The proposal as floated without the ships also inheriting some kind of invisibility still leaves open loopholes that would cause nothing to really change. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3377
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:11:00 -
[354] - Quote
Longinius Spear wrote:Give C4's another random W-space connection, this small change would increase wormhole chains and make C4 space worth living in for people outside of a hermitage.
Now that WOULD be interesting, if C4s behaved a bit more like C2s
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Gwydion Voleur
Anarchic Exploration
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:20:00 -
[355] - Quote
I fully support delayed appearance of K162 wormholes on the discovery scanner and via probes. If it needs to be mass-triggered or number-of-ships-triggered to prevent totally stealth capital seeding, fine. The key is that there needs to be time for the solo or small gang hunter to at least have a chance to see if there is a target before there isn't one anymore.
+1 |
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
152
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:21:00 -
[356] - Quote
The problem is that pushing new K162s automatically and immediately loses the sense of the unknown in w-space, and favours PvE fleets being able to get to safety. Removing the discovery scanner is not an option, because the return of players spamming a system with probes is considered a sub-optimal gaming solution.
Delaying the appearance of K162s is interesting, but making them unscannable seems to push the balance unfairly too far towards ganks, and making them scannable but not visible on the discovery scanner returns the players to spamming probes.
How about a third option? What if the discovery scanner, for whatever reason, is slightly unreliable in w-space? Every now and again, let's say 20 minutes, plus or minus 3 minutes, a signature appears on the discovery scanner in any w-space system where a player is on-line. This signature is a meteor, space debris, or black monolith wandering in to the system. Its signature automatically appears on the discovery scanner. The signature decays after 5 minutes, plus or minus 2 minutes, automatically despawning from the discovery scanner, being just a blip and not an actual site or wormhole. The signature also despawns if any player scans the signature to 25% and identifies it as an insignificant object.
The unreliable discovery scanner thus pings new signatures in to a system with some regularity, which can be ignored or actively scanned for by players, depending on how safe they feel or paranoid they are about intrusion. The tolerance on the timings of the appearance/disappearance are necessary so that players can't simply be safe by watching the clock. That blips happen only occasionally means that new signatures can be pushed with little delay, and that constant scanning is not required. Most of the time it is harmless, sometimes it will be a new wormhole. The regularity can lead to complacency, which can give a window of opportunity.
Of course, it would make scanning a system and ensuring its consistency perhaps a little awkward, but hopefully the delay between blips and their tendency to deteriorate quickly would offset this. Besides, it would add an unknown factor back in to unknown space. |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
60
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:24:00 -
[357] - Quote
bleh, thumbs down. To me, the only time this seems like a decent mechanic is when you have a WH with no non-static connections and static connections that haven't been opened yet (the mark of a PVE WH, collapse everything and don't open new static). And while I can appreciate what you're trying to accomplish with the additional risk factor, the fact is that WHs are dangerous enough as it is for the solo/small entity and this would disproportionately affect that group. Speaking within the timeframe of that invisible K162, by most measures, the one/two people in Tengus will be exponentially easier to trap and kill than the say 1-2 carriers/2-3 dreads + support(eg. typical C3 vs. C5 ratting). Yeah, maybe someone get's a good look at your C5 bear fleet, but what are the odds that someone has enough subcaps to attack the C5 group vs. the odds that they have enough to tackle one/two t3s? Not wildly in favor of the small guys and like I said WHs are uninviting enough to the single guy/small group. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Ssieth
Tenebras Exteriores Dominatus Atrum Mortis
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:29:00 -
[358] - Quote
Penny Ibramovic wrote:Snip.
Or you could just up the amount of other sigs appearing such that they become a similar distraction? I don't know what would work (and be balanced) - ice maybe?
|
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:30:00 -
[359] - Quote
Longinius Spear wrote:I'm a wormhole hunter and ganking pve ships is my wheelhouse. I rarely participate in pve content myself and when I do, I often welcome the break in my mindless cross shooting with a swift blow to the grown by a sharp rock thrown by a stranger.
Though this idea would greatly increase my success rate at finding people in exposed situations, I'm going to say its not enough.
Delaying K162s for overview alone, people would simply switch to spamming scanner probes. Delaying them being seen by scanner probes would make people simply switch to combat scanners to see scout ships as they uncloak and re-cloak.
If you want to make wormholes more dangerous, I'm all for it. We have far too many wormhole billionaires, I'm one of them.
So basically you're saying WH PVP is more profitable than WH PVE. Which would back up my experiences at this point. This begs the question of why the PVP side needs to be buffed. Or at least buffed at the expense of PVE. WH dwellers need to be able to have some sense of security or else all the small gangs of dwellers will likely end up leaving. Part of WH life is the utter randomness of it all, sometimes I can go a day or two without seeing any WH besides my static. And then other times I log in to 7 WH's, with 3 more popping up as I'm trying to roll them all. I'm currently out of rolling battleships due to too many ******* cloakies showing up out of nowhere outside what all the information I had on them suggest was their TZ.
And people who say mining ships in W-space are doing it wrong..... The lore behind w-space ore sites would suggest that they're actually doing it RIGHT. Based on that, isn't Empire supposed to be relying on us for minerals somewhat? Not to mention you have to mine if you are in a C4 or lower and want capital ships, or else spend exhaustive amounts of time importing minerals. Personally, I enjoy the occasional mining fleet just as something different to do. And yes, I've lost a lot of mining ships that way. Oh well. I have fun ejecting, running back to the POS, then warping back at 30km and popping the mining ship AND the PVP jew who decided to try and capture it for his own use in his shiny pod.
And on a point CCP really can't do anything about.... What incentive is there for us to try and keep a stock of PVP ships when raiders ALWAYS pop the wrecks so we can't salvage anything from it to try and help pay for the next round of ships to whelp? When I first entered w-space, there seemed to be a bit of honor among PVPers. That has since appeared to vanish as the focus moved more from fun PVP and enjoyable conversations to people thinking ganking qualified as a "Good Fight" scenario. Congrats, you killed a 20 mil retriever. Good fight? What? If I didn't get my bomber back in time there wasn't any fight at all. |
Ali Aras
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
642
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:34:00 -
[360] - Quote
So having talked to several other people about this, I'm convinced of the necessity for the change (and of the shittiness of spamming probes). That said, there are still issues with it, so I want to instead echo a suggestion I heard elsewhere of a mass/time delay on incoming k162s instead of a pure time delay. That is, a k162 will not show on probes or system scanners for either x seconds pass or y grams of ship transit, where x is on the order of 120 or 180 or so, and y is on the order of 2-3 covops worth of mass. These values should be a percentage of the mass/time limits on the wormhole itself, to scale them by wormhole class and allow for some logical consistency to the mechanic (after all, the invisibility is like a little microcosm of the mother wormhole's lifetime).
A mass/time delay would resolve the following issues a time-only delay leaves unsolved:
C1-4 residents can no longer be ganked by a fleet without being able to see the fleet or their incoming signature. In C1-4 space, a cloaky t3 gang can cause serious issues for a farming fleet, particularly on the lower side of that range. Should a K162 spawn off d-scan from where the fleet is, the defenders would have literally no warning. Even on d-scan, the available time to detect a cloaky fleet's existence is short, and spamming d-scan is no more fun than spamming probes.
Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through.
It maintains the freedom from probe spamming and increased risk to the defenders (who are now alerted when the fleet is jumping in, not when the scout first warps to the hole) without adverse side effects introduced by the pure delay, and the complexity issues fit easily with the rest of wormhole space mechanics. http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog |
|
Rain6637
Team Evil
13090
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:36:00 -
[361] - Quote
Fozzie, stop trolling.
signatures are a "dumb" mechanic. they're not broken... they're just 'dumb'. wormhole gameplay depends on scan signatures and suffers as a result.
from what I can tell, you have the relationship between the two switched, and are convinced that wormholes should get it in the bum bum.
as it is, signatures show up to everyone system-wide, immediately, and this needs to change. if you fix signature mechanics in wormholes, you fix them everywhere.
...and if you don't fix signature mechanics, you can make a cool UI like sensor overlay and a Dscan slider, but signatures will remain 'dumb'.
your proposed idea of delaying signatures is bad though, just to be clear. it's merely another layer of 'dumb' placed over a deeper level of 'dumb'
fleshing out signature mechanics
some variables would allow you to balance signatures. a signature needs to do things like:
1. appear in on-board scans within a limited radius from itself, instead of automatically to everyone in system. like ships currently do on dscan. while you're at it, make the default dscan range on ships care about the size of the detected ship vs the scan res of the ship requesting information about its surroundings.
volume of the k162's detection sphere compared to the volume of spheres in which signatures can spawn and players can fly = a reduction in instant awareness that you can measure.
2. take into account the size of the k162 make some appear in a larger radius than others. scaling the intel benefit of a k162 based on the thread that could come through it sounds good, i think.
3. take into account the security level of the system (and in the case of wormholes, the class this is accomplished currently, to a degree.
4. take into account a ship's scan resolution another way to limit signature visability is take into account a ship's scan res if the ship's scan res is not high enough, it will not detect a signature without probes.
other things you can do:
5. reduce the active time on scan probes to 10 mins (or something). they never needed to live that long.
lastly, I'm disappointed to see you call scan probes a 'trick'. in my mind, tricks in EVE are things like mineral compression using guns, or self-destruct cynos.
so I wonder, what did you intend wormholes to be like, if spamming scan probes or the probe scan "show" button is a 'trick'.
wormholes are meant to be different, I get that. 'no-local' and 'no exits in overview by default' is proof that you intended for something else to happen in them, but I never thought signature watching was a 'trick'.
without local or system exits in overview, D-scan and probe scan are simply the next best thing available for situational awareness in wormholes.
tl;dr:
signature mechanics are flat and dumb President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:39:00 -
[362] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Gustava Risalo wrote:There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage. Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous.
under the new system u have 5 mins to gather perfect intel b4 they even know your there yeah totally balanced. Get rid of the stupid discovery changes and give us back the balanced system we had b4. tbh 70% of the holes I used to jump into with ppl farming there were no probes out. Most of the time probe spammers are in caps and stuck for a set time anyway. Just getting rid of discovery scan is enuf. yeah probe spam is boring to do that's why a lot of ppl just don't do it.........not to mention if I roll my hole and decide I don't like what I see on the other side I can just roll it again without ever having to worry about it being scanned down..........this is just ccp trying to say there was always a problem and it wasn't their system that broke things when in reality their system broke wh pvp. now they want to see if they mess it up even more. |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
61
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:42:00 -
[363] - Quote
yeah you really don't need probes out to see new sigs, just hit 'show' at the bottom (the button that restores hidden sigs) and if there's a new sig present the list will refresh. It's basically the exact same thing as pumping d-scan. Literally. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:45:00 -
[364] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous.
It's all about risk management. What do the the people running the sites do to manage their risk? The answer 'have more people' tends to lead in one direction.
Scanning for ships is not a particularly great alternative - by the time you hit something it'll be in warp already. |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
363
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:46:00 -
[365] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote:A mass/time delay would resolve the following issues a time-only delay leaves unsolved:
Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through. It wouldnt. Sig would show only once the caps jumped through and the residents would need to: notice it, scan it, warp to it, scout it, put fleet together, jump through <- all that before the crashing capitals jump back through the K162 and close it behind them (which takes roughly 2 seconds). I dare say its not very likely.
But you are correct that the other issues would be alleviated somewhat. It would also force people to use covops for scouting fresh holes instead of T3s, which im not sure if its good or bad...
Either way it doesnt really address more fuddamental needs and all the other (much less controversial) suggestions which I summed up in my wall of text about the need for increased interaction instead of isolation.
W-Space Realtor |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:47:00 -
[366] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote: Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through.
It maintains the freedom from probe spamming and increased risk to the defenders (who are now alerted when the fleet is jumping in, not when the scout first warps to the hole) without adverse side effects introduced by the pure delay, and the complexity issues fit easily with the rest of wormhole space mechanics.
From my experience, what this means is carebears for C5's and C6's will either instapop the hole with a dread and orca, or POS up if they don't have the resources to do so. In the end, this will just make things horrible for people who have no alternative but battleships and orcas, and leave those of us with access to capitals with little to no change as far as rolling holes...
Just a crazy thought, but the biggest thing I hate about WH PVP is trying to get my pod back into the WH when I lose.... Perhaps a quick and simple way to make fights more common would be to give pods immunity to bubbles in w-space? With limits obviously, maybe just after being ejected from the ship so they can still be caught with bubbles as they try to make it home. If they're less likely to be stuck out of their home system for a significant length of time, they'll be more likely to risk PVP imho. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
643
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:48:00 -
[367] - Quote
Deeone wrote:under the new system u have 5 mins to gather perfect intel b4 they even know your there yeah totally balanced. Get rid of the stupid discovery changes and give us back the balanced system we had b4. tbh 70% of the holes I used to jump into with ppl farming there were no probes out. Most of the time probe spammers are in caps and stuck for a set time anyway. Just getting rid of discovery scan is enuf. yeah probe spam is boring to do that's why a lot of ppl just don't do it.........not to mention if I roll my hole and decide I don't like what I see on the other side I can just roll it again without ever having to worry about it being scanned down..........this is just ccp trying to say there was always a problem and it wasn't their system that broke things when in reality their system broke wh pvp. now they want to see if they mess it up even more.
No one said 5 minutes, there is no mention of 5 minutes anywhere. Right now we are talking about the delay in general, the details of the duration are not even being addressed. I think 2 minutes or less is still good enough of a change.
|
na'Vi Ronuken
Louis Nothing And Nobody
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:51:00 -
[368] - Quote
This is such a bad idea because it gives such a huge advantage to the attackers. Imagine if a blackops drop in Kspace was undetectable until they were ongrid with you (and you can't see cyno alts coming in because no local) and you CANT leave for ~5 mins AFTER you detact the blackops drop because of triage/siege.
The current state of affairs for farmers in WH might be a bit strong - but its no worse than the hundreds of billions Nullsec rakes in from their renter empires. CCP should spend time making NS more interesting - not messing with WHs which is currently far less broken than Low/High/Null sec. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1072
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:52:00 -
[369] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:No one said 5 minutes, there is no mention of 5 minutes anywhere. Right now we are talking about the delay in general, the details of the duration are not even being addressed. I think 2 minutes or less is still good enough of a change.
If by "no one," you mean "Two Step," then yes. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:52:00 -
[370] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Nothing wrong with it from our perspective, sure, but Fozzie said they wanted a design which wouldn't encourage probe spam, and anything which reduces RSI and doesn't eat into the lifespan of my left-click is welcome
Besides, with good D-scanning it's hard for, say, a gang of cloaky ambush tech3s to sneak through a K162 unnoticed anyway. Only marginally less so than if you have eyes on it. So I don't really see that the inability of the "defending" side to pick it up instantly would make that big an impact on their odds of getting caught and ganked.
In any case, as things stand there's a minimum time between when the wormhole spawns and when anybody can scan it down anyway, so if you only spawn it when you've got a fleet ready to blitz through...
I don't see that it would change much, is my point. Good and disciplined corps would just adapt, find a new way to gather the same intel and all that the development effort would accomplish is forcing the players to do more clicking to get more or less the same result. And the guys who aren't smart enough to adapt like that are already getting caught with their pants down anyway.
Now if you want to propose that both the K162 AND any ships that come through it should be invisible to both probes and D-scan for, say, twenty minutes and one minute (during that 20 minutes) respectively, then that might genuinely increase the amount of uncertainty and fog-of-war in W-space. Newly-spawned K162s might in that case pose a genuine threat to the security of anything in that system regardless of how vigilant they're being. The proposal as floated without the ships also inheriting some kind of invisibility still leaves open loopholes that would cause nothing to really change.
so instead of having probes in space I should just have to have an alt in d scan range of a randomly spawning wh........that makes a lot of sense.......jesus I guess ppl would just stop using large systems.........and you ppl do realize that a new k162 is already wont show up till it gets jumped thru the first time right??? If u roll a brand new hole u have plenty of time b4 it opens on the other side if no one jumps thru........ |
|
Legion40k
ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Sex Panther.
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:53:00 -
[371] - Quote
so..if I'm rolling my static and end up opening into a larger entity i can't fight I'd be able to..roll the static
they wouldn't even know i was there, or be able to do anything before im crashing the hole
rolling shouldn't be risk free.. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:54:00 -
[372] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Deeone wrote:under the new system u have 5 mins to gather perfect intel b4 they even know your there yeah totally balanced. Get rid of the stupid discovery changes and give us back the balanced system we had b4. tbh 70% of the holes I used to jump into with ppl farming there were no probes out. Most of the time probe spammers are in caps and stuck for a set time anyway. Just getting rid of discovery scan is enuf. yeah probe spam is boring to do that's why a lot of ppl just don't do it.........not to mention if I roll my hole and decide I don't like what I see on the other side I can just roll it again without ever having to worry about it being scanned down..........this is just ccp trying to say there was always a problem and it wasn't their system that broke things when in reality their system broke wh pvp. now they want to see if they mess it up even more. No one said 5 minutes, there is no mention of 5 minutes anywhere. Right now we are talking about the delay in general, the details of the duration are not even being addressed. I think 2 minutes or less is still good enough of a change.
No one? several people have suggested 5 minutes plus or minus two minutes. That's one of the most common numbers I've seen thrown around in this thread. |
SAMA SANCHAN
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:56:00 -
[373] - Quote
I agree with this potential change and I'll tell you why in a moment.
I'm a c5 dweller that depends on the isk that I make running sites with my Corp to fund my pvp in all arenas eve has to offer. I understand the lucrative aspects of wormhole life exist because of the significant amount of risk involved. And, I think that this is what Fozzie is trying to get at... due to the current trends if wormholers the risk is being averted through careful scouting. But, Fozzie asks us now if these methods are too secure.
The darkness of the woods have been feared so long that we have a natural fear of them in life because our predators had the advantage.
This change might scare off the risk averse but for those who welcome the challenge; I say you belong in this space.
If it were up to me I would introduce this change carefully. With c1 k162's having different attributes than those in a c6. You can even change the wormhole exit names for varying classes. All im saying is c1 dwellers didnt sign up for the same risk as those in ac6. People in a c6 or c5 should be feeling the stress and placing the scouts at each set of planets.
Like i said this would scare off a bunch of folk from wh space. So prices would change and having the extra manpower for scouting might be feasible, having a few falcons cloaked for security, etc. This is what I feel wh space should be like. Real danger.
that's my 10
cheers |
na'Vi Ronuken
Louis Nothing And Nobody
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:57:00 -
[374] - Quote
[/quote]
Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous. [/quote]
Yo - if they had dreads logged off in the system it would be on the site with them to make the site running faster. so YES you can say with a high degree of certainty how many caps they have and how many people they got. |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
158
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 16:57:00 -
[375] - Quote
+1
I am in favor more randomization and anything that increases risk in wormholes.
If I have 5-6 minutes of stealth of look around with a buzzard and decide if i want to prep a cap trap or cloaky bubbler or whatnot, I am all in favor.
Also,
DELAY IN LOCAL WHEN ENTERING NULLSEC FROM WORMHOLES - im sick and tired of losing carrier and botter kills. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1272
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:07:00 -
[376] - Quote
Plenty of people died running pve sites BEFORE the discovery scanner change. I don't understand the "fix what's not broken" mentality. No trolling please |
Hedge Fox
Leverage Investments
42
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:10:00 -
[377] - Quote
CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. |
Julius Caeserr
Slightly Darker Black Ops Divide By Zero Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:12:00 -
[378] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival. -Fozzie
You're kidding right? As someone who lives in a WH on and off (C2) I can tell you there is more than enough of a sense of "real danger", and nothing about living in a WH is safe. If anything there is too much real danger. Now that cosmic signatures do not need to be scanned down in order to warp to them (thanks for that, by the way...) those of us living in WHs get little to no notice when someone warps in on us and ruins our day. We already are having to spam D-scan to try to get the couple seconds of notice that helps us stay alive, and you want to make it easier for the people trying to find and kill us? I don't always want to PvP guys. Sometimes I want to be able to run the content you've done a good job of creating for us inside the WH. Otherwise, why don't you just remove all the signature content and make it a pure PVP realm. You keep making changes forcing those of us that live there to go that direction anyway.
-1 |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
29
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:13:00 -
[379] - Quote
I don't get that either, Bane.
Why not fix the real issue: C5 farmers! Change these cap escalations that you can't run em with only 5 ppl. !!! |
Ravcharas
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
290
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:14:00 -
[380] - Quote
Hedge Fox wrote:CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. How is this an isk sink? |
|
Alundil
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
436
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:25:00 -
[381] - Quote
na'Vi Ronuken wrote: Yo - if they had dreads logged off in the system it would be on the site with them to make the site running faster. so YES you can say with a high degree of certainty how many caps they have and how many people they got.
This is very very wrong. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
396
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:28:00 -
[382] - Quote
mkint wrote:lol, first you add sensor overlay, then you make it mandatory because 90% of your players would shut it off altogether and that doesn't look good on a resume, and now you're realizing it's causing problems? Who'da thunk.
I'm not a WH dweller, but it makes sense to me to have no sensor overlay at all outside of empire space or maybe even have it highsec-only, especially in w-space. It removes the exploration part of exploration.
From a logical point of view, a wormhole is a wormhole. Why should it make a difference in what end it's being probed out? It's already leaning in favor of whoever's on the other side because they'll already be at 0m to the wormhole and the k162 side would still need to be probed out. The aggressors already have a time advantage.
edit: and isn't the no local supposed to be the make-it-easy-for-bored-nullbear-aggressors factor?
As someone who was a WH dweller - THIS right here. What you are describing is a symptom of a problem YOU guys created with over-reaching probe and overview changes, and are now trying to swim upstream to "fix" a problem that isn't really even there (what is the real game-breaking problem here exactly?). It's madness.
Why introduce some other artificial timer for only ONE side of the wormhole. I hate to call ideas terrible, but this is. Entering entity already has the advantage which has been proven by countless killmails.
Solution - none needed, leave it alone... or fix the ROOT cause of these symptoms. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
61
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:33:00 -
[383] - Quote
SAMA SANCHAN wrote: All im saying is c1 dwellers didnt sign up for the same risk as those in a c6. People in a c6 or c5 should be feeling the stress and placing the scouts at each set of planets.
this dude strikes an interesting point; there's a general sense that say, a c2 is 'safer' than the c6 when in fact they have a lot of identical mechanics and are ~basically~ at the same level of dangerous, using unbonused stars in this train of thought (cause there sure are enough of them). The wormholes operate mostly in the same way, just with mass restrictions. Sites, statics, planets, stars, no local, all of these things/concepts operate and function in the same way. The only thing that scales with the Class is difficulty of PVE sites. Inherently, does that mean the reason the C6 is "dangerous" in the first place is because you most likely have a larger, more organized, better equipped group of people living in that C6 compared to the C2? Kind of, I think. The small guys still face an unproportional amount of risk existing in WH space. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Alisyana
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
113
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:43:00 -
[384] - Quote
I'll say it again:
1. Remove d-scan. 2. Remove scan overlay.
Use probes to find ships, sigs, etc.
I'll explain this a bit. All I see is incessant whining about how there's no good fights, everyone bluebells, there no conflict driver, and the only real PVP is straight up ganks. It was that way 4 years ago, it's the same now. The straight up gank isn't pvp - it's the furthest thing from it, no different from ganking a cyno ship on a station, or a hauler in lowsec.
It's no fun when you know you're guaranteed to win, unless your self esteem is so low you need that repeated jolt to tell yourself how elite you are. So if you want to increase the chances of a "random" meeting of ships, get rid of the tools they use every day to decide "not" to engage. How many fights are passed on, because you don't have enough in fleet, or don't think you can take on what you see on d-scan? So make it harder, and more intensive to find out. Sure, display what's on scan with combat probes, but now you have some work to do.
I spend 2+ years with TL, and most of the fights we had were straight up ganks. Find some Tengu's running a C4, watch them while we gather up 15-20 guys (because no one wants to get left out, right?), and **** them. Meh. Not a lot of fun.
Roam around with a 20-man fleet, run into a 10-man fleet, they run and reship into a 40-man fleet, and come back. Do you fight? Probably not. The issue is because you know what they have, you won't fight unless you think you can win. And when everyone escalates - no one wins. If you can't d-scan, you either fight or flee - you still have those choices, but how you base those decisions is now on how well you can evaluate a combat scan, and how well you know your targets.
By point of contrast to show how "safe" things are, w-space lacks the one thing that makes the null fleets uncertain, no matter what the numbers: A Cyno. You can have a 200-man fleet sieging an ihub, but in the blink of an eye a cyno can change that dynamic and now you are outnumbered, out positioned, and outgunned. W-space doesn't have that, so you roll around looking for the gank you know you can win, and the only thing that can tip that balance is how many people they can log on to fight you with before you kill off what you have locked down. It's relative safety, for both sides. No, I'm not advocating cyno's in w-space, but you need to remove the "certainty" and re-institute the "unknown" and I think every one would have more fun.
You want scary, unknown, dangerous space? Then push for it. Definition of "SD" (Self Destruct) = "It's like running up to someone to kick them in the balls, they see you and proceed to kick themselves in the balls, and then laugh at you for denying someone a chance to kick them in the balls." -á- Celery Man |
SKINE DMZ
Stay Frosty.
339
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:54:00 -
[385] - Quote
Get rid of sensor overlay but if I'm scanning I want the accurate results, no delay there that is a shabby fix/adjustment. I disagree |
r Cubed
The Night Crew The Night Crew Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 17:59:00 -
[386] - Quote
If you want to add delay, add it across the board(d-scan, discovery scan, distance from probes to signature).... perhaps using the speed of light as a reference, at-least this would make sense. Down side, you'd wait over an hour to know that somethings changed at the edge of your d-scan range. ^^^But you'll prob never hear the end of complaints from that, so more realistically \/ \/ \/
Ax the discovery scanners updating signatures, we have probes for a reason o.0 Leave the rest of it alone, simple, problem solved
When a K162 spawns it is a Signature, probes detect signatures. If it's not probable it doesn't exist yet. |
Schwa Nuts
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:10:00 -
[387] - Quote
Two step wrote:No, the hilarious part is the nullsec farmers coming out and complaining about losing ships to logoff gangs.
You don't know anything about me and are making bad assumptions based off my corp tag. I am not complaining, just stating fact to counter to the argument that it is "risk-free farming."
Additionally, while I have great respect for the big w-space pvp alliances, it is quite obvious that such a change benefits them more than anyone else. Those that suggest this change would lower w-space population are right. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
424
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:20:00 -
[388] - Quote
Alisyana wrote:Wormhole........ A Cyno.
No.
And for the first time ever I don't have to explain why :-P
Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Hedge Fox
Leverage Investments
43
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:23:00 -
[389] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:Hedge Fox wrote:CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. How is this an isk sink?
When ships blow up, ISK vanishes in varying quantities. Some may get looted or salvaged, but a percentage of it is removed from circulation entirely. Thus, ISK Sink.
Enabling more mechanics making defensive strategies less effective, would in affect, indirectly consequent in more ships lost, thus adding to the ISK sinks.
Much like making interceptors immune to bubbles and increasing warp speeds for them, makes them prime hunters in 0.0 to catch ratters. More death, more money for CCP. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
424
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:27:00 -
[390] - Quote
Schwa Nuts wrote:Two step wrote:No, the hilarious part is the nullsec farmers coming out and complaining about losing ships to logoff gangs. You don't know anything about me and are making bad assumptions based off my corp tag. I am not complaining, just stating fact to counter to the argument that it is "risk-free farming." Additionally, while I have great respect for the big w-space pvp alliances, it is quite obvious that such a change benefits them more than anyone else. Those that suggest this change would lower w-space population are right.
I'm inclined to agree. This is a power shift in the wrong way. It should not be (roll hole, find target, gank pve wimp with gang, roll hole, find target, gank...).
This is blowing the whole concept of a roam if all you do is sit and roll holes (it ain't exploration, you just turn wormhole space into the WOW Dungeon Group Finder).
If you want combat, you have to make wormhole space itself have a value. At that point, people will want to TAKE YOUR WORMHOLE away. It sucks to say that what wormhole space needs is a structure grind, but it does, but that Structure Grind has to provide an actual point and/or value (right now, the only reason to grind pos's is to evict people). This is a completely different topic though.
We want combat and a purpose. Wormholes need a value, once it has that, there is no real need to worry about signature delays, auto cloaking holes, because people will come in to fight or to cause fights.
Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
|
Ravcharas
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
290
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:42:00 -
[391] - Quote
Hedge Fox wrote:Ravcharas wrote:Hedge Fox wrote:CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. How is this an isk sink? When ships blow up, ISK vanishes in varying quantities. Some may get looted or salvaged, but a percentage of it is removed from circulation entirely. Thus, ISK Sink. Enabling more mechanics making defensive strategies less effective, would in affect, indirectly consequent in more ships lost, thus adding to the ISK sinks. Much like making interceptors immune to bubbles and increasing warp speeds for them, makes them prime hunters in 0.0 to catch ratters. More death, more money for CCP. Ships being blown up are not an isk sink. They are isk faucets, because of insurance payouts. |
Von Keigai
33
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:45:00 -
[392] - Quote
SambaSol wrote:the biggest thing I hate about WH PVP is trying to get my pod back into the WH when I lose... Yes. And they should fix it by giving us a medical clone bay thingie to put on POSes. But that's another conversation. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
34
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:46:00 -
[393] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote: I'm inclined to agree. This is a power shift in the wrong way. It should not be (roll hole, find target, gank pve wimp with gang, roll hole, find target, gank...).
This.
This is what will happen should a delay be implemented.
I'm all for PvP, small scale is the way I roll. But I find the thrill of the chase quite a big part of the whole experience. SNeaking in, probing ships down, waiting for the right opportunity... It's a game withing the game.
A delay of sigs will just mean the hunter will have to hurry. I see little fun in that.
Also, why should higher classes have higher delays, should delays be implemented? Does it take longer to probe/scan down capitals? Does it take longer to jump into a carrier than a HAC? Or is it just to be nice to the *noobs' in the lower class holes?
Do you guys do realize that class of hole you live in is more a choice of where you want to liver rather than living in as high of a class you can? I've seen big alliances with over ten POS in a class 2. There are class 1's with several capitals in them. |
Tyrant Scorn
117
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 18:57:00 -
[394] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote:So having talked to several other people about this, I'm convinced of the necessity for the change (and of the shittiness of spamming probes). That said, there are still issues with it, so I want to instead echo a suggestion I heard elsewhere of a mass/time delay on incoming k162s instead of a pure time delay. That is, a k162 will not show on probes or system scanners for either x seconds pass or y grams of ship transit, where x is on the order of 120 or 180 or so, and y is on the order of 2-3 covops worth of mass. These values should be a percentage of the mass/time limits on the wormhole itself, to scale them by wormhole class and allow for some logical consistency to the mechanic (after all, the invisibility is like a little microcosm of the mother wormhole's lifetime).
A mass/time delay would resolve the following issues a time-only delay leaves unsolved:
C1-4 residents can no longer be ganked by a fleet without being able to see the fleet or their incoming signature. In C1-4 space, a cloaky t3 gang can cause serious issues for a farming fleet, particularly on the lower side of that range. Should a K162 spawn off d-scan from where the fleet is, the defenders would have literally no warning. Even on d-scan, the available time to detect a cloaky fleet's existence is short, and spamming d-scan is no more fun than spamming probes.
Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through.
It maintains the freedom from probe spamming and increased risk to the defenders (who are now alerted when the fleet is jumping in, not when the scout first warps to the hole) without adverse side effects introduced by the pure delay, and the complexity issues fit easily with the rest of wormhole space mechanics.
I am sorry Ali but I don't know who you talked to but I seriously doubt you've seriously considered all options. The change is going to be terrible and only favors PvP. if CCP only wants to favor PvP, they should never have introduced PvE in wormholes in the first place but the fact is that it's there in large bulks.
I am sorely disappointed by the post you just made...
Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's Infinite Anarchy
126
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:10:00 -
[395] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:
I am sorely disappointed by the post you just made...
Drama much?
AdW
|
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
865
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:14:00 -
[396] - Quote
1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual. 2. Add J-space ESS with these features: - Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now. - Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). - Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers. - Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.
This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags). Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
456
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:29:00 -
[397] - Quote
Zappity wrote:1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual. 2. Add J-space ESS with these features: - Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now. - Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place. - Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers. - Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.
This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags).
Then I assume it also warp scrams whoever is near it, requires time to access, and broadcasts the identity of everyone who approaches it? |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
865
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:33:00 -
[398] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Zappity wrote:1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual. 2. Add J-space ESS with these features: - Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now. - Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place. - Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers. - Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.
This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags). Then I assume it also warp scrams whoever is near it, requires time to access, and broadcasts the identity of everyone who approaches it? You can work out the details. :) I don't do PvE but I do hate clicks enormously. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
335
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:33:00 -
[399] - Quote
Zappity wrote:1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual. 2. Add J-space ESS with these features: - Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now. - Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place. - Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers. - Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.
This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags).
I wish they would introduce a way to -1 people on these forums for posts like this. Any suggestion of bringing the ESS to wormholes (after they flopped mightily except to boost ratting income in null) is stupid from a gameplay standpoint and a lore standpoint (why would ANYBODY pay for tags for killing sleepers? It makes no sense) |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:42:00 -
[400] - Quote
On of the first things i did when joining a pvp wormhole alliance was to sign up the the probers class. First we learned how to use d-scan to find someone of the alliance at a planet. Then we learned how to find a pos. At that time we were in a c5 with static c3.(no mapping tools existed yet, no corp bookmarks, and no not this alliance i am in now) After that the alliance rolled the static hole and told me and an other newbie to go and scan the static. After a few hole we finaly got a hit on sleepers wrecks. Trying to find the combat site with d-scan was no easy for someone who just found it. My class mate found them, while i found one of the residents pos. While we both just used d-scan. This took at least 5-10 minutes . After this the alliance dictor was warped to the site after the other classmates slowboted to them in his covert ops frig. We caught some of them, while i was seeing them reship at a pos to counter attack, i relayed the info. Thanks to the info we brought in some form of support to break their reinforcement fleet. The prober class was a succes never seen before in the alliance!
Today this story is not possible. The new sig spawns instantly, the hostiles instantly warp out and nothing happens. Even with capitals still in siege/triage you have an average of 2.5 minutes to find a site, warp to it, get into position to bring in a dictor/hic and pray that the warps are short or the targets get away. A interceptor can't handle sleepers so we can't use that. A cloaky T3 is the only option, but they lock so slow... . Even the best scanners have trouble getting into position in that small timeframe. Today is a farmers paradise. I remember the last time we went on an expedition we didn't even saw an enemy fleet because there was nothing there for them to kill.... . So the only places to get people now is an eviction, on a wormhole or a pi-ship, less targets for everyone. While i would love something like an ess to be able to get fights, they should first fix the ess. Because thanks to some clever use of site and npc spawn mechanics the ess is very broken now. It does not generate fights because of that. So all carot and no stick.
Besides gankes can go wrong check these out : http://disavowed.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=22564540 https://zkillboard.com/related/31001971/201403231700/
So what would be the solution ? I see 2 options:
1) in w-space sigs don't appear on the overview+overlay unless you scanned them(d-scan and/or probes).
2) if you still want a delay, make it so that scanning with probes also show the delayed ones. The principle should be that offensive and defensive scanning should be rewarded. The offensive ones get a delay for the ones not paying attention. The defensive ones see it before the delay is over. all is in balance that way
Also i wouldn't mind if ore sites become a scannable again. Maybe they should be so strong that you can see it is a ore site but just can't warp to it unless scanned. That way new players still see o, there are ore sites, but they need to get probes. Wich is always a good idea in w-space... . |
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2092
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:44:00 -
[401] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote:So having talked to several other people about this, I'm convinced of the necessity for the change (and of the shittiness of spamming probes). That said, there are still issues with it, so I want to instead echo a suggestion I heard elsewhere of a mass/time delay on incoming k162s instead of a pure time delay. That is, a k162 will not show on probes or system scanners for either x seconds pass or y grams of ship transit, where x is on the order of 120 or 180 or so, and y is on the order of 2-3 covops worth of mass. These values should be a percentage of the mass/time limits on the wormhole itself, to scale them by wormhole class and allow for some logical consistency to the mechanic (after all, the invisibility is like a little microcosm of the mother wormhole's lifetime).
A mass/time delay would resolve the following issues a time-only delay leaves unsolved:
C1-4 residents can no longer be ganked by a fleet without being able to see the fleet or their incoming signature. In C1-4 space, a cloaky t3 gang can cause serious issues for a farming fleet, particularly on the lower side of that range. Should a K162 spawn off d-scan from where the fleet is, the defenders would have literally no warning. Even on d-scan, the available time to detect a cloaky fleet's existence is short, and spamming d-scan is no more fun than spamming probes.
Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through.
It maintains the freedom from probe spamming and increased risk to the defenders (who are now alerted when the fleet is jumping in, not when the scout first warps to the hole) without adverse side effects introduced by the pure delay, and the complexity issues fit easily with the rest of wormhole space mechanics.
OMG what is it with CSM's chiming in with bad ideas. Where to even begin.
1. Spamming probes and/or dscan is part of WH life. The whole concept of moving away from this mechanic (aka discovery scanner) is what got us into this mess and created this thread. If I want to farm isk without needing to spam probes or dscan I'd go farm anoms in 0.0.
2. Your concept does not resolve the above issues at all.
a. Whether the k162 sig shows up after just a set time or when the fleet jumps through makes little difference. The attacker still has plenty of time to send thru a covert ops (without triggering the sig) and get a warpin. The only thing that changes in your scenario is that the sig will show up at the same time the ships are in warp to the site runners. And keep in mind the discovery scanner only scans once per minute so there is enough of a delay that the attackers may still land on grid before the sig actually shows up.
b. Since the "carebears" dont trigger the sig with the covert ops jumping thru they have time to get their hole rolling ships read. It is very easy to then jump ships through quickly and the hole gets rolled before the sig is scanned down.
Who said we want or need the freedom from probe spamming or dscanning? Heck ya know sometimes I'm annoyed living out of a POS so why don't you throw stations in WH systems while you are at it. It would make about as much sense.
If you are running again you are at least down one vote. |
Einar Matveinen
Knights who say N1 TAXU
21
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:45:00 -
[402] - Quote
I had lived in w-space for a year, i think the wandering w-space capsuleer idea is utopic: players live in w-space systems in POSes, there they store their ships, their loot, make reactions, refine ore and build things. They're wormholers because they have chosen that, maybe because they hate alliance warfare or maybe because they want build tech 3 stuff. Being a wormholer and living in w-space need a bigger ISK investment and have more risk than living in the typical null sec alliance with dozen outpost, jump bridges and intel channels. I don't know exactly why is it necessary charging wormholers with more difficulties instead of helping them with a POS revamp for example. |
Swidgen
Republic University Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:46:00 -
[403] - Quote
Can we get some confirmation from the devs that K162s spawn now only when a player initiates warp to the WH on the other side of said K162? Seems to me we should know how it works now before being asked to comment on proposed changes.
I might have missed it upthread, but it has long been speculated by players that a K162 doesn't spawn until someone warps to the other side, but afaik it has never been confirmed that that's how it works. Over the last few years there were significant discussion and argument threads about this mechanic. We players think we finally figured it out, but some confirmation from CCP would be nice here. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2092
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:46:00 -
[404] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:On of the first things i did when joining a pvp wormhole alliance was to sign up the the probers class. First we learned how to use d-scan to find someone of the alliance at a planet. Then we learned how to find a pos. At that time we were in a c5 with static c3.(no mapping tools existed yet, no corp bookmarks, and no not this alliance i am in now) After that the alliance rolled the static hole and told me and an other newbie to go and scan the static. After a few hole we finaly got a hit on sleepers wrecks. Trying to find the combat site with d-scan was no easy for someone who just found it. My class mate found them, while i found one of the residents pos. While we both just used d-scan. This took at least 5-10 minutes . After this the alliance dictor was warped to the site after the other classmates slowboted to them in his covert ops frig. We caught some of them, while i was seeing them reship at a pos to counter attack, i relayed the info. Thanks to the info we brought in some form of support to break their reinforcement fleet. The prober class was a succes never seen before in the alliance!
Hate to break it to you, but this wasn't possible before the overlay scanner either unless the farmers were being lazy/stupid.
|
Qalix
Long Jump.
203
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:55:00 -
[405] - Quote
Not to whinge too much, since I have no opinion on the point of discussion, but...
This thread really ought to be in Features and Ideas. You guys have been putting all the "discussion of the future" threads there and that's where everyone goes now. I know it makes some sense to put it here because of the topic, but if that's the logic being used, why isn't the logic applied in the other subforums? Had this thread not been posted to EN24, I would never have known it existed. It's very confusing when you guys use inconsistent methodologies.
/Whine concluded |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
865
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:56:00 -
[406] - Quote
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:Zappity wrote:1. Remove Discovery Scanner automagical sig pop-up and let probes pick up as usual. 2. Add J-space ESS with these features: - Provides automagical sig pop-up exactly as now. - Does not work if a ship is within x km radius (so no sitting on it). Or just leave bubble in place. - Creates some tags for [insert faction, CONCORD, whatever] from Sleepers. - Expensive and limited life span. Get rid of upgrade concept so it is a single use deployable.
This would allow ratters to avoid the clicks of probe/dscan spam, provide opportunity for combat and traps on the deployable, and reward scouting activity (get the tags). I wish they would introduce a way to -1 people on these forums for posts like this. Any suggestion of bringing the ESS to wormholes (after they flopped mightily except to boost ratting income in null) is stupid from a gameplay standpoint and a lore standpoint (why would ANYBODY pay for tags for killing sleepers? It makes no sense) I'll admit that I don't really care about lore. The rest of your post is pointless arm waving with no actual reasoning. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
148
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 19:59:00 -
[407] - Quote
Swidgen wrote:I might have missed it upthread, but it has long been speculated by players that a K162 doesn't spawn until someone warps to the other side, but afaik it has never been confirmed that that's how it works. Over the last few years there were significant discussion and argument threads about this mechanic. We players think we finally figured it out, but some confirmation from CCP would be nice here. As to my findings, it's like you say. Speculated but not outright confirmed. The closest thing next to a confirmation just recently came from CCP Goliath in this thread. But "the [very noticeable] absence of K162 wormholes" lacks the reason why they're absent.
EVE Infolinks -+-áOld and new-áPortraits |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1279
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:04:00 -
[408] - Quote
Qalix wrote:Not to whinge too much, since I have no opinion on the point of discussion, but...
This thread really ought to be in Features and Ideas. You guys have been putting all the "discussion of the future" threads there and that's where everyone goes now. I know it makes some sense to put it here because of the topic, but if that's the logic being used, why isn't the logic applied in the other subforums? Had this thread not been posted to EN24, I would never have known it existed. It's very confusing when you guys use inconsistent methodologies.
/Whine concluded
They/you should just make a post in that area of the forums, with a link to here.
No trolling please |
Vanessa Serenity
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:04:00 -
[409] - Quote
I approve if the change will apply to k-space local aswell. There is way too little risk farming in null. Just dock whenever someone enters local. Where is the risk vs. reward in that? |
Alundil
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
437
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:10:00 -
[410] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:Hedge Fox wrote:Ravcharas wrote:Hedge Fox wrote:CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. How is this an isk sink? When ships blow up, ISK vanishes in varying quantities. Some may get looted or salvaged, but a percentage of it is removed from circulation entirely. Thus, ISK Sink. Enabling more mechanics making defensive strategies less effective, would in affect, indirectly consequent in more ships lost, thus adding to the ISK sinks. Much like making interceptors immune to bubbles and increasing warp speeds for them, makes them prime hunters in 0.0 to catch ratters. More death, more money for CCP. Ships being blown up are not an isk sink. They are isk faucets, because of insurance payouts. I don't know what the breakdown is (CCP would though) on the percentage of ships that asplode with insurance or sans insurance.
But I am willing to go out on a ledge and estimate that the number of T2 & T3 hulls that go pop is probably within 15% or so of the number of T1 ships that go pop. Why is this relevant....because T2 and T3 hulls get nearly nothing from insurance. Furthermore, from an ISK efficiency standpoint, it doesn't make any financial sense at all for a pilot to pay for insurance on a hull unless he/she knows it'll asplode in the 3 months the policy is active. Therefore most of the hulls that are in wh space never receive insurance past the initial purchase (if even that).
This doesn't even take into account the 50% (avg) module loss on every destroyed hull, regardless of insurance.
Furthermore, with the mineral re-balance that took place a few months back, the insurance rates (that are based on mineral values, I'll remind you) are badly out of whack even if one wanted to purchase insurance.
Case in point: Dominix Insurance
So....still an ISK sink.....
Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
|
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:10:00 -
[411] - Quote
It's good that CCP is thinking about wormhole content to make it more interesting
I was thinking, maybe we can look at some options that assist in our ability to fight out in null so instead of it being WH vs WH
Giving us an added edge in Null would make PVP more appealing to WH PVP cops in line with the objective of the tweaks proposed by CCP in this thread
Maybe we can have some kind of WH cyno that when 3 different corps while all in the same fleet activated them in their own wormholes it would open a new null connection to the same null region from each of those wormholes (but not perhaps not to the same null system) I expect there would need to be a re-activiation delay on the order of a day or so for obvious reasons
Or if you spend more than a day in wh-space your ship's communications systems need to recalibrate when entering k-space and you dont show up in local chat for 30 seconds when you enter into k-space (perhaps this effect can last for a handful of jumps as long as the 30 second timer doesnt expire before jumping) Ships entering k-space in this way would still be visible on dscan and from combat probes of course
I dunno, im just throwing ideas out here... It doesnt really matter... if CCP feels a delay for k162's to be scanable is desired, then thats just something we'll need to incorporate into our playstyles
We'll see what happens
|
Viaana
Boris Johnson's Love Children Awakened.
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:11:00 -
[412] - Quote
Vanessa Serenity wrote:I approve if the change will apply to k-space local aswell. There is way too little risk farming in null. Just dock whenever someone enters local. Where is the risk vs. reward in that?
I completely agree, i honestly can't see how you can say that a signature spawn offers too much warning when doing "anything" in a wormhole, be it farming or looking for pvp. And then leave all of k-space with a local list which informs you the INSTANT a person enters the system.
I am more than happy to see this change implemented, but only if local is delayed by the same amount. As we have no local in j-space this will be effectively the same change. To say one makes a system too safe, while having an even easier warning in lowsec, and nullsec is pathetic. Anyone who suggests otherwise is merely looking after their own interests. |
Frothgar
V0LTA Triumvirate.
88
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:13:00 -
[413] - Quote
I've lived almost exclusively in W space since its introduction and had multiple incarnations over the years.
True story, one of the catalysts for VoC was after Aquila attacked my "Carebear Class" running Anoms in what became Volta's WH. The experience led to a conversation on Aquila's comms and me moving in to Aquila's WH, the group grew in size and a year later VoC was formed.
This encounter would likely have never taken place if we knew they were there and coming, and the impromptu "OH ****!!!" nature of the encounter and subsequent escalations was tremendously enjoyable and one of the most significant events in my time playing Eve.
I'm all for more encounters between players and support the proposed change.
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2092
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:13:00 -
[414] - Quote
Honestly I can't figure out how this is still going on.
CCP, want a guaranteed way to gain 90% minimum approval for everyone who loves and lives in Wormhole space?
TURN OFF THE DISCOVERY SCANNER.
Bam, problem solved.
|
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1279
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:14:00 -
[415] - Quote
Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
Maybe we can have some kind of WH cyno..
Because your name is Faxanadu (which was an awesome NES game) I will spare you the bad mouth. However, I find it fair to warn you that any ideas of cynos and wh space are met with great hostility. Good luck! No trolling please |
Alundil
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
438
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:18:00 -
[416] - Quote
And just because it's out there
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform
I didn't create the poll. Someone else did. And someone's pretty mad already so vOv EVE being EVE. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2093
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:19:00 -
[417] - Quote
Frothgar wrote:I've lived almost exclusively in W space since its introduction and had multiple incarnations over the years.
True story, one of the catalysts for VoC was after Aquila attacked my "Carebear Class" running Anoms in what became Volta's WH. The experience led to a conversation on Aquila's comms and me moving in to Aquila's WH, the group grew in size and a year later VoC was formed.
This encounter would likely have never taken place if we knew they were there and coming, and the impromptu "OH ****!!!" nature of the encounter and subsequent escalations was tremendously enjoyable and one of the most significant events in my time playing Eve.
I'm all for more encounters between players and support the proposed change.
So I'm curious. you claim essentially that this fight would not have occurred under the new system with the disovery scanner. It did however happen basically with everything else the same sans discovery scanner.
So why then do you think it is necessary to not only roll back to the environment that allowed your story to take place, but to push the pendulum further and potentially cause more harm than good? |
Zukan
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:19:00 -
[418] - Quote
Imo a total block on an early warning sign makes it *too* difficult. Many WH dwellers enjoy the PvP aspect, but all of them have to fund their wh life.
Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.
edit: wrong char. Obv. don't do WHs on RvB char. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
643
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:21:00 -
[419] - Quote
na'Vi Ronuken wrote:
Yo - if they had dreads logged off in the system it would be on the site with them to make the site running faster. so YES you can say with a high degree of certainty how many caps they have and how many people they got.
Yo, not every person in corp/alliance is in need of ISK or interested in running sites for extended period of time. A group can have 5/6 pilots doing sites and 10 others who are online but are not participating. Not to mention that many groups use jabber/slack to ping their offline membership. |
Einar Matveinen
Knights who say N1 TAXU
21
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:26:00 -
[420] - Quote
Zukan wrote: Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.
+1 to this post, you're right, delayed beacons in w-space, delayed local in null-space, why null sec ratters may rat in a relatively safe environment and w-space players not. |
|
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:27:00 -
[421] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote: Hate to break it to you, but this wasn't possible before the overlay scanner either unless the farmers were being lazy/stupid.
I know, but the point was the with the current instant spawn of the sigs in overview and probe scanner view without probing you don't have any people in eve so lazy/stupid any more. They are gone extinct and so is a lot of player interaction. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
99
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:29:00 -
[422] - Quote
Einar Matveinen wrote:Zukan wrote: Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.
+1 to this post, you're right, delayed beacons in w-space, delayed local in null-space, why null sec ratters may rat in a relatively safe environment and w-space players not. Exactly a good example why local should be removed from null sec! |
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:31:00 -
[423] - Quote
Something else I'd like to comment on
To the folks who would like to open up options to increase the ease of ganking other WH bros' PVE activity...
We're all out in WH space for the same reasons... we're willing to accept the risk, and invest the required effort and vigilance to make living there viable. That means watching Dscan and probing.
If you want to add more eggs for us to juggle to make living in WH harder, thats fine but at least give us the option to exert that added vigilance. The point i think is to be able to prey on people who leave themselves open to it.
Thats why i think the nullbears should be the real targets, because theyre traditionally complacent deep in their cozy null regions buffered by all their intel channels so they can fap and mine/rat in peace right? Theyre the targets who are most likely to forgo exerting vigilance because theyre not as hardened as us WH bros who are accustom to putting in that extra effort.
On the same note, I think youll find that thats why WH pilots may be slightly more difficult to gank because they're used to having to pay attention.
|
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
459
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:32:00 -
[424] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Einar Matveinen wrote:Zukan wrote: Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.
+1 to this post, you're right, delayed beacons in w-space, delayed local in null-space, why null sec ratters may rat in a relatively safe environment and w-space players not. Exactly a good example why local should be removed from null sec!
Please don't turn this into a no local in null threadnaught. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2093
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:36:00 -
[425] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote: Hate to break it to you, but this wasn't possible before the overlay scanner either unless the farmers were being lazy/stupid.
I know, but the point was the with the current instant spawn of the sigs in overview and probe scanner view without probing you don't have any people in eve so lazy/stupid any more. They are gone extinct and so is a lot of player interaction.
I agree. And I agree the discovery scanner should just be scrapped. Honestly it serves little useful purpose beyond being a new player "look exploration!" tool.
But the thing I will keep harping on is that I think it is a bad idea to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. CCP should have a very good understanding at this point of the law of unintended consequences, which I believe would read its ugly head with some of the changes proposed. |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:38:00 -
[426] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:unimatrix0030 wrote:Einar Matveinen wrote:Zukan wrote: Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.
+1 to this post, you're right, delayed beacons in w-space, delayed local in null-space, why null sec ratters may rat in a relatively safe environment and w-space players not. Exactly a good example why local should be removed from null sec! Please don't turn this into a no local in null threadnaught. WH's have suffered from the nerfs leveled against k-space, why should the reverse not also be true? |
Jack Miton
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3136
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:39:00 -
[427] - Quote
No I don't like this. If someone takes the effort of dropping probes and actively watching them, there's zero reason why they should not be able to detect new sigs immediately. This change would swing it too fart the other way.
Probes should detect the sigs immediately, overlay needs a delay. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:39:00 -
[428] - Quote
If it doesn't pop up on overlay & probes for a few minutes I'd love this change.
You guys could set it up as: 0-1:30 minute nothing. 1:30 & <10% mass = probe able 1:30 & >10% mass = sensor overlay & probe able. 2hrs = system wide overlay you warp too. No probing required. Only in wormholes, not k-space. |
Ravcharas
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
290
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:45:00 -
[429] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Ravcharas wrote:Hedge Fox wrote:Ravcharas wrote:Hedge Fox wrote:CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. How is this an isk sink? When ships blow up, ISK vanishes in varying quantities. Some may get looted or salvaged, but a percentage of it is removed from circulation entirely. Thus, ISK Sink. Enabling more mechanics making defensive strategies less effective, would in affect, indirectly consequent in more ships lost, thus adding to the ISK sinks. Much like making interceptors immune to bubbles and increasing warp speeds for them, makes them prime hunters in 0.0 to catch ratters. More death, more money for CCP. Ships being blown up are not an isk sink. They are isk faucets, because of insurance payouts. I don't know what the breakdown is (CCP would though) on the percentage of ships that asplode with insurance or sans insurance. But I am willing to go out on a ledge and estimate that the number of T2 & T3 hulls that go pop is probably within 15% or so of the number of T1 ships that go pop. Why is this relevant....because T2 and T3 hulls get nearly nothing from insurance. Furthermore, from an ISK efficiency standpoint, it doesn't make any financial sense at all for a pilot to pay for insurance on a hull unless he/she knows it'll asplode in the 3 months the policy is active. Therefore most of the hulls that are in wh space never receive insurance past the initial purchase (if even that). This doesn't even take into account the 50% (avg) module loss on every destroyed hull, regardless of insurance. Furthermore, with the mineral re-balance that took place a few months back, the insurance rates (that are based on mineral values, I'll remind you) are badly out of whack even if one wanted to purchase insurance. Case in point: Dominix InsuranceSo....still an ISK sink..... It doesn't really matter what percentage gets paid out. Insurance is still a faucet. Insurance fees are an isk sink, and if you pay enough in fees the net effect can work out to be a sink. I doubt that the system works out to a net sink, though. It was a faucet in 2010. ( http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf - p. 20 )
It may have changed since then. I don't think it has, but I'll freely admit that's me making a guesstimate. That's why I said ships getting blown up is an isk faucet. It was a little bit sloppy of me to say so because technically it's the insurance system but because of default payouts there's no way of getting around the isk injection.
However, ships getting blown up is not an isk sink, even if we get rid of insurance all together. It's a mineral sink. But not an isk sink.
If you keep arguing that it is I'd like you to tell me exactly which isk it is that gets disappeared, and from which wallet, when my ship goes pop. |
advii
Kossu and Keppana Inc.
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:48:00 -
[430] - Quote
What if the new signature showed up only after the 1st ship that has gone through it decloaks? Probably a pain in the ass to implement though. Maybe too little reaction time? I dunno. |
|
arabella blood
Revenant Tactical
197
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 20:50:00 -
[431] - Quote
So odyssey is dying right in front of our eyes:
1. exploration looting cans will be removed. 2. Scanner will be reversed.
whats left from this expansion?? nothing. and you know why? because that is what happens when expansions have 0% content and 100% bug fixes+convenience changes. Troll for hire. Cheap prices. |
Jess Tanner
Hard Knocks Inc.
105
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:00:00 -
[432] - Quote
I'm all for forcing people to actually do something to gain intel, even its just having a dedicated person clicking a button or something, near-instant intel (since the disco scanner sometimes doesn't seem to update right off the bat, even though its quick enough) is bad mmmkay... But this makes no sense, hole control during larger rights (invasions, eviction etc) now becomes all weird since even if your fleet is standing by someone can rage roll a fleet into the hole before you can get on a new k162 to fight them, and those who are risk averse doing wormhole escalations are only going to become more risk averse. Yes the k612 instant intel needs some love, but I don't think this is they way to do it. Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back. |
Dawin4e
Merchant Union Wormhole Holders
122
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:05:00 -
[433] - Quote
This proposal think purely one-sided. It is beneficial only for the striker. And severely infringes upon the inhabitants of the wormhole. Now there is another decline of the population of the wormhole and most of them are empty. If you want to make the game more dangerous - remove exulted in zeros. |
Nightingale Actault
The Night Crew The Night Crew Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:07:00 -
[434] - Quote
I'm convinced no thought went into how this would affect the area of the game that this is proposed for. Unless this is a deliberate bait and switch I am worried, and can see why many wormholers are very adamant that no changes be made. |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
21
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:09:00 -
[435] - Quote
Ali Aras wrote: A mass/time delay would resolve the following issues a time-only delay leaves unsolved:
C1-4 residents can no longer be ganked by a fleet without being able to see the fleet or their incoming signature. In C1-4 space, a cloaky t3 gang can cause serious issues for a farming fleet, particularly on the lower side of that range. Should a K162 spawn off d-scan from where the fleet is, the defenders would have literally no warning. Even on d-scan, the available time to detect a cloaky fleet's existence is short, and spamming d-scan is no more fun than spamming probes.
Carebears can't roll their holes in perfect safety. If a hole is time-limited only, some carebears good with rolling ships can hop in and out inside the timer, and the hungry PvPers they've inadvertently rolled into have no opportunity to attempt a gank or slip a scanning alt through. .
Ermm, nope. b) you can get almost all holes (not c1s and those with 3B mass) critted with 2-3 jumps. That takes about 30 secs even if you do it one after another and with ejecting on the hole. That-¦s not enough time to launch probes on the other side, scan it down and bookmark/give warpin there. And if you jump anything through chances are good you will be stuck. The rollers can even put the capitals on the hole before jumping a scanner, because they are 100% safe there too.
a)The sig will appear the moment the fleet aligns towards you and the T3, covertops, bomber or SOE ship uncloaks next to you and points. So at exactly the same time they show up on dscan or combatprobes. Throwing a purely cloaky T3 fleet at any serious farminggroup will just lead to lots of lossmails. So the only change will be people not using heavytackle but mass-light tackle to maximise the delay.
So overall there is almost no difference between timedalayed and time/mass delayed. Pretty much as already said here, but I finished typing before reading further... Also there seems to be a missconception about this change being good for PvP. It-¦s not. It is good for ganking but actually horrible for forcing actual fights (most of those happen for holecontrol or on the roll).
Any change based on dscanrange makes the detection a diceroll if you hit a <14 AU or a huge system. Is that a good gamemechanic?
It-¦s really nice to see CCP looking at least a small bit at j-space, but there are way better suggestions and discussions about the issues here on the forums. Pretty much starting at day 1. I really hope this suggestion wasn-¦t discussed with the CSM (esp the Wh guys) before posting it here, if they seconded it as it is dickpunching might be appropriate. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4505
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:14:00 -
[436] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:No one said 5 minutes, there is no mention of 5 minutes anywhere. Right now we are talking about the delay in general, the details of the duration are not even being addressed. I think 2 minutes or less is still good enough of a change.
If by "no one," you mean "Two Step," then yes.
and if by "5 minutes", you mean "I didn't read the whole post", then yes.
All the worries about rolling holes before someone notices are kinda silly. Very few people sit around waiting for a K162 to open into them to gank the hole closing ships. Nealy all deaths are from people trying to close holes minutes or hours after they open. I wouldn't worry about being unable to gank people that are trying to close their hole, I worry about being unable to gank those people when they think they are "safe" CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:18:00 -
[437] - Quote
Desimus Maximus wrote:I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.
W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.
If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.
If you want to fight go to low or nullsec you pussies. Or just live with the perfectly fine scanning mechanics as is. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.
Quoted for truth
If you're finding it unrewarding to chainroll for pew, please consider that nullsec has plenty of targets that are very vulnerable to hit and run
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4505
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:24:00 -
[438] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote: I am sorry Ali but I don't know who you talked to but I seriously doubt you've seriously considered all options. The change is going to be terrible and only favors PvP. if CCP only wants to favor PvP, they should never have introduced PvE in wormholes in the first place but the fact is that it's there in large bulks.
I am sorely disappointed by the post you just made...
Oh dearie me, god forbid w-space has any of that evil PVP in it. I know when I think "Where can I go to PVE in safety?" the first thing that comes to mind is in w-space. Come on. The whole point of w-space is that the PVE is supposed to be tough enough that even if you get jumped you at least have a reasonable shot at fighting back. People fail to gank site runners all the time. I've been on both sides of a failed site gank more than 20 times.
Perhaps if people are getting ganked more they might have to think outside the box and set traps of their own? Perhaps they might have to have more than the bare minimum number of people to run the site? Does that sound like a bad thing? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Tyrant Scorn
122
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:28:00 -
[439] - Quote
Two step wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote: I am sorry Ali but I don't know who you talked to but I seriously doubt you've seriously considered all options. The change is going to be terrible and only favors PvP. if CCP only wants to favor PvP, they should never have introduced PvE in wormholes in the first place but the fact is that it's there in large bulks.
I am sorely disappointed by the post you just made...
Oh dearie me, god forbid w-space has any of that evil PVP in it. I know when I think "Where can I go to PVE in safety?" the first thing that comes to mind is in w-space. Come on. The whole point of w-space is that the PVE is supposed to be tough enough that even if you get jumped you at least have a reasonable shot at fighting back. People fail to gank site runners all the time. I've been on both sides of a failed site gank more than 20 times. Perhaps if people are getting ganked more they might have to think outside the box and set traps of their own? Perhaps they might have to have more than the bare minimum number of people to run the site? Does that sound like a bad thing?
No Two Step, that is not what I am saying. I am not against PvP and I don't mind PvP motivating features... But if you have PvE content, you should address both forms of play and not only favor 1 above the other.
The way wormholes work right now is fair for the people who are on the ball and pay attention. It's fine, it's been fine in the past and people should learn to adept to small changes. I had no problems adjusting to the changes when they introduced the Overlay. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Marcus Gideon
Federal Defense Operations Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
150
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:32:00 -
[440] - Quote
When people first started going into wormholes, there was tons of comparisons to Null Sec.
WHs don't have local Intel. WHs don't have Sov. WHs have a lot more logistics to worry about.
But the nice part was, while you may not know straight away if there was a lurking boogeyman cloaked out there somewhere, he didn't know where you were either, unless he used some Combat probes which you could notice right away.
So then... CCCP decided to make all the sites stick out like sore thumbs. Now intruders can find you in a heartbeat, b/c the site you're in is broadcasting to the cosmos.
And then this? Make the backdoor those intruders snuck in through, hidden away until well after their gang has crawled up your ass already?
WHO DOES THIS BENEFIT? OTHER THAN ROAMING GANKS? THIS SURE AS HELL DOESN'T BENEFIT WORMHOLES. |
|
Marcus Gideon
Federal Defense Operations Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
150
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:33:00 -
[441] - Quote
Two step wrote: Oh dearie me, god forbid w-space has any of that evil PVP in it. I know when I think "Where can I go to PVE in safety?" the first thing that comes to mind is in w-space. Come on. The whole point of w-space is that the PVE is supposed to be tough enough that even if you get jumped you at least have a reasonable shot at fighting back. People fail to gank site runners all the time. I've been on both sides of a failed site gank more than 20 times.
Perhaps if people are getting ganked more they might have to think outside the box and set traps of their own? Perhaps they might have to have more than the bare minimum number of people to run the site? Does that sound like a bad thing?
Spoken like a true Null Sec'er.
The same ones who whine and cry daily about how Cloaks should burn fuel or something. All because they get worried when a scary face appears in Local chat. |
Winthorp
1395
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:35:00 -
[442] - Quote
Two step wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:No one said 5 minutes, there is no mention of 5 minutes anywhere. Right now we are talking about the delay in general, the details of the duration are not even being addressed. I think 2 minutes or less is still good enough of a change.
If by "no one," you mean "Two Step," then yes. and if by "5 minutes", you mean "I didn't read the whole post", then yes. All the worries about rolling holes before someone notices are kinda silly. Very few people sit around waiting for a K162 to open into them to gank the hole closing ships. Nealy all deaths are from people trying to close holes minutes or hours after they open. I wouldn't worry about being unable to gank people that are trying to close their hole, I worry about being unable to gank those people when they think they are "safe"
So while sieging a system and maintaining hole control you never watch for new sigs? I know everyone else does...
(Insert witty signature here) |
Tyrant Scorn
122
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:40:00 -
[443] - Quote
Oeps... misread... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
19
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:41:00 -
[444] - Quote
i would be very dis appointed to see a change like this implemented, since the only people who would benefit from a change like this would be the very large PVP groups in W-space. please dont allow Wh space to become like null sec, that only caters to 1 group. please keep balance in the game, attackers and defenders should have equal ground to fight on.
|
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:43:00 -
[445] - Quote
Two step wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote: I am sorry Ali but I don't know who you talked to but I seriously doubt you've seriously considered all options. The change is going to be terrible and only favors PvP. if CCP only wants to favor PvP, they should never have introduced PvE in wormholes in the first place but the fact is that it's there in large bulks.
I am sorely disappointed by the post you just made...
Oh dearie me, god forbid w-space has any of that evil PVP in it. I know when I think "Where can I go to PVE in safety?" the first thing that comes to mind is in w-space. Come on. The whole point of w-space is that the PVE is supposed to be tough enough that even if you get jumped you at least have a reasonable shot at fighting back. People fail to gank site runners all the time. I've been on both sides of a failed site gank more than 20 times. Perhaps if people are getting ganked more they might have to think outside the box and set traps of their own? Perhaps they might have to have more than the bare minimum number of people to run the site? Does that sound like a bad thing?
yeah because ccp broke discovery b4 that we had no problem ganking ppl. like I said b4 at least 70% of ppl farming didn't spam probes b4 and I seriously doubt they will start now........your right tho instead of dropping probes I should have to set drag bubbles and decloaking cans in every site I want to run(totally balanced to your just being able to roll a static and warp in on people b4 anyone even knows there is a new connection I mean that takes the same effort as setting 100s of bubbles and moving them all the time right?).......ppl complaining that spamming dscan and probes isn't fun......that's why it dont get done.....that's why its vigilance. you can have all the fun u want ignorance is bliss just dont cry when the cloaky t3s get u. there is no way that a site that ppl can come thru from a different system should not show up on probe scans. that's just crazy. all that needs to be done is to rollback discovery scan and most wh residents are back to happy and waiting for the pos changes......there is plenty of pvp in wh. we have a whole community that tells ppl they will evict you if you dont give good fights........I find it more disturbing however that you seem to think that larger entities need to be taking wh......this is like the last place u can get 0.0 style small gang warfare(20v20ish and smaller) and tbh most of us would like to keep it that way. its why we dont live in null. and one last point about "god forbid there be pvp in wh"......im gonna go out on a limb and say that PER CAPITIA WH has the most pvp in eve. If probes are nerfed like this ganks will spike then the pvp will fall off as everyone just moves out cuz the only profitable thing Is rolling your static looking for suckers. I guess that's how u get a big blue doughnut in wh space as well.......well played ccp well played |
Alundil
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
438
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:45:00 -
[446] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:It doesn't really matter what percentage gets paid out. Insurance is still a faucet. Insurance fees are an isk sink, and if you pay enough in fees the net effect can work out to be a sink. I doubt that the system works out to a net sink, though. It was a faucet in 2010. ( http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf - p. 20 ) It may have changed since then. I don't think it has, but I'll freely admit that's me making a guesstimate. That's why I said ships getting blown up is an isk faucet. It was a little bit sloppy of me to say so because technically it's the insurance system but because of default payouts there's no way of getting around the isk injection. However, ships getting blown up is not an isk sink, even if we get rid of insurance all together. It's a mineral sink. But not an isk sink. If you keep arguing that it is I'd like you to tell me exactly which isk it is that gets disappeared, and from which wallet, when my ship goes pop.
So, in complete T1 concerns, perhaps more of a mineral sink than an ISK sink. So I stand corrected. This is exacerbated by the fact that build volumes take far more materials than are considered in regards to the insurance though.
As for ISK sinks and ships/modules - this comes into play in the faction/LP item market as that is a very definite sink and a not insubstantial one at that when you consider that it's not uncommon to fly with LP modules that might be worth a good percentage of the hull value. LP based ships and implants are also ISK sinks.
So while the hull exploding, alone, is not necessarily a sink, the fact that many (if not the majority - speculation on my part) of explosions including modules and possibly implants represents a sink in the somewhere in the system. This is under the assumption that people realize ins is a bad deal (currently) even on T1 stuff. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
19
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:46:00 -
[447] - Quote
if you feel that defenders have it too easy take 1 simple step.
Step 1 = Disable the sensor overlay in WH space altogether, make it so the only way a wh dweller knows what sigs are there is by scanning. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1280
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:46:00 -
[448] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote: The way wormholes work right now is fair for the people who are on the ball and pay attention. It's fine, it's been fine in the past and people should learn to adept to small changes. I had no problems adjusting to the changes when they introduced the Overlay.
I find the changes made with Odyssey to be against what wormholes are all about. Free intel is NOT what most people want. They believe it should be worked for. Making sigs automatically show up on scan and making ore sites auto warp to's is NOT the way to go.
Please CCP, let wormholers work for intel. No freebies. No hand holding. This benefits both attackers and defenders. No trolling please |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
425
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:49:00 -
[449] - Quote
Two step wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:No one said 5 minutes, there is no mention of 5 minutes anywhere. Right now we are talking about the delay in general, the details of the duration are not even being addressed. I think 2 minutes or less is still good enough of a change.
If by "no one," you mean "Two Step," then yes. and if by "5 minutes", you mean "I didn't read the whole post", then yes. All the worries about rolling holes before someone notices are kinda silly. Very few people sit around waiting for a K162 to open into them to gank the hole closing ships. Nealy all deaths are from people trying to close holes minutes or hours after they open. I wouldn't worry about being unable to gank people that are trying to close their hole, I worry about being unable to gank those people when they think they are "safe"
You are trying to fix an issue by creating another issue. Its like trying to fix a broken leg by breaking the other leg. Hey least you are in so much pain the other one does not hurt anymore.
We know what you want to address. It is wormhole carebears. We know what you want... is to get into fights without having people run to their POS's and logging off.
How the heck does this address that? Instilling more "fear" does not fix the issue. All this does is remove the concept of "the roam" and replace it with "the role".
Address the heart of the matter, which is giving people a reason to defend their wormhole, and giving attackers a reason to really attack a wormhole. You put a definitive value on saving a wormhole system when you are a defender, and attacking a wormhole system when you are an attacker and I guarantee you will have your fights. You will have your fights beyond fights.
We want to cause a defender to second guess exploding their ships and moving their stuff out of a hole, leaving just a husk of pos's and nothing of value inside. We want a defender to commit the ships to the fight. We want both the big fights and the small fights to happen. We need the viability of PVP to increase, not just create a method of randomly ganking people via some backwards undetectable supercloak. Before you even think about going down this road, you have to really know what the problems are with wormhole space, or what you come up with won't fix anything.
A lack of a gank mechanism is NOT the problem with wormhole space.
The lack of value of wormholes themselves... The lack of value of defending a wormhole.. The lack of value in attacking and sieging a wormhole The lack of ways of getting people to attack.. The lack of results once a siege is complete.. No ways of getting people to bring the fight Greater impact of small gangs.
There has to be ways to get attackers to HURT defenders and commit them to the fight, not gank random pve carebears.
You call these "dungeons", well then make it so the dungeon has enough value to get people to want to take it, and to get others who want to fight for it.
NONE of this has EVER been addressed. Wormholes were a frontier type of system, that has been all but domesticated. People want it to be more of a frontier again, but they want it to matter at the same time. We tried the meet at sun with 10 ships crap.. it got boring.
Methods to commit the fight. Methods for making the space have value, a worth, that causes people to make it their home and to defend it to the last man, and then some. A reason to fight for a piece of wormhole space.
You do that, people will start the eviction train like nobody's business. People will want your stuff, and you will have to commit to fight for it, or die in a ball of fire.
And once you have your stuff, you will fight to keep it, but it has to have more value than just some pi goods and nano-ribbons.
If your concern is PVE carebears in wormholes, create a way to wipe out their PVE content, through PVP activities which would require them to PVP you to protect their PVE, vs just staying in their pos and watching you orbit it for an hour. Replace inactivity with activity, give the attackers a target that will get people out to fight (besides a POS reinforce mechanic which creates no content and does not hurt their PVE activities). Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Kirin Xaxos
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:51:00 -
[450] - Quote
What is motivating this change? Since Odyssey has the activity in W-space gone down my a recordable amount? has there been less kills in w-space because of the change? can we see some kind of data? |
|
Tyrant Scorn
122
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:51:00 -
[451] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote: The way wormholes work right now is fair for the people who are on the ball and pay attention. It's fine, it's been fine in the past and people should learn to adept to small changes. I had no problems adjusting to the changes when they introduced the Overlay.
I find the changes made with Odyssey to be against what wormholes are all about. Free intel is NOT what most people want. They believe it should be worked for. Making sigs automatically show up on scan and making ore sites auto warp to's is NOT the way to go. Please CCP, let wormholers work for intel. No freebies. No hand holding. This benefits both attackers and defenders.
I agree with you that the instant discovery of signatures was not the thing we wanted, but it's a small change and we, as hunters, still have the upper hand because we can scan down and locate targets in 10 seconds flat. I solo a lot, and I have no problems ganking people, even with the instant discovery of signatures and I understand that it might be harder for larger groups.
But introducing a delay is just stupid, remove the overlay, maybe... limiting our probes is a BIG NO ! Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:58:00 -
[452] - Quote
Nightingale Actault wrote:I'm convinced no thought went into how this would affect the area of the game that this is proposed for. Unless this is a deliberate bait and switch I am worried, and can see why many wormholers are very adamant that no changes be made. not no changes even the pve ppl like me are asking for a revert to b4 discovery scanner. and that opens me to more ganks but u know its balanced. If I dont put out probes I wont know. unlike now where I just have to switch between discovery and dscan for instant updates. I mean seriously if we are gonna make it so stuff dont show up on probes for no reason lets just remove dscan and probes all together you know cuz clicking that button is annoying. besides my pve fleet is combat fit I welcome visitors I just prefer that I be able to see them coming. its just dumb that someone could jump thru a fresh hole and probe all your system but u cant see the hole they came out of. But this great idea about nerfing probes is just crazy, lore breaking, and completely unbalanced. Im all for a full redo of how wh work but it needs to be a full redo not some kind of damage control from the devs saying oh we didn't break this there was an underlying problem in that you could actively gain this same information thru probes.....so basically actively probing is the same as having your ship just tell you on discovery scan in ccps eyes. |
Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
14
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 21:58:00 -
[453] - Quote
Instead of "forcing" Content on smaller groups why not Motivate them to fight? with a change like this i can only see it breeding more groups like surely your joking big punk groups with low skill and big ego's. if we want more content in wh space make it more beneficial for groups to work in smaller fleets and groups or live in many wh's instead of one. there is already game modes that cater to large fleets with low skill, lets not make WH space into null sec. |
Skyleth Bergen
Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:03:00 -
[454] - Quote
Since it seems like this is all about whether or not it should be easier for large pvp groups should be able gank players with less resources, maybe we should consider whether large corporations and alliances should be supportable in wormhole space. Is wormhole supposed to be a vast, lonely place to explore solo or in small groups or is simply a space for 100% capsuleer run space (as opposed to empire/npc control)?
Given that the idea 100% capsuleer controlled space is already accomplished by nullsec, I image the w-space niche as being the former. Take out capital escalations and players won't coalesce into the large groups who are able to fund their ganking through mining sleepers. The lack of groups whose primary activities are rolling holes, farming, and occasionally stomping entry level wormholers will totally preempt the relevance of the change suggested. Null sec is high risk - high reward for large groups of players. W-space can be high risk - high reward for single or smaller groups.
If there's a better idea of what role w-space should fill regarding play style, maybe it would be easier to design content. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
101
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:03:00 -
[455] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote: I agree with you that the instant discovery of signatures was not the thing we wanted, but it's a small change and we, as hunters, still have the upper hand because we can scan down and locate targets in 10 seconds flat. I solo a lot, and I have no problems ganking people, even with the instant discovery of signatures and I understand that it might be harder for larger groups.
But introducing a delay is just stupid, remove the overlay, maybe... limiting our probes is a BIG NO !
The oddesey changes wasn't a small change it was a big swing into careless pve. And that is what needs to be fixed. Probing needs to have an advantage. If you probe you should see all in proberange. If you don't probe there should be a delay. |
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:09:00 -
[456] - Quote
Just remembered a blog where someone had interviewed CCP and one of the devs was talking about how they wanted to create a universe where a trucker could come home and spend a few hours each evening hauling if he so chose and find it relaxing and enjoyable... What ever happened to that mindset?
Why is everyone so set on forcing every single player in the game to fall within the boundaries that THEY feel they should be in? Isn't EVE all about the freedom of choice and the ability to do whatever the hell you feel like? If I want to do THIS, why should I not be able to do so with some modicum of safety? What's wrong with being able to do that and it being a moderate risk, rather than knowing that if I get a connecting WH I'm guaranteed to lose the entire fleet?
Call me crazy, but PVP to me is NOT the most enjoyable part of the game. I love building stuff. I love the feeling of success from managing to survive a hot-drop or gatecamp due to skill, a good fit, or just plain luck. Joining in the gate camp and insta-popping industrials..... I find that incredibly boring. |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
280
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:10:00 -
[457] - Quote
From my perspective:
1. I think not having the signature be probable for any length of time is a bad idea.
I know us PVPers are salivating over the idea of being able to have a full two minute of being undetected to gank a site fleet--even I am. However, you have to remember, this means the person who has been opened into cannot take any defensive or aggressive action on the hole that has been opened into them--you can't scan it down quickly and warp a bubbler, a hole crashing group, a t3 defense fleet, or really anything there.
2. That said, I think delaying the discovery scanner is a brilliant idea.
The wormhole community (many of us) were up in arms over the discovery scanner's "instant sig" pop up because it basically gave away the presence of an incoming wormhole while requiring no active scanning work on the part of the person who was being rolled into. We've all wanted a delay for some time and I still think there should be one--but not for someone who is dedicated enough to methodically cycle probes over, and over, and over.
I mean, making something unprobable? That's just giving someone a magic invincibility button to either take action or roll away in peace. Keep in mind, this doesn't just favor gankers--it also favors PVE'ers who may be rolling with a minimal crew, and means they can roll their static without worrying about a response from the K162 side for x amount of time. I personally cannot support probe immunity, but I adamantly support a delay to the discovery scanner--many, many of us have wanted that.
Now, if it was like, 30 second delay on probes, and 1:30-2:00 minutes on the discovery scanner, that might be more reasonable, though I still disagree with it strongly. However, I think much of the community would be happy with that as a compromise. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
http://imgur.com/yEQqAeb |
Thead Enco
Killing is Business Get Off My Lawn
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:12:00 -
[458] - Quote
Threadnaught consensus as of this hour:
Majority of wh bro's not agreeing with this change as fixes "a problem" that apprently didn't exsist before.
The few proponets agreeing with this change as it's addressing a major game design issue since release of Apocryphia due to the ability of tackling ratting dreads "In seige" is TOO hard and thus the "L33t pvper" needs a crutch.
No CCP response as of this time.
-á"A Lannister always pays his debts."
-áTyrion Lannister |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4505
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:15:00 -
[459] - Quote
Deeone wrote: yeah because ccp broke discovery b4 that we had no problem ganking ppl. like I said b4 at least 70% of ppl farming didn't spam probes b4 and I seriously doubt they will start now........your right tho instead of dropping probes I should have to set drag bubbles and decloaking cans in every site I want to run(totally balanced to your just being able to roll a static and warp in on people b4 anyone even knows there is a new connection I mean that takes the same effort as setting 100s of bubbles and moving them all the time right?).......ppl complaining that spamming dscan and probes isn't fun......that's why it dont get done.....that's why its vigilance. you can have all the fun u want ignorance is bliss just dont cry when the cloaky t3s get u. there is no way that a site that ppl can come thru from a different system should not show up on probe scans. that's just crazy. all that needs to be done is to rollback discovery scan and most wh residents are back to happy and waiting for the pos changes......there is plenty of pvp in wh. we have a whole community that tells ppl they will evict you if you dont give good fights........I find it more disturbing however that you seem to think that larger entities need to be taking wh......this is like the last place u can get 0.0 style small gang warfare(20v20ish and smaller) and tbh most of us would like to keep it that way. its why we dont live in null. and one last point about "god forbid there be pvp in wh"......im gonna go out on a limb and say that PER CAPITIA WH has the most pvp in eve. If probes are nerfed like this ganks will spike then the pvp will fall off as everyone just moves out cuz the only profitable thing Is rolling your static looking for suckers. I guess that's how u get a big blue doughnut in wh space as well.......well played ccp well played
b4 I read what u write, u must spend time learning to type "people" instead of "ppl", and lay off the . key. U might also learn about this fancy new key we call "Shift", it makes big boy letters. It is super nice, and u even got 2 of them on ur keyboard. Also, there is this "Enter" key u might want to look into. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
425
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:20:00 -
[460] - Quote
Skyleth Bergen wrote:Since it seems like this is all about whether or not it should be easier for large pvp groups should be able gank players with less resources, maybe we should consider whether large corporations and alliances should be supportable in wormhole space. Is wormhole supposed to be a vast, lonely place to explore solo or in small groups or is simply a space for 100% capsuleer run space (as opposed to empire/npc control)?
Given that the idea 100% capsuleer controlled space is already accomplished by nullsec, I image the w-space niche as being the former. Take out capital escalations and players won't coalesce into the large groups who are able to fund their ganking through mining sleepers. The lack of groups whose primary activities are rolling holes, farming, and occasionally stomping entry level wormholers will totally preempt the relevance of the change suggested. Null sec is high risk - high reward for large groups of players. W-space can be high risk - high reward for single or smaller groups.
If there's a better idea of what role w-space should fill regarding play style, maybe it would be easier to design content.
Right from the design phase wormholes were never meant to be occupied, merely run.
That is why CCP still classifies them as "dungeons that are spawned". There meant to get a group of people, day trip 1 to 2 jumps down, then leave.
Living in them was faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from CCP's thought and mind (I believe they accidentally left the whole "anchor pos" flag on when they created wormhole space).
Wormhole's have basically not been touched for years (a bug fix here and there), until Odyssey and its scanner changes. It burned allot of wormhole space pvp down, but at that point most of wormhole space was known, people who were going to run sites knew how to without fear of retribution from others, etc..
People in the hole, prior to running sites, would crit their static, or roll it completely and not warp to the new static, leaving it closed and the entire hole isolated to everybody. The only method of reaching them was to roll into them or have a wandering hole show up. It did not matter eitherway because organized wormhole groups had probes out scanning for new connections. The PVE group KNEW when a new hole showed up, and either shipped for pvp, or stopped pve and went to their pos's.
The Odyssey change merely removed the need for the prober.
Due to these PVE tactics of locking hole control by critting or rolling the hole and no new one actually spawning, people began to resort to log-on traps to catch people (Now this was being done because the defending force of any largish organization had such an overwhelming force of capitals that trying to small gang them was essentially suicide). So the traps were done to get their PVE ships, giggle in space, and leave.
Again.. how does this suggested change change ANY of this? It does not create good content, it doesn't even create crappy content, it creates nearly pointless content, as nobody cares about a damn carebear (you blow them up, you take their stuff.. thats basically it). Content needs viable combat, not random ganks of carebears.. we'd all load up on tornado's and go to highsec for that.
How about this. Massing a wormhole should spawn more than 1 wormhole.
You halfmass a wormhole, a wandering shows up (that connects to another random wormhole), you crit your static and leave it crit... a second wandering wormhole shows up (that connects to another random wormhole).
So you role your static, you get 2 more wandering wormholes, + a new static.
There you go, you remove the PVE method of hole control. Ontop of that, you give PVP people a method of getting more connecting wormholes by rolling their own hole.
This STILL does not get anybody to commit to a fight though. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4505
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:21:00 -
[461] - Quote
SambaSol wrote:Just remembered a blog where someone had interviewed CCP and one of the devs was talking about how they wanted to create a universe where a trucker could come home and spend a few hours each evening hauling if he so chose and find it relaxing and enjoyable... What ever happened to that mindset? Why is everyone so set on forcing every single player in the game to fall within the boundaries that THEY feel they should be in? Isn't EVE all about the freedom of choice and the ability to do whatever the hell you feel like? If I want to do THIS, why should I not be able to do so with some modicum of safety? What's wrong with being able to do that and it being a moderate risk, rather than knowing that if I get a connecting WH I'm guaranteed to lose the entire fleet? Call me crazy, but PVP to me is NOT the most enjoyable part of the game. I love building stuff. I love the feeling of success from managing to survive a hot-drop or gatecamp due to skill, a good fit, or just plain luck. Joining in the gate camp and insta-popping industrials..... I find that incredibly boring.
If you don't like PVP, highsec is ----> that way. Actually, you might want to look into other games, as EVE is a PVP game, even in highsec.
You should have *any* safety in w-space, that is the whole freaking point of w-space.
Thead Enco wrote:Threadnaught consensus as of this hour:
Majority of wh bro's not agreeing with this change as fixes "a problem" that apprently didn't exsist before.
The few proponets agreeing with this change as it's addressing a major game design issue since release of Apocryphia due to the ability of tackling ratting dreads "In seige" is TOO hard and thus the "L33t pvper" needs a crutch.
No CCP response as of this time.
That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.
Also, I don't think you get to use the phrase "wh bro's" seeing as I can find no evidence at all that you have ever stepped foot in a wormhole. Perhaps you ought to leave the discussion to those that spend time in w-space? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Abon Riff
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:24:00 -
[462] - Quote
I would only wish to see this implemented if the local was removed from Null Sec.
I have always advocated vigilance when taking part in any WH activity, especially with regard to D-scan and probe scanner (And overlay). I have seen the consequences of not being vigialnt, and also been on the other end or punishing the non vigilant.
I imagine that people have asked for this as they believe that WH dwellers make to much money. If this is you beef, live in a wormhole. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1282
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:30:00 -
[463] - Quote
Two step wrote: That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.
Forget the delay part. Without probes, NO sig should show up. Want to find a sig? Drop probes. No trolling please |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4505
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:32:00 -
[464] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote: Right from the design phase wormholes were never meant to be occupied, merely run.
That is why CCP still classifies them as "dungeons that are spawned". There meant to get a group of people, day trip 1 to 2 jumps down, then leave.
Living in them was faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from CCP's thought and mind (I believe they accidentally left the whole "anchor pos" flag on when they created wormhole space).
Wormhole's have basically not been touched for years (a bug fix here and there), until Odyssey and its scanner changes. It burned allot of wormhole space pvp down, but at that point most of wormhole space was known, people who were going to run sites knew how to without fear of retribution from others, etc..
Wrong on occupied.
"Dungeons" refers to the signatures that you scan down. It is a techincal term, because that is what they are called in the code. It has nothing at all to do with any sort of intentions.
Wrong on this magical "anchor POS flag", no such flag ever existed. Talk to the people that designed w-space, they didn't expect the *level* of occupation, or the permanence of occupation, but they did think people would be putting up POSes and living in w-space full time.
Wormhole space has had several very important changes, from fixing Sleeper neuts which *drastically* changed PVE, to all of the probe changes that pre-date Odyssey. Just because you weren't there, or don't remember the changes doesn't mean they didn't happen, and they *greatly* changed w-space.
Phoenix Jones wrote: People in the hole, prior to running sites, would crit their static, or roll it completely and not warp to the new static, leaving it closed and the entire hole isolated to everybody. The only method of reaching them was to roll into them or have a wandering hole show up. It did not matter eitherway because organized wormhole groups had probes out scanning for new connections. The PVE group KNEW when a new hole showed up, and either shipped for pvp, or stopped pve and went to their pos's.
The Odyssey change merely removed the need for the prober.
Due to these PVE tactics of locking hole control by critting or rolling the hole and no new one actually spawning, people began to resort to log-on traps to catch people (Now this was being done because the defending force of any largish organization had such an overwhelming force of capitals that trying to small gang them was essentially suicide). So the traps were done to get their PVE ships, giggle in space, and leave.
Again.. how does this suggested change change ANY of this? It does not create good content, it doesn't even create crappy content, it creates nearly pointless content, as nobody cares about a damn carebear (you blow them up, you take their stuff.. thats basically it). Content needs viable combat, not random ganks of carebears.. we'd all load up on tornado's and go to highsec for that.
How about this. Massing a wormhole should spawn more than 1 wormhole.
You halfmass a wormhole, a wandering shows up (that connects to another random wormhole), you crit your static and leave it crit... a second wandering wormhole shows up (that connects to another random wormhole).
So you role your static, you get 2 more wandering wormholes, + a new static.
There you go, you remove the PVE method of hole control. Ontop of that, you give PVP people a method of getting more connecting wormholes by rolling their own hole.
This STILL does not get anybody to commit to a fight though.
You still don't get it, do you? First of all, blowing up people is one of the most important parts of living in w-space, otherwise we might as well be in highsec running incursions. Secondly, blowing people up directly effects *everyone's* income. If fewer farmers are out there, nanoribbon prices go up, which helps everyone who does any PVE at all in w-space.
PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder, and people should always be able to mess with people trying to make ISK. EVE is a game about player interaction, and causing more interaction causes more fun to be had by all. Perhaps you get ganked and decide to get your revenge. Perhaps you make friends with the people that ganked you. Perhaps you pay them to leave them alone. Perhaps you just die and go back to highsec. All of those are good interactions, and all of those are what EVE is about. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
Abon Riff
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:33:00 -
[465] - Quote
Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:Something else I'd like to comment on
To the folks who would like to open up options to increase the ease of ganking other WH bros' PVE activity...
We're all out in WH space for the same reasons... we're willing to accept the risk, and invest the required effort and vigilance to make living there viable. That means watching Dscan and probing.
If you want to add more eggs for us to juggle to make living in WH harder, thats fine but at least give us the option to exert that added vigilance. The point i think is to be able to prey on people who leave themselves open to it.
Thats why i think the nullbears should be the real targets, because theyre traditionally complacent deep in their cozy null regions buffered by all their intel channels so they can fap and mine/rat in peace right? Theyre the targets who are most likely to forgo exerting vigilance because theyre not as hardened as us WH bros who are accustom to putting in that extra effort.
On the same note, I think youll find that thats why WH pilots may be slightly more difficult to gank because they're used to having to pay attention.
I agree with all you say. Could not have put it better myself. |
Sarah Flinnley
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:35:00 -
[466] - Quote
I've not read through all the suggestions, but the easiest solution to me would be that the WH links get created when the WH are populated in local space vs when someone warps to it. AKA: WH pops in system A after a group rolls a hole. The other end shows up wherever it gets connected to. Shows on D-Scan and everything. Fine. Count down timer also gets started for the hole. Thus, the hole showing up on D-Scan has nothing at all to do with incoming players and the D-scanner's information becomes nothing to write home about. |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
249
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:48:00 -
[467] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:[quote=Tyrant Scorn] Ok I am going to explain it to you like I would to a five year old. CCP has stated time and time before that there should be NO SAFE or fair spot in EvE. Not even in high sec, there should be risk and reward everywhere. W-Space is at the top of that risk-reward pyramid, it should be very dangerous and very profitable. However, due to the CONSTANT skill point creep of the player base it got to the point that if you collapse all connections and drop probes then it becomes fairly safe. Understand?
Whats wrong with a fair game? You'd rather imbalance? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
|
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:50:00 -
[468] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Gustava Risalo wrote:There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage. Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous.
This is amazing logic. Holy crap lets take a moment to appreciate this.
You are Verge of Collapse amongst the most well known pvp entities in wormholes. You claim that you risk that some fleet you gank might just have enough people logged off waiting for you to jump them without the slightest hint or warning it would happen to you? Maybe I have spent too much time sizing up my enemy but every time I jump into a wormhole and see hostiles, I check their corp/alliance their killboard, and some limited history before making decisions.
Are you telling me that one of the most well known and bigger pvp groups in w-space doesn't do some active intel gathering of someone they might potentially gank before trying to kill them? http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=57587
Let me guess that BR was a surprise oh we risked a lot to get a few kills we didn't know what they would log on?
Smell that? Yep its bull ****. Oh surprise coming from you.
You can have a full amount of intel gathered before you start a fight regardless of log off traps. If you choose not to gather intelligence its your own fault you lose ships. Don't come at me with your weak arguments. What is ridiculous is that ccp is even considering giving any entity any sort of intel advantage from active intel gathering sources just so you can have your gank and call it f pvp. Take your whiny elitist bull**** and shove it straight where the sun don' t shine. |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
249
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:55:00 -
[469] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:No I don't like this. If someone takes the effort of dropping probes and actively watching them, there's zero reason why they should not be able to detect new sigs immediately. This change would swing it too fart the other way.
Probes should detect the sigs immediately, overlay needs a delay.
Overlay needs to go die in a hole quietly. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
|
Traba Regina
Serene Vendetta
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:57:00 -
[470] - Quote
I dislike the idea that an active group wouldnt see a sig even if actively probing. Bad idea. By all means remove from overlay along with ore sites as there things you should hunt for.
Systems in null with 5000+ kills in a 24 period now that's an area we should be able to drop on more.. maybe make it more likely a k162 to open into active null areas... not a boring empty one.
Tldr. Active players should see sigs https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=225281&find=unread Join Serene Vendetta now! |
|
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:58:00 -
[471] - Quote
OK...
How about a substantial delay before the sigs automatically show up on scanner, all across the board? Say 30 minutes for every class of hole. But you can probe them with probes from spawn. No delay for probing. At all. Zero. None.
I people don't want to Probe-Scan because they thing it is bad game-play... fine. Don't. Sig shows up anyway. Eventually. And those that wants to have a securer op can probe-spam should they so choose.
Choice is good, right? |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1285
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:03:00 -
[472] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:This is amazing logic. Holy crap lets take a moment to appreciate this. You are Verge of Collapse amongst the most well known pvp entities in wormholes. You claim that you risk that some fleet you gank might just have enough people logged off waiting for you to jump them without the slightest hint or warning it would happen to you? Maybe I have spent too much time sizing up my enemy but every time I jump into a wormhole and see hostiles, I check their corp/alliance their killboard, and some limited history before making decisions. Are you telling me that one of the most well known and bigger pvp groups in w-space doesn't do some active intel gathering of someone they might potentially gank before trying to kill them? http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=57587Let me guess that BR was a surprise oh we risked a lot to get a few kills we didn't know what they would log on? Smell that? Yep its bull ****. Oh surprise coming from you. You can have a full amount of intel gathered before you start a fight regardless of log off traps. If you choose not to gather intelligence its your own fault you lose ships. Don't come at me with your weak arguments. What is ridiculous is that ccp is even considering giving any entity any sort of intel advantage from active intel gathering sources just so you can have your gank and call it f pvp. Take your whiny elitist bull**** and shove it straight where the sun don' t shine.
You can look at all the killboards you want, and it still won't tell you what the enemy fleet has at that moment. You have a limited amount of time to ascertain the following:
1) Jump in new wormhole 2) See wrecks on scan 3) locate where wrecks are 4) find the caps and hope they are still sieged/triaged 5) get the name of the group running sites 6) anyone with a recognized name is going to pose more risk
Now, all this is assuming that they have completely ignored probes/overlay. If you want to catch these fleets before they move out, you have to sometimes jump in not knowing 100% of what to expect. Most people would love to get all the intel the can, but it's not an option sometimes.
So, you can sit here and call what Gnaw said BS, or you can recognize that pvp fleets do come with their own risks. No trolling please |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Sanguis Ignis Prosperitum
250
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:03:00 -
[473] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:OK...
How about a substantial delay before the sigs automatically show up on scanner, all across the board? Say 30 minutes for every class of hole. But you can probe them with probes from spawn. No delay for probing. At all. Zero. None.
I people don't want to Probe-Scan because they thing it is bad game-play... fine. Don't. Sig shows up anyway. Eventually. And those that wants to have a securer op can probe-spam should they so choose.
Choice is good, right?
TLDR: go pre Odyssey. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
|
Jack Miton
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3140
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:05:00 -
[474] - Quote
Two step wrote:PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder. yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Tyrant Scorn
122
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:08:00 -
[475] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Two step wrote:PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder. yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.
What he said :D Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Ariete
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:12:00 -
[476] - Quote
Heres what i think the fix should be -
Anomalies are visible in the discovery scanner and in probe scanner as they are now.
Signatures follow the pre odyssey rules, once they are scanned to the red dot level they will appear in the discovery scanner display
|
Tribunus Zen
SON OF RAVANA Dominatus Atrum Mortis
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:14:00 -
[477] - Quote
Being a WH dweller I think the delay is just a terrible idea.
I do both PVE/PVP, the DS has made in my opinion easier to gank, because basically you use your tracking camara to the sig on the overlay warp cloak, get a warp in and prepare to kill.
Having a delay on K162 or static, would just make the game more tedious not help with ganks, it usually takes more prep time than the proposed 5 min.
I would rather like to change pre-odyssey, where you have to probe all sigs, like I said havent had the need to drop combats probes in a long time, because DS basically show me the way.
The delay would NOT HELP, basically it would be more annoying.
Why dont you focus on Alliance bookmarks or sharing bookmarks in a less arcane method, every new smartphone can share locations now, or was the technology lost???
TRIB |
Winthorp
1396
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:19:00 -
[478] - Quote
Two step wrote:That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.
I actually think it is you who isn't reading here, it looks like the majority of WH space doesn't want a delay but want people to have to do something to get the intel of a new sig.
(Insert witty signature here) |
Thead Enco
Killing is Business Get Off My Lawn
110
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:39:00 -
[479] - Quote
Two step wrote: Also, I don't think you get to use the phrase "wh bro's" seeing as I can find no evidence at all that you have ever stepped foot in a wormhole. Perhaps you ought to leave the discussion to those that spend time in w-space?
Did I hit a nerve? Is PvP SO desolate and incredibly hard nowadays in w-space since i left it many moons ago that you need a crutch to provide content to your members?
-á"A Lannister always pays his debts."
-áTyrion Lannister |
Enta en Bauldry
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:43:00 -
[480] - Quote
Today, a (them)C6>C2(us) WH spawned into us. We had the K162 side. I assume they didn't like what they saw because they brought an Orca to roll and it was a 1 Billion KG hole. If we hadn't been able to scan it immediately we would never have killed the Orca.
I've spent quite a bit of time in W-Space, now please tell me how this was a bad thing Two Step. |
|
Lucius Arcturus
Peoples Capitalist Liberation Front Virtue of Selfishness
210
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:53:00 -
[481] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.
We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent). We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.
Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely. Thanks! -Fozzie
The pre-Odyssey system would be fine. This proposal might turn out to be an overcorrection. C |
ORACOM
BRG Corp Ocularis Inferno
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:53:00 -
[482] - Quote
At the behest of my alliance mates, I am posting this for consideration by the WH community.
From what I have gathered, CCP are trying to address two possible scenarios - both of which currenlty equate to zero risk on the WH resident. Scenario 1: Static WHS can be closed and not opened unless warped to. Scenario 2: Inbound WHS spawn immediately showing up on probe scan window.
Both of which I think need to be addressed. I agree that WH space should have more risk, but I disagree with the timer bit, as it drastically favours the hunter more than the defender. Ideally, we need a solution that is well balanced AND can address both scenarios. I would propose the following change ... but this will only address Scenario 2. I welcome anyone to post a solution that can addresses both.
Proposed Solution: Only allows WHS to show up on probe scanner window (if you have probes out) or if you are 14 AU from where the signature spawns (without probes).
Reason(s): It allows CCP to maintain their scanning changes - that make it easier for new pilots to identify and scan down signatures. I am also going to assume that this solution should be simple to implement (I am only guessing). And lastly, because it would affect every space equally (empire and null included). Under this solution, It would force people to warp around to each celestial in search of spawns. During escalations / farming - residents would have to use probes (pre odyssey) to maintain vigilance or devote pilots at each celestial outside of DSCAN range. Really, residents that dont bother to use either tactic - deserve to get podded. Attackers on the other hand would have the opportunity they need to pounce on targets ( all depending on the size of the wh). Those corps with smaller whs would have prime real-estate in this new world and perhaps this "enhancement" could drive more conflicts in wh space.
|
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
177
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 23:59:00 -
[483] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Gustava Risalo wrote:There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage. Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous. This is amazing logic. Holy crap lets take a moment to appreciate this. You are Verge of Collapse amongst the most well known pvp entities in wormholes. You claim that you risk that some fleet you gank might just have enough people logged off waiting for you to jump them without the slightest hint or warning it would happen to you? Maybe I have spent too much time sizing up my enemy but every time I jump into a wormhole and see hostiles, I check their corp/alliance their killboard, and some limited history before making decisions. Are you telling me that one of the most well known and bigger pvp groups in w-space doesn't do some active intel gathering of someone they might potentially gank before trying to kill them? http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=57587Let me guess that BR was a surprise oh we risked a lot to get a few kills we didn't know what they would log on? Smell that? Yep its bull ****. Oh surprise coming from you. You can have a full amount of intel gathered before you start a fight regardless of log off traps. If you choose not to gather intelligence its your own fault you lose ships. Don't come at me with your weak arguments. What is ridiculous is that ccp is even considering giving any entity any sort of intel advantage from active intel gathering sources just so you can have your gank and call it f pvp. Take your whiny elitist bull**** and shove it straight where the sun don' t shine.
You seem mad you noob. Nobody is immune, and that is what wormhole space should be like. Eg: http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=34504
IMO what is should be changed to is 2-3 spawn timer for a K162 on the noob autoscanner. Or instant detection if you have probes out scanning, that way both the farmers are kept somewhat happy and the entities that roam like a wolf in the night are kept happy. Just as wormhole space should be.
You're making upwards of 300m/hr so grow some testies. Your ships are never really safe because wormholes space is supposed to be the wild west of EVE, a true sandbox. If you are voicing these concerns purely from a farmers point of view we will come for you, and no amount of probes or noobscanner will save you.
Whatever change you make Fozzie, I hope you consider it balanced for both parties like I have suggested above. This way the lazy people lose out, and those that are vigilant and activity playing the game will be kept on their toes. |
Tyrant Scorn
122
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:02:00 -
[484] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote: Forget the delay part. Without probes, NO sig should show up. Want to find a sig? Drop probes.
Jack Miton wrote:Two step wrote:PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder. yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.
Winthorp wrote:Two step wrote:That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up. I actually think it is you who isn't reading here, it looks like the majority of WH space doesn't want a delay but want people to have to do something to get the intel of a new sig.
I have always had some forum trolling issues with the above quoted people but I have to unite with them with the things they say.
I am very surprised by reactions from people like Two Step, Ali Ares and some other outspoken people I thought I could take serious... but after reading their reactions I am worried about their ability to represent us wormholers. Two Step in particular... Am I glad you are not on the CSM anymore buddy.
Ali Ares, a person taken seriously by CCP, a representative voted into the CSM by the community is actively voicing very concerning thoughts. Thoughts that go against the majority of what is being said in this thread... and she actually has the balls to say she spoken to people... Well, I wonder who she spoke to, but they sure as hell shouldn't be taken serious.
If you people keep this up I am going to have to call in a meeting with Bane, Jack and Win and all the other people that seem to be on the same page and start a riot. Believe me, if I have to call in favors, we can start a fire... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:03:00 -
[485] - Quote
Two step wrote: That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.
Um, that 's a unstated major premise there. You're saying that 'the majority' wants a delay IF CCP opts for NOT making the sigs probably.
Although I concede you are right in this (I for one sure agree ) I think it is wrong to state that CCP will go that route and therefore claim that since that will not happen 'the majority' want delays. Sure, delays are better than the current state. But there are better solutions.
Consider this alternative: reverting back to the 'old' way. BUT have the sigs show up after a delay so that those people do not want to 'probe spam' do not have to. That is: sigs immediately probable and showing up automatically after a delay should you opt for not probing. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
465
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:05:00 -
[486] - Quote
ORACOM wrote:At the behest of my alliance mates, I am posting this for consideration by the WH community.
From what I have gathered, CCP are trying to address two possible scenarios - both of which currenlty equate to zero risk on the WH resident. Scenario 1: Static WHS can be closed and not opened unless warped to. Scenario 2: Inbound WHS spawn immediately showing up on probe scan window.
Both of which I think need to be addressed. I agree that WH space should have more risk, but I disagree with the timer bit, as it drastically favours the hunter more than the defender. Ideally, we need a solution that is well balanced AND can address both scenarios. I would propose the following change ... but this will only address Scenario 2. I welcome anyone to post a solution that can addresses both.
Proposed Solution: Only allows WHS to show up on probe scanner window (if you have probes out) or if you are 14 AU from where the signature spawns (without probes).
Reason(s): It allows CCP to maintain their scanning changes - that make it easier for new pilots to identify and scan down signatures. I am also going to assume that this solution should be simple to implement (I am only guessing). And lastly, because it would affect every space equally (empire and null included). Under this solution, It would force people to warp around to each celestial in search of spawns. During escalations / farming - residents would have to use probes (pre odyssey) to maintain vigilance or devote pilots at each celestial outside of DSCAN range. Really, residents that dont bother to use either tactic - deserve to get podded. Attackers on the other hand would have the opportunity they need to pounce on targets ( all depending on the size of the wh). Those corps with smaller whs would have prime real-estate in this new world and perhaps this "enhancement" could drive more conflicts in wh space.
Fix Scenario 1 so that WH's only spawn when warped to: If this is possible, and not a huge source of work on CCP's side, then the only significant change would just be people critting their holes before jewing after rolling, instead of not warping it. Once again, this benefits the highest level WH groups (Such as myself) because while ganking lower levels of WH's with frigs or a few cruisers is perfectly viable, attempting to jump enough ships through an unknown crit c5/6 hole to take out a group results in either part of your ships not making through and leaving you stranded, or getting everyone through and being unable to get back.
Who's seriously going to bring enough t3's through a crit hole to attack a site running fleet without being able to get back through, and without enough mass to bring in caps if needed?
Fix Scenario 2 by enacting a weird distance based ability to see a sig: Heavily penalized holed based on planet location. Changes nothing except having another alt or two to cover all locations as opposed to the present situation. Also the typical issue with requiring continual distance checks from every player to an object or location. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:06:00 -
[487] - Quote
At least as far as I'm reading CCP Fozzies intentions, the delay isn't to allow free roaming of cloakies in WH systems, but to offset the way WH's spawn. They spawn when warp is initialized to them, not when on grid, not when they're jumped. The timer would start when warp is initialised to them. A short (60s) delay on the appearance of the K162 would equal this out. Go time it yourself next static, from when you hit warp to when you jump the wh. Time is a weird thing in Eve and I don't think people really realise how long it actually takes to do things.
A lot of confusion here would be solved by Fozzie returning to this thread an engaging with us on his thoughts for this more thoroughly.
Though the best solve would be to spawn the K162 when someone lands on grid or ideally, when they jump the WH. This equals everything out. Defenders don't get minutes head start to flee back to POS. Attackers actually feel like they have a chance to catch something.
Even better, remove the auto popping up sigs in the scan window and put it back to them only showing up via scan probes. I don't know where the hate came from for this system, it worked well since w-space began. It rewards people who skill into it, it rewards people who practice it, it rewards people who use it to protect themselves. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
466
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:07:00 -
[488] - Quote
Two step wrote: That is simply not true. If anything the majority of people who actually live in w-space seem to agree that without probes, there should be a delay for K162s to show up.
Current Poll results from the poll posted a few pages back.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewanalytics
Scanning Delay - Are you for or against adding a "delay" on scanning incoming WH's as proposed "Against" - The current mechanic is fine, WH's being scannable when warped to by someone on the opposite end is fine. I do not want it changed.95 Votes76% |
Schwa Nuts
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:08:00 -
[489] - Quote
Vanessa Serenity wrote:I approve if the change will apply to k-space local aswell. There is way too little risk farming in null. Just dock whenever someone enters local. Where is the risk vs. reward in that?
Stop trying to turn nullsec into w-space. |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1344
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:09:00 -
[490] - Quote
If you look at post #12,
Quote:making a K162 unprobable is not an option I support, Fozzie Just pointing out how you seem to have missed that CSM9 candidate's post. CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
|
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
428
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:10:00 -
[491] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Two step wrote:PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder. yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.
Rare when I thumbs up Milton.
This is on par of every suggestion ever made in lowsec and nullsec about local.
Remove local.. Riot Delay local... Riot Proximity local... Riot
Why the heck is this even considered a good idea for wormhole space? We have no local and rely on a finite range scanner and probes that take time to scan to get a possible signature and maybe a hit on a ship that may or maynot be there..
This suggestion is a bad.. Bad... BAD mechanic. I'm shocked that this is being considered when this would be rejected by any other sane person in this game..
I want to bring the fight, not make people feel like they failed because they cannot get past a mechanic they have no way of getting by (at this point it's not even a concept of misunderstanding the mechanic, it's purely a one sided slap in the face for everybody in wormhole space, wrapped in the minutely veiled argument that it would bring pvp). Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Sith1s Spectre
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
790
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:18:00 -
[492] - Quote
All this idea looks like is risk free rage rolling for ganks. Don't Luke the hole? Don't worry, you have 5 mins to roll it away before they can scan it down Sky Fighters - WH Space Mercs. -áFor more details https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286708&find=unread
|
Stampede McNabb
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:20:00 -
[493] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:
First, I will continue using the condescending tone to you since you have problems comprehending the basic design principles behind EvE. Second, there is nothing wrong with being the aggressor, thats what this game is about.
You have an opinion, I have an opinion. You only have one opinion. I have one opinion.
You don't hold the copyright on "what this game is about". It is about what I make it for me.
Get over yourself. |
Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Awakened.
222
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:34:00 -
[494] - Quote
I like the descovery scanner but without probes, there should be a delay for the appearance of ALL signature. This falls into the free intel bracket, something which CCP say they don't like.
|
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:38:00 -
[495] - Quote
Stampede McNabb wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:
First, I will continue using the condescending tone to you since you have problems comprehending the basic design principles behind EvE. Second, there is nothing wrong with being the aggressor, thats what this game is about.
You have an opinion, I have an opinion. You only have one opinion. I have one opinion. You don't hold the copyright on "what this game is about". It is about what I make it for me. Get over yourself.
This. EVE is about setting your own rules for winning. |
Tyrant Scorn
124
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 00:51:00 -
[496] - Quote
Would a small Townhall meeting on TeamSpeak be a good idea to discuss ideas and opinions or maybe I could gather some prominent wormholers and have a discussion and live stream it. I would be willing to go as far as getting CSM members to join us and talk about it with actual wormholers and have people from both sides discussing this issue.
Would that be a good idea ?
Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
466
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:04:00 -
[497] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Would a small Townhall meeting on TeamSpeak be a good idea to discuss ideas and opinions or maybe I could gather some prominent wormholers and have a discussion and live stream it. I would be willing to go as far as getting CSM members to join us and talk about it with actual wormholers and have people from both sides discussing this issue.
Would that be a good idea ?
Dunno. It couldn't hurt. But honestly, we already have quite a cross section of WH players from differing levels here discussing it, including several current and former (And quite probably future) CSM members. If you feel like it, go ahead, but I doubt you will be getting any significantly different responses from the consensus of the thread.
Plus if you leave out the representatives of the lower level holes due to not having large prominent groups (who prob outnumber the high levels in total) then you get accused of bias in favor of c5/c6 groups who are the more efamous of the WH corps/alliances.
I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant? |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:07:00 -
[498] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Would a small Townhall meeting on TeamSpeak be a good idea to discuss ideas and opinions or maybe I could gather some prominent wormholers and have a discussion and live stream it. I would be willing to go as far as getting CSM members to join us and talk about it with actual wormholers and have people from both sides discussing this issue.
Would that be a good idea ?
What this needs more than anything is more info from Fozzie. Peoples definition of minutes is obviously wildly all over the place person to person so until that's more settled it's all pretty pointless.
For me that's more than 1 minute, less than 5 minutes. Timer starts upon initialising warp to the WH.
Ideally for me 60s to 120s, more on the lower than the upper on that. That covers all the current side shenanigans and equals things more or less up on the K162 side. That's also assuming NO OTHER CHANGES |
Calvyr Travonis
The Martial Virtues Foundation
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:10:00 -
[499] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
I don't see this as any kind of problem at all. In fact, I still use this technique while running sites. It's the best way to stay safe because there's already a delay in the signature showing up, unless you happen to see it pop up in space, which I never have. Overall, I don't like the proposal at all. I've caught many people while hunting that didn't see me open into them. Those that stay vigilant and scout their system properly should be rewarded while those that can't be bothered, punished by hunters. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
428
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:10:00 -
[500] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Would a small Townhall meeting on TeamSpeak be a good idea to discuss ideas and opinions or maybe I could gather some prominent wormholers and have a discussion and live stream it. I would be willing to go as far as getting CSM members to join us and talk about it with actual wormholers and have people from both sides discussing this issue.
Would that be a good idea ?
Yes it will, and also it depends.
The main reason of the "it depends" part is that there seem to be certain members of the community that has this set in stone (aka they won't budge).
And I am afraid this might turn into one of those town hall meetings where people voice their concern of a direction a governing body is going, and then the governing body goes does it anyway. If you got the right support, aka those with an open mind of the community, and not a narrow view of addressing an issue vs acknowledging the actual underlying problem.. then yes it will do wonders. Asking that though is like asking UPS to Deliver Lava to the North Pole.
Townhalls are not about who listens, its about who hears you. With that said, hold it. If (someone) hears us.. progress is made. Sometimes someone just has to do SOMETHING when nothing is being done in order to wake people up.
Because right now no one is listening, and no one is hearing. The arguments made, debunked, and for the most part, nobody likes the direction. But they are not hearing you.
I would do it, write the entire thing down, put a petition up, print out everybody who signs the petition, print it, bind the write up and the petition in a book, bind it, mail a physical copy to everybody in CCP headquarters because an email will probably get deleted.
At least several garbage bags of this wormhole memorandum will **** off their garbage lady. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
|
Tyrant Scorn
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:12:00 -
[501] - Quote
Anhenka wrote: Plus if you leave out the representatives of the lower level holes due to not having large prominent groups (who prob outnumber the high levels in total) then you get accused of bias in favor of c5/c6 groups who are the more efamous of the WH corps/alliances.
I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?
I see your point on the lower class wormholers but it's not anybody's fault but their own that they don't have a representative. I would call myself a lower class wormholer but I would also say I am in a league of my own because I don't live out of a POS and I don't do corporation or alliance level PvP... I have in the past though.
Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
65
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:12:00 -
[502] - Quote
A town hall with this little information on a huge mechanic change would be completely pointless. Picture rolls of tinfoil being thrown across a packed room. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Tyrant Scorn
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:16:00 -
[503] - Quote
NinjaTurtle wrote:A town hall with this little information on a huge mechanic change would be completely pointless. Picture rolls of tinfoil being thrown across a packed room.
It would be with current CSM members, who have discussed this topic with CCP. This idea has been floating around in CSM circles for a while... So they can surely add valuable information regarding mechanics. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
428
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:19:00 -
[504] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:NinjaTurtle wrote:A town hall with this little information on a huge mechanic change would be completely pointless. Picture rolls of tinfoil being thrown across a packed room. It would be with current CSM members, who have discussed this topic with CCP. This idea has been floating around in CSM circles for a while... So they can surely add valuable information regarding mechanics.
If this town hall does not turn into a pitch to sell the idea... sure ... but its going to turn into a pitch to sell the idea... Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
177
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:23:00 -
[505] - Quote
Stampede McNabb wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:
First, I will continue using the condescending tone to you since you have problems comprehending the basic design principles behind EvE. Second, there is nothing wrong with being the aggressor, thats what this game is about.
You have an opinion, I have an opinion. You only have one opinion. I have one opinion. You don't hold the copyright on "what this game is about". It is about what I make it for me. Get over yourself.
True, everyone has an opinion, until you post on your main, yours just means nothing in this forum. Goodbye.
CCP Fozzie wrote:We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
If you're saying what I think you're saying here Fozzie, what you are thinking of doing is changing a game breaking mechanic. Why would you punish people for actively checking for sigs using probes? Not being able to even probe scan a sig for 5 minutes is going to be catastrophic!
It will not change what you are thinking of fixing though as people can still put combats down and will see when a new ship pops up that isn't their own. Come live in wspace for 6 months please Fozzie, otherwise stop considering breaking Wspace.
As stated previously, the fairest mosy balanced change for both parties seems to be -
2-3 minute delay of new sigs appearing on overview scanner. As well as still having the ability to see a sig instantly if probe spamming.
What this means is that the lazy people lose out, and the active pilots win. Isn't this what we all really want? |
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:24:00 -
[506] - Quote
[quote=Senn Denroth
You seem mad you noob. Nobody is immune, and that is what wormhole space should be like. Eg: http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=34504
IMO what is should be changed to is 2-3 spawn timer for a K162 on the noob autoscanner. Or instant detection if you have probes out scanning, that way both the farmers are kept somewhat happy and the entities that roam like a wolf in the night are kept happy. Just as wormhole space should be.
You're making upwards of 300m/hr so grow some testies. Your ships are never really safe because wormholes space is supposed to be the wild west of EVE, a true sandbox. If you are voicing these concerns purely from a farmers point of view we will come for you, and no amount of probes or noobscanner will save you.
Whatever change you make Fozzie, I hope you consider it balanced for both parties like I have suggested above. This way the lazy people lose out, and those that are vigilant and activity playing the game will be kept on their toes.[/quote]
Listen up chucklefuck, I have heard this same kind of bs from many players in the years i have been playing eve. It is always the same. Local too strong can't warp in fast enough. Noobscanner saves them. Oh god they are using probes we can't get a fight.
If you want pvp in eve ADAPT. ADAPT AND SURVIVE. Don't ***** to ccp that the game isn't fair. Maybe the 300mi/hour in isk you make hasn't sprouted your ********* yet. Perhaps when you hit 500mil/hour you might see them drop an inch. Until then keep your whiny **** to your private forums. |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
65
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:29:00 -
[507] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:NinjaTurtle wrote:A town hall with this little information on a huge mechanic change would be completely pointless. Picture rolls of tinfoil being thrown across a packed room. It would be with current CSM members, who have discussed this topic with CCP. This idea has been floating around in CSM circles for a while... So they can surely add valuable information regarding mechanics.
and the NDA will still prevent them from giving us anything of meaning, outside of anecdotal wisdom and gentle coddling if you're into that sort of thing.
Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Tyrant Scorn
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:32:00 -
[508] - Quote
NinjaTurtle wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:NinjaTurtle wrote:A town hall with this little information on a huge mechanic change would be completely pointless. Picture rolls of tinfoil being thrown across a packed room. It would be with current CSM members, who have discussed this topic with CCP. This idea has been floating around in CSM circles for a while... So they can surely add valuable information regarding mechanics. and the NDA will still prevent them from giving us anything of meaning, outside of anecdotal wisdom and gentle coddling if you're into that sort of thing.
My primary concern is to make sure that if the overall majority of wormhole space doesn't want a certain change, the current CSM members are in line with this and that we don't get to see CSM members voicing a different opinion then what the actual community wants. Then CSM members would mis-represent the community, and that is unacceptable.
We can have a discussion about this subject without breaking the NDA.
Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Jack Miton
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3151
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:41:00 -
[509] - Quote
This WAS discussed at the last CSM town hall, basically everyone hated it. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Tyrant Scorn
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:42:00 -
[510] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:This WAS discussed at the last CSM town hall, basically everyone hated it.
Then I think CCP missed it because why bring it up after grading the community... Seems weird to me. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
|
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
643
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:45:00 -
[511] - Quote
Stampede McNabb wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:
First, I will continue using the condescending tone to you since you have problems comprehending the basic design principles behind EvE. Second, there is nothing wrong with being the aggressor, thats what this game is about.
You have an opinion, I have an opinion. You only have one opinion. I have one opinion. You don't hold the copyright on "what this game is about". It is about what I make it for me. Get over yourself.
That is not an opinion that is a fact from CCP. Guess why they are putting the deployable siphon units? I will give you a hint, its not so you and other bears can give each other hugs. |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
65
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:45:00 -
[512] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:NinjaTurtle wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:NinjaTurtle wrote:A town hall with this little information on a huge mechanic change would be completely pointless. Picture rolls of tinfoil being thrown across a packed room. It would be with current CSM members, who have discussed this topic with CCP. This idea has been floating around in CSM circles for a while... So they can surely add valuable information regarding mechanics. and the NDA will still prevent them from giving us anything of meaning, outside of anecdotal wisdom and gentle coddling if you're into that sort of thing. My primary concern is to make sure that if the overall majority of wormhole space doesn't want a certain change, the current CSM members are in line with this and that we don't get to see CSM members voicing a different opinion then what the actual community wants. Then CSM members would mis-represent the community, and that is unacceptable. We can have a discussion about this subject without breaking the NDA.
I do understand your concern and concur with the intent: a majority decision is always better. Unfortunately there is no existing quantitative metric for these kinds of things and tbh, townhalls tend to be much more 'qualitative' than a widely accessible forum post. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
178
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:45:00 -
[513] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:Senn Denroth wrote:You seem mad you noob. Nobody is immune, and that is what wormhole space should be like. Eg: http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=34504IMO what is should be changed to is 2-3 spawn timer for a K162 on the noob autoscanner. Or instant detection if you have probes out scanning, that way both the farmers are kept somewhat happy and the entities that roam like a wolf in the night are kept happy. Just as wormhole space should be. You're making upwards of 300m/hr so grow some testies. Your ships are never really safe because wormholes space is supposed to be the wild west of EVE, a true sandbox. If you are voicing these concerns purely from a farmers point of view we will come for you, and no amount of probes or noobscanner will save you. Whatever change you make Fozzie, I hope you consider it balanced for both parties like I have suggested above. This way the lazy people lose out, and those that are vigilant and activity playing the game will be kept on their toes. Listen up chucklefuck, I have heard this same kind of bs from many players in the years i have been playing eve. It is always the same. Local too strong can't warp in fast enough. Noobscanner saves them. Oh god they are using probes we can't get a fight. If you want pvp in eve ADAPT. ADAPT AND SURVIVE. Don't ***** to ccp that the game isn't fair. Maybe the 300mi/hour in isk you make hasn't sprouted your ********* yet. Perhaps when you hit 500mil/hour you might see them drop an inch. Until then keep your whiny **** to your private forums.
Are you mad? You seem mad?
I said upwards of 300m/hr. We do about 600m/hr. We do apart, I'm just trying to warn CCP of making a potential game breaking change because they listened to the voice of noobs like you which are the loudest. The best fairest choices in life are not always the most popular, you might learn this one day. |
Tyrant Scorn
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:50:00 -
[514] - Quote
NinjaTurtle wrote:I do understand your concern and concur with the intent: a majority decision is always better. Unfortunately there is no existing quantitative metric for these kinds of things and tbh, townhalls tend to be much more 'qualitative' than a widely accessible forum post.
Yeah, I agree it's hard to get a good insight but I think on this particular issue we can clearly see what the overall community thinks of a delay feature.
Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
643
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:53:00 -
[515] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote: Listen up chucklefuck, I have heard this same kind of bs from many players in the years i have been playing eve. It is always the same. Local too strong can't warp in fast enough. Noobscanner saves them. Oh god they are using probes we can't get a fight.
If you want pvp in eve ADAPT. ADAPT AND SURVIVE. Don't ***** to ccp that the game isn't fair. Maybe the 300mi/hour in isk you make hasn't sprouted your ********* yet. Perhaps when you hit 500mil/hour you might see them drop an inch. Until then keep your whiny **** to your private forums.
You are not a very intelligent person. PvE is a very easy and straightforward implementation, it is literally a single player game with some server side code. In order to PvE the devs just need to give you a ship and put in some red crosses to shoot at. PvE and cooperative PvE is also among one of the most widely available MMO mechanics, you can PvE in pretty much every MMO. In many of those MMOs you can PvE without ANY risk.
EvE stands apart from all those MMOs in the way it does the PvP mechanics. That is what EvE is about, its about bringing two human parties into conflict. That portion of EvE is far more difficult to balance then PvE, its requires a lot of work and feedback from the users. CCP is constantly balancing the game in order to make it so that PvP cannot be avoided, or nearly avoided. So no, its not up to PvPers to adopt and survive, it is up for PvE players to do that because this is a PVP oriented game and no amount of temper tantrums on the official forums are going to change that. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 01:59:00 -
[516] - Quote
Just because Eve is different from other MMOs doesn't mean you get to say "You guys have to adapt to the game being how I want it"
There is a balance to be found and making it impossible for the defending party to get information is not that balance. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 02:09:00 -
[517] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Just because Eve is different from other MMOs doesn't mean you get to say "You guys have to adapt to the game being how I want it"
There is a balance to be found and making it impossible for the defending party to get information is not that balance.
*sigh* it's not impossible it's a delay and you've had a delay before, it was how long it too your probes to complete your scan plus however long you waited between scans. All this would be is a longer rigid server side version of that. Nothing more. There is balance to be found and that balance is in removing the defenders massive advantage in having the K162 appear straight away in the scan window. The attacker gets NO information immediately, why should the defender.
Is it a terrible long way around fixing this massive defender advantage? yes. But as this is whats being put forth, chances are there's technical/time issues that prevent the correct fixes being implemented, namely K162's spawning when the attacker lands on grid/jumps the wormhole and signals only being shown via scan probes. |
DoToo Foo
Weaponised FuGu
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 02:12:00 -
[518] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:... Yo, not every person in corp/alliance is in need of ISK or interested in running sites for extended period of time. A group can have 5/6 pilots doing sites and 10 others who are online but are not participating. Not to mention that many groups use jabber/slack to ping their offline membership.
Not every wormhole corp has (or wants) dreads.
In our classes of wormholes (c1-c4), the fight is over before someone could even log in. The sole exception was when I lost my orca on a wormhole. I have never brought an orca back into WH space, so that is unlikely to occur again.
For higher end groups, using siege/bastion mode, the delay appears unnecessary. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 02:15:00 -
[519] - Quote
I would be entirely happy with having the wormhole spawn upon someone landing on grid, rather than warping (there are additional problems related to the propogation of K162 holes that would be presented if someone could see the show info box on a wormhole without creating the other side), in combination with requiring scan probes to be used. In my eyes that is a better balance than the proposal, and better than what we have now.
The delay of the probes completing their scan is also a decent way of balancing signatures because it promotes activity and also rewards somebody who trains the related skill. Having a minute or two minute or five minute delay during which you can't use your own scouts to get the same intel on the people who have rolled into you will unfairly punish people who would be interested in fighting but are instead forced to sit twiddling their thumbs while the timer ticks down. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
429
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 02:31:00 -
[520] - Quote
Good grief this does not promote pvp.
There are better ways.
No delay, no sneaky hole, you want to promote more pvp, make more routes. People try to crit route, double it.
Each time you crit a wormhole (under 50%) a new wormhole spawns Each time you crit a wormhole (under 5%) a new wormhole spawns Each time you collapse a wormhole, a new one (the static) spawns.
What you wind up doing is killing your static, and generating 3 holes.
You could generate 200 holes, it won't make people fight. You start sieging, they pack up and leave. Damage... Done?
I've been saying this before, wormholes have to matter. Currently they are being farmed just like any instanced dungeon in any other game. Ccp's solution to stop that... Secret gank hole? This does not require argument of debate, as anybody with even 5 cents worth of common sense sees that this is a completely game wrecking and BAD idea. It does not fix or enhance anything....
It was apparently brought up before, shot down with resounding applause.. And it's still here now with the greater support of current and former csm?
Some people have lost touch with the community they were once apart of. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
|
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
507
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 02:36:00 -
[521] - Quote
I'm applying real world mechanics here, but they actually make sense in this aspect.
If someones scanning for something, you can pick it up the moment it appears... Not before, not 30 seconds or a minute later. The very moment it appears.
The use of probes in Eve is exactly the same. If you have probes out and a new sig appears, you should be able to pick up that signature immediately. Not before, not 30 seconds or a minute later.
By all means remove it from the system scanner or overlay, but not from the probe scanner. That's just plain silly. And if this is going to be the case, how about we get a delayed "name show up in local" if we jump into a nullbear farming system??? Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 02:46:00 -
[522] - Quote
Senn Denroth wrote:Gustava Risalo wrote:Senn Denroth wrote:You seem mad you noob. Nobody is immune, and that is what wormhole space should be like. Eg: http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=34504IMO what is should be changed to is 2-3 spawn timer for a K162 on the noob autoscanner. Or instant detection if you have probes out scanning, that way both the farmers are kept somewhat happy and the entities that roam like a wolf in the night are kept happy. Just as wormhole space should be. You're making upwards of 300m/hr so grow some testies. Your ships are never really safe because wormholes space is supposed to be the wild west of EVE, a true sandbox. If you are voicing these concerns purely from a farmers point of view we will come for you, and no amount of probes or noobscanner will save you. Whatever change you make Fozzie, I hope you consider it balanced for both parties like I have suggested above. This way the lazy people lose out, and those that are vigilant and activity playing the game will be kept on their toes. Listen up chucklefuck, I have heard this same kind of bs from many players in the years i have been playing eve. It is always the same. Local too strong can't warp in fast enough. Noobscanner saves them. Oh god they are using probes we can't get a fight. If you want pvp in eve ADAPT. ADAPT AND SURVIVE. Don't ***** to ccp that the game isn't fair. Maybe the 300mi/hour in isk you make hasn't sprouted your ********* yet. Perhaps when you hit 500mil/hour you might see them drop an inch. Until then keep your whiny **** to your private forums. Are you mad? You seem mad? I said upwards of 300m/hr. We do about 600m/hr. We do apart, I'm just trying to warn CCP of making a potential game breaking change because they listened to the voice of noobs like you which are the loudest. The best fairest choices in life are not always the most popular, you might learn this one day.
U MAD? HEY YOU SEEM MAD?
You sprout a terrible meme bring nothing new to the table and don't even try to refute my argument. At least Gnaw LF took a position.
Next time save me the trouble of reading your horrible posting.
|
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:00:00 -
[523] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Gustava Risalo wrote: Listen up chucklefuck, I have heard this same kind of bs from many players in the years i have been playing eve. It is always the same. Local too strong can't warp in fast enough. Noobscanner saves them. Oh god they are using probes we can't get a fight.
If you want pvp in eve ADAPT. ADAPT AND SURVIVE. Don't ***** to ccp that the game isn't fair. Maybe the 300mi/hour in isk you make hasn't sprouted your ********* yet. Perhaps when you hit 500mil/hour you might see them drop an inch. Until then keep your whiny **** to your private forums.
You are not a very intelligent person. PvE is a very easy and straightforward implementation, it is literally a single player game with some server side code. In order to PvE the devs just need to give you a ship and put in some red crosses to shoot at. PvE and cooperative PvE is also among one of the most widely available MMO mechanics, you can PvE in pretty much every MMO. In many of those MMOs you can PvE without ANY risk. EvE stands apart from all those MMOs in the way it does the PvP mechanics. That is what EvE is about, its about bringing two human parties into conflict. That portion of EvE is far more difficult to balance then PvE, its requires a lot of work and feedback from the users. CCP is constantly balancing the game in order to make it so that PvP cannot be avoided, or nearly avoided. So no, its not up to PvPers to adopt and survive, it is up for PvE players to do that because this is a PVP oriented game and no amount of temper tantrums on the official forums are going to change that.
Last time I looked at the VoC killboard you all had plenty of kills some from nullsec, some for lowsec and some from w-space. The claim has been made that the instant spawning of a k-162 is hampering the pvp in w-space so terrible that w-space is no longer risky enough to be worth the reward. You seem to be getting plenty of kills for your effort so clearly pvp in w-space is working.
PVE players have adapted as you claim and you get less ganks or pvp because they adapted. So then pvpers make the cry that a mechanic is hampering their chosen play style. Why is it you wish for the PVE players to adapt but the pvpers just get mechanics changed and the game rebalanced? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13092
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:02:00 -
[524] - Quote
Fozzie, also consider why it's so hard to find a wormhole on SiSi. President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Tyrant Scorn
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:04:00 -
[525] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Fozzie, also consider why it's so hard to find a wormhole on SiSi.
Its so hard because they don't get rotated. No one is in them on SiSi, so they stay in the same place and don't get "activated". Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:07:00 -
[526] - Quote
No delays on sigs.
Wormhole life has plenty of issues as is. Many aspects need work, such as pos for just one. please work on something that need done.
As a minor point, most of eve requires time, patience, even some work. It gets darn old to keep hearing the PvP crowd crying and whining that its to hard, requires to much time, to much effort, etc. There is no reason they should be able to jump into a wormhole, and insta warp to sites that now require no probing to attack site runners and miners with no effort from the PvP toon. The wormhole dwellers have usally invested effort and time into their wormhole occupation. The least the PvP toons can do is put a little work into attacking a mining ship or a PVE fit site runner.
|
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1289
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:10:00 -
[527] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:
PVE players have adapted as you claim and you get less ganks or pvp because they adapted. So then pvpers make the cry that a mechanic is hampering their chosen play style. Why is it you wish for the PVE players to adapt but the pvpers just get mechanics changed and the game rebalanced?
It's not a matter of less ganks. it's a matter of free intel. We don't want free intel. Most wh pvpers don't want grav sites showing up at 100% either, and that definitely makes it harder to gank. No trolling please |
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
178
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:11:00 -
[528] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:Senn Denroth wrote:Gustava Risalo wrote:Senn Denroth wrote:You seem mad you noob. Nobody is immune, and that is what wormhole space should be like. Eg: http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=34504IMO what is should be changed to is 2-3 spawn timer for a K162 on the noob autoscanner. Or instant detection if you have probes out scanning, that way both the farmers are kept somewhat happy and the entities that roam like a wolf in the night are kept happy. Just as wormhole space should be. You're making upwards of 300m/hr so grow some testies. Your ships are never really safe because wormholes space is supposed to be the wild west of EVE, a true sandbox. If you are voicing these concerns purely from a farmers point of view we will come for you, and no amount of probes or noobscanner will save you. Whatever change you make Fozzie, I hope you consider it balanced for both parties like I have suggested above. This way the lazy people lose out, and those that are vigilant and activity playing the game will be kept on their toes. Listen up chucklefuck, I have heard this same kind of bs from many players in the years i have been playing eve. It is always the same. Local too strong can't warp in fast enough. Noobscanner saves them. Oh god they are using probes we can't get a fight. If you want pvp in eve ADAPT. ADAPT AND SURVIVE. Don't ***** to ccp that the game isn't fair. Maybe the 300mi/hour in isk you make hasn't sprouted your ********* yet. Perhaps when you hit 500mil/hour you might see them drop an inch. Until then keep your whiny **** to your private forums. Are you mad? You seem mad? I said upwards of 300m/hr. We do about 600m/hr. We do apart, I'm just trying to warn CCP of making a potential game breaking change because they listened to the voice of noobs like you which are the loudest. The best fairest choices in life are not always the most popular, you might learn this one day. U MAD? HEY YOU SEEM MAD? You sprout a terrible meme bring nothing new to the table and don't even try to refute my argument. At least Gnaw LF took a position. Next time save me the trouble of reading your horrible posting.
I don't consider your psychotic ramblings an argument you nameless pet. |
eGO Wallrat
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:19:00 -
[529] - Quote
So I'm new to the forums but not to EVE and for the last several years I've been living in W-Space. I've learned to be paranoid. I've done some hunting myself and I've been hunted. As I'm reading this it would be a major change to the current WH dynamic IMO. Take the auto scanner away - but don't take away my ability to be vigilant.
BayneNothos wrote:[quote=Erasmus Phoenix]There is balance to be found and that balance is in removing the defenders massive advantage in having the K162 appear straight away in the scan window. The attacker gets NO information immediately, why should the defender.
The attackers can get information right away with the overlay. Ships on scan and one anom? I know where I'm heading. If I had to scan down the anom then the ratters / miners might see my probes before I get there - if they're vigilant.
By masking sigs it simply handicaps one side of equation.
I'm all for taking away the auto overlay and make us rely on our own actions to see what's out there. But it doesn't make sense for me to probe if I can't actually see what's there. |
Leah-Ayrn
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:29:00 -
[530] - Quote
Haven't read through all the thread yet but this was my first thoughts on this-
The old system favored the 'home' guys too much. Keep on D-scan and watch for probes meant the attackers were usually at a disadvantage. You could be caught, but you had a good window to see it coming and gtfo. If you got caught you were just lazy on D-scan.
The new system will favor the attackers too much. Just like the old system did the 'owners'. Lets assume the sig cant be seen for 2 minutes in the new system. 2 minutes is plenty enough time for a roam to D-Scan down what anom you are at and get the attack in motion. By the time the site runner even knows something is happening its too late. He hasn't really done anything wrong on his end. But he has no tools to help defend himself against this*.
I'm not trying to advocate for a carebear approach. But to make the most out of the situation everyone needs to consider both sides of this. Neither side deserves to have an advantage handed to them just because.
*And "bring more friends" is not always the retort to this. Usually all that does is escalate the fight lol. You shouldn't have to rely on 3-4-5 other people to run a site in a C1-2 just to help deter attackers. Bringing friends to SURVIVE an attack is one thing, bringing friends because you can't even see the attack coming is another.
I can't see them keeping the new sig hidden for less than 60 seconds. Anything less would just about defeat the point of it. But anything longer gives a big boost to the attackers too. I'm just in favor of a fair system. You catch me, you win. You mess up, I win. |
|
sixfortyk
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:36:00 -
[531] - Quote
No much love for automatic scanny bizniz in UNKNOWN space. |
ROSSLINDEN0
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
227
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:40:00 -
[532] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Gustava Risalo wrote:There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.
Where is your risk?
You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.
Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage. Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous. This is amazing logic. Holy crap lets take a moment to appreciate this. You are Verge of Collapse amongst the most well known pvp entities in wormholes. You claim that you risk that some fleet you gank might just have enough people logged off waiting for you to jump them without the slightest hint or warning it would happen to you? Maybe I have spent too much time sizing up my enemy but every time I jump into a wormhole and see hostiles, I check their corp/alliance their killboard, and some limited history before making decisions. Are you telling me that one of the most well known and bigger pvp groups in w-space doesn't do some active intel gathering of someone they might potentially gank before trying to kill them? http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=57587Let me guess that BR was a surprise oh we risked a lot to get a few kills we didn't know what they would log on? Smell that? Yep its bull ****. Oh surprise coming from you. You can have a full amount of intel gathered before you start a fight regardless of log off traps. If you choose not to gather intelligence its your own fault you lose ships. Don't come at me with your weak arguments. What is ridiculous is that ccp is even considering giving any entity any sort of intel advantage from active intel gathering sources just so you can have your gank and call it f pvp. Take your whiny elitist bull**** and shove it straight where the sun don' t shine.
It wasnt our op you ******* spastic, we had an exit near by and nut invited us along for some cap km's |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:44:00 -
[533] - Quote
eGO Wallrat wrote:So I'm new to the forums but not to EVE and for the last several years I've been living in W-Space. I've learned to be paranoid. I've done some hunting myself and I've been hunted. As I'm reading this it would be a major change to the current WH dynamic IMO. Take the auto scanner away - but don't take away my ability to be vigilant. BayneNothos wrote:[quote=Erasmus Phoenix]There is balance to be found and that balance is in removing the defenders massive advantage in having the K162 appear straight away in the scan window. The attacker gets NO information immediately, why should the defender. The attackers can get information right away with the overlay. Ships on scan and one anom? I know where I'm heading. If I had to scan down the anom then the ratters / miners might see my probes before I get there - if they're vigilant. By masking sigs it simply handicaps one side of equation. I'm all for taking away the auto overlay and make us rely on our own actions to see what's out there. But it doesn't make sense for me to probe if I can't actually see what's there.
We're talking about different times here. The defender knows about the incoming K162 at my warp initialisation + however long it takes the discovery scanner to refresh itself/manually be refreshed. This can be as short as a second or as long as however long the auto refresh rate on the discovery scanner window is. The attacker doesn't get any info from the new wh until he's aligned, warped to it, flown up to it, jumped, loaded the new system and clicked dscan. If it's a short warp, he's in a fast boat and he lands on top of the wh that can be a short time, 10-20 seconds. If the WH is the other end of the system, if he's in a fat scan boat like an Armour T3, if the cosmic anomaly is far off the WH entity itself it can be double or even longer than that.
This is why I'm in favour of a short delay (or a proper fix via WH spawning on gridland) it equals up both sides. |
Abs Sciuto
Diesel Corporation Intercom.
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:52:00 -
[534] - Quote
please, don't do this thing. you have killed wh at all when moved asteroid plexes into anomalies.
and this thing will kill everything at all. carebear ships couldn't fight 10 t3 cruisers at all and will de destroyed in any case. if you really want to do something, do it with wh as system. |
Tyrant Scorn
126
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 03:52:00 -
[535] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote: (or a proper fix via WH spawning on gridland)
I can see this being the only agreeable change, it makes sense. I think people need to be careful when they use the term delay. Some people are thinking of a 5 minute black out period or a 5 minute Probe scan delay, which is completely insane.
I think, if a change has to be made, the spawn of a new WH connection once you arrive on grid, is the only agreeable change CCP should consider. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
643
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 04:19:00 -
[536] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Just because Eve is different from other MMOs doesn't mean you get to say "You guys have to adapt to the game being how I want it"
There is a balance to be found and making it impossible for the defending party to get information is not that balance.
I am not saying you have to adapt to how I want it, I am saying that the sig spawning when you warp to it gives the PvE crowd an early warning system. Because the time it takes to warp + jump + load grid + cloack + d-scan + warp + drop on someone all the while trying to get the fleet ready to jump in is ridiculous. I have time and time argued for why there should be a delay and instead of providing conclusive counter points all I hear is that "sigs need to be scanned when probes are dropped". However no one is willing to construct a valid argument for why that should be the mechanic and why "it was not broke" before odyssey. Because it was obviously broken. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
643
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 04:23:00 -
[537] - Quote
Gustava Risalo wrote:
Last time I looked at the VoC killboard you all had plenty of kills some from nullsec, some for lowsec and some from w-space. The claim has been made that the instant spawning of a k-162 is hampering the pvp in w-space so terrible that w-space is no longer risky enough to be worth the reward. You seem to be getting plenty of kills for your effort so clearly pvp in w-space is working.
PVE players have adapted as you claim and you get less ganks or pvp because they adapted. So then pvpers make the cry that a mechanic is hampering their chosen play style. Why is it you wish for the PVE players to adapt but the pvpers just get mechanics changed and the game rebalanced?
Look at KB as much as you want, my argument is that defenders get an early warning system, they can POS up and wait to see who opened into them. That is not high risk, high reward PvE. It should be changed and this is a reasonable solution. Simple as that. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1290
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 04:33:00 -
[538] - Quote
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote: It wasnt our op you ******* spastic, we had an exit near by and nut invited us along for some cap km's
But......but.....killmails! No trolling please |
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 04:52:00 -
[539] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Gustava Risalo wrote:
Last time I looked at the VoC killboard you all had plenty of kills some from nullsec, some for lowsec and some from w-space. The claim has been made that the instant spawning of a k-162 is hampering the pvp in w-space so terrible that w-space is no longer risky enough to be worth the reward. You seem to be getting plenty of kills for your effort so clearly pvp in w-space is working.
PVE players have adapted as you claim and you get less ganks or pvp because they adapted. So then pvpers make the cry that a mechanic is hampering their chosen play style. Why is it you wish for the PVE players to adapt but the pvpers just get mechanics changed and the game rebalanced?
Look at KB as much as you want, my argument is that defenders get an early warning system, they can POS up and wait to see who opened into them. That is not high risk, high reward PvE. It should be changed and this is a reasonable solution. Simple as that.
I agree the current system heavily favors the defenders. However a 2 minute complete lack of notice for a hostile force for being in your wormhole is not reasonable. That tips the favor to the attacker. Do we need the nuetered local that we have now with the k162 showing up on the overlay. Hell no its a terrible design. Should I still be able to spam probes to find a new signatures. Yes.
Personally of all the suggestions posted here landing on grid with the wh spawning the k162 is a fairly valid and reasonable position giving both sides fair footing to either make the gank happen or safe up. |
Baby Dady
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
42
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 04:59:00 -
[540] - Quote
Hello,
My name is Baby Dady, I am a bad person, I am bad at EVE.
I gank people in Wormholes. That is my sole activity in this game. I fly solo in c1-c4 wormholes blowing up PI Haulers, Site Runners, and Miners. All I do is gank people doing PVE in Wormhole space. Since the change proposed in the OP falls directly into what I do, I will contribute to the discussion.
Initially this looks like a great idea, but upon further deep thought this has to be the worst idea since GÇÿwormhole stabilizersGÇÖ. This will drive all small groups from doing PVE in Wormhole space entirely. CCP just announced the best incentive for new small groups to move into w-space that I have heard recently, with the ore compression module thingy. This will completely offset that and de-incentivize any small new group from wanting to go into W-space entirely.
I do not have the perspective to comment on how this would impact C5/C6 Capital Escalation bears or their hunters, but it would turn low class systems into barren deserts of endless empty systems.
This change would give me (the bad person who is bad at eve and only shoots defenseless ships) a significant advantage.
I whole heartedly agree that there are issues that need to be addressed. But this change alone is not the solution. There are a few good ideas already out there such as duel statics in C4GÇÖs, fixing Black Holes, and fixing POSGÇÖs. I would suggest we start there.
Praise BOB!
BD
Ps. glad to see devs looking at w-space, just donGÇÖt eff it up! |
|
Tyrant Scorn
129
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 05:23:00 -
[541] - Quote
Baby Dady wrote:Hello,
My name is Baby Dady, I am a bad person, I am bad at EVE.
I gank people in Wormholes. That is my sole activity in this game. I fly solo in c1-c4 wormholes blowing up PI Haulers, Site Runners, and Miners. All I do is gank people doing PVE in Wormhole space. Since the change proposed in the OP falls directly into what I do, I will contribute to the discussion.
Initially this looks like a great idea, but upon further deep thought this has to be the worst idea since GÇÿwormhole stabilizersGÇÖ. This will drive all small groups from doing PVE in Wormhole space entirely. CCP just announced the best incentive for new small groups to move into w-space that I have heard recently, with the ore compression module thingy. This will completely offset that and de-incentivize any small new group from wanting to go into W-space entirely.
I do not have the perspective to comment on how this would impact C5/C6 Capital Escalation bears or their hunters, but it would turn low class systems into barren deserts of endless empty systems.
This change would give me (the bad person who is bad at eve and only shoots defenseless ships) a significant advantage.
I whole heartedly agree that there are issues that need to be addressed. But this change alone is not the solution. There are a few good ideas already out there such as duel statics in C4GÇÖs, fixing Black Holes, and fixing POSGÇÖs. I would suggest we start there.
Praise BOB!
BD
Ps. glad to see devs looking at w-space, just donGÇÖt eff it up!
When I posted several of my responses I was tempted to link you as an example of people effected by this change. I am happy you brought your thoughts to the table. We pretty much do the same thing, only I also do some PvE content every now and then.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts BD !
Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Sambu Ballabumbu
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 05:42:00 -
[542] - Quote
I dont like the Idea of an arbitrary onesided delay at all. Sorry. Its just not helping with anything... If a gank wants to be successfull atm the attacker has to be fast and coordinated and the defender has to make a mistake. Which i think is balanced cuz if both partys bring their "A-game" the result can be a standoff..thats ok. Giving one side an un-counterable advantage and free risk-choice (roll it if u dont like it before it spawns for the locals) is just not good game-design to me. It will drive smaller pve - groups (aka targets!) out of W-space at all.
When reading through the thread i must say i want to give Mrynnas idea a second thought...that loot-trap-mechanic doesnt sound un-interesting... but i can see devils hiding in the details there.
But the key issue we all know is true, is that there are not enuff pvp-targets in W-space. SO if we get more ppl from k-space to travel to w-space in their roaming pvp-fleets wh-dudes have less save farming and more things to shoot at.
That made me wonder what would happen if there was a delay in the appearance in local if you jump OUT of w-space for like 1min. And not only for 0.0 but for ALL of k-space. That ofc would affect therefor ALL spaces:
Highsec: Wars would actually become a more interesting face. ppl could hide their forces in w-holes, which would give them an advantage on their enemy by adding more risk to their tactic, cuz they are now also a w-space-target.
Lowsec: Pretty much the same thing, but i can see a lot of small gangs and FW-dudes make use of this delay. Knowledge of ur local area (exploring all the holes in space) gives the local pirat-gang advantage over the traveling roaming-fleet.
Nullsec: Renters or afk-ratters or bots might cry, which is probably not a bad thing. It might hit the ability of large nulsec-blocs to farm up their war-assets (aka wreccking balls) as fast.
In the end it would reward the k-spacer everywhere to actually scan the system he is in for w-holes. Either to be safe or to make others unsafe. Anyway...W-space gets a USE and a BENEFIT for everybody in the game and its not longer viable for k-spacers to ignor ike 1/3 of the games space. w-spacers would not bee as lonely and become more of a target as well as getting more targets and opportunities. I see a win-win-win-win situation there :D
Just give it a thought ...maybe. |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
66
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 07:26:00 -
[543] - Quote
Confirming Baby Dady is a pretty chill dude Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 07:33:00 -
[544] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:
I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?
Significant? What is that in the sandbox content?
Frankly I find your statement a bit elitist. I've come across very skilled and organized people in C1's, and total noobish clowns in c5-6 class holes. The Class of holes mainly dictates what you fly rather than how good you are at fly it.
Perhaps I was reading you wrong. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
469
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 07:54:00 -
[545] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:Anhenka wrote:
I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?
Significant? What is that in the sandbox content? Frankly I find your statement a bit elitist. I've come across very skilled and organized people in C1's, and total noobish clowns in c5-6 class holes. The Class of holes mainly dictates what you fly rather than how good you are at fly it. Perhaps I was reading you wrong. There are plenty of competent people in c1-4. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But there are not a lot if any large organized PvP corps active enough to distinguish themselves in the WH community as household names. The lower levels simply can't support that many people in one hole, and smaller corps tend to be far less known that larger ones.
From a c5+ standpoint can usually more or less dismiss a c4 or lower corp as a major threat on the basis that they: A: 98% likely to not have enough active members to pose a threat to a escalation fleet due to lack of people and an inability to bring caps. B Won't be evicting anyone in c5 space because of a lack of people and capitals. C Are far less likely to be throwing around the typical pimpfit t3 groups that serve as a force multiplier against less well fit groups.
So less people, no caps, no real threat.
And most groups tend to make their reputations either through frequent larger scale PvP (HK, Sky Fighters, Ragnarok, many others I didn't name), staging evictions of others homes, or by being scary due to ballsy risky moves (BU logoffski traps with Swaglfars).
If you are a c1-4 corp without caps, or a 200 man corp, or begin able to field a 30 man pimpfit t3 fleet, how exactly do you distinguish yourself to stand out from the others? |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 08:04:00 -
[546] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Bjurn Akely wrote:Anhenka wrote:
I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?
Significant? What is that in the sandbox content? Frankly I find your statement a bit elitist. I've come across very skilled and organized people in C1's, and total noobish clowns in c5-6 class holes. The Class of holes mainly dictates what you fly rather than how good you are at fly it. Perhaps I was reading you wrong. There are plenty of competent people in c1-4. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. -snipped-
Aye, I see your point.
Think is... every Predator preys on what they can kill. With that in mind I find it weird that people are advocating different mechanics for different classes of holes. Targets are targets, and it's no harder to find a capital in a C6 than a Drake in a C1. If anything the capital is easier to find, especially if probes are required. There is no significant change in getting a fleet ready for a C6 bash compared to a C2 one. Right Click-Board is what is needed.
|
arabella blood
Revenant Tactical
199
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 08:22:00 -
[547] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Bjurn Akely wrote:Anhenka wrote:
I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?
Significant? What is that in the sandbox content? Frankly I find your statement a bit elitist. I've come across very skilled and organized people in C1's, and total noobish clowns in c5-6 class holes. The Class of holes mainly dictates what you fly rather than how good you are at fly it. Perhaps I was reading you wrong. There are plenty of competent people in c1-4. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But there are not a lot if any large organized PvP corps active enough to distinguish themselves in the WH community as household names. The lower levels simply can't support that many people in one hole, and smaller corps tend to be far less known that larger ones. From a c5+ standpoint can usually more or less dismiss a c4 or lower corp as a major threat on the basis that they: A: 98% likely to not have enough active members to pose a threat to a escalation fleet due to lack of people and an inability to bring caps. B Won't be evicting anyone in c5 space because of a lack of people and capitals. C Are far less likely to be throwing around the typical pimpfit t3 groups that serve as a force multiplier against less well fit groups. So less people, no caps, no real threat. And most groups tend to make their reputations either through frequent larger scale PvP (HK, Sky Fighters, Ragnarok, many others I didn't name), staging evictions of others homes, or by being scary due to ballsy risky moves (BU logoffski traps with Swaglfars). If you are a c1-4 corp without caps, or a 200 man corp, or begin able to field a 30 man pimpfit t3 fleet, how exactly do you distinguish yourself to stand out from the others ?
Everyone has to start somewhere. Dismissing people as irrelevant is stupid when in the sandbox 1 guy is enough to bring down your c6 to his knees - have you forgot about meta gaming? Butterfly effect? Troll for hire. Cheap prices. |
BGed
Recreational Vehicle Enthusiasts Club - WH Chapter Corrosive.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 08:23:00 -
[548] - Quote
After reading the majority of the posts in this thread and living in a wormhole for the past year I have come to the conclusion that K162's should not be scanable period.
That way no one knows who is where. Gankers in your system? Be in their hole. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
36
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 08:26:00 -
[549] - Quote
I want to pose a question regarding the proposed different delay timers. Primarily to CCP Fozzie, but also to the ones suggesting timers.
When you say the delay should be (example):
C1- 1 minute C2- 2 minutes ,,, C6- 6 minutes
What do you mean? Is the C1 timer referring to all holes LEADING TO or GOING FROM the C1? This is highly relevant and interesting to know, agreed?
Thing is.... If it means GOING TO I can see a bleak future for lower class holes. Fleets from C4's (and above via the C4) will swoop down on them like locusts. OK, I exaggerate but I think you can see the problem for the C1 dwellers.
If the timer means delay s holes going to, then the lower class of holes should be more protected, I suppose.
I understand the intent of the proposed changes is to generate more PvP. I also think that (as usual) CCP has a lot more data on the reality than we or at least I do
- How did the Discovery Scanner changes impact ship losses in ISK).
- How large a part of the current total ISK lost is in those high class Capital fight? (My gut feeling is Caps is a minor part but http://www.eve-census.com/ lists number of kills, not ISK).
In short: CCP Fozzie - What is the suggested changes supposed to fix? IT's always easier to come up with good ideas if you know what problem to address. |
Professional Forum Alt
The Witness Protection Program
136
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 08:27:00 -
[550] - Quote
-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-
This is a VERY BAD idea.
So you want to remove WH's only intel tools ? Why are you not removing local in "known" space first ? Number of jumps. people in space, in station and so on?
In WHs, you only chance of knowing (to some extend) what is going on, is to keep a eye on d-scan and number of sigs at all times. Which is not even possible to check both at the same time. The day where EVE has it's PREFECT intel tools removed from known space - sure - add WH space to that list. Until then, please please spend you time on better issues in the game.
-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-Gÿå-
Any typos, spelling errors and bad grammer found, are free and yours to keep |
|
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 08:47:00 -
[551] - Quote
I think it would be OK to have the inbound WH (AKA K162) delayed on the sensor overlay but I think it would be stupid to make it not appear for probes. Making the K162 completely undetectable for a while removes all the tools used to acquire intel from the residents. They will practically be sitting ducks waiting for the bullet to hit. While this may not be a huge problem for large WH entities that can field a farming fleet and still have people on call for escalating if they get jumped, small corps will be hard pressed and very exposed while farming. Come on now, triage/siege lasts for 5 minutes, there is no way you can't hump them if you are half competent even if the residents know you are there.
To those saying that anomalies should be scan-able, BUGGER OFF!!! What, are you nuts? I'm scanning enough as it is now, no need to add more tedious stuff in WHspace.
P.S. Really Fozzie, dungeons? Dungeons, really? Oh, one more thing, maybe you can press the null guys to find a way todelay local in null, that would be a way bigger improvement for whollers and EVE in general. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2463
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 08:53:00 -
[552] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole. I'm sorry but it's elitists like you that think all WH changes should exist to affect those at the top (C5+ dwellers). Sub C5 people are not making BILLIONS like they do running cap escalations. A good C2/C3 corp may pull of close to incursion isk/hr once you factor in all of the extra cost and logistics of living in WH space. And that requires lots of static farming, which is already more risky than C5 cap escalations in your home system. Implementing all of the changes as you say, would render much of Sub C5 space into a ghost town. It's empty enough as it is. What is wrong with simply rolling back the overlay scanner? People seemed pretty happy for years until that came about.
Bingo.
But rolling back the scanner overlay would signal that CCP made a huge mistake, and no way that is gong to happen. I lived in wh's for over a year starting 5 hours after Apochrypha went live, and occasionally take cruises through them even now. That was before all the websites and consolidation took place in the wh community. Wormhole pockets were a scary place then, but manageable. The overlay scanner made things too easy, but this proposal swings the pendulum way way too far the other way.
If the wh conditions with regard to scanning were rolled back to what they were like a year ago, this proposal would not even be needed. So that is precisely what WON'T happen.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 09:02:00 -
[553] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:-snipped-
If the wh conditions with regard to scanning were rolled back to what they were like a year ago, this proposal would not even be needed. So that is precisely what WON'T happen.
Regrettably I think you are right. Humans have a disturbing knack of doing anything but reversing changes that did not turn out that well. It's like we think that nobody will notice we where wrong and we keep touting the old 'this is just making it better'.
So I say again: Bite the bullet. The old system where far superior to the new one and the proposed one. It was easy to understand, identical everywhere and did what the now proposed changes intend to address.
As for the 'probe spamming' argument I just don't see the problem. If yoou don't like it, then do not scan... |
Maxim Hibra
Hedion University Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 09:17:00 -
[554] - Quote
This idea is, quite frankly, absolutely terrible. Now, pvp is fun, and more opportunities for pvp is good. But if you intent to live in a WH, you must do sites to make isk to pay for POS fuel and replace ships. This change would make doing sites pretty much impossible, especially for smaller corps with limited numbers, as you would have no warning at all that a wormhole to a hostile system has opened up until you see their ships on your d-scan, at which point it is likely too late to get to safety (and they could be using cloaky ships so you can't even see them until they land and uncloak). Imagine what would happen if you removed local from nullsec, except this would be even worse. At least even if you remove local, you could still have scouts sitting in all the systems leading to the one you're ratting and hitting the d-can there to see if hostiles are heading to your gate.
I'm going to take a guess that there are no similar plans to remove local from nullsec to introduce a similar element of unknown there (which would really make sense; nullsec is supposed to be mostly unexplored frontier, so why does every system have a perfect communication network?). I wonder why? The conspiracy theorist in me would guess that this change is motivated by the nullsec cartels whining about high class wormholes being too profitable, because God forbid anybody makes as much money as they do, so they want to ruin the WH income and force everybody to move to nullsec and become their renters. Of course, that's just crazy talk. It's not like CCP favours their buddies in the nullsec coalitions over other people...Well, there was the T20-thing, but that's ancient history. It's not like they do stuff like that anymore. Right? |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
12
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 09:45:00 -
[555] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Two step wrote:PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder. yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.
Think I'm going to have to create a couple of trial accounts so that I can like this post a few more times. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1290
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 09:47:00 -
[556] - Quote
I am planning on evicting a lot of people soonish. This change will make keeping people out almost impossible. Please, save evictions and say no to this change. No trolling please |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
498
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 10:32:00 -
[557] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.
We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent). We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.
Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely. Thanks! -Fozzie also could you set up the overlay so that when it is on OFF position, it is really OFF and doesn't sweep when entering new system / undocking station, wich is utterly ridiculous? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13092
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 10:41:00 -
[558] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Fozzie, also consider why it's so hard to find a wormhole on SiSi. Its so hard because they don't get rotated. No one is in them on SiSi, so they stay in the same place and don't get "activated". O RLY? President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
102
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 11:03:00 -
[559] - Quote
Bad idea.
I haven't had a chance to read much in the thread but wanted to express my extreme dislike for changing the current mechanic. The fix to poor gameplay decisions (removing deep space probes) should not involve arbitrary time limits in only one region of space. You instead need to be clear in where you are taking things. If you wanted everyone to see sigs to show people that there are other things in system to explore, then do that.
Put tools in the players hands that will improve and reward skilled and active players, not arbitrary time limits. |
Mcpate
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
19
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 11:31:00 -
[560] - Quote
Just THINK of the RUSSIANS we will DESTROY with this new (non)mechanic
http://youtu.be/s2yDVYj7czQ?t=7m48s |
|
Tsalaroth
BRG Corp Ocularis Inferno
26
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 11:45:00 -
[561] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:
If you wanted to farm safely maybe you should go check out some of that space you're renting out in your signature.
Yes, yes, because attacking him makes you feel better because you can't actually attack his good idea. |
Tsalaroth
BRG Corp Ocularis Inferno
26
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 11:48:00 -
[562] - Quote
Liafcipe9000 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival. Arrival of hostile forces can always be almost instantly detected by using Directional Scans. there's more than one scanner. I highly doubt that delaying the appearance of signatures can affect those who are constantly on their guard and currently there are a lot of people who do not use the directional scanner and get caught with their pants down. if you use all the tools at your disposal to detect incoming hostiles to their full potential, you won't get caught unprepared. I would also like to point at the post above this one and second it. tl;dr: Those who stay alert will still see incoming hostiles in time, whether the signature's appearance is delayed or not.
His "presenting more targets" is silly. Fleet battle target numbers will stay the same. All the current setup does is let us find people who won't fight - eviction targets. |
Tsalaroth
BRG Corp Ocularis Inferno
26
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 11:50:00 -
[563] - Quote
Seriously, if you're going to do this, make logging off in wh space impossible. You don't e-warp, you don't go anywhere, you just float in space until you're podded. Go for full realism or not this half-way stuff, please. This way, log-off traps (the most unrealistic, un-sandboxy bullshit ever, and yes we've used it) become pointless, you get your "hard-mode", and everyone's happy.
Also, the game becomes just a tiny bit more realistic.
Thanks. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
102
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 12:45:00 -
[564] - Quote
I've had a little more time to think about the proposed change and realize it's an even worse idea than I originally thought.
CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above?
For me it's about exploration. I've was doing it before with quests, sifts, an combs. The thought of exploring the vast expanse of space and finding new experiences. The current system has removed any of that wonder. Sigs magically appearing without any effort? Basically only one probe to drop? No significant changes to sleepers in 5 years? T3 subsystem imbalance? Data and relic loot pi+¦atas?
Now this change is proposed, probably due to a vocal minority complaining they can't get ganks. Your challenge is to actually decide what W-space is and develop it so players actually have the tools to create content instead of removing tools in the name of simplicity. I don't play Eve because it's easy. I enjoy a challenge.
I find it hard to believe that an Interceptor gang could not catch anyone on K162 spawn if they're organized. It might actually mean you need to be in fleet supporting your scouts, instead of sitting on the couch watching TV and waiting for the jabber ping.
The proposed change is bad and just trying to cover previous bad decisions. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
431
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 12:53:00 -
[565] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:I've had a little more time to think about the proposed change and realize it's an even worse idea than I originally thought.
CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above?
For me it's about exploration. I've was doing it before with quests, sifts, an combs. The thought of exploring the vast expanse of space and finding new experiences. The current system has removed any of that wonder. Sigs magically appearing without any effort? Basically only one probe to drop? No significant changes to sleepers in 5 years? T3 subsystem imbalance? Data and relic loot pi+¦atas?
Now this change is proposed, probably due to a vocal minority complaining they can't get ganks. Your challenge is to actually decide what W-space is and develop it so players actually have the tools to create content instead of removing tools in the name of simplicity. I don't play Eve because it's easy. I enjoy a challenge.
I find it hard to believe that an Interceptor gang could not catch anyone on K162 spawn if they're organized. It might actually mean you need to be in fleet supporting your scouts, instead of sitting on the couch watching TV and waiting for the jabber ping.
The proposed change is bad and just trying to cover previous bad decisions.
Its a bit simpler actually. The vocal minority want something to shoot. Everytime a wormhole opens up, those on the otherside immediately scatter and pos up.
This would give them 3 to 5 minutes of hole rolled blackout cloak immunity to "gank" them before they pos up.
Its mainly because they don't want to do a pos bash for 2 days (they cant stay online for that long, and the ships needed to bash pos are not the ones you would want to bring in a pvp combat situation). In addition, bashing a pos is not something a small gang wants to do, as they want kills, not a structure grind.
Can't punish people for not fighting besides bubbling everything, and at that point, its a waiting game (and what active pvp combat pilot wants to spend hours upon hours patrolling a bubbled wormhole looking for people who won't leave the pos shield).
The issue is more inherent than a wormhole showing up on your scanner overview. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
102
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 13:07:00 -
[566] - Quote
I'd like more to shoot as well, but this mechanic change really isn't offering that. All it would do is increase ganking of PvE fleets. That type of fight is crap. What should be addressed is altering the PvE content so that PvP ships are viable. Also give different tools to players to allow to generate content.
I think they are heading in a good direction with deployables.
The fact that all sigs show on entry or spawn is crap. There will always be those that run. At least make it so they need to have probes out to detect sigs. People make mistakes in scanning. The way it is now is too passive. |
Moloney
Krannon of Sherwood Carthage Empires
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 13:19:00 -
[567] - Quote
This is f__king stupid.
Leave the damn wormholes alone. The current mechanics do not stop killing in wh space. Look at any kill board!
If you want to do anything for wormhole space, fix the pos roles and pos security related issues.
It's ballanced currently. 1. Enter a k162 - get a kill. (If no one is dscanning) 2. Enter a non-k162 - get a kill. (If no one is dscanning)
3. Defender, has to zip up the wh, dscan incase the enemy is already in the wh, toggle annoms in the Sig scanner because new sigs are not pushed to the client.
And now you want them to ducking die no matter how much vigilance is used!?!?!?! |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
499
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 13:24:00 -
[568] - Quote
Tsalaroth wrote:Seriously, if you're going to do this, make logging off in wh space impossible. You don't e-warp, you don't go anywhere, you just float in space until you're podded. Go for full realism or not this half-way stuff, please. This way, log-off traps (the most unrealistic, un-sandboxy bullshit ever, and yes we've used it) become pointless, you get your "hard-mode", and everyone's happy.
Also, the game becomes just a tiny bit more realistic.
Thanks. at least, make ewarp able to be stopped by bubbles (at least when inside a pos).
being evicting ppl this weekend from a wh, tower is fully covered by bubbles, yet ship kept just warping in and out when ppl logged in / off this is infuriating.
if it is trapped, it's trapped, way too easy to just login in your pod, hop in your shiny and logoff to evade loss of said shiny.... this is broken (indeed, a strat with the correct sub and intys should remain able to do it tho) |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
500
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 13:28:00 -
[569] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:I've had a little more time to think about the proposed change and realize it's an even worse idea than I originally thought.
CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above?
For me it's about exploration. I've was doing it before with quests, sifts, an combs. The thought of exploring the vast expanse of space and finding new experiences. The current system has removed any of that wonder. Sigs magically appearing without any effort? Basically only one probe to drop? No significant changes to sleepers in 5 years? T3 subsystem imbalance? Data and relic loot pi+¦atas?
Now this change is proposed, probably due to a vocal minority complaining they can't get ganks. Your challenge is to actually decide what W-space is and develop it so players actually have the tools to create content instead of removing tools in the name of simplicity. I don't play Eve because it's easy. I enjoy a challenge.
I find it hard to believe that an Interceptor gang could not catch anyone on K162 spawn if they're organized. It might actually mean you need to be in fleet supporting your scouts, instead of sitting on the couch watching TV and waiting for the jabber ping.
The proposed change is bad and just trying to cover previous bad decisions. Its a bit simpler actually. The vocal minority want something to shoot. Everytime a wormhole opens up, those on the otherside immediately scatter and pos up. This would give them 3 to 5 minutes of hole rolled blackout cloak immunity to "gank" them before they pos up. Its mainly because they don't want to do a pos bash for 2 days (they cant stay online for that long, and the ships needed to bash pos are not the ones you would want to bring in a pvp combat situation). In addition, bashing a pos is not something a small gang wants to do, as they want kills, not a structure grind. Can't punish people for not fighting besides bubbling everything, and at that point, its a waiting game (and what active pvp combat pilot wants to spend hours upon hours patrolling a bubbled wormhole looking for people who won't leave the pos shield). The issue is more inherent than a wormhole showing up on your scanner overview. no reason i don't get the same when entering a lowsec / nullsec then, i want to not appear in local chat for 2-3 minutes so my tgt won't rush in station, so i can get easy mining barge / mission runners kills |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
500
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 13:33:00 -
[570] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:I've had a little more time to think about the proposed change and realize it's an even worse idea than I originally thought.
CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above?
For me it's about exploration. I've was doing it before with quests, sifts, an combs. The thought of exploring the vast expanse of space and finding new experiences. The current system has removed any of that wonder. Sigs magically appearing without any effort? Basically only one probe to drop? No significant changes to sleepers in 5 years? T3 subsystem imbalance? Data and relic loot pi+¦atas?
Now this change is proposed, probably due to a vocal minority complaining they can't get ganks. Your challenge is to actually decide what W-space is and develop it so players actually have the tools to create content instead of removing tools in the name of simplicity. I don't play Eve because it's easy. I enjoy a challenge.
I find it hard to believe that an Interceptor gang could not catch anyone on K162 spawn if they're organized. It might actually mean you need to be in fleet supporting your scouts, instead of sitting on the couch watching TV and waiting for the jabber ping.
The proposed change is bad and just trying to cover previous bad decisions. actually, i do play eve because it is NOT easy, like probably most of the subscribers.
tbh, regarding the past 2 years i would really be curious to know how many ppl play this game.
while there are +- the same numbers connected, i see a big trend around, which is less players, and player remaining having more alts, so they can multibox to plex their game time.
and ultimately, they just do that, and participate less and less to fleets and whatnot, resulting in the current emptyness of low / null. then they get bored, and consider more and more leaving the game |
|
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
190
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 13:51:00 -
[571] - Quote
Really torn on this... It seems unfair that the *attackers* who have spawned the wormhole should be allowed to jump through it before the *victim* system has even seen it on scan and started probing it. But at the same time, I don't really like the artificial nature of wormhole spawning.
Current thoughts are - remove whs showing on the 3d overview. But make them appear instantly when scanned with probes like "back in the day"
I'd like to see other around wormholes in general... Like this for example:
Axloth Okiah wrote:More helpful would be automatically spawning both sides of new holes, ie. no "not warping to the static" to keep K162 unspawned.... and delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec, pretty please.
Quincy Thibaud wrote:While you're at it, how about making ships that enter a null or low sec system from a WH in that system have a delayed appearance in local?
Hell yes! |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 14:13:00 -
[572] - Quote
I'm all for not providing free intel, but not being able to get that intel at all is very bad.
It would make ganking PvE fleets waaaay to easy. Just roll static, jump through, hit d-scan, warp cloaked to combat site, tackle stuff and then **** them with your main fleet. Unless they hit d-scan during the exact moment when you switched from gate cloak to CovOps cloak (and are in d-scan range of the hole) they would have no chance at all.
I fear this might lead to people only doing PvE in very large fleets to be able to defend themselves against gank fleets. I doubt anyone in w-space would want this place to become the same N+1 zerg that we currently have in null. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
500
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 14:16:00 -
[573] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:I'd like to see other around wormholes in general... Like this for example: Axloth Okiah wrote:More helpful would be automatically spawning both sides of new holes, ie. no "not warping to the static" to keep K162 unspawned.... and delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec, pretty please. Quincy Thibaud wrote:While you're at it, how about making ships that enter a null or low sec system from a WH in that system have a delayed appearance in local?
Hell yes! agreed, and regarding local, i'd like that any ppl entering a system in low / null, whether from a WH or a gate is being delayed from appearing in local. this would also apply to ppl connecting in system provided they are NOT in station (in this case -> insta appear)
also for cynos, if they come throught a regular cyno -> insta appears in local, if from a covert cyno -> delayed if someone activat a regular cyno, during the timer, he should insta appear in local |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
500
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 14:18:00 -
[574] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:I'm all for not providing free intel, but not being able to get that intel at all is very bad.
It would make ganking PvE fleets waaaay to easy. Just roll static, jump through, hit d-scan, warp cloaked to combat site, tackle stuff and then **** them with your main fleet. Unless they hit d-scan during the exact moment when you switched from gate cloak to CovOps cloak (and are in d-scan range of the hole) they would have no chance at all.
I fear this might lead to people only doing PvE in very large fleets to be able to defend themselves against gank fleets. I doubt anyone in w-space would want this place to become the same N+1 zerg that we currently have in null. you forget something, CCP introduced a new deployable, making an area able to be "off" dscan, in that kind of context, this deployable make sense to be used don't you think?
without having this deplyable, i would agree about the imbalance, but since it does exist, imao it's balanced |
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
335
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 15:07:00 -
[575] - Quote
I'm not a fan. I liked the idea someone proposed where the signature doesn't appear on probe scan until the spawning party has jumped through it, and I don't particularly care for the sensor overlay/discovery scanner since I'm a scout and always use probes and dscan anyway. If anything making the K162 I ride in on while scouting not appear on probe scan would just be annoying while I resolve.
If it were just like pre-Odyssey that would be fine. I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.
Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
262
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 15:12:00 -
[576] - Quote
I'm adding my voice to the idea I've seen pop up a few times of the K162 sig spawning with the "entrance" hole instead of needing the "entrance" hole to be scanned down. I see that as having several specific upsides:
- Increases the connectivity of W-space on the whole, making it more likely that people who are looking for trouble will find it.
- Crashing down your holes and not scanning the new ones is no longer a viable defensive tactic, in fact it can put you at greater risk. Putting your hole critical still works, of course, but increased connectivity might also make it harder to keep your farm system totally locked down.
- Rewards vigilance. You're going to see a lot more new signatures in not just your home hole, but any hole you connect to. You never know who might drop in if you don't keep an eye on things.
- Reduces predictability. You could warp yourself to your new static and find a fleet already waiting for you. If you find a K162, you don't know if someone has already found it from the other side or not.
- Doesn't just reward chain-rollers, in fact it's a slight nerf to chain-rolling for ganks but it looks like it might be better for finding PvP that isn't as one-sided.
- Unpopulated systems are more likely to be connected to, either from their ins or their outs.
I would give this serious thought. Even making it so the K162 spawns a few minutes after the entrance spawns (but independently of whether the entrance is scanned down) would grant most of these benefits, and that would be less of a nerf to chain-rolling for the people who care about that.
I think this would make w-space a more dangerous place without just benefitting one group of w-space residents, and that's something I'm very much in favor of. |
Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
38
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 15:14:00 -
[577] - Quote
I speak as a scout who has scanned chains several days a week for two years now looking for fights.
This proposed change is dumb. If a group of people is paying attention, then good on them. You should not be penalized for playing well. Most of my kills happen because people aren't paying attention despite all available tools.
You want to shake things up? How about making wormhole k162s spawn as soon as their originating side spawns, instead of at warp-to. That way you can't lock all the doors and bear up with impunity. Those annoying as hell corps who flash crash every exit as soon as they're opened into have to grow a pair.
How about making mining sites scannable again so miners get their false sense of security back and mine in WH space again?
How about adding expeditions to WH space with long expiration timers and big rewards to incentivize scanning out big chains over bearing up in your single hole.
Please do not make this change. It is garbage and will not have the intended effect you think it will. |
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
432
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 15:21:00 -
[578] - Quote
Proclus Diadochu wrote:By removing the option for probing and seeing a signature on scan, I feel that this will surely increase the risks and danger to wormholes. That being said, I'm of the opinion that making probing options delayed for any amount of time would unbalance the mechanic. If you can't scan, probe, see, or anything of a K162, then what option does the receiving end have?
This option gives the leg up to the aggressor without providing an alternative to those who are proactive on the receiving end of a wormhole. I am all for changing the discovery scanner to only allow an update upon session change or probing for new signatures, but making a K162 unprobable is not an option I support, Fozzie :)
Sums up my feelings as well.
By all means, delay showing up on the discovery scanner, but allow active probing to pick up the K162 immediately. |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 15:21:00 -
[579] - Quote
Bad idea fozzie.
If you want to promote more pvp in wspace rather make the k162 spawn immidiatly when the source sig spawn (before being warped to). This would bring more fights instead of pve ganks as people couldnt hide behind a closed static but would have to use scouts, bubbles etc to keep controll of wh. |
Sarah Flinnley
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 15:22:00 -
[580] - Quote
The issue that is trying to be addressed here is that as soon as someone warps to a newly discovered WH a couple of things happen. First, the connection get's populated. Then the wormholes other end appears immediately on the Discovery Scanner of anyone on the other side of the hole providing them time to say "Eeek someone's coming! Run!" And get out, arguably before the first guy even lands on the hole. And to top it off, they don't have to do anything to get the info, just ignore a handful of preexisting signatures and wait for a new black line to appear in the display.
Is that correct?
Assuming so, I will venture to state the the solution for this issue doesn't lay at the discovery scanner level but at the layer below. And will say that I believe the problem is that the current mechanics associates WH generation with player activity. AKA. A new wormhole appears in the system and because of that you KNOW that someone is about to enter your system.
So lets hypothetically break that connection. Let's assume that both ends of the wormhole are created at the same time. The decay timer starts as well. I don't have the statistics, but I'm guessing that if all WH connections had an active timer that the majority of connections made would be due to the wormhole decaying and not someone rolling a hole.
Now, the Discovery Scanner shows a new signature pop up in your system. What does that tell you? What would be the effects in WH life?
Short term, I don't think there will be much effect. After all, running away is what they are trained to do. Mid term, the frequency of new holes showing up in their system will begin to have a noticeable impact on their ISK generation so they will begin to ignore it. Lon term... ? More reliance on the directional scanner then we already have?
|
|
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
46
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 15:31:00 -
[581] - Quote
Here's my two sense as a full time WH dweller and someone who runs a w-corp.
Delaying signatures from appearing to probes will put an unneeded damper on the lifestyle of w-people.
Rolling your static for targets our a exit is a big part of our lifestyle. Lets say even in a perfect world where you have enough orcas/caps BS and hics to single pass kill the hole. New sig pops up/scanned down and scouted for targets/connections before rolling. Adding an amount of time with no ability to scan down your replacement static basically is an artificial time sink that [i]removes[/I choice from the players.
Instead were forced to basically sit on our hands waiting for a boring timer. Do sigs need to not automatically ping on your overview? Absolutely they should only be there once you have knowledge of them via active probing. IMO The best way to achieve this without overly ham-handed mechanics is to do what others have suggested.
Require probes out to have new sigs show up, as someone who actively hunts out site runners a lot im totally fine with them having the ability to be vigilant and on the ball in order to see a new connection. If they are spending the time with the prober to keep watch good on them.
I'd rather lose out on a few fights because they were paying attention and say me coming then have people go afk or get bored because you can now only roll 2-4 holes in an hour.
TL;DR
No on delaying ability to probe out new sigs Yes on removing new sigs automaticly showing up on overview/scan UI. Tie this into having probes out and scan results.
Reward people who are active and watchfull and don't force artificial timers on the w-space community |
Rhavas
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
241
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:14:00 -
[582] - Quote
Fozzie - As written it's far too simplistic. I'm with James here - if it's simply a 1/0 equation I don't like it as written. That said, I do like the root of where you're going here. I see two options. 1) Return to pre-Odyssey state. New sigs show up on probes, but not on the scan overlay. This rewards the vigilant and punishes the careless, and that makes Bob smile. 2) Implement a more nuanced and consistent approach to your suggestion. To wit:
- Newly spawned K162s do not appear for either overlay or probes until one of the following threshholds is reached:
- x time passes with no ship jumping in. Initial suggestion: 5 minutes.
- y amount of mass crosses the hole. Initial suggestion: Mass of one heaviest cloak/scan fit T3 cruiser plus a hair more, but not enough for another frigate beyond that.
- z number of total ships pass through the hole. Initial suggestion: 4 ships.
- This applies to ALL K162s in ALL space types, not just wormhole space.
- The above rule threshholds also apply to appearing in Local, along with probe and scan overlay. That is to say, when you jump through a hole into
Brothers Bubbles of Tangra space with a lone CovOps as the first ship within the first minute, you don't appear in Local. This is a consistent, nuanced approach that is in my opinion better balanced. Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary |
Moloney
Krannon of Sherwood Carthage Empires
27
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:46:00 -
[583] - Quote
People in this thread seem to mistakenly believe that the k162 shows up immediately on being activated from the other side.
This may have been true briefly after the patch that brought us the discovery scanner but it is no longer true.
New k162 do not show immediately without refreshing your Sig list.
If dscan is an exceptable function of the game, why is repeatedly toggling the Show Anomalies check box (an identical action) accepted? |
Hel Bent
Durendal Ascending Sindication
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:02:00 -
[584] - Quote
So you convert gravs to anoms so you no longer have to scan them down and now you want to make new sigs invisible? Are you trying to kill wormhole mining entirely? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13092
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:03:00 -
[585] - Quote
the size of the rocks they put out there should tell you they've always been trying to get miners killed President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
39
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:10:00 -
[586] - Quote
Moloney wrote:People in this thread seem to mistakenly believe that the k162 shows up immediately on being activated from the other side.
This may have been true briefly after the patch that brought us the discovery scanner but it is no longer true.
New k162 do not show immediately without refreshing your Sig list.
If dscan is an exceptable function of the game, why is repeatedly toggling the Show Anomalies check box (an identical action) accepted?
THIS.
Hitting that button is JUST THE SAME MECHANIC as hitting Scan and using probes. But using probes takes away assets from gaming. Either a dedicated scout or a high slot of a ship doing... stuff. Therefore it is my opinion that the probe solution is better because that means that in Eves most unforgiving space Intel is your strongest weapon. As it should be, IMO. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
473
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:11:00 -
[587] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:the size of the rocks they put out there should tell you they've always been trying to get miners killed Seems true.
Unfortunately, the easier you make it to catch them, the few targets are actually available.
WH mining should be a lot better and a bit safer than it currently is, on the basis of I can't kill someone that isn't even there.
|
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
39
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:15:00 -
[588] - Quote
Hel Bent wrote:So you convert gravs to anoms so you no longer have to scan them down and now you want to make new sigs invisible? Are you trying to kill wormhole mining entirely?
They probably are. No, I really believe that.
Remember when Greyscale years back did the data on how much ABC ore that came from W-space? Remember how upset the CSM Block People where that Null was not 'teh best at all'? Remember how they wanted to REMOVE the ABC from W-space?
I'd love to see the data on how much ABC flows from W-space these days. I guess equal or more, and this due to the fact that Sigs automatically showing up on the Scanner makes it safer. I have no data to back this guess up though. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13092
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:35:00 -
[589] - Quote
I was under the impression that toggling the "show anomalies" was not a fresh query President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Von Keigai
34
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:38:00 -
[590] - Quote
Moloney wrote:New k162 do not show immediately without refreshing your Sig list. Mostly correct. A K162 will be pushed to everyone in the system if any existing anom or sig goes away.
Quote:If dscan is an exceptable function of the game, why is repeatedly toggling the Show Anomalies check box (an identical action) accepted? It is not a terrible comparison, in that both the discovery scanner and dscan are usable anytime by anyone. Still, dscan has limited range. Also, when dscanning if you miss the 10 second window when the cloaky moves off the wormhole, you never see it. By contrast, twiddling your show anoms is not time-limited -- it will show the new sig at any time after the new sig is spawned.
A better comparison is in the old way people did things, that is, having probes out and hitting scan every so often. But as Bjurn Akely points out, there is a cost to using probes. Namely, you lose a slot and a bit of CPU on each ship that you scan from. This is not much, but it is not nothing. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
|
Tyrant Scorn
131
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 17:56:00 -
[591] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I was under the impression that toggling the "show anomalies" was not a fresh query
It is the best way to detect new signatures. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13092
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:01:00 -
[592] - Quote
I thought the "show" linky thing at the bottom was better for that President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
RudinV
Syndicate of Death BLOOD UNION
34
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:17:00 -
[593] - Quote
The Best things CCP can make for w-space are: 1) make grav sites scannable signatures. 2) Remove this signature appearing thing completely. 3) Fix black holes- its torture to pass trought it. 4) Add may be some PvE content ( yes, i want sleeper Dreadnought...and bpc for it^^) 5) dont know what else, just dont like to stop at 4 |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
281
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:19:00 -
[594] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Two step wrote:PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder. yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.
^^ this Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
http://imgur.com/yEQqAeb |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13092
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:31:00 -
[595] - Quote
regarding my previous comment about why it's so hard to find wormholes on SiSi... it makes sense if it is intended to give an advantage to the player at the head of the wormhole via surprise, and this proposed change also makes sense. the next step in trying to strike a balance using this strategy is dscan.
I'm still not sure what we're commenting on, though. Fozzie didn't define the problem, exactly. President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
473
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:50:00 -
[596] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:regarding my previous comment about why it's so hard to find wormholes on SiSi... it makes sense if it is intended to give an advantage to the player at the head of the wormhole via surprise, and this proposed change also makes sense. the next step in trying to strike a balance using this strategy is dscan.
I'm still not sure what we're commenting on, though. Fozzie didn't define the problem, exactly. The reason it's so hard to find WH's on SiSi is completely unrelated to any proposed changes.
It's because the vast majority of WH's from W-space to K-space are scanned out from the inside out, spawning K162's from the inside.
And on SiSi, with nobody actually living in WH's, there is nobody to scan them out and spawn the K-space exits. The only way to get in is to find a naturally occuring K-space to W-space direction wandering WH.
And with a glance at a chart I have, that looks to be only a few hundred WH's scattered across all of eve where the WH can be scanned down from the K-space side.
Nothing to do with changes.
|
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
259
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:51:00 -
[597] - Quote
Easy there. Delaying the discovery probe is not that big an issue. Delaying whether PROBES can detect a new entrance is kind of rediculous. If it's now too easy to avoid combat, it would make the opposite true. It would be impossible TO avoid combat under this system.
Not to mention that you won't even be able to fight them on a wormhole because you can't scan their wormhole?
STOP listening to only the PVP community just because we ***** the loudest. |
Tyrant Scorn
131
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 18:56:00 -
[598] - Quote
Hey everyone,
My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates.
I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings.
The Poll can be found here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
space chikun
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
111
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:06:00 -
[599] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Its a bit simpler actually. The vocal minority want something to shoot. Everytime a wormhole opens up, those on the otherside immediately scatter and pos up.
This would give them 3 to 5 minutes of hole rolled blackout cloak immunity to "gank" them before they pos up.
Its mainly because they don't want to do a pos bash for 2 days (they cant stay online for that long, and the ships needed to bash pos are not the ones you would want to bring in a pvp combat situation). In addition, bashing a pos is not something a small gang wants to do, as they want kills, not a structure grind.
Can't punish people for not fighting besides bubbling everything, and at that point, its a waiting game (and what active pvp combat pilot wants to spend hours upon hours patrolling a bubbled wormhole looking for people who won't leave the pos shield).
The issue is more inherent than a wormhole showing up on your scanner overview.
I think the risk needs to exist, but not to the extreme Fozzie is proposing. This is game-breaking. I'm one of those folks who enjoy ganking someone who isn't paying attention in WH space - guess what? it still happens. Get a reputation for only ganking people, and folks will POS up. Get a reputation for talking to them afterwards, or maybe even offering a fair fight and follow through? You'll get far, far more fights.
It pains me to say this, but a new type of bear has evolved in wh-space. A PvP-bear. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13096
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:18:00 -
[600] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Rain6637 wrote:regarding my previous comment about why it's so hard to find wormholes on SiSi... it makes sense if it is intended to give an advantage to the player at the head of the wormhole via surprise, and this proposed change also makes sense. the next step in trying to strike a balance using this strategy is dscan.
I'm still not sure what we're commenting on, though. Fozzie didn't define the problem, exactly. The reason it's so hard to find WH's on SiSi is completely unrelated to any proposed changes. It's because the vast majority of WH's from W-space to K-space are scanned out from the inside out, spawning K162's from the inside. And on SiSi, with nobody actually living in WH's, there is nobody to scan them out and spawn the K-space exits. The only way to get in is to find a naturally occuring K-space to W-space direction wandering WH. And with a glance at a chart I have, that looks to be only a few hundred WH's scattered across all of eve where the WH can be scanned down from the K-space side. Nothing to do with changes. correct. and it's been left that way. assuming it is intentional, the next question is why the player at the head of the wormhole is allowed to decide when a k162 spawns (I'll call him "bob"). currently, bob's element of surprise is as good as it can be: the k162 shows up when he decides he is ready to use it. this proposed change extends bob's element of surprise even better, to two minutes after he's there, like a time machine.
I'm just saying that the proposed change is in line with what appears intentional.
also, testing this change on SiSi will be a little weird. (not being able to see the signature of the wormhole you just jumped through) President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
|
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
39
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 19:18:00 -
[601] - Quote
space chikun wrote: ...I think the risk needs to exist, but not to the extreme Fozzie is proposing. This is game-breaking. I'm one of those folks who enjoy ganking someone who isn't paying attention in WH space - guess what? it still happens. ..
Really? On what alt? |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 20:32:00 -
[602] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above? DING DING DING Who knew a half decade of absolutely no design outlook would lead us here!?
Wormholes aren't messed up because you cant catch anyone; they're messed up because for years they've been completely ignored in the long-term design of EVE and left to gather dust in their 'little' corner of EVE. And you wanna pick it up, blow off the dust and wonder why you're not holding '2nd pass of tier 1 frigate' grade balance in your hand. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
39
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 20:43:00 -
[603] - Quote
NinjaTurtle wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above? DING DING DING Who knew a half decade of absolutely no design outlook would lead us here!? Wormholes aren't messed up because you cant catch anyone; they're messed up because for years they've been completely ignored in the long-term design of EVE and left to gather dust in their 'little' corner of EVE. And you wanna pick it up, blow off the dust and wonder why you're not holding '2nd pass of tier 1 frigate' grade balance in your hand.
Personally I'd say that the only thing messed up in wormholes are just the thing CCP Fozzie is looking at right now. Every other problem is a problem for the whole game. Like POS. Sure, it's a pain, but it's no different in Lo. The scanning thing however mucks **** up real bad in W-space. |
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
67
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 20:50:00 -
[604] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:Personally I'd say that the only thing messed up in wormholes are just the thing CCP Fozzie is looking at right now. Every other problem is a problem for the whole game. Like POS. Sure, it's a pain, but it's no different in Lo. The scanning thing however mucks **** up real bad in W-space.
That's a point Bronya brought up to me earlier and it is a good one. If you could correct a few of those major EVE level issues everyone's lives would get easier. I guess there's an aspect of personal metric in there for me in that I enjoy seeing things iterated upon, not necessarily constantly changing but at least in some state of cycle or flux. Deep down I think I'm a bit disappointed with CCP's overall 1st attempt at unmapped space. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Todd Jaeger
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 21:38:00 -
[605] - Quote
Well, technically one could argue the same thing about delayed local really. I mean no matter how hard you try, unless somebody decides to show himself, he can stay hidden.
So WHs are already actively hiding information from you, and it's considered a great thing that shakes up W-Space and makes it interesting...
Suddenly Fozzie is thinking about hiding more, and everybody is afraid because they are so used to the current state. I'm not saying that it's a great idea, but I don't think it's so bad either. |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
282
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 21:39:00 -
[606] - Quote
As a whole, I really think wormholes are fine. They have limited power projection, no local, and yet are a pure sand box. I love them, and I see nothing else needed.
The only downside was the sig scanner change that lets lazy people be uber safe because sigs magically appear--the previous system was the better one.
All they need to do is: delay on scanner, no delay if you are actively [ie, being alert and workig] probing. Alert people should be rewarded; people who let their guard down for an instant punished--in this way, the old system was superior.
This is also why I am fine that grav sites are no longer probable--the lazy miner without security faces sure death (eventually). The alert, non-afk miner can mine. It also makes sense in lore because our warp drive uses large gravitational fields to lock onto when initiating warp (if there is no bookmark). Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
http://imgur.com/yEQqAeb |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan The NME Alliance
48
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 21:49:00 -
[607] - Quote
Two step wrote:Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time. ^This.
I have lived in highsec, nul, and WH space. All areas of the game always have risk involved, even highsec. There is no risk-free space.
The time-based delay should be based on system security of the space the K162 opens into, with the fastest delay for highsec and slowest delay for WH and nulsec. Additionally, gate jumps in k-space could also use a security-based delay. Why just have the delay affect wormholes? I think this can improve the game for all.
For example, wormholes do not have residents/visitors show in local chat until they talk in local. This makes it quite dangerous if you do not utilize d-scan and watch for new signatures. In contrast, k-space (highsec, lowsec, nulsec) shows new residents/visitors in local chat immediately.
A better implementation of OP may be a system-security-based delay to both of these across all of New Eden: new signatures in scanner window and visitors shown in local chat. Ofc, wormholes will still not show players in local chat unless they chat in local. |
Todd Jaeger
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 21:59:00 -
[608] - Quote
Let me actually go deeper.
* Delayed local is actively hiding information from players - regardless of your efforts to find them (there are no probes that tell you who is in system). It's effects are what make WH space so interesting.
* An ever changing W-space network is actively hiding information, because it's very unlikely that you have people checking sigs in every system of your chain. You may know about the sigs of the system you farm in, but you probably don't know about the system next door.
If anyone wants to know the second somebody rolls into you, it's not different from people wanting to stay local in k-space, so they can POS up their carrier the second they get a +1 neutral in local.. I think this would refine W-space to make it even more unknown and uncertain, reducing the safety of farming and promoting more PvP by making chain-rolling viable at all.
It's hypocrisy that information should be available to the pilot if he wanted to, but shun k-space for serving similar information on a silver platter (admit it, all of you wormhole people make fun about local in k-space). |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan The NME Alliance
48
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 22:12:00 -
[609] - Quote
Todd Jaeger wrote:admit it, all of you wormhole people make fun about local in k-space. Well yeah, ofc.
Spend any amount of time consistently in w-space and you find yourself wanting to shoot neutrals whenever you visit highsec. < must resist > lol.
|
Rain6637
Team Evil
13109
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 22:36:00 -
[610] - Quote
if it's a problem that players want to leave their hole locked down and quietly eat cake (not a surprise), I think the better change would be removing the option of locking down a hole.
this proposed change isn't going to cause anyone to change their play style, or make anyone stop using a lockdown protocol.
especially when wormhole space's natural state is isolation (RE: SiSi), I don't see this change making a difference... certainly not the kind of difference that can be seen in the numbers that fozzie will look at.
I hope signatures are turned into something that can be balanced. I think it would have been done by now if signature use was a mandatory part of gameplay for everyone. (because right now, signature use is largely optional in k-space)
signatures are one of the most unsophisticated aspects of the game: all ships and all players of any skill level receive the same information with the same efficiency. that's not really in the spirit of EVE, and neither is this change.
dumb all the things! President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
|
ROSSLINDEN0
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
227
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 22:42:00 -
[611] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Hey everyone, My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates. I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings. The Poll can be found here:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform
Where/when can we see the results |
Winthorp
1404
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 22:51:00 -
[612] - Quote
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:Tyrant Scorn wrote:Hey everyone, My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates. I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings. The Poll can be found here:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform Where/when can we see the results
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewanalytics
Needs more people using it though, but if this threadnaught is anything to go of to compare it too then CCP Fozzie is going it alone with these drastic changes. (Insert witty signature here) |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's Infinite Anarchy
127
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:05:00 -
[613] - Quote
Todd Jaeger wrote:
If anyone wants to know the second somebody rolls into you, it's not different from people wanting to stay local in k-space, so they can POS up their carrier the second they get a +1 neutral in local..
Or have the opportunity to reship and greet the would-be gankers in a ship and a fleet they can organize a fight against rather than just get ganked.
Let's face it this is nothing more than a "promoting of ganking" proposed mechanic. Plain and simple and if that's how you get your rocks off then go gank in high sec and suffer the sec loss penalty.
Even better, looking at your post again, you remove local from Null, see how that goes and then when they put the fires out in Jita realise that they aren't going to want that anymore than we want this.
TL;DR Wormholes were never broken they got broken by CCP dumbing the game down for empire and forgetting we were still there and the same changes couldn't apply. Now it's a backpedal race to try and fix it but by people who spend all their game time in Null.
Silly sausages all of them.
AdW
|
Kynric
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
52
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:05:00 -
[614] - Quote
One more thing to consider is the interplay of passive vs active remote sensing. Before odyssey, you had to drop probes if you wanted to know what signatures filled a system. That active searching could not be done (even with deep space probes) without periodically uncloaking and dropping probes. Post Odyssey those sigs were given out for free. The skill, thought and preparation which a scout utilized counted for a bit more than it does today and was a much more interesting game of cat and mouse. The scout and the sentry in pre odyssey days had interesting choices which odyssey designed out and that this proposed change will further diminish.
The proposed change in my opinion gets it all wrong. A better change would be to move wormholes into a category that requires active probes for observation. Reverting to requiring probes for all places of interest would be acceptable as well. |
GulfXray
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:13:00 -
[615] - Quote
FWIW, I can't support the initial proposal.
What I can support 100% is removing the Discovery/Overlay Scanner. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:24:00 -
[616] - Quote
Tyrant Scorn wrote:Hey everyone, My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates. I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings. The Poll can be found here:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform
I really wish that first question had an extra response of "No, the WH should spawn when someone first lands on grid with it." as this and WH's requiring the need to be scanned down, not auto displaying would completely solve all issues I have with WH's spawning and remove any need for a delay.
And I'm going to reiterate that until CCP Fozzie give a more clear direction what "Minutes" means to him, all discussion on this is pointless. A 1 minute delay is a big difference to a 20 minute delay and it seems people for this are looking at the short end of that with people against looking at the long end. |
Winthorp
1404
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:30:00 -
[617] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote: And I'm going to reiterate that until CCP Fozzie give a more clear direction what "Minutes" means to him, all discussion on this is pointless. A 1 minute delay is a big difference to a 20 minute delay and it seems people for this are looking at the short end of that with people against looking at the long end.
Agreed, while even us would have great fun ganking people all over the place with Fozzies desired changes here but in 6 months time those downtrodden folk that have been ganked every few days even though they have been active and vigilant at their keyboards will just leave for a simpler life and we go back to two year ago when WH's were a desolate place.
I think a lot of people me included have noticed how active and full Wh space has been the last 6months to year and i dont want us to take a step backwards. (Insert witty signature here) |
mulgrew Zero
Weyland Mulgrew Corporation Dominatus Atrum Mortis
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:32:00 -
[618] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.
if you need to change whspace more then this seems best option or just take us back to the old system that worked quite well for most of us |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
104
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:52:00 -
[619] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
If the goal is to increase the sense of danger, a delay in K162 sig appearing is not the way to do it.
I think the main goal you're trying to do is to prevent farming of sites. People that don't want to fight, won't. Anything you do with a K162 timer is not going to change that. All you're doing is listening to a bunch of gankers that want kills on unsuspecting site runners.
If you want danger, how about randomizing w-space. It has been deconstructed so much that there is no sense of mystery. Remove the system names, randomly link different types of wormholes, mix up "statics", dynamic sleeper sites, random system effects, deployables that provide false intel, etc.
Please focus on the big picture!
Not on some arbitrary time delay, so Two Step can drop 30 T3s on a couple drakes in a C2 and crap up local with "gf". |
Kynric
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
54
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:58:00 -
[620] - Quote
Winthorp wrote: I think a lot of people me included have noticed how active and full Wh space has been the last 6 months to a year and i don't want us to take a step backwards.
I agree completely. It would be a shame if rare species like the "pi pickup rorqual" or "gas site ratting pheonix" were to be completely removed from the wild. |
|
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
475
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:02:00 -
[621] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote: If you want danger, how about randomizing w-space. It has been deconstructed so much that there is no sense of mystery. Remove the system names, randomly link different types of wormholes, mix up "statics", dynamic sleeper sites, random system effects, deployables that provide false intel, etc.
Not on some arbitrary time delay, so Two Step can drop 30 T3s on a couple drakes in a C2 and crap up local with "gf".
Ohhh... That hurts my head.
You want to try living in WH's without a consistent income source, third party tools like reliable WH mapping software, and destroying the strategic choices on choosing a WH based on Class, WH effect, and what static it has? While making sure every PvE group has to be able to deal with the maximum potential (dynamic) spawn of any site?
Home a pulsar one day? NOT ANYMORE, it's a Wolf-Rayet now! Good luck using your shield ships!
Nice c1 WH... Shame all the currently spawned anomalies are c4 ones you can't run.
Honestly. There are bad ideas, like the OP. But this one... this is priceless in a truly special sort of way. If I were looking fro a way to make WH space vacant in a hurry, I don't think I could have proposed better. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1295
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:06:00 -
[622] - Quote
This won't only have an effect on people running sites, but what about invasions? Chain rolling for someones wormhole becomes an almost risk free venture. No one knows it's there because it's delayed, but the enemy fleet starts pooring in. I personally love the race to the new sig. No trolling please |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:22:00 -
[623] - Quote
I'm going to drop off this thread now, there's no point continuing on until CCP Fozzie starts talking. This thread is too long and we're at the point where people are just rehashing things they've said previously to people who aren't reading all 30 pages. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just the feeling I'm getting from the last like dozen pages...
Before I do though, here's my collected thoughts.
CCP Fozzie, decloak and engage or jump back to HS
K162's spawn in the destination system when warp is INITIALISED to the WH from the original system The discovery scanner, when used like Dscan, gives instant intel on new signals. Under the current system, if you roll your static before you start doing sleeper sites and use the discovery scanner as above, you are immune to EVERYONE trying to attack you as you can react and leave before they even jump the wormhole. Capitals and login traps excluded. THIS is why people are advocating for a delay. A SHORT delay, 60 to 120 SECONDS would fix this. Anymore than 5 MINUTES (Even that's pushing it) would be way too excessive and I am against that.
Or this could be fixed correctly 0% signals should not show up automatically in the discovery scanner for W-Space Only display once scanned by a probe, like the old working system. WH's should only spawn when someone lands on grid with it.
Ore Sites should be back to scannable. WH polarisation should be based of a ship stat rather than a default static value for everyone, I suggest Sensor Strength to give an additional use for bigger ships and ECCM modules. |
Todd Jaeger
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:23:00 -
[624] - Quote
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:Todd Jaeger wrote:
If anyone wants to know the second somebody rolls into you, it's not different from people wanting to stay local in k-space, so they can POS up their carrier the second they get a +1 neutral in local..
Or have the opportunity to reship and greet the would-be gankers in a ship and a fleet they can organize a fight against rather than just get ganked. Let's face it this is nothing more than a "promoting of ganking" proposed mechanic. Plain and simple and if that's how you get your rocks off then go gank in high sec and suffer the sec loss penalty. Even better, looking at your post again, you remove local from Null, see how that goes and then when they put the fires out in Jita realise that they aren't going to want that anymore than we want this. TL;DR Wormholes were never broken they got broken by CCP dumbing the game down for empire and forgetting we were still there and the same changes couldn't apply. Now it's a backpedal race to try and fix it but by people who spend all their game time in Null. Silly sausages all of them.
Yes it would promote ganking. And that is bad because? ...
Ganking a farming fleet of anyone who has a clue about W-Space is really hard. Most of the time it's just bad people or carebears that get ganked in sleeper sites though.
Those who have a clue about how to farm properly can do it safely with impunity (except prepared log-on traps). Bubbles, pickets, extreme site running speed (10-15 minutes) and the fact that a new inbound signature most likely does not have a full fleet assembled and ready the second it spawns - makes it almost safe. If you just do marauders, MJD out.
For the most part, W-Space PvP is this:
a) Consensual PvP. This is mostly between the larger entities. One comes and says "Wanna play?" and then both brawl and have a good time. b) Log-on traps. Just look at Quantum Explosion's killboard. c) Sieges (basically an extension of Log-On traps). Happen kind of rarely - probably least desirable for all parties involved. d) Ganking farming fleets.
This is a result because nobody "roams" with fleets in W-Space like nullsec people do. FIghts don't escalate at POSes or SOV structures. These instances above summarize W-Space pvp pretty much. The proposed change would make d) more viable against people who are almost immune to it.
For those who are already bad it wouldn't make a difference, since they seem to be bad enough that we can catch them on a regular basis. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
475
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:31:00 -
[625] - Quote
Todd Jaeger wrote: For those who are already bad it wouldn't make a difference, since they seem to be bad enough that we can catch them on a regular basis.
There is nobody so bad they they can't get worse.
And when the going gets tough, the weak pack up and leave, then nobody gets to kill them in WH's ever. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
104
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:33:00 -
[626] - Quote
Anhenka wrote: Ohhh... That hurts my head.
You want to try living in WH's without a consistent income source, third party tools like reliable WH mapping software, and destroying the strategic choices on choosing a WH based on Class, WH effect, and what static it has? While making sure every PvE group has to be able to deal with the maximum potential (dynamic) spawn of any site?
Home a pulsar one day? NOT ANYMORE, it's a Wolf-Rayet now! Good luck using your shield ships!
Nice c1 WH... Shame all the currently spawned anomalies are c4 ones you can't run.
Honestly. There are bad ideas, like the OP. But this one... this is priceless in a truly special sort of way. If I were looking fro a way to make WH space vacant in a hurry, I don't think I could have proposed better.
I'm not proposing anything like that. You're taking what I would like to see to extremes and not considering the possibilities. I don't really want to have the thread head in a different direction but I will clarify a little.
The changes don't need to be so dramatic and I think people could easily adjust, rather than knowing that their system always spawns a C2 static and running the forgotten whatever has these frigates as triggers. Maybe 90% it's C2, but sometimes the static is a C1 or C3. Maybe you're in a pulsar and you notice that occasionally there is an increase in intensity of color emanating from the pulsar which you know gives everyone an additional 10% shield hp since you've been living there and have noticed. I would much rather see w-space offer some mysteries than have everything explained and wikified. I would prefer a more intuitive method of gameplay that involves sound and visual cues which require knowledge and skill not some 3rd party spreadsheet that explains every aspect down to the hundredth decimal. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1295
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:39:00 -
[627] - Quote
Todd Jaeger wrote:
Stuff and things
The issue is that no sig should be "unscanable" for any amount of time if you actively have probes out. It's doesn't even make any sense.
"it's there and people can jump through it for x amount of minutes, but you can't scan it".
We are talking about going from one extreme (sigs popping up on overlay without scanning) to the other (you can't scan it for x amount of minutes). Just put it back the way it was and make people scan for grav sites again. Quit "fixing" what's not broken.
No trolling please |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
475
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:50:00 -
[628] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote: The changes don't need to be so dramatic and I think people could easily adjust, rather than knowing that their system always spawns a C2 static and running the forgotten whatever has these frigates as triggers. Maybe 90% it's C2, but sometimes the static is a C1 or C3. Maybe you're in a pulsar and you notice that occasionally there is an increase in intensity of color emanating from the pulsar which you know gives everyone an additional 10% shield hp since you've been living there and have noticed. I would much rather see w-space offer some mysteries than have everything explained and wikified. I would prefer a more intuitive method of gameplay that involves sound and visual cues which require knowledge and skill not some 3rd party spreadsheet that explains every aspect down to the hundredth decimal.
Ok, we can basically ignore small 10%ish changes in WH effects, especially on the lower end of the classes.
As far as shifting statics, either the mass limit continues to be determined by the lower level (so that c4's or lower can't bring in caps), or they are altered so that the higher static class WH determines mass limits, in which case we get people from higher levels piling more mass then intended into a lower class. If the mass is determined by the lower limit, then nothing changes overall. Just means you roll your static one more time on the rare occasion you connect to a class you didn't want.
"Dynamic spawns" Just means you always have to bring enough to deal with even the worst possible cases of triggering unidentifieable wave triggers. It's just bad design to force everyone to use ships capable to dealing with double or triple spawns because RNG made the ships shot early the trigger.
As to "intuitive method of gameplay that involves sound and visual cues which require knowledge and skill":
No. Hell no. Never, ever, ever. I and many others play on potato visual settings, with the sound off because I'm being social on coms, multiboxing, and listening to music. If I need to have clients high enough to impart important information via visual effects, and have the sound high enough to let me always determine important audio information, then that greatly cuts into my ability to do things like watch movies or talk on coms, or simply not have my computer explode due to running 5 clients on high settings. No. All information needs to be in a format easily available even at lowest settings with the sound off. |
Todd Jaeger
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:54:00 -
[629] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:Todd Jaeger wrote:
Stuff and things
The issue is that no sig should be "unscanable" for any amount of time if you actively have probes out. It's doesn't even make any sense. "it's there and people can jump through it for x amount of minutes, but you can't scan it". We are talking about going from one extreme (sigs popping up on overlay without scanning) to the other (you can't scan it for x amount of minutes). Just put it back the way it was and make people scan for grav sites again. Quit "fixing" what's not broken.
The argument "If it aint broke, don't fix it" is just deeply flawed in that it prevents change and improvement. And it's not about sense. It's about changing the meta. There really isn't much in EVE that makes much sense anyway.
But if you want an EVE reason: After the singularity collapses the spacetime continuum is distorted immediately forming a wormhole. During that process exotic particles are generated that quickly decay, emitting radiation in the process. After a few minutes that radiation is strong enough to be picked up by sensor equipment. There you go. It all makes sense now.
And the overlay is NOT extreme since the only moment when you truly care about it (notably farming) everybody spammed scan on their probe picket before that change. So really, all the sensor overlay changed is reduce the workload (and make it easier for lazy people to get the same information). |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 00:55:00 -
[630] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:I'm going to drop off this thread now, there's no point continuing on until CCP Fozzie starts talking. This thread is too long and we're at the point where people are just rehashing things they've said previously to people who aren't reading all 30 pages. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just the feeling I'm getting from the last like dozen pages...
Before I do though, here's my collected thoughts.
CCP Fozzie, decloak and engage or jump back to HS
K162's spawn in the destination system when warp is INITIALISED to the WH from the original system The discovery scanner, when used like Dscan, gives instant intel on new signals. Under the current system, if you roll your static before you start doing sleeper sites and use the discovery scanner as above, you are immune to EVERYONE trying to attack you as you can react and leave before they even jump the wormhole. Capitals and login traps excluded. THIS is why people are advocating for a delay. A SHORT delay, 60 to 120 SECONDS would fix this. Anymore than 5 MINUTES (Even that's pushing it) would be way too excessive and I am against that.
Or this could be fixed correctly 0% signals should not show up automatically in the discovery scanner for W-Space Only display once scanned by a probe, like the old working system. WH's should only spawn when someone lands on grid with it.
Ore Sites should be back to scannable. WH polarisation should be based of a ship stat rather than a default static value for everyone, I suggest Sensor Strength to give an additional use for bigger ships and ECCM modules.
And since I forgot to add it
The comsic anomaly, the thing you scan down, doesn't sit exactly on the WH itself, it's anywhere from a few metres to a few kilometre's. Those who remember back when this entity could decloak you know this well. This deviation also means that the WH's exact location changes over DT as the WH entity itself is respawned. As such, warping to zero on a pre DT BM of a WH can mean you end up 5-6 kilometres away after DT. The current deviation amount feels like a bug and either should be
Fixed so they sit exact on top of one another at all times Made into a feature where the deviation is made anywhere up to 125km away from the cosmic anomaly. Making it into a feature would also allow some crazy things like respawning the WH itself on the same grid in a different location every hour or so. Would certainly make WH fights interesting if the WH was shifting around on grid every so often. |
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5016
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 02:49:00 -
[631] - Quote
Delaying the appearance of the K162 dungeon is a misdirected attempt to solve an invented problem.
If one side of the WH is visible, the other side should be visible. Just stick with both ends of the wormhole retaining their existing signatures. Do not convert one end to a K162 just because someone warped to the other end. Thus you remove the problem you invented for yourselves, way back in Apocrypha when that original design decision was made to allow intel to be gathered by people paying attention to the game.
And while we're in the process of removing intel options in the misguided quest to "improve PvP", why not switch null sec to delayed local?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
zoonr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 03:18:00 -
[632] - Quote
This change only make sense if the same is done for local in every part of Eve, for pilots entering a system via a stargate or a WH. They should not appear in local for the same amount of time (may be linked to the mass of their ship as suggested).
otherwise, it will unfairly affect the W H players.
CCP, please stay fair in this issue. As the concept is a good one, but there is no reason to only apply it only to WH residents. |
Sith1s Spectre
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
795
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 05:17:00 -
[633] - Quote
So, with these proposed changes it's gonna make seeding caps real easy.
Send the caps through and safe log them even before they have time to see the sig pop up on their overview.
What could possibly go wrong with that idea.
Sky Fighters - WH Space Mercs. -áFor more details https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286708&find=unread
|
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's Infinite Anarchy
127
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 08:18:00 -
[634] - Quote
Todd Jaeger wrote:
Yes it would promote ganking. And that is bad because? ...
Ganking a farming fleet of anyone who has a clue about W-Space is really hard. Most of the time it's just bad people or carebears that get ganked in sleeper sites though.
Those who have a clue about how to farm properly can do it safely with impunity (except prepared log-on traps). Bubbles, pickets, extreme site running speed (10-15 minutes) and the fact that a new inbound signature most likely does not have a full fleet assembled and ready the second it spawns - makes it almost safe. If you just do marauders, MJD out.
For the most part, W-Space PvP is this:
a) Consensual PvP. This is mostly between the larger entities. One comes and says "Wanna play?" and then both brawl and have a good time. b) Log-on traps. Just look at Quantum Explosion's killboard. c) Sieges (basically an extension of Log-On traps). Happen kind of rarely - probably least desirable for all parties involved. d) Ganking farming fleets.
This is a result because nobody "roams" with fleets in W-Space like nullsec people do. FIghts don't escalate at POSes or SOV structures. These instances above summarize W-Space pvp pretty much. The proposed change would make d) more viable against people who are almost immune to it.
For those who are already bad it wouldn't make a difference, since they seem to be bad enough that we can catch them on a regular basis.
No you're wrong sorry. You've listed the above and also listed the counters for it. For every single one there is a recreation and a counter for that recreation if the player/s are committed enough to doing it. So if you want to gank a farming fleet you have already said there IS a way of doing it it's just not YOUR way of doing it because it requires dedication time and planning.
So instead you opt for a mechanic that has absolutely NO counter at all because you're lazy and probably who the instant overlay was designed for anyway.
What I think myself Bane, Proc and a whole slew of people are trying to tell you is this .......... if you move WH's from "safe if vigilant" to "absolutely no chance of seeing potential threats until you are pointed and bubbled" you are not only going to remove people from those WH's in their droves but they also take the ganks you are looking for with them.
Short term thinking man.
AdW
|
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 08:43:00 -
[635] - Quote
Look, you can arbitrarily hide w/e information comes to mind from players. You can make ships invisible for DScan for 5 minutes after passing a WH (wh polarizes the hull so dscan waves bend around it) or you can say that when a K162 is forced to open in a system it send an EMP waves that disturbs all ship sensors in said system or w/e. This is sci-fi so why not? Are changes in that register good for the game? I would say no.
I understand and agree that spoon feeding information is also bad. I hate local in Kspace with a passion, no way to grab someone that doesn't want to be grabbed unless you devote a stupid amount of time stalking them until they lose patience and make a mistake.
That being said the only balanced change to make (in my opinion) is to make signatures discover-able only via probes. Such a change will not spoon feed information but it will make it available for the people looking for such information. Oh, and also make the WH naturally spawn at both ends regardless if they are scanned/warped to or not.
Or you could make so that K162 spawns will send a brachion wave that shuts off all ships in system for 10 minutes (that will get some ganks going on for both large and small corps out-there) .
|
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 09:06:00 -
[636] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:I speak as a scout who has scanned chains several days a week for two years now looking for fights.
This proposed change is dumb. If a group of people is paying attention, then good on them. You should not be penalized for playing well. Most of my kills happen because people aren't paying attention despite all available tools.
You want to shake things up? How about making wormhole k162s spawn as soon as their originating side spawns, instead of at warp-to. That way you can't lock all the doors and bear up with impunity. Those annoying as hell corps who flash crash every exit as soon as they're opened into have to grow a pair.
How about making mining sites scannable again so miners get their false sense of security back and mine in WH space again?
How about adding expeditions to WH space with long expiration timers and big rewards to incentivize scanning out big chains over bearing up in your single hole.
Please do not make this change. It is garbage and will not have the intended effect you think it will.
If any change then this is the only sensible. Stop making k162 dependant on player action. |
Dring Dingle
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
125
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 09:09:00 -
[637] - Quote
Fozzie.. if you do this.. at the very least you need to put ORE Anoms back to Signatures if even only in WH space...
Its one thing to have a ship in a combat anom 'combat ready' for delayed intell on potential baddies in system (or a potential link)... but AGAIN industry in wh's will take another hit.
This would almost make a corp that wants to produce its own ships in wh space impossible to run. You simply wont get the materials. (not that i believe there are any left doing this after odessy)
Wormholes sales was flooded with holes with rorquals for sale when the first change hit. This one will just change it to a barren wasteland even more full of carebare site runners that only have ships for killing sleepers... and backup ships for killing sleepers in their SMA.
Pvp stats will probably improve... but you will be stripping any of the depth to gameplay in this area of eve.
You will be left with: - Those who brave running sleeper sites - And those who like to gank brave people running sites, because they will be able to enter, cloak and have a 'X' minute window of effective invulnerability, giving whomever is already in the system 1 second to click dscan at the correct moment to catch them before they cloak.
o7 |
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 09:17:00 -
[638] - Quote
Disclaimer: this is not my wormhole character, I'm too lazy to log over.
In my eyes it would be way over the top if the incoming sig were undetectable. If you cannot scan it down it becomes impossible to get a warning even if you are attentive. While I'd love if people wouldn't immediately scatter once I warp to the WH and the K162 spawns not giving them any way to detect there are hostiles inbound is not balanced either.
I'd love to see a way that offers protection to those who pay attention but punishes those who don't. That said I also found the constant spamming of d-scan and/or the probes exceedingly annoying, but it's preferable to the automated warning that's present now as well as the almost guaranteed gank that was proposed.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
166
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 11:44:00 -
[639] - Quote
Fozzie, It would be nice if you said something like "OK I get it - no delay" or "Screw you Bane Nucleus - I'm doing this anyway"
You have enough back and forth to make a decision, so make one. This thread is long enough, the horse is dead, corpse beaten, over stated, re hashed, circle logic complete........
Make a decisions and move on to the next item. It's gone from good discussion to the same bleating over and over.
I stuck a fork in it...... It's done. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
29
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 12:39:00 -
[640] - Quote
Fozzie and CSMs, sorry for the earlier grouching in this thread. It took me a while to understand the impact of the proposed changes.
Let me explain my thoughts on why this could actually work with some tweaking (mainly low class WH dweller point of few):
Who would benefit form that change? Not only can C5 and C6 groups roll their statics to other C5+s more reliably in one go but also with about half the number of accounts involved compared to a typical lower class WH static. While C5+ groups with lower class static GÇ£shouldGÇ¥ have the numbers to abuse the proposed mechanic to their advantage, who chain rolls lower class WH statics for PvP anyways? Way to painful, way too few targets! It is needless to say that most lower class WH groups donGÇÖt have the numbers to roll in one go on a daily basis. Most of their PvP (from my experience) comes from their chain or people trying to crush connection a WH or do something else foolish. The main benefiter from the proposed changes would be C5+ dwellers with a static that allows for capitals to pass. They could chain roll till they find their prey. Only chance to adapt to that threat at this point would be a lucky d-scan before the scout cloaks. After that something is tackled and the fleet on standby has a warpin. Also not mentioned before: This would also apply to not activated WHs in your chain. This change would clearly benefit groups that scout their surroundings. Something I like doing. nüè
Is this balanced? I think the negative impact for lower class WH dwellers would be far less severe than anticipated in this thread. Again: Who chain rolls lower class WHs for PvP? In my experience you roll for a new chain but chain rolling for PvP in the static not so much. The fear of C6 guys rolling their C4 static for PvP is more or less hypothetical. However, I think this can be addressed with little tweaking. More on this later.
So what about C5+ capital escalation farmers? Well, if C5+ PvPers start chainrolling like mad the 5-men-alt-farming-group will be screwed. I could care less. But what would be the impact for the GÇ£realGÇ¥ dwellers? It is not uncommon to have 20+ dreadnoughts in your GÇ£home fortressGÇ¥ (I was told that a certain group moved more than 100 dreads when they moved to a new home) and I am certain that larger groups can easily adapt to the proposed changes. The aggressor can only bring so and so many ships. But to be honest I know too little about GÇ£big scaleGÇ¥ WH engagements and can only speculate here.
One thing is sure; this will certainly raise the barrier for new groups to move into a C5 or higher.
Tweaking for the C1 guy that didnGÇÖt sign up for the same risk as the C6 guys? While I think this could actually work, there are some severe drawbacks. Only going to talk about one here: GÇ£C1 guys did not sign up for the same risk as the C6 guysGÇ¥
This needs to be addressed.
A potential better solution than the stuff suggested already would/could be an actual delay base on the WH class difference, e.g.
Standard Delay = sD (This is a set constant, for instance this could be 55 s) Incoming WH class = Ic Target WH class = Tc Actual Delay = aD
If incoming WH class (Ic) is equal to the target WH class (Tc) the actual delay (aD) is: aD = sD. If incoming WH class (Ic) is greater than the target WH class (Tc) the actual delay (aD) is: aD = sD * 1/[2*(Iw-Tw)] and If Ic < Tc the actual delay is: aD = sD * 1/[2*(Tw-Iw)].
This means that a C6-C4 connection which got activated from the C6 side would only give -+ of the standard delay. However if it got opened from the C4 side (K162 from the C6 side) the C4 guys would have four times the standard delay to assemble a fleet. This still does not protect C4 guys from C6 guys coming via a C3 ->C4 static that the C6 guys opened. But hey good scouting needs to be rewarded and the backup is probably a few WH out then. This is a very simplistic formula. It would be just as easy to factor in the target system class by adding another factor, e.g. *6/(7-Tc). To a degree that C1-C3 dwellers almost feel no difference.
Do I like this idea? Not realy! I fear that this mechanic could result in too random ganks. I really like to be in control of the risks I take and we take risks every day in WHs. That is what we came in for! Also I think that a broad spectrum of activities should be accomplishable in WH space, including mining. People should come to w-space not only for sleepers, PI and pew. My little group would be severely impacted by these changes since we make our ISK in our C5 static and this would become a target for chain rolling and the delay. I guess we can adapt. C5s should not be risk free. nüè This would be very rewarding for groups that scout a lot. Maybe we can get the same delay for local if we enter k-space from WHs??? Please, these null bears need to be ganked!
If capital escalation farming is the problem you try to fix maybe there are simpler solutions? A SleeperAssemblyLine at the sun comes to mind. This is an NPC structure at the sun that assembles the sleepers while pulling resources and energy directly from the sun. This structure could have a RF timer in the range of 6h and if it gets destroyed no more sleepers will spawn in that system until it reassembles itself a month later. Also all remaining sleepers will flee to other systems. There is your conflict driver without the stupid POS bashing. Static farmers already take high risks, home farmers need to defend these structure. Also capital escalations spawns could be changed so a lot more teamwork (more than triage, web and blab) is needed to clear them.
If lack of pew is the problem? Give groups a way to increase the chance of incoming K162s from similar class WHs. Make WHs attractive for more people, e.g. fix these old POSes and risk to assets which makes it hard to recruit in a game like EvE. |
|
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan The NME Alliance
48
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 13:13:00 -
[641] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:If lack of pew is the problem? Give groups a way to increase the chance of incoming K162s from similar class WHs. Make WHs attractive for more people, e.g. fix these old POSes and risk to assets which makes it hard to recruit in a game like EvE. Wormholes need occupants in every hole. The attraction/benefit for wormhole life needs to be good enough that the gates are flooded with new people. Good, bad, or otherwise those new occupants will make some isk and die, others will make a lot of isk. Point is, the resources that are currently not used in many many wormholes will see the light of day.
The downside of this, just like in populating nulsec, is that with overcrowding will come more contact between occupants. Or is this an upside? It could be good or bad, depending on your perspective. So fix black holes, pos security, corporation allowed numbers (actually ccp may have fixed this recently), and allow for the possibility of an entire large-population corp to occupy a single pos. Not like you would WANT to keep all your eggs in one basket, but a super-pos only for wormholes may just influence more to live there.
|
Nix Anteris
Bite Me inc Bitten.
162
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 13:25:00 -
[642] - Quote
I realise I'm late to the party, and I don't want to read 32 pages, so apologies if this has been suggested.
I was originally quite vocal about the original changes, I would still prefer that people had to work for their intel, and think that requiring vigilant players protecting the fleet is an absolutely fair counter to the risk of being jumped, when weighing up the rewards to be had in w-space. So ideally I would like the old behaviour back, requiring players to actually use probes to know that a new signature was present.
If that is completely off the table how about tying dungeon visibility to ship visibility. The signature remains undetectable for as long as no ship has de-cloaked on grid. As soon as cloak is broken to warp, launch probes, jump back, whatever, then the signature is visible to all.
This gives enough time to perform the limited number of actions you can perform before you are *required* to de-cloak (either by choice or by force). Skilled scouts will be able to use this to full potential, while bunglers will alert everyone to their presence as is currently the case.
It might let you narrow down a point in space where there is a ship, but you will have to launch probes to pinpoint further, so using this time effectively is paramount.
It might let you exclude half the system of targets, but require you to warp to look at the other half, still giving you an edge.
If you're good (or lucky), it might even let you fully locate a gang in space.
If you're bad then you'll de-cloak and be no better off.
If your fleet is bad then you'll get to shout "I told you to hold cloak!" on comms.
|
Red Teufel
Conflagrated Authority
365
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 13:36:00 -
[643] - Quote
I'm surprised everyone wants that annoying having to probe every second trick. how about something to give people a good reason to flow through WH space and not just live there. something like an ESS for WH space. doesn't have to be about rats could be about moon goo for example. add some new content don't nerf something that is working fine. |
Nix Anteris
Bite Me inc Bitten.
162
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 13:39:00 -
[644] - Quote
Red Teufel wrote:add some new content don't nerf something that is working fine.
This is what we were saying in the prelude to the scan overlay in the first place ;) |
Yalawni
Hexavalent Chromium Industries Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 13:51:00 -
[645] - Quote
Deeply depressed by this it smacks so much of poorly executed damage control.
What the hell was wrong with the way it was BEFORE the overlay? If you were lazy and didn't keep an effective watch out for newly spawned wormholes you got caught with your pants down and paid the price. If you kept probes out and constantly scanned you, (mostly), avoided surprises. This was not broken.
The automatic overlay created a problem, in that it made it too easy for farmers to avoid consequences, but now this proposed 'fix' would swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. Again I ask... what was wrong with the original way things worked before the overlay?
CCP, please just have the honesty to admit a mistake was made there and remove it returning things to how they were before.
o/ |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
263
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:19:00 -
[646] - Quote
For all the folk in favor of more pew - this is not a good direction.
This is going to drive out wormhole space's favorite targets. The already rare mining corps are going to be pretty close to non-existent. The farmers and new corps are going to leave too. It's not like even the 'safety' features have made every W system inhabited, this will not improve the situation.
Essentially this turns W-space into PI in stabbed/nano/cloaked epithals or gangs of T3s.
This K162 deal is a special kind of **** move that blatently only favors one playstyle. EvE has always functioned in a way so that if you understand the risk you can mitigate it (moving expensive stuff? web sling. Gate camps? Npc Alt. New sigs? use active probes). This makes it impossible to mitigate risk other than limiting the ships you fly to mitigate loss or just choosing not to engage in PVE activities.
Seriously, when the discovery scanner was released your subs went way up - PVP groups bitched about it because it made their job more difficult. You actually have new players talking about exploration as a career path in multiple subforums weekly, which DID NOT happen pre release. There are some new WH corps talking in W-space forums. These have all been, overall positive changes.
The discovery scanner / probes are our local. Don't **** on the little guy CCP. |
Von Keigai
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:24:00 -
[647] - Quote
Nix Anteris wrote:how about tying dungeon visibility to ship visibility. The signature remains undetectable for as long as no ship has de-cloaked on grid. As soon as cloak is broken to warp, launch probes, jump back, whatever, then the signature is visible to all. Good idea. Several people have proposed it so far. (I proposed it on page 18.)
It's kind of like what Fozzie is getting at, using "1 minute" as the length of time, except that Fozzie's idea allows the scout to do whatever he wants. Using gatecloak-dropping as the K162-is-scannable event means that the scout can only do a limited set of things in the undetectable state. As you say. Fozzie's idea is far too generous to the aggressor.
I don't think that hunters need a huge edge, but I do they need a bit more. Wspace PVE is currently too safe, at least in C1-4. I have no opinion on the balance in C5+. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
Nix Anteris
Bite Me inc Bitten.
162
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:35:00 -
[648] - Quote
Von Keigai wrote: It's kind of like what Fozzie is getting at, using "1 minute" as the length of time, except that Fozzie's idea allows the scout to do whatever he wants. Using gatecloak-dropping as the K162-is-scannable event means that the scout can only do a limited set of things in the undetectable state.
My reasoning was that the skilled or the lucky could get a fleet halfway in warp before the timer pops the signature, with it triggered on de-cloaking then it's visible at the point you decide to take action and actually makes optimal use of the limited time a tactical thing (the difference between "there's ships somewhere over there - I'll just drop probes" and "there's ships roughly 1AU from planet X towards the sun - I need to drop my probes and be fast"), with various ways you can actually screw yourself if you're not careful.
P.S. Bring back old session timers. |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's Infinite Anarchy
138
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:50:00 -
[649] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote: Not only can C5 and C6 groups roll their statics to other C5+s more reliably in one go but also with about half the number of accounts involved compared to a typical lower class WH static. While C5+ groups with lower class static GÇ£shouldGÇ¥ have the numbers to abuse the proposed mechanic to their advantage, who chain rolls lower class WH statics for PvP anyways? Way to painful, way too few targets! It is needless to say that most lower class WH groups donGÇÖt have the numbers to roll in one go on a daily basis. Most of their PvP (from my experience) comes from their chain or people trying to crush connection a WH or do something else foolish.
We can roll our C4>C2 up to 20 times in an hour if that is our want for pvp rather than tracking the chain so I think you're a little out of touch because we're not alone. It takes 1 t3 prober/tackle scout and 4 orcas (or 2 orcas and 4 orca pilots) to roll. Having lived in C5 it normally takes Scout + dread + 2 orcas to roll so 1 less pilot + more chance of extra ship need because of larger mass variance so no real difference. Don't count us "low class" people out.
Either way the rest of your post is redundant in my opinion as it still remains a completely non-counterable implementation regardless of equations, class v timer fappings or anything else. If we are now looking at the "what if we have to come up with something as a conciliation" then CCP aren't reading, CSM aren't representing (Chitsa your job is to represent the majority opinions of your constituents regardless of your own opinions so do your job!) and we already gave up holding our own ground. For the record the only think I love more than shooting a ratter in a WH is shooting him slowly and waiting for him or his corp to escalate in rage but I do not support any part of the proposed OP in any way. Sad,
AdW
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
168
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 15:30:00 -
[650] - Quote
Fozzie..... Do something..... this is getting out of hand |
|
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 16:22:00 -
[651] - Quote
1. Disagree that there should be a delay to K162 being scannable/probable. As previous posters have said, any new site should be detectable/scannable by some means immediately, that is a basic game principle.
2. Also DISAGREE that the discovery scanner should be removed from w-space entirely. The old way forced PvE fleets to use a dedicated scanner/alt to spam the scan button over and over to find new sigs. This is an incredibly stupid and boring role, a job that nobody wants, even on an alt. There is far and away enough scanning/probing in w-space already. I do it every day and it is freaking boring and monotonous. But it is the cost of doing business so that I can do the things that I love about w-space. Frankly there should be more variety and incentive to probe/scan in w-space. That is not to say that I like the idea of removing the defending NPCs from exploration sites like was done in High/Low/Null. But at least there is an incentive for probing/scanning in K-space -by itself-. Such does not exist to reward this profession in w-space without major investment into ratting skills (ghost sites are too rare to count).
3. If a timer is going to be put in no matter what I say, please please scale it by wormhole class. C1's should be close to instant. C2 and up, progressively longer timer. Also might be interesting to have a secondary mass trigger that also scales by wormhole class. But the whole idea of a delay is not something I like.
4. My suggestion is similar to other posters. K162 is pushed to discovery scanner when the FIRST ship passes through it (and not before). At worst, K162 is pushed to discovery scanner when the FIRST ship decloaks after passing through. K162 should also be scannable via probes in the same manner, i.e. it can be scanned with probes when the FIRST ship passes through it.
5. Please please please for the love of all that is wormholey, please make ore sites into sigs again. Ore anomalies are so depressing, because there's no point in risking a barge over cheap ore that I could mine on a highsec or sov nullsec alt with almost no risk. Why risk getting podded and sent back to empire flying a defenseless barge that dies to any old lazy pirate that roams through? And oh look, now they get a timer so I can't even see the K162 open up. Yeah. That's balanced. My how w-space mining is dying a horrible and ugly death. Send halp pleaaase
6. For those complaining about low site/salvage values, its high fricking time that CCP expanded the portfolio of T3 ships that can be produced exclusively in WH space. Its been god knows how many years since they did anything with w-space production. That's where most of the problem is really. At least the subsystems need to be rebalanced so that they are all useful. But really there needs to be some more w-space exclusive hulls, and some more tying of w-space production to the high/low/null production chains. Also starbase-related towers/modules should have some w-space exclusives. There should absolutely be a w-space exclusive gas-harvesting ship. There's so much to be done here and it would totally fix site values. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 18:05:00 -
[652] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:1. Disagree that there should be a delay to K162 being scannable/probable. As previous posters have said, any new site should be detectable/scannable by some means immediately, that is a basic game principle.
2. Also DISAGREE that the discovery scanner should be removed from w-space entirely. The old way forced PvE fleets to use a dedicated scanner/alt to spam the scan button over and over to find new sigs. This is an incredibly stupid and boring role, a job that nobody wants, even on an alt. There is far and away enough scanning/probing in w-space already. I do it every day and it is freaking boring and monotonous. But it is the cost of doing business so that I can do the things that I love about w-space. Frankly there should be more variety and incentive to probe/scan in w-space. That is not to say that I like the idea of removing the defending NPCs from exploration sites like was done in High/Low/Null. But at least there is an incentive for probing/scanning in K-space -by itself-. Such does not exist to reward this profession in w-space without major investment into ratting skills (ghost sites are too rare to count).
3. If a timer is going to be put in no matter what I say, please please scale it by wormhole class. C1's should be close to instant. C2 and up, progressively longer timer. Also might be interesting to have a secondary mass trigger that also scales by wormhole class. But the whole idea of a delay is not something I like.
4. My suggestion is similar to other posters. K162 is pushed to discovery scanner when the FIRST ship passes through it (and not before). At worst, K162 is pushed to discovery scanner when the FIRST ship decloaks after passing through. K162 should also be scannable via probes in the same manner, i.e. it can be scanned with probes when the FIRST ship passes through it.
5. Please please please for the love of all that is wormholey, please make ore sites into sigs again. Ore anomalies are so depressing, because there's no point in risking a barge over cheap ore that I could mine on a highsec or sov nullsec alt with almost no risk. Why risk getting podded and sent back to empire flying a defenseless barge that dies to any old lazy pirate that roams through? And oh look, now they get a timer so I can't even see the K162 open up. Yeah. That's balanced. My how w-space mining is dying a horrible and ugly death. Send halp pleaaase
6. For those complaining about low site/salvage values, its high fricking time that CCP expanded the portfolio of T3 ships that can be produced exclusively in WH space. Its been god knows how many years since they did anything with w-space production. That's where most of the problem is really. At least the subsystems need to be rebalanced so that they are all useful. But really there needs to be some more w-space exclusive hulls, and some more tying of w-space production to the high/low/null production chains. Also starbase-related towers/modules should have some w-space exclusives. There should absolutely be a w-space exclusive gas-harvesting ship. There's so much to be done here and it would totally fix site values.
I find your lack of comprehension of what 'the most dangerous and unforgiving space in Eve' means disturbing.
Sure, scanning and being scout can be boring. But it is a price that wormholers ALWAYS have paid in order to minimize the risk of annihilation. Having assets diverted ti those tasks is THE ONLY THING that motivates the pretty good payout we get for the PvE we do. Yeah, I do PvE too. Our fleet has usually 3-6 scouts covering the fleet. Those people get part of the share, of course, as they do an important task.
It's whining like this that makes me move into holes with people. Thanks, now you've made me grumpy.
I do agree with the mining sites being moved back to sigs... But ONLY if there is infinite delay and the sigs require probes to find. If I should have to probe your Retriever down you should have to probe the entrance down. Seems fair, right. |
Zingr
Korsairs
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 18:26:00 -
[653] - Quote
zoonr wrote:This change only make sense if the same is done for local in every part of Eve, for pilots entering a system via a stargate or a WH. They should not appear in local for the same amount of time (may be linked to the mass of their ship as suggested).
otherwise, it will unfairly affect the W H players.
CCP, please stay fair in this issue. As the concept is a good one, but there is no reason to only apply it only to WH residents.
I'm with you, bro.. |
Kirasten
Sin Factory Infinite Anarchy
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 18:51:00 -
[654] - Quote
I sure hope that I am not the only one who has commented here that this idea is maybe the worst idea for wormhole space I have ever heard. The trouble with wormhole space is that it needs MORE people, not more ganks.
The current system (or going back to having to scan it down with probes) offers a defense, but that defense is only for the vigilant. There are plenty of ganks that still go on on a day to day basis. Do you really think that Blood Union needs a delay to be on top of your escalation fleet? If it's taking you too long to find targets when jumping into a new hole, get better scouts.
A much more pressing problem in W-space is the lack of PEOPLE in it. We go hole to hole to hole and see no sign of life anywhere. If those holes were filled with people, there would be no need to have this discussion. And this discussion will make that problem even worse! How many people do you think you will find living in wormholes if this goes through? This will create a mass exodus.
Please don't ruin wormhole space. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1303
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 18:55:00 -
[655] - Quote
Red Teufel wrote:I'm surprised everyone wants that annoying having to probe every second trick. how about something to give people a good reason to flow through WH space and not just live there. something like an ESS for WH space. doesn't have to be about rats could be about moon goo for example. add some new content don't nerf something that is working fine.
Most of us don't want less scanning and certainly no moon goo. No trolling please |
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
152
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 19:24:00 -
[656] - Quote
I would like the devs or csm to answer me one question. Why do we need more PvP like this in wormhole?
To lure more people in or to evict more out of wormhole space? To make it more fun? Which is always discutable. This change surely brings less fun to me and everyone doing PvE in wormholes. And admit it that we all are in wormholes because of sleeper loot. Not to mention that this change looks quite illogical and not consistent with general scanner mechanics. |
Icewolf7
Anomalous Existence
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 19:51:00 -
[657] - Quote
Seems like your looking for low hanging fruit / quick fix to help WH pvp.
But this idea only helps the pvper's who actively roll their static to look for targets and punishes people for running combat/mining sites.
One thing that could be a "quick fix" would be to lower the scan strength / time to Find wh's sigs. It would make it faster to go from wh to wh locate a "Good fight" or "Gank".
The real problem seems to be finding pvp. You can spend hours scanning down system's and find no one(decloaked that is). Now the only Natural way to increase pvp in wh's would be to increase the population of them with re-balancing the isk gain/loss ratio.
And its obvious the incentives for wh space are not measuring up to major alternatives of making isk passive or active.
Ratting in Null? local and Intel channels Incursions? High sec ganking if you fit your ship to shiney Moon goo? setup and "meta politics" Anything in worm holes? Clicking D scan or sig watching
Perhaps its time for a more open and larger scale discussion on adding content to W-space so that more pilots and corporations see the value of exploring and settling in wh's
PS: bring back the WH wiggle's when you started warp on a wh, I had hours of fun spamming that on people who were camping a wh. |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 19:58:00 -
[658] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:I find your lack of comprehension of what 'the most dangerous and unforgiving space in Eve' means disturbing. Sure, scanning and being scout can be boring. But it is a price that wormholers ALWAYS have paid in order to minimize the risk of annihilation. Having assets diverted ti those tasks is THE ONLY THING that motivates the pretty good payout we get for the PvE we do. Yeah, I do PvE too. Our fleet has usually 3-6 scouts covering the fleet. Those people get part of the share, of course, as they do an important task. It's whining like this that makes me move into holes with people. Thanks, now you've made me grumpy. I do agree with the mining sites being moved back to sigs... But ONLY if there is infinite delay and the sigs require probes to find. If I should have to probe your Retriever down you should have to probe the entrance down. Seems fair, right.
Learn to read the entire post before misinterpreting what I say pls. I am in favor of reasonable changes to make w-space more dangerous. I am in favor of improvements to site values that would mean more isk and more content for all of us, and would not require diverting more pilots and effort to probing (which I believe can be toned down and/or given more incentives (e.g. wallet) without making w-space less dangerous). Site values are not derived just from having to probe everything, which only cuts supply, and for all the wrong reasons, and does nothing to address demand. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 20:11:00 -
[659] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Bjurn Akely wrote:I find your lack of comprehension of what 'the most dangerous and unforgiving space in Eve' means disturbing. Sure, scanning and being scout can be boring. But it is a price that wormholers ALWAYS have paid in order to minimize the risk of annihilation. Having assets diverted ti those tasks is THE ONLY THING that motivates the pretty good payout we get for the PvE we do. Yeah, I do PvE too. Our fleet has usually 3-6 scouts covering the fleet. Those people get part of the share, of course, as they do an important task. It's whining like this that makes me move into holes with people. Thanks, now you've made me grumpy. I do agree with the mining sites being moved back to sigs... But ONLY if there is infinite delay and the sigs require probes to find. If I should have to probe your Retriever down you should have to probe the entrance down. Seems fair, right. Learn to read the entire post before misinterpreting what I say pls. I am in favor of reasonable changes to make w-space more dangerous. I am in favor of improvements to site values that would mean more isk and more content for all of us, and would not require diverting more pilots and effort to probing (which I believe can be toned down and/or given more incentives (e.g. wallet) without making w-space less dangerous). Site values are not derived just from having to probe everything, which only cuts supply, and for all the wrong reasons, and does nothing to address demand.
I understood you the first time. I'm just of the opinion that you want to have it too easy. Our opinions differ. I was also trying to be a bit funny. I'm sorry I was bat at getting that across. |
Talon Kane
Commando Muad'Dib
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 20:19:00 -
[660] - Quote
devian chase wrote:You guys all want easier ganks . But if you cant get a fleet going in the 2-3 minutes it takes for a pve fleet to clear a site of pointing sleepers you dont deserve the kill :) Ganking shouldnt be made easier ... We just need more ppl in wh space , since incursions you can get the same isk/h and group pve totaly safe in high sec or get more doing the FW thing K-space ppl dont go up for day trips to wh space at all anymore there just isnt a reason for ppl to come up to wh space , everything up here takes way more effort and coordination
if you want to improve wh space : 1 remove escalation waves ,will force ppl to do sites in small pve fleets again outside of their capital infested home 2 add c1-3 site spawns to c5 classes as well , so ppl dont need the 6+ gang to do stuff 3 add pointy sleepers to all c1-3 sites 4 small buff to the loot of all sleeper sites 5 add more content like ded plexes / sansha stuff to wh space
This!
We definitly need solutions that will help repopulate wh a bit.
Why can't we have random loots when hunting sleepers? It gets pretty boring after a while. Can't we have some complexes to enhance the pve experience? I'm sure this will motivate people to come in wh space.
I'm all for the tweaks that encourage ganks, but we need more content to compensate.
Also, I would like to see again mining barges in wormholes... instead of the occasionnal afk venture... (hopefully, after the refining modification, we'll see some more barges) More people in wh + some encouragement for the small gang warfare in pve and pvp will greatly enhance wormholes.
I know I might be a little bit off-topic... but the solution proposed in this thread just seems... boring... and looks like a little band-aid. I understand that a game that has been developped for years has problems with radical changes... but common, let's have some guts and try some bolder moves no? :P
-½ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain -+. |
|
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
152
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 22:47:00 -
[661] - Quote
devian chase wrote: 1 remove escalation waves ,will force ppl to do sites in small pve fleets again outside of their capital infested home
fastest way to clear C5+ space.
|
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
102
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 23:02:00 -
[662] - Quote
Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain? This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone! If down the chain you are scanning a wormhole with no active residents then by scanning you spawn the static of this hole. But guess what before you even land at that hole the residents in there have already fled to their pos. So scanning the static also delivers less targets then before. Kills are down for all pvp alliances, by a big factor. PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf. The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year. The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.
I DO want more people in w-space. But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk. T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.
So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.
Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.
Or bring in a delay to fill in the probe scanner , unless you are activly probing with probes. We need the probing for the new players. Probing in w-space is life, you provide yourself and yours with info, security, isk and targets by probing. Not to probe in w-space is certain death. That way the defenders are rewarded by scanning and the attackers at least have a chance to get a target. Scanning is searching for the will of BOB.
Don't talk about giving us an ess in w-space if the one in null sec doesn't work to give fights.
Ore sites will be repopulated after the reprocessing changes since it would actualy be worth it to mine in w-space after those.
Give us more unique things to make, find, shoot, ... .
We Don't NEED or WANT a local in w-space, it has been fine before , now it is causing the problems we have in w-space. |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1032
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 23:59:00 -
[663] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
484
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 00:15:00 -
[664] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain? This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone! PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf. The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year. The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.
I DO want more people in w-space. But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk. T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.
So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.
Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.
What is this I don't even know.....
We need more people in WH's! And the best way to that is to heavily nerf the ability to rat without sudden death!
Too much oversupply! Not enough people! Too easy to rat! Kill ratting so that more people come! (huh?)
Too much oversupply means that I don't make enough money in my c6! Nerf everyone else ability to rat so mine goes up (seriously man?)! But not without driving them away from WHs mind you. Cause we need more population, but only if they don't actually PvE and contribute to the oversupply!
*clutches head and goes to get an asprin. |
Lucius Saturninus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 01:28:00 -
[665] - Quote
If your going to do this you may as well take away local chat in Null Space to while your at it. |
Strom Crendraven
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 03:49:00 -
[666] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:eGO Wallrat wrote:So I'm new to the forums but not to EVE and for the last several years I've been living in W-Space. I've learned to be paranoid. I've done some hunting myself and I've been hunted. As I'm reading this it would be a major change to the current WH dynamic IMO. Take the auto scanner away - but don't take away my ability to be vigilant. BayneNothos wrote:[quote=Erasmus Phoenix]There is balance to be found and that balance is in removing the defenders massive advantage in having the K162 appear straight away in the scan window. The attacker gets NO information immediately, why should the defender. The attackers can get information right away with the overlay. Ships on scan and one anom? I know where I'm heading. If I had to scan down the anom then the ratters / miners might see my probes before I get there - if they're vigilant. By masking sigs it simply handicaps one side of equation. I'm all for taking away the auto overlay and make us rely on our own actions to see what's out there. But it doesn't make sense for me to probe if I can't actually see what's there. We're talking about different times here. The defender knows about the incoming K162 at my warp initialisation + however long it takes the discovery scanner to refresh itself/manually be refreshed. This can be as short as a second or as long as however long the auto refresh rate on the discovery scanner window is. The attacker doesn't get any info from the new wh until he's aligned, warped to it, flown up to it, jumped, loaded the new system and clicked dscan. If it's a short warp, he's in a fast boat and he lands on top of the wh that can be a short time, 10-20 seconds. If the WH is the other end of the system, if he's in a fat scan boat like an Armour T3, if the cosmic anomaly is far off the WH entity itself it can be double or even longer than that. This is why I'm in favour of a short delay (or a proper fix via WH spawning on gridland) it equals up both sides.
Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5047
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 04:17:00 -
[667] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote:Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.
If I'm looking, here's what I see in the above scenario: first, I see a new signature. Then, I scan down the new signature. It has a signal strength of 0.4% on the long range scan. I keep watching the signatures. The signature I was watching switches from 0.4% to 0.8% on the long range scan: this means I already know that someone is warping to the other end of this wormhole because the wormhole that was there is now replaced with a K162.
So I know that someone is coming before they even land on their side of the wormhole.
If CCP wants to provide some kind of "warning", I would suggest that the existing wormhole should simply get "bigger" as it becomes more unstable. Rather than replacing that A641 with a K162, just make the A641's signature strength inversely proportional to its stability (or directly proportional to the mass that has transited relative to the mass limit of the hole). Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 05:19:00 -
[668] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain? This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone! If down the chain you are scanning a wormhole with no active residents then by scanning you spawn the static of this hole. But guess what before you even land at that hole the residents in there have already fled to their pos. So scanning the static also delivers less targets then before. Kills are down for all pvp alliances, by a big factor. PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf. The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year. The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.
I DO want more people in w-space. But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk. T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.
So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.
Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.
Or bring in a delay to fill in the probe scanner , unless you are activly probing with probes. We need the probing for the new players. Probing in w-space is life, you provide yourself and yours with info, security, isk and targets by probing. Not to probe in w-space is certain death. That way the defenders are rewarded by scanning and the attackers at least have a chance to get a target. Scanning is searching for the will of BOB.
- You are not getting to the heart of the problem. The heart of the problem is not carefree PvE. The heart of it is the fact that the ENTIRE w-space economy outside of PI is tied to the fate of FOUR ships. FOUR. And CCP has already hinted at nerfing this class of four ships, and let me tell you that has impacted demand for w-space loot big time. My wallet hurts everyday not because I have an easy time ratting (I don't), but because T3 cruisers are in a state of complete limbo and have been for an extended period because there is not any clarity yet from CCP as to what is going to happen to them. This is a problem.
- Nowadays there is "overproduction" of w-space loot while others have complained at the same time that there is a lack of population in w-space. So yeah, this is a demand issue, not a supply one. There's no demand. That needs to be fixed. I think you sort of understand that, but are getting hung up on the K162 timer thingy and believe this will raise sleeper loot prices. Well yes it will, but for all the wrong reasons. This would be a step towards fixing the supply/demand imbalance by cutting supply to be in line with the current low demand. That's the wrong direction to go in if you ask me. It will lead to further depopulation. Net net, you could end up with even fewer kills because there's simply nobody living in w-space anymore.
- I understand that probing is sort of part of the culture of w-space, so I'm ok with the amount of probing there is now, but there doesn't need to be anymore probing than there is today without there being wallet incentives to do it. Especially with the w-space economy situation being the way it is.
tl;dr demand demand demand, fix demand. The K162 timer will cut suppy, but we have a demand problem in w-space. Fix THAT first.
|
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
54
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 05:19:00 -
[669] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.
Sigh, no one in WH Space just chills out and continues on when they see a new sig, regardless of what it is, they go straight back to POS and you know it.
The point of me spelling out all the little bits of time that add up was to show that a short delay would be mostly eaten up by mundane things, thus it's not giving an enormous advantage to the attacker at all but just reducing the natural defensive advantages that the Discovery Scanner era has to a more equitable gap.
EVE is a much slower game than people think it is. I'm an AUTZ player so I've done plenty of rush back to the WH before DT runs. A HS system crossing is about a minute in a cruiser, session change to session change. The thing is you tend to not notice this kind of stuff unless you're clock watching. Now a WH system isn't the same, jumps tend to be shorter (HS Gates are generally at the outer edges of a system, WH's tend to be closer to the sun) but again the actual time wasn't the point.
Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.
Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window. |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 05:52:00 -
[670] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote:
Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.
Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.
- Its probably better to implement a change where the K162 doesn't appear until an actual ship has passed through it (now it appears precisely when a ship warps to it, which is too soon) - that much can probably be agreed upon.
- My concern is that if there is going to be a timer delay, it is too easy to screw it up and unbalance the game - specifically if the timer is too long then PvE-centric pilots will just leave w-space because of the current low value of sleeper loot (esp. in C1/C2/C3) not being worth the risk. So I would rather there be no timer than a screwed up timer.
- If there's going to be a timer or removal of the 0% sigs from the Discover Scanner, it should be offset by some changes to improve demand for w-space loot. We need more pilots in w-space, not less. So we need more demand to offset the increased risk.
|
|
GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:00:00 -
[671] - Quote
mashing refresh on both dscan and cosmic sigs dosn't sound like great game play tbh
maybe make the cosmic scanner auto update timer 1-2 mins or so. and from there the overlay will update. this should be easy uncomplicated and not introduce bugs..
As it is you should never stop checking dscan.
As a side issue can you give us some data on how often d-scan is pushed in wh space and what the size of the server replies is? just wondering how much server resources & bandwidth dscanning currently takes up. and if theres some kind of optimization that can take place.
in Nova if you where stupid and dscaned with no filters your dscan window would have a fit.
|
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
103
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:12:00 -
[672] - Quote
Anhenka wrote: What is this I don't even know.....
We need more people in WH's! And the best way to that is to heavily nerf the ability to rat without sudden death!
Too much oversupply! Not enough people! Too easy to rat! Kill ratting so that more people come! (huh?)
Too much oversupply means that I don't make enough money in my c6! Nerf everyone else ability to rat so mine goes up (seriously man?)! But not without driving them away from WHs mind you. Cause we need more population, but only if they don't actually PvE and contribute to the oversupply!
*clutches head and goes to get an asprin.
I don'r need to rat, but the c1-c4 people seem to complain about not enough income... . Wich only is a problem since the new scanning system. So ore sites not needed to scan might also be one of the problem.
Besides, everyone seems to have forgoten what it was before the overview scanner changes where you did need to scan. Now you can just just pos up immediatly. People still ratted before so HTFU.
|
Strom Crendraven
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:15:00 -
[673] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:Strom Crendraven wrote: Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.
Sigh, no one in WH Space just chills out and continues on when they see a new sig, regardless of what it is, they go straight back to POS and you know it. The point of me spelling out all the little bits of time that add up was to show that a short delay would be mostly eaten up by mundane things, thus it's not giving an enormous advantage to the attacker at all but just reducing the natural defensive advantages that the Discovery Scanner era has to a more equitable gap. EVE is a much slower game than people think it is. I'm an AUTZ player so I've done plenty of rush back to the WH before DT runs. A HS system crossing is about a minute in a cruiser, session change to session change. The thing is you tend to not notice this kind of stuff unless you're clock watching. Now a WH system isn't the same, jumps tend to be shorter (HS Gates are generally at the outer edges of a system, WH's tend to be closer to the sun) but again the actual time wasn't the point. Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time. Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.
Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.
|
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
103
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:18:00 -
[674] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote:mashing refresh on both dscan and cosmic sigs dosn't sound like great game play tbh
maybe make the cosmic scanner auto update timer 1-2 mins or so. and from there the overlay will update. this should be easy uncomplicated and not introduce bugs..
As it is you should never stop checking dscan.
As a side issue can you give us some data on how often d-scan is pushed in wh space and what the size of the server replies is? just wondering how much server resources & bandwidth dscanning currently takes up. and if theres some kind of optimization that can take place.
in Nova if you where stupid and dscaned with no filters your dscan window would have a fit.
I am not fond of timers also but activly scanning should and used to have its rewards. Doing that before oddesy rewarded you with escaping pvp'ers. Today there is no need for it while doing pve. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:35:00 -
[675] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Strom Crendraven wrote:
Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.
Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.
- Its probably better to implement a change where the K162 doesn't appear until an actual ship has passed through it (now it appears precisely when a ship warps to it, which is too soon) - that much can probably be agreed upon.
- My concern is that if there is going to be a timer delay, it is too easy to screw it up and unbalance the game - specifically if the timer is too long then PvE-centric pilots will just leave w-space because of the current low value of sleeper loot (esp. in C1/C2/C3) not being worth the risk. So I would rather there be no timer than a screwed up timer.
- If there's going to be a timer or removal of the 0% sigs from the Discover Scanner, it should be offset by some changes to improve demand for w-space loot. We need more pilots in w-space, not less. So we need more demand to offset the increased risk.
Yes a timer could be screwed up, it's why I'd rather it was fixed properly. Though tbh I haven't seen Fozzie screw anything up yet (I'm sure someone will correct me there :P ) so I"m confident that if a timer is added due to a proper fix being unavailable for whatever reason, it'll be short and reasonable for the job.
If you're worried about isk, worry about the upcoming T3 rebalance, that has more potential to do damage to W-Space than a 12 hour timer ever will. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
103
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:37:00 -
[676] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.
Wormholes used to be dangerous now they aren't any more. You seem to have forgotten how it was before the easy way of living in w-space. And back then there were still pve'ers in w-space. |
Akseli Jari
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:47:00 -
[677] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. Thanks! -Fozzie
Could you perhaps elaborate on some of the other concepts you've been working on? |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 06:52:00 -
[678] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.
If you read around the forums a bit you'll see I'm a big fan of PvE guys. I'm the one saying PvP groups should be adopting them rather than trolling and evicting them. The WH ecosystem is very important to me. The variation in what you find static to static is what I love about it. However part of that ecosystem is predators, whether you like it or not. PvE guys existed before the Discovery Scanner and thrived just as much as they do now. The only difference is that now they don't have to actively protect themselves, the Discovery Scanner will tell them when they have to run the split second I start to warp to the WH. And this is why a SHORT delay is being suggested by some people. Even if it is the long terrible way to fixing the Discovery Scanner |
Nox52
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 09:24:00 -
[679] - Quote
Directed to Fozzie.
Assuming the proposed unscannable k162 delay changes go ahead for all k162s, what is going to happen to k space exits? The changes would be near worthless for k space as local would be an instant and more powerful intel method than the scanner overlay.
Are you going to add a similar delay timer to local for people jumping in kspace to make the changes worth it?
(I'm curious if there was any dev though put into the issue and if so what was it.) |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:33:00 -
[680] - Quote
Strom Crendraven wrote: Yes a timer could be screwed up, it's why I'd rather it was fixed properly. Though tbh I haven't seen Fozzie screw anything up yet (I'm sure someone will correct me there :P ) so I"m confident that if a timer is added due to a proper fix being unavailable for whatever reason, it'll be short and reasonable for the job.
If you're worried about isk, worry about the upcoming T3 rebalance, that has more potential to do damage to W-Space than a 12 hour timer ever will.
I already mentioned about the T3 reblance/nerf in my earlier posts. The uncertainty over the fate of T3 cruisers is already damaging and has damaged w-space. Markets are always forward-looking, and that includes the Eve market. T3 hull/sub prices already reflect significant uncertainty over the possibility of the nerf hammer dropping. Pull up a recent chart of Tengu hulls in Jita and you'll see what I'm talking about. You don't see those kind of inexorable multi-year declines if there isn't a demand problem.
I'm not sure who would program a timer change, but as the old saying goes - past performance is no guarantee of future results.
|
|
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 10:41:00 -
[681] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote: Wormholes used to be dangerous now they aren't any more. You seem to have forgotten how it was before the easy way of living in w-space. And back then there were still pve'ers in w-space.
They aren't anymore because you are in a big ass entity. They see you and they run since your corp has the power to wipe the floor with most of them. It's the nature of the beast. Now, are you one of those hunters that like his prey encircled and brought in the rifle's sights or are you the type that likes to hunt in the wild and knows that he'll not always get the kill? |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 11:19:00 -
[682] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote: I am not fond of timers also but activly scanning should and used to have its rewards. Doing that before oddesy rewarded you with escaping pvp'ers. Today there is no need for it while doing pve.
The lack of a negative outcome is not a positive outcome.
In other words, it is not "rewarding" to not have something bad happen to me - and it is not "rewarding" to have to engage in a boring/undesirable activity in order to avoid an even more negative outcome.
Logical fallacies.
Staying on topic - I have advocated and continue to advocate that K162 behaviour should be tilted a bit more in favor of the hunters but it should be done without making w-space more inconvenient.
Completely removing the Discovery Scanner for 0% sigs would force PvE pilots to train a scanner alt on another account like it was in the old days and this is rather inconvenient because the role is boring and nobody enjoys it. It would be a significant gameplay nerf.
The opposition would argue that if there is more inconvenience then loot prices will increase. This is true, but creating a price rally by making the game less enjoyable to play is not a good long-term direction to go. More depopulation (and subscription losses) would result.
At the same time putting a delay on the K162 spawn on the Discovery Scanner could easily tip the balance too far in favor of the hunters. Hunters should feel a sense of accomplishment for every kill they get, but if they get like five minutes to find a barge or a cheap PvE boat and there's no warning (cloaked Proteus FTW) - well then its just cheap kills for the lolz and PvE pilots leave w-space.
At least the change should start with the K162 popping on the Discovery Scanner when a ship has gone through it, and no later than when a ship has decloaked after passing through it. That would be more balanced and it would be similar (in terms of timing) to the old days when a scanner alt would pick up the K162 via probes but without the inconvenience of yet more probing (ugh).
But this recommendation is excluding any further changes to improve demand for sleeper loot. If there's some nice improvements to w-space site values on the demand side, then I would not mind further changes to benefit the hunters. Just keep the number of carrots equal to the number of sticks for both camps. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
177
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 12:44:00 -
[683] - Quote
Pointing fingers at no one in particular. This thread has turned into a giant DUMB MAGNET. Where is the ninny that randomly locks threads for random forum rules reasons?? This has to be breaking some obscure rule. Please lock it.
There is nothing new to discuss here.
|
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
455
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 13:27:00 -
[684] - Quote
I have a thought which.. kind of just occurred to me. I'm writing something up in more detail.. but I'll just throw it here.
1) Return the scanner changes to pre-odyssey (needed for the next two changes) 2) In c4, c5 and c6 space... instant polarization upon jumping a hole. Currently when you jump a wormhole, you get a polarization timer from the side you jumped in (usually 4 to 5 minutes). You can immediately jump back through that wormhole. When you do, you get another polarization timer (from the otherside), for about the same amount of time. If you try to jump the same wormhole again, you cannot, until your timer expires. This change makes it so that when you jump, you are just instantly polarized on both sides of the hole (you jumped in, you cannot jump back for 4 to 5 minutes).
You want to rage roll, you put your ships at risk, you rage too hard, you risk trapping one of the otherside. Chain collapsing is still possible, it just takes about 5 minutes vs 30 seconds.
3) Make Dscan a module (and just to add more pain, make it a high slot module). No dscan module equipped, no dscanning for you. There is a t1 and t2 version, T1 cannot be used while cloaked, T2 one can.
4) Add 2 DScan skillbooks (Direction Scanning and Expanded Directional Scanner, cannot be trained on trial accounts). Each level of this increases your dscan range by 1.5 au (we can't just have a module without having people dedicate time to learning how to use it now can we).
What does all of this do?
a) Makes wormhole space a HELL of a lot more dangerous and scary. You put the pvper's at risk of getting popped when rage rolling, or even just jumping a wormhole (hell wormhole camps rejoice, you now have a reason to bubble a hole).
b) Makes exploration and jumping in a "wormhole" actually dangerous (note the polarization changes only apply to c4 through c6 space, leaving the bar quite lowered for c1, c2 and c3 space (allowing for day trippers, easier fighting, less stress, etc).
c) Makes people who want that early detection system sacrifice something on their ship to get it. It makes dedicated probers and scanners a EXTREMELY important position for a fleet and a corporation.
d) It gives the "hunters", some more viability regarding hunting. This does deter a "solo hunter" as they have to sacrifice a slot to equip a dscan module (or they could go with just a probe launcher, oh yea probes are now more viable). You need a scanner to really get around, it makes retro-fitting in space MUCH more viable, it creates hunting grounds, and it just makes the whole feeling of wormholes.. scary.
e) gives a new training for people who really want to know whats out there. If you don't want to train it or just get the first skill to 4, your dscan range is only 6.0 au.
No longer will a fleet of 30 people all mash dscan at once (because they probably don't have a module equipped). Hunters can potentially be just "offgrid", "Uncloaked", and a fleet never know.
No longer will people almost instantly auto detect probes in space without having a dscan module on (heck you could probe to your hearts content now).
No longer can you just mash dscan to see if someone is probing you out (the hunters can be hunted also).
No longer can you just "roll the hole", without risking something trying to do it.
I would aim towards doing this. You fix combat by making it just THAT much more dangerous (Hell I'd hate to be a carebear that has to sacrifice a slot for a module, hate to have to train yet 2 more damn skills to use that module, hate that I risk losing ships by trying to mass a hole, hate that wormholes don't auto pop up on the overview anymore, hate that I can't detect probes without having a dscan module equipped, hate that I have to sacrifice cargo to haul more stuff.
I'd be pretty gitty to have changes like these for hunting.. that is till I lose my hunting ship because they bubbled the damn hole, threw garbage around it to decloak me and had 3 tornado's 90 km away. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:17:00 -
[685] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Said **** about polarization
In your very long post you confuse risk with suicide, the second you jump your last cap through to roll a C5 + hole or an Orca C4- your effectively reducing the mass to a point where anything that comes to your aid should you get jumped is trapped. They have 4 minutes 30 seconds (you seemed to be guessing at the time your polarized on one side so ill give you the exact time) to try and not get bumped of the hole and tank any DPS, those on the other side can warp in as many assets to the hole as they like knowing you can't bring help.
What this would mean is you loose the ability to control your chain, and a corp that is incapable of accessing its own chain at will is a dead one. This could happen only 3 or 4 times a week and members would become frustrated that they cannot do anything confined to there POS shields and exit out the first available door or stop playing eve altogether and go DOTA.
Yes many people have said this change or that would mean a mass exudes from W-Space and i have prity much disagreed with them all. But this would mean a definitive end to any small wh entities i can say that with some confidence as many of them don't feel comfortable rolling with hostiles spotted 2 WH's away never mind instr polarization.
So 3x no
Not even going near 3) + 4)...... |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9517
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 14:58:00 -
[686] - Quote
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest). Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
83
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:09:00 -
[687] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest).
Good to know. It's good that you realise that the proposed changes are absolutely massive.
As to that huge post about polarisation and d-scan being a module and stuff... What are you smoking and where can I get some, it's obviously potent. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:49:00 -
[688] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest).
I queried before but I will try to get your attention again:
What problem is it you are trying to fix? Too little PvP? In what class of holes (any, C5-6)? Should mining be culled specifically? Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners? Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement?
Giving us a little more clear info, preferably without words open of interpretation would really help the cause. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 15:59:00 -
[689] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote: What problem is it you are trying to fix? Too little PvP? In what class of holes (any, C5-6)? Should mining be culled specifically? Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners? Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement?
Giving us a little more clear info, preferably without words open of interpretation would really help the cause.
The problem being addressed is that there are meant to be areas of space that are graded in terms of your safety, High sec > Low sec > Null sec > WH's. All of eve operates on a risk reward system currently with the mechanics in place this scaling of safety is off. This is what the changes are here to address.
CCP Fozzie wrote:mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing |
Newt BlackCompany
Serene Vendetta
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:00:00 -
[690] - Quote
There's already a delay of a minute or so. You have to actively spam the 'show anomalies' button to see new sigs immediately. This is as it should be.
The net result of this change will be that the big wh alliances will roll into hole after hole, catching and killing anyone escallating or farming anoms. It will greatly increase the risk, without any increase in reward. WH life is already risky enough.
This will force all smaller wh corps to join the big alliances to be able to stay in the wh, and they often came here because they didn't want to deal with the politics and pressure and required ops in the nullsec alliances.
I don't think this is a change that's either desirable or needed.
It'd be very similar to removing, or delaying, local chat updating in Nullsec, and I'm guessing that would be an unpopular move.
|
|
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:04:00 -
[691] - Quote
Newt BlackCompany wrote:There's already a delay of a minute or so. You have to actively spam the 'show anomalies' button to see new sigs immediately. This is as it should be.
The net result of this change will be that the big wh alliances will roll into hole after hole, catching and killing anyone escallating or farming anoms. It will greatly increase the risk, without any increase in reward. WH life is already risky enough.
This will force all smaller wh corps to join the big alliances to be able to stay in the wh, and they often came here because they didn't want to deal with the politics and pressure and required ops in the nullsec alliances.
I don't think this is a change that's either desirable or needed.
It'd be very similar to removing, or delaying, local chat updating in Nullsec, and I'm guessing that would be an unpopular move.
Show me your history of losses of PVE ships in W-Space! according to the info i can find your total PVE losses in W-Space amounts to 1 noctice. Now please tell me how long you have been in W-Space and how much ISK you have made here, confirm this information then resubmit your premise that W-Space is risky enough.
|
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
52
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:08:00 -
[692] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Bjurn Akely wrote: What problem is it you are trying to fix? Too little PvP? In what class of holes (any, C5-6)? Should mining be culled specifically? Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners? Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement?
Giving us a little more clear info, preferably without words open of interpretation would really help the cause.
The problem being addressed is that there are meant to be areas of space that are graded in terms of your safety, High sec > Low sec > Null sec > WH's. All of eve operates on a risk reward system currently with the mechanics in place this scaling of safety is off. This is what the changes are here to address. CCP Fozzie wrote:mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing
Although I appreciate your answer - and the quote does clear it up a wee bit - I would like to get the official CCP opinion. Because you, and this is said with respect, do not have the power to make that interpretation. Neither do I.
But lets for arguments sake say that the safety ladder you mention is correct. Then it clearly means that there should be no class difference between holes. Any delay should be the same for all the holes, since that ladder do not state classes of holes...
And before anyone argues why I'm wrong... me asking CCP Fozzie was just trying to help us not fall into interpretations like that. |
mkint
1119
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:11:00 -
[693] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest). Except meaningful discussion requires context. This is no more meaningful discussion than kicking a beehive is apiculture. There is no dev feedback, no justification, no goals to the proposal, no problems to try to fix. This is one of the least productive threadnaughts, and one of the dumbest OP trolling I've seen on these forums. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:17:00 -
[694] - Quote
mkint wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest). Except meaningful discussion requires context. This is no more meaningful discussion than kicking a beehive is apiculture. There is no dev feedback, no justification, no goals to the proposal, no problems to try to fix. This is one of the least productive threadnaughts, and one of the dumbest OP trolling I've seen on these forums.
If you haven't got the context from the OP and the resulting conversation, if you don't understand the goals of the purposed changes by now then i'm afraid there is nothing anyone can do for you at CCP or in life. I could recommend some adult learning centers in your area though if you wan't to join the rest of us with basic comprehension. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13219
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:20:00 -
[695] - Quote
you know that communication array that wormhole space will never have connection to? make that a sov upgrade. npc sov has it, and tying it to sov provides some continuity in the spectrum from high sec to wormhole space.
and fozzie, yesthankyou i take comfort in knowing there is development time that prevents this from being released by the summer. President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
52
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:34:00 -
[696] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Newt BlackCompany wrote:There's already a delay of a minute or so. You have to actively spam the 'show anomalies' button to see new sigs immediately. This is as it should be.
The net result of this change will be that the big wh alliances will roll into hole after hole, catching and killing anyone escallating or farming anoms. It will greatly increase the risk, without any increase in reward. WH life is already risky enough.
This will force all smaller wh corps to join the big alliances to be able to stay in the wh, and they often came here because they didn't want to deal with the politics and pressure and required ops in the nullsec alliances.
I don't think this is a change that's either desirable or needed.
It'd be very similar to removing, or delaying, local chat updating in Nullsec, and I'm guessing that would be an unpopular move.
Show me your history of losses of PVE ships in W-Space! according to the info i can find your total PVE losses in W-Space amounts to 1 noctice. Now please tell me how long you have been in W-Space and how much ISK you have made here, confirm this information then resubmit your premise that W-Space is risky enough. In fact i make that challenge to every PVE entity that has voiced an opinion in this thread, how often do you indeed loose ships to ganks in sites! remove all losses where you get caught on WH's running away. Purely your looses with sleepers on the kill mail, iv lived in W-Space from almost day 1 and i have never lost a ship inside a site to a gank not once.
Go to eve-census.com and see for yourself. I deem it unfair that there should be some sort of entry bar for peoples opinions to matter. How long, how much etc. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:39:00 -
[697] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:
Go to eve-census.com and see for yourself. I deem it unfair that there should be some sort of entry bar for peoples opinions to matter. How long, how much etc.
I'm not saying his opinion isn't valid or worth less than my own. The point im trying to make is his statement is incorrect, he says that it is already dangerous enough with current mechanics.
I'm saying that is safety is measured by how often you loose ships something i think is a fair statistic to draw a conclusion on the safety from. Then show me the losses, because i cant find any. If there are no losses or the losses are so small and rare then that means the current state of things are safe not dangerous as he proposed.
I'm sorry if my meaning was unclear, but can we all agree that the loss of ships to PVP is an accurate determining factor in judging if an area is safe or unsafe? |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
52
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:49:00 -
[698] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Bjurn Akely wrote:
Go to eve-census.com and see for yourself. I deem it unfair that there should be some sort of entry bar for peoples opinions to matter. How long, how much etc.
I'm not saying his opinion isn't valid or worth less than my own. The point im trying to make is his statement is incorrect, he says that it is already dangerous enough with current mechanics. I'm saying that is safety is measured by how often you loose ships something i think is a fair statistic to draw a conclusion on the safety from. Then show me the losses, because i cant find any. If there are no losses or the losses are so small and rare then that means the current state of things are safe not dangerous as he proposed. I'm sorry if my meaning was unclear, but can we all agree that the loss of ships to PVP is an accurate determining factor in judging if an area is safe or unsafe?
No we can't agree on that. Apart from numbers 'safety' might also a feeling and therefore open to opinion. My opinion is that W-space is to safe and the sigs popping up without any effort is a major reason for this. Others might go with their feeling that they want to PvE in peace... ( Curse them! )
It's small interpretations like that that really requires CCP Fozzie to state what the goal the change should reach. And again, is that the goal of all Classes, some classes, some type of activity, ships etc... |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 16:55:00 -
[699] - Quote
Safety is not an opinion, you may think your safe but that dose not mean you are that is called ignorance or denial depending. Safety is a very real and measurable construct and can be defined as such. America even have a colour coding system for there safety .
There are whole areas of work that revolve around grading such things, its called health and safety. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 17:35:00 -
[700] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Safety is not an opinion, you may think your safe but that dose not mean you are that is called ignorance or denial depending. Safety is a very real and measurable construct and can be defined as such. America even have a colour coding system for there safety .
There are whole areas of work that revolve around grading such things, its called health and safety and they are assessed daily by people gathering statistics and hard facts. The formula is always the same but applied differently in different environments but there is usual a constant underlying formula.
Ah, an expert. Well then, define 'safety' in regards to all classes of w-space and all different activities that can be done therein. Please do it in terms that that can not be interpreted for us.
|
|
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 17:49:00 -
[701] - Quote
All classes of WH have the same Dangers the only thing that changes from a C1 to a C6 is the scale, i see you spend allot of time in Low Sec. An apt comparison therefor may be the lowsec DED sites with the acceleration gate functioning as a WH, they will only allow frigates say to use it.
The danger inside the site therefor is the same as all Low sec the only thing that changes is the scale of ships involved, you couldn't therefor accurately distinguishes the LVL of danger between the whole of that system and specifically the site.
Its also maybe true to say that the smaller entities populate the lower classes and therefor the danger is smaller in actuality, but in the OP then did suggest a scaling system to address this. But as all of W-space tends to flow down the classes the people involved will usually be the same. Its just that the danger is diluted by more and more holes.
Say i start in a C5 > C5 then that C5 leads to a C4 that leads to a C2 I still have access to you although with every connection the danger ill find you in the C2 is diluted the more jumps. But once we connect to you the Class of the WH doesn't change the LVL of danger from the high class holes.
I feel i may have explained myself poorly but i can't think of a better way to describe it, simply put if i find you the Class of WH has no affect on the danger i present to you. |
Von Keigai
35
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 18:02:00 -
[702] - Quote
Newt BlackCompany wrote:The net result of this change will be that the big wh alliances will roll into hole after hole, catching and killing anyone escallating or farming anoms. I see people running sites every week. And that is just me, roaming solo in a Manticore, using K162s if I can but mostly opening wormholes myself. Either way, many people's opsec is lousy. So, if they wanted to, those "big wh alliances" could be rolling holes and slaughtering people right now. That they are not any more than they are suggests that they want more incentive to do so. Fozzie is proposing to create more incentive.
Quote:It will greatly increase the risk, without any increase in reward. Wrong. Risk and reward are mediated via the market. (This is not true of blue loot, which sells to unquenchable NPC orders, but it is true of sleeper salvage, gas, and to a slight extent minerals.) You wonder why melted nanoribbons have dropped in price? Because it is so easy to zip up your system and farm anoms in perfect safety.
If PVE fleets start getting ganked, then the supply of melted nanos declines. Price therefore rises and those who take adequate precautions gain. If the ganked fleets contains T3s that are replaced, then demand rises as well, again increasing price. This is bad, of course, for the gankees, who lose far more in their ganked fleet than they make up in the increased price of wormhole stuff. But it is good for the rest of us.
Quote:WH life is already risky enough. No. It isn't. That's what I believe, and that is evidently what Fozzie believes too. And what I think most wormholers believe. Most parts of WH life are plenty risky: that is basically anything that requires moving between systems. Transporting stuff, scouting, hunting. What is not risky enough is the PVE. (At least not in C1-C4.) You seal off a system and it is almost perfectly safe. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 18:19:00 -
[703] - Quote
MadbaM wrote: I feel i may have explained myself poorly but i can't think of a better way to describe it, simply put if i find you the Class of WH has no affect on the danger i present to you.
You're intel is flawed. I've been living in W-space since early 2011. But that is neither here or there.
The reason you feel you may have explained yourself poorly is that there is no clear and concise definition of 'safety'. Look for instance at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/safety where even they struggle. Hence we are back to square 1. It would really help me and I suspect others if CCO Fozzie elaborated quite a bit. More charts! |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1308
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 18:21:00 -
[704] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:
Show me your history of losses of PVE ships in W-Space! according to the info i can find your total PVE losses in W-Space amounts to 1 noctice. Now please tell me how long you have been in W-Space and how much ISK you have made here, confirm this information then resubmit your premise that W-Space is risky enough.
In fact i make that challenge to every PVE entity that has voiced an opinion in this thread, how often do you indeed loose ships to ganks in sites! remove all losses where you get caught on WH's running away. Purely your looses with sleepers on the kill mail, iv lived in W-Space from almost day 1 and i have never lost a ship inside a site to a gank not once.
This change doesn't just effect pve though. People can essentially seed into your system without a wormhole ever appearing. Three dreads in and poof. Hell, an invasion can be in full swing and the defenders roll into you. You have no chance of stopping them from entering the system on the wormhole, as they can warp off before you even know what happened.
Balance is my issue with this. No trolling please |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 18:26:00 -
[705] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:MadbaM wrote: I feel i may have explained myself poorly but i can't think of a better way to describe it, simply put if i find you the Class of WH has no affect on the danger i present to you.
You're intel is flawed. I've been living in W-space since early 2011. But that is neither here or there. The reason you feel you may have explained yourself poorly is that there is no clear and concise definition of 'safety'. Look for instance at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/safety where even they struggle. Hence we are back to square 1. It would really help me and I suspect others if CCO Fozzie elaborated quite a bit. More charts!
1. The condition of being safe; freedom from danger, risk, or injury. (from your link)
Seems clear to me. and there you go again asking Fozzy to clarify something you have just argued cant be clarified WTF do you want? |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 18:29:00 -
[706] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:MadbaM wrote:
Show me your history of losses of PVE ships in W-Space! according to the info i can find your total PVE losses in W-Space amounts to 1 noctice. Now please tell me how long you have been in W-Space and how much ISK you have made here, confirm this information then resubmit your premise that W-Space is risky enough.
In fact i make that challenge to every PVE entity that has voiced an opinion in this thread, how often do you indeed loose ships to ganks in sites! remove all losses where you get caught on WH's running away. Purely your looses with sleepers on the kill mail, iv lived in W-Space from almost day 1 and i have never lost a ship inside a site to a gank not once.
This change doesn't just effect pve though. People can essentially seed into your system without a wormhole ever appearing. Three dreads in and poof. Hell, an invasion can be in full swing and the defenders roll into you. You have no chance of stopping them from entering the system on the wormhole, as they can warp off before you even know what happened. Balance is my issue with this.
The defenders already have the advantage of living in that system for how long? and with a prepared defense in place they need more advantage of a few seconds? but regardless i have already stated in this thread that the K162 being un scanable is probably not balanced and should show and be scanable on the K162 side when you jump from the spawning side (changed from spawning when warp initiated) |
Ian Praetorius
Tenacious Tendencies The Amalgamation Initiative
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 19:08:00 -
[707] - Quote
Read the first 5 pages--have neither the time nor the inclination to read the remaining 30 pages, but as a wormhole resident, I'll briefly add my voice to the chorus.
As was stated several times in the first few pages (and I'm sure ad nauseam throughout this topic), wormhole residents who are being vigilant should have a way of knowing what's coming--a flat delay on the appearance of K162s is a lazy "solution" that doesn't actually fix anything and makes no logical sense. It's already "delayed" due to whatever esoteric method is used to update the scanner. I've gone several minutes unable to see a signature on one character that I could see with the other.
CCP has stated in the past that it was "never our intention for w-space to have permanent residents" (or something extremely close to that). This proposal indicates a complete lack of awareness that pilots do, in fact, live in w-space, a complete lack of caring about the same, or the first steps in an effort to make your initial intentions a reality--I'm not sure which option Mr. Occam would choose.
tl;dr: All of my no. This is an incomprehensibly stupid idea, Mr. Fozzie. You were rather entertaining during NEO II, why you gotta go and be like this? Just tell us you were trolling us this whole time and all will be forgiven.
EDIT: Oh, and give wormholes more than one 30 second clip for a soundtrack. At least give us two--then all will be forgiven. |
MD74
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 19:16:00 -
[708] - Quote
No more ******** ideas, please. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 19:16:00 -
[709] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Bjurn Akely wrote:MadbaM wrote: I feel i may have explained myself poorly but i can't think of a better way to describe it, simply put if i find you the Class of WH has no affect on the danger i present to you.
You're intel is flawed. I've been living in W-space since early 2011. But that is neither here or there. The reason you feel you may have explained yourself poorly is that there is no clear and concise definition of 'safety'. Look for instance at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/safety where even they struggle. Hence we are back to square 1. It would really help me and I suspect others if CCO Fozzie elaborated quite a bit. More charts! 1. The condition of being safe; freedom from danger, risk, or injury. (from your link) Seems clear to me. and there you go again asking Fozzy to clarify something you have just argued cant be clarified WTF do you want?
There is no need for cursing. Calm down. I initially made it clear what I wanted. I would like to get answers to the following questions. I'll separate them and even add one. And remember, these questions are NOT FOR YOU. They are for Fozzie. As I said before, with all respect I do not think you or I know enough to really make good suggestions.
What problem is it you are trying to fix? Too little PvP? In what class of holes (any, C5-6)? Should mining be culled specifically? Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners? Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement? The timers: If there are different timers, are they based on where the hole come from or lead to, or type (ie A239)?
|
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 19:47:00 -
[710] - Quote
Bjurn Akely wrote:
What problem is it you are trying to fix? Too little PvP? In what class of holes (any, C5-6)? Should mining be culled specifically? Do you want some parts to be saver for PvE runners? Or is it a brainstorm thing with no clear objectives and no clear problem statement? The timers: If there are different timers, are they based on where the hole come from or lead to, or type (ie A239)?
Every question has been answered in the OP if you care to look, another person i have to point **** out to.......
CCP Fozzie wrote:the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing
CCP Fozzie wrote:actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets
CCP Fozzie wrote:very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
CCP Fozzie wrote:signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. The change is to K162 that spawn EVERYWHERE
|
|
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1308
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 19:53:00 -
[711] - Quote
I am stealing your list MadbaM
CCP Fozzie wrote:the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing
Correct, which is why it should go back to pre Odyssey settings
CCP Fozzie wrote:actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets
The only corps that don't find active targets are inactive corps. Speaking only for myself and my corp, we have seen no shortage of targets, whether they are PVEing or PvPing.
CCP Fozzie wrote:very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
Ganking is a big part of wormhole life, but I think it's easy enough already
No trolling please |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
53
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 20:04:00 -
[712] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Every question has been answered in the OP if you care to look, another person i have to point **** out to....... CCP Fozzie wrote:the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing CCP Fozzie wrote:actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets CCP Fozzie wrote:very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience. CCP Fozzie wrote:signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. The change is to K162 that spawn EVERYWHERE
Sigh. You don't get it do you? The questions are not for you. But since you think you know the answer to them: Answer them one by one, without cutting and pasting what others have written. As specifically as possible please.
Who knows, perhaps you have it all together and I will feel really dumb. Don't worry, I have no problem admitting it when I'm wrong. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 20:12:00 -
[713] - Quote
Your addressing your questions to Fozzie and i quoted Fozzie from his OP, your asking question to which Fozzie has already given you answers.
I'm seriously starting to question my own sanity here, honestly not sure who the crazy one is but im fairly sure its not me. |
Ian Praetorius
Tenacious Tendencies The Amalgamation Initiative
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 20:26:00 -
[714] - Quote
I just remembered that I can apply spraypaint to my hull so I retract my previous statements in their entirety. Do whatever you want to w-space, I'll be content just spinning my ship inside the POS force field.
Speaking of which, when I say do whatever you want, I mean anything besides revamping POS code--that would just ruin everything. |
Min Mar
Republic University Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 21:28:00 -
[715] - Quote
As others have already asked, I would like to ask what you are trying to fix exactly?
1) If you are trying to make it more risky to run PVE in WHs, I understand. You're trying to limit the ISK faucet, especially in C5/6 situations. Fair enough but please label it as such. In higher class WHs, the advantage already lies with the attackers since they will usually catch you with your dreads in siege. A quick stroll to Quantum Explosion's KB shows they are doing quite well without this "delay". 2) If you're trying to encourage more PvP in WHs, I don't think this is going to get you there. You're telling us an unknown number of ships may have jumped into our WH and we need to fight them off. How many people are going to take that on? It's like jumping into a gate camp without a scout, not a very smart move. 3) If you're trying to move more people to null space where any visitors are immediately visible, this is an impetus. I don't know anything about population distributions in WHs and null, I'll let others speak to that but I'm guessing if you drive people away from WHs, then you will not address the lack of PvP in WHs, you're going to make it worse. 4) Finally, I have to agree with some of my fellow posters: you dumbed down exploration by making sigs/anoms visible upon entry and making scanning so much easier for noobs. You are now getting complaints from folks about the lack of good fights. Being able to gank a PvE running fleet imho is not a good fight and if you think this will force folks to prepare defense fleets to guard against a "delayed" attack, I think you're mistaken.
My suggestion is to put things back to how they were before: Make WHs a battle of the scanners: If I can scan your K162 before you can get your own scanner in and find my ship, I should have a chance to get out. I may not see you in local like I can in null but I should know you could be there, the same time you know I'm here
|
Jack Miton
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3184
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 21:35:00 -
[716] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest). no one is complaining about WHEN you implement this change, theyre complaining about you implementing it at all, ever.
to reiterate, sigs should not auto pop up on scanner but they should always be probable. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Winthorp
1409
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 21:48:00 -
[717] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest).
Thanks for posting to ensure this thread gets another 30 pages of the same argument. /rolls eyes
Perhaps it could have been better if you could provide some feedback on your design goals for your idea. Do your statistics indicate there isn't enough PVP going on or is there too much PVE going on, more then CCP would like?
Any chance you could give us some statistics as to what your going on with your idea flipping the board game to a side of a very dangerous WH space? Please don't stick the hard line that releasing statistics breaks immersion of gameplay, we would like to argue against your current iteration of your ideas with the figures you are working on that lead you to your idea.
Also you mentioned in your OP that the design team is looking at several ideas, if the only one idea you have mentioned is this bad (And its no longer just my opinion it is bad anymore, its 30 pages of whats looking like 90% of people agree its a bad idea) can we please hear your other ideas or concepts you are looking into?
If you want to get our community involvement please do it with us in a more meaningful way and less token piece please.
(Insert witty signature here) |
Ian Praetorius
Tenacious Tendencies The Amalgamation Initiative
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 21:55:00 -
[718] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest). Thanks for posting to ensure this thread gets another 30 pages of the same argument. /rolls eyes Perhaps it could have been better if you could provide some feedback on your design goals for your idea. Do your statistics indicate there isn't enough PVP going on or is there too much PVE going on, more then CCP would like? Any chance you could give us some statistics as to what your going on with your idea flipping the board game to a side of a very dangerous WH space? Please don't stick the hard line that releasing statistics breaks immersion of gameplay, we would like to argue against your current iteration of your ideas with the figures you are working on that lead you to your idea. Also you mentioned in your OP that the design team is looking at several ideas, if the only one idea you have mentioned is this bad (And its no longer just my opinion it is bad anymore, its 30 pages of whats looking like 90% of people agree its a bad idea) can we please hear your other ideas or concepts you are looking into? If you want to get our community involvement please do it with us in a more meaningful way and less token piece please.
QFT.
Also, if the first 5 pages were any indication, many of the people in that 10% (by their own admission) don't even live in friggin' w-space and thus their opinions should be taken with a 2-3 tablespoons of salt. |
Winthorp
1410
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 21:58:00 -
[719] - Quote
Ian Praetorius wrote: QFT.
Also, if the first 5 pages were any indication, many of the people in that 10% (by their own admission) don't even live in friggin' w-space and thus their opinions should be taken with 2-3 tablespoons of salt.
You should go on to read a few more pages after the people that came in the first few pages most likely came into this from a reddit link. And i agree those 10% that do like Fozzies idea prob don't live in Wh space to understand how bad this would be.
And i wasn't trolling at all, was a legit post. (Insert witty signature here) |
Karen Galeo
Sin Factory Infinite Anarchy
21
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 23:04:00 -
[720] - Quote
Mea culpa. I have had a few things brought to my attention, and I need to admit that cloaking the K162 for even 30 seconds after it spawns would be too long.
Author of the Karen 162 blog. Karen Galeo is running for CSM9! |
|
NinjaTurtle
Carte Blanche. Trading
76
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 23:04:00 -
[721] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest).
That's cool cause I think a few of us there will have something to day about it lol Thank you for having the grace to get the ball rolling early Fozzie, we do appreciate that. Co-host and editor of Declarations of War Podcast http://declarationsofwar.com Twitter- @schertt |
Alundil
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
443
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 06:04:00 -
[722] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest). Thanks for posting to ensure this thread gets another 30 pages of the same argument. /rolls eyes Perhaps it could have been better if you could provide some feedback on your design goals for your idea. Do your statistics indicate there isn't enough PVP going on or is there too much PVE going on, more then CCP would like? Any chance you could give us some statistics as to what your going on with your idea flipping the board game to a side of a very dangerous WH space? Please don't stick the hard line that releasing statistics breaks immersion of gameplay, we would like to argue against your current iteration of your ideas with the figures you are working on that lead you to your idea. Also you mentioned in your OP that the design team is looking at several ideas, if the only one idea you have mentioned is this bad (And its no longer just my opinion it is bad anymore, its 30 pages of whats looking like 90% of people agree its a bad idea) can we please hear your other ideas or concepts you are looking into? If you want to get our community involvement please do it with us in a more meaningful way and less token piece please.
Oh Winnie - farming likes are you?
Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Janeway84
Masters Of Destiny Pride Before Fall
78
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 12:07:00 -
[723] - Quote
Id prefer pre oddessey since the way the system is now its way to easy for any1 watching the signature window without any probes out to see that you gridded into their wh and for them to make a quick escape most of the time depending on factors..
|
Bloemkoolsaus
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
145
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 13:33:00 -
[724] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:sigs should not auto pop up on scanner but they should always be probable.
This. Really simple
|
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
379
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 13:59:00 -
[725] - Quote
So how long do have to wait for a minor change (delayed automagical wh sig popup)? 5 expansion cycles? W-Space Realtor |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:00:00 -
[726] - Quote
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:Jack Miton wrote:sigs should not auto pop up on scanner but they should always be probable. This. Really simple
I would actually like to see the Discovery Scanner merged somehow with DScan so that you only have to mash one button to check for new sigs anywhere in the system (but with normal dscan range limits for everything else). How's that for an interesting idea?
Then I wouldn't have to go to all the trouble of diverting a pilot to a boring probe spamming activity or having to do it myself on an alt, forcing me to spam two buttons which is just crap gameplay. I mean I'll do it, and so will anyone else who wants to live, but I somehow doubt the market is going to compensate me for the trouble in terms of the improvement to loot values.
Anyway, gameplay wise, I would prefer only having to mash one button on one account to help protect my fleet from ganks. |
Lilli Tane
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
11
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:09:00 -
[727] - Quote
Sniped from the OP
CCP Fozzie wrote:.... We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source. ...
This paragraph worries me,b]GÇ£but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigsGÇ¥[/b], this trick requires someone to be actively vigilant, and constantly scanning for new signatures, i don't know what CCP plans are but please, don-¦t make more changes that will penalize active play over passive play.
If a fleet is for example running sites, someone will spend all the required time to run such sites spamming the probe scan button to know if a new signature pop up, itGÇÖs not something doing automatically and requires player attention.
Odyssey, automated this process, by updating all the signatures in a system automatically, consequently, removing the edge of being actively vigilant over being passive, and so penalizing corporations that used the active system before (something that I want to believe it was just overlooked at the time).
second snipe from the OP
CCP Fozzie wrote: ... The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes. ...
Making a change that will place a delay on signatures, bout on the sensor overlay and on the active probe scanning, will further penalize being active vigilant.
I donGÇÖt know what will come up of the changes, or how they will affect W-space, one thing IGÇÖm sure, whatever system comes out of it, should always give an edge on players that are actively keeping watch.
As always, the game mechanics should reward those that actively play the game.
|
Oscar Lon Anderson
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 14:23:00 -
[728] - Quote
As a fairly new full time wspace resident, the non probable K162 looks bad. I wouldn't mind it not appearing on the overview as I'm mostly relying on probes/dscan to know what's around me.
For me probes should give an indication of every exits in the hole. If I'm mapping down my chain it'll slow me down as I won't be able to tell the sig N-¦ I just created until the delay expires in the hole i just opened.
If you're dead set on delayin the K162 probing, make the delay apply to their very existence and thus their appearance on grid too: no going back for K162 spawners until the K162 sig shows and the K162 hole appears on grid. This way it's coherent system-wide, there's just an entrance from another system in that system, no exit in this one.
TL;DR Not fond of shr+¦edinger's K162 which half exists only for some people. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
123
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 15:12:00 -
[729] - Quote
36 pages already, yikes.
So an idea that may or may not have been covered already. Give the K162 side a spawn delay, but also give the originating side a "Stabilization Delay" for large mass transits. Allow an initial wh transit to be VERY mass limited, say 1 cruiser or something, or less. The mechanic would work such that the scanners (small number, small ships) could jump into the wh before the K162 appears, scout any potential targets during some random and short time period, and have a fleet staged and ready to go once the wh stabilized. But, once it stabilized, it would immediately show up on dscan/overlay. This IMHO would promote active gameplay and perhaps introduce some danger back into WH life. It would also promote and showcase the capabilities of your fast and light tackle due to the recent warp changes. Active PVE'ers could catch this before the enemy fleet was on them, but only if they were paying proper attention. Well organized and aggressive attack fleets would be promoted as well, made up of multiple ship classes to facilitate the trapping and holding of the target fleet.
Just some thoughts that I have conjured up, my apologies if this has already been covered in whole or part earlier in the thread... Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you... |
Alundil
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
444
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 15:51:00 -
[730] - Quote
First - I really f***ing hate this forum software CCP - it blows majorly and loves to eat posts. Talking "Sarlacc's Pit" level of suckage. And the draft function is almost equally useless and whyTF are there two post buttons when making replies grrr ccp forums grrrr (I feel a little better now)
Lilli Tane wrote:Sniped from the OP CCP Fozzie wrote:.... We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source. ...
This paragraph worries me, GÇ£but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigsGÇ¥, this trick requires someone to be actively vigilant, and constantly scanning for new signatures, i don't know what CCP plans are but please, don-¦t make more changes that will penalize active play over passive play. If a fleet is for example running sites, someone will spend all the required time to run such sites spamming the probe scan button to know if a new signature pop up, itGÇÖs not something doing automatically and requires player attention. Odyssey, automated this process, by updating all the signatures in a system automatically, consequently, removing the edge of being actively vigilant over being passive, and so penalizing corporations that used the active system before (something that I want to believe it was just overlooked at the time).
I completely share the concern you have regarding the bolded part of that passage. If Fozzie/CCP has other ideas on how to improve w-space I'm sure we'd all love to hear/read them so that we can discuss pros/cons of "all the things".
However, when the only idea released to the public is this one and it comes with the implied "...well the other things we thought about are less good than this..." it simply smacks of "We prefer this idea because (insert reason) and are going to implement it regardless." This has happened before, many more times than once (in fact discovery scanner is one such instance....how funny that we should find ourselves here again....again).
Hopefully CCP realizes that if they want this change to succeed then honest, transparent and open communication and publishing of proposals must happen (NDA permitting goes without saying). Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
|
HIOIIIA
Death Magnetic. Legion of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 16:32:00 -
[731] - Quote
-ü-ü-Ç, are you crazy?)) why? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
630
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 17:02:00 -
[732] - Quote
I'd agree with jack - sigs should always be probable by any party when useable by one or more - auto popping up on scanner doesn't really bother me either way but it would be more in the theme of w-space if they were delayed there.
If the k162 side didn't spawn until someone actually jumped it would be a bit of an improvement there and give people less time to safe up.
Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
144
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 17:40:00 -
[733] - Quote
I'm not a part of your system! I threw it on the GROUND! |
ORK31
KAPITAL18
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 18:03:00 -
[734] - Quote
-+-¦-¦-+-+-¦-¦-+-+ -ì-é-+ -¦-¦-Ç-¦-+-ï, -+-Ç-+-¦-â-+-¦-+-+ -ü-+-+-¦-¦ -¦-¦-¦-â-Ä -é-+ -à-Ç-¦-+-î |
Howen
Order Pioneers
7
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 20:02:00 -
[735] - Quote
First think, it's a game it's not an mouse click fest.CCP Do you really know how much stupid repetative action your game dev dilever us?Planetary interaction was a CLICKFEST. Scanning and probing is a CLICKFEST TOO.Especially direct scan. Capital fleet in c6 and c5 is sitting duck .No matter how hard you will try but if k162 With welcome flleet (20 t3 2 dreads 1 triage carrier)open it''s dead anyway( or maybe you have 20 dreads in your home system?). So maybe when wh emerge it will be like a cyno for 2min. Caps are in siege small ships are tackled by sleepers.So what for? did Aperture harmonics pay you to pull this?Or maybe blood union? Let's make a blob more effecient in gank again?When apocrypha introduced wormholes it was like a sanctum for a small teamed corps.Now we have an alliencies there with flying systems.Wanna pvp reopen your hole up to infinity times a day.If you wanna make a challenge to them make a sleeper titan which can 1 shot their dreadnoughts.Make them pay a price it's a DANGEROUS place.More people more chance to spawn titan.Or maybe sleeper camps?Try to get off your box.We need more ships we need more tank. |
Bussan
Kabukicho
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 20:36:00 -
[736] - Quote
Yeah, let's make it more dangerous with some illogical new ideas, so people will just leave wh completely. First the so called carebears, because they won't be able to do anything... then pvp/pve ones, that cannot get enough isks to replace lost pvp ships... then pvp-only ones, because they will be the only ones roaming around, and 90% of them never look for a real fight (pvp vs pvp) and just wanna get kill mails... but with desert wormholes they won't have any target.
So WH space will go back to what it was meant to be at the beginning... a place where people will go for daily trips, aware that they can easily loose their ships... but how many will actually risk that?
With the proposed new system, there is just no way to defend yourself from an aggressor, because you have no way to know they are out there. Unless they are so stupid to show up on d-scan, or start using probes.
So the only things people will actually be able to do with a moderate safety will be gas/data/relic sites. Nothing else. Just because they have to be probed, and at least you can span dscan for unknown probes trying to probing you or your sig.
I'm not sure that the only way to make WH life better is making life easier for gankers.... Already mining got killed moving belts on anoms (yeah, some people still mine, but they do it aware that sooner or later they will be podded. Because even if they can see new sigs spawning, honestly if an inty spawned the k162, and then warp to all the ore anoms, they will likely catch the miners before they leave.)
I don't get why most of the changes done in EVE have to be made to increase or make easier the pvp. Go on like that, and many people will just do other things, or stop playing. My corp for sure would leave W-space if these ideas will pass.
I think that to increase pvp in wh, the best way is to have more people coming in them, both to "live" there or just for daily trips. More people = more chances of fights. Because W-space IS already dangerous... you are never 100% safe out there. Add content, add loot, add some cool things people will want to do/get/try... don't change mechanics that are already working, unless you really improve them, keeping in mind all the aspects of them game, not just the pvp part.
|
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1366
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 20:46:00 -
[737] - Quote
I know we've reached "dead horse" status, but I did get quite a few mails for an article on this subject, so here it is:
[No-Local News] Signature Delay | My Opinion
Please feel free to comment, like, share, whatever you want, and thanks for continuing to read! CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's
145
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 20:57:00 -
[738] - Quote
Rroff wrote: Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.
I remember the old drug and alcohol free Rroff - He didn't make much sense either but he was a lot easier to cuddle. Le sigh. The Nexus 7's
What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity |
Atum' Ra
Nomen-illis-Legio Legion of xXDEATHXx
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 21:37:00 -
[739] - Quote
As for me delay the appearance of the signature beacon is not a good idea at all. Better make something for player which want to live there, but don't want to push scan every 3 sec.
p.s. One good idea: give player the ability to construct gate on WH (the gate must be destroyable). After that many people will settle there.
-ÿ -ü-+-Ç-+-ü-+-+ -¦-¦-+: -¦-¦-¦ -é-¦-¦-¦ -+-+-Å? -ÿ -+-+ -ü-¦-¦-+-¦-+ -¦ -+-é-¦-¦-é: -+-¦-¦-+-+-+ -+-+-Å -+-+-¦, -+-+-é-+-+-â -ç-é-+ -+-¦-ü -+-+-+-¦-+ (-£-¦, 5:9) |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
631
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 21:43:00 -
[740] - Quote
Bussan wrote:Yeah, let's make it more dangerous with some illogical new ideas, so people will just leave wh completely. First the so called carebears, because they won't be able to do anything... then pvp/pve ones, that cannot get enough isks to replace lost pvp ships... then pvp-only ones, because they will be the only ones roaming around, and 90% of them never look for a real fight (pvp vs pvp) and just wanna get kill mails... but with desert wormholes they won't have any target.
Its something that sometimes people don't seem to be able to see in this game and I think this idea is somewhat down that road - you can't force people to be your targets, change the game rules to bully them and they will just quit or find something else to do. |
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
631
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 21:44:00 -
[741] - Quote
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:Rroff wrote: Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.
I remember the old drug and alcohol free Rroff - He didn't make much sense either but he was a lot easier to cuddle. Le sigh.
It wasn't really a serious suggestion. |
Tvashnar Crendraven
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 22:09:00 -
[742] - Quote
The originally proposed change seems rather poorly thought out.
The only way a wh occupant can identify a new k162 is by having probes out and scanning down the sig; a new sig in the scanner window can be any one of several different sites. In order to cope with the proposed change, the wh pilot need only switch from core probes to combat probes (if he wasn't already using them) and watch for new ship sigs. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
488
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 22:18:00 -
[743] - Quote
Tvashnar Crendraven wrote:The originally proposed change seems rather poorly thought out.
The only way a wh occupant can identify a new k162 is by having probes out and scanning down the sig; a new sig in the scanner window can be any one of several different sites. In order to cope with the proposed change, the wh pilot need only switch from core probes to combat probes (if he wasn't already using them) and watch for new ship sigs.
An equally poorly thought out idea, since a ship can jump through a WH, move off the hole, and cloak in less time than the lowest probe cycle time on a max skill char with implants. |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 22:44:00 -
[744] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe. oooh, on-grid WH.... theres an interesting idea...
W-Space Realtor |
Vladislav Intakki
Production and Research Corporation Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 22:50:00 -
[745] - Quote
ccp uses narcotics. awful patch |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1148
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 00:56:00 -
[746] - Quote
C5/6 wormholes have become deeply stagnant, predictable and, frankly, dull. Everything is known, everything is mapped. I don't what the answer is but pissing about with minor changes to the WH spawn dynamics is not it. |
urfkd
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 04:14:00 -
[747] - Quote
Well I think there are more important things to fix in W-Space.
Beside the awful POS system and corp rights, why not simply hiding the sig until someone jumped trough the WH?
I mean, if you guys are looking to increase the PVP opportunities.. just make wormholes more attractive for outsiders.
And while you're at it, why not removing local in nullsec? |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
394
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 04:39:00 -
[748] - Quote
Haven't read through the threadnaught but as a frequent poster in this forum here we go:
The old way was livable; anybody smart was spamming probes anyways, so it was only a slight change for us hunting wise.
I think delaying the signatures gives a huge advantage to PVP players, because there's literally nothing you can do to prevent it. Even running combat scanner probes constantly, there's still a chance they could sneak in and cloak up and you could miss them; and d-scan wouldn't be reliable for things out of range. This would greatly benefit my hunting style, but that doesn't mean it's the right choice to make for wormhole space.
The longest the delay should be is 20-30 seconds; 2 minutes is an eternity for a good scout. If you implement this kind of change, you need to take a serious look at delaying local in null-sec, because they don't even have to try out there with local, and if you're challenging that K162s instantly popping is too easy, then instant local when you're 40 jumps from the nearest Empire space is definitely BS.
We've frequently tossed around the idea in corp that local should be delayed or non-existent in null unless you install upgrades, forcing null-seccers to upgrade systems they want to have good visibility in. But that's escaping the original post a bit.
Don't delay the sig 2 minutes; it's an unfair advantage catering to PVPers, which is not the purpose of creating neutral ground.
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Bad League of Legends Player. |
Patient Zero1
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Ragnarok.
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 07:53:00 -
[749] - Quote
As a former member of a notorious WH farming alliance, and now a member of a notorious PVP corp......
I'd have to say that adding a delay to it showing up on the overlay would be fine, but anyone smart enough to have active probes out scanning for new sigs, shouldn't experience any delay(some kind of disconnect from your d-scan menu and the overlay..? hell i dunno). If you're decent, hunting people doing some farming at this point isn't really too hard. So basically, if someone is spending the time and effort to be aware of whats around them, they should be able to, if they're mindlessly farming and not paying attention...well then screw 'em. |
Jack Miton
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3193
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 08:40:00 -
[750] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe. yeah, im sure that's exactly what people want, to scan a new WH, jump through and be in the middle of 20 sleeper BSs and a half dozen hostile dreads.... ffs, use your brain. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
|
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
381
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 08:50:00 -
[751] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Rroff wrote:Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe. yeah, im sure that's exactly what people want, to scan a new WH, jump through and be in the middle of 20 sleeper BSs and a half dozen hostile dreads.... ffs, use your brain. on behalf of SSC, i can honestly say we would want that...
But seriously, its a quirky mechanic to be considered in some form. Maybe add some trigger into escalations that has a chance to open a hole between escalated grid (100-200km?) and some other random hole of the same class? W-Space Realtor |
QT McWhiskers
Hard Knocks Inc.
384
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 09:21:00 -
[752] - Quote
Dunno if this has been stated yet, not reading through 23 pages of spurging. But this kind of change would completely change the game of rage rolling. For those that dont know, rage rolling means rolling the static wormhole looking for a specific class. Like say when lead farmers were invaded. Hard Knocks wormhole is a c5-c5 wormhole. So is leadfarmers. Since there are 500 and some change c5 wormholes, if we roll our static enough, statistically we will eventually reach it.
In the past, rage rolling against people who are on the ball about scanning new sigs has been a very slippery slope. When your scout warps in and reports you have the correct hole, enemy scouts are already scanning this sig. This gives us less than a minute to jump our fleet in and get off grid before being overwhelmed by enemy subs and caps. In fact if a bubble goes up before the majority of the fleet makes it in, then the effort has already been for naught.
But with these new proposed changes, you significantly increase the time we have to move our fleets in. Even if it is only 1 minute, that is enough time to warp our fleet to the hole, jump in, and get to safety even webbing a few caps off grid and into safes for the defenders to start giving us pos passwords. Now they will have to rely on combat scanning, which is much harder. Even then when they do get us at 100 percent, we are already warped to random safes so that we can get into a pos.
This significantly boosts rage rolling and pretty much makes the defense of a wormhole come down to will the rage rollers actually get the connection. Because with these changes, if they do connect, the defenders will have a massive advantage. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
632
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:22:00 -
[753] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Rroff wrote:Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe. yeah, im sure that's exactly what people want, to scan a new WH, jump through and be in the middle of 20 sleeper BSs and a half dozen hostile dreads.... ffs, use your brain.
Guess the way I was meaning it didn't convey very well over the internet - wasn't exactly a serious suggestion more of a flippant if we are going to make changes lets stir it up proper. |
Jasper Goodal
W-Systems Hypercube alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:42:00 -
[754] - Quote
I think it's a bad idea. This patch will make scanning less effective in regions, where scanning is must-have to survive. Some time ago onboard scanners began to find sleeper anomalies. Okay. But I think timer to find K162 is fully unneccessary thing. Because of instant target locking from bombers after decloak. WH citizens will have no opportunity to protect themselves against PVPers from K162.
|
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:42:00 -
[755] - Quote
Terrible idea. The amount of cross holes I get has already gone up significantly in the last year or two, which I am sure is intentional on CCP's part to increase pew. All well and good, but now it is pretty common for me to have 2 or 3 cross holes, and a nulsec or random losec AS WELL AS the static in my C3.
This happens 4 or 5 days a week. Don't you think that keeps me on my toes?
And now you want to give invaders several minutes of free time to bring in entire fleets with no warning whatsoever? Since they could form up on their side of the hole, and all click enter at once, and then have enough time to warp to a safe spot before being scanned even by an active combat probe scanner. (Scanned down, not just detected)
Pretty much everything in the last year or two has been in the favour of the ganker. Shouldn't the defender have at least a few seconds of warning, or does CCP believe blob vs. unaware outnumbered persons constitutes "PVP" ?
Invaders might as well be shooting npc's for all the risk they take already. Giving them even more of an advantage is just ridiculous. |
After Shok
Ruthenia Co
383
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 11:59:00 -
[756] - Quote
CCP Fozzie - Before you do anything with the scanning system, repair the bugs. I talked about this with CCP Leeloo, but as I understand she is not redistribution. -ƒ-Ç-¦-¦-¦-+-¦ -+-¦-+-î-+-Å -+-ü-¦-+-Ç-¦-+-é-î, -â-¦-¦-¦-¦-¦-+-ï-¦ -¦-¦-¦-+-¦-¦-é! -ó-+-é -ü-¦-+-ï-¦ -£-Ä-+-à-¦-¦-â-+-¦-+ |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
33
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 19:46:00 -
[757] - Quote
Been watching my corps WH activity since this thread started.
In that time not once when rolling our static was the other side doing escalations or just finishing a site. There were pos's in every WH we encountered and in only a few cases was there any activity. For instance the first chain today had more than 15 WHs in it with virtually no activity and that included the C5 with one of the larger WH corps in it.( no one was really home)However, we did get a site running fleet by exploring and moving down the entire chain. We did roll into a pi+¦ata and while we looted there was one person on line who watched us.
if you want PVP you can find it, but have to search. So it seems to me this change is being pushed by lazy PVPers who want to just roll from the relative safety of their home WH until they find a fleet so that they can gank. Some of the most fun I have had and seen my corps mates have is when exploring and finding things deep in the chain and ending up in a brawl with multiple corps. I admit that most of the time the corps does NS roams, but even with these some NS WHs are left alone because those areas of NS are boring for them.
seems to me that what we need is more content so more times corps will be out of their home base.
The other argument I see being made in an offhand way is that there is too much ISK being made depressing market prices. Well, it takes about one siege cycle of the dreads in our escalation fleet to take down a fully escalated C5 site. With that sort of speed you make lots of isk and reduce the chance of other corps even finding you making isk. Out of an entire week the corps might have ships in sites for 6 hours. Now think about the chances of running into us while we are site running( 6 out of 168 possible). Now extrapolate the chance you will have against a well run operation in taking it down given mass limits on WHs. As has happened to us in the past the WH was simply rerolled while we remained on site. If we roll into a comparable fleet with home field advantage even the most ardent of our PVPers are going to ignore it, suicide is just not worth it. So for those of us that can farm our anoms we do it quickly and pretty much with total autonomy that this proposal does nothing to address. All it does is make it so we cannot respond to the opening of the WH before it is closed. ISK streams also increased due to that nice Gas harvester we all wanted. Of course some of the decrease in isk is also due to the nerf on the tengu and the lack of T3 use outside of WH space (supply and demand)
So how do we fix? Get rid of escalations!. Face it we know how to milk these for all their worth in the larger corps. Make it so sites cannot be farmed! Lower the number of sleeper anoms so that corps have to explore and set up shop outside their home system more often to get ISK and increase the respawn rate so they do not all end up in that Black hole system no one wants to be in. Add more hidden content that requires scanning. Ore sites, gas sites, ice sites, ghost sites. You may have to make them smaller so the impact of having more is decreased. The key here is to get corps moving which will help with your fights as you call them. Make both sides (carebear and PVPer) have to work for the game they want. Make blackholes a place that you might want to set up shop in so that sites get activated there Make sure T3s have value outside of WH space and in PVP so demand remains strong.
I make good money with the escalations fleet so this is not an easy proposal to make. But the current proposal being made just makes for bad gaming all the way around. No one wants to die in a firefight they had no chance against. We have a fight or flight mechanism wired into our brains for the reason, not being able to engage it will just lead to frustration which will lead to a reduced player base which is exactly what we do not want. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
490
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 20:19:00 -
[758] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote: So how do we fix? Get rid of escalations!. Face it we know how to milk these for all their worth in the larger corps.
So... remove the primary source of income that makes living several holes deep into WH space a viable choice for a large group that might spend 5-15 Bil a month in POS fuel and require hauling in a few million M3 of fuel, ships, ammo, etc on a regular basis in order to PvP and fuel towers, and leave them effectively destitute?
Oh yes, I'm sure that removing the primary income of all of the high level groups is a great way to make sure that there is a substantial population in WH's.
I'm sure that as soon as home site anoms drop to a fraction of their value, corps won't do something like lose half their players that are now unable to support their PvP habits by living in a WH.
Removing 90% of the income of a group and forcing them to run c5 marauder teams or spread alts around several holes for personal PvE in NOT a good direction for WH's.
I'm guessing you make the vast majority of your money on an alt, or unrelated to escalations entirely.
|
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
456
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 22:38:00 -
[759] - Quote
Chopping off escalations is not the answer, but a modification to it would not hurt.
Escalations should be room based. Meaning that sites could be run without bringing out a capital to "escalate it".
Room 1, normal spawn, bonus room 2, a escalation spawn, bonus room 3, tietary spawn, (none needing capitals to spawn them). Make them warp points. Its not much of a modification but essentially escalations are wormhole bonus rooms. You can remove escalations and make it room based. This doesn't fix the issue of the pew though.
You need more people outside the shields and you need to make wormhole space have a greater value than salvaging wrecks.
Aka, you need wormhole loot (ship based modules that function subpar to t2 equipment, but function much higher when overheated (you have a wormhole blaster fit, can take t2 ammo, unheated, does less damage than the normal t2 blaster, heated, does more damage than a heated t2 blaster). Similar modules can be implemented with active tanking modules.
Relic and data sites should have no sleepers, but should have a warp bubble around it (more gank chances)
You really should not be able to crit a static (or collapse it) and make your wormhole completely isolated from all space by not opening the new static (it's not hole control, its total isolation, your own pretty pve dungeon).
You half mass a static, spawn a new wormhole, Wormhole hits the reaches natural lifespan message, spawn a new wormhole. If either has been reached and a new wormhole has already spawned, do not spawn a new static.
In all cases, at some point, you'll have 2 wormholes
There should not be way for a single person to totally lock down a wormhole (and rage rolling a new one ain't the answer either)
Is this less secure. You betcha. You'll have to carebear in your dead end system just like everybody else does, with a scout on the gate and a order to starburst if a unknown neutral or alt shows up.
Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Sarai Caldera
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 01:11:00 -
[760] - Quote
If players can enter a hole without having the hole show up, there shouldn't be a hole in that system.
I propose it goes like this, when a wormhole is formed it takes x minutes to stabilize. If you jump through before it stabilizes you get dumped in a random part of the system unable to get back until the wormhole stabilizes on your side. This would mean that people would be stuck and be scattered everywhere. |
|
Zarthie Severasse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 13:41:00 -
[761] - Quote
Sounds like an awful idea that will make high class WH's even safer.
Without the ability to control home system, people will blob capitals on sites to ensure overwhelming invading forces.
Please leave the blob wars to where it belongs, to null sec. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
633
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 13:50:00 -
[762] - Quote
[quote=Phoenix Jones
You really should not be able to crit a static (or collapse it) and make your wormhole completely isolated from all space by not opening the new static (it's not hole control, its total isolation, your own pretty pve dungeon).
You half mass a static, spawn a new wormhole, Wormhole hits the reaches natural lifespan message, spawn a new wormhole. If either has been reached and a new wormhole has already spawned, do not spawn a new static.
In all cases, at some point, you'll have 2 wormholes
There should not be way for a single person to totally lock down a wormhole (and rage rolling a new one ain't the answer either)
Is this less secure. You betcha. You'll have to carebear in your dead end system just like everybody else does, with a scout on the gate and a order to starburst if a unknown neutral or alt shows up.
[/quote]
Even with control of your static you still have incoming wormholes and login traps, etc. to worry about. While my earlier idea in itself wasn't meant seriously there is potential for linking risk and reward with higher end content in all classes via some sort of change to incoming wormholes and/or some correlation between that and the actions of players within a system. Messing with statics imo isn't the answer. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Illusion of Solitude
690
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 15:20:00 -
[763] - Quote
CCp , I applaud the idea of making wormhole space a little more active, there is much of merit, and some existing problems that restrict it.
Hiding incoming wormholes will do nothing to improve things, and in fact will cause harm to the overall life of it's inhabitants.
There is no such thing as risk free farming in wormholes. It can work for a while, There are those that try, but eventually BOB shows them otherwise.
Risk is an accepted part of wormhole life and even when taking all precautions things can still bite you in the ass in any class of wormhole, so please disregard this thought, it is simply an old wives tale.
However, one of the things that is often lacking is as simple as the amount of traffic, sometimes it can be like being on the end of a country track.. That can change in a hurry however with interesting effects.
So do not implement any part of the OP suggestion in any form but do all of the the following together...
1. Add an additional static to every class of wormhole. 2. Make all sites in wormholes require scanning. 3. Remove on screen sensor sweep in all classes of wormhole. 4. Identify each type of signature on first core or combat scan pass. 5. Retain scan results when jumping holes and returning while in same ship. 6. Increase spawn rate of wandering wormholes by 10% 7. Make black holes wormhole superhubs with many many wandering incoming connections,Leave their stats otherwise unchanged. 8. Single 10 second flash of dscan window when k162 is opened. 9. The value of blue loot and improved opportunities for gas and ore sites (new product with a npc purchase value) would be needed to balance the significantly increased losses incurred as a result of these changes. Note: not to provide an increase of overall rewards. The entire combination will increase traffic and prevent an excessive increase of easy kills of the alert, while giving additional opportunities to engage in combat/baiting as well as ensuring the benefit continues of an alert active play methodology. .
In summation if all these changes occurred together then this would make wormhole life more active, encourage people to travel further, encourage more destructive interaction. In combination this will be balanced to increase gains and losses in equal amounts without disrupting the market by using npc purchases to balance the overall changes. Npc price value can be adjusted to maintain equilibrium and level of interaction.
Please note in isolation almost all of these changes would be massively out of balance and destructive. Only in combination as an overall rebalance could this work. Please do not be tempted to pick and choose and only accept some. Great harm would result....... There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Megan DeMonet
The RedNeck Posse Praetorian Directorate
20
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 22:53:00 -
[764] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
would that depend on what one considers the "best part" A Priest, a Rabbi, and an Imam walk into a bar...... |
Megan DeMonet
The RedNeck Posse Praetorian Directorate
20
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 23:17:00 -
[765] - Quote
i think we should do away with all pve entirely. who the f*** wants to mine and fight rats anyway. we all know all we all want is mass genocide. It don't matter what race is left standing, as long as all the others are gone. Put everything in the game on NPC market, set prices for it. and lets do this game rt.
I have no idea where we will get our ISk from to but the stuff on market. But Who The F*** cares. long as there is no PvE.
for all you clowns that want to pick this apart. look up the word sarcasm before you do.javascript:if%20(typeof%20posting=='undefined'||posting!=true)%20{posting=true;__doPostBack('forum$ctl00$PostReply','');} A Priest, a Rabbi, and an Imam walk into a bar...... |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13408
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 02:43:00 -
[766] - Quote
having thought about it some more, I don't think this type of delay will make a noticeable difference, in terms of gameplay or in the books.
I'm thinking of the surprisingly frequent occasions when I will scan a sig and have eyes on the k162 in time to see a scout jump in from the originating end and pop probes to scout.
There's no telling what takes them so long to jump through a hole they should know they opened... maybe it's admin stuff, like udpating siggy and creating bookmarks according to a naming convention. they might be passing through, and have no knowledge of what holes are new. but it happens a lot, and most of the time it is a resident of the originating system.
there's also the fact that bigger ships warp slow. things will reduce the benefit of a delay.
There are ways to maximize the benefit of a delay, like pinging as close as possible to an unopened static, with all the things that mean to use the hole (and not just the scout)..
that leaves a handful of situations that I can think of, in which a signature delay would make a difference, even if only under some very specific circumstances...
but I think that over time, in practice, the majority of those cases will yield no noticeable difference in their average outcome... not that you could determine such a thing.
so yeah, I've had some time to put my rabble aside and take another look at what it would really do. ...and I don't see a delay yielding your desired result, or even a result that you will see in the numbers.
I hope you do something like add depth to the game by improving signature mechanics, instead of a band-aid like a delay on one specific signature. President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Luc'Nab
The cult of Lenin
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 08:53:00 -
[767] - Quote
bad idea. There are so many way to kill on farm. and thats one to kill without loses from atackers.
all problem form mushrooms TS? |
Jane Cumberwaffle
The cult of Lenin
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 08:58:00 -
[768] - Quote
Lol, rly? No 162? Can some one tell me, for what? I think it's not rly good idea =) Do something thats rly need ingame, or dont do anything plz |
Emika Neosignal
White Trap Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 11:23:00 -
[769] - Quote
It's bad idea. Don't touch WH mechanic pzl, w-space have awesome atmosphere. All moves with K-162, local chat and etc. can destroy philosophy of wormholes. Make your experiments at lolsec's and lullsec's. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
456
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 11:59:00 -
[770] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far.
One thing I want to clarify so that people don't panic, this proposal and any potential change on this scale would not be in the cards for the Summer expansion. We want to get the discussion going early with the intent of continuing it over time (especially at Fanfest).
Good deal Fozzie. I am a bit surprised with the suggestion even being floated, though to have an open discussion, you have to talk about everything, good or bad. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
|
Shyzandra
EyEs.FR Dominatus Atrum Mortis
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 13:41:00 -
[771] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:
None of the above addresses the real issue. How to get people to fight, how to get good combat, and how to really see more wormhole pvp (both large gang and small gang).
Nobody is addressing the problems. Either because they don't know what the problems are, or they don't want to acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place.
Please, dont talk without having read the complete topic... You're embarrassing yourself... And if you did read, please, do it again... Lot of us already raised those problems and even came up with some possible solutions to make capsulers fight in W-space... |
Billy Hix
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
139
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 22:03:00 -
[772] - Quote
I just wanted to add my voice to the "Remove overlay, no delay and actively scanning with probes can see WH as they appear" side of the argument. |
Gabhrael Lyrian
Eye of the Void
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 23:11:00 -
[773] - Quote
The instant accessibility of this is an issue, but I LOVE the sensor overlay in known space. It's cool to kind of gaze at the spacehorizon, and then head there. Don't remove it! A few ideas: 1-Bring back ship scanners, and have all ships automatically scan upon jump-in or undock. This should keep the "exploration" incentive while keeping the time-cost of information reasonable. 2-Place the ship scanner on a 10-30 second "loop" where it scans in a slow circle, adding to the "radar sweep" effect of the sensor sweep. 3-Remove K162s from the system scanner, but not other wormholes, or delay them by some factor. I'm not a huge fan of this but it solves the problem. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13408
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 02:01:00 -
[774] - Quote
Fozzie, about the fact that you're trying to balance something here. Forget the specifics of the change, the real problem is the code responsible for wormholes. it must be pretty unwieldy if applying just one change involves enough dev time that you are able to say with certainty it will not, couldn't possibly be launched until after summer.
What will you do the next time you want to balance something in here?
Can you re-purpose cyno code to replace the existing wormhole code? they're system connections, after all. start with a cyno, and alter it one attribute at a time until you have a modular thing that looks and functions as a K162. do it again for a M273. again for a E175... and on until wormholes are individual things that you can work with.
want K162s invisible initially? too easy, they're covert cynos at heart.
tbqh i think it's a brilliant solution, you're welcome.
if I've suggested something that would work, being awesome is what I do... sometimes. if I'm wrong and wormhole code is enough of a spaghetti mess that it will always be clunky, I'm sorry and I expect you will be forced to nerf wormhole ISK in the future (since playing with the code is impractical).
about the delay... I think it's very optimistic of you to expect most players will make use of it. I think the kind of impact you're trying to make using this strategy of denying intel would require that K162 are simply not probe-able, and locating one would mean probe scanning something on grid with it.
yes, i'm serious, wormholes are supposed to be different and scary, correct?
and yeah, if someone warps away from this version of a K162 without making a bookmark, they've caused themselves a problem.
I just don't see 2, 5, 10 minutes making a difference. if you think it's a good idea to provide players with a new opening move (the choice of ship they decide to put through the hole, rather than entering warp to a virgin wormhole--often unknowningly)... why not be consistent about it and extend it to roamers?
what's beautiful about this scenario is you've balanced these ships for years; cloaky, not cloaky, big, small... they have the option to use the wormhole sneaky-like, or trade the intel benefit in scaled increments of big, heavy, in-the-face dps.
furthermore, if you're trying to drive conflict and make changes that matter, make the head of wormholes default-warpable. ie straight from overview. (I think wormholes could move closer to the concept of gates, and should/could be disassociated from signatures altogether)
it's fair; now that the tail of the hole is worth preserving, make the head easier to assault.
as it is, probing is a time sink in wormholes, and wormhole PVP. you know, the not-ISK side of the equation.
I think it's pretty significant that you're willing to preserve the ISK part. after all, throttling NPC buy orders would be the easier way to do this, so I take it you have your reasons.
One thing that is suspiciously absent from this thread is anyone thanking you for not nerfing the ISK. I'll break the ice: in exchange for not touching that part of the equation, I'm willing to see wormholes get pretty damn scary. President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13408
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 02:32:00 -
[775] - Quote
the conspiracy theorist Rain wonders if this whole thing is contrived, and you've planted it to serve as a reason for making some very unpleasant changes in the future.
...I also think it's possible that you are trolling. President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's
146
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 05:37:00 -
[776] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: that's a popular sentiment, that things should have a counter, and it's also a very rock-paper-scissors view of things. Instead of asking "what's the counter?" and expecting that one exists, a more flexible approach would be to ask "what's the most effective response?" ...and in the case of wormholes, considering the ISK bait that is placed in them, and the absence of local intel, I think they have always been a clear, simple case of CCP asking if you would fancy a multi-billion ISK game of Marco Polo.
This is very posh verbalization however it doesn't actually say anything at all.
There is such a thing as using too many methaphors. The Nexus 7's
What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13422
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 14:52:00 -
[777] - Quote
"things aren't always perfect, and I think when it comes to wormholes, CCP expects you to get it in the ass"
kid gloves, though. for special snowflakes who think things should have counters President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
497
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:25:00 -
[778] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: those rocks were never meant to fit through the openings of the system, and I imagine CCP would like for there to be as much loss in wormholes as there is ISK, and then some. I'm pretty sure that's what this change is about.
CCP is smarter than that. They may have made a bunch of really stupid decisions in the past but they are bright enough not to look at the most dangerous area, hardest to access, hardest logistics area of space and go "Hm, let's make it so that people lose more money than they are likely to make in this space" |
AssassinationsdoneWrong
The Nexus 7's
148
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:39:00 -
[779] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:"those rocks were never meant to fit through the openings of the system,
Also.... science fiction game The Nexus 7's
What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity |
Rain6637
Team Evil
13422
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:39:00 -
[780] - Quote
you know what i'm saying, though. the concept is the same. whether you're a miner or working the combat sites, in those moments you are the monkey
Anhenka wrote:Rain6637 wrote: those rocks were never meant to fit through the openings of the system, and I imagine CCP would like for there to be as much loss in wormholes as there is ISK, and then some. I'm pretty sure that's what this change is about.
CCP is smarter than that. They may have made a bunch of really stupid decisions in the past but they are bright enough not to look at the most dangerous area, hardest to access, hardest logistics area of space and go "Hm, let's make it so that people lose more money than they are likely to make in this space"
actually, I... believe the exact opposite, but I don't think it's a matter of intelligence. President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
|
Jack Miton
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
3205
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 20:26:00 -
[781] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Rain6637 wrote: those rocks were never meant to fit through the openings of the system, and I imagine CCP would like for there to be as much loss in wormholes as there is ISK, and then some. I'm pretty sure that's what this change is about.
CCP is smarter than that. They may have made a bunch of really stupid decisions in the past but they are bright enough not to look at the most dangerous area, hardest to access, hardest logistics area of space and go "Hm, let's make it so that people lose more money than they are likely to make in this space" historically, there's very little to support this view. sadly. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1226
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 14:55:00 -
[782] - Quote
quick point,
It seems strange to me that d-scan allows me to see on sensors anything within 14.3 AU of my ship, yet when entering a system my survey scanner picks up all anomalies regardless of distance. A neat compromise on this issue may be have it set so that you can only see anomalies/wormholes on your survey scanner at the range of whatever d-scan criteria you've set to a maximum of 14.3 AU.
This would mean that on entering a wormhole system you wouldn't have full knowledge of everything that is out there in terms of anomalies as you could only see what is relatively near to you to a maximum of 14.3 au. Likewise defenders would have to do regular patrols around the system to build a map of where the anomalies are and check them out for intruders which may involve some prove scanning work and so on.
I wouldn't mind seeing this in empire space to, it might return some of the buzz of exploration I used to feel back when I started and had to warp around the place to detect complexes prior to odyssey.
I don't live in wormhole space and havent spent that much time there so forgive me if I am barking up the wrong tree here. I just had an idea and thought it might be worth sharing it. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
33
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 22:57:00 -
[783] - Quote
Even though i enjoy the controlled "safety" of the current situation, i don't mind this change. But as other people noted, please don't make it too easy for the invaders to catch everything. IMO only the appropriately prepared hunting fleet should be able to take advantage of this change.
a couple of thoughts of how it would work nicely: -A timer after the wh spawn for the K162 to appear -If a second (maybe third?) ship initiates warp to the WH (not jump) make the K162 sig immediately visible
With the second measure the hunters would have to make their tackling/scouting ships "matter" and be appropriately prepared to grab and hold until their fleet arrives, instead of just providing a warp-in with plenty of time for the whole fleet to jump through.
If i repeated someone else's idea my apologies, i didn't go through all 38 pages. Just my 0.02$
-Gio |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 05:22:00 -
[784] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Rain6637 wrote: those rocks were never meant to fit through the openings of the system, and I imagine CCP would like for there to be as much loss in wormholes as there is ISK, and then some. I'm pretty sure that's what this change is about.
CCP is smarter than that. They may have made a bunch of really stupid decisions in the past but they are bright enough not to look at the most dangerous area, hardest to access, hardest logistics area of space and go "Hm, let's make it so that people lose more money than they are likely to make in this space"
C1's and C2's are already there buddy, especially C2's since they require minimum 50 - 70 mil BC hull to farm. If you get unlucky with the nanoribbon drops and your fleet takes losses to ganks, you'll lose more money than you make.
Even if you didn't take losses you'd be better off spamming risk-free L4's in highsec. Better isk/hr/effort and no need to put up a staging POS. Or you can get on the bandwagon and "farm" (gank) other site runners, since it would seem that sooner or later they'll never see you coming |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
111
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 07:05:00 -
[785] - Quote
First i want to preface that i believe that Effort and Experience should play a pivotal role in threat/force projection AND Risk mitigation.
That being said, I believe that there is no room for brick walls (such as a blind fold timer) that will undermine these ideas. The problem that the Sensor Overlay revamp caused a balance shift in the favor of risk mitigation was merely an oversight. There definitely should be care to not attempt a fix with a polar shift in the favor of threat/force projection.
There seems to be a history of polar shift nerfs and buffs that turn the game upside down. Examples: Nos nerf - went from OP to nOPe then rebalanced eventually to usable standards Drake nerf - went from most used to most ridiculed ship Rifter - T1 frig buff pass nerfed the rifter's comparative viability Drone Poo Nerf - Quite literally a nerf that turned the game upside down. Drone Regions went from the most to the least valuable space.
CCP Fozzie wrote: The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
What you could do of course is reverse the damage done by the Sensor Overlay by a significant amount. I would suggest that K162 signatures not even show up on the Overlay until 25 to 50% of their lifetime has elapsed.
Now on the other hand, diligence should be rewarded, even if it is not in full. By that i mean, allow the signature to be detected by probes immediately upon spawn. However the scan difficulty should be great enough that it is not immediately locatable but the scan difficulty decreases constantly over the life of the wormhole and the transfer of mass.
This would, first of all, allow diligent players to have a hand in their own risk management by knowing an exit wormhole exists. However it still allows the uncertainty and danger that you want to add to the WH environment by not allowing them to find or explore it immediately.
Does this hit all bases? |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
50
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 17:36:00 -
[786] - Quote
Oska Rus wrote:And admit it that we all are in wormholes because of sleeper loot. Ofc. From what I heard over the years, sleeper loot has tanked mostly due to reduced T3 demand but also increased nanoribbon supply. With so many WH empty of active occupants, I would guess the day-trippers or suitcase-orca-alt players is the cause. Benefits of living out of a pos may need some love.
|
Swirler
DELAINEN SYNDICATE
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 17:46:00 -
[787] - Quote
You want to shake up things in wormholes?
How about you make them better, not worse.
You stole planetary mining from players; first advertising it as a way for individual players to have a chance to match the isk power of players that had control of the few moons in the game, then you took the PI away from us by integrating it into alliance sovereignty warfare, their tax system, and then enslaved the prices to CCPs arbitrary base prices. PI was another good idea for players, but like the rest, washed away by CCP greed.
Wormhole life is a *****, its hard enough to get sufficient people to live in a dark cave lit only by the match of probes, now you want to cut a hole in the wall, and let the boogie men in while allowing them to do it with out making a sound. For what purpose?
To shake things up? Just be honest, you want to shake wormhole denizens out, or at least shake the isk out of their wallets, because they are getting far too rich in there.
Your own ignorance of wormhole action speaks volumes of how CCP is only after the wallet.
The time and dedication that WH residents put into making all that isk, the hugely expensive assets that have to be brought to bare in C5s to finish sites, and the extremely long training times they have to endure to be able to do that, is challenge enough, not to mention being cut off from the rest of the dynamic events in eve, and normal logistical life lines. It's a hard choice to make to live in a WH and commit to what it requires to be successful.
Ask the wormhole players if they want to be ganked in WHs w/o any warning at all, we all say no.
Wormholes have been in the game for years, yet the technology has stagnated, nothing new have you introduced to actually help the players that have followed this hard road of eve-life.
CCP, come up with some ideas to help WH players, instead of hurt them. We have enough hurt coming from player enemies as it is.
Introduce some new tech to eve, some new weapons, to generate some new tactics. The game is really stale with the lack of change.
CCP IDEA - DISAPPROVED. |
Fox Troy
U.R.A.L. M.I.F
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 17:00:00 -
[788] - Quote
CCP are you serious? There is enough dangers in WH. The idea to make delay at detecting k162 it's discrimination of WH-players, you don't let them any chance to save themself. You think that there is not enough pvp in WH? You are wrong. I can't say from all, but i say from me and my corp - we will quit from WH. And as 5-year WH-player i say that i don't want to play a game where i can't do that i want.
If CCP think that it's to easy to play if we see k162 when it appears then let back mechanics of probe-detecting.
CCP IDEA - DISAPPROVED.
Excuse me by my english. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
79
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 18:40:00 -
[789] - Quote
Fox Troy wrote:CCP are you serious? There is enough dangers in WH. The idea to make delay at detecting k162 it's discrimination of WH-players, you don't let them any chance to save themself. You think that there is not enough pvp in WH? You are wrong. I can't say from all, but i say from me and my corp - we will quit from WH. And as 5-year WH-player i say that i don't want to play a game where i can't do that i want.
If CCP think that it's to easy to play if we see k162 when it appears then let back mechanics of probe-detecting.
CCP IDEA - DISAPPROVED.
Excuse me by my english.
The last ship you lost in W-space was 4 months ago, yea WH to scary to much PVP. In fact and you say you have lived in WH's 5 years. you have lost 21 ships
Most of those losses are PVE drakes non worth over 100mill, the most expensive loss you have in 5 years is a 600mill orca, i estimate you have lost no more than 1.3bill in PVP losses. Care to let us know how much isk you have made during the same period.
I can make in ISK SOLO 1.3bill in 2 days, and your looses stretch over 5 years. WH very scary and so in favor of PVP CCP please fix we loosing to much isk!! |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
1416
|
Posted - 2014.04.08 12:48:00 -
[790] - Quote
Or maybe pre Odyssey he kept probes out and kept and eye on incoming sigs, hence limiting his losses. You know, working for intel and the such, which is how it should be.
Also, this changes more than the just pve now. With this change, I could effectively seed caps in someones system. and the wormhole would never show up for the targets, because I've killed it jumping in 3 dreads.
Basically, I am not understanding the philosophy of "lets fix what's not broken" that happened with Odyssey. Put it all back how it used to be, which rewarded players with initiative and doomed the lazy. No trolling please |
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
639
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 18:02:00 -
[791] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Fox Troy wrote:CCP are you serious? There is enough dangers in WH. The idea to make delay at detecting k162 it's discrimination of WH-players, you don't let them any chance to save themself. You think that there is not enough pvp in WH? You are wrong. I can't say from all, but i say from me and my corp - we will quit from WH. And as 5-year WH-player i say that i don't want to play a game where i can't do that i want.
If CCP think that it's to easy to play if we see k162 when it appears then let back mechanics of probe-detecting.
CCP IDEA - DISAPPROVED.
Excuse me by my english. The last ship you lost in W-space was 4 months ago, yea WH to scary to much PVP. In fact and you say you have lived in WH's 5 years. you have lost 21 ships Most of those losses are PVE drakes non worth over 100mill, the most expensive loss you have in 5 years is a 600mill orca, i estimate you have lost no more than 1.3bill in PVP losses. Care to let us know how much isk you have made during the same period. I can make in ISK SOLO 1.3bill in 2 days, and your looses stretch over 5 years. WH very scary and so in favor of PVP CCP please fix we loosing to much isk!!
Mind some people are just cautious and/or PVP more on alts than their original mains (not that I've been that active over the last year or so but for instance 90% of my recent PVP is on another character).
|
Pook600
Defiance LLC
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 19:52:00 -
[792] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:So far it's roughly falling out as follows:
If you normally roam / roll holes in a 20+ t3 fleet then you are for it. If you don't normally roam / roll holes in a 20+ t3 fleet then you are against it.
If you have a 20 man plexing fleet you are for it. If you don't have a 20 man plexing fleet you are against it.
So Fozzie, I guess it's about wether you are pro big corp/alliance or pro small guys eeking out a living in wh space.
Feel free to let us know where you stand.
Nailed it..... |
Kynric
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
67
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 21:19:00 -
[793] - Quote
Pook600 wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:So far it's roughly falling out as follows:
If you normally roam / roll holes in a 20+ t3 fleet then you are for it. If you don't normally roam / roll holes in a 20+ t3 fleet then you are against it.
If you have a 20 man plexing fleet you are for it. If you don't have a 20 man plexing fleet you are against it.
So Fozzie, I guess it's about wether you are pro big corp/alliance or pro small guys eeking out a living in wh space.
Feel free to let us know where you stand.
Nailed it..... Wrong on both counts from Sky Syndicates point of view. We roll in 20+ man t3 fleets and mostly can't be troubled to kill sleepers yet we are against hiding k162s from probes.
A return to the pre - odyssey onboard scanner would be welcome. |
BlknTan
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:02:00 -
[794] - Quote
Don't make this change, it caters purely to players in higher class wormholes. I love rage rolling my holes with the best of them looking for targets, but this would be stupid OP for the aggressors. |
dragko
The Devil's Rejected Beacon Light Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:13:00 -
[795] - Quote
Clearly C5 and C6 would love to have an easier time with logistics and I completely understand that. But seriously you want to live in big man space live in big man space. If I am actively scanning in system there should be no impedance on my ability to detect what is clearly there. |
bad acidtrip
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 02:25:00 -
[796] - Quote
CCP IDEA - DISAPPROVED.
shouldnt made scaning so easy. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1270
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 22:17:00 -
[797] - Quote
bad acidtrip wrote:CCP IDEA - DISAPPROVED.
shouldn't of made scanning so easy.
Spot on. Exploration on easy mode is the source of the problem. It's not even challenging for noobs and the sense of discovery is gone.
fix exploration and the wormhole problem will fix itself. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
374
|
Posted - 2014.04.14 17:11:00 -
[798] - Quote
This wouldn't make ganking much easier for small systems since there's still the delay on cloak after jumpcloak. In larger systems on the other hand...
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
|
Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
173
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 02:35:00 -
[799] - Quote
The interesting thing about the history of WHs is that any change to eve, any change at all that has even the slightest, tiniest effect on wormholes tends to makes WH space worse.
It's a case of anything that CCP touches, makes WH space worse. Even if they dont mean to change WH space in any way, it still effects WH space in a negative way. Every suggestion for making WH space better doesn't involve anything new at all, merely UNDOING changes CCP has already made. That speaks volumes.
Now CCP wants to actively, DIRECTLY make changes to WH space.
Yea how about we start small CCP and prove that you can make changes to WH space without making it worse.
And yes, WH peeps might seem like they have no respect for CCP and seem a tad hostile and prone to rejecting many changes but that's merely because they are a product of the harshest and most difficult (esp form a logistics pov) space to live in. Also suffering from all those unintended changes and being ignored breeds a level of contempt.
Now you can either leave them alone or put on your big boy pants and do something that will benefit ALL of WH space. I figure you really only have one good shot at this so make it a good one 'k. |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
79
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 09:22:00 -
[800] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:a product of the harshest and most difficult (esp form a logistics pov) space to live in.
That's the argument you fail to properly consider, WH space is currently risk free if you have the slightest idea how to run your operation. And even the null blocks have worked out how to operate in complete safety.
That is what is fulling the purposed changes. WH space is less risk than null sec with twice the isk rewards.
|
|
Anize Oramara
S T R A T C O M Critical-Mass
174
|
Posted - 2014.04.20 05:43:00 -
[801] - Quote
MadbaM wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:a product of the harshest and most difficult (esp form a logistics pov) space to live in. That's the argument you fail to properly consider, WH space is currently risk free if you have the slightest idea how to run your operation. And even the null blocks have worked out how to operate in complete safety. That is what is fueling the purposed changes. WH space is less risk than null sec with twice the isk rewards. All those evictions where people lose hundreds of billion isk or all those escalation fleets lost are a figments of our imagination?
Also don't even start on logistics comparison with null with titan bridges and jump freighters right on top of stations etc. etc.
Null is EASY to live in even if a lot of ships are lost there, WH space is HARD to live in so not a lot of people live there meaning there isn't the same huge fleet fights you find in null.
CCP needs to make it better (not necessarily easier) to live in WH space, this will increase ACTIVITY meaning more pew pew. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1300
|
Posted - 2014.04.20 09:40:00 -
[802] - Quote
Have it that star gates scan systems relaying the signature information to on board survey scanners/computers etc. There are no gates in wormholes so no signatures will automatically appear on the survey scanner. Thus wormholes well be places where there's no free data on k162s or any other sigs.
Effectively this puts wormholes back where they were prior to oddysey and can easily be supported by the lore etc. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Andre Coeurl
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
25
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 02:09:00 -
[803] - Quote
As a long time Wh-space resident I consider this proposal not carefully thought out, both on the grounds of logics (if a signature is there, it must be scannable the moment it's there) and on the ground of balance (giving another advantage to the group rolling the Wh doesn't make any sense).
The logics are obvious, and ignoring it makes no sense but on grounds of the current signature check being "too easy". Anyway, better solutions for this problem are abundant and pretty easy too... just turn scanning again into an activity which needs some preparation, as it used to be when signatures would only appear with scan probes, so it may be done by making it mandatory to have a specific module fitted on the ship, it may be connected to skills, it may even be done by using active probes again (no shame recognizing a change needs to be rolled back).
Regarding balance, well, it's obvious to anyone with Wh experience too... Whenever a group of players is rolling a Wh they're ready for PVP, while the people on the other side of the incoming WH may be doing a number of other things, which very often is PVE since, guess what, even people living in WH space need to earn their pay, so the group cycling has the surprise factor on their side already. On top of that, in C5 and C6 class systems doing PVE means having multiple capitals locked at sites in triage-siege mode, so add a prefect "sitting duck" factor for maximum gank fun. Is there any other place in Eve where PVE is more committing than this? I can't think of any. Do attackers really need more than that? I doubt they can earnestly say so.
I ask to the people defending this potential change, because they may seriously hope they'll have more kills out of it and not just because it's a ganker's wet dream, if they have considered how very few of their potential targets would decide to just roll over and stay in WH space to hand out those kills to them :) While PVP groups keep telling everyone how C5 and C6 systems aren't giving them enough fights, if this change is ever going live they'll have even fewer as no small groups in their right mind will keep living in high level systems... I would only stay if I have a 40-men fleet active when doing PVE. In this scenario people who cycle their statics will just punch into empty systems 9 times out of 10, and when they'll find somebody it will be an alt corp doing PI and gas mining... how interesting Wh life will become then! |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
55
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 08:51:00 -
[804] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:The interesting thing about the history of WHs is that any change to eve, any change at all that has even the slightest, tiniest effect on wormholes tends to makes WH space worse.
It's a case of anything that CCP touches, makes WH space worse. Even if they dont mean to change WH space in any way, it still effects WH space in a negative way. Every suggestion for making WH space better doesn't involve anything new at all, merely UNDOING changes CCP has already made. That speaks volumes.
Now CCP wants to actively, DIRECTLY make changes to WH space.
Yea how about we start small CCP and prove that you can make changes to WH space without making it worse.
And yes, WH peeps might seem like they have no respect for CCP and seem a tad hostile and prone to rejecting many changes but that's merely because they are a product of the harshest and most difficult (esp form a logistics pov) space to live in. Also suffering from all those unintended changes and being ignored breeds a level of contempt.
Now you can either leave them alone or put on your big boy pants and do something that will benefit ALL of WH space. I figure you really only have one good shot at this so make it a good one 'k. True. CCP recently accidentally included the shimmer effect on wormholes when warp is activated to that hole. Upon notification of this 'bug', CCP removed the warp-shimmer effect. Bad move CCP. Watching for activity, whether a warp to a wormhole or looking for a new signature with probes requires time and patience. The most attentive and patient of players are the ones that win, not the opposite. It is called surprise-but*seccs. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
43
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 11:27:00 -
[805] - Quote
Can we get a dev confirmation that this hilariously stupid idea has been scrapped, and the team behind it has been transferred to other duties?
|
mechform
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
74
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 17:02:00 -
[806] - Quote
I like the idea of the k162 not popping up on the overlay right away, but still being scannable. Black Power - Brotha's in space unite! |
Kilorion XII
RATEL Initiative
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 09:36:00 -
[807] - Quote
To start off, I think we all accept that any reward to be gained should carry a relative amount of risk to balance the scales.
The automatic "priming (and updating of) the probe scanner with all the anomalies as well as crude signature results" was introduced with Odyssey "to give neophyte explorers (of all character ages!) a less disjointed pathway into exploration" (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/sensor-overlay-changes-in-eve-odyssey). In wormholes, this automatic priming and updating of the probe scanner had the unintended side effect of swinging the scale in favour of the reward side of the equation.
I believe that to be successful in any endeavour there are three requisites: knowledge/theory, skill to put such knowledge/theory into practice, and dedication. (Knowledge vs. skill: Anyone can read up and relay on how to replace brake pads, but some will swear away their Saturday afternoon whilst trying to get the job done.) The lack of any of these requisites will drastically reduce any chance at success. Such is the case with denying someone the necessary information gathering tool(s) to detect a potential threat in order to survive. Spamming combat probes or the directional scanner to detect potential threats in the form of ships only, simply does not provide adequate warning in an environment where cloaky tacklers are the norm. The delayed appearance proposal is an attempt to rectify the imbalance in wormholes that was created by Odyssey, but would undeniably be a heavy handed overcorrection that slams the scale down in favour of the risk side of the equation.
Before Odyssey, the only option to detecting new signatures in a timely fashion was by religiously scanning with probes. This required the dedication needed to even the scale between risk and reward.
So how do we balance the scale again whilst giving "neophyte explorers (of all character ages!) a less disjointed pathway into exploration"?
My first proposal is simple. All new signatures remain immediately scanable with probes, but there are no automatic "priming (and updating of) the probe scanner with ... crude signature results" in wormholes. "neophyte explorers" only get hints in k-space, not in w-space.
My second proposal is that all new signatures remain immediately scanable with probes, but that the automatic "priming (and updating of) the probe scanner with ... crude signature results" is to be done for everyone in the system only once someone scanned down these signatures. To promote the scanning down of signatures, the first person that scans down a signature may be awarded a finderGÇÖs fee by concord or some other NPC entity based on the type of signature and system. For background story purposes, the NPC entity then makes the "crude" info available to all in the system. |
Triksterism
Dominion Enterprise Psychosomatic.
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 04:05:00 -
[808] - Quote
This idea seems a bit over thought in my opinion. In a C5/C6 if you are running sites and a sig comes up the aggressing fleet has anywhere from 5 minutes to seconds to find the anom and send a fleet in to engage due to Siege timers. Lower Class wormholes are what they are. You either find an easy target or you find very cautious targets. Either way I don't see this actually changing much for C5/C6 residence for the above stated reason. It really does seem simple to me and no change is really needed. |
Quiby San
9
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 14:48:00 -
[809] - Quote
Sorry, but after reading 40 sites about this topic my position towards this idea did not change. Recent changes that affected wormholes made them already pretty bad, especially for people that don't live in corporations with hundreds of players, owning several high class wormholes.
I disapprove the idea. |
Thegasp Cupcakes
CareBears Gone Dark Pina Colada Armada
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 21:51:00 -
[810] - Quote
I can't support this idea. It gives way too much of an advantage to the aggressor. Wormholes already have the ore sites moved from cosmic sigs making mining nearly impossible, and forget about Exhumers. There's also no way to know who is in local, and for how fast you can recloak from a hole, forces the site runners to spam D-scan the whole time.
As stated by others before me, theres no way to counter that system. The aggressor already has the surprise in most cases.
There are a lot of small wormhole corporations that wouldn't be able to take most fleets that would be interested in attacking them at combat sites. The only option is then to run. If you take away the little warning we'd have, we would be slaughtered time and time again.
EvE has always let you choose your fights. Please keep this aspect.
So No, This would be horrible for the wormhole community. |
|
Sum Olgy
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
62
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 08:42:00 -
[811] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:
the moment the fleet jumped trough wh its already too late for defender
Utter rubbish. Wormholes are the end game of risky things to do in Eve. If you treat running an anom in a wormhole in the same way you'd run a Sanctum/Hub etc in a dead end null sec system you deserve everything you get.
I'm not sure the OP suggestion is the way to go. Trying to increase player interaction with dodgy mechanics sounds like a knee jerk reaction instead of a reasoned progressive addition to gameplay. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
131
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:29:00 -
[812] - Quote
As many others have stated, this idea is not the most optimal solution for the "issue" of signatures appearing automatically on the scanner window.
I also live in WH-space, and have been both in the attacker and the defender roles. I do actively use my D-Scan to check my surroundings, use probes to scan down signatures, etc. Perhaps a ship could enter the system in between my D-Scan sweeps and it would be fair, it's being sneaky as it should. However, not being able to know there's a new connection for some time while the attackers are already coming, without having any other advantage to compensate is not at all fair. I would hate that mechanic, both in the defender and the attacker roles (I'd feel like cheating on the second case).
If the problem is that the Oddyssey scanner inmediatly shows up any sigs without even throwing a probe (which I'll need anyway in order to scan them down), then simply removing that mechanic would be an easy solution.
On the other hand, attackers, defenders and people just looking for PVE benefit from knowing about new signatures in the same way. I would make sure this hasn't changed things much before considering changing anything (some people here have stated they don't feel much of a danger change). |
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
214
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 00:14:00 -
[813] - Quote
is there any update on this? I think one thing we can all agree on was that making K162s at least not show up on the automated scanner forcing probes as a good diea. It brings us back to pre-odyssey which no one can argue was bad.
Of all changes this was the one I was most excited for TBH, and im dissapointed to not here any response. CCP just asked us for our input, and then dead silence. The Wormhole Kid |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
39
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 16:55:00 -
[814] - Quote
Please bear with me while I take a little trip.
And Bob called out and said GǣLoGǪ I shall give them that dwell in this place a new, even darker and more dangerous playground with which to pay homage to me. And those that dwell there shall have riches heaped upon them from on high for their diligence and perseverance in this place, but too they shall have much taken for it will be a frightful existence.Gǥ
And so the stars shimmered and the first brave souls ventured forth into the pits of hell, learning of their six levels and did so pay sacrifices to Bob so that they may be blessed. Some few did survive and even flourish in those first days, bringing back the spoils of war to the rest of mankind that cowered in their ivory towers.
Those spoils of war were truly prized and shaped by the denizens of BobGÇÖs new playground. It was soon discovered that four delectable flavors could be wrought from the materials seized and those in the ivory towers took notice. These three scoop delights were far better than the one and two scoops that the ivory towers produced. In the passing years these better scoops did sate the desires of the ivory towers and brought much wealth to the denizens that toiled in darkness, never sure when they were being watched by the spreaders of chaos who would, in moments, fall upon them from the dark suns that would appear in the sky above.
So the ivory towers bought the wonderful treats and discovered to their joy that the vanilla three scoop could be doused in chocolate for even greater delight. The null-bears lifted their arms upward in homage and sought out more of this great dessert with which to wage their endless wars. The great clamor of their call for more heartened the masses that toiled in darkness and chaos, and numerous brave new fools ventured forth to make their fortunes. Bob rejoiced, for his playground had many denizens and they paid him tribute with their blood and battles. The epic clarion calls, the frantic rush to arms to defend ones new home resounding from the darkness. All the while more materials were gathered.
But nothing remains static in the paradise of New Eden and other gods grew fickle. The chocolate sauce recipe was changed. Suddenly the taste of that once great Vanilla T3, as it had become known, changed into something less palatable. The riches of BobGÇÖs playground were slightly less sought after and yet those that dwelt there had become even better at extracting those riches.
They gathered together in the darkness and lit it with the fiery glow of engines and explosions. What used to take hours now took mere minutes and fortunes could still be made, but only by those bands that were the biggest and the best. Those in the ivory towers still liked their T3 scoops but other new tastes proliferated, tempting them away while in the darkness nothing changed, there were no new treats to bring to market.
We that live the WH life have but one product and on its fickle nature our fortunes rest. We are a one trick pony. If we are to truly make a new name for ourselves and revitalize the place we love then we must diversify. New uses for the material we gather daily must be found. This must be our new clarion call. For with that diversification, our home will once more grow more populated, and with that population will be more chances to pay homage to Bob through the chaos of death and destruction.
We must explore the technology that the sleepers have amassed at their sites; explore their buildings and bring them back to see what marvels are held within. Perhaps deployable manufacturing facilities might be wrought to put the empires to shame. Perhaps the weapons of the sleepers or their engines might be reverse engineered, bringing us new modules and revitalizing our space. We must engage the one power greater than Bob, CCP, and help them understand that we, the capsuleers that live on the edge, need their help to make the place we live in the greatest of the playgrounds of New Eden.
It is not artificial gimmicks that will bring back the days of old but rather opportunity, for with no opportunity there will be no great fortunes to be had beyond what we the large groups eke out. Those fortunes must be had at the expense of time and patience thus giving opportunity to those that seek to spread their chaos.
This is how we bring PVP and PVE together for the greatest experience in gaming.
|
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
58
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 01:49:00 -
[815] - Quote
DetKhord Saisio wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:The interesting thing about the history of WHs is that any change to eve, any change at all that has even the slightest, tiniest effect on wormholes tends to makes WH space worse.
It's a case of anything that CCP touches, makes WH space worse. Even if they dont mean to change WH space in any way, it still effects WH space in a negative way. Every suggestion for making WH space better doesn't involve anything new at all, merely UNDOING changes CCP has already made. That speaks volumes.
Now CCP wants to actively, DIRECTLY make changes to WH space.
Yea how about we start small CCP and prove that you can make changes to WH space without making it worse.
And yes, WH peeps might seem like they have no respect for CCP and seem a tad hostile and prone to rejecting many changes but that's merely because they are a product of the harshest and most difficult (esp form a logistics pov) space to live in. Also suffering from all those unintended changes and being ignored breeds a level of contempt.
Now you can either leave them alone or put on your big boy pants and do something that will benefit ALL of WH space. I figure you really only have one good shot at this so make it a good one 'k. True. CCP recently accidentally included the shimmer effect on wormholes when warp is activated to that hole. Upon notification of this 'bug', CCP removed the warp-shimmer effect. Bad move CCP. Watching for activity, whether a warp to a wormhole or looking for a new signature with probes requires time and patience. The most attentive and patient of players are the ones that win, not the opposite. It is called surprise-but*seccs. Oh darn it, ISD Izwal will now lock this thread because I used the word bug (Rule # 15). |
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.12 15:11:00 -
[816] - Quote
ExookiZ wrote:is there any update on this? I think one thing we can all agree on was that making K162s at least not show up on the automated scanner forcing probes as a good diea. It brings us back to pre-odyssey which no one can argue was bad.
Of all changes this was the one I was most excited for TBH, and im dissapointed to not here any response. CCP just asked us for our input, and then dead silence.
I don't agree. However if they wanted to do this I would be willing to compromise. If they want to make sigs not appear on the scanner then I think ore and combat sites should not by 100%. You can still keep the annom pop up on the scanner just not make them IMMEDIATELY warp able to anyone who enters system. That was the trade off CCP gave in the first place when they made ore sites automatically 100% scan strength.. |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
39
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 19:47:00 -
[817] - Quote
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:I don't agree. However if they wanted to do this I would be willing to compromise. If they want to make sigs not appear on the scanner then I think ore and combat sites should not by 100%. You can still keep the annom pop up on the scanner just not make them IMMEDIATELY warp able to anyone who enters system. That was the trade off CCP gave in the first place when they made ore sites automatically 100% scan strength..
Make anomalies to signatures to keep PvE risk balanced...I thought I heard it all in the past weeks. And those are the kind of players CCP listens to. Have fun scanning not just through 20+ sigs in most black holes, but 50 after that. Making ore to gravsites again is something most people would probably agree on, but that has never been on the table by CCP.
|
Ghostnis
Pissed Every Night Including Sundays
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 10:23:00 -
[818] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:Make anomalies to signatures to keep PvE risk balanced...I thought I heard it all in the past weeks. And those are the kind of players CCP listens to. Have fun scanning not just through 20+ sigs in most black holes, but 50 after that. Making ore to gravsites again is something most people would probably agree on, but that has never been on the table by CCP.
Make them as signals, but these two "special" types reveal more to the probes scanner. They immediately show their type, but they still need a bit more scanning to allow to warp to them. Thus no immediate warp is allowed and no extra scanning is needed if you aren't intrested in them ...
|
iLLeLogicaL
The Red Circle Inc.
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 10:34:00 -
[819] - Quote
I'd like to see this implemented before the wh api gets to it's fixed stage (vs the working as intended right now).
I'm not even in the logon trap market but it's silly "design" (seemingly by potatoes), that will make wormhole space carebear paradise. There's soo many wormholes with just 20man farmcorps in them. Atleast bringing back a delayed signature will increase the risk vs reward scale.
Prioritize your decicions CCP. |
iLLeLogicaL
The Red Circle Inc.
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 10:35:00 -
[820] - Quote
Or just removed the odyssey scanner feature in wormholes. |
|
Stronteim Galardis
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 03:31:00 -
[821] - Quote
I haven't read through this entire thread so this idea might have been mentioned. What about randomly picking up false positive probe results, in wormholes, you would have to narrow the scan to see that it was a false reading. It would require at least one or 2 more probe scans before it is revealed to be a false result, and would occur often enough that people would get tired of hiding out every time a SIG shows up on a probe scan. |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.17 00:42:00 -
[822] - Quote
This thread is old! and I am catching up ..... there are two already existing posts that I am 100% on board with
If the idea as presented is maintained, it should also be applied to other dangerous space like null sec as posted here
Slumber wrote:If this is going to be implemented then it should be the same the other way also and have a delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec. I believe it will enhance the options for seeding capitals as stated earlier in the thread.
Now, it is obvious that the cartels will fight this all the way so if this is not doable, this other post is my second best choice.
[Phoenix Jones wrote:If your heart is set on this though.. here is how you implement it.
1) The scanner can or cannot go back to the original way, that's up to you. 2) If you want to do this delayed wormhole spawn move, give the players the method of making the wormhole themselves, and make it a deployable that generates wormholes (Yes I know people hate the idea, but you can restrict it in a few ways.
a) Only allow the deployable to work in wormhole space, and the generated wormhole connects to another wormhole (no kspace connections through the generated hole, and this cannot be dropped in kspace to generate wormholes).
b) limit the mass and the jump amount. A meta 1 generator allows only cruiser and below, and has a maximum of 10 to 12 jumps (meaning it can be jumped 12 times total, regardless of mass of ship that jumped it). A meta 2 generator allows battlecruisers and below, and has a maximum of 15 jumps. A meta 3, battleships and 20 jumps. Meta 1's connect to c1 and c2 wormholes, meta 2 connect to c3 and c4 wormholes, meta 3 connect to c5 and c6 wormholes (you can't choose the wormhole type directly, it is random). Note: C1's regardless of the deployable, still has its mass limit (no battleships or above even if it was a meta 3 generator, can pass through the hole).
c) The generator cloaks itself, the wormhole and about 10k surrounding itself (Functions exactly like a mobile scan inhibitor, except it cloaks itself also). This cloak lasts from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. The decay on the wormhole lasts roughly 6 hours to 24 hours (can be balanced as need be).
This does a few things. It allows players an alternate to rolling holes. It Gives them their "gank" chance, it allows people to do intel before being discovered (your 10 to 30 minute window), and it does not f-up the original k162 concepts. In addition, it allows small gangs to function as small gangs as the wormhole itself has a jump limit not based off of mass, but amount of times jumped (So you can bring a gang of 5 people, drop one, jump in, find a target or not, warp farther into his system, drop a second, jump it, and you have a small highway going, and the potential for an actual "roam". After the 10 to 30 minutes, other people can find them, use its highway (even possibly close it behind you), and come after you. You left a "TRAIL" for people to track you.
This addresses this whole new concept by use of a deployable. The farmers are not immune anymore, but they are not totally helpless as there is only so many ships the corp can jump into the system (they can jump enough to return, or commit a large fleet and trap themselves there, and possibly probe themselves out later).
I don't know if this would cause more fights or not, but it would give the hunters a bit of a method to actually "hunt". In other-words, give the player a new method in wormhole space. |
Sarah Flinnley
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 19:48:00 -
[823] - Quote
I'm still a fan of both immediately spawning both ends of the WH connection when the WH first appears and starting the decay timer at that time.
Reason: If the new sig in system doesn't indicate that a player is warping to the other end of the WH, then the new sig popping up in system doesn't give any intel.
NOTE: This also makes it impossible for anyone to 'close' their wormhole as is currently possible, but I believe unintended. |
Destoth La'Rakian
Anoikis Vergence Critically Unstable
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 14:01:00 -
[824] - Quote
Wtf really lets think about this for one sec what is a wh? It's a distortion in real space of large proportion so to say that your inboard scanner shouldn't be able to see that is kinda dumb actually it's fing stupid but ok I'll give you that but then to say that not even probes can find it until a undetermined amount of time is an epic fail, I can't understand why ccp would even think about this it violates common since and scan mechs,as well as any realism.I find it frustrating it seems to me that ccp should try an fix null sec if there worried about site farming an far play an wanna make eve more dangerous what's safe an more bear then having a blue blob of 40k members bot ratting null with 0 risk no random spawns no system events nothing at all exempt a free pass from ccp it's the larges space in eve an it's broken to **** an has been for years.But in the end I know that fixin null is taboo to ccp an everyone else is open season,In the end I'm a WHer so bring it on ccp we will adapt that's what wh is all about
Concord ain't Coming......
|
Destoth La'Rakian
Anoikis Vergence Critically Unstable
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 14:30:00 -
[825] - Quote
Saisin wrote:This thread is old! and I am catching up ..... there are two already existing posts that I am 100% on board with
If the idea as presented is maintained, it should also be applied to other dangerous space like null sec as posted here
[quote=Slumber]If this is going to be implemented then it should be the same the other way also and have a delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec. I believe it will enhance the options for seeding capitals as stated earlier in the thread.
Now, it is obvious that the cartels will fight this all the way so if this is not doable, this is a great idea I'd do away with local in null totally because concord an ded keeps track in highsec but null is suppose to be lawless so fix that ccp that's a project we would get behind ,but then your bear toons would be in danger while they were getting there moon milk facials
|
Lord Nyaxx
Les Jihad Joe Quebec United Legions
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 22:57:00 -
[826] - Quote
Quincy Thibaud wrote:This is good. I approve.
While you're at it, how about making ships that enter a null or low sec system from a WH in that system have a delayed appearance in local?
Absolutely and criminals should have a chance to warp and cause mayhem in HS too (imho ).
But the delayed appearance in LS and especially in NS should be the way. Maybe even untill a gate is passed or ship comes under a certain number of AU from any gates and/or sov structures (or from a NEW unheard of yet mobile structures, only available in NS? While as for LS it could be centered on the gates and stations? (e.g.: you entered LS system from WH and don't appear in local unless you decloak and are at less then 5 AUs from any gates and/or stations. / you enter NS from WH and this particular system doesn't have the sov or mobile structure to "scan" spaceship activities and until you warp on grid of a gate or station, you are "invisible" in local but if said system as the particular module to "scan" for ship, you appear in local either immediately or at the same time your jump in cloak timer wears off.) This would not only create another module one can produce and trade but also greatly improove WH traffic as NS alliances would try to use this at their advantages; getting ganked by WH corps while trying to gank their NS ennemies.
Also, as someone stipulate, maybe the K162 signals should be invisible from the passive scan but be scanable from the begining wit probes, why it wouldn't show on your probes if they are scanning I can't see the logic. Heck, I would much rater have it that NO signals appears without probes, unless maybe the anomalies?
Definitively would improve PVP and render PI fetching a little bit more interresting |
Catalytic morphisis
Rock Huggers Inc The Pears of Anguish
9
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 04:49:00 -
[827] - Quote
Best thing that could be done for this is to remove the overlay completely and go back to only being able to detect a signature through probe scanning, the ideas being proposed here are way to advantageous for any Ganking group, Cloaky T3 gangs would have an absolute ball with the side of WH Dwellers with no countermeasure (Aside from constantly being ready for a gank with a fleet) which as mentioned before, Is just not possible for many smaller WH Corps |
Destoth La'Rakian
Anoikis Vergence Critically Unstable
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.31 01:11:00 -
[828] - Quote
^that would work as well but most ppl might see it as to dramatic |
Klatu Satori
Shadows of the Black
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 13:49:00 -
[829] - Quote
I don't like this change because it doesn't get to the core of the problem. It's a patch up job that will have unintended consequences, and probably create more problems than it solves. Instead:
* make K162 wormholes spawn at the same time as the entrance wormhole - this is both logical and fair; * remove the Sensor Overlay instant updates from the game - free intelligence is bad, especially in w-space; * make Ore Sites require scanner probes - this gives miners a level of security which means more miners will be willing to risk w-space mining, which in turn means more targets for hunters. |
FuryX1013
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION ORPHANS OF EVE
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.07 22:54:00 -
[830] - Quote
While I like some of the idea's as someone that has lived in wormhole's since late 2009.
I must disagree with the proposed fix.
What is needed is to put things back the way they were pre- Odyssey.
The overlay while it is pretty. It causes more problems than it solves in wh space.
So to be clear while you can leave the overlay in for the Cosmic Anomaly. Grav sites in holes should be made Cosmic Signature's again that require probes.
As for Cosmic Signatures they will require probes to be detected and the automatic overlay should not detect them.
My proposal should only apply to the overlay in wh space only. It should be left alone in the rest of EvE space. |
|
Catalytic morphisis
Rock Huggers Inc The Pears of Anguish
18
|
Posted - 2014.06.08 20:53:00 -
[831] - Quote
FuryX1013 wrote:While I like some of the idea's as someone that has lived in wormhole's since late 2009.
I must disagree with the proposed fix.
What is needed is to put things back the way they were pre- Odyssey.
The overlay while it is pretty. It causes more problems than it solves in wh space.
So to be clear while you can leave the overlay in for the Cosmic Anomaly. Grav sites in holes should be made Cosmic Signature's again that require probes.
As for Cosmic Signatures they will require probes to be detected and the automatic overlay should not detect them.
My proposal should only apply to the overlay in wh space only. It should be left alone in the rest of EvE space.
Agree completely, Pre Overlay was the best! Although I do like it in 0.0 but for WH space it is ridiculous to say the least |
Honourain
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 16:30:00 -
[832] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:This is a rather drastic change to the balance equations and the way wormhole space is navigated, no longer could K162s be reliably expected as methods of travel, system security would become a nightmare, wormhole travel 'direction' would become one way, down the chain.
One suggestion that I think would balance it decently: Make the signature appear when someone warps to the site. This means, if a scout K162s in, they can warp off the wormhole without the wormhole being detected, its when they go back that a signature is generated.
that's a great idea... perhaps to simplify it:
Signature is appears when wormhole is traveled thru IE: in and out |
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters Disturbed Acquaintance
9042
|
Posted - 2014.06.15 18:27:00 -
[833] - Quote
as a wormhole resident...i've been following this thread for awhile. and am becoming increasingly worried that any/all of these clearly terrible ideas will become reality. |
Adri Kinsan
Triakis Industries
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 11:10:00 -
[834] - Quote
The overlay doesn't make sense in wormhole space.
In K-Space, you've probably got all the random vessels sending a ping out to figure out roughly where a signature is coming from, or at least in high-sec from all the police and structures.
But in W-Space, theres no local, so why should there be a cosmic overlay. I'd honestly rather have the overlay show bookmarks in a wormhole rather than anomalies/signatures, otherwise why would we even need to launch probes if our ships can already detect exactly where the signature is coming from?
I vote for no overlay in Wormhole. Make exploration mean something! |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
497
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 11:24:00 -
[835] - Quote
Can this thread be ended and removed? This idea/concept is dead as it does not address core issues with wormhole space.
Yaay!!!! |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1497
|
Posted - 2014.07.11 22:54:00 -
[836] - Quote
Or simply make it that anoms with zero per cent signatures do not show on the overview, the overlay or anywhere else in the user interface, make it so that scan probing can only uncover them and that they only show up in the probe scanner and overlay at 1% or above.
how can something possibly have a 0% signature when you can see it in the overlay, and know what direction it's in and how far away it is?
Some of these 0 percent anoms you can practically fly up to, only needing probes when you are right on top of them.
Make zero percent undetectable without probes, a simple and easy fix. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Kontract Killa
That Escalated Quickly Nerfed Alliance Go Away
4
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 18:13:00 -
[837] - Quote
I am 100% in favor of delaying new sigs. I would prefer the random timer.
On the topic of sigs, I wish that ore sites went back to having to be probed. |
Snakes-On-A-Plane
8
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 15:28:00 -
[838] - Quote
Going to point out: This is a two edge sword. It can be used for cowardice as easily as combat.
For those who don't do a lot of PVE especially, it's going to remove yet more risk. Though there is little to begin with. So now when I roll a hole, I can decide if I want to fight who's there. If they look to strong, I can have that hole rolled before they even know I was there.
There is already a massive advantage to those who discover their enemy first. This just tips the scales unnecessarily. Now there will be almost no threat to the players in motion.
Additionally, it's going to drive miners completely out of wormhole space. If they aren't already almost completely gone. Which they probably are. I know that the last change of this type (making grav sigs into ore anoms) had the opposite effect from what was intended. Instead of deluging us with tons of fresh and helpless miner kills, it caused the miners to either become ludicrously cautious, or to leave wormhole space altogether. These days I can fly 20 jumps through WH space without seeing a single miner.
GG |
Khin'charin
Heimatar Hull Mining Group
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.26 11:14:00 -
[839] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Or simply make it that anoms with zero per cent signatures do not show on the overview, the overlay or anywhere else in the user interface, make it so that scan probing can only uncover them and that they only show up in the probe scanner and overlay at 1% or above.
how can something possibly have a 0% signature when you can see it in the overlay, and know what direction it's in and how far away it is?
Some of these 0 percent anoms you can practically fly up to, only needing probes when you are right on top of them.
Make zero percent undetectable without probes, a simple and easy fix.
I was going to suggest exactly the same thing, having lived in WH's for just a few days now. The implementation of the sensor overlay and how it's working seems to be what's wrong in the first place.
CCP, when you have dumbed down scanning and probing (finding 'stuff') to the extent that you need to start inventing 'nerfs' to said scanning and probing, I believe you have gone full circle.
With all due respect please go full circle. Just don't go full ****** by implementing even dumber 'features' because of ~reasons~.
Just my 2 isk as a returning pilot from "back then". |
Robert Morningstar
Morningstar Excavations LTD Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
72
|
Posted - 2014.07.27 02:22:00 -
[840] - Quote
if you do this you need to make ore sites sigs again and possibly combat sites also at the very minimum. |
|
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
11
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 21:08:00 -
[841] - Quote
Ridiculous idea, for all the many reasons people have pointed out in these 40+ pages (I had to double check the date of the OP to make sure it wasn't an April Fool's joke). Please, there are enough phony kluges in the game already.
If you really want to make w-space more engaging and dangerous, then simply add new content, such as meaner Sleepers that can hunt you down and attack you anywhere in the system. And make them attack your POS too. :)
And yes, as so many have suggested, get rid of the Sensor Overlay in w-space. And require all sites to be scanned down...it's supposed to be mysterious after all.
Oh, and as a side note, you probably shouldn't allow bidding for industry teams from w-space, as you currently can in Crius. How the heck would the workers find your system? LOL |
TomyLobo
SuVcorp Protection Services
132
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 22:40:00 -
[842] - Quote
Might as well remove d-scan while you are it then make sigs, towers and ships only discoverable by probes. |
Paranoid Lunatic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 15:18:00 -
[843] - Quote
I agree with most, taking the overlay away and make ALL signs have to be scanned down. And you should have to have probes out to find new sigs. |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
65
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 21:24:00 -
[844] - Quote
Ang Min wrote:And require all sites to be scanned down...it's supposed to be mysterious after all.
All the sigs? Maybe a bit excessive ... ore sites is nough |
Zara Arran
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
93
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 18:33:00 -
[845] - Quote
I am not a fan of the delay in sig appearance (imho it shouldnt be there in the first place without effort). I didn't read all the 40+ pages on this topic, so perhaps something similar was already suggested.
Possible solution:
A bit of a middle ground... but would it be possible to have the "detection" of this new WH be done by a POS / TCU/ POCO or some sort of new structure (which takes time to anchor but also can be destroyed)? This structure would then only pass the fast appearance of the sig to dscan of that certain corp/alliance (owner of that structure). Everyone else in the system will have a delayed sig appearance.
This means an investment in time and effort (maybe isk) is required to get intel and it can be destroyed/offlined(?). If it takes time and effort to set it up, people wont just place it in their chain for the hell of it and leaving them behind (esp if they are destroyable and would appear on the KB). Meaning only in your home systems you have that little bit of extra safety. To solve it in a way that K-space have the sig appear for everyone could be done through detection by stargates/stations (like how people in local are detected)
Obviously there are many variations possible and probably variations that would be better then what I propose. I hope they entire sig appearing without effort/scanning will be removed anyway then no middle ground is needed. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1646
|
Posted - 2014.08.03 22:58:00 -
[846] - Quote
delete +1 |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 13:43:00 -
[847] - Quote
It seems to me that CCP does not have a coherent vision for w-space. You need to communicate that better and ask for feedback on your design goals. Implementing a mechanic without communicating your vision will fail almost every time and upset the community. That said, I canGÇÖt wait for your dev block.
Rek Seven wrote:Again i can't speak for anyone else but our corp doesn't need to poach people. Players come to us because we can offer free POS fuel, SRP and the safety in numbers that small corps can't.
IMO wormholes are heading the way of null sec because of CCP design choices. The small groups can't do anything to hurt the big guys significantly, other than taking part in corp theft (which will go once corp roles are fixed) and thus, people will consolidate into just a few massive alliances.
This is exactly what I fear. I signed up for small fights and an environment that allows us to outsmart others. If CCPs vision is to turn this into a numbers game more than it already is I would be very disappointed. But again I would not be forced to speculate about your intentions if you communicated your vision.
Corbexx is awesome at representing the entire w-space community. Listen to him! If something is not on his wish list then chances are this is terrible.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 29 :: [one page] |