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Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
225
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:08:00 -
[271] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:
I'm sorry, I was unaware that opening a new tab and typing the website out was too much to ask for. (I'm not sorry though)
Ok well then I just have to accept that you don't actually want to add anything civil to the conversation.Thank you for your input. But I did, you decided not to look at it because it was not in a format that would enable you to click and get results. I knew exactly what you were getting at and in regards to your point, I agreed Where in my reply to your post do I say otherwise? Bolded, thanks. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |

Serene Repose
1342
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:20:00 -
[272] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:yea. I have noticed the same: miners work better than 'real players'  1. miners 2. manufacturers/researchers/etc... 3. carebears (mission runners) 4. 'gankers' - ego-oriented group
Fixed your list for you. No thanks needed. 
I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
4006
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:27:00 -
[273] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:Bolded, thanks.
That wasnt my reply to your post.
Infact, that was posted quite some time after I responded.
And it doesn't even make sense to say that what you bolded is me disagreeing with your original point.
Please find what you are looking for below;
Ramona McCandless wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:If you guys wanted a clear indication of what makes eve tick, I'd say miners do. Carebear miners at that. If you mean the mechanics of the EvE economy, Id say that partially accurate If you mean what makes players want to log in, Id have to say it cant be the act of mining itself Youd have to define "carebear" more fully though It used to mean pure industrial It seems to mean more the type of player who would like the game to be changed so they need to do less to feel safe these days "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |

Solecist Project's Alt
Wildly Inept Pacifists
128
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:28:00 -
[274] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:March rabbit wrote:yea. I have noticed the same: miners work better than 'real players'  1. miners 2. manufacturers/researchers/etc... 3. carebears (mission runners) 4. 'gankers' - ego-oriented group Fixed your list for you. No thanks needed.  Except that... Hi Tippia! ... the ego group is co.pletely independent of any gamestyle.
You should know, you're not a ganker. |

Cyphel Clearmount
Planet Express Transport
1
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:30:00 -
[275] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Look folks, CCP have set a series of game targets for all the community to reach.
I think it is a really good idea, who cares which bit is being completed the fastest or the slowest, so long as we as a gaming community reach them?
Cooperation?! Good will to other players? Community? That's crazy talk. Clearly there's one morally superior way to reach some arbitrary goals.  |

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
4006
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:44:00 -
[276] - Quote
Cyphel Clearmount wrote: morally superior
I dont know what this means "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |

Cyphel Clearmount
Planet Express Transport
2
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:48:00 -
[277] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Cyphel Clearmount wrote: morally superior I dont know what this means
Then its possible that like many EVE players you might be morally bankrupt.  |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9611
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:49:00 -
[278] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
and now explain how those arbitrary values are in any way balanced or equal.
without them, one group reaching an arbitrary and irrelevant amount before another has 0 meaning and isn't evidence.
One would imagine it's based on an average amount per hour. However, like subscription numbers, CCP has not released these. I think though the point being that not only have carebears pulled other and mined more, but every single other group has also gotten their shite together and done more. Thus far, anyway. You're still assuming that they're meant to be completed at the same rate. It's possible (and in fact it makes sense) that they made the goals for destruction harder, since that's ultimately what they want more of in this game than anything else. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
247
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:49:00 -
[279] - Quote
I'm curious if OP understands what he's trying to say.
For one, the scales that CCP picked were picked by CCP, not by some crazy science.
Second, when miners see this goal, they can easily go and start mining MORE for the goal. It's hard to make PVP happen in the same way. GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9611
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:50:00 -
[280] - Quote
Cyphel Clearmount wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Cyphel Clearmount wrote: morally superior I dont know what this means Then its possible that like many EVE players you might be morally bankrupt.  It's considerably more possible you don't understand what morals are. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
4006
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:53:00 -
[281] - Quote
Cyphel Clearmount wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Cyphel Clearmount wrote: morally superior I dont know what this means Then its possible that like many EVE players you might be morally bankrupt. 
Taking what you say on face value that would suggest then that few have the "morals" you consider so worthwhile.
Moral observance is not objective.
It is highly subjective.
I choose to be good or bad because I have the will to do so
I am not good or bad because I believe I must to fulfil some kind of ethical requirement set by others. "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |

Cyphel Clearmount
Planet Express Transport
2
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:56:00 -
[282] - Quote
Thanks for the lesson in ethics! Learn something new in EVE every day I tells ya. I keep telling people you kids are sharp here. |

Solecist Project's Alt
Wildly Inept Pacifists
128
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Posted - 2014.05.08 18:59:00 -
[283] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Cyphel Clearmount wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Cyphel Clearmount wrote: morally superior I dont know what this means Then its possible that like many EVE players you might be morally bankrupt.  Taking what you say on face value that would suggest then that few have the "morals" you consider so worthwhile. Moral observance is not objective. It is highly subjective. I choose to be good or bad because I have the will to do so I am not good or bad because I believe I must to fulfil some kind of ethical requirement set by others. The difference between people who believe they are good and people who actually are good.
Hypocrites vs Good people.
There are those who need rules, who lack empathy... ... and those who have empathy.
Whoever now thought of the pseudochristians in the US probably understood. |

Director Blackflame
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:03:00 -
[284] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
and now explain how those arbitrary values are in any way balanced or equal.
without them, one group reaching an arbitrary and irrelevant amount before another has 0 meaning and isn't evidence.
One would imagine it's based on an average amount per hour. However, like subscription numbers, CCP has not released these. I think though the point being that not only have carebears pulled other and mined more, but every single other group has also gotten their shite together and done more. Thus far, anyway. You're still assuming that they're meant to be completed at the same rate. It's possible (and in fact it makes sense) that they made the goals for destruction harder, since that's ultimately what they want more of in this game than anything else.
By this logic you would expect bounties to be nearing completion first but theyre in the same boat as isk destroyed. |

Dave Stark
5385
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:06:00 -
[285] - Quote
Director Blackflame wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
and now explain how those arbitrary values are in any way balanced or equal.
without them, one group reaching an arbitrary and irrelevant amount before another has 0 meaning and isn't evidence.
One would imagine it's based on an average amount per hour. However, like subscription numbers, CCP has not released these. I think though the point being that not only have carebears pulled other and mined more, but every single other group has also gotten their shite together and done more. Thus far, anyway. You're still assuming that they're meant to be completed at the same rate. It's possible (and in fact it makes sense) that they made the goals for destruction harder, since that's ultimately what they want more of in this game than anything else. By this logic you would expect bounties to be nearing completion first but theyre in the same boat as isk destroyed.
you're trying to apply logic to arbitrary numbers some one pulled out of their ass so that we could track it to find out if we get +1 gecko or not. |

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
255
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:07:00 -
[286] - Quote
Mined Volume 42.96% of 25.7 bill goal = 11.04072 bill 184,012 man/hours at 60,000 m3 per hour
NPC bounties 29.6% of 7.44 trill goal = 2.20224 trill 220,224 man/hours at 100mil per hour.
My assumptions were: average miner is getting 1,000 m3 per minute (60,000 per hour) and average ratter/missioner getting 100m per hour
Someone correct my maths if I am wrong. That awkward moment at the Gentleman's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |

Director Blackflame
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:13:00 -
[287] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Director Blackflame wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
and now explain how those arbitrary values are in any way balanced or equal.
without them, one group reaching an arbitrary and irrelevant amount before another has 0 meaning and isn't evidence.
One would imagine it's based on an average amount per hour. However, like subscription numbers, CCP has not released these. I think though the point being that not only have carebears pulled other and mined more, but every single other group has also gotten their shite together and done more. Thus far, anyway. You're still assuming that they're meant to be completed at the same rate. It's possible (and in fact it makes sense) that they made the goals for destruction harder, since that's ultimately what they want more of in this game than anything else. By this logic you would expect bounties to be nearing completion first but theyre in the same boat as isk destroyed. you're trying to apply logic to arbitrary numbers some one pulled out of their ass so that we could track it to find out if we get +1 gecko or not.
I doubt ccp just pulled numbers out of their ass seeing as how they have access to how much isk is earned/destroyed on an average day they probably took that number and added a % to it. |

Dave Stark
5385
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:17:00 -
[288] - Quote
Director Blackflame wrote:I doubt ccp just pulled numbers out of their ass seeing as how they have access to how much isk is earned/destroyed on an average day they probably took that number and added a % to it.
i don't. |

Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
248
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:39:00 -
[289] - Quote
Solecist Project's Alt wrote: The difference between people who believe they are good and people who actually are good.
Hypocrites vs Good people.
There are those who need rules, who lack empathy... ... and those who have empathy.
Whoever now thought of the pseudochristians in the US probably understood.
Oddly enough, it tends to be those that need rules are the ones talking about how society needs the rules to help everyone else.
Those that don't need rules, also don't want rules.
GÇ£I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.GÇ¥ - Robert Heinlein
GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |

Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
248
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:40:00 -
[290] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Mined Volume 42.96% of 25.7 bill goal = 11.04072 bill 184,012 man/hours at 60,000 m3 per hour
NPC bounties 29.6% of 7.44 trill goal = 2.20224 trill 220,224 man/hours at 100mil per hour.
My assumptions were: average miner is getting 1,000 m3 per minute (60,000 per hour) and average ratter/missioner getting 100m per hour
Someone correct my maths if I am wrong.
Ratters average clsoer to 60m and below. Mission runners don't make most of their money on bounties, so even if they are making 100m/hr, it's more like 30-40m on bounties. GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
4012
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:45:00 -
[291] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:
Oddly enough, it tends to be those that need rules are the ones talking about how society needs the rules to help everyone else.
Those that don't need rules, also don't want rules.
GÇ£I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.GÇ¥ - Robert Heinlein
Agreed, though Heinlein would really fit into the former rather than latter category, being as how he was a big one for capital punishment and moral exactitude. It did help (certainly in regard to that quote) that Military style justice had rules he very strongly agreed with.
GÇ£The important thing is moral choice. Evil has to exist along with good, in order that moral choice may operate. Life is sustained by the grinding opposition of moral entities.GÇ¥ GÇò Anthony Burgess, A Clockwork Orange
In essence, if there is no one left to choose to be evil, then good has nothing to define itself by and therefore has no power. Within a short space of time the "good" majority have transmuted into an absolute, and anything that deviates is anathema and is destroyed with vigour.
At that point, it has completed its transformation into evil once more. "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
255
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:45:00 -
[292] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:Last Wolf wrote:Mined Volume 42.96% of 25.7 bill goal = 11.04072 bill 184,012 man/hours at 60,000 m3 per hour
NPC bounties 29.6% of 7.44 trill goal = 2.20224 trill 220,224 man/hours at 100mil per hour.
My assumptions were: average miner is getting 1,000 m3 per minute (60,000 per hour) and average ratter/missioner getting 100m per hour
Someone correct my maths if I am wrong. Ratters average clsoer to 60m and below. Mission runners don't make most of their money on bounties, so even if they are making 100m/hr, it's more like 30-40m on bounties.
That would skew the numbers even more in favor of the ratters putting in more effort than miners. That awkward moment at the Gentleman's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |

Dave Stark
5385
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:47:00 -
[293] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Kristalll wrote:Last Wolf wrote:Mined Volume 42.96% of 25.7 bill goal = 11.04072 bill 184,012 man/hours at 60,000 m3 per hour
NPC bounties 29.6% of 7.44 trill goal = 2.20224 trill 220,224 man/hours at 100mil per hour.
My assumptions were: average miner is getting 1,000 m3 per minute (60,000 per hour) and average ratter/missioner getting 100m per hour
Someone correct my maths if I am wrong. Ratters average clsoer to 60m and below. Mission runners don't make most of their money on bounties, so even if they are making 100m/hr, it's more like 30-40m on bounties. That would skew the numbers even more in favor of the ratters putting in more effort than miners. only if the arbitrary numbers that need to be reached have any relation to one another, of which there is 0 evidence. |

Drak Morgan
Bleak Prospects
8
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:48:00 -
[294] - Quote
Bounties make up about 25% to 30% of the missions income. So a L4 that nets 45mil in an hour once you've sold off savage and loot, generally doesn't get bank more than 10mil to 15mil in bounty... doesn't touch that 100mil bounty you assume, or I'd buy a plex every week. L5 are worse because uou can't solo them (or I can't atleast). |

Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2182
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:50:00 -
[295] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Mined Volume 42.96% of 25.7 bill goal = 11.04072 bill 184,012 man/hours at 60,000 m3 per hour
NPC bounties 29.6% of 7.44 trill goal = 2.20224 trill 220,224 man/hours at 100mil per hour.
My assumptions were: average miner is getting 1,000 m3 per minute (60,000 per hour) and average ratter/missioner getting 100m per hour
Someone correct my maths if I am wrong.
average solo miner can pull about 3k+ / minute. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |

Dave Stark
5385
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:54:00 -
[296] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:average solo miner can pull about 3k+ / minute.
yeah no.
a max skilled hulk is pulling in 2629 m3/min, with orca boosts. so your 'average' solo miner isn't pulling in 3k+/min at all. |

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
255
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:55:00 -
[297] - Quote
Do you know how completely trivial it would be to update a "totals" table every time a miner laser cycle ends, an npc bounty is paid out, a job is started/completed or a ship is destroyed?
About 5 lines of code for each of the first 3 events, and maybe 20 or 30 lines of code to calculate the total isk desyroted by the 4th event.
That and the 3 minutes it took to set up a new database table that has the totals. That awkward moment at the Gentleman's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money.... |

Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2182
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 20:02:00 -
[298] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Velicitia wrote:average solo miner can pull about 3k+ / minute. yeah no. a max skilled hulk is pulling in 2629 m3/min, with orca boosts. so your 'average' solo miner isn't pulling in 3k+/min at all.
durrr, looking at the wrong columns 
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
4878
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 20:22:00 -
[299] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Anyway, your post touches on a point I make repeatedly. The game is infested with a kind of aspergian "min/maxer" habit that is interesting to see, but in those who do it, I end up wondering if they are really playing a game or if some kind of OCD is afoot. Maybe Ritalin is involved? I don't know. But imagine what happens if you go into the house of someone with a cleaning compulsion and trash it for the lulz. How do they respond? I've seen the "air" of such a response in local when some of these players get ganked and I have seen gate campers display equal rage when they fail to get their kill. They are the first to state that anyone putting triple stabs on an intie should have their mothers shot, and they do it with such venomous rhetoric that again, like the ISK-aholic in highsec, I wonder what game they are playing.
So... you are saying the knife cuts both ways? Though suggesting that those with OCD or Aspergers are somehow unwelcome isn't a particularly enlightened view in of itself. Are you sure it was rage, and not smack/trolling? Even if it was, all that proves is that there are many people with anger management issues in the pirating community as there are in the mining community.
I never suggested who is unwelcome. I do suggest that, and this is sacred to the "PVP community", that there are people who should consider whether or not they can handle the game, be they carebear or not. That would be a personal matter but clearly there are avenues where such behavioral issues can grow (or "fester" would be a better word) and then when something happens out comes the evil in the forms of raging, meltdowns, etc. Then someone basks or "drinks" the tears and says "well, maybe they have a mental disorder" but totally miss the point that if their victim had a disorder, what does that make them, the one who drove that person over the side? Might as well go "park in handicapped spaces to watch handicapped people make handicapped faces" while we are at it.
But the knife cuts both ways, and I suppose the desire would be to see the ganker rage when he don't get his kill and show the same childish sense of entitlement that is claimed of every carebear. But having done that a few times, even though I did not get killed, it was not an enjoyable experience. Just being around or dealing with someone exhibiting (not necessarily having) mental dysfunction never struck me as entertainment. But maybe I'm just becoming an old hippie or something. Bring back DEEEEP Space! |

March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1468
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 20:28:00 -
[300] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Cyphel Clearmount wrote: morally superior I dont know what this means in cases like this i usually go to dictionary and learn new word or sentence...... The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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