Maybe CCP just set a lower bar for miners, you know.. to compensate for the deficit of chutzpah?

Mine and build during the week. Weekend, tear it all down again.

Posting in a all miners are bads ruining the game thread.

Grrr Gewns etc etc

Blah blah nerf hi sec, nerf lo sec, nerf cloaks nerf local.

I am disappointed in you capsuleers...

yea. I have noticed the same: miners work better than 'real players'

Of course. They've gotten the capabilities of the real players repeatedly nerfed over the years.

It's only proof of one thing. Clearly, mining is too easy. I suggest we add loot spew to the asteroids. The added benefit being that you pretty much cannot bot it, and surely miners would never approve of botting, right?

[broken record mode]
...mining is a valid playstyle, it just has different challenges - mining is a valid...
[/broken record mode]

What challenge? Setting an egg timer to alt tab back from watching Family Guy on Netflix?

Obvious solution is kill more miners.

Ah, you mean what "real players" do when attacking a POS?

Only because something CAN be a valid and engaging gameplay experience, doesn't mean it always actually is...

...and I watch Grey's Anatomy on a seperate screen, thank you very much.

There are very few situations in which killing more miners is not an appropriate response.

So your point is that because structure shooting sucks and no one likes it... that somehow makes mining awesome, acceptable gameplay that isn't a step away from botting?

No, my point is: All forms of gameplay in EVE have dull and uninteresting sides, and if CCP tries to reduce those, I'm all for it... but all folks like you see is: Evil miners are runing my pew pew.

While everything in EVE has *some* boring aspects, mining is the only thing that is nothing but a boring aspect.

Besides, I just bump and gank them because "I'm doing my part" to stop botting.

if you want to do your part to stop bots; report them.

if you want to do your part to stop bots; report them.

...and people still think miners are the reason, CCP is buffing mining...

I let you in on a little secret: We are not, gankers are!

If reporting them worked, we wouldn't have to gank them.

You don't "have" to do anything in a game... you do it because it gives you purpous and the feeling of accomplishment with actually, you know... accomplishing anything... I get it.

Coming from someone defending a profession that consists of actively not playing the game, this run on sentence makes perfect sense.

So you know what the difference is between a miner who is afk, and one who is botting? I sure don't. It's like the Pepsi Challenge.

"9 out of 10 Caldari Navy Antimatter shells can't tell the difference!"

If reporting them worked, we wouldn't have to gank them.

mining needs a complete overhaul to be less terrible and more interesting than it is. a mechanic that rewards thinking, diligence and teamwork instead of going to make toast. i'm convinced mining and missions are responsible for pushing so many newbies away from eve they are so boring

the best part of the mining overhaul, when it comes, will be the rage threads of 'i own 50 isboxer accounts and YOU CANT DO THIS TO ME'

Well, I hope the potential new players, changes like that would attract would counterbalance the multyboxers loosing their additional accounts.

Coming from someone defending a profession that consists of actively not playing the game, this run on sentence makes perfect sense.

i like your logic

yea...

paying subscription, buying ships, buying stuff, selling ore/minerals, competing for ice, providing targets for other people == 'actively not playing the game'

i like your logic

CCP is buffing mining...

Is this what miners actually think?

No, sitting in a belt pressing F1 every half an hour is actively not playing the game. Do try to keep up.

you mean, the same thing people in null do with ishtars?

you mean, the same thing people in null do with ishtars?

also, if you've ever tried to mine in high sec, you'd realise it's closer to about 4 mins, than 30.

Ice mining is a tad higher cycle time than regular mining, you are aware?

i reckon most people'd recognise the need for more entertaining/challenging pve and more than one viable anom

are you aware; they aren't.

hulk, 67 seconds ice cycle time.
mackinaw 50.6 second ice cycle time.
skiff 25.9 second ice cycle time.

ore cycle time 121.8 seconds cycle time.

As long as it's nothing like the hacking minigame...

As long as it's nothing like the hacking minigame...

*facepalm*

Look. Granted, I mis spoke slightly, but what I'm talking about is that you can fill your ore hold on one ice node, while you have to swap occasionally between actual asteroids.

My bad on that.

But Ice mining is:

One F1. Come back half an hour later, warp to station, unload, warp to belt, go back to step 1.

Yay so you're actually playing the game once every 15 minutes instead of half an hour.

Changes everything, now it's a shining example of engaging gameplay.

You're kidding, right? The hacking minigame is what they should be using as a baseline, you actually have to pay some damned attention. And doing it in lower security areas is awesome, since you have to watch D-scan all the while.

So, I realized that I judged the time based on my own skills, to fly a bait Procurer. I hadn't realized that anyone could actually train up all those ice mining skills without going insane from boredom.

I don't particularly have an issue with PI. Or with research, or any of that other stuff. Mostly because they aren't in open space while they do it. And also because people who do those things tend not to ***** and moan about how they should be safe in open space.

So you know what the difference is between a miner who is afk, and one who is botting? I sure don't. It's like the Pepsi Challenge.

"9 out of 10 Caldari Navy Antimatter shells can't tell the difference!"

If reporting them worked, we wouldn't have to gank them.

so not interacting with the game is fine, you were just arguing that was the issue because you were parroting some one else's incorrect propaganda than using your own brain?

reporting them does work, you just want to pretend it doesn't so you've got some pretend moral high ground to stand on to justify ganking them [tip, this is eve, you don't need a false pretext to shoot some one.]

But not playing the game while logged in, in open space, and making money? That is not fine. It's actually far worse than mission running, despite how very bad that activity is for being engaging gameplay.

A miner doesn't even shoot anything, they just sit there. Like scenery.

also fun fact; afking in an ishtar makes MORE money for LESS interaction. yet you don't go around ganking them now do you? (or you might, i don't know, but you sure don't whine about it as much that's for sure)

Of course I try to kill them. Noticeable difference though, way more of them try to get away because they're actually at their keyboards. Bagged two Oracles in short succession with my SB character last week, though. Renters, yeesh.

no, it's easier for them to get away because it's far easier to identify hostiles outside of high sec.

Both warrant their destruction.

and power to you. just stop pretending it's for some greater good rather than the fact that you find it hilarious and entertaining. :P

Of course it's hilarious and entertaining.

It just so happens that it is for a greater good.

It just so happens that it is for a greater good.

We'll see about that, when prices shift because recycling isn't as profitable/industry relevant anymore as it used to be...

The greater good my a...

We'll see about that, when prices shift because recycling isn't as profitable/industry relevant anymore as it used to be...

The greater good my a...

mineral prices won't shift that much, ccp are dumping more minerals in high end ore in an attempt to make the prospector relevant rather than redundant.

Any major shift in mineral prices will most likely be reflected by the market i.e inflation.

The people who will lose out are the people whose income doesn't scale with inflation i.e ratters and mission runners.

You're not funny, and your post suck hard.

Of course. They've gotten the capabilities of the real players repeatedly nerfed over the years.

It's only proof of one thing. Clearly, mining is too easy. I suggest we add loot spew to the asteroids. The added benefit being that you pretty much cannot bot it, and surely miners would never approve of botting, right?

if you want to do your part to stop bots; report them.

Logged in to my (usually) sleepy out of the way system this morning only to see this.

I am disappointed in you capsuleers...

Ah, don't worry, it'll only get worse...

No, sitting in a belt pressing F1 every half an hour is actively not playing the game. Do try to keep up.

Just because you don't like an activity in the game doesn't mean you have to go and ruin it for everyone else who does. Don't understand how anyone could like mining? Good for you. It's not your cup of tea. Politely go somewhere else so us indy folks can get back to making the ships your use to PvP.

You misunderstand... they are HELPING us poor, clueless miners... really, they do... that's what their leader said!

Sorry... been in General too long today.

Seriously though, they do it to make their isk efficiency look nice on their killboards. But it's really not hard to realize that the only form of effective PvP that they can do if ganking unsuspecting miners.

It's "ISK Destroyed" which could mean ammo use by mission runners, items used in manufacturing, losses to CONCORD, PI items being "destroyed" as they're converted into the next tier, etc. If so, then the PVP folks are really, really, really, really, a trivial part of the economy.

edit: Or it could be isk actually destroyed via isk sinks such as market taxes, etc..

Or CCP really needs to be a bit more descriptive about what metrics they're tracking.

There are people willing to fight so every "true PVP rotflstomper" will stay in the station in hope that Jita freighters will become primary target.

While everything in EVE has *some* boring aspects, mining is the only thing that is nothing but a boring aspect.

Besides, I just bump and gank them because "I'm doing my part" to stop botting.

I really hate people like you.

I have mined for years, and I'm always at my computer, watching the screen/local/directional aligned to an off grid safespot. If I'm not chatting with corpmates, I'm looking at the market or reading up on things about the game.

Just because you don't like an activity in the game doesn't mean you have to go and ruin it for everyone else who does. Don't understand how anyone could like mining? Good for you. It's not your cup of tea. Politely go somewhere else so us indy folks can get back to making the ships your use to PvP.

Coming from someone defending a profession that consists of actively not playing the game, this run on sentence makes perfect sense.

So you know what the difference is between a miner who is afk, and one who is botting? I sure don't. It's like the Pepsi Challenge.

"9 out of 10 Caldari Navy Antimatter shells can't tell the difference!"

If reporting them worked, we wouldn't have to gank them.

There are very few situations in which killing more miners is not an appropriate response.

well, that's cause you probly shoot first then ask questions later, which never works

You are assuming that you are asking the question to the people you are shooting.

you're assuming people will waste time talking to you when it offers 0 benefit to them, also.

Honest question: What exactly do you like about mining? I notice the things you like doing while mining, but those are things that you can while not mining. What entertainment value does mining have for you?

well, that's cause you probly shoot first then ask questions later, which never works

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Suicide ganking is unaffected by inflation afaik.

No but in the larger scope, it would be if enough miners were blown-up. The suicide ships is not created out of thin air. A metric ass ton of ganks need to happen to see a real change but in theory, it "will" happen if the system is pushed far enough.

No but in the larger scope, it would be if enough miners were blown-up. The suicide ships is not created out of thin air. A metric ass ton of ganks need to happen to see a real change but in theory, it "will" happen if the system is pushed far enough.

Honest question: What exactly do you like about mining? I notice the things you like doing while mining, but those are things that you can while not mining. What entertainment value does mining have for you?

Mittens should just do a surprise burn jita this weekend. That would take care of it.

Honest question: What exactly do you like about mining? I notice the things you like doing while mining, but those are things that you can while not mining. What entertainment value does mining have for you?

This.

But make it a surprise.. because hIghsec LOVES surprises!

*edit opps misquoted. dunno who said the original quote, sorry about that

No but in the larger scope, it would be if enough miners were blown-up. The suicide ships is not created out of thin air. A metric ass ton of ganks need to happen to see a real change but in theory, it "will" happen if the system is pushed far enough.

For some reason a bunch of posts in this thread disappeared, including one of mine. It was up to five pages.

There is a simplistic beauty in mining.

That's what I meant, thanks.

@Riot Girl: Sure, and that's the day when the game ends...

Wrong on your alst statement. If mining reward gets higher because the stock of minerals gets too low, more people will start mining. It's only a mattter of how profitable it is. Remember, we get free ships capable of mining if we dock with a pod in an empty station. It's ****** but still able to do it.

This.

But make it a surprise.. because hIghsec LOVES surprises!

We're just going to let the miners hit their targets and then we'll do our part once they've finished.

yea. I have noticed the same: miners work better than 'real players'

1. miners
2. manufacturers/researchers/etc...
3. carebears (mission runners)
4. 'real players' - pvp oriented group

Personally being bad i only added like 300 million to pvp pool yesterday

I don't particularly have an issue with PI. Or with research, or any of that other stuff. Mostly because they aren't in open space while they do it.

pvp doesn't have automation software

wait till the weekend

It's not about automation at all. Here is how the two activities work:

Mining:

1. Warp to known location where target always exists
2. Lock the target
3. Act against the target

PvP:

1. Look for target
2. Lock the target
3. Act against the target

Step 1 is very easy for miners, but tends to be difficult for PvPers. As the population drops (because potential targets are online for only 1-4 hours a day during the week) it's harder to find suitable targets to allow you to proceed to step 2.

On the weekends, people log on for longer. Thus the population is higher, and finding suitable targets is easier.

I like the way the miners feel it's someone else's responsibility to blow up ships and not their own. 'I'm a miner, not a PvPer' is no excuse for not making an effort.

That's because miners actually work. they aren't out there half heartedly trying to rat.. or destroy something. They are used to setting goals and putting in long hours to meet them.

Not particularly. I was killing miners before it was cool. Yes, ganker hipster is a thing.

And as to the PI question..

Not interacting with the game while not being logged in, in open space is fine. You can do whatever you want while you're docked up, no one cares. Trade, make contracts, talk in local, write Fedo poetry, it doesn't matter.

When a PI guy goes to a poco to get his haul, and takes it back to a station, he is playing the game. Unless he's autopiloting.

But not playing the game while logged in, in open space, and making money? That is not fine. It's actually far worse than mission running, despite how very bad that activity is for being engaging gameplay.

A miner doesn't even shoot anything, they just sit there. Like scenery.

trolling aside i'm not sure many pvpers will take responsibility for mining ore and building their own ships
some of them (you can see example right in this thread) even can't understand this thing

Nah, it's just funny that miners in this thread act like they're doing something good for the community, rather than just mining for themselves as they normally would.

Nah, it's just funny that miners in this thread act like they're doing something good for the community, rather than just mining for themselves as they normally would.

I like how the debate favors PvP and miners feel then need to weigh in...

tends to happen when people start spewing incorrect assumptions about things they know nothing about.

Nah, it's just funny that miners in this thread act like they're doing something good for the community, rather than just mining for themselves as they normally would.

Well, they are after all providing minerals that build ships. Less mining = less minerals = more expensive stuff. ISK is not fiat money... it's actually based on the amount of minerals (when you get to the basis of industry). So, the more they mine, the cheaper the stuff for the rest of players is. I'd call that "doing good for the community" since rarely anyone who likes PvP likes to grind to get the ships they need.

ISK is not fiat money... it's actually based on the amount of minerals

So, the more they mine, the cheaper the stuff for the rest of players is.

I think she/he was referring to miners in regard to the topic, not miners in general...

they should scale with the inflation anyway, right?

I think that is the point, too. Mining and PvP feed each other in Eve, Mining gets stuff build, PvP make mining harder so stuff costs more... Blah blah blah. But the current goals are a the point here, and Mining is way ahead of the other areas. (By more than 10% points in most cases.)

Currently (as I post) Mining is 34% of the way to its 25.7Bil goal. While Isk Destroyed (i.e. PvP) has a 5.34 Tril isk goal with only 22% of it met.

Coincidence?

Miners shoot lasers at things that can't shoot back.

Gankers shoot lasers at things that can't refuse to shoot back defend themselves.

Coincidence?

Fixed.

And I apologize for the bait post. We all do things to amuse ourselves, sometimes..

BUT, suicide ganking hasn't much to do with that. You can never suitably defend against that, since it's tuned to overcome every form defense one could muster - well, except backing out, but you don't always see them coming, so - be it ship defenses or even game systems put in place to protect you (CONCORD).

Refuse to defend? Not really... we sometimes simply aren't able to... one thing that should actually not be possible in a PvP centered game.

I actually don't mean you. I spend a lot of time in the Help/Rookie Help channels and it is unbelievably difficult to convince players to be paranoid, even in hisec (much less lowsec and null). I don't even mean having unhealthy amounts of paranoia (like I do!), I mean taking some simple measures to harden up their fits, or best practices when playing. The discussions range between highly recommended risk averse behavior from other players, or lambasting me for making things up about the game.

I think that is the point, too. Mining and PvP feed each other in Eve, Mining gets stuff build, PvP make mining harder so stuff costs more... Blah blah blah. But the current goals are a the point here, and Mining is way ahead of the other areas. (By more than 10% points in most cases.)

Currently (as I post) Mining is 34% of the way to its 25.7Bil goal. While Isk Destroyed (i.e. PvP) has a 5.34 Tril isk goal with only 22% of it met.

Some good fleet battles can pump that up a few of billion per engagement, especially if capitals are involved and get popped. But for general PvP'ers (Ganks, Camps, and Solo, etc) they are going to have a much harder time and have to look for the highest isk targets to go after. Orcas, freighters etc... They could maybe target l4 mission runners (Marauders), and the SoE Cruisers and BS, but in the end Mining is still going to pull out a head because a low skill miner (>1 month old in a free Venture) can make 5 to 20mil isk per hour in highsec, and have little to worry about... A fleet of with Macs and Orcas in high have Concord protecting them from PvP even in 0.5, and their isk/hr is much higher than that lone Venture mining Veldspar (not to mention that they can strip entire belts in a system plus any random ore encounters rather quickly.)

What do you think why I am here?

I have to agree there, though... I never fly a ship that isn't suitably fitted/rigged for the occasion, so I never fly an untanked mining barge/exhumer... BUT, suicide ganking hasn't much to do with that. You can never suitably defend against that, since it's tuned to overcome every form defense one could muster - well, except backing out, but you don't always see them coming, so - be it ship defenses or even game systems put in place to protect you (CONCORD).

Only because CCP doesn't see it as exploitation of a broken system, doesn't mean it isn't... sure, one could argue that this is true for all PvP in the game, but one would be wrong, as far as high sec mining is concearned. We spot them early, or we are toast... we cannot, dunno, attack preamtively, the game systems prevent that... so?

Refuse to defend? Not really... we sometimes simply aren't able to... one thing that should actually not be possible in a PvP centered game.

CONCORD is meant to punish, not protect.

If you want "protection", get some PvP-bros and move to lowsec. If you don't want to work with other players so much (i.e. moving to low), then you can add in a siege warfare link to your Orca (more shield HPs).

Hardly... the difference is, we do it because it is our choosen play style - some of us dedicated the better part of the last decade to it, gankers do it cause they can not be a**ed to do anything other then punp up their tiny... egos... like real PvP.

Not my fault ... but theirs ... and yours.

...and the winner of the "Most condescending Post based on Assumptions" award is!

EDOT: I agree though, "talking" to me is a waste of your time, so stop it... thanks.

Ah, I guess you mentioned that already.

That's 25 billion m3 ... not 25 billion ISK.

Refuse to defend? Not really... we sometimes simply aren't able to... one thing that should actually not be possible in a PvP centered game.

This is true, sometimes you just die. That's how a PvP game works, actually. Everywhere but highsec, that is.

Are you actually telling me that mining ships can't be pre-aligned? Or what?

You're arguing with people who, in their own minds, are victims. You will never ever be able to convinced someone who was born a victim that 'justice' (and safety) is something you make and earn, not something that is given.

You're arguing with people who, in their own minds, are victims. You will never ever be able to convinced someone who was born a victim that 'justice' (and safety) is something you make and earn, not something that is given.

...and there is my favorite cop, I wondered when you'd show up. Also good to see that you still don't know what a "game" is... you know, it's not real life, it's supposed to be fun, and all that.

@Kaarous Aldurald: Because there are no combat mining barges (yet) and you cannot really do mining in a (combat fitted) battleship... highsec is there for a reason, why do "people like you" keep insisting on forcing your "gameplay" on people that clearly don't want to be part of it? That's what I really want to know... and don't give me that NO "the code" bull... I know, it's fun, you already said it yourself... well, it's not fun for everyone...

Bottom line: Your fun enfringes the fun of others... others who are just as entitled to their fun then you are.

Also good to see that you still don't know what a "game" is... you know, it's not real life, it's supposed to be fun, and all that.

Opps my bad, I misread it.

So off the top of my head using your numbers each miner is can mine about 1/100000 to 3/100000 percent of the total goal per hour for mining... okay looks like a small number.

BUT for bounties example the average bounty/hour earned in a l4 high sec mission is about 13million (give or take) or about 1/500000 of a percent. I won't even go into PvP but I would argue that it a much smaller number per hour, only getting bumped when fleet battle occur involving capital ships getting popped.

A fleet of with Macs and Orcas in high have Concord protecting them from PvP even in 0.5,

"highsec is there for a reason"?

Pretty sure that reason isn't "mine endlessly in complete safety".

You might want to drop a ticket so a GM can answer that, but I am pretty sure I saw somewhere that you aren't safe anywhere in EVE unless you're docked. Idk where, just popped into my head for some reason.

If you fly a non combat ship, you have abdicated the ability to defend yourself.

It is also stated nowhere that highsec is where "lazy, bored gankers go to get their kicks", yet it's a reality... you may be the exception, since you gank everywhere as you said yourself, but there are others that take the easiest route to get their thrills.

Nah, plenty of ships that dont have combat as their primary roles can defend themselves.

Abdication of personal responsibility is the fault of the pilot, not of the ship manufacturers

You are woefully out of place in this competitive game. You should be playing a game that only offers 'co-op' style play and that has solid rules and mechanics against competition and 'griefing'.

Nah, plenty of ships that dont have combat as their primary roles can defend themselves.

Abdication of personal responsibility is the fault of the pilot, not of the ship manufacturers

"Defend yourself" meaning "shoot back" in this instance.

As opposed to highsec, where it means "tank enough to not die before the invincible all powerful space police arrive".

NOTE --> I'm probably (still) effing up the maths, since i'm doing this on the fly, rather than with a good tool (yay work).

\

I, again, have to respectfully disagree... EVE is not "just" a competative game, it's also a cooperative game... it's a sandbox non the less, not a MOBA or dedicated e-sports game. Granted, basically everything in EVE is a cometition of some sorts, but without cooperation it would be non existent...

That, of course, also means: EVE is what players make of it...

I ask you, Shalua Rui, if you feel the way you obvioulsy do, WHY are you playing EVE instead of Star Trek Online or some other game where people like Kaarous can't do what they do?It makes no sense to me. Personally, if i didn't like being tackled, the LAST thing I'd do is strap on pads and walk onto an American football field.

It is also stated nowhere that highsec is where "lazy, bored gankers go to get their kicks", yet it's a reality... you may be the exception, since you gank everywhere as you said yourself, but there are others that take the easiest route to get their thrills.

I ask you, Shalua Rui, if you feel the way you obvioulsy do, WHY are you playing EVE instead of Star Trek Online or some other game where people like Kaarous can't do what they do?It makes no sense to me. Personally, if i didn't like being tackled, the LAST thing I'd do is strap on pads and walk onto an American football field.

EvEs core mechanics =/= problems

I'll answer in a second, but first: It's not just "me" I'm writing about here... actually, it's not really me at all, since I have had my play style for close to 10 years now, and I never had any problems with the game or it's community, whatsoever... I mean, in all my years, I only lost 4 ships (my own fault), and I never been podded once... what I'm talking about is the problems the game has. The prolblems that CCP seam to be unabe to fix (s they just ignore them call them emergent gameplay ), the problems that make EVE a nieche product that the general populus perceive as either a toxic playground for virtual sociopaths or/and speard sheets in space.

So, why do I play it? Because I'm fiercely in love with it... I love the mood, the style, the lore, the people I choose to play with, the theory crafting and fiddling with ships, the industry and the markets... no other game has that.

That's why they are redone every now and then... uhu.

That's why they are redone every now and then... uhu.

That's why they are redone every now and then... uhu.

So let me rephrase. Why do you put up with things you obviously hate when you could be playing other (almost) as in depth games that also mechanically prevent the things you obviously hate?

I hate people picking on other people...

that's my baseline... I would have to stop living if I would try to avoid that. I can't have it, I can't enjoy it, and I can't understand other people that do... not even in a game. *shrugs*

Why do I want EVE to be more popular? Because it's a good game that turns many people off with it's general unfriendlyness, and (certain parts) of the community are as much to blame for that then CCP... difference is, CCP seams to be willing to learn... sometimes.

Here you go.

https://register.perfectworld.com/sto_splashB

If you let in the muggles, it wont be a good game anymore

I came to EvE because of the lack of WoWheads and CoDKids, not inspite of it

I came to EvE because of the lack of WoWheads and CoDKids, not inspite of it

I'm pretty sure there a plenty of the latter in certain corps...

I hate people picking on other people... that's my baseline... I would have to stop living if I would try to avoid that. I can't have it, I can't enjoy it, and I can't understand other people that do... not even in a game. *shrugs*

...and no, no other game has exactly what EVE has ...yet.

FInally: Why do I want EVE to be more popular? Because it's a good game that turns many people off with it's general unfriendlyness, and (certain parts) of the community are as much to blame for that then CCP... difference is, CCP seams to be willing to learn... sometimes.

This is exactly what I mean when i say that some of us are suited to (and like) the realities of EVE whereas others would rather it changed to the uninteresting 'mass appeal' crap that is the rest of the MMO world.