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vyperpit
Gallente
Yes no maybe - i dont know
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Posted - 2006.08.23 19:39:00 -
[1981]
so who started this amarr movement, i remember that it was a blaster movement which was looked into, then the amarr came out on mass
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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.23 20:13:00 -
[1982]
 Originally by: inSpirAcy
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 23/08/2006 19:38:24
Originally by: Ithildin
I've been thinking (ohnoes!), what if capacitor use on lasers were cut by 35% (lasers'll be the most capacitor intensive weapon - but not by too much - while in turn also have another bonus) and the cap use bonus changed. What kind of bonus'd Amarr ships have in it's place?
10% bonus to Energy Turret Heat per level.
The lasers become, erm... less efficient, and their EM damage becomes more thermal. 
Edit: Knowing Tux, he'd give us an Energy Turret Efficiency bonus to generate less heat. 
Thermal damage isn't what lasers need. What they need is for game mechanics to allow for better specific tanks than thermal tanks. It's very simple to proove why EM damage is worse than TH damage currently - Omni-tank goodness makes it so not anything else.
Changing to more thermal damage would just be a kneejerk reaction which none would benefit from in the end. Except Caldari missile boats.
Dark skies torn apart
Heavens open before me
I, the light of death |
inSpirAcy
Caldari
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.23 20:26:00 -
[1983]
I know, it was a joke.
I think every possible solution to the Amarr problem has been discussed over and over in this and other threads, and the best I've seen don't involve touching Amarrian ships or lasers at all (instead addressing the fundamental causes of the gross imbalance in PvP armor and shield tankers). There's nothing more to discuss so I just keep the thread going with entertainment. 
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.23 20:48:00 -
[1984]
Originally by: Ithildin
I've been thinking (ohnoes!), what if capacitor use on lasers were cut by 35% (lasers'll be the most capacitor intensive weapon - but not by too much - while in turn also have another bonus) and the cap use bonus changed. What kind of bonus'd Amarr ships have in it's place?
Now, before you get all lyrical and stuff, I've gone ahead and made a quick calculation - damage bonus would be completely and utterly overpowered, so don't even go there.
Nyxus:
If you change the compensation skills to add 2% to active resistance hardener gain, and then make EAN an activated hardener, would that suffice you think? It'll nerf EAN2's maximum resistance output from 25% to 22%.
At the same time, this has the desired effect on current active hardeners, as described earlier, without changing their stats. All that'd be left after this is to boost the passive plates a bit (the same is true for shields, although with shields the invulnerability fields need to be nerfed a wee bit - from 30% to 20%)
Hmm...interesting about the bonus change for lasers Ithildin. I am not sure how the Energy Consumption would go yet. On a geddon with a cap injector it's all I can do to run reppers and lasers with 50% bonus. Could definitely be worth a slight nerf if the bonus was somewhat usefull though. Wonderful idea though, a great thought experiment trying to stretch eve in a new direction at the very least. Kudos on that.
So no damage bonus. What about a ROF bonus then? J/K
A bonus to armor amount per level might give a survivability bonus and a boost to tanking without being overpowered. Not sure what else would work without being uber. Will give it some thought.
TBH I don't think changing Omni's to actives and passive skills to active would be enough. Right now you can get 4 slots worth of "oldschool" hardening for the price of 3 "newschool". 5 if you consider the DC acts as a plate. A freed low slot with less CPU used is a powerful incentive to counteract, even if you only used 22%.
New numbers: EANII(22%) + DC(13%)
Apoc 60/20/25/35 = 78.827/57.568/60.3019/65.594
For less CPU and 1 fewer slots you could still get high resists very close to what you could get with individual hardeners. TBH I just don't see a scenario where I would use oldschool over newschool even with the boost to individual actives. I don't think it would be enough. Nerfing armor Omni hardeners back down to is the only way I can see of making active or individual passive hardening attractive again.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux
The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.23 22:12:00 -
[1985]
The real problem there would be the damage control.
2 EAN2 + DC would be 4 * 45% armor res + 54%+ hull res vs 3 * 60% armor res. The armor res boost of both is pretty much the same, but the EAN2 setup gives you hull res boni on top of that.
Due to the nonstacking of DC res it can be used as replacement for the 3rd EAN2 since that one gives after stacking penality about the same resistance bonus as the DC.
Mhh.. perhaps make DC totally passive and remove the shield & armor res boni and just leave the hull res?
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Andreask14
Sensus Numinis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.23 22:54:00 -
[1986]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 23/08/2006 22:55:38
I am very confident that the EANIIs and DCs will not get changed just because one of the less played races by a good margin has some problems with them.
What i do think however, is that within the amarrian options things will change. One of the Devs mentioned on EvE-Tv that the Apocalypse will get a complete overhaul.
I am curious as to what he has on his mind.
/edit oh looky, new page  greetings fellow amarrians !
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south24
Rage of Angels
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.23 23:06:00 -
[1987]
my daily bump...
I finish drone int 5 in a few hours... think I'll be training gallente by the morning 
------------------------------------
Originally by: Trepkos
The only difference between GS and NPCs is that GS respawn quicker
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Ios Thadium
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Posted - 2006.08.24 08:44:00 -
[1988]
Bump
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Cutie Chaser
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Posted - 2006.08.24 10:48:00 -
[1989]
Just wanted to add, I sympathize with all the Amarrians here. I spent some time flying amarr ships with lasers, and never would do so again. After I finish training for t2 Projectiles however, might get a chance to fly the giant golden schlong again, as it seems from this thread they are decent with Minmatar turrents mounted in place of lasers(?). |
Xendie
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.24 11:12:00 -
[1990]
was fitting out a crusader this morning.
ended up repackaging it and fitted out a crow and a ranis instead
i have lots of small beams in my hangar but nothing that they will fit on.
Quote:
Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
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inSpirAcy
Caldari
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.24 11:19:00 -
[1991]
No Amarrian ship is "decent" with projectiles, no matter what people might try to tell you. There are situations where projectiles will outperform lasers on an Amarrian ship, but it'll get spanked every time by a Minmatar ship fitting the same guns (and inheriting bonuses for them).
Xendie: beams suck on the Crusader. Well, they actually suck on everything with the current powergrid issues, but they suck even more on AFs / interceptors because Gleam kills your sig radius. She's better as a pulse ship, as is the Malediction.
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tehnomage
Amarr
Out Siders
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Posted - 2006.08.24 11:36:00 -
[1992]
prolly my first and only post here.
At some point there was a conversation in my corp regarding some amarr players ( including me), players that asked what ship would benefit more the corp in times of war, ergo what should we train/specialize into that would be best for the corp ( I myself looking forward on a few days that I have left till a Zealot). The answer to that got me a bit surprized, and I think that pretty much says it all, and I quote :
"Just train gallente/caldari, as long as Tux is in charge with the balancing, you can't go wrong with that".
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willie burns
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Posted - 2006.08.24 11:56:00 -
[1993]
is there any point of this thread continuing ? i keep hearing about how the devs do a great job and how great the customer service is. no reply yet on this subject  i think it was pointed out that most of the devs characters are caldari, how many are amarr ? have they flown amarr recently ? have they tired fitting medium beam lasers on a cruiser and keep some sort of decent tank ? i hope they have, but yet still no response. amarr in its current state are only good for PvE. tanks but no tanks, i'm training for caldari now, they seem to get most of the loving from the devs.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.24 13:15:00 -
[1994]
Originally by: willie burns
is there any point of this thread continuing ? i keep hearing about how the devs do a great job and how great the customer service is. no reply yet on this subject i think it was pointed out that most of the devs characters are caldari, how many are amarr ? have they flown amarr recently ? have they tired fitting medium beam lasers on a cruiser and keep some sort of decent tank ? i hope they have, but yet still no response. amarr in its current state are only good for PvE. tanks but no tanks, i'm training for caldari now, they seem to get most of the loving from the devs.
Amarr ships are not even that good at pve to be honest, with the exception of the shield tanked curse with drones + launchers.
---
Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour
FREE |
Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.24 13:31:00 -
[1995]
Just a friendly reminder, mates. Bumping is only allowed in the trade forums - and then only once per day by the thred creator.
Besides, do you really think this thred needs bumping (posts without contents)? It only does more harm than good (who will read 50 pages of posts where only 20% have content?).
Dark skies torn apart
Heavens open before me
I, the light of death |
Lucre
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.24 13:38:00 -
[1996]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Amarr ships are not even that good at pve to be honest, with the exception of the shield tanked curse with drones + launchers.
Except against Sanshas etc. They're easy to kill.
But then of course they're a laser-race so they would be...
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.24 13:42:00 -
[1997]
Originally by: Ithildin
Just a friendly reminder, mates. Bumping is only allowed in the trade forums - and then only once per day by the thred creator.
Besides, do you really think this thred needs bumping (posts without contents)? It only does more harm than good (who will read 50 pages of posts where only 20% have content?).
True, this tread has served it's purpose and it's getting more pointless with every page. Sadly we have no dev response, but I honestly can't blame them (what are they responding to btw?).
I'd love to see many things done for Amarr, but it's in the devs hands currently and we have to trust their ability to set things straight.
- - - - - -
I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.24 13:54:00 -
[1998]
Amarr needs help and the more often our Devs see this thread when they take a look at the forums, the better.
Also, we're trying to break 100 pages here! So don't spoil our record. 
Forsch
Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
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Posted - 2006.08.24 14:00:00 -
[1999]
Edited by: madaluap on 24/08/2006 14:02:10
Originally by: Xendie
was fitting out a crusader this morning.
ended up repackaging it and fitted out a crow and a ranis instead
i have lots of small beams in my hangar but nothing that they will fit on.
lol you are a big whiner, hahahahahah crusader damn that really is a nice inty...
sorry but this made me chuckle
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.08.24 14:27:00 -
[2000]
Edited by: Nyxus on 24/08/2006 14:32:18
Here I will iterate and reiterate some of the issues and fixes for your literary pleasure, and ease of reading.
1) Amarr don't tank better
PROBLEM - Amarr supposedly armor tank better than anyone else. We sacrifice mids, which represent pvp strength and flexibility, for supposed better defense. Amarr don't have significantly better armor on the "defense specialist" ships and don't tank much better than anyone else. Any armor tanking ship only needs 2 EAN II's and a DC with a rep to tank. 2 reps if you want to go crazy tank. Most armor tanking ships can fit this with ease, both slot wise and fitting wise. In addition, the effective built in EAN II that Amarr defensive ships get "frees up" a low slot, something amarr already have in abundance and are inarguably less valuable for pvp. This is coupled with the fact that tanking ships don't have enough extra grid/cpu to fit lots of tanking mods like plates leaves a lot of extra lows with not much to fill them with.
SOLUTION Give "defensive" ships ships like the Maller/Proph/Punisher a 5% armor resist and 10% armor amount bonus per level Tanking ships are already at a disadvantage since there is a dearth of low slot mods that are truly useful for pvp after fitting a 4 or even 5 slot tank. Let the th be significantly better. Give Caldari tanking ships a bonus to shield amount as well, but possibly limit it to 5% per level due to passive regen. Change Apoc to same 5%resists/10% armor per lvl instead of cap since cap booster changes makes this bonus useless. Consider boosting grid/cpu some so that ships without damage bonuses (who already do less damage even with the heaviest weapons) can fill the lows with extra plates and hardeners. Tanking in general is less attractive that damage, and these "defense" specialist ships really aren't significantly better tanks than comparable ships from other races.
2) Amarr don't gank better
PROBLEM - lots of em, from a variety of sources. Amarr do 2 things well and sacrifice mids/flexibility to do it. DPS and Tank. Both are semi borked atm for a variety of reasons. Let's break it down to make it easy.
[list]Tanking changes, pushing everyone to passive tanks royally screwed Amarr. Where everyone used to fit therm/kin/expl hardners and had all resists right about 60%, passive tanking changes makes it so that base resists on a 3 slot tank with EANII x2 + DC is 80/60/62.5/67.5 for an apoc. This means that amarr took a 50% damage reduction when tanking changed. Do the math if you dont believe me.
SOLUTION A couple ideas look promising. Dropping EM resists on armor to 40% and upping shield resists to 20% would solve the problem for the most part dropping EANII + DC hardened armor to 70EM. Still to high for a non-specific tank, but loads better than 80%. Or nerfing EAN IIs to 15% and making them active is a must. The passive comp skills make even 20% too powerful and too great an incentive to use when applied to Base Armor resists. Then boost individual passives up to 50% with skills. This pushes individual tanking and doesn't make a every generalized tanking setup anti amarr. Right now, every ship over frigate size fits this tank because its so easy to fit and effective against everything. Who wouldn't? Answer: No one.
Compounding the issue is the EM reliance that crystals have. While all other ammo types have a fairly decent 50/50 split, Amarr crystals are predominantly EM, with Radio being 100% EM. This especially hurts smaller Amarr frigs and cruisers who have to fit longer range crystals to reach medium range (supposed Amarr specialty).
SOLUTION- change the distribution to be more equal therm/EM like the other racial Ammos. Either than or boost EM crystal damage significantly.
continued.......
Originally by: Tux
The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.08.24 14:28:00 -
[2001]
continued.....
7) Some Amarr slot layouts need adjusting.
PROBLEM 1 midslot for pvp just makes a ship decidedly sub par. Yes, there are things you can do with it, but only having 1 mid cripples the ship for pvp. The Coercer and Retri need two mid slots.
SOLUTION -The Coercer can lose a low for a mid, and the Retri can lose a high slot for a mid. If the Claw and the Crusader can have the same slot layout (4/2/4) and be balanced then the Retri and Coercer can be more similar in slot layout to thier racial counterparts as well.
8) Khanid ships SUCK. Khanid ships are pointless, half-baked versions of the gunboats. Amarr already have less flexibility in ships than other races, we NEED Khanid ships to do/be more than a lesser version of the gunboat/tank we already have.
SOLUTION -Sarmaul. His MKII design is exactly what Amarr need for diversity in ships for gameplay and also interest to boost player retention. Missile spewing cool black looking ships are what Amarr desperately need atm. If an itinerant matari slave makes a suggestion to boost Amarr because they stink so much, you know that it HAS to be bad.
9) Cap Use SUCKS TOO. With longer and longer fights, cap use becomes more and more of an issue. Gallente and Amarr both struggle with firing weapons and tanking for any decent length of time even with cap injectors. A slight reduction in cap use for firing guns is in order.
SOLUTION Increase the controlled burst skill to 7.5% or 10% per level. This alleviates the obliterating cap needs of blasters/lasers just a bit. When eve was "20 seconds everything dead" cap for firing wasn't a problem. With todays fights it's become more and more problematic. With max skills a geddon or thron should be on the knife edge of no cap all the time.
I know I have missed a few, and a few concepts are still percolating. I just like to rehash all the Amarr issues every 20 or 30 pages so we can keep track of good ideas and keep the post on topic. I hope Tux and his band of merry balancers finds this helpfull. I have numbers on most of this (Amarr ships with too low pg, radio damage type distribution compared to other races, etc.) but I didn't want to post everything in the summary for brevity's sake. I will be more than happy to do so if anyone needs it.
Thanks from your Amarr Overlords (TAO),
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux
The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.08.24 14:28:00 -
[2002]
Continued......
Designated "gank ships" like the Omen and Zealot sacrifice mids, large drone bays, and flexibility in order to gain larger turret damage. The problem is that with the stacking changes, they can't do more damage. This leaves them all the negatives without the benefit.
SOLUTION - Give the Omen more fitting to fit at least Heavy Pulses and something else besides fitting mods, or better yet Heavy Beams. Drop the missile hardpoint for an extra turret hardpoint on both ships. The whole point of these ships are turret DPS, let them do it well. The fact that a Vagabond with T1 ammo outdamages a Zealot is just sick and wrong. 5 turrets puts the Zealot where it ought to be, below the Deimos but above the Vagabond. Side Note: please consider giving the Diemos a bit more grid for my Gallente friends.[/list]
4) Some Amarr ship fittings are BROKEN.
PROBLEM Why does the Coercer and the Thrasher have the same fittings, when lasers are MUCH harder to fit and the Coercer has an extra high turret slot? Why does the Crusader and Claw have the same fittings when the Crusader has to fit lasers and has an extra turret to fit as well? Why doesn't the maller have enough grid to fit it's utility slot with ANYTHING? Lasers take more fitting than other weapons. Amarr have more turrets than most other racial ships. GIVING AMARR THE SAME GRID/CPU AS OTHER RACIAL SHIP IS DUMBÖ. Remember kids, don't be dumbÖ - they're all gonna laugh at you! In addition, ships should be able to fill all thier slots with about the same difficulty. Even utility slots. Finally, please consider that low slot mods take up a LOT more CPU than midslot mods take up PG. A LOT. Gallente and Amarr could both use a slight boost to CPU on the ships that primarily armor tank.
5) Some Amarr weapons are BROKEN.
PROBLEM Amarr have 2 long range frigate guns. One is so weak as to be useless. The other, Medium Beam Lasers (small lasers fyi) don't fit on anything less than a cruiser. Other weapons like Heavy Beams/Pulses are a little too hard to fit, even for ships with extra low slots. Some weapons are non existant when gameplay could really use them. A beam laser between Dual Light Beams and Medium Beams for example. A large equivalent to gatling pulse lasers as well.
SOLUTION -Make Medium Beam lasers easier to fit and look up the Beam laser tree to make sure they are all appropriate. Introduce another Small and Medium beam laser that goes in between Dual Lights/Medium Beams. Introduce a Large Gatling Pulse laser. Amarr are the turret specialist race, we need those turrets.
6) Tanking is still in need of some love.
PROBLEM Encouraging tanking to make pvp last longer is good. But even with the RMR changes it's still not strong enough. With an extra low it still makes way more sense to fit an extra 2 or 3 damage mods or (worse) stabbies. Making resists stronger than they are currently leads to "infinite tanking of smaller ships" issues. Low slots are devalued because tanking mods take tremendous resources compared to damage mods, stabbies, etc, and the fact that there are many fewer pvp valuable low slot mods vs mid slot mods.
SOLUTION Vastly reduce the grid/cpu needs of plates and extenders. In order for pvp to last longer, larger HP are needed, but more blanket hp increases could unbalance the game. Let ships utilize extra lows and mids for more general HP. If extenders and plates had fitting reqs similar to WCS or Damage mods we would see them more often. Oversizing is not a true issue, as large amounts of hp even on a carrier or dread is still easily destroyed. This will just encourage larger HP and longer fight times. The question of whether or not to fit a plate or a damage mod should be difficult, not a no brainer. |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.24 14:34:00 -
[2003]
Originally by: Nyxus
This means that amarr took a 50% damage reduction when tanking changed.
50% only for radio. For other crystals it varies from 23% (gleam) over 29% (multifreq) to 33% (aurora). Which is still quite significant, mind you. But it hurts more than it helps to overexaggerate the problem.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.08.24 14:44:00 -
[2004]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nyxus
This means that amarr took a 50% damage reduction when tanking changed.
50% only for radio. For other crystals it varies from 23% (gleam) over 29% (multifreq) to 33% (aurora). Which is still quite significant, mind you. But it hurts more than it helps to overexaggerate the problem.
This is true. I was imprecise. But most T1 ammo is overly EM weighted, especially when considering other racial ammos. Radio being the "stand out" problem. Most of the T2 ammos are more balanced between EM/Therm so the tanking changes effected them, but not as much as some of the T1 ammos.
Thanks for keeping me honest Aramendel.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux
The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.24 15:11:00 -
[2005]
So, in shorter terms:
Tanks
Punisher, Maller, Prophecy, and Apocalypse
Bonuses: +5% armour resistances and +10% armour hit points
Other changes: None.
Comments: Seem pretty darned fine to me. Will also solve the problem, slightly, with the Maller being better than the Omen.
Assaults
Omen, tier2bc, Armageddon
Bonuses: No change (+5% ROF and -10% cap use)
Other changes: Tweaked fitting to allow slightly better weaponry on avarage.
Comments: None.
Module changes
Crystals (short to long range order)
Multifrequency S - 7 EM, 5 TH
Gamma S - 6 EM, 5 TH (-1 EM, +1 TH)
Xray S - 6 EM, 4 TH
Ultraviolet S - 5 EM, 4 TH (-1 EM, +1 TH)
Standard S - 5 EM, 3 TH
Infrared S - 4 EM, 3 TH (-1 EM, +1 TH)
Microwave S - 4 EM, 2 TH
Radio S - 3 EM, 2 TH (-2 EM, +2 TH)
These are base damage for small crystals. Larger crystals are scaled from these!
Omni and specific hardeners
Put in general terms - balance should be given that specific hardeners should be more beneficial when three or more hardeners are required on a non-"Assault hardened" ship.
Increased gain on specific hardeners, decreased on omni hardeners.
The lasers
The Dual Light Beam can be discussed (clearly better than other tier 1's, but slightly worse than other comparable tier 2 turrets), but the Medium Beam doesn't need discussing at all.
* Medium Beam Laser I dropped in powergrid useage from 16 to 11. (1 MW above 150mm Railgun I, for example, sounds about right, no?)
* Gatling Beam Laser I for small turrets.
* Quad Light Pulse Laser I for medium turrets (this one is missing, too, you know)
* Quad Medium Pulse Laser I for large turrets.
* Perhaps removal of the use of "light" on cruiser classed turrets, removal of "medium" on battleship, as well as removal of use of the word "heavy" on crusier weapons... no?
Fittings
Powergrid
Generally, slightly more powergrid on the "assault" type ships, elite ships, and the new-line ships (BC and Dessies).
CPU
Generally, slightly more CPU for armour tankers. ALL armour tankers. Not just Amarr.
Plates and extenders
Vastly reduced fittings. Personally, I'd say "remove powergrid and CPU fittings and rely on ship nerfs to limit oversizing". Also, we've got about twice as many armour plates as we need, you know...
Cap usage
Increase potency of Controlled Burst skill to 7.5% or 10% per level.
Specific ships
* All Khanid ships need revamping.
* A minimum of 2 mid slots should be implemented in game for any and all ships.
* All Roden Shipyards ships need revamping... oops how did that one get in there?
Does this sound about right, Nyxus? I know I've left one or two things out, but I was trying to keep it concise and not make too many argumentations.
Dark skies torn apart
Heavens open before me
I, the light of death |
inSpirAcy
Caldari
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.24 15:19:00 -
[2006]
And while you're at it, address the damage gap between Focused Medium Pulse and Heavy Pulse because currently it's much larger than the mid-tiers medium turrets of other races.
Heavy Pulse is just as hard to fit to sub-BC ships as Heavy Neutrons are on Gallente ships; the difference is that Ions are half way between Electrons and Neutrons. Focused Mediums do barely more damage than Quad Light Beams.
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Lucre
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.24 15:22:00 -
[2007]
Laser T2 Ammo Suffers the Worst of Both Worlds
It expires, so you only have a finite number of shots. But it has enough shots that you have no choice but to carry far more rounds per gun than you're likely to need, especially on a fleet BS.
Lose a T2 Mega with 200 Spike L per gun and you're down under 2M isk.
Lose a T2 Pest with 200 Tremor L per gun and you're down 600k.
Lose a T2 Geddon with 7 Aurora L and you're down around 17M.
T2 crystals need to be something like 1/10 the shots and (hopefully) 1/10 the price.
(Okay, Amarr are partly compensated in that large T2 lasers only currently cost a fraction of the price of T2 rails, or for that matter T2 Projectiles. Though that of course tells its own story about whether the races are currently balanced or not...)
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.08.24 16:22:00 -
[2008]
Originally by: Nyxus
SOLUTION Vastly reduce the grid/cpu needs of plates and extenders. In order for pvp to last longer, larger HP are needed, but more blanket hp increases could unbalance the game. Let ships utilize extra lows and mids for more general HP. If extenders and plates had fitting reqs similar to WCS or Damage mods we would see them more often. Oversizing is not a true issue, as large amounts of hp even on a carrier or dread is still easily destroyed. This will just encourage larger HP and longer fight times. The question of whether or not to fit a plate or a damage mod should be difficult not easy.
I blame the uberness of damage mods, regardless of the stacking penalty. 23% more damage is way too much, especially considering the fitting requirement and the way tanking works.
NB.
In Rust We Trust |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.24 16:37:00 -
[2009]
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Originally by: Nyxus
SOLUTION Vastly reduce the grid/cpu needs of plates and extenders. In order for pvp to last longer, larger HP are needed, but more blanket hp increases could unbalance the game. Let ships utilize extra lows and mids for more general HP. If extenders and plates had fitting reqs similar to WCS or Damage mods we would see them more often. Oversizing is not a true issue, as large amounts of hp even on a carrier or dread is still easily destroyed. This will just encourage larger HP and longer fight times. The question of whether or not to fit a plate or a damage mod should be difficult not easy.
I blame the uberness of damage mods, regardless of the stacking penalty. 23% more damage is way too much, especially considering the fitting requirement and the way tanking works.
NB.
QFT, damage mods are too uber and have only made this recent DPS obsession worse.
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.08.24 18:18:00 -
[2010]
Originally by: Ithildin
So, in shorter terms:
<Cut excellent summation for page space>
Does this sound about right, Nyxus? I know I've left one or two things out, but I was trying to keep it concise and not make too many argumentations.
It's pretty darn close. The only thing I would only add a couple of things.
- The Omen desperately needs a lot more grid/cpu. It and the Zealot both need a 5th turret slot. I can dig up the dps graphs that Meridius did if anyone wants to see them.
- Sader, Coercer have the same grid as thier Matari counterparts. They have more turrets with turrets that are harder to fit. That needs to be adjusted. All ships should be equally difficult to fit, within reason.
- Lasers: Some name adjustment would be VERY agreeable. It's just confusing atm even for me who is Amarr specialized.
*Medium beam CPU needs to be adjusted as well. Amarr aren't known for thier CPU.
*Large Gatling Pulse would be good.
*Gatling Beam or a Beam placed in between the duel and medium if "medium beam" are meant to be a Tachyon equivalent.
*The difference between AC 800ss and 650s is only slightly less damage at the same range. It would be nice if the Amarr had the same damage at slightly less range. Right now it's double penalized, less range and less damage. This makes "hybrid" fits like what you see in Matari very very difficult for Amarr. We won't surpass Blaster tracking/damage so stepping on Gallente toes is not a problem.
- CPU - *ALL* armor tankers in general. Amarr, Gallente, and Matari armor tankers (like the Phoon tbh). Armor tankers should be fighting struggling with Grid, and be "ok" on CPU. Caldari should struggle with CPU rather than grid. Right now all armor tankers in general struggle both CPU AND Grid. Gallente (Mega, Rax) and Amarr (Geddon, Maller, Proph, Apoc) struggle hard with both.
- Plates and Extenders. Nailed this one. Either radically reduce fittings or radically boost the regenerative membranes (gives a % of armor) up to 30% or even 40%. Would resolve a lot of oversizing issues as it's a % rather than a fixed number.
That about sums it up. I appreciate the excellent summation Ithildin. And tbh I agree with the Roden Shipyards revamp. Ares 4TL. You did forget the boost to the Deimos grid that I put in there though.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux
The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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