I too welcome our one member corp overlords.

I too welcome our one member corp overlords.

No, no.

The universal forum alt corpGäó would pop up.

Why restrict the ability of players to discuss game related topics in the forum just because they have a different playstyle?

I understand what you try to achive, but i don't think it's the solution we need. Yes, i would prefer it if you had to post with your main, would defenitely make trolling harder here. But i don't think it's appropriated to punish all those casual players who want (for several reasons) to stay in their npc-corps just to get rid of some forum-trolls.

Nothing will stop trolling.

NOTHING.

There has already been a precedent set for this idea by CAOD; in CAOD NPC alts cannot post and the quality of that forum is significantly better than other forums albeit slower.

I have taken the liberty of notifying CCP's Community Team and pointing them to this thread.
If and/or when it will be replied to, is not for me to say.

But rest assured that in the meantime CCL will keep an eye on this thread.
I would also like to urge everybody to keep this discussion civil and on topic.

OP while I don't disagree with you in principle I cannot agree with the above statement, CAOD has a signal to noise ratio as bad as GD if not worse. I also have a problem with restricting the paying customers ability to post no matter how distasteful I personally consider posting with a forum alt to be.

I also find it hard to believe that your proposal would reduce the amount of trolling on the forums, fact is the only thing that would probably do that is shutting the forums down.

Why restrict the ability of players to discuss game related topics in the forum just because they have a different playstyle?

I understand what you try to achive, but i don't think it's the solution we need. Yes, i would prefer it if you had to post with your main, would defenitely make trolling harder here. But i don't think it's appropriated to punish all those casual players who want (for several reasons) to stay in their npc-corps just to get rid of some forum-trolls.

[...] the quality of [CAOD] is significantly better than other forums albeit slower.

That's something I never thought I'd see.

I'm not sure how well this idea would work, but it's interesting nonetheless. Also, I feel that I should note that CAOD is not only restricted by only allowing people in player corps to post, but also that those corps have to have 10+ (or so) active accounts in them, or something of the sort. A simple player-corps-only restriction wouldn't do anything than make McTrollAlt in The Scope join the corp McTrollAltDOT and carry on.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the possible CT (CCP Falcon et al.) response on this.

I'm sorry but what gives you guys the right to even think that just because I am a nobody who is in an NPC corp means I can't have access to the forums? I think you should rethink your strategy next time. Just because I don't want to be involved in wars and want to do whatever I feel like when I get on doesn't mean I should not have restricted access to PUBLIC forums.

I still don't believe that I should be restricted to participate in threads on the forums just because I don't want to be in a corporation. I've been there, done that, and it's not my thing. With that being said, I don't believe that my subscription fee should restrict me from accessing the same content that you access with your subscription fee, just because you are in a player corp. Just curious, did you think about that side of the conversation, or are you hellbent on defending your side of the conversation, just because a few people that wish to remain anonymous gave you a rough time?

On topic one of the things the game is about is consequences and there should be consequences for your actions on the in-game forum. Why do you think you should be free of the consequences from your actions on one of the game's medium?

And for reference, I have thought on the side of the table where you are sitting, and my solution to this problem wouldn't be restricting people from access to parts of the forum, but to add something called an "approve comment" button. If the poster wants to keep trolls out of his thread, then he would have the ability to approve comments before public eyes could see them. This would, in turn, most likely create a delay in which people had the ability to get knowledge out there, but I think this would be a limited function of the actual Corp part of the forum.

If the problem is not being allowed to link an active character with the poster, just have the forum lock profiles to the character with the most SP. Has the benefit of being less trivial to circumvent.

If you want consequences for actions on the in-game forum, then shouldn't those consequences be for actions on the in-game forum?

I've thought about it quite a bit and I feel its a fair trade-off. You still get to vote in the CSM elections, be shielded from wardecs and immune to awoxing. Those are some huge benefits player corporations have to compete with. My suggestion has newbies in mind so they get new citizens, it has the character seller in mind so they get the bazaar, it allows all players to voice their opinion on the direction of EVE hence F&I. I don't feel you should be free to come derail, troll my thread or get it locked because you don't like my corp/alliance/me and hide behind npc corporation protection as well as anonymity. You literally have no consequence for your action and there is literally no downside to you biomassing your posting alt so you can continue to do the above ad infitum. We both paid the same subscription so why should you get the preferential treatment for being in an NPC corporation?

For time's sake, I ask you the question as well, why should you get the preferential treatment for being in a PLAYER corporation?

I don't think that would solve the problem because that person could continue to hide in an npc corp and experience no consequences for their actions.

If we could perform actions on the in-game forums that would affect other people's posting I would agree with your question.

Because you risk more than me? That's your only response. It's not good enough.

The only viable option I see to your argument, is ONLY restricting access in the forum section titled:
EVE Corporations, Alliances and Organizations Center

Everything else should remain FREE ROAM for ALL players.
Besides that, get your own forums? Oh yeah, I know Goons have their own forums. With 11.5k members, I am sure that the mass of you should be able to find some good solution.

For as long as they insist on remaining docked in station. Once they undock, you gank them if it's that important to you. That's more than you would be able to do with an inactive alt that's been a member of Troll Inc. for a year.
What you're proposing is to negatively impact a person's forum posting as a consequence of being in an NPC corp.

They never log in or undock all they've done is proceed through the character creation screen.

In that case they're paying a subscription fee or buying PLEX with ISK for the sole purpose of trolling the forums. They're just taking their consequences up front. Seems a bit extreme, really. (Remember, this is in response to the idea that the character with the highest SP be locked to the forum profile)

Maybe you meant to say "Clarify for me..." on your first line, I am guessing you did mean that, so here's your clarification. There's a little thing going around called Net Neutrality. What you are requesting here, pretty much presents the same basic functions as Net Neutrality. Maybe people want to remain anonymous. Maybe they get joy out of trolling you. Maybe, that's their style of play. Maybe, oh maybe, you should request some function that used to exist other places, known as a down vote.

If a comment gets so many down votes, then it gets deleted. But hey, that would lead to the same thing that you mentioned earlier.

Maybe, I should just say HTFU and log off for the night.

Since when are the forums in-game? I am in an NPC corp, this is my main character. I pay for it and should be able to use all the benefits of a paying customer. I do log in I do undock, and there are some consequences for being in an NPC corp like not being able to hold half of null sec or any sovereignty at all. If you are worried about throw away NPC alts mucking up the forums then disallow trial accounts and characters without an active training or set an SP thresh hold. Your suggestion is like punishing a whole classroom because one or two people are acting up.

If forum trolling is against the rules, then why are you complaining?

Its a medium provided for and by the game. It also requires an active subscription to post so for all intents and purposes its part of the game. Remember I am also a paying customer so what gives you the benefit of trolling/derailing my threads without consequence? Why should you be shielded from awoxing, wardecs, and forum misbehavior for free? Player corporations are also in need of more incentives when compared to NPC corporations.

Your suggestions:

Disallow trial accounts - bad idea because this would prevent people trying the game from posting in New Citizens which could discourage them from subscribing.

Disallow characters without active training - All I have to do is set my alt to train for 1 min to make a post circumventing this restriction.

Set an SP threshold - unfairly punishes newbies.

I don't see any of those working well.

You've said it yourself, UNFAIRLY PUNISHES NEWBIES. So does the original reason you posted this topic.

I was suggesting those stipulations on the same forums you would want to restrict, but I think you are being deliberately obtuse. There are plenty of bitter vet trolls and trolls from player corporations on these forums but I guess you think they are a-ok because they are not in an NPC corp, and what this boils down to is just another get rid of NPC corps post right?

You're assuming that's the only character on the account?

I'm not assuming its locked to the highest SP character because that still allows no meaningful consequences since that character could still sit in an NPC corporation while an alt did all the meaningful stuff.

If it's an unstoppable tide, then why don't more people use the report funciton? Things are already put in place, they just have to be utilized. Why restrict the masses on the account of a few?

You should explain the context of your suggestions so there aren't misinterpretations.

Sure there are older characters in player corporations that you can meaningfully affect should you choose to. For example you could find me in highsec and try to kill me since I always have some sort of killright on me for doing bad things in highsec. You could affect the player's corporation in some way. However that NPC corporation posting alt I cannot do anything meaningful to because they do not log in or undock. Also they are completely recyclable.

It's the most developed character on the account. If they're never undocking it, again, they've paid high up-front cost to troll the forums.

"Your highest SP character is now stationbound for the rest of his life" is a meaningful consequence. It's far, far more meaningful than a war dec.

I find it odd how you so readily dismiss the consequence of spending real-world money, and yet think being a member of Shipspinner LTD is a major barrier to forum trolls.

And this is why an SP thresh hold and/or active training que would work because some one actively training an account is unlikely to use it simply to troll and recycle it, once again you are trying to punish a whole lot of people for a small sub set of peoples actions.

Trolling the forums is against the forum rules there is no pay to break rules option.

SP has far less value than many people put on it hence my alliance's success.

I think it is a major barrier because it takes :effort: which is a huge limiter in the game.

I dismiss the consequence of spending real world money because we all spend some to play the game. Its literally the equalizer between everyone we all paid something to play the game. The only privilege it gives us is the ability to log in.

The whole lot of people would be the several hundreds or thousands in NPC corporations who may like to use the forums to discuss things or interact with others that you are cutting off from large swaths of the forums because a few dozen may be trolls. If you are using a character to do above things and trolling the forums the account should be banned for the forum trolling thus precluding any sale.

Great. It's against the rules. So the people trolling get banned.

Except that's not how you've been using the term here. Sure, it's part of what you're complaining about. But what you really want is to be able to hunt down smack-talkers and make them pay. That's the whole "consequences" thing you're going after.

If people put value on SP, then it has value. Period. End of story.

I'm sorry, I had to get some Windex for my computer screen. Effort. Good one. Five minutes worth? My proposal requires commitment. That's a much bigger hurdle than finding the Smack Talk LLC recruiting thread.

Well, you can type words, I'll give you that. The next step is infusing them with logic.

"We all spend some to play the game"

Except, of course, in this case we're talking about someone spending money and, instead of playing the game, has decided it's more important to poke the hornet's nest on the forums and doesn't want any unforeseen consequences. So someone is spending money just to do that.

"Its literally the equalizer"

Have I been gone for so long that Multiboxers and PLEX traders are no longer in the game?

No, no.

The universal forum alt corpGäó would pop up.

Starting with mine here! bwahahahah!

Anyways, just wanted to touch on the particular point of people being bent on wanting to do something in-game for something said out-of-game (the forums). For people who argue that those who cry "sociopath" are just whiny and can't separate game from real life, you sure are wanting desperately to connect the game and real life.

And yet still, wanting to violence someone for merely having a different opinion on a matter such as when we discuss wardecs or Faction Warfare, taking the route to 'dec/gank the opinion holder is quite an admittance that they are right. Those that can't argue and facilitate a proper retort are the ones who then use violence in an attempt to shut someone up.

Any game and its 'forum' should rightfully be treated as different entities. Think of how petty and trifling it would be if someone began harassing you in-game for a line you posted on a youtube video related to the game in question, or in the comments section of a news site for the same game. We consider these out-of-game, outside, and IRL activities. Hardly different than posting on said game's forums. And there are those who would want to bring a meshing of game and rl? How daft.

Its a medium provided for and by the game. It also requires an active subscription to post so for all intents and purposes its part of the game. Remember I am also a paying customer so what gives you the benefit of trolling/derailing my threads without consequence? Why should you be shielded from awoxing, wardecs, and forum misbehavior for free? Player corporations are also in need of more incentives when compared to NPC corporations.

So that's what it breaks down to? 'We are CFC we are special and darn it, don't we deserve total control over the forums?' So because I am in an NPC corp I should not be able to share stuff in OOPE? There are plenty of NPC corp people that post in Intergalactic Summit and hardly any trolls, but too bad for them they are not in the CFC the largest and by right the most deserving members of the entire community? I cannot go to post in the CSM forums (yes I voted) and give my elected representatives my feed back because I am in a lowly NPC corp and not part of the blue doughnut? Really? Discriminating against any minority is looked down upon in most of the civilized world. If the trolls are not being banned the answer is to tighten enforcement not to take things away from people who are obeying the rules.

Rather than decrease player freedom, perhaps we could address the problem by increasing it.

Rather than blocking NPC corp members from posting, perhaps it would be better to allow us to ignore by corp. Thus rather than ignore TrollyMcAlt of The Scope, La Nariz would simply be able to ignore everyone in The Scope.

Then those people who find that reading NPC corp member posts decreases the utility of the forums for them can easily avoid doing so. If sufficient numbers of players agree, then the trolling opportunities would greatly decrease.

Taking a leaf from the standing system, a useful refinement could be to allow individual "forum standings" - ie have the "corp ignore" not be a seperate flag as such, but a batch job that sets the ignore flag for all members, but allows people override that on an individual basis. So when La Nariz sets The Scope to ignore, he's effectively individually ignoring every member of The Scope at once.

So then if La Lariz was impressed by the posting of a specific exceptional (or temporary) NPC corp member in the Scope, he could just uncheck the ignore flag for that member and read her posts, whilst continuing to ignore by default everyone else in The Scope

nice way to alienate new players even more.... let's make a whole new groups of second class citizens.
There are already some forum sections where they are unwelcome.. why change that more?

No the point was the NPC corporation posters when considering the forum population are not the majority as you claim they are. I'm open to adjusting which forums should be available if you can justify why that should be allowed.

Please point out where I said majority I said several hundreds or thousands, I am unsure of the exact number. Spin doctoring is bad.

The whole lot of people would be the several hundreds or thousands in NPC corporations who may like to use the forums to discuss things or interact with others that you are cutting off from large swaths of the forums because a few dozen may be trolls. If you are using a character to do above things and trolling the forums the account should be banned for the forum trolling thus precluding any sale.

So that's what it breaks down to? 'We are CFC we are special and darn it, don't we deserve total control over the forums?' So because I am in an NPC corp I should not be able to share stuff in OOPE? There are plenty of NPC corp people that post in Intergalactic Summit and hardly any trolls, but too bad for them they are not in the CFC the largest and by right the most deserving members of the entire community? I cannot go to post in the CSM forums (yes I voted) and give my elected representatives my feed back because I am in a lowly NPC corp and not part of the blue doughnut? Really? Discriminating against any minority is looked down upon in most of the civilized world. If the trolls are not being banned the answer is to tighten enforcement not to take things away from people who are obeying the rules.

Implied majority.



Goonspiracy.

So yes I am implying that you implied NPC corporation members are the majority considering the context if that's not the case you should be more clear.

Like I said before if you think something should be available I'm open to your ideas as long as you justify them.

E: I like the idea of tightening enforcement and have suggested it before but, I do not think its possible otherwise CCP would have done it already.

Several hundreds or perhaps a few thousand implies a majority in a game with what 500,000 subscriptions? Please. As for 'goonspiracy' look at your own post where you state that being in the CFC and your like makes you the 'majority'. Your posts are coming across as entitled because of your affiliations.

-Except they don't get banned the same alts are still there to this day.

-SP doesn't have the value you claim it does.

-:Effort: is a big deal why do you think afktars are popular right now?

-Once again there is no spend money to break forum rules option. Why do you think paying for a subscription entitles the person to violate forum rulles/TOS/EULA?

-Multiboxing that person has paid extra for the privelege of logging an extra account in. PLEX you pay your subscription with someone else' money.

I justified why we would be a larger forum presence than NPC corporation members if you disagree with this you need to state why. Any goonspiracy is prejudice on your own part.

They never log in or undock all they've done is proceed through the character creation screen. .

So these people are so terrible bad no good that it warrants CCP quarantining every. single. NPC. corp. character. And yet they aren't so terrible bad no good for the moderators/CCP to rouse themselves to ban any of them individually. Do you see why I question your logic?

It doesn't have the value of a shell corporation? Really?

Effort. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Where have I said that? I never said CCP should be forbidden from permabanning someone who pays a subscription. We're not talking TOS/EULA violations here. We're talking about someone saying something on the forums that makes you want to hunt them down in game, but you're being blue balled by them using an alt. And for that, you want to ban all NPC corp characters from posting.

And how, exactly, does PLEX let you do that? Think a little. It will come to you.

-In that case they're paying a subscription fee or buying PLEX with ISK for the sole purpose of trolling the forums.

-I find it odd how you so readily dismiss the consequence of spending real-world money, and yet think being a member of Shipspinner LTD is a major barrier to forum trolls.

-Except, of course, in this case we're talking about someone spending money and, instead of playing the game, has decided it's more important to poke the hornet's nest on the forums and doesn't want any unforeseen consequences.

I am not prejudiced against the CFC, but your posts make it seem you are entitled to superior treatment because you are a member of CFC/or insert big alliance name here. Nowhere did I state NPC members were a larger forum presence, this is your very own straw man. In fact I stated that your suggestion discriminated against a minority. So why not focus on strengthening penalties for trolls? Why the arrows for NPC corps?

While this entire thread is a total troll this is a blatant lie and you know it.
There are loads of NPC corp players who post regularly on the forums who undock and fly around constantly.
They are in an NPC corp because they enjoy the atmosphere since some of the NPC corps actually have a very strong social grouping & interactions. Don't want to deal with extremely poor mechanics that were implemented to allow corps to internally test fits that are no longer required with later changes to the game but have been left to placate a vocal few. And are still at risk, you can still kill them if you don't like what they say.

As for risk/reward. Again, not every single tiny little thing needs to be better for higher risk. You already have numerous benefits for the risks you take being in a player corp that the NPC corp members do not have. So that's a laughable argument. Especially since if we extend your argument, then scammers should be banned since they are alts and never undock. So face no risk so should get no reward. As should margin trading scammers. Oh, and as should anyone hotdropping cap fleets on tiny subcap roams since they also face no risk. As should blobs...... We can extend that 'no risk' argument a long long way.

EVE is a decade old sandbox. There are some established super-powers with vested interests in the game. Suggesting any changes to the game could have the effect of either benefit, damage or neutral to them. I don't troll the forum, but I still want some indentity protection from any part of my opinions that would be considered irritating by these super-powers.

I just created this forum alt to post this message and I will delete this alt now. If NPC alt is really not allowed to post, I will use an alt in a shell company and delete them right away whenever I want to say something in the forum to protect myself.

Hurling accusation would be trolling back. Fine, some goons are trollers, some players in npc corps are trollers. With that same logic lets limit both with a blanked ban to posting. Using in game intimidation like wardecs support the idea that you want to limit the ideas on an "idea" forum which limits thought so in turn you are hurtful to the game. Feel free to ban yourself for your rants.

Using in game intimidation like wardecs support the idea that you want to limit the ideas on an "idea" forum which limits thought so in turn you are hurtful to the game.

In particular, I wouldn't mind seeing something such as a requirement to be in an npc corporation to start a thread in the Character Bazaar.

You've said repeatedly things skirting the lines of "that person paid a subscription so they are allowed the privilege of trolling the forums."

Yes I'm advocating for NPC corporation members having to pay something for the wonderful immunity they are granted...

Believe it or not :effort: is a pretty good limiter to things.

there are absolutely no downsides whatsoever to being in an NPC corp.

Do you know what effort is? Because you seem to be under the impression that effort is involved in joining a corp. Actually, you seem to be under the impression that it takes more effort to join a corp than it does to create and maintain a high SP main on an alternate account.

Nope. Spammers are an issue but there are other reasons to post on an NPC corp alt. For example, you might just like the individual playstyle or want to avoid wardecs, and then you're discriminating against players because of how they play the game. Also, given the nature of these forums an NPC alt can help avoid bounties, in-game harassment, and wardecs against your corp because someone's feelings got hurt.

As suggested earlier creating threads on the Character Bazaar should definitely be limited to NPC players. I suspect a lot of the time people are unaware of that rule and it just creates unnecessary confusion & workload for the ISDs. It might also alert people when accounts are in the process of being hacked/liquidated if they have to drop corp to post there. I spotted a couple of friends accounts being hacked only because they quit corp with no warning and listed their characters, so was able to report the characters before they sold.

I'm not sure CAOD is a good example of a success story in terms of removing NPC alt posting ability improving the forums. At the time all it did was drive massive numbers onto Kugu and SHC/FHC, and in all honesty I think overall forum traffic has been dimished here since. It drove away a lot of the good posters along with the bad. The content might be improved in CAOD now, but no discussions of relevance take place there anymore. A lot of 'this is now a WiDot thread' spam for months destroyed CAOD more effectively than the badposting NPC alts, and despite being in targetable alliances there was no real consequence for the people who did that other than cementing their reputation as shitposters.

Bear in mind how many corps and alliances have strict posting policies forcing people to use alts - if they are alt posting, it's not always because they are masking their identity out of choice. The trolls you are targeting are the most likely to just bypass this mechanic because they are probably using disposable alts anyway. I seem to remember Pimperian or w/e just setting up an alliance to get around the new CAOD ruling. Those least likely to want to leave NPC corps (maybe they have friends there - it's not as unsociable as everyone claims), newer players, or people just inbetween corps would most likely be hurt by implementing this. Forcing people into 1-man or even small corps with their alts just to post might create more problems. Either they'll use alts rather than mains, and then don't give a damn what they say because it doesn't tie back to them. Or they create badposting corps and alliances to bypass retribution where the players don't even log in. In terms of getting players out of NPC corps and into bigger groups, forcing anyone into a 1 man corp actually restricts their interraction so severely it might accelerate people cycling out of game.

+1 for being able to block whole corps/alliances, and for being able to create exceptions. Things might be a lot less grrr-tinfoil if people could just block the whole of goonswarm - although I suspect they enjoy their outrage too much for that.

[quote=Komi Toran]You are the one that continually brings up subscription = trolling rights, stop bringing it up and I can stop referencing forum rules/ELUA/TOS. It's pretty circular:

You: "Paying a subscription entitles people to do rule breaking things."

Me: "No that's against the forum rules/TOS/ELUA."

ad infinitum

How about you stop lying and misrepresenting what I'm saying, and I can stop correcting your mendacity? That sounds like a better idea to me.

How about you stop lying and misrepresenting what I'm saying, and I can stop correcting your mendacity? That sounds like a better idea to me.

Over the years I have grown to hate NPC Corps and consider them a blight in our game.

To me a NPC corp should be a temporary place for a character to live whilst changing corps / selling a character / or if you plan on taking a break from Eve but do not want to stop your subscription.

I would love nothing more then NPC Characters not being able to make posts on the forum unless you are selling your character.

I would love nothing more if NPC Characters could not pick up say level 2+ missions.

I would love it if NPC characters took a huge hit in terms of cost / efficiency /refinery etc in regards to Industry and Market Jobs.

At some point CCP really need to take a good long hard look at NPC Corps because I am damn sure they did not want them to be used as they are today.

A down side to that is that if you then don't find a buyer you've had to add a couple of extra lines to your employment history for no reason. Maybe that's no big deal, but what if you then try and sell the character a few months later, again without success? Also, the main character on each of my accounts is a corp director. Were I to sell any of them I'd want to be able to make use of their roles until I agreed a sale.

To sell a character on the character bazaar, you must first be in an npc corporation. Otherwise, the thread is closed and we tell you why it was closed. If people could only post there with a character already in an npc corporation, it saves a step in the process and cuts down on threads that need to be closed. We don't like closing threads, but it's the rules.

-It provides consequences/content for actions by exposing posters to war declarations should their posts be deemed unpalatable by other players,

ITT: Goonswarm complaining about meta.

To sell a character on the character bazaar, you must first be in an npc corporation. Otherwise, the thread is closed and we tell you why it was closed. If people could only post there with a character already in an npc corporation, it saves a step in the process and cuts down on threads that need to be closed. We don't like closing threads, but it's the rules.

ITT: Goonswarm complaining about meta.

Over the years I have grown to hate NPC Corps and consider them a blight in our game.

To me a NPC corp should be a temporary place for a character to live whilst changing corps / selling a character / or if you plan on taking a break from Eve but do not want to stop your subscription.

I would love nothing more then NPC Characters not being able to make posts on the forum unless you are selling your character.

I would love nothing more if NPC Characters could not pick up say level 2+ missions.

I would love it if NPC characters took a huge hit in terms of cost / efficiency /refinery etc in regards to Industry and Market Jobs.

At some point CCP really need to take a good long hard look at NPC Corps because I am damn sure they did not want them to be used as they are today.

How would I express interest in purchasing a character if I can't post in there without being in an NPC corp?

I believe this proposal to be wrong but I have trouble putting my finger on exactly where. Maybe the closest thing is related to:



This brings the question: are you entitled to retaliate against anyone you don't like?

Please don't start with choices and consequences mantra. There are lots of actions in EVE universe which bear no consequences worth talking about. Some because of technical limitations, some because it's practically unfeasible (So, of course I can wardec CFC because I don't like this thread, right? I can imagine all you guys laughing your asses off. Now, THAT's a consequence...).

If the quality of posts/threads is an actual problem either TOS/EULA should be updated or you should take a cup of HTFU all vets tend to offer anyone else around.

And yet there isn't a single justifiable reason for any of these restrictions. Which actually demonstrates why restricting posting abilities in the greater forums from any specific group is a bad idea. One persons poor understanding of a play decision or their "feelings" about certain players in no way provides any sort of good reasoning for restricting access to the Devs or community.

To sell a character on the character bazaar, you must first be in an npc corporation. Otherwise, the thread is closed and we tell you why it was closed. If people could only post there with a character already in an npc corporation, it saves a step in the process and cuts down on threads that need to be closed. We don't like closing threads, but it's the rules.

You're asking for me to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the peanut butter, choices and consequences are part of the driving features of the game.

To answer your question, yes I am if I'm willing to make the choice to do so and handle the consequences for my actions. This all assumes following the TOS/EULA/forum rules.

Yep that's exactly what you can do, you can war dec the entire CFC and attempt to bring about a consequence for my posting.

Delaying new characters from posting outside of various forums and funneling them into New Citizens might not be a bad thing - it saves us answering questions we've seen a squillion times before, and it saves them having their head ripped off for making an innocently foolish remark/query/request or observation.

I'm not suggesting new players should be marginalised so the vets can disregard or stomp them, tbh I think they should be protected from the baddies and eased in more carefully. Perhaps new players need their own subforums, with gradual interraction with the wider playerbase. I've often wondered why the really obnoxious players aren't gagged when they openly smack new players who really don't deserve it a lot of the time. They should definitely be allowed to post on OOPE though, I think it's the only subforum I've ever seen dedicated to banter with residents worth bantering with.

The principle of "your action have consequence" was sent into the trash can the very moment someone found out they could use alt to "protect" their main. You yourself said you were using this game play "feature" by creating awoxing alt and turning them into sellable character when they get too hot. What's the consequence of awoxing if you can get rid of the characer and then create a new one and start over with a blank rapsheet?

This drive em to the point that there is no need to enforce what you propose in this thread because it is not enforced even in the game itself. When the game stop having loopholes to dodge consequence, then it might become relevant to enforce the same thing on the forum.

Isn't this game about specialization. We have scout alts, PI alts, FW alts, mining alts, market alts, etc. This is a whole character slot taken up for forum purposes that I could have been using for other purposes.

Also, thinking more on the daft mantra of bringing 'consequences for actions' on the forums, I am less inclined to believe it is about consequences, and more about opening up a whole new forum related meta. A very ugly and terrible wave of silencing and censorship.

If something was done to bring forced mains to the forums, the forums would quickly devolve into nothing but preaching to the choir as only powerblocs, large pirate alliances, and the merc alliances would be heard. For example, dissenting opinions on any wardec threads would be hunted in-game and put under fairly certain long-term wardec by those already in power and force until they stopped posting on the forums. Don't make any illusions that it wouldn't happen. This is Eve we're talking about here.

The only thing that should be expanded upon for cleaning up the very few trolls around are ISD options. What are current rules anyhow for dealing with them? If a character/account is banned from the forums, is it currently also banned from game? If not, then that should be looked at. Along with a much quicker escalation from warning/infractions/bans to a full outright permaban. Troll forums, lose the entire account, including the high SP main.
That's consequence, and a real deterrent from trolling. However it is not a deterrent to differing opinion, which some here are actually proposing under guise of "cleaning up the forums"

Consequence for action?
Forced mains would just lead to consequence for differing perspectives.
Player-on-player silencing and censorship would be the newest meta.

What's the consequence of awoxing if you can get rid of the characer and then create a new one and start over with a blank rapsheet?

I don't see this slippery slope of "silencing and censorship" occurring in CAOD where my suggestion is already in place. My suggestion specifically accommodates for your doomsday scenario you presented.

I don't see this slippery slope of "silencing and censorship" occurring in CAOD where my suggestion is already in place. My suggestion specifically accommodates for your doomsday scenario you presented.

Possibly because a larger deal of participants there are already involved with large enough entities for protection.
And the other matter is that in there, there isn't very much talk about new features or balancing, in which all voices and perspectives should be represented. The theme in there are the politics to begin with, not balancing and mechanics.

As previously touched upon, I believe we should first lay out and clarify what exactly are all the tools and powers available to ISD. Then we can figure out where it is lacking and could be improved on. It is why they're here. To clean up the trolls and derailments. It's their job to enforce consequence for trolling, not ours.

CAOD had a reason to have those rules enforced because of what the forum is supposed to be about. Character bazar also already have restriction because of the goal of that sub forum. Cleaning GD for example won't be done by preventing people from posting unless they satisfy condition X. It will be cleaned when the god damn moderation is worth anything. Getting a post deleted because it was a troll is stupid. Let the ban hammer and the kicking boot fly with account wide suspension and you will see the troll have consequence for their trolling without having to put any limitation on legitimate players from posting.

Get rid of the trolls completely instead of just putting a stupid barrier in front of them which they can easily jump over.

Your suggestion would be skirted around by people creating the character "Troller McBadpoast" and parking him in the corp "forum shitter inc". His signature will even read "Feel free to dec our shitpoasting corp."

The ISD have said before they don't ban but beyond that I have no idea.

Its because it hasn't happened I've watched CAOD for a long time your gloom and doom scenario has no precedence. The ISD have said before they don't ban but beyond that I have no idea.

Bolded for emphasis, on the fact that is what may need to be looked at and changed then.
I would hope you would agree, that it truly is a moderating entity's job and position to enforce, clean, and provide consequence for bad/troll posting, rather than ours.

Its a meaningful :effort: barrier like I said CAOD quality improved once that change was put in effect there is precedent for it working. If you have a better idea feel free to share it with us.

~Stuff about Character Bazaar rules and their enforcement~

Harsher account wide moderation. Don't probate/ban the toon but do it on the account level. The stupid people will either be gone or have to PLEX more and more account to keep trolling.

The current moderation is bad because the ISD have no efficient tools and the enforcement of the rules is never harsh. Even thread created by CCP in F/I can loose pages after pages of post because people were shitting them up and you still see the same stuff posted over and over again. Why aren't those poster just gone?

@ISDs : To be clear, I am not saying you are not doing your job, I am saying your mandate and powers are not correct for the actual cleaning to happen.

Harsher account wide moderation. Don't probate/ban the toon but do it on the account level. The stupid people will either be gone or have to PLEX more and more account to keep trolling.

The current moderation is bad because the ISD have no efficient tools and the enforcement of the rules is never harsh. Even thread created by CCP in F/I can loose pages after pages of post because people were shitting them up and you still see the same stuff posted over and over again. Why aren't those poster just gone?

@ISDs : To be clear, I am not saying you are not doing your job, I am saying your mandate and powers are not correct for the actual cleaning to happen.

There is something in the works to completely overhaul character sales. I am being vague because I have no details, but rest assured, the ad-hoc Character Bazaar has its days numbered.



Banning and account-wide actions are completely out of ISD territory. Here is what we as ISD can do:

• Lock/unlock threads
• Edit posts that only partially break the rules
• Delete posts that entirely break the rules
• Delete threads that are so bad even the memory of them has no value (e.g. RMT ads, botting guides)
• Be helpful, spread awareness of the rules, and support constructive discussion
• Contact CCP for everything else

Tools to track repeat offenders are poor/nonexistent, so banning mostly comes from one ISD thinking "huh, I've seen a lot of crap from this one poster" or "wow, that is spectacularly awful on a new level", pointing it out to the CCP Community Team, then the Community Team acting on it as appropriate (and as detailed in the "Reprimand Policy" section of the forum rules).

Basically everything is managed by hand, and the hands are few and working based on very limited information. If you would like to help, please make reports of rule-breaking as detailed as possible. Letting us know via a report that someone is being a recurring problem makes it much more likely someone will look into the problem poster.

Oh, and quick note: URLs in reports are bad. All the text in a report after a "?" is truncated for some reason, so all we ever see is "https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx", which is not useful at all.

My suggestion doesn't restrict access to devs or the community I specifically leave F&I, recruitment, new citizens and bazaar open. It does not prevent the ability to read threads or send eve-mail either so there is still participation in the community.

The only really decent idea that has been posted in this thread was posted by Malcanis. Otherwise it is simply another attempt to nerf NPC corps/hisec. The original poster has already made it clear that he is not so much interested in actually reducing trolling but instead giving him and and his like free access to the forums while locking out those who are not in the 'In Club". Sorry guys if you cannot blob and spam F1 you have not invested enough time in the game and your efforts are meaningless because of the superhuman efforts it takes to be a member of a large alliance.

Are there certain things we can do to make the report easier to process?

You're asking for me to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the peanut butter, choices and consequences are part of the driving features of the game.

To answer your question, yes I am if I'm willing to make the choice to do so and handle the consequences for my actions. This all assumes following the TOS/EULA/forum rules.

Personally, I'm not joining a corp to have a discussion about a ship fit or about a market tactic. I'm not going to have my in game decisions held hostage over my ability to discuss certain topics. All it means is that a new character with no actual gameplay will be born, a character with no means of being held accountable for their words. This is not that character, this character actually logs in and flies ships, that one will not and will be purely immune from any backlash it's words will bring.

Then, alternative comes from by automatically choosing the most skilled character from your account to post. If you're too afraid to post your ideas from your main character, don't post. That's it.

What I've seen so far is, those are not new players trolling the most. Those are the skilled players, hiding behind their recently created alts who are trolling. If forums choose your most skilled character for you to post, everybody would think twice before talking.

Not sure if it would solve the problem. One can always create an account just for trolling. Those oldest and most skilled players could surely afford an extra PLEX from time to time.

Does no-one else see the risk that we create forums under the rule of "might is right". I can already see EvE mails flying around threatening war if things are disagreed with.

Does no-one else see the risk that we create forums under the rule of "might is right". I can already see EvE mails flying around threatening war if things are disagreed with.

Furthermore, it grants people living in non-high sec a louder, more fearless voice - perhaps the intention but people shouldn't be marginalized for where they live. One of my characters lives in null - ask me how little of a crap I give about the threat of war.

Utter rubbish.

Do you think a large null sec entity is going to go to war with a few guys in a HS corp because they posted something they did not agree with on the forums

Seriously?

You know, so what if they did? If a entity such as goons war decc'ed a small HS Corp for the sole reason they dared to disagree with them on a forum post they would be laugh at, scorned, mocked and generally have the **** taken out of them forever and a day.

On top of that it would just mean everybody and their dog would be able to jump on the side of the HS corp as allies.

The simple fact is NPC corps do not advance / help / progress this game in any way shape or form.

If anything they NPC corp detract from the game, they make the game worse.

La Nariz stated explicitly that he/they want to be able to retaliate in game against anyone who posted on forums anything they didn't like.

And if it's not about retaliation then what is the problem with NPC alts posting?

La Nariz stated explicitly that he/they want to be able to retaliate in game against anyone who posted on forums anything they didn't like.

And if it's not about retaliation then what is the problem with NPC alts posting?

Utter rubbish.

Do you think a large null sec entity is going to go to war with a few guys in a HS corp because they posted something they did not agree with on the forums

Seriously?

You know, so what if they did? If a entity such as goons war decc'ed a small HS Corp for the sole reason they dared to disagree with them on a forum post they would be laugh at, scorned, mocked and generally have the **** taken out of them forever and a day.

On top of that it would just mean everybody and their dog would be able to jump on the side of the HS corp as allies.

The simple fact is NPC corps do not advance / help / progress this game in any way shape or form.

If anything they NPC corp detract from the game, they make the game worse.

So then what's the point of this idea again then? You've posted a paradox.

"Ban npc posters because we can't retaliate in game towards them"
"We're not going to retaliate"

Pick one, they are mutually exclusive.


Might is right in game only, it has little place on an out of game forum where things such as balance etc are debated.

It's just a forum, sticks and stones and all that.

There is something in the works to completely overhaul character sales. I am being vague because I have no details, but rest assured, the ad-hoc Character Bazaar has its days numbered.

Banning and account-wide actions are completely out of ISD territory.

Basically everything is managed by hand, and the hands are few and working based on very limited information. If you would like to help, please make reports of rule-breaking as detailed as possible. Letting us know via a report that someone is being a recurring problem makes it much more likely someone will look into the problem poster.

Oh, and quick note: URLs in reports are bad. All the text in a report after a "?" is truncated for some reason, so all we ever see is "https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx", which is not useful at all.

Anything that promotes player driven content is a good thing and NPC Corps do not do this, if anything they go against player driven content.

You or anybody else who supports NPC Corps has yet to given any good reason how they promote anything good for the game

The idea is for *anyone* to be able to retaliate, not just a handful of people.

It's also worth noting (for the benefit of the "OMG, not whant consequences" crowd) that Doomsdale Little has exactly 1 loss this year, and that was only an MTU. Given the amount of nonsense he spews all over the forum, together with the fact that he's not in an NPC corp (and therefore wouldn't be prevented from posting under the proposed change), we'd hardly be likely to see a massive increase in people being exploded for stupid posts.

Yes, I know 1 example is statistically insignificant. OTOH, he's probably manages to raise the average number of shiptoasts:person quite a bit all on his own.

The only really decent idea that has been posted in this thread was posted by Malcanis. Otherwise it is simply another attempt to nerf NPC corps/hisec. The original poster has already made it clear that he is not so much interested in actually reducing trolling but instead giving him and and his like free access to the forums while locking out those who are not in the 'In Club". Sorry guys if you cannot blob and spam F1 you have not invested enough time in the game and your efforts are meaningless because of the superhuman efforts it takes to be a member of a large alliance.

No, I didn't ask you to make any kind of sandwich. I can make my own, thank you.

I asked not to use choices and consequences cliche because it's a bullshit. And it's a bullshit because at certain level choices and consequences are driving features of EVERY game, tic-tac-toe, WoW or HKO included, while on another level there are no meaningful consequences of some choices present in EVE Online. Or prove me wrong and tell me please what was the worst, to you, thing a single individual or a small corp did to CFC?

Sorry, this wasn't my question. My question was if you feel entitled to be able to put your wrath on anyone playing EVE? This question is about if anyone with enough power, however measured, should be able to effectively silence those who do not agree with them?

These questions border with right to anonymity and freedom of speech.

Anonymity is what you already enjoy. Apart from your character's name and fancy avatar there's nothing I know about you. CCP knows your email and if you buy PLEX for ISK and didn't run for CSM then the story end here. And it's for very good reasons.

And yet you want to deny similar level of protection within a game? How quaint.

With freedom of speech there goes right not to listen. You can choose not to read posts/threads/forums you don't like. And personal ignore list is nice tool helping with that.

On the other hand, ISD/CCP have judgement and executive power to keep discussions as clean as possible. With your proposal you want to have part of this power. Even if it turned out it doesn't hurt the game as a whole it is still something I don't like. And do not support.

Restriction and prevention are not the same thing, but they are both negative. There is no reason any rule biding player should not have access to communicate with the community or CCP with the same means another rule biding player has save for positions like the CSM where they confide information which they are not yet prepared to share with all users.

There is also no reason to segregate discussion regarding the game with our peers. CCP has on many occasions stated that they look at the forums even without solicitation of feedback or direct response. As such, unless this practice has been stopped, it is further restrictive of the interaction capacity for any individual without full board access.

Furthermore this saddles upon ISD the responsibility of vetting all manner of the inevitable off topic posts that all the affected players would have to use a small subset of forums to discuss subjects which will frequently fall outside of those forum subsections.

Personally, I'm not joining a corp to have a discussion about a ship fit or about a market tactic. I'm not going to have my in game decisions held hostage over my ability to discuss certain topics. All it means is that a new character with no actual gameplay will be born, a character with no means of being held accountable for their words. This is not that character, this character actually logs in and flies ships, that one will not and will be purely immune from any backlash it's words will bring.

If you want clean environment by banning, there must be an alternative available. I'm against "preventing". But rather, I would choose autonomy.

First of all, in terms of forum policy, player anonimity is a must, but not character anonimity. If I'm mistaken, please cite the terms conflicting with this knowledge.
Then, alternative comes from by automatically choosing the most skilled character from your account to post. If you're too afraid to post your ideas from your main character, don't post. That's it.

What I've seen so far is, those are not new players trolling the most. Those are the skilled players, hiding behind their recently created alts who are trolling. If forums choose your most skilled character for you to post, everybody would think twice before talking.

Does no-one else see the risk that we create forums under the rule of "might is right". I can already see EvE mails flying around threatening war if things are disagreed with.

Furthermore, it grants people living in non-high sec a louder, more fearless voice - perhaps the intention but people shouldn't be marginalized for where they live. One of my characters lives in null - ask me how little of a crap I give about the threat of war.

La Nariz stated explicitly that he/they want to be able to retaliate in game against anyone who posted on forums anything they didn't like.

And if it's not about retaliation then what is the problem with NPC alts posting?

So then what's the point of this idea again then? You've posted a paradox.

"Ban npc posters because we can't retaliate in game towards them"
"We're not going to retaliate"

Pick one, they are mutually exclusive.


Might is right in game only, it has little place on an out of game forum where things such as balance etc are debated.

It's just a forum, sticks and stones and all that.

It is quite obvious this is just another typical Goon thread asking for something that specifically benefits them. Sorry Goons, isn't owning far more space than you can logically defend enough? Do you really need everything?

-1, NPC posters are important, mainly due to the aggressive nature of large blocs which will go after those who disagree with them.

Consider that this change encompasses more than the CFC and evil goons. Take off the goonspiracy goggles and look at the whole change in the context of literally everyone in EVE then get back to us.

I think I've got everyone if you didn't get a reply from me and want one quote this sentence and repost.

It is quite obvious this is just another typical Goon thread asking for something that specifically benefits them. Sorry Goons, isn't owning far more space than you can logically defend enough? Do you really need everything?

-1, NPC posters are important, mainly due to the aggressive nature of large blocs which will go after those who disagree with them.

It is quite obvious this is just another typical Goon thread asking for something that specifically benefits them. Sorry Goons, isn't owning far more space than you can logically defend enough? Do you really need everything?

-1, NPC posters are important, mainly due to the aggressive nature of large blocs which will go after those who disagree with them.

I get the whole trolling thing, but that can be addressed in better ways as it's something of a seperate issue. That said, a lot of people seem to confuse "trolling" with "disagreeing".

Rephrase that to:

"La Nariz stated explicity that he wants ANYONE to be able to retaliate in game against anyone who posted something they found unpalatable on the forums."

I think you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said to support your own fallacies.

That's part of the sandbox, I'm allowed to do what I like within the rules of the game so if I decide I don't like what you're saying I can go ahead and do as I like in retribution.

Much like reddit you don't understand that freedom of speech is not freedom from the consequences of that speech. This idea also has nothing to do with RL identities.

The CFC and whatever conspiracies/anger you have towards us has no bearing on this thread or any of the ideas I'm going to politely ask you once to justify whatever reason you have against the idea so we can discuss it.

This idea is really no different from responding to someone saying something in local that you do not like. For example person A says "all miners are terrible" in local. Person B a member of a mining corporation fits out a destroyer and uses his locator to find this person. Then person B waits until that person is floating along in a pod and pods them. Consequences for actions and improving the forum quality all coupled in one compact idea.

They're not confusing any terms. They're confusing about who are you. Make the forums choose your most skilled character, and we will not be talking with a shady picture and some name including "alt" and "afk". You will have to pay an upkeep for it! With your paid upkeep and your beautiful haired main man/woman talking, will you be able to disagree as easy as you did? Try it, believe me, it will be enjoying.

Rephrase that to:

"La Nariz stated explicity that he wants ANYONE to be able to retaliate in game against anyone who posted something they found unpalatable on the forums."

I think you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said to support your own fallacies.

Why join a corp, create a your corp for your own characters.

Why do you feel the need to hide in a NPC Corp?

There is a reason for restriction its because NPC alts are continually being used for trolling and derailing threads to the point they are locked. They are deliberately decreasing the quality of the forums and hence the community. There is evidence that this approach can work because CAOD quality increased when this occurred. I think the :effort: wall is high enough so if you decide to circumvent it go right ahead.

Calling it hiding is unnecessarily pejorative. Consider that it provides no protection from any aggressive action taken against me save for the one that provides 24 hours warning anyways, nor has any affect at all in encounters likely to happen outside of highsec. I'm still searchable from locators. My ships blow up the same as yours.

But to the question of why I'm there, payers corps as they currently exist provide little tangible benefit for a solo player. NPC corps on the other hand provide wardec immunity. While this feature exists at the center of great debate regarding it's appropriateness, so long as it does exist it provides utility greater than my sum defensive capacity against a wardec. Also considering that game mechanics provide me no reason to actually fight I'd either log off or in the case of a persisting dec or decs, just end up dodging back to NPC to begin with, as such staying there cuts out the middle man.

It's just a logical move in a game that rewards logical moves.

No it doesn't because you can chose to war dec my corp thus giving you the option to shoot me if I travel in HS. I can not do the same to you. For me to shoot you if I am in HS I will lose my ship no matter what.

So lets say I chose to come after you for what ever reason all you have to do is retreat to HS and there will next to nothing I can do other then lose ship after ship.



This why I would go further then what has been suggested and remove a lot of what is possible whilst being in a NPC Corp. I would remove the ability to run mission above a certain level, I would hit refining so that for example you could only ever get say 85%. I would increase S&I costs to say 25%, I would basically hit NPC's Corps so hard that if you chose to stay you will pay a very heavy price.

What you have described in my eyes only detracts from the game and does not improve it in anyway shape or form. Thank you for giving an example on why NPC corps are bad for this game.

This why I would go further then what has been suggested and remove a lot of what is possible whilst being in a NPC Corp. I would remove the ability to run mission above a certain level, I would hit refining so that for example you could only ever get say 85%. I would increase S&I costs to say 25%, I would basically hit NPC's Corps so hard that if you chose to stay you will pay a very heavy price.

I'm okay with sandbox and playing within rules. The same rules allow existence of alts and give them full rights.

In my opinion it does have to do with RL identities. As much as you want choices made in game to have consequences stay within game, similarly choices on forums should have consequences on forums. This is very important. Forums and the game itself are governed by different rules. It's widely accepted that the game is not RL. By the same token forums are not a game.

I have no personal qualms with CFC in general nor with Goons in particular. I had no direct in game interactions with neither of you and it's my intention for it to stay this way. However it is my understanding that you market yourselves as evil guys of EVE so when you propose something you have to forgive my skepticism, that I don't readily trust it's good for whole player base, me included, not just for Goons.

Lastly, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced there will be working here something which for lack of better terms let's call Reverse Malcanis Law: any technical measure intended to police some player behaviour will affect only new and inexperienced players while old and experienced will find a way around it. Trolling will not be stopped, trolls will find ways to do their work. Instead this will become political censoring tool. If this is what you're about, have balls to honestly admit it.

It's all cool that you might be thinking exactly in the way you phrased it but it does not remove the fact that you could still do exactly what the first phrasing was. ISD and anyone participating in the moderation not having the right tools to do the moderation is the core issue of the problem. They are forum janitor cleaning the mess people always create but have no clear way to get the individuals out of the place for good.

Even recently, when Falcon's topic about what was happening with the monument clearly mentioned personal attack against DEVs would be dealt harshly, all we saw is post after post from ISDs saying they had to clean the thread for the Xth time and to pay attention to the statement Falcon had said about personal attacks being not accepted.

"Don't do this again or I will have to edit'delete your post."

This will totally stop people from trolling/shitpoasting right?

Give ISDs the tool and power to start cleaning this cesspit for good and the quality will improve.

Aside from the increased cost in game associated with creating a corp the distinction between creating a character and creating a character and putting them in a trash corp is minimal to the point that I believe anyone with the intent of obfuscating or interfering with legitimate discussion will likely do so.

This is further evidenced by the fact that the characters you are trying to avoid created posting alts in the first place. We basically have a clear precedent with alt posters that anonymity is worth effort. Even further, some of the more trollish elements of the community are already in player corps, so it is reasonable to conclude that many others are not simply because that effort isn't mandated.

Somehow your statement reminds me famous Catbert quote: layoffs will continue until morale improves.

If you think you can force people into your favourite sort of activities you are as much fool as who thinks he can prevent anyone from doing them. If you want more players taking part in so called content creation, start by showing them that those who do are not douchebags wanting to drive into oblivion those who don't.

I would like to add a thought on this matter.

In the event that NPC corp character posting ability is curtailed, can we make sure that does not apply to characters in a faction warfare NPC corporation?

They're a bit of a special case, imo.

I take it this is because we can shoot them if we join the opposing FW and they effectively block off half of highsec?

You're making a strawman of this no one is trying to force anyone into anything.

That's your opinion now what is the explanation of how this will involve RL identities and bring about deleterious RL consequences? What is the justification for that explanation?

I specifically accounted for confused newbies by suggesting that new citizens remain free roam and that when visiting the forums they are first shunted to new citizens to make finding resources/answers easier for them. Do you have a reason and justification for why this isn't enough?

I only deal with recruitment not politics this suggestion is because I would like to see forum quality increase.

Not strawman, off-topic. This was my, knee-jerk I admit, reaction to an assumption that making life of players in NPC corps unbearable enough will make them resign and in turn adopt some desired play style.

I thought I was clear enough. Let's make it point by point:
1. RL actions used to have RL consequences.
2. In game actions should have consequences only in game.
3. On forum actions should have on forum consequences.
4. Mixing above yields bad or hilarious results, depending on combination.
5. You want to be guaranteed that you can incur in game consequences for on forum actions. This is what I object against.

That you personally don't deal with politics does not mean nobody else does. And your original proposal to me is exactly it, a political tool.

If you want to increase forum quality, address and solve the problem at forum level. Ignore list is one example of such solution, punitive harassment of player(s) in game is not.

I have reservations about this idea.

Mainly because one career path - AWOXing - results in people taking part in it spending a good deal of time in NPC corps. And lots of AWOXers are good forum posters.

There's definitely workarounds possible but they will cause ridiculous bloat in employment histories (if you want to see why this is a bad thing, fly to a safe spot, then load Psychotic Monk's corp history, and see how long it is until you can act again in-game).

Not to long ago there was a post in general discussion discussing how to improve forum quality. Several ideas were brainstormed such as removing general discussion, giving ISD more tools, providing harsher punishments for forum rule breaking, etc. Those all have some merit but, I feel the best way to improve the quality of the forums is:

Restricting NPC corporation members to EVE New Citizen's Q&A, Features & Ideas Discussion, Character Bazaar and Alliance & Corporation Recruitment Center.

There has already been a precedent set for this idea by CAOD; in CAOD NPC alts cannot post and the quality of that forum is significantly better than other forums albeit slower.

Enacting this change would:

-Increase the quality of the forums because NPC corporation posters are notoriously know for being devoted to being troll alts,

-It is easily circumvented by players that wish to have a solo experience in EVE and wish to post via one man corporations,

-It provides consequences/content for actions by exposing posters to war declarations should their posts be deemed unpalatable by other players,

-Potentially decrease ISD/Community Manager workloads,

-Leave newbies unaffected as they can still post questions, ideas and look for corporations.

-Leave the character trading system unaffected.

-Decrease the amount of thread derailment and trolling.

-Adds an incentive to joining a player made corporation.

---
An alternative of this is enacting some sort of CSPA fee for NPC corporation posters so they must pay per post but, it is less friendly to newbies.
---

An alternative from a former CSM:

---
A commonly suggested alternative: Restrict posting to the highest SP character on the account.

I often find myself agreeing with your posts, and this post is no different. NPC Corps are the cancer that is hurting the forums and Eve alike. NPC Corps are troll(forums) and bot-aspirant(Gameplay).

The counterpoint is that CAOD quality significantly improved when this suggested change happened. Sure some people will climb the :effort: wall but, the change will still have its desired effect, decreasing over all npc alt troll posting.

Somehow your statement reminds me famous Catbert quote: layoffs will continue until morale improves.

If you think you can force people into your favourite sort of activities you are as much fool as who thinks he can prevent anyone from doing them. If you want more players taking part in so called content creation, start by showing them that those who do are not douchebags wanting to drive into oblivion those who don't.

I want people out of NPC Corps because they do nothing but detract from the game. You just have to fly around HS and see how many people run missions, incursions and mine whilst being in NPC corps simply to avoid war decs knowing that if anybody tries to gank them concord will retaliate.

I want people to be in player create corps as it improves the game, it allows for more player driven content, it encourages players to get together and play together.

A change that might occur if you heavily nerf NPC's corps like I have suggested is that people might be more inclined to work together to order to better protect themselves from any dangers. Different groups might more inclined to work together against any aggressor as the alternative which is to simply leave to a NPC corp will be so unpalatable that they will be more willing to fight to keep hold of what they have.

So the defining point of contribution is being in a player corp even though that does nothing more than one allows it to when it comes to being subject to a wardec? So they can do exactly the same thing and somehow not be detracting? What does detracting even mean? How is the game demonstrably worse off than what it would be if I weren't here?

The only thing prevented from being in NPC corp is a wardec. Nothing else. As such there is no reason to believe a highsec centric person who wants to remain there would suddenly decide not to do so just because they were forced into a corp because their previous residence became unplayable.

There is still no reason to defend against a war dec and forcing people into player corps doesn't change that, which is why most player corps don't fight them and just dodge. Fighting a fight you don't want doesn't make sense and isn't a smart thing to do.

Being able to war dec a corp thus its players creates player driven content. Eve is all about player driven content. So that small thing can actually lead to much bigger things, the butterfly effect.

Avoiding war decs and PvP is also player generated content, just not the kind you like.

You're right about the butterfly effect though, if NPC corps disappeared within a month you'd be looking at hundreds of millions for a cruiser because all the miners would be dead.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - NPC corps don't "encourage" risk aversity, it's ingrained in the player. It's also in all areas of space. The amount of people in low/null who wont engage with a hotdrop backup or overwhelming odds is significant. Let's not pretend that the only risk averse people sit in high sec.

However, this has very little to do with the topic at hand and is more a generic "death to NPC corps because they play a way I dont like", which is well and good but probably better for its own topic.


Edit: Also people drop corp in war decs because they don't want to fight/can't fight those odds but they wish to keep playing the game as opposed to sitting in a hanger. Forcing them to do what they don't find fun will lead to bad things.

It generates zero player content as it stop players from interacting with each other. Yes I like when players interact with each and destroy each other ships, omfg I am such a evil person !!!!

Why would hundreds of miners be dead? Are you saying that these people are incapable of defending themselves?

Also so what if prices went up. That would just mean those who are able to work together and defend themselves would make more isk. Those who refuse to work together would fall by the way side. I see no problem with any of this.

See the problem with people like you is that you are so risk adverse, you are so used to running and away and hiding that you are incapable of thinking outside the box. You are incapable of seeing that there is other options then just running away.

Honestly CAOD is not exactly the epitome of good posting for anything but CAOD. I may be missing something there, but looking at it seems like more of what we already have. The only difference being that such is expected in CAOD. CAOD also has the benefit of being nothing more than ego stroking and propaganda by nature. There literally isn't much to ruin. If you were to take those same posts and apply them to actual discussions regarding the development of the game they would be pure noise.

The problem this creates is the incomparable nature of that forum and others and as such makes it a poor comparison point to justify this change.