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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
891
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 17:33:00 -
[2551] - Quote
Sarah Flynt wrote: >>Ah, that legend again. 2.5-3 billion might be the threshold for you personally, it certainly is far far lower for many other ganker groups. Just check the killboard of the last few weeks. Half or more of the ganked freighters don't even reach that value even if you include the price for the hull and I already let the ones out which have plastic wraps in it. I didn't include Burn Jita btw. Ganking freighters is cheap compared to the value of the target. 15 T2 Catalysts and you kill any freighter in a 0.5 system. At the current price of 10 mil per T2 gank Catalyst and a droprate of 50% you already break even at 300 mil
>>Again some real numbers that are not pulled out of thin air:
>>It is, but other than you think. What makes you think that all people will suddenly grow a brain and fit for an appropriate tank? Did that happen with mining barges after they were buffed? Hell, no. What you're also forgetting is that when the industrial changes hit far more people have to move stuff around in order to use cheap manufacturing slots. Do you really think they all fit for tank and not for convenience?
>>P.S.: Apart from underlining and bold text markup, I'd also use different colors next time. Makes it all the more convincing. Maybe Fozzie likes pink ;)
I was obviously estimating some of the EHP values from memory - and was including cheap 5% hull implants because people actually use those - and they are very significant. Rubicon JFs are even harder to kill than I'd estimated. My numbers were surprisingly good, especially on future Orcas. (And for someone being so pedantic - you do a remarkably bad job of estimating the cost of a T2 Catalyst. Thats also from memory.)
My point remains, this represents a massive EHP buff which will allow traders to convey FAR larger values of cargo around highsec with negligible risk. (and the risk is already quite low)
Further, Catalysts aren't the 'gank ship' of choice for freighters simply because they require 3x larger coordinated fleets. Merely using 15 of them is 'bare bones' and increases the chance of something going wrong and failing the gank. Sure, some people gank empty freighters, a few others might use ISBoxed Catalysts. But Talos fleets of 7 or more are the gold standard, by far the most likely ganking 'for profit' scenario - so that is what I use.
No, I'm quite sure that some people will fail-fit. And carebears never fail to impress me in that regard. But a random Retriever in a belt and a trader hauling billions in a freighter or Jump Freighter are two completely different things. 'Full' freighters tend to be full of low value items like tritanium - making the Tanked Freighter the most likely scenario for potential for high value gank targets. When profitting from trade, M^3 is not as important as ISK value. M^3 it merely limits the range of items you can trade in. When dealing in mid-range market items (vs bulk raw materials) that can lead to a gank attack - 130 m^3 is a hell of a lot. A radical expansion in safety and capabilities.
Even today, waiting for a 2-3 Billion ISK freighter to come along can take quite a long time. As Warr Akini said - keeping a large number of people on standby waiting for a target is easier said than done - when they could be doing other things. Why do low value freighters sometimes get ganked? Its the "eh, we have this fleet together, but its late so we might as well blow up something" effect.
Try this - sit in Uedama, Niarja, or Balle. Sit there scanning freighters until a 6-8 Billion ISK freighter comes along. How long do you think you can keep 20-25 or so Talos pilots sitting still waiting for that kind of target to come by? Because that is what it will take to threaten Kronos Jump Freighters.
And hell, Orcas haven't even gotten their balance pass yet. 450K EHP and 70K M^3 for a ship that costs only 350M? Sounds like a bargain when you consider it would take 15+ or so Taloses costing more than 1.5 Billion to kill.
P.S. Its just my way of telling Fozzie, "Bro, I've been there. I know how much carebear rage stings. Everytime miners send me hateful, threatening EVEmails, I cry a little inside. But Fozzie, you have to stay strong. We are doing it.....for them." |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 21:45:00 -
[2552] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't it take " a huge number" of defenders to defend against 120 attackers? It should, not trying to suggest otherwise. I was pointing out that neither RR nor ECM was used to save the infamous 'repped' JF during Burn Jita.
So for gankers using catalysts you need around the same number of defender pilots to have a chance to fend off the attack, and it only works as long as the attacking fleet uses fragile ships like catalysts. Against an Alphanado fleet nothing helps. The freighter or JF just dies.
If the average risk of getting suicide ganked while flying a freighter in HiSec outside a wardec is low, then consider the boredom and strain on the 'defender fleet', who has to shepherd it everywhere. Seen in this context I find the comment from another post about the poor Talos ganker pilots, who have to wait *ages* for a sufficiently well stuffed JF to show itself, quite hilarious.
There is no practical defense against suicide ganking for everyday logistics or trading. Your only choice is to cross your fingers and hope you won't be selected for 'special treatment'. Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 21:48:00 -
[2553] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:And hell, Orcas haven't even gotten their balance pass yet. 450K EHP and 70K M^3 for a ship that costs only 350M? Sounds like a bargain when you consider it would take 15+ or so Taloses costing more than 1.5 Billion to kill. Orcas currently cost around 640M ISK. Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Ice Coldon
Coldon Mining Axion Bionics
0
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Posted - 2014.05.27 23:30:00 -
[2554] - Quote
One small point. If you are going to web your freighter, last I did it you needed 2 webber ships. This was because the webber got agression and had a timer before jumping thru the gate. Unless it was really far between gates the freighter would get their before the webber could jump.
So unless the mechanics have changed, you need 2 webber pilots so they can leap frog.
I expect most high sec freighters to go for tank. but I don't know the statistics of how many run full loads or partial. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
891
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 00:07:00 -
[2555] - Quote
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:And hell, Orcas haven't even gotten their balance pass yet. 450K EHP and 70K M^3 for a ship that costs only 350M? Sounds like a bargain when you consider it would take 15+ or so Taloses costing more than 1.5 Billion to kill. Orcas currently cost around 640M ISK.
Ack, bad typo. Build about 6 a month, I should know that......
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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
162
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Posted - 2014.05.28 01:06:00 -
[2556] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:And hell, Orcas haven't even gotten their balance pass yet. 450K EHP and 70K M^3 for a ship that costs only 350M? Sounds like a bargain when you consider it would take 15+ or so Taloses costing more than 1.5 Billion to kill. Orcas currently cost around 640M ISK. Ack, bad typo. Build about 6 a month, I should know that...... If you're building and selling for 350, sign me up :) lol
Either way, Orca/Rorq balance will come at some point.. |
Marsan
226
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Posted - 2014.05.28 02:23:00 -
[2557] - Quote
Jin d'SaanGo wrote:It's about time that we also get some hull tanking warfare links. That will work well with the proposed changes.
That would rock for battle orcas;-) Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
72
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 12:19:00 -
[2558] - Quote
Its been said, but any Dev input on the issue of the armour freighters having an advantage on tanking using low slots?
Adaptive Nanos and the variants:
3x Coreli ANP on Provi: 46000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.
The same on a Charon ... 15000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.
The Fenrir and Obelisk sit in the middle of course, Fenrir worse for armour significantly.
Thats a massive fundamental difference. Understandably hard to balance with no midslots and resulting penalties for using bulkheads to tank. This is amplified on the T2 variants ... the sudden change to lowslots from rigs may have created this blind spot.
Can we add some flavour to the shield variants - agility for the Fenrir, speed for the Charon ... make them worthwhile. Otherwise the tiny differences mean its a nerf in all but name. |
Tramar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 19:20:00 -
[2559] - Quote
So having to use cargohold expanders to achieve the same level of cargo is good. But it will make freighters even slower. Srsly, they are slow enough. |
Axe Coldon
42
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 20:16:00 -
[2560] - Quote
Rab See wrote:Its been said, but any Dev input on the issue of the armour freighters having an advantage on tanking using low slots?
Adaptive Nanos and the variants:
3x Coreli ANP on Provi: 46000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.
The same on a Charon ... 15000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.
The Fenrir and Obelisk sit in the middle of course, Fenrir worse for armour significantly.
Thats a massive fundamental difference. Understandably hard to balance with no midslots and resulting penalties for using bulkheads to tank. This is amplified on the T2 variants ... the sudden change to lowslots from rigs may have created this blind spot.
Can we add some flavour to the shield variants - agility for the Fenrir, speed for the Charon ... make them worthwhile. Otherwise the tiny differences mean its a nerf in all but name.
Well if they don't do anything about shield tanked freighters I plan to switch to the Amarr Freighter.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________ No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. |
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Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
69
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:20:00 -
[2561] - Quote
So now we'll be able to modify our freighters with 3 low slot modules, what's next, nitrous oxide and a big stereo? Slippery slope :P |
ashley Eoner
310
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 22:30:00 -
[2562] - Quote
Axe Coldon wrote:Rab See wrote:Its been said, but any Dev input on the issue of the armour freighters having an advantage on tanking using low slots?
Adaptive Nanos and the variants:
3x Coreli ANP on Provi: 46000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.
The same on a Charon ... 15000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.
The Fenrir and Obelisk sit in the middle of course, Fenrir worse for armour significantly.
Thats a massive fundamental difference. Understandably hard to balance with no midslots and resulting penalties for using bulkheads to tank. This is amplified on the T2 variants ... the sudden change to lowslots from rigs may have created this blind spot.
Can we add some flavour to the shield variants - agility for the Fenrir, speed for the Charon ... make them worthwhile. Otherwise the tiny differences mean its a nerf in all but name. Well if they don't do anything about shield tanked freighters I plan to switch to the Amarr Freighter. Yeah at least teh providence is cool looking
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Ivy Lyn Relintolde
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.05.28 23:44:00 -
[2563] - Quote
Alright So I haven't decided if i want to train for a freighter or not yet, I know with the Nerfed cargo it would still suit all my needs but with 3 low slots as well? That is interesting. Anyone have any Idea how much tank say a Providence would get out of a T2 Damage Control and 2 RF Bulkheads ( T2 )??
Because the way I see it you need like 5-6 Talos to Gank a freighter as is, and like 15 catalysts ( Depends on system level of course ). So would adding the DC II and RFB II's really make a big enough difference to allow freighter pilots to carry more than 600m at a time without extreme risk of getting ganked by a catalyst gang? Or 800m to avoid a Talos Gang? Or is it not enough tank to really matter? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
698
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 00:03:00 -
[2564] - Quote
Ivy Lyn Relintolde wrote:Alright So I haven't decided if i want to train for a freighter or not yet, I know with the Nerfed cargo it would still suit all my needs but with 3 low slots as well? That is interesting. Anyone have any Idea how much tank say a Providence would get out of a T2 Damage Control and 2 RF Bulkheads ( T2 )??
Because the way I see it you need like 5-6 Talos to Gank a freighter as is, and like 15 catalysts ( Depends on system level of course ). So would adding the DC II and RFB II's really make a big enough difference to allow freighter pilots to carry more than 600m at a time without extreme risk of getting ganked by a catalyst gang? Or 800m to avoid a Talos Gang? Or is it not enough tank to really matter? You can't fit a DCII because of fitting requirements and it won't happen because you would be able to effectively double your tank which is more than 3 bulkheads can do alone and still have the ability to fit other mods. |
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
38
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 10:20:00 -
[2565] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Try this - sit in Uedama, Niarja, or Balle. Sit there scanning freighters until a 6-8 Billion ISK freighter comes along. How long do you think you can keep 20-25 or so Talos pilots sitting still waiting for that kind of target to come by? Because that is what it will take to threaten Kronos Jump Freighters. "
And you don't have to do none of that. You need one person. Bumper. He can bump the ship until all of your mates assemble, which can be hours and hours. Then you can gank it. |
Warr Akini
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
135
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 10:39:00 -
[2566] - Quote
Walter Hart White wrote:And you don't have to do none of that. You need one person. Bumper. He can bump the ship until all of your mates assemble, which can be hours and hours. Then you can gank it.
Incorrect, and you clearly have never run a fleet of actual people-cats (i.e. a formup that takes longer than thirty minutes will not happen). |
Lahingingel
KolliURG
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 10:45:00 -
[2567] - Quote
What about JF fuel consumption? Will it be remaining the same as it is (other than 50% increase across the board) and has anyone bothered to run already the numbers for isotopes / m3 after the summer patch?
Assuming ofc, max skills and max expanded (of for comparison it would be interesting also to see with JF skill at 4 for non-dedicated hauling alts). |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
62
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 11:23:00 -
[2568] - Quote
Lahingingel wrote:What about JF fuel consumption? Will it be remaining the same as it is (other than 50% increase across the board) and has anyone bothered to run already the numbers for isotopes / m3 after the summer patch?
Assuming ofc, max skills and max expanded (of for comparison it would be interesting also to see with JF skill at 4 for non-dedicated hauling alts).
Yes, I have run the numbers, no it didn't change much cause M3 didn't change much and isotopes used haven't changed much other than the 50% increase. |
Lahingingel
KolliURG
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 12:26:00 -
[2569] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Lahingingel wrote:What about JF fuel consumption? Will it be remaining the same as it is (other than 50% increase across the board) and has anyone bothered to run already the numbers for isotopes / m3 after the summer patch?
Assuming ofc, max skills and max expanded (of for comparison it would be interesting also to see with JF skill at 4 for non-dedicated hauling alts). Yes, I have run the numbers, no it didn't change much cause M3 didn't change much and isotopes used haven't changed much other than the 50% increase.
Mmmm would have been nice to get the numbers as well.
Did the numbers. Max cargo, max skills. 50% increased fuel consumption. Ark 349 763 m3, 1163 iso / ly - 321.5 m3 / isotope per ly Rhea 373 080 m3, 1238 iso / ly - 301.4 m3 / isotope per ly Anshar 356 240 m3, 1163 iso / ly - 306.3 m3 / isotope per ly Nomad 341 990 m3, 1013 iso / ly - 337.6 m3 / isotope per ly
Dunno why I had the impression that something has changed in that regard. I guess I assumed that as they all are more uniform now they would also get fuel consumption normalized. Ignoring the isotope prices for now as that is not something ships can be balanced on bcos of all the fluctuations and FOTM fleet compositions. |
Oppih Nogard
Omega Engineering Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 18:44:00 -
[2570] - Quote
Well ...... Will this allow warp stabs to be installed in the lows? |
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Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
331
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 18:46:00 -
[2571] - Quote
Oppih Nogard wrote:Well ...... Will this allow warp stabs to be installed in the lows? no my teapot is ready |
Weed Probe
Dynaco Manufacturing
11
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Posted - 2014.05.29 20:50:00 -
[2572] - Quote
As a manufacturing oriented player, I am very pleased with those freighter changes ! I probe weed.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
612
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 21:51:00 -
[2573] - Quote
I am not seeing a solution to create current stats on a regular freighter. The closest I can get are one T2 bulkhead and two T2 cargo expanders. This still leaves the freighter light by ~100k cargo space. What have I missed? -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1594
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 21:57:00 -
[2574] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote: What have I missed?
that ur not meant to be able to create the old freighters?
there are ways to improve upon certain stats at the expense of others. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Dibble Dabble
Capital Assets Inc
23
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Posted - 2014.05.29 22:03:00 -
[2575] - Quote
I would like to thank the CSM and CCP for continuing to kill the game.
Lets kill industry a little more and make hauling crap more fun. Lets add some low slots but you can't fit much too. Let make freighters smaller so you get to haul more often. Lets screw industry carebears again with the worst upgrade in the memory of man.
Thank god I only have a few more weeks on this account.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6578
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 22:05:00 -
[2576] - Quote
Dibble Dabble wrote:I would like to thank the CSM and CCP for continuing to kill the game.
Lets kill industry a little more and make hauling crap more fun. Lets add some low slots but you can't fit much too. Let make freighters smaller so you get to haul more often. Lets screw industry carebears again with the worst upgrade in the memory of man.
Thank god I only have a few more weeks on this account.
Feel free to contract me your stuff. I will put it to good use. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Dibble Dabble
Capital Assets Inc
23
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 22:16:00 -
[2577] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dibble Dabble wrote:I would like to thank the CSM and CCP for continuing to kill the game.
Lets kill industry a little more and make hauling crap more fun. Lets add some low slots but you can't fit much too. Let make freighters smaller so you get to haul more often. Lets screw industry carebears again with the worst upgrade in the memory of man.
Thank god I only have a few more weeks on this account.
Feel free to contract me your stuff. I will put it to good use.
I will send you a free torpedo, you can suck on that for a change |
Coop207
Corporate Disaster Final Resolution.
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 22:18:00 -
[2578] - Quote
Who's stupid idea was this? What happened to making the game better? I guess that idea is out. ******* retards
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
6580
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 22:18:00 -
[2579] - Quote
Dibble Dabble wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dibble Dabble wrote:I would like to thank the CSM and CCP for continuing to kill the game.
Lets kill industry a little more and make hauling crap more fun. Lets add some low slots but you can't fit much too. Let make freighters smaller so you get to haul more often. Lets screw industry carebears again with the worst upgrade in the memory of man.
Thank god I only have a few more weeks on this account.
Feel free to contract me your stuff. I will put it to good use. I will send you a free torpedo, you can suck on that for a change
If you're really quitting, nothing shows commitment like giving away all of your assets. That way, you won't be tempted to return. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Psychotic Monk for CSM9. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
703
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 22:21:00 -
[2580] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dibble Dabble wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dibble Dabble wrote:I would like to thank the CSM and CCP for continuing to kill the game.
Lets kill industry a little more and make hauling crap more fun. Lets add some low slots but you can't fit much too. Let make freighters smaller so you get to haul more often. Lets screw industry carebears again with the worst upgrade in the memory of man.
Thank god I only have a few more weeks on this account.
Feel free to contract me your stuff. I will put it to good use. I will send you a free torpedo, you can suck on that for a change If you're really quitting, nothing shows commitment like giving away all of your assets. That way, you won't be tempted to return. Better yet, take all your belongings, put them in max cargo freighter and pay bankers all your money to kill you. That's true dedication. |
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