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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:48:00 - [151] Originally by: Tuxford So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. the thing is, I'm sure the majority would be happy if the Rubbish Amarr AF and the sacri were changed into missile spamming armor tankers. Minmatar need to train up: Drones Shield Tank Armour Tank Guns Missiles Navigation In order to be effective in all of their ships. Amarr need what, Drones, Armor Tank and Guns to be good (navigation gives nice bonuses but isn't essential). Gallente get Drones, Guns, Armor Tank and Navigation (need to mwd in quick), and Caldari get Guns, Missiles and Shield tank. Making Amarr train up a bit of the missile catagory wouldn't be a bad thing, and it would give a role to the ships that needed them other than "rather bad laser platforms". By combining weapons that use no cap with ships with huge cap you let them run beefy tanks, which I thought was the whole reason CCP invented Khanid ships. While you're here - when are minmatar gonna get some dedicated missile ships? Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Tassi	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:49:00 - [152] Originally by: Tuxford See the thing is with Amarr is that they don't really have a "flavor" like the other races. The Caldari have missiles and rails (people have different opinions about which is the caldari weapon system). Gallante have hybrids and drones and minmatar have well speed. Amarr on the other hand tank and gank that makes it pretty hard to make to combat ships that are similar but yet different, this holds especially true for Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships. One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. Delete vengeance, give retribution another mid and everybody is happy.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:50:00 - [153] Originally by: Tuxford and minmatar have well speed That there kind of sums up the entire reason why we have so many gimp ships - even the Devs don't really know what we're meant to be doing. Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 24/05/06! Become my Wingman!
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:51:00 - [154] Originally by: Sarmaul and Caldari get Guns, Missiles,Electronics, Navigation and Shield tank because they need to do EWAR and their ships are very bulky. Takes ages to align or turn. Corrected for accuracy. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:53:00 - [155] Edited by: keepiru on 31/05/2006 11:53:45 Mmmmmmrrreeeh!!!! Yes. If you were to go ALL THE WAY towards making khanid armor-tanked missile boats - and i DO mean all the way, not some half-assed split-weapon armor-tanked shield-heavy POS with no grid or cpu to speak of - it. would. be. good. there, i said it. Tbh, the thought of a double-repped injector-fed missile-spewing sacrilege makes my pants glow with an awesome power. Though the thought of EM missile damage bonus makes me cry. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:54:00 - [156] Originally by: Sarmaul the thing is, I'm sure the majority would be happy if the Rubbish Amarr AF and the sacri were changed into missile spamming armor tankers. qft More then that it's something that is really fresh and interesting, an armor tanking missile boat. - _____
Serj Darek	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:55:00 - [157] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Tuxford and minmatar have well speed That there kind of sums up the entire reason why we have so many gimp ships - even the Devs don't really know what we're meant to be doing. QFT Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making!
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:55:00 - [158] Originally by: Tuxford See the thing is with Amarr is that they don't really have a "flavor" like the other races. The Caldari have missiles and rails (people have different opinions about which is the caldari weapon system). Gallante have hybrids and drones and minmatar have well speed. Amarr on the other hand tank and gank that makes it pretty hard to make to combat ships that are similar but yet different, this holds especially true for Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships. One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. There were soooo many very good ideas how to improve the Sac and vengeance before you changed them. Why didnt you implent some of those? Sac with EM missile damage bonus and RoF for launchers Vengeance with cap recharge and damage bonus list goes on..... Its just sad that the Sac deals very poor damage cuz you cant fit heavy pulse on it. See here: Deimos can fit electrons and Ions fine cuz of the double damage bonus, no neutrons due to grid issues, balanced (light tank if you want neutrons) Ishtar can fit 5x medium nos and a good tank, balanced Eagle can fit 250mm II and 2x heavy launchers and a tank, balanced Cerberus can fit 5x heavy launchers and a good tank, balanced Zealot can fit 4 heavy pulse and a strong tank, perfectly balanced Sac has a great tank but cant fit even a combo of 3x heavy pulse II/med nos/launchers. If you could give us/me some math of the Sacs damage output so we/I can understand your changes, then I¦ll shut up and everyone can be happy. Ship lovers click here

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:55:00 - [159] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Yeah, I can see the reasoning. But on the other hand, pretty much everyone else has to train multiple weapon systems if they want to use all their racial ships -- why should Amarr be different in this regard? Yeah I agree with that partly. The thing is that missiles don't become a secondary weapon system for Amarr until in the elite ships. The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants so you might imagine the total self control I'm showing by not just going ahead and do this ... well I would need to clear this with some other devs first. As for nos and web defense then currently its not in my power to do that. We've thought about some kind of "cap resistance" but thats still in some sort of "brain storming" stage. _______________

Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:55:00 - [160] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Sarmaul and Caldari get Guns, Missiles,Electronics, Navigation and Shield tank because they need to do EWAR and their ships are very bulky. Takes ages to align or turn. Corrected for accuracy. everyone has electronics (amarr "need" to do tracking disrupting, gallente "need" to do sensor damping and nobody really needs to do target painting but that's besides the point), your ships do not rely on speed - they are long-ranged ships. And testy, nobody knows what minmatar ships are supposed to do. If we were truely meant to have fast ships we wouldn't end up with gimped mass that lets other races go faster with mwds and abs. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:56:00 - [161] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul the thing is, I'm sure the majority would be happy if the Rubbish Amarr AF and the sacri were changed into missile spamming armor tankers. qft More then that it's something that is really fresh and interesting, an armor tanking missile boat. looks like you might get your wish ;) Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:57:00 - [162] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Tuxford and minmatar have well speed That there kind of sums up the entire reason why we have so many gimp ships - even the Devs don't really know what we're meant to be doing. LOL no its not that. Speed just isn't a different weapon system. Minmatar do need to train for more weapon systems than any other race but speed doesn't really exclude them using weapons, so its a flavor that isn't as easily explained as drones and missiles/rails _______________

Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:57:00 - [163] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Sarmaul and Caldari get Guns, Missiles,Electronics, Navigation and Shield tank because they need to do EWAR and their ships are very bulky. Takes ages to align or turn. Corrected for accuracy. I wouldn't call that accurate. More like a whine (as usual). - _____
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:57:00 - [164] Originally by: keepiru [ Yes. If you were to go ALL THE WAY towards making khanid armor-tanked missile boats - and i DO mean all the way, not some half-assed split-weapon armor-tanked shield-heavy POS with no grid or cpu to speak of - it. would. be. good. there, i said it. Yeah. No half-assed half-missile-half-guns bonuses, but proper missile boni and lots of launchers. With weapons that need no cap and have good range, you could run up a hefty tank. And most importantly, it would be something different and interesting. All the missile boats in the game currently are shield tankers.
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:58:00 - [165] Originally by: Tuxford The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants so you might imagine the total self control I'm showing by not just going ahead and do this Its zen trainign they gave you at the sikrit tibetan monastery where eve devs are trained before they let you loose onto the forums, isnt it? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:00:00 - [166] Originally by: Alex Harumichi And most importantly, it would be something different and interesting. All the missile boats in the game currently are shield tankers. Which is kind of why so many people are excited about the tier-3 caldari - very large shield-tanked gunboat (pest doesent really count, i think we can all agree there). ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:00:00 - [167] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Sarmaul and Caldari get Guns, Missiles,Electronics, Navigation and Shield tank because they need to do EWAR and their ships are very bulky. Takes ages to align or turn. Corrected for accuracy. I wouldn't call that accurate. More like a whine (as usual). I hardly whine or almost never whine in Ship and Mods forums. I just let you guys do it. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:02:00 - [168] Edited by: Meridius on 31/05/2006 12:04:35 Originally by: Tuxford Minmatar do need to train for more weapon systems than any other race Have to disagree here. Minnies best ships just use projectiles, they don't depend on drones or missiles ever really. IE. Rifter with guns guns guns Rupture with guns guns and some nos Stabber with guns guns guns Tempest with guns guns and some nos Vagabond with guns guns guns guns guns Wolf/Jaguar...guns guns guns The Typhoon is the exception but well, it's just 1 ship and tbh, not really worth training up drones/missiles for. They do have to learn shield/armor tanking tho. - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:02:00 - [169] New Sacri: 6/4/5, 5 launchers, 4 turrets Amarr Cruiser: 10% energy turret cap use, 5% armour resists Heavy Assault: 10% launcher velocity and 5% launcher rof (NO EM MISSILE BONUS!!!!) People who want to use turrets can still do so and have the same damage output as a maller. People who want to use missiles can do so and get a 25% rof bonus (which is better than a 25% damage bonus). Also, the 10% launcher velocity instead of flight time will allow it to hit targets quicker and hit quicker targets (you might need to read that a couple of times). In a launcher configuration it will have 1300 cap devoted entirely to armour tanking, and due to the low powergrid needs of missile launchers it can fit multiple reps and cap boosters. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:03:00 - [170] No, no, no. Please no more half-assed mixed weapon ships! If you want to make khanid good as missile boats, make them goddamn missile boats! split weapons = kthnxdie slaps sarmaul ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Astrum Ludus	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:04:00 - [171] Originally by: Tuxford So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. I'd be furious lol Changes seem okay to me, but then I don't have the depth of experience to really know why the Veng was so woeful in the first place tbh. The thing about Amarr is that you need so many Gunnery skills to come close to Missiles in PvE making us train missiles for a group of our ships just seems like a spit in the eye. I don't really mind the way T1 Amarr ships go atm, biased towards tank or gank, even if that doesn't make them very distinct. If the Retri is Gank I'd take the Veng as Tackle/Tank, maybe give it another mid put some total cap bonuses on there, like a small Apoc This is after all the way the rest of their ships go. /me prepares to be shot down in flames
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:05:00 - [172] Originally by: Meridius Have to disagree here. then prahaps you would like to pledge your support for turning the vagabond into a 4k/s missile spamming monster? Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:06:00 - [173] Originally by: keepiru No, no, no. Please no more half-assed mixed weapon ships! If you want to make khanid good as missile boats, make them goddamn missile boats! split weapons = kthnxdie slaps sarmaul all hacs inherit the bonuses of their t1 ship. not much I can do about it. At least I gave it 5 launchers (same as the cerb) and all of the hac bonuses apply to them. Btw, half-assed split-weapon ships are ships like the phoon and rapier which get half their highs devoted to one weapon and the other half devoted to another. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Gripen	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:12:00 - [174] Edited by: Gripen on 31/05/2006 12:12:14 Please, hands off Vengeance!!! Before incoming patch I considered it to be SECOND BEST AF in game for the job I use assault frigs for (heavy tackling). Even with additional low slot it's a nerf imho and that is why: 25% damage bonus in DPS term is roughly equal to single heat sink (T2 heat sink gives 22.9% DPS boost). To get additional 50% to range you'll have to fit 3 tracking enhancers (1.15^3=1.520875) but if you take into account stacking penalty 3 enhancers will give about 41.2% more range. After this change Vengeance will be the only turret AF without range bonus and without it pulses will be completly useless. Even if increased CPU\Grid will allow Vengeance to fit Medium Beams without MAPC they'll do less damage than pulses do now. Even more, beams have much lower tracking than pulses and to compensate this I'll have to fit web instead of EW I was using in second med. For me this change means: -Lower DPS -One more low slot instead of med (will have to fit web) -Ability to shoot little further with Aurora instead of ability to do more damage with Conflagration.
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:14:00 - [175] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Sarmaul New Sacri: 6/4/5, 5 launchers, 4 turrets Amarr Cruiser: 10% energy turret cap use, 5% armour resists Heavy Assault: 10% launcher velocity and 5% launcher rof (NO EM MISSILE BONUS!!!!) People who want to use turrets can still do so and have the same damage output as a maller. People who want to use missiles can do so and get a 25% rof bonus (which is better than a 25% damage bonus). Also, the 10% launcher velocity instead of flight time will allow it to hit targets quicker and hit quicker targets (you might need to read that a couple of times). In a launcher configuration it will have 1300 cap devoted entirely to armour tanking, and due to the low powergrid needs of missile launchers it can fit multiple reps and cap boosters. Sarmaul for President! I would love something like that, and would try to buy a bunch of them before the prices skyrocketed due to demand. I like the idea that you can use it as a turret boat if you absolutelu have to, that looks very versatile... and any ship which can fit multiple good setups is almost always better than the ship with just one cookie-cutter setup. The best thing: it would be totally different from the Zealot, finally giving the Amarr what the other races have had for quite a long time: two different ships, for different tastes and roles. Currently there's just two variants of laser armorboat, which is a bit "meh". I agree. Ship lovers click here
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:17:00 - [176] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 31/05/2006 12:18:19 Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Alex Harumichi Yeah, I can see the reasoning. But on the other hand, pretty much everyone else has to train multiple weapon systems if they want to use all their racial ships -- why should Amarr be different in this regard? Yeah I agree with that partly. The thing is that missiles don't become a secondary weapon system for Amarr until in the elite ships. Thats not exactly true, afaict the Inquisitor is a T1 ship And I don't know how much the Augoror is used, but I have yet to see one in space, so that might be a candidate for a T1 missile cruiser for Amarr without upsetting anyone (It does not have a laser cap bonus anyway, so changing the highslots to missiles would make sense too) And lastly, missiles are easy to train anyway, it will not break anyones back if they need missiles to fully enjoy both their T2 ship variants imho. So please go ahead and make Khanid into armortanking missile boats. It is not like the amarr sheep will use the current bastard ships even with the slight boosts they got, so it really could only increase their use. I will start a collection for a Tuxford Monument in Khanid Prime if you do ;) --------- Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:18:00 - [177] Originally by: Gripen Before incoming patch I considered it to be SECOND BEST AF in game for the job I use assault frigs for (heavy tackling). Thats what I was trying to say earlier, but as usual, all the sheep can see is that they want it to shoot stuff with gunz. Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 24/05/06! Become my Wingman!
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:19:00 - [178] Amarr 2x laser ships Gallente 1x drone and 1x rail/blaster ship Caldari 1x missile and 1x rail/blaster(!) ship Minmatar 1x AC and 1x howi ship Ship lovers click here
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:20:00 - [179] I would love for khanid to turn into missile boats!
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:20:00 - [180] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 31/05/2006 12:21:32 Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 31/05/2006 12:04:35 Originally by: Tuxford Minmatar do need to train for more weapon systems than any other race Have to disagree here. Minnies best ships just use projectiles, they don't depend on drones or missiles ever really. IE. Rifter with guns guns guns Rupture with guns guns and some nos Stabber with guns guns guns Tempest with guns guns and some nos Vagabond with guns guns guns guns guns Wolf/Jaguar...guns guns guns The Typhoon is the exception but well, it's just 1 ship and tbh, not really worth training up drones/missiles for. They do have to learn shield/armor tanking tho. you know thats a very selective view. Youre forgetting the cyclone, rapier and typhoon on purpose and mention "nos" which is a default item. Sadly "nos" dont need a sepcial slot, the original ships have missiles and turret slots. Most minmatar have a forced mix of those 2 components. To get the full dmg output of all interceptors, dreadsm cruisers and bs you MUST train missiles. Minmatars medslots and lack of tankability often force ppl to use ecm not in the function of a pure jamming boat but to imrpove the respective ships tank. Ontop many ships qualify with a nice dronebay (eventho no special ship is dedicated to that role) to train up those skills to get more out of your ship.

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