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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:03:00 - [1] Edited by: Sarmaul on 30/05/2006 22:05:46 "The Jaguar projectile tracking speed bonus has been changed to a projectile damage bonus. It also has a higher power and cpu output and a new medium power slot." Double damage bonus, an extra mid and more room for fittings "The Vengeance laser optimal range bonus has been changed to a laser damage bonus. Also, its armor and power output have increased, while sheilds have been decreased. A new low power slot rounds out the changes." Can someone Amarrian tell me if this is good or not? "The Wolf projectile optimal range bonus has been changed to a projectile damage bonus. Also, its falloff bonus has been increased to 10% to balance it with other ships of the same class." The Wolf just became an absolute close-range autocannon monster. "The Hawk launcher rate of fire bonus has been changed to missile kinetic damage bonus, and the hybrid optimal bonus has been changed to missile velocity bonus. It also has a higher power output and a new high power slot." And I am so training caldari frig for this. See, sometimes when you hammer the point home for long enough the devs do take notice Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
madaluap	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:08:00 - [2] Goddamned what about the Ishkur Nah these are good bonusses, allthough i can see some people whining @ kinetic dmgbonus from hawk.. _________________________________________________
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:09:00 - [3] Originally by: madaluap Goddamned what about the Ishkur the ishkur is the reason for the assault frig changes Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Khadur	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:09:00 - [4] Good day to drive minmatar ^^
madaluap	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: madaluap Goddamned what about the Ishkur the ishkur is the reason for the assault frig changes Hehe, could be true, love the little ship , good to see that these ships are finnaly getting a boost. _________________________________________________
Nafri	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:10:00 - [6] Originally by: madaluap Goddamned what about the Ishkur Nah these are good bonusses, allthough i can see some people whining @ kinetic dmgbonus from hawk.. Ihskur has drones From Dusk till Dawn
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:10:00 - [7] Is the Hawk getting more launchers?
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:11:00 - [8] Hm the vengeance might be nice, but we'll have to see. The removal of the optimal range bonus might downgrade it a bit, but it should be good for the popular setups.. === God is on the side with the best artillery.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:13:00 - [9] Originally by: madaluap Goddamned what about the Ishkur What about it? It's still nasty as heck.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:14:00 - [10] Vengeance.
madaluap	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: madaluap Goddamned what about the Ishkur What about it? It's still nasty as heck. ---- If i sold sarcasme, i would be richer than Khatred _________________________________________________
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:14:00 - [12] I'm so happy.
Frezik	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:15:00 - [13] I just peed a little. Jag now gets to either shield tank, or be a slow Stilleto that's good for shooting things, too. Top teir-AC clip sized fixed, and Wolf gets a falloff bonus * <-- This is a picture of angles dancing for joy on a head of a pin. ---- "Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:16:00 - [14] Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: madaluap Goddamned what about the Ishkur What about it? It's still nasty as heck. ---- If i sold sarcasme, i would be richer than Khatred And if I sold sarcasm, my head would of exploded by now.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:19:00 - [15] btw, with assault ships 5 the ships with the extra damage bonus will end up with a 56.25% damage increase, as opposed to an interceptor's 50%. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:20:00 - [16] Jumping merchant on a stick, matari got some love <3 Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Sarmaul Quote: The Vengeance laser optimal range bonus has been changed to a laser damage bonus. Also, its armor and power output have increased, while sheilds have been decreased. A new low power slot rounds out the changes. Can someone Amarrian tell me if this is good or not? It's good. In this aspect, I'm Amarrian. Vengeance is my favourite AF (even more than Ishkur!). New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards)
Dampfschlaghammer	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:21:00 - [18] Nice changes Tuxford, I really like the speed at which balance changes are incoming. Dont lose your monumentum . One balance patch/month is the way to go!
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:21:00 - [19] i want 3912 on test server right now
madaluap	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: madaluap Goddamned what about the Ishkur What about it? It's still nasty as heck. ---- If i sold sarcasme, i would be richer than Khatred And if I sold sarcasm, my head would of exploded by now. Hehe yeh your BPO couldnt hold up with demand thats for sure _________________________________________________
madaluap	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:25:00 - [21] Originally by: Wesley Harding Wait a minute. What changes are being made to the Hawk? More launchers or more highs? Its becoming a missile ship, so yes more launchers _________________________________________________
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:25:00 - [22] Wait a minute. What changes are being made to the Hawk? More launchers or more highs?
boost lasers	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:29:00 - [23] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Vengeance. Indeed ____________________________________________________ __
Cpt Abestos	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:32:00 - [24] When can we expect the pg reqs for "medium" beam lasers to be dropped so we can accaully take advantage of the range bouns on the retre?. I would have liked to see the retre lose a high and gain a mid and the range bonus changed to a rof bouns but :/.
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:32:00 - [25] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 22:26:08 Originally by: Wesley Harding Wait a minute. What changes are being made to the Hawk? More launchers or more highs? Its becoming a missile ship, so more launchers and more highslots... Read the notes. It only mentions a change in bonuses and a new high. It's like they're expecting you to have 2 launchers and 3 guns.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Wesley Harding Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 22:26:08 Originally by: Wesley Harding Wait a minute. What changes are being made to the Hawk? More launchers or more highs? Its becoming a missile ship, so more launchers and more highslots... Read the notes. It only mentions a change in bonuses and a new high. It's like they're expecting you to have 2 launchers and 3 guns. it's also getting 4 launchers (it's visible in the eve-o item database but didn't make it to the patch notes). Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Wesley Harding Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 22:26:08 Originally by: Wesley Harding Wait a minute. What changes are being made to the Hawk? More launchers or more highs? Its becoming a missile ship, so more launchers and more highslots... Read the notes. It only mentions a change in bonuses and a new high. It's like they're expecting you to have 2 launchers and 3 guns. it's also getting 4 launchers (it's visible in the eve-o item database but didn't make it to the patch notes). Will you buy my Hawk if it ends up being 2 launcher and 3 turrets with 5 highs?
Phelan Boots	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:36:00 - [28] Holy ****! Jaguar just became a monster! Mini-Vaga is now a go. Much thanks for Sarmaul, Testy, and Naughty Boy for pushing these changes!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Wesley Harding Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Wesley Harding Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 30/05/2006 22:26:08 Originally by: Wesley Harding Wait a minute. What changes are being made to the Hawk? More launchers or more highs? Its becoming a missile ship, so more launchers and more highslots... Read the notes. It only mentions a change in bonuses and a new high. It's like they're expecting you to have 2 launchers and 3 guns. it's also getting 4 launchers (it's visible in the eve-o item database but didn't make it to the patch notes). Will you buy my Hawk if it ends up being 2 launcher and 3 turrets with 5 highs? No, I bought 5 hawks within hours of it being announced it was going to turn into a missile ship and laughed as the price skyrocketed by 14m about an hour after I did so :). I have full plans on doing a nice resell when the changes go through :P Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Ginaz	Posted - 2006.05.30 22:53:00 - [30] Great Patch notes
Spartan239	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:00:00 - [31] still no tracking bonus boost ships with 5% changed to 7.5% and ships with 7.5% changed to 10% for anyone who dosent remember Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
babylonstew	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:14:00 - [32] Originally by: Spartan239 still no tracking bonus boost ships with 5% changed to 7.5% and ships with 7.5% changed to 10% for anyone who dosent remember im still praying for that myself on the whole tho, some pretty decent changes Forum advice Linkage
Ernest Graefenberg	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:16:00 - [33] Quote: Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority now gives bonus to ECM jam strength. Argh.
Phish666	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:27:00 - [34] YES, OH YES, this day has finally come (in a few days) great, now that jag i have is useful, very useful. and whats that, the wolf is an AC ***, very nice. and we also have death by rockets in the form of the hawk, where did that caldari frig skillbook go > right click > Train skill to lvl 5 and the AC boost, fantastic, first we get all proj no cap, smaller teir arties are in line, now we get top teir ACs in line DPSwise:fitting. my mate is really **ed off at me, i forced him to relinquish his comp for me to read the forums, and yes oh yes, joy of joys, he isnt getting it back till i have been through and finished forumwhoring, PS. Sarmuel, I belive the amarrian AF pilots will be happy too, this is incentive to to train ammar frig lvl 5 as well as caldari. man, role on teusday! ... ... ... ... ... ... is it teusday yet? .. .... .................... how bout now? hurry up!
Phish1	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:28:00 - [35] FFS, thats me. damn alt, hes going to die in a few hours anyway, just had to get a word in before he went eh? still not teusday yet?
boost lasers	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:29:00 - [36] Vengeance should at least get it's 5% cap recharge bonus upped to 7.5% It is a 'lesser' bonus like tracking/falloff. ____________________________________________________ __
Talasan	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:32:00 - [37] Edited by: Talasan on 30/05/2006 23:35:20 yay minmatar love this is awesome, i already love my jag, this just puts the icing on the cake and my wolf is guna be tastier than ever, then my phoon will also be useful what more can i ask for edit: spelling mistakes
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:33:00 - [38] Oh, I like. Awesome job 'Tux. Originally by: Phelan Boots Holy **! Jaguar just became a monster! Mini-Vaga is now a go. Much thanks for Sarmaul, Testy, and Naughty Boy for pushing these changes! Weirda should get credit for the changes to AFs much more than anyone else. Originally by:** Grimpak ...the vengeance change is a bit meh tho Seems like that, isn't it . NB.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Naughty Boy Weirda should get credit for the changes to AFs much more than anyone else. weirda should get more credit than anyone else combined tbh. and I was waiting for you to post in this thread. get that spreadsheet updated, I need to see what kinds of nastiness my autowolf is going to do now (would modify it myself but I'm currently reinstalling office) Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:37:00 - [40] Originally by: Naughty Boy Oh, I like. Awesome job 'Tux. Originally by: Phelan Boots Holy **! Jaguar just became a monster! Mini-Vaga is now a go. Much thanks for Sarmaul, Testy, and Naughty Boy for pushing these changes! Weirda should get credit for the changes to AFs much more than anyone else. Originally by:** Grimpak ...the vengeance change is a bit meh tho Seems like that, isn't it . NB. damn sure weirda should take credit for it too, and yes, the change looks like that dmg bonus is ok'ish. the ship needed it. but another low? a 4th med would make it interesting. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Grimpak but another low? a 4th med would make it interesting. erm, wtf? Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:39:00 - [42] Vengeance is a bit meh, but I for one wont complain of the extra low and actually having half-decent fittings on the damn thing. Tha damage bonus? Meh, though i was thinking they shuold have swapped range for dmg and left launcher rof on sacri as well. Its still slow, but I'm gonna have a play with it when its on SISI. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Grimpak but another low? a 4th med would make it interesting. erm, wtf? shhh... don't mind it, the voices told me to post that ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:43:00 - [44] Quote: The Vengeance laser optimal range bonus has been changed to a laser damage bonus. Also, its armor and power output have increased, while sheilds have been decreased. A new low power slot rounds out the changes. Another khanid ship ruined. Tux -> KOS Ship lovers click here
Phelan Boots	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:47:00 - [45] I was actually refering to the Minmatar man love from the Devs. But your right Weirda should get great thanks aswell! -PS Illiteration is FTW
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.30 23:48:00 - [46] Ruined??? Whats to ruin in the current vengeance? They could have changed any of the bonuses to a capacitor flux cpu use and it wouldnd have made a change the thing sucks so damn hard. We're talking golfball through a gardenhose hard. Khanid Innovations = KOS, tbh. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.05.31 00:04:00 - [47] Now I am far from being a PvP expert, but wont that 4th low along with the damage bonus turn the Vengeance into a decent tackler that can take quite a beating and also has a sting? --------- Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Phrixus Zephyr	Posted - 2006.05.31 00:11:00 - [48] Sooo does the Wolf get 5% dmg bonus per frig lvl and 5% per AF level? Is this going to bring its DPS inline with the other top tier AFs or take it over and above? (Was going to cross train for minmatar and im getting more reason to every patch ^^) Originally by: Jude Kopenhagen I heard a little bird tell me that the new Battle Ship will be called "The sky is falling, I'm gonna have to learn more skills, oh woe are us!"
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.05.31 00:23:00 - [49] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 31/05/2006 00:24:03 Originally by: Sarmaul and I was waiting for you to post in this thread. get that spreadsheet updated, I need to see what kinds of nastiness my autowolf is going to do now (would modify it myself but I'm currently reinstalling office) Done. (I saved the spreadsheet with 150mm AC's fitted on minmatar frigs, "Yay" for me and staying up-to-date with the very changes that made me update it ). Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Is this going to bring its DPS inline with the other top tier AFs or take it over and above? It's still sub-par, however i think they certainly don't need any more damage because of the flexibility in range and damage types. Also, the alpha strike of the wolf now looks evil. NB.
SpaceDrake Storyteller	Posted - 2006.05.31 00:30:00 - [50] I've heard people (who will not be named) complaining that the Hawk bonus should be an RoF. Even as it stands, the changes to the Hawk make me hard and slippery. Now to get my little Achura girl up to the point where she can fly a Hawk... -------------- What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward? Player of the character "Andre Ricard".
Seidr	Posted - 2006.05.31 00:32:00 - [51] I'm loving the changes to the Vengeance, it's just what the Amarr AFs needed.
Morrigan Starlover	Posted - 2006.05.31 00:33:00 - [52] madaluap what ship is that in your sig? guardian vexor?
Seidr	Posted - 2006.05.31 00:44:00 - [53] Edited by: Seidr on 31/05/2006 00:45:03 It's an Ishtar I think :) edit: maybe not..
Dan Grommel	Posted - 2006.05.31 01:14:00 - [54] Hurray! 6 Days and my phoon gets useful... time to train missle skills.
Ortu Konsinni	Posted - 2006.05.31 01:20:00 - [55] Originally by: Morrigan Starlover madaluap what ship is that in your sig? guardian vexor? Originally by: Seidr It's an Ishtar I think :) edit: maybe not.. It's a Vexor with the new graphic engine. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
Imode	Posted - 2006.05.31 02:34:00 - [56] Well the concept of Khanid is slowly going out the window. I always thought they were unique but I guess the cries of pew-pew armor tanking Amarrs are taking over. ____________________________ Signature file size to large, please keep it under 24000 bytes - Petwraith How's this? -imo
Epsillon	Posted - 2006.05.31 02:44:00 - [57] Can someone crunch the new numbers on the top tier Autocannon DPS? I'm eager to see how much better than their lower tier counterparts they are now. _____________________________________________
Weirda	Posted - 2006.05.31 03:06:00 - [58] Edited by: Weirda on 31/05/2006 03:08:51 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Vengeance. agreed. personally would have really like to see another mid and some more cpu on there, but thank god they didn't take the recharge bonus away (would have been nice to see it bump up to 7.5% though). all in all weirda very happy that they are moving to boost them. hopefully we will eventually see 4th bonus. sarmaul thank you for towing the line when weirda stop towing it. thanks to you and all the other AS faithful that we managed to get some of these thing pushed through. and thank GOD tux saw the light and realized that a speed bonus would have blown more then insert imaginative blowing here - maybe something paris hilton related. when weirda started that thread so long ago - would have never known there were so many closet AS freak who wanted to see all of them have role (and missing slot). will have to start new one after changes on TQ and really drill into those 4th bonus! EDIT: thanks for throwing Weirda kudos guys! we all made it happen! __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.05.31 03:31:00 - [59] i am a happy minmatar today, me puts Assault Ships lvl5 on training list Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.05.31 03:48:00 - [60] People whining about the vengeance should go out back and beat themselves heavily about the head and shoulders. This was the suckiest AF in existance before; it may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread now but it shouldn't be bad. Good armor tank + 3 mid slots (MWD, web, scram) and pulse laser/rocket II isn't the worst thing ever seen. As for the minmatar frigs the jag is faster and therefore I've always seen it as the ship to use the autocannons on because it can close quicker. I'd have preferred the wolf to keep optimal bonus instead of falloff, but even with this 4 280 II + quake ammo = holy smokes...should be interesting to try. Time will tell if more changing needs to be done, I'll definately want to play around with it as soon as I can. Raptor and Ares Fix
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.31 04:43:00 - [61] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/05/2006 04:44:03 Good stuff. The AF changes all look good to me (and I just bought me an extra Vengeance before the currently-low prices start their inevitable climb ). The Minmatar AFs look very good now, and the Hawk will rock, I have no doubt. Also, the +10% -> +20% warp scramble boost on the Arazu/Lachesis makes me happy, it puts the Gallente recons into competitive territory with the other recons. 40km scramble range with non-faction gear (assuming max skills) is pretty nice. Oh, and the Phoon change is finally in. Yay! All in all, good stuff.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.05.31 04:44:00 - [62] Originally by: Kai Lae People whining about the vengeance should go out back and beat themselves heavily about the head and shoulders. This was the suckiest AF in existance before; it may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread now but it shouldn't be bad. Good armor tank + 3 mid slots (MWD, web, scram) and pulse laser/rocket II isn't the worst thing ever seen. As for the minmatar frigs the jag is faster and therefore I've always seen it as the ship to use the autocannons on because it can close quicker. I'd have preferred the wolf to keep optimal bonus instead of falloff, but even with this 4 280 II + quake ammo = holy smokes...should be interesting to try. Time will tell if more changing needs to be done, I'll definately want to play around with it as soon as I can. Weirda have flown (and beaten just about every frig class ship) with vengeance for long time kai - and will tell you that 4th med would have served it better. regardless - all of these ship getting improvement and that is a great thing... they are not all the way there yet and would have like to seen different direction on (specifically) the vengeance, but you SURELY cannot suggest Weirda to go out back and beat self on head. Weirda like HARD mode - and did everything could to make ships like vengeance and jag work for self (and yes - Sacriledge too, before it was UTTERLY RUINED). unlike so many people in these forum who will just tell you 'this sucks - right click/recycle' Weirda is the opposite. judging by the way you made statement, would figure that would have been you response on the Vengeance. so until you fly for month in the shoe of a 'recycle only' ship and make it work for youself (on TQ) and get solo kills, you likely do not have experience to make judgement of what it is capable of or what should be fit on it (rocket launcher - lol). anyways - now that is out of way, please put big smilies and happyness in there and realize that am only saying that in nicest possible way. you are a very good person and have been carrying raptor/ares torch for long time. they will get their boost someday - but honestly there is nothing that sucks about the Raptor, that is for another thread though... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.31 04:47:00 - [63] Originally by: Weirda ... have been carrying raptor/ares torch for long time. they will get their boost someday I have a dream... someday I will fly my Ares and people won't laugh at me. Someday, my precioussssss, yes someday...
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.05.31 05:41:00 - [64] Originally by: Weirda Weirda have flown (and beaten just about every frig class ship) with vengeance for long time kai - and will tell you that 4th med would have served it better. regardless - all of these ship getting improvement and that is a great thing... they are not all the way there yet and would have like to seen different direction on (specifically) the vengeance, but you SURELY cannot suggest Weirda to go out back and beat self on head. I meant the people who were saying it was fine as is. It's much better now than it was. It could hardly have gotten worse...anyway we'll have to see after some time what the status now is. Raptor and Ares Fix
MrRookie	Posted - 2006.05.31 07:06:00 - [65] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Weirda ... have been carrying raptor/ares torch for long time. they will get their boost someday I have a dream... someday I will fly my Ares and people won't laugh at me. Someday, my precioussssss, yes someday... Pffft stop complaining... it's the only T2 shuttle in the game ________________________________________________
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.31 07:06:00 - [66] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Sarmaul Quote: The Vengeance laser optimal range bonus has been changed to a laser damage bonus. Also, its armor and power output have increased, while sheilds have been decreased. A new low power slot rounds out the changes. Can someone Amarrian tell me if this is good or not? It's good. In this aspect, I'm Amarrian. Vengeance is my favourite AF (even more than Ishkur!). its not ghood at all!! AF NEED to fit their long range weapons for pvp at lest [try an enyo with blasters against frigs and see how far you get, put rails on it and good] basicly its loosing range for damage, imo that was not a boost at all, personaly id consider that as a slight nerf! you need at lest 1 optimal range bonous on a AF thats why the harpy is so nice and the enyo! take away the recharge bonous [that low slot can be used for recharge] and bring back the optimal -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.05.31 07:52:00 - [67] gotta ask this first, you flying amarr gronsak? Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Elaine Threepwood	Posted - 2006.05.31 07:55:00 - [68] Quote: The Typhoon projectile optimal range bonus has been changed to launcher rate of fire bonus. The Wolf projectile optimal range bonus has been changed to a projectile damage bonus. Also, its falloff bonus has been increased to 10% to balance it with other ships of the same class. The Jaguar projectile tracking speed bonus has been changed to a projectile damage bonus. It also has a higher power and cpu output and a new medium power slot. 200mm, 425mm and 800mm AutoCannons have a 50% higher ammunition capacity. Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority now gives bonus to ECM jam strength. Information Warfare Link - Recon Operation now gives bonus to Electronic warfare module range. I think this might just be the best patch ever. I'm going to keep some extra special manlove just for Tux.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:00:00 - [69] Edited by: KilROCK on 31/05/2006 08:01:27 What i don't get is... In this 'whole' roleplaying game.. Why are Gallente command ships getting bonuses to ECM jamming strenght ( bonuses to information gang link ), while they're Caldari ennemies.. Something doesn't add up. I'd rather see Caldari get bonuses to both information and shield warfare links, and Gallente get armored warfare mindlink bonuses. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:02:00 - [70] Contrary to popular beliefs I already like the Jaguar a lot and really think it's a good ship (tho specialized in it's role), but with those changes I love it like no other ..one happy Minmatar
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:04:00 - [71] Originally by: Tiuwaz gotta ask this first, you flying amarr gronsak? Only the gedden and sometimes the zealot Their t1 frigs suck bar the EW crucifier, their AF sucks [harpy, new hawk, enyo ftw] their cruisers suck [thorax rupture ftw] The apoc sucks in that the gedden > apoc in 99% of situations they have some great T2 ships but their T1 is lacking badly vs the other races! The amarr cruisers need a total rework, -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Helmut 314	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:04:00 - [72] Vengeance, nice to see it get a boost. 7 Mid+Lows for tackling and tank. One more than the Retribution. Wow. Isnt it about time to add a secon mid to the Retribution ? JHENR is recruiting. __________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:06:00 - [73] Wait - this patch has gone in already? That'll teach me to go to France for the weekend. Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 24/05/06! Become my Wingman!
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:07:00 - [74] I don't suppose Tux has mentioned how much grid and cpu the Jaguar is gaining? It's just i've been mucking about with some setups this morning, and suffice to say 20 more cpu and I'd be very, very excited Max
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:08:00 - [75] Originally by: Max Teranous I don't suppose Tux has mentioned how much grid and cpu the Jaguar is gaining? It's just i've been mucking about with some setups this morning, and suffice to say 20 more cpu and I'd be very, very excited it should be on test server, log on and see -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:10:00 - [76] Sadly I'm at work Quickfit and forums on work PC 4TW tho ! Max
Darwinia	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:11:00 - [77] Fly them some more, you might get a clue then.. The Punisher is one of the best frigates out there.. for Pve. It can tank more than any other and is a good heavy duty tackler. The Executioner is one of the best t1 tackler for it's money.. It's almost as fast as an interceptor. You never faced an Arbitrator, have you? Let us just say it can be in the Vexor's league. The Omen and the Maller are nothing to sneeze at either. As far the AFs go.. yes, they mostly suck.. but that is mostly due to the small lasers insane fitting req. ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:13:00 - [78] Originally by: Testy Mctest Wait - this patch has gone in already? That'll teach me to go to France for the weekend. no this is coming with the patch on 6th june Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:16:00 - [79] the new AF inequation: minmatar > caldari = gallente > amarr the inty inequation: caldari = gallente = minmatar > amarr (we could argue here, but in general, crow & taranis are most popular, stiletto is 4tw for tackling and claw is still better than crusader... so m3h) the bombers: caldari> minmatar> amarr = gallente, though they all suck covertops: gallente = minmatar > caldari >> amarr Notice the pattern? However i don't see amarr losing much here anyway, so let the patch come, then we will whine some more. (hehe i know weirda flys amarr t2 stuff :P ) Die, die, die.
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:19:00 - [80] The amarr boost will probably come with a calming down of the fitting requirements of small lasers - as someone who uses mainly A/C's, I nearly coughed up a lung when looking at fitting up an amarr interceptor the other week. Max
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:19:00 - [81] Originally by: Tiuwaz no this is coming with the patch on 6th june Ah, good. Im not blind then. Also, I cant explain how much Im looking forward to flying an AF. I never thought I'd say that. Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 24/05/06! Become my Wingman!
PeopleDamager	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:20:00 - [82] Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 30/05/2006 22:56:41 200mm, 425mm and 800mm AutoCannons have a 50% higher ammunition capacity, YARRRRRR!!!!!
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:30:00 - [83] Originally by: PeopleDamager Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 30/05/2006 22:56:41 200mm, 425mm and 800mm AutoCannons have a 50% higher ammunition capacity, YARRRRRR!!!!! Sniff my guns don't fit... i cannot fit 2x shield extenders, mwd, nosf, full gank and stabs on f-aggybond... same for tempest.... I r @ minmatar for it. Time to nerf falloffs on smaller guns too, i think :P Die, die, die.
Voltron	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:35:00 - [84] Knew I trained all 4 race frigs to 5 for a reason, yay minny!!! Volt
Nafri	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:45:00 - [85] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: PeopleDamager Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 30/05/2006 22:56:41 200mm, 425mm and 800mm AutoCannons have a 50% higher ammunition capacity, YARRRRRR!!!!! Sniff my guns don't fit... i cannot fit 2x shield extenders, mwd, nosf, full gank and stabs on f-aggybond... same for tempest.... I r @ minmatar for it. Time to nerf falloffs on smaller guns too, i think :P Well dont laugh, I fear that will be all changes for AC for a long time. Still no use for 800/650er autos. From Dusk till Dawn
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:51:00 - [86] Originally by: KilROCK Edited by: KilROCK on 31/05/2006 08:01:27 What i don't get is... In this 'whole' roleplaying game.. Why are Gallente command ships getting bonuses to ECM jamming strenght ( bonuses to information gang link ), while they're Caldari ennemies.. Something doesn't add up. I'd rather see Caldari get bonuses to both information and shield warfare links, and Gallente get armored warfare mindlink bonuses. QFT! Tuxford, what the hell is up with Information Warfare!? Why nerf it instead of fix it!? New sig coming soonÖ In the next patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with.
Scots Crusader	Posted - 2006.05.31 08:58:00 - [87] \0/. Yay to my beloved CEO Weirda and all the rest of you guys who pushed for these changes. Best go dust of my PVP Wolf, and try and find the Jag I bought soooo long ago but never used. Makes me feel warm inside, that the time spent specialising in Minnie t2 frigs has not been wasted now. ----------------------------------------------- Maturity and wisdom do not occur overnight. Stupidity on the otherhand, can happen in the blink of an eye!!!!
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:09:00 - [88] Originally by: Voltron Knew I trained all 4 race frigs to 5 for a reason, yay minny!!! Volt you and me ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:15:00 - [89] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: KilROCK Edited by: KilROCK on 31/05/2006 08:01:27 What i don't get is... In this 'whole' roleplaying game.. Why are Gallente command ships getting bonuses to ECM jamming strenght ( bonuses to information gang link ), while they're Caldari ennemies.. Something doesn't add up. I'd rather see Caldari get bonuses to both information and shield warfare links, and Gallente get armored warfare mindlink bonuses. QFT! Tuxford, what the hell is up with Information Warfare!? Why nerf it instead of fix it!? Information warfare link - Electronic Superiority This should affect the strenght of all EW modules imo. Tracking disruptor/painter/ECM/Dampeners. Information warfare link - Recon operation As much as i'd like it to affect the 'optimal range' of all EW modules as stated above, i think locking speed is definitly better than optimal range junk. When it comes to a fleet, having a vulture with shield tanking modules is just plain useless. I'd rather have a vulture with information warfare and improve the gang rather than seeing shield tanks more effective. Who even shield tanks in a fleet? Ravens have EW. Scorpions have EW. Anything else? Oh yea, no. (exceptions but yea) Now gallente command ships? When i first saw it.. I was like.. Oh nice, when they release, i sure hope they will be using armored warfare links and have a bonus, but no. A Caldari/ECM related support junk. Granted the effectiveness bonus on command ships need to be reworked, but still. I'd rather have armored warfare 90% of the time. Which brings me to the point where i don't SEE a problem to changing all the command ships bonuses, to a global effectiveness bonus that applies to ALL GANG LINKS. Not any Roleplaying JUNK. Thank you. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Phish1	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:16:00 - [90] A big thanks has to be given to Weirda, Sarmuel, and all the other guys who made these (mostly) fantastic changes happen. looks like minmatar AF pilots (like me) will be partying all week till the changes come (I know i will), and then gert them all lown up in the first fight due to being ****ed out their minds. but hey, that wont happen, the jag is fantastic, and that 4th mid is a long awaited gift from god (Tux), now we have 1 low resistance, and it isnt that low to begin with. im thinking a gistii jag when i can afford it. /me drools cant wait till i get home to strt playing with QF. so many ships, so little time =)
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:18:00 - [91] Yay! Gallenet Recons and command links getting fixed! And the poor 'Phoon too. This allso gave me a reason to train Minnie AFs, somethign that I've wanted to do for a while (tech 2 Rifters just look nice) Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Serj Darek	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:18:00 - [92] Edited by: Serj Darek on 31/05/2006 09:24:52 Finally some love for teh Minmatar! /emote does a little happy dance Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making!
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:24:00 - [93] Sarmaul, could you please say something nice to CCP to get them buff my Cerberus a little more please? Ta. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:24:00 - [94] Edited by: KilROCK on 31/05/2006 09:24:30 Originally by: Jon Xylur Yay! Gallenet Recons and command links getting fixed! And the poor 'Phoon too. This allso gave me a reason to train Minnie AFs, somethign that I've wanted to do for a while (tech 2 Rifters just look nice) Warfare links are far from fixed........ The command ships shouldn't have strictly 'bogus' roleplay related effectiveness bonuses. The problem is more about the command ships than the links. The boost you get from the bonus isn't worth using a command ship for it, other than the fact you can use 3.. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:26:00 - [95] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sarmaul, could you please say something nice to CCP to get them buff my Cerberus a little more please? Ta. I'll go with the trend of bull****ting with 5 stabbed ravens you use (or might be a joke, i hope) and say you don't need any boost for your 4 stabs cerberus. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:37:00 - [96] Vengeance needs to lose that low and gain a mid. Seriously Tux, why are you making every Amarr ship nearly identical?
PeopleDamager	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:42:00 - [97] \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/ \o\\o//o/MINMATAR\o\\o//o/
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:42:00 - [98] WTB Wolf/Jaguar BPOs.... [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:43:00 - [99] Edited by: KilROCK on 31/05/2006 09:44:25 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Vengeance needs to lose that low and gain a mid. Seriously Tux, why are you making every Amarr ship nearly identical? Even tho i never flown that ship... 4/3/4 sounds pretty darn nice. the ship obviously lacks firepower with 3 turret, 4th lows is nice, unless you want a mid to be a better tackler.. Which would make it, quite nice.. As far as the retribution goes, i don't think 5/1/5 is identical to 4/3/4, just the bonuses are the same, and as far as it goes, Vengeance does less damage but tackles... or 'can' tackle If the retribution gets 2 mids and loses an highslot, the vengeance will still be worth using, and different. Oh but wait, maybe the vengeance and sacrilege need their khanid junk back I just can't see why you wouldn't be happy with the vengeance changes. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:52:00 - [100] The Hawk did get the 4 launchers, they just forgot to add it to the patch notes: Linkage ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Weirda	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:54:00 - [101] Edited by: Weirda on 31/05/2006 09:56:04 Originally by: Gronsak take away the recharge bonous [that low slot can be used for recharge] and bring back the optimal are you joking? why would you give us a low just so we can put a cpr in it? for the record weirda preferred a 4th mid and a (new) 4th bonus a 'la resistance (a 'la sacriledge)... while it would still be low damage dealer you tank could get away with just a repper and a plate, 3rd low for more damage/more resistance/more cpu () it would seem you knowledge doesn't translate to amarr... Originally by: Elve Sorrow Vengeance needs to lose that low and gain a mid. Seriously Tux, why are you making every Amarr ship nearly identical? just thought would requote this... obviously it is too late... but DAMN... shedding a tear... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:58:00 - [102] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 31/05/2006 09:58:31 Originally by: KilROCK Edited by: KilROCK on 31/05/2006 09:44:25 Even tho i never flown that ship... 4/3/4 sounds pretty darn nice. the ship obviously lacks firepower with 3 turret, 4th lows is nice, unless you want a mid to be a better tackler.. Which would make it, quite nice.. As far as the retribution goes, i don't think 5/1/5 is identical to 4/3/4, just the bonuses are the same, and as far as it goes, Vengeance does less damage but tackles... or 'can' tackle If the retribution gets 2 mids and loses an highslot, the vengeance will still be worth using, and different. Oh but wait, maybe the vengeance and sacrilege need their khanid junk back I just can't see why you wouldn't be happy with the vengeance changes. Thanks.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.05.31 09:58:00 - [103] Some few points I have to add. Hawk gets four launchers but loses a turret hardpoint, this I think we forgot to put in the patch notes We also forgot to put the tracking bonuses increase in the patch notes, thats happening as well Both of the information links were kind of borked. The electronic superiority one was supposed to give bonus to ewar strength, but it gave bonus to sensor strength which is the same as the sensor integrity one. I tried to fix it so it actually gave to all the ewar modules but there was a problem. At least now it does partly what it was supposed to. Recon operation was supposed to give bonus to scan resolution which is the same as the leadership module so either the module or the skill would override the other one so that bonus didn't make much sense. So we changed it to EWAR module range. I probably have something more to say but can't remember what. _______________

KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:00:00 - [104] Edited by: KilROCK on 31/05/2006 10:01:29 Why is the hawk getting a 5th highslot? When do i get Jaguar with 5?, Ishkur with 5, Vengeance with 5? shesh, Tux the caldari worshipper Originally by: Elve Sorrow Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 31/05/2006 09:58:31 Originally by: KilROCK Edited by: KilROCK on 31/05/2006 09:44:25 Even tho i never flown that ship... 4/3/4 sounds pretty darn nice. the ship obviously lacks firepower with 3 turret, 4th lows is nice, unless you want a mid to be a better tackler.. Which would make it, quite nice.. As far as the retribution goes, i don't think 5/1/5 is identical to 4/3/4, just the bonuses are the same, and as far as it goes, Vengeance does less damage but tackles... or 'can' tackle If the retribution gets 2 mids and loses an highslot, the vengeance will still be worth using, and different. Oh but wait, maybe the vengeance and sacrilege need their khanid junk back I just can't see why you wouldn't be happy with the vengeance changes. Thanks. Oh cmon, it's not hard to know the slightest bit how it performs without flying one. I'm sure you fly it all the time, it's your favorite ship and you can't undock without being in one. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:00:00 - [105] re: the Vengeance I think most people are happy with the changes. They sold like hotcakes today. After reading the patchnotes, I bought 2 from Rens at 9.5m each. There were 6 more at that price and about 8 more in the 10-11m range. This evening, only 2 were on the Heimatar market, at 16m each! -- [THARS] is recruiting Originally by: Mephysto solo-mining in a 0.4 system? Its wrong NOT to pod you...
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:02:00 - [106] So now there's 6 11 slot AFs, and 2 10 slotters? Yeah sounds awfully balanced... ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
boost lasers	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:02:00 - [107] Originally by: Tuxford Some few points I have to add. Hawk gets four launchers but loses a turret hardpoint, this I think we forgot to put in the patch notes We also forgot to put the tracking bonuses increase in the patch notes, thats happening as well Both of the information links were kind of borked. The electronic superiority one was supposed to give bonus to ewar strength, but it gave bonus to sensor strength which is the same as the sensor integrity one. I tried to fix it so it actually gave to all the ewar modules but there was a problem. At least now it does partly what it was supposed to. Recon operation was supposed to give bonus to scan resolution which is the same as the leadership module so either the module or the skill would override the other one so that bonus didn't make much sense. So we changed it to EWAR module range. I probably have something more to say but can't remember what. Hey tuxo, can you bump the Vengeance cap recharge bonus to 7.5%? It is one of the 'lesser' bonus's like tracking/falloff so imo it should be increased. One cap relay on any other AF will equal the Vengeance's bonus at lvl4. There is no mod that will give you 50% falloff that you'd find on a Wolf. ____________________________________________________ __
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:05:00 - [108] Originally by: KilROCK Why is the hawk getting a 5th highslot? Its not? Originally by: KilROCK Oh cmon, it's not hard to know the slightest bit how it performs without flying one. I'm sure you fly it all the time, it's your favorite ship and you can't undock without being in one. No, i dont fly it anymore because its pointless. Im sorry, tackling? Ill just use an Interdictor, do 4km/sec, have 7 guns and not have to deal with silly WCS. It's now a silly Retribution rip-off - less damage, less tank but gains 2 mids. Whereas it shouldve just gained a single mid, kept its three lows and made it different from the Retribution.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:06:00 - [109] Originally by: Gariuys So now there's 6 11 slot AFs, and 2 10 slotters? Yeah sounds awfully balanced... The only 10 slotter is the Ishkur and are you seriously gonna tell me that its underpowered. _______________

KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:07:00 - [110] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: KilROCK Why is the hawk getting a 5th highslot? Its not? The Hawk launcher rate of fire bonus has been changed to missile kinetic damage bonus, and the hybrid optimal bonus has been changed to missile velocity bonus. It also has a higher power output and a new high power slot. Reading ability, you lost points there? Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: KilROCK Oh cmon, it's not hard to know the slightest bit how it performs without flying one. I'm sure you fly it all the time, it's your favorite ship and you can't undock without being in one. No, i dont fly it anymore because its pointless. Im sorry, tackling? Ill just use an Interdictor, do 4km/sec, have 7 guns and not have to deal with silly WCS. It's now a silly Retribution rip-off - less damage, less tank but gains 2 mids. Whereas it shouldve just gained a single mid, kept its three lows and made it different from the Retribution. what would you do with a extra mid? Wouldn't you just use the retribution if it gained an extra mids. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:07:00 - [111] Originally by: boost lasers Hey tuxo, can you bump the Vengeance cap recharge bonus to 7.5%? It is one of the 'lesser' bonus's like tracking/falloff so imo it should be increased. One cap relay on any other AF will equal the Vengeance's bonus at lvl4. There is no mod that will give you 50% falloff that you'd find on a Wolf. Bingo, but it should be 10% to be inline with the the Wolf's falloff bonus. -- [THARS] is recruiting Originally by: Mephysto solo-mining in a 0.4 system? Its wrong NOT to pod you...
Luc Boye	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:08:00 - [112] Edited by: Luc Boye on 31/05/2006 10:09:08 Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Gariuys So now there's 6 11 slot AFs, and 2 10 slotters? Yeah sounds awfully balanced... The only 10 slotter is the Ishkur and are you seriously gonna tell me that its underpowered. Well yeah, considering the other AF's don't lose their guns when warping out Also how's this for fixing blasters by boosting AC? I might be a bit of lowbrow but I don't get it
boost lasers	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:08:00 - [113] Originally by: Elve Sorrow No, i dont fly it anymore because its pointless. Im sorry, tackling? Ill just use an Interdictor, do 4km/sec, have 7 guns and not have to deal with silly WCS. It's now a silly Retribution rip-off - less damage, less tank but gains 2 mids. It shouldve gotten a fourth mid, kept its three lows and made it different from the Retribution. Yep, it's the problem with most Khanid ships. They do the exact same thing Amarr ships do just worse or slightly different I'd rather have the Vengeance be a missile based armor tanking ship then be a sub-par laser boat. Oh no tho, can't have that, missiles are reserved for the all mightly Caldari...oh wait, they get turret boats to. ____________________________________________________ __
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:08:00 - [114] Originally by: Darwinia Fly them some more, you might get a clue then.. The Punisher is one of the best frigates out there.. for Pve. It can tank more than any other and is a good heavy duty tackler. The Executioner is one of the best t1 tackler for it's money.. It's almost as fast as an interceptor. You never faced an Arbitrator, have you? Let us just say it can be in the Vexor's league. The Omen and the Maller are nothing to sneeze at either. As far the AFs go.. yes, they mostly suck.. but that is mostly due to the small lasers insane fitting req. WTB punisher with > 2 mid slots !! its slow, its got 2 slots, vigil, rifter ftw, kestrel/merlin have their uses, and at lest the tristan and incursus have 3 mids again wtb executioner with > 2 mid slots, its not a great tackler when 3 slot is so much better! arbitractor is good, the maller and omen are a joke compaired to the rupture, thorax, caracal, moa all t1 amarr ships atm seem to be **e compaired to the other races bar the gedden! -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent ***s
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:10:00 - [115] Originally by: KilROCK The Hawk launcher rate of fire bonus has been changed to missile kinetic damage bonus, and the hybrid optimal bonus has been changed to missile velocity bonus. It also has a higher power output and a new high power slot. Reading ability, you lost points there? Wow, sorry if i go by the Database instead of Patchnotes where half the changes are missing. Originally by: KilROCK what would you do with a extra mid? Wouldn't you just use the retribution if it gained an extra mids. Yes, i would. But the Retribution isnt gaining a mid, because if it was im sure it wouldve been in this patch.
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:11:00 - [116] Originally by: Tuxford Hawk gets four launchers but loses a turret hardpoint, this I think we forgot to put in the patch notes We also forgot to put the tracking bonuses increase in the patch notes, thats happening as well Cool. Tracking boost = nice. As for the 4th mid on the vengeance, Weirda I'll assume youre not tripping on household cleaner when you say that, by virtue of youve flown the ship more than me... i find the current TQ vengeance revolting tbfh, id rather fly an ares. ive tried and tried but i just cant make myself like the idea of a 4th mid over a 4th low. I cant think of many things i can do with that 4th low but none which id rather do which involve a 4th mid. Meh, I just dont see it, sorry. Either way, more grid/cpu = good. Though i would have switched the cap bonus for the punisher resists bonus. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:12:00 - [117] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: KilROCK The Hawk launcher rate of fire bonus has been changed to missile kinetic damage bonus, and the hybrid optimal bonus has been changed to missile velocity bonus. It also has a higher power output and a new high power slot. Reading ability, you lost points there? Wow, sorry if i go by the Database instead of Patchnotes where half the changes are missing. Oh geez, Sorry if we're not looking at the same things. Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: KilROCK what would you do with a extra mid? Wouldn't you just use the retribution if it gained an extra mids. Yes, i would. But the Retribution isnt gaining a mid, because if it was im sure it wouldve been in this patch. Everyone is already whining about the retribution for another midslot. Who wanted vengeance borked into a wannabe retribution? Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:13:00 - [118] Originally by: KilROCK Everyone is already whining about the retribution for another midslot. Who wanted vengeance borked into a wannabe retribution? Tuxford?
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:22:00 - [119] well its a great patch with lots of <3 Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:23:00 - [120] Oh, and exactly how much grid are the Veng/Jag getting? -- [THARS] is recruiting Originally by: Mephysto solo-mining in a 0.4 system? Its wrong NOT to pod you...
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:28:00 - [121] Kudos to CCP for NOT breaking Vengeance :) Nice boost
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:32:00 - [122] Edited by: Sarmaul on 31/05/2006 10:35:50 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sarmaul, could you please say something nice to CCP to get them buff my Cerberus a little more please? Ta. seeing as it's long-range damage output is currently on-par with other HAC's close-range damage output, if I were you I would be doing everything I could to stop tux looking at it edit: typos Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
boost lasers	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:34:00 - [123] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sarmaul, could you please say something nice to CCP to get them buff my Cerberus a little more please? Ta. seeing as it's long-range damage output is currently on-par with other HAC's close-range balance output, if I were you I would be doing everything I could to stop tux looking at it qft Jenny should stop whining, really ____________________________________________________ __
Akihura Dralamputra	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:38:00 - [124] All these bonus and 4 launcher to hawk ? Tux i love you ! Hoo brb, i just wet my panty...
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:40:00 - [125] Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 31/05/2006 10:35:50 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sarmaul, could you please say something nice to CCP to get them buff my Cerberus a little more please? Ta. seeing as it's long-range damage output is currently on-par with other HAC's close-range damage output, if I were you I would be doing everything I could to stop tux looking at it edit: typos thx Sarmaul, I'll look into it oh dang wrong account ;P Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.05.31 10:52:00 - [126] I can't believe people are whining about losing the vengeance's range bonus. It was garbage. It needs a damage bonus and the fourth low will give it a stronger tank than the retribution.
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:08:00 - [127] Originally by: Tuxford Both of the information links were kind of borked. The electronic superiority one was supposed to give bonus to ewar strength, but it gave bonus to sensor strength which is the same as the sensor integrity one. I tried to fix it so it actually gave to all the ewar modules but there was a problem. At least now it does partly what it was supposed to. Recon operation was supposed to give bonus to scan resolution which is the same as the leadership module so either the module or the skill would override the other one so that bonus didn't make much sense. So we changed it to EWAR module range. I probably have something more to say but can't remember what. Then it's time to do something about it. The way Information Warfare is going to work right now is akin to giving the Apocalypse a shield tanking bonus without changing slots etc. The most RP way to shift the current Warfares without removing Information Warfare and completely remaking them and still keep racial identity is: Amarr - Armored Caldari - Info Gallente - Skirmish Minmatar - Siege Especially seing how Minmatar are being shifted towards shield tanking (in fact, we need more than one shield tanking race in EVE!) As a suggestion for a remake, though... Hmm... SKILL - Tactical Warfare - +2% Tracking per level * Tactical Warfare Link - Targeting Coordinator (1% Damage, yes 1% for a maximum of about +10% with max skills and implant and Eos) * Tactical Warfare Link - Energy Recycler (-3% turret capacitor use) * Tactical Warfare Link - Stabilization Diagnostic (3% Falloff) New sig coming soonÖ In the next patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:11:00 - [128] Get your dirty gallente hands off my skirmish warfare links. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:12:00 - [129] Originally by: Sarmaul Get your dirty gallente hands off my skirmish warfare links. Yar, I know Minnies wouldn't want to part with Skirmish ;) New sig coming soonÖ In the next patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:14:00 - [130] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Sarmaul Get your dirty gallente hands off my skirmish warfare links. Yar, I know Minnies wouldn't want to part with Skirmish ;) My suggestion > yours Bonus to all Gang links module effectivness. No roleplay junk. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
babylonstew	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:21:00 - [131] Originally by: KilROCK Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Sarmaul Get your dirty gallente hands off my skirmish warfare links. Yar, I know Minnies wouldn't want to part with Skirmish ;) My suggestion > yours Bonus to all Gang links module effectivness. No roleplay junk. personally, id prefer a small bonus to all links, and a greater bonus to race specific, that way, you get the options to pick and choose but at slightly lesser benifet? Forum advice Linkage
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:22:00 - [132] Originally by: KilROCK Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Sarmaul Get your dirty gallente hands off my skirmish warfare links. Yar, I know Minnies wouldn't want to part with Skirmish ;) My suggestion > yours Bonus to all Gang links module effectivness. No roleplay junk. That's the easy way, but has a few drawbacks. One of those drawbacks is one of those things CCP tend to look at - no RP ;) Another drawback is that everyone will fly around with Armored Warfare mods. Maybe the sig radius Skirmish Warfare mod, but not much else. New sig coming soonÖ In the next patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with.
Bacchuss	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:25:00 - [133] so, ishkur will have 1 less slot then all other? wtf ************************************ "What you gonna do, when I come for yoU?!" ************************************
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:25:00 - [134] Edited by: Kery Nysell on 31/05/2006 11:25:52 Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: Darwinia Fly them some more, you might get a clue then.. The Punisher is one of the best frigates out there.. for Pve. It can tank more than any other and is a good heavy duty tackler. The Executioner is one of the best t1 tackler for it's money.. It's almost as fast as an interceptor. You never faced an Arbitrator, have you? Let us just say it can be in the Vexor's league. The Omen and the Maller are nothing to sneeze at either. As far the AFs go.. yes, they mostly suck.. but that is mostly due to the small lasers insane fitting req. WTB punisher with > 2 mid slots !! its slow, its got 2 slots, vigil, rifter ftw, kestrel/merlin have their uses, and at lest the tristan and incursus have 3 mids again wtb executioner with > 2 mid slots, its not a great tackler when 3 slot is so much better! arbitractor is good, the maller and omen are a joke compaired to the rupture, thorax, caracal, moa all t1 amarr ships atm seem to be **e compaired to the other races bar the gedden! My dear Gronsak, you missed 6 very important letters in Darwinia's post ... The Punisher is one of the best frigates out there.. for Pve.** You don't need more than 1 mid slot for PvEing, slap an AB in there, and you're good. I agree that PvP in another matter, but since I don't do that, I'll let the experts talk.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:26:00 - [135] Originally by: Bacchuss so, ishkur will have 1 less slot then all other? wtf I agree, get rid of the drones and drone bonus and give it an extra slot. Ishkur is more then fine. - _____
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:28:00 - [136] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: KilROCK Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Sarmaul Get your dirty gallente hands off my skirmish warfare links. Yar, I know Minnies wouldn't want to part with Skirmish ;) My suggestion > yours Bonus to all Gang links module effectivness. No roleplay junk. That's the easy way, but has a few drawbacks. One of those drawbacks is one of those things CCP tend to look at - no RP ;) Another drawback is that everyone will fly around with Armored Warfare mods. Maybe the sig radius Skirmish Warfare mod, but not much else. I'm not training for another cruiser 5 to use armored warfare links... It's not trying to get a shortcut, Gallente shouldn't even have the information links effectiveness bonus if we 'look at it' roleplaying wise. But then, Shield/Info fits Caldari, and that makes two race with Armored.. I wouldn't give minmatar infomation and gallente skirmish like you suggested. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:29:00 - [137] Originally by: Bacchuss so, ishkur will have 1 less slot then all other? wtf Ishkur has Real Ultimate Drone Power. It flips out and kills stuff, all the time. Seriously, that one less slot is more than compensated by the drones. I fly an Ishkur a lot myself, and I don't want to give it any more slots. It would be overpowered.
Bacchuss	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:32:00 - [138] not saying that ishkur isnt fine, just aint fair that it have 1 less slot ************************************ "What you gonna do, when I come for yoU?!" ************************************
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:32:00 - [139] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Bacchuss so, ishkur will have 1 less slot then all other? wtf Ishkur has Real Ultimate Drone Power. It flips out and kills stuff, all the time. Seriously, that one less slot is more than compensated by the drones. I fly an Ishkur a lot myself, and I don't want to give it any more slots. It would be overpowered. it was the ishkur that resulted in weirda's assault frig posts. In general, ships that get omgbbqdrone bonuses lose a slot. With the bottom 4 assault frigs (hawk, jag, ishkur and the rubbish amarr one) all having the same amount of slots, it seemed unfair that their shoud be punished. Hence, the Hawk, Jag and The Rubbish Amarr one are all getting an extra slot to bring them inline with the top 4 assault frigs, while the ishkur doesn't get it due it it's omgwtfbbqdrone bonus. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Bacchuss	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:33:00 - [140] btw, drones are stupid and easy to loose ************************************ "What you gonna do, when I come for yoU?!" ************************************
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:33:00 - [141] Originally by: Bacchuss not saying that ishkur isnt fine, just aint fair that it have 1 less slot read the post above Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Redblade	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:34:00 - [142] 200mm, 425mm and 800mm AutoCannons have a 50% higher ammunition capacity. This is all good but what about artys, 1400's/1200's needs some loving in that department aswell.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:34:00 - [143] Originally by: Sarmaul Hence, the Hawk, Jag and The Rubbish Amarr one It has a name you know - _____
MOS DEF	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:35:00 - [144] This thread just shows that people are whining whatever gets done. I bought a stack of vengeances. :) No it wont be the uber super duper AF but he FIXED it at least. It just went from utter garbage onbe wouldn't even use over a tech II fitted velator to a really realy nice tackler with some punch!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:35:00 - [145] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul Hence, the Hawk, Jag and The Rubbish Amarr one It has a name you know I always get the retri and veng mixed up, so if I just say The Rubbish Amarr One people know what I'm on about :) Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:42:00 - [146] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul Hence, the Hawk, Jag and The Rubbish Amarr one It has a name you know But it is irrelevant:P Ship is still inferior to crusader. I still can fit crusader "drunken" style, have same medslot abilities and more firepower. Oh and faster, smaller sig and uh oh, more firepower. I would have worse resists, but i think i can compensate those with big fat plate(and still warp 2x faster:P ) Not to mention that it is way cheaper still. I wonder what idiot is buying vengeance for 17-19mil since you can get crusader for 8 and do everything better. Khanid kingdom is close to blood raiders territory and they are in constant conflicts, so 20% less cap drain from nosferatus / lvl (or 20% web immunity or something like that)would really make nice bonus, this now it just sad. Meh i'm close to rant, i will stop now. Die, die, die.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:42:00 - [147] Originally by: MOS DEF This thread just shows that people are whining whatever gets done. I bought a stack of vengeances. :) No it wont be the uber super duper AF but he FIXED it at least. It just went from utter garbage onbe wouldn't even use over a tech II fitted velator to a really realy nice tackler with some punch! Yup. The new Vengeance may not be the absolute hottest AF out there, but no longer is it a waste of hangar space. Bought an extra one myself, just before the prices doubled just a while ago And hey, it looks cool. Black is the new... black.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:42:00 - [148] See the thing is with Amarr is that they don't really have a "flavor" like the other races. The Caldari have missiles and rails (people have different opinions about which is the caldari weapon system). Gallante have hybrids and drones and minmatar have well speed. Amarr on the other hand tank and gank that makes it pretty hard to make to combat ships that are similar but yet different, this holds especially true for Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships. One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. _______________

LUKEC	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:45:00 - [149] Originally by: Tuxford See the thing is with Amarr is that they don't really have a "flavor" like the other races. The Caldari have missiles and rails (people have different opinions about which is the caldari weapon system). Gallante have hybrids and drones and minmatar have well speed. Amarr on the other hand tank and gank that makes it pretty hard to make to combat ships that are similar but yet different, this holds especially true for Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships. One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. Well as i posted above, give khanid ships some sort of flavour... like nosf or web immunity/lvl. It would make sense from roleplaying perspective and since for amarr, cap = life, it would make their ships useful again. (me hides his vampadomi from sacrilege :P ) Die, die, die.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:47:00 - [150] Originally by: Tuxford One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. Yeah, I can see the reasoning. But on the other hand, pretty much everyone else has to train multiple weapon systems if they want to use all their racial ships -- why should Amarr be different in this regard? I think a missile-spewing armor tanker would fit in well with things, and would probably be pretty popular (assuming they got proper missile bonuses, not half-assed ones). For example, I think the old missile-using Sacrilege was a lot cooler than the new one. The new one is "yet another amarr armor tanking laser boat". As you note, it's really hard to make armor tankin laser boats that differ from each other. So why not go in the direction things were before, make a select few Amarr ships into proper missiles + armor ships. The people who absulutely refuse to train missiles would still have a huge selection of other ships to choose from, the same situation as all the other races. But it would give some choices for the people who find lasers + armor just a bit boring and limiting.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:48:00 - [151] Originally by: Tuxford So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. the thing is, I'm sure the majority would be happy if the Rubbish Amarr AF and the sacri were changed into missile spamming armor tankers. Minmatar need to train up: Drones Shield Tank Armour Tank Guns Missiles Navigation In order to be effective in all of their ships. Amarr need what, Drones, Armor Tank and Guns to be good (navigation gives nice bonuses but isn't essential). Gallente get Drones, Guns, Armor Tank and Navigation (need to mwd in quick), and Caldari get Guns, Missiles and Shield tank. Making Amarr train up a bit of the missile catagory wouldn't be a bad thing, and it would give a role to the ships that needed them other than "rather bad laser platforms". By combining weapons that use no cap with ships with huge cap you let them run beefy tanks, which I thought was the whole reason CCP invented Khanid ships. While you're here - when are minmatar gonna get some dedicated missile ships? Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Tassi	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:49:00 - [152] Originally by: Tuxford See the thing is with Amarr is that they don't really have a "flavor" like the other races. The Caldari have missiles and rails (people have different opinions about which is the caldari weapon system). Gallante have hybrids and drones and minmatar have well speed. Amarr on the other hand tank and gank that makes it pretty hard to make to combat ships that are similar but yet different, this holds especially true for Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships. One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. Delete vengeance, give retribution another mid and everybody is happy.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:50:00 - [153] Originally by: Tuxford and minmatar have well speed That there kind of sums up the entire reason why we have so many gimp ships - even the Devs don't really know what we're meant to be doing. Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 24/05/06! Become my Wingman!
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:51:00 - [154] Originally by: Sarmaul and Caldari get Guns, Missiles,Electronics, Navigation and Shield tank because they need to do EWAR and their ships are very bulky. Takes ages to align or turn. Corrected for accuracy. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:53:00 - [155] Edited by: keepiru on 31/05/2006 11:53:45 Mmmmmmrrreeeh!!!! Yes. If you were to go ALL THE WAY towards making khanid armor-tanked missile boats - and i DO mean all the way, not some half-assed split-weapon armor-tanked shield-heavy POS with no grid or cpu to speak of - it. would. be. good. there, i said it. Tbh, the thought of a double-repped injector-fed missile-spewing sacrilege makes my pants glow with an awesome power. Though the thought of EM missile damage bonus makes me cry. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:54:00 - [156] Originally by: Sarmaul the thing is, I'm sure the majority would be happy if the Rubbish Amarr AF and the sacri were changed into missile spamming armor tankers. qft More then that it's something that is really fresh and interesting, an armor tanking missile boat. - _____
Serj Darek	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:55:00 - [157] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Tuxford and minmatar have well speed That there kind of sums up the entire reason why we have so many gimp ships - even the Devs don't really know what we're meant to be doing. QFT Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making!
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:55:00 - [158] Originally by: Tuxford See the thing is with Amarr is that they don't really have a "flavor" like the other races. The Caldari have missiles and rails (people have different opinions about which is the caldari weapon system). Gallante have hybrids and drones and minmatar have well speed. Amarr on the other hand tank and gank that makes it pretty hard to make to combat ships that are similar but yet different, this holds especially true for Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships. One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. There were soooo many very good ideas how to improve the Sac and vengeance before you changed them. Why didnt you implent some of those? Sac with EM missile damage bonus and RoF for launchers Vengeance with cap recharge and damage bonus list goes on..... Its just sad that the Sac deals very poor damage cuz you cant fit heavy pulse on it. See here: Deimos can fit electrons and Ions fine cuz of the double damage bonus, no neutrons due to grid issues, balanced (light tank if you want neutrons) Ishtar can fit 5x medium nos and a good tank, balanced Eagle can fit 250mm II and 2x heavy launchers and a tank, balanced Cerberus can fit 5x heavy launchers and a good tank, balanced Zealot can fit 4 heavy pulse and a strong tank, perfectly balanced Sac has a great tank but cant fit even a combo of 3x heavy pulse II/med nos/launchers. If you could give us/me some math of the Sacs damage output so we/I can understand your changes, then I¦ll shut up and everyone can be happy. Ship lovers click here

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:55:00 - [159] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Yeah, I can see the reasoning. But on the other hand, pretty much everyone else has to train multiple weapon systems if they want to use all their racial ships -- why should Amarr be different in this regard? Yeah I agree with that partly. The thing is that missiles don't become a secondary weapon system for Amarr until in the elite ships. The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants so you might imagine the total self control I'm showing by not just going ahead and do this ... well I would need to clear this with some other devs first. As for nos and web defense then currently its not in my power to do that. We've thought about some kind of "cap resistance" but thats still in some sort of "brain storming" stage. _______________

Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:55:00 - [160] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Sarmaul and Caldari get Guns, Missiles,Electronics, Navigation and Shield tank because they need to do EWAR and their ships are very bulky. Takes ages to align or turn. Corrected for accuracy. everyone has electronics (amarr "need" to do tracking disrupting, gallente "need" to do sensor damping and nobody really needs to do target painting but that's besides the point), your ships do not rely on speed - they are long-ranged ships. And testy, nobody knows what minmatar ships are supposed to do. If we were truely meant to have fast ships we wouldn't end up with gimped mass that lets other races go faster with mwds and abs. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:56:00 - [161] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul the thing is, I'm sure the majority would be happy if the Rubbish Amarr AF and the sacri were changed into missile spamming armor tankers. qft More then that it's something that is really fresh and interesting, an armor tanking missile boat. looks like you might get your wish ;) Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:57:00 - [162] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Tuxford and minmatar have well speed That there kind of sums up the entire reason why we have so many gimp ships - even the Devs don't really know what we're meant to be doing. LOL no its not that. Speed just isn't a different weapon system. Minmatar do need to train for more weapon systems than any other race but speed doesn't really exclude them using weapons, so its a flavor that isn't as easily explained as drones and missiles/rails _______________

Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:57:00 - [163] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Sarmaul and Caldari get Guns, Missiles,Electronics, Navigation and Shield tank because they need to do EWAR and their ships are very bulky. Takes ages to align or turn. Corrected for accuracy. I wouldn't call that accurate. More like a whine (as usual). - _____
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:57:00 - [164] Originally by: keepiru [ Yes. If you were to go ALL THE WAY towards making khanid armor-tanked missile boats - and i DO mean all the way, not some half-assed split-weapon armor-tanked shield-heavy POS with no grid or cpu to speak of - it. would. be. good. there, i said it. Yeah. No half-assed half-missile-half-guns bonuses, but proper missile boni and lots of launchers. With weapons that need no cap and have good range, you could run up a hefty tank. And most importantly, it would be something different and interesting. All the missile boats in the game currently are shield tankers.
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 11:58:00 - [165] Originally by: Tuxford The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants so you might imagine the total self control I'm showing by not just going ahead and do this Its zen trainign they gave you at the sikrit tibetan monastery where eve devs are trained before they let you loose onto the forums, isnt it? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:00:00 - [166] Originally by: Alex Harumichi And most importantly, it would be something different and interesting. All the missile boats in the game currently are shield tankers. Which is kind of why so many people are excited about the tier-3 caldari - very large shield-tanked gunboat (pest doesent really count, i think we can all agree there). ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:00:00 - [167] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Sarmaul and Caldari get Guns, Missiles,Electronics, Navigation and Shield tank because they need to do EWAR and their ships are very bulky. Takes ages to align or turn. Corrected for accuracy. I wouldn't call that accurate. More like a whine (as usual). I hardly whine or almost never whine in Ship and Mods forums. I just let you guys do it. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:02:00 - [168] Edited by: Meridius on 31/05/2006 12:04:35 Originally by: Tuxford Minmatar do need to train for more weapon systems than any other race Have to disagree here. Minnies best ships just use projectiles, they don't depend on drones or missiles ever really. IE. Rifter with guns guns guns Rupture with guns guns and some nos Stabber with guns guns guns Tempest with guns guns and some nos Vagabond with guns guns guns guns guns Wolf/Jaguar...guns guns guns The Typhoon is the exception but well, it's just 1 ship and tbh, not really worth training up drones/missiles for. They do have to learn shield/armor tanking tho. - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:02:00 - [169] New Sacri: 6/4/5, 5 launchers, 4 turrets Amarr Cruiser: 10% energy turret cap use, 5% armour resists Heavy Assault: 10% launcher velocity and 5% launcher rof (NO EM MISSILE BONUS!!!!) People who want to use turrets can still do so and have the same damage output as a maller. People who want to use missiles can do so and get a 25% rof bonus (which is better than a 25% damage bonus). Also, the 10% launcher velocity instead of flight time will allow it to hit targets quicker and hit quicker targets (you might need to read that a couple of times). In a launcher configuration it will have 1300 cap devoted entirely to armour tanking, and due to the low powergrid needs of missile launchers it can fit multiple reps and cap boosters. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:03:00 - [170] No, no, no. Please no more half-assed mixed weapon ships! If you want to make khanid good as missile boats, make them goddamn missile boats! split weapons = kthnxdie slaps sarmaul ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Astrum Ludus	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:04:00 - [171] Originally by: Tuxford So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. I'd be furious lol Changes seem okay to me, but then I don't have the depth of experience to really know why the Veng was so woeful in the first place tbh. The thing about Amarr is that you need so many Gunnery skills to come close to Missiles in PvE making us train missiles for a group of our ships just seems like a spit in the eye. I don't really mind the way T1 Amarr ships go atm, biased towards tank or gank, even if that doesn't make them very distinct. If the Retri is Gank I'd take the Veng as Tackle/Tank, maybe give it another mid put some total cap bonuses on there, like a small Apoc This is after all the way the rest of their ships go. /me prepares to be shot down in flames
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:05:00 - [172] Originally by: Meridius Have to disagree here. then prahaps you would like to pledge your support for turning the vagabond into a 4k/s missile spamming monster? Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:06:00 - [173] Originally by: keepiru No, no, no. Please no more half-assed mixed weapon ships! If you want to make khanid good as missile boats, make them goddamn missile boats! split weapons = kthnxdie slaps sarmaul all hacs inherit the bonuses of their t1 ship. not much I can do about it. At least I gave it 5 launchers (same as the cerb) and all of the hac bonuses apply to them. Btw, half-assed split-weapon ships are ships like the phoon and rapier which get half their highs devoted to one weapon and the other half devoted to another. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Gripen	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:12:00 - [174] Edited by: Gripen on 31/05/2006 12:12:14 Please, hands off Vengeance!!! Before incoming patch I considered it to be SECOND BEST AF in game for the job I use assault frigs for (heavy tackling). Even with additional low slot it's a nerf imho and that is why: 25% damage bonus in DPS term is roughly equal to single heat sink (T2 heat sink gives 22.9% DPS boost). To get additional 50% to range you'll have to fit 3 tracking enhancers (1.15^3=1.520875) but if you take into account stacking penalty 3 enhancers will give about 41.2% more range. After this change Vengeance will be the only turret AF without range bonus and without it pulses will be completly useless. Even if increased CPU\Grid will allow Vengeance to fit Medium Beams without MAPC they'll do less damage than pulses do now. Even more, beams have much lower tracking than pulses and to compensate this I'll have to fit web instead of EW I was using in second med. For me this change means: -Lower DPS -One more low slot instead of med (will have to fit web) -Ability to shoot little further with Aurora instead of ability to do more damage with Conflagration.
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:14:00 - [175] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Sarmaul New Sacri: 6/4/5, 5 launchers, 4 turrets Amarr Cruiser: 10% energy turret cap use, 5% armour resists Heavy Assault: 10% launcher velocity and 5% launcher rof (NO EM MISSILE BONUS!!!!) People who want to use turrets can still do so and have the same damage output as a maller. People who want to use missiles can do so and get a 25% rof bonus (which is better than a 25% damage bonus). Also, the 10% launcher velocity instead of flight time will allow it to hit targets quicker and hit quicker targets (you might need to read that a couple of times). In a launcher configuration it will have 1300 cap devoted entirely to armour tanking, and due to the low powergrid needs of missile launchers it can fit multiple reps and cap boosters. Sarmaul for President! I would love something like that, and would try to buy a bunch of them before the prices skyrocketed due to demand. I like the idea that you can use it as a turret boat if you absolutelu have to, that looks very versatile... and any ship which can fit multiple good setups is almost always better than the ship with just one cookie-cutter setup. The best thing: it would be totally different from the Zealot, finally giving the Amarr what the other races have had for quite a long time: two different ships, for different tastes and roles. Currently there's just two variants of laser armorboat, which is a bit "meh". I agree. Ship lovers click here
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:17:00 - [176] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 31/05/2006 12:18:19 Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Alex Harumichi Yeah, I can see the reasoning. But on the other hand, pretty much everyone else has to train multiple weapon systems if they want to use all their racial ships -- why should Amarr be different in this regard? Yeah I agree with that partly. The thing is that missiles don't become a secondary weapon system for Amarr until in the elite ships. Thats not exactly true, afaict the Inquisitor is a T1 ship And I don't know how much the Augoror is used, but I have yet to see one in space, so that might be a candidate for a T1 missile cruiser for Amarr without upsetting anyone (It does not have a laser cap bonus anyway, so changing the highslots to missiles would make sense too) And lastly, missiles are easy to train anyway, it will not break anyones back if they need missiles to fully enjoy both their T2 ship variants imho. So please go ahead and make Khanid into armortanking missile boats. It is not like the amarr sheep will use the current bastard ships even with the slight boosts they got, so it really could only increase their use. I will start a collection for a Tuxford Monument in Khanid Prime if you do ;) --------- Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:18:00 - [177] Originally by: Gripen Before incoming patch I considered it to be SECOND BEST AF in game for the job I use assault frigs for (heavy tackling). Thats what I was trying to say earlier, but as usual, all the sheep can see is that they want it to shoot stuff with gunz. Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 24/05/06! Become my Wingman!
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:19:00 - [178] Amarr 2x laser ships Gallente 1x drone and 1x rail/blaster ship Caldari 1x missile and 1x rail/blaster(!) ship Minmatar 1x AC and 1x howi ship Ship lovers click here
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:20:00 - [179] I would love for khanid to turn into missile boats!
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:20:00 - [180] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 31/05/2006 12:21:32 Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 31/05/2006 12:04:35 Originally by: Tuxford Minmatar do need to train for more weapon systems than any other race Have to disagree here. Minnies best ships just use projectiles, they don't depend on drones or missiles ever really. IE. Rifter with guns guns guns Rupture with guns guns and some nos Stabber with guns guns guns Tempest with guns guns and some nos Vagabond with guns guns guns guns guns Wolf/Jaguar...guns guns guns The Typhoon is the exception but well, it's just 1 ship and tbh, not really worth training up drones/missiles for. They do have to learn shield/armor tanking tho. you know thats a very selective view. Youre forgetting the cyclone, rapier and typhoon on purpose and mention "nos" which is a default item. Sadly "nos" dont need a sepcial slot, the original ships have missiles and turret slots. Most minmatar have a forced mix of those 2 components. To get the full dmg output of all interceptors, dreadsm cruisers and bs you MUST train missiles. Minmatars medslots and lack of tankability often force ppl to use ecm not in the function of a pure jamming boat but to imrpove the respective ships tank. Ontop many ships qualify with a nice dronebay (eventho no special ship is dedicated to that role) to train up those skills to get more out of your ship.
Frools	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:27:00 - [181] Originally by: Kcel Chim To get the full dmg output of all interceptors, dreadsm cruisers and bs you MUST train missiles. well technically if you want the full damage output of the: malediction omen prophecy sacrilege you have to train missiles too, but a lot of people just fit a nos
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:32:00 - [182] Originally by: Sarmaul New Sacri: 6/4/5, 5 launchers, 4 turrets Amarr Cruiser: 10% energy turret cap use, 5% armour resists Heavy Assault: 10% launcher velocity and 5% launcher rof (NO EM MISSILE BONUS!!!!) People who want to use turrets can still do so and have the same damage output as a maller. People who want to use missiles can do so and get a 25% rof bonus (which is better than a 25% damage bonus). Also, the 10% launcher velocity instead of flight time will allow it to hit targets quicker and hit quicker targets (you might need to read that a couple of times). I think a missile Sacriledge needs 2 missile damage bonuses. 5% EM dmg and 5% ROF per level for the HAC skill. 5 launchers and a ROF bonus would leave it doing far less dmg than it does even now. Not having a velocity and range bonus would really separate it from the Cerb in terms of usable range. Especially when cruiser torps are introduced.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:39:00 - [183] Originally by: Kcel Chim you know thats a very selective view. Youre forgetting the cyclone, rapier and typhoon I didn't forget the phoon i said it was an exception. The Cyclone gets no bonus's to it's launcher slots so they are better used for NOS anyway. It gets a dual bonus to it's turrets... The Rapier has an awesome 1 launcher with no bonus's so uhh you're gonna spec heavy missiles to use that? I think you meant the Huginn anyway. Yeah it has a split weapon system like the Sac. If anything you have to train missiles about as much as Amarr does... - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 12:42:00 - [184] Originally by: Meridius The Cyclone gets no bonus's to it's launcher slots so they are better used for NOS anyway. It gets a dual bonus to it's turrets... last time I checked, 7.5% shield boosting per level didn't have much of an effect on turrets :P Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Udyr Vulpayne	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:14:00 - [185] i'm highly in favour of the khanid ships to be turned into armortanking missile boats. however stay away with the em-missile bonus. the reason i want to use missiles instead of lasers sometimes is the possibility to do other types of damage than em/therm. an em-missile bonus on an amarrian ship is about as usefull as rof bonus on a freighter. some time ago i won a light precission em-missile bpo. i sold it because even if we had some nice missileboats i wouldnt want to use em in it. there are already loads of bonuses around which are rather useless for the ship they are used on (maller has a cap bonus for cruiser sized lasers, damage bonuses on cov ops frigs or all other em missile bonuses on amarrian ships). theres really no need to add more of those.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:15:00 - [186] Edited by: Sarmaul on 31/05/2006 13:18:18 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne maller has a cap bonus for cruiser sized lasers the maller is a cruiser and uses lasers Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:17:00 - [187] Originally by: Tassi Originally by: Tuxford reasonbable stuff Delete vengeance, give retribution another mid and everybody is happy. no no no. give retribution a 5th turret point, more grid and cpu, and we would get a more unique ship ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:22:00 - [188] The Hawk kind of got gimped here.. I was kind of hoping for ROF + Kinetic Missile DMG. Why? Because Standard Launchers currently suck without a rate of fire bonus, they have the same ROF as a Heavy Launcher still.. Rockets are kind of gimped too.. and T2 missiles don't even work well on frigates to begin with.. missiles + frigates kind of blows now. Anyways Hawk will do less DPS than a Kestrel.. ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:27:00 - [189] Originally by: Jim Raynor The Hawk kind of got gimped here.. I was kind of hoping for ROF + Kinetic Missile DMG. Why? Because Standard Launchers currently suck without a rate of fire bonus, they have the same ROF as a Heavy Launcher still.. Rockets are kind of gimped too.. and T2 missiles don't even work well on frigates to begin with.. missiles + frigates kind of blows now. Anyways Hawk will do less DPS than a Kestrel.. I support this splendid post of 'stuff'. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:31:00 - [190] Originally by: KilROCK Originally by: Jim Raynor The Hawk kind of got gimped here.. I was kind of hoping for ROF + Kinetic Missile DMG. Why? Because Standard Launchers currently suck without a rate of fire bonus, they have the same ROF as a Heavy Launcher still.. Rockets are kind of gimped too.. and T2 missiles don't even work well on frigates to begin with.. missiles + frigates kind of blows now. Anyways Hawk will do less DPS than a Kestrel.. I support this splendid post of 'stuff'. ...yes I support it too.. that's why we need the 4th bonus ...that or change the dmg bonus to a RoF one... ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Tassi	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:34:00 - [191] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Tassi Originally by: Tuxford reasonbable stuff Delete vengeance, give retribution another mid and everybody is happy. no no no. give retribution a 5th turret point, more grid and cpu, and we would get a more unique ship This wouldn't help the amarr frig situation at all. Amarr have no reasonable t2 frig that is able to do some solowork, like the other races have.
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:38:00 - [192] Even though these ship changes have been delayed for the moment, i'm still puzzled as to why the assault frigs are having a bonus getting replaced instead of adding the 4th bonus. Losing the Wolf's optimal bonus doesn't look like that bad a change at first but the long range ability of the wolf with artillery gets hurt by this. The vengeance is even losing a potential 33% range for both beam and pulse lasers(not just one turret type). Jaguar's tracking bonus I could live without but it's still a handy bonus to have. So why not add these bonus changes as the 4th bonus and keep a current bonus? Of course this would mean also adding a 4th bonus to the unmentioned assault frigs but I don't see where that could be a problem. - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!
Stab Wound	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:38:00 - [193] z0mg, time to train minnie frigs to 5. :D Jaguar should be fking sweet now, its like a little Vagabond... with extra midslot to ECM-***** with. ;D That shivers me timbers. This patchnotes = goodness. \o/ Always nice to see some c'raptastic ships be turned into something very useful. The age of the Typhoon is upon us...
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:52:00 - [194] Originally by: Tuxford See the thing is with Amarr is that they don't really have a "flavor" like the other races. The Caldari have missiles and rails (people have different opinions about which is the caldari weapon system). Gallante have hybrids and drones and minmatar have well speed. Amarr on the other hand tank and gank that makes it pretty hard to make to combat ships that are similar but yet different, this holds especially true for Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships. One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. I totally see this argument - I've argued it myself before. However... I'm going off it, for two reasons. 1) Amarr needs more diversity. It needs it OOC because as you say there's no breadth to their strategy atm, and it needs it OOC because it's not just fighting the Matari any more and even they have insane EM and therm resists on T2 ships which make "lasers lasers lasers" increasingly obsolete. 2) Khanid ships suck anyway. Currently the Vengeance sucks, the Anathema sucks, the Heretic's ok, the Sac's just a weak Zealot, and the Damnation is kinda cool. The only Khanid ship that doesn't suck is the Curse, because it sucks - it has Nos. The easy fallback here is just missiles. It's a bit of a cop-out, but it's better than the current situation. We already have a missile frig. If you gave the Omen the ability to mount more launchers (say a 4/4 loadout with its 5 highs), then you could justify making the Khanid ships far more missile-focussed. This would make them missile-spewing armour tankers, which gives them a unique and distinctly Khanid role (shield-tanking laser users would require insane cap, which would probably be unbalancing). This would work - current Amarr pilots lose nothing because at worst they'll just continue to ignore Khanid ships, and it gives them and new pilots the opportunity to use a new fighting style. This I think would be a pretty acceptable way out of this problem. The more interesting one would be to give Khanid a new specialty. For example, let the Curse point the way and start giving them Nos/Neut bonuses. This may have to go hand-in-hand with a rework of Nos/Neut in general, but that's probably needed anyway. A less problematic solution actually would be just Neuts, with Nos bonuses reserved for the Curse - Amarr ships have the cap to deal with Neuts more than most races do, so it would make sense. If you did give them Nos bonuses too, it'd also be the most appropriate race for them IMO as Amarr generally have the biggest caps and thus, if you're swapping out weapons for Nos, the least benefit from the obtained cap, making their primary useful effect the consequences for their opponents. The Amarr have always been particularly engineering-heavy so I think this kind of approach would fit nicely, and complement their combat style. The only other option really is Smart Bombs, and they'd need a radical overhaul before they could be a primary system for anyone.
Fuyursuki	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:54:00 - [195] Minmatar finally getting some love?! what strange new world is this A very good one in my eyes 'Suki
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.05.31 13:56:00 - [196] Originally by: Tassi Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Tassi Originally by: Tuxford reasonbable stuff Delete vengeance, give retribution another mid and everybody is happy. no no no. give retribution a 5th turret point, more grid and cpu, and we would get a more unique ship This wouldn't help the amarr frig situation at all. Amarr have no reasonable t2 frig that is able to do some solowork, like the other races have. no? well solo'ing in AF's is a bit hard anyways. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Nafri	Posted - 2006.05.31 14:05:00 - [197] Originally by: Fuyursuki Minmatar finally getting some love?! what strange new world is this A very good one in my eyes 'Suki Now just getting rid of Target Painters and I will fly them again From Dusk till Dawn
Wizie	Posted - 2006.05.31 14:18:00 - [198] Would appreciate some reduction on fitting reqs of 720 howitzers and clip size of 1400 arti. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 14:19:00 - [199] Originally by: Wizie Would appreciate some reduction on fitting reqs of 720 howitzers and clip size of 1400 arti. psst, we want to increase the clip size of 1400mm, not decrease it ;) Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2006.05.31 14:19:00 - [200] I'm totally in favour of turning Khanid ships into missile boats, because a)That'll make some other race than Caldari have missile ships, which would make missiles more liekly to be balanced. b)Khanid ships suck. Nobody uses em anyways. If they were missile boats some people might not train for missiles but those that would would find Khanid ships to be pretty good. This way atlest somebody would use em While you're at it, you might turn Roden ships into something else then missile/guns hybrids. I wnat more ships like Enyo, not stuff like Ares!! Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Udyr Vulpayne	Posted - 2006.05.31 14:43:00 - [201] Originally by: Sarmaul the maller is a cruiser and uses lasers yes...just not cruiser sized ones. being a fan of the maller i always thought it was a great ship. however after reading some recent whine posts about the inability to actually use cruiser sized lasers on this ship in a way which would be preferable over using frig sized guns i decided to take another look at it and come up with a decent fitting....that pretty much failed. i still think it's a nice ship but like most people i do use frig sized guns on my mallers. maybe even some cruiser sized ac's but trying to fit lasers on it isn't good for anything more than maybe lvl2 missions. if you want to take advantage of the mallers many lowslots and its resistance bonus you're far better off with small guns..regardless of type. hence the cap bonus on crusier sized lasers is wasted.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.05.31 14:43:00 - [202] Originally by: tuxford The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants It makes us ALL very happy in the pants. Amarr desperately need some variety, and some variety in damage types. This would do both. It would also be unique, which is something that would be good for the game overall as a whole as variety = interest = subscription retention. And TBH anyone who didn't want to use missiles would still have lots of Amarr ships to choose from. The VAST majority of the Khanid ships are utter and complete crap. So let's take a look. Malediction: An armor tanking crow!!?? Yes please! Vengeance: Armor tanking Hawk with decent mids? Oh yes yes yes! Curse: No thank you, perfect as is. Sacri: More like a Cerb, less like a crappy Zealot? Definitely needed! Really I wouldn't mind you turning the Apoc into an armor tanking missile spewer. It is pretty crappy in pvp and it's use as a mining platform is all it does well for PvE (Raven is FAR superior for ratting/lvl 4). That may be a harder sell though. Tweak the Khanid ships. Honestly they can't get much worse. Nyxus Edit: Well, they would be worse if they did split weapons. But missile spewing armor boats sound like sooooo much fun (in my pants!) Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Tachy	Posted - 2006.05.31 15:03:00 - [203] I am sorry to read that the ship changes are taken out temporarily again. Somehow someone seems to be trying to balance ships with a cookiecutter strategy. That might be a false impression, but still ... --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Krayl	Posted - 2006.05.31 15:44:00 - [204] If Ammar got armour tanking missile ships, I, for one, would train them like yesterday... (Next on the list: Shield tanked laser ships, I guess...) Ammar certainly need a bit more variety, Minmatar seem to have enough different designs to not really need missiles. I suppose the other option is to perhaps give the Sac and Vengance some drone bonuses maybe? Not as good as gallente, obviously, and the curse already does drones to some extent, but perhaps there is room for some more Ammar drone ships?
Mathra	Posted - 2006.05.31 15:51:00 - [205] Wow, I never thought I'd live to see Minmatar getting the biggest boost. w00t!
Electric Cucumber	Posted - 2006.05.31 16:03:00 - [206] @ the Vengeance.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.31 16:16:00 - [207] T1 ships and weapons need balance before T2 ships i dare u to fly a maller or omen on traq with ur player char tux -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
HankMurphy	Posted - 2006.05.31 16:33:00 - [208] Originally by: Stab Wound z0mg, time to train minnie frigs to 5. :D Jaguar should be fking sweet now, its like a little Vagabond... with extra midslot to ECM-***** with. ;D That shivers me timbers. This patchnotes = goodness. \o/ Always nice to see some c'raptastic ships be turned into something very useful. The age of the Typhoon is upon us... Minmatar 4tw? Its about frickin time Mr. Bigglesworth
Astrum Ludus	Posted - 2006.05.31 16:35:00 - [209] The Amarr problem is not that it has no variety, it's that they suck at what they do. I don't want to use f'ing missiles just to have ships that perform, hence, I am not in a Raven.
Wizie	Posted - 2006.05.31 16:35:00 - [210] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Wizie Would appreciate some reduction on fitting reqs of 720 howitzers and clip size of 1400 arti. psst, we want to increase the clip size of 1400mm, not decrease it ;) o.O LIES!!! Wonder if firing direct from cargo would work better? :p Load time = gun rof = OWNAGE! only for 1400s ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Redblade	Posted - 2006.05.31 16:46:00 - [211] Edited by: Redblade on 31/05/2006 16:47:24 I compared dmg on the 1400, 425 and the mega beam t2's all with short range t2 ammo, basing it around the 425's time to empty the guns and do one reload wich is 234 sec and came up with this. 234 sec with 1400 = 104118 dmg (2x full loads with reload) 234 sec with 425 = 128576 dmg (1x full load with reload) 234 sec with MB = 131742 dmg (no reload needed) Note: 6x 1400 on a tempest, 7x 425 on a mega, 8x mega beams on an apoc, all with 2x t2 dmg mods, lvl 5 BS and lvl 4 spec. This clearly indicates the lower dot of the 1400's due to reloading, now if we change the clip size to 15 on the 1400 instead of the current amount that is 10 u get the following. 234 sec with 1400 = 124109 dmg This is clearly more in line with the others. As it stands now the mega out-ranges and out-damages the tempest, the apoc out-damages the tempest with mega beams and the apoc with tachyons has allmost the same alpha strike. So Tux if u wouldn't mind atleast taking a look at this, it's not asking for much but it would help alot in laggy fleet battles where reloading/changing ammo take way more then 10sec.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:03:00 - [212] Originally by: Sarmaul ...No, I bought 5 hawks within hours of it being announced it was going to turn into a missile ship and laughed as the price skyrocketed by 14m about an hour after I did so :). I have full plans on doing a nice resell when the changes go through :P Since these changes have not been announced what you have done is called insider trading. I'll be contacting Concord about this Im lovin these changes. AF gettin some lovin. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:07:00 - [213] Looks like we'll have to wait another week though, they aint making it this patch because of (yet more) db issues. O well, hopefully we'll get some 'phoon fitting/hp restructuring on top of everything else. Me, im hoping for a ninja'ed BC agility boost =p ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Khonsu	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:10:00 - [214] Originally by: Tuxford So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. And those people will happily fly the Zealot and Retribution. Heck, they already do. I don't see what the problem is here, really? More missile slots for Veng and Sac (especially Sac)!
Baalic	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:13:00 - [215] Originally by: Tuxford ... and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. ^^Worst possible reason for a design decision. Eve suffers badly from forcing people to run nearly identical setups in all their ships. Some of the most interesting and effective setups I've seen are ones that break the mold. An evil PvP Punisher with ACs or a passive shield tanked Cyclone with lasers for uber PvE funtime. You could unnerf minnies for PvE in one fell swoop by adding a missile hardpoint to all their ships without adding high slots. TBFH all combat ships should have more hardpoints than highslots. Hmmm, do I put in 5 missiles and 3 guns or 5 guns and 3 missiles or 4 and 4? A phoon has a choice of 4 and 4, or 4 and 4 and possibly you could put in 4 and 4. On a scale of 1 to boring that's really boring. If you are confused as to what bonus to add to a certain ship and have it be unique how about a general bonus? Amarr tend to need lots of cap. How about 5% to capactor per level? That would be interesting. Or 5% more ROF to ANY turrets, not just the type you expect to see on that ship. Options and creativity are fun.
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:17:00 - [216] Tux is there a reason you took out the Kinetic damage bonus out of the Hawk? Caldari - BS idea
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:17:00 - [217] Quote: There is a static update being prepared but might not be ready for when the patch will be deployed. So for the time being we have removed all static changes from the patchnotes. Once the static is ready, it will be deployed to TQ and all the changes added to the patchnotes. I knew the Minmatar suffering is hardcoded and the code itself is resisting any attempts to change it Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
paeronsoda	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:20:00 - [218] Originally by: Tassi Delete vengeance, give retribution another mid and everybody is happy. Good idea actually And on a more serious note why is it so damn wrong with the retribtuion to have 2 med slots..... Has a dev ever stated why?
Crellion	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:37:00 - [219] Ok I havent read 8 pages and I appologise, but... After these changes the AFs seem to mirror closely the HACs in race balance. As I see it now the minnies will win bst HAC best AF best cruiser and be equal to the best out there in the BS and ceptor department. Therefore: minnies enjoy. But if I here any more whinage from you, even a peep, I ll slap you on the face, all.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:58:00 - [220] Originally by: Crellion Ok I havent read 8 pages and I appologise, but... After these changes the AFs seem to mirror closely the HACs in race balance. As I see it now the minnies will win bst HAC best AF best cruiser and be equal to the best out there in the BS and ceptor department. Therefore: minnies enjoy. But if I here any more whinage from you, even a peep, I ll slap you on the face, all. Actually, the assault frigates now (besides the amarr ones) are pretty much balanced with each other. Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
HankMurphy	Posted - 2006.05.31 18:18:00 - [221] Originally by: Crellion Ok I havent read 8 pages and I appologise, but... After these changes the AFs seem to mirror closely the HACs in race balance. As I see it now the minnies will win bst HAC best AF best cruiser and be equal to the best out there in the BS and ceptor department. Therefore: minnies enjoy. But if I here any more whinage from you, even a peep, I ll slap you on the face, all. check out RedBlade's post above, think we (minnie pilots)have a valid argument w/ the howie clipsize. Don't worry Crellion. Before you know it minmatar will be on top in all ship categories.... as we rightly should be
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.05.31 19:02:00 - [222] Could we keep our hands off the changes for AF until we at least get on the test server and find out what they're like? Considering how the price of vengeances has suddenly jumped due to greatly increased demand I'm guessing that people aren't upset about the change that's occurred. Raptor and Ares Fix
Tar Ecthelion	Posted - 2006.05.31 19:06:00 - [223] Edited by: Tar Ecthelion on 31/05/2006 19:05:57 heh, glad I bought myself a vengeance and a jag few weeks back. As for Missile Khanid ships, I loved my Sac setup with 3 hvy beam II and 3 Hvy Missile II. Not as much damage output as a zealot, but with half your weapons using any damage type, and a mean tank on it. it wasn't bad. But a Sac with 6 Hvy Missiles II .. OMFG !!! DROOL !!! ..... "When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite" Winston Churchill
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.05.31 19:09:00 - [224] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/05/2006 19:09:53 Originally by: Kai Lae Could we keep our hands off the changes for AF until we at least get on the test server and find out what they're like? Considering how the price of vengeances has suddenly jumped due to greatly increased demand I'm guessing that people aren't upset about the change that's occurred. I think the discussion branched back there into suggestions on how to make the Sac a good ship, and into general "how to make the Amarr ships more varied". Seems the general consensus (happily shared by Tux) is that armor tanking missile spammers would be cool. But I think that was sort of a separate thing from this current batch of changes, and more aimed at future patches and general design direction.
Crellion	Posted - 2006.05.31 19:12:00 - [225] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Crellion Ok I havent read 8 pages and I appologise, but... After these changes the AFs seem to mirror closely the HACs in race balance. As I see it now the minnies will win bst HAC best AF best cruiser and be equal to the best out there in the BS and ceptor department. Therefore: minnies enjoy. But if I here any more whinage from you, even a peep, I ll slap you on the face, all. check out RedBlade's post above, think we (minnie pilots)have a valid argument w/ the howie clipsize. Don't worry Crellion. Before you know it minmatar will be on top in all ship categories.... as we rightly should be Worry? Why worry? I can train can't I?
Kai Lae	Posted - 2006.05.31 20:36:00 - [226] Originally by: Alex Harumichi I think the discussion branched back there into suggestions on how to make the Sac a good ship, and into general "how to make the Amarr ships more varied". Seems the general consensus (happily shared by Tux) is that armor tanking missile spammers would be cool. But I think that was sort of a separate thing from this current batch of changes, and more aimed at future patches and general design direction. Well, as I said when sac was changed, set it to 4/4 hardpoint layout, laser damage for optimal range, and keep the missile ROF bonus. If you need long range heavy launcher II w/ about 75k range should do nicely. Raptor and Ares Fix
Phish1	Posted - 2006.06.01 00:09:00 - [227] top teir arty clip size increase 4TW!
Redblade	Posted - 2006.06.01 08:21:00 - [228] Push to the top so Tux can get a chance to tell me why im wrong or perhaps right before this topic gets forgotten.
Mortania	Posted - 2006.06.01 17:57:00 - [229] Edited by: Mortania on 01/06/2006 17:58:57 If the Wolf is getting a falloff increase, can we get a targeting range increase as well? Minnies have some of the longest range weapons and yet both of the AFs have the shortest targetting range of all of the AF. As it stands now (before the patch) Tremor ammo is already limited by the Wolf's 50km targeting range (with LRT5). Are both of our AFs meant to be AC boats? Can we get one that gets the 45km base that we seen on nearly all of one type of the other races AFs? It's probably asking for too much, but it can't hurt to ask.
Elrich Zann	Posted - 2006.06.02 07:03:00 - [230] Quote: 200mm, 425mm and 800mm AutoCannons have a 50% higher ammunition capacity Sarmaul, all minny's owe you
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.02 07:06:00 - [231] Originally by: Elrich Zann Sarmaul, all minny's owe you ZOMG! Testy's Eve Blog - Updated 01/06/06 Today's forum noob level : Neutral.
Dreamstalker	Posted - 2006.06.02 07:07:00 - [232] Originally by: Elrich Zann Quote: 200mm, 425mm and 800mm AutoCannons have a 50% higher ammunition capacity Sarmaul, all minny's owe you /bows __________________________________ My name is legion for we are many.
Xthril Ranger	Posted - 2006.06.02 07:57:00 - [233] Originally by: Tuxford Recon operation was supposed to give bonus to scan resolution which is the same as the leadership module so either the module or the skill would override the other one so that bonus didn't make much sense. So we changed it to EWAR module range. I don't get it. Isnt Recon operation the leadership module? Which skill are we talking about? you'll never jump alone
Sentille	Posted - 2006.06.02 16:13:00 - [234] 3 things Lots of hairy man love to Sarmual, Wierda, Naughty and Testy for all their efforts for us Minnie pilots. Any chance of some new DPS numbers on 150/200 200/425 650/800 Autocannons? Where can I DL Naughty spreadsheets? Happy days!
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.06.02 16:27:00 - [235] Originally by: Sentille Where can I DL Naughty spreadsheets? You'll find it in the thread linked in my signature. NB.
Chode Rizoum	Posted - 2006.06.02 16:41:00 - [236] 425s.. still not worith fitting... 800s still not worth fitting.. they need their dmg mod buffed befor that.
Sentille	Posted - 2006.06.02 19:37:00 - [237] Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Sentille Where can I DL Naughty spreadsheets? You'll find it in the thread linked in my signature. NB. Many thanks NB
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.06.02 20:00:00 - [238] Originally by: Chode Rizoum 425s.. still not worith fitting... 800s still not worth fitting.. they need their dmg mod buffed befor that. as nafri (it was nafri right?) said before, make the high-tier AC's short range alpha strike guns \o\ ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Fuyursuki	Posted - 2006.06.02 20:10:00 - [239] Edited by: Fuyursuki on 02/06/2006 20:11:45 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Chode Rizoum 425s.. still not worith fitting... 800s still not worth fitting.. they need their dmg mod buffed befor that. as nafri (it was nafri right?) said before, make the high-tier AC's short range alpha strike guns \o\ Thought that was testy myself, a lonnnnnng time ago in the days mm ships used cardboard bullets and the amarrians fitted thier apoc's with laser pens... 'Suki edit: forgot the damn quote
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2006.06.02 20:11:00 - [240] Boost again if you like. I already use 800s and 425s. They are good. And with the added ammo they should rock well. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.06.02 20:27:00 - [241] Seems that the 800s will be sweet NPCing guns and nothing more. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Brother Tycho	Posted - 2006.06.02 22:36:00 - [242] Khanid ships are a hybrid of caldari and amarr tech so i see no reason for the mal, vengance and sac not being armour tanked missile ships maybe even a new t1 cruiser with missile pionts and armour tanking options wouldent be out of the question as it stands amarr ships are like fish out of the water fighting anything but bloods and sanshas but i think that has more to do with lasers in there currant state. i live in angel space and basicly have to rat in a apoc with AC just to get kills this side of downtime while maintaining a viable 3 resist armour tank. -------------[B«+tHd« T¦¦H+]------------- åå Spreading the good word since beta åå
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.07 10:44:00 - [243] Originally by: Tuxford One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. Oh yes! Please! Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Aion Amarra	Posted - 2006.06.07 13:55:00 - [244] Originally by: Tuxford See the thing is with Amarr is that they don't really have a "flavor" like the other races. The Caldari have missiles and rails (people have different opinions about which is the caldari weapon system). Gallante have hybrids and drones and minmatar have well speed. Amarr on the other hand tank and gank that makes it pretty hard to make to combat ships that are similar but yet different, this holds especially true for Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships. One way to change this is simply by taking the Khanid design to hard and really go for it. For example we could make some changes to Vengeance, give it 3 missile hardpoints, change the laser cap need bonus to armor resistance and then give it 5% em missile damage an 10% missile velocity. Not quite as good as the hawk but probably has more tanking potential and by keeping more of its med slots free. Similar things could be done to the Sacrilege. So some of you might have the question "why the hell don't you just do it?" Well the problem is that these are still Amarr ships even thought they are made by Khanid. Is it fair to ask an amarr ships that he has to train for a different weapon system just to get use of both their AS/HAS. Well Caldari need to do and so do Gallente. Minmatar partly have to do, they can ignore missiles but there are so many ships that have missile hardpoints that probably not many do. So you see this is not really as simple as just making Vengeance a missile boat and everybody is happy because not everybody would be. Dude. I'd give the Vengeance and Sacri a big hug and actually start training missile skills if you did that. Missile launchers are somewhat of a secondary weapon for all races. All races have ships with missileslots, all races have a few ships with more highs than turret slots, and thus have a slot or two free to fit launchers. Everyone sooner or later trains at least a few missileskills. I don't see any reason for there not being specialized missile ships for non-caldari ships. Especially as I think the game really needs missile ships that armortank. I mean, all real missileships are shieldtanks. Laaame~ Minmatar already have to train missiles and projectile skills. Caldari train hybrid and missile skills. Gallente train hybrid and drone skills. Amarr train lasers. Yep. Lasers. Why do all races really have to train two weapon categories to utilize all of their weapons, while drones and missiles are little more than a small gimmick for the Amarr and otherwise not that relevant? 'sides, drones, again, have to be trained to at least some extent by everyone. There is one amarr droneboat, the Arbitrator. There's also the Inquisitor. But all races have a missilefrig, so that doesn't really count. I mean, the Caldari are already allied with the Amarr. Let some of that technology exchange show, and give us more missileboats. \o/ (and give Caldari lasers? Naaaah.) Uhm. Yay for versatility, or something? Having written this response before actually finishing to read the thread, and having read it now, I see that general consensus appears to be the same as mine. Yay for armor tanked missile spammers in black! On that note, some more variation in ships would be nice in general. Laser using shieldtanks (passive or active)? Caldari drone cruiser/bs/frig/whatever (you know, they DID develop fighters)? Pulse laser ships heavily geared towards MWD use? Zomgyes. ________ Capship Overhaul
AngryCanuk	Posted - 2006.06.07 14:03:00 - [245] Could anyone give me a link as to why the 800mm ACs are not worth fitting, I know before this patch they have half as much ammo as the dual ACs but thats as much as I know. Are there other disadvantages to the 800ACs for BS's and if so what?
Wulfgard	Posted - 2006.06.07 14:12:00 - [246] Originally by: AngryCanuk Could anyone give me a link as to why the 800mm ACs are not worth fitting, I know before this patch they have half as much ammo as the dual ACs but thats as much as I know. Are there other disadvantages to the 800ACs for BS's and if so what? If you fit 800s for pvp, you're more or less forced to shield tank, limiting your mid slots for scram-web purpose. But a Pest w/ 800s and 4 gyros is a thing to be feared
AngryCanuk	Posted - 2006.06.07 14:58:00 - [247] why are you forced to shield tank? because of the need for gyros for the tracking? Im still not really getting it :(
xenorx	Posted - 2006.06.08 17:28:00 - [248] Well first off congrats to the minmitar. In all seriousness Im happy to see you all get some love. It also seem that most of you lot are happy with the changes that Tux is putting in. I am seriously disappointed with the amarr Assault ships though. While I am certainly happy they decided to try and do something with the vengance. Tux has ignored his own instincts and the vast majority of our oppinions on what to do with it. The majority here ask for a missile/armor tank and we got nothing like that. Oh well, in the case of the vengance I guess anything is better than it was. What about the Retribution Tux? It gets nothing changed at all? PPl have been begging for a second mid slot for this AS since it came out. Why is it so hard to drop that useless utility high slot for a second mid slot? There would be a lot of hot Amarrian women who would have your babies for that change. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.08 17:33:00 - [249] Originally by: AngryCanuk why are you forced to shield tank? because of the need for gyros for the tracking? Im still not really getting it :( no, it's because 800mms use so much grid (compared to dual 650mms) that you're generally forced to fit an RCU and an armour tank, leaving you room for 0-1 damage mods.
Xthril Ranger	Posted - 2006.06.08 19:19:00 - [250] Sorry for repeating a question. Can anyone answer this for me please? Originally by: Tuxford Recon operation was supposed to give bonus to scan resolution which is the same as the leadership module so either the module or the skill would override the other one so that bonus didn't make much sense. So we changed it to EWAR module range. I don't get it. Isnt Recon operation the leadership module? Which skill are we talking about? you'll never jump alone
Baalic	Posted - 2006.06.09 02:59:00 - [251] Originally by: AngryCanuk Could anyone give me a link as to why the 800mm ACs are not worth fitting, I know before this patch they have half as much ammo as the dual ACs but thats as much as I know. Are there other disadvantages to the 800ACs for BS's and if so what? Lets pull up the online database and compare the Dual 425mm Autocannon I with the 800mm Repeating Artillery I DPS (damage mulipliter/Rate of fire) 0.31 0.34 Tracking 0.054 0.043 Optimal Range 3200 4000 Ok so we get 10% more damage and 20% more optimal range for a 20% loss in tracking. Seems like a fair tradeoff. We can ignore the range bonus because ACs are generally used at falloff, so it's really more like a 5% bonus. Now the fittings CPU 33 39 Grid 1250 2000 20% more CPU and 60% more powergrid. Wow, 60% more grid for 10% more damage! Seems bad, lets check just how bad. You have a Tempest with 15500 grid. You jam in 6 dual 425s and 2 torpedo launchers or heavy Nos, 11500 grid used, 4000 left over for other stuff. No problem. Put in 800s. -1000 grid left over for your 5 mid slots and 6 low slots. Uhhh... good thing you have fitting skills... right? Even with that you still have to start thinking about what important things you are going to drop for that 10% damage bonus. 10% really isnt that much and is totally nullified if you have to drop something important like a torpedo launcher or a gyro in order to get it. So in the end the penaltys are: 20% worse tracking 20% worse CPU use 60% worse grid use The benefits: 10% more damage lower ammo use. What made matters worse was before this patch the constant reloading nullified the 10% damage bonus.

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