I am not advocating the OP position, however, the statement that the defender is in general advantaged is not correct either. When thinking back through the history of system assaults which I have been involved with I can not think of a single one where the defender had the advantage. The nature of New Eden is that the attacker withholds pressing forward with the operation until he believes that he has not just a superior position but a vastly superior one.

I do think that the difficulty of getting forces back in contributes to the unwillingness to fly ships that are already likely lost. As such when given the choice of logging valuables off or of fighting most pick logging their stuff out. Allowing the defenders or attackers re - entry via a clone jump might not be the best answer but that inability is central to why invasions are the way they are. Perhaps running the other side out of ships would be more interesting than the current lack of engagements. Instead of dismissing it based on the idea that it eliminates the current tactic of victory via the other side not having any pilots, perhaps we should look at the bigger picture of what would be more interesting gameplay.

In wspace warfare, if eviction is the desire podding them residents out is the only way to ensure that you slowly gain system control (barring diplomatic talks of surrender and graceful exit, etc).

Atleast as much as anything else I've generally seen people lose systems due to being unprepared, whether its naivety, hubris, a lack of foresight or just being sloppy - maybe with the mentality of "it happens to other people not me" then when someone does siege their system they are on the back foot even when they should have had the advantage.

Do agree though that most people don't attack unless they have a significant advantage when sieging a system - not always the case though.

The ability for recloning back inside the hole would probably just lead to defenders throwing welpcanes or alphanados at the other party until they run out of caps or ships. Ofc that could be fun too

@ People suggesting stations in WH's - Station games are terrible. The only way I can see stations working in WH's is -

1. They had to be anchored at a POS. This removes station games and replaces it with "forcefield games" which I've never heard of.
2. They could only be built in an unshielded structure anchored at a moon and appear on Overview.
3. Their fittings were such that you anchor them at a Large POS and you only have room for rudimentary defenses on that tower.
4. They had limited storage space (like an XLSMA)
5. You could not dock capitals into them
6. Only a limited number of players can dock at them
7. Docking makes you appear in Local until you undock
8. I'm undecided regarding clones - if multiple people died and respawned to the station it could be exploitable to put more people in station than it could hold
9. Undecided about science and indy slots.
10. Can be stolen if they take the POS down, with everything inside.

I disagree. More ships exploding is better than less ships exploding. It's the risk you take if you want to reap the ABCM reward of mining in a WH. You can already mitigate the risk by a) not being afk b) watching dscan c) mining in cheap throwaway ships.

I would argue against clone jumping into/out of wspace. Even in the suggestion I made related to this a long while back I only advocated swapping clones in a POS Clone Vat or Rorq. Not jumping into or out of the system. In wspace warfare, if eviction is the desire podding the residents out is the only way to ensure that you slowly gain system control (barring diplomatic talks of surrender and graceful exit, etc).

apart from this being terrible

22b isnt much at all for a fire sized allaince espeically when the fleet to run the sites cost more than that.

Nerf escalations

POD express
The pod express to HS makes many people risk averse. You cannot afford not to have key players in your WH if **** hits the fan! Introducing a structure (something as bulky as a XL SMA) or ship (roqual) that allows you to activate a new clone if it died in the same system (J-number) would mitigate this. In case of an eviction this would give the defender an advantage.

Capital escalations is twofold bad game design

force field games

Besides all this carebear-talk: The problem with WH space is not the income it is the lack of opportunities to lose ISK. Balancing the income side between different classes/activities can only achieve anything if interesting gameplay emerges from this. Why is C5+ space so dull that they fight in null? Why do people only log in for pings?

I disagree. If clone jumping were possible system control would be established and held the same way it is everywhere else in New Eden, by removing offensive ships and structures. Whether this is a good change or not is not clear. But what is clear is that the existing siege mechanic where one side hopes for rescue from outside while preserving their ability to log out one ship is terribly dull and not very much fun for either side. It is strange that we cling so fiercely to maintain a pretty terrible status quo where both the attacker and defender have a dreadful weekend.

Updated nebulae please. How hard can this be?

Regarding clone swap - I'd be pretty keen

The C5 entities that I've had direct interaction with have generally rolled their static, look for targets, and roll their static again, on repeat. It's super easy, and requires a single round-trip from only three ships. It's much easier than scanning multiple systems to form chains for exploring.

I vaguely remember a dev talking about this. Would require a new POS module, so no way before the structure rework next year(tm).

It'd honestly be fine if they let you do it in a Rorq. Would make the thing actually useful...

2. Ability to swap clones within w-space.
Either from a POS Clone Vat bay or a Rorq clone vat bay. These are possibly the most underused POS mods and capital mods in the game.
Note: this is not to clone jump out of w-space or back into w-space. Only to swap clones within the clone vat. All other jump clone timers/rules apply.
This has been requested numerous times over the years because wh combat gang compositions change rapidly depending on who you might be fighting or expecting to fight, and/or what effects the wh you're planning a fight in has. Jumping out to some empire location, to the JC, possibly on the other side of the universe from the location you found then slow boating back means that JCs aren't used to their full potential by worm(hole) players. This also offers added targets of interest in wormhole space as roaming groups could potentially destroy several high value clones by destroying an online clone vat bay.

This was the verbiage of my suggestion a while back

implying I read anything in a thread before commenting

You might have misunderstood me or have a very different perspective on what is good for w-space than I do. Let me get this straight: I am not for starving the big groups to death but I think we need a new paradigm that focuses on interesting gameplay more than conserving an arbitrary status quo. Both my suggestions trend towards this.

This makes no sense to me.
We are not talking about income for an ally but income for one WH for doing home sites exclusively. And if you say it is not much what are you comparing it to? PL rent income or a C3 WH group doing exactly the same (running their home sites)? You did some testing on income, you can do the math.

And since when does the income of an activity in eve scale linear with the value of assets needed to do this? And please donGÇÖt pull the siege/triage = risk card. We all know that 95% of groups that spot such a fleet cannot attack it whereas everyone jumps on a Tengu that is tackled by sleepers.

If you donGÇÖt see a problem with a two orders in magnitude higher income for doing exactly the same thing (ratting in home) I donGÇÖt know what to say or I have to assume you are cool with there being no meaningful/interesting interactions between those two groups.

Besides all this carebear-talk: The problem with WH space is not the income it is the lack of opportunities to lose ISK. Balancing the income side between different classes/activities can only achieve anything if interesting gameplay emerges from this. Why is C5+ space so dull that they fight in null? Why do people only log in for pings?

And since you donGÇÖt want to touch it (I would not want to mess with my peer group either) I have to point my finger towards capital escalations and the bad they do. Out of Proportion compared to anything else in eve.


Now read my initial post again and call me terrible if you still wish so or come up with a better solution (and I am sure there are some).

Balancing the income side between different classes/activities can only achieve anything if interesting gameplay emerges from this

will send you some details so you can talk to me in person as you obviously have a issue with this.

hell out of proportion . have you even looked at god damn hisec incursions.

Sadly everything bar escalations is out of proportion compared to any other PvE activity.
Incursions are just the worst, but lvl5s, T4/5-FW missions, piratemissions, nullsec DEDs all make more, are less risky and more reliable than wormholesites. Hell, with ESS and fighterchanges you can now easily make 150m/h even in bad dronespace.
The only reason for running non-escalationsites is because you love wormholespace.

This +1.

Even C1/C2 is more dangerous than any of these activities because of no local while the site payout is absolute garbage. These holes are now used basically for PI and industry (passive income w/ zombie towers) for export to k-space and that is sad.

]This could be fixed by increasing demand for sleeper salvage, ie. adding new things to build from it. And not necessarily only T3 frigs or BSs - could be T3 modules, rigs, ammo or even some special structures/deployables. Making salvage worth more would help low-class and non-escalating wormholers disproportionately more than C5/6 capital farmers (as those mostly rely on blue loot).

This.