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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Levin Cavil
Lucid Ambition
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Posted - 2006.07.30 07:44:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 30/07/2006 07:50:49
Tuxford says that the Hyperion is a blaster ship and yet it gets a cap bonus...
The MWD-Cap bonus is a complete non-bonus. It's bad on the Thorax and it's bad on the Deimos and even the Vindi would be better with another gun bonus. The Megathon is the best blaster ship in the game because it's bonuses are exactly what blasters need.
Gallente don't need another blaster ship, the mega does that job perfectly. Instead of the cap bonus an armor rep amt bonus (much like the minmatar shield boost bonus) would be far more beneficial. Notice that the gallente tier 3 is the only one that doesn't get a tank bonus.
The problem with blaster boats isn't the ship, it's the guns, it has been for over a year and it will continue to be so until they are actually adressed properly. HINT: more damage, more cap, less range. ---------- <Kayosoni> I'm actually normal |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:03:00 -
[2]
I agree, except about the fix.
The MWD cap penalty for BS sized mwd's should simply be removed. It serves little function on these ships anyway. The reason people don't fit one is in my experience only rarely related to the cap penalty, but much more likely to be related to the high fitting reequirements and the signature penalty.
So, simply remove the cap penalty or give battleships a built-in negation bonus for it. Then give the hyperion a tracking bonus or a small web range bonus or something that actually makes it a blasterboat.
I really don't see why I'd use a megathron over a hyperion as things stand now for situations where I fit rails. The tracking bonus is nice, but easily compensated for and oftenly not needed anyway when using rails.
However, I'm still in doubt as to wether situations involving blasters will actually faovur the hyperion that much. If anything does it's the additional midslots that are the kicker. Fitting 8 blasters is going to be hell anyway, and whatever you do nosses are going to own you anyway, so it comes down to ecm+blasters with injectortank. Wait, that's another domi isn't it ?
I think you failed to come up with a good idea for the gallente tbh.
Old blog |
Levin Cavil
Lucid Ambition
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:13:00 -
[3]
If you give the hyperion a traking bonus its just a better megathron. Instead of trying to make the hyperion a better blaster ship and then expecting the megathron to default to the rail ship why not just make the hyperion a rail ship?
Amarr get a gun and tank bonus Caldari get a gun and tank bonus Minmatar get a gun and tank bonus Gallente get a gun bonus and ... cap?
Youre gonna have to inject with the hyperion anyway so the extra base cap wont be that much of an advantage, it will be nice but not nearly as nice as a rep bonus. The rep bonus would give the gallente a ship that is more versatile and much more in line with the other tier 3s.
The biggest problem with the hyperion as a blaster boat is that the mega is already a blaster boat, it would be like giving the Caldari another missile boat, whats the point?
---------- <Kayosoni> I'm actually normal |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:20:00 -
[4]
Well, the problem is tha tthe hyperion alreayd looks like a better mega to me. Two more meds, one more gun = win.
Like I need that tracking bonus at 160km Not to mention that one good tracking comp already compensates for most of the missing bonus.
So yeah, let's cut the crap and redesign the Hyperion to be a medslot heavy allround hybrid ship. One that can use both rails and blasters but is mainly based around a good tank and higher then normal medslots.
I'd assume that in that case the megathron would finally get the changes it needs to become a viable blasterboat.
As thing stand now, I can only see the hyperion fail harshly or pwn solidly. Either wya there'll only be whining.
Old blog |
Levin Cavil
Lucid Ambition
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:33:00 -
[5]
I think we can agree that the bonus on the Hyperion needs changed, maybe we can even agree on the rep bonus.
Originally by: Rod Blaine I'd assume that in that case the megathron would finally get the changes it needs to become a viable blasterboat.
I have to disagree with this statement however. The megathron as a ship is fine, it needs no changes to be viable with blasters. I think the only needed change is to blasters themselves. I think that putting blaster cap use back to where it was before the buff and adding say 10-20% damage would be all that is needed for the disadvnatages to match the advantages of blasters.
Beyond that the only issue with the mega is fitting but all ships seem to have a problem with that anyway. ---------- <Kayosoni> I'm actually normal |
Hellspawn666
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:51:00 -
[6]
Hmm i think its an interesting idea tbh, alot of people dont fit MWD because it borks any tanking option. This could perhaps open up a tanking/blastership. But its all gonna depend on the PG/CPU and final fittings tbh. Personally i was a little dissapointed with the galante tier 3. I was hoping for a galante ewar but giving it a sensor damp bonus. Then perhaps a tracking disruptor bonus for Amarr, and minmitar with a target painter bonus. Caldari would have to be the odd one out, but they have needed a rail boat for a long time.
I think they could of been a little more inventive so we could have somthing that hasnt been seen on BS before to screw around with setups. More support BS in fleets would be nice since that lowers the gank factor in fleets so people dont get instant popped. More room for tactics means more fun.
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anotleam
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:04:00 -
[7]
Edited by: anotleam on 30/07/2006 09:05:21
Originally by: Levin Cavil
I think we can agree that the bonus on the Hyperion needs changed, maybe we can even agree on the rep bonus.
Originally by: Rod Blaine I'd assume that in that case the megathron would finally get the changes it needs to become a viable blasterboat.
I have to disagree with this statement however. The megathron as a ship is fine, it needs no changes to be viable with blasters. I think the only needed change is to blasters themselves. I think that putting blaster cap use back to where it was before the buff and adding say 10-20% damage would be all that is needed for the disadvnatages to match the advantages of blasters.
Beyond that the only issue with the mega is fitting but all ships seem to have a problem with that anyway.
Blasters are not the only problem. Just look at the megathron stats. It could've been just another tempest or geddon if the race weapon wasnt blasters. And what's that crap of the mwd bonus not being useful? You lose 25% of your cap when you fit one of those things for god's sake, and you HAVE to fit it! With the bonus, you lose a mere 6%. Cap is not important cause you're using capacitor charges? think again lol.You will need more charges, start using em sooner, you lose cap recharge rate too as your cap is smaller but needs the same time to recharge, etc. That, and if the Hyperion cap is big enough, we may be talking about viable blaster fittings without cap injectors (and very good and short-lived ones with em :P)
tweack blasters so you dont need a tracking bonus to hit a WEBBED BS first, then see about damage and cap usage.
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Luc Boye
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: anotleam Cap is not important cause you're using capacitor charges? think again lol.
Post with your main lol. -------------------------- MWD Cap Penalty? |
Leam
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Luc Boye
Originally by: anotleam Cap is not important cause you're using capacitor charges? think again lol.
Post with your main lol.
<=== my main. Anotleam is always the default and i forget to change it. I dont see why would it matter anyway :P.
I take from your quote that you disagree, and dont care losing 25% of your cap? oh please, i dont really feel like starting a math-fest here...
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Ithildin
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 10:08:00 -
[10]
Out of interest, how would a 5% reduction of MWD nerfs go? That means both the capacitor and the signature nerf. So that, in effect, a level 5 Hyperion would be able to fit 600% effectiveness afterburners.
It's just a thought. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
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bldyannoyed
Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.30 11:47:00 -
[11]
I agree with everyone who doesnt think the hyperion will be a better balsterboat than a mega.
POINT 1. MWD bonus, Total waste. I fly my blasterthron in full gank mode, with neutrons abd a plate. Cap is immaterial, and as i fire the MWd at most TWICE during an engagement a bonus to it is a waste.
POINT 2. No tracking bonus. Tracking at close range is absolutely crucial. Yes the Hype may have an extra turret, but with 37.5% less tracking at lvl 5 i honestly wouldnt be surprised to find it has less real world DPS than a mega.
POINT 3. Smaller drone bay. It has been well documented that 5 Tech 2 Heavy drones are worth nearly 500 DPS. The Hype loses that. Personally i dont use them, preffering webber drones, but again, teh Hype wont have that option to it either. Compared to my setup then, the Hypes extra mis is negated by the ned to fit a webber.
POINT 4. Lighter. Therefore less structure. A Neutrathron best survival chance its 7500 structure with 58% resists. The Hype presumably will have less structure, and presumably less armour as well.
POINT 5. Versatility. It has none.
Sorry for the long post
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delta2zero
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Posted - 2006.07.30 12:08:00 -
[12]
Quote: POINT 4. Lighter. Therefore less structure. A Neutrathron best survival chance its 7500 structure with 58% resists. The Hype presumably will have less structure, and presumably less armour as well.
dont forget that beeing lighter makes it faster!
that 15ms is going to make a world of difference! now us gallenete can have the massive imbalanced speed minmatar bs pilots have grown used to
as if gallenete would make a blasterboat , what is it suposed to counter? surely if gallenete hate the caldari and vice versa they would make ships to counter each others.
now the caldari have an uber sniper ship to counter the sniping mega.
so gallente get the hyperion to counter what?
all the gallente people specialised in rails are going to be training caldari BS skills if they havent got them allready
why doesnt the hyperion just get an MWD build in? the 2nd bonus is not a bonus unless u have an mwd anyway, so we get a ship that is forced into one role with not much choice on fittings
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Jago X
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Posted - 2006.07.30 12:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: bldyannoyed I agree with everyone who doesnt think the hyperion will be a better balsterboat than a mega.
POINT 1. MWD bonus, Total waste. I fly my blasterthron in full gank mode, with neutrons abd a plate. Cap is immaterial, and as i fire the MWd at most TWICE during an engagement a bonus to it is a waste.
POINT 2. No tracking bonus. Tracking at close range is absolutely crucial. Yes the Hype may have an extra turret, but with 37.5% less tracking at lvl 5 i honestly wouldnt be surprised to find it has less real world DPS than a mega.
POINT 3. Smaller drone bay. It has been well documented that 5 Tech 2 Heavy drones are worth nearly 500 DPS. The Hype loses that. Personally i dont use them, preffering webber drones, but again, teh Hype wont have that option to it either. Compared to my setup then, the Hypes extra mis is negated by the ned to fit a webber.
POINT 4. Lighter. Therefore less structure. A Neutrathron best survival chance its 7500 structure with 58% resists. The Hype presumably will have less structure, and presumably less armour as well.
POINT 5. Versatility. It has none.
Sorry for the long post
well i disagree with most of what people seem to be saying here.. we do want a proper dedicated blasterboat ... heck all the races apart from caldari (who do need one fleet BS) should get a close range designed Tier 3 BS - fleet is boring and yet CCP just bring out more and more stuff to make combat go in that dircetion while claiming that they want to nerf long range turets and make close rang combat more viable .
Anyway about the hyperion ... ill start with point 5 you made. 5>/ the bigggest problem with the mega as a blasterboat is its lack of versatility .. if the hype gets a 8, 6, 6 slot layout then that problem will be sloved. Either fit neutron IIs, a schield tank and damge mods/pdus in the lows for a gank + tank setup. Or fit armor tank + e-war mids + electron IIs... with 2 spare mids (after the usual four b-thron med slots), and four if your in a gang and can drop the web/scramble, it will be much more versatile. (OFC you could fit neuts + e-war mids + RCU/dmg mods also)
4/ Structure .. well the tier 3 in general will have more base hp i imagine so i wouldnt worry about this too much
3./ Agreed on the bigger drone bay
2./ Tracking - fly a domi with blasters ... its not such a big deal losing the tracking bonus .. infact againt BSs with the T2 high damage ammo it doesnt make any differences and against crusers ... well if you cant pwn cruisers with null as easily as you can in a mega then maybe thats a good thing - plus with two extra mids youd be able to fit an extra webber.
1./ Id love to see this MWD penalty (-25% cap) scrapped alltogether and the bonus changed to something different - a fallof bonus.
Yup a falloff bonus for this ship would actually make it useful in large gangs ... yes it would pwn the tempest BUT the tempest needs a rethink anyway - with ECM out of the equation it allready loses to a b-thron and i hope this new blasterboat will outperform the mega at this role - hence, either way, the tempest will be made pretty obselete.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:21:00 -
[14]
I think the Hyperion is gonna suck and i think it is completely unnecessary.
The Blasterthron is already a phenomenal blaster ship. At less than 10km ranges it is damn near unbeatable if set up right. The ONLY way to beat one is to keep it at range, using web drones, superior manouverability, being clever, OR to attack its cap very hard. Generally speaking the only thing id worry about fighting in one is a nos Dom.
If the Hyperion does end up working, its gonna be SERIOUSLY over powered. By being manouverable and having big cap the only 2 draw backs ( and imo the balances ) to the blasterthron are removed. The bloody thing will be unstoppable.
However, i dont think its gonna come to that cos, as ive already said in a previous post, i think its gonna suck the fat one.
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum Black Flag Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:47:00 -
[15]
i have no clue whos been calling for a dedicated blasterboat, but i definitely dont want another useless ridiculously short range ship.
and cap bonus.. please. we all know how usefull is this on pvp apoc.
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Jago X
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nahia Senne i have no clue whos been calling for a dedicated blasterboat, but i definitely dont want another useless ridiculously short range ship.
and cap bonus.. please. we all know how usefull is this on pvp apoc.
The fact is we either get a long range dedicated dampner boat or a short range blaster ship. The last thing eve needs is anymore encouragement for blobs and 200km fights .. atleast a blasterbaot will be FUN to fly in PvP... something which alot of people seem to be missing in their quest to get the gal Tier 3 BS into a lame rail/dampening boat with lots of mids so it can easily shield tank their lvl4 missions.
Besides, in the mega we allready have an excellent fleet ship .. does some of the best dps @ 200km+ and has a utility high slot which can actually be pretty useful in some fleet situations. BUT, the mega only works well as a blastership in 1v1, BSvBS, sub 10km fight where there is no heavy nos and no e-war invloved .. and we all know how often they come along on TQ
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Leam
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: bldyannoyed
POINT 3. Smaller drone bay. It has been well documented that 5 Tech 2 Heavy drones are worth nearly 500 DPS. The Hype loses that. Personally i dont use them, preffering webber drones, but again, teh Hype wont have that option to it either. Compared to my setup then, the Hypes extra mis is negated by the ned to fit a webber.
It has been very well documented? Let's see... 24dmg*1.92dmg multiplier= 46.08, divided by 2 rate of fire= 23.04
23.04x 1.25(25% heavy drone bonus)=28.8 and 28.8x1.1(advanced bonus)=31,68.
31.68x5= 158,4 dps (in a megathron).
And, when the "slighty reduced" hyperion dronebay was transformed in "no dronebay at all?.
Maths ftw
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Porro
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Leam maths stuff
You forgot drone interfacing, with drone spec 4 its 311dps. It still makes the gap between the thron and the hype smaller. ---------------------------------------------------- (22:01:14) (Sangxianc) you, porro, have madder skillzors than i, sang, do
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Leam
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: anotleam
Originally by: Porro
Originally by: Leam maths stuff
You forgot drone interfacing, with drone spec 4 its 311dps. It still makes the gap between the thron and the hype smaller.
Oh right thanks, i've been wondering why the results were so low the last half hour lol, i'll fix the calcs ^^
Grrr damn alt, that was me.
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anotleam
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Posted - 2006.07.30 14:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Porro
Originally by: Leam maths stuff
You forgot drone interfacing, with drone spec 4 its 311dps. It still makes the gap between the thron and the hype smaller.
Oh right thanks, i've been wondering why the results were so low the last half hour lol, i'll fix the calcs ^^
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Levin Cavil
Lucid Ambition
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 30/07/2006 18:34:38
Originally by: delta2zero that 15ms is going to make a world of difference! now us gallenete can have the massive imbalanced speed minmatar bs pilots have grown used to
Don't forget that if youre going 15ms faster you will just overshoot your target that much more and instead of being 10km on the wrong side you'll be 15km on the wrong side \o/.
Anyone that says Gallente need a specialized blaster boat has no clue what they are talking about. The Megathron is the best blaster ship you could ask for, hands down.
And still nobody has said why the cap bonus is better than a rep bonus. ---------- <Kayosoni> I'm actually normal |
kessah
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 19:09:00 -
[22]
crist id love to swap bonuses with hyperon and maelstrom would be awesome to have matari bs fast and light. --------------------------------------------------------
Forever Pirate |
Tsual
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.30 19:23:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tsual on 30/07/2006 19:24:44
Originally by: Levin Cavil
Anyone that says Gallente need a specialized blaster boat has no clue what they are talking about. The Megathron is the best blaster ship you could ask for, hands down.
Hmm Tuxfordens tier 3 ship blog stated:
Originally by: Tuxford
Now you might be asking your self what is the use of megathron then? Well not everything is better on the Hyperion, it has really crappy targetting range, and I mean really crappy. It also has smaller drone bay than Megathron and obviously worse tracking. Megathron would therefor be considerable better long range ship, while still being a decent blaster boat.
Now if we look at current Megathron version (flederation, navy, vindi) there is one ship that comes very near the the bonuses of the Hyperion the vindicator:
Special Ability: 25% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% Bonus to MicroWarpdrive capacitor penalty per level
So basicly Gallente get a "mini" vindicator as tier 3.
But then I also assume everyone already saw this.
******************** Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
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Leam
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 19:55:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Levin Cavil
Anyone that says Gallente need a specialized blaster boat has no clue what they are talking about. The Megathron is the best blaster ship you could ask for, hands down.
If you say that, i guess that a) You've never flown a thron, b) You're the most awesome pilot ever and dont realice of the multiple drawbacks compared with the rest of ships/fittings combos c) You fly it, and *think* it's perfect cause you can kill things in 6vs1 ganks.
BLATERS themselves have issues, probably if they fixed em megathron would work much better. Still, there is the crappy grid/cpu it has considering that you need to fit mwd and cap injector for it to work properly, plus the **** cap you have left after fitting the mwd.
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bldyannoyed
Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.31 01:01:00 -
[25]
Leam, it is clearly ypu that has never flown a Blasterthron.
The drawbacks u speak of are called BALANCE. I fly 1 and will take it 1 v 1 with any BS in the gang, cept mebbe a nos dom.
Nor is there anything wrong with blasters. Since the fix it is possible to set up a devastatingly effective Neutron fit. People say they should have more damage and stuff and they are clearly mental. The damage with neutrons and void is so extreme it renders any tank a waste of slots, NOTHING can survive it.
The idea of making a ship which is better at blasting than the mega is frankly sickening.
And as for the mega still having a place in the game.
The Rokh will exceed it as a sniper and ( if the devs *****pot plan works) the hype will exceed it as a blaster boat.
Mega therefore will be redundant.
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Jago X
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Posted - 2006.07.31 01:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: bldyannoyed Leam, it is clearly ypu that has never flown a Blasterthron.
The drawbacks u speak of are called BALANCE. I fly 1 and will take it 1 v 1 with any BS in the gang, cept mebbe a nos dom.
Nor is there anything wrong with blasters. Since the fix it is possible to set up a devastatingly effective Neutron fit. People say they should have more damage and stuff and they are clearly mental. The damage with neutrons and void is so extreme it renders any tank a waste of slots, NOTHING can survive it.
The idea of making a ship which is better at blasting than the mega is frankly sickening.
And as for the mega still having a place in the game.
The Rokh will exceed it as a sniper and ( if the devs *****pot plan works) the hype will exceed it as a blaster boat.
Mega therefore will be redundant.
You can compare a b-thron to a non-nossing, non-ewar ship in a 1v1 and think its overpowered. What the reality of the matter is is that in 80-90% of cases a tempest, or any other close range ship (which would often lose to a thron in a direct 1v1) is miles better.
Essentially the thron was never fast enough, never versatile enough (blaster boats need mids, the thron has none to spare) and never had enough cap. so yes we do need a proper blasterboat.
Also comparing the gallente/caldari bss and saying one will make the other redindant for fleet is complete rubbish, and not only because most people wont bother to train an extra race just for an extra 10% range .. the mega will also still outdamage the rohk at some ranges and has room for an anti frig launcher
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2006.07.31 01:26:00 -
[27]
Sry, gonna disagree with u here.
The Thron DOES have enuff cap when flown and setup correctly.
The coming ECM nerf will ( fingers crossed ) make this mid slot pish less of a factor.
There is absolutley nothing wrong with the blasterthron. Its DPS is utterly insane, to the point where it doesnt need a tank to survive a fight. Yes, its heavy, but the weight gives it HP and those HP are what keeps it alive. Make it lightweight and it'll get shredded.
And yes, in a fleet its less usefull as a blasterboat, but in a fleet close combat ships are virtually useless. Which is why u fit em for range.
Short range is always better suited to 1 v1 or skirmish, and in those situations the blasterthron is perfect. It BLASTS. If u want fancy EWAR fly a ******* scorp.
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Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.07.31 01:36:00 -
[28]
Ontop of that the "blaster" boat doesn't even get a good drone bay although the "sniper" battleship aka Megathron gets a fat dronebay....
High-Sec Piracy Recruitment |
Jago X
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Posted - 2006.07.31 01:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: fkingfurious Sry, gonna disagree with u here.
The Thron DOES have enuff cap when flown and setup correctly.
The coming ECM nerf will ( fingers crossed ) make this mid slot pish less of a factor.
There is absolutley nothing wrong with the blasterthron. Its DPS is utterly insane, to the point where it doesnt need a tank to survive a fight. Yes, its heavy, but the weight gives it HP and those HP are what keeps it alive. Make it lightweight and it'll get shredded.
And yes, in a fleet its less usefull as a blasterboat, but in a fleet close combat ships are virtually useless. Which is why u fit em for range.
Short range is always better suited to 1 v1 or skirmish, and in those situations the blasterthron is perfect. It BLASTS. If u want fancy EWAR fly a ******* scorp.
well im glad you seem to agree with me on the mega not becoming redundant as a fleet ship atleast
On the rest we shall just have to disagree ... ive spent to many times fitting a b-thron for gang work (and then spending most of the time in the fights trying to MWD into range) to be told the b-thron is prefect for skirmich situations. Also ...
Originally by: fkingfurious If u want fancy EWAR fly a ******* scorp.
i couldnt agree more .. this is the main reason why i think we need a blastership .. coz if we DONT get one then we get another fleet/e-war ship that just means more boring blobbing with one e-war ship locking down multiple opponents and ruining the fun of actually shooting back while you die .
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Cohkka
LoneWolf Mining R i s e
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Posted - 2006.07.31 01:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: fkingfurious There is absolutley nothing wrong with the blasterthron. Its DPS is utterly insane, to the point where it doesnt need a tank to survive a fight. Yes, its heavy, but the weight gives it HP and those HP are what keeps it alive. Make it lightweight and it'll get shredded.
Uhh? By your logic the scorpion should have more armor than the Megathron? Please, for the love of god, stop comparing EVE to real life.
Well, and what Kaeten said... Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
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