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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1490
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Posted - 2014.09.12 19:37:00 -
[991] - Quote
evepal wrote: This makes a nice segue into my follow up question, should CCP divulge information of their investigation into a player, if that outcome results in a ban? Is this pivotal based upon the popularity of the case, or the player at question?
Fair question and one worth considering.
In my province teachers who are accused of misconduct are investigated and the results of the investigation are published, names and all. The victims (underage) are not named but it is a scary blotter to read, every few months.
I do not know if this is done in the name of transparency or for the same reason gibbets and crosses used to be set up at the entrance to towns . . . as a warning. Problem is one of privacy. If later an appeal proves someone innocent (it happens) that seldom gets the same press and spread as a guilty verdict.
Me, I would settle for the occasional statistic or information release . . . LIKE what Falcon did as the OP of this thread. People were investigated and banned. I would also like if later there was the occasional 'upon appeal one of them had their ban overturned' showing that you do have recourse.
I Loved the fanfest presentation on security. Especially the ban statistics.
As a last aside. Did you know that we CSM members are the ONLY people in the game who have our true names and countries of residence trotted out officially? The rules themselves Dox us, to a certain extent, that is the price of the office.
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11476
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 19:38:00 -
[992] - Quote
evepal wrote:Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Gregor Parud wrote: I see that you're trying very hard, which is always hilarious. And the answer is no, they don't nor do they have to. If the rule is "don't be a **** or we'll kick you off the bus" and they see you being a **** just outside the bus they're perfectly within their right to say "stay out of my bus, I don't want your money".
Really not difficult to comprehend. But keep threadnaughting and e-lawyering because it's entertaining as hell.
Your analogy is flawed. A better one would be that you've been riding the bus for a couple of years. While on the bus you engage in some form of behavior every day. Every day you do the same thing on the bus, and the bus driver doesnt seem to have a problem with it. Then, out of the blue one day, the bus driver kicks you off the bus. He doesnt give a reason, but the following day he makes a vague statement about the form of behavior you had always engaged in was now against the rules. A couple of weeks later he kicks your friends off the bus, too. I am but a passenger on that bus. I'd like to know what the rules are so that I don't get a surprise kick off the bus as well. This is a fantastic example of a strawman, thank you for your contributions. There's no resemblance whatsoever. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11476
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 19:39:00 -
[993] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:As a last aside. Did you know that we CSM members are the ONLY people in the game who have our true names and countries of residence trotted out officially? The rules themselves Dox us, to a certain extent, that is the price of the office. I never understood why this is considered necessary, but I do know that it's one factor that drives away potential candidates.
I may have considered it if it weren't for that little detail. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
65
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Posted - 2014.09.12 19:45:00 -
[994] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote: Me, I would settle for the occasional statistic or information release . . . LIKE what Falcon did as the OP of this thread. People were investigated and banned. I would also like if later there was the occasional 'upon appeal one of them had their ban overturned' showing that you do have recourse.
I Loved the fanfest presentation on security. Especially the ban statistics.
I think that's a healthy compromise, that doesn't infringe onto personal information, but helps alleviate peoples concerns of transparency. I hope it's something that could be implemented without impeding the process itself.
My last question that I personally would like to have some opinions on, is: if the above information is made accessible not of CCPs doing, should they follow up on requests for further information into that ban?
That's the only exception I can think of to the above, and rounds off what I think most peoples concerns are with the process. Have I missed anything? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11476
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 19:48:00 -
[995] - Quote
evepal wrote:I think that's a healthy compromise, that doesn't infringe onto personal information But of course you wouldn't be satisfied with that. No, you want evidence, especially when you're talking to the victim, and particularly when posting of such evidence would invite more abuse upon the victim. But do you care about that? Of course not. Your opinion is clearly too important for petty things like the victim's safety to matter.
evepal wrote:My last question that I personally would like to have some opinions on, is: if the above information is made accessible not of CCPs doing, should they follow up on requests for further information into that ban? Clearly they should, at the cost of any expectation of privacy or security on behalf of the victim. Your curiosity must be satiated!
evepal wrote:Have I missed anything? Yeah, you missed the part where you've been a complete scumbag for the last few pages in the guise of "trying to have a rational discussion". Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7007
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 19:50:00 -
[996] - Quote
evepal wrote:
My last question that I personally would like to have some opinions on, is: if the above information is made accessible not of CCPs doing, should they follow up on requests for further information into that ban?
No, and they should issue a request or CAD order to have the information removed
Its sensitive information and it is not in the interests of the business to have it up.
By "should" I of course mean "If I was runnign the company" and not "its right or wrong".
For right or wrong, see my statement regarding it being CCP's game and they can do what they like. "Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
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Helene Fidard
5
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Posted - 2014.09.12 19:52:00 -
[997] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Me, I would settle for the occasional statistic or information release . . . LIKE what Falcon did as the OP of this thread. People were investigated and banned. I would also like if later there was the occasional 'upon appeal one of them had their ban overturned' showing that you do have recourse.
Just pointing out that in fact, neither of the points in bold was actually stated in the OP.
From information from other sources, we can come to the conclusion that these things are true.
But they were not stated by CCP here. |
Seven Koskanaiken
The Minutemen The Bastion
1348
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 19:53:00 -
[998] - Quote
Andski wrote:Be assured that CCP cared enough to delete the thread you posted back in March too, but not to actually look into the subject. They literally care more about covering up their inconsistency than about the inconsistency itself.
Right so what is the solution?
When the rules are too tight it seems CCP are in the wrong for (apparently) banning innocents idling in the bonus room.
When the rules are too lax CCP are in the wrong for letting nefarious gmail doxxers get away with their crimes.
Yea, the inconsistency is jarring, but there's only so many times you can yell "but ccp are inconsistent!" before it starts sounding like an Alex Jones youtube. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7007
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 19:54:00 -
[999] - Quote
Helene Fidard wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:Me, I would settle for the occasional statistic or information release . . . LIKE what Falcon did as the OP of this thread. People were investigated and banned. I would also like if later there was the occasional 'upon appeal one of them had their ban overturned' showing that you do have recourse. Just pointing out that in fact, neither of the points in bold was actually stated in the OP. From information from other sources, we can come to the conclusion that these things are true. But they were not stated by CCP here.
OMG you are soooo pretty! "Many have joined the battle, many have survived the tests and trials, but countless have fallen because they weren't the sharpest, the fastest thinking, the most devious, the most ruthless or most intelligent. -áLog in and Compete!"-á- CCP Falcon
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2179
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 19:54:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:La Rynx wrote:There is no roulette.
Yes, lets talk about a Senior GM dictating that telling people your alt is you will get you banned. Wrong.
ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
5568
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 19:59:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:As a last aside. Did you know that we CSM members are the ONLY people in the game who have our true names and countries of residence trotted out officially? The rules themselves Dox us, to a certain extent, that is the price of the office.
m
I think there was a thread on that last time changes to the whitepaper were being discussed. It's a ridiculous rule. It serves no legitimate purpose for me to know your name and where you live. All the electoral "benefits" the rule could provide can be provided by other, more narrow rules that don't, y'know, expose the candidates to potential RL harassment.
But there CCP is, telling us all the information needed to find where you live (I won't because I'm really lazy and also not nuts, but the information is out there for the industrious crazies to use, and CCP put it out there).
I'm making ribs today, want me to send you one? (No promises on food safety after a trip through the mail, but it'll leave here warm and delicious).
*Aside* I was going to toss in a joke relating to how a package of ribs fits a lot of the criteria for deciding that a suspicious package is dangerous, but I don't think this is quite the context for that. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon |
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
65
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:04:00 -
[1002] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:evepal wrote:Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Your analogy is flawed. A better one would be that you've been riding the bus for a couple of years. While on the bus you engage in some form of behavior every day. Every day you do the same thing on the bus, and the bus driver doesnt seem to have a problem with it. Then, out of the blue one day, the bus driver kicks you off the bus. He doesnt give a reason, but the following day he makes a vague statement about the form of behavior you had always engaged in was now against the rules. A couple of weeks later he kicks your friends off the bus, too.
I am but a passenger on that bus. I'd like to know what the rules are so that I don't get a surprise kick off the bus as well.
This is a fantastic example of a strawman, thank you for your contributions. There's no resemblance whatsoever.
So it's true that, as that analogy depicts, that real life harassment has been a daily occurance in EvE, and only recently CCP have ruled that harassment a bannable offence? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11479
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:08:00 -
[1003] - Quote
evepal wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:evepal wrote:Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Your analogy is flawed. A better one would be that you've been riding the bus for a couple of years. While on the bus you engage in some form of behavior every day. Every day you do the same thing on the bus, and the bus driver doesnt seem to have a problem with it. Then, out of the blue one day, the bus driver kicks you off the bus. He doesnt give a reason, but the following day he makes a vague statement about the form of behavior you had always engaged in was now against the rules. A couple of weeks later he kicks your friends off the bus, too.
I am but a passenger on that bus. I'd like to know what the rules are so that I don't get a surprise kick off the bus as well.
This is a fantastic example of a strawman, thank you for your contributions. There's no resemblance whatsoever. So it's true that, as that analogy depicts, that real life harassment has been a daily occurance in EvE, and only recently CCP have ruled that harassment a bannable offence? That's not what the analogy says either. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11479
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:10:00 -
[1004] - Quote
**** off, ISD. You're literally ruining the discussion when you delete so many posts like that. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
65
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:10:00 -
[1005] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:That's not what the analogy says either.
So then, what does it say? You're going to have to define it for me, there's a lot of grey area here. |
Riffasalo Heleneto
Space Priests Emergent Roleplaying Group
1
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Posted - 2014.09.12 20:18:00 -
[1006] - Quote
Cismet wrote:Well, not that I expect anyone to care, but it's important that CCP understand. I just cancelled my subscription. CCP's attitude in this matter is utterly unconscionable and Falcon's passive aggressive and borderline insulting posts are unacceptable. I can only hope that CCP learn the hard way when subscriber numbers drop.
Congratulations Falcon, hope you're proud.
I resubscribed, it is important that CCP understand this will bring players back to the game.
CCP's attitude is commendable and the community management is welcome.
I can only hope CCP learn to continue down this path.
Congratulations Falcon, I'm proud of you.
Regards, Riff. |
Paranoid Loyd
1825
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:21:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Can't we all just get along blow each other up? "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
5570
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:21:00 -
[1008] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:La Rynx wrote:There is no roulette.
Yes, lets talk about a Senior GM dictating that telling people your alt is you will get you banned. Wrong.
The final result in that thread isn't the issue. The fact that a Senior GM told people at any time that my saying "I am also Pipa Porto" could be against the TOS indicates that dealing with the GMs is like playing roulette.
Compare that post to GM Karidor's post earlier in that same thread:
GM Karidor wrote:What needs to be kept in mind regarding impersonations is that all characters involved are seen as their own, independent entity, which effectively means it's quite possible that a situation may appear where a player impersonates his trustworthy main character using an alt character located on the same account.
Again, that this interpretation was later retracted (thankfully) doesn't change the fact that a Senior GM made and publicly posted it. Nor does the reason why the GM's interpretation was overturned (whether because the GM was that muddled, the rules that unclear, or the new rules changed is interesting, but irrelevant).
But this is all wildly off topic, and I would have thought that the ISDs wouldn't dive into a discussion solely to engage in an off-topic tangent. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:23:00 -
[1009] - Quote
Cismet wrote:Well, not that I expect anyone to care, but it's important that CCP understand. I just cancelled my subscription. CCP's attitude in this matter is utterly unconscionable and Falcon's passive aggressive and borderline insulting posts are unacceptable. I can only hope that CCP learn the hard way when subscriber numbers drop.
Bye!
AAhh ganker tears. You bail out on rumors, having sympathy for? A group of griefers? Loosing those will benefit New Eden
Forum Main |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11479
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:25:00 -
[1010] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:But this is all wildly off topic, and I would have thought that the ISDs wouldn't dive into a discussion solely to engage in an off-topic tangent. Especially considering they just blatantly deleted a bunch of posts that didn't violate any rule other than being somewhat off topic. I think the rule against abuse of ISDs is stupid, because they clearly have no problem just wantonly deleting our posts, something which I'd argue constitutes abuse of its own.
The majority of ISD who post here are power hungry dicks. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1385
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:29:00 -
[1011] - Quote
1) Where is the CSM on fighting on behalf of the players banned (and the community) to ensure guilt-by-association bans were not done as some are claiming occurred? Prove to me the CSM aren't just koolaid drinkers afraid to jeopardize their fanfest tickets...
2) Did any of these bans for "real life harassment" actually involve someone calling the 'victims' real-life phone, cell phone, show up at real life residence or workplace, or take place in the context of their real-life persona? OR, did it all take just place in the gaming context of EvE toons, roleplay and EvE gaming assets?
If it is truly 'real life harassment', wouldn't there be real life criminal mechanisms to pursue that? The fact that CCP doesn't just refer such cases to the legal systems and execute bans based on the outcome of those legal findings is sadly telling, IMHO...
CCP *appears* to be banning people under blanket abstractions of 'real life harassment' announcements, to give them cover for banning people they don't LIKE, while avoiding the 'trouble' of having to defend such accusations in the real world.
(The pansies of EvE then give them additional cover by nodding sagely, as they reflect perhaps on personal past-life real bullying or butthurt angst they experienced...)
The key here though is this. CCP should sack up and ban people because they don't like them or their playstyle, and call it as such. Then, accept the community reaction to that.
Be honest.
If you are going with 'real world harassment' claims though, you should sack up and prove it in the real world...IMHO. Don't want to get into the legal business? Fine, stop calling it 'real life harassment' then, and ban them because you don't like them, and let the community know that.
Done.
F
Would you like to know more? |
Josef Djugashvilis
2514
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Posted - 2014.09.12 20:29:00 -
[1012] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:RubyPorto wrote:But this is all wildly off topic, and I would have thought that the ISDs wouldn't dive into a discussion solely to engage in an off-topic tangent. Especially considering they just blatantly deleted a bunch of posts that didn't violate any rule other than being somewhat off topic. I think the rule against abuse of ISDs is stupid, because they clearly have no problem just wantonly deleting our posts, something which I'd argue constitutes abuse of its own. The majority of ISD who post here are power hungry dicks.
Golly, so much anger in so few words.
Take a coffee break before you risk a forum ban. This is not a signature. |
Helene Fidard
5
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Posted - 2014.09.12 20:31:00 -
[1013] - Quote
I'm really impressed that the ISD managed to delete an on-topic post from a CSM, but not the pages and pages of blithering beforehand. |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
53
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Posted - 2014.09.12 20:32:00 -
[1014] - Quote
grrr CCP grrr GM grrr ISD
sure guys...
Not enough data to come to a final conclusion if every ban was ok. BUT CCP does not swing the ban hammer lightly.
Explain details to the rules? It has been explained why not and clearly enough. In fact it would be bad for this "holy sandbox" the same people cry about.
there is no real discussion anymore. Forum Main |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
53
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Posted - 2014.09.12 20:33:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:RubyPorto wrote:But this is all wildly off topic, and I would have thought that the ISDs wouldn't dive into a discussion solely to engage in an off-topic tangent. Especially considering they just blatantly deleted a bunch of posts that didn't violate any rule other than being somewhat off topic. I think the rule against abuse of ISDs is stupid, because they clearly have no problem just wantonly deleting our posts, something which I'd argue constitutes abuse of its own. The majority of ISD who post here are power hungry dicks. Golly, so much anger in so few words. Take a coffee break before you risk a forum ban.
I would recommend tea or hot milk. Forum Main |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11479
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:34:00 -
[1016] - Quote
You know a forum ban would actually be a pretty terrible thing if it weren't for the fact that much of what I say that isn't rule-breaking gets deleted anyway.
It's almost as if ISD have quotas to meet or something. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11479
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:35:00 -
[1017] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:CCP does not swing the ban hammer lightly. So you and other people have said. I have my doubts. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
66
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 20:36:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: 1) Where is the CSM on fighting on behalf of the players banned (and the community) to ensure guilt-by-association bans were not done as some are claiming occurred? Prove to me the CSM aren't just koolaid drinkers afraid to jeopardize their fanfest tickets...
Here's one link that shows a CSM member calling that into question: http://funkybacon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/as-ban-hammer-swings.html Source: - Funkybacon, CSM9. Please don't provide anecdotal evidence, and follow it up by questioning members who clearly are speaking on behalf of those who are banned.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Be honest.
As for the rest of your points, they've been answered by many people prior to your post, from both view points. Please don't try to make this discussion cyclical, that doesn't help for the community to come to a conclusion on the matter. |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
53
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Posted - 2014.09.12 20:42:00 -
[1019] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Admittedly, this is what makes it extremely difficult for me to empathize with these individuals. They actually enjoy taunting and provoking negative reactions from others. And they proudly post and display "tear collection" trophies publicly so that others like them can enjoy and stroke their ego. If they can get their victims to rage-quit or rage-banned, that's just the sweet cherry on top. It's very sadistic behavior.
And by no means am I suggesting "they deserve to be doxxed" or threatened in real life. No one does. But how much empathy could you have for someone like this? They enjoy making others angry, upset, and miserable for cheap laughs and giggles.
One argument that come often from "their" side is, thats just "a game" and "pixels shooting pixels", it is that hypocrisy, an elobaret lie just to get more emotional responses.
And often when the **** hits the fan, it its the innocent and the noninvolved. Its realy bad that those guys mother cried, i really really hate something like that.
But playing with emotional resonses is playing with old bombs. Some might blow right into your face.
Forum Main |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11479
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Posted - 2014.09.12 20:45:00 -
[1020] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Admittedly, this is what makes it extremely difficult for me to empathize with these individuals. They actually enjoy taunting and provoking negative reactions from others. And they proudly post and display "tear collection" trophies publicly so that others like them can enjoy and stroke their ego. If they can get their victims to rage-quit or rage-banned, that's just the sweet cherry on top. It's very sadistic behavior.
And by no means am I suggesting "they deserve to be doxxed" or threatened in real life. No one does. But how much empathy could you have for someone like this? They enjoy making others angry, upset, and miserable for cheap laughs and giggles. One argument that come often from "their" side is, thats just "a game" and "pixels shooting pixels", it is that hypocrisy, an elobaret lie just to get more emotional responses. And often when the **** hits the fan, it its the innocent and the noninvolved. Its realy bad that those guys mother cried, i really really hate something like that. But playing with emotional resonses is playing with old bombs. Some might blow right into your face. No.
Remiel was playing EVE in a perfectly acceptable and legitimate way. This does not ******* excuse doxing and real life threats to person and family. If you think so you are blaming the victim. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
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