Huh, what happened now?

There is something that has always bothered me about this separation of the "virtual game world" and "the real world".

Every person playing the game is in the real world. Every computer being used for play is in the real world. Every word seen on a computer screen is shown on a screen in the real world and read by a person in the real world.

It would seem that the game world consists of bytes in a computer, and nothing more. So this statement "However, it is important to remember that the EVE universe is a virtual world, and behavior of this nature should remain firmly within that virtual world. " means that harassment type behavior cannot be displayed on any computer screen to any person, because as soon as it is, that behavior enters the real world.

Likely someone forced another player to do something against his will out-of-game using in-game assets as leverage. Basically more tools who can't separate a game from reality and who therefore go after the player, instead of the character he plays with using the accepted in-game rules.

I find it highly delusional to accept cruelty on others with the excuse that "nothing real" is involved. Suffering is *always* real, no matter the cause.

I find it highly delusional to accept cruelty on others with the excuse that "nothing real" is involved. Suffering is *always* real, no matter the cause.

There is something that has always bothered me about this separation of the "virtual game world" and "the real world".

Every person playing the game is in the real world. Every computer being used for play is in the real world. Every word seen on a computer screen is shown on a screen in the real world and read by a person in the real world.

It would seem that the game world consists of bytes in a computer, and nothing more. So this statement "However, it is important to remember that the EVE universe is a virtual world, and behavior of this nature should remain firmly within that virtual world. " means that harassment type behavior cannot be displayed on any computer screen to any person, because as soon as it is, that behavior enters the real world.

The one who has trouble with the reality/virtual seperation is the one who gets leveraged by pixels.

Next time you see a kid crying because their parents won't buy them sweets you better go save them from all that suffering.

Can you harass someone in real life if you don't know who that person is in real life?

If you've ever been on the receiving end of some persistent & aggressive telephone marketing, you'd know the (obvious) answer to this.

If you've ever been on the receiving end of some persistent & aggressive telephone marketing, you'd know the (obvious) answer to this.

There is something that has always bothered me about this separation of the "virtual game world" and "the real world".

Every person playing the game is in the real world. Every computer being used for play is in the real world. Every word seen on a computer screen is shown on a screen in the real world and read by a person in the real world.

It would seem that the game world consists of bytes in a computer, and nothing more. So this statement "However, it is important to remember that the EVE universe is a virtual world, and behavior of this nature should remain firmly within that virtual world. " means that harassment type behavior cannot be displayed on any computer screen to any person, because as soon as it is, that behavior enters the real world.

So, we don't have a list of people who have been banned, and we don't have a list of reasons why, just that its 'real life harassment.

This is like a dictatorship executing political rivals for :reasons:
I wish there was more transparency in these decisions, for all we know none of these people were even warned.

Oh look, more "Bonus Room" stuffs...

Looks like E1 is still going strong!

Ero has been abiding by his ban since it went into effect, and has not been involved in the bonus rooms since then.

I don't really know what the bonus room thing is, nor do I care. But does this announcement mean that we can no longer ransom and/or extort players as part of pirate activities? Because that's what it sounds like.

From reddit, the dude that got banned was involved with convincing people to pod themselves ~50 times without updating clones.

We can ransom, scam, repeatedly kill, steal, laugh at, point fingers and whatever you want to do (within the EULA)... INGAME against the CHARACTER. The second you start to target the PERSON behind the character is where the problem potentially will arise and then it depends on the intent, severity and CCP's discretion what, if any, the implications will be.

So people who have a working brain and see the game for what it is and leave it all in game, no problems there, go have fun. But for the few folks who apparently have issues making that clear distinction between a game and RL (or do this on purpose for whatever psychiatric evaluation-worthy reason) it, again, needs to be made official and public that CCP doesn't accept that ****.

Anyone out of game interaction with the person rather than the character, so recordings would probably be a good guess :P

Are recordings any different than chat logs in terms of their nature?

The only way I can see for this to be true is based on a technicality, because EVE doesn't provide the capability for you to record voice chat, and any communication out-of-game, even about in-game activities, can be considered can be considered out-of-character.

For example, can a person be banned for ransoming a corporation member in an awox-style attack, if he's communicating with the victim on a corporate TS/Vent server, and not using in-game chat?

Right, I understand this. But what I want to know is what stops the victim from claiming that he was being harassed as a "person behind the character" each time someone else tries to do something he doesn't like. Because from what I've read on this matter so far, it doesn't look like the "bonus room" scamming involved any sort of out-of-game interpersonal relations in which people had to reveal their identities, or anything of that nature. I could be wrong of course. If you were ransoming me right now, what would stop me from claiming that your actions made me cry/depressed/suicidal in real life, and that I was tangibly affected out of game by your behavior? Or that I was forced to buy a PLEX to pay the ransom you demanded, because I had no ISK otherwise, and didn't want to lose my ship?

I just want CCP to address these inconsistencies.

Keep in mind I'm not picking sides here. I haven't yet developed a stance on this bonus room thing, which I'm just now becoming familiar with.

had all their stuff taken away

Seriously. Just stop posting. There is nothing you will post that hasn't been gone over and answered a dozen times in the thead linked in the OP.

Okay, maybe a little harsh but I really don't want to see this thread turn into a clone argument where everyone does their best to spin facts and come up with bizarre outlier examples to fit a point of view. So take a break and read all 100+ pages of the other thread. Then come on back and post when you have some understanding of the whole mess.

Mr Epeen

There's a 3 hour recording on sound-cloud of a man and his wife taken past breaking point, when they already had possession of all his assets. Not only did they not stop when it when it was clear that the man was agitated well beyond necessary, but they further increased their efforts to humiliate him. To top this off, they then uploaded the audio of this as a trophy for what great job they had done to these individuals, and shared them publicly.

+stuff

You should focus on writing fewer, but more correct words. I couldn't count the number of times I had to correct this one when the original E1 drama was on. There's other issues too, but I leave them as an exercise for the reader.

So is the line for real-life harassment going to remain vague?

Some of us enjoy harming other players with a passion, and the boundaries between character and person are bound to be crossed without clear guidelines on what isn't allowed.

If you think you might have crossed a line, you probably did. Clear lines would only be abused and make a mess for the GMs. With a grey area, they can better decide on a case by case basis without internet lawyers going "technically" on them.

If that's not true (despite the countless articles stating otherwise versus your word), the rest of what I said is true. The quantity of what is taken is regardless of the fact that they took it further than to seek in game profit - to which you don't deny.

You wish to discredit the entire post by the means of critiquing one point, as if that somehow invalidates the rest - but I think anyone with a modicum of human decency will acknowledge with the basis of my response.

The average new order player really doesn't tick the same way as most other players in the game.

So is the line for real-life harassment going to remain vague?

Some of us enjoy harming other players with a passion, and the boundaries between character and person are bound to be crossed without clear guidelines on what isn't allowed.

It shouldn't matter even if people go "technically" on them. They have final say.

Clear guidelines will tell people who don't know when to stop, when to stop. The average new order player really doesn't tick the same way as most other players in the game.

It's not CCPs job to tell you how to be a decent human to someone. If you struggle with this fact, being banned on EvE is the least of your concern, seeing as harassment is enshrined into public law by many countries.

People will always cry it's vague to their specific situation, they'll continue to attempt to weasel out of their situation and validate that they're not horrible people, in some sort of attempt to make themselves believe that. People attempt to weasel in court, so why wouldn't they do this in a game? So what's the alternative, just simply disregard rules altogether?

No, you let humans make a decision that's supportive on public consensus. Which is what they have done, and will continue to do so. If you don't like it, perhaps you should, what's the word... HTFU.

Is this an ad hominem or an appeal to emotion? I'm not quite sure, but either way, declaring anyone who disagrees with you to be subhuman doesn't hold much water.

As regards the rest of your post being right, you compare SWAT teams getting sent to someone's house, which is wrong for various reasons and about which nothing can be done once it is set in motion, to a pseudo-gameshow where the person has to voluntarily give up their stuffs and thereafter has the option to leave at any time - at only the cost of t he stuff previously voluntarily forfeited.


If what the likes of E1 does is so bad, you'd think you'd be able to criticise what was actually done, rather than relying on false analogies and misrepresentations.

This post brought to you by InsomniaGäó.

can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?

Conveniently you disregard the whole section where I describe Sunk Cost Investment, also known as the escalation of commitment. No dispute, just ignored to invoke victim blaming.

Taking someone's items doesn't imply by force, either. That's your interpretation of the context, perhaps a Freudian slip even. I merely meant it as in receiving the items, which is completely within definition of the word. Go grab a dictionary.

Oh and as you're referring to that image for both the "appeal to emotion", and "ad hominem", I raise you "the fallacy fallacy", "no true scotsman", and "tu quoque".

It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.
...
Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.

It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.

No, it kind of is your job to do this.

Case in point: if I am ransoming someone, and they tell me that while they're going to pay the ransom, this will also cause them to cut back on their food expenditures for the month and/or skip meals, does this constitute as harassing someone out of the game? Is this something that can get me punished, were my victim to make such a claim in a support petition?

Because I don't see any better example of affecting someone's real-life well-being than this. Causing someone to do something detrimental to their health as a result of my in-game actions appears to be as much of a real-life effect as something can be.

It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.

It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

We can ransom, scam, repeatedly kill, steal, laugh at, point fingers and whatever you want to do (within the EULA)... INGAME against the CHARACTER. The second you start to target the PERSON behind the character is where the problem potentially will arise and then it depends on the intent, severity and CCP's discretion what, if any, the implications will be.

So people who have a working brain and see the game for what it is and leave it all in game, no problems there, go have fun. But for the few folks who apparently have issues making that clear distinction between a game and RL (or do this on purpose for whatever psychiatric evaluation-worthy reason) it, again, needs to be made official and public that CCP doesn't accept that ****.

Anyone out of game interaction with the person rather than the character, so recordings would probably be a good guess :P

Now, I absolutely love scamming and making people sing for their pod (even if they still blow it up anyway). I however, do not appreciate when people find it necessary to break an individual down to point of physical distress for the sake of self enjoyment alone. There is no other word that describes it better, than simply 'harassment'. .

[quote=Destiny Corrupted]Case in point?

I'd say you missed it entirely.

the easy way to deal with those is to simply not answer the phone to numbers you don't recognise, and if you do answer one then you can always hang up with one button press.

So is the line for real-life harassment going to remain vague?

Some of us enjoy harming other players with a passion, and the boundaries between character and person are bound to be crossed without clear guidelines on what isn't allowed.

If you think you might have crossed a line, you probably did. Clear lines would only be abused and make a mess for the GMs. With a grey area, they can better decide on a case by case basis without internet lawyers going "technically" on them.

[quote=CCP Falcon]
tl;dr to scammers/gankers. If you can't figure out where the line is, that's a personal problem and you should probably see about some counseling irl. Because the rest of us know when and where we have to stop.

No, it kind of is your job to do this.

Case in point: if I am ransoming someone, and they tell me that while they're going to pay the ransom, this will also cause them to cut back on their food expenditures for the month and/or skip meals, does this constitute as harassing someone out of the game? Is this something that can get me punished, were my victim to make such a claim in a support petition?

Because I don't see any better example of affecting someone's real-life well-being than this. Causing someone to do something detrimental to their health as a result of my in-game actions appears to be as much of a real-life effect as something can be.

Okay, then enlighten us on when and where.

If you can't figure out where the line is, that's a personal problem and you should probably see about some counseling irl.

I'm here for the sole purpose of amusing Mr Epeen with my bizzaro post train.

Share: Cite / link:
ha-+rass (h-rs, hrs)
tr.v. ha-+rassed, ha-+rass-+ing, ha-+rass-+es
1. To irritate or torment persistently.
2. To wear out; exhaust.
3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.

"Harassment" isn't the issue. We harass each other in-game ALL THE TIME. A hell-camp is harassment. Suicide ganking is harassment. We've recently hell-camped some inhabitants of 5zxx-k until they are no-longer able to live in that system. (Thank you CCP, for the wonderful mordus legion ships, now in CFC control)

What we want to know is when it crosses the fourth wall into REAL LIFE harassment.

The people involved in the bonus room do not persistently target anyone over days or weeks. Nor do we follow anyone home or stalk anyone. Though I have no doubt that the tear collection is an intense experience, it is done in a single incident of scamming, and no one is forcing anyone to stay on our coms. People have left our coms on their own you know.

If you do not give clarification, there will be no end to the speculation, and that in itself can do more harm to your public image than any debate over rules and rule-skirting can.

What's it got to do with anything? Sure, we can study the reasons why people don't walk away from bad situations, but that doesn't change the fact that they can walk away. Distinctly different from swatting, where the ordeal cannot be terminated with a single button press.

If you meant that someone received the items, why not say so instead of saying they were taken? Because it doesn't sound as good. "Oh no the evil sociopaths received all my items!!".

A very fancy way of saying I'm attacking your argument rather than your conclusion. Well, I am.

the other day, one of our FCs raged because people didn't bring enough dictors

here is a recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHIshCZjoH0

he is obviously emotionally agitated and extremely distressed.

can i please get everyone in the fleet banned for not bringing enough dictors ? (except of course the two people who did and the poor FC who raged)

i have also been called a african american vagina a few times by a guy called Vince Draken. I don't like words like that. please ban him.

Stop posting legitimate posts that make me look out to be an ***. How can I argue the fine line when you don't present one? I'll just have to dismiss it entirely.

Gee, why not just stop humiliating people on coms entirely? It's not like "bonus rooms" are an essential part of the game. Stick to playing to the game and chatting in local, and avoid all doubt.

FTFY.

It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.

Yes, or no.

Are song ransoms legal?

Is the line here?

Since when is singing songs humiliating?

You know full well, that if they say it's ok, these douchecicles will just strain that ruling to its limit and will then try to rules lawyer their way out of trouble when they're caught bullying people again.

It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. [Emphasis added.]

GÇöJustice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 U.S. 184 (1964), regarding possible obscenity in The Lovers.

The above is posted for those arguing edge cases and saying yea but. Please read bold. I really cannot understand the people arguing for a bright line. Unless of course they are trying to flirt with it.

Great now we have a pornography expert in the forums...

The really funny part is that, a while back, I was doxxed, stalked, and my life threatened by a butthurt carebear whose corp I had awoxed, back when neutral logi didn't get suspect flags. Hence why I post on an alt, and have since largely abandoned my old main account.

CCP did nothing. Told me to contact my local law enforcement, who just laughed.

That's what really pisses me off about all of this. Tears over video game money necessitate bans, sending me a picture of my own house through the in game email client does not.

Great now we have a pornography expert in the forums...

Interesting. Non Bonus Room folks banned too?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2g24cl/massive_banwave_hits_the_dark_side_of_eve/

I think there's more than one of those here. 96% male is a good indication.

For my own behaviour if this were to ever be a thing I faced in the future - choices and consequences apply.

I think I have an ok handle on what constitutes harassment, but if I end up across that line at some point in CCPs view, then ok. Won't stop me from playing my game the way I want to play it, just have to accept that CCP have made it clear on a few occasions that harassment is not tolerated.

Up to my good judgement to be able to know where the line exists on individual matters and if I screw up, my fault.

It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.

This is CCP's game.
They make the rules and guidelines and they are entitled to have grey areas and make judgement upon them.
Having said that; this is a character based game. You are not literally you in this game.
You're character is an avatar. This avatar can communicate in game. Meaning you can speak to others and sing to others.

There are things your in game avatar cannot do however.
They cannot send you a picture of themselves where they are smeared in mayo for instance. Think about what the other persons avatar is legally and physically capable of doing in game and you will be less likely to be concerned about what you are doing is right or wrong. If you are trying to push an edge case or are saying yea but; please refer to sentence one and two.

yes, that is your job.

to play eve we have to agree to terms/conditons of use blah blah.

if you're not going to tell us what the T&Cs are, how are we meant to follow them?

You guys are far too creative and way too clever for us to have a black and white, do or die policy. There needs to be some flexibility when dealing with edge cases and oddball situations that come up.

Since you missed it:




But maybe your point is that in this particular case it is too ambiguous?

that's not ambiguous in the slightest. it simply says nothing. CCP want their cake and eat it.

I'll elaborate later, i have to get ready for work.

Okay, so then you support the bonus room.

But maybe your point is that in this particular case it is too ambiguous?

Since you missed it:




But maybe your point is that in this particular case it is too ambiguous?

My point is that subjectivity allows for, and encourages personal bias.

And the GM staff are carebear friendly, and it shows.

I don't want to get banned for hurting someone's feelings when I blow up their ship...

My name.... this is also a matter.

The absence of a clear line means that you won't see consistent treatment from the GMs. Two similar cases could be treated entirely differently, depending on who gets to process a ticket. And that's a very dangerous position to take on the issue.

I think what happened is since CCP Falcon gave the anti ganking crowd the cold shoulder they found someone else who would listen. That person took the opportunity to lay some smackdown on the gankers. I know players like Veers are probably so excited now..

I don't want to get banned for hurting someone's feelings when I blow up their ship...

So the guys scammed and trolled the hell out of people. Big Deal. Thats within EULA. If people are getting banned for trolling on teamspeak then you might as well ban half of every big alliance out there.

If that was even remotely likely to be what happens, there'd be about 6 people subbed right now since the other 299,994 would have been banned.

Could you and your lickspittle Kaarous at least try to come up with something close to plausible to cry over. It's not that I don't like your tears. It's just that they're not as tasty when they're so easy to harvest.

Mr Epeen

TBH some of the bonus room stuff went a bit too far...

I think there's a middle ground where some need to get thicker skin while others need to be a little bit more careful about what they do..

All I'm saying is make the rules clear... I don't want to be smashed by CCP for breaking some secret rule.

If that was even remotely likely to be what happens, there'd be about 6 people subbed right now since the other 299,994 would have been banned.

Could you and your lickspittle Kaarous at least try to come up with something close to plausible to cry over. It's not that I don't like your tears. It's just that they're not as tasty when they're so easy to harvest.

Mr Epeen

Sure. Let me know when you've been doxed and had your family threatened by players in the game, and CCP does nothing about it. I get what you're saying, I do, but the inconsistency is undeniable when you've experienced it first hand. I even put up the evidence of it for people to see and was dismissed as 'crying'. I assure you, I never cried a tear. The people responsible had a little visit from the police and, unfortunately, the rest is subject to a nondisclosure agreement, but I can tell you this much - the police gave me some information that will allow me to hold CCP fully accountable to the law should it ever happen again based on their own decisions in policy management so far.

So I'm not crying. I'm hoping I don't get doxed again but, there's also a small part of me that hopes I do. I love EVE, and I love CCP too. I love them so much that I just can't allow them to fall for the trap of double standards.

Uh oh.

Mr Epeen

They stood next to the sign looking out at the long grass. Right next to them was a sign reading 'Danger, Minefield'

"Where are the mines?" The thin one asked.

"Out there, somewhere." The man with the mustache replied.

"But I want to know where, so I can go into the field anytime I want."

"Not gonna happen. You con go play there, though I will think you stupid for doing so and I'd appreciate if you would let me walk back a ways, I just had this jacket cleaned." The teeth glinted as a smile grew.

"But what about back there? Are there mines there?" The thin man pointed to where they had been for days.

"Doubt it. We been there for a long time and ain't nobody blown up yet. Nah. Sign says over there and I tend to believe it."

"But what if I want to know for sure? Where the edges are."

The grin widened even more. "Let somebody else go first. Like I said, I'll be over there making a drink and watching from a safe distance. There are lots of fields to play in, that one never was to my taste and so I don't see that the minefield makes that big a difference. Those who go play there, well that would be Darwinism at its best, eh?"

m

No, I'm honestly hoping it doesn't come to that at all. If it happens again, the very first thing I'll do is go through the proper channels of the petition system, as I did last time, in the hope that CCP does what they're apparently committed to doing - making their online community a secure environment where real life harassment is not allowed to perpetuate.

I'm 100% down with that ideal. I just want to see them enforce it with consistency.

They won't. There are two sets of rules, for two kinds of players.

That's what I've been forced to conclude since the guy who told me that (and keep in mind that I cleaned it up a lot) he hopes I get aids and give it to my wife, is somehow still playing the game.

*snip*

If that was even remotely likely to be what happens, there'd be about 6 people subbed right now since the other 299,994 would have been banned.

Could you and your lickspittle Kaarous at least try to come up with something close to plausible to cry over. It's not that I don't like your tears. It's just that they're not as tasty when they're so easy to harvest.

Mr Epeen

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

...

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

...

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Close, but no cigar.

It's more like a man who wakes up one day to find a sign that says "minefield" on his front yard, where he's lived for a while without any problems.

People tell him, "oh, just figure it out for yourself".

Does that man have a right to be upset, or not?

Exactly how many times have stepped on a land mine?

Have you been doing the things that got the others blown up?

If you have stepped on one you now know better.

No, I'm honestly hoping it doesn't come to that at all. If it happens again, the very first thing I'll do is go through the proper channels of the petition system, as I did last time, in the hope that CCP does what they're apparently committed to doing - making their online community a secure environment where real life harassment is not allowed to perpetuate.

I'm 100% down with that ideal. I just want to see them enforce it with consistency.

This particular situation though, I've already gotten more involved that I wanted to. I was really just gonna post that link to make people think, and then **** off but, I can't say I'm not annoyed with the lack of information and clarity here.

Close, but no cigar.

It's more like a man who wakes up one day to find a sign that says "minefield" on his front yard, where he's lived for a while without any problems.

People tell him, "oh, just figure it out for yourself".

Does that man have a right to be upset, or not?

A GM once told me that putting up lowball buy orders in Osmon or other Sisters of EVE areas is considered "taking advantage of new players".

No, you don't. Because typically, you're "dead". And if you're not "dead", you're left scratching your head as to why the eff you just got told that trying to buy LP items at a low price is against the rules.

They stood next to the sign looking out at the long grass. Right next to them was a sign reading 'Danger, Minefield'

Since we're still keeping with the analogy, yes, I have, once.

A GM once told me that putting up lowball buy orders in Osmon or other Sisters of EVE areas is considered "taking advantage of new players".




Since they refuse to talk about it, I don't know if I have or not. I run shitloads of scams, for example.




No, you don't. Because typically, you're "dead". And if you're not "dead", you're left scratching your head as to why the eff you just got told that trying to buy LP items at a low price is against the rules.

Exactly how many times have stepped on a land mine? Have you been doing the things that got the others blown up? If you have stepped on one you now know better. If not you either know by now how to avoid one, or you cannot learn how to avoid one.

I'm boned then, been doing it for years.
double boned

Exactly how many times have stepped on a land mine? Have you been doing the things that got the others blown up? If you have stepped on one you now know better. If not you either know by now how to avoid one, or you cannot learn how to avoid one.

Do you think it's a problem that The Mittani got away with a one month ban for inciting widespread RL harassment, or that botters get multiple warnings, while these people are getting zero warning permabans for crossing an invisible line?

Why, in the face of such subjective and ill-defined offences, are zero-warning permabans justified?

Sorry I tried to keep your analogy going, but it doesn't really apply because the whole world is a minefield, but the mines only exist when people get upset.

So wait till someone gets banned and don't copy what they did. Slight problem with this is CCP doesn't always make their bans and reasons for them public.

So wait till someone gets banned and don't copy what they did. Slight problem with this is CCP doesn't always make their bans and reasons for them public.

Most coms are appalling, nobody forced these people to stay logged into coms. They chose to do so, so they could try to get their stuff back. Most people would have logged out, cut their losses and learned from it.

Not sure why anyone would think this is about the bonus room ...
... or the bonus room only. Was there proof?


Did I miss something?


Curious.

If you know something, spit it out.

But knock off the dancing around the subject. There's too much smug bullshit on this forum already.

The scam is allowed. It would have been legit for them to tell the guy - sorry bro, it was all a scam, we took your isk, better luck next time. Pushing it to the next level and getting someone to do embarrassing things on coms in the false and vain hope of getting their own isk back is the problem. The good news is its easy to avoid the same pitfall. If you scam someone just be happy that you got their stuff, no need to rub it in or make them try and do humiliating stuff to get it back. It's just so easy to avoid entirely.

If you know something, spit it out.

But knock off the dancing around the subject. There's too much smug bullshit on this forum already.

I think she's trying to say that many of the bans had nothing to do with the bonus room... Players who had nothing to do with that were banned. One thing many had in common was CODE

Sorry. I meant something else than you think with my 'Uh oh'. I posted quickly to save the quote.

You see, it struck me that you were posting with the wrong personality. You answered for Kaarous with the same back story as Kaarous so I naturally assumed you were actually Kaarous. Also, comparing doxxing to what I originally quoted (being banned for blowing up a ship) is also what I'd expect Kaarous to say.

I think you can see how I was confused.

But I'll tell you now. I'm going to be paying special attention to the posting from you two

Mr Epeen

It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

so what you are saying is you-¦re not going to tell ppl how to behave, you-¦re just gonna ban them when they dont behave and not even let us know where the line is drawn?
That is a LARGE grey area my friends, one im not sure i want to be a part of.

Great!

Can I have your stuff?

Mr Epeen

I'm sorry, Dave. There is no work. EVE is real.

Sure. Let me know when you've been doxed and had your family threatened by players in the game, and CCP does nothing about it. I get what you're saying, I do, but the inconsistency is undeniable when you've experienced it first hand. I even put up the evidence of it for people to see and was dismissed as 'crying'. I assure you, I never cried a tear. The people responsible had a little visit from the police and, unfortunately, the rest is subject to a nondisclosure agreement, but I can tell you this much - the police gave me some information that will allow me to hold CCP fully accountable to the law should it ever happen again based on their own decisions in policy management so far.

So I'm not crying. I'm hoping I don't get doxed again but, there's also a small part of me that hopes I do. I love EVE, and I love CCP too. I love them so much that I just can't allow them to fall for the trap of double standards.

Sure. Let me know when you've been doxed and had your family threatened by players in the game, and CCP does nothing about it. I get what you're saying, I do, but the inconsistency is undeniable when you've experienced it first hand. I even put up the evidence of it for people to see and was dismissed as 'crying'. I assure you, I never cried a tear. The people responsible had a little visit from the police and, unfortunately, the rest is subject to a nondisclosure agreement, but I can tell you this much - the police gave me some information that will allow me to hold CCP fully accountable to the law should it ever happen again based on their own decisions in policy management so far.

So I'm not crying. I'm hoping I don't get doxed again but, there's also a small part of me that hopes I do. I love EVE, and I love CCP too. I love them so much that I just can't allow them to fall for the trap of double standards.

I wished I hadn't read this.

Not your quote, Mr. Epeen, but his.


The person who needs rules about how to behave ...
... lacks any form of empathy.

The ones who need rules for behaviour ...
... have no feeling for what is wrong behaviour ...
... and thus no feeling for other people.




Case closed.


o7

Understand that CSM have next to nothing to do with enforcement and punishment so any opinions I have about various bans are just that, MY opinions.

If Mittens pulled that today? Yeah, gone, no deposit, no return.

They have, recently, shortened the chain and strikes for botters. Again, I have little tolerance for such and so have no problem shortening that leash even more. But that is a different department in CCP, I think.

So I guess that means that the current bans are consistent with my model.

And the whole world IS a minefield. The Real World has more laws than any lawyer can keep track of. More mistakes that you can make than anybody can track. So you avoid the big obvious ones that have signs on them. Take your chances with the rest. Falcon has been fairly steady and consistent. Cross lines, BOOM. I notice you didn't mention any lottery sites so I won't either.

m

Understand that CSM have next to nothing to do with enforcement and punishment so any opinions I have about various bans are just that, MY opinions.

If Mittens pulled that today? Yeah, gone, no deposit, no return.

They have, recently, shortened the chain and strikes for botters. Again, I have little tolerance for such and so have no problem shortening that leash even more. But that is a different department in CCP, I think.

So I guess that means that the current bans are consistent with my model.

And the whole world IS a minefield. The Real World has more laws than any lawyer can keep track of. More mistakes that you can make than anybody can track. So you avoid the big obvious ones that have signs on them. Take your chances with the rest. Falcon has been fairly steady and consistent. Cross lines, BOOM. I notice you didn't mention any lottery sites so I won't either.

m

Hello everyone,

We would like to remind the EVE community of our stance regarding the usage of EVE Online and assets, characters and items from within the game environment as leverage for the purpose of real life harassment.

As outlined in our previous announcement, this type of behavior lies in clear breach of our End User License Agreement, and as such we have a zero tolerance approach when dealing with these cases.

Our stance regarding this type of behavior has not changed since the last announcement, and any individuals who are found to be engaging in such behavior will be met with disciplinary action against their game accounts in accordance with our Terms of Service.

- F

Hello everyone,

We would like to remind the EVE community of our stance regarding the usage of EVE Online and assets, characters and items from within the game environment as leverage for the purpose of real life harassment.

As outlined in our previous announcement, this type of behavior lies in clear breach of our End User License Agreement, and as such we have a zero tolerance approach when dealing with these cases.

Our stance regarding this type of behavior has not changed since the last announcement, and any individuals who are found to be engaging in such behavior will be met with disciplinary action against their game accounts in accordance with our Terms of Service.

- F

this is my point exactly, who knows how i fell about the answer you just wrote.. i could be more then offended by it and is that then reason to ban you? feelings are tricky stuff and it is the one thing you can never take away from someone... so where is the line drawn?
is it when you invite someone to sing on TS in order to drop point on the ship or when you say out in public that you wish someone to die... im just asking

Share: Cite / link:
ha-+rass (h-rs, hrs)
tr.v. ha-+rassed, ha-+rass-+ing, ha-+rass-+es
1. To irritate or torment persistently.
2. To wear out; exhaust.
3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.

"Harassment" isn't the issue. We harass each other in-game ALL THE TIME. A hell-camp is harassment. Suicide ganking is harassment. We've recently hell-camped some inhabitants of 5zxx-k until they are no-longer able to live in that system. (Thank you CCP, for the wonderful mordus legion ships, now in CFC control)

What we want to know is when it crosses the fourth wall into REAL LIFE harassment.

The people involved in the bonus room do not persistently target anyone over days or weeks. Nor do we follow anyone home or stalk anyone. Though I have no doubt that the tear collection is an intense experience, it is done in a single incident of scamming, and no one is forcing anyone to stay on our coms. People have left our coms on their own you know.

If you do not give clarification, there will be no end to the speculation, and that in itself can do more harm to your public image than any debate over rules and rule-skirting can.

If you don't know the answer, you've already crossed the line.

so what you are saying is you-¦re not going to tell ppl how to behave, you-¦re just gonna ban them when they dont behave and not even let us know where the line is drawn?
That is a LARGE grey area my friends, one im not sure i want to be a part of.

No, Mr. NPC alt.

You do not undestand the point at all,
because you do not feel Empathy.

If you did, you would not even come up with this.


There is no clear ruling,
because a clear ruling is not possible,
because of Empathy.

"Case by case" means that Empathy is being applied, mixed with common sense.


From you questioning the whole matter,
you show you lack both.


I can reverse this, in hope it makes you understand the matter better:


Why do I perfectly know what's way out of the line?


It's because I feel Empathy and I simply know what is and what's not.
I feel pain I cause to others ... and I have a huge pile of regrets I have to deal with.
Regret is something that keeps me from doing things I feel like could hurt others.


Damn, it's so mean ... because this is my favourite topic. -.-'

Since when is singing songs humiliating?

Sure.

It's like a strip bar. You know what you're running and you know that while most customers are fine there's going to be a lot of creepers and pervs in the mix. It's too much hassle to sort out at the door so you just let them all in. When the pervs start whipping it out or saying disgusting upsetting the girls, then the bouncer comes over and throws them out. Or maybe not, maybe the perv is actually a celebrity or something, then you tell the girls to go back and cool down and forget what happened.

The difference is the guy who owns the strip club knows (or at least, admits) what he's doing. If he really had a problem with the girls being harassed, well, why does he just shut the place down and open a tea shop or something.

what i feel and dont is something you know nothing about, you havn-¦t even asked me.
all i-¦m sayig is that ppl around the world fell different things about stuff and what brings joy to someone could be tears for someone else and whos to say whats right and wrong...
if there isnt a clear rule why permaban someone for something that perhaps brings joy for some ppl and a few days before just give the next person a pat in the back for saying he wish someone dead and just ban that guy for a few days...
and about your regret, get over it cause its done. learn from it and move forward :)

Again ... more proof that you do not feel Empathy ...
... and it clearly shows that you lack basic understanding of feelings and emotions at all.

And you obviously do not feel any kind of regret, too.

You're an alt of a hater,
who loves to pick on people and enjoys hurting them.

If you knew who you are talking with,
you would have never posted this.


Congratulations for outing yourself this way.


I suggest biomassing,
because you ruined this toon and outted yourself as a sociopath.


Have a nice day. (:

I know that RL harassment via someone's RL email containing carefully dug-up personal information about a real person in the game and including threats against named RL family members is allowed, because CCP did nothing about it when exactly that happened to me.