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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 38 post(s) |
Sierra Mackenzie
Black Widow Logistics
10
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Posted - 2014.10.09 22:19:00 -
[361] - Quote
Dear Greyscale,
I still hate you and think you should go work for Riot because even CONSIDERING the changes to JFs was completely boneheaded with how null industry and PI currently works, but I'm glad you listened and I will be resubbing for the time being.
Also, everyone who laughed in the last thread, well, laugh now. Guess you don't get my stuff. |
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
113
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:19:00 -
[362] - Quote
CCP Greyscale
If you want nullsec industry to really thrive, let outpost owners charge sales and indy/research taxes. Market hubs will spring up very rapidly :) |
Arun Tadaruwa
State War Academy Caldari State
92
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:22:00 -
[363] - Quote
Jump Freighters having higher overall mobility than Black Ops ships is a no, to me.
Likewise, the 10LY range is excessive. 9LY is sufficient for most regional gaps. 8 would be perfect, in my opinion.
You should not balance game-changing mechanics around one occupation's tediousness.
Mining has been tedious since 2003, so have been logistics. Alt posting because yes. |
Medalyn Isis
Rosewood Productions Stain Confederation
380
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:23:00 -
[364] - Quote
Sierra Mackenzie wrote:Dear Greyscale,
I still hate you and think you should go work for Riot because even CONSIDERING the changes to JFs was completely boneheaded with how null industry and PI currently works, but I'm glad you listened and I will be resubbing for the time being.
Also, everyone who laughed in the last thread, well, laugh now. Guess you don't get my stuff. Well he stated he doesn't like the way the game works, but has had to give in to the countless whine babies like yourself, despite the fact he would prefer to implement the changes originally proposed for the good of the game.
So thanks for holding back progress, but the nerf will come eventually when the whine bears have been prepared. |
Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us
104
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:25:00 -
[365] - Quote
Significantly better than the initial proposal. Question though.
Do the 90% hauler and 50% covert bonuses stack? Cause with that, a group using blops bridging could move materials faster(shorter cooldowns) than jfs. Which actually seems kinda nice and could have numerous strategic uses ( not limited to bringing in more ammo for covops gangs and hauling out loot) |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
877
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:25:00 -
[366] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:CCP Greyscale
If you want nullsec industry to really thrive, let outpost owners charge sales and indy/research taxes. Market hubs will spring up very rapidly :) Good news -- I've gone back in time and implemented this. You can do this right now. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Sierra Mackenzie
Black Widow Logistics
10
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:27:00 -
[367] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Sierra Mackenzie wrote:Dear Greyscale,
I still hate you and think you should go work for Riot because even CONSIDERING the changes to JFs was completely boneheaded with how null industry and PI currently works, but I'm glad you listened and I will be resubbing for the time being.
Also, everyone who laughed in the last thread, well, laugh now. Guess you don't get my stuff. Well he stated he doesn't like the way the game works, but has had to give in to the countless whine babies like yourself, despite the fact he would prefer to implement the changes originally proposed for the good of the game. So thanks for holding back progress, but the nerf will come eventually when the whine bears have been prepared. Yeah nah I'd rather not let him break the game for two years while we wait for a "fix". You can't just come into a sub-based game and expect to change a fundamental way about how the game works and have people not be upset. Welcome to the real world. |
Medalyn Isis
Rosewood Productions Stain Confederation
382
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:27:00 -
[368] - Quote
Linkxsc162534 wrote:Significantly better than the initial proposal. Question though.
Do the 90% hauler and 50% covert bonuses stack? Cause with that, a group using blops bridging could move materials faster(shorter cooldowns) than jfs. Which actually seems kinda nice and could have numerous strategic uses ( not limited to bringing in more ammo for covops gangs and hauling out loot) He already said that they would stack. |
Camios
Minmatar Bread Corporation
152
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:29:00 -
[369] - Quote
Querns wrote:Camios wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
- All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.
I want to emphasise that this can be exploited. Everyone takes an industrial ship, moves to the nearest-to-objective ship cache using the jump bridge network and titan bridges, then reships. I think this will be really easier than using swarms of jumpclones, especially with the 90% fatigue reduction. How exactly is this faster than taking gates in an interceptor?
Jump bridges usually cut away a lot of jumps, danger and time. |
Gregor Parud
686
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:30:00 -
[370] - Quote
So basically you caved in to the 0.0 carebears. |
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1582
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:30:00 -
[371] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:a significant percentage of their basic needs on-site without relying on JF chains AKA: rebalancing nullsec ore anomalies Good idea. It's been a while since I messed with nullsec anomalies. I think I remember how to do it... Greyscale, please do not fall for this. The static belts in Null balance out the anoms. And are no more dangerous to use than the anoms are currently. Null should have to use all tools at it's disposal, not simply the easiest ones. |
Medalyn Isis
Rosewood Productions Stain Confederation
382
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:31:00 -
[372] - Quote
Sierra Mackenzie wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Sierra Mackenzie wrote:Dear Greyscale,
I still hate you and think you should go work for Riot because even CONSIDERING the changes to JFs was completely boneheaded with how null industry and PI currently works, but I'm glad you listened and I will be resubbing for the time being.
Also, everyone who laughed in the last thread, well, laugh now. Guess you don't get my stuff. Well he stated he doesn't like the way the game works, but has had to give in to the countless whine babies like yourself, despite the fact he would prefer to implement the changes originally proposed for the good of the game. So thanks for holding back progress, but the nerf will come eventually when the whine bears have been prepared. Yeah nah I'd rather not let him break the game for two years while we wait for a "fix". You can't just come into a sub-based game and expect to change a fundamental way about how the game works and have people not be upset. Welcome to the real world. This isn't the real world, it is a game. This is the problem, people treat the game as a second job. If you weren't so fussy about keeping your perfect logistics network, and just let the guy make changes to the game for the benefit and enjoyment of all, then null sec wouldn't have become so stale as it is right now in the first place. |
Alp Khan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
246
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:31:00 -
[373] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:Sure, because Jump Freighters are what holds empires together. If the troops can't hold the space or the moons because of the "force projection" nerfs then it wont matter if a jump freighter can more easily pick up anything ie trade goods, ships/mods, moongoo, etc. Its both. Unnerffing JFs just means the status quo for logistics is preserved and nullsec industry will never develop. Why bother building in nullsec when you can JF from Jita in safety?
Existence of Jump Freighters isn't the reason why null industry is not developing. It's not developing, because a) Highsec production is still easier to manage and handle than producing the same goods in null. If there is a safer alternative for production economy, the production economy will settle on the safer alternative as dangers and risks add to your costs and decrease your ability to compete in the free market b) Resources and minerals in nullsec are lacking, requiring massive amounts of certain minerals to be imported from empire
Additionally, the stability of entire T2 module and ship market depends on manageable lines of logistics between null and empire, as the materials necessary for T2 is overwhelmingly provided by null. |
Sierra Mackenzie
Black Widow Logistics
10
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:35:00 -
[374] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Sierra Mackenzie wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Sierra Mackenzie wrote:Dear Greyscale,
I still hate you and think you should go work for Riot because even CONSIDERING the changes to JFs was completely boneheaded with how null industry and PI currently works, but I'm glad you listened and I will be resubbing for the time being.
Also, everyone who laughed in the last thread, well, laugh now. Guess you don't get my stuff. Well he stated he doesn't like the way the game works, but has had to give in to the countless whine babies like yourself, despite the fact he would prefer to implement the changes originally proposed for the good of the game. So thanks for holding back progress, but the nerf will come eventually when the whine bears have been prepared. Yeah nah I'd rather not let him break the game for two years while we wait for a "fix". You can't just come into a sub-based game and expect to change a fundamental way about how the game works and have people not be upset. Welcome to the real world. This isn't the real world, it is a game. This is the problem, people treat the game as a second job. If you weren't so fussy about keeping your perfect logistics network, and just let the guy make changes to the game for the benefit and enjoyment of all, then null sec wouldn't have become so stale as it is right now in the first place. This is the real world when people pay real money every month. CCP lives and dies off of sub numbers.
Cutting null logistics off at the knees would only make people move closer to empire and effectively ruin low sec and FW. You're kidding yourself if you think people would stay 10 capital jumps away from the borders. |
Cr Turist
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
26
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:35:00 -
[375] - Quote
I have to comment on some of the whinning in this thread. ok so a middle ground was reached YAY! but now all the people that were ooo so happy drinking up tears of capital pilots and logi guys are crying and i think that fantastic.
i keep hearing people bitching about ooo power projection this ooo they ruin our fights with there legions of assholes and stupid about of capital. why has nobody talked about how IS boxer is a major issue or about how bombers are way to overpowered maybe these are the pilots that love ishtars? you know the ishtar its the crusier hull with t2 resists that does battle ship dps.
fact is you must find a middle ground. and i think CCP understands that and is trying to please as much of the player base as it can.
for all the people crying about ooo u didnt stick to your guns bla bla \____/ <----- tears here please |
Medalyn Isis
Rosewood Productions Stain Confederation
384
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:37:00 -
[376] - Quote
Alp Khan wrote:Lallante wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:Sure, because Jump Freighters are what holds empires together. If the troops can't hold the space or the moons because of the "force projection" nerfs then it wont matter if a jump freighter can more easily pick up anything ie trade goods, ships/mods, moongoo, etc. Its both. Unnerffing JFs just means the status quo for logistics is preserved and nullsec industry will never develop. Why bother building in nullsec when you can JF from Jita in safety? Existence of Jump Freighters isn't the reason why null industry is not developing. So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?
Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda? |
Davionia Vanshel
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:37:00 -
[377] - Quote
Sierra Mackenzie wrote:Dear Greyscale,
I still hate you and think you should go work for Riot because even CONSIDERING the changes to JFs was completely boneheaded with how null industry and PI currently works, but I'm glad you listened and I will be resubbing for the time being.
Also, everyone who laughed in the last thread, well, laugh now. Guess you don't get my stuff.
I did have one question for CCP Greyscale: Did you guys draw lots to see who would announce the changes and if so did you win or lose? |
Dwissi
Miners Delight
24
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:39:00 -
[378] - Quote
Alp Khan wrote:Lallante wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:Sure, because Jump Freighters are what holds empires together. If the troops can't hold the space or the moons because of the "force projection" nerfs then it wont matter if a jump freighter can more easily pick up anything ie trade goods, ships/mods, moongoo, etc. Its both. Unnerffing JFs just means the status quo for logistics is preserved and nullsec industry will never develop. Why bother building in nullsec when you can JF from Jita in safety? Existence of Jump Freighters isn't the reason why null industry is not developing. It's not developing, because a) Highsec production is still easier to manage and handle than producing the same goods in null. If there is a safer alternative for production economy, the production economy will settle on the safer alternative as dangers and risks add to your costs and decrease your ability to compete in the free market b) Resources and minerals in nullsec are lacking, requiring massive amounts of certain minerals to be imported from empire Additionally, the stability of entire T2 module and ship market depends on manageable lines of logistics between null and empire, as the materials necessary for T2 is overwhelmingly provided by null.
Wow - this was kind of very outch to read. Its not at all just about 'safety' - lets put the most important point out here: There is stuff that we are not supposed to build in certain areas - capitals. There is material that can only be found by mining moons - thus low and null sec. With the complete lockdown of every single valuable moon resource its complete bullshit to talk about something like a free market. Do i have to mention Hulkageddon to raise prices for technetium? So we are not talking about null not being able to participate in a free market but about trying to stop you to eliminate also the last bastion that allows others to participate in.
So i think its pretty natural that if everyone is supposed to have a hard time to take anything in null it should be the other way around as well - thus making logistics a bit harder was a move that many felt was leveling the field and would be seen as incentive to stick to your 'natural' area. Should i do anything when all 3 things on my ship are fully red?
My thanks to all Eve players for the continued forums drama - i had no idea how much i missed it while i was away :) |
CrookedSpike
PH0ENIX COMPANY Northern Associates.
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:40:00 -
[379] - Quote
Querns wrote:Hell, replace the drone damage bonus on the hull with 20% additional jump range per level.
THIS THIS THIS |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
390
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:40:00 -
[380] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?
Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?
Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply? |
|
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
390
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:45:00 -
[381] - Quote
xttz wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?
Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?
Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply?
Although I suppose the total absence of regional ice products, moon minerals and NPC-seeded infrastructure hub upgrades is just propaganda, and your next post will prove that these things are actually readily available. |
Medalyn Isis
Rosewood Productions Stain Confederation
392
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:45:00 -
[382] - Quote
xttz wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?
Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?
Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply? Hence why moons would have been inevitably been rebalanced afterwards as was mentioned in the original thread. Now we are going to have to wait though. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
878
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:45:00 -
[383] - Quote
Camios wrote:Querns wrote:Camios wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
- All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.
I want to emphasise that this can be exploited. Everyone takes an industrial ship, moves to the nearest-to-objective ship cache using the jump bridge network and titan bridges, then reships. I think this will be really easier than using swarms of jumpclones, especially with the 90% fatigue reduction. How exactly is this faster than taking gates in an interceptor? Jump bridges usually cut away a lot of jumps, danger and time. Interceptors are essentially invincible going gate to gate, outside of one specific scenario (that can easily be scouted.) No amount of jump bridges increase safety of travel more than an interceptor does. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Medalyn Isis
Rosewood Productions Stain Confederation
392
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:47:00 -
[384] - Quote
xttz wrote:xttz wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?
Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?
Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply? Although I suppose the total absence of regional ice products, moon minerals and NPC-seeded infrastructure hub upgrades is just propaganda, and your next post will prove that these things are actually readily available. Moon minerals are the only issue. The rest can either be adapted too, or are in low enough quantity that mass hauling won't be required. If you only have Amarr ice, then just use amarr starbases. Would actually add a nice flavour to different regions of the game. |
Odelll
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:48:00 -
[385] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Odelll wrote:I was really looking forward to a new dawn in EvE, yet already CCP is folding.
The changes as they were meant the region of space directly effects what your able to build / field, finally we had a glimpse of space having meaning and may I even dream, an eve world without jita being the continuous feedback loop. As is, this concession will make most of these changes business as usual for most of Null.
TLDR; Stop listening to logistics tycoons, stay the coarse, remove empire trading from the nullsec equation all together and let us truely live in space!
I'm disappointed that you increased the JF range to 10AU even more disappointed your giving Blops 8AU range + 50% reduction (T3+refit = new meta)
Please go back to shaking up the game, no more easy mode concessions! Heh heh heh..... Ah, amazing response. "remove empire trading"
Why does 0.0 HAVE to loop 99% of trade via 1 hi-sec hub? why do they have to enter hi-sec at all? you carve out an empire of your very own but still need to use the infrastructure of the very system your supposed to be the opposition of.
While it remains easier, cheaper and safer to travel/produce in hi-sec. Null will never be able to spread its wings. |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
390
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:48:00 -
[386] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:xttz wrote:xttz wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?
Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?
Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply? Although I suppose the total absence of regional ice products, moon minerals and NPC-seeded infrastructure hub upgrades is just propaganda, and your next post will prove that these things are actually readily available. Moon minerals are the only issue. The rest can either be adapted too, or are in low enough quantity that mass hauling won't be required. If you only have Amarr ice, then just use amarr starbases. Would actually add a nice flavour to different regions of the game.
Ahahaha thank you for this I wasn't quite sure if you were trolling or not but now I'm sure. |
JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
340
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:50:00 -
[387] - Quote
Querns wrote:Camios wrote:Querns wrote:Camios wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
- All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.
I want to emphasise that this can be exploited. Everyone takes an industrial ship, moves to the nearest-to-objective ship cache using the jump bridge network and titan bridges, then reships. I think this will be really easier than using swarms of jumpclones, especially with the 90% fatigue reduction. How exactly is this faster than taking gates in an interceptor? Jump bridges usually cut away a lot of jumps, danger and time. Interceptors are essentially invincible going gate to gate, outside of one specific scenario (that can easily be scouted.) No amount of jump bridges increase safety of travel more than an interceptor does.
guys my afktar :( |
Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
529
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:50:00 -
[388] - Quote
I still wonder if Greyscale got forced to make this JF change by someone higher up in CCP. It really doesnt fit with the rest of his vision at all and does substantially reduce the impact of the changes taken as a whole. In some of his replies he sounds pretty remorseful at having to compromise on this. |
Saint Hecate
Viziam Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:51:00 -
[389] - Quote
I have to say that im pretty sad about the jump freighter changes. I was really hoping the difficulty of importing would increase the demand of self supplied market hubs. I ran a jump freighter service for my last corp for about a year. It really made me understand the trouble easy importing can cause on someone who wants to build and having a meaningful impact on the market.
I think with the 5LY range it would of made importing hard enough that industrial corps/alliances would be welcome in nullsec again. Its really not very fun being out in the depths of nullsec and still having to compete with everyone in highsec for market share. The presence of Jita pretty much locked the price of everything down where it made it more feasible to import large quantities of items and sell them on the market instead of building the darn things! xD.
The capital jump changes have opened the market in a nice way for those that like building them. Its much harder and time consuming to move one from lowsec so i definitely appreciate that boost to local capital markets!
Im a small time builder, run a 5 man mining fleet so im not some huge monopoly alliance fueling machine like some people haha but I think even the little guys opinion can be helpful!
Im hoping eventually once all the phases of the changes fall into place we can enjoy locally grown economies out in nullsec that arent as heavily affected by highsec as they are now. It makes me sad that pretty much all of your value in nullsec is determined by how long and how many ships you can field on the battlefield as an individual pilot. Would love to see Building industrialist be the back bone of alliances again :).
Thanks for your time Greyscale and hope youll read my post! :). |
Alp Khan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
247
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 22:52:00 -
[390] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:a) it's not immediately obvious that this will be particularly viable in practice, and b) if it is, we'll just nerf it. And you call it a sandbox?
I'm getting the uneasy feeling that Greyscale is not as proficient as I would have hoped when it comes to macro systems design, which would maintaining and up keeping a sandbox would necessitate. Rather, he seems to be only keen on looking at the issues in micro scale. He is trying to make a change a series of changes at micro level to tackle certain issues, which is not a good method of sandbox design. This is why, so far, Greyscale hasn't managed to focus on the source of the issues we all have been complaining about. Since he is seemingly unwilling to scrutinize the macro design, he has, so far, as the head of the null working group, only have been able to visit symptoms that he can perceive at a micro level.
The right way to do it would be to make adjustments at macro level and leave the rest to the players, in the true sandbox sense. Let's not forget that EVE is able to stand on a foundation of a relatively stable amount of subscriptions currently solely because it is a sandbox MMO, not a theme park. If you take a moment and notice how Greyscale is feeling comfortable calling shots and making decisions on how players should play EVE, I'm sure you'll be as worried as I am right now.
In contrast, Unifex always struck me as a thinking man. He was extremely proficient at visiting game design at a macro level. His absence is clearly being felt here.
We don't need somebody dictating a certain vision of how life should be in particular regions of New Eden. We don't need somebody making calls on which regions should be able to trade between themselves. Sadly, Greyscale comes off to me as exactly that man.
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