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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11688
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let's talk Stealth Bombers! As we mentioned in the Travel Changes Dev Blog, we are doing rebalance passes on Bombers and Hictors in Phoebe.
Our plan for bombers in Phoebe has several aspects, all aimed at keeping bombers effective while strengthening their counters and allowing skilled fleets to protect themselves.:
- A stat rebalance on the bombers themselves. Short version is significantly more HP, weaker agility, larger sig radius, more cargo (so that they can all carry 3 bombs), smidge more CPU, lower warp speed.
- Cloaked ships will once again decloak each other if they come within 2km.
- Reduction in HP (with increase in resists) for the damage bombs, so that they can be destroyed by (named or higher) medium smartbombs.
- 17% reduction in bomb speed, with associated flight time increase. This means that you'll have 12 seconds to react to bombs instead of 10. Range stays the same.
- Doubling the effect of the Bomb Deployment skill, to 10% per level. This will allow people to bomb more often.
- A new anti-capital void bomb with a tiny range and a large explosion radius. You need to land it right on your target but if you hit a cap ship it will eat a ton of cap.
- New 10km radius interdiction probes. Intended to give fleets more options for bubbling themselves and pulling in opponents (including bombers) at undesired ranges.
Stats:
Purifier: Fittings: 45 PWG, 305(+7) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+138) / 600(+213) / 450(+63) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 355(+42.5) / 266.25(+16.25) / 1.33(+0.0833) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 300(+38) / 4.4(+0.053) / 1,495,000(+99000) / 9.12s(+0.71) Warp Speed: 4.5(-1) Sensor strength: 19(+2) Signature radius: 50(+13) Cargo Capacity: 260
Manticore: Fittings: 38 PWG, 330(+2) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 625(+309) / 350(+62) / 400(+62) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 315(+46.25) / 236.25(+21.25) / 1.33(+0.0833) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 280(+24) / 4.5(+0.622) / 1,470,000(+4000) / 9.17s(+1.29) Warp Speed: 4.5(-1) Sensor strength: 21(+1) Signature radius: 51(+12) Cargo Capacity: 265(+80)
Nemesis: Fittings: 38 PWG, 315(+8) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+125) / 475(+159) / 650(+228) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 355(+61.25) / 266.25(+31.25) / 1.33(+0.0833) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 275(+11) / 4.6(+0.057) / 1,410,000(-11000) / 8.99s(+0.04) Warp Speed: 4.5(-1) Sensor strength: 20(+2) Signature radius: 52(+15) Cargo Capacity: 270(+55)
Hound: Fittings: 40 PWG, 310(+7) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 550(+304) / 425(+87) / 350(+69) Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 285(+35) / 213.75(+13.75) / 1.33(+0.0833) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310(+26) / 4.4(+0.326) / 1,455,000(+85000) / 8.88s(+1.14) Warp Speed: 4.5(-1) Sensor strength: 18(+1) Signature radius: 48(+14) Cargo Capacity: 255(+60)
Cloaked Ships Decloaking Each Other: The change that allowed cloaked ships to pass through each other without decloaking was made back in 2012 to make bombing easier. With the last few years of evidence to look at, it becomes clear that organizing bombing runs has become a bit too easy. This change will add some more complexity to organizing multiple cloaked ships, as well as returning the old gameplay of attempting to decloak other players with your own cloaked ship. We know that some players are going to be unhappy with the way this makes their gameplay more challenging, but bombing was very viable before the cloaking change and it will continue to be very viable after.
Bomb HP Reduction: We're decreasing bomb HP to 96 armor and 20 hull, and increasing the racial specific resistance on the bombs to 99.8%. This keeps the maximum number of bombs in a wave the same (except when damage bombs are mixed with void or lockbreaker bombs, but that was already a bad idea), but makes it easier to destroy bombs with smartbombs. Notably this puts the total bomb HP to a level where named or T2 medium smartbombs can destroy them, providing more options for cruiser and BC fleets to defend themselves.
Bomb Speed and Flight Time: Pretty simple, this reduces the velocity of damage bombs from 3000m/s to 2500m/s, and increases the flight time to 12s. They'll still travel 30km, but they'll take 12s instead of 10s to do it. This provides more time for a fleet to react to a bombing, and puts the correct emphasis on effective strategic use of bombs combined with other ships rather than bombers acting alone.
Doubling the strength of the Bomb Deployment Skill: This allows you to get your reactivation delay on T2 bomb launchers down as low as 67.5s, adding more value to the Bomb Deployment skill and reducing downtime a bit.
New Anti-Capital Void Bomb: This is the first toe dipped in the water for smaller AoE (and therefore more aiming required) dumb weapons, which we think have a lot of potential in the future. It's a void bomb with the following stats:
Armor HP: 600 Explosion Radius: 4000 Energy Neut Amount: 15,000 Flight Time: 15s Velocity: 2000m/s AoE Range: One Meter
This thing is most useful against very large ships, and has to detonate right on top of a target to have any effect. We don't expect it to take the world by storm but it should be a very good option for harassing capitals, especially with small numbers of bombers.
New 10km Dictor Bubbles: This is a new ammo choice for dictors that act just like the normal aoe bubbles except with a smaller range and +50% bubble lifetime. These are intended to be another option that fleets can use to pull in hostiles (especially bombers) at desired ranges and should be quite useful for bubbling your own fleet. We will investigate the option of adding an equivalent Hictor version at a later date, but the system that WDFGs use for their scripting doesn't easily lend itself to this sort of use so no promises.
Overall we expect these changes to make operating bomber fleets a bit tougher, and provide a few new tools that fleets can use to protect themselves. However bombers remain a crucial part ... Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
182
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Saw CPU buff, left happy. Travelling at the speed of love. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1322
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Interesting changes, definitely a nerf for multiboxers (at last!) even if they are not the only ones penalized. The anti-capital bomb seem a bit too weak in my opinion though, and I'm not a fan of the reduced warp speed, but the rest sounds nice, challenging and fair for everyone.
GOOD JOB. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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John Selth
Constantine. Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
10
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Back to the theorycrafting table for Bombers Bar then... there goes my weekend |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
478
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
hmmm.... |
Chiimera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
114
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Great work killing bombing runs completely.
Cloaked ships decloaking other cloaked ships would be fine IF fleet members could actually tell where each other are. |
Shinah Myst
V0LTA Triumvirate.
30
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:New 10km Dictor Bubbles: This is a new ammo choice for dictors that act just like the normal aoe bubbles except with a smaller range and +50% bubble lifetime. These are intended to be another option that fleets can use to pull in hostiles (especially bombers) at desired ranges and should be quite useful for bubbling your own fleet. We will investigate the option of adding an equivalent Hictor version at a later date, but the system that WDFGs use for their scripting doesn't easily lend itself to this sort of use so no promises. How about giving back more ISLs to interdictors? Or at least reducing reload times? |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
747
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
are you even going to mention isboxer in your thread about isboxing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
138
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Where's the ISBoxer ban announcement Fozzie |
Ammzi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
1844
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thanks for not dealing with the real issue here which is ISBox bombing, but making real player coordinated bomber fleets more of a pain to coordinate.
This only emphasizes the need for automated, single player run bombing fleets. |
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Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
747
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
whatever about you thinking bombers need a nerf, i'm fine either way with that
but why aren't you addressing the fact that an isboxed bomber is far more effective than the equivalent players. in fact you are furthering the gap with the cloaking change
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Zoneras
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
11
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
I might've been ok with the decloak change if ISboxers couldn't be set to automatically warp at safe ranges to one another. Humans make mistakes, machines have an unfair advantage. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
869
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
they can still be aligned or in warp at all times and therefore immune to pvp, right? because that's bad. |
Doyle Aldurad
Imperial Shipwrights
0
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
I am pretty good with all of these changes but one. These are still Frigates. Making them slower in warp than any generic T-1 frigate seems inappropriate and unbalancing. Suddenly even keeping up with my allies in a roam is a lot more difficult. Making them "slower" I do understand, given you're desire to weaken them overall, but dropping their warp speed that of a destroyer seems completely wrong. You've already made them both notably easier to discover and destroy, plus made their signature weapon easier to evade.
Please remove that aspect of the 'balancing' |
Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
i expect this new anti-capital bomb is ment to be counter for supers and titans so can we get something like immunity or at least effect reduction for triaged carriers and sieged dreads? |
Stephan Schneider
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
1
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
well rip bombing then |
ulililillia
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
83
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
collateral damage from iskboxer literally ruining legit bombing |
Canenald
Rubella Solaris Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
This is really a big nerf not a rebalance. The boosts are totally made meaningless by nerfs. More bombs in cargo hold and faster reload mean nothing if you can't bomb efficiently.
Bombers have a nice role of a totally separate force that can't decide the main battle but still has a large impact on it, much like the real world aircrafts of the previous century and cavalry in the earlier history. Bomber superiority is a valuable advantage, much like real world air or cavalry superiority. As a result, players have developed anti-bombing roles for ships, such as seboed interceptors and instacanes, much like the anti-aircraft guns and pikemen of the real world.
As it is, the virtual skymarshals of EVE have an interesting strategic choice of putting warm bodies into either main doctrine ships or bombers. Nerfing the bombers themselves so much while giving mainline ships additional means of defending themselves will make this choice a no-brainer. It's like tanks that can shoot down aircrafts and regular medieval infantry that can stop charging horsemen with their shields.
Oh, and there's Ishtars. We all know they are OP. Their greatest disadvantage is that they work better with shield tank, which works worse with bombs. Efficient armor tank is the most compelling reason to choose another HAC. Well, not after you nerf bombs. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
2100
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
I like the new bomb! ....and the only warning was the last line of the patch notes, which said. "Oh yeah, we also shuffled Moon Goo around!" Show your support, move Moon Goo with Power Projection changes!-á |
Canenald
Rubella Solaris Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Doyle Aldurad wrote:I am pretty good with all of these changes but one. These are still Frigates. Making them slower in warp than any generic T-1 frigate seems inappropriate and unbalancing. Suddenly even keeping up with my allies in a roam is a lot more difficult. Making them "slower" I do understand, given you're desire to weaken them overall, but dropping their warp speed that of a destroyer seems completely wrong. You've already made them both notably easier to discover and destroy, plus made their signature weapon easier to evade.
Please remove that aspect of the 'balancing'
Bombers already align slower than some light cruisers. A big issue with bombing bombers is getting out aligned after you've bombed. With additional nerf it will be ridiculous. What use is the faster bomb launcher reload and large cargo hold if you won't live to launch all 5 bombs?
Well, at least I'll be able to get more loot on hotdrops :D inb4 a bomb bay on bombers. |
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Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
751
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
god damn i can do a better job in 10 seconds watch
- bombs now require an activation code before being armed, random 4 digit alphanumeric number that must be entered after launch but before detonation
- bombs now have an explosion velocity akin to missiles, their damage against moving targets will be significantly reduced and signature radius is less of a factor
- combat probing time doubled
- interceptors are no longer interdiction nullified
(i threw in that last one for free) do u even play this game anymore fozzie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Current Habit
Get LP or Die Trying
22
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
As if Goku and siege fleets weren't strong enough already (especially with the EHP reduction of structures in Phoebe). |
Sokor Loro
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
69
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Yep +1
I eagerly await the tears on the cloaking nerf. People ran sucessful, coordinated bomb groups before that change and they will do the same after. It will be more difficult to set up, stay set up and execute, but tbh all of those things are so trivial now that it's almost ridiculous to complain about it being more difficult.
What concerns me is that these nerfs don't address the isboxer issue, and in fact probably makes it a lot stronger. While I don't think isboxer itself is cheating/unfair/whatever, in the context of bombers it provides a huge advantage. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
869
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
and what's with the stat differences? nemesis is supposed to armour tank on 38 grid, and it aligns slower than hound? |
Gheyna
Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion
114
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Good thing giving bombers more cargo, can fit more missile for my siege fleet now. Even better with the reduction of ehp from sov structures. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
996
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Doyle Aldurad wrote:I am pretty good with all of these changes but one. These are still Frigates. Making them slower in warp than any generic T-1 frigate seems inappropriate and unbalancing. Suddenly even keeping up with my allies in a roam is a lot more difficult. Making them "slower" I do understand, given you're desire to weaken them overall, but dropping their warp speed that of a destroyer seems completely wrong. You've already made them both notably easier to discover and destroy, plus made their signature weapon easier to evade.
Please remove that aspect of the 'balancing' I would say a frigate carrying torpedo launchers and massive bomb bays might not be as agile as a normal frigate. Lieutenant Turelus Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
I post on my main... shocking I know! |
Capqu
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
758
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:(except when damage bombs are mixed with void or lockbreaker bombs, but that was already a bad idea)
this made me lol out loud in irl
you are hilariously uneducated when it comes to bombing
those bombs were designed to be used together, thats why voids launched at the same time as damage bombs detonate first and aren't destroyed by the damage bombs, and deal less damage to a damage bomb than a same type damage bomb would. in fact you could do slightly larger waves of bombs by launching voids -> damage and having the voids cap out targets before the damage arrived https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpMiT5qpyI |
Porucznik Borewicz
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
18
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Chiimera wrote:Great work killing bombing runs completely.
Cloaked ships decloaking other cloaked ships would be fine IF fleet members could actually tell where each other are. +1 to this all the way! Let me see cloaked gang members in space please. |
El Space Mariachi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
154
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
The other changes are pretty neat, agility nerf is good and standardisation of fitting and cargo is nice (although Nemesis and Manticore will always be garbage at bombing) although the HP increase is a little puzzling as I don't really think they needed any more. They're all negligible compared to the huge change that is the cloak mechanic change though. Either way, I don't see myself or any other members of my alliance other than our ISboxing CHEATERS bombing anything for the forseeable future. I'm sure baltec fleets the world over are rejoicing.
Can't say I'm too bothered overall, bombers were clearly far overstepping their role as a force multiplier and becoming an I-win button in a lot of situations. I feel that fiddling with decloak mechanics is the wrong way to go about changes though and would just make them useless. I would advocate instead for a reworking of signature radius mechanics so that bombs don't spell instant death for anything shield tanked or below a cruiser, but are still competitive.
I like the anti-capital void bomb though, although it's yet another nail in the coffin for solo roaming in an active tanked battleship as if getting swarmed by 600 frigates wasn't enough already. Now one bomb will completely kill a Marauder's capacitor and leave it dead in the water.
Altrue wrote:Interesting changes, definitely a nerf for multiboxers (at last!) even if they are not the only ones penalized. The anti-capital bomb seem a bit too weak in my opinion though, and I'm not a fan of the reduced warp speed, but the rest sounds nice, challenging and fair for everyone. GOOD JOB.
You can configure ISboxed bomber squads to not decloak each other (with a little difficulty) under the new changes. You cannot do the same for 8 people working together in any reasonable amount of time as they now cannot take squad warps, have no way of telling where they are relative to other cloaked fleet members other than hoping and praying that they're ALL smart enough to follow orders, didn't warp through each other and got the ranges right. It's a lot of factors to go wrong when one person accidentally doesn't warp at the right range. The cloak change is a nerf to both ways of bombing, but it hurts non-ISboxers a lot more and will make bombing incredibly difficult in practical terms without third party software. gay gamers for jesus |
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
130
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Posted - 2014.10.16 11:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nice job ruining bombers! Good thing I don't use them!
Also good job nerfing every single cloaking ship in the game, I'm sure blops gangs are going to love this.
In the history of bad ideas, this is right up there with "hey ya'll, watch this!"
To the ISboxer whiners already trolling this thread, hahahahahahahahaha! Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll. |
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