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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Theon Severasse
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
86
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Posted - 2014.11.30 16:04:40 -
[421] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Lost Hamster wrote:From devblog: CCP Optimal wrote:As a matter of fact, it has been scientifically proven that stripping color away from such icons reduces search time, as it allows your brain to focus purely on form. ItGÇÖs a GÇ£try it to believe itGÇ¥ kind of thing. I was skeptical at first too.
I'm challenging you to prove that. Could not find any scientific article to prove that. (Which would be relevant to icons) I would like to suggest a change in the station window, it would free up some space on the top of it. Basically move the arrows for undock and CQ to the top, and keep the station owner icon in the middle. And NOO, don't remove the station owner icon. Station screenGenerally I highly suggest to remove the new UI from the December 9 release. Yeah I would like to see something to support "minimal and plain is best" - After trying it on SISI, I'm still skeptical
Trying to google it just comes to this thread.
I did however find a load of articles and forum posts where other companies did something similar with their programs icons, and received similar negative feedback asking for the colour to be returned.
http://techiesimon.com/2013/06/23/visual-studio-monochrome-part-2/
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1168143&sid=82dc167dee7832e105bdd74b558771f8
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=112141
Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise? |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
587
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Posted - 2014.11.30 16:25:46 -
[422] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote: Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise?
After spending 3 hours going through google and contacting one of my old professors (exactly his field) I have not been able to find a respectable study to back up the notion of "Removing all colour from context which only includes different and detailed shapes improves the time it takes for humans to find the correct shape". There were about 7 studies with a total of 9 citations between them saying this but they're not either current (1970's says "hi") or were never cited and cannot be considered valid. Three of these studies were limited to 8 shapes or less.
I have to join you on this request on CCP to quote the study. After all, quoting the content of a study and not quoting the study itself is bad form and will get you laughed at. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7055
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Posted - 2014.11.30 17:44:54 -
[423] - Quote
They apparently consulted it with the same professor who advised them with the game physics.
Recon makes them stronger
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Adrian Dixon
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction Immediate Destruction
154
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:34:19 -
[424] - Quote
Personally I really like the new icons, they are easy to interpret. I am finding it really hard going back to TQ now that I have experienced the latest Singularity version. The only thing that stands out for me is there should needs more options for the window opacity/blur on off.
The smaller station services icons are great. |
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2014.12.01 05:01:53 -
[425] - Quote
Looks like the devs are actually listening somewhat.
- The blink for new conversation in coms windows has been toned down. thumbs up !
- the tabs in the black theme now more subdued which is great. however the selected tab word (font) is still overly bright especially for people who have high contrast monitors. Its actually easier to see something when the font is not highlighted (had glow added)
Still need
- tranparency slider to effect everything including tabs. - RGB sliders back - option to disable the window blur via a toggle per window
I think the font on the com windows are a little unclear on 90% scale.
"... ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new... thats where is eve placed... not in cave..."-á | zoonr-Korsairs |-á QFT !
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Quintessen
Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos
439
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:58:43 -
[426] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Theon Severasse wrote: Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise?
After spending 3 hours going through google and contacting one of my old professors (exactly his field) I have not been able to find a respectable study to back up the notion of "Removing all colour from context which only includes different and detailed shapes improves the time it takes for humans to find the correct shape". There were about 7 studies with a total of 9 citations between them saying this but they're not either current (1970's says "hi") or were never cited and cannot be considered valid. Three of these studies were limited to 8 shapes or less. I have to join you on this request on CCP to quote the study. After all, quoting the content of a study and not quoting the study itself is bad form and will get you laughed at.
A lot of the core HCI work that's been done was originally done in the '70s. This is one field where the age of the work doesn't necessarily invalidate it. Actually that's true in general. Remember that humans haven't changed much so a human's ability to distinguish between shapes and how color influences that would not have changed since the '70s. Our eyes and brains haven't changed since then, why should the result have?
New HCI material that covers interactions that weren't possible in the '70s would be valid and there wasn't a lot on virtual reality then. Also touch screens weren't as refined, but the core concept is there. Ubiquity of touch screens gives us a lot more data than we used to have so some conclusions have changed, but all the core work has been done.
The Mac usability guidelines that Apple still uses today are almost unchanged from when Jeff Raskin originally wrote them back in the '70's and '80s.
And all that said, iconography predates all of that. So, no, your older studies are still valid. |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
593
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Posted - 2014.12.01 17:26:50 -
[427] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:Theon Severasse wrote: Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise?
After spending 3 hours going through google and contacting one of my old professors (exactly his field) I have not been able to find a respectable study to back up the notion of "Removing all colour from context which only includes different and detailed shapes improves the time it takes for humans to find the correct shape". There were about 7 studies with a total of 9 citations between them saying this but they're not either current (1970's says "hi") or were never cited and cannot be considered valid. Three of these studies were limited to 8 shapes or less. I have to join you on this request on CCP to quote the study. After all, quoting the content of a study and not quoting the study itself is bad form and will get you laughed at. A lot of the core HCI work that's been done was originally done in the '70s. This is one field where the age of the work doesn't necessarily invalidate it. Actually that's true in general. Remember that humans haven't changed much so a human's ability to distinguish between shapes and how color influences that would not have changed since the '70s. Our eyes and brains haven't changed since then, why should the result have? New HCI material that covers interactions that weren't possible in the '70s would be valid and there wasn't a lot on virtual reality then. Also touch screens weren't as refined, but the core concept is there. Ubiquity of touch screens gives us a lot more data than we used to have so some conclusions have changed, but all the core work has been done. The Mac usability guidelines that Apple still uses today are almost unchanged from when Jeff Raskin originally wrote them back in the '70's and '80s. And all that said, iconography predates all of that. So, no, your older studies are still valid.
I tried to make a point over how studies which have citations in the tens or hundreds over this subject confirming CCP's statement is hard to find, I guess I went over board with the prodding.
You don't happen to have one at hand? |
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
60
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Posted - 2014.12.01 19:22:32 -
[428] - Quote
Sooo, CCP Arrow said there would be Dev responses to feedback this weekend....
Unless it was in some unrelated thread in the '3rd party developer' subforum like the invention changes "response"....
CCP's 'embeded QA', start doing your flippin job. I can understand you are busy, but there is simply no good reason to NOT RESPOND for this long (almost 4 weeks) to the very feedback thread you created whilst begging for feedback.
Yes some stuff seems to have been addressed in recent patches, but A LOT of it still remains untouched...with less than a week before it is supposed to be pushed out. IMHO it needs a fair bit of love before its ready for the general population. |
Nolan Kotulan
53
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Posted - 2014.12.01 22:26:44 -
[429] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Quintessen wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:Theon Severasse wrote: Since I've backed up my argument with what came up with my search, maybe you could return the favour CCP and show us the scientific paper that you apparently have access to that shows that it has been "scientifically proven" that colourless icons are easier to recognise?
After spending 3 hours going through google and contacting one of my old professors (exactly his field) I have not been able to find a respectable study to back up the notion of "Removing all colour from context which only includes different and detailed shapes improves the time it takes for humans to find the correct shape". There were about 7 studies with a total of 9 citations between them saying this but they're not either current (1970's says "hi") or were never cited and cannot be considered valid. Three of these studies were limited to 8 shapes or less. I have to join you on this request on CCP to quote the study. After all, quoting the content of a study and not quoting the study itself is bad form and will get you laughed at. A lot of the core HCI work that's been done was originally done in the '70s. This is one field where the age of the work doesn't necessarily invalidate it. Actually that's true in general. Remember that humans haven't changed much so a human's ability to distinguish between shapes and how color influences that would not have changed since the '70s. Our eyes and brains haven't changed since then, why should the result have? New HCI material that covers interactions that weren't possible in the '70s would be valid and there wasn't a lot on virtual reality then. Also touch screens weren't as refined, but the core concept is there. Ubiquity of touch screens gives us a lot more data than we used to have so some conclusions have changed, but all the core work has been done. The Mac usability guidelines that Apple still uses today are almost unchanged from when Jeff Raskin originally wrote them back in the '70's and '80s. And all that said, iconography predates all of that. So, no, your older studies are still valid. I tried to make a point over how studies which have citations in the tens or hundreds over this subject confirming CCP's statement is hard to find, I guess I went over board with the prodding. You don't happen to have one at hand?
Do you know what typography, iconography and pictography are and why they are like they are (shapes)?
Study or read about writing history, print industry, font designers, typography and art history in general and you'll stop stupidly asking for "recent" studies by yourself...
Brains work almost in the same manner as they did centuries ago... |
Quintessen
Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos
441
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Posted - 2014.12.01 22:56:58 -
[430] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:I tried to make a point over how studies which have citations in the tens or hundreds over this subject confirming CCP's statement is hard to find, I guess I went over board with the prodding.
You don't happen to have one at hand?
A lot of these studies are behind journal paywalls, but you might be able to find them at your local college library. I'm no longer a student so most of my knowledge now is gained from reading summations of various material. I, however, can point people to some authors of usability works in general.
Don Norman Jakob Nielsen Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini Jeff Raskin Jared Spool Edward Tufte Steve Krug
I'm sure there are younger people now, but these are who I learned in school and what they've written mostly still applies. Many of their books still sit on my shelves because of a firm understanding that they are still relevant -- much more so than my books on specific technologies.
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Quintessen
Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos
441
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Posted - 2014.12.01 23:05:34 -
[431] - Quote
Nolan Kotulan wrote:EditAnd here is your simple answer (did you never try this test?)... Say the real colour names, not the written ones... Good luck! ;-)
Not quite the same thing. A similar principle applies though. The brain just doesn't differentiate well on color. It's not designed to and it doesn't help it survive much. You don't need great color vision to survive. Rough color vision will work so the brain doesn't create really specialized structures to remember fine color detail. If I showed everyone a color for a few minutes, hid it and showed those same people that color again with four similar colors a few hours later, it's a low probability that the respondents would do better than random chance.
However the same isn't true for shapes. Simple shapes are strongly encoded in our memories. The evolution for written language also gives us strong memory for glyphs. |
Nolan Kotulan
53
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Posted - 2014.12.01 23:08:45 -
[432] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:Nolan Kotulan wrote:EditAnd here is your simple answer (did you never try this test?)... Say the real colour names, not the written ones... Good luck! ;-) Not quite the same thing. A similar principle applies though. The brain just doesn't differentiate well on color. It's not designed to and it doesn't help it survive much. You don't need great color vision to survive. Rough color vision will work so the brain doesn't create really specialized structures to remember fine color detail. If I showed everyone a color for a few minutes, hid it and showed those same people that color again with four similar colors a few hours later, it's a low probability that the respondents would do better than random chance. However the same isn't true for shapes. Simple shapes are strongly encoded in our memories. The evolution for written language also gives us strong memory for glyphs.
Nothing else to add! :) |
Nolan Kotulan
53
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Posted - 2014.12.01 23:10:20 -
[433] - Quote
Deleted |
Theon Severasse
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
86
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Posted - 2014.12.02 01:21:56 -
[434] - Quote
OK.
But can you find anything that shows that a blury UI is good? |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
23
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Posted - 2014.12.02 09:04:40 -
[435] - Quote
I Like it. 2 things. Does it scale to 300% for 4k resolutions and will it allow me to not end up with windows everywhere for normal operation? In particular the current overview and chat windows make it difficult to fit everything you need. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
26398
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Posted - 2014.12.02 09:39:28 -
[436] - Quote
hey gents
when I go to move fleet members around, the initial click and drag selects everyone in squad. I don't recall it acting that way before. any chance we could eliminate this double click requirement to select individual fleet members?
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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prolix travail
Blue Mountain Trails
20
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Posted - 2014.12.02 15:03:56 -
[437] - Quote
The new ui updates you made yesterday/today? are most welcome! pinned windows not being totally clear is great, ability to turn off blur even better. Customization is king! |
Saberlily Whyteshadow
Perkone Caldari State
66
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Posted - 2014.12.02 15:47:07 -
[438] - Quote
YESSss!!
Thank You for listening and enabling on/off feature for window blur effects..
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Cynthia Aishai
State War Academy Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:27:09 -
[439] - Quote
Thank you, CCP, for adding the 'Enable window blur' option!!
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SpaceSaft
Capts Deranged Cavaliers Gentlemen's.Club
105
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:04:56 -
[440] - Quote
I'm still disappointed by the lack of color choices and therefore to me this is still a step back. |
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Cajun Style
Shattered Planet
21
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:54:29 -
[441] - Quote
The new theme options that you released today are vastly inferior to the options we had on SiSi before. The new ORE theme is gross. Looks like I'm sticking to black on patch day after all. |
Martin Gregor
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:50:16 -
[442] - Quote
UI looks fantastic, but there is one thing that creeps me out every time: http://i.imgur.com/ky0cBhe.jpg
Every time I look at this I think "damnit I forgot to fit half of my modules" - so please make the module buttons visible as well.
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Noriko Mai
1629
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:51:23 -
[443] - Quote
I want Minmatar Background and Carbon UI elements (basically Dark Opaque from TQ)!!! And I want it now!!! |
Noriko Mai
1629
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:53:06 -
[444] - Quote
Martin Gregor wrote:UI looks fantastic, but there is one thing that creeps me out every time: http://i.imgur.com/ky0cBhe.jpg Every time I look at this I think "damnit I forgot to fit half of my modules" - so please make the module buttons visible as well. Deactivate "Enable window blur" |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1446
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Posted - 2014.12.02 19:14:28 -
[445] - Quote
Still no RGB color slider for the UI?
Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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Nolan Kotulan
54
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Posted - 2014.12.02 22:24:56 -
[446] - Quote
Damn CCP, what did you do??? You listened to us!!! And you know what? ... This is far more better than it was before! This is even almost really good!
THANK YOU!!!
This blur option was, still is and will always be really an imperative...
The UI is know ready for release in my personnal own opinion and the new design compared to the old TQ one is worth it and very well done!
Except (yes, there is always something...): - Wondering why did you remove (again) the transparency slider? - I didn't try any other theme but black one, so maybe they suck, maybe not, I don't know (cf. other comments)... - Please, please, please, I beg you, remove these corner brackets. This doesn't fit in well at all. This is distracting and confusing (yes, still...), ugly, useless, "too much"! Over bright backgrounds windows look like they're unfinished in the corners, like cuted off, bitten...
Anyway, good work!
BUT REMOVE THESE CORNER BRACKETS DAMNIT!!!
What a graphical aberration... |
Sky Marshal
Core Industry. Circle-Of-Two
11
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Posted - 2014.12.02 22:31:16 -
[447] - Quote
RGB sliders must return. The only choice we have is dark, dark, dark... It make the UI hard to use for people like me.
I prefer a gaming experience who is confortable for me, than a gaming experience who is coherent with itself. The dark themes are coherent with the dark feeling of the Eve Universe, but it is the player who plays the game, not the game itself.
So please, return this options as fast as you can. |
Amber Lana
AMAX Research and Destruction
36
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Posted - 2014.12.03 00:07:14 -
[448] - Quote
Anyone have a picture of the current UI? Can't get on Sisi myself.
"And it rained tears for fourty days and fourty nights."
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
952
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Posted - 2014.12.03 00:20:36 -
[449] - Quote
Some very nice improvements guys! And for a moment you had us worried. Tsk tsk.
Now for some last pieces of feedback before you wrap up for the release:
1. Customization is always good. I'm personally a fan of the dark color schemes, but options to customize your own primary and secondary color would be great. If it's not an option to get that done for Rhea, at least consider it for the next release.
2. The transparency slider is a great addition, but it would be even better if we could also control the transparency level for selected windows and the Neocom separately. The functionality of a selected window becoming more opaque is very good, but controlling just how opaque it gets would be a very user friendly addition. Again, probably not for Rhea, but something to work on.
3. As cool as the new blur effect is, personally I like the ability to make windows fully transparent much more. In a way it creates more screen real estate where the blur effect does the complete opposite. And even at full transparency pinned windows aren't hard to read at all unless you're staring at the sun. I think that's the greater improvement over the blur effect, ironically enough.
4. Most of the icons look good now. Despite a lack of color I feel they are growing on me and becoming easier to find each time I check Sisi. So good work there. There are some icons that still need work though and I would advice to get this done before Rhea's release because changing icons around later is not the best way to keep newer players who have enough to learn as it is.
Particularly the icons for the Fitting Screen, Cargo Hold and Ship Hanger, which all use the top-down rifter icon, really need to be looked at again. As mentioned before the Rifter simply isn't recognizable as a ship in those icons. And unless a new player starts out as Minmatar and a Rifter is the first ship they see, newbies are going to be utterly confused by it.
And Aura really just needs to be redesigned all together. She still looks like some sort of alien, which is particularly confusing for lore loving newbies since this is a space game but it has never actually featured any aliens. Personally I think you can get away with the original image for Aura perfectly fine. Maybe adjust the colors to match the rest of the icons, but the shape and look of the original image wouldn't stand out immensely. More importantly it would allow Aura to retain her 'character' as an AI instead of being reduced to a simplistic alien icon in the Neocom.
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Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
62
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Posted - 2014.12.03 01:15:21 -
[450] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:
3. As cool as the new blur effect is, personally I like the ability to make windows fully transparent much more. In a way it creates more screen real estate where the blur effect does the complete opposite. And even at full transparency pinned windows aren't hard to read at all unless you're staring at the sun. I think that's the greater improvement over the blur effect, ironically enough.
This is my number one issue with the new UI. There absolutely needs to be an option for a total transparency. I like how i can pin/unpin windows on TQ right now to switch between transparency states, so maybe there could be two different sliders for the new transparency effects - each for a different window state? |
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