Then we need a new server for the old version of EVE updated with some reasonable streamlining of stuff that exists in the old/core version of EVE. That way CCP can please you by gutting EVE like they're doing already but even more, while pleasing people who enjoy the original. It's going to be a coke vs coke-zero debacle anyway. Let's get this over with.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have as much fun as you want, but I enjoyed EVE as it was. That game is going away. You're alternatively saying I shouldn't have as much fun as I want because you've decided certain mechanics should go.

With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.

Then we need a new server for the old version of EVE updated with some reasonable streamlining of stuff that exists in the old/core version of EVE. That way CCP can please you by gutting EVE like they're doing already but even more, while pleasing people who enjoy the original. It's going to be a coke vs coke-zero debacle anyway. Let's get this over with.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have as much fun as you want, but I enjoyed EVE as it was. That game is going away. You're alternatively saying I shouldn't have as much fun as I want because you've decided certain mechanics should go.

With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.

It was fine for 10 years.

Fun is all about a person's intrinsic motivators. It has nothing to do with game mechanics. It worries me that whatever complaints were voiced that are getting this removed are coming from the people that come into a game and complain about it instead of accept what is, when they'll be leaving in 2 months anyway because they already don't like the core of the game. The core of the game being exhibited by ancillary mechanics like clones, obviously.

Language is a funny thing. Calling it "anti-progressive" or "stagnant" implies a negative, despite reality being that sometimes things are the way they are for good reasons.



As an example of why this strawman of calling things "anti-progressive" is exacttly that, a strawman.

Clones and clone costs have always been a part of Eve. They make sense in the scope of the game. They aren't a problem for anyone to pay off, ever. Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones. Why would the empires simply hand out clones for free just cause of feels?

First it was the removal of needed standings for certain game mechanics, now it's clone costs. If we don't halt this now, it'll be learning implants gone next, and then standings will probably go away altogether. Why is the original vision of Eve being torn apart? It was fine for 10 years.

This change may possibly result in effectively closing off low sec systems with medical facilities. What good will it do to kill 3 or 4 times each of the horde of crap frigates attacking you when they show back up 45 seconds later with almost zero expense to their side. There is being more friendly to new players and then there is changing the game to arcade mode. This feels like a step towards the latter. I hope the actual implementation will prove me wrong.

So basically some people are complaining about the removal of clone costs?

What's wrong with you??

Definitely WTB pod interdiction nullification. If we're talking choices, there is currently no choice about getting podded in 0.0. It just discourages implant use for no good reason.

Edit: also WTB Tags4Standings as discussed in the CSM9 minutes.

So basically some people are complaining about the removal of clone costs?

What's wrong with you??

Clones and clone costs have always been a part of Eve. They make sense in the scope of the game. They aren't a problem for anyone to pay off, ever. Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones. Why would the empires simply hand out clones for free just cause of feels?

First it was the removal of needed standings for certain game mechanics, now it's clone costs. If we don't halt this now, it'll be learning implants gone next, and then standings will probably go away altogether. Why is the original vision of Eve being torn apart? It was fine for 10 years.

Let's not allow this Rhea patch to go through. Post here to save our clones.

Now I must spend more ISK on clothes \o/

Ria patch looks excellent. +1 for Ria.

Definitely WTB pod interdiction nullification. If we're talking choices, there is currently no choice about getting podded in 0.0. It just discourages implant use for no good reason.

Edit: also WTB Tags4Standings as discussed in the CSM9 minutes.

Aw, you shouldn't have.

With the caveat that I'm not a game designer, I do understand the reasoning and I'll share it.

The fundamental issue is that clone grades don't add a choice. When you are pod killed, you aren't presented with an interesting question -- "Should I upgrade my pod? How much should I upgrade it?"

Instead, you either upgrade, and protect your skill points against an inevitable further pod kill, or you don't, and suffer. One choice is so incredibly better than the other that you'll always pick it, unless you happen to forget.

Good game design isn't about punishing mere forgetfulness. It should be about presenting a meaningful choice to a player and letting them pick which way to go, with benefits to offset risk. Clone upgrade costs just don't do that -- they present a choice for which there's only one right answer.

So to get the maximum out of your high end slaves, you'll need a compatible body

Eve is turning into a theme park, clones are going the way of the skill que, they said it would never be longer than a 24hour slot so you could learn all the small skills without having to set the alarm clock. Yes you could put a long skill in at the end to make it longer. They caved in and made it as long as you want.

This game really is getting easy, befor long it will be wow in space.