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Dersen Lowery Drinking in Station 1288	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:08:51 - [391] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: However, i strongly suspect that the People who have played eve for a long time dont want a friendly game; that we are all here for eve being a harsh reality type sandbox. Cutting back on the death penalty is just the wrong way to go, if ccp wants its pvp to have meaning. Vol Arm'OOO's signature wrote: I don't play, I just fourm[sic] warrior. So, how's that harsh reality type sandbox working out for you? I am enjoying all the complaints about the move toward both risk and loss being entirely player-generated. You choose your ship; someone else chooses to shoot it out from under you. Oh, no, the sandbox is dead! Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
Mashie Saldana Lock'n'Point Warp to Cyno. 1192	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:18:18 - [392] - Quote Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Mashie Saldana wrote: This change is great. I have about 188m sp and a new clone costs me more than 50m isk. I mostly do pvp in lowsec so I rarely lose my pod but if I lived in null I'd hate to spend 50 mil just on clones. Good job CCP You have 188m SP and a 50m hit on what I would expect to be a less than average death rate is upsetting to you? I have about 31M sp and I can wipe my arse with 50M Isk Bills. He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it: RIP Every other MMO that went soft hoping to draw in more of the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers generation. Who said it's upsetting me? Learn to read bro. I said if I lived in null I woudn't like to pay for them clones. Not like it would hurt my wallet a lot, but why should I pay more than someone else just because I have more SP? This change will bring more pvp into eve. More targets is always good. And that's what it is all about. This mechanic was pretty stupid in the first place. If you think this is somehow going to soften eve then you're wrong.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 25245	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:20:59 - [393] - Quote there will still be clones that cost something. just won't be loss of subscription fees. whoa suddenly a mashie saldana President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Jvpiter Jovelike 1628	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:27:06 - [394] - Quote Ssabat Thraxx wrote: You have 188m SP and a 50m hit on what I would expect to be a less than average death rate is upsetting to you? I have about 31M sp and I can wipe my arse with 50M Isk Bills. He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it: RIP Every other MMO that went soft hoping to draw in more of the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers generation. The imaginary slippery slope is a great platform for outrage without the need for things like data or arguments or any sort of detailed discussion of game mechanics. Feel free to vote with your wallet and move to another MMO. But we both know you'll be back. Call me Joe. I am a humble worshipper-servant of Nami Kumamato.
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 62	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:32:21 - [395] - Quote Ssabat Thraxx wrote: [ You have 188m SP and a 50m hit on what I would expect to be a less than average death rate is upsetting to you? I have about 31M sp and I can wipe my arse with 50M Isk Bills. He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it: RIP Every other MMO that went soft hoping to draw in more of the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers generation. so does this mean i can haz your stuffz? o.O btw, #savethelance Just Add Water
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 25245	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:35:29 - [396] - Quote ok, I give up: who is lance? President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 63	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:38:12 - [397] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: ok, I give up: who is lance? Lance seriously, #savethelance Just Add Water
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 1733	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:50:29 - [398] - Quote Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Mashie Saldana wrote: This change is great. I have about 188m sp and a new clone costs me more than 50m isk. I mostly do pvp in lowsec so I rarely lose my pod but if I lived in null I'd hate to spend 50 mil just on clones. Good job CCP You have 188m SP and a 50m hit on what I would expect to be a less than average death rate is upsetting to you? I have about 31M sp and I can wipe my arse with 50M Isk Bills. He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it: RIP Every other MMO that went soft hoping to draw in more of the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers generation. wel then, if its so damn easy for high SP characters, why keep it around?
Gizznitt Malikite agony unleashed Agony Empire 4182	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:37:50 - [399] - Quote I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs. It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost! What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play!
Jenshae Chiroptera 517	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:22:26 - [400] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs. It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost! What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play! There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. Status: Bouncing on the diving board.

Jvpiter Jovelike 1664	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:29:59 - [401] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy Sounds like auto bill pay, which is one of the worst ideas to come around to drain your wallet while you are blissfully ignorant of rate hikes and billing gaffs. Call me Joe. I am a humble worshipper-servant of Nami Kumamato.
Gizznitt Malikite agony unleashed Agony Empire 4184	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:39:32 - [402] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs. It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost! What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play! There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy The auto-pay simply makes it so pilots never forget to upgrade their clone. That is nice, but irrelevant to the mechanic itself. What does the clone cost add to the game?
Ama Scelesta 116	Posted - 2014.11.20 18:40:59 - [403] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs. It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost! What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play! There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy The reason it is removed is because it is a bad mechanic, that doesn't serve a purpose that the remaining mechanics can't already do. Loss on death will be handled by ships, modules, rigs and implants. Main difference being you just get a performance increase with risking more and the level of minimum risk is now lower and equal for all. Making suggestions about how the current system can be made more convenient still doesn't actually give CCP any reasons to keep it around. Convenient pointless bad is still bad.
Vol Arm'OOO Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 322	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:26:52 - [404] - Quote Maekchu wrote: This discussion is not about HTFU or people forgetting to upgrade a clone and not being able to cover the cost. If you think, that removing the clone costs only has these effects, then you truly cannot think outside the boundaries of your limiting head. What removing the clone costs in reality will accomplish, is getting older players out in space more frequently and in smaller ships. This will improve EVE overall, since there will be more stuff to shoot. I will never understand risk averse players. But undocking a 10M frigate just to lose a 100M clone, is not risk averse. That is just stupid. Yes, you can get your pod out 99% in lowsec and highsec. But what about nullsec? You cannot just say, "Well getting your pod out is easy", when you are sitting in a bubble. Come on guys, use your freaking head. This "Save our Clones Initiative" is just for people who have a hard time with changes, or are smartbombing gatecampiners in Rancer. For improvement of EVE in general, you should welcome this change with open arms. I'm all for having risk when losing your ships, don't get me wrong. But that risk should be tied to your ship. I will welcome skill loss on capital and subcapital ships (just as with T3s) with open arms. I'd welcome decreasing, or even removing the ISK from insurance. I'd welcome changes that increase the costs of ships. But you all cry for risk, but if any of these changes would be introduced, we'd have another river of tears coming. Now, where can we sign up for a petition to get this change out even sooner? No it wont improve eve at all. Getting vets into smaller ships engaging in small combat presents a disadvantage to newer players (yes sp doesnt equal skill, but experience counts). But more to the point, getting rid of clone costs devalues death and makes pvp less meaningful. Since ship loss is not a barrier to vets (at least for typical subcap t1 hulls), death becomes meaningless for vets without clone costs. Whenever these changes have been done in other mmo's it has promoted negative conduct such as zerging and other largely thoughtless behavior. I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Vol Arm'OOO Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 322	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:31:03 - [405] - Quote Ama Scelesta wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs. It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost! What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play! There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy The reason it is removed is because it is a bad mechanic, that doesn't serve a purpose that the remaining mechanics can't already do. Loss on death will be handled by ships, modules, rigs and implants. Main difference being you just get a performance increase with risking more and the level of minimum risk is now lower and equal for all. Making suggestions about how the current system can be made more convenient still doesn't actually give CCP any reasons to keep it around. Convenient pointless bad is still bad. Try to aim higher. Go for convenient meaningful good. Ships, modules, rigs and implants are meaningless when you are swimming in isk. There is very real isk inflation in eve. Most vets that I know, right now are sitting on huge piles of isk. Losing a t1 ship and its mods is meaningless. Clone costs ensure that there is a floor level risk that a vet must engage in when he pvp's, thereby balancing pvp for new players and old alike. It also should be pointed out that it is an isk sink - sucking some of the isk out of the game. We certainly dont need fewer isk sinks in this game. I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 2144	Posted - 2014.11.20 20:47:08 - [406] - Quote Ama Scelesta wrote: The reason it is removed is because it is a bad mechanic, that doesn't serve a purpose that the remaining mechanics can't already do. Loss on death will be handled by ships, modules, rigs and implants. Main difference being you just get a performance increase with risking more and the level of minimum risk is now lower and equal for all. Making suggestions about how the current system can be made more convenient still doesn't actually give CCP any reasons to keep it around. Convenient pointless bad is still bad. Try to aim higher. Go for convenient meaningful good. Higher SP give you higher performance, not just implants. Each level V skill usually gives you at least a +5% bonus to something (also depending on what you're flying, obviously). That same +5% bonus usually costs at least 100Mil if you want it in implants... I'm perfectly fine with CCP removing clone costs, but the old mechanic did have a rationale: a 50Mil SP clone is certainly worth more, combat-wise, than a 5Mil SP clone. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 2348	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:14:02 - [407] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Ships, modules, rigs and implants are meaningless when you are swimming in isk. There is very real isk inflation in eve. Most vets that I know, right now are sitting on huge piles of isk. Losing a t1 ship and its mods is meaningless. Clone costs ensure that there is a floor level risk that a vet must engage in when he pvp's, thereby balancing pvp for new players and old alike. So vets are swimming in isk. So isk is largely meaningless to their PVP. So the cost of their clones would essentially meaningless. So whether we have clone costs or not is just a drop in the bucket for these vets. So removing clone costs really shouldn't be the big OMG EVE IS DYING issue this thread is trying to make it.
Carmen Electra The Scope Gallente Federation 13385	Posted - 2014.11.20 21:35:03 - [408] - Quote 13kr1d1 wrote: At least I'll agree with you the UI is crap. Going from full colored 3D shapes to grayscale 2D pictures? Really? That's an improvement? Hope someone got fired for that nugget. The new UI is a huge improvement. Colorful 3D shapes emphasize form over function, and graphic designers are starting to understand this. 2001 vs 2014. Graphic designers (including the ones at CCP) are making this change across the board, and it's for the best. Look at Windows 8 vs Windows Vista. Of course, Michael Okuda had this all figured out in 1987. Bacon makes us stronger
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 78	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:28:18 - [409] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Ships, modules, rigs and implants are meaningless when you are swimming in isk. There is very real isk inflation in eve. Most vets that I know, right now are sitting on huge piles of isk. Losing a t1 ship and its mods is meaningless. Clone costs ensure that there is a floor level risk that a vet must engage in when he pvp's, thereby balancing pvp for new players and old alike. So vets are swimming in isk. So isk is largely meaningless to their PVP. So the cost of their clones would essentially meaningless. So whether we have clone costs or not is just a drop in the bucket for these vets. So removing clone costs really shouldn't be the big OMG EVE IS DYING issue this thread is trying to make it. Conversely, have you seen the "vets' in this thread complaining about losing 20 mil per clone for flying frigates? Carmen Electra wrote: 13kr1d1 wrote: At least I'll agree with you the UI is crap. Going from full colored 3D shapes to grayscale 2D pictures? Really? That's an improvement? Hope someone got fired for that nugget. The new UI is a huge improvement. Colorful 3D shapes emphasize form over function, and graphic designers are starting to understand this. 2001 vs 2014. Graphic designers (including the ones at CCP) are making this change across the board, and it's for the best. Look at Windows 8 vs Windows Vista. Of course, Michael Okuda had this all figured out in 1987. I'm glad you're here to state your opinion as fact. Explain how coloring the buttons on the neocom suddenly makes it less functional, and you've got a good argument, otherwise, its dribble. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 78	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:31:36 - [410] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I fully support CCP removing the upgrade your clone to save your SP costs. It is not a choice whether or not I should upgrade my clone. If I don't upgrade it, my next clone death will cost me a month of skillpoints! No one thinks 40m isk is worth a month of training time, making it a mandatory cost! What is more, is the high clone costs discourage doing "risky things" with your ships, which is simply poor game play! There could be an option to auto-upgrade so you don't have to remember just keep enough ISK handy The auto-pay simply makes it so pilots never forget to upgrade their clone. That is nice, but irrelevant to the mechanic itself. What does the clone cost add to the game? An immersive game world experience? Now what does it remove from the game by having it? Nothing. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.

13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 78	Posted - 2014.11.20 22:34:39 - [411] - Quote Jvpiter wrote: Ssabat Thraxx wrote: You have 188m SP and a 50m hit on what I would expect to be a less than average death rate is upsetting to you? I have about 31M sp and I can wipe my arse with 50M Isk Bills. He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it: RIP Every other MMO that went soft hoping to draw in more of the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers generation. The imaginary slippery slope is a great platform for outrage without the need for things like data or arguments or any sort of detailed discussion of game mechanics. Feel free to vote with your wallet and move to another MMO. But we both know you'll be back. Irony is calling the slippery slope fallacy an invalid argument when we have a historical past replete with slippery slopes. Complacency is what causes them. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Jvpiter Jovelike 1736	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:23:23 - [412] - Quote Carmen Electra wrote: Of course, Michael Okuda had this all figured out in 1987. Are you perhaps unmarried and single? I am looking for a date to bring with me to Risa. Call me Joe. I am a humble worshipper-servant of Nami Kumamato.
Jvpiter Jovelike 1736	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:25:30 - [413] - Quote Oh look. More hypocrisy. 13kr1d1 wrote: Going from full colored 3D shapes to grayscale 2D pictures? Really? That's an improvement? Hope someone got fired for that nugget. Quote: Explain how coloring the buttons on the neocom suddenly makes it less functional, and you've got a good argument, otherwise, its dribble. I'm sure you will deny it. Call me Joe. I am a humble worshipper-servant of Nami Kumamato.
Jvpiter Jovelike 1736	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:30:16 - [414] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: [getting rid of clone costs devalues death and makes pvp less meaningful. Since ship loss is not a barrier to vets (at least for typical subcap t1 hulls), death becomes meaningless for vets without clone costs. Whenever these changes have been done in other mmo's it has promoted negative conduct such as zerging and other largely thoughtless behavior. I hope you have an actual example to back up this statement. Call me Joe. I am a humble worshipper-servant of Nami Kumamato.
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 79	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:44:10 - [415] - Quote Jvpiter wrote: Oh look. More hypocrisy. 13kr1d1 wrote: Going from full colored 3D shapes to grayscale 2D pictures? Really? That's an improvement? Hope someone got fired for that nugget. Quote: Explain how coloring the buttons on the neocom suddenly makes it less functional, and you've got a good argument, otherwise, its dribble. I'm sure you will deny it. In case you're confused, I like the buttons fully 3D looking and colored. Both were anti-grayscale stance. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Ssabat Thraxx Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project 970	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:55:52 - [416] - Quote Jvpiter wrote: Vol Arm'OOO wrote: [getting rid of clone costs devalues death and makes pvp less meaningful. Since ship loss is not a barrier to vets (at least for typical subcap t1 hulls), death becomes meaningless for vets without clone costs. Whenever these changes have been done in other mmo's it has promoted negative conduct such as zerging and other largely thoughtless behavior. I hope you have an actual example to back up this statement. Now you're just being absurd. Anyone who's been involved in mmo's with PVP know this is how it always goes in the end. \m/ O.o \m/ "You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Jvpiter Jovelike 1745	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:57:35 - [417] - Quote Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Now you're just being absurd. Anyone who's been involved in mmo's with PVP know this is how it always goes in the end. Then you should have no trouble providing an example, as asked. Call me Joe. I am a humble worshipper-servant of Nami Kumamato.
Jvpiter Jovelike 1746	Posted - 2014.11.21 01:59:55 - [418] - Quote 13kr1d1 wrote: In case you're confused, I like the buttons fully 3D looking and colored. Both were anti-grayscale stance. And you have no argument against the new UI except that you personally find it ugly. I personally find them to be acceptable. Did you want to sit around sharing opinions all day, or was there an argument to be presented somewhere? Call me Joe. I am a humble worshipper-servant of Nami Kumamato.
Maekchu Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 87	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:13:03 - [419] - Quote Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Maekchu wrote: This discussion is not about HTFU or people forgetting to upgrade a clone and not being able to cover the cost. If you think, that removing the clone costs only has these effects, then you truly cannot think outside the boundaries of your limiting head. What removing the clone costs in reality will accomplish, is getting older players out in space more frequently and in smaller ships. This will improve EVE overall, since there will be more stuff to shoot. I will never understand risk averse players. But undocking a 10M frigate just to lose a 100M clone, is not risk averse. That is just stupid. Yes, you can get your pod out 99% in lowsec and highsec. But what about nullsec? You cannot just say, "Well getting your pod out is easy", when you are sitting in a bubble. Come on guys, use your freaking head. This "Save our Clones Initiative" is just for people who have a hard time with changes, or are smartbombing gatecampiners in Rancer. For improvement of EVE in general, you should welcome this change with open arms. I'm all for having risk when losing your ships, don't get me wrong. But that risk should be tied to your ship. I will welcome skill loss on capital and subcapital ships (just as with T3s) with open arms. I'd welcome decreasing, or even removing the ISK from insurance. I'd welcome changes that increase the costs of ships. But you all cry for risk, but if any of these changes would be introduced, we'd have another river of tears coming. Now, where can we sign up for a petition to get this change out even sooner? No it wont improve eve at all. Getting vets into smaller ships engaging in small combat presents a disadvantage to newer players (yes sp doesnt equal skill, but experience counts). But more to the point, getting rid of clone costs devalues death and makes pvp less meaningful. Since ship loss is not a barrier to vets (at least for typical subcap t1 hulls), death becomes meaningless for vets without clone costs. Whenever these changes have been done in other mmo's it has promoted negative conduct such as zerging and other largely thoughtless behavior. Seems to me, that you are talking out of your ass. Are we even playing the same game? Zerging? So a kitchen sink blob, where one only needs to be able to press F1 is not zerging? Narh, you are right. This has never happened in EVE. Removing clone costs will mean that ONLY NOW, blops are introduced to EVE. If anything, getting vets into smaller ships and enjoying smaller scale PvP, means exactly the opposite. Less blops and hotdrops. More roaming around in smaller 10M ISK ships, that you won't have any issue losing or getting podded in. This change will mean more PvP, which is exactly what EVE needs to stay healthy. PvP is the ONLY thing EVE got going for itself. Without that, it is a very weak and clunky MMO, that really doesn't have anything that some other MMO doesn't do ten times better. Yes, obviously will new players have a disadvantage than older players, like in ANY game. There exist no game, where older players doesn't have an advantage. Even with the same tools, older player will have an advantage based on experience alone. So tell me, how will this be any different from any other game out there? Having newbies flying around and actually getting some action (newbies will for the most part only fly small cheap ships) is much better, compared with newbies flying around space, not finding a single engagement and then leaves EVE cause they think the game is boring.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 25246	Posted - 2014.11.21 02:15:53 - [420] - Quote this isn't immediately for the new players, or the children in the point about the mighty morphin power rangers (whoever that is, is that like captain planet). President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub \| Twitter \|-ámk.III \| Imgur \| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined \|



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