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Scarlett Anstian An My BLUE Alliance 49	Posted - 2015.07.31 12:10:17 - [1111] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: If CCP were to develop in game pokers rooms, lotteries, slot machines, etc. that would immediately classify Eve as a game that " encourage or teach gambling" under the PEGI system that CCP are already part of and legally, those aspects of the game may not be suitable to play in all countries, requiring CCP to comply with pieces of legislation that they might have no clue even exist. In relaton to removing that options from the game all together, well that doesn't seem possible. They already operate within the existing game. Adding WiS won't remove them. It may not say it but EVE Online is a game where gambling is prominent, risk vs reward for any activity in EVE is a gamble. Buying something in Jita is a gamble, fleeting up with that random stranger a gamble, waiting for your drones to return whilst someone is warping in to tackle you is a gamble. People spend a lot of money in this game and then see it destroyed or stolen. Is this not a game about gambling? To me it kinda is
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39438	Posted - 2015.07.31 12:16:02 - [1112] - Quote Scarlett Anstian wrote: Is this not a game about gambling? To me it kinda is To you it kinda might be. That's different to a legal classification, which do not currently apply to Eve. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 6460	Posted - 2015.07.31 12:52:04 - [1113] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: ... Most of the Incarna screeching was from the overly entitled players demanding more from their free expansions and from anger against microtransactions (which amusingly are now in exactly as they wanted them to be, and yet now everyone is fine with them). ... I have never used the NEX store. I might at some point to sell the free AUR. My anger was over my 8800 GTX card that Incarna melted along with a lot of other people's cards without so much as a "We are terribly sorry but the TOS means we are not liable and we can not be sure what we actually broke and would need to replace anyway. We do apologise and regret not doing deeper testing." If you GFX card melted, it was a configuration issue your end. No matter what load it gets put under, a GFX card should never melt (or burn out). At worst your PC should shut off when the temperature reaches critical (way below the temperature that causes physical damage). Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Then there was the whole thing where WoD developers made 3x Captain's Quarters in a fraction of the time that the EVE developers made one, so that indicates that wrong skill sets were applied to the job. The first one is going to take longer though, since when that was created there was no framework to build on. The whole engine behind it needs to be built. To build the 3 further ones it's just models and textures. Besides, the WoD team was involved in the whole process. As shown by the quote on a previous page, only 2 of the 9 teams involved in WiS were EVE teams. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Webvan All Kill No Skill 11847	Posted - 2015.07.31 12:57:01 - [1114] - Quote Scarlett Anstian wrote: Is this not a game about gambling? To me it kinda is Nope, it's a game of skill. Lady luck and her RNG is a killer. I'm in it for the money Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 6460	Posted - 2015.07.31 12:57:33 - [1115] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: But for me, aside from just doing it once, there's no meaningful new gameplay in "Scipio sits down and has a drink" sort of additions. They are fluff with no value to the things I play the game for. For me there's no meaningful gameplay in "this asteroid belt is surrounded by tiny rocks" or "these ships now look shinier and can have different colours", so perhaps they should just cease all graphical updates too then? The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 6460	Posted - 2015.07.31 13:02:28 - [1116] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Avvy wrote: ... For me it really comes down to would it be worth the effort required. Well to start off, it could be a far more immersive way to kill off those 3rd party gambling websites. I doubt it. That could occur two ways: 1. In game CCP developed gambling rooms; or 2. Removal of those 3rd party options from the game all together. If CCP were to develop in game pokers rooms, lotteries, slot machines, etc. that would immediately classify Eve as a game that " encourage or teach gambling" under the PEGI system that CCP are already part of and legally, those aspects of the game may not be suitable to play in all countries, requiring CCP to comply with pieces of legislation that they might have no clue even exist. In relation to removing that options from the game all together, well that doesn't seem possible. They already operate within the existing game. Adding WiS won't remove them. Actually, by adding the gambling classification on PEGI, it only means the game can't be lower than a 12, which it already is. It wouldn't require any legislation unless you were able to gamble for real money. Technically speaking they should already have that classification though, as you engage in gambling through third party sites and through the Jita spammers. Sure, those are in almost every case scams, but it's still a promotion of gambling occurring within the game and being specifically allowed by the developers. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Jenshae Chiroptera 2141	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:10:37 - [1117] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Avvy wrote: ... For me it really comes down to would it be worth the effort required. Well to start off, it could be a far more immersive way to kill off those 3rd party gambling websites. I doubt it.That could occur two ways: 1. In game CCP developed gambling rooms; or .... CCP can do it via a range of games, Monopoly, Go, Chess, gambling, et cetera. Just have it as a fact that they have more other games than gambling ones and the games are player run. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 1231	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:20:47 - [1118] - Quote Scarlett Anstian wrote: They are the video game developers and I think we should all start trusting them a bit more with where they want to take EVE. And CCP have decided not to advance WiS beyond what we already have. That being the case perhaps you should follow your own advice.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39439	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:27:20 - [1119] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Avvy wrote: ... For me it really comes down to would it be worth the effort required. Well to start off, it could be a far more immersive way to kill off those 3rd party gambling websites. I doubt it. That could occur two ways: 1. In game CCP developed gambling rooms; or 2. Removal of those 3rd party options from the game all together. If CCP were to develop in game pokers rooms, lotteries, slot machines, etc. that would immediately classify Eve as a game that " encourage or teach gambling" under the PEGI system that CCP are already part of and legally, those aspects of the game may not be suitable to play in all countries, requiring CCP to comply with pieces of legislation that they might have no clue even exist. In relation to removing that options from the game all together, well that doesn't seem possible. They already operate within the existing game. Adding WiS won't remove them. Actually, by adding the gambling classification on PEGI, it only means the game can't be lower than a 12, which it already is. It wouldn't require any legislation unless you were able to gamble for real money. Technically speaking they should already have that classification though, as you engage in gambling through third party sites and through the Jita spammers. Sure, those are in almost every case scams, but it's still a promotion of gambling occurring within the game and being specifically allowed by the developers. I didn't write that it required legislation. I wrote that adding gambling, directly CCP developed means they could be exposed to legislation that they are not even aware of, but must comply with. If you can 100% say that you understand all gaming legislation in place in every country Eve is played, then fair enough. If you can't though, then it's lucky that CCP have to take into account a whole range of issues when they develop features for the game and that includes considering the legal aspects. For example, in the Territory I live in, if CCP were to include poker or slot machines or lotteries or other similar features even with ISK inside Eve, the game would be classified for 18+only because of the ability to exchange cash for ISK, even though it can't go the other way. The game would have to be licenced by the gaming commission. CCP couldn't be expected to know that, yet if a parent or someone else reported it, they would be investigated for a breach of the law. I don't see why CCP would want to expose themselves to those sorts of risk and restrictions, let alone the do-gooders and perpetual complainers if 12 y/o kids were beIng taught by the game how to gamble. That just doesn't seem worth it to me. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1311	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:29:10 - [1120] - Quote why would ccp want to create gambling when 3rd parties do it for them and ccp dont have to put up with the sh!t that iwantisk deals with EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39439	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:36:58 - [1121] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: ... so perhaps they should just cease all graphical updates too then? If you think they should then great for you. Not what I think, but each to their own. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scarlett Anstian An My BLUE Alliance 54	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:38:20 - [1122] - Quote Aralyn Cormallen wrote: Scarlett Anstian wrote: They are the video game developers and I think we should all start trusting them a bit more with where they want to take EVE. And CCP have decided not to advance WiS beyond what we already have. That being the case perhaps you should follow your own advice. Actually they wanted to but there was such a **** storm from veteran players that they decided to bow under the pressure and work on more spaceships. If they didnt want to why did they make it in the first place? >.> durrrr
Jenshae Chiroptera 2141	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:38:32 - [1123] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: ... For example, in the Territory I live in, if CCP were to include poker or slot machines or lotteries or other similar features even with ISK inside Eve, the game would be classified for 18+only because of the ability to exchange cash for ISK, even though it can't go the other way. The game would have to be licenced by the gaming commission. .... Not the most difficult bit of code to disable your ability to gamble based on your location. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39439	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:46:54 - [1124] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: ... For example, in the Territory I live in, if CCP were to include poker or slot machines or lotteries or other similar features even with ISK inside Eve, the game would be classified for 18+only because of the ability to exchange cash for ISK, even though it can't go the other way. The game would have to be licenced by the gaming commission. .... Not the most difficult bit of code to disable your ability to gamble based on your location. Really? Break it down for me so that Eve is compliant and remains compliant with changing legislation Workdwide associated with gambling. If it's so easy, how do you achieve Worldwide compliance continuously? Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 6463	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:49:16 - [1125] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: If you can 100% say that you understand all gaming legislation in place in every country Eve is played, then fair enough. If you can't though, then it's lucky that CCP have to take into account a whole range of issues when they develop features for the game and that includes considering the legal aspects. Obviously I can't say that, but I can say that I know of no game that has had to deal with legislation over purely in-game gambling systems with no real money gambling. As PEGI is an opt-in classification system, there's no reason to believe they would have to do anything more based on that classification changing, doubly so because the game already has significant elements of gambling within it. Scipio Artelius wrote: For example, in the Territory I live in, if CCP were to include poker or slot machines or lotteries or other similar features even with ISK inside Eve, the game would be classified for 18+only because of the ability to exchange cash for ISK, even though it can't go the other way. The game would have to be licenced by the gaming commission. What territory would that be? The game should already be 18+ then because you can buy PLEX, trade it for ISK and pay it straight into the BIG lottery. I don't believe you are understanding that legislation correctly as it would make a huge number of games require 18+ certification and licensing. Generally that's only required if you can gamble cash for cash (or transfer them both ways through tokens to gamble with). The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39439	Posted - 2015.07.31 14:59:51 - [1126] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: If you can 100% say that you understand all gaming legislation in place in every country Eve is played, then fair enough. If you can't though, then it's lucky that CCP have to take into account a whole range of issues when they develop features for the game and that includes considering the legal aspects. Obviously I can't say that, but I can say that I know of no game that has had to deal with legislation over purely in-game gambling systems with no real money gambling. As PEGI is an opt-in classification system, there's no reason to believe they would have to do anything more based on that classification changing, doubly so because the game already has significant elements of gambling within it. Scipio Artelius wrote: For example, in the Territory I live in, if CCP were to include poker or slot machines or lotteries or other similar features even with ISK inside Eve, the game would be classified for 18+only because of the ability to exchange cash for ISK, even though it can't go the other way. The game would have to be licenced by the gaming commission. What territory would that be? The game should already be 18+ then because you can buy PLEX, trade it for ISK and pay it straight into the BIG lottery. I don't believe you are understanding that legislation correctly as it would make a huge number of games require 18+ certification and licensing. Generally that's only required if you can gamble cash for cash (or transfer them both ways through tokens to gamble with). Australian Capital Territory and yes I'm understanding the legislation correctly. Whether you want to believe that or not. CCP don't directly offer gambling in the game, nor do they offer it outside the game. 3rd parties do. So the risk isn't with CCP unless they directly offer it as mentioned as a possibility for WiS by Jenshae above. But the moment CCP decide to develop gambling options as features of Eve, then they would be accepting the responsibility to comply. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1312	Posted - 2015.07.31 15:02:26 - [1127] - Quote thing that bother me is everyone wants something which is already available but they seem to want it to a slow and more inconvenient way EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 12016	Posted - 2015.07.31 15:16:27 - [1128] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: thing that bother me is everyone wants something which is already available but they seem to want it to a slow and more inconvenient way But but but,....."Immersion"! Who needs a spaceship with a warp drive when you can use LEGS! It works in real life too, instead of driving my car for 10 minutes to go the 8 miles to work, I immerse myself by getting out the old horse and buggy and taking 14 days to make the same trip lol. Can't wait till CCP gives us real WiS so I can watch people walk to talk to their agent while I click a single button to accomplish the same goal and make more isk per hour
Jenshae Chiroptera 2141	Posted - 2015.07.31 15:17:49 - [1129] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: ... If it's so easy, how do you achieve Worldwide compliance continuously? Back bone IP addresses are static. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39439	Posted - 2015.07.31 15:24:12 - [1130] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: ... If it's so easy, how do you achieve Worldwide compliance continuously? Back bone IP addresses are static. That doesn't break it down. How does CCP keep track of which places it can be switched on for and which it can't? You can block an IP from an aspect of the game, but how are you going to track which ones? I keep track of legislative changes (in a completely different subject area, not gambling related) regionally to help keep the relevant countries compliant with treaty obligations. It's a nightmare just on a regional level of 34 countries, let alone Worldwide. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 480	Posted - 2015.07.31 15:40:08 - [1131] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: But but but,....."Immersion"! Who needs a spaceship with a warp drive when you can use LEGS! Why we mine when we can have minerals from the market? WIS should bring oportunities to use legs, to bring more content in EVE market also along with quarters to walk in. Else it woud be just another CQ room. That we have already. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1316	Posted - 2015.07.31 15:50:27 - [1132] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: But but but,....."Immersion"! Who needs a spaceship with a warp drive when you can use LEGS! Why we mine when we can have minerals from the market? WIS should bring oportunities to use legs, to bring more content in EVE market also along with quarters to walk in. Else it woud be just another CQ room. That we have already. well if nobody mined then there would be none on the market lol EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding \| Digital Design
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 6463	Posted - 2015.07.31 15:56:09 - [1133] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Australian Capital Territory and yes I'm understanding the legislation correctly. Whether you want to believe that or not. I can't find any mention anywhere of gambling for virtual currency being disallowed. The only references I can find are when it constitutes real money gambling, such as second life. Scipio Artelius wrote: CCP don't directly offer gambling in the game, nor do they offer it outside the game. 3rd parties do. So the risk isn't with CCP unless they directly offer it as mentioned as a possibility for WiS by Jenshae above. But the moment CCP decide to develop gambling options as features of Eve, then they would be accepting the responsibility to comply. It's irrelevant how it's offered up, they actively allow it. They've even partnered with some of the 3rd party gambling corps for official events. Scipio Artelius wrote: While we can both see that it is all in game currency, so might seem just the same as any other free online games and apps, the law isn't always so straight forward. The ability to purchase PLEX for cash, sell that for ISK and then gamble exposes problem gamblers to the potential of substantial real cash loss in game. Problem gambling has had a significant focus from the community in Australia over the last few years and being the nanny State we are, legislation to protect people from themselves has been implemented in recent years. They already are at risk. They could buy 1000 plex, convert it all to isk and throw it all into iwantisk. There's no reason that wouldn't cause as much grief for CCP as a system the built themselves. In fact a system they built themselves would more easily be able to handle limits on the amount you can put in. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 6463	Posted - 2015.07.31 16:06:13 - [1134] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: It works in real life too, instead of driving my car for 10 minutes to go the 8 miles to work, I immerse myself by getting out the old horse and buggy and taking 14 days to make the same trip lol. Can't wait till CCP gives us real WiS so I can watch people walk to talk to their agent while I click a single button to accomplish the same goal and make more isk per hour Instead of going to the shop and just buying some fish to take home and eat tomorrow, I'm going to go to the shop, buy some fish and worms, go to a pier, spend 8 hours fishing and catch some fish to take home and eat. Sometimes it can be fun to take your time. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Jenshae Chiroptera 2141	Posted - 2015.07.31 16:08:53 - [1135] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: ... If it's so easy, how do you achieve Worldwide compliance continuously? Back bone IP addresses are static. You can block an IP from an aspect of the game, but how are you going to track which ones? I thought you would be able to see it easily enough but I will give a basic run down (there are work arounds for this basic one, however, it would probably be sufficient measures for rating purposes) - Table of states / countries that have a problem with gambling. - Backbone IP address list for those places. - Tracert. - Compare results. - If they are using a problem IP for routing then turn off the gambling games. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39439	Posted - 2015.07.31 16:10:40 - [1136] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Australian Capital Territory and yes I'm understanding the legislation correctly. Whether you want to believe that or not. I can't find any mention anywhere of gambling for virtual currency being disallowed. The only references I can find are when it constitutes real money gambling, such as second life. Scipio Artelius wrote: CCP don't directly offer gambling in the game, nor do they offer it outside the game. 3rd parties do. So the risk isn't with CCP unless they directly offer it as mentioned as a possibility for WiS by Jenshae above. But the moment CCP decide to develop gambling options as features of Eve, then they would be accepting the responsibility to comply. It's irrelevant how it's offered up, they actively allow it. They've even partnered with some of the 3rd party gambling corps for official events. Scipio Artelius wrote: While we can both see that it is all in game currency, so might seem just the same as any other free online games and apps, the law isn't always so straight forward. The ability to purchase PLEX for cash, sell that for ISK and then gamble exposes problem gamblers to the potential of substantial real cash loss in game. Problem gambling has had a significant focus from the community in Australia over the last few years and being the nanny State we are, legislation to protect people from themselves has been implemented in recent years. They already are at risk. They could buy 1000 plex, convert it all to isk and throw it all into iwantisk. There's no reason that wouldn't cause as much grief for CCP as a system the built themselves. In fact a system they built themselves would more easily be able to handle limits on the amount you can put in. That you can't find the relevant legislation is exactly the sort of problem that CCP would face. You can argue all you want that it's all the same. We are both space lawyering here and not from any solid foundation to do so. What both of us are talking about are based on our layman views. Trying to suggest anything more is stupid. I know the things I am aware of in relation to my country, but I'm not a lawyer and I certainly don't know the finer details of how responsibility for different aspects falls under the law. Until something is actually tested in a court then any position is just opinion. So arguing this is just stupid. It's not as simple as CCP could replace all 3rd party gambling by including it in WiS. it's more complex then that. How much more complex. **** knows but I certainly don't take confidence just because you say so. That would be the last thing I would ever do, since most discussions with you are just circular arguments that go nowhere. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Jenshae Chiroptera 2141	Posted - 2015.07.31 16:16:33 - [1137] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: ... Until something is actually tested in a court then any position is just opinion. ... Look up the specific cases and legislation. There are already games with gambling in them. Who ever put pressure on Second Life (servers in California) ruled that all gambling must be "skill" based (like poker and they have slot machines that have little tile puzzles on them) as their currency directly translates into real money. There are many gambling web sites that would have had similar problems regarding ratings. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids . High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 481	Posted - 2015.07.31 16:19:08 - [1138] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: well if nobody mined then there would be none on the market lol So true. Now leave and close the door using only spaceship with warp drive. Not even with legs. Hands. We have hands. Dont use them. You could make something useful. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 39439	Posted - 2015.07.31 16:23:55 - [1139] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: ... Until something is actually tested in a court then any position is just opinion. ... Look up the specific cases and legislation. There are already games with gambling in them. Who ever put pressure on Second Life (servers in California) ruled that all gambling must be "skill" based (like poker and they have slot machines that have little tile puzzles on them) as their currency directly translates into real money. There are many gambling web sites that would have had similar problems regarding ratings. We're just going off topic here and for that I apologise. I've said my piece and don't want to take the thread fetcher off topic by discussing where rulings of any court apply. So back to WiS. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 1234	Posted - 2015.07.31 16:56:54 - [1140] - Quote Its also worth noting the fuss over corporate logos. It's not sufficient to say a given law does or doesn't effect a given situation - what matters is whether CCP's lawyers (the people paid to ensure they comply with all relevant laws) is satisfied that everything has been complied with. Like the corp-logo internet lawyers, you can provide whatever evidence you like to claim whatever you like til your blue in the face, but if CCP's lawyers aren't 100%, its just noise, and CCP wont risk massive law-suits on say so from laymen (or even the say-so of fully qualified experts in the field - if you are not their paid fully-qualified experts in the field your word means less than nothing on the subject).

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