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 Wren    |
Posted - 2003.11.02 15:21:00 -
[1] This is for discussion on what sort of clan and tribal customs would survive in an urban and modern society. How does the actual social structure and government of the Minmatar traditionalist affect his or her daily life? Of course this is up to the individual, but for the sake of argument let us assume three things. The person has participated in the Voluval and has not received a banning or an exceptionally good mark. The person attends 80% of the tribal or clan social functions. The person is in a relatively large clan within the Sebeiestor or Brutor Tribes. I perceive a mostly eastern philosophy where clan leaders are born into their position, but not by their parents, instead, these positions are theirs by the act of the Voluval. The background information provided suggests that certain families frequently receive the same mark during the Voluval, but this is not guaranteed. This could mean someone outside of the usual leadership family could be the next to lead the Clan. Hmmm, I might as well explain my views on the way that the clan system works. Family û the smallest part of a Tribe. Clan û a collection of families who live together and provide certain services for the Tribe. Tribe û a collection of Clans that together provide all the services that one needs to survive. So, what we are looking at is not to far off from real life. If your father is a doctor, you might become a doctor. If your father is a mechanic, you might be a mechanic. However, if your mark received from the Voluval suggests that you should not be a mechanic and instead be a doctor, then the Tribe makes sure you receive the training to be a doctor. What I donÆt have a full grasp on is how ritualistic tribal gatherings would play a part. Is it just a form of recreation and entertainment mixed with religion sort of like football with a twist of baptism? Any suggestions or ideas here would be great. Thanks for any comments that might help round out the Minmatar people. -------------------------------------------------- |
 Wren Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan |
Posted - 2003.11.02 15:21:00 -
[2] This is for discussion on what sort of clan and tribal customs would survive in an urban and modern society. How does the actual social structure and government of the Minmatar traditionalist affect his or her daily life? Of course this is up to the individual, but for the sake of argument let us assume three things. The person has participated in the Voluval and has not received a banning or an exceptionally good mark. The person attends 80% of the tribal or clan social functions. The person is in a relatively large clan within the Sebeiestor or Brutor Tribes. I perceive a mostly eastern philosophy where clan leaders are born into their position, but not by their parents, instead, these positions are theirs by the act of the Voluval. The background information provided suggests that certain families frequently receive the same mark during the Voluval, but this is not guaranteed. This could mean someone outside of the usual leadership family could be the next to lead the Clan. Hmmm, I might as well explain my views on the way that the clan system works. Family û the smallest part of a Tribe. Clan û a collection of families who live together and provide certain services for the Tribe. Tribe û a collection of Clans that together provide all the services that one needs to survive. So, what we are looking at is not to far off from real life. If your father is a doctor, you might become a doctor. If your father is a mechanic, you might be a mechanic. However, if your mark received from the Voluval suggests that you should not be a mechanic and instead be a doctor, then the Tribe makes sure you receive the training to be a doctor. What I donÆt have a full grasp on is how ritualistic tribal gatherings would play a part. Is it just a form of recreation and entertainment mixed with religion sort of like football with a twist of baptism? Any suggestions or ideas here would be great. Thanks for any comments that might help round out the Minmatar people. ----------------------------------- Wren says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT!" |
 Wren |
Posted - 2003.11.04 11:09:00 -
[3] I guess no one cares. >=/ -------------------------------------------------- |
Wren Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan |
Posted - 2003.11.04 11:09:00 -
[4] I guess no one cares. >=/ ----------------------------------- Wren says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT!" |
 Vel Kyri |
Posted - 2003.11.04 13:31:00 -
[5] Edited by: Vel Kyri on 04/11/2003 13:31:44 Sorry - yes i think its good that you are thinking about these things :) I have to say, i like the increasing RP - storytelling happenings. I have the same problem with my Amarr discussion... <shrug> ----- |
 Vel Kyri Carebears need to die |
Posted - 2003.11.04 13:31:00 -
[6] Edited by: Vel Kyri on 04/11/2003 13:31:44 Sorry - yes i think its good that you are thinking about these things :) I have to say, i like the increasing RP - storytelling happenings. I have the same problem with my Amarr discussion... <shrug> |
 Wren |
Posted - 2003.11.04 14:15:00 -
[7] It's my job in Oracle to "kick up" the RP dust and get things moving. This job is a rotating position often shared by many Oracle people. We have a few very strong rp minded folks in Oracle, and one of the best is Sarkos, next is Jubedei and Dirtybones. Maybe they just don't know about this one. Hopefully, Darodem or other "old school" rpers will see it soon. -------------------------------------------------- |
Wren Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan |
Posted - 2003.11.04 14:15:00 -
[8] It's my job in Oracle to "kick up" the RP dust and get things moving. This job is a rotating position often shared by many Oracle people. We have a few very strong rp minded folks in Oracle, and one of the best is Sarkos, next is Jubedei and Dirtybones. Maybe they just don't know about this one. Hopefully, Darodem or other "old school" rpers will see it soon. ----------------------------------- Wren says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT!" |
Vel Kyri |
Posted - 2003.11.04 14:19:00 -
[9] Wren - and any other RPers - it would eb good if we could discuss things and get stories flowing out there again :) fleshing out the cultures of Eve ----- |
Vel Kyri Carebears need to die |
Posted - 2003.11.04 14:19:00 -
[10] Wren - and any other RPers - it would eb good if we could discuss things and get stories flowing out there again :) fleshing out the cultures of Eve |
Discorporation |
Posted - 2003.11.04 16:01:00 -
[11] Hm. Perhaps it would be good to look for documents on shamanism and neo-shamanisn, Wren. Perhaps they can help you further. (btw, Vel and wren, great initiatives) [Heterocephalus glaber] |
 Discorporation Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.11.04 16:01:00 -
[12] Hm. Perhaps it would be good to look for documents on shamanism and neo-shamanisn, Wren. Perhaps they can help you further. (btw, Vel and wren, great initiatives) |
Wren |
Posted - 2003.11.05 06:42:00 -
[13] I just requested: Contemporary Shamanism Urban Paganism Complete guide to Runes Jeet Kun Do from the library. I expect that Minmatar religion is as varied and eclectic as our world. -------------------------------------------------- |
Wren Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan |
Posted - 2003.11.05 06:42:00 -
[14] I just requested: Contemporary Shamanism Urban Paganism Complete guide to Runes Jeet Kun Do from the library. I expect that Minmatar religion is as varied and eclectic as our world. ----------------------------------- Wren says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT!" |
 Discorporation |
Posted - 2003.11.05 09:25:00 -
[15] Reading works by Phil Hine (and to a lesser extent Liber Null & Psychonaut) would give you an insight how shamanistic rituals might 'evolve' over time. It's all very fluffy and 'occult', but it could help ya loads. (Don't go to the library for that, get the .pdfs online) [Heterocephalus glaber] |
Discorporation Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.11.05 09:25:00 -
[16] Reading works by Phil Hine (and to a lesser extent Liber Null & Psychonaut) would give you an insight how shamanistic rituals might 'evolve' over time. It's all very fluffy and 'occult', but it could help ya loads. (Don't go to the library for that, get the .pdfs online) |
Shintoko Akahoshi |
Posted - 2003.11.07 08:06:00 -
[17] Interesting topic, Wren. The interesting thing about the Minmatar is that the importance of the tribe is strong enough that tribal structure was retained all the way into the space age (it always amuses me when some people compare the Minmatars to savages, since they had achieved space flight on a scale that allowed them to colonize other planets before they encountered the Amarr). That suggests two things to me: tribal culture is important to the average Minmatar (and not just window dressing); and it is flexible enough that the seven very different major tribes were able to band together in spite of retaining their distinct tribal identity and government. There isn't really a RL equivalent of this. Most tribal and clannish cultures haven't survived well into the modern age. You can argue, though, that this has more to do with historical imperialism than cultural failings. While there are attempts to reconstruct this culture, all the examples of it are fairly artificial still (since they are still being "reconstructed"). Likewise I think it's a mistake to look at modern shamanism and neo-paganism because they're both artificially constructed and artificially concentrated. A modern day shaman knows that they live in a culture that isn't based on their beliefs, and doesn't really hold with them either. This makes their particular shamanistic culture behave like an enclave within an alien culture (which it is), where the members take pains to establish their own cultural identity because it is such a fragile thing in the larger world. I'm not sure how things would work within a tribe. Some are probably very ritualistic with distinct cultures, while others would probably be more concerned with preserving their own identity with regards to tribal history. Good examples would be American Indian tribes before European contact, when they were very culturally diverse, and modern day Scottish clans (which are culturally similar and mostly concerned with clan history - you could say that Scottish history is based on remembering old betrayals and vendettas). Between the tribes, however, you'd have to have some sort of periodical social contact to bond the tribes together. If the different tribes have different religions, those religions would have to be (at least somewhat) tolerant with each other. If they were tolerant, then the gatherings could have religious overtones. If they weren't, then the gatherings would probably not have religious aspects at all. These gatherings would have had to exist long before the Minmatar and the Amarr met. They would have had to exist long before the Minmatar developed space flight. From the background material, it seems that the Minmatar are blessed with a homeworld both large enough and rich enough that the tribes are able to coexist without having to compete very strongly. This probably eases contact and interaction between the tribes, but they still would have to have something to make them willing to trust each other and work together. Late as it is as I write this, and incoherent as my mind is right now, the most likely thing I can think of that would facilitate that sort of friendship and trust would be large scale, frequent parties. There's no meaning to life when you cling only to common sense |
 Shintoko Akahoshi Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis |
Posted - 2003.11.07 08:06:00 -
[18] Interesting topic, Wren. The interesting thing about the Minmatar is that the importance of the tribe is strong enough that tribal structure was retained all the way into the space age (it always amuses me when some people compare the Minmatars to savages, since they had achieved space flight on a scale that allowed them to colonize other planets before they encountered the Amarr). That suggests two things to me: tribal culture is important to the average Minmatar (and not just window dressing); and it is flexible enough that the seven very different major tribes were able to band together in spite of retaining their distinct tribal identity and government. There isn't really a RL equivalent of this. Most tribal and clannish cultures haven't survived well into the modern age. You can argue, though, that this has more to do with historical imperialism than cultural failings. While there are attempts to reconstruct this culture, all the examples of it are fairly artificial still (since they are still being "reconstructed"). Likewise I think it's a mistake to look at modern shamanism and neo-paganism because they're both artificially constructed and artificially concentrated. A modern day shaman knows that they live in a culture that isn't based on their beliefs, and doesn't really hold with them either. This makes their particular shamanistic culture behave like an enclave within an alien culture (which it is), where the members take pains to establish their own cultural identity because it is such a fragile thing in the larger world. I'm not sure how things would work within a tribe. Some are probably very ritualistic with distinct cultures, while others would probably be more concerned with preserving their own identity with regards to tribal history. Good examples would be American Indian tribes before European contact, when they were very culturally diverse, and modern day Scottish clans (which are culturally similar and mostly concerned with clan history - you could say that Scottish history is based on remembering old betrayals and vendettas). Between the tribes, however, you'd have to have some sort of periodical social contact to bond the tribes together. If the different tribes have different religions, those religions would have to be (at least somewhat) tolerant with each other. If they were tolerant, then the gatherings could have religious overtones. If they weren't, then the gatherings would probably not have religious aspects at all. These gatherings would have had to exist long before the Minmatar and the Amarr met. They would have had to exist long before the Minmatar developed space flight. From the background material, it seems that the Minmatar are blessed with a homeworld both large enough and rich enough that the tribes are able to coexist without having to compete very strongly. This probably eases contact and interaction between the tribes, but they still would have to have something to make them willing to trust each other and work together. Late as it is as I write this, and incoherent as my mind is right now, the most likely thing I can think of that would facilitate that sort of friendship and trust would be large scale, frequent parties. Omerta Syndicate Biotechnical Research |
Hodokie Seek |
Posted - 2003.11.07 19:07:00 -
[19] This may be a little out of place here or possibly misread the post, but maybe the Mouslim society would be the closest example of what the Minmatar society may be like. These are modern cultures yet entrenched in deep religous and trible customs. Like I said, not sure if I read the post right or not. On the RP aspect, I sure with I met more RP'ers in game, really kind of miss that. __________________________________________
|
 Hodokie Seek Gallente Old Farts Drinking Club |
Posted - 2003.11.07 19:07:00 -
[20] This may be a little out of place here or possibly misread the post, but maybe the Mouslim society would be the closest example of what the Minmatar society may be like. These are modern cultures yet entrenched in deep religous and trible customs. Like I said, not sure if I read the post right or not. On the RP aspect, I sure with I met more RP'ers in game, really kind of miss that. __________________________________________
|
Dar Torn |
Posted - 2003.11.07 23:47:00 -
[21] I view the Minmatar race to be like the Native Americans. I think it fits closely to want you see aswell, Wren. I also like the idea of a hunt to prove manhood or membership in our case. I would love to start Tourneys for minmatar to fight in. My only wall is dong it in high sec space. |
 Dar Torn Minmatar Sebiestor tribe |
Posted - 2003.11.07 23:47:00 -
[22] I view the Minmatar race to be like the Native Americans. I think it fits closely to want you see aswell, Wren. I also like the idea of a hunt to prove manhood or membership in our case. I would love to start Tourneys for minmatar to fight in. My only wall is dong it in high sec space. |
 Hodokie Seek |
Posted - 2003.11.08 03:16:00 -
[23] Think I am missing somthing, I still do not see how the religous aspect of the culture of the Native American parallels the Native American culture. Though I am Intaki, I am interested in the comparison. __________________________________________
|
Hodokie Seek Gallente Old Farts Drinking Club |
Posted - 2003.11.08 03:16:00 -
[24] Think I am missing somthing, I still do not see how the religous aspect of the culture of the Native American parallels the Native American culture. Though I am Intaki, I am interested in the comparison. __________________________________________
|
 Shintoko Akahoshi |
Posted - 2003.11.08 07:29:00 -
[25] I think it's a mistake to over-generalize Minmatar culture that way, Dar. I don't think that the various tribes have similar rituals or religions. I don't think that they have blended that way. Look at the description of the tribes, and their appearances. It's obvious that there isn't a lot of interbreeding going on, and their tribal cultures are also pretty distinct. Instead of trying to find singular cultures or culture-types and assigning them to all Minmatar, why not try and come up with unique cultures for each tribe. Why not make them as different as Quilleute Indians are from Scots. Look at how different two cultures can be that are nestled right next to each other. Sure the Spanish and the Basque share some aspects of culture, just as the major Minmatar tribes share things like the Voluval. What makes them (Spanish and Basque) interesting is how many ways the cultures differ from one another. Minmatar tribes should be the same. After all, people have lived on Pator for millennia developing their own cultures. Minmatars have kept their tribal distinction through a long and tumultuous modern period. They're practically crying out to be made distinct. There's no meaning to life when you cling only to common sense |
Shintoko Akahoshi Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis |
Posted - 2003.11.08 07:29:00 -
[26] I think it's a mistake to over-generalize Minmatar culture that way, Dar. I don't think that the various tribes have similar rituals or religions. I don't think that they have blended that way. Look at the description of the tribes, and their appearances. It's obvious that there isn't a lot of interbreeding going on, and their tribal cultures are also pretty distinct. Instead of trying to find singular cultures or culture-types and assigning them to all Minmatar, why not try and come up with unique cultures for each tribe. Why not make them as different as Quilleute Indians are from Scots. Look at how different two cultures can be that are nestled right next to each other. Sure the Spanish and the Basque share some aspects of culture, just as the major Minmatar tribes share things like the Voluval. What makes them (Spanish and Basque) interesting is how many ways the cultures differ from one another. Minmatar tribes should be the same. After all, people have lived on Pator for millennia developing their own cultures. Minmatars have kept their tribal distinction through a long and tumultuous modern period. They're practically crying out to be made distinct. Omerta Syndicate Biotechnical Research |
Wren |
Posted - 2003.11.08 20:32:00 -
[27] Okay, thanks for the input all. Here is what I have so far. Shamanism is using trances to effect the spiritual world, or to investigate events in your personal life, or to find stuff out that might help or prevent danger for your tribe/clan. The use of hallucinogenic drugs may or may not be involved, but most shamans use and prescribe the drugs to the individuals in a ritualistic ceremony. This kind of practice could be as varied as the drugs involved, from simple, peaceful rituals to vicious and malignant. Well, when I read up on runes I will add my findings, but eventually, we just have to make a break and make the customs and religions EVE-like. -------------------------------------------------- |
Wren Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan |
Posted - 2003.11.08 20:32:00 -
[28] Okay, thanks for the input all. Here is what I have so far. Shamanism is using trances to effect the spiritual world, or to investigate events in your personal life, or to find stuff out that might help or prevent danger for your tribe/clan. The use of hallucinogenic drugs may or may not be involved, but most shamans use and prescribe the drugs to the individuals in a ritualistic ceremony. This kind of practice could be as varied as the drugs involved, from simple, peaceful rituals to vicious and malignant. Well, when I read up on runes I will add my findings, but eventually, we just have to make a break and make the customs and religions EVE-like. ----------------------------------- Wren says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT!" |
 Vel Kyri |
Posted - 2003.11.09 10:06:00 -
[29] I would tend to say that the path you are going is a good one. Eve seems to be "Through the looking glass" versions of today's world. take things from known cultures that seem close to what you want, and then mangle them to make them unique in Eve. If there is some familiarity then it becomes easier to roleplay and understand - build from what is known/familiar then play with it :) best of luck! ----- |
Vel Kyri Carebears need to die |
Posted - 2003.11.09 10:06:00 -
[30] I would tend to say that the path you are going is a good one. Eve seems to be "Through the looking glass" versions of today's world. take things from known cultures that seem close to what you want, and then mangle them to make them unique in Eve. If there is some familiarity then it becomes easier to roleplay and understand - build from what is known/familiar then play with it :) best of luck! |
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