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Hitpoint boost and artilleries

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:17:00 - [61] Originally by: Anaris You could ask yourself if this is an alt ? I did, but I dont know who's alts are who's. Originally by: Anaris And yes i was in 9cg... and really that was something extraordinary, a 1 in a million with fleet fights so quit your whining. If you were in 9cg you know that it does happen. While it might not happen all the time, having that extra cap is nothing to be laughed at, cap is ALWAYS useful. Originally by: Anaris Besides you have no ammo to worry about which is also useful in it's own context. I fly gallente only, I know how much I'd love to have no ammo
TheDarkForce	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:17:00 - [62] Edited by: TheDarkForce on 23/10/2006 13:18:25 Not to cast the need for an amarr boost aside but minmatar has needed some love for a lot longer atleast 2 years, so please dont squash our love and maybe after 2 years amarr will get some love aswell also put the change on the testy see how it goes with the 5% then maybe give 7% if it seams to need it. just my 2 isk
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:19:00 - [63] Originally by: Tuxford Where do you get your graphs from? Are you comparing with shortest range t1 ammo because the graph does not look as errm nice with that. There is the slight possibility that my program might be off. I'll have a talk with my guy when he wakes up. Naughty Boy's Damage Spreadsheet Link We use that. It's damned awesome. A 7% DPS boost put 1400s behind 425mm rails before factoring in reloads even, and we still have worse tracking and range. It puts us more in line with a reasonable DPS. The problem is, though, that nowadays artillery are becomign too similar in effect to other guns and this is removing diversity. I agree that nerfing alpha strike is good, but artilleries' other 'difference points' - no cap use, lower damage in return - aren't different enough to keep it interesting. I think you really need to highlight the 'throwing shells over huge ranges' aspect of artillery by increasing falloff and lowering optimal. One of the major problems with our DPS is that fighting in falloff punishes us a lot, and given that we still have lower range with falloff than weapons such as railguns it's a major issue. As well as a straight DPS increase, and to keep things different (more than anything else I'd hate to see artillery becoming just another type of gun with different numbers but no different tactics), I seriously think a nerf of optimal and large increase in falloff for artillery is neccessary, together with a falloff effecting lowslot module. Artillery has a stupidly poor tracking and even with a buff will have less DPS than everything else, but for flavour, it really should have the longest range as well as being the least accurate. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:22:00 - [64] Just a curious question, I have decided not to get involved in this "Boost-Amarr" campaigh - but: Do you factor in that when ammo runs out for Blasters/rails, Missiles, Auotcannons/martillery you have to wait 10 seconds to reload? 10 seconds while the amarr ship just sits and blasts and blasts away? 10 seconds gets 20 seconds after a while - then 30. 30 seconds is a long time to sit and tank while you get pummeled by tachyon lasers all the time... just a curious question.. _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:50:00 - [65] Why does your graph has the megathron +25% bonus but not the tempest +25% bonus in it??? It's stupid at best. Remake the graph with the +25% arty bonus from tempest. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:07:00 - [66] Originally by: dalman Why does your graph has the megathron +25% bonus but not the tempest +25% bonus in it??? It's stupid at best. Remake the graph with the +25% arty bonus from tempest. He's taking standard ship bonuses into account. Howitzers are nearly guaranteed to be fit on ships with 5% rate of fire, while all Gallente ships have 5% damage bonus. However, a 1400mm is not guaranteed to be fit on a Tempest. Oh, and his graph is per turret, not per ship. (Assumption: you are commenting Tuxford's OP) - What am I listening to?
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:09:00 - [67] Thank you tux.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Anaris And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... Well, maybe you never see it happen but when a few dictors trap an enemy fleet it will require you to sit there for quite a while pounding everything inside the bubbles to dust... -- .sig apathy ftw
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:25:00 - [69] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Anaris And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... Well, maybe you never see it happen but when a few dictors trap an enemy fleet it will require you to sit there for quite a while pounding everything inside the bubbles to dust... If the enemy has any common sense, they will have speed mods on their fleet setups and will MWD out of the bubble as fast as possible. If they're really smart, their megathrons and scorps will be filling their 1-2 spare high slots with smartbombs to pop the interdictor bubbles (one large smartbomb = dead bubble). Fighting nubs is no justification for game balance :P _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:26:00 - [70] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. Hey rocket scientist the post is about artys not AC ,might try to read it some times. Originally by: Exiled One First. HP Boost and Amarr...WHERE????? Pathetic. Hey slaver that is in noob corp learn to walk first ,then come here . Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: AsfALT The "no cap" is good for autos but kind of useless for artys cose if u fit largest artys u can't fit any cap consuming tank, so u have lots of cap and nothing to do with it... I think that's tuxford's point. No good for Arty? come back when you fly a megathron or a geddon in fleets and you run out of cap after firing for a couple of minutes If you manage to survive that long ,the gang will not need ya anyway. Originally by: Elve Sorrow Righto, contstructive: I agree with the damage boost, to cover the Alpha strike loss of the Arties. Now... Does this apply to all Arties, just the 1400mm, just the large ones? (And what about XL?) Are you considering to lower the RoF of arties to make up for their increased DPS? Because, not alot of the Minmatar crowd minded the low DPS. They accepted it as one of the disadvantages. Regarding the cap, i am frankly stunned, but i will attempt to explain why i feel this IS a major advantage. I agree that the lack of cap usage doesnt seem much of an advantage when you look at it from the tank perspective. On the other hand, look at it from the Amarr/Gallente perspective. We run out of cap. And this is exactly where the advantage lies. For our firing to be constant, we have to fit 1-2 Cap Relays, which gives the Minnies 1-2 extra slots to fit Damage Mods/Tracking stuff, or whatever they fancy really. Yes please lower the rof we need those arties to shoot faster.

Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:28:00 - [71] RoF = Rate of Fire Lower RoF = Lower Rate of Fire = Slower Firing. Idiot. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:32:00 - [72] Originally by: Elve Sorrow RoF = Rate of Fire Lower RoF = Lower Rate of Fire = Slower Firing. Idiot. Come on now, lower could also refer to the value of the number. 3 is lower than 4 for example. It would be much easier if we refered to it as a "faster rate of fire" and a "slower rate of fire" as that implies we are talking about the result, not the variable. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:33:00 - [73] As Testy said, Naughty Boys spreadsheet is one of the most impressive pieces of Excel work that I have seen in a long while. It can model accurately almost any situation that you would like to examine. The community owes NB a lot for producing it for us. If we mount one turret on a ship and calc damage it looks pretty similar to what you have. I have included all T1 ammo so we can see how the damage changes over the entire range of ammo. I find this more enlightening than 1 ammo in general as it lets us see how they perform across the entire range. 1 mounted weapon on BS with T1 ammo I can see the thought process on why you have tried to compare them in such a fashion. If the turrets are relatively balanced then the different "racial flavor" can come from the ship mounting that specific weapon. Now let's mount the same weapons with a full large weapon loadout. I will include the Rokh in this chart since it's coming into play soonÖ. BS sniping with a full load of long range weapons, T1 ammo. Includes the Rokh. In this analysis we see the Tempest is at the bottom DPS wise at the begining since emp is slightly lower damage. As the range expands we see it pulling ahead of the Laser weapons, but still fall behind Rails on a mega and WAY behind the Rokh. While the Tempest DPS should definitely be a bit lower, I would say that 5% is a must, and even 7% would not be out of line by any stretch of the imagination. However, any DPS increase should inculde etching on the Howie barrel that says "My Amarr Master made my ship better than Matari ductape". Gold inlay would look best. Nyxus 1 last graph with T2 ammo I like to call: Why everyone will be using the Rokh in fleets. Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:35:00 - [74] Of note, regarding the last graph from Nyxus: That blue line is all horizontal when you include Tracking Enhancers on the ships. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:35:00 - [75] Are you talking about boosting the guns or the ammo? --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:40:00 - [76] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Of note, regarding the last graph from Nyxus: That blue line is all horizontal when you include Tracking Enhancers on the ships. /agrees. While the other ships can boost to around 200 or 215km optimal with Tracking mods, the Rokh is doing max damage across the entire range of targeting (250km). Of course, if we could warp to any ship that was 150km or farther away (like you can gangmates or objects) I wouldn't mind that massive DPS difference the Rokh gets at all. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:40:00 - [77] Dearest Tuxford, The main issue with arties, imo, is not thier DPS. Thats low, its always been low, we know that. The main problem is thier usefullness in gang warfare. The only reason to use arties before these changes was the alpha strike. The burst damage the sniper could do as the rest of the gang was getting in combat range and tackling the target. The reason for this was the slow rof, and the fact that you would only get one or two rounds fired. The problem with just increase DPS and not looking at burst damage is you eliminate a style of play from the game. You eliminate the Alphastrike placement of snipers, and turn them more into big AC boats that are dependant on keeping a target stationary for long periods of time in order to DPS the target down over time. This doesnt work for arty users because our tracking sucks, and our range requires us to be out of web/scram distance. I would be interested if you ran "real world" tests and graphed the damage for all the guns. For example setup a sniper at range of a gate, and have your target orbiting a smaller ship and graph that DPS over time, as that would be more inductive and not so linear. You would see the alpha of arty being the most important factor involved. 1400mm II user on 3 accounts, Popsikle __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:43:00 - [78] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 23/10/2006 14:43:11 Fitted Sniper Graph So, we have: Tempest, 2x bonus towards DPS Mega, 1x bonus towards DPS Geddon, 1x Bonus towards DPS It takes 2x bonus's on a pest to get near to the damage of a Mega. What the graph doesn't show is the tracking difference which is large. There is the theory of tracking having something to do with wreakings (depends if you believe it or not). So: Mega has slightly better DPS, more range, more tracking for cap use. Tempest has lowest DPS, lowest range for top tiers, lowest tracking, large alpha strike and no cap use. Geddon has largest DPS, good tracking (can't get numbers compared to a Mega with rails atm) for high cap use. Looking at that graph a Geddon with Megabeams, a Tempest with 1400mm's and a Mega with 425mm's are comparable. Hence I belive Tach's are a tier above those, it can reach the range of a Mega with 425mm's, much more DPS and still have decent tracking (better than 1400mm's. With regards to fitting. A pest has double figure PG left after fitting its guns, so you need an RCU to fit anything in the other high slots or to plate/expander it, so basically leaving you in "gank" format. A Geddon does have to use one RCU to fit its final gun, but this leaves it with 1 high (offline rep or something ect) and enough pg to plate itself while still getting the sensor booster/tracking enhances/heat sinks on. If it wanted to go to "gank" format and not use any defence in the forms of plates it could fit a second RCU and fit Tach's and again still get its sensor booster/tracking enhances/heat sinks on, outranging, out dps'ing, and out tracking 1400mm's of which a Tempest can not improve upon cos it already is using its max tier weapons. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:47:00 - [79] Alpha strike in terms of absolute hit points is bad, since it drastically shortens combat if it is to be effective. An option to make alpha strikes valuable is if something happened to a ship that sustain massive hits. This is just theorizing, but if an alpha strike is reduced to where it's no longer an issue whether you survive it or not, but a negative effect is incurred on the ship if you sustain a heavy hit, alpha strikes will still be valuable. This is a theory of how it's easier to sustain 100 strength 10 hits than it is to sustain 10 strength 100 hits. The intuitive thought is damage leaking, of course, but this would require a rather large boost to hull hit points. - What am I listening to?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:48:00 - [80] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Geddon has largest DPS, good tracking (can't get numbers compared to a Mega with rails atm) for high cap use. The Geddon has better tracking. - What am I listening to?

Mallick	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:49:00 - [81] So the excel cheet does not take the Tempest 25% bonus into account? And really, 1400mm IS mostly used on a Tempest, not really on the Typhoon... Maybe we should compare 425mm Railguns on Caldari ships instead. 425mm Railguns SUCKS BOOST DMG OUTPUT ASAP STAT NOW!
Kookman Minmatar TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:49:00 - [82] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. ARTILLERIES!!!!! Its a pretty nice advantage for autocannons though. You been in any fleet fights lately Tux?
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:50:00 - [83] Originally by: Ithildin Alpha strike in terms of absolute hit points is bad, since it drastically shortens combat if it is to be effective. An option to make alpha strikes valuable is if something happened to a ship that sustain massive hits. This is just theorizing, but if an alpha strike is reduced to where it's no longer an issue whether you survive it or not, but a negative effect is incurred on the ship if you sustain a heavy hit, alpha strikes will still be valuable. This is a theory of how it's easier to sustain 100 strength 10 hits than it is to sustain 10 strength 100 hits. The intuitive thought is damage leaking, of course, but this would require a rather large boost to hull hit points. Maybe some effect on subsystem targeting? I like it, actually. OMGMYWARPDRIVESHUTDOWN! Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Ishana Minmatar Neo Knight Errant	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:58:00 - [84] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Ithildin Alpha strike in terms of absolute hit points is bad, since it drastically shortens combat if it is to be effective. An option to make alpha strikes valuable is if something happened to a ship that sustain massive hits. This is just theorizing, but if an alpha strike is reduced to where it's no longer an issue whether you survive it or not, but a negative effect is incurred on the ship if you sustain a heavy hit, alpha strikes will still be valuable. This is a theory of how it's easier to sustain 100 strength 10 hits than it is to sustain 10 strength 100 hits. The intuitive thought is damage leaking, of course, but this would require a rather large boost to hull hit points. Maybe some effect on subsystem targeting? I like it, actually. OMGMYWARPDRIVESHUTDOWN! -Make the ship getting hit by more then X% of it's hp's revert to 0 m/s speed for a few seconds. -Or just make a ship getting hit take a % penalty to it's speed across the board. This would actually be a pretty good reprecentation of what would happen to a ship in space getting hit by a high speed projectile. It would reduce the need for webbers when using howies aswell ^^ _________________________________________________________
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:00:00 - [85] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Ithildin Alpha strike in terms of absolute hit points is bad, since it drastically shortens combat if it is to be effective. An option to make alpha strikes valuable is if something happened to a ship that sustain massive hits. This is just theorizing, but if an alpha strike is reduced to where it's no longer an issue whether you survive it or not, but a negative effect is incurred on the ship if you sustain a heavy hit, alpha strikes will still be valuable. This is a theory of how it's easier to sustain 100 strength 10 hits than it is to sustain 10 strength 100 hits. The intuitive thought is damage leaking, of course, but this would require a rather large boost to hull hit points. Maybe some effect on subsystem targeting? I like it, actually. OMGMYWARPDRIVESHUTDOWN! I remember someones (not mentioning names) topic about "OMG MISSILES WARP SCRAMBLED ME BY KNOCKED ME OF MY ALIGNED WARP!!!".... I'd laugh so hard if arty could actual do that. Please please please Tux give me a laugh. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Danii CryoTech	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:09:00 - [86] Originally by: Anaris As an artillery user myself i'm hapy with this solution... And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... I fly all races ships Just supposing some hypothetical situation where all ship hitpoints were boosted by, I don't know, 50%? Would that make the battles last longer, and cap use of weapons become a factor?
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:23:00 - [87] Originally by: Elve Sorrow RoF = Rate of Fire Lower RoF = Lower Rate of Fire = Slower Firing. Idiot. Indeed i'am . I usually try to put things in my mother language.And after i tried to troll the trolls of tuxford i made a mistake :). Why so bitter elve?
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:25:00 - [88] Originally by: Pesadel0 Why so bitter elve? 1) He joined Scrapheap Challenge and we rubbed off on him (not literally, of course) 2) He's Amarr and it's in the blood :P Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:33:00 - [89] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 23/10/2006 15:35:07 Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 23/10/2006 15:34:40 secondary 'leakage' effects from ammo that would act like racial ewar would be great. Hybrid charges with short range would lower scan resolution in small amounts. Hybrid charges with long range would lower your ships sensor strength. Lasers would lower turret tracking at all ranges Projectile charges would light you up like a x-mas tree and increase your signature radius. Tech 2 ammo would increase the effects. T2 Effects would be hard capped at 15% of the best module that would create such an effect while t1 would be hard capped at 7.5%. T2 ammo damage and range would not change over its t1 equivelents. As ranges vary through the tech 1 ammo so would the effects. Finally make the Minmatar exp./kin based for heavens sake and get rid of the rainbow crap. Now for minmatar weapons with the build in Target Painting our DPS might not be so great but as time goes by so would our ability to hit the bloody target. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:36:00 - [90] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Pesadel0 Why so bitter elve? 1) He joined Scrapheap Challenge and we rubbed off on him (not literally, of course) 2) He's Amarr and it's in the blood :P Nah, Elve is irate now becuase he trained Matari after the EAN problems with Amarr instead of training Caldari. Thank god Sarmauls Khanid MK2 concepts convinced me to train missiles and Caldari half a year ago. Otherwise I would likely be extremely irate as well. I really like the idea that if alpha strike of arties is reduced in effectiveness a slight speed adjustment when getting hit would be a good idea, but may be slightly overpowered (look ma, I don't need no stinking scramblers!). Of course upping the rof and raising the damage mod as Elve suggested would seem to work fine to me as well. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants



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