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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Granth Roden	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:55:00 - [121] Tuxford - you and everybody else are forgetting the basics: you are not dealing with just one gun. This is about weapons platforms and the weapons in them. A few graphics will tell you nothing. Choose a viable setup for each BS, and a different one for combat or sniping. You're a dev, get a GM to grab some setups from gate camps. Again, guns MUST FIT. All the guns must be accounted for - and if the normal build has a torpedo then that goes in. Otherwise you're discussing nothing but an abstract. Why don't you model Thoraxes (and Mallers too) fitted with small (not med) T2 guns and high-end armor? Why do people use them? Is it not strange that it can be deadlier to fit small guns that do not get the bonii than to use the regular guns? This game is great and has excellent features, but there's some holes. A great part of the problem is that its not about races - its about initial setups that became outdated or unbalanced as other details changed. People go emotional about that and forget the simple truth: somebody set this up at the beginning and its been changed and updated and re-balanced, trying to maintain a "personality". Lets have a real discussion here, he?
Lucian Alucard Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:22:00 - [122] When I can snipe in my Apoc and Geddon again and not cry when I see the damage done to armor which is usually tanked to heck these days with Enan IIs and Damage Coontrol mods I will stop stalking the devs.
Rift Scorn Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:32:00 - [123] Originally by: Lucian Alucard When I can snipe in my Apoc and Geddon again and not cry when I see the damage done to armor which is usually tanked to heck these days with Enan IIs and Damage Coontrol mods I will stop stalking the devs. I see what you're getting at, but likewise i wouldn't like to see a return to days when you see fleets of gankageddons that cut through anything like butter. That was equally imbalanced on the other way. I have an amarr character training atm, and desperatley want the abaddon to be up there with the other race ships, and look forward to using it in fleet/gangs but i think returning the 'gank' style geddon (and potentially gank abaddon set-ups) to a solopwnmobile isn't the way to go, it was nerf batted for a reason. As has already been said though, i'll await the changed before i draw any premature conclusions. That just would not be sensible. Your friendly clone activation expert, free of service to the eve community since '03
Lucian Alucard Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:04:00 - [124] Edited by: Lucian Alucard on 23/10/2006 22:07:36 Originally by: Rift Scorn Originally by: Lucian Alucard When I can snipe in my Apoc and Geddon again and not cry when I see the damage done to armor which is usually tanked to heck these days with Enan IIs and Damage Coontrol mods I will stop stalking the devs. I see what you're getting at, but likewise i wouldn't like to see a return to days when you see fleets of gankageddons that cut through anything like butter. That was equally imbalanced on the other way. I have an amarr character training atm, and desperatley want the abaddon to be up there with the other race ships, and look forward to using it in fleet/gangs but i think returning the 'gank' style geddon (and potentially gank abaddon set-ups) to a solopwnmobile isn't the way to go, it was nerf batted for a reason. As has already been said though, i'll await the changed before i draw any premature conclusions. That just would not be sensible. I aggree, I don't want to see it go to THAT extreme of a boost but you do have to admit in a fleet action the Apocs and Geddons do a damn fine job at slicing through even a Cap ships sheilds nicely but once you get to armor there is ALOT left to be desired. As I have said in other threads making Raidios do 8 Em and 12 Therm Damage would help and then leave Aurora L alone. Tachs do need more Alpha strike even with the Abaddon on the way and the cap issuse still persists. So the bonus needs to be uped what exact number it should be upped by I don't have a clue. Amar bs need more grid and CPU to be on par up close with a Meg since theres no way a geddon can fit 7 Mega Pulse IIs and Tank and still do enough damage to break a Cap Injected Megs tank. Then even if it could do that,the cap burn would be horrid as is,to be on compairison to the Meg you would need need to do the following, - Use less cap then currently - Fit Mega Pulse II and at least a 4 mod tank - Fit a full rack of Tachyon IIs, with oly ONE Reactor Control Unit - Reverse the damage spread from favoring Em to favoring Therm on the Tech One level whilst still doing both types of damage Measuring raw damage dealt and not factoring in resistances seems in my mind an issuse in the case of the Amar. Minmatar have for now great Alpha and a firm spot in a fleet fight but Amar have a more tenuous position,this should be fixed.
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:37:00 - [125] I only have one question. If 425's do the same damage as tachyons, can we reduce the grid and cap use on tachyons to match that of 425's? Thanks.
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:40:00 - [126] I wish there was some way to make high alpha significant for popping ships between rep cycles. That's the main purpose of burst damage in every other game I can think of, killing stuff before it gets healed. It'd require a sickening amount of changes and reworks though. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:55:00 - [127] The artillery balance Tux appears to be aiming at is this: in short fights, the Artillery will dominate due to high initial damage over time. If the opponent can drag a fight out long enough though, the artillery will begin to lose ground to other guns. This makes the artilleries actual DPS in a fight highly dependent upon the length of the fight and makes most dps calculations deceptive (which is why Tux included the 60 second and 120 second damage graphs).
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:57:00 - [128] Originally by: Kldraina The artillery balance Tux appears to be aiming at is this: in short fights, the Artillery will dominate due to high initial damage over time. If the opponent can drag a fight out long enough though, the artillery will begin to lose ground to other guns. This makes the artilleries actual DPS in a fight highly dependent upon the length of the fight and makes most dps calculations deceptive (which is why Tux included the 60 second and 120 second damage graphs). Artillery at short range.. noone with their head straight will get close with artilery due to its non existant tracking.
Copine Callmeknau The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:27:00 - [129] This is just silly, boosting Artillery still leaves Amarr and AC's badly nerfed. Don't put the HP boost in Tux, nobody wants it. -- Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you where tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:16:00 - [130] Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:42:00 - [131] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. By the looks of the graph looks like everything is just fine. Given that the tachs are tier 3 guns and are supposed to be doing more dps. And 1400s DPS isn't that much off of 425s. At least the lot of you make me laugh. Because I said so...
H Zub Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.10.24 01:01:00 - [132] More hitpoints and far longer fights. Have you thought about small gangs and solo pvp? The hit point changes will mean death to smaller pvp groups. Wich is a shame if you ask me. Not to mention all the problems with lag, whats going to happend with more and larger blobs (to be able to finish off targets)? I will wait and see, but if it means you need to be in a blob to kill a battleship or 2. Then I am out for good. o/ The Hunter Hypnotized
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:17:00 - [133] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/10/2006 02:20:20 Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. My Graph. Don't use graphs you haven't made and don't know what they show/might be wrong with them. I'll give you a hint what that graph is to show... look at name. Hence I used Normalized mode as the comparisons being made didn't have to be accurate as the difference was quite large. Reason I haven't posted it, is due to that Normalized setting in flight time which does something stange (while it helps level out missiles in the graphs) to reloads/dot calcs and increases them to try and remove the "stairs" look when using missiles ect. Where that graph you linked to shows 3% difference it is actually, 9% different in DOT terms with equal ammo. If we were to look at EMP vs AM that difference would become 16% less DOT. Thats with idea conditions, and assumming optimal and no tracking issues. So in the best case senario for a Pest using Arty is that it has the lowest DOT of between 9% and 16%. Thats before falloff is taken into account or that with the lower tracking there is a period of a Tempest using arty missing when other ships can still hit. ps. I reserve right to change my numbers when I wake up in the morning.... eyes are closing.... zzzzzzz ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
CaperPuts	Posted - 2006.10.24 04:07:00 - [134] I... I love you, Tuxford. begins training for T2 artillery again And thank you for looking into Amarr as well.
Ephemeron Crimson Crusaders Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.24 04:30:00 - [135] I think it's a big mistake to try analyze the weapons using their stock t1 variants and 0% range ammo. Who uses that crap? only noobs. Are we trying to balance the game for the noobs? The game should be balanced for the vets, for the end game. Because you may achieve some good balance for the noobs but in the process make certain vets way overpowered, or underpowered, and they'd totally pwn all your noobs that you try to balance the game for. All graphs should use t2 weapons and t2 ammo! And level 5 skills should be assumed.
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 05:33:00 - [136] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. lol. You've been on an anti arty/ac soapbox for 3 years now. You're choice of ships at this point in time offers you a multitude of options. 1v1.. fleet.. gank.. and excels at all of them. Only Raynor has done a better job of protecting his precious.... but not by much tbh. I know you don't "GET" it, and will refuse to, but sitting at range, with 6 weapons doing mediocre damage after 60sec with a boatload of cap you can't use anyway, and two empty highslots is not an advantage. It never has been. It never will be. Minnie are flawed at their very concept, and Tux/ccp won't ever address that so they instead try to relive the symptoms of their problems as opposed to the core of their problems... as the latter would cause reblalancing on a much larger scale. Can't wait for people to figure out ac pest if borked as well now losing it's 1 and only advantage.. 1 multi heh. Shouldn't you be in yet another thread making sure people know CCP fixed ECM because of you? Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.10.24 05:50:00 - [137] Edited by: Kldraina on 24/10/2006 05:54:59 Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon Artillery at short range.. noone with their head straight will get close with artilery due to its non existant tracking. I was talking about time, not range. The minmatar concept can work, it just requires a lot of attention to maintain. Basically the concept is this: Minmatar will do more damage than other races in fights of less than __ seconds. Between __ and __ seconds, they are about equal, and in fights longer than __ seconds, they deal less damage. The trick, is to balance out the numbers, such that most fights are in the Equal Damage range.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 06:03:00 - [138] Originally by: ProphetGuru Can't wait for people to figure out ac pest if borked as well now losing it's 1 and only advantage.. 1 multi heh. Wont matter anyway since the Hyperion will most likely have the same amount of meds as the Tempest, and with its higher damage output it will likely wipe the floor with the Tempest. Im not sure about minmatar being flawed, but I think the minmatar battleships needs a boost since most fights take place at close range, and they cant use their speed advantage to fight gallente at 30 km without faction warp disruptors. Actually I would like tech 2 warp disruptors (30 km) in the game SoonÖ to allow minmatar to get a chance to fight the gallente blasterboats at a range they pick themselfs. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 06:38:00 - [139] I dont mind increasing hp for longer fights, however 50% increase is to much. Also i think hardeners and plates are going to be increased as well. That makes things even worse. I think destroyers/dictors should get an increase in hp by 50%. BC/command ships should get an agility bonus (which they are) and af should get a afterburner bonus to make them more useful for larger engagments.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 06:53:00 - [140] Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 06:53:47 Originally by: ProphetGuru Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. lol. You've been on an anti arty/ac soapbox for 3 years now. You're choice of ships at this point in time offers you a multitude of options. 1v1.. fleet.. gank.. and excels at all of them. Only Raynor has done a better job of protecting his precious.... but not by much tbh. I know you don't "GET" it, and will refuse to, but sitting at range, with 6 weapons doing mediocre damage after 60sec with a boatload of cap you can't use anyway, and two empty highslots is not an advantage. It never has been. It never will be. Minnie are flawed at their very concept, and Tux/ccp won't ever address that so they instead try to relive the symptoms of their problems as opposed to the core of their problems... as the latter would cause reblalancing on a much larger scale. Can't wait for people to figure out ac pest if borked as well now losing it's 1 and only advantage.. 1 multi heh. Shouldn't you be in yet another thread making sure people know CCP fixed ECM because of you? 6.9/(23.63.75)6 = 2.336 3.3/9.56*7 = 2.416 2.416/2.336 = 1.034 How exactly is it that a megathron doesn't do 3% more DPS than a tempest? Yes, I crossposted in the ECM thread, as I posted in the one here before noticing the 'exact same thread' in general discussion. Anything wrong with that? And I said I was happy with it as it was quite in line with my suggestions. Anything wrong with that? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Juan Andalusian TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 07:08:00 - [141] Originally by: ProphetGuru Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. lol. You've been on an anti arty/ac soapbox for 3 years now. You're choice of ships at this point in time offers you a multitude of options. 1v1.. fleet.. gank.. and excels at all of them. Only Raynor has done a better job of protecting his precious.... but not by much tbh. I know you don't "GET" it, and will refuse to, but sitting at range, with 6 weapons doing mediocre damage after 60sec with a boatload of cap you can't use anyway, and two empty highslots is not an advantage. It never has been. It never will be. Minnie are flawed at their very concept, and Tux/ccp won't ever address that so they instead try to relive the symptoms of their problems as opposed to the core of their problems... as the latter would cause reblalancing on a much larger scale. Can't wait for people to figure out ac pest if borked as well now losing it's 1 and only advantage.. 1 multi heh. Shouldn't you be in yet another thread making sure people know CCP fixed ECM because of you? You are wrong PG. Pain is meant to be felt
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.24 07:47:00 - [142] The Alpha-Strike of Artillerys is overrated a bit imho, of course you deal the damage a Megathron needs 30 seconds for in the first volley, but in the end some beliebe the killing speed in fleetbattles is slower, since primarys get locked by so many ships, they pop immediately no matter how you look at it. So in the long-term, the alpha-strike of artillery is no real advantage, since when the target is dead, the unactivated artillerys automaticaly get free for the next target; while on the other hand rails or lasers get a faster targetswitch, making it almost the same considering current fleetbattlemechanics. The only thing making a pretty small difference is lag, since railsgunships and laserutilizers get more locking-lag in between their shots. basicaly, battlebehavior will stay almost the same like before. A 5% increase seems perfectly fine for me to compensate a bit of the fact that the lengthened battletimes will flatten the damagedistribution curve closer to a linear line. a BS with high RoF and low damage deals quiet a constant amount of damage over time:------------------------------- a BS with low RoF and high damage will start with making more damage, then less damage, then more damage than its couterpart damage over time:/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ increasing total armor for all ships by 50% would flatten the secondary sinus-like curve, making the characteristical specialty of the weapon less strong. an increase in damage and decrease of RoF would be quiet fitting for evening that fact out and strenghtening the characteristical anomaly of the weapontype again. Since 5% is by far not enough to even the loss of the weapons characteristical attribute out, a lack of RoF decrease seems fitting. I hope I wrote that understandable enough, it¦s difficult to translate analysis into english. kind regards, Skeltek
Emeline Cabernet Amarr KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:21:00 - [143] Edited by: Emeline Cabernet on 24/10/2006 08:21:32 hi, oh and mom said amarr rocks!!!!!!!
Gyro DuAquin1 Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:57:00 - [144] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: dalman Why does your graph has the megathron +25% bonus but not the tempest +25% bonus in it??? It's stupid at best. Remake the graph with the +25% arty bonus from tempest. He's taking standard ship bonuses into account. Howitzers are nearly guaranteed to be fit on ships with 5% rate of fire, while all Gallente ships have 5% damage bonus. However, a 1400mm is not guaranteed to be fit on a Tempest. Oh, and his graph is per turret, not per ship. (Assumption: you are commenting Tuxford's OP) That's ***** **** tbh. A 1400 will be fit on either: tempest - 6 guns with 25% damage and ROF bonus or Maelstrom - 8 guns and 25% ROF bonus. A 425 fitted on a either: megahtron - 7 guns with 25% damage bonus or Rokh - 8 guns no damage bonus. With current** stats, the DPS output for these ships are in order: 1. Maelstrom 2. Megathron 3. Tempest 4. Rokh The DPS difference between Megathron and Tempest is 3%. Quite amazing how you can whine so much for so little. Yes, that's without reload time. But then the arties don't use cap. And that megathron needs to carry thousands of ammo-rounds. what i dont get about ur list The tempest has 6 guns, with a damage bonus of 5 and bs level 5, it has the output of 8 guns. As the Maelstrom has 8 guns, and a rof bonus - which equals the tempest one - isnt it like a tempest BS level 5 with 8 guns and a defensiv bonus? so how can the maelstrom have a higher output then the tempest? Imo when u have a tempest at bs level 5 its the same damage output, with less guns. Or am i mistaken here? About the hitpoint bonus - as all of us get a 25% bonus it just that fights last longer - dont assume that only the enemie has 25% more hp, u also have. In large battles it wont make a difference cause a fleetbs (no hardeners, max damage) will be insta popped by 8 t2 max sklled tempest, so now its 10, of those :)
Zyrla Bladestorm Minmatar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:22:00 - [145] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Kosakova Intrinnae	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:33:00 - [146] Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. these are wrong btw, 25% reduction of rof is diffren from a damage increase it acturle gives you 33% more damage over time, when combined with a dammage bonus the increase of damage becomes 1.66%. heres a little example, 10x damage mod, 10 rof, before skills, 12.5x damage mod, 7.5 rof after skills, 12.5/7.5 = 1.6667 so tempest 6x 1.6667 = 10 Megathron 7x 1.25 = 8.75 Maelstrom = 8x 1.33 = 10.64 but artillery have crap dps to begin with so, no other ship in the game wants to fit them, so they are only useful on minmatar ships.
O Thief The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:37:00 - [147] Originally by: Granth Roden Tuxford - you and everybody else are forgetting the basics: you are not dealing with just one gun. This is about weapons platforms and the weapons in them. A few graphics will tell you nothing. Choose a viable setup for each BS, and a different one for combat or sniping. You're a dev, get a GM to grab some setups from gate camps. Again, guns MUST FIT. All the guns must be accounted for - and if the normal build has a torpedo then that goes in. Otherwise you're discussing nothing but an abstract. Why don't you model Thoraxes (and Mallers too) fitted with small (not med) T2 guns and high-end armor? Why do people use them? Is it not strange that it can be deadlier to fit small guns that do not get the bonii than to use the regular guns? This game is great and has excellent features, but there's some holes. A great part of the problem is that its not about races - its about initial setups that became outdated or unbalanced as other details changed. People go emotional about that and forget the simple truth: somebody set this up at the beginning and its been changed and updated and re-balanced, trying to maintain a "personality". Lets have a real discussion here, he? this is a good post, pay attention people.
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:46:00 - [148] With the new changes is gonna take twice tiem to braek someones tank and missiles isn't good for that already so let's make rof on cruise/siege launchers to 6/9s. They have teh lowest alpha since it takes so long to hit so lets make them go 20km/s too
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:00:00 - [149] I'm glad I'm balanced Amarr user Part of forum movement known as "It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö" To be Kali, or not to be Lagi
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:13:00 - [150] Originally by: Kosakova Intrinnae Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. these are wrong btw, 25% reduction of rof is diffren from a damage increase it acturle gives you 33% more damage over time, when combined with a dammage bonus the increase of damage becomes 1.66%. heres a little example, 10x damage mod, 10 rof, before skills, 12.5x damage mod, 7.5 rof after skills, 12.5/7.5 = 1.6667 so tempest 6x 1.6667 = 10 Megathron 7x 1.25 = 8.75 Maelstrom = 8x 1.33 = 10.64 but artillery have crap dps to begin with so, no other ship in the game wants to fit them, so they are only useful on minmatar ships. That's wrong, too. You can't have Megathron in that list since it's got completely different turrets. Different damage types, cap usage, and base dps per turret. Effective number of turret comparisons only work by class. By the way, what's so wrong with dividents? Maelstrom = 8 / 0.75 = 10.67 projectiles As for the list, I believe it'll rather be something like, in terms of dps for long range: Abaddon (rof bonus and 8 turrets, not that cap holds) Hyperion (damage bonus on 8 projectiles) Armageddon Maelstrom Apocalypse (if you cram on 8 tachs, that is) Megathron Rokh (it hasn't got a damage bonus, but you can't beat it at range!) Tempest (might be above the Rokh, actually) Typhoon Raven Dominix (it wasn't meant for long range, anyway) Scorpion (it might do least damage, but it can jam you up and beyond 200km) - What am I listening to?

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