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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:57:00 - [1] Lets start this by taking a look at this image. There are number of things that are odd about it. Turrets have bonuses applied, like range and damage for 425mm, rate of fire for artilliers and nothing for Amarr I'm comparing these guns by using lead for rails, standard for lasers and depleted uranium for artilleries There is a 5% damage bonus on Tachyon because the data I'm using is old and is pre Tach boost . With longer fights you need more ammo. I'm taking a look at that now. Whether its fair to compare these guns with this ammo fitted is debatable. Perhaps its best to make the different types of ammo the same, that is emp doing the same damage as antimatter and multifrequency but that requires to take a closer look at autocannons. First of why am I using these ammo types because there is a discrepancy in tech 1 ammo. Emp does less damage than antimatter and multifrequency. On the other hand the longest range projectile ammo does more damage then longest range hybrid and laser ammo. Tech 2 ammo on the other hand does the same damage. In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright but keep in mind that is factoring in the Gallente damage bonus and it never gets two of those. On the other hand some Amarr ships do get a rate of fire bonus sometime and Minmatar does get damage bonus as well as rate of fire bonus sometimes (although the only battleship - Tempest - only has 6 turrets). Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. In all other aspects its ranks low, except in alpha damage which usefulness has been somewhat diminished. So it needs a boost but how much? Lets take a look at an image with a modes 5% boost to artilleries. I also made pictures of damage over the first 60 seconds and first 120 seconds _______________

Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:58:00 - [2] First. HP Boost and Amarr...WHERE????? Pathetic. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Taipan Gedscho Taipan Industries	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:01:00 - [3] so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again?
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again? Looks like post patch will be: caldari > gallente > minmatar > mailman > amarr. Once again good job. Originally by: Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. NGE act 2.
AsfALT	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:04:00 - [5] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again? With a 5% boost to dmg on a 50% in hp the alpha won't have the same effect as before, it will just bring the dps of artys more on par with the other long range turrets
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:06:00 - [6] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. http://eve.klaki.net/
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:08:00 - [7] What Tyrrax said. Frankly im not even too bothered about the boost, except id like the RoF of Arties to be lowered to cover the DPS boost. Saying that no cap usage isnt that much of an advantage though... Im beginning to wonder if you were indeed sarcastic in the Dev Chat. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. Once again, the community is ignore, at least 25% of it. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Swamp Ziro EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:09:00 - [9] Wee =) Tux wants to adress the problem =D Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive, and when your turn comes, we'll try to do that too. If you want to make jabs, make them at gallente or something, okay?
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Elve Sorrow What Tyrrax said. Frankly im not even too bothered about the boost, except id like the RoF of Arties to be lowered to cover the DPS boost. Saying that no cap usage isnt that much of an advantage though... Im beginning to wonder if you were indeed sarcastic in the Dev Chat. Sad, but true. All this really going downhill and will have a lot of negative feedback if you do not turn. Originally by: Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. NGE act 2.

Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:10:00 - [11] zomg arti boost \o/ _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Wee =) Tux wants to adress the problem =D Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive, and when your turn comes, we'll try to do that too. If you want to make jabs, make them at gallente or something, okay? Constructive, or not. He simple doesn't give a s..damn. I still can't believe this. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
AsfALT	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:11:00 - [13] Edited by: AsfALT on 23/10/2006 12:11:40 The "no cap" is good for autos but kind of useless for artys cose if u fit largest artys u can't fit any cap consuming tank, so u have lots of cap and nothing to do with it... I think that's tuxford's point.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:12:00 - [14] Edited by: Old Geeza on 23/10/2006 12:14:01 Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: Swamp Ziro Wee =) Tux wants to adress the problem =D Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive, and when your turn comes, we'll try to do that too. If you want to make jabs, make them at gallente or something, okay? Constructive, or not. He simple doesn't give a s..damn. I still can't believe this. OMG HE POSTED ABOUT MINMATAR INSTEAD OF AMARR DISPITE HIM ALREADY SAYING HE'S LOOKING AT AMARR. TUXFORD FOR THE LOOOOOSEEEE!!!! Grow up and wait. Edit: And regarding the cap issue - it's not much of a bonus FOR MINMATAR, not in general. Having your guns use 3 cap every 10 seconds really isn't much different from having them use 0 cap every 10 seconds - the sensor boosters and tracking computers will drain more cap than that. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:13:00 - [15] Originally by: AsfALT The "no cap" is good for autos but kind of useless for artys cose if u fit largest artys u can't fit any cap consuming tank, so u have lots of cap and nothing to do with it... I think that's tuxford's point. No good for Arty? come back when you fly a megathron or a geddon in fleets and you run out of cap after firing for a couple of minutes
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:14:00 - [16] 5% damage boost will certainly help a bit to bring arties closer to being in line with 425mms and missiles. Lasers will lag behind because of omni-tanks (I personally believe the best solution is making the resist compensation skills useful for active hardeners to give people more of an incentive to fit them). Now, let's talk ammo sizes, cargo space, booster charges and of course cap management. With a general hp increase, these will all need to be looked at. Otherwise, autocannons, blasters and lasers will run into even more issues. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:14:00 - [17] I'm not 100% sure what your graphs are showing/against, but from ours, the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Given that your graphs are probably more accurate than ours, I'd think the 5% damage boost you've mentioned would be a good start, if nothing else. Looking at ammo sizes also would possibly make us very happy, as well as alleviating some of the problems we're abotu to have with autocannon ammo consumption. 33% ammo size decrease would seem appropriate as it would allow us to carry 150% more ammo than we do now, as well as cut down on our DPS issues caused by reloading. If your graphs are correct, it also would seem clear that Amarr need a DPS boost, although I really can't see why they appear to be so much worse than other guns. I've yet to see solid mathematics to prove what that graph seems to show. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:15:00 - [18] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: AsfALT The "no cap" is good for autos but kind of useless for artys cose if u fit largest artys u can't fit any cap consuming tank, so u have lots of cap and nothing to do with it... I think that's tuxford's point. No good for Arty? come back when you fly a megathron or a geddon in fleets and you run out of cap after firing for a couple of minutes Fit a cap recharger on the megathron? You've already got the biggest optimal range, so drop a tracking computer and fit something to keep your cap going. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
AsfALT	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:16:00 - [19] Regarding the increased capcity of clips and rof, a larger clip not only increases the dps but also gives a more uniform dps. If the clip and rof are very small, if u are unlucky a few times u do crap dmg before reloading. So maybe a smaller boost to dmg and a snall increase in rof for artys. Something like 3% dmg and 3% rof.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:16:00 - [20] Are you comparing the guns (with appropriate ship bonuses applied) to each other (i.e. comparing a 1400mm howi to a 425mm rail) or comparing the ships with the guns fitted (i.e. comparing a tempest w/ 1400mm to a megathron with 425mm)? I ask becuase just comparing the guns the 1400mm looks better than it actually is when fitted on a tempest due to the tempest only have 6 turrets.

Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:17:00 - [21] Btw don't forget that looking at those graphs, it's only for one turret. Amarr get 7-8 turrets (7 + rof bonus, or 8 + no bonus), Megathron gets 7, Rokh gets 8, Tempest gets 6 (+ damage) and the Maelstrom gets 8. Tuxford, could you please do us a new graph showing the turrets on the ships? _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Old Geeza Edit: And regarding the cap issue - it's not much of a bonus FOR MINMATAR, not in general. Having your guns use 3 cap every 10 seconds really isn't much different from having them use 0 cap every 10 seconds - the sensor boosters and tracking computers will drain more cap than that. the difference is you could be nossed to the point of not being able to fire your guns if your guns took 3 cap every 10s, with no cap use at all you cannot be nossed to the point of turning off your guns
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Old Geeza Btw don't forget that looking at those graphs, it's only for one turret. I knew there was something amiss in there. 7% probably is more the number to aim for, then, possibly even a little bit more. Also, i retract my acceptance that Amarr need boosting again :P Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive, and when your turn comes, we'll try to do that too. If you want to make jabs, make them at gallente or something, okay? Flying amarr and being unable to see the bigger picture aren't mutually exclusive (see my above post, keeping in mind that the only thing I can fly besides amarr are gallente frigs). Besides, we sorta owe the minnies a bit of support I think, as payback for the Khanid MK2 thread. Unban Sarmaul <3 ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. ARTILLERIES!!!!! Its a pretty nice advantage for autocannons though. _______________

Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. When was the last time you saw a vagabond with artillary? He is not boosting autocannons (with the expection that he is looking at ammo size too that will be a small secondary buff to ACs).
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [27] Righto, contstructive: I agree with the damage boost, to cover the Alpha strike loss of the Arties. Now... Does this apply to all Arties, just the 1400mm, just the large ones? (And what about XL?) Are you considering to lower the RoF of arties to make up for their increased DPS? Because, not alot of the Minmatar crowd minded the low DPS. They accepted it as one of the disadvantages. Regarding the cap, i am frankly stunned, but i will attempt to explain why i feel this IS a major advantage. I agree that the lack of cap usage doesnt seem much of an advantage when you look at it from the tank perspective. On the other hand, look at it from the Amarr/Gallente perspective. We run out of cap. And this is exactly where the advantage lies. For our firing to be constant, we have to fit 1-2 Cap Relays, which gives the Minnies 1-2 extra slots to fit Damage Mods/Tracking stuff, or whatever they fancy really. It's great being Amarr, aint it?

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Testy Mctest I'm not 100% sure what your graphs are showing/against, but from ours, the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Given that your graphs are probably more accurate than ours, I'd think the 5% damage boost you've mentioned would be a good start, if nothing else. Looking at ammo sizes also would possibly make us very happy, as well as alleviating some of the problems we're abotu to have with autocannon ammo consumption. 33% ammo size decrease would seem appropriate as it would allow us to carry 150% more ammo than we do now, as well as cut down on our DPS issues caused by reloading. If your graphs are correct, it also would seem clear that Amarr need a DPS boost, although I really can't see why they appear to be so much worse than other guns. I've yet to see solid mathematics to prove what that graph seems to show. Where do you get your graphs from? Are you comparing with shortest range t1 ammo because the graph does not look as errm nice with that. There is the slight possibility that my program might be off. I'll have a talk with my guy when he wakes up. _______________

GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Old Geeza Fit a cap recharger on the megathron? You've already got the biggest optimal range, so drop a tracking computer and fit something to keep your cap going. Proving my point. It's a pretty damn good bonus when you dont have to sacrifice mids or lows to keep shooting. While fitting cap mods on a megathron is possible (although nasty, I like my standard midslot setup), it's not an option on the geddon because you need 2 sensor boosters to lock at your optimal and the TC II just to compete with other snipers
Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Tuxford Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. Ok, try to use an apoc (the amarr tier 2 battleship ) with lasers and then fit projectile guns on it. ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE

Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:23:00 - [31] Edited by: Toaster Oven on 23/10/2006 12:22:43 Originally by: Tuxford Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. WTF, Tux please tell me you're kidding Assume all lvl 5 skills and 0 dmg mods: Tempest with 1400mm II = +18.4 cap/s remaining Apoc with Tachyon Beam II = -5.7 cap/s remaining, -2 low slots fitting Geddon with Tachyon Beam II = -17.4 cap/s remaining, -2 low slots fitting How is using no cap not that "great" of an advantage? I need to fit a damn cap injector and waste 2 low slots to fit Tachyons and be able to continue firing them, like a Tempest can. A Tempest can do a helluva lot with 3 extra slots to play with that it doesn't need to waste on fitting/cap mods.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:24:00 - [32] Originally by: Toaster Oven Tempest can. A Tempest can do a helluva lot with 3 extra slots to play with that it doesn't need to waste on fitting/cap mods. TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:24:00 - [33] He said it's not much of a plus point for artillery, not guns in general. Artillery used **-all cap to begin with, and tbh we barely noticed it when it was taken away. As for the guy who commented on being nossed - if you get nossed with artillery, you've generally **** up somehow and you're going to die anyway. Tuxford has also commented that it is a good advantage for autocannons which are used at close range. Is it not that hard to understand? _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:26:00 - [34] Originally by: Testy Mctest I'm not 100% sure what your graphs are showing/against, but from ours, the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. +5% damage and smaller ammo, sorted ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull****. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim.
AsfALT	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:27:00 - [36] After how much time of constant fiering dose a Mega / Arma remain without cap?
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:28:00 - [37] Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull****. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim. Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:29:00 - [38] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Toaster Oven Tempest can. A Tempest can do a helluva lot with 3 extra slots to play with that it doesn't need to waste on fitting/cap mods. TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. While i disagree, your point is moot since we need RCU IIs for Mega Beams too. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull***. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim. Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. OK, now add the 25% bonus to damage to ALL your 7 railguns with BS lvl 5 skill and the 37,5% to tracking. ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE*
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull****. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim. Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. OK, now add the 25% bonus to damage to ALL your 7 railguns with BS lvl 5 skill and the 37,5% to tracking. OWNED tbh. It's great being Amarr, aint it?

Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:42:00 - [41] you goddamn amarr whiners. Once I was one of em but people told me to learn and adapt, guess what? Power of 2 brought Tassi a nice caldari specced char and I am VERY happy with it The term "learn and adapt" can be translated into "go and train caldari". Let's go and train caldari
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:42:00 - [42] Edited by: Hoshi on 23/10/2006 12:42:38 Originally by: Tuxford Where do you get your graphs from? Are you comparing with shortest range t1 ammo because the graph does not look as errm nice with that. There is the slight possibility that my program might be off. I'll have a talk with my guy when he wakes up. Most people use Naughty Boys Excel sheets which allow you to get a graph with the best ammo for each range used. Very nice sheet.
MeGrand Gallente Thunder Talons 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:43:00 - [43] i am not a mathmetican so i am left wondering the following:- Artiary and cap use - agreed no cap use is handy on the auto's but lets think about artiallary for a momment take (for example) One megathron Vs One tempest Assume for the sake of argument an equall reistances on both ships, assume also they have the same tank (armour reps) Now apply the HP changes Now who wins? Megathron If:- It dose not run out of cap for guns/tank before it can break the tempest tanks Tempest If:- The tank is not broken (or runs out of cap, remember that mimitar have far less cap to start with), does it have the chance to use its remaning time to finish off the megathron The battle i'm invisioniong would be a case of both attack, mega fires away, come very close to killing tempest and runs out of cap, tempest can keep frieing and kill the thron - esseantly one is a hard but short punch the other an endurance fighter - damm odd for mimitar (hit and run anyone?) So what do people think would happen in suck a senario... All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:45:00 - [44] While I do feel that 5% damage boost might be just a bit short of what arties really require, instead of an increased damage mod I would not mind an additional slight boost in tracking to compensate. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Draycar Hazaran	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:47:00 - [45] Edited by: Draycar Hazaran on 23/10/2006 12:50:00 I'm not a math whiz(at all). My curiousity leads me to the effects of the HP boost on the viability a Thrasher or Wolf with 280mm IIs for frig-popping. Is this no longer viable? Am I going to be able to do significant damage before either the range closes or his transversal goes through the roof after lighting a propulsion mod? Once this happens, I die(if he's smart enough to stay just outside webbing anyway). As it stands with mid-grade to low end of good gunnery skills, I can usually pop an untanked T1 frig, but Inties require 2-3 volleys(before you freak out, do you honestly sit still in your interceptor very often?), and AFs sometimes as many as 5. Any math wizard willing to graph Small Artillery? EDIT: Oh, and Tux, thanks for listening.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:49:00 - [46] Originally by: Exiled One OWNED tbh. With max skills, 1 TC II 2 TE II (on both ships) the 425 II mega w/ spike has tracking of 0.006136, while the geddon w/ Tachyon II has 0.006454. The BONUS only just about brings it on par with Tach II, but then you get instant reloads and much higher alpha strike. The megathron and the armageddon are possibly the two most balanced ships in the game - factor in the damage types of the megathron and the geddon and a "standard" tank, and they do almost exactly the same damage. The megathron gets slightly higher optimal & falloff, while the geddon gets better tracking, ROF and alpha. The apoc is balanced in its own way by its higher alpha from the extra turret and improved cap, so stop whining
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:52:00 - [47] so are we going to get a capacitor increase or a cap use decrease on hybrids/lasers to go along with the increased length of fights? what about cap booster size?
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:52:00 - [48] we could use some graphs with the short range and long range ammo types. and especially the redicolous TII sniping ammo. Then there is the factor of what setup ships comes with. Anyways With my experience I`ve ended up with the conclution that the tempest with artilleries are the best to use in the mid range 50km to 150km. Rails are best to use at 150km and above and with the tracking amarr is the best to use at shorter ranges below 50km. when it comes to pulses and blasters and autocannons I havent looked very deep into it but their not usable in fleet battles so they should be balanced seperatly from the long range guns. Allso note that we dont want DPS on the tempest we want alpha and the mid range as we want to ustilise the minmatar agilitie and speed for hit and run. And in my opinion rails should be the snipers and Lasers should have the raw dps. What about even longer rof on the artillery and greater damage? Allthough yes could use a bit more dps but dont exaggerate. What I`m trying to say is that WE should maintain diversity in this game. If we dont there isnt much point in 3 weapon types.. we could simply let everyone use lasers and dont bother more with it. Remeber Balancing isnt the same as making things look alike.
Anaris Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:53:00 - [49] As an artillery user myself i'm hapy with this solution... And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... I fly all races ships And to the guy making a point about a thron and pest sniping at each other solo... Get a grip mate, pvp doesnt turn out like that ======= Too stig for a real sig...
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:53:00 - [50] I don't like where this is going.

Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:58:00 - [51] I'd like to say thanks to Tux for actually explaining his thoughts on the subject and not posting a one line "i'm doing this". It leaves a lot less questions for people to guess and complain about. To the Amarr whines at the top, he's said he's looking at it, insulting him won't get it done quicker, it just makes you look immature and pathetic. Time doesn't grow on trees, although i'd wish Tux didn't waste his time on HP boost instead of doing other things... ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:59:00 - [52] Edited by: Kerdrak on 23/10/2006 12:58:50 Originally by: Anaris As an artillery user myself i'm hapy with this solution... And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? People running missions, making 1vs1 pvp, npcing does EXISTS ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:00:00 - [53] Originally by: Anaris Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... I fly all races ships I didn't see you in 9CG back in april / may (Cos you weren't a bob member back then) We had some fights then where just about everyone amarr / gallente were totally out of cap and the only things still fighting were tempests and support. 30 seconds isn't very long when you have 30-40 second module activation / lock time and you're fighting 100+ vs 100+. It's definately an advantage, even if it does only mean you have more cap to rep up with when your get primaried and warp out I'm surprised though... no-one yet has used the "amarr" argument about damage types to show that infact, with a pretty standard-ish set of base sniper resists the tempest does similar, if not more, dps with only 6 turrets than the mega, apoc, or geddon.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:03:00 - [54] Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Old Geeza Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. OK, now add the 25% bonus to damage to ALL your 7 railguns with BS lvl 5 skill and the 37,5% to tracking. OWNED tbh. Too bad that the graphs already included +25% damage to the railguns. As it stands, with maxed skills Megathron with 7 425mm T2s and spike ammo does 3.4% (that is three point four percent, yes) more damage than Tempest with six 1400mm T2s and tremor ammo. With long-range T1 ammo, it's left in the dust as is. For this whole THREE-POINT-FOUR PERCENT DPS advantage, it pays at least 23 cap/sec, more if it fits damage mods. Thirty cap/sec is not peanuts - that's more than what gets drained by three heavy nosferati. Of course, with the current prevalence of armor tanking in fleet fights, the artillery damage types improve their effective damage by at least 10% compared to rails. So, to recap: with the potential arty boost, Tempest will do more damage, with better damage type, can switch that damage type if needed, AND has 25 more cap/second to play with compared to Mega. Sounds really good. -- NMTZ forum
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:04:00 - [55] Edited by: Old Geeza on 23/10/2006 13:04:48 Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull****. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim. Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. OK, now add the 25% bonus to damage to ALL your 7 railguns with BS lvl 5 skill and the 37,5% to tracking. OWNED tbh. Oh look, the graphs already have the 25% damage to rails added. The green line is a rail on a Megathron (+25% damage), while the blue line is a rail on the Rokh (+50% optimal). If you're going to start an argument, try checking the facts first. OWNED tbh. Edit: lol I was beaten _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Anaris Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:06:00 - [56] You could ask yourself if this is an alt ? And come on, dont pull the pve crap out the bag, they're all in ravens matey. I would however say that boosting capacitors is something that could do with looking at. And yes i was in 9cg... and really that was something extraordinary, a 1 in a million with fleet fights so quit your whining. Besides you have no ammo to worry about which is also useful in it's own context. For example removing ascn pos when there's no dreads available, who better to use than a laser boat... every race has its advantages you cant just pull off very rare examples to make a 'balancing' point. ======= Too stig for a real sig...
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:06:00 - [57] I used Apoc, Tempest and Mega for sniping the old non-deadspace missions. That was a lot of shooting, and Cap was never an issue except occasionally on the Apoc due to my poor skills. The Mega outperformed the others by quite a bit, the Tempest suffered from bad DPS, optimal and tracking, while the Apoc suffered from generally high NPC EM resists. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:07:00 - [58] Originally by: GO MaZ I'm surprised though... no-one yet has used the "amarr" argument about damage types to show that infact, with a pretty standard-ish set of base sniper resists the tempest does similar, if not more, dps with only 6 turrets than the mega, apoc, or geddon. Dammit, missed by three minutes. -- NMTZ forum
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:08:00 - [59] Tech2 ammo is used up, you know? It's great being Amarr, aint it?
LexMKII	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:16:00 - [60] this is a good start, but it needs a 7% damage increase and a reduction in Projectile ammo size. keep working on it, at least you admit the problem exists now.

GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:17:00 - [61] Originally by: Anaris You could ask yourself if this is an alt ? I did, but I dont know who's alts are who's. Originally by: Anaris And yes i was in 9cg... and really that was something extraordinary, a 1 in a million with fleet fights so quit your whining. If you were in 9cg you know that it does happen. While it might not happen all the time, having that extra cap is nothing to be laughed at, cap is ALWAYS useful. Originally by: Anaris Besides you have no ammo to worry about which is also useful in it's own context. I fly gallente only, I know how much I'd love to have no ammo
TheDarkForce	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:17:00 - [62] Edited by: TheDarkForce on 23/10/2006 13:18:25 Not to cast the need for an amarr boost aside but minmatar has needed some love for a lot longer atleast 2 years, so please dont squash our love and maybe after 2 years amarr will get some love aswell also put the change on the testy see how it goes with the 5% then maybe give 7% if it seams to need it. just my 2 isk
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:19:00 - [63] Originally by: Tuxford Where do you get your graphs from? Are you comparing with shortest range t1 ammo because the graph does not look as errm nice with that. There is the slight possibility that my program might be off. I'll have a talk with my guy when he wakes up. Naughty Boy's Damage Spreadsheet Link We use that. It's damned awesome. A 7% DPS boost put 1400s behind 425mm rails before factoring in reloads even, and we still have worse tracking and range. It puts us more in line with a reasonable DPS. The problem is, though, that nowadays artillery are becomign too similar in effect to other guns and this is removing diversity. I agree that nerfing alpha strike is good, but artilleries' other 'difference points' - no cap use, lower damage in return - aren't different enough to keep it interesting. I think you really need to highlight the 'throwing shells over huge ranges' aspect of artillery by increasing falloff and lowering optimal. One of the major problems with our DPS is that fighting in falloff punishes us a lot, and given that we still have lower range with falloff than weapons such as railguns it's a major issue. As well as a straight DPS increase, and to keep things different (more than anything else I'd hate to see artillery becoming just another type of gun with different numbers but no different tactics), I seriously think a nerf of optimal and large increase in falloff for artillery is neccessary, together with a falloff effecting lowslot module. Artillery has a stupidly poor tracking and even with a buff will have less DPS than everything else, but for flavour, it really should have the longest range as well as being the least accurate. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Sandra Tseng THE MISPHIT'S	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:22:00 - [64] Just a curious question, I have decided not to get involved in this "Boost-Amarr" campaigh - but: Do you factor in that when ammo runs out for Blasters/rails, Missiles, Auotcannons/martillery you have to wait 10 seconds to reload? 10 seconds while the amarr ship just sits and blasts and blasts away? 10 seconds gets 20 seconds after a while - then 30. 30 seconds is a long time to sit and tank while you get pummeled by tachyon lasers all the time... just a curious question.. _ Killed my sig AGAIN! :p http://www.ninc.org/krubarax/images/2d/verydisco.jpg
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:50:00 - [65] Why does your graph has the megathron +25% bonus but not the tempest +25% bonus in it??? It's stupid at best. Remake the graph with the +25% arty bonus from tempest. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:07:00 - [66] Originally by: dalman Why does your graph has the megathron +25% bonus but not the tempest +25% bonus in it??? It's stupid at best. Remake the graph with the +25% arty bonus from tempest. He's taking standard ship bonuses into account. Howitzers are nearly guaranteed to be fit on ships with 5% rate of fire, while all Gallente ships have 5% damage bonus. However, a 1400mm is not guaranteed to be fit on a Tempest. Oh, and his graph is per turret, not per ship. (Assumption: you are commenting Tuxford's OP) - What am I listening to?
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:09:00 - [67] Thank you tux.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Anaris And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... Well, maybe you never see it happen but when a few dictors trap an enemy fleet it will require you to sit there for quite a while pounding everything inside the bubbles to dust... -- .sig apathy ftw
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:25:00 - [69] Originally by: prsr Originally by: Anaris And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... Well, maybe you never see it happen but when a few dictors trap an enemy fleet it will require you to sit there for quite a while pounding everything inside the bubbles to dust... If the enemy has any common sense, they will have speed mods on their fleet setups and will MWD out of the bubble as fast as possible. If they're really smart, their megathrons and scorps will be filling their 1-2 spare high slots with smartbombs to pop the interdictor bubbles (one large smartbomb = dead bubble). Fighting nubs is no justification for game balance :P _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:26:00 - [70] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. Hey rocket scientist the post is about artys not AC ,might try to read it some times. Originally by: Exiled One First. HP Boost and Amarr...WHERE????? Pathetic. Hey slaver that is in noob corp learn to walk first ,then come here . Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: AsfALT The "no cap" is good for autos but kind of useless for artys cose if u fit largest artys u can't fit any cap consuming tank, so u have lots of cap and nothing to do with it... I think that's tuxford's point. No good for Arty? come back when you fly a megathron or a geddon in fleets and you run out of cap after firing for a couple of minutes If you manage to survive that long ,the gang will not need ya anyway. Originally by: Elve Sorrow Righto, contstructive: I agree with the damage boost, to cover the Alpha strike loss of the Arties. Now... Does this apply to all Arties, just the 1400mm, just the large ones? (And what about XL?) Are you considering to lower the RoF of arties to make up for their increased DPS? Because, not alot of the Minmatar crowd minded the low DPS. They accepted it as one of the disadvantages. Regarding the cap, i am frankly stunned, but i will attempt to explain why i feel this IS a major advantage. I agree that the lack of cap usage doesnt seem much of an advantage when you look at it from the tank perspective. On the other hand, look at it from the Amarr/Gallente perspective. We run out of cap. And this is exactly where the advantage lies. For our firing to be constant, we have to fit 1-2 Cap Relays, which gives the Minnies 1-2 extra slots to fit Damage Mods/Tracking stuff, or whatever they fancy really. Yes please lower the rof we need those arties to shoot faster.

Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:28:00 - [71] RoF = Rate of Fire Lower RoF = Lower Rate of Fire = Slower Firing. Idiot. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:32:00 - [72] Originally by: Elve Sorrow RoF = Rate of Fire Lower RoF = Lower Rate of Fire = Slower Firing. Idiot. Come on now, lower could also refer to the value of the number. 3 is lower than 4 for example. It would be much easier if we refered to it as a "faster rate of fire" and a "slower rate of fire" as that implies we are talking about the result, not the variable. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:33:00 - [73] As Testy said, Naughty Boys spreadsheet is one of the most impressive pieces of Excel work that I have seen in a long while. It can model accurately almost any situation that you would like to examine. The community owes NB a lot for producing it for us. If we mount one turret on a ship and calc damage it looks pretty similar to what you have. I have included all T1 ammo so we can see how the damage changes over the entire range of ammo. I find this more enlightening than 1 ammo in general as it lets us see how they perform across the entire range. 1 mounted weapon on BS with T1 ammo I can see the thought process on why you have tried to compare them in such a fashion. If the turrets are relatively balanced then the different "racial flavor" can come from the ship mounting that specific weapon. Now let's mount the same weapons with a full large weapon loadout. I will include the Rokh in this chart since it's coming into play soonÖ. BS sniping with a full load of long range weapons, T1 ammo. Includes the Rokh. In this analysis we see the Tempest is at the bottom DPS wise at the begining since emp is slightly lower damage. As the range expands we see it pulling ahead of the Laser weapons, but still fall behind Rails on a mega and WAY behind the Rokh. While the Tempest DPS should definitely be a bit lower, I would say that 5% is a must, and even 7% would not be out of line by any stretch of the imagination. However, any DPS increase should inculde etching on the Howie barrel that says "My Amarr Master made my ship better than Matari ductape". Gold inlay would look best. Nyxus 1 last graph with T2 ammo I like to call: Why everyone will be using the Rokh in fleets. Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:35:00 - [74] Of note, regarding the last graph from Nyxus: That blue line is all horizontal when you include Tracking Enhancers on the ships. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:35:00 - [75] Are you talking about boosting the guns or the ammo? --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:40:00 - [76] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Of note, regarding the last graph from Nyxus: That blue line is all horizontal when you include Tracking Enhancers on the ships. /agrees. While the other ships can boost to around 200 or 215km optimal with Tracking mods, the Rokh is doing max damage across the entire range of targeting (250km). Of course, if we could warp to any ship that was 150km or farther away (like you can gangmates or objects) I wouldn't mind that massive DPS difference the Rokh gets at all. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:40:00 - [77] Dearest Tuxford, The main issue with arties, imo, is not thier DPS. Thats low, its always been low, we know that. The main problem is thier usefullness in gang warfare. The only reason to use arties before these changes was the alpha strike. The burst damage the sniper could do as the rest of the gang was getting in combat range and tackling the target. The reason for this was the slow rof, and the fact that you would only get one or two rounds fired. The problem with just increase DPS and not looking at burst damage is you eliminate a style of play from the game. You eliminate the Alphastrike placement of snipers, and turn them more into big AC boats that are dependant on keeping a target stationary for long periods of time in order to DPS the target down over time. This doesnt work for arty users because our tracking sucks, and our range requires us to be out of web/scram distance. I would be interested if you ran "real world" tests and graphed the damage for all the guns. For example setup a sniper at range of a gate, and have your target orbiting a smaller ship and graph that DPS over time, as that would be more inductive and not so linear. You would see the alpha of arty being the most important factor involved. 1400mm II user on 3 accounts, Popsikle __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:43:00 - [78] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 23/10/2006 14:43:11 Fitted Sniper Graph So, we have: Tempest, 2x bonus towards DPS Mega, 1x bonus towards DPS Geddon, 1x Bonus towards DPS It takes 2x bonus's on a pest to get near to the damage of a Mega. What the graph doesn't show is the tracking difference which is large. There is the theory of tracking having something to do with wreakings (depends if you believe it or not). So: Mega has slightly better DPS, more range, more tracking for cap use. Tempest has lowest DPS, lowest range for top tiers, lowest tracking, large alpha strike and no cap use. Geddon has largest DPS, good tracking (can't get numbers compared to a Mega with rails atm) for high cap use. Looking at that graph a Geddon with Megabeams, a Tempest with 1400mm's and a Mega with 425mm's are comparable. Hence I belive Tach's are a tier above those, it can reach the range of a Mega with 425mm's, much more DPS and still have decent tracking (better than 1400mm's. With regards to fitting. A pest has double figure PG left after fitting its guns, so you need an RCU to fit anything in the other high slots or to plate/expander it, so basically leaving you in "gank" format. A Geddon does have to use one RCU to fit its final gun, but this leaves it with 1 high (offline rep or something ect) and enough pg to plate itself while still getting the sensor booster/tracking enhances/heat sinks on. If it wanted to go to "gank" format and not use any defence in the forms of plates it could fit a second RCU and fit Tach's and again still get its sensor booster/tracking enhances/heat sinks on, outranging, out dps'ing, and out tracking 1400mm's of which a Tempest can not improve upon cos it already is using its max tier weapons. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:47:00 - [79] Alpha strike in terms of absolute hit points is bad, since it drastically shortens combat if it is to be effective. An option to make alpha strikes valuable is if something happened to a ship that sustain massive hits. This is just theorizing, but if an alpha strike is reduced to where it's no longer an issue whether you survive it or not, but a negative effect is incurred on the ship if you sustain a heavy hit, alpha strikes will still be valuable. This is a theory of how it's easier to sustain 100 strength 10 hits than it is to sustain 10 strength 100 hits. The intuitive thought is damage leaking, of course, but this would require a rather large boost to hull hit points. - What am I listening to?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:48:00 - [80] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Geddon has largest DPS, good tracking (can't get numbers compared to a Mega with rails atm) for high cap use. The Geddon has better tracking. - What am I listening to?

Mallick	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:49:00 - [81] So the excel cheet does not take the Tempest 25% bonus into account? And really, 1400mm IS mostly used on a Tempest, not really on the Typhoon... Maybe we should compare 425mm Railguns on Caldari ships instead. 425mm Railguns SUCKS BOOST DMG OUTPUT ASAP STAT NOW!
Kookman Minmatar TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:49:00 - [82] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. ARTILLERIES!!!!! Its a pretty nice advantage for autocannons though. You been in any fleet fights lately Tux?
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:50:00 - [83] Originally by: Ithildin Alpha strike in terms of absolute hit points is bad, since it drastically shortens combat if it is to be effective. An option to make alpha strikes valuable is if something happened to a ship that sustain massive hits. This is just theorizing, but if an alpha strike is reduced to where it's no longer an issue whether you survive it or not, but a negative effect is incurred on the ship if you sustain a heavy hit, alpha strikes will still be valuable. This is a theory of how it's easier to sustain 100 strength 10 hits than it is to sustain 10 strength 100 hits. The intuitive thought is damage leaking, of course, but this would require a rather large boost to hull hit points. Maybe some effect on subsystem targeting? I like it, actually. OMGMYWARPDRIVESHUTDOWN! Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Ishana Minmatar Neo Knight Errant	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:58:00 - [84] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Ithildin Alpha strike in terms of absolute hit points is bad, since it drastically shortens combat if it is to be effective. An option to make alpha strikes valuable is if something happened to a ship that sustain massive hits. This is just theorizing, but if an alpha strike is reduced to where it's no longer an issue whether you survive it or not, but a negative effect is incurred on the ship if you sustain a heavy hit, alpha strikes will still be valuable. This is a theory of how it's easier to sustain 100 strength 10 hits than it is to sustain 10 strength 100 hits. The intuitive thought is damage leaking, of course, but this would require a rather large boost to hull hit points. Maybe some effect on subsystem targeting? I like it, actually. OMGMYWARPDRIVESHUTDOWN! -Make the ship getting hit by more then X% of it's hp's revert to 0 m/s speed for a few seconds. -Or just make a ship getting hit take a % penalty to it's speed across the board. This would actually be a pretty good reprecentation of what would happen to a ship in space getting hit by a high speed projectile. It would reduce the need for webbers when using howies aswell ^^ _________________________________________________________
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:00:00 - [85] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Ithildin Alpha strike in terms of absolute hit points is bad, since it drastically shortens combat if it is to be effective. An option to make alpha strikes valuable is if something happened to a ship that sustain massive hits. This is just theorizing, but if an alpha strike is reduced to where it's no longer an issue whether you survive it or not, but a negative effect is incurred on the ship if you sustain a heavy hit, alpha strikes will still be valuable. This is a theory of how it's easier to sustain 100 strength 10 hits than it is to sustain 10 strength 100 hits. The intuitive thought is damage leaking, of course, but this would require a rather large boost to hull hit points. Maybe some effect on subsystem targeting? I like it, actually. OMGMYWARPDRIVESHUTDOWN! I remember someones (not mentioning names) topic about "OMG MISSILES WARP SCRAMBLED ME BY KNOCKED ME OF MY ALIGNED WARP!!!".... I'd laugh so hard if arty could actual do that. Please please please Tux give me a laugh. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Danii CryoTech	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:09:00 - [86] Originally by: Anaris As an artillery user myself i'm hapy with this solution... And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... I fly all races ships Just supposing some hypothetical situation where all ship hitpoints were boosted by, I don't know, 50%? Would that make the battles last longer, and cap use of weapons become a factor?
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:23:00 - [87] Originally by: Elve Sorrow RoF = Rate of Fire Lower RoF = Lower Rate of Fire = Slower Firing. Idiot. Indeed i'am . I usually try to put things in my mother language.And after i tried to troll the trolls of tuxford i made a mistake :). Why so bitter elve?
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:25:00 - [88] Originally by: Pesadel0 Why so bitter elve? 1) He joined Scrapheap Challenge and we rubbed off on him (not literally, of course) 2) He's Amarr and it's in the blood :P Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:33:00 - [89] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 23/10/2006 15:35:07 Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 23/10/2006 15:34:40 secondary 'leakage' effects from ammo that would act like racial ewar would be great. Hybrid charges with short range would lower scan resolution in small amounts. Hybrid charges with long range would lower your ships sensor strength. Lasers would lower turret tracking at all ranges Projectile charges would light you up like a x-mas tree and increase your signature radius. Tech 2 ammo would increase the effects. T2 Effects would be hard capped at 15% of the best module that would create such an effect while t1 would be hard capped at 7.5%. T2 ammo damage and range would not change over its t1 equivelents. As ranges vary through the tech 1 ammo so would the effects. Finally make the Minmatar exp./kin based for heavens sake and get rid of the rainbow crap. Now for minmatar weapons with the build in Target Painting our DPS might not be so great but as time goes by so would our ability to hit the bloody target. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:36:00 - [90] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Pesadel0 Why so bitter elve? 1) He joined Scrapheap Challenge and we rubbed off on him (not literally, of course) 2) He's Amarr and it's in the blood :P Nah, Elve is irate now becuase he trained Matari after the EAN problems with Amarr instead of training Caldari. Thank god Sarmauls Khanid MK2 concepts convinced me to train missiles and Caldari half a year ago. Otherwise I would likely be extremely irate as well. I really like the idea that if alpha strike of arties is reduced in effectiveness a slight speed adjustment when getting hit would be a good idea, but may be slightly overpowered (look ma, I don't need no stinking scramblers!). Of course upping the rof and raising the damage mod as Elve suggested would seem to work fine to me as well. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants

Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:49:00 - [91] To be honest, I don't think many Minmatar pilots care about artillery DPS so long as the alpha strike makes up for it. I had always considered artillery to be the "opening act" of a fleet fight, where they try and anihilate as much as they can before the rest of the ships get to work. Unfortunately, the fact that there is no T2 EM/thermal ammo for any projectile means most of their damage is lost on 60% shield resistances :'( _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:55:00 - [92] Originally by: ElCoCo No I realy don't like where you whiners are taking this game. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely equal to race's Y ship in circumstance Z. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely more usefull to race's Y ships in most if not all circumstance. Its not about equality really, ITs about making more races and play styles usefull. If the 1400mm's do lower DPS over time, that fine by me, give us another use over the other ships... __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:07:00 - [93] what would be nice is to see artys to get a 25% higher dammage, and then a Lower ROF so the dps is about the lvl it is today but we then will have the alpha strike and its been a part of the game forever lets keep it, its a disgrace for Minmatar
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: dalman Why does your graph has the megathron +25% bonus but not the tempest +25% bonus in it??? It's stupid at best. Remake the graph with the +25% arty bonus from tempest. He's taking standard ship bonuses into account. Howitzers are nearly guaranteed to be fit on ships with 5% rate of fire, while all Gallente ships have 5% damage bonus. However, a 1400mm is not guaranteed to be fit on a Tempest. Oh, and his graph is per turret, not per ship. (Assumption: you are commenting Tuxford's OP) That's ***** **** tbh. A 1400 will be fit on either: tempest - 6 guns with 25% damage and ROF bonus or Maelstrom - 8 guns and 25% ROF bonus. A 425 fitted on a either: megahtron - 7 guns with 25% damage bonus or Rokh - 8 guns no damage bonus. With current** stats, the DPS output for these ships are in order: 1. Maelstrom 2. Megathron 3. Tempest 4. Rokh The DPS difference between Megathron and Tempest is 3%. Quite amazing how you can whine so much for so little. Yes, that's without reload time. But then the arties don't use cap. And that megathron needs to carry thousands of ammo-rounds. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Mr Bright untaught THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:26:00 - [95] I got several observations from the laid out data and suggested 5% increase. It seems to me that the balancing for the artillery is more directed towards the new Maelstrom than the Tempest. That could be a very easy explanation for the single gun comparison, since every new Tier3 can actually fit 8 guns. If that is indeed the case, then it does look about right with all guns DOS wise after the 5% boost. BUT, the problem hides in the unsaid. If the graph is versus stationary targets - artillery will seem better than it would be in an actual fight. I wonder if this is something that was forgotten when the diagrams was calculated. Now Artillery will get 5% increase in damage mod - but HP's will increase by 50%. Seems to me this is still a significant boost to defences compared to a minor helping hand for weapons build for alpha strikes capability. Since artillery have one area its king (namely alpha strike) and is inferior in just about every other stat (tracking, optimal, DPS), it would seem a 5% Damage boost is a scrap cast of quell the growling mut at the feet. On an added note, its worth mentioning that the new Tier3 BS for minmatar seems more to me like an attempt to lower the gap between BS 3, 4 and 5 pilots. Since the alpha strike of the Tier 3 BS will be the same regardless of level. This actually makes it easier to spot low skilled pilots in fleet ops. The high skilled will be in Tempests, since here they are faster, more agile and much cheaper to field/equip while performing as well or better than the new Maelstrom. So in essens while other races get ship for a new role, the minmatar gets a ship to help the new players along till they can gradutate into a Tempest
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:32:00 - [96] Originally by: Testy Mctest the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Hypocracy 4tw eh? How many hours has it been since you said the problem was tracking, not DPS? Make up your mind. Are you screaming for a damage boost (thereby saying that tracking wasn't actually an issue and hence that you don't need the damage boost in the first place), or what are you actually saying? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:33:00 - [97] Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: ElCoCo No I realy don't like where you whiners are taking this game. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely equal to race's Y ship in circumstance Z. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely more usefull to race's Y ships in most if not all circumstance. Its not about equality really, ITs about making more races and play styles usefull. If the 1400mm's do lower DPS over time, that fine by me, give us another use over the other ships... So let's say they all do same DPS over time like most ppl seem to want. How would you balance the no-cap issue on minmatar ships compared to amarr? And then again amarr guns don't use that much more cap compared to railguns to offset the no-ammo issue. (and don't tell me crystals run out cause they last pretty damn much) This isn't a pro-gallente post... I fly every race BS and so far I appreciate immensely the diversity of using diifferent ships on occasions.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:49:00 - [98] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Hypocracy 4tw eh? Since I made a recent commitment not to get angry and rant anymore, I wont respond in kind to the jab. However, the problem is DPS. I showed you and others DPS graphs to prove that our DPS was lower. I also pointed out that in addition to that fact, our tracking was an issue as well, which affects our DPS. In the same way falloff is an issue that also affects our DPS. However, tracking and falloff being issues are two things that differentiate Artillery from Rails or Beams. While I wouldnt argue with some changes in tracking, and would actually be happy to have us more falloff based, I think for the sake of interestingness (look ma, I invented a word!) I'd rather have them different enough to other weapons to still be, well, different. At the end of the day, though, all the difference in the world is no good if you still hit about as hard as a piece of wet paper. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:51:00 - [99] Megathron out-ranges, out-tracks, and out-damages a tempest. Alpha strike is the only thing going for artillery at the moment.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:59:00 - [100] Edited by: dalman on 23/10/2006 17:00:09 Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Hypocracy 4tw eh? Since I made a recent commitment not to get angry and rant anymore, I wont respond in kind to the jab. However, the problem is DPS. I showed you and others DPS graphs to prove that our DPS was lower. I also pointed out that in addition to that fact, our tracking was an issue as well, which affects our DPS. In the same way falloff is an issue that also affects our DPS. sigh You completely refused to use a graph with zero transversal, because the "optimal conditions" DPS difference is 3%. Instead you threw in a graph with a 'ridiculous' 200 m/s transversal and no tracking computers fitted - showing your damage lacking because of tracking. At this point I managed to get you to do a graph with tracking computers fitted, but you would not lower the unrealistic transversal. Which made your artilleries still have some minor tracking issues making the dps difference ~10%. So: * Either tracking is not an issue, and then you're not in need of any DPS increase. * Or you want a tracking increase. And post with your main :/ Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me

Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:00:00 - [101] Its easy. Just give minmatar such insane alpha strike that it keeps its DPS in longer engagements, but it literally takes 20 seconds between shots. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Joe Gurista	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:03:00 - [102] what about your two remaining high slots? You can put 2 CM or siege launcher in there and increase your damage output way beyond that of a Mega after 10/20 seconds or even less.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:20:00 - [103] I think the the point you amarr whiners are missing when Tux said the lack of cap wasn't that great an advantage for artillery is that before it used very little cap. Then the "buff" to artillery was removing all the cap use from it. Before it was using something like 3 cap, so 3 cap with the slow rof wasn't exactly hurting our capacitor. So the "buff" to artillery did jack and he's saying that this fact plus the upcoming nerf to alpha strike means artillery needs some help. And god forbid some other issues get looked at, you know you amarr aren't the only ones with problems and until tux says ** off to you lot stop screaming that the sky is falling In rust we trust!!!**
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:22:00 - [104] Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Pesadel0 Why so bitter elve? 1) He joined Scrapheap Challenge and we rubbed off on him (not literally, of course) 2) He's Amarr and it's in the blood :P Nah, Elve is irate now becuase he trained Matari after the EAN problems with Amarr instead of training Caldari. Thank god Sarmauls Khanid MK2 concepts convinced me to train missiles and Caldari half a year ago. Otherwise I would likely be extremely irate as well. Actually, its because im emo. I read it on the forums. (j/k Tux :P) It's great being Amarr, aint it?
OrangeAfroMan Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Elve Sorrow What Tyrrax said. Frankly im not even too bothered about the boost, except id like the RoF of Arties to be lowered to cover the DPS boost. Saying that no cap usage isnt that much of an advantage though... Im beginning to wonder if you were indeed sarcastic in the Dev Chat. He said in relation to artillery. Also it doesnt matter if you have 100% cap, if your hp runs out due to LOWER DPS, you're dead anyway. Good work Tux, I'm glad you listened to the Minmatar when they said arties were going to be crap >.< Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
Sonho	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:33:00 - [106] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Its easy. Just give minmatar such insane alpha strike that it keeps its DPS in longer engagements, but it literally takes 20 seconds between shots. No thanks ....And that would make them what exactly ???Just a fleet gun? Wait a minute ... Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Pesadel0 Why so bitter elve? 1) He joined Scrapheap Challenge and we rubbed off on him (not literally, of course) 2) He's Amarr and it's in the blood :P Nah, Elve is irate now becuase he trained Matari after the EAN problems with Amarr instead of training Caldari. Thank god Sarmauls Khanid MK2 concepts convinced me to train missiles and Caldari half a year ago. Otherwise I would likely be extremely irate as well. Actually, its because im emo. I read it on the forums. (j/k Tux :P) Tux is emo?
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:51:00 - [107] Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: ElCoCo No I realy don't like where you whiners are taking this game. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely equal to race's Y ship in circumstance Z. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely more usefull to race's Y ships in most if not all circumstance. Its not about equality really, ITs about making more races and play styles usefull. If the 1400mm's do lower DPS over time, that fine by me, give us another use over the other ships... So let's say they all do same DPS over time like most ppl seem to want. How would you balance the no-cap issue on minmatar ships compared to amarr? And then again amarr guns don't use that much more cap compared to railguns to offset the no-ammo issue. (and don't tell me crystals run out cause they last pretty damn much) This isn't a pro-gallente post... I fly every race BS and so far I appreciate immensely the diversity of using diifferent ships on occasions. You seem to missed the point of what you quoted... WE (AT LEAST I) DONT WANT EQUAL DPS, I DONT WANT A DPS BUFF, I WANT A ******* ROLE IN COMBAT. That role, used to be alphastrike, and now there is no arty role in combat, go back to the last page, read my letter to tux, it explains what the problem is. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:05:00 - [108] Originally by: Popsikle You seem to missed the point of what you quoted... WE (AT LEAST I) DONT WANT EQUAL DPS, I DONT WANT A DPS BUFF, I WANT A ******* ROLE IN COMBAT. That role, used to be alphastrike, and now there is no arty role in combat, go back to the last page, read my letter to tux, it explains what the problem is. You still have the highest alpha compared to all other ships so I don't know wtf you on about. The problem is that you're used to need one salvo from X ammount of tempests to instapop a BS and now with the HP buff you'll need 1&1/2? Oh and don't swear.
Diana Merris Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:13:00 - [109] Well, I see that the anti-projectile Tempest whiners are out in force already. To those people I'll just say (for the millionth billionth time) the Tempest is not the only Minmatar ship. To Tuxford: Thank you Tux for finally taking the the Tempest out of the equation.
biomass monkey	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:28:00 - [110] I suppose I just don't get it. The last time they increased the hitpoints, the artillery screamed their heads off. Now, I look at Minmatar, see just how effective they are in fleet combat and wonder exactly what the problem is. Tuxford is semi right-- I have rarely seen 1v1 tempests or typhoons fitted with artillery because 1v1 engagements almost always happen within scramble range where the effectiveness of artillery is drastically reduced-- that is to say, unless you're just whining about the reduced effect of solo gate sniping from 200km. Take a look at the average fleet battle. If 50 battleships fire on 1 battleship, it won't last more than 10 seconds. Now increase hitpoints by 50%, and maybe it will last 15 seconds. At best you only get 2 to 3 volleys off. DPS only matters when combat lasts incredibly long, and I somehow doubt that even with this 50% HP increase, that combat will last for any real noticeable length longer than it does now.

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:33:00 - [111] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/10/2006 18:35:59 Ok, ive read the entire thread. Some points... 1) Nice to see some discussion with Tuxford over the issue, instead of just getting served a solution in 2 months that may or may not be the best one. By discussing problems in threads like these, a lot of people get to discuss it which should be good for game balance in the end. I think you should do this more often for the important topics. 2) Amarr people, this thread is about artillery. Please wait for the thread on EANM and Amarr. Im expecting one in the future, since Tux has said he will look into it. 3) Tuxford, chocking to see you didnt know about NB's spreadsheet, specially since we have been using it for years...(!). But better late than never. Its a very nice tool, and you can easily see the graphs for alpha strike, dps etc for all weapons. You can even configure the tank of your choice and see the dps decrease against it for different types of ammo. All graphs are with maxed skills. 4) Please have a look at Large Autocannons and see if you feel they are balanced compared to hybrids and lasers. I rarely see anyone complain about medium or small autocannons. Its on the battleship level they might need some love. 5) Have a look at both Testys and dalmans posts. They are both doing a good job arguing about artillery damage using facts and showing different situations. 6) Compare the megathron and the tempest. Megathron is the king of close-up damage and also very close to the tempest at artillery/railgun damage. There needs to be a reason for people to train minmatar battleships, and there wont be if you allow the megathron to be almost as good at range, and much, much better up close. The only thing it has going for it is currently alpha strike, which I think you should keep and make strong so there is a reason for people to choose it. You dont want everyone to go gallente, do you? And again, thanks for communicating. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Veryez	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:45:00 - [112] Good idea and a good step. Thanks Tux for looking into this. For those who don't understand why this is needed, balance. As far as looking into ammo sizes - thanks, nothing's worse than filling your cargo w/ammo and then running out. Forget having room for loot, the need to swap ammo mid-fight resists means I rarely go into combat w/my cargo less than 90% full. And while I don't fly Amarr ships or use lasers, the concerns expressed by my former captors over the hp increase further exaggerating laser weakness (damage type) are valid, and also should be looked at.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:50:00 - [113] Originally by: ElCoCo You still have the highest alpha compared to all other ships so I don't know wtf you on about. The problem is that you're used to need one salvo from X ammount of tempests to instapop a BS and now with the HP buff you'll need 1&1/2? Oh and don't swear. Yes, because Pests can reliably insta-pop any ship now. If your not an arty user, or have any idea wth your talking about (yes you ElCoCo) there is no need for you to post in this thread. But to appease all the "omg i fly one race bs's but i know it all lolz" people like you, in order for a Pest to even instapop a frigate, it means the frigate has to be stationary, and we need a decent bit of luck on our part to get decent hits. Maybe someone with 50mil skillpoints can do better, and actually get an instapop on a frigate thats moving, but its very unlikley without the use of an alt in a scimitar. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
xaioguai Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:02:00 - [114] Actually, 1400 apoc has greater alpha strike now, higher than tempest. and if i recall correctly, tempest will designated for short range ac while new maelstorm will become the new artillery gun boat. What if maelstorm has 5% damage bonus instead rate of fire bonus.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:11:00 - [115] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/10/2006 19:14:35 Originally by: xaioguai Actually, 1400 apoc has greater alpha strike now, higher than tempest. Yes. That is also one of the problems that needs to be taken into consideration. 8 guns with no bonuses (apoc) = 8 effective turrets 6 guns with 25% dmg bonus (tempest) = 7.5 effective turrets If Tempest is given 7.5% dmg per level, it gets 8.25 turrets of alpha strike. If large autocannons needs a boost, this might be a good fix. Problem is that the 0.25 advantage is pretty meaningless. I would rather that they lower large artillery damage, and give higher damage bonuses to the ships that are supposed to fit them (minmatar battleships). For example, lower their damage with 10%, but give tempest 15% damage per level. Its the only real fix I can think of to not make the Apoc a better choice than the Tempest for alpha striking. It would also allow for Tux to easier modify damage output of the ships... for example, Maelstrom might be overpowered with the above changes, but then it would be easy to just give it less of a damage bonus to keep it in line. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:12:00 - [116] Edited by: ElCoCo on 23/10/2006 19:12:21 double post ftl
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:12:00 - [117] Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: ElCoCo You still have the highest alpha compared to all other ships so I don't know wtf you on about. The problem is that you're used to need one salvo from X ammount of tempests to instapop a BS and now with the HP buff you'll need 1&1/2? Oh and don't swear. Yes, because Pests can reliably insta-pop any ship now. If your not an arty user, or have any idea wth your talking about (yes you ElCoCo) there is no need for you to post in this thread. But to appease all the "omg i fly one race bs's but i know it all lolz" people like you, in order for a Pest to even instapop a frigate, it means the frigate has to be stationary, and we need a decent bit of luck on our part to get decent hits. Maybe someone with 50mil skillpoints can do better, and actually get an instapop on a frigate thats moving, but its very unlikley without the use of an alt in a scimitar. Noone can instapop any BS alone duh. I was talking of fleet action. You said you need to have alpha-strike, which is already better (by quite a bit) than all other BS's. So what is realy your request? And I have minmatar BS 5 thank you.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:24:00 - [118] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/10/2006 19:24:42 Originally by: ElCoCo Noone can instapop any BS alone duh. I was talking of fleet action. You said you need to have alpha-strike, which is already better (by quite a bit) than all other BS's. So what is realy your request? And I have minmatar BS 5 thank you. The alpha strike needs to be boosted with the added hitpoints. I cant imagine anything worse than a useless alpha strike that doesnt mean anything. Then the megathron truly becomes the king of both up close combat and long range damage per second, and there is no longer a reason for people to bring minmatar to the battleship level. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:02:00 - [119] Originally by: Jim McGregor The alpha strike needs to be boosted with the added hitpoints. I cant imagine anything worse than a useless alpha strike that doesnt mean anything. Then the megathron truly becomes the king of both up close combat and long range damage per second, and there is no longer a reason for people to bring minmatar to the battleship level. I'm not saying I disagree, just trying to add things up. What would be an "acceptable" alpha strike? 10 tempests instapopping a BS? 15 tempests? From what I recon, tux is trying to make the on-paper dps equal on similarily used platforms (fleet-sniping setup) which I don't agree to.
Trefnis Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:06:00 - [120] Originally by: ElCoCo Noone can instapop any BS alone duh. I was talking of fleet action. You said you need to have alpha-strike, which is already better (by quite a bit) than all other BS's. So what is realy your request? And I have minmatar BS 5 thank you. Problem is that the burst didnt change, and we have seccond hp buff now El. Now tell me that when cruiser have 6-7k hp instead 3-4k it doeasnt matter for burst dmg. To do the same kind of dmg as we used to do before we need to use quake, and with quake you wont hit anything if either you or target are moving, and if you cant move you really want him dead in 1 volley before he get trans. high enough. As for bs vs bs it was never that important (thou killing armas in 5 volleys was fun).

Granth Roden	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:55:00 - [121] Tuxford - you and everybody else are forgetting the basics: you are not dealing with just one gun. This is about weapons platforms and the weapons in them. A few graphics will tell you nothing. Choose a viable setup for each BS, and a different one for combat or sniping. You're a dev, get a GM to grab some setups from gate camps. Again, guns MUST FIT. All the guns must be accounted for - and if the normal build has a torpedo then that goes in. Otherwise you're discussing nothing but an abstract. Why don't you model Thoraxes (and Mallers too) fitted with small (not med) T2 guns and high-end armor? Why do people use them? Is it not strange that it can be deadlier to fit small guns that do not get the bonii than to use the regular guns? This game is great and has excellent features, but there's some holes. A great part of the problem is that its not about races - its about initial setups that became outdated or unbalanced as other details changed. People go emotional about that and forget the simple truth: somebody set this up at the beginning and its been changed and updated and re-balanced, trying to maintain a "personality". Lets have a real discussion here, he?
Lucian Alucard Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:22:00 - [122] When I can snipe in my Apoc and Geddon again and not cry when I see the damage done to armor which is usually tanked to heck these days with Enan IIs and Damage Coontrol mods I will stop stalking the devs.
Rift Scorn Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:32:00 - [123] Originally by: Lucian Alucard When I can snipe in my Apoc and Geddon again and not cry when I see the damage done to armor which is usually tanked to heck these days with Enan IIs and Damage Coontrol mods I will stop stalking the devs. I see what you're getting at, but likewise i wouldn't like to see a return to days when you see fleets of gankageddons that cut through anything like butter. That was equally imbalanced on the other way. I have an amarr character training atm, and desperatley want the abaddon to be up there with the other race ships, and look forward to using it in fleet/gangs but i think returning the 'gank' style geddon (and potentially gank abaddon set-ups) to a solopwnmobile isn't the way to go, it was nerf batted for a reason. As has already been said though, i'll await the changed before i draw any premature conclusions. That just would not be sensible. Your friendly clone activation expert, free of service to the eve community since '03
Lucian Alucard Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:04:00 - [124] Edited by: Lucian Alucard on 23/10/2006 22:07:36 Originally by: Rift Scorn Originally by: Lucian Alucard When I can snipe in my Apoc and Geddon again and not cry when I see the damage done to armor which is usually tanked to heck these days with Enan IIs and Damage Coontrol mods I will stop stalking the devs. I see what you're getting at, but likewise i wouldn't like to see a return to days when you see fleets of gankageddons that cut through anything like butter. That was equally imbalanced on the other way. I have an amarr character training atm, and desperatley want the abaddon to be up there with the other race ships, and look forward to using it in fleet/gangs but i think returning the 'gank' style geddon (and potentially gank abaddon set-ups) to a solopwnmobile isn't the way to go, it was nerf batted for a reason. As has already been said though, i'll await the changed before i draw any premature conclusions. That just would not be sensible. I aggree, I don't want to see it go to THAT extreme of a boost but you do have to admit in a fleet action the Apocs and Geddons do a damn fine job at slicing through even a Cap ships sheilds nicely but once you get to armor there is ALOT left to be desired. As I have said in other threads making Raidios do 8 Em and 12 Therm Damage would help and then leave Aurora L alone. Tachs do need more Alpha strike even with the Abaddon on the way and the cap issuse still persists. So the bonus needs to be uped what exact number it should be upped by I don't have a clue. Amar bs need more grid and CPU to be on par up close with a Meg since theres no way a geddon can fit 7 Mega Pulse IIs and Tank and still do enough damage to break a Cap Injected Megs tank. Then even if it could do that,the cap burn would be horrid as is,to be on compairison to the Meg you would need need to do the following, - Use less cap then currently - Fit Mega Pulse II and at least a 4 mod tank - Fit a full rack of Tachyon IIs, with oly ONE Reactor Control Unit - Reverse the damage spread from favoring Em to favoring Therm on the Tech One level whilst still doing both types of damage Measuring raw damage dealt and not factoring in resistances seems in my mind an issuse in the case of the Amar. Minmatar have for now great Alpha and a firm spot in a fleet fight but Amar have a more tenuous position,this should be fixed.
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:37:00 - [125] I only have one question. If 425's do the same damage as tachyons, can we reduce the grid and cap use on tachyons to match that of 425's? Thanks.
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:40:00 - [126] I wish there was some way to make high alpha significant for popping ships between rep cycles. That's the main purpose of burst damage in every other game I can think of, killing stuff before it gets healed. It'd require a sickening amount of changes and reworks though. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:55:00 - [127] The artillery balance Tux appears to be aiming at is this: in short fights, the Artillery will dominate due to high initial damage over time. If the opponent can drag a fight out long enough though, the artillery will begin to lose ground to other guns. This makes the artilleries actual DPS in a fight highly dependent upon the length of the fight and makes most dps calculations deceptive (which is why Tux included the 60 second and 120 second damage graphs).
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.23 22:57:00 - [128] Originally by: Kldraina The artillery balance Tux appears to be aiming at is this: in short fights, the Artillery will dominate due to high initial damage over time. If the opponent can drag a fight out long enough though, the artillery will begin to lose ground to other guns. This makes the artilleries actual DPS in a fight highly dependent upon the length of the fight and makes most dps calculations deceptive (which is why Tux included the 60 second and 120 second damage graphs). Artillery at short range.. noone with their head straight will get close with artilery due to its non existant tracking.
Copine Callmeknau The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 23:27:00 - [129] This is just silly, boosting Artillery still leaves Amarr and AC's badly nerfed. Don't put the HP boost in Tux, nobody wants it. -- Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you where tuxford.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:16:00 - [130] Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me

murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:42:00 - [131] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. By the looks of the graph looks like everything is just fine. Given that the tachs are tier 3 guns and are supposed to be doing more dps. And 1400s DPS isn't that much off of 425s. At least the lot of you make me laugh. Because I said so...
H Zub Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.10.24 01:01:00 - [132] More hitpoints and far longer fights. Have you thought about small gangs and solo pvp? The hit point changes will mean death to smaller pvp groups. Wich is a shame if you ask me. Not to mention all the problems with lag, whats going to happend with more and larger blobs (to be able to finish off targets)? I will wait and see, but if it means you need to be in a blob to kill a battleship or 2. Then I am out for good. o/ The Hunter Hypnotized
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.24 02:17:00 - [133] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/10/2006 02:20:20 Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. My Graph. Don't use graphs you haven't made and don't know what they show/might be wrong with them. I'll give you a hint what that graph is to show... look at name. Hence I used Normalized mode as the comparisons being made didn't have to be accurate as the difference was quite large. Reason I haven't posted it, is due to that Normalized setting in flight time which does something stange (while it helps level out missiles in the graphs) to reloads/dot calcs and increases them to try and remove the "stairs" look when using missiles ect. Where that graph you linked to shows 3% difference it is actually, 9% different in DOT terms with equal ammo. If we were to look at EMP vs AM that difference would become 16% less DOT. Thats with idea conditions, and assumming optimal and no tracking issues. So in the best case senario for a Pest using Arty is that it has the lowest DOT of between 9% and 16%. Thats before falloff is taken into account or that with the lower tracking there is a period of a Tempest using arty missing when other ships can still hit. ps. I reserve right to change my numbers when I wake up in the morning.... eyes are closing.... zzzzzzz ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
CaperPuts	Posted - 2006.10.24 04:07:00 - [134] I... I love you, Tuxford. begins training for T2 artillery again And thank you for looking into Amarr as well.
Ephemeron Crimson Crusaders Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.24 04:30:00 - [135] I think it's a big mistake to try analyze the weapons using their stock t1 variants and 0% range ammo. Who uses that crap? only noobs. Are we trying to balance the game for the noobs? The game should be balanced for the vets, for the end game. Because you may achieve some good balance for the noobs but in the process make certain vets way overpowered, or underpowered, and they'd totally pwn all your noobs that you try to balance the game for. All graphs should use t2 weapons and t2 ammo! And level 5 skills should be assumed.
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 05:33:00 - [136] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. lol. You've been on an anti arty/ac soapbox for 3 years now. You're choice of ships at this point in time offers you a multitude of options. 1v1.. fleet.. gank.. and excels at all of them. Only Raynor has done a better job of protecting his precious.... but not by much tbh. I know you don't "GET" it, and will refuse to, but sitting at range, with 6 weapons doing mediocre damage after 60sec with a boatload of cap you can't use anyway, and two empty highslots is not an advantage. It never has been. It never will be. Minnie are flawed at their very concept, and Tux/ccp won't ever address that so they instead try to relive the symptoms of their problems as opposed to the core of their problems... as the latter would cause reblalancing on a much larger scale. Can't wait for people to figure out ac pest if borked as well now losing it's 1 and only advantage.. 1 multi heh. Shouldn't you be in yet another thread making sure people know CCP fixed ECM because of you? Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.10.24 05:50:00 - [137] Edited by: Kldraina on 24/10/2006 05:54:59 Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon Artillery at short range.. noone with their head straight will get close with artilery due to its non existant tracking. I was talking about time, not range. The minmatar concept can work, it just requires a lot of attention to maintain. Basically the concept is this: Minmatar will do more damage than other races in fights of less than __ seconds. Between __ and __ seconds, they are about equal, and in fights longer than __ seconds, they deal less damage. The trick, is to balance out the numbers, such that most fights are in the Equal Damage range.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 06:03:00 - [138] Originally by: ProphetGuru Can't wait for people to figure out ac pest if borked as well now losing it's 1 and only advantage.. 1 multi heh. Wont matter anyway since the Hyperion will most likely have the same amount of meds as the Tempest, and with its higher damage output it will likely wipe the floor with the Tempest. Im not sure about minmatar being flawed, but I think the minmatar battleships needs a boost since most fights take place at close range, and they cant use their speed advantage to fight gallente at 30 km without faction warp disruptors. Actually I would like tech 2 warp disruptors (30 km) in the game SoonÖ to allow minmatar to get a chance to fight the gallente blasterboats at a range they pick themselfs. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 06:38:00 - [139] I dont mind increasing hp for longer fights, however 50% increase is to much. Also i think hardeners and plates are going to be increased as well. That makes things even worse. I think destroyers/dictors should get an increase in hp by 50%. BC/command ships should get an agility bonus (which they are) and af should get a afterburner bonus to make them more useful for larger engagments.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 06:53:00 - [140] Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 06:53:47 Originally by: ProphetGuru Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. lol. You've been on an anti arty/ac soapbox for 3 years now. You're choice of ships at this point in time offers you a multitude of options. 1v1.. fleet.. gank.. and excels at all of them. Only Raynor has done a better job of protecting his precious.... but not by much tbh. I know you don't "GET" it, and will refuse to, but sitting at range, with 6 weapons doing mediocre damage after 60sec with a boatload of cap you can't use anyway, and two empty highslots is not an advantage. It never has been. It never will be. Minnie are flawed at their very concept, and Tux/ccp won't ever address that so they instead try to relive the symptoms of their problems as opposed to the core of their problems... as the latter would cause reblalancing on a much larger scale. Can't wait for people to figure out ac pest if borked as well now losing it's 1 and only advantage.. 1 multi heh. Shouldn't you be in yet another thread making sure people know CCP fixed ECM because of you? 6.9/(23.63.75)6 = 2.336 3.3/9.56*7 = 2.416 2.416/2.336 = 1.034 How exactly is it that a megathron doesn't do 3% more DPS than a tempest? Yes, I crossposted in the ECM thread, as I posted in the one here before noticing the 'exact same thread' in general discussion. Anything wrong with that? And I said I was happy with it as it was quite in line with my suggestions. Anything wrong with that? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me

Juan Andalusian TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 07:08:00 - [141] Originally by: ProphetGuru Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 00:17:42 Ok, so here's a link to another graph (not made by me) OMG boost minmatar, we suck!!! OMG boost amarr, we suck!!! OMG nerf gallante, they are overoverpowererered!!! Or something like that. At least the lot of you make me laugh. lol. You've been on an anti arty/ac soapbox for 3 years now. You're choice of ships at this point in time offers you a multitude of options. 1v1.. fleet.. gank.. and excels at all of them. Only Raynor has done a better job of protecting his precious.... but not by much tbh. I know you don't "GET" it, and will refuse to, but sitting at range, with 6 weapons doing mediocre damage after 60sec with a boatload of cap you can't use anyway, and two empty highslots is not an advantage. It never has been. It never will be. Minnie are flawed at their very concept, and Tux/ccp won't ever address that so they instead try to relive the symptoms of their problems as opposed to the core of their problems... as the latter would cause reblalancing on a much larger scale. Can't wait for people to figure out ac pest if borked as well now losing it's 1 and only advantage.. 1 multi heh. Shouldn't you be in yet another thread making sure people know CCP fixed ECM because of you? You are wrong PG. Pain is meant to be felt
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.24 07:47:00 - [142] The Alpha-Strike of Artillerys is overrated a bit imho, of course you deal the damage a Megathron needs 30 seconds for in the first volley, but in the end some beliebe the killing speed in fleetbattles is slower, since primarys get locked by so many ships, they pop immediately no matter how you look at it. So in the long-term, the alpha-strike of artillery is no real advantage, since when the target is dead, the unactivated artillerys automaticaly get free for the next target; while on the other hand rails or lasers get a faster targetswitch, making it almost the same considering current fleetbattlemechanics. The only thing making a pretty small difference is lag, since railsgunships and laserutilizers get more locking-lag in between their shots. basicaly, battlebehavior will stay almost the same like before. A 5% increase seems perfectly fine for me to compensate a bit of the fact that the lengthened battletimes will flatten the damagedistribution curve closer to a linear line. a BS with high RoF and low damage deals quiet a constant amount of damage over time:------------------------------- a BS with low RoF and high damage will start with making more damage, then less damage, then more damage than its couterpart damage over time:/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ increasing total armor for all ships by 50% would flatten the secondary sinus-like curve, making the characteristical specialty of the weapon less strong. an increase in damage and decrease of RoF would be quiet fitting for evening that fact out and strenghtening the characteristical anomaly of the weapontype again. Since 5% is by far not enough to even the loss of the weapons characteristical attribute out, a lack of RoF decrease seems fitting. I hope I wrote that understandable enough, it¦s difficult to translate analysis into english. kind regards, Skeltek
Emeline Cabernet Amarr KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:21:00 - [143] Edited by: Emeline Cabernet on 24/10/2006 08:21:32 hi, oh and mom said amarr rocks!!!!!!!
Gyro DuAquin1 Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.24 08:57:00 - [144] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: dalman Why does your graph has the megathron +25% bonus but not the tempest +25% bonus in it??? It's stupid at best. Remake the graph with the +25% arty bonus from tempest. He's taking standard ship bonuses into account. Howitzers are nearly guaranteed to be fit on ships with 5% rate of fire, while all Gallente ships have 5% damage bonus. However, a 1400mm is not guaranteed to be fit on a Tempest. Oh, and his graph is per turret, not per ship. (Assumption: you are commenting Tuxford's OP) That's ***** **** tbh. A 1400 will be fit on either: tempest - 6 guns with 25% damage and ROF bonus or Maelstrom - 8 guns and 25% ROF bonus. A 425 fitted on a either: megahtron - 7 guns with 25% damage bonus or Rokh - 8 guns no damage bonus. With current** stats, the DPS output for these ships are in order: 1. Maelstrom 2. Megathron 3. Tempest 4. Rokh The DPS difference between Megathron and Tempest is 3%. Quite amazing how you can whine so much for so little. Yes, that's without reload time. But then the arties don't use cap. And that megathron needs to carry thousands of ammo-rounds. what i dont get about ur list The tempest has 6 guns, with a damage bonus of 5 and bs level 5, it has the output of 8 guns. As the Maelstrom has 8 guns, and a rof bonus - which equals the tempest one - isnt it like a tempest BS level 5 with 8 guns and a defensiv bonus? so how can the maelstrom have a higher output then the tempest? Imo when u have a tempest at bs level 5 its the same damage output, with less guns. Or am i mistaken here? About the hitpoint bonus - as all of us get a 25% bonus it just that fights last longer - dont assume that only the enemie has 25% more hp, u also have. In large battles it wont make a difference cause a fleetbs (no hardeners, max damage) will be insta popped by 8 t2 max sklled tempest, so now its 10, of those :)
Zyrla Bladestorm Minmatar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:22:00 - [145] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Kosakova Intrinnae	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:33:00 - [146] Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. these are wrong btw, 25% reduction of rof is diffren from a damage increase it acturle gives you 33% more damage over time, when combined with a dammage bonus the increase of damage becomes 1.66%. heres a little example, 10x damage mod, 10 rof, before skills, 12.5x damage mod, 7.5 rof after skills, 12.5/7.5 = 1.6667 so tempest 6x 1.6667 = 10 Megathron 7x 1.25 = 8.75 Maelstrom = 8x 1.33 = 10.64 but artillery have crap dps to begin with so, no other ship in the game wants to fit them, so they are only useful on minmatar ships.
O Thief The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:37:00 - [147] Originally by: Granth Roden Tuxford - you and everybody else are forgetting the basics: you are not dealing with just one gun. This is about weapons platforms and the weapons in them. A few graphics will tell you nothing. Choose a viable setup for each BS, and a different one for combat or sniping. You're a dev, get a GM to grab some setups from gate camps. Again, guns MUST FIT. All the guns must be accounted for - and if the normal build has a torpedo then that goes in. Otherwise you're discussing nothing but an abstract. Why don't you model Thoraxes (and Mallers too) fitted with small (not med) T2 guns and high-end armor? Why do people use them? Is it not strange that it can be deadlier to fit small guns that do not get the bonii than to use the regular guns? This game is great and has excellent features, but there's some holes. A great part of the problem is that its not about races - its about initial setups that became outdated or unbalanced as other details changed. People go emotional about that and forget the simple truth: somebody set this up at the beginning and its been changed and updated and re-balanced, trying to maintain a "personality". Lets have a real discussion here, he? this is a good post, pay attention people.
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:46:00 - [148] With the new changes is gonna take twice tiem to braek someones tank and missiles isn't good for that already so let's make rof on cruise/siege launchers to 6/9s. They have teh lowest alpha since it takes so long to hit so lets make them go 20km/s too
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:00:00 - [149] I'm glad I'm balanced Amarr user Part of forum movement known as "It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö" To be Kali, or not to be Lagi
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:13:00 - [150] Originally by: Kosakova Intrinnae Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. these are wrong btw, 25% reduction of rof is diffren from a damage increase it acturle gives you 33% more damage over time, when combined with a dammage bonus the increase of damage becomes 1.66%. heres a little example, 10x damage mod, 10 rof, before skills, 12.5x damage mod, 7.5 rof after skills, 12.5/7.5 = 1.6667 so tempest 6x 1.6667 = 10 Megathron 7x 1.25 = 8.75 Maelstrom = 8x 1.33 = 10.64 but artillery have crap dps to begin with so, no other ship in the game wants to fit them, so they are only useful on minmatar ships. That's wrong, too. You can't have Megathron in that list since it's got completely different turrets. Different damage types, cap usage, and base dps per turret. Effective number of turret comparisons only work by class. By the way, what's so wrong with dividents? Maelstrom = 8 / 0.75 = 10.67 projectiles As for the list, I believe it'll rather be something like, in terms of dps for long range: Abaddon (rof bonus and 8 turrets, not that cap holds) Hyperion (damage bonus on 8 projectiles) Armageddon Maelstrom Apocalypse (if you cram on 8 tachs, that is) Megathron Rokh (it hasn't got a damage bonus, but you can't beat it at range!) Tempest (might be above the Rokh, actually) Typhoon Raven Dominix (it wasn't meant for long range, anyway) Scorpion (it might do least damage, but it can jam you up and beyond 200km) - What am I listening to?

dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:12:00 - [151] Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 11:13:14 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Kosakova Intrinnae Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. these are wrong btw, 25% reduction of rof is diffren from a damage increase it acturle gives you 33% more damage over time, when combined with a dammage bonus the increase of damage becomes 1.66%. heres a little example, 10x damage mod, 10 rof, before skills, 12.5x damage mod, 7.5 rof after skills, 12.5/7.5 = 1.6667 so tempest 6x 1.6667 = 10 Megathron 7x 1.25 = 8.75 Maelstrom = 8x 1.33 = 10.64 but artillery have crap dps to begin with so, no other ship in the game wants to fit them, so they are only useful on minmatar ships. That's wrong, too. You can't have Megathron in that list since it's got completely different turrets. Different damage types, cap usage, and base dps per turret. Effective number of turret comparisons only work by class. By the way, what's so wrong with dividents? Maelstrom = 8 / 0.75 = 10.67 projectiles) Ehh, there's nothing wrong with just stating how many 'effective guns' each ship has. You just need to know how to analyze it. Originally by: Ithildin As for the list, I believe it'll rather be something like, in terms of dps for long range: Abaddon (rof bonus and 8 turrets, not that cap holds) Hyperion (damage bonus on 8 projectiles) Armageddon Maelstrom Apocalypse (if you cram on 8 tachs, that is) Megathron Rokh (it hasn't got a damage bonus, but you can't beat it at range!) Tempest (might be above the Rokh, actually) Typhoon Raven Dominix (it wasn't meant for long range, anyway) Scorpion (it might do least damage, but it can jam you up and beyond 200km) Your list is quite wrong though. The list without any boost to projectiles will be: Abaddon (rof bonus and 8 turrets, not that cap holds) Armageddon Hyperion (damage bonus on 8 hybrids)(but supposed to have such short targeting range it can't be used in this comparision) Apocalypse (if you cram on 8 tachs, that is) Maelstrom Megathron Tempest Rokh ... skipped the rest, hardly any point in arguing the DPS of missile boats (which would be higher than Rokh but takes time to reach target) Notable: difference between mega and tempest is 3% difference between hyperion and apocalypse is 1% Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:16:00 - [152] Yes, nothing wrong with analysing number of effective guns, as long as you don't think that one effective energy turret can compare to one effective projectile - they just aren't equal anywhere. - What am I listening to?
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:28:00 - [153] I really stopped caring. Its good that tux realizes that if Arties sux they need a boost. I just wonder how on earth he began realizing so fast. Other races has sucked longtime, Projectiles gets a boost already before the changes are in effect
Silver Lady Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:28:00 - [154] Just great, from one bad thing to the next, whats the point of boosting ship hp by 50% if you are just going to beef minmitar damage and nullify it? Just remove the 50% ship hp increase and give minmatar their beef anyway, even though they dont need it. Poor amarr with their cap sucking lasers, wheres their beef? The gimps of EVE get even more gimpier.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:39:00 - [155] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 24/10/2006 11:39:30 Thanks for dealing with this Tuxford. I will suggest an original fix: - give the Tempest (and Machariel) a 7th turret slot - reduce projectile ammo size by 50% That's it. ;-)
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:47:00 - [156] Originally by: Pan Crastus Edited by: Pan Crastus on 24/10/2006 11:39:30 Thanks for dealing with this Tuxford. I will suggest an original fix: - give the Tempest (and Machariel) a 7th turret slot - reduce projectile ammo size by 50% That's it. ;-) Rofles.. how do you plan on fitting 7 1400s? (you need an RCU just to fit 6) Anyway Give the Artillery a bit moe damage and I think most of us artilley users will still love our "special" guns that dont hit. But might hit... and omg there is going to be hell wehn they hit.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:51:00 - [157] increase howi rof by 20% and damage by 25%. That should balance things out. (dont beat me if im wrong)
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:02:00 - [158] Originally by: Kamikaaazi increase howi rof by 20% and damage by 25%. That should balance things out. (dont beat me if im wrong) This would increase Howitzer dps by 4.17% - What am I listening to?
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:04:00 - [159] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Kamikaaazi increase howi rof by 20% and damage by 25%. That should balance things out. (dont beat me if im wrong) This would increase Howitzer dps by 4.17% well yeah, but you would still have really nice alpha strike. Hell, increase rof by 40% and damage by 50% if that makes you feel better :D
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:06:00 - [160] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Kamikaaazi increase howi rof by 20% and damage by 25%. That should balance things out. (dont beat me if im wrong) This would increase Howitzer dps by 4.17% well yeah, but you would still have really nice alpha strike. Hell, increase rof by 40% and damage by 50% if that makes you feel better :D This would increase damage by 7.14%. Very close to what team Scrapheap Challenge wishes. - What am I listening to?

Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:47:00 - [161] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/10/2006 12:52:14 Originally by: dalman 1400t2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63.75)6 = 2.336 425t2 on thron: 3.3/9.567 = 2.416 2.416/2.336 = 1.034 How exactly is it that a megathron doesn't do 3% more DPS than a tempest? (except for reloading) And what's this about "DOT terms with equal ammo"? The most common used T1 ammo in long-range setups are long range ammos, with which projectiles outdamage hybrids. Ignoring skills 4tl. Max skill numbers: All with 3 damage mods. for realistic setup/situation comparison which I know you like. Tempest 1400mm T2: ROF - 9.75 DMG - 17.24x Mega 425mm T2: ROF - 5.26 DMG - 8.24x Geddon Megabeam T2: ROF - 3.72 DMG - 7.19x Now using those numbers and T2 ranged ammo "cos who compares noob T1 ammo"... yeah cos everyone has t2 ammo... nevermind, lets not get balance for noobs using t1 or that t2 ammo might not be best for the situation ect ect. Using ranged T2 ammo: Tempest: 381 DPS - 3723 Alpha - 37230 Dmg per clip - 107 sec Firing Time - 346 DOT Mega: 394 dps - 2077 Alpha - 83094 Dmg per clip - 220 sec firing time - 376 DOT Geddon: 487 dps - 1812 Alpha - ermmm crystals being a bit random DOT is as good as equal DPS... So taking the DPS (ignored reloads) the Tempest has 96.7% of the DPS of the Mega, 3% difference. Now including reloads (which takes arty the longest as the rof is largest so takes longest to realise it has to reload) the tempest now has 91.9% of the Megas DPS. The Tempest has to reload after 107 seconds of constant firing, at that point it is already behind in DPS terms, then the reload puts it further behind. The fact it reloads 2x as much as a Mega (220 seconds per clip) lowers that DPS even more. So if you want to use "we run out of cap" as an arguement you want to use DOT as that is the most accurate comparison for the time scale for megas/geddons to run out of cap. Originally by:* dalman I do find this situation hilarious. With the suggestion ppl are whining for: rail boats will have lowest DPS of fleet ships. rail boats will by far have the lowest alpha-strike. rail boats will have the same cap issues as amarr - with cap running dry in long fights. rail boats will have the logistic problem of consuming thousands of ammo-rounds. rail boats will have second best tracking behind amarr. rail boats will have the best range, but this can not be used! All fleets consists of different ships and are positioned at ranges to fit lasers/projectiles. So your saying that having same dps and more range is not a benifit? Tell that to the Amarr's complaining about there "short" range guns which have more range and less dps than blasters.... I bet then range is a benifit isn't it? You'll find the reasonable suggestions try to reduce the DOT difference without making the DPS highest.... Such as: ammo size reduction (will help carrying enough ammo for AC's with the increased HP) Loads more ammo, so less reloads. DMG mod increase to still make alpha strike effective (not insta popping everything as some people think they can...) Make the ROF slower to balance the DPS (this would lower the DOT to since time it takes to fire again after the last shot will be longer before it realises it has to reload). AMMO PROBLEMS FROM RAILS!!?!? LMAO yeah, use AC's with the smallest racial cargo bay then complain about ammo use. Mega's alpha is second with lasers third. Lets not forget than Gallente are a BLASTER race, Caldari are the snipers... Your complaining about a ship that gets ROF and DMG bonus to get same dps as a ship with just one DMG bonus, plus tracking bonus so it can hit more... Obviously anyone who questions Gallante being great at everything is a whiner... ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Al Haquis Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:54:00 - [162] You guys seriusly need to get laid. With love from Al Haquis
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:55:00 - [163] this is why i and others i know left eve after 2 years of play. sheep following sheep ftl just look at the ecm changes still waiting for decent balance and more pvp before i return
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:02:00 - [164] Originally by: Al Haquis You guys seriusly need to get laid. With love from Al Haquis Ow. Hot coffee burns the sinuses. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Capt Harlock Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:19:00 - [165] BEHOLD!!!! I bring you the general purpose gun!!! And!!!!!! The general purpose ship they are called the cookie cutter modules and ships they all do the same.... problem solved. Everyone will be happy then. Oh wait no they won't. Tuxford you may just have the impossible job m8 balancing races that are so different must be one big pita. Good luck.
Zyrla Bladestorm Minmatar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:30:00 - [166] Originally by: Kosakova Intrinnae Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. these are wrong btw, 25% reduction of rof is diffren from a damage increase it acturle gives you 33% more damage over time, when combined with a dammage bonus the increase of damage becomes 1.66%. heres a little example, 10x damage mod, 10 rof, before skills, 12.5x damage mod, 7.5 rof after skills, 12.5/7.5 = 1.6667 so tempest 6x 1.6667 = 10 Megathron 7x 1.25 = 8.75 Maelstrom = 8x 1.33 = 10.64 but artillery have crap dps to begin with so, no other ship in the game wants to fit them, so they are only useful on minmatar ships. Posting before being entirely awake for the lose, apparently . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:07:00 - [167] Originally by: Al Haquis You guys seriusly need to get laid. With love from Al Haquis I think that could cause problems in the middle of a lab plus the GF wouldn't be to impressed since she ain't here. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:10:00 - [168] Originally by: dalman 1400t2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63.75)6 = 2.336 425t2 on thron: 3.3/9.567 = 2.416 2.416/2.336 = 1.034 How exactly is it that a megathron doesn't do 3% more DPS than a tempest? (except for reloading) See, this is the problem with using a simple set of numbers either FOR or AGAINST changes like this. Yes, with your numbers the difference is 3%, and that translates how when it comes to application? How long does that 3% really come into play please? Reloading matters. Tracking matters. Fighting in fall off all the time for reduced effectiveness of hits matters. The way any of you (for or against) use numbers in a vaccum to make or disprove your arguments is part of the reason I avoid this forum most of the time after so long. Quote:* You're (PG) a common poster on the alliance/corp section PG. Take a look at the corp recognition threads, where BoB members (dunno if you were actually one of them) write stuff like "scary tempest fleets" as description of Catalysm Enterprises and ASW. How the heck can their tempest fleets be scary if the tempest is so far behind other ships? Not sure I would advocate using anything from that forum as a line of reason for ship balance but I do understand what you mean. Don't believe I ever said that, but I recall seeing it as well. Mostly before the last hp increase right? Besides, with G it was more a matter of the fact that they had 90% tempests with ecm, not so much about their dmg. Quote: You know how unhappy I am with T2 ammo for example, So say we all... p.s. juan how exactly? this isin't the corp and alliance forums... "you're wrong" doesn't quite cut it here. elaborate or stfu Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:29:00 - [169] Originally by: Sandra Tseng Just a curious question, I have decided not to get involved in this "Boost-Amarr" campaigh - but: Do you factor in that when ammo runs out for Blasters/rails, Missiles, Auotcannons/martillery you have to wait 10 seconds to reload? 10 seconds while the amarr ship just sits and blasts and blasts away? 10 seconds gets 20 seconds after a while - then 30. 30 seconds is a long time to sit and tank while you get pummeled by tachyon lasers all the time... just a curious question.. _ I guess you've never tried to use Tachs on a Geddon then :/ it'l be out of cap long before you reload (unless you want to use an Injector or 4-5 cap mods just to be able to keep guns active) the ROF bonus it gets does help greatly with damage but otherwise just makes it use more cap over time, compared to gallente's Damage bonus which -lucky for them-, dosent get that
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:56:00 - [170] played a bit with 5% bonus and i'm not that sure is enought to balance these weapons... the no cap in long range fights is useless so i will not consider it a bonus and arty suffer from other problems and not just for dps arty is also the long range weapon with shortest range and worst tracking. and on top of that it doesn't get full benefit from tracking mods (as a big part of its range is due to falloff) for minnie ships are also a bit problematic to fit as, many times, minnies have PG "balanced" to take in account the low PG requirements of autocannons. to do a crappy example is it like to have neutrons that do less base dps than ACs. is it true that some minnie ships have 2 bonuses but we also see that the pest have 1-2 less guns than other ships and this balance out the higher dps that 2 dmg bonuses gives. so even in this case it ends with the usual problem that minnie ship need 2 bonuses to be comparable to other ships in dps and other ships use just 1 bonus and have the second bonus "free" for other nice boosts (as tanking) so imo as alpha is going to be almost neglected arty need some serious rework... 5% damage imo is not enought at all. i think the "progression" should be similar to close range... if arty is the shortest range (as it is now) its base dps should be at least comparable to 425mm base dps. so the solutions imo are 2... - keep it as now but boost the dps even more than now - boost it just by 5% but give also a big tracking and range bonuses, to give it better range and accuracy than 425mm (even with tracking mods) another thing that i think is to consider is res... for short range (imo) res are not that important, but in long range you can't really tank your ships, but just boost hps or res a bit (exept for the rokh that probably will be an awesome tank ) arty atm is quite effective because all fleet ships are "armor oriented" ships so the low dps is balanced both by alpha and better damage type. but with the introduction of the rokh i suspect that the situation will change and many (if not most) ships will be "shield oriented"... my fear is that with kali arty will suffer from the same problems as lasers but whitout its huge base damage potential.

dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:10:00 - [171] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Ignoring skills 4tl. If you don't understand that if we have two variables x and y and then multiply both with the same numbers z getting zx and zy, then zx/zy = x/y... ...then perhaps you should reconsider if balance discussions are for you. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:27:00 - [172] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/10/2006 16:29:05 Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 15:33:25 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Ignoring skills 4tl. edited to less harsh version:p Yea, and now: try figure out why it took you one page to get to exactly the same result I got in 2 lines. Because lowering the ROF though ermmm skills, changes the reload points... affecting the DOT. Making the actual damage output ermm not 3% like you said because of said reloads... For someone who wants accurate realistic situations/setups then not using real skills makes you a bit of a hypocrite, using accuracy when it suits you. Still the fact is that DOT is the "best case", with the lower tracking and range there IS a period where Mega has a clear difference from the Pest. I myself don't want a DPS increase, I want a DOT increase through more damage per clip. Be this through increased clip size and/or dmg mod increase/slower rof I don't care. I just want that sole advantage of alpha strike to still have some meaning with the extra HP. Is this so wrong? ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:34:00 - [173] Originally by: dalman 1400t2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63.75)6 = 2.336 425t2 on thron: 3.3/9.567 = 2.416 2.416/2.336 = 1.034 How exactly is it that a megathron doesn't do 3% more DPS than a tempest? (except for reloading) And what's this about "DOT terms with equal ammo"? The most common used T1 ammo in long-range setups are long range ammos, with which projectiles outdamage hybrids. 1. Fitting. Tempest To fit 6 x 1400 II you need AWU lvl 5. To fit some kind of tank into tempest - you will need to install rcu. Still with 5 lows - you are unable to install good tank. Mega You CAN fit 7 x 425 II AND 2 plates AND EAN AND dmg mods \ tracking ench. 2. Optimal. Tempest With 2 x tracking comps + 1 tracking ench i have an optimal of 155km. Mega With 1 tracking comp you are allready beating tempest optimal. Add tracking enh. to make minnie pilots cry. 3. Tracking. Tempest unable to hit *, if you are shooting non-battleship target. 3 volleys on blackbird 150km from me, ** yeah ! Mega doing fine with small targets. 4. Capacitor. Tempest full cap, and you are unable to spend it, because of powergrid issues for installing large repair. Mega - cap starting to break after 5 minutes of fighting. (When you are fighting competent opponent - this isn`t issue at all, since you can play "duckshooting" only when fight ascn). 5. Damage Tempest : Amarr, shoot this newb allready, i need to damage his armor. Mega : f1 - f7. So : More tank, more damage, more tracking, more optimal, prefferable (at least for me) damage types. And who is looking pathetic ? Rage and Terror - making people quit EVE.
Tyler Lowe Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:41:00 - [174] Good grief, give the guy a break already Tux, I'm not much for graphs and figures, but intuitively, a 5% damage boost to the arty pieces themselves along side a 20% decrease in ammo size "feels" about right. I guess the only real question I have is when can we expect to see this begin some testing for a more solid feel of where we stand with arty after the expansion's release? J.A.F.O.
Octavio Santillian	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:45:00 - [175] Originally by: Tuxford Lets start this by taking a look at... Thanks for taking a look at this Tux. I donÆt think this can be the final word, but the fact that you are looking at it is comforting. A 5% increase in arty was in order BEFORE the proposed HP boost. With a 50% more everthing, it will be very hard for any Alpha based ship (be it an arty boat or a Destroyer) to do its thing. It seems this is an attempt to rework Arty into being more like other long range guns (i.e. similar DPS, slight Alpha advantage, slight range disadvantage). I still have grave reservation about the HP boost. Kali is looking very scary for the Minmatar (and yes the Amarr, but this is a Matari thread). As IÆm sure you know, we are not happy with our tier III; it simply is not a significantly better fleet ship than the Tempest for the cost and sacrifice of two very, very useful high slots. The HP boost is going to adversely affect us in myriad ways (e.g. hit and run, alpha, ammo use, the general Matari disadvantage in tanking will increase, no more stababonds, etc.). ECM is going to become a power club for the Caldari and harder to use for the rest of the races. Now I know you say you are looking into a lot of these issues, but with a release date looming it is very hard to believe you can pay proper attention to the massive changes that are being put in place. Please, I implore you and the other Devs to take your time, listen (even though many comments are crap), and get it right the first time. We pay for this game, and it sucks to have to wait on a fix. In any case, again, thanks for reassuring us that you realize there is indeed a problem with artillery. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:02:00 - [176] Well this is a car crash of a thread. All I'm going to say is: Listen, you dumb morons, just because Tux posts about one thing does not mean he doesn't care or isn't thinking about other issues as well. This is a post adressing artillery issues with the HP increase. That does not mean that Amarr is being ignored. Please feel free to mention Amarr issues as a side note in your posts if you feel they're important and/or related (as I do). Please don't feel free to take a single posts about a single issue as damming evidence that other issues are being ignored or that the sky is falling. Have a nice day. - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:29:00 - [177] Tux, if you manage to find this post amongst all the others in this thread, a couple of questions: 1) Did you manage to re-graph yet? 2) Are any of these suggestions making sense? Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Sergej Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:34:00 - [178] Dear Tuxfor, Please do the same graph for weapons fitted on the current tier 2 BS (well except amarr:P, tier 1 for the damn slavers and I have no idea how tier3 factor in), max number of weapons possible. On a long range setup, you always go for full guns. Same argument of course does not apply to ACs/blasters, as you can ue the utility slots there. Could be my math is off, but according to my numbers long term DPS of tempest is more than 20% lower than that of other long range BS. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll shut up for ever, but please do the graphs. Not to mention we get faloff instead of optimal, which doesn't get that nice *4 bonus when you go from short range to long range... That's a different story, though. Thanks, Sergej
d'Mortaigne PAIN.	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:14:00 - [179] Hurray! Another boost not related to Amarr! Hurray! --------------- It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Too Kind	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:47:00 - [180] Edited by: Too Kind on 24/10/2006 20:53:02 Edited by: Too Kind on 24/10/2006 20:52:11 Don't know, if it's been said already, but I suppose the tables are dps figures. Then I wonder if they are correct at ranges greater opti-range. It looks like the dps at opti-range + falloff is at 50% of the maximum dps. That can't be true as I understand it, because the max-damage has already fallen to 50% at this point, but there is another chance-to hit penalty of 50%, so the dps suffers a double penalty and must be worse than 50% at opti-range plus falloff ( probably down to around 25% already and all dps curves should fall down faster. And that makes a difference, especially if you look at the blue curve and compare it to the red one and imagine, they'd fall faster. ^^) Or do I miss something ? -------------------------- Post with your main !!!111

Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:22:00 - [181] I must confess that I've skipped over most of this thread, but do Tuxford's figures take into account the fact that everyone has insane EM resistances? Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Yamaeda	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:26:00 - [182] Originally by: Too Kind It looks like the dps at opti-range + falloff is at 50% of the maximum dps. That can't be true as I understand it, because the max-damage has already fallen to 50% at this point, but there is another chance-to hit penalty of 50%, so the dps suffers a double penalty and must be worse than 50% at opti-range plus falloff ( probably down to around 25% already and all dps curves should fall down faster. And that makes a difference, especially if you look at the blue curve and compare it to the red one and imagine, they'd fall faster. ^^) Or do I miss something ? Range doesn't affect hit-damage at all, if you hit, you hit for full damage. 1 Falloff incurs -50% hit chance, thus -50% dps. (there's some theories that it's actually lower due to lesser wreckings also, but even if true it's close enough) /Y
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:57:00 - [183] Actually range does affect damage. You get a LOT more well aimed and excellent hits within optimal than you get within falloff. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
haq aan	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:04:00 - [184] Originally by: d'Mortaigne Hurray! Another boost not related to Amarr! Hurray! this thread is not about a Boost! ..Its about a Fix.So please, i really hate to read ' but minnies got a %x bonus,..we want too '
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:11:00 - [185] Edited by: Sir JoJo on 24/10/2006 23:11:39 hell i dont even want more dammage, i just want a larger alpha strike.. so if some wanna do the math fine.. but id like to see artys do like 50% more dammage a shot and then increase the ROF to fit it. 50% might seem high i am nit sure. but whit 50% more hp all over it might be fine its a disgrace for Minmatar
Sight Unseen Amarr Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:11:00 - [186] Dont complain about amarr damage type, hopefully this fix will come in time. This is about DPS and how the turrets compare. Charts seem to be doing an effective job at this, but you have to factor in all the variables, and anyone can tell eve combat has a ton of variables. One issue I would also loved addressed is the amarr cap problem, I'm sure you devs are aware of it, but I just want to /sign fixing the fact that lasers eat too much cap even WITH a dedicated ship bonus to reducing it. --------------------------------------------- "Whats wrong little girl? Hard knock life?" "A roflcopter killed my entire family..." Oo!
Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:32:00 - [187] Originally by: Sight Unseen Dont complain about amarr damage type, hopefully this fix will come in time. SNIP We've been complaining for 6 months and there has still been no official word on any change, apart from a vague mention in the dev chat. Whereas this thread has come a few days after the HP boost post. You'd wonder why those who fly amarr are complaining really........
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2006.10.25 05:43:00 - [188] I have also skipped through this thread, but I'd like to adress the no cap thing. Apologies if this has already been mentioned. With Minmatar ships, they are naturally the weakest HP wise of any race, with the smallest cap (because even before the boost of no cap, T1 and T2 projectiles used 1 cap to fire). We also tend to have a more even spread of med and low slots, meaning that the Gallente and Amarr have more low slots to fit their cap mods into, and still maintain a half decent tank. Where as with a Minmatar ship, to fit damage, tank and cap mods into lows would be impossible. You'd only get 2 of the 3. The only ship we have with 7 lows is the 'phoon, and that has some issues, and isn't a long range sniper anyway, otherwise it's the 'pest with 6 lows. For me 6 lows is enough to mount a decent omni tank and nothing else. With comp skills and T2 armour hardners, I can probably drop that to 5 slots for an omni tanbk that wouldn't be quite as good over all the resists. This leaves ships like the 'geddon, apoc', and sniperthron 3 / 2 / 2 slots respectiveley for cap / damage mods. Are we still overpowered in that area? (I'm not actually sure myself, so I'm wearng my asbestos undies ) Akkarin Linkage <3 - Immy
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:57:00 - [189] Originally by: **c Originally by:** Sight Unseen Dont complain about amarr damage type, hopefully this fix will come in time. SNIP We've been complaining for 6 months and there has still been no official word on any change, apart from a vague mention in the dev chat. Whereas this thread has come a few days after the HP boost post. You'd wonder why those who fly amarr are complaining really........ selective memory ftw, we already complained a year ago in RMR that minni alpha strike got nerfed with the hp boost back then + introduction of damage control and they did nothing to compensate back then because they didnt feel the need that an answer came relatively fast shows that they were themselves already aware of this possible problem and had already talked about it dont ever think that the complaints caused the introduction of this possible! (its not like its set in stone already >_>) this boost in the span of a few days, it only hastened the release of their planed changes/tweaks to arty. Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:20:00 - [190] Selective memory? Don't think so - I've no problem with the boost to artillery and think it's a good thing, after all I'm training projectiles :) I was responding to the quoted comments, selective reading ftw.

Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:45:00 - [191] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive Constructive is thinking that the artillery boost will come in useful for the Abaddon... - It's great flying Amarr, aint it?
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:02:00 - [192] Originally by: Lucre Originally by: Swamp Ziro Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive Constructive is thinking that the artillery boost will come in useful for the Abaddon... Excellent then us who trained projectiles for amarr back in 03 might have use for it again :D
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.25 21:19:00 - [193] Originally by: Rodj Blake I must confess that I've skipped over most of this thread, but do Tuxford's figures take into account the fact that everyone has insane EM resistances? No, he's not aware, because his guns do thermal and kinetic damage (shields 20/40; armour 35/20). Hmm. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 00:58:00 - [194] omg amarr peeps, way to smear a stickied thread because it doesn't have to do w/ you back to the topic at hand..... Its sweet this is will be proactively adjusted w/ the HP boost. Give it to me straight Doc, will either the Tempest or the Maelstrom be able to out snipe a Rokh? I mean, why dont we give caldari a nice blaster/drone/armor tanking boat next?
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:29:00 - [195] Originally by: d'Mortaigne Hurray! Another boost not related to Amarr! Hurray! lier, boost to arty = boost to amarr It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Nicose Caldari Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:55:00 - [196] Whine, whine whine whine, whine...............whine if a patch screws your already uber setup make another one you uncreative bastards! like......and oh yes im bringing this one up......the missile nerf.....suddenly torps = poo against all things non BS so ppl adjusted their setups and fitted other things instead and IMO the raven still rocks.......whine whine whine whine whine. pussies.
Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:21:00 - [197] Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon Originally by: Lucre Constructive is thinking that the artillery boost will come in useful for the Abaddon... Excellent then us who trained projectiles for amarr back in 03 might have use for it again :D I used to run with 4 x 425 rail and 4 x dual heavy beam on my Apoc... The irony looking at the Abaddon now is of course that that was before CCP realised that Amarr ships just didn't work with a 5%/level laser cap bonus and so gave them all 10%/level instead... - It's great flying Amarr, aint it?
hereward rowland Macrocosm Advanced Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:12:00 - [198] yay at least we are getting some well needed attention... now if they could only nerf missles id be happy
Bruno Vespa	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:01:00 - [199] 7.5% more damage and 15% more tracking for artys. They will still sux, but less.
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 08:15:00 - [200] with all this so called 'ballancing' why not just make one ship with a 8/8/8 setup and then.. no wait! we could all fly polaris frigs and carebear away! Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida. My sig is blue not pink although i can't argue with the slave part - Xorus wth whats this blue stuff all of a sudden? Did I miss a mail? -eris Bwahahahaha!11 Immy was here

Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:13:00 - [201] Originally by: Bruno Vespa 7.5% more damage and 15% more tracking for artys. They will still sux, but less. ... if artys would still suck after that, what would rails do, given that on ships meant to be arty platforms (Rupture, Tempest, Muninn, Hurricane, Sleipnir) arties would - outdamage the rails - outtrack the rails (except on BS level) - be still able to use variable damage types - still use no cap? There is no ship that gives a bonus to small arties' RoF, so that might be looked at, but on the other hand, zero cap use is a pretty big deal on frigs. And of course, Rifter is a brilliant ship as is and Jaguar/Wolf get double damage bonus. -- NMTZ forum
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:26:00 - [202] for sure 7.5% and 15% is too much. 5% damage and halve ammo size would already be very good. Maybe a slight reduction on rate of fire with a slighty higher damage bonus to rpeserve AS. But no more tan thta.. afterall which self respectful Minmatar would welcome the idea of being on the easy mode? I don't
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:50:00 - [203] Originally by: Epsilon 1 Originally by: Taipan Gedscho so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again? Looks like post patch will be: caldari > gallente > minmatar > mailman > amarr. Once again good job. I dispise people like you, always biased everywhere. Euro 0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment
Imhotep Khem Vortex.	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:13:00 - [204] Are we boosting NPC HP as well? If you fight an enemy that has autocannons you can already forget it because he WILL close on you before you kill him, if your in anything bigger than a frigate, and sometimes even in a frigate. So the HP boost will make autocannon setups dominate artillery setups. Anyway, you can't hold the enemy in place while using artillery because of the 20km disrupt range, and if you start out at or close than 20km, you will be closed on so fast its not even funny... ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:45:00 - [205] Edited by: Lazy8s on 27/10/2006 16:48:50 I'm currently a caldari pilot and everyone I run with flies caldari/gallente or minnie. The boost will be nice to bring projectiles in line with the other guns. That being said, the first thing I though when I saw that was basically that chart shows that lasers do the same damage but have a huge penalty (large cap use). Sure laser boats have another gun but that means they just run dry faster. I know amarr don't have ammo (only with T1 of course) but if you packed your cargo with projectile/hybrid ammo how long could you fire compared to an amarr boat before amarr ran "out of ammo". Also, if you run out of ammo you can still do stuff. Add in the fact that most people armor tank and you basically just proved that Amarr are gimped in PvP...imho amarr should be the biggest DPS because they pay the biggest price for doing it. I am not an amarr whiner and I don't want to derail the thread but that was the first thing I saw. The second thing I saw was that mega beams are supposed to be Amarr's guns that are "comparable" to everyone else's and tachs are supposed to be "a cut above the rest" as I understood it but basically with the boost to projectiles amarr will have to use Tachs just to be comparable which doesn't make any sense to me. Why even have megas then? To all the minnie people complaining about the amarr people whining in the thread get real. When he posts charts comparing ALL guns you can't expect the other races not to chime in if it brings up blatant discrepencies. Anyways, woohoo projectiles! I think minmatar deserves this.
Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:16:00 - [206] Boosting all ship Hp is a bad bad bad idea, i cant see the logic in it one bit. I seriously hope you U-turn on this its not going to do the game any favours. --- Lodhi ftg
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:17:00 - [207] Originally by: Kaeten Originally by: Epsilon 1 Originally by: Taipan Gedscho so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again? Looks like post patch will be: caldari > gallente > minmatar > mailman > amarr. Once again good job. I dispise people like you, always biased everywhere. It's not my bloody problem you're spec in one race and know jack ** about minmatar and amarr. Have you been sleeping under a rock for the past 18 months? Invest a few years into both races, then we'll talk. Originally by:** Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. NGE act 2.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:35:00 - [208] Its the second time I read this post now, and some things come to mind... 1) Why are we discussing boost to dps, when the real problem is the alpha strike? Or do we want to move away from alpha strikes and make artillery more like railguns? 2) I think Tuxfords idea of making the different race ammo types do the same amount damage is a good idea. Easier comparisons ftw. And I welcome a closer look at autocannons, at least large ones. 3) Using no cap for weapons isnt a big advantage, specially since minmatar ships have smaller capacitators than the others. The advantage shows when both a gallente ship and a minmatar ship is totally out of cap though, since the minmatar one keeps firing. But that usually doesnt happen in close combat thanks to cap injectors. 4) Minmatar is kind of special since their damage type is changeable in theory, but hardly ever in practice because of range limitations. If you want to snipe, you have to use Tremor. No other ammo gets even close to +100% range. The advantage shows itself with autocannons though, where you can use EMP or Phased Plasma against shield tanks (EMP/thermal damage), and Fusion or Quake against armor tanks (mostly explosive damage). 5) Consider using Naughty Boy's excel spreadsheet. Looks like its light years ahead of what you are using now, but I could be wrong of course. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Too Kind	Posted - 2006.10.28 15:52:00 - [209] Edited by: Too Kind on 28/10/2006 16:01:24 Originally by: Yamaeda Originally by: Too Kind It looks like the dps at opti-range + falloff is at 50% of the maximum dps. That can't be true as I understand it, because the max-damage has already fallen to 50% at this point, but there is another chance-to hit penalty of 50%, so the dps suffers a double penalty and must be worse than 50% at opti-range plus falloff ( probably down to around 25% already and all dps curves should fall down faster. And that makes a difference, especially if you look at the blue curve and compare it to the red one and imagine, they'd fall faster. ^^) Or do I miss something ? Range doesn't affect hit-damage at all, if you hit, you hit for full damage. 1 Falloff incurs -50% hit chance, thus -50% dps. (there's some theories that it's actually lower due to lesser wreckings also, but even if true it's close enough) /Y I was quite sure that once I got something like a 70.x hit wrecking hit (!) with 1400mm once on something that was far out of my sniper range. Maybe it was a bug or uber resistances. A wrecking hit within opti-range means usually around 1500 for me with Tremor L, that was at least a wrecking today on a cruiser at 160km. So if the max-damage stays the same, then a wrecking hit at 230km should also be that high, even if my opti-range is just 170km, only the chance for a wrecking go down as the chance for 'well aimed' etc. Need to check it once I find an unarmed pos tower again that allows some extensive testing. ( or just anchor one myself ) -------------------------- Post with your main !!!111
Sal Alo	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:14:00 - [210] The only reason for using artilleries is: alpha strike. I think we all agree with this first sentence. Now let's start fighting If our friend Tuxford thinks artilleries need some improvments on the damage side, he can add 5% more damage and it appears a right decision by me if u keep all the ships hitpoints at the current level. Talking about artilleries, what the hell are you improving if you add 5% damage on artilleries and boost up ships' hitpoints by 25-50% I don't know, but you are not boosting the only reason for using artilleries, for sure: alpha strike. Here's my proposal if we want to keep artilleries like now (=alpha strike) Raise up damage by X% according with the ships' hitpoints boosting Raise up reloading time by the same X%. After that, artilleries have the same alpha strike but updated for the new ships. Now you can add the new improvments, like more 5% damage.

Apollo Balthar Minmatar The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.10.30 00:59:00 - [211] Originally by: Rodj Blake I must confess that I've skipped over most of this thread, but do Tuxford's figures take into account the fact that everyone has insane EM resistances? Not only did you skip the thread, you also skipped the topic title and the startpost which both hid a massive clue to the fact that this thread is actually concerning artilleries, not lasers. Try again ------------------------------------------------ WTS: tech2 clue
Sweet Poetry	Posted - 2006.10.30 05:36:00 - [212] Originally by: Tuxford Lets start this by taking a look at... So it needs a boost but how much? Lets take a look at an image with a modes 5% boost to artilleries. I also made pictures of damage over the first 60 seconds and first 120 seconds I'm a bit confused by your charts. I didn't think 5% was all that was required for arties to have the same dps as the other guns. Anyways, I have always really liked howitzers and auto cannons. I always justified the lower dps on howitzers by the advantage of alpha strike. Now it seems they get their alpha strike without penalty (other than the fact that their best BS uses 6 turrets while gallente uses 7 turrets and ammar uses 7/8. Since on your graph howitzers are spending more time at the top (at most times on your graph, red line is on top) I think you overshot the mark and since you need to offer a penalty for the alpha strike, I think 2-3% is closer to the mark (alpha is still a big deal, with +50% to HP on all ships, the only bs that will be able to one-shot an interceptor is the tempest).
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.30 11:32:00 - [213] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/10/2006 11:37:40 Im still a bit confused by this thread, because I thought it would address the alpha strikes with the new hitpoints. It needs to get buffed, but how much? How about 50%? The hitpoint boost in Kali isnt 50%, its more. The ship gets 50% extra hp, but then you have every shield extender and armor plate getting 50% bigger as well. Its not unrealistic to expect the ships total hitpoints to go up with 100% or more. If a battleship ship has 20k shields (no, its not unrealistic after kali) and you alpha strike it for 3k... its not very valuable, is it? After the alpha strike is boosted, you can address the issue of the low dps... another 5-7% looks about right. I think this whole change will mean higher damage multiplier, lower rof, to get things to work correctly. And if the Tempest cant one-shot a damn interceptor... well, I dont know what to say really. Then the alpha strike is so extreamly worthless that I dont see anyone bothering with it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:54:00 - [214] Originally by: Tuxford So it needs a boost but how much? Lets take a look at an image with a modes 5% boost to artilleries. I also made pictures of damage over the first 60 seconds and first 120 seconds Well, after a week of feedback and some good input here, can we get a follow up? You asked us the question (how much) so..... :) how much is it gonna be. The answer will have ramifications on maelstrom balance and I believe should be answered before tweaking that ship. (omg gimme resist bonus) thank you Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.31 08:43:00 - [215] Someone explain to me again why artilleries need a boost? Rupture with 720mm IIs vs Thorax with 250mm IIs: Thorax needs a RCU to even fit the guns, so it's easy for the Ruppie to have one more dam mod => Rupture has better DoT AND has two missile high slots free. Thorax has 4.5% better tracking but uses over 8 cap/sec. Rupture has 1/6 shorter range, better falloff. Rupture vs Moa: no contest on damage, different roles for the ships. Muninn vs Deimos (new grid values for both): Deimos does 10.9% more damage on guns and has an extra low slot, but Muninn outranges it by 25%, has 32% better tracking, doesn't use cap and has two missile highs free (would need an RCU to fit heavies, though). If long-range T2 ammo is nerfed so heavily that long-range T1 ammo gets again used, Muninn will outdamage Deimos. Tempest vs Megathron: Mega does 3.4% more damage on guns with T2 ammo, with T1 ammo Tempest outdamages it by 11-14%. Tempest needs a RCU to fit anything after the guns. Mega tracks way better and has 20% better optimal, but cannot sustain its guns without cap mods. Maelstrom will outdamage Mega by 3.2% as is, more with T1 long-range ammo. I think those were all Minmatar ships that regularly fit artillery? The damage types probably should be mentioned, but the effect is difficult to quantify. It's at least some advantage to arty, though. To recap: in my opinion, the ships using arties are pretty balanced with the ships using rails as is. If the ships using arties will be outdamaging the ships using rails with better damage types, could the cap use of the rails be dropped to 0, please? -- NMTZ forum
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.31 11:07:00 - [216] Just look at the graph form the Original post. Rails outdamage art. Fact... Art main advantage was Alpha Strike.. there will be no more alpha strike in kali due to HP changes.. so art looses.. => art needs a little boost to compensate.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.31 11:27:00 - [217] Originally by: Polinus Just look at the graph form the Original post. Rails outdamage art. Fact... Art main advantage was Alpha Strike.. there will be no more alpha strike in kali due to HP changes.. so art looses.. => art needs a little boost to compensate. sigh On Minmatar ships with RoF+damage bonus, rails do not outperform artilleries. Funnily enough, all ships that have the grid to use artillery have that RoF+damage bonus. Shouldn't the balancing be done from that basis? Or if not, I wouldn't mind getting a dual damage bonus on Megathron and Thorax and triple on Deimos in place of the old bonuses. -- NMTZ forum
Megadon Caldari Templars of Light	Posted - 2006.10.31 13:52:00 - [218] What baffles me is that it's pretty obvious that amarr need some love on the gunnery front across the board, yet the focus is elsewhere. On top the that, when Amarr is discussed, it seems Tachyon II's are often the centerpiece of these discussions as if this is naturally the weapon of choice by high skilled amarr pilots and that's simply not true either. I don't get it.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.31 14:07:00 - [219] Originally by: Megadon What baffles me is that it's pretty obvious that amarr need some love on the gunnery front across the board, yet the focus is elsewhere. I think that the devs are waiting what Rokh will do to fleet fights. The DoT of Amarr is definitely not lacking, the possible problem is the lack of effective damage against (omnitanked) armor. Rokh will most probably shield tank, and against that, Amarr ships are absolutely brilliant. And Tux has said that the omnitank is under review. -- NMTZ forum
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.31 14:44:00 - [220] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/10/2006 14:51:40 If ccp get rid of alpha strike, why would anyone pick minmatar when they start a new character? They might as well pick caldari/gallente, train hybrids and then have blasters/railguns for two races ships. At least if artillery dps is equal to railguns. So if minmatar lose the alpha strike, I think they need to get higher dps than railguns instead. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.31 17:56:00 - [221] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Polinus Just look at the graph form the Original post. Rails outdamage art. Fact... Art main advantage was Alpha Strike.. there will be no more alpha strike in kali due to HP changes.. so art looses.. => art needs a little boost to compensate. sigh On Minmatar ships with RoF+damage bonus, rails do not outperform artilleries. Funnily enough, all ships that have the grid to use artillery have that RoF+damage bonus. Shouldn't the balancing be done from that basis? Or if not, I wouldn't mind getting a dual damage bonus on Megathron and Thorax and triple on Deimos in place of the old bonuses. You cant make all the balance solely upon the tempest and alike. There are lots of other ships. Also don't forget art have worse tracking
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.31 23:41:00 - [222] Originally by: Polinus Originally by: Theron Gyrow sigh On Minmatar ships with RoF+damage bonus, rails do not outperform artilleries. Funnily enough, all ships that have the grid to use artillery have that RoF+damage bonus. Shouldn't the balancing be done from that basis? Or if not, I wouldn't mind getting a dual damage bonus on Megathron and Thorax and triple on Deimos in place of the old bonuses. You cant make all the balance solely upon the tempest and alike. There are lots of other ships. Also don't forget art have worse tracking And the fact that dual damage bonus ships tend to have fewer turret hardpoints than their counterparts.
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.11.01 03:28:00 - [223] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/10/2006 11:37:40 Im still a bit confused by this thread, because I thought it would address the alpha strikes with the new hitpoints. It needs to get buffed, but how much? How about 50%? The hitpoint boost in Kali isnt 50%, its more. The ship gets 50% extra hp, but then you have every shield extender and armor plate getting 50% bigger as well. Its not unrealistic to expect the ships total hitpoints to go up with 100% or more. If a battleship ship has 20k shields (no, its not unrealistic after kali) and you alpha strike it for 3k... its not very valuable, is it? After the alpha strike is boosted, you can address the issue of the low dps... another 5-7% looks about right. I think this whole change will mean higher damage multiplier, lower rof, to get things to work correctly. And if the Tempest cant one-shot a **** interceptor... well, I dont know what to say really. Then the alpha strike is so extreamly worthless that I dont see anyone bothering with it. I agree with you but... hehe, there's always a but. The objective of more HP on ships is to make battles longer. Longer battles means alpha is less important so howitzers need a boost... So if that's our rational, I think we're going about it the wrong way. If howitzers are going to be the same dps as the other guns, it's really a cop out. I mean, the guns aren't supposed to be the same, they are supposed to both be good in different situations. If they just increase the alpha strike by 50% and longer refire time... howitzers become way way stronger alpha than the other guns (currently for BS howitzers have something like 80% more alpha per gun). So, I like where you're going but really, instead of increasing HP of all ships by 50%, why not just increase refire rate of all weapons in the game? This will give longer battles and not mess with the uniqueness / balance of the guns in the game. (It would reduce cap usage on hybrid/lasers but you could compensate for that by increased cap usage per shot and keeping the cap usage / second the same). Another thing I haven't seen mentioned yet.... if we're increasing HP by 50%, doesn't it make sense to increase capacitor base by 50% too or have we considered this and decided people have too much capacitor at the end of a fight? -Sir Bart
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.01 09:38:00 - [224] Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 01/11/2006 10:00:47 Originally by: Polinus Originally by: Theron Gyrow On Minmatar ships with RoF+damage bonus, rails do not outperform artilleries. Funnily enough, all ships that have the grid to use artillery have that RoF+damage bonus. Shouldn't the balancing be done from that basis? Or if not, I wouldn't mind getting a dual damage bonus on Megathron and Thorax and triple on Deimos in place of the old bonuses. You cant make all the balance solely upon the tempest and alike. There are lots of other ships. Could you please list the ships that could fit med/large arty that I did not already mention? Originally by: Polinus Also don't forget art have worse tracking Indeed, rails have all of 6.9% (large) or 4.5% (medium) better tracking than artilleries. -- NMTZ forum
Warnings	Posted - 2006.11.01 10:19:00 - [225] Tuxford, you can make a "true" graph with base resist of all ship, please ... You increase armor and shield but you boost a lot minmatar which don't need cap for shoot ... Abaddon is a good example for amarr, you shoot somes mins and you are out of cap. If the target is destroy is ok, else you can only warp out ... Another thing for amarr, it's very quickly to shoot a ship without tank but on the tank damage decreasing a lot and take very very long time for passthrough. A another race take more time for passthrough non-tank but take a little more time for tank. This change disavantage again and again the amarr ... (You have see the price of ship T2, gun T2 amarr and the price of ship/gun t2 for gallente/minmatar/caldari ? You don't ask if the amarr need a boost ???) Yes, other race need to recharge but it's 10sec for recharge it's really nothing ...
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.11.01 22:13:00 - [226] Originally by: Warnings You increase armor and shield but you boost a lot minmatar which don't need cap for shoot ... Abaddon is a good example for amarr, you shoot somes mins and you are out of cap. If the target is destroy is ok, else you can only warp out ... Hehe I love when I see people say this. With no cap how are our amarrian friends supposed to warp out? :p Not trying to be a jerk I just see this all of the time. Amarr are the only ones that run out of a ship when they run out of ammo.
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.11.01 23:02:00 - [227] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Polinus Just look at the graph form the Original post. Rails outdamage art. Fact... Art main advantage was Alpha Strike.. there will be no more alpha strike in kali due to HP changes.. so art looses.. => art needs a little boost to compensate. sigh On Minmatar ships with RoF+damage bonus, rails do not outperform artilleries. Funnily enough, all ships that have the grid to use artillery have that RoF+damage bonus. Shouldn't the balancing be done from that basis? Or if not, I wouldn't mind getting a dual damage bonus on Megathron and Thorax and triple on Deimos in place of the old bonuses. You misunderstand. The point is that the tempest needs both of it's boni in order to keep up with the other races' battleships. It's like the tempest comes pre-nerfed with rof and damage penalties and needs the ship boni to bring it up to par. By increasing arty damage or rof, it's going to make the tempest's damage bonus be an actual bonus (like a mega's tracking bonus), instead of something that patches up the pre-nerfing done. I don't think any matari would mind if the tempest damage was brought up to the mega level with only one bonus needed, thus freeing the other towards being a real bonus (like range or resistance).
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.02 08:37:00 - [228] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/11/2006 08:44:05 I think every race should have a race bonus to their guns, thereby freeing up one bonus on all ships. For example: Minmatar always have 5% dmg on all their ships Amarr always have 5% dmg on all their ships Gallente always have 5% dmg on all their ships Caldari always have 5% dmg on all their ships Then balance all weapon systems to eachother without taking bonuses into account. That means that when you get a bonus, its valuable. This change would also mean that you have 2 free bonuses you can give to tech 1 ships (4 free bonuses for tech 2 ships). You can give some of them double damage bonuses and still have another bonus to give out. Or you can NOT give some of them double damage bonuses (because the weapons are balanced without the bonuses) and give them 2 defensive bonuses instead. At least it seems interesting to me, because then you would further diversify the roles of the ships in the game. Also it would make sure that racial weapons are better on racial ships (if they have equal number of turrets). Fit 8 projectiles to an amarr ship, fine, but you dont get +25% dmg like on the Maelstrom. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Marsha11 Bad Karma.	Posted - 2006.11.02 11:47:00 - [229] When it comes to artillery i dont want a ship that shoots fast but has a low damage, i dont want a ship that has an 'OK' Rate of fire and an 'OK' damage. I want a ship that fires as slow as hell but when it hits the world knows about it... You can still keep the dps similar to that of rails or beams. If a railgun does 200 a hit every 5 seconds for example (im keeping numbers simple here) then i think an artillery cannon should do 600 a hit every 15 seconds. Or even a 800 hit every 20 seconds. The dps is the same but the alpha strike is still there. I dont know if i speak for all artillery users, but personally i would be fine with that change... Down with ROF and up with Damage! End
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.02 23:42:00 - [230] Originally by: ProphetGuru Well, after a week of feedback and some good input here, can we get a follow up? You asked us the question (how much) so..... :) how much is it gonna be. The answer will have ramifications on maelstrom balance and I believe should be answered before tweaking that ship. (omg gimme resist bonus) thank you Some good input? Personally I'm sick and tired of the extreme ******* of the ppl giving their 'input' (see below for examples). But indeed, I'm kinda shocked by the tier 3 BS for Gallante and Minmatar. They both come with layouts suited for fleet-combat, but with rep/boost bonuses that are useless for anything bigger than 2 vs 2 or perhaps 3vs3 fights. It doesn't make any sense at all. Pretty much as little sense as the shortrange T2 ammo changes for these two. So, some examples of the rly good input on the subject just from this page (8): Originally by:** Jim McGregor And if the Tempest cant one-shot a ** interceptor... well, I dont know what to say really. Then the alpha strike is so extreamly worthless that I dont see anyone bothering with it. As no battleship can hit an interceptor if it's moving, I'm sure this is very relevant... Originally by:** Jim McGregor Oh, and also consider giving the Tempest 7 turrets, specially now when the ship is gimped in its alpha strike capabilities. One 1400 on tempest outdamage one 425mm on mega. One AC on a tempest outdamage one blaster on a mega. Surely, a ship that is faster, locks faster, has smaller radius, doesn't use cap for it guns and in the case of shortrange guns has much better range as well, should do more dps... or perhaps not Originally by: Polinus You cant make all the balance solely upon the tempest and alike. There are lots of other ships. From now on, I suggest we use a dominix as the platform to compare 425mm rails. It's very obvious that the powergrid need to be lowered with 50% as they can't be fitted. Also, 425mm needs a damage boost since the dominix only has 6 highslots and is badly outdamaged by all the minmatar and amarr ships. And finally, the 425mm also needs a tracking boost since the dominix doesn't have such a bonus. Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou By increasing arty damage or rof, it's going to make the tempest's damage bonus be an actual bonus (like a mega's tracking bonus), instead of something that patches up the pre-nerfing done. I don't think any matari would mind if the tempest damage was brought up to the mega level with only one bonus needed, thus freeing the other towards being a real bonus (like range or resistance). Autocannons has better (or equal, depending on which group you pick) tracking compared to blasters. Yet they also have much better range. Tracking on autocannons were boosted in 2004, so that they would be on par with blasters when including the megathron's tracking bonus. The fact that a dominix also is supposed to use blasters but doesn't have a tracking bonus was completely disregarded. Selective memory and hypocracy 4tw, right? Originally by: Apollo Balthar you also skipped the topic title and the startpost which both hid a massive clue to the fact that this thread is actually concerning artilleries, not lasers. Then I suggest you can argue here for that arties get a 5% damage boost. I'll start another thread and argue that hybrids needs a 5000% damage boost. And no, you can't argue against me regarding such a boost - since according to you balance doesn't have anything to do with comparing the different weapons to eachother, or more importantly the actual ships to each other. Although I thought that that kinda was the definition of balance Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me

ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.03 02:52:00 - [231] Originally by: dalman Some good input? Personally I'm sick and tired of the extreme ******* of the ppl giving their 'input' (see below for examples). But indeed, I'm kinda shocked by the tier 3 BS for Gallante and Minmatar. They both come with layouts suited for fleet-combat, but with rep/boost bonuses that are useless for anything bigger than 2 vs 2 or perhaps 3vs3 fights. It doesn't make any sense at all. Pretty much as little sense as the shortrange T2 ammo changes for these two. Yes Dalman... some good input. Some bad input obviously as well, but get over yourself ffs. This thread had a question asked by TUX to the community... arty needs a boost, but how much? Yes some of the input is rediculous, and you can disagree, but you act as tho the only valid comparison that matters is your 3% argument, when the realities of using something ingame and as part of a weapons "SYSTEM" may not support said argument. It's funny how people are all for diversification as long as it doesn't "diversify" something into being better then their precious. Comparing everything to the mega may not quite be the optimal way to balance the game, or has your sense of veteran superiority gone even that far? You focus on minnie advantages while ignoring their disadvantages. You tout "no cap use" like it is the holy grail, when the vaga was the only ship that saw ANY benefit out of that change. Put the old cap use back on, wouldn't bother me for a second. You mention the fast lock time, and ignore the short lock range... you mention our speed advantage when it means nothing in real world application all for the weapon system we are discussing, and can often in fact be detrimental. Very nice rose colored glasses you see the world thru. If you disagree with Tux that arty's need an adjustment fine.. answer his *** question and show a little gd respect for his intelligence in sifting thru the mass of bull**. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.03 03:48:00 - [232] Originally by: dalman Autocannons has better (or equal, depending on which group you pick) tracking compared to blasters. Yet they also have much better range. Tracking on autocannons were boosted in 2004, so that they would be on par with blasters when including the megathron's tracking bonus. The fact that a dominix also is supposed to use blasters but doesn't have a tracking bonus was completely disregarded. Have you actually looked at the tracking of blasters and autocannons? Electron blaster (base) = .05 Ion blaster (base) = .046 Neutron blaster (base) = .0433 Dual 425mm = .054 Dual 650mm = .048 800mm = .0432 Electron blaster (w/ bonus) = .0688 Ion blaster (w/ bonus) = .0633 Neutron blaster (w/ bonus) = .0595 So blasters w/ bonus have significantly better tracking than their autocannon counterparts. Even with the old 25% bonus they have significantly better tracking. Without the tracking bonus their tracking isn't that far off from autocannons and in some cases even better! Originally by: dalman Selective memory and hypocracy 4tw, right? So it would seem.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 09:12:00 - [233] Dalman, which autocannon outdamages which blaster? Is this some kind of scenario where the autocannon use Hail and you dont have explosive resists or something? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.03 09:33:00 - [234] Originally by: ProphetGuru Yes Dalman... some good input. Some bad input obviously as well, but get over yourself ffs. This thread had a question asked by TUX to the community... arty needs a boost, but how much? Yes some of the input is rediculous, and you can disagree, but you act as tho the only valid comparison that matters is your 3% argument, when the realities of using something ingame and as part of a weapons "SYSTEM" may not support said argument. Yes, the realities of using something ingame... Like; everytime lag prevents you from activating a gun, giving the projectiles a new alpha-strike-bonus. every time player limitations gives projectiles a new alpha-strike-bonus, like when second and third target warps out at the same time the primary dies and you're sitting with no target locked. every time you're jammed and have to re-lock, giving a new alpha-strike-bonus. Originally by: ProphetGuru It's funny how people are all for diversification as long as it doesn't "diversify" something into being better then their precious. uh? That sentence can only be understood in one way: that you're saying a boosted 1400mm will be hands down better than 425mm. Originally by: ProphetGuru Comparing everything to the mega may not quite be the optimal way to balance the game, or has your sense of veteran superiority gone even that far? Am I the one doing that? Each day I see new threads by minmatars saying "we need a boost cause [insert stupid argument vs megathron]". Each day I see new threads by amarrs saying "we need a boost cause [insert stupid argument vs megathron]". What am I supposed to do then? "Let's compare an apoc, a tempest and a banana"? Originally by: ProphetGuru You focus on minnie advantages while ignoring their disadvantages. You tout "no cap use" like it is the holy grail, when the vaga was the only ship that saw ANY benefit out of that change. Put the old cap use back on, wouldn't bother me for a second. It's not like I have the ability to use that cap anywhere else. You mention the fast lock time, and ignore the short lock range... you mention our speed advantage when it means nothing in real world application all for the weapon system we are discussing, and can often in fact be detrimental. Very nice rose colored glasses you see the world thru. And all the minmatar forum warrior squad focus on disadventages while ignoring their advantages. And if you read the post I replied to there, it was a post about close-range weapons as well. Considering the ammount of whining regarding the speed and cap penalties on hail, one would guess it's very important then... Originally by: ProphetGuru If you disagree with Tux that arty's need an adjustment fine.. answer his ***** question and show a little gd respect for his intelligence in sifting thru the mass of bull. But this whole thread is a result of minmatar mass-whining on this forum, out of which almost every post is bull**. I'm sorry, but I don't have very high faith in the devs (not directed specificly at Tux). History tells us otherwise and is repeating itself, about how something is boosted after a bit of whining on this forum and soon leads to a re-nerf or boosting of something else. And about how new "toys" and "features" are introduced without any real consideration of the consequences. Take the T2 long range ammo for example. It was so obvious what would happen. And not until now does it get nerfed? And that's very relevant to this topic, as the nerf of T2 ammo is a boost to minmatar. Your "disadventage" of shorter optimal and longer falloff is reduced when the optimal bonus on T2 ammo is nerfed - and may in some situations actually turn into an adventage. And so is your lockrange disadventage. Funny how the "objective" minmatar forum warrior squad haven't typed a single word about this... Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.03 09:37:00 - [235] Edited by: dalman on 03/11/2006 09:43:42 Originally by: Jim McGregor Dalman, which autocannon outdamages which blaster? Is this some kind of scenario where the autocannon use Hail and you dont have explosive resists or something? Everyone. 800mm on tempest vs neutron on mega. dual650 on tempest vs ion on mega. dual425 on tempest vs electron on mega. For each of them, the autocannon does more raw DPS per gun. Just another example of how the minmatar forum warrior squad are very good at basing argumentation on facts... Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: dalman Autocannons has better (or equal, depending on which group you pick) tracking compared to blasters. Yet they also have much better range. Tracking on autocannons were boosted in 2004, so that they would be on par with blasters when including the megathron's tracking bonus. The fact that a dominix also is supposed to use blasters but doesn't have a tracking bonus was completely disregarded. Have you actually looked at the tracking of blasters and autocannons? Electron blaster (base) = .05 Ion blaster (base) = .046 Neutron blaster (base) = .0433 Dual 425mm = .054 Dual 650mm = .048 800mm = .0432 Electron blaster (w/ bonus) = .0688 Ion blaster (w/ bonus) = .0633 Neutron blaster (w/ bonus) = .0595 So blasters w/ bonus have significantly better tracking than their autocannon counterparts. Even with the old 25% bonus they have significantly better tracking. Without the tracking bonus their tracking isn't that far off from autocannons and in some cases even better! Do you understand what tracking is? Tracking is not about the tracking value on the gun. Tracking is that number * range to be used at. And as is very obvious, tracking on autocannons is done to be balanced with blasters when including the tracking bonus. Though actually, it's easy to argue that for dual425mm vs electron, the AC has alot better stats even when the blaster has a tracking bonus. And it should be very obvious that the dominix is completely ****** over, which is one of the reasons "none" use large hybrids on it. Regardless, your attempt in your original post came back to bite you in the... Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 09:44:00 - [236] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Jim McGregor Dalman, which autocannon outdamages which blaster? Is this some kind of scenario where the autocannon use Hail and you dont have explosive resists or something? Everyone. 800mm on tempest vs neutron on mega. dual650 on tempest vs ion on mega. dual425 on tempest vs electron on mega. For each of them, the autocannon does more raw DPS per gun. Just another example of how the minmatar forum warrior squad are very good at basing argumentation on facts... I think you are doing an excellent job yourself at strange argumentation, when you are saying Tempest and then show damage per gun, when you know that Megathron has 7 guns and Tempest has 6. You know that the total damage output from a megathron is much higher than a Tempest, which also has to do with the drones. This "per gun" nonsense doesnt reveal the truth about what really happens when Tempest goes toe-to-toe with a megathron. Tempest dies. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 09:57:00 - [237] Originally by: dalman And we also all know that both tempest and megathron are pretty useless ships for 1vs1 combat. So putting them in a gang-situation where they belong, the usefulness of drones decline drasticly and the better range of a tempest makes it actually deliver more damage (at least now when Tux is removing null from the game). No, megathron is the king of 1 vs 1 combat in my opinion. There are very few ships that doesnt die to the megas extreme damage output. Its the most popular 1 vs 1 battleship in the game, I would say. If you dont agree, what ship would you say is the most popular? Perhaps the Dominix, but not after the ecm nerf. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sarah McParty	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:35:00 - [238] Too often I hear "no you can't fix <object 1> because <object 2> is the king of the situation and can't be outdated". 90% of minmatar stuffs have been inferior for 3 years, now give us 3 years of glory. ps: tempest needs 7 turrets and more armour!
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:58:00 - [239] Originally by: dalman Do you understand what tracking is? Tracking is not about the tracking value on the gun. Tracking is that number * range to be used at. And as is very obvious, tracking on autocannons is done to be balanced with blasters when including the tracking bonus. Though actually, it's easy to argue that for dual425mm vs electron, the AC has alot better stats even when the blaster has a tracking bonus. And it should be very obvious that the dominix is completely ****** over, which is one of the reasons "none" use large hybrids on it. Regardless, your attempt in your original post came back to bite you in the... What range are blasters to be used at? What range are autocannons to be used at? What transversal velocity is assumed in when these supposed balancing changes were made? If the range at which blasters are to be used is less than 10km, is a web assumed when these supposed balancing changes were made? I wouldn't doubt that there is some range and transversal velocity for autocannons and blasters at which the HIT CHANCE is equal, but that doesn't mean that blasters themselves don't have better TRACKING with the Mega's tracking bonus in the case of electron and ion and even without the bonus in the case of the neutrons. TRACKING is the value on the gun, however when calculating HIT CHANCE the range and transversal velocity come in to play. Read the TRACKING guide, specifically chart 3/5 where they explicity explain TRACKING.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.03 20:29:00 - [240] Right, in a half-*ed attempt to bring this back on topic I'll not explain my gratitude to the alts/new players trying to educate me and instead reply to Evil Thug (no doubt he'd reply after I referred to his vid). So Evil Thug, no matter how I dislike your "tricks" you're still a very smart and good player. This has resulted in that you also have plenty of isk, which you (among other stuff) use to buy more characters. To a point where you can almost form a fleet with just all your alts. Unlike other players (like me), you're not bound to use anything as through bought characters you have the freedom to use any ship/gun type. But still you choose to fly tempest with artilleries. And when you then come here and complain about them, it defies all logic. I've been trying to come up with some explanations to this... 1 You're actually completely ******. - possible, but very very unlikely. 2 You're actually a roleplayer, but only roleplay in russian so I've never understood it. - possible, but very unlikely. 3 AXE/ASCN is so horrible at PvP that you choose to fly the worst ship to give them a bit of a chance. - possible, but then why would you complain about artilleries? 4 You actually choose tempest and artilleries cause you think that's the best option in your fleets. And just go to the forum and say "boost me, boost me" like 99% of the other ppl here does. - possible, and much much more likely than the above three. Can you help me to understand this situation better? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me

Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:00:00 - [241] Originally by: dalman Right, in a half-*ed attempt to bring this back on topic I'll not explain my gratitude to the alts/new players trying to educate me and instead reply to Evil Thug (no doubt he'd reply after I referred to his vid). So Evil Thug, no matter how I dislike your "tricks" you're still a very smart and good player. This has resulted in that you also have plenty of isk, which you (among other stuff) use to buy more characters. To a point where you can almost form a fleet with just all your alts. Unlike other players (like me), you're not bound to use anything as through bought characters you have the freedom to use any ship/gun type. But still you choose to fly tempest with artilleries. And when you then come here and complain about them, it defies all logic. I've been trying to come up with some explanations to this... 1 You're actually completely ******. - possible, but very very unlikely. 2 You're actually a roleplayer, but only roleplay in russian so I've never understood it. - possible, but very unlikely. 3 AXE/ASCN is so horrible at PvP that you choose to fly the worst ship to give them a bit of a chance. - possible, but then why would you complain about artilleries? 4 You actually choose tempest and artilleries cause you think that's the best option in your fleets. And just go to the forum and say "boost me, boost me" like 99% of the other ppl here does. - possible, and much much more likely than the above three. Can you help me to understand this situation better? Could be its because you like a ship and fly it despite it not being at par with others. Or, your chars... all 50 billion of them. The Minmatar one is the best trained, so you continue to fly it. Either way, choice of ship has little to do with balance. I flew ONLY Megathrons for a long time... and I knew they sucked as blaster ships. Didn't stop me from flying them. This is when I also had an Amarr spec account and the Geddon was the I win button. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 16:20:00 - [242] Umm, anyway... When you read this thread Tux, please clarify if you are intending to boost alpha strikes or dps for artillery. And dont say that 5% dmg fixes the alpha strike. Thanks. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 22:33:00 - [243] I was always under the impression it should work like this: Minmatar are the kings of alpha strike, but lose out in long-term because of ROF/reload, except for the no-cap advantage. Amarr are the kings of damage-over-time, doing the most damage in the long-term, and reloading the fastest and not worrying too much about carrying ammo. In exchange, they use the most capacitor. Caldari/Gallente use hybrids, which by their name should fall in between projectiles and lasers in their damage, ROF, cap usage, etc. They should, skills not withstanding, not do more alpha strike or more DOT than Minmatar/Amarr, but on a few ships might have a range advantage, well, just for kicks. Now if you take combat and extend it (which I am against - at least to the degree it is being done, how many HP boosts is this over the history of the game now?), obviously alpha strike is extremely devalued, and using capacitor is also a bigger disadvantage than before. The fix -should- be obvious: - Boost Minmatar alpha of each arty gun class (s,m,l,xl) by a factor somewhat below that of the HP increase for that class ship, producing longer combat but not nerfing Minmatar or boosting arty so much that smaller ships pop more easily than before. - Either reduce Amarr cap usage or increase DOT slightly, same way as above. - Offer other methods (rigs, boosters, skills) to increase overall damage for all pilots I don't know, maybe you need to boost hybrids a little bit too, but it doesn't look like it from the chart. The thing that I don't like is how terribly close together the damage types now are - too close. The 'balance' shouldn't be that hard to achieve, should it?
Apollo Balthar Minmatar The Sausage Smuggling Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 00:26:00 - [244] Edited by: Apollo Balthar on 07/11/2006 00:27:27 Originally by: Apollo Balthar you also skipped the topic title and the startpost which both hid a massive clue to the fact that this thread is actually concerning artilleries, not lasers. Then I suggest you can argue here for that arties get a 5% damage boost. I'll start another thread and argue that hybrids needs a 5000% damage boost. And no, you can't argue against me regarding such a boost - since according to you balance doesn't have anything to do with comparing the different weapons to eachother, or more importantly the actual ships to each other. Although I thought that that kinda was the definition of balance I'll try to make this simple for you, as you seem to miss alot of details when sitting on a high horse: a) I was not talking to you. b) I mainly commented on the fact that an argument was made without reading the thread, which is quite respectless. I for one wouldn't even answer to a thread when my argument is allready made by someone else. Of course, if you have PMS and need get arguments left and right to make a point that is so obvious that you must be a complete retard to even consider it something that wasn't allready in the equasion, be my guest (reread carefully for full effect). c) I wasn't talking to you. Try again. ------------------------------------------------ WTS: tech2 clue
XR Havoc	Posted - 2006.11.07 01:00:00 - [245] Disapointing changes IMO, let me explain: Presently the usage of arty vs rails requires a fundamentally different style of play, those styles are: Rails/Beams: Medium range, higher DPS Arty: Low actual DPS, high alpha strike, extreme range, poor tracking Now in the "style of play" it's not about weapons in a vacuum, it's about weapons on ships, because comparing weapons in a vacuum isn't really fair since weapons aren't used by themselves. So part of what makes Eve fun are the different weapon systems each having strengths and weaknesses and associated play styles, if we make all the long range weapons behave the same, and have similar strengths and weaknesses where is the fun in that? My proposal to fix this in the structure of the coming changes would be: 1. Double the damage of arty, cut the RoF in half (DPS stays the same, Alpha strike stays the same relative to ship hit points) 2. Reduce the range bonus on the Rokh, since let's be honest with ourselves, if it doesn't get reduced there is no other ship that is worth bringing to a fleet battle.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.07 09:48:00 - [246] Originally by: XR Havoc My proposal to fix this in the structure of the coming changes would be: 1. Double the damage of arty, cut the RoF in half (DPS stays the same, Alpha strike stays the same relative to ship hit points) 2. Reduce the range bonus on the Rokh, since let's be honest with ourselves, if it doesn't get reduced there is no other ship that is worth bringing to a fleet battle. Making the rof something like 1 shot every 30 seconds will make artillery useless for npc missions. Even if you one-shot the cruisers, you then have to wait a long time until you can kill the next one. So I dont like that change either. In fact, I dont see how they are going to fix alpha strikes without messing that up. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:41:00 - [247] Maybe a way to tune between dps and alpha might be good. Maybe through ammo? Forsch Defender of the empire It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Fedaykin Naib 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:10:00 - [248] HP INCREASE BAD IDEA! "Long Live the Fighters!"
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:18:00 - [249] Originally by: Fedaykin Naib HP INCREASE BAD IDEA! QFT. It not only screws artillery, but autocannons as well since both have VERY low DPS and the hitpoint change has more of an effect on ships with low DPS than high DPS. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" R.I.P. AC tempest R.I.P. Torp raven Thanks, CCP. R.I.P. My account, after the next cycle.
Kendala Ciistu	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:18:00 - [250] Edited by: Kendala Ciistu on 07/11/2006 17:18:11

Adam Weishaupt Minmatar The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.08 05:44:00 - [251] Yeah...how about we just drop this nonsense. Combat isn't broken...
RuSBO SolaR KillerS	Posted - 2006.11.08 06:17:00 - [252] Heh - R.I.P. Amarrians =) On test server we test 10kk SP caldari char with 1.5kk in engeneering and 60k in gunnery and 1kk in Missiles, with Caldari Battleship on 3 lvl, versus 48kk SP Amarrian PVP char with Amarr Battleship on 5 lvl 18kk sp in Gunnery and 4kk in mechanics Rokh vs Abaddon - Rokh wins 3 from 3 =) (4 torpedoes launcher + 4 heavy noses, shield tank) Abaddon fitted with tachyons t2 in damag fit , mega beams with tank fit , 6 tachyons + 2 heavy nosses with 4 heavy cap boosters - anyway no chance. - with beam specialization on 5 lvl ( and all secondary skills in gunnery on 5 lvl) damage on noob's Rokh was about 60-150 , wreck 250-300. Thank you, dear developers ,amarrians now is non-pvp race. __________________ Miner of Hunters.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:10:00 - [253] Feels like ive kept checking this thread for a Tuxford reply for ages now. Maybe it wasnt intended as a discussion but more of a monolog? Just kidding btw.. Tux probably is busy. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:27:00 - [254] Edited by: dalman on 08/11/2006 15:34:56 Originally by: RuSBO Heh - R.I.P. Amarrians =) On test server we test 10kk SP caldari char with 1.5kk in engeneering and 60k in gunnery and 1kk in Missiles, with Caldari Battleship on 3 lvl, versus 48kk SP Amarrian PVP char with Amarr Battleship on 5 lvl 18kk sp in Gunnery and 4kk in mechanics Rokh vs Abaddon - Rokh wins 3 from 3 =) (4 torpedoes launcher + 4 heavy noses, shield tank) Abaddon fitted with tachyons t2 in damag fit , mega beams with tank fit , 6 tachyons + 2 heavy nosses with 4 heavy cap boosters - anyway no chance. - with beam specialization on 5 lvl ( and all secondary skills in gunnery on 5 lvl) damage on noob's Rokh was about 60-150 , wreck 250-300. Thank you, dear developers ,amarrians now is non-pvp race. I did a test hyperion vs impairor. Hyperion fitted with 7 mining lasers, 1 tractor beam, 6 cargo expanders and mining drones. The impairor won each time. Clearly it's time to nerf amarr and boost gallante if the tier 3 gallante BS lose against the amarr rookie-frigate. ^^ about as relevant as your test. The only thing that test showed is that you should stay far away from PvP. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2006.11.08 21:31:00 - [255] Originally by: Fedaykin Naib HP INCREASE BAD IDEA! QFT
Incub Minmatar DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:12:00 - [256] To make a long post short, Advantages of artillery * High Alpha strike (twist how you want it, the hp increase is 33% nerf to this main advantage of this type of gun, and its not just 1400's, i can see tier 2 (250mm, 650mm and the 1200mm) artillery's now becomming completly obsolete, dont forget this wont just hurt the big guns!) * No cap usage (on ac's its nice, on artillery's its barely an advantage. it was like 3 cap every 10 seconds on a gankapest) * High falloff Disadvantages of artillery * Low range in comparison to other top tier long ranged weapons. (the further in the falloff you go the more significant the damage reduction becomes) * low tracking in comparison to other top tier long ranged weapons(less DPS when a target moving) * low DPS (its not behind by THAT much, but considering optimal conditions, it has the least DPS of all the long range turrets by 3%. this isn't much but considering when the conditions change the DPS falls more too. (damage difference with a bit of transversal will decrease more then a caldari railgun would have for instance) Some math to put tuxfords graph in perspective with ships Effective turrets megathron = 7 (bonus already applied in tux's chart) rokh = 8 (no bonus to be applied) tachs = 8 (with a waste of 2 lows) megabeams = 8 (no bonus to be applied) tempest = 7.5 (with a 25% damage bonus) (please consider this is with no transversal, this would hurt a tempest the most due to low tracking) multiply that graph by these numbers and you gets (still a skewed idea, but ppl are talking about the amound of effective turrets to much) anyway, personally without the alpha the only other advantage i see is the big falloff and so with the big falloff the tempest will outdamage megathron. now with some tracking mods you can easily increase the optimal well beyond the max fall-off of a tempest. i think artillery's are going to lack when the HP boost goes through, and to be honest, a DPS increase isn't going to fix the problem. simply said, the dps doesn't lack (not by much imho anyway) its the role that artillery has, or better said, doesn't have. suggestions to fix this are so far: * increase DPS (by tuxford) * increase DPS even more (minmatar ppl) * increase damage and nerf rof (but still make it an increase in dot) i'll add a (crazy) one of my own aswell either leave or decrease optimal, and give a huge, (maybe even double) the fall-off. Pro's * you actually create an unique type of gun (high alpha, but a low chance of hitting something) thus actually creating artillery to be what they should be. a slow firing high damaging gun that has less accurancy then the other types. this was the original idea with projectiles aswell considering the size of the fall-off, the problem though is that the nerf in DPS is to heavy as it is, and other guns can easily increase optimal above the amount of fall-off the artillery's now have. (ac's have the same prob but they have barrage which makes the vaga (in combination with other stuff too) a very good ship.) * will hit a long way out, but will do less damage when doing so. (dont forget the targeting range of a tempest is very small, and currently there are no modules that can increase fall-off. (might be a good time to implement some) Cons's * Tempest will lack DPS * no steady DPS (fall-off is more of a chance based game) its probably not feasible, but maybe someone else can think of a good role, since personally i think thats whats lacking, not the DPS's 250's are definitely more versatile, but All the cool kids are using 280's.
War Bear Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:49:00 - [257] Here's a question. Would a rate of fire help matters? Not talking AC refire rates but a rate maybe cut in half. It'll still have limitations because of artillery's tracking but it'll boost its damage quite nicely. Granted I would LIKE to see the alpha strike preserved but in lieu of that I'd take better refire rate on the artys. No matter where you go, there you are.
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 08:49:00 - [258] Wait. I have an idea. Let's reduce the effectiveness of T2 turret ammo, which takes a large amount of training, therefore hurting the already range-challenged Minmatar, and then introduce a ship that has insanely ridiculous range. But it'll be a Caldari ship, because they need a turret ship and we may as well make them the kings of all turret range. Why? Am I going to be able to reach my current range if I put a rig on? Or am I just going to suck, completely, using my Tempest as a sniper? Higher HP is always a nerf to alpha strike, if you boost HP in any proportion more than artillery damage is boosted. It appears (for some reason) that the set in stone goal of the developers is to prolong combat. If so, fine, but realize that a mere 5% artillery boost does not restore Minmatar to actually having something special about them in their DPS profile. It just puts a bandaid on it. I haven't done testing, I don't have numbers to throw at you. All I want is for the different races to stay a bit distinct in their damage types and where, over the course of combat, that combat does not become, like so many other games, just staring at health bars and waiting after you've mentally figured out that you're going to win the battle...and waiting...and waiting. What does that do? Make the game more interesting? No, UNLESS having different ships in your fleet makes the beginning, middle, and end of combat different. And to do that, you've got to keep alpha strike, maybe even BOOST alpha strike (but not so much that smaller ships pop too easily), and make Amarr the kings of overall DPS (they're going to run out of cap anyway), and if you really want to, put every Caldari boy and girl into a Rokh at 249km.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:39:00 - [259] (Those parts deleted with which I agree or to which I can't be bothered to take exception. ) Originally by: Incub To make a long post short, Advantages of artillery * No cap usage (on ac's its nice, on artillery's its barely an advantage. it was like 3 cap every 10 seconds on a gankapest) You don't compare the zero cap use with the (nowadays nonexistent) low-cap use arties, you compare it with current rails and lasers, which use enough that you cannot sustain them without cap mods. Originally by: Incub Disadvantages of artillery * low DPS (its not behind by THAT much, but considering optimal conditions, it has the least DPS of all the long range turrets by 3%. this isn't much but considering when the conditions change the DPS falls more too. (damage difference with a bit of transversal will decrease more then a caldari railgun would have for instance) Without the 5% damage increase: Maelstrom vs Megathron: Mael does 3.2% more damage Maelstrom vs Rokh: Mael does 12.8% more damage Tempest vs Megathron: Mega does 3.4% more damage Tempest vs Rokh: Tempest does 5.8% more damage With the 5% damage increase: Maelstrom outdamages Mega by 8.4% Maelstrom outdamages Rokh by 18.4% Tempest outdamages Mega by 1.5% Tempest outdamages Rokh by 11.1% Artillery does not lack DPS - or if it does, rails lack it even more. By the way, Rokh's effective turrets should be 8/1.25=6.4 if you use Tuxford's graph. Artillery's role? Best weapon system in the game for sniping within its optimal with the best damage type and zero cap use. If shield tanks come back with Rokh, the arty damage type is not all that hot against them - you'll want some lasers in the fleet for those. And of course, laser DoT (unmodified by resistances) is the absolute best there is. For real long-range sniping, you'll want Rokhs, of course. So, future sniping fleets might be: 1) Maelstroms and Armageddons for 100-150km range or 2) Rokhs for ultra-long range. Megas? Forget them, just train for Rokh if you already have the rail skills. -- NMTZ forum
Incub Minmatar DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:41:00 - [260] as i said before you are comparing the guns in the optimal condition (no transversal within both turrets optimal range) compare it like this, the mega can target further AND can currently outdamage the tempest by 3% with optimal conditions. with no optimal conditions the mega would be even further ahead... about your graphs, the easy condition currently being used is range != damage, problem is it doesn't work for artillery, since they dont have the better dps, nor do they have the range. its like a lose/lose situation 250's are definitely more versatile, but All the cool kids are using 280's.

Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.13 11:28:00 - [261] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 13/11/2006 11:29:05 Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 13/11/2006 11:27:58 Originally by: Theron Gyrow Without the 5% damage increase: Tempest vs Megathron: Mega does 3.4% more damage Tempest vs Rokh: Tempest does 5.8% more damage Using best T1 ammo, the Tempest does ~9% less damage than the Mega at max skills. T2 is not everything you know. Nor does everyone have Minmatar BB 5, and with lower BB skills the gap widens further. And while you might need a cap mod to counter the capneed of rails, we need a fitting mod to fit 6 1400-IIs on a Tempest too, you use cap but our tracking and optimal sucks so meh... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.14 12:50:00 - [262] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Theron Gyrow Without the 5% damage increase: Tempest vs Megathron: Mega does 3.4% more damage Tempest vs Rokh: Tempest does 5.8% more damage Using best T1 ammo, the Tempest does ~9% less damage than the Mega at max skills. What ammo are you talking about? With EMP, Tempest currently does about 11% less damage than Mega with AM, but with long-range ammo the situation turns around - iron vs carb lead, Tempest outdamages Mega by ~16%, tungsten vs nuclear by ~13%. -- NMTZ forum
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.11.20 10:32:00 - [263] Originally by: XR Havoc Presently the usage of arty vs rails requires a fundamentally different style of play, those styles are: Rails/Beams: Medium range, higher DPS Arty: Low actual DPS, high alpha strike, extreme range, poor tracking Um, Artillery and extreme range? Have I missed something? Not only do Hybrids have better optimal and better "best range" (taking falloff into account), they are also the only guns for which several ships get +100% optimal bonus.
PHPR Freighter	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:53:00 - [264] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Are you considering to lower the RoF of arties to make up for their increased DPS? Because, not alot of the Minmatar crowd minded the low DPS. They accepted it as one of the disadvantages. Quote: Amen... I am minmatar and I run into cap probs all the time. Using Autocannons/Artilleries on a Vexor, despite the bonuses I am mission, allows me to tank and repair longer then a minmatar ship. If I have alot of cap, sure, I will use Railguns. I prefer railguns over ACs and Arties over rails anyday. But how I fit my ships (Cyclone, Ferox, Vexor and so on) all depends on my cap situation, if I am doing level 4s and if I am needed as a shield repper for the group, or just soloing level 3s or level 2s. If I am doing level 3s, I will need all the cap I need for my hardeners, and for level 2s, I will fit hybrids and just kill them with that and my drones... It all depends on perspective and I don't think the arties need fixing. If they get in close because you have nothing but arties on, your fault and go re-fit. I run into that problem all of the time. And this is from someone that has used every weapon type out there via 3 accounts :P I know this is old, but I thought this caught my attention more then anything on the other pages.
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem.	Posted - 2006.11.21 19:55:00 - [265] Artillery is not for 1v1 combat. Using it in such a comparison is meaningless. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Dietogethere	Posted - 2006.11.24 08:32:00 - [266] Kali is going to be online at 28-29 and artillery is going to suck. i am depressed :( i think i'm gonna tackle with sabre all the time for our rokh and abaddon pilots.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.11.24 09:57:00 - [267] Originally by: Dietogethere Kali is going to be online at 28-29 and artillery is going to suck. i am depressed :( i think i'm gonna tackle with sabre all the time for our rokh and abaddon pilots. Well, 5% artillery boost might go live, and hp boost hasnt stayed at 50% hp. Unfortunately, this still leaves BS sized artillery ships at a deficit - because other battleships are now so far superior. The Maelstrom is a big pile of Sucky Mcsuck, whilst the Rokh and Abaddon are now the fleet ships of choice. This won't stop them from being flown, and it won't stop Minmatar purists from loving them, but from a pure balance point of view it's still wrong somewhere there, especially with Quake being nerfed so hard. Try hitting anything with normal ammo at the range Quake fires at and you'll miss. Now try hitting it with a tracking penalty. Whilst javs have been nerfed to a 'balanced' point, the already-balanced quake is now nerfed to pointlessness. In short, ladies and gentleman, if you're given the choice, flying a Minmatar battleship is a total nono. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Kharo Khann Cosmology	Posted - 2006.11.24 20:14:00 - [268] I agree with Testy,.. T2 art is nearly useless with the nerfed Quake ammo. To hit something you have to sit still and shoot, which is rather unnatural for "fast and agile" Minmatar ships.
Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2006.11.24 21:24:00 - [269] Edited by: Crewman Jenkins on 24/11/2006 21:24:52 Looks like theres a 5% increase on the damage mod on test. 7.245 instead of 6.9 now for t2.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.11.24 21:48:00 - [270] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/11/2006 21:49:57 Originally by: Crewman Jenkins Looks like theres a 5% increase on the damage mod on test. 7.245 instead of 6.9 now for t2. They also boosted boosted ships, shields and plates with 25-50%, so the extra 5% damage to artillery isnt very impressive. But I think it puts it on par with railguns... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2006.11.24 22:28:00 - [271] The HP boost went down from yesterday's test build. At least it did on the hurricane.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.27 09:17:00 - [272] Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 27/11/2006 09:17:54 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/11/2006 21:49:57 Originally by: Crewman Jenkins Looks like theres a 5% increase on the damage mod on test. 7.245 instead of 6.9 now for t2. They also boosted boosted ships, shields and plates with 25-50%, so the extra 5% damage to artillery isnt very impressive. But I think it puts it on par with railguns... A bit above them for RoF/damage bonus ships, actually, and at zero cap cost. As I see it, the Gallente railship/Minmatar artilleryship situation post-patch is (with one damage bonus on rails, with damage/RoF bonus on artilleries): Major advantage, railship: Optimal range Ease of fitting gridwise One "free" ship bonus (too bad this is often wasted on active tanking/MWD, tracking is at least semi-useful also with rails) Minor advantage, railship: Tracking (very minor without ship bonus) Larger magazines Minor disadvantage, railship: Lower damage Lower falloff Only kinetic/thermal damage Higher ammo consumption Low alpha strike Major disadvantage, railship: High, often unsustainable cap use Very high CPU requirements Major advantage, artyship: Zero cap use Ease of fitting CPUwise Minor advantage, artyship: Better DoT Better alpha strike Better falloff Some options to change damage type Lower ammo consumption Minor disadvantage, artyship: Tracking Smaller magazines Major disadvantage, artyship: Shorter optimal range High grid requirements Balanced? Possibly - and if not, it's the rails that are the worse off. I do not think that the 5% damage increase is/was necessary, and I do think that it might be a good idea to change the Controlled Bursts skill to -10% cap use per level, but it's probably time to see how it goes. Did I forget anything? -- NMTZ forum
Gimpslayer	Posted - 2006.11.27 17:43:00 - [273] y'all kiss so much tuxford ass it makes me nauseous.
Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2006.11.28 00:32:00 - [274] So, you don't think the shorter optimal range disadvantage amplifies the tracking disadvantage on arty?
Kamikaze	Posted - 2006.12.01 20:54:00 - [275] I like to see a differnce between ships and there guns, if there all balanced then whats the point? Just use tactics that favor you gunnry and try not to get drawn into a fight that favors another ships gunnry. With that said, i haven't seen it here, if i missed it sorry. Since i stink with numbers as anyone did any numbers for the "Mach" with mim bs 5 galy bs 5 and maxed gunnry for long and short range. how does it compare to the other ships dps.
Qutsemnie Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.03 10:31:00 - [276] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 03/12/2006 10:45:50 "Balanced? Possibly - and if not, it's the rails that are the worse off" You know thats one of those arguments where you can get caught up in the details and maybe go back and forth. But when you read that sentence I think if you have at all fought with both you go "what? theres no way rails are worse off than arty..." BTW I dont think that tracking advantage is as minor as you make it out to be. Of everything im about to say the most annoying thing about the arties is there tracking. And there is alot of situations where that "minor" advantage is the difference between hitting and not hitting at all. The arty have serious issues with cruisers in pve where a railgun would handle the same range and travesle easy. the 1400s stop tracking well on cruisers at relatively far range. The ammo "disadvantage" on rails usually manifest as an advantage in pve in my experience. The variety of damage types in a 1400 is also tied to a range/damage amount. So that you cant just switch you have to switch and go the appropriate range and sacrifice overall dps in alot of context. I called the hybrid damage type advantage because in alot of situations while trying to use arty ammo you look over at hybrid ammo and go damn I wish I could use that...
Melicien Tetro Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:52:00 - [277] Originally by: Kharo Khann I agree with Testy,.. T2 art is nearly useless with the nerfed Quake ammo. To hit something you have to sit still and shoot, which is rather unnatural for "fast and agile" Minmatar ships. I don't know if slowing down for a huge alpha-strike is so big a disadvantage. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be damned if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.07 09:10:00 - [278] Originally by: Qutsemnie BTW I dont think that tracking advantage is as minor as you make it out to be. Of everything im about to say the most annoying thing about the arties is there tracking. And there is alot of situations where that "minor" advantage is the difference between hitting and not hitting at all. The arty have serious issues with cruisers in pve where a railgun would handle the same range and travesle easy. the 1400s stop tracking well on cruisers at relatively far range. Basic advantage in tracking: 150mm rails vs 280mm artys: 6.1% 250mm rails vs 720mm artys: 4.5% 425mm rails vs 1400mm artys: 6.9% I'd call that pretty minor, to be honest. If you include the Megathron ship bonus (listed under "Major advantage, railship" as the free available bonus), then the tracking difference absolutely matters, and matters a lot. Originally by: Qutsemnie The ammo "disadvantage" on rails usually manifest as an advantage in pve in my experience. The variety of damage types in a 1400 is also tied to a range/damage amount. So that you cant just switch you have to switch and go the appropriate range and sacrifice overall dps in alot of context. I called the hybrid damage type advantage because in alot of situations while trying to use arty ammo you look over at hybrid ammo and go damn I wish I could use that... Heh. I do still believe that being able to go for known resistance holes gives an increase to the effective DoT, but I'm willing to count that as a "grass is greener" (non-)advantage. -- NMTZ forum
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.11 14:13:00 - [279] Tux, unstick this if you arent going to reply to it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.11 17:47:00 - [280] Originally by: Tuxford Lets start this by taking a look at this image. Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. In all other aspects its ranks low, except in alpha damage which usefulness has been somewhat diminished. Tux, Please don't look at the lack of cap usage as a slight advantage, please look at the cap usage on Amarr and Gallente ships (especially Amarr) as a huge disadvantage. Some of us have been discussing. Was it an Amarr pilot that gave you your first pod kill and that is why you hate us so?

Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.11 17:54:00 - [281] Originally by: Old Geeza OMG HE POSTED ABOUT MINMATAR INSTEAD OF AMARR DISPITE HIM ALREADY SAYING HE'S LOOKING AT AMARR. TUXFORD FOR THE LOOOOOSEEEE!!!! Grow up and wait. Quote: Fair enough Old, I guess we would also like to see some ideas of what he is planning to help us enjoy this game again. As much as I like DOW - Dark Crusade, I miss getting on Eve but I'm just not enjoying this game any more.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2006.12.18 11:29:00 - [282] Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Tuxford Lets start this by taking a look at this image. Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. In all other aspects its ranks low, except in alpha damage which usefulness has been somewhat diminished. Tux, Please don't look at the lack of cap usage as a slight advantage, please look at the cap usage on Amarr and Gallente ships (especially Amarr) as a huge disadvantage. Some of us have been discussing. Was it an Amarr pilot that gave you your first pod kill and that is why you hate us so? take the equivalent to arties that is rails.. and you will see that cap usage is of minimal significance. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.18 16:29:00 - [283] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Tuxford Lets start this by taking a look at this image. Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. In all other aspects its ranks low, except in alpha damage which usefulness has been somewhat diminished. Tux, Please don't look at the lack of cap usage as a slight advantage, please look at the cap usage on Amarr and Gallente ships (especially Amarr) as a huge disadvantage. Some of us have been discussing. Was it an Amarr pilot that gave you your first pod kill and that is why you hate us so? take the equivalent to arties that is rails.. and you will see that cap usage is of minimal significance. Not sure what you mean. Can you explain differently?
Atha'an	Posted - 2006.12.19 02:40:00 - [284] Basic advantage in tracking: 150mm rails vs 280mm artys: 6.1% 250mm rails vs 720mm artys: 4.5% 425mm rails vs 1400mm artys: 6.9% I'd call that pretty minor, to be honest. I dont think this is completely relevant: if you can hit with rails and you cant with arties, then even this 'minor difference' means the rails are better. Plus a difference of 10% is all you get with tracking enhancers, and if 6.9% is 'minor' why even EVER fit a tracking enhancher or even CPU? (granted CPU's do really make the difference larger, but thats not the point)
Omega Bloodstone Battlestars Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:46:00 - [285] Boost the arty's \0/. Cap has no real play when using arty's anyway so the advantage is when using autocannons. And about the no cap usage being a large advantage, most of our shield tank vessels have..uhmm...way less slots for tanking. Wait, did we forget that one??? The Vaga for example...shield tanker on a passive note...why? Not enough slots for the ladder!!! Just saying, arties need that Alpha strike back...it's an artillery cannon for sakes!!! Even with uber gunnery skills 1400 II's can be tanked due to slower rate of fire even with ROF bonus, that bonus is not an advantage, it's neccesary. It all plays out, they need a boost. And yes Amarr folks, Amarr need love to, I'm not saying they dont...I think they use a little to much cap assuming there role is to be the best tankers...because that it one of their primary roles. Take a Curse for example, a passive shield tank on a curse destroys an armor tanked curse. Of course destroying the e-war advantage...again...just saying.
Nadec Ascand British Legion The Core Collective	Posted - 2006.12.26 10:28:00 - [286] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Tuxford Lets start this by taking a look at this image. Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. In all other aspects its ranks low, except in alpha damage which usefulness has been somewhat diminished. Tux, Please don't look at the lack of cap usage as a slight advantage, please look at the cap usage on Amarr and Gallente ships (especially Amarr) as a huge disadvantage. Some of us have been discussing. Was it an Amarr pilot that gave you your first pod kill and that is why you hate us so? take the equivalent to arties that is rails.. and you will see that cap usage is of minimal significance. So use a Tron with 425 T2 and close range ammo... 30 cap basis with 25% malus from ammo => 37,5cap per shot but u have like i controlled burst 5 so => 28 cap usage / shot I use 3 dmg mod and have evry single gunery skill to 5 so rof is round 3sec cap per sec per gun => 9.3 7 gun => 65.3 cap/s Heavy nos T2 = 10cap/sec so 6,5 heavy nos ... Of course it dont help...


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