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dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:12:00 - [151] Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 11:13:14 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Kosakova Intrinnae Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. these are wrong btw, 25% reduction of rof is diffren from a damage increase it acturle gives you 33% more damage over time, when combined with a dammage bonus the increase of damage becomes 1.66%. heres a little example, 10x damage mod, 10 rof, before skills, 12.5x damage mod, 7.5 rof after skills, 12.5/7.5 = 1.6667 so tempest 6x 1.6667 = 10 Megathron 7x 1.25 = 8.75 Maelstrom = 8x 1.33 = 10.64 but artillery have crap dps to begin with so, no other ship in the game wants to fit them, so they are only useful on minmatar ships. That's wrong, too. You can't have Megathron in that list since it's got completely different turrets. Different damage types, cap usage, and base dps per turret. Effective number of turret comparisons only work by class. By the way, what's so wrong with dividents? Maelstrom = 8 / 0.75 = 10.67 projectiles) Ehh, there's nothing wrong with just stating how many 'effective guns' each ship has. You just need to know how to analyze it. Originally by: Ithildin As for the list, I believe it'll rather be something like, in terms of dps for long range: Abaddon (rof bonus and 8 turrets, not that cap holds) Hyperion (damage bonus on 8 projectiles) Armageddon Maelstrom Apocalypse (if you cram on 8 tachs, that is) Megathron Rokh (it hasn't got a damage bonus, but you can't beat it at range!) Tempest (might be above the Rokh, actually) Typhoon Raven Dominix (it wasn't meant for long range, anyway) Scorpion (it might do least damage, but it can jam you up and beyond 200km) Your list is quite wrong though. The list without any boost to projectiles will be: Abaddon (rof bonus and 8 turrets, not that cap holds) Armageddon Hyperion (damage bonus on 8 hybrids)(but supposed to have such short targeting range it can't be used in this comparision) Apocalypse (if you cram on 8 tachs, that is) Maelstrom Megathron Tempest Rokh ... skipped the rest, hardly any point in arguing the DPS of missile boats (which would be higher than Rokh but takes time to reach target) Notable: difference between mega and tempest is 3% difference between hyperion and apocalypse is 1% Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:16:00 - [152] Yes, nothing wrong with analysing number of effective guns, as long as you don't think that one effective energy turret can compare to one effective projectile - they just aren't equal anywhere. - What am I listening to?
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:28:00 - [153] I really stopped caring. Its good that tux realizes that if Arties sux they need a boost. I just wonder how on earth he began realizing so fast. Other races has sucked longtime, Projectiles gets a boost already before the changes are in effect
Silver Lady Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:28:00 - [154] Just great, from one bad thing to the next, whats the point of boosting ship hp by 50% if you are just going to beef minmitar damage and nullify it? Just remove the 50% ship hp increase and give minmatar their beef anyway, even though they dont need it. Poor amarr with their cap sucking lasers, wheres their beef? The gimps of EVE get even more gimpier.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:39:00 - [155] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 24/10/2006 11:39:30 Thanks for dealing with this Tuxford. I will suggest an original fix: - give the Tempest (and Machariel) a 7th turret slot - reduce projectile ammo size by 50% That's it. ;-)
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:47:00 - [156] Originally by: Pan Crastus Edited by: Pan Crastus on 24/10/2006 11:39:30 Thanks for dealing with this Tuxford. I will suggest an original fix: - give the Tempest (and Machariel) a 7th turret slot - reduce projectile ammo size by 50% That's it. ;-) Rofles.. how do you plan on fitting 7 1400s? (you need an RCU just to fit 6) Anyway Give the Artillery a bit moe damage and I think most of us artilley users will still love our "special" guns that dont hit. But might hit... and omg there is going to be hell wehn they hit.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:51:00 - [157] increase howi rof by 20% and damage by 25%. That should balance things out. (dont beat me if im wrong)
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:02:00 - [158] Originally by: Kamikaaazi increase howi rof by 20% and damage by 25%. That should balance things out. (dont beat me if im wrong) This would increase Howitzer dps by 4.17% - What am I listening to?
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:04:00 - [159] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Kamikaaazi increase howi rof by 20% and damage by 25%. That should balance things out. (dont beat me if im wrong) This would increase Howitzer dps by 4.17% well yeah, but you would still have really nice alpha strike. Hell, increase rof by 40% and damage by 50% if that makes you feel better :D
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:06:00 - [160] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Kamikaaazi increase howi rof by 20% and damage by 25%. That should balance things out. (dont beat me if im wrong) This would increase Howitzer dps by 4.17% well yeah, but you would still have really nice alpha strike. Hell, increase rof by 40% and damage by 50% if that makes you feel better :D This would increase damage by 7.14%. Very close to what team Scrapheap Challenge wishes. - What am I listening to?
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:47:00 - [161] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/10/2006 12:52:14 Originally by: dalman 1400t2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63.75)6 = 2.336 425t2 on thron: 3.3/9.567 = 2.416 2.416/2.336 = 1.034 How exactly is it that a megathron doesn't do 3% more DPS than a tempest? (except for reloading) And what's this about "DOT terms with equal ammo"? The most common used T1 ammo in long-range setups are long range ammos, with which projectiles outdamage hybrids. Ignoring skills 4tl. Max skill numbers: All with 3 damage mods. for realistic setup/situation comparison which I know you like. Tempest 1400mm T2: ROF - 9.75 DMG - 17.24x Mega 425mm T2: ROF - 5.26 DMG - 8.24x Geddon Megabeam T2: ROF - 3.72 DMG - 7.19x Now using those numbers and T2 ranged ammo "cos who compares noob T1 ammo"... yeah cos everyone has t2 ammo... nevermind, lets not get balance for noobs using t1 or that t2 ammo might not be best for the situation ect ect. Using ranged T2 ammo: Tempest: 381 DPS - 3723 Alpha - 37230 Dmg per clip - 107 sec Firing Time - 346 DOT Mega: 394 dps - 2077 Alpha - 83094 Dmg per clip - 220 sec firing time - 376 DOT Geddon: 487 dps - 1812 Alpha - ermmm crystals being a bit random DOT is as good as equal DPS... So taking the DPS (ignored reloads) the Tempest has 96.7% of the DPS of the Mega, 3% difference. Now including reloads (which takes arty the longest as the rof is largest so takes longest to realise it has to reload) the tempest now has 91.9% of the Megas DPS. The Tempest has to reload after 107 seconds of constant firing, at that point it is already behind in DPS terms, then the reload puts it further behind. The fact it reloads 2x as much as a Mega (220 seconds per clip) lowers that DPS even more. So if you want to use "we run out of cap" as an arguement you want to use DOT as that is the most accurate comparison for the time scale for megas/geddons to run out of cap. Originally by:* dalman I do find this situation hilarious. With the suggestion ppl are whining for: rail boats will have lowest DPS of fleet ships. rail boats will by far have the lowest alpha-strike. rail boats will have the same cap issues as amarr - with cap running dry in long fights. rail boats will have the logistic problem of consuming thousands of ammo-rounds. rail boats will have second best tracking behind amarr. rail boats will have the best range, but this can not be used! All fleets consists of different ships and are positioned at ranges to fit lasers/projectiles. So your saying that having same dps and more range is not a benifit? Tell that to the Amarr's complaining about there "short" range guns which have more range and less dps than blasters.... I bet then range is a benifit isn't it? You'll find the reasonable suggestions try to reduce the DOT difference without making the DPS highest.... Such as: ammo size reduction (will help carrying enough ammo for AC's with the increased HP) Loads more ammo, so less reloads. DMG mod increase to still make alpha strike effective (not insta popping everything as some people think they can...) Make the ROF slower to balance the DPS (this would lower the DOT to since time it takes to fire again after the last shot will be longer before it realises it has to reload). AMMO PROBLEMS FROM RAILS!!?!? LMAO yeah, use AC's with the smallest racial cargo bay then complain about ammo use. Mega's alpha is second with lasers third. Lets not forget than Gallente are a BLASTER race, Caldari are the snipers... Your complaining about a ship that gets ROF and DMG bonus to get same dps as a ship with just one DMG bonus, plus tracking bonus so it can hit more... Obviously anyone who questions Gallante being great at everything is a whiner... ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Al Haquis Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:54:00 - [162] You guys seriusly need to get laid. With love from Al Haquis
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:55:00 - [163] this is why i and others i know left eve after 2 years of play. sheep following sheep ftl just look at the ecm changes still waiting for decent balance and more pvp before i return
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:02:00 - [164] Originally by: Al Haquis You guys seriusly need to get laid. With love from Al Haquis Ow. Hot coffee burns the sinuses. --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Capt Harlock Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:19:00 - [165] BEHOLD!!!! I bring you the general purpose gun!!! And!!!!!! The general purpose ship they are called the cookie cutter modules and ships they all do the same.... problem solved. Everyone will be happy then. Oh wait no they won't. Tuxford you may just have the impossible job m8 balancing races that are so different must be one big pita. Good luck.
Zyrla Bladestorm Minmatar Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:30:00 - [166] Originally by: Kosakova Intrinnae Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/10/2006 09:22:57 6x 1.25 x 1.25 = 9.375 effective guns.(tempest) 7x 1.25 = 8.75 effective guns. (Megathron) 8x 1.25 = 10 effective guns. (Maelstrom) Its just that multiplication that sometimes catches people out I think. these are wrong btw, 25% reduction of rof is diffren from a damage increase it acturle gives you 33% more damage over time, when combined with a dammage bonus the increase of damage becomes 1.66%. heres a little example, 10x damage mod, 10 rof, before skills, 12.5x damage mod, 7.5 rof after skills, 12.5/7.5 = 1.6667 so tempest 6x 1.6667 = 10 Megathron 7x 1.25 = 8.75 Maelstrom = 8x 1.33 = 10.64 but artillery have crap dps to begin with so, no other ship in the game wants to fit them, so they are only useful on minmatar ships. Posting before being entirely awake for the lose, apparently . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:07:00 - [167] Originally by: Al Haquis You guys seriusly need to get laid. With love from Al Haquis I think that could cause problems in the middle of a lab plus the GF wouldn't be to impressed since she ain't here. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
ProphetGuru Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:10:00 - [168] Originally by: dalman 1400t2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63.75)6 = 2.336 425t2 on thron: 3.3/9.567 = 2.416 2.416/2.336 = 1.034 How exactly is it that a megathron doesn't do 3% more DPS than a tempest? (except for reloading) See, this is the problem with using a simple set of numbers either FOR or AGAINST changes like this. Yes, with your numbers the difference is 3%, and that translates how when it comes to application? How long does that 3% really come into play please? Reloading matters. Tracking matters. Fighting in fall off all the time for reduced effectiveness of hits matters. The way any of you (for or against) use numbers in a vaccum to make or disprove your arguments is part of the reason I avoid this forum most of the time after so long. Quote:* You're (PG) a common poster on the alliance/corp section PG. Take a look at the corp recognition threads, where BoB members (dunno if you were actually one of them) write stuff like "scary tempest fleets" as description of Catalysm Enterprises and ASW. How the heck can their tempest fleets be scary if the tempest is so far behind other ships? Not sure I would advocate using anything from that forum as a line of reason for ship balance but I do understand what you mean. Don't believe I ever said that, but I recall seeing it as well. Mostly before the last hp increase right? Besides, with G it was more a matter of the fact that they had 90% tempests with ecm, not so much about their dmg. Quote: You know how unhappy I am with T2 ammo for example, So say we all... p.s. juan how exactly? this isin't the corp and alliance forums... "you're wrong" doesn't quite cut it here. elaborate or stfu Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:29:00 - [169] Originally by: Sandra Tseng Just a curious question, I have decided not to get involved in this "Boost-Amarr" campaigh - but: Do you factor in that when ammo runs out for Blasters/rails, Missiles, Auotcannons/martillery you have to wait 10 seconds to reload? 10 seconds while the amarr ship just sits and blasts and blasts away? 10 seconds gets 20 seconds after a while - then 30. 30 seconds is a long time to sit and tank while you get pummeled by tachyon lasers all the time... just a curious question.. _ I guess you've never tried to use Tachs on a Geddon then :/ it'l be out of cap long before you reload (unless you want to use an Injector or 4-5 cap mods just to be able to keep guns active) the ROF bonus it gets does help greatly with damage but otherwise just makes it use more cap over time, compared to gallente's Damage bonus which -lucky for them-, dosent get that
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:56:00 - [170] played a bit with 5% bonus and i'm not that sure is enought to balance these weapons... the no cap in long range fights is useless so i will not consider it a bonus and arty suffer from other problems and not just for dps arty is also the long range weapon with shortest range and worst tracking. and on top of that it doesn't get full benefit from tracking mods (as a big part of its range is due to falloff) for minnie ships are also a bit problematic to fit as, many times, minnies have PG "balanced" to take in account the low PG requirements of autocannons. to do a crappy example is it like to have neutrons that do less base dps than ACs. is it true that some minnie ships have 2 bonuses but we also see that the pest have 1-2 less guns than other ships and this balance out the higher dps that 2 dmg bonuses gives. so even in this case it ends with the usual problem that minnie ship need 2 bonuses to be comparable to other ships in dps and other ships use just 1 bonus and have the second bonus "free" for other nice boosts (as tanking) so imo as alpha is going to be almost neglected arty need some serious rework... 5% damage imo is not enought at all. i think the "progression" should be similar to close range... if arty is the shortest range (as it is now) its base dps should be at least comparable to 425mm base dps. so the solutions imo are 2... - keep it as now but boost the dps even more than now - boost it just by 5% but give also a big tracking and range bonuses, to give it better range and accuracy than 425mm (even with tracking mods) another thing that i think is to consider is res... for short range (imo) res are not that important, but in long range you can't really tank your ships, but just boost hps or res a bit (exept for the rokh that probably will be an awesome tank ) arty atm is quite effective because all fleet ships are "armor oriented" ships so the low dps is balanced both by alpha and better damage type. but with the introduction of the rokh i suspect that the situation will change and many (if not most) ships will be "shield oriented"... my fear is that with kali arty will suffer from the same problems as lasers but whitout its huge base damage potential.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.24 15:10:00 - [171] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Ignoring skills 4tl. If you don't understand that if we have two variables x and y and then multiply both with the same numbers z getting zx and zy, then zx/zy = x/y... ...then perhaps you should reconsider if balance discussions are for you. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:27:00 - [172] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 24/10/2006 16:29:05 Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2006 15:33:25 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Ignoring skills 4tl. edited to less harsh version:p Yea, and now: try figure out why it took you one page to get to exactly the same result I got in 2 lines. Because lowering the ROF though ermmm skills, changes the reload points... affecting the DOT. Making the actual damage output ermm not 3% like you said because of said reloads... For someone who wants accurate realistic situations/setups then not using real skills makes you a bit of a hypocrite, using accuracy when it suits you. Still the fact is that DOT is the "best case", with the lower tracking and range there IS a period where Mega has a clear difference from the Pest. I myself don't want a DPS increase, I want a DOT increase through more damage per clip. Be this through increased clip size and/or dmg mod increase/slower rof I don't care. I just want that sole advantage of alpha strike to still have some meaning with the extra HP. Is this so wrong? ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:34:00 - [173] Originally by: dalman 1400t2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63.75)6 = 2.336 425t2 on thron: 3.3/9.567 = 2.416 2.416/2.336 = 1.034 How exactly is it that a megathron doesn't do 3% more DPS than a tempest? (except for reloading) And what's this about "DOT terms with equal ammo"? The most common used T1 ammo in long-range setups are long range ammos, with which projectiles outdamage hybrids. 1. Fitting. Tempest To fit 6 x 1400 II you need AWU lvl 5. To fit some kind of tank into tempest - you will need to install rcu. Still with 5 lows - you are unable to install good tank. Mega You CAN fit 7 x 425 II AND 2 plates AND EAN AND dmg mods \ tracking ench. 2. Optimal. Tempest With 2 x tracking comps + 1 tracking ench i have an optimal of 155km. Mega With 1 tracking comp you are allready beating tempest optimal. Add tracking enh. to make minnie pilots cry. 3. Tracking. Tempest unable to hit *, if you are shooting non-battleship target. 3 volleys on blackbird 150km from me, ** yeah ! Mega doing fine with small targets. 4. Capacitor. Tempest full cap, and you are unable to spend it, because of powergrid issues for installing large repair. Mega - cap starting to break after 5 minutes of fighting. (When you are fighting competent opponent - this isn`t issue at all, since you can play "duckshooting" only when fight ascn). 5. Damage Tempest : Amarr, shoot this newb allready, i need to damage his armor. Mega : f1 - f7. So : More tank, more damage, more tracking, more optimal, prefferable (at least for me) damage types. And who is looking pathetic ? Rage and Terror - making people quit EVE.
Tyler Lowe Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 16:41:00 - [174] Good grief, give the guy a break already Tux, I'm not much for graphs and figures, but intuitively, a 5% damage boost to the arty pieces themselves along side a 20% decrease in ammo size "feels" about right. I guess the only real question I have is when can we expect to see this begin some testing for a more solid feel of where we stand with arty after the expansion's release? J.A.F.O.
Octavio Santillian	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:45:00 - [175] Originally by: Tuxford Lets start this by taking a look at... Thanks for taking a look at this Tux. I donÆt think this can be the final word, but the fact that you are looking at it is comforting. A 5% increase in arty was in order BEFORE the proposed HP boost. With a 50% more everthing, it will be very hard for any Alpha based ship (be it an arty boat or a Destroyer) to do its thing. It seems this is an attempt to rework Arty into being more like other long range guns (i.e. similar DPS, slight Alpha advantage, slight range disadvantage). I still have grave reservation about the HP boost. Kali is looking very scary for the Minmatar (and yes the Amarr, but this is a Matari thread). As IÆm sure you know, we are not happy with our tier III; it simply is not a significantly better fleet ship than the Tempest for the cost and sacrifice of two very, very useful high slots. The HP boost is going to adversely affect us in myriad ways (e.g. hit and run, alpha, ammo use, the general Matari disadvantage in tanking will increase, no more stababonds, etc.). ECM is going to become a power club for the Caldari and harder to use for the rest of the races. Now I know you say you are looking into a lot of these issues, but with a release date looming it is very hard to believe you can pay proper attention to the massive changes that are being put in place. Please, I implore you and the other Devs to take your time, listen (even though many comments are crap), and get it right the first time. We pay for this game, and it sucks to have to wait on a fix. In any case, again, thanks for reassuring us that you realize there is indeed a problem with artillery. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:02:00 - [176] Well this is a car crash of a thread. All I'm going to say is: Listen, you dumb morons, just because Tux posts about one thing does not mean he doesn't care or isn't thinking about other issues as well. This is a post adressing artillery issues with the HP increase. That does not mean that Amarr is being ignored. Please feel free to mention Amarr issues as a side note in your posts if you feel they're important and/or related (as I do). Please don't feel free to take a single posts about a single issue as damming evidence that other issues are being ignored or that the sky is falling. Have a nice day. - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:29:00 - [177] Tux, if you manage to find this post amongst all the others in this thread, a couple of questions: 1) Did you manage to re-graph yet? 2) Are any of these suggestions making sense? Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Sergej Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.10.24 18:34:00 - [178] Dear Tuxfor, Please do the same graph for weapons fitted on the current tier 2 BS (well except amarr:P, tier 1 for the damn slavers and I have no idea how tier3 factor in), max number of weapons possible. On a long range setup, you always go for full guns. Same argument of course does not apply to ACs/blasters, as you can ue the utility slots there. Could be my math is off, but according to my numbers long term DPS of tempest is more than 20% lower than that of other long range BS. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll shut up for ever, but please do the graphs. Not to mention we get faloff instead of optimal, which doesn't get that nice *4 bonus when you go from short range to long range... That's a different story, though. Thanks, Sergej
d'Mortaigne PAIN.	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:14:00 - [179] Hurray! Another boost not related to Amarr! Hurray! --------------- It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Too Kind	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:47:00 - [180] Edited by: Too Kind on 24/10/2006 20:53:02 Edited by: Too Kind on 24/10/2006 20:52:11 Don't know, if it's been said already, but I suppose the tables are dps figures. Then I wonder if they are correct at ranges greater opti-range. It looks like the dps at opti-range + falloff is at 50% of the maximum dps. That can't be true as I understand it, because the max-damage has already fallen to 50% at this point, but there is another chance-to hit penalty of 50%, so the dps suffers a double penalty and must be worse than 50% at opti-range plus falloff ( probably down to around 25% already and all dps curves should fall down faster. And that makes a difference, especially if you look at the blue curve and compare it to the red one and imagine, they'd fall faster. ^^) Or do I miss something ? -------------------------- Post with your main !!!111

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