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Hitpoint boost and artilleries

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:23:00 - [31] Edited by: Toaster Oven on 23/10/2006 12:22:43 Originally by: Tuxford Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. WTF, Tux please tell me you're kidding Assume all lvl 5 skills and 0 dmg mods: Tempest with 1400mm II = +18.4 cap/s remaining Apoc with Tachyon Beam II = -5.7 cap/s remaining, -2 low slots fitting Geddon with Tachyon Beam II = -17.4 cap/s remaining, -2 low slots fitting How is using no cap not that "great" of an advantage? I need to fit a damn cap injector and waste 2 low slots to fit Tachyons and be able to continue firing them, like a Tempest can. A Tempest can do a helluva lot with 3 extra slots to play with that it doesn't need to waste on fitting/cap mods.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:24:00 - [32] Originally by: Toaster Oven Tempest can. A Tempest can do a helluva lot with 3 extra slots to play with that it doesn't need to waste on fitting/cap mods. TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:24:00 - [33] He said it's not much of a plus point for artillery, not guns in general. Artillery used **-all cap to begin with, and tbh we barely noticed it when it was taken away. As for the guy who commented on being nossed - if you get nossed with artillery, you've generally **** up somehow and you're going to die anyway. Tuxford has also commented that it is a good advantage for autocannons which are used at close range. Is it not that hard to understand? _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:26:00 - [34] Originally by: Testy Mctest I'm not 100% sure what your graphs are showing/against, but from ours, the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. +5% damage and smaller ammo, sorted ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull****. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim.
AsfALT	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:27:00 - [36] After how much time of constant fiering dose a Mega / Arma remain without cap?
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:28:00 - [37] Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull****. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim. Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:29:00 - [38] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Toaster Oven Tempest can. A Tempest can do a helluva lot with 3 extra slots to play with that it doesn't need to waste on fitting/cap mods. TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. While i disagree, your point is moot since we need RCU IIs for Mega Beams too. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull***. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim. Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. OK, now add the 25% bonus to damage to ALL your 7 railguns with BS lvl 5 skill and the 37,5% to tracking. ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE*
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull****. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim. Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. OK, now add the 25% bonus to damage to ALL your 7 railguns with BS lvl 5 skill and the 37,5% to tracking. OWNED tbh. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Tassi Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:42:00 - [41] you goddamn amarr whiners. Once I was one of em but people told me to learn and adapt, guess what? Power of 2 brought Tassi a nice caldari specced char and I am VERY happy with it The term "learn and adapt" can be translated into "go and train caldari". Let's go and train caldari
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:42:00 - [42] Edited by: Hoshi on 23/10/2006 12:42:38 Originally by: Tuxford Where do you get your graphs from? Are you comparing with shortest range t1 ammo because the graph does not look as errm nice with that. There is the slight possibility that my program might be off. I'll have a talk with my guy when he wakes up. Most people use Naughty Boys Excel sheets which allow you to get a graph with the best ammo for each range used. Very nice sheet.
MeGrand Gallente Thunder Talons 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:43:00 - [43] i am not a mathmetican so i am left wondering the following:- Artiary and cap use - agreed no cap use is handy on the auto's but lets think about artiallary for a momment take (for example) One megathron Vs One tempest Assume for the sake of argument an equall reistances on both ships, assume also they have the same tank (armour reps) Now apply the HP changes Now who wins? Megathron If:- It dose not run out of cap for guns/tank before it can break the tempest tanks Tempest If:- The tank is not broken (or runs out of cap, remember that mimitar have far less cap to start with), does it have the chance to use its remaning time to finish off the megathron The battle i'm invisioniong would be a case of both attack, mega fires away, come very close to killing tempest and runs out of cap, tempest can keep frieing and kill the thron - esseantly one is a hard but short punch the other an endurance fighter - damm odd for mimitar (hit and run anyone?) So what do people think would happen in suck a senario... All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:45:00 - [44] While I do feel that 5% damage boost might be just a bit short of what arties really require, instead of an increased damage mod I would not mind an additional slight boost in tracking to compensate. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Draycar Hazaran	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:47:00 - [45] Edited by: Draycar Hazaran on 23/10/2006 12:50:00 I'm not a math whiz(at all). My curiousity leads me to the effects of the HP boost on the viability a Thrasher or Wolf with 280mm IIs for frig-popping. Is this no longer viable? Am I going to be able to do significant damage before either the range closes or his transversal goes through the roof after lighting a propulsion mod? Once this happens, I die(if he's smart enough to stay just outside webbing anyway). As it stands with mid-grade to low end of good gunnery skills, I can usually pop an untanked T1 frig, but Inties require 2-3 volleys(before you freak out, do you honestly sit still in your interceptor very often?), and AFs sometimes as many as 5. Any math wizard willing to graph Small Artillery? EDIT: Oh, and Tux, thanks for listening.
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:49:00 - [46] Originally by: Exiled One OWNED tbh. With max skills, 1 TC II 2 TE II (on both ships) the 425 II mega w/ spike has tracking of 0.006136, while the geddon w/ Tachyon II has 0.006454. The BONUS only just about brings it on par with Tach II, but then you get instant reloads and much higher alpha strike. The megathron and the armageddon are possibly the two most balanced ships in the game - factor in the damage types of the megathron and the geddon and a "standard" tank, and they do almost exactly the same damage. The megathron gets slightly higher optimal & falloff, while the geddon gets better tracking, ROF and alpha. The apoc is balanced in its own way by its higher alpha from the extra turret and improved cap, so stop whining
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:52:00 - [47] so are we going to get a capacitor increase or a cap use decrease on hybrids/lasers to go along with the increased length of fights? what about cap booster size?
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:52:00 - [48] we could use some graphs with the short range and long range ammo types. and especially the redicolous TII sniping ammo. Then there is the factor of what setup ships comes with. Anyways With my experience I`ve ended up with the conclution that the tempest with artilleries are the best to use in the mid range 50km to 150km. Rails are best to use at 150km and above and with the tracking amarr is the best to use at shorter ranges below 50km. when it comes to pulses and blasters and autocannons I havent looked very deep into it but their not usable in fleet battles so they should be balanced seperatly from the long range guns. Allso note that we dont want DPS on the tempest we want alpha and the mid range as we want to ustilise the minmatar agilitie and speed for hit and run. And in my opinion rails should be the snipers and Lasers should have the raw dps. What about even longer rof on the artillery and greater damage? Allthough yes could use a bit more dps but dont exaggerate. What I`m trying to say is that WE should maintain diversity in this game. If we dont there isnt much point in 3 weapon types.. we could simply let everyone use lasers and dont bother more with it. Remeber Balancing isnt the same as making things look alike.
Anaris Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:53:00 - [49] As an artillery user myself i'm hapy with this solution... And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... I fly all races ships And to the guy making a point about a thron and pest sniping at each other solo... Get a grip mate, pvp doesnt turn out like that ======= Too stig for a real sig...
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:53:00 - [50] I don't like where this is going.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:58:00 - [51] I'd like to say thanks to Tux for actually explaining his thoughts on the subject and not posting a one line "i'm doing this". It leaves a lot less questions for people to guess and complain about. To the Amarr whines at the top, he's said he's looking at it, insulting him won't get it done quicker, it just makes you look immature and pathetic. Time doesn't grow on trees, although i'd wish Tux didn't waste his time on HP boost instead of doing other things... ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:59:00 - [52] Edited by: Kerdrak on 23/10/2006 12:58:50 Originally by: Anaris As an artillery user myself i'm hapy with this solution... And the people complaining about the cap... come on guys, im in big ass fleet fights all the time, when was the last time you sat still for 2 - 3 minutes pounding away ?? People running missions, making 1vs1 pvp, npcing does EXISTS ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:00:00 - [53] Originally by: Anaris Usually takes 30 seconds or so for one side to realise it doesnt have the upper hand a start to warp out, so im sorry but artillery having no cap is really no big an advantage since you don't have an opportunity to use that cap trust me... I fly all races ships I didn't see you in 9CG back in april / may (Cos you weren't a bob member back then) We had some fights then where just about everyone amarr / gallente were totally out of cap and the only things still fighting were tempests and support. 30 seconds isn't very long when you have 30-40 second module activation / lock time and you're fighting 100+ vs 100+. It's definately an advantage, even if it does only mean you have more cap to rep up with when your get primaried and warp out I'm surprised though... no-one yet has used the "amarr" argument about damage types to show that infact, with a pretty standard-ish set of base sniper resists the tempest does similar, if not more, dps with only 6 turrets than the mega, apoc, or geddon.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:03:00 - [54] Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Old Geeza Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. OK, now add the 25% bonus to damage to ALL your 7 railguns with BS lvl 5 skill and the 37,5% to tracking. OWNED tbh. Too bad that the graphs already included +25% damage to the railguns. As it stands, with maxed skills Megathron with 7 425mm T2s and spike ammo does 3.4% (that is three point four percent, yes) more damage than Tempest with six 1400mm T2s and tremor ammo. With long-range T1 ammo, it's left in the dust as is. For this whole THREE-POINT-FOUR PERCENT DPS advantage, it pays at least 23 cap/sec, more if it fits damage mods. Thirty cap/sec is not peanuts - that's more than what gets drained by three heavy nosferati. Of course, with the current prevalence of armor tanking in fleet fights, the artillery damage types improve their effective damage by at least 10% compared to rails. So, to recap: with the potential arty boost, Tempest will do more damage, with better damage type, can switch that damage type if needed, AND has 25 more cap/second to play with compared to Mega. Sounds really good. -- NMTZ forum
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:04:00 - [55] Edited by: Old Geeza on 23/10/2006 13:04:48 Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: Kerdrak Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Testy Mctest TACHYONS ARE NOT COMPARABLE TO NORMAL BS WEAPONS Thanks. Bull****. That graph Tux posted shows anything but what you're trying to claim. Now multiply the rail DPS by 7, and the tach dps by 8 and you begin to see it. Those graphs are PER TURRET, not PER SHIP. OK, now add the 25% bonus to damage to ALL your 7 railguns with BS lvl 5 skill and the 37,5% to tracking. OWNED tbh. Oh look, the graphs already have the 25% damage to rails added. The green line is a rail on a Megathron (+25% damage), while the blue line is a rail on the Rokh (+50% optimal). If you're going to start an argument, try checking the facts first. OWNED tbh. Edit: lol I was beaten _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Anaris Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:06:00 - [56] You could ask yourself if this is an alt ? And come on, dont pull the pve crap out the bag, they're all in ravens matey. I would however say that boosting capacitors is something that could do with looking at. And yes i was in 9cg... and really that was something extraordinary, a 1 in a million with fleet fights so quit your whining. Besides you have no ammo to worry about which is also useful in it's own context. For example removing ascn pos when there's no dreads available, who better to use than a laser boat... every race has its advantages you cant just pull off very rare examples to make a 'balancing' point. ======= Too stig for a real sig...
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:06:00 - [57] I used Apoc, Tempest and Mega for sniping the old non-deadspace missions. That was a lot of shooting, and Cap was never an issue except occasionally on the Apoc due to my poor skills. The Mega outperformed the others by quite a bit, the Tempest suffered from bad DPS, optimal and tracking, while the Apoc suffered from generally high NPC EM resists. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:07:00 - [58] Originally by: GO MaZ I'm surprised though... no-one yet has used the "amarr" argument about damage types to show that infact, with a pretty standard-ish set of base sniper resists the tempest does similar, if not more, dps with only 6 turrets than the mega, apoc, or geddon. Dammit, missed by three minutes. -- NMTZ forum
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:08:00 - [59] Tech2 ammo is used up, you know? It's great being Amarr, aint it?
LexMKII	Posted - 2006.10.23 13:16:00 - [60] this is a good start, but it needs a 7% damage increase and a reduction in Projectile ammo size. keep working on it, at least you admit the problem exists now.

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