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Hitpoint boost and artilleries

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:57:00 - [1] Lets start this by taking a look at this image. There are number of things that are odd about it. Turrets have bonuses applied, like range and damage for 425mm, rate of fire for artilliers and nothing for Amarr I'm comparing these guns by using lead for rails, standard for lasers and depleted uranium for artilleries There is a 5% damage bonus on Tachyon because the data I'm using is old and is pre Tach boost . With longer fights you need more ammo. I'm taking a look at that now. Whether its fair to compare these guns with this ammo fitted is debatable. Perhaps its best to make the different types of ammo the same, that is emp doing the same damage as antimatter and multifrequency but that requires to take a closer look at autocannons. First of why am I using these ammo types because there is a discrepancy in tech 1 ammo. Emp does less damage than antimatter and multifrequency. On the other hand the longest range projectile ammo does more damage then longest range hybrid and laser ammo. Tech 2 ammo on the other hand does the same damage. In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright but keep in mind that is factoring in the Gallente damage bonus and it never gets two of those. On the other hand some Amarr ships do get a rate of fire bonus sometime and Minmatar does get damage bonus as well as rate of fire bonus sometimes (although the only battleship - Tempest - only has 6 turrets). Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. In all other aspects its ranks low, except in alpha damage which usefulness has been somewhat diminished. So it needs a boost but how much? Lets take a look at an image with a modes 5% boost to artilleries. I also made pictures of damage over the first 60 seconds and first 120 seconds _______________

Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 11:58:00 - [2] First. HP Boost and Amarr...WHERE????? Pathetic. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Taipan Gedscho Taipan Industries	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:01:00 - [3] so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again?
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again? Looks like post patch will be: caldari > gallente > minmatar > mailman > amarr. Once again good job. Originally by: Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. NGE act 2.
AsfALT	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:04:00 - [5] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again? With a 5% boost to dmg on a 50% in hp the alpha won't have the same effect as before, it will just bring the dps of artys more on par with the other long range turrets
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:06:00 - [6] Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. http://eve.klaki.net/
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:08:00 - [7] What Tyrrax said. Frankly im not even too bothered about the boost, except id like the RoF of Arties to be lowered to cover the DPS boost. Saying that no cap usage isnt that much of an advantage though... Im beginning to wonder if you were indeed sarcastic in the Dev Chat. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. Once again, the community is ignore, at least 25% of it. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Swamp Ziro EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:09:00 - [9] Wee =) Tux wants to adress the problem =D Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive, and when your turn comes, we'll try to do that too. If you want to make jabs, make them at gallente or something, okay?
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Elve Sorrow What Tyrrax said. Frankly im not even too bothered about the boost, except id like the RoF of Arties to be lowered to cover the DPS boost. Saying that no cap usage isnt that much of an advantage though... Im beginning to wonder if you were indeed sarcastic in the Dev Chat. Sad, but true. All this really going downhill and will have a lot of negative feedback if you do not turn. Originally by: Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. NGE act 2.

Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:10:00 - [11] zomg arti boost \o/ _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Wee =) Tux wants to adress the problem =D Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive, and when your turn comes, we'll try to do that too. If you want to make jabs, make them at gallente or something, okay? Constructive, or not. He simple doesn't give a s..damn. I still can't believe this. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
AsfALT	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:11:00 - [13] Edited by: AsfALT on 23/10/2006 12:11:40 The "no cap" is good for autos but kind of useless for artys cose if u fit largest artys u can't fit any cap consuming tank, so u have lots of cap and nothing to do with it... I think that's tuxford's point.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:12:00 - [14] Edited by: Old Geeza on 23/10/2006 12:14:01 Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: Swamp Ziro Wee =) Tux wants to adress the problem =D Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive, and when your turn comes, we'll try to do that too. If you want to make jabs, make them at gallente or something, okay? Constructive, or not. He simple doesn't give a s..damn. I still can't believe this. OMG HE POSTED ABOUT MINMATAR INSTEAD OF AMARR DISPITE HIM ALREADY SAYING HE'S LOOKING AT AMARR. TUXFORD FOR THE LOOOOOSEEEE!!!! Grow up and wait. Edit: And regarding the cap issue - it's not much of a bonus FOR MINMATAR, not in general. Having your guns use 3 cap every 10 seconds really isn't much different from having them use 0 cap every 10 seconds - the sensor boosters and tracking computers will drain more cap than that. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:13:00 - [15] Originally by: AsfALT The "no cap" is good for autos but kind of useless for artys cose if u fit largest artys u can't fit any cap consuming tank, so u have lots of cap and nothing to do with it... I think that's tuxford's point. No good for Arty? come back when you fly a megathron or a geddon in fleets and you run out of cap after firing for a couple of minutes
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:14:00 - [16] 5% damage boost will certainly help a bit to bring arties closer to being in line with 425mms and missiles. Lasers will lag behind because of omni-tanks (I personally believe the best solution is making the resist compensation skills useful for active hardeners to give people more of an incentive to fit them). Now, let's talk ammo sizes, cargo space, booster charges and of course cap management. With a general hp increase, these will all need to be looked at. Otherwise, autocannons, blasters and lasers will run into even more issues. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:14:00 - [17] I'm not 100% sure what your graphs are showing/against, but from ours, the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Given that your graphs are probably more accurate than ours, I'd think the 5% damage boost you've mentioned would be a good start, if nothing else. Looking at ammo sizes also would possibly make us very happy, as well as alleviating some of the problems we're abotu to have with autocannon ammo consumption. 33% ammo size decrease would seem appropriate as it would allow us to carry 150% more ammo than we do now, as well as cut down on our DPS issues caused by reloading. If your graphs are correct, it also would seem clear that Amarr need a DPS boost, although I really can't see why they appear to be so much worse than other guns. I've yet to see solid mathematics to prove what that graph seems to show. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:15:00 - [18] Originally by: GO MaZ Originally by: AsfALT The "no cap" is good for autos but kind of useless for artys cose if u fit largest artys u can't fit any cap consuming tank, so u have lots of cap and nothing to do with it... I think that's tuxford's point. No good for Arty? come back when you fly a megathron or a geddon in fleets and you run out of cap after firing for a couple of minutes Fit a cap recharger on the megathron? You've already got the biggest optimal range, so drop a tracking computer and fit something to keep your cap going. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
AsfALT	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:16:00 - [19] Regarding the increased capcity of clips and rof, a larger clip not only increases the dps but also gives a more uniform dps. If the clip and rof are very small, if u are unlucky a few times u do crap dmg before reloading. So maybe a smaller boost to dmg and a snall increase in rof for artys. Something like 3% dmg and 3% rof.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:16:00 - [20] Are you comparing the guns (with appropriate ship bonuses applied) to each other (i.e. comparing a 1400mm howi to a 425mm rail) or comparing the ships with the guns fitted (i.e. comparing a tempest w/ 1400mm to a megathron with 425mm)? I ask becuase just comparing the guns the 1400mm looks better than it actually is when fitted on a tempest due to the tempest only have 6 turrets.

Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:17:00 - [21] Btw don't forget that looking at those graphs, it's only for one turret. Amarr get 7-8 turrets (7 + rof bonus, or 8 + no bonus), Megathron gets 7, Rokh gets 8, Tempest gets 6 (+ damage) and the Maelstrom gets 8. Tuxford, could you please do us a new graph showing the turrets on the ships? _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Old Geeza Edit: And regarding the cap issue - it's not much of a bonus FOR MINMATAR, not in general. Having your guns use 3 cap every 10 seconds really isn't much different from having them use 0 cap every 10 seconds - the sensor boosters and tracking computers will drain more cap than that. the difference is you could be nossed to the point of not being able to fire your guns if your guns took 3 cap every 10s, with no cap use at all you cannot be nossed to the point of turning off your guns
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Old Geeza Btw don't forget that looking at those graphs, it's only for one turret. I knew there was something amiss in there. 7% probably is more the number to aim for, then, possibly even a little bit more. Also, i retract my acceptance that Amarr need boosting again :P Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive, and when your turn comes, we'll try to do that too. If you want to make jabs, make them at gallente or something, okay? Flying amarr and being unable to see the bigger picture aren't mutually exclusive (see my above post, keeping in mind that the only thing I can fly besides amarr are gallente frigs). Besides, we sorta owe the minnies a bit of support I think, as payback for the Khanid MK2 thread. Unban Sarmaul <3 ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. ARTILLERIES!!!!! Its a pretty nice advantage for autocannons though. _______________

Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 23/10/2006 12:06:41 "Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless." Not that great an advantage ?? I guess Vagabond with passive shield tank and guns that don't use cap isn't all that great either. No cap use is better the longer the fights go on, so minmatar are already being boosted, and here I was already using autocannons on my malediction setups Lame that capacitor which is supposedly one of Amarr's strengths is their greatest weakness. When was the last time you saw a vagabond with artillary? He is not boosting autocannons (with the expection that he is looking at ammo size too that will be a small secondary buff to ACs).
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:19:00 - [27] Righto, contstructive: I agree with the damage boost, to cover the Alpha strike loss of the Arties. Now... Does this apply to all Arties, just the 1400mm, just the large ones? (And what about XL?) Are you considering to lower the RoF of arties to make up for their increased DPS? Because, not alot of the Minmatar crowd minded the low DPS. They accepted it as one of the disadvantages. Regarding the cap, i am frankly stunned, but i will attempt to explain why i feel this IS a major advantage. I agree that the lack of cap usage doesnt seem much of an advantage when you look at it from the tank perspective. On the other hand, look at it from the Amarr/Gallente perspective. We run out of cap. And this is exactly where the advantage lies. For our firing to be constant, we have to fit 1-2 Cap Relays, which gives the Minnies 1-2 extra slots to fit Damage Mods/Tracking stuff, or whatever they fancy really. It's great being Amarr, aint it?

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Testy Mctest I'm not 100% sure what your graphs are showing/against, but from ours, the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Given that your graphs are probably more accurate than ours, I'd think the 5% damage boost you've mentioned would be a good start, if nothing else. Looking at ammo sizes also would possibly make us very happy, as well as alleviating some of the problems we're abotu to have with autocannon ammo consumption. 33% ammo size decrease would seem appropriate as it would allow us to carry 150% more ammo than we do now, as well as cut down on our DPS issues caused by reloading. If your graphs are correct, it also would seem clear that Amarr need a DPS boost, although I really can't see why they appear to be so much worse than other guns. I've yet to see solid mathematics to prove what that graph seems to show. Where do you get your graphs from? Are you comparing with shortest range t1 ammo because the graph does not look as errm nice with that. There is the slight possibility that my program might be off. I'll have a talk with my guy when he wakes up. _______________

GO MaZ No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Old Geeza Fit a cap recharger on the megathron? You've already got the biggest optimal range, so drop a tracking computer and fit something to keep your cap going. Proving my point. It's a pretty damn good bonus when you dont have to sacrifice mids or lows to keep shooting. While fitting cap mods on a megathron is possible (although nasty, I like my standard midslot setup), it's not an option on the geddon because you need 2 sensor boosters to lock at your optimal and the TC II just to compete with other snipers
Kerdrak Amarr 3B Legio IX Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.23 12:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Tuxford Artilleries have the advantage of not using cap but imo that is not really that great advantage but an advantage nonetheless. Ok, try to use an apoc (the amarr tier 2 battleship ) with lasers and then fit projectile guns on it. ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE



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