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Hitpoint boost and artilleries

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:22:00 - [181] I must confess that I've skipped over most of this thread, but do Tuxford's figures take into account the fact that everyone has insane EM resistances? Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Yamaeda	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:26:00 - [182] Originally by: Too Kind It looks like the dps at opti-range + falloff is at 50% of the maximum dps. That can't be true as I understand it, because the max-damage has already fallen to 50% at this point, but there is another chance-to hit penalty of 50%, so the dps suffers a double penalty and must be worse than 50% at opti-range plus falloff ( probably down to around 25% already and all dps curves should fall down faster. And that makes a difference, especially if you look at the blue curve and compare it to the red one and imagine, they'd fall faster. ^^) Or do I miss something ? Range doesn't affect hit-damage at all, if you hit, you hit for full damage. 1 Falloff incurs -50% hit chance, thus -50% dps. (there's some theories that it's actually lower due to lesser wreckings also, but even if true it's close enough) /Y
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:57:00 - [183] Actually range does affect damage. You get a LOT more well aimed and excellent hits within optimal than you get within falloff. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
haq aan	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:04:00 - [184] Originally by: d'Mortaigne Hurray! Another boost not related to Amarr! Hurray! this thread is not about a Boost! ..Its about a Fix.So please, i really hate to read ' but minnies got a %x bonus,..we want too '
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:11:00 - [185] Edited by: Sir JoJo on 24/10/2006 23:11:39 hell i dont even want more dammage, i just want a larger alpha strike.. so if some wanna do the math fine.. but id like to see artys do like 50% more dammage a shot and then increase the ROF to fit it. 50% might seem high i am nit sure. but whit 50% more hp all over it might be fine its a disgrace for Minmatar
Sight Unseen Amarr Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:11:00 - [186] Dont complain about amarr damage type, hopefully this fix will come in time. This is about DPS and how the turrets compare. Charts seem to be doing an effective job at this, but you have to factor in all the variables, and anyone can tell eve combat has a ton of variables. One issue I would also loved addressed is the amarr cap problem, I'm sure you devs are aware of it, but I just want to /sign fixing the fact that lasers eat too much cap even WITH a dedicated ship bonus to reducing it. --------------------------------------------- "Whats wrong little girl? Hard knock life?" "A roflcopter killed my entire family..." Oo!
Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:32:00 - [187] Originally by: Sight Unseen Dont complain about amarr damage type, hopefully this fix will come in time. SNIP We've been complaining for 6 months and there has still been no official word on any change, apart from a vague mention in the dev chat. Whereas this thread has come a few days after the HP boost post. You'd wonder why those who fly amarr are complaining really........
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2006.10.25 05:43:00 - [188] I have also skipped through this thread, but I'd like to adress the no cap thing. Apologies if this has already been mentioned. With Minmatar ships, they are naturally the weakest HP wise of any race, with the smallest cap (because even before the boost of no cap, T1 and T2 projectiles used 1 cap to fire). We also tend to have a more even spread of med and low slots, meaning that the Gallente and Amarr have more low slots to fit their cap mods into, and still maintain a half decent tank. Where as with a Minmatar ship, to fit damage, tank and cap mods into lows would be impossible. You'd only get 2 of the 3. The only ship we have with 7 lows is the 'phoon, and that has some issues, and isn't a long range sniper anyway, otherwise it's the 'pest with 6 lows. For me 6 lows is enough to mount a decent omni tank and nothing else. With comp skills and T2 armour hardners, I can probably drop that to 5 slots for an omni tanbk that wouldn't be quite as good over all the resists. This leaves ships like the 'geddon, apoc', and sniperthron 3 / 2 / 2 slots respectiveley for cap / damage mods. Are we still overpowered in that area? (I'm not actually sure myself, so I'm wearng my asbestos undies ) Akkarin Linkage <3 - Immy
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.25 06:57:00 - [189] Originally by: **c Originally by:** Sight Unseen Dont complain about amarr damage type, hopefully this fix will come in time. SNIP We've been complaining for 6 months and there has still been no official word on any change, apart from a vague mention in the dev chat. Whereas this thread has come a few days after the HP boost post. You'd wonder why those who fly amarr are complaining really........ selective memory ftw, we already complained a year ago in RMR that minni alpha strike got nerfed with the hp boost back then + introduction of damage control and they did nothing to compensate back then because they didnt feel the need that an answer came relatively fast shows that they were themselves already aware of this possible problem and had already talked about it dont ever think that the complaints caused the introduction of this possible! (its not like its set in stone already >_>) this boost in the span of a few days, it only hastened the release of their planed changes/tweaks to arty. Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Dupac Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:20:00 - [190] Selective memory? Don't think so - I've no problem with the boost to artillery and think it's a good thing, after all I'm training projectiles :) I was responding to the quoted comments, selective reading ftw.
Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.25 12:45:00 - [191] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive Constructive is thinking that the artillery boost will come in useful for the Abaddon... - It's great flying Amarr, aint it?
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.25 13:02:00 - [192] Originally by: Lucre Originally by: Swamp Ziro Also, to amarr people. Yes, I realize that you also have problems, but trying to kill this thread doesn't help you in any way, and minmatar also have problems. So if you please, try to make this constructive Constructive is thinking that the artillery boost will come in useful for the Abaddon... Excellent then us who trained projectiles for amarr back in 03 might have use for it again :D
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.25 21:19:00 - [193] Originally by: Rodj Blake I must confess that I've skipped over most of this thread, but do Tuxford's figures take into account the fact that everyone has insane EM resistances? No, he's not aware, because his guns do thermal and kinetic damage (shields 20/40; armour 35/20). Hmm. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 00:58:00 - [194] omg amarr peeps, way to smear a stickied thread because it doesn't have to do w/ you back to the topic at hand..... Its sweet this is will be proactively adjusted w/ the HP boost. Give it to me straight Doc, will either the Tempest or the Maelstrom be able to out snipe a Rokh? I mean, why dont we give caldari a nice blaster/drone/armor tanking boat next?
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:29:00 - [195] Originally by: d'Mortaigne Hurray! Another boost not related to Amarr! Hurray! lier, boost to arty = boost to amarr It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Nicose Caldari Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:55:00 - [196] Whine, whine whine whine, whine...............whine if a patch screws your already uber setup make another one you uncreative bastards! like......and oh yes im bringing this one up......the missile nerf.....suddenly torps = poo against all things non BS so ppl adjusted their setups and fitted other things instead and IMO the raven still rocks.......whine whine whine whine whine. pussies.
Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:21:00 - [197] Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon Originally by: Lucre Constructive is thinking that the artillery boost will come in useful for the Abaddon... Excellent then us who trained projectiles for amarr back in 03 might have use for it again :D I used to run with 4 x 425 rail and 4 x dual heavy beam on my Apoc... The irony looking at the Abaddon now is of course that that was before CCP realised that Amarr ships just didn't work with a 5%/level laser cap bonus and so gave them all 10%/level instead... - It's great flying Amarr, aint it?
hereward rowland Macrocosm Advanced Industries	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:12:00 - [198] yay at least we are getting some well needed attention... now if they could only nerf missles id be happy
Bruno Vespa	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:01:00 - [199] 7.5% more damage and 15% more tracking for artys. They will still sux, but less.
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 08:15:00 - [200] with all this so called 'ballancing' why not just make one ship with a 8/8/8 setup and then.. no wait! we could all fly polaris frigs and carebear away! Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida. My sig is blue not pink although i can't argue with the slave part - Xorus wth whats this blue stuff all of a sudden? Did I miss a mail? -eris Bwahahahaha!11 Immy was here
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:13:00 - [201] Originally by: Bruno Vespa 7.5% more damage and 15% more tracking for artys. They will still sux, but less. ... if artys would still suck after that, what would rails do, given that on ships meant to be arty platforms (Rupture, Tempest, Muninn, Hurricane, Sleipnir) arties would - outdamage the rails - outtrack the rails (except on BS level) - be still able to use variable damage types - still use no cap? There is no ship that gives a bonus to small arties' RoF, so that might be looked at, but on the other hand, zero cap use is a pretty big deal on frigs. And of course, Rifter is a brilliant ship as is and Jaguar/Wolf get double damage bonus. -- NMTZ forum
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:26:00 - [202] for sure 7.5% and 15% is too much. 5% damage and halve ammo size would already be very good. Maybe a slight reduction on rate of fire with a slighty higher damage bonus to rpeserve AS. But no more tan thta.. afterall which self respectful Minmatar would welcome the idea of being on the easy mode? I don't
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:50:00 - [203] Originally by: Epsilon 1 Originally by: Taipan Gedscho so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again? Looks like post patch will be: caldari > gallente > minmatar > mailman > amarr. Once again good job. I dispise people like you, always biased everywhere. Euro 0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment
Imhotep Khem Vortex.	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:13:00 - [204] Are we boosting NPC HP as well? If you fight an enemy that has autocannons you can already forget it because he WILL close on you before you kill him, if your in anything bigger than a frigate, and sometimes even in a frigate. So the HP boost will make autocannon setups dominate artillery setups. Anyway, you can't hold the enemy in place while using artillery because of the 20km disrupt range, and if you start out at or close than 20km, you will be closed on so fast its not even funny... ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:45:00 - [205] Edited by: Lazy8s on 27/10/2006 16:48:50 I'm currently a caldari pilot and everyone I run with flies caldari/gallente or minnie. The boost will be nice to bring projectiles in line with the other guns. That being said, the first thing I though when I saw that was basically that chart shows that lasers do the same damage but have a huge penalty (large cap use). Sure laser boats have another gun but that means they just run dry faster. I know amarr don't have ammo (only with T1 of course) but if you packed your cargo with projectile/hybrid ammo how long could you fire compared to an amarr boat before amarr ran "out of ammo". Also, if you run out of ammo you can still do stuff. Add in the fact that most people armor tank and you basically just proved that Amarr are gimped in PvP...imho amarr should be the biggest DPS because they pay the biggest price for doing it. I am not an amarr whiner and I don't want to derail the thread but that was the first thing I saw. The second thing I saw was that mega beams are supposed to be Amarr's guns that are "comparable" to everyone else's and tachs are supposed to be "a cut above the rest" as I understood it but basically with the boost to projectiles amarr will have to use Tachs just to be comparable which doesn't make any sense to me. Why even have megas then? To all the minnie people complaining about the amarr people whining in the thread get real. When he posts charts comparing ALL guns you can't expect the other races not to chime in if it brings up blatant discrepencies. Anyways, woohoo projectiles! I think minmatar deserves this.
Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:16:00 - [206] Boosting all ship Hp is a bad bad bad idea, i cant see the logic in it one bit. I seriously hope you U-turn on this its not going to do the game any favours. --- Lodhi ftg
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:17:00 - [207] Originally by: Kaeten Originally by: Epsilon 1 Originally by: Taipan Gedscho so if the arties can alpha like before, what was the sense of the hp boost again? Looks like post patch will be: caldari > gallente > minmatar > mailman > amarr. Once again good job. I dispise people like you, always biased everywhere. It's not my bloody problem you're spec in one race and know jack ** about minmatar and amarr. Have you been sleeping under a rock for the past 18 months? Invest a few years into both races, then we'll talk. Originally by:** Tuxford Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums. NGE act 2.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:35:00 - [208] Its the second time I read this post now, and some things come to mind... 1) Why are we discussing boost to dps, when the real problem is the alpha strike? Or do we want to move away from alpha strikes and make artillery more like railguns? 2) I think Tuxfords idea of making the different race ammo types do the same amount damage is a good idea. Easier comparisons ftw. And I welcome a closer look at autocannons, at least large ones. 3) Using no cap for weapons isnt a big advantage, specially since minmatar ships have smaller capacitators than the others. The advantage shows when both a gallente ship and a minmatar ship is totally out of cap though, since the minmatar one keeps firing. But that usually doesnt happen in close combat thanks to cap injectors. 4) Minmatar is kind of special since their damage type is changeable in theory, but hardly ever in practice because of range limitations. If you want to snipe, you have to use Tremor. No other ammo gets even close to +100% range. The advantage shows itself with autocannons though, where you can use EMP or Phased Plasma against shield tanks (EMP/thermal damage), and Fusion or Quake against armor tanks (mostly explosive damage). 5) Consider using Naughty Boy's excel spreadsheet. Looks like its light years ahead of what you are using now, but I could be wrong of course. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Too Kind	Posted - 2006.10.28 15:52:00 - [209] Edited by: Too Kind on 28/10/2006 16:01:24 Originally by: Yamaeda Originally by: Too Kind It looks like the dps at opti-range + falloff is at 50% of the maximum dps. That can't be true as I understand it, because the max-damage has already fallen to 50% at this point, but there is another chance-to hit penalty of 50%, so the dps suffers a double penalty and must be worse than 50% at opti-range plus falloff ( probably down to around 25% already and all dps curves should fall down faster. And that makes a difference, especially if you look at the blue curve and compare it to the red one and imagine, they'd fall faster. ^^) Or do I miss something ? Range doesn't affect hit-damage at all, if you hit, you hit for full damage. 1 Falloff incurs -50% hit chance, thus -50% dps. (there's some theories that it's actually lower due to lesser wreckings also, but even if true it's close enough) /Y I was quite sure that once I got something like a 70.x hit wrecking hit (!) with 1400mm once on something that was far out of my sniper range. Maybe it was a bug or uber resistances. A wrecking hit within opti-range means usually around 1500 for me with Tremor L, that was at least a wrecking today on a cruiser at 160km. So if the max-damage stays the same, then a wrecking hit at 230km should also be that high, even if my opti-range is just 170km, only the chance for a wrecking go down as the chance for 'well aimed' etc. Need to check it once I find an unarmed pos tower again that allows some extensive testing. ( or just anchor one myself ) -------------------------- Post with your main !!!111
Sal Alo	Posted - 2006.10.29 17:14:00 - [210] The only reason for using artilleries is: alpha strike. I think we all agree with this first sentence. Now let's start fighting If our friend Tuxford thinks artilleries need some improvments on the damage side, he can add 5% more damage and it appears a right decision by me if u keep all the ships hitpoints at the current level. Talking about artilleries, what the hell are you improving if you add 5% damage on artilleries and boost up ships' hitpoints by 25-50% I don't know, but you are not boosting the only reason for using artilleries, for sure: alpha strike. Here's my proposal if we want to keep artilleries like now (=alpha strike) Raise up damage by X% according with the ships' hitpoints boosting Raise up reloading time by the same X%. After that, artilleries have the same alpha strike but updated for the new ships. Now you can add the new improvments, like more 5% damage.

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