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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:49:00 - [91] To be honest, I don't think many Minmatar pilots care about artillery DPS so long as the alpha strike makes up for it. I had always considered artillery to be the "opening act" of a fleet fight, where they try and anihilate as much as they can before the rest of the ships get to work. Unfortunately, the fact that there is no T2 EM/thermal ammo for any projectile means most of their damage is lost on 60% shield resistances :'( _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:55:00 - [92] Originally by: ElCoCo No I realy don't like where you whiners are taking this game. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely equal to race's Y ship in circumstance Z. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely more usefull to race's Y ships in most if not all circumstance. Its not about equality really, ITs about making more races and play styles usefull. If the 1400mm's do lower DPS over time, that fine by me, give us another use over the other ships... __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:07:00 - [93] what would be nice is to see artys to get a 25% higher dammage, and then a Lower ROF so the dps is about the lvl it is today but we then will have the alpha strike and its been a part of the game forever lets keep it, its a disgrace for Minmatar
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: dalman Why does your graph has the megathron +25% bonus but not the tempest +25% bonus in it??? It's stupid at best. Remake the graph with the +25% arty bonus from tempest. He's taking standard ship bonuses into account. Howitzers are nearly guaranteed to be fit on ships with 5% rate of fire, while all Gallente ships have 5% damage bonus. However, a 1400mm is not guaranteed to be fit on a Tempest. Oh, and his graph is per turret, not per ship. (Assumption: you are commenting Tuxford's OP) That's ***** **** tbh. A 1400 will be fit on either: tempest - 6 guns with 25% damage and ROF bonus or Maelstrom - 8 guns and 25% ROF bonus. A 425 fitted on a either: megahtron - 7 guns with 25% damage bonus or Rokh - 8 guns no damage bonus. With current** stats, the DPS output for these ships are in order: 1. Maelstrom 2. Megathron 3. Tempest 4. Rokh The DPS difference between Megathron and Tempest is 3%. Quite amazing how you can whine so much for so little. Yes, that's without reload time. But then the arties don't use cap. And that megathron needs to carry thousands of ammo-rounds. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Mr Bright untaught THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:26:00 - [95] I got several observations from the laid out data and suggested 5% increase. It seems to me that the balancing for the artillery is more directed towards the new Maelstrom than the Tempest. That could be a very easy explanation for the single gun comparison, since every new Tier3 can actually fit 8 guns. If that is indeed the case, then it does look about right with all guns DOS wise after the 5% boost. BUT, the problem hides in the unsaid. If the graph is versus stationary targets - artillery will seem better than it would be in an actual fight. I wonder if this is something that was forgotten when the diagrams was calculated. Now Artillery will get 5% increase in damage mod - but HP's will increase by 50%. Seems to me this is still a significant boost to defences compared to a minor helping hand for weapons build for alpha strikes capability. Since artillery have one area its king (namely alpha strike) and is inferior in just about every other stat (tracking, optimal, DPS), it would seem a 5% Damage boost is a scrap cast of quell the growling mut at the feet. On an added note, its worth mentioning that the new Tier3 BS for minmatar seems more to me like an attempt to lower the gap between BS 3, 4 and 5 pilots. Since the alpha strike of the Tier 3 BS will be the same regardless of level. This actually makes it easier to spot low skilled pilots in fleet ops. The high skilled will be in Tempests, since here they are faster, more agile and much cheaper to field/equip while performing as well or better than the new Maelstrom. So in essens while other races get ship for a new role, the minmatar gets a ship to help the new players along till they can gradutate into a Tempest
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:32:00 - [96] Originally by: Testy Mctest the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Hypocracy 4tw eh? How many hours has it been since you said the problem was tracking, not DPS? Make up your mind. Are you screaming for a damage boost (thereby saying that tracking wasn't actually an issue and hence that you don't need the damage boost in the first place), or what are you actually saying? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:33:00 - [97] Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: ElCoCo No I realy don't like where you whiners are taking this game. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely equal to race's Y ship in circumstance Z. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely more usefull to race's Y ships in most if not all circumstance. Its not about equality really, ITs about making more races and play styles usefull. If the 1400mm's do lower DPS over time, that fine by me, give us another use over the other ships... So let's say they all do same DPS over time like most ppl seem to want. How would you balance the no-cap issue on minmatar ships compared to amarr? And then again amarr guns don't use that much more cap compared to railguns to offset the no-ammo issue. (and don't tell me crystals run out cause they last pretty damn much) This isn't a pro-gallente post... I fly every race BS and so far I appreciate immensely the diversity of using diifferent ships on occasions.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:49:00 - [98] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Hypocracy 4tw eh? Since I made a recent commitment not to get angry and rant anymore, I wont respond in kind to the jab. However, the problem is DPS. I showed you and others DPS graphs to prove that our DPS was lower. I also pointed out that in addition to that fact, our tracking was an issue as well, which affects our DPS. In the same way falloff is an issue that also affects our DPS. However, tracking and falloff being issues are two things that differentiate Artillery from Rails or Beams. While I wouldnt argue with some changes in tracking, and would actually be happy to have us more falloff based, I think for the sake of interestingness (look ma, I invented a word!) I'd rather have them different enough to other weapons to still be, well, different. At the end of the day, though, all the difference in the world is no good if you still hit about as hard as a piece of wet paper. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:51:00 - [99] Megathron out-ranges, out-tracks, and out-damages a tempest. Alpha strike is the only thing going for artillery at the moment.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.23 16:59:00 - [100] Edited by: dalman on 23/10/2006 17:00:09 Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: dalman Originally by: Testy Mctest the numbers we came out with were that artillery needed roughly a 7% boost for us to be happy. Hypocracy 4tw eh? Since I made a recent commitment not to get angry and rant anymore, I wont respond in kind to the jab. However, the problem is DPS. I showed you and others DPS graphs to prove that our DPS was lower. I also pointed out that in addition to that fact, our tracking was an issue as well, which affects our DPS. In the same way falloff is an issue that also affects our DPS. sigh You completely refused to use a graph with zero transversal, because the "optimal conditions" DPS difference is 3%. Instead you threw in a graph with a 'ridiculous' 200 m/s transversal and no tracking computers fitted - showing your damage lacking because of tracking. At this point I managed to get you to do a graph with tracking computers fitted, but you would not lower the unrealistic transversal. Which made your artilleries still have some minor tracking issues making the dps difference ~10%. So: * Either tracking is not an issue, and then you're not in need of any DPS increase. * Or you want a tracking increase. And post with your main :/ Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:00:00 - [101] Its easy. Just give minmatar such insane alpha strike that it keeps its DPS in longer engagements, but it literally takes 20 seconds between shots. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Joe Gurista	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:03:00 - [102] what about your two remaining high slots? You can put 2 CM or siege launcher in there and increase your damage output way beyond that of a Mega after 10/20 seconds or even less.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:20:00 - [103] I think the the point you amarr whiners are missing when Tux said the lack of cap wasn't that great an advantage for artillery is that before it used very little cap. Then the "buff" to artillery was removing all the cap use from it. Before it was using something like 3 cap, so 3 cap with the slow rof wasn't exactly hurting our capacitor. So the "buff" to artillery did jack and he's saying that this fact plus the upcoming nerf to alpha strike means artillery needs some help. And god forbid some other issues get looked at, you know you amarr aren't the only ones with problems and until tux says ** off to you lot stop screaming that the sky is falling In rust we trust!!!**
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:22:00 - [104] Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Pesadel0 Why so bitter elve? 1) He joined Scrapheap Challenge and we rubbed off on him (not literally, of course) 2) He's Amarr and it's in the blood :P Nah, Elve is irate now becuase he trained Matari after the EAN problems with Amarr instead of training Caldari. Thank god Sarmauls Khanid MK2 concepts convinced me to train missiles and Caldari half a year ago. Otherwise I would likely be extremely irate as well. Actually, its because im emo. I read it on the forums. (j/k Tux :P) It's great being Amarr, aint it?
OrangeAfroMan Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Elve Sorrow What Tyrrax said. Frankly im not even too bothered about the boost, except id like the RoF of Arties to be lowered to cover the DPS boost. Saying that no cap usage isnt that much of an advantage though... Im beginning to wonder if you were indeed sarcastic in the Dev Chat. He said in relation to artillery. Also it doesnt matter if you have 100% cap, if your hp runs out due to LOWER DPS, you're dead anyway. Good work Tux, I'm glad you listened to the Minmatar when they said arties were going to be crap >.< Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
Sonho	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:33:00 - [106] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Its easy. Just give minmatar such insane alpha strike that it keeps its DPS in longer engagements, but it literally takes 20 seconds between shots. No thanks ....And that would make them what exactly ???Just a fleet gun? Wait a minute ... Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Pesadel0 Why so bitter elve? 1) He joined Scrapheap Challenge and we rubbed off on him (not literally, of course) 2) He's Amarr and it's in the blood :P Nah, Elve is irate now becuase he trained Matari after the EAN problems with Amarr instead of training Caldari. Thank god Sarmauls Khanid MK2 concepts convinced me to train missiles and Caldari half a year ago. Otherwise I would likely be extremely irate as well. Actually, its because im emo. I read it on the forums. (j/k Tux :P) Tux is emo?
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:51:00 - [107] Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: ElCoCo No I realy don't like where you whiners are taking this game. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely equal to race's Y ship in circumstance Z. I don't see why race's X ship should be absolutely more usefull to race's Y ships in most if not all circumstance. Its not about equality really, ITs about making more races and play styles usefull. If the 1400mm's do lower DPS over time, that fine by me, give us another use over the other ships... So let's say they all do same DPS over time like most ppl seem to want. How would you balance the no-cap issue on minmatar ships compared to amarr? And then again amarr guns don't use that much more cap compared to railguns to offset the no-ammo issue. (and don't tell me crystals run out cause they last pretty damn much) This isn't a pro-gallente post... I fly every race BS and so far I appreciate immensely the diversity of using diifferent ships on occasions. You seem to missed the point of what you quoted... WE (AT LEAST I) DONT WANT EQUAL DPS, I DONT WANT A DPS BUFF, I WANT A ******* ROLE IN COMBAT. That role, used to be alphastrike, and now there is no arty role in combat, go back to the last page, read my letter to tux, it explains what the problem is. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:05:00 - [108] Originally by: Popsikle You seem to missed the point of what you quoted... WE (AT LEAST I) DONT WANT EQUAL DPS, I DONT WANT A DPS BUFF, I WANT A ******* ROLE IN COMBAT. That role, used to be alphastrike, and now there is no arty role in combat, go back to the last page, read my letter to tux, it explains what the problem is. You still have the highest alpha compared to all other ships so I don't know wtf you on about. The problem is that you're used to need one salvo from X ammount of tempests to instapop a BS and now with the HP buff you'll need 1&1/2? Oh and don't swear.
Diana Merris Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:13:00 - [109] Well, I see that the anti-projectile Tempest whiners are out in force already. To those people I'll just say (for the millionth billionth time) the Tempest is not the only Minmatar ship. To Tuxford: Thank you Tux for finally taking the the Tempest out of the equation.
biomass monkey	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:28:00 - [110] I suppose I just don't get it. The last time they increased the hitpoints, the artillery screamed their heads off. Now, I look at Minmatar, see just how effective they are in fleet combat and wonder exactly what the problem is. Tuxford is semi right-- I have rarely seen 1v1 tempests or typhoons fitted with artillery because 1v1 engagements almost always happen within scramble range where the effectiveness of artillery is drastically reduced-- that is to say, unless you're just whining about the reduced effect of solo gate sniping from 200km. Take a look at the average fleet battle. If 50 battleships fire on 1 battleship, it won't last more than 10 seconds. Now increase hitpoints by 50%, and maybe it will last 15 seconds. At best you only get 2 to 3 volleys off. DPS only matters when combat lasts incredibly long, and I somehow doubt that even with this 50% HP increase, that combat will last for any real noticeable length longer than it does now.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:33:00 - [111] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/10/2006 18:35:59 Ok, ive read the entire thread. Some points... 1) Nice to see some discussion with Tuxford over the issue, instead of just getting served a solution in 2 months that may or may not be the best one. By discussing problems in threads like these, a lot of people get to discuss it which should be good for game balance in the end. I think you should do this more often for the important topics. 2) Amarr people, this thread is about artillery. Please wait for the thread on EANM and Amarr. Im expecting one in the future, since Tux has said he will look into it. 3) Tuxford, chocking to see you didnt know about NB's spreadsheet, specially since we have been using it for years...(!). But better late than never. Its a very nice tool, and you can easily see the graphs for alpha strike, dps etc for all weapons. You can even configure the tank of your choice and see the dps decrease against it for different types of ammo. All graphs are with maxed skills. 4) Please have a look at Large Autocannons and see if you feel they are balanced compared to hybrids and lasers. I rarely see anyone complain about medium or small autocannons. Its on the battleship level they might need some love. 5) Have a look at both Testys and dalmans posts. They are both doing a good job arguing about artillery damage using facts and showing different situations. 6) Compare the megathron and the tempest. Megathron is the king of close-up damage and also very close to the tempest at artillery/railgun damage. There needs to be a reason for people to train minmatar battleships, and there wont be if you allow the megathron to be almost as good at range, and much, much better up close. The only thing it has going for it is currently alpha strike, which I think you should keep and make strong so there is a reason for people to choose it. You dont want everyone to go gallente, do you? And again, thanks for communicating. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Veryez	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:45:00 - [112] Good idea and a good step. Thanks Tux for looking into this. For those who don't understand why this is needed, balance. As far as looking into ammo sizes - thanks, nothing's worse than filling your cargo w/ammo and then running out. Forget having room for loot, the need to swap ammo mid-fight resists means I rarely go into combat w/my cargo less than 90% full. And while I don't fly Amarr ships or use lasers, the concerns expressed by my former captors over the hp increase further exaggerating laser weakness (damage type) are valid, and also should be looked at.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.23 18:50:00 - [113] Originally by: ElCoCo You still have the highest alpha compared to all other ships so I don't know wtf you on about. The problem is that you're used to need one salvo from X ammount of tempests to instapop a BS and now with the HP buff you'll need 1&1/2? Oh and don't swear. Yes, because Pests can reliably insta-pop any ship now. If your not an arty user, or have any idea wth your talking about (yes you ElCoCo) there is no need for you to post in this thread. But to appease all the "omg i fly one race bs's but i know it all lolz" people like you, in order for a Pest to even instapop a frigate, it means the frigate has to be stationary, and we need a decent bit of luck on our part to get decent hits. Maybe someone with 50mil skillpoints can do better, and actually get an instapop on a frigate thats moving, but its very unlikley without the use of an alt in a scimitar. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
xaioguai Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:02:00 - [114] Actually, 1400 apoc has greater alpha strike now, higher than tempest. and if i recall correctly, tempest will designated for short range ac while new maelstorm will become the new artillery gun boat. What if maelstorm has 5% damage bonus instead rate of fire bonus.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:11:00 - [115] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/10/2006 19:14:35 Originally by: xaioguai Actually, 1400 apoc has greater alpha strike now, higher than tempest. Yes. That is also one of the problems that needs to be taken into consideration. 8 guns with no bonuses (apoc) = 8 effective turrets 6 guns with 25% dmg bonus (tempest) = 7.5 effective turrets If Tempest is given 7.5% dmg per level, it gets 8.25 turrets of alpha strike. If large autocannons needs a boost, this might be a good fix. Problem is that the 0.25 advantage is pretty meaningless. I would rather that they lower large artillery damage, and give higher damage bonuses to the ships that are supposed to fit them (minmatar battleships). For example, lower their damage with 10%, but give tempest 15% damage per level. Its the only real fix I can think of to not make the Apoc a better choice than the Tempest for alpha striking. It would also allow for Tux to easier modify damage output of the ships... for example, Maelstrom might be overpowered with the above changes, but then it would be easy to just give it less of a damage bonus to keep it in line. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:12:00 - [116] Edited by: ElCoCo on 23/10/2006 19:12:21 double post ftl
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:12:00 - [117] Originally by: Popsikle Originally by: ElCoCo You still have the highest alpha compared to all other ships so I don't know wtf you on about. The problem is that you're used to need one salvo from X ammount of tempests to instapop a BS and now with the HP buff you'll need 1&1/2? Oh and don't swear. Yes, because Pests can reliably insta-pop any ship now. If your not an arty user, or have any idea wth your talking about (yes you ElCoCo) there is no need for you to post in this thread. But to appease all the "omg i fly one race bs's but i know it all lolz" people like you, in order for a Pest to even instapop a frigate, it means the frigate has to be stationary, and we need a decent bit of luck on our part to get decent hits. Maybe someone with 50mil skillpoints can do better, and actually get an instapop on a frigate thats moving, but its very unlikley without the use of an alt in a scimitar. Noone can instapop any BS alone duh. I was talking of fleet action. You said you need to have alpha-strike, which is already better (by quite a bit) than all other BS's. So what is realy your request? And I have minmatar BS 5 thank you.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.23 19:24:00 - [118] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 23/10/2006 19:24:42 Originally by: ElCoCo Noone can instapop any BS alone duh. I was talking of fleet action. You said you need to have alpha-strike, which is already better (by quite a bit) than all other BS's. So what is realy your request? And I have minmatar BS 5 thank you. The alpha strike needs to be boosted with the added hitpoints. I cant imagine anything worse than a useless alpha strike that doesnt mean anything. Then the megathron truly becomes the king of both up close combat and long range damage per second, and there is no longer a reason for people to bring minmatar to the battleship level. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:02:00 - [119] Originally by: Jim McGregor The alpha strike needs to be boosted with the added hitpoints. I cant imagine anything worse than a useless alpha strike that doesnt mean anything. Then the megathron truly becomes the king of both up close combat and long range damage per second, and there is no longer a reason for people to bring minmatar to the battleship level. I'm not saying I disagree, just trying to add things up. What would be an "acceptable" alpha strike? 10 tempests instapopping a BS? 15 tempests? From what I recon, tux is trying to make the on-paper dps equal on similarily used platforms (fleet-sniping setup) which I don't agree to.
Trefnis Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:06:00 - [120] Originally by: ElCoCo Noone can instapop any BS alone duh. I was talking of fleet action. You said you need to have alpha-strike, which is already better (by quite a bit) than all other BS's. So what is realy your request? And I have minmatar BS 5 thank you. Problem is that the burst didnt change, and we have seccond hp buff now El. Now tell me that when cruiser have 6-7k hp instead 3-4k it doeasnt matter for burst dmg. To do the same kind of dmg as we used to do before we need to use quake, and with quake you wont hit anything if either you or target are moving, and if you cant move you really want him dead in 1 volley before he get trans. high enough. As for bs vs bs it was never that important (thou killing armas in 5 volleys was fun).

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