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Kriz Lupin Krookid The Dominion Empire	Posted - 2006.10.26 00:38:00 - [421] In honesty, LV/V were just waiting for a reason to attack KOS. Its a shame, but thats eve. Kos as a whole is a logistics alliance, as any in the know V/LV are aware off. Kos knew the game was up, time to move out and regroup, i guess kos should thank you LV and V for that....you helped so much. FFS sakes guys its a game, and it appears we all suck at this game and playing it real. It takes a long time to rebuild burnt bridges. Can we grow up now?
Megadon Caldari Templars of Light	Posted - 2006.10.26 03:03:00 - [422] Edited by: Megadon on 26/10/2006 03:06:20 As a former FC of KOS I will tell you the communicatins problems occurred both ways and was a very frustrating thing. The people on the other side of the fence from you saw the communications problems as being your fault. Events such as LV suddenly deciding not to continue to support their POS's in F2A is a good example. To those in the trenches, it looked like LV in the space of 24 hours gave the coalition the finger and bugged out when the reality is that i'm sure this unfolded over the course of days. In the end I think all "leaders" in the coalition failed and are still failing at their jobs. Coalitions are much more difficult to run than alliances, and I dont think the leadership (demo, lightdark, chowdown) really made the necessary effort to insure they were in constant communications with their counterparts. Seems like it was always a situation where the attitude was "oh if something needs to be said, they will be the ones to pick up the phone and call me, I'm not calling them" kind of deal, or "lets all communicate by sending letters instead of just picking up the freakin phone and getting on TS." When you have situations like that, communications is bound to break down and youre going to get situations like we're in right now, when cooler heads do not prevail which obviously they haven't. This is a real shame, because at the end of the day, LV V and KOS have killed a lot of targets together and fought a lot of battles together regardless of the many many imperfections of the coalition or occassional bad tactics. I think throwing all this good work away that was built on the corpses of our mutual enemies is a bad thing for everyone. I don't think KOS arranging a cease fire with the RAGOONIMPS so they can avoid being obliterated is a good enough of a reason to throw it away and in the end, just reflects poorly on the whole lot. There's plenty of blame to go around for everyone unfortunately.
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 03:24:00 - [423] This course of action comes as of no surprise tbh sicne it realy shows what a large cluster F* the coaltion was, During my time there i wasnt part of leadership or anything but when an entire coalition cant hold the empire choke point on N-Rael or kill RA plex runners this realy showed the efficency of it and how ppl were REALY helping each other there. TBH what LV and V are doing now is just shooting them selves in the foot since after they are done with KOS they wont realy have much to do aginst RA and Goons since they couldnt do much with the coaltion now they are alone. PS:Ephemron is gonna have some real fun "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"**
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.26 03:40:00 - [424] Edited by: Plutoinum on 26/10/2006 03:40:35 Originally by: Kriz Lupin In honesty, LV/V were just waiting for a reason to attack KOS. Its a shame, but thats eve. Why ? You know, the territory someone can effectively control is quite limited. I remember the times in Cache several months ago, when the Coalition had pushed RA back to Cache. One big problem that delayed the takeover of Cache for some time was imho the 'What then ?'-question. We simply had no friendly alliance, who was willing and powerfull enough to takeover and secure Cache. The old coalition alliances had already enough space to care about. They wanted to remove RA also from Cache, but who should/could take and secure it wasn't clear. So I don't think that anyone was interested now in getting rid of an ally and removing they guys who secured Wicked Creek and helped out in Scalding Pass etc. If you let all feeling aside and just see it logically, I think it would have been an extremely bad idea to start trouble with KoS. P.S.: Just posting my personal view.
Kayle Ki	Posted - 2006.10.26 05:56:00 - [425] Edited by: Kayle Ki on 26/10/2006 05:59:27 While I don't agree with everything V and LV people are accusing KOS of to justify their actions, even if it were all 100% accurate, it doesn't change one simple fact- KOS got pounded, we lost our space, our funds are shot, we can't keep fighting this war. We needed to leave, our enemies gave us time to leave, and our friends are shooting us for doing so. Simple as that. The rest of the drama being dragged up in this thread is just to take the focus off that very simple situation. It DOESN'T MATTER who is to blame for getting us to this situation. Even if KOS was the most inept conglomeration of morons to ever turn on a computer, and deserved every piece of the pounding we recieved in the war, and were heaven blessed to be able to be on V and LVs side, none of that justifies being attacked by our heavenly friends for leaving when we're beaten. I don't care about how much V and LV helped or didn't help KOS. I don't care if V and LV never lifted a finger to help us defend our space, or even to evacuate our space. I don't need my hand held. What I do want is the same consideration from our "allies" as we got from our enemies, a moment to limp away from the fight with what we have left. Unless somebody from V or LV wants to actually claim that KOS was planning to join forces with RA and GOON, then every other "justification" is just silly.
Kyguard Fire Mandrill Astrophobics	Posted - 2006.10.26 06:01:00 - [426] Guys guys guys, can we not all just get along? The real enemy here is the FLA, they puppeteered everything!! === It's great being Amarr, aint it?(tm) [Insert badass sig to match ego here]
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.26 06:08:00 - [427] Originally by: Zedic This thread needs more cowbell: plink pew pew pew babies before we're done you'll all be wearing gold diapers. In rust we trust!!!
Zedic Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:49:00 - [428] que? That makes no sense. Oh and; "plink"
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:57:00 - [429] Originally by: Kayle Ki KOS got pounded, we lost our space, our funds are shot, we can't keep fighting this war. We needed to leave, our enemies gave us time to leave, and our friends are shooting us for doing so. Would things be diffrent if you leader hadnt lied to the coalition? I think they would... ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Mortiaca Caldari Freedom-Technologies Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:51:00 - [430] Edited by: Mortiaca on 26/10/2006 16:54:07 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Kayle Ki KOS got pounded, we lost our space, our funds are shot, we can't keep fighting this war. We needed to leave, our enemies gave us time to leave, and our friends are shooting us for doing so. Would things be diffrent if you leader hadnt lied to the coalition? I think they would... You're funny. No I don't think they would be different. Considering you are shooting at the entire alliance for the actions of 1 person? LOL That makes a whole lot of sense. Look if you can't get the idea that Knights of the Southerncross = the members. No where in there did I see someone War Dec Demogod. I see they war dec'd KOS. As for getting the crap beat out of us and the "lines of communication" I seem to remember somewhere that we had a coalition channel. When N7 went into the crapper I remember alot of V and LV saying they've never heard of that channel. I wonder why we didn't get help when those of us who are not in command were shouting and screaming in there for help.
mannyman Ghosts Of Stealth Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:24:00 - [431] seen the member count for KOS lately ? it went from 1800 members to 1200 in a few days... and still counting downwards..
Plazmalord Soban Amarr Hounds Of War Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:43:00 - [432] Edited by: Plazmalord Soban on 26/10/2006 19:43:45 lost 3 corps... one of which spread the misinformation about kos's intentions of setting allies to negative after a retreat...
Mortiaca Caldari Freedom-Technologies Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:29:00 - [433] Originally by: mannyman seen the member count for KOS lately ? it went from 1800 members to 1200 in a few days... and still counting downwards.. People who... 1. Didn't know what was going on because they never cared to. 2. Were considering leaving KOS because it wasn't the right aliance for them from the start. 3. Are wishy washy and hoping to pick "the side that wins" which is no one so that doesn't much work. 4. Spies 5. Good people who have decided that themselves or their corp wasn't ready for 0.0 yet. 6. Pick any other reason you would like. The fact that there are still 1200 people left says that there are 1200 people who know they did nothing wrong and are sticking together because that is what any group needs to do and should want to do in a time of need. For the other 400 I won't condemn or praise them. They simply needed and wanted a different situation for one reason or another. The same as I do not take it personally when someone joins our corp talks to no one and 1 week after joining leaves. I think you can't possibly know a corp in 1 week but that is their choice not mine. Possibly we just weren't the corp for them even tho I think we have one of the best corps you could ever have.
Roland 99 Minmatar Battlestars Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:36:00 - [434] F-ck it. im getting a little tired of chasing VI shuttles all over the wildlands as it is. _______ My pod is filled with beer. Dont make me spring a leak
Mortiaca Caldari Freedom-Technologies Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:46:00 - [435] Originally by: Roland 99 F-ck it. im getting a little tired of chasing VI shuttles all over the wildlands as it is. LOL I know how you feel. Got that same thing with a few inties last night. Jump run 300km off gate, warp, jump, run. Exhasting. I think I liked it better when I got obliterated by 20 hostiles I didn't know were on the other side of a gate.
DeeCo Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:56:00 - [436] Stating your alliance is 1200 strong is inaccurate. Consider if everyone has at least one alt, which cuts down your member ship to 600 people. Consider who are active? LetÆs say 1 in 3, which would cut down to 200 active players. Now factor in the time zone differencesàcut that down by 50%...you now have 100 people online at one time to defend an entire region. Now, lastly, factor in those that are Miners / PvEà This goes for everyone, basically what IÆm getting at, donÆt pay attention to any particular allianceÆs numbers. KOS just didnÆt have enough active players, who PvP, to back up their systemàand they lost. Drink water, drive on, and try again. If any regular KOS members are reading this, who werenÆt in a ôleadershipö position, donÆt take the war declaration personal. From my point of view, it was a decision based upon the mistakes made by those who are able to make decisions for your alliance. Furthermore, itÆs just a game we all play, mistakes were made on both sides, but weÆre all here to have as much fun as possible. DonÆt be discouraged, but it maybe also time for you to think about trying something new (Corporation, Alliance). Fly safe pilots, and try not to take anything personal. Lastly, for those who are bringing real life into this game, get a grip on reality. THIS IS A GAME. To error is human. ------------------- - Dee Proud member of Shinra -LV-
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:27:00 - [437] Originally by: DeeCo donÆt take the war declaration personal... ...Furthermore, itÆs just a game we all play.... ....try not to take anything personal. To error is human. seriously? lol I've heard many stories of ppl running out on corps and taking assets w/ em. I'm sure we've all heard stories of ppl getting stabbed in the back in many facets of this game. I got 50isk says the perpetrator ALWAYS says, 'dont take it personally'. Thats a nifty line ppl like to use when they know they just made a d1ck move and dont want ppl to remember them as d1cks. I dont think any of us (well most of us :P) have any delusions this is just a game. That has nothing to do w/ it really. Yeah, to err is human. but to be a d1ck is to be a d1ck. I, my corp and the rest of this alliance w/ make it by w/o your wonderful advise and words of wisdom.... we will fight another day. But every pilot you fire on in teh name of supposidly punishing our leader(s) shows your betrayal. Nice pat on the back, but too little WAY too late, I dont think anyone is gonna look at you or V the same. Your names are tainted, your actions have spoken, good luck w/ your future PR campaigns.
Mortiaca Caldari Freedom-Technologies Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:34:00 - [438] Just for you DeeCo I changed the wording. It actually wasn't my intention to state that we had 1200 actual players. Just a bad choice of words. You should be able to read it now and get the true intention of the post. Which, incidentally said the same thing yours did people felt the need to go somewhere else. However, I would not approve of a nice little plug in there telling pilots they might want to consider something new. Saying that there are some that have decided they need something new and suggesting to others that they might consider it as a suggestion and not a statement are 2 totally different things. It's about as bad as -V- flying thru 4E the other night trying to recruit "the non-traitors". Dun dun dun. If you are going to try to make a post that sounds impartial and non-stabbing read it a couple of times. Yes it's just a game. We're all human we make mistakes. If CCP pulled the plug tomarrow we'd all go back to our lives. It's not like any of this is going to "ruin someone's life" or acctually "kill them" if it does that is something they might need to investigate. If there is one thing that people can take from this eve-o thread it's that you can have 15 pages of nothing. It's a game and there's no accountability for what people say. I know some probably think less of me now than they did before. I know the saying that your reputation is all you have in eve. I also know that your reputation has a large bearing on your real life. I stick by what I know is right whether it ruins my reputation or not. Sometimes the popular opinion or believe is not the truth.
DeeCo Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:48:00 - [439] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: DeeCo donÆt take the war declaration personal... ...Furthermore, itÆs just a game we all play.... ....try not to take anything personal. To error is human. seriously? lol I've heard many stories of ppl running out on corps and taking assets w/ em. I'm sure we've all heard stories of ppl getting stabbed in the back in many facets of this game. I got 50isk says the perpetrator ALWAYS says, 'dont take it personally'. Thats a nifty line ppl like to use when they know they just made a d1ck move and dont want ppl to remember them as d1cks. I dont think any of us (well most of us :P) have any delusions this is just a game. That has nothing to do w/ it really. Yeah, to err is human. but to be a d1ck is to be a d1ck. I, my corp and the rest of this alliance w/ make it by w/o your wonderful advise and words of wisdom.... we will fight another day. But every pilot you fire on in teh name of supposidly punishing our leader(s) shows your betrayal. Nice pat on the back, but too little WAY too late, I dont think anyone is gonna look at you or V the same. Your names are tainted, your actions have spoken, good luck w/ your future PR campaigns. Hank man, you have way too much hate built up inside. Relax. I do understand though, some jack ass's use the "don't take it personally" a way to be an ass. I was referring to the majority. Think outside the box. Furthermore, my enemy will be the Red Alliance / Goonswarm as always. I don't consider KOS my enemies, mistakes were made on both sides. Anyways, this thread has burnt itself out. The "leaders" need to get their ass's on the phone and make some personal phone calls to settle this crap. Also, if you can't handle being in a position, STEP DOWN. Maybe, just maybe...the coalition should have waited until KOS turned their standings to negative before war declaring...otherwise we don't have any evidence to prove or disprove the rumor. All this just seems immature. Morticaa, yer right, it did sound condescending. I wasn't trying to focus on yer post, I was using it as an example to ramble I recon. Anyways, take care. ------------------- - Dee Proud member of Shinra -LV-
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:05:00 - [440] Edited by: HankMurphy on 26/10/2006 23:09:21 Originally by: DeeCo Hank man, you have way too much hate built up inside. Relax. I do understand though, some jack ass's use the "don't take it personally" a way to be an ass. I was referring to the majority....... I understand there are good and bad pilots on both sides of the fence. I dont hold each individual pilot responsible for teh actions of your leadership, i've met some great guys in my time out here. But understand its not built up hate, i just want to make it 100% clear what has happened and is happening. Alot of ppl in the last 15 pages would love ppl to think/believe things that are just not true. I did alot of 'yeah ok whatever' when my ERA friends complained about the coalition in their last days because i knew that it takes two to tango. Mistakes are rarely all one-sided. But then they didn't get war dec'd as they tried to leave Originally by: DeeCo Maybe, just maybe...the coalition should have waited until KOS turned their standings to negative before war declaring...otherwise we don't have any evidence to prove or disprove the rumor. All this just seems immature. you couldn't have said it better. Especially since (as we said before), we were never going to do that. If anyone does have any antimocity over this, i think its probaby over the fact 90% of teh former coalition just wont recognize the above fact. Go look at teh OP again. Head back to page 1 and take a good look at it. Ppl post here for teh entire community to see. Like Mortiaca said, all you really have in this game is your reputation. Believe me I am more than calm over this, but that doesn't mean i'll be silent. --------------------------- summary of all of hank's last posts: I'll be damned if I let traitors create a thread alledging WE were the traitors. MISTAKES were made on both sides, KOS pilots & leaders can face that. but... The treachery, the backstabbing. THAT was ALL on V / LV side Your pilots & leaders are going to have to face that and carry it (and other black eye's) with you.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:08:00 - [441] Edited by: Plutoinum on 27/10/2006 01:09:47 Originally by: HankMurphy The treachery, the backstabbing. THAT was ALL on V / LV side I don't agree. KoS leadership acted stupid. They napped RA and made a plan to pull-out from Wicked Creek without telling the rest of the coalition. They tried to keep it secret. When Demogod was asked about it, he lied. Those are facts so far. V/LV could only guess, what KoS' intention was. The only thing that was clear was that KoS-leadership couldn't be trusted in that moment. And sorry, alliance politics works on a leadership level and the members have to suck it up or leave the alliance, if something goes wrong, at least, until it's resolved. It would have been back-stabbing, if kos leadership had been honest about what was going on and didn't lie. But looks like they gave a f***. So what was the deal ? Hand over the rest of an important region between V and LV space peacefully to RA without telling the Coalition to get this NAP with RA in return to move out ? I'd call that also betrayal (again not from each member, but on a leadership level) In the end everyone can have his own opinion, but what has happened has happend. The question is not, if I like KoS. The question is, where I stand. The answer is: By my alliance. Same for the KOS guys I think so here we are.
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.27 04:07:00 - [442] Originally by: Mortiaca Edited by: Mortiaca on 26/10/2006 16:54:07 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Kayle Ki KOS got pounded, we lost our space, our funds are shot, we can't keep fighting this war. We needed to leave, our enemies gave us time to leave, and our friends are shooting us for doing so. Would things be diffrent if you leader hadnt lied to the coalition? I think they would... You're funny. No I don't think they would be different. Considering you are shooting at the entire alliance for the actions of 1 person? LOL That makes a whole lot of sense. Look if you can't get the idea that Knights of the Southerncross = the members. No where in there did I see someone War Dec Demogod. I see they war dec'd KOS. As for getting the crap beat out of us and the "lines of communication" I seem to remember somewhere that we had a coalition channel. When N7 went into the crapper I remember alot of V and LV saying they've never heard of that channel. I wonder why we didn't get help when those of us who are not in command were shouting and screaming in there for help. Just the fact that you admitted that your alliance leader did lie tells us something.... Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
VBboy Caldari The Phoenix Rising Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:34:00 - [443] There must be loads of pilots in KOS who still have allegence to the Coalition...I wonder if they will revolt from within or move to corps within the coalition?
HatePeace LoveWar Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:59:00 - [444] foolish.
Shadoo The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:13:00 - [445] Pfft. This thread has degrated to "he said, she said" bunch of nothingness and worthless spinning for PR. Drama value is now 0, Nebba isn't even eating any candles anymore. Some KOS corps will go, join perhaps old friends, some KOS pilots will go, perhaps join old friends. KOS itself however is going away from Wicked Creek -- and we take our most stubborn, committed and valued pilots. With our pilots we take lessons learned from our respected enemies RA and Goons. We also take lessons learned from our respected partners for the last 9 months, -V-, CHIMP and LV. We will go and rebuild, restock and refresh. Then we will then give our most stubborn, committed and valued pilots a new worthy challenge, which does not involve any of our old friends or foes from the past 9 months. Time will tell if we succeed or try again. This is all. Good luck -V-, CHIMP, RA, Goons, Imp, LV. Thanks for all the fish.
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:17:00 - [446] Will this new worthy challenge involve dropping Outposts in a certain set of regions that currently dont have any? gl, either way. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Burzon PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:22:00 - [447] Hmmm, it is very hard to believe that this is all happening. If i and my corp would not have left -V- before this incident we would have by now. It does not matter on how things were perceived from coaltion leadership and it does not matter wether or not Demogod lied when being questioned in coalition leadership channels. All i can say is that what would have mattered would have been some sort of patience, reasoning and diplomatic skill. I would have even agreed on setting KOS to neutral for the time where no information was available or the information was still too vagues for finding the final decision, but directly declaring them KOS and waging war on them is so utterly stupid that it took me days to come up with this answer. I had the utmost respsect for LV and -V- leadership (having been -V- Vice President for the last months), but this decisions realy hit me and surprised me. Why did you guys not even take into decision that your allies where on their knees and might have needed help ? Why did you not take into decision that KOS leadership was not in best shape and therefore information flow might be somewhat problematic ? Why did you not take into decision that there was the chance for finding better solutions ? Why did you not take into decision that you are not (expecially not -V-) in a postion to make more enemies ? A lot of questions and tbh before declaring war i would have answered and discussed these questions. Sad, very sad indeed. Burzon CEO PAX Interstellar Need salvation or paxification ? Call us !
Masochist Shinra	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:23:00 - [448] OH MY!!! KOS made me primary :)
Unfamed II FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:44:00 - [449] Originally by: VBboy There must be loads of pilots in KOS who still have allegence to the Coalition...I wonder if they will revolt from within or move to corps within the coalition? Thats already happened, and will continue to do so, most KOS corps have what it takes to continue fighting against ragoon. Thanks them for that.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:06:00 - [450] Edited by: Plutoinum on 27/10/2006 13:07:21 Originally by: Shadoo Pfft. This thread has degrated to "he said, she said" bunch of nothingness... Yes, sorry for that, I originally wanted to avoid that. Quote: This is all. Good luck -V-, CHIMP, RA, Goons, Imp, LV. Thanks for all the fish. Good luck for you too and be assured that I'm not happy with this ending either. I still remember the days when KoS moved into Wicked Creek, when I got invited to KOS-TS etc., was a few days before we joined V.

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