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Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.30 01:36:00 - [391] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nebuli Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks. No, they have low dps, delayed damage and the fact they can be shot down as drawbacks. Also the ships that have drone bonus's also have lower fittings and less slots than those that dont. CEO - Art of War
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 02:28:00 - [392] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nebuli Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks. No, they have low dps, delayed damage and the fact they can be shot down as drawbacks. Also the ships that have drone bonus's also have lower fittings and less slots than those that dont. Only if you dont consider the drone bay a usefull attribute to be balanced with fitting and slots.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 03:57:00 - [393] I've said it before and I'll say it again... Just up the Myrm drone space to 200 or so and give the drones a 7.5% bonus instead of a 10%. Simple.
Packtu'sa Caldari Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 04:02:00 - [394] Edited by: Packtu''sa on 30/10/2006 04:02:12 Harbinger (Amarr) - It looks like a nice ganking boat. No bonuses to tanking, but the capacitor need reduction and damage bonus looks simple and solid. Its four midslots to six lowslots go along with its nature as a pure-damage boat, rather than a ship that tanks damage. Seems fine to me. Drake (Caldari) - It's good that the new battlecruiser for Caldari will be a missile boat. Though many seem to be saying that the new battlecruisers should be all-gank and no-tank, I think that this only holds true for the Harbinger and Hurricane--the Drake and Myrmidon should have strong tanks. The seven launcher slots will give it a nice damage output, though if people try to fit all Heavy Missile Launchers in those slots, they will find an appalling lack of CPU and powergrid remaining--which is good, it forces people to think more about how they fit it. The Rate of Fire bonus is fine; if you replace this with a Kinetic damage bonus, Caldari will be even more restricted in their damage type than Amarr or Gallente. Myrmidon (Gallente) - Come on people, read the description. It's a ship designed to withstand damage and last on a battlefield, not one that will dish out loads of damage, which is, by the way, not the only factor one should consider on a ship. I think that the Myrmidon should be given a 125 m3 drone bay, but have the drone damage bonus removed and the drone hitpoints bonus increased to 20%. This will go hand-in-hand with its overall resiliance, and still maintain some of its previous damage potential. Keep the armor bonus, and give it a sixth turret slot. Hurricane (Minmatar) - A few things could be done with the Hurricane. It seems like its a nice damage boat like the Harbinger, and has enough capacitor/slots to tank a bit of damage. I like that it can't fit artillery without compromising the rest of its setup. Since it will be using autocannons, though, let's give it a bit of speed; increase its max velocity to 175 m/s, or alternatively, replace its Rate of Fire bonus with a 5% Max Velocity bonus. This would make it a bit less of gank and more of manuevering, so I personally would prefer the base max velocity increase, as long as its CPU and powergrid are not enough to fit a strong artillery setup. I hope to be producing all four of these when the patch is released, so I look forward to all of them. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.30 06:32:00 - [395] Originally by: Packtu'sa Hurricane (Minmatar) - A few things could be done with the Hurricane. It seems like its a nice damage boat like the Harbinger, and has enough capacitor/slots to tank a bit of damage. I like that it can't fit artillery without compromising the rest of its setup. Since it will be using autocannons, though, let's give it a bit of speed; increase its max velocity to 175 m/s, or alternatively, replace its Rate of Fire bonus with a 5% Max Velocity bonus. This would make it a bit less of gank and more of manuevering, so I personally would prefer the base max velocity increase, as long as its CPU and powergrid are not enough to fit a strong artillery setup. The Hurricane is fine as is. There are very few complaints leveled at it, I imagine there would be outrage if it were changed now. It's everything we ever dreamed of, the Rupture's bigger brother. And I definetly plan to use artillery with it. It would mean no tank but that is something I can live with. The joys of alliance warfare...
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 06:58:00 - [396] about the hurricane... i had not much time to try it out well, it seem a nice boat but is also extremely slow... my phoon probably is a bit faster and more maneuverable considering its stats and the lack of tanking bonus i wish it could get some more speed 175-180... had no chance to try/see other BCs in action, on paper the drake seem an awesome ship... probably a bit too awesome
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.10.30 08:41:00 - [397] Originally by: Nebuli Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous. Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target. "I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!" As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship. The more I read and look at the math, the more I agree with you. I'd gladly gladly gladly trade in my high slots down to two (remote rep and range boost, gotta give the little guys SOME loving) for maybe another low slot, some more drone space, and perhaps an extra live drone or two. Maybe do a thing like, "+1 drones for every two levels past 1" so that at level 3 BC you get +1 drone, level 5 you get +2. But holy ****, as it stands right now, I might as well go back to my Vexor. I'd much rather go 600m/s with rails and have a pack of rabid HH2 cycling in and out, than this slow rock with naught but a quad of Ogres waiting to be raped by anything that's not a tier 1 BC with poor tracking.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.30 11:15:00 - [398] Originally by: Packtu'sa Harbinger (Amarr) - It looks like a nice ganking boat. No bonuses to tanking, but the capacitor need reduction and damage bonus looks simple and solid. Its four midslots to six lowslots go along with its nature as a pure-damage boat, rather than a ship that tanks damage. Seems fine to me. Problem is that vs the hurricane it is worse in every aspect but drone bay. It is slower, it's tank is worse, it does less dps and has less fitting space avaiable after shortrange weapons fitted.
Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:04:00 - [399] Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm, i've only just managed to get on the test server, but once i got in a fight (with a drake) i killed it when i was still on half armor. We started nearly 50km away from each other, and my drones even decided to wander off halfway through. The character was over a year older than me, and he didn't target my drones (who knows what would have happened if he had). My tank appeared to be able to sustain itself for a little while(with 3 nos) and my dps with 3 ions could have been enough to finish him off in time. All im saying is that the Myrm has excellent damage (i was using 3 ogres and 2 hammerhead IIs), so maybe it should have some weakness, sure up its bay to 125m3 but at 200+ i think it will be far overpowered, with no weakness. This is coming from someone who intends to buy a Myrm as their main ship on TQ.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:59:00 - [400] Originally by: Tintifish Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm This. -- NMTZ forum

Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 15:54:00 - [401] Just managed to log back in (for about 3 minutes)and noticed the Myrm now has only 2 turrets. Im pretty sure this wasn't like this before, seeing i have 3 fitted. I think only have 2 turrets and a 100m3 drone bay is a bit too far?
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:00:00 - [402] Originally by: Tintifish Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm, i've only just managed to get on the test server, but once i got in a fight (with a drake) i killed it when i was still on half armor. We started nearly 50km away from each other, and my drones even decided to wander off halfway through. The character was over a year older than me, and he didn't target my drones (who knows what would have happened if he had). My tank appeared to be able to sustain itself for a little while(with 3 nos) and my dps with 3 ions could have been enough to finish him off in time. All im saying is that the Myrm has excellent damage (i was using 3 ogres and 2 hammerhead IIs), so maybe it should have some weakness, sure up its bay to 125m3 but at 200+ i think it will be far overpowered, with no weakness. This is coming from someone who intends to buy a Myrm as their main ship on TQ. He used the wrong tactics basically, if he had then you would be dead. Either he has has no PvP experience or he doesn't know the Myrm's stats so assumed you had replacement drones. Zarch AlDain
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:07:00 - [403] Originally by: Tintifish Just managed to log back in (for about 3 minutes)and noticed the Myrm now has only 2 turrets. Im pretty sure this wasn't like this before, seeing i have 3 fitted. I think only have 2 turrets and a 100m3 drone bay is a bit too far? Oh please oh please tell me my dream came true and we've ditched the crappy turrets in favor of the real dogged persistance and tankability the description promises us, along with a +# drone control bonus (Hell! I have a better idea than before. Tie bonus drone count into advanced drone interfacing, a skill that noncarriers otherwise have put to waste! +1 per level of that) and bay increase. Oh please oh please. What's my one account in the face of thousands but I pledge six months purchased upon patch release if we get this kind of deal.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:10:00 - [404] No, 3 fitted + 2 hardpoints on fitting screen = 5. If you fit 5, it'll say the ship has 0 hardpoints, because it shows the amount of turret/missiles hardpoints still free. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:26:00 - [405] Ah lol, explains it, i checked ship description as well, but must have checked my ship's becuase the market was broke by this point. Nevermind...we can but hope :)
Packtu'sa Caldari Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 17:26:00 - [406] The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. Its ability to dish out damage is superceded by its ability to withstand it, so personally, I would be asking for cap/lowslot/cpu/powergrid changes rather than this futility of wanting to match the Hurricane's DPS. A Hurricane will not be able to tank nearly as well as a Myrmidon will, so why should the Myrmidon be matching its DPS? If the Harbinger does less damage than the Hurricane, I propose that a lowslot be taken from the Hurricane so that one less damage/tracking mod can be used. They should be fairly close in damage-per-second, but remember that the Hurricane can change damage types, and it will be faster and smaller. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 18:26:00 - [407] mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane harbringer with focused medium pulse is not that wors than 425mm, a bit less damage at closer range but better range... if you factor in the bigger dronebay then the dps is almost identical (with better range for the harb) focused medium pulse is also easier to fit, so the harb should have better tank than the hurricane (easier fitting and 15-20% more base armor hps) the hurrican can mount an additional missile launcher to improve its dps, while the harbringer is stuck with the nos (still quite benefical), so i don't see the reason of all this whinage
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.30 18:54:00 - [408] Originally by: Ath Amon mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane ... so i don't see the reason of all this whinage that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:06:00 - [409] Originally by: Packtu'sa The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. All the more reason it needs a larger drone bay. If it's built to tank, then that means it needs to LAST on the battlefield. Without spare drones all it can do is tank until it dies. Basically if your in a Myrm and you lose your drones, just hit the self-destruct button and be done with it.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:17:00 - [410] Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 19:18:00 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here. yes i see the cap problem, but harbs have also more range and base tankage so i don't see a huge umbalance harb vs hurr, both with 1 nos, i will prefer to stay in the hurr, but mostly due to 70% base ew res. still harb is better suited for longer range as noses are less a problem... against a brutix for example probably i will prefer the harb so in the end i consider them quite balanced, maybe hurr a bit better but is also quite situational

Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:26:00 - [411] Originally by: Packtu'sa The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. Its ability to dish out damage is superceded by its ability to withstand it, so personally, I would be asking for cap/lowslot/cpu/powergrid changes rather than this futility of wanting to match the Hurricane's DPS. A Hurricane will not be able to tank nearly as well as a Myrmidon will, so why should the Myrmidon be matching its DPS? ... Why can't a Hurricane tank almost as well? It has one more low slot for an additional rep, it has oodles of grid available and ACs need no cap and are easy to fit. -- NMTZ forum
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:44:00 - [412] Edited by: Goumindong on 30/10/2006 19:52:35 Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 19:18:00 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here. yes i see the cap problem, but harbs have also more range and base tankage so i don't see a huge umbalance harb vs hurr, both with 1 nos, i will prefer to stay in the hurr, but mostly due to 70% base ew res. still harb is better suited for longer range as noses are less a problem... against a brutix for example probably i will prefer the harb so in the end i consider them quite balanced, maybe hurr a bit better but is also quite situational It has "20% more tankage" Which is true if you consider the resists equal, where the Hurricanes armor resists are actualy about 20% better than the Harbingers[10% bonus to EM resists = 25% less EM damage, 10% bonus to explosive resists = 12.2% less explosive damage] Harbingers also dont really have more range, well it only does if the Harb if sitting a MWD and the opponent is not, and the Harb neither has the fitting ease, or capacitor ease to do so. The Harbinger is not paticularly fast and has no way to dictate range like the Hurricane does, not like it matters if your optimal is under web range anyway. One thing i think you are forgetting about the fact that no, Focused Medium Pulses really arent close to 425's FMP II DPS Multiplier = .5926 425 II DPS Multiplier = .616 Now what happens when with 1 level of BC to 5 levels of BC 425 II DPS Multiplier BC1 = .6468 425 II DPS Multiplier BC2 = .6776 425 II DPS Multiplier BC3 = .7084 425 II DPS Multiplier BC4 = .7392 425 II DPS Multiplier BC5 = .77 Looking at 425's against Focused Medium Pulses and figuring out how much more damage the 425's do in a percentage amount at each level of Battlecruiser. BC 1 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 9.1% BC 2 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 14.3% BC 3 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 19.5% BC 4 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 24.7% BC 5 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 29.9% Now in exhcange for this very large damage difference, the hurricane is smaller, faster, doesnt use cap on its guns, has a better tank, and will have about 300 PG less than you to fit things other than weapons. Oops, its a shame that that 300 PG is irrelevent because at AWU 0, the Hurricane can still fit a 1600 plate, MAR II, and AB II/MWD, but doesnt give you the ability to fit two 1600 plates+reppers/AB. I dont know what "faster/harder to hit/takes less damage/doesnt use capacitor to fire guns/does more damage" means to you, but to me, it means "better" edit: Rigs make the damage come back into place a bit, but still leave the Hurricane with better damage if it also fits one rig, and it certianly can. + the whole not using cap thing.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:46:00 - [413] Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2006 20:58:26 Well, "DPS Multiplier" as a comparison tool is kinda useless until. EMP M does less damage than AM M and MF M You don't calculate damage@range and tracking - need NB's spreadsheet for this You don't factor in reload time over your average fight time - again need NB's spreadsheet for this Not that I've been able to find a setup that can fit MWD + Injector + DUal rep or Rep + 1600 on the Hurricane with 425s and a nos or heavy assault, I have to use 220s. Regardless, looks to me they should give it back its 8th turret. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:48:00 - [414] Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 20:48:42 EM dmg is not that common in close range... also the range is way better, around 2x if i remember right... the difference in dps at BC5 is compensated by better drone dps, i looked at graph and as said in the other post is very similar with harbringer who have better range also harb is slower than a hurr but is faster than a brutix so is not that slow compared to other bcs and against cruisers that are generally faster its higher range should be quite benefical. (of course i'm speaking with similar config with both ships with 1 nos) later i'll post a graph (now can't :( ) also with rigs that increase turret dps at the cost of PG is not that bad to have a bit more pg :)
Tek'a Rain Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:53:00 - [415] why do folk keep proclaiming that removing the damamge modifier for drones is a magic fix? take away the bonus and suddenly the ship that was almost, barely, approximatly as hard hitting as the vexor is now much less so, while still being crippled and nerfed for its class and size.. silly, just silly. Foiritan Is Our Man
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:25:00 - [416] This is just a suggestion for the Galante teir 2 BC. Alter the drone damage/hitpoints bonus to effect only light and medium drones. Change the armour bonus to a +1 drone contol per lvl. Change drone capacity to 200m3. Also add this. It can not hold heavy drones. Keep the rest the same. Flame suit on.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:26:00 - [417] Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 20:48:42 EM dmg is not that common in close range... also the range is way better, around 2x if i remember right... the difference in dps at BC5 is compensated by better drone dps, i looked at graph and as said in the other post is very similar with harbringer who have better range also harb is slower than a hurr but is faster than a brutix so is not that slow compared to other bcs and against cruisers that are generally faster its higher range should be quite benefical. (of course i'm speaking with similar config with both ships with 1 nos) later i'll post a graph (now can't :( ) also with rigs that increase turret dps at the cost of PG is not that bad to have a bit more pg :) 1. DPS multiplier is relevent because A: Lasers have worse tracking than other guns[FMP has 30% worse tracking than 425 II B: Range is irrelevent unless the ship can dictate its range, which the very slow Harbinger cannot, especialy since the range it needs to dictate is under web rage with pulse weapons. C: Ammo and Crystals [t1 at least] do similar damage at equal ranges modifications. The difference at BC 5 is compensated by better drone DPS when the harbinger is using Heavy Pulses and the Hurricane is using 220's Rigs would be great, but even with rigs, the 425's do better than the FMP's with 3 rigs, if the 425 has 1 rig. So the Hurricane has 2 other slots to fit with things like an 8% PG rig [And then the Harbingers PG fitting bonus is gone and the Hurricane is ahead by 15 PG in absolute terms(1890 to 1875)] So now the Hurricane is using less PG for guns, doing more damage, has an extra rig slot it can use, and has more absolute powergrid. If the Harbinger doesnt fit three gun rigs, it does less damage than the Hurricane. And the Hurricane is still faster, smaller, and doesnt need to use cap to fire its guns.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:48:00 - [418] Well, T2 ammo wont be so common anymore after the nuuurfs, so Autocannons will have to fight against 24hp MF M with EMP M (22hp) or Phased Plasma M (20hp). So damage figures which don't take this into account fail @ reality. Also, thanks to the ludicrous rof of Auto's, reload time puts a considerable dent in your dps in any real 1-on-1, especially with the 50% HP boost. So much so that 425mm ACs had to have their clip size boosted because they actually did less dps than 220s in a fight thanks to clip size. Not that anyone is going to fit 425s anyway. Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:51:00 - [419] Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:52:34 Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:51:45 I think that the Myrmidon still needs a lot of work. With 8 Highs, 5 turrets and no hybrid bonus it is designed to be used with LASERS. You can fit 5 Focused Medium Pulse laser II 3 NOS to offset the extra cap required by the lasers A repairer and an Afterburner (not enough grid for MWD) It is a bigger arbitrator, not a smaller dominix. We need a tier 2 battlecruiser that can be used by gallente pilots. Please, at least change the turret hardpoints to missile hardpoints.
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:59:00 - [420] Originally by: Zhull Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:52:34 Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:51:45 I think that the Myrmidon still needs a lot of work. With 8 Highs, 5 turrets and no hybrid bonus it is designed to be used with LASERS. You can fit 5 Focused Medium Pulse laser II 3 NOS to offset the extra cap required by the lasers A repairer and an Afterburner (not enough grid for MWD) It is a bigger arbitrator, not a smaller dominix. We need a tier 2 battlecruiser that can be used by gallente pilots. Please, at least change the turret hardpoints to missile hardpoints. Oh, by the way, and it can have a mean shield tank



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