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Mephysto	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:17:00 - [1] Discuss here so we dont have to read 500000000 threads.

Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:23:00 - [2] Edited by: Blind Man on 26/10/2006 10:23:33 I may as well post my thread here then. considering BC level 5: Caldari Ferox and Drake, they both get a shield res bonus (I thought the tier 2's were more 'damage dealers'?) The Drake also gets another mid and high over the Ferox, making it a better tank anyway. Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. I also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship. Amarr I see more of the same here. The Harbinger gets 7 guns, whereas the Absolution gets 6. Unless you have command ships level 5 (Damage AND ROF bonus on Absolution both come from this skill) I believe that a Harbinger comes very close DPS-wise. I didn't check the other BC's but the Harbinger has more armor HP than the absolution? Minmatar To MATCH the damage of a hurricane, you need command ships 5 on a Sleipnir. Now given that a hurricane loses a lot of tank to use 3 gyros where the Sleipnir loses nothing, it may seem as less of a problem. However the ability to fit MWD, scram, web, and cap injector AND have the same damage as a Sleipnir, seems a bit silly. Gallente Actually don't see much wrong here, Brutix and Astarte seem fine, and the Myrmidon- it seems to be nicely lower in damage than the Eos (the way it should be.) It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:31:00 - [3] The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 - [4] the nighthawk needs a 7th launcher, that should have been painfully apparent right from the start though. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Blind Man Ferox and Drake, they both get a shield res bonus (I thought the tier 2's were more 'damage dealers'?) True enough, but I can't really endorse the idea that this thing does even more damage. Originally by: Blind Man The Drake also gets another mid and high over the Ferox, making it a better tank anyway. Also true. Originally by: Blind Man Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. Yea, after this I feel that the Ferox will need to have a look at in order to not become useless to anyone who is not using it as a stepping stone between the Moa and Rokh. Originally by: Blind Man I also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship. Also an issue, but the Drake doesn't have the resists of the NightHawk. Though I do agree their comparative damages need some tweaking. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:42:00 - [6] If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay! Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc. It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:47:00 - [7] Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 10:48:04 Oh and please fix the model/texture on the Harbinger so that the last turret isn't lopsided on the bottom, move it to the centre of the ship - or give it its 8th turret back =P Originally by: madaluap It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. And the Brutix. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Leshrac Shepherd Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:54:00 - [8] Changing the resistance bonus on the drake to missile speed seems to make some sense, even if only for the sake of consistence, missile ships rarely get resistance bonuses, with the only case being the nighthawk. I also think adding an extra turret to the merlin, moa, raptor, eagle and ferox wouldn't hurt anything balance wise, not that it matters as the only way to make them popular would be making them better than their equivalent missile ships, and I don't have to explain how ridiculous would that be. I understand why people want a bigger drone bay in the myrmidon, It makes sense that you should able to bring spare wings of drones with you, the problem is that allowing that would also make the myrmidon's firepower go even higher than it is now, and it wouldn't really be fair. Anyway, it presents choices, you can either pack 4 heavy drones for max damage or 10 med drones or any combination to have spare ones. It doesn't seem so bad once you factor in the ship also has 8 hi slots and 5 turrets.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:04:00 - [10] I don't think that the "final" version of the Drake will be keeping that 5% shield resists bonus... or at least I hope so. It's got roughly enough of a gank going (so damage bonus would be overkill, but range not so much), no need to give it more tank (I thought it's supposed to be inferior in tanking to the Ferox, it's not). Change that 5% shield resist to kinetic missile damage (or missile speed, or missile flight time) or even (semi-useless bonus) of less capacitor for shieldboosters (as if you wouldn't use it as passive tank anyway... this way you could make it work as active tank too). _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself

Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:16:00 - [11] The extra drone bay on the gallente BC seems like a good idea as currently it's pretty pathetic. If it's considered too strong to let it field 5 heavy drones then why not have it with a 150m3 drone bay but its drone bonus only applies on light and medium drones. That's an incentive to use smaller drones and use the drone bay for replacements/options instead of racks of heavy drones. The drakes does seem rather strong - but possibly only because the ferox is so weak. The ferox needs more turert hardpoints. I would like to see the drake be weaker defensively for balance reasons (although I would love to fly it how it is now!) so perhaps it should get a 5% damage bonus on kinetic missiles instead of the current resist bonus? This does give it an option of increasing damage output, but only by tieing it to one damage type. Zarch AlDain
Lydia Browm Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:19:00 - [12] The BC's damage should be close the that of its T2 variant ie the Field Command, with the same damage you are forgetting the CS still has the bigger tanks. Myrmidon (sp) give it 25m3 more dronebay or give it a 15% bonus to drones? or 12.5%. Or maybe 10% bonus to the damage and a 20% bonus to its hitpoints. I criplled a Myrmidon with T2 heavies in a basic T1 / namd setup lock drones web shoot rinse and repeat 4 times. Left it criplled and then slowly went through its tank. PLEASE don't give it a hybrid bonus Drake give it slightly less pg so that it can't fit a nasty tank aswell as assault missiles or heavies. I swa one drake had a tank 3 bcu pdu and heavy missiles and i tried to take him in the hurricane, didn't manage but was probably using the wrong ammo The Amarr pretty good, maybe give it some more cap, fits Heavy Pulse II and a decent gank setup Hurricane pretty good deal some damage and can look after itself long enough to kill most armour tanking ships becuase I use Fusin on shield too Don't nerf them completely, just try and keep them on PAR with CS damage but just bare 1 thing in mind, they won't be able to tank And one last thing Look ma I'm in a DEV's thread ___________________________________________ Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty...
Mysterlee Gallente 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:20:00 - [13] Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:21:32 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:20:39 The Myrmidon definately needs a bigger drone bay, 175m3 would be a nice value and allows more variety in its choice of drones. Fielding 1 extra heavy drone vs the 4 it can currently field wont make a huge difference to its DPS. The ship texture of the Myrmidon could do with having the 6th turret hardpoint removed and it could also do with being a bit more detailed, it looks a bit cartoony as it is right now. I'm not sure but the 7th turret hardpoint of the Hurricane and Harbinger could be swapped for a launcher slot and the 7th launcher slot on the Drake removed to bring their DPS slightly lower than their T2 equivalents and also lower the powergrid slightly to compensate. Their T2 equivalents should also have their models replaced with the new tier 2 BC models and have their stats adjusted to match the tier 2 BCs more closely.
Bramson Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:27:00 - [14] Myrmidon I disagree with increasing the drone bay anymore that it currently is. With the current 100 m3 drone bay that is 2 waves of tech 2 medium drones which can rip up a cruiser and other battlecruisers while still doing decent damage to battleships. I really like how this ship is setup currently - It is a step between a VEXOR and a DOMINEX for purpose of survivability and being a drone boat. On a side note: The designer of this ship created it with the purpose of using 6 turret slots and currently with its 5 turret slots it looks like it is missing a turret. ###### Caldari Battlecruiser Usually with Caldari you can see a progression of ship types in the sizes. For example: Cruiser Moa and BattleCruiser Ferox have similiar bonus's and good for your average hybrid specialized caldari pilot especially now they have to look forward to the Rokh. With the new BC for Caldari which is more like a CARACAL and a mini Raven - you would think it would have the normal % bonus to kinetic missile damage and missile velocity bonus. Giving it the 5% shield per level as well is pretty extreme ;). Application Programming Agent
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:31:00 - [15] If it gets 50% range or velocity to missiles it becomes even more overpowered with assault missiles. Those things are already going to tear most ships a new exhaust port. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. 'Same DPS as Dominix'. Really, Mr Exclamation Mark. What insight you have. The Dominix can EASILY top 1000 DPS. In fact, it is in theory the highest DPS ship in the whole game. Havent you trained large blasters yet? I recommend you do. The Dominix is more than simply a Nos boat. The bonus to large hybrids should not be wasted. I'll tell you what anyone with the slightest bit of PvP savvy will do when they see a Myrm in its current state: They will pop the drones and render it utterly useless. 100m3 simply is not big enough for a ship which is mid-way between the Vexor and Dominix.
V0idz Gallente Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:35:00 - [17] Edited by: V0idz on 26/10/2006 11:35:50 I've to agree to nearly all posts about the Gallente BC. The Myrmidon needs a bigger dronebay but only an bous to light- and med-drone damage per level. Example 1 (Drone related): - 175m¦ dronebay - 7,5% Damage for Light- and Med-Drones per Skill-Level Example 2 (Drone related): - 150m¦ dronebay - 5% more dronebay capacity per Skill-Level something like this.. jm2c ---
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Old Geeza Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. Sweet jesus no. It's nice being able to Get decent damage out of all missile types rather than one kind. And the Slot swapping? eugh, no. That Extra mid allows it to do so much, a Warp Scrambler is needed for PvP. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:40:00 - [19] Originally by: Old Geeza If it gets 50% range or velocity to missiles it becomes even more overpowered with assault missiles. Those things are already going to tear most ships a new exhaust port. Speed hurricanes will be a great counter to Assault Drakes. They'll jsut stay out of range and whittle you down in a 1v1, and in general PvP there will be plenty of other ships doing this too. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Namtuk	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:50:00 - [20] So basicaly u guys are asking for another overpowered Caldari ships, drake with 25% dmg bonus lol nice joke, as for the statement BS dmf should be close to there T2 variant whats that all about train for months only tom senn some noobs getting into a ship that needs very basic skills and be able to do same dmg or more with right setup, hmm let me see I THINK NO to that one

Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:51:00 - [21] Drake seems very nice - very capable and I think people is just scared... 7 launchers with rof bonus seems like much but the other ships got a lot of weapons too, and even the gallente tier 1 BC should still be able outdamage the Drake... 6 medslots is needed for a Caldari PvP ship of this size... We won't be able to get asweet passive tanked Drake spitting out Heavies/Heavy Assaults, so we need all 6 slots for tank, scrambler and Afterburners/MicroWarpDrives and I still doubt we'll have a strong tank... Shield Resist Bonus - That will help the shield tank a lot... If it doesn't stay I can understand it, but only because the ferox gunboat already has this bonus. 6 medslots isn't a lot so if it stays it'll ease up the pain a bit to get a descent tank while still having a free slot for mwd/scrambler... I guess thats why it's on testserver Pinky
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:54:00 - [22] Why not give the Myrmidon the drone bay it needs and then restrict the drone bonuses to only light and medium drones (thus leaving the Domi as the heavy drone boat).
Kapitanleutnant Mei	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:03:00 - [23] my suggestion is simple GANK not TANK DRAKE: replace 5% shield resist bonus with 10% missile velocity- this make it even more of a killing machine but a lot more vulnerable. It also makes sense for consitencies's sake and don't raise its dps any further which is important Myrmidon: (I'm less certain about these so they may suck) replace 10% drone damage bonus with +10M3 of drone bay per skill level - it can now use your 5 heavies but is more vulnerable replace armour rep bonus with 5% med hybrid damage per level, again this makes it more deadly but as we've removed the drone hitpoint damage bonus this helps offset that by ensuring its not totally fubared if it has to bring out its lights. I don't fly ammarr or minnie but from what i;ve seen they seem to work very well- the Ammarr one could possibly do with like 25 more grid just to ease its fitting but that's about it, the minnie one looks pure sex
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:07:00 - [24] Harbringer is a pain to fit. Im with AWU 4 and fit heavy pulses + ab + 800 plate + small rep its my max this is even counting turret rigs with make it worse. I tried fit a cap booster but there isnt enough powergrid It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:11:00 - [25] Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 12:14:23 Even with 5 heavy drones and the current bonuses the Myrm wont come even close to Domi DPS - just like the Ishtar doesent. It ill be about 3-400 DPS short, which is LOADS. It will, in fact, still do less damage than a brutix... Originally by: Mikal Drey Im not keen on it You are insane, your name is on the list and some nice men will come by your house tonight to take care of you. Its a zomgawesome AC boat, ACs > Arty, dont you dare touch it to make it another lame shield-tanked artypantsthing. More speed = good though ^_^ Dont touch the bonuses on pain of sodastreamed bree. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Mikal Drey Angels and Demons	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:11:00 - [26] hey hey Hurricane Description on the Hurricane "suggests its gonna be fast" its base speed is the same as the cyclone. I'd love and think that its base speed should be slightly improved to reflect this. 4x mids on a matari ship :/ i ws expecting a shield tanking Arty boat but its looking towards an auto cannon setup. Grid : Tried to get a 720mm setup acros the top and a semi decent armor tank in the lows and totally failed. ( and i have high skills) next trip will try autos as i suspect this will be more suited for. Looks : OMFG yeah it looks sexhey but doesnt fit matari style; however looks awesomely shagable. Drone bay needs a tweek. its smalller than the Cyclones and really should be bigger. Damage looks strong and the bonus fits matari designs but the balance between Tier II and Commands would then be out of whack. not convinced id buy one or if it will be effective PvE but if the base speed was tweeked and maybe a bonus to MWD or AB i think it would be pretty good PvP in a small roaming gank squad. TBH i much prefer the cyclone. CAP : yes i think the increased cap is spot on. Skill Req. Skill should req. BC 2 minimum. I know most will train ship skills to 3 min but 2 really should be required for a tier II ship. I'll flight test it some more, blow a few up, and tank test it till it breaks. Im not keen on it ( im 100% minmatar spec'ed ) but will keep an open mind atm.
Kapitanleutnant Mei	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:18:00 - [27] Originally by: keepiru It will, in fact, still do less damage than a brutix... I don't understand the problem with this- the brutix does phenominal dps- its a blaster boat , and you want to give the myr MORE
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:26:00 - [28] You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:31:00 - [29] Here's an interesting titbit on the Myrmidon: 5 Medium drones do 237.6 thermal damage or less (there is no way at all to get it higher). Here's an interesting titbit on cruisers: Cruisers generally aren't ripped apart by merely 250dps. The damage output of the Myrmidon is low. It's lack of replacements crippling. This could be weighed up by being placed on an adequate backup platform with either turret-based damage or electronics based backup, but the Myrmidon is, with the changes to ECM, not capable of performing neither. It needs it's drone bay doubled or more (this would at most add 95 more dps to the Myrmidon, which would allow it to compete with the other BCs for dps if it sacrifices it's tank - you can't tank with two low slots and an MWD on board). - What am I listening to?
Mikal Drey Angels and Demons	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:31:00 - [30] Originally by: keepiru your name is on the list and some nice men will come by your house tonight to take care of you. Its a zomgawesome AC boat, ACs > Arty, dont you dare touch it to make it another lame shield-tanked artypantsthing. IF the speed and agility gets increased Id forsee a stabber/vaga styled BC and yes it would Pwn. the cap looks good for a dual rep setup and 5/2 autos and the new heavy assault missiles will be pretty damn cool. but in its current state its still a minne sludge monkey. Also with such a good bonus and AC effectiveness the sleipnir might need an upgrade (slightly) STILL NOT KEEN and i can hear them comming oh and Cyclone for Claymore graphic and Hurricane for the sleipnir :)

Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:34:00 - [31] Originally by: keepiru You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes? In theory. In practice it does not. The theoretical levels are only reachable if you fit it with neutron blasters and damage mods, which leaves no powergrid for even an MWD. However, it also needs to be said that the Dominix has only one less hardpoint than the Megathron and similar damage bonuses. As we all know theory > practice. The Dominix does not outdamage the Megathron. - What am I listening to?
El'jonson	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:34:00 - [32] The Myr is a DRONE BOAT !!! please don't try and turn it into a 1/2 drone 1/2 gunboat. If u want to use turrets fly a brutix. Tier 2 bc will cost twice tier 1 so the cost of a Myr is around 45-50 mil, this is alot closer to the cost of a tier 1 bs than a cruiser so the damage done should reflect this so the Myr should have a drone bay of 200m3. All these ppl saying just fit nos and blasters... Nos are probably going to get nerfed soon. Blasters on this ships makes no sense as it is a pure drone boat hence the no bonus to hybrid damage, also if u fit it with blasters you have no option other than to get up close to your target which is what the brutix is for. Which as the Myr has the highest sig radius means getting the blasters into range takes time (normally) in which you will be taking damage. In short I don't mind losing a few turrets in favour of the gallente finally getting a pure drone boat.
SexySexy Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:35:00 - [33] Myrmidon : i wish +1 drone control per level
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: keepiru You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes? In theory. In practice it does not. The theoretical levels are only reachable if you fit it with neutron blasters and damage mods, which leaves no powergrid for even an MWD. However, it also needs to be said that the Dominix has only one less hardpoint than the Megathron and similar damage bonuses. As we all know theory > practice. The Dominix does not outdamage the Megathron. Yes. Thats exactly my point. WHat that means is: there's no real reason not to give the myrmidon 6 hardpoints and 250m3 drone bay, since even if you did cripple yourself with 6 neutrons and 3 damage mods, leaving you with not enough grid for your obligatory tech II sodastream, you will still be outdamaged by the brutix. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:59:00 - [35] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:45 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:05 Also here a myrmidon consideration: As it is now sucks because it should be a drone ship but with this drone bay everyone will immediatly shot at his drones instead the ship living him unable to make damage ( ergo: is death). A drone ship MUST have a great replacement of drenes. COnsider that it's whe only weapon that can be popped in game .. all turret/missile users have still theys weapon ( ergo: dammage capability ) until ship pop. Drone ships are he only that risk to loose theyr weapons. I will not make maths, board is plenty of them, i will only keep clear that a drone ship must have many replacemnt, execially if ship hitpoints will be boosted ( longer battles == more time to kill drones ). If ( and i repeat "if" because i'm not convinced ) 5 heavy drones scary so much, ballance this ship reducing number of turrets. but have only 4 heavies it's ridicolous ... a drake will pop all drones in 15 secs ( 7 heavy lancher and a rof bonus? it's a "drone-popping fest" )and then the mirmidon id powerless. im stil convinced that the best loadout for this ship is: hi: 6, 4 turrets ( -2 hi slots, -1 turret ) med: 5 low: 6 ( +1 low slot) drone bay: 200m3 bonus 1: drone hitpoint & dammage bonus 2: armour rep bonus
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey Hurricane Description on the Hurricane "suggests its gonna be fast" its base speed is the same as the cyclone. I'd love and think that its base speed should be slightly improved to reflect this. 4x mids on a matari ship :/ i ws expecting a shield tanking Arty boat but its looking towards an auto cannon setup. Grid : Tried to get a 720mm setup acros the top and a semi decent armor tank in the lows and totally failed. ( and i have high skills) next trip will try autos as i suspect this will be more suited for. Looks : OMFG yeah it looks sexhey but doesnt fit matari style; however looks awesomely shagable. Drone bay needs a tweek. its smalller than the Cyclones and really should be bigger. Damage looks strong and the bonus fits matari designs but the balance between Tier II and Commands would then be out of whack. not convinced id buy one or if it will be effective PvE but if the base speed was tweeked and maybe a bonus to MWD or AB i think it would be pretty good PvP in a small roaming gank squad. TBH i much prefer the cyclone. CAP : yes i think the increased cap is spot on. Skill Req. Skill should req. BC 2 minimum. I know most will train ship skills to 3 min but 2 really should be required for a tier II ship. I'll flight test it some more, blow a few up, and tank test it till it breaks. Im not keen on it ( im 100% minmatar spec'ed ) but will keep an open mind atm. Please just shut up and leave my Hurricane alone. It's my (and a lot of other people's) dream ship. Just WHAT else do you want? No thanks for a shield tanking arty boat, but guess what. You can still make it. Oh and the ACs + tank capabilities of it are just sexy. Other than that, god forbid our dear Matari brothers and sisters could actually, you know, learn to make proper high tech ships now that some time has passed and there's the Republic etc. I find the tech progression of the race from the once slaves, trough the rebellion, up to today really interesting, i like how they progress from ships like the rupture, trough the likes of the Trasher and Cyclone, and then to the new BC, BS and capitals. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Originally by: Jim McGregor All the nodes are belong to us!
Pichemanu	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:15:00 - [37] The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. ******* buhuhu... *******
EvilNate Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:19:00 - [38] This might just be me, I love the hurricane, but I think it needs a slight speed increase, not much, maybe 5m/s or so, but otherwise it's perfect. Nate.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. 5 medium drones and 5 guns with no dmg bonus are BEYOND PATHETIC for a BC. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:32:00 - [40] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:51 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:10 Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. u ever used a dominix??????? or a vexor ? or an arbitrator? U know what u are ltalking about ?? if u are not competent of droneship dont post! They have space for a drone replacement. Not considering domi ( wich have a virtualy infinite space for drones... ), vexors and arbitrators have place for 1 wave and half of medium drones. so a ship like mirmidon ( average cost 7x of the vexor ) could not have only 2 waves of medium drones. A ship like that , with this speed and sig radius must have space for heavy drones, not mediums ( wich require 25m3 instrad of 10m3). give him space for 7,5 heavy drones ( as vexor have space for 7,5 medium drones) and i will be happy ( 7,5 x 25m3 == 187,5m3 i asked 200m3 not much difference ad u can see). think before posting ...

Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:49:00 - [41] Originally by: LC Sulla Why not give the Myrmidon the drone bay it needs and then restrict the drone bonuses to only light and medium drones (thus leaving the Domi as the heavy drone boat). Or perhaps 7.5% bonus to heavy drones, and 10% for meds and lights.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:51:00 - [42] Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. The brutix can field 5 medium drones, and 7 T2 medium blasters with a dual rep tank. The Myr certainly DOES need more drone space, or I'm never getting out the Brutix.
Pichemanu	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:51 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:10 Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. u ever used a dominix??????? or a vexor ? or an arbitrator? U know what u are ltalking about ?? if u are not competent of droneship dont post! They have space for a drone replacement. Not considering domi ( wich have a virtualy infinite space for drones... ), vexors and arbitrators have place for 1 wave and half of medium drones. so a ship like mirmidon ( average cost 7x of the vexor ) could not have only 2 waves of medium drones. A ship like that , with this speed and sig radius must have space for heavy drones, not mediums ( wich require 25m3 instrad of 10m3). give him space for 7,5 heavy drones ( as vexor have space for 7,5 medium drones) and i will be happy ( 7,5 x 25m3 == 187,5m3 i asked 200m3 not much difference ad u can see). think before posting ... Really now? It must have? A maller has 5 turrets, shurely a ship like the proph that costs ?x as much should have 12!!! Better yet it should be able to mount 5 tachyons !!11elevtyone!!ohnoestheendisnear!! Give me a break please. Drone ships do not put out the most dmg, they just have huge versatility. BTW i fly droneships, do u? I want a good ship, not an "iwin" button ship! ******* buhuhu... *******
Pichemanu	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:57:00 - [44] Edited by: Pichemanu on 26/10/2006 13:58:18 Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. The brutix can field 5 medium drones, and 7 T2 medium blasters with a dual rep tank. The Myr certainly DOES need more drone space, or I'm never getting out the Brutix. Then don't :) Stick to ur close range ship that dose moderate dmg at distance and be kyted by mymidons with rails and drones that have a bonus on them. Another variant would be that u get capdead by a myrm with 3/4 med nos, am curious what will power those 2 med reps and 7 balsters then. Oh and btw: a vexor can use 5 med drones, and a thorax can use 5 med drones and 5 t2 blasters. PLS have the vexor use 5 heavydrones or i will stick to my rax :))) (edit) Isn't this the same logic? ******* buhuhu... *******
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:00:00 - [45] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:06:41 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:03:21 Originally by: Pichemanu Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:51 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:10 Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. u ever used a dominix??????? or a vexor ? or an arbitrator? U know what u are ltalking about ?? if u are not competent of droneship dont post! They have space for a drone replacement. Not considering domi ( wich have a virtualy infinite space for drones... ), vexors and arbitrators have place for 1 wave and half of medium drones. so a ship like mirmidon ( average cost 7x of the vexor ) could not have only 2 waves of medium drones. A ship like that , with this speed and sig radius must have space for heavy drones, not mediums ( wich require 25m3 instrad of 10m3). give him space for 7,5 heavy drones ( as vexor have space for 7,5 medium drones) and i will be happy ( 7,5 x 25m3 == 187,5m3 i asked 200m3 not much difference ad u can see). think before posting ... Really now? It must have? A maller has 5 turrets, shurely a ship like the proph that costs ?x as much should have 12!!! Better yet it should be able to mount 5 tachyons !!11elevtyone!!ohnoestheendisnear!! Give me a break please. Drone ships do not put out the most dmg, they just have huge versatility. BTW i fly droneships, do u? I want a good ship, not an "iwin" button ship! what a crap of example .. 1) u cannot fit 5 beams in a maller.. u cannot even fit 5 heavy pulses. 2) heavy drone require 250%m3 of a medium but dont make 250% dammage. u cannot aply this to turret number. 3) i'm an ammar pilot as gallente .. i drive all amarr af, hacs and both command ships so dont think u can reduce this discussion in a "anti-amarr" thread. U simply have not a clue of how drones works. thats all. discuss something else u are competent.
Pichemanu	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:10:00 - [46] Edited by: Pichemanu on 26/10/2006 14:10:48 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum what a crap of example .. 1) u cannot fit 5 beams in a maller.. u cannot even fit 5 heavy pulses. 2) heavy drone require 250% of a medium but it's not 250% stronger. u cannot aply this to turret number. 3) i'm an ammar pilot ad a gallente .. i drive all amarr af, hac and both command ships so dont think u can reduce this discussion in a "anti-amarr" thread. U simply have not a clue of how drones works. thats all. I was not trying to reduce it to an "anti-amarr" thread, it was just an example (maybe not the best, i can come up with more :P ). What u fail to see is my point so i will try to bring it across again, more clearly i hope: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BUFFING THE MYRM, JUST LEAVE THE DRONES BAY AS IT IS. GIVE IT A HYBRID BONUS or soemthig. U can't expect a bc to be as good as a bs, just a bit less good that is.. If u want huge cruiser level dmg u use a thorax, if u want cruiser level versatility u use a vexor. If u want huge bc level dmg u use a brutix, if u want bc level versatility u use a myrm. What is so hard to understand? ******* buhuhu... *******
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:19:00 - [47] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:22:19 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:20:28 Originally by: Pichemanu Edited by: Pichemanu on 26/10/2006 14:10:48 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum what a crap of example .. 1) u cannot fit 5 beams in a maller.. u cannot even fit 5 heavy pulses. 2) heavy drone require 250% of a medium but it's not 250% stronger. u cannot aply this to turret number. 3) i'm an ammar pilot ad a gallente .. i drive all amarr af, hac and both command ships so dont think u can reduce this discussion in a "anti-amarr" thread. U simply have not a clue of how drones works. thats all. I was not trying to reduce it to an "anti-amarr" thread, it was just an example (maybe not the best, i can come up with more :P ). What u fail to see is my point so i will try to bring it across again, more clearly i hope: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BUFFING THE MYRM, JUST LEAVE THE DRONES BAY AS IT IS. GIVE IT A HYBRID BONUS or soemthig. U can't expect a bc to be as good as a bs, just a bit less good that is.. If u want huge cruiser level dmg u use a thorax, if u want cruiser level versatility u use a vexor. If u want huge bc level dmg u use a brutix, if u want bc level versatility u use a myrm. What is so hard to understand? again ... 1) give turret bonus mean have another brutix.. why have 2 ships identical? 2) give him ability to use 5 heavy drones dont make him even by far good as a domi. forget this. u seem scared by heavy drones too much , brobably because u have not idea how to counter them . heavy drones are slow, destrustable and simply dont make as much dammage to small ships. and a myrmidon will anyway be dead agaist a BS .. no chance. If u realy are woried about dps, consider that a single heavy drone more in space will not make this ship uber compared to other.. probably will not even reach the minmatar or amar new BC.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:26:00 - [48] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 14:26:42 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum 1) give turret bonus mean have another brutix.. why have 2 ships identical? Because all noncapital Gallente combat craft have a Small/Medium/Large Hybrid Bonus? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:33:00 - [49] Umm I'm not a drone user, so I might get flamed to hell for saying this...but We are talking about BattleCRUISERS, no? I fly a Ferox. And I dont have the slightest chance of fitting battleship sized weapons. Doesnt other BC's use cruiser weapons? Because a battlecruiser as I see it is a normal cruiser with a better tank. The myrmidon have one wave of heavy drones, the same type a battleship uses. Isnt meium drones supposed to be the cruiser sized drone? I dont get it... Now forgive me if I'm being ignorant and stupid Next, about the Caldari BC's The Ferox needs a boost, as almost all the caldari railboats do. I'm not too sure on how to do this though, as I havent used rails much. The Drake needs to rid itself of the resistance bonus. I mean, if we follow a pattern we see that all teh Caldari railboats have resistance bonus, while the missile ships lack it. Now I'm not too sure how to change it, but to give a kinetic missile damage boost will make its dps too high, and a range bonus would remove the major penalty of using asault rockets (I hate the name assault heavies ) So what should the resistance bonus be changed into? I really dont know, what would benefit it without overpowering it? All us Caldari wannabe-drake-pilots need to discuss this -JM
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 14:26:42 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum 1) give turret bonus mean have another brutix.. why have 2 ships identical? Because all noncapital Gallente combat craft have a Small/Medium/Large Hybrid Bonus? Another ***** answer. Nothing personal, realy, but even if what u wrote it's true, gallente are also drone specialist. And even if this should be not true, it's not a good reason to make 2 ships almost identical. As i told above: if there is a ballance problem have plenty of heavies then reduce even more turrets. I dont want a uber ship and i whink no one of us want a second brutix.

Razin	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Pichemanu Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:51 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:10 Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. u ever used a dominix??????? or a vexor ? or an arbitrator? U know what u are ltalking about ?? if u are not competent of droneship dont post! They have space for a drone replacement. Not considering domi ( wich have a virtualy infinite space for drones... ), vexors and arbitrators have place for 1 wave and half of medium drones. so a ship like mirmidon ( average cost 7x of the vexor ) could not have only 2 waves of medium drones. A ship like that , with this speed and sig radius must have space for heavy drones, not mediums ( wich require 25m3 instrad of 10m3). give him space for 7,5 heavy drones ( as vexor have space for 7,5 medium drones) and i will be happy ( 7,5 x 25m3 == 187,5m3 i asked 200m3 not much difference ad u can see). think before posting ... Really now? It must have? A maller has 5 turrets, shurely a ship like the proph that costs ?x as much should have 12!!! Better yet it should be able to mount 5 tachyons !!11elevtyone!!ohnoestheendisnear!! Give me a break please. Drone ships do not put out the most dmg, they just have huge versatility. BTW i fly droneships, do u? I want a good ship, not an "iwin" button ship! Dude, you're making a fool of yourself. Please stop. ...
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:41:00 - [52] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:42:06 Originally by: Jaedar Metron Umm I'm not a drone user, so I might get flamed to hell for saying this...but We are talking about BattleCRUISERS, no? I fly a Ferox. And I dont have the slightest chance of fitting battleship sized weapons. Doesnt other BC's use cruiser weapons? Because a battlecruiser as I see it is a normal cruiser with a better tank. The myrmidon have one wave of heavy drones, the same type a battleship uses. Isnt meium drones supposed to be the cruiser sized drone? I dont get it... Now forgive me if I'm being ignorant and stupid Next, about the Caldari BC's The Ferox needs a boost, as almost all the caldari railboats do. I'm not too sure on how to do this though, as I havent used rails much. The Drake needs to rid itself of the resistance bonus. I mean, if we follow a pattern we see that all teh Caldari railboats have resistance bonus, while the missile ships lack it. Now I'm not too sure how to change it, but to give a kinetic missile damage boost will make its dps too high, and a range bonus would remove the major penalty of using asault rockets (I hate the name assault heavies ) So what should the resistance bonus be changed into? I really dont know, what would benefit it without overpowering it? All us Caldari wannabe-drake-pilots need to discuss this Check on this forum about result of pvp tests ( in sisi ) of the myrmidon. Loose immediatly agaist other tier 2 BC, even if actually can already use 4 heavies. THis as hint, that heavy drones are not BS sized weapons only. increase drone bay will never make it uber because the DPS will raise just a bit ( 20% not considering turrets .. les than 10% if u have blasters), It will barelly reach other BC ( tier 2, not ferox...). hive him even a HUGE drone bay mean just that he can continue to use drones ( releasing new drones once some are death). p.s) i hope i answered your question
Wodin Drukvik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:43:00 - [53] Harbinger: Pretty much spot on with regard to the other Tier 2 BCs. If you fit for gank, your tank suffers fairly significantly. If you tank out, you can still do decent damage, but you can't fit big guns or a damage mod. You have the option of fitting a plate, or fitting dual reps which allows people to exercise their personal preference with regards to style. There's a good "sniper" setup using Heavy Beams. It's an excellent ship. I'd agree with those who suggest its cap might stand being a notch larger but that's really the only thing I'd consider changing. Myrmidon: There are a lot of different combinations, but it's fairly obvious they want to keep people from using 5 heavies. So the most you're going to get is the bay bumped to 120, which would allow for some spares and interesting combinations without giving it 5 heavies. Remember when you're kvetching about DPS that you have to include the 5 turrets - even unbonused that's a fair amount of damage over time. As far as fitting goes, it's somewhat tight, but respectable. Using the ship as a pure nos-boat precludes an injector, but you can create a reasonable injected double-rep tank supplemented by more nos than most others will use. The extra mid allows for a lot of dirty tricks, and a TD or other module(be it a second web to control range, a cap mod for sustainibility or something else) will significantly boost the survivability of the ship.
Akiman	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:44:00 - [54] You said tier 1 can tank better while tier II will damage better but thin tank...read again from the start ccp pls?... Thats not true...ferox is unusable...drake is better at everyway...but pls dont do something bad by modifying ferox u'll just disturb game balance again. About myrmidon i agree with the hoard plus leaving 6th med slot empty will just look amateur. 100m3 isnt enough thtas for sure and like u said myrmidon should out damage brutix.you sign for it.imo ship looks like maulus tho...ring any bells? And couse of bringing tier II matari Bc Tier III bs ingame dont change artilleries.Change ships... i dont know anything bout amarr... ships needs more different abilites... BUT we cant actualy know what is good or not till after nos, ecm ,hit point, ship,wcs,artillery changes in game.
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Jaedar Metron Umm I'm not a drone user, so I might get flamed to hell for saying this...but We are talking about BattleCRUISERS, no? I fly a Ferox. And I dont have the slightest chance of fitting battleship sized weapons. Doesnt other BC's use cruiser weapons? Because a battlecruiser as I see it is a normal cruiser with a better tank. The myrmidon have one wave of heavy drones, the same type a battleship uses. Isnt meium drones supposed to be the cruiser sized drone? I dont get it... Now forgive me if I'm being ignorant and stupid I forgive you. Ishtar is a heavy assault CRUISED and it can field 3 waves of heavy drones. ...
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:46:00 - [56] I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:54:00 - [57] By the way devs, is it the completely wrong place to ask for two more turrets on the Ferox? It really needs it. - What am I listening to?
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:00:00 - [58] Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete.
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:02:00 - [59] Just to add my voice to those who argue for a Myr drone bay size increase: With the increase in overall HP the fights will become longer and give more time and reason to kill of the drones first on a ship whose drone DPS is primary. I'm afraid that the HP increase may even cause arguments for a revision of other drone ship bay sizes. Myrmidon needs around 200 m3 drone bay. This will only marginally increase its DPS but give it battlefield longevity approaching that of turret ships. ...
Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:12:00 - [60] myr fix that makes sence drop drone damage bonus. Lower the base drone bay to 50. replace the bonus we too off for EOS drone bay bonus of +50 Drone bay Per level. (so ether 2 clips of heavys or 2 heavys and a couple clips of lights depending on BC 5 or 4) what this does: you do LESS Dps with drones but they are more flexable. also with the HP boost I'm not likeing the balance between reping damage and just plating now I look at the math and I just don't like it it takes quite a bit of time in a fight to rep the HP a 1600mm plate provides now, maybe a solution to this would be to change rep bonus and boost bonus on shield ships to give people even the option at passive tanking is make that bonus also apply to Plates and Shield Extenders

Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:15:00 - [61] Edited by: Jaedar Metron on 26/10/2006 15:17:40 Originally by: Karen Dark Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete. Keeping the Drake as it is will overpower it. I'm Caldari, I cant fly a bs yet, and I have no skillpoints in guns. I look forward to the drake extremely much, but to give it the rsist bonus only the railboats should have is wrong. The Ferox needs two more rails as an above poster noted (the other railboats need more rails as well, but maybe not 2. Dunno about t2 ships)and the drake needs to change its resistance bonus into something else (velocity is the best option so far, but as I said before, this would give it a bit better range on those heavy rockets, which is bad). When these two things is fixed they would be pretty balanced with eachother(and the rest of the tier 1's) :) uh... this is IMO :P -JM
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:16:00 - [62] I think people are over reacting with the drake. The main problem is the ships most people are comparing the drake to. The ferox and the nighthawk, two relatively crappy ships. The ferox is a gunboat and everyone uses it as a missleboat. imo, the ferox is quite weak compared to other BCs and to other gunboats. Removing its missle abilities and giving it 1-2 more turrets is what this ship badly needs. The nighthawk is the other ship I see it getting compared to by many. You HARDLY see people fly this ship now, and there is a good reason for that. It's been awhile since I looked up the stats and did calculations, but CURRENTLY(not kali patach) the nighthawk is 90% of the damage of the caldari HAC. The other races' CSs are like 150% of the damage of their respected HAC ship. Although the nighthawk will be getting a boost, I believe it is still the lowest dps CS of the 4 races. Furthermore, the drake does not outdamage the nighthawk and the nighthawk is a MUCH better tank than the drake.
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:21:00 - [63] Originally by: Karen Dark Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete. Actually, from what I've read, Tux said it was a typo that the bonus wasn't included. Personally, I'd prefer he leave it off and keep the Tier 2 BC's the way they are atm.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:22:00 - [64] Darpz, that would fix absolutely nothing. The Myrmidon is already behind in damage, it is arguable whether it's current damage level is appropriate or not. Your suggestion would have it's drone damage cut by 16.7% when using large drones and 33.3% when using small or medium drones. This is a step in exactly the wrong direction, not to mention a way too high price to pay for versatility. - What am I listening to?
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:22:00 - [65] Edited by: Jason Marshall on 26/10/2006 15:22:46 Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. Its a dedicated drone boat, it shouldnt have a turret bonus. I think it should have atleast a 175m3 drone bay. Its tank is fine. Who would use turrets on this thing? i see it has a NOS boat. It takes the most damage, and yet it dosnt deal enoguh, 5 medium drones arent gunna hold up long, there is no lasting power. You get one inty around and your day is ruined. edit - accidently typedi na quote box Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:24:00 - [66] Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight The nighthawk is the other ship I see it getting compared to by many. You HARDLY see people fly this ship now, and there is a good reason for that. It's been awhile since I looked up the stats and did calculations, but CURRENTLY(not kali patach) <snip> Discuss Kali patch stats, please, nothing else. - What am I listening to?
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:28:00 - [67] I'd agree that the devs had intended the Ferox to be a turret-based ship to begin with. That is where its bonuses lie, and that's currently where you can get the most DPS for the ship on Tranquility. I agree that it might need another turret slot or two, but if the devs would just leave the gang warfare bonus off of the Tier 2 battlecruisers, it would make the Tier 1 BC's very, very attractive in the new command heirarchy that gangs are being transformed into. If for bonuses from a commandship/Tier 1 BC are applied to simply the individual squadrons, rather than to a Wing or Fleet, they will still be in high, if not higher, demand.
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:28:00 - [68] Another possible solution would be moving one high slot to a low slot. Make it able to tank while the low-dps med drones kill the target.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:28:00 - [69] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. 'Same DPS as Dominix'. Really, Mr Exclamation Mark. What insight you have. My mistake, it should have been "Same drone DPS as a Dominix". And by the way, just because you got slapped about in the corporations and alliances forums doesn't mean you can act like a ***** in the other forums. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:32:00 - [70] A minor pointer: the core concept of battlecruisers is to use gang warfare modules. It's a class bonus, not a ship bonus. - What am I listening to?

Sirana Telor	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:39:00 - [71] Drones have several disadvantages: -Destructible -Cost -Delayed damage (need to fly to target first) and a few advantages: -Don't take up turrent space (tho in the Myr with only 5 turrets max comapred to 7-8 on all other tier 2 BCs that isn't really the case) -Don't take up fitting (tho it is accounted for when ships are designed, so it's relative - Hurricane has same CPU and 300 more grid for instance) -Can act independantly to a degree (this is also a curse sometimes) -Don't use cap (but then neither do arties or missiles) Now for the disadvantages to be balanced with the advantages... espeically with the destructible part! they need to do a sigificant amount of damage, personally I used to think it should raise the DPS above that of a pure turret ship. With the new different kinds of drones (ECM, Webbing), it adds more options so that may not be the case as much anymore. However since drone ships get NO bonuses to the new kinds of drones they are worse off when using them relative to other ships (since the bonus isn't a drones control bonus anymore). The destructible part makes a pure drones boat (remember, less turrets and no damage bonus) like the Myr very, very vulnerable unlike any other BC. There needs to be a balanced tradeoff for this vulnerability. Currently there is none. So to make the ship balanced there are a few options: 1. Give a doubling it's drone bonuses (including damage) 2. Keep the damage the same but increase the drone HP bonus to 3-5x the current amount (or 5-10x?) meaning the drones aren't nearly as vulnerable and it's more likely that opponents attack the ship instead of the drones 3. Double it's current drone bay to reduce the vulnerability, tho that still leaves it somewhat weak 4. Make it a mixed EW/Drone boat (change the second bonus) and increase the drone capacity less. I have little experience with SD tho, so I'm not sure how good that would really be. Anyway, right now it's the weakest BC out there and almost useless once the drones have been destroyed. Without drones a Vex with it's +25% damage bonus can hit just as hard as the Myr, while it has a smaller sig radius, is faster and a LOT cheaper...
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:42:00 - [72] Originally by: Sirana Telor Drones have several disadvantages: -Destructible -Cost -Delayed damage (need to fly to target first) and a few advantages: -Don't take up turrent space (tho in the Myr with only 5 turrets max comapred to 7-8 on all other tier 2 BCs that isn't really the case) -Don't take up fitting (tho it is accounted for when ships are designed, so it's relative - Hurricane has same CPU and 300 more grid for instance) -Can act independantly to a degree (this is also a curse sometimes) -Don't use cap (but then neither do arties or missiles) Now for the disadvantages to be balanced with the advantages... espeically with the destructible part! they need to do a sigificant amount of damage, personally I used to think it should raise the DPS above that of a pure turret ship. With the new different kinds of drones (ECM, Webbing), it adds more options so that may not be the case as much anymore. However since drone ships get NO bonuses to the new kinds of drones they are worse off when using them relative to other ships (since the bonus isn't a drones control bonus anymore). The destructible part makes a pure drones boat (remember, less turrets and no damage bonus) like the Myr very, very vulnerable unlike any other BC. There needs to be a balanced tradeoff for this vulnerability. Currently there is none. So to make the ship balanced there are a few options: 1. Give a doubling it's drone bonuses (including damage) 2. Keep the damage the same but increase the drone HP bonus to 3-5x the current amount (or 5-10x?) meaning the drones aren't nearly as vulnerable and it's more likely that opponents attack the ship instead of the drones 3. Double it's current drone bay to reduce the vulnerability, tho that still leaves it somewhat weak 4. Make it a mixed EW/Drone boat (change the second bonus) and increase the drone capacity less. I have little experience with SD tho, so I'm not sure how good that would really be. Anyway, right now it's the weakest BC out there and almost useless once the drones have been destroyed. Without drones a Vex with it's +25% damage bonus can hit just as hard as the Myr, while it has a smaller sig radius, is faster and a LOT cheaper... Right now witht the cost of Hammerhead II flyin a Myr and replacing destroyed drones would ve VERY expensive.
Firequill Gallente The Black Ops Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:03:00 - [73] Edited by: Firequill on 26/10/2006 16:05:22 Myrmidon: I dont agree to extending the dronebay. how about changing the drone bonus like this: "15%/20% to Scout drone damage and hitpoints per level" scout drones are still medium and light drones, right? wouldnt that bring 5 mediums to par with dps of 4 heavies and still give room for an extra flight? oh, and a 6th turret.. the model looks borked without it
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:11:00 - [74] Originally by: Firequill Edited by: Firequill on 26/10/2006 16:05:22 Myrmidon: I dont agree to extending the dronebay. how about changing the drone bonus like this: "15%/20% to Scout drone damage and hitpoints per level" scout drones are still medium and light drones, right? wouldnt that bring 5 mediums to par with dps of 4 heavies and still give room for an extra flight? oh, and a 6th turret.. the model looks borked without it Nope, it brings a full flight of medium drones 16.7% short of being on par with 4 heavy drones with a damage bonus. Seriously, messing around with drones in THAT way won't solve anything at all. It's not like it does a whopping lot of damage right now. It's all about psychology, I guess. They should nuke the word "heavy" from drones, it's not like they are worthy battleship weapons on their own. - What am I listening to?
Lydia Browm Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:16:00 - [75] OK simple, give it something in the region of 200m3 drone bay simply 1 Wave Heavy 1wave medium 1 wave small Any problems with that?? But wait medium drones completly anhilate things and stuff and with heavies you'll be doing the same damage as the Domi, NO NO NO NO domi has blasters use them. This ship has not the bonus to use the Blasters so either boost the current drone bonus to make it a drone boat or change the bonuses to 10% drone damage and survivability and give it anotehr bonus :) +25m3 drone bay [er level reduce its turrets to 0 give it more PG and make some nice drone dmage mods for the highs A lil bit wackey either keep the current bonuses and then make a mod that increase the survivability and / or damage of drones. ___________________________________________ Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty...
Sandzibarr A.W.M	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:24:00 - [76] Edited by: Sandzibarr on 26/10/2006 16:32:21 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Firequill Edited by: Firequill on 26/10/2006 16:05:22 Myrmidon: I dont agree to extending the dronebay. how about changing the drone bonus like this: "15%/20% to Scout drone damage and hitpoints per level" scout drones are still medium and light drones, right? wouldnt that bring 5 mediums to par with dps of 4 heavies and still give room for an extra flight? oh, and a 6th turret.. the model looks borked without it Nope, it brings a full flight of medium drones 16.7% short of being on par with 4 heavy drones with a damage bonus. Seriously, messing around with drones in THAT way won't solve anything at all. It's not like it does a whopping lot of damage right now. It's all about psychology, I guess. They should nuke the word "heavy" from drones, it's not like they are worthy battleship weapons on their own. Dunno.. has some merit. So max on 4 ogre2's is 380.6 dps. (with BC5) max on 5 hammer2's is 237.6 dps. if you did the 20% thing on meds/lights only - and gave it a 150m bay - youd get.. 316.8 dps for the 5 hammers - 3 waves 316.8 dps for the 5 ogres - 1 spare. not sure how it compares to the dps on other Tier2 BCs once you factor in the 5 turrets - but it gives it more lastabilty drone wise. what sort of overall dps we shooting for to keep the new tier2's in balance?
Kodiak31415 Imperial Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:27:00 - [77] What I've come up with so far is: The harbringer is awseome and ammar needed some love, no problem there. The hurricane is pretty good and will be a nice addition to the game. The drake is totally overpowered, can outank and outdps most, if not all, other BC's at the same time. The Myrmidon (in its current config) is never going to get used. If you want a big drone boat the domi is only like 15 mill more and has 3x+ the dronebay. The Vexor can do almost the same DPS as the myrmidon and costs much less. If ccp auctually wants anyone to use this ship it needs to be changed. I agree that 5 heavies would be overpowered so why not give a bonus to scouts only, or make the abality to reload your drone bay once a drone gets popped? When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong.
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:36:00 - [78] As far as the Drake goes I love the ship. Now to be honest and fair I can see dropping the resist bonus. It only makes sense. Now people are worried that giving it a missile damage bonus would give it crazy dps and that a missile velocity bonus would give thos HAM's crazy range. So I suggest giving it a MWD bonus. Maybe like 5% speed and 10% less cap use per lv or something like that. That way it at least has a chance. I mean heck with the range of the HAM's and the speed of 130 or 160 (I cant remember off the top of my head)without some serious webbing it will never get within range of anything. So it wont really matter how much DPS it can do or how fast it can fire. Remember this is just my opinion and a suggestion and thats what this forum is for.
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:38:00 - [79] Edited by: Blind Man on 26/10/2006 16:41:44 I'm just mad I spent a month training command ships 5 only to be flying *** t1 ships and also its pretty silly that the absolution and prophecy have the same HP? and harbinger has more hp than absolution? It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:45:00 - [80] Originally by: Kodiak31415 What I've come up with so far is: The harbringer is awseome and ammar needed some love, no problem there. The hurricane is pretty good and will be a nice addition to the game. The drake is totally overpowered, can outank and outdps most, if not all, other BC's at the same time. The Myrmidon (in its current config) is never going to get used. If you want a big drone boat the domi is only like 15 mill more and has 3x+ the dronebay. The Vexor can do almost the same DPS as the myrmidon and costs much less. If ccp auctually wants anyone to use this ship it needs to be changed. I agree that 5 heavies would be overpowered so why not give a bonus to scouts only, or make the abality to reload your drone bay once a drone gets popped? When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong. have you looked @ the other bc, they are nuts. They excel in everything they do. Superfast hard hitting or allways hitting high dps or heavy tankability+gank... A BC that will cost 40 mil and cant even field 1 wave of heavy drones is pathetic. I spend a mere 15 mil extra and get a bs that can field 3X heavy drones + far more nossing/tank power. This ship is screaming shoot my drones, shoot them please. What really saddens me is the fast that a mere vexor (4.8 mil vessel) can do the same dps as a ship that should be its bigger brother. If you want more tank for a small price go dominix and if you want same dps and spend 85% less, take a vexor... It all bowls down to 1 thing: Is it worth to you to have nearly the same dps as a 4.8 mil ship and have a 25m3 more dronebay for 36.2 mil extra? I dont think so. that said im gallente/minmatar specced and maxed out in bc skill. Im sure gonna be making sweet love to that mini bc Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________

Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:51:00 - [81] Originally by: madaluap If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay! Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc. It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. yes it is and oh quit it, every one knows that our ships (Gallente) rule!
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:55:00 - [82] Edited by: madaluap on 26/10/2006 16:55:20 Originally by: Galea Scorpii Originally by: madaluap If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay! Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc. It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. yes it is and oh quit it, every one knows that our ships (Gallente) rule! O realleh? There is no reason for gallente bc to have such a ****ty dronebay, thats basically all there is to say about it. There is no reason to realise a crap bc, just because "we" rule, i know gallente is FOTM atm, but i still know the times that my megathron died instantcapdeath, did less dps than a armageddon and could only be used for sniping. Im here to make this will never happens again Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. Oh but the Drake does need it's med and low slots. Shield tanking to make up for no shield res and any chance to resist/or be used as a pvp ship. Low slot? come on Caldari really suck in these anyway, take one and you might as well scrap the ship cause you wont be able to fit anything or sustain your defenses.. Keep it the same!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:58:00 - [84] Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei Edited by: Kapitanleutnant Mei on 26/10/2006 12:20:01 my suggestion is simple GANK not TANK DRAKE: replace 5% shield resist bonus with 10% missile velocity- this make it even more of a killing machine but a lot more vulnerable. It also makes sense for consitencies's sake and don't raise its dps any further which is important Myrmidon: (I'm less certain about these so they may suck) replace 10% drone damage bonus with +10M3 of drone bay per skill level - it can now use your 5 heavies but is more vulnerable replace armour rep bonus with 5% med hybrid damage per level, again this makes it more deadly but as we've removed the drone hitpoint damage bonus this helps offset that by ensuring its not totally fubared if it has to bring out its lights. I don't fly ammarr or minnie but from what i;ve seen they seem to work very well- the Ammarr one could possibly do with like 25 more grid just to ease its fitting but that's about it, the minnie one looks pure sex Shield resist is Caldari specific ship bonus, taking it away is like taking Gallente drone space or Damage for Amarr and Mimnmatar! Keep Caldari setup the same!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:02:00 - [85] Originally by: SexySexy Myrmidon : i wish +1 drone control per level Why not +5 while you're at it?
Iyanna Swift	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:04:00 - [86] My suggestion for the gallente tier 2 BC: 125 m3 drone bay Drone HP and damage bonus Armor rep bonus This gives the option for a full set of heavies for those who want DPS, but only with nothing else. It also allows 2 sets of meds and a set of lights, the waves of mediums with HP and damage bonuses last longer and are more effective, the lights could be backup or EW/logistics drones. Do not add a turret bonus, I've never though BCs should have amazing DPS (despite the BC description) and should be considered support craft. No turret bonus encourages gang mod highs and more creative use of high slots.... in a support way. Keeping the armor rep bonus makes up for the lack of offencive capability, letting it tank some but only to keep the support going. The brutix already excels with turrets, I think a more support oriented BC such as this could be great in small-med gang warefare, but makes it less useful in solo settings; something which the brutix is already good at.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:04:00 - [87] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:45 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:05 Also here a myrmidon consideration: As it is now sucks because it should be a drone ship but with this drone bay everyone will immediatly shot at his drones instead the ship living him unable to make damage ( ergo: is death). A drone ship MUST have a great replacement of drenes. COnsider that it's whe only weapon that can be popped in game .. all turret/missile users have still theys weapon ( ergo: dammage capability ) until ship pop. Drone ships are he only that risk to loose theyr weapons. I will not make maths, board is plenty of them, i will only keep clear that a drone ship must have many replacemnt, execially if ship hitpoints will be boosted ( longer battles == more time to kill drones ). If ( and i repeat "if" because i'm not convinced ) 5 heavy drones scary so much, ballance this ship reducing number of turrets. but have only 4 heavies it's ridicolous ... a drake will pop all drones in 15 secs ( 7 heavy lancher and a rof bonus? it's a "drone-popping fest" )and then the mirmidon id powerless. im stil convinced that the best loadout for this ship is: hi: 6, 4 turrets ( -2 hi slots, -1 turret ) med: 5 low: 6 ( +1 low slot) drone bay: 200m3 bonus 1: drone hitpoint & dammage bonus 2: armour rep bonus Drones only weapon/defense? Sure, same as ECM for the Scorpion, however I don't see another Med slot added to it, now do I ? How about making drone lock chance based to equal things a bit ???
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:06:00 - [88] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:45 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:05 Also here a myrmidon consideration: As it is now sucks because it should be a drone ship but with this drone bay everyone will immediatly shot at his drones instead the ship living him unable to make damage ( ergo: is death). A drone ship MUST have a great replacement of drenes. COnsider that it's whe only weapon that can be popped in game .. all turret/missile users have still theys weapon ( ergo: dammage capability ) until ship pop. Drone ships are he only that risk to loose theyr weapons. I will not make maths, board is plenty of them, i will only keep clear that a drone ship must have many replacemnt, execially if ship hitpoints will be boosted ( longer battles == more time to kill drones ). If ( and i repeat "if" because i'm not convinced ) 5 heavy drones scary so much, ballance this ship reducing number of turrets. but have only 4 heavies it's ridicolous ... a drake will pop all drones in 15 secs ( 7 heavy lancher and a rof bonus? it's a "drone-popping fest" )and then the mirmidon id powerless. im stil convinced that the best loadout for this ship is: hi: 6, 4 turrets ( -2 hi slots, -1 turret ) med: 5 low: 6 ( +1 low slot) drone bay: 200m3 bonus 1: drone hitpoint & dammage bonus 2: armour rep bonus A Drake will pop the drones in 15 sec... hahhaha.. do you realize how much is 15 seconds in PvP? in these 15 seconds, the Drake could be NOSed and blastered to death, not to mention the constant supply of med drones that the Myrm. pilot can provide! period!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:08:00 - [89] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. 5 medium drones and 5 guns with no dmg bonus are BEYOND PATHETIC for a BC. Is that you cannot pilot one properly? and you get 10 med drones.
Elara Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:13:00 - [90] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:22:19 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:20:28 Originally by: Pichemanu Edited by: Pichemanu on 26/10/2006 14:10:48 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum what a crap of example .. 1) u cannot fit 5 beams in a maller.. u cannot even fit 5 heavy pulses. 2) heavy drone require 250% of a medium but it's not 250% stronger. u cannot aply this to turret number. 3) i'm an ammar pilot ad a gallente .. i drive all amarr af, hac and both command ships so dont think u can reduce this discussion in a "anti-amarr" thread. U simply have not a clue of how drones works. thats all. I was not trying to reduce it to an "anti-amarr" thread, it was just an example (maybe not the best, i can come up with more :P ). What u fail to see is my point so i will try to bring it across again, more clearly i hope: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BUFFING THE MYRM, JUST LEAVE THE DRONES BAY AS IT IS. GIVE IT A HYBRID BONUS or soemthig. U can't expect a bc to be as good as a bs, just a bit less good that is.. If u want huge cruiser level dmg u use a thorax, if u want cruiser level versatility u use a vexor. If u want huge bc level dmg u use a brutix, if u want bc level versatility u use a myrm. What is so hard to understand? again ... 1) give turret bonus mean have another brutix.. why have 2 ships identical? 2) give him ability to use 5 heavy drones dont make him even by far good as a domi. forget this. u seem scared by heavy drones too much , brobably because u have not idea how to counter them . heavy drones are slow, destrustable and simply dont make as much dammage to small ships. and a myrmidon will anyway be dead agaist a BS .. no chance. If u realy are woried about dps, consider that a single heavy drone more in space will not make this ship uber compared to other.. probably will not even reach the minmatar or amar new BC. the problem hun, is that noone will use the T2 heavy drones as opposed to T2 meds just to have a constant supply of drones. Hence you don't need more drone space!

Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:16:00 - [91] Originally by: Jaedar Metron Umm I'm not a drone user, so I might get flamed to hell for saying this...but We are talking about BattleCRUISERS, no? I fly a Ferox. And I dont have the slightest chance of fitting battleship sized weapons. Doesnt other BC's use cruiser weapons? Because a battlecruiser as I see it is a normal cruiser with a better tank. The myrmidon have one wave of heavy drones, the same type a battleship uses. Isnt meium drones supposed to be the cruiser sized drone? I dont get it... Now forgive me if I'm being ignorant and stupid Next, about the Caldari BC's The Ferox needs a boost, as almost all the caldari railboats do. I'm not too sure on how to do this though, as I havent used rails much. The Drake needs to rid itself of the resistance bonus. I mean, if we follow a pattern we see that all teh Caldari railboats have resistance bonus, while the missile ships lack it. Now I'm not too sure how to change it, but to give a kinetic missile damage boost will make its dps too high, and a range bonus would remove the major penalty of using asault rockets (I hate the name assault heavies ) So what should the resistance bonus be changed into? I really dont know, what would benefit it without overpowering it? All us Caldari wannabe-drake-pilots need to discuss this The 5% shield res is needed in the Drake, look at the stats and realize that. If you want to fly a ferox, go ahead! Here! CCP isn't trying to make the other class obsolete.
Sathrai Unlimited Blade Works	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:20:00 - [92] Swap the armour repair bonus on the Myrmidon for a drone bay size bonus (really, anything from +5m3 to +25m3 per level would be good), and switch out the shield resist bonus on the Drake for a missile/explosion velocity bonus. I kinda like the idea of the explosion velocity bonus, myself - it's different from your usual Caldari missile boat, and it keeps the Drake as more of an in-close brawler as opposed to a classically Caldari standoff ship. The Harbringer and the Hurricane seem to be just about right, and are really excellent pieces of design work in both looks and performance.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:21:00 - [93] Originally by: Kodiak31415 What I've come up with so far is: The harbringer is awseome and ammar needed some love, no problem there. The hurricane is pretty good and will be a nice addition to the game. The drake is totally overpowered, can outank and outdps most, if not all, other BC's at the same time. The Myrmidon (in its current config) is never going to get used. If you want a big drone boat the domi is only like 15 mill more and has 3x+ the dronebay. The Vexor can do almost the same DPS as the myrmidon and costs much less. If ccp auctually wants anyone to use this ship it needs to be changed. I agree that 5 heavies would be overpowered so why not give a bonus to scouts only, or make the abality to reload your drone bay once a drone gets popped? When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong. Another alt aimed at FLAMING Caldari. Isn't anyone here see the USUAL GALLENTE WHINE of OOOHH GIVE ME MORE DRONE SPACE, F*** UP ALL OTHER SHIPS! Geez... this is crap, I hope the people at CCP acutally ignore such obvious and blatant WHINE fests!!! Next thing who knows the new BC for Gallente will have drone space as the Dominix with the damage and count drone bonuses to 15-20%.. Quote: "When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong..." Answer: Pot in very high quantities is bad for you! Stop while you have something left in your head that you can use, or is it too late!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:24:00 - [94] Originally by: Jaedar Metron Edited by: Jaedar Metron on 26/10/2006 15:17:40 Originally by: Karen Dark Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete. Keeping the Drake as it is will overpower it. I'm Caldari, I cant fly a bs yet, and I have no skillpoints in guns. I look forward to the drake extremely much, but to give it the rsist bonus only the railboats should have is wrong. The Ferox needs two more rails as an above poster noted (the other railboats need more rails as well, but maybe not 2. Dunno about t2 ships)and the drake needs to change its resistance bonus into something else (velocity is the best option so far, but as I said before, this would give it a bit better range on those heavy rockets, which is bad). When these two things is fixed they would be pretty balanced with eachother(and the rest of the tier 1's) :) uh... this is IMO :P You want more rails? more guns? there are "only" 3 other races where you can swim in guns.. hey lets make Caldari all gunnery too.. who needs variety! Get to a BS class and fly the Rokh, there is your solution! or buy an Eagle.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:28:00 - [95] Originally by: Karen Dark As far as the Drake goes I love the ship. Now to be honest and fair I can see dropping the resist bonus. It only makes sense. Now people are worried that giving it a missile damage bonus would give it crazy dps and that a missile velocity bonus would give thos HAM's crazy range. So I suggest giving it a MWD bonus. Maybe like 5% speed and 10% less cap use per lv or something like that. That way it at least has a chance. I mean heck with the range of the HAM's and the speed of 130 or 160 (I cant remember off the top of my head)without some serious webbing it will never get within range of anything. So it wont really matter how much DPS it can do or how fast it can fire. Remember this is just my opinion and a suggestion and thats what this forum is for. A MWD on a misile ship? You apparently can't fly one. Drop resistances for a MWD.. lol, anyone who ACTUALLY fly caldari see any problem ?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:34:00 - [96] Originally by: Old Geeza Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. How about you use yours and tell me how 5 heavy + 5 med hybrids with no damage bonus equals the DPS of 5 heavy drone + 6 large hybrid with +5% per level damage bonus, eh? The Myrmidon is gimped at the moment, with only 4 heavies and no gun damage bonus, it's below the dps of the other tier2 bcs, not to mention that it's ridiculously easy to kill the drones with Kali longer combat times => even that firepower is removed. It needs enough drone bay to field 5 heavies and carry a few spares.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:39:00 - [97] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. 5 medium drones and 5 guns with no dmg bonus are BEYOND PATHETIC for a BC. Exactly. The Myrmidon needs to use heavies to even approach the dps of the other tier2 battlecruisers.
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:45:00 - [98] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Karen Dark As far as the Drake goes I love the ship. Now to be honest and fair I can see dropping the resist bonus. It only makes sense. Now people are worried that giving it a missile damage bonus would give it crazy dps and that a missile velocity bonus would give thos HAM's crazy range. So I suggest giving it a MWD bonus. Maybe like 5% speed and 10% less cap use per lv or something like that. That way it at least has a chance. I mean heck with the range of the HAM's and the speed of 130 or 160 (I cant remember off the top of my head)without some serious webbing it will never get within range of anything. So it wont really matter how much DPS it can do or how fast it can fire. Remember this is just my opinion and a suggestion and thats what this forum is for. A MWD on a misile ship? You apparently can't fly one. Drop resistances for a MWD.. lol, anyone who ACTUALLY fly caldari see any problem ? First yes i fly Caldari and almost nothing else. Second why not put a MWD on a missile ship? So a MWD gives you a big sig it doesnt matter what weapons you are useing. The heavy assault missiles have fight time of 2 seconds base. Heck all someone has to do is orbit you at 10-11ks and wear you down cause you wont catch them and you wont be able to run cuz they will have scramed you to death. Once agin this was an IDEA nothing more.Thanks for being a asshat and contributing nothing useful to this thread.
Majickthise	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:46:00 - [99] 6/6/5 layout - 6 turrets 200m drone bay and 5% damp effectiveness per BC level flame away
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Old Geeza My mistake, it should have been "Same drone DPS as a Dominix". And by the way, just because you got slapped about in the corporations and alliances forums doesn't mean you can act like a ***** in the other forums. And why exactly would the same drone DPS be a problem, when the Domi can have 6 large blasters with a nice damage bonus to call upon? Regarding 'slapped about'... its always good fun being smacked by BoB when you have spoiled their circle jerk with some reasoned arguements. Judging from the quality of your own posts on here, I will assume you are one of their alts.

Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:50:00 - [101] Just so it's clear, if drones are out of the picture the Hurricane and the Harbringer both out-damage a Drake. Just using the raw numbers from the game, I was getting about 200 DPS from the Drake using T1 heavy assault launchers, while getting 300 DPS with both the harbringer and hurricane using their racial-specific T1 guns as well. Adding drones into the picture might skew it, but just using the fitted weapons that the ships are geared for, the other two ships outdamage a Drake. So, please, stop saying that the Drake does massive amounts more than the others.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:59:00 - [102] Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 17:59:45 Originally by: Pichemanu Then don't :) Stick to ur close range ship that dose moderate dmg at distance and be kyted by mymidons with rails and drones that have a bonus on them. Another variant would be that u get capdead by a myrm with 3/4 med nos, am curious what will power those 2 med reps and 7 balsters then. Oh and btw: a vexor can use 5 med drones, and a thorax can use 5 med drones and 5 t2 blasters. PLS have the vexor use 5 heavydrones or i will stick to my rax :))) (edit) Isn't this the same logic? Regarding Mrymidon V Brutix... A blaster Brutix with 5 medium drones does not do 'moderate damage'. It kicks out fantastic damage, over 700 DPS in fact, more than any other battlecruiser and indeed many battleships. Also, exactly what threat will a rail ship be? If its too far out, I warp away, if its close, I would MWD up to him, and crush him. There is no way a competent blaster Brutix pilot would lose to a Myrm as it currently is. The drones would die in seconds, and the Myrm shortly afterwards. Nos won't make any difference, as if you fit Nos and rely on drones, well once the drones are gone and your DPS is zero, what are you going to do? The Brutix will cap inject, and a few seconds of 700 DPS later the salvage ship will be poking at your wreckage. Thats why you need a second wave of drones.
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:48:00 - [103] Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 18:48:01 Hell, without a turret damage bonus, I don't think asking for a 3rd wave would be out of line. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:49:00 - [104] Originally by: Calculon Just so it's clear, if drones are out of the picture the Hurricane and the Harbringer both out-damage a Drake. Just using the raw numbers from the game, I was getting about 200 DPS from the Drake using T1 heavy assault launchers, while getting 300 DPS with both the harbringer and hurricane using their racial-specific T1 guns as well. Adding drones into the picture might skew it, but just using the fitted weapons that the ships are geared for, the other two ships outdamage a Drake. So, please, stop saying that the Drake does massive amounts more than the others. 200 dps is about what i got in the Drake using 2 T2 BCU and "arby" heavy launchers and a damage rig.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:01:00 - [105] You must be doing something wrong then, it tops out at about 400-450 with heavies. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:15:00 - [106] Originally by: keepiru You must be doing something wrong then, it tops out at about 400-450 with heavies. Well I was shooting frigs so that might of been it
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:20:00 - [107] Originally by: Karen Dark A MWD on a misile ship? You apparently can't fly one. Drop resistances for a MWD.. lol, anyone who ACTUALLY fly caldari see any problem ? First yes i fly Caldari and almost nothing else. Second why not put a MWD on a missile ship? So a MWD gives you a big sig it doesnt matter what weapons you are useing. The heavy assault missiles have fight time of 2 seconds base. Heck all someone has to do is orbit you at 10-11ks and wear you down cause you wont catch them and you wont be able to run cuz they will have scramed you to death. Once agin this was an IDEA nothing more.Thanks for being a asshat and contributing nothing useful to this thread. Karen, if you're refering to standard misiles I believe the base is approx. 35km of range, and in a smaller ship that you usually have standards fitted, range isn't so much of a problem. As for the BC class, it uses exclusively Heavy Misiles, which with skills and all are good to at least 60+ km not to mention up to 70-80km. So I really think this idea on your end is a bad one, and it will not have any implications in the game. It certainly has very limited application on a caldari ship anyway. MWD is used primarily on a short ranged high damage ships to get quickly to target. Caldari doesn't have 1 ship that is good at that, especially not their misile based BC! 5% resistance is a much more viable bonus and one that can be of use!
Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:22:00 - [108] Originally by: Calculon Just so it's clear, if drones are out of the picture the Hurricane and the Harbringer both out-damage a Drake. Just using the raw numbers from the game, I was getting about 200 DPS from the Drake using T1 heavy assault launchers, while getting 300 DPS with both the harbringer and hurricane using their racial-specific T1 guns as well. Adding drones into the picture might skew it, but just using the fitted weapons that the ships are geared for, the other two ships outdamage a Drake. So, please, stop saying that the Drake does massive amounts more than the others. Exactly, the ship is if anything good as is! people just feel more comfortable putting down other race's ship, in this case Caldari!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:23:00 - [109] Originally by: Centurin Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 18:48:01 Hell, without a turret damage bonus, I don't think asking for a 3rd wave would be out of line. How bout a Tsunami of Drones.. that would suit everyone's taste, now wouldn't it.. lol
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:36:00 - [110] Originally by: keepiru You must be doing something wrong then, it tops out at about 400-450 with heavies. Keepiru, I was using the raw DPS from the missiles and launchers while fitted with two BCU II's. The damage from the heavy assault missiles was in the low 200's, not anywhere near 400-450, although I clearly stated that I wasn't factoring drones into the equation either. As it stands, a Hurricane and a Harbringer both out DPS the Drake by about 100dps using the same number of damage mods and using T1 guns/launchers and removing drones from the equation.

Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:40:00 - [111] Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:45:00 - [112] Originally by: Centurin Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. Dude, my freaking Battleship, the oh so powerful according to the Gallente Raven can fit only 3 Heavies. You want to have 5+ in your BC? Gun bonuses or not, come on!
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:49:00 - [113] Believe it or not, Gun bonuses make all the difference. If I can do as much damage in my Vexor as the Myrmidon, something is wrong. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:50:00 - [114] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Jaedar Metron Edited by: Jaedar Metron on 26/10/2006 15:17:40 Originally by: Karen Dark Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete. Keeping the Drake as it is will overpower it. I'm Caldari, I cant fly a bs yet, and I have no skillpoints in guns. I look forward to the drake extremely much, but to give it the rsist bonus only the railboats should have is wrong. The Ferox needs two more rails as an above poster noted (the other railboats need more rails as well, but maybe not 2. Dunno about t2 ships)and the drake needs to change its resistance bonus into something else (velocity is the best option so far, but as I said before, this would give it a bit better range on those heavy rockets, which is bad). When these two things is fixed they would be pretty balanced with eachother(and the rest of the tier 1's) :) uh... this is IMO :P You want more rails? more guns? there are "only" 3 other races where you can swim in guns.. hey lets make Caldari all gunnery too.. who needs variety! Get to a BS class and fly the Rokh, there is your solution! or buy an Eagle. OK ok, no need to flame me, I was under the impression Drake had more dps than other BC's and was overpowered. I guess I let the whines get through to me... I dont want to swim in guns, I use missiles and missiles only, and am really looking forward to the drake I just felt that resistance bonus belonged to rail ships, as thats teh pattern through all Caldari ships. What I really dont want to see, is ccp removing the rof bonus. So IF ccp decides that the Drake shall be again another unusable solo pvp ship in the Caldari lineup, I would much rather see the resistance bonus go than the rof bonus, kk? Of course, if its true that it isnt overpowered, then I'm all for the current Drake, although I still think the resistnace is kind of misplaced in the history of Caldari ships -JM
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:58:00 - [115] Originally by: Jaedar Metron OK ok, no need to flame me, I was under the impression Drake had more dps than other BC's and was overpowered. I guess I let the whines get through to me... I dont want to swim in guns, I use missiles and missiles only, and am really looking forward to the drake I just felt that resistance bonus belonged to rail ships, as thats teh pattern through all Caldari ships. What I really dont want to see, is ccp removing the rof bonus. So IF ccp decides that the Drake shall be again another unusable solo pvp ship in the Caldari lineup, I would much rather see the resistance bonus go than the rof bonus, kk? Of course, if its true that it isnt overpowered, then I'm all for the current Drake, although I still think the resistnace is kind of misplaced in the history of Caldari ships Not overpowered, at best equal. As for the history of resistances, Merlin (half guns half misiles), Moa, Ferox and Nighthawk all have Resistance bonuses. The Raven is the only one that has a ROF bonus for misiles, and no res bonuses. not to mention the other cruisers, as their bonuses vary for their specializations...
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:00:00 - [116] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. Dude, my freaking Battleship, the oh so powerful according to the Gallente Raven can fit only 3 Heavies. You want to have 5+ in your BC? Gun bonuses or not, come on! So... er... are you saying the Myrmidon should have 6 siege missile launchers with a rate of fire bonus. Or what are you trying to say, really? - What am I listening to?
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:01:00 - [117] Most of the whining about the Drake was coming from the misprinted 225 damage per rage heavy assault missile, instead of the 125 that it is actually supposed to be (both base damage, not including skills). At least, that's what I've seen. Having flown all four Tier 2 BC's on the test server now, none of them really overpower the others now that people are actually experimenting with worthwhile fittings. The exception to the rule is the Myrmidon, it really does need a bit of love still. I don't know what the longterm solution for the ship will be, but everytime I've PvPed against it on Test so far I've destroyed the drones right off the bat in my Hurricane, Harbringer, or Drake, and then laughed at the defenseless BC in front of me. The only one of the new BC's that really has anything to fear from the Myrmidon is the Harbringer, simply because it is so cap-reliant. I firmly belive that the Myrmidon needs SOME sort of loving, but I'm not really in a position to suggest anything at this point in time. And for those of you who think that the Drake having a bonus to resistances is so out of place, remember that this is an evolving EVE. We've already seen three other non-turret ships come out from the Caldari manufacturing lines that have this bonus: the Nighthawk, the Chimera, and the Wyvern. Sure one is T2, but the other two are very much T1, and would represent the current direction that new Caldari tech is headed in. Stronger, harder shields for all of their ships, not just the few of them that currently use turrets.
Kapitanleutnant Mei	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:02:00 - [118] Edited by: Kapitanleutnant Mei on 26/10/2006 20:02:26 the sheer arrogance of the gallente people here who think that just because their BC isn't easily owning everyone else as they've become used to it need to be boosted is amazing. gallente already have ther uber damage BC they got it in the brutix after this you'll be the only race with 2 used BC's. the drone BC is supposed to be a bit different. 3 NOS and 5 turrets gives an evil tank and when combined with 5 medium drones a fair bit of DPS. I think the suggestion about changing the damage bonus to something slightly higher (say 15%) and it only applying to scout drones is a decent suggestion .- all the whining for a 250m3 drone bay is not.(unless you want to drop 3 highs for it). anyway onto what i actually wanted to talk about- the drake. I can clearly see the problem with the second boni on the drake-5% kinetic missile damage makes it too damaging and the 10% missile velocity in theory takes away the main disadvantage of heavy assault missiles. HOWEVER this is already taken away by the use of javlin missile which for only a 10% damage reduction (and a near irrelevant speed nerf) can hit out an insane distance. therefore i'd say 10% missile velocity is a pretty fair option. Also I'd like to point out that rigs will make a MASSIVE difference to all of these ships and they will have been designed with that in mind- is there by any chance a drone bay rig?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:03:00 - [119] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. Dude, my freaking Battleship, the oh so powerful according to the Gallente Raven can fit only 3 Heavies. You want to have 5+ in your BC? Gun bonuses or not, come on! Either you're trolling or you're clueless. Drones are a (far far) secondary weapon on your Raven, on the Mymidon they are the primary weapon. And with no gon bonus, they are effectively the only real weapon. With only medium drones, the Myrmidon has the DPS of a Vexor (that's the Gallente t1 drone cruiser, in case your lack of clue extends to non-Caldari ships in general). With 4 heavy drones, it loses against all the other tier2 battlecruisers. This has already been tested on sisi, by multiple people. With 5 heavy drones it might be even -- but even then, it need space for spare drones.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:10:00 - [120] Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei the sheer arrogance of the gallente people here who think that just because their BC isn't easily owning everyone else as they've become used to it need to be boosted is amazing. Please crawl back under your rock. All we're asking for is that the new Gallente BC be on par with the rest of the tier2's. Numerous tests show that at the moment it isn't, it needs some help. It's that simple. Remember that with the ECM nerf, the days of the ECM drone boats is over. You're not going to see ECM Myrmidons (or ECM Doms, for that matter). That whole ship type got a (much needed) nerf.

Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:17:00 - [121] use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:17:00 - [122] Woot then I give :D If the some of the newer t1 ships have resistance bonuses then I'm all for the Drake as it is now -JM
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:28:00 - [123] By the way, having read through some of these replies with the suggestions to the Myrmidon, I honestly believe that reducing the drone hit points and damage bonus to 7.5% from the 10% and increasing the drone bay size siginificantly is the way to go with this ship. Let's face it, any ship that is supposed to be a drone ship needs to be designed so that the ship can store multiple copies of its primary weapon. Think of the drone bay as the cargohold on any other ship and think of the drones as your ammo. shrug It makes sense to be able to restock your damage out in space on the fly, and not have to worry about instantly losing should your first 4 drones get popped. This would keep the DPS for the myrmidon the same (which admittedly I believe is a little low, but I'm trying to "play within the rules here"), while allowing for multiple ways of drones to keep the ship alive in a hostile environment. Right now all the opponent has to do is kill 4 drones and then have fun with the defenseless ship.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:29:00 - [124] Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? - What am I listening to?
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:32:00 - [125] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:48:00 - [126] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 20:11:29 Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. I am neither friend. May I ask what will you be fitting all these high slots with? hot air? How about if you fit them with Enough NOS to make my shield boosting an idea, while your drones be it 4 drop me in less than a minute? If you want a WAVE, or a replenishment of drones, who said your BC is supposed to have heavies? you can do a very good damage in medium T2 drones? Maybe now you will complain that they will come pretty expensive to support and fit.. oh well.. read the post above of the person that was following the logic that gallente will finally have some challenge when flying a ship. that's not bad, use your oh so uber skills and tactics to prevail instead of calling people incompetent. If you're are a competent yourself you would love a challenge. Either you're trolling or you're clueless. Drones are a (far far) secondary weapon on your Raven, on the Mymidon they are the primary weapon. And with no gun bonus, they are effectively the only real weapon. With only medium drones, the Myrmidon has the DPS of a Vexor (that's the Gallente t1 drone cruiser, in case your lack of clue extends to non-Caldari ships in general). With 4 heavy drones, it loses against all the other tier2 battlecruisers. This has already been tested on sisi, by multiple people. With 5 heavy drones it might be even -- but even then, it need space for spare drones. I am neither friend. Please take your time to refer to couple of post up, where a person was expressing their dislike of Gallente pilots who facing an actual challenge in game start whining. This is exactly what you are doing. After all this whining and sobbing a person would simply ask you how much drone space is enough to shut you up. I guess you will smile of contempt then wouldn't you.. well buddy, I guess you will have to face a challenge, cause these ship designes aren't changing.. welcome to the Eve the way other races see it! An interesting challenge!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:52:00 - [127] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei the sheer arrogance of the gallente people here who think that just because their BC isn't easily owning everyone else as they've become used to it need to be boosted is amazing. Please crawl back under your rock. All we're asking for is that the new Gallente BC be on par with the rest of the tier2's. Numerous tests show that at the moment it isn't, it needs some help. It's that simple. Remember that with the ECM nerf, the days of the ECM drone boats is over. You're not going to see ECM Myrmidons (or ECM Doms, for that matter). That whole ship type got a (much needed) nerf. As we shouldn't see ECM Dominixes! Period. It's a caldari EW warfare of choice among all races and only 3 specialized ships get bonuses to use them. I guess you will finally be challenged to think but hey why do that, instead start whining to get more ship bonuses, cause Gallente ships never seem to be at par hhuh.. I guess it's a conspiracy against your avatars or something.. go figure... Oh and keep the flames coming, I like char-broiled meat!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:54:00 - [128] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:55:00 - [129] You sir, are a troll. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:59:00 - [130] Originally by: Centurin You sir, are a troll. And you sir an an elf! Just because someone finally is challenging Gallente and doesn't want to listen to your continuous sobbing and wining on the forums that you are all so worse than the other races, doesn't mean they are here to stall everything. Just stop whining, you've got enough from doing so already!

murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:01:00 - [131] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP PvP w/ Kali is measured in minutes, not seconds. With the Hurricane I can web/kill all 4 heavies before I'm into half armor, and this is assuming I get into range of the Myrmidon's guns, which if you're smart, you won't for the first part of the fight. AFTER you've killed it's drones, THEN you move in and kill it. It's such a simple concept, even a monkey could do it. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:05:00 - [132] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP PvP w/ Kali is measured in minutes, not seconds. With the Hurricane I can web/kill all 4 heavies before I'm into half armor, and this is assuming I get into range of the Myrmidon's guns, which if you're smart, you won't for the first part of the fight. AFTER you've killed it's drones, THEN you move in and kill it. It's such a simple concept, even a monkey could do it. Lol, if a Myrmidon pilot lets you escape his guns, then he isn't doing something right. Even if that's the case why wouldn't he simply quit a losing battle, since apparently he and apparently you are out of range? I guess there's more than 1 way to do a monkey business. You have 1 battle and that should really convince everyone of a ships abilities? Hardly so m8, there are much more creative people in this game than what you're making the eve players out to be...
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:10:00 - [133] Maybe you should fly the ship first before accusing us of whining. We have all made good arguments for an increased drone bay and all I see you doing is trolling. Please explain to me in a constructive matter why the Myrmidon should remain as is. Have you flown it on the test server? Do you believe that it shouldn't outdamage a cruiser? Please enlighten me. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
solarwinds Minmatar Isotope Laboratories Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:14:00 - [134] Originally by: EvilNate This might just be me, I love the hurricane, but I think it needs a slight speed increase, not much, maybe 50 m/s or so, but otherwise it's perfect. Nate. Fixed. __________ Your wife's B!tch Slap strikes you perfectly, wrecking for a lifetime of pain and misery...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:22:00 - [135] Originally by: Centurin Maybe you should fly the ship first before accusing us of whining. We have all made good arguments for an increased drone bay and all I see you doing is trolling. Please explain to me in a constructive matter why the Myrmidon should remain as is. Have you flown it on the test server? Do you believe that it shouldn't outdamage a cruiser? Please enlighten me. Yes I have flown it and yes I have tested that on the server. The fact that it IN YOUR OPINION underpowered compared to your cruiser, is very VERY doubtful. If you're getting so much DPS from your cruiser, maybe we should revise the latter as well.. What do you think? And please, do actually think before you call people trolls, or any other sort of mystical creatures.. albeit it might aggravate you this is not WOW..
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:27:00 - [136] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:32:07 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:30:31 Originally by: Black Scorpio As we shouldn't see ECM Dominixes! Period. It's a caldari EW warfare of choice among all races and only 3 specialized ships get bonuses to use them. I guess you will finally be challenged to think but hey why do that, instead start whining to get more ship bonuses, cause Gallente ships never seem to be at par hhuh.. I guess it's a conspiracy against your avatars or something.. go figure... How about you go away and stop trolling this otherwise pretty constructive discussion about the new BCs. This is a Kali feedback thread, not your personal amusement ride. (and I'm not sure if you realize that I also hate ECM Doms and other ship fittings caused by the broken state of ECM on traquility, which will be fixed by Kali).
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:30:00 - [137] No ones asking for the Myrmidon to be the epitome of ownage. But when you pay 50 mil for a drone battlecruiser, you would think it could outdamage a Vexor. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:34:00 - [138] Originally by: Imode No ones asking for the Myrmidon to be the epitome of ownage. But when you pay 50 mil for a drone battlecruiser, you would think it could outdamage a Vexor. the prices will certainly adjust once the hype of the "I must have that shiny new ship" settles. maybe not, well see..
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:36:00 - [139] Not really as the price is governed by the average market price of minerals, of which the tier 2's use a great quantity of. Nearly double the Zydrine I believe. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:38:00 - [140] meh.. lemme add something to make the topic more flammable. taken from the myrmidon thread below: Originally by: Grimpak ok so how about this: reduce to 6 hislots (6 turrets) give more lows and meds increase drone bay change bonus to: +5% hybrid damage per level +1 scout/medium drone control per level reasoning? the myrmidon becomes a unique drone ship. it is not a vexor, since it dishes more damage than him. it is not a domi since it gives out more drones. instead of giving a dmg bonus, why not increasing the ship's ability to field drones? reasoning behind such idea? if battlecruisers field more guns cruiser-sized guns than cruisers themselves, why not make a battlecruiser drone carrier that can field MORE cruiser-sized drones? ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:38:00 - [141] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:32:07 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:30:31 Originally by: Black Scorpio As we shouldn't see ECM Dominixes! Period. It's a caldari EW warfare of choice among all races and only 3 specialized ships get bonuses to use them. I guess you will finally be challenged to think but hey why do that, instead start whining to get more ship bonuses, cause Gallente ships never seem to be at par hhuh.. I guess it's a conspiracy against your avatars or something.. go figure... How about you go away and stop trolling this otherwise pretty constructive discussion about the new BCs. This is a Kali feedback thread, not your personal amusement ride. (and I'm not sure if you realize that I also hate ECM Doms and other ship fittings caused by the broken state of ECM on traquility, which will be fixed by Kali). Well good on the second part of your post. As for the first, I am sorry to disappoint you, but countless whining exclusively by apparently gallente pilots does not seem at the least bit constructive for me. It's the same whine as usual. How come there is really no other race's pilot here rambling about oh my ship is so underpowered, where's my Win button! I guess, this seems pretty constructive to you however. I feel obliged to put an end to the whining madness. You call me troll? Funny you don't call that the 10000 Gallente pilots whining to get 10000000 drone space or at least pliiiizzz at least one more heavy drone, oh, it's not going to make this ship uber, come on pliiizzzz.. what is this? I tell you what it's not, it is not productive!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:42:00 - [142] Originally by: Black Scorpio Yes I have flown it and yes I have tested that on the server. The fact that it IN YOUR OPINION underpowered compared to your cruiser, is very VERY doubtful. If you're getting so much DPS from your cruiser, maybe we should revise the latter as well.. Ok, I assume English isn't your first language, so I won't attack your writing too much -- but you're not being very clear here. Fact: Myrmidon with medium drones has pretty much the same DPS as a Vexor. The Vexor gets -1 turret, but gets a +5% per level damage bonus to guns. Those pretty much balance out with the Myrmidon's 5 guns with no bonuses. The drone DPS is exactly the same. And in case you're wondering, the DPS that we're talking about is t1 cruiser class, not tier2 BC class. A Myrmidon using medium drones would get annihilated by the other tier2 BCs. A Myrmidon using 4 heavy drones will still get killed, but in this case it's because the drones die easily and after that the dps is laughable. The ship needs help. Want to prove us wrong? So to sisi and build and Myrmidon fitting that can perform on equal footing against the other tier2 BCs. Then come back and talk.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:43:00 - [143] Originally by: Grimpak meh.. lemme add something to make the topic more flammable. taken from the myrmidon thread below: Originally by: Grimpak ok so how about this: reduce to 6 hislots (6 turrets) give more lows and meds increase drone bay change bonus to: +5% hybrid damage per level +1 scout/medium drone control per level reasoning? the myrmidon becomes a unique drone ship. it is not a vexor, since it dishes more damage than him. it is not a domi since it gives out more drones. instead of giving a dmg bonus, why not increasing the ship's ability to field drones? reasoning behind such idea? if battlecruisers field more guns cruiser-sized guns than cruisers themselves, why not make a battlecruiser drone carrier that can field MORE cruiser-sized drones? So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:43:00 - [144] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:45:23 Originally by: Black Scorpio the prices will certainly adjust once the hype of the "I must have that shiny new ship" settles. maybe not, well see.. Ok, that comment proves it: you either know nothing about the game or you're trolling. Which is it? (hint: t1 market prices are governed by mineral costs)
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:47:00 - [145] Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? I think that would be overpowered, but I haven't done the DPS calculations so not sure. It sounds overpowered. The last thing I want is an overpowered ship. I want a BC that is on equal footing with the others, dammit, nothing more nothing less.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:51:00 - [146] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? 600dps from drones would shut me up, yes. It'd also make a kick ass forward observer for a carrier... Here you go, one happy brother! Hey CCP, open those Christmas bags a bit earlier and start handing out drone space, it makes Gallente happy, and there's nothing better on a forum than seeing Gallente not whine! Yaayyyy !!! Cheers!
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:53:00 - [147] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? I think that would be overpowered, but I haven't done the DPS calculations so not sure. It sounds overpowered. The last thing I want is an overpowered ship. I want a BC that is on equal footing with the others, dammit, nothing more nothing less. compare 10 med drones with no ship bonuses with 5 med drones with ship bonuses. or, since people are so eager to add heavy drones + dmg bonuses or smth, compare 10 med drones with no ship bonuses at all with 5 heavy drones with ship bonuses. Oh thats no fun, for the purposes of sarcasm assume he meant current bonus + 1 drone control/level. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:53:00 - [148] Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 21:54:10 Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? 600dps from drones would shut me up, yes. It'd also make a kick ass forward observer for a carrier... Here you go, one happy brother! Hey CCP, open those Christmas bags a bit earlier and start handing out drone space, it makes Gallente happy, and there's nothing better on a forum than seeing Gallente not whine! Yaayyyy !!! Cheers! it looks like we've just reach somewhere in this long flammage Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? I think that would be overpowered, but I haven't done the DPS calculations so not sure. It sounds overpowered. The last thing I want is an overpowered ship. I want a BC that is on equal footing with the others, dammit, nothing more nothing less. compare 10 med drones with no ship bonuses with 5 med drones with ship bonuses. or, since people are so eager to add heavy drones + dmg bonuses or smth, compare 10 med drones with no ship bonuses at all with 5 heavy drones with ship bonuses. Oh thats no fun, for the purposes of sarcasm assume he meant current bonus + 1 drone control/level. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:57:00 - [149] Originally by: Black Scorpio Invalidating other's people comments makes you happy is it? English not being their first language is a basis to flame? lol, English is my first language! If missed words mean so much to you you should look up that English teacher you had in 5th grade and marry her (maybe you already have). The point of the matter, is that CCP hasn't done this for a reason. Would you like to say they're really so incompetent and so quick to release a ship that does the same DPS as your Vexor? This is not the case m8, as you're trying everyone on this forum trying to believe! English enough for you? Sigh. First off, I said I wasn't going to comment on language since I assumed you're not a native. Since you are: work on your writing :) (I'm not a native, which makes it slightly more amusing :) Then: the whole point of this forum is to figure out bugs in Kali, to balance ships, etc. No, I don't think CCP is above making balance mistakes, in fact history proves that they make them all the time. It's no wonder, you have a few individual people doing ship stats and thousands of volunteers (that'd be us ) arguing endlessly about them and spending all too many hours doing tests and DPS calcs. We are the (preliminary) test department. Believe me or not, I really do want a balance in the new ship types, I don't want an overpowered Gallente ship -- because it would just get the nerfbat next. I want a solid ship that's fun to fly and which is on the same power level as the other BCs. Is that too much to ask? Right now, it looks like the other 3 BCs all rock, and the Myrmidon is a bit lacking.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:59:00 - [150] Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei Originally by: Alex Harumichi Please crawl back under your rock.Numerous tests show that at the moment it isn't, it needs some help. It's that simple. Remember that with the ECM nerf, the days of the ECM drone boats is over. You're not going to see ECM Myrmidons (or ECM Doms, for that matter). That whole ship type got a (much needed) nerf. OH RLY?- the myrmidons i just saw solo 2 drakes on the test server thanks to good piloting and med drones (and admittedly the fact that pilots haven't had time to tran up heavy assault missile skills). What peopl fail to realise is that while kali is giving you an ECM nerf its ALSO giving you a NOS boost in the form of longer fight time- a 3 nos 1 neut mrymid has an evil cap drain ability while with the new hitpoint boost can sustain a dual rep tank. , but i freely admit it needs some tweaking, I saw it go up against a skilled hurricane ansd yes it did die after a long fight. Heck you can even have a slightly larger drone bay, i'd be fine with a 150m3 bay because you'd still be crippled if another pilot destroys your drones (this seems to be your major gripe). My post was really aimed at all the idiots who want a 250m3 bay and a med hybrid bonus- you just seem to be calling everyone else a troll and whining, i havn't seen you post a single specifc suggested change yet- you just shout "it needs to be changed" from the rooftops. Incidentally the thorax outdamages the ferox and the prophecy and he brtuix some BS- Precisely. What for example stops a pilot from NOS_ing his target to death while arm repping itself? Then release the drones when it's target is left with no shield/armor rep capabilities? I'll tell you what, nothing.And no ,a caldari can't fit so and so NOS, because we simply DO NOT have the luxury of 4 or 5 heavy drones, not to mention the freaking 10 med drone apparent advantage. As I mentioned there are creative people in this game and that simply means that you would have to use your brains for once. Btw, just because a Hurricane beat the Myrmidon once it does not mean it's gimped. Is it supposed to ALWAYS win to call it at par? .. wow.. go play it may help you! English enough for you?

Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:00:00 - [151] Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:04:00 - [152] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP PvP w/ Kali is measured in minutes, not seconds. With the Hurricane I can web/kill all 4 heavies before I'm into half armor, and this is assuming I get into range of the Myrmidon's guns, which if you're smart, you won't for the first part of the fight. AFTER you've killed it's drones, THEN you move in and kill it. It's such a simple concept, even a monkey could do it. Lol, if a Myrmidon pilot lets you escape his guns, then he isn't doing something right. Even if that's the case why wouldn't he simply quit a losing battle, since apparently he and apparently you are out of range? I guess there's more than 1 way to do a monkey business. You have 1 battle and that should really convince everyone of a ships abilities? Hardly so m8, there are much more creative people in this game than what you're making the eve players out to be... The Hurricane is faster than the Myrmidon. With a 20km scram I can dicate range quite easily. With two webs, even more so. I haven't just fought one fight. I've fought numerous fights with multiple setups against a wide variety of players. You keep making the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing and don't know what I'm talking about. You couldn't be more wrong. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:06:00 - [153] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio Invalidating other's people comments makes you happy is it? English not being their first language is a basis to flame? lol, English is my first language! If missed words mean so much to you you should look up that English teacher you had in 5th grade and marry her (maybe you already have). The point of the matter, is that CCP hasn't done this for a reason. Would you like to say they're really so incompetent and so quick to release a ship that does the same DPS as your Vexor? This is not the case m8, as you're trying everyone on this forum trying to believe! English enough for you? Sigh. First off, I said I wasn't going to comment on language since I assumed you're not a native. Since you are: work on your writing :) (I'm not a native, which makes it slightly more amusing :) Then: the whole point of this forum is to figure out bugs in Kali, to balance ships, etc. No, I don't think CCP is above making balance mistakes, in fact history proves that they make them all the time. It's no wonder, you have a few individual people doing ship stats and thousands of volunteers (that'd be us ) arguing endlessly about them and spending all too many hours doing tests and DPS calcs. We are the (preliminary) test department. Believe me or not, I really do want a balance in the new ship types, I don't want an overpowered Gallente ship -- because it would just get the nerfbat next. I want a solid ship that's fun to fly and which is on the same power level as the other BCs. Is that too much to ask? Right now, it looks like the other 3 BCs all rock, and the Myrmidon is a bit lacking. Well brother, I hope you're sincere in your desires to achieve balance, usually it seems that people do this MOSTLY for their selfish reasons. And as I mention, it is good to have a forum on this I am just so Sick and Tired of ONLY Gallente pilots flooding them and blasting left and right that see their ships are underpowered. I didn't see nearly as many of the other races pilots out here, and I am far from assuming their ships are perfect. I'd say let the ships be. If there is this obvious gap in the Myrmidon's stats, I'm sure it will not go unnoticed. Preliminary 1-10 test fights do not and cannot decide it. It is simply not realistic. The fact that it might be so that Gallente pilots participate more in testing than other races, does not give them the right to turn the tables in their favor. Hope you are actually trying to see what I am sayig and not just pounding on the same spot!
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:07:00 - [154] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:09:00 - [155] Originally by: murder one The Hurricane is faster than the Myrmidon. With a 20km scram I can dicate range quite easily. With two webs, even more so. I haven't just fought one fight. I've fought numerous fights with multiple setups against a wide variety of players. You keep making the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing and don't know what I'm talking about. You couldn't be more wrong. No I don't assume that. But you assume that everyone in game will make the choices you do or fight at the full knowledge of who's facing who. This simply is not the case! Testing is one thing, reality always proved it is somehow a bit different now, isn't it!
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:09:00 - [156] Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? Would be overpowered since 10 drones under the current system would be 20 drones under the old system... wouldn't help with lag either. Personally my initial reaction would be to give it a 200m3 drone bay in return for losing 1 a high slot or trading 2 highs for 1 low and probably lowering the grid accordingly. It would have to be tested though.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:11:00 - [157] Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:15:14 Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? Would be overpowered since 10 drones under the current system would be 20 drones under the old system... wouldn't help with lag either. Personally my initial reaction would be to give it a 200m3 drone bay in return for losing 1 a high slot or trading 2 highs for 1 low and probably lowering the grid accordingly. It would have to be tested though. wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. however, it will make it harder to eliminate the drone component of the ship (thus a big lump of it's firepower) because it is more spreaded out thru more drones. as for the lag, well, it is 10 drones. I cannot compete with such thing. Never said it didn't had any drawback ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:13:00 - [158] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. This is amazing, another UBER boat. Now lets add bonuses for each!
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:17:00 - [159] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. This is amazing, another UBER boat. Now lets add bonuses for each! if it is still overpowered in your eyes, remove the hybrid dmg bonus then ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:21:00 - [160] Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously...

Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:25:00 - [161] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously... yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:28:00 - [162] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously... yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. oh noess.., pliiizzz add more!!! more drones, more bonuses, more of everything, come on, you can't possibly have enough of them, 6/6/6, what's that a joke? 666? the number of the beast? i say, make it 7/7/7 to make it a lucky number :D
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:28:00 - [163] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 22:28:14 Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones Screw armor tanking, that'd be the best shield tanking ship in the game. EDIT: Ok thats hyperbole, but seriously I'd shield tank that thing. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:30:00 - [164] Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:33:00 - [165] /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [166] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3. Hey, how about a variety, some med some light drones,what's so bad about that? Need more DPS.. Christmas is coming! Darn I miss the Snowball launcher !!!
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [167] Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 14:31:35 [ Because all noncapital Gallente combat craft have a Small/Medium/Large Hybrid Bonus? False. The Imicus isnt a very good combat ship admitedly but its three light drones and bonus to drone range mean it can do nasty things to other frigates if they are set up for Long range. It has no hybred damage bonus.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [168] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3. that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 - [169] Originally by: Hllaxiu Screw armor tanking, that'd be the best shield tanking ship in the game. EDIT: Ok thats hyperbole, but seriously I'd shield tank that thing. So would I. I'd shield tank the current one if there were any point to putting damage mods in lows ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 - [170] Originally by: madaluap /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... Lots, as it help the BBQ produce steaks :) And I like them! :)

Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:39:00 - [171] Originally by: Grimpak that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much Even with the extra drones I don't think it would help that much since medium drones still go down pretty quick.. would also probably run into problems with ewar drones. I personally wouldn't want to fight a ship with 10 ECM drones or 6 ECM drones and 4 sensor damp drones. A flat change to the drone bay would be the simplest fix assuming it keeps it inline with the other BC... if that can't be done I'd probably say drop the rep bonus for a 5% hybrid dmg bonus.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:43:00 - [172] Originally by: madaluap /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... That much hot air? Will need some serious tanking, methinks...
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:43:00 - [173] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much Even with the extra drones I don't think it would help that much since medium drones still go down pretty quick.. would also probably run into problems with ewar drones. I personally wouldn't want to fight a ship with 10 ECM drones or 6 ECM drones and 4 sensor damp drones. A flat change to the drone bay would be the simplest fix assuming it keeps it inline with the other BC... if that can't be done I'd probably say drop the rep bonus for a 5% hybrid dmg bonus. I guess you have a point there. however a +1 drone control bonus would made the ship much more unique. hmm... maybe making the bonus applying to solely scout/medium combat drones? ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Kaathar Rielspar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:53:00 - [174] Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 26/10/2006 23:01:08 Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 26/10/2006 22:53:37 hmmm, interesting discussions on the new ships, especially the myrmidon. i like the most recent suggestions and if it is deemed that a change to the ship bonuses is in order then i'd go with the rep bonus and +1 scout/medium controlled per level would mean that it can field more drone dps than the vexor (by 2.5 drones at an extra 40mil+ cost, seems fairly balanced) and pilots have the option of 2 waves of 10 lights or a single cloud of mediums. this bonus would also make the ship unique if we discount the guardian vexor (theres the precedent right there) which can only be a good thing. my $0.02 ____________________ Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Originally by: Eximius Josari If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs? Overpriced Nos victims.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:56:00 - [175] Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar this bonus would also make the ship unique if we discount the guardian vexor (theres the precadent right there) which can only be a good thing. Its precedent for overlooking bonuses on ships which never get used due to their rarity... not really precedent for adding a new +1 drone control/lvl, although I suppose you could look to carriers for precedent on that.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:57:00 - [176] Originally by: Hllaxiu In short: 10 drones isn't going to happen so lets not waste our time on suggesting it. one can only try and ask to see if it's possible or not. oh and btw, I realy thing it is possible, since there is a skill that applies only to medium/scout drones. maybe tying up the control bonus to that parameter. Originally by: Azerrad InExile Basically would be garunteed death to smaller ships. you can do that already with the drake. 7 T2 assault launchers + precision lights = omfgpwned frigs and the like anyways at least it IS a suggestion, and I am/was being serious about it. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:13:00 - [177] Originally by: Grimpak you can do that already with the drake. 7 T2 assault launchers + precision lights = omfgpwned frigs and the like anyways at least it IS a suggestion, and I am/was being serious about it. I have no doubt that you were being serious, I just personally think it would have to many issues (btw I am completing drone interfacing 5 in about 10 days so I have nothing against drones). Regarding the drake I don't think 7x precision lights would do anywhere near the damage of 10x hammerheads, but 7x precision lights is going to make for an insane fleet support setup. I'm probably the most worried about the drake being unbalanced in all of this, but the hurricane isn't far behind. Whatever the ammar one is called seems ok and the gallente one seems a bit weak in comparision to the caldari and minmatar, but about on par with the amarr one. However, I'm not happy about any of them having tanking bonuses... I'd like to see the drake's bonus changed to 5% rof and 10% velocity and the gallente one changed to 10% drone and 5% hybrid.
albert camus Quam Singulari	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:13:00 - [178] hmm... all this therorectical crap, ive been playing with all the tier 2 bc's and there pretty well ballanced. All this raw dps stuff is just silly, in actual combat there all nice ships :)
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:15:00 - [179] Edited by: Kalhystia on 26/10/2006 23:15:36 I agree that Myrmidon needs bigger dronebay: 100m3 for a drone BC is just plain joke. The harbinger is pure sex, but could you put the lower gun in the proper place please? It just ruins the whole beauty of the ship
Quilan Ziller	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:31:00 - [180] To all Caldari who are whining about the Myrmidon. You are... incorrect. It is waay underpowered as it is, and only an increase in drone bay space will make it almost balanced against other BCs, especially the missile boats like Ferox. How so? With maximum gunnery and drone skills, Modal Neutrons/AM, 3 damage mods, and Ogre IIs damage against an unhardened Ferox is 360 DPS for 4 heavy drones, 430 for 5 heavy drones. Check it with QuickFit if you don't believe me. Now, the said Ferox has missiles (which ALWAYS hit), and it can fit a webber. The drones will go poof in the first few seconds of the fight. Those are heavy drones, very easy to kill, and very expensive. After that, the Myrmidon is toast. I don't even want to mention the fact that the DPS figures, even if we don't talk about drones getting killed, are nothing spectacular for a triple-MFS suicide fit. And that a Brutix does more damage than that. This ship needs more drone bay space, period. Otherwise, it is only good for level 3 mission running. And stop mentioning the medium drones... Vexor can do that perfectly already. And if a ship 10 times as expensive as a Vexor does the same damage, something is terribly wrong. After all, Drake does not do the same damage as a Moa, and Brutix does more damage than a Thorax. For the price, Myr should be a mini-Domi, not an overpriced Vexor. Otherwise, it will only be flown by noobs, and will never see much PvP (except as being a pirate magnet). And even 5 heavy drones is NOT overpowered against a Caldari ship with missiles.

Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:19:00 - [181] As I said in another post, Drake is comparible to the cerb, in fact all the tier 2 BC are comparible to the HAC they most resemble in each race, thats all except the Myr, compare it to a Ishtar, all I can say is CEO - Art of War
Apollyonn Caldari R.O.G.U.E	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:28:00 - [182] Originally by: Blind Man considering BC level 5: Caldari Ferox and Drake, they both get a shield res bonus (I thought the tier 2's were more 'damage dealers'?) IÆd honestly prefer this, you need a good balance between DPS and staying power. Originally by: Blind Man The Drake also gets another mid and high over the Ferox, making it a better tank anyway. That is very true and it seems to me like it is with the intent of it actually having more of an EWAR capability. Originally by: Blind Man Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. I donÆt really think that this would be a good idea imho. The problem here then becomes that all these people could potentially have trouble because of the following reasons: a) donÆt want to fly a drake and already fly a ferox with missiles b) prefer missiles and are already trained for command modules c) those who primarily use the ferox and canÆt afford the drake as soon as they release it and they change the feroxÆs fitting capabilites Originally by: Blind Man I also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship. The damage difference seems fine to me, but you have to remember the purpose of those ships (Nighthawk, Vulture, and even the Ferox) is to run the Command Links. Theese three ships all have specialized purposes that makes them important. You canÆt just expect every ship to be equal, some will serve a specific purpose. I donÆt know enough and havenÆt looked at the others enough to be able to make any kind of educated or intelligent assessment of them other than to remind everyone that the command ships are meant to serve a specific purpose regardless of damage output. ALL I KNOW FOR SURE, I WANT THIS SHIP NOW!
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 04:47:00 - [183] Edited by: Mak''shar Karrde on 27/10/2006 04:47:28 I (and most Minmatar!) am happy with the Hurricane as is. Please don't change it. Thank you. The joys of alliance warfare...
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 05:13:00 - [184] The only logical reason I can see for the Myrs pathetic drone bay is CCP not wishing it to use heavy drones. Now that being said, WHY shouldnt it be able to use 5 heavys? doing the math this will only put it on par with the damage potential of the other tier 2 BCs, so whats the problem? So lets say it can now field 5 heavys, those 5 heavys are pretty easy to kill, especialy with the fights being made longer now, so it realy needs to be able to replace lost drones easily right? surely this is only fair as we cant exactly shoot the guns/launchers off the other ships. So now we have worked out that 5 heavys is in fact quite fair, and it realy needs to be able to have multiple waves of drones so it doesnt become completely useless after a few have been shot, also if it warps out it instantly loses all its damage. So, why cant it have a Ishtar sized drone bay? why would this be so bad? why cant it have 5 heavys, 5 meds and 5 lights in its bay? Realy not understanding why some people are so anti big drone bay for what is a dedicated drone ship. s said above all the other BCs are comparible to there HAC brothers, Cerb vs Drake, according to most numbers etc the Drake is on par if not BETTER than the Cerb, so why cant the Myr be more like a Ishtar than the Vexor its more currently like atm? CEO - Art of War
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 05:21:00 - [185] Originally by: Karen Dark First yes i fly Caldari and almost nothing else. Second why not put a MWD on a missile ship? So a MWD gives you a big sig it doesnt matter what weapons you are useing. The heavy assault missiles have fight time of 2 seconds base. Heck all someone has to do is orbit you at 10-11ks and wear you down cause you wont catch them and you wont be able to run cuz they will have scramed you to death. Once agin this was an IDEA nothing more.Thanks for being a asshat and contributing nothing useful to this thread. Oh Jesus *****F'ing christ... HAM's are SHORT RANGE WEAPONS. They're the missile equivalent of blasters. What you've jsut said is like a Thorax pilot going "omg, my basters can't hit the enemy if they stay outsde my range, boostkthnx". You don't HAVE to use HAM's on the drake, heavy missiles can still be used on this ship. Getting into range to do this can be accomplished in many ways, web and hope hte come to you, AB/MWD and goto them or have a gangmate tackle them down for you. If you can't do any of those three, fit normal heavy missiles. Your DPS will still be something fierce. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Quilan Ziller	Posted - 2006.10.27 05:32:00 - [186] Originally by: Nebuli The only logical reason I can see for the Myrs pathetic drone bay is CCP not wishing it to use heavy drones. Now that being said, WHY shouldnt it be able to use 5 heavys? doing the math this will only put it on par with the damage potential of the other tier 2 BCs, so whats the problem? So lets say it can now field 5 heavys, those 5 heavys are pretty easy to kill, especialy with the fights being made longer now, so it realy needs to be able to replace lost drones easily right? surely this is only fair as we cant exactly shoot the guns/launchers off the other ships. So now we have worked out that 5 heavys is in fact quite fair, and it realy needs to be able to have multiple waves of drones so it doesnt become completely useless after a few have been shot, also if it warps out it instantly loses all its damage. So, why cant it have a Ishtar sized drone bay? why would this be so bad? why cant it have 5 heavys, 5 meds and 5 lights in its bay? Realy not understanding why some people are so anti big drone bay for what is a dedicated drone ship. s said above all the other BCs are comparible to there HAC brothers, Cerb vs Drake, according to most numbers etc the Drake is on par if not BETTER than the Cerb, so why cant the Myr be more like a Ishtar than the Vexor its more currently like atm? Well said. And, coming from a Caldari character, sounds really convincing! Please, increase the Myr's drone bay!
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:55:00 - [187] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 27/10/2006 06:55:23 Any dev comment on myr problem? Just a " we know there is a problem with myrmidon" should be good. I know those ships are just in testing, so be aware for a problem it's already a good step. :) on the other way if u say "no and again no to bigger drone bay", we know that we must suggest something else ( brutix like gunboat? )
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:57:00 - [188] Here is something to think about, pure suicide gank DPS. If you bump the drone bay to 125m3 Myr: 5x Ogre IIs = 466 DPS 5x Neutrons IIs w/ 3x stabs = 427 DPS Total = 893 dps Brutix: 5x Hammerhead IIs = 155 DPS 7x Neutron IIs /w 3x stabs = 748 DPS Total = 903 dps A less suicidal drone fitting would be 2x Ogres, 5x Hammerheads, 5x Hobgoblins. Initial damage with 2x Ogres and 3x Hammerheads would be 326 dps. If it fits 5x Ions with 1x Mag stab, the dps is on the guns would be 298. Combined DPS would be 624 (or 569 without the mag stab). Brutix dps with Ion/electron mix and dual repper tank is 560 dps. At this point, I'm just -not- seeing the reason for not giving it at least a 125m3 drone bay. Especially since its dps would drop a lot once the two ogres get picked out.
Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:13:00 - [189] Edited by: Flabida jaba on 27/10/2006 07:15:47 Originally by: Jaedar Metron OK ok, no need to flame me, I was under the impression Drake had more dps than other BC's and was overpowered. I guess I let the whines get through to me... I dont want to swim in guns, I use missiles and missiles only, and am really looking forward to the drake This is not an attemp to flame this guy..but isnt this true of most, of the blather that flys around these forum's...... So you just thought it out DPS'ed all the other BC's and so it should be nerfed????????????????????????????????? even tho you actually had no real idea! just unhelpful and unconstuctive input! This kind of garbage is rampant on these forums! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Under optimal conditions for each ship the Drake Might hit 70-80% the raw dps of the hurricain or harbinger..and that is using the new short range heavy assult missles. Yes it can mount a great tank ..but with its bonus IT must be sheild tanked and it is still the slowest least agile teir II BC. My fave so far is the Hurricain.......that thing has got BMF spray painted on the side and will be come the norm for pirating prolly speed, amour tank, damage++, mid for EW pwnage and scramble ouch i love it Myrm.......prolly need's some love TBH even if it had a 125m3 bay it still screams "pwnd my drones and u will pwnd me"...... and whats the deal with the large sig radius???
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:37:00 - [190] Same sig radius as Brutix - all the tier-2s have the same sig radius as the tier-1s. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!

Akiman	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:45:00 - [191] give myrmidon 6th turret slot and enough pg to fit it...like u thought so... for drone bay is 150m3 5 heavy 5 light drones %5 damage to hybrid turrets %10 to drone stuff . not overpowered not underpowered. if u think it is change drone damage bonus to dronebay bonus. but like this myrmidon is pointless. if u want a dedicated drone boat change it to drone bay and drone damage bonus.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.27 08:04:00 - [192] I'll have to agree with the consensus here. The other BCs look very nice (especially Drake), but the Myrmidon is severely lacking in comparison. To summarize it's points of imbalance: 1. Insufficient damage 2. Insufficient drone bay 3. Armor repairer bonus Because the Myrmidon relies on it's drones as it's primary source of damage, it needs that source to be both sufficient and reliable. Item #3 is there simply because it's an inferior bonus to the resistance one. Solution: 1. +1 turret hardpoint, bonus: +15% damage to light and medium drones, +10% damage to heavy drones 2. Drone bay 200-250 m3 3. Resistance bonus ---
Quilan Ziller	Posted - 2006.10.27 08:38:00 - [193] Originally by: Jin Entres I'll have to agree with the consensus here. The other BCs look very nice (especially Drake), but the Myrmidon is severely lacking in comparison. To summarize it's points of imbalance: 1. Insufficient damage 2. Insufficient drone bay 3. Armor repairer bonus Because the Myrmidon relies on it's drones as it's primary source of damage, it needs that source to be both sufficient and reliable. Item #3 is there simply because it's an inferior bonus to the resistance one. Solution: 1. +1 turret hardpoint, bonus: +15% damage to light and medium drones, +10% damage to heavy drones 2. Drone bay 200-250 m3 3. Resistance bonus IMO, this will make the Myr a bit overpowered - and will incite more Caldari whining. I think that there is no reason to add turret hardpoints to it - not enough grid for them. Resistance bonus is more suitable for an Amarr ship rather then for a Gallente one. But the drone bay needs to be fixed. I think it should be 150 to 200 m3, combined with the current 10% drone bonus. Even a 125 m3 bay will be an improvement... Though a marginal one.
fade Thor	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:16:00 - [194] the myr looks underpowered, but giving it much more than a 100m3 dronebay will make it overpowered, most bs's hav dronebays 125m3 or less, the drone carrying cruisers get 75m3. id say keep the 100m3 dronebay but make the bonuses 10%dronedamage and hp, and 5m3 to dronebay per level. then change the slot layout to 5/6/6 to favor tanking and ewar over turret damage.
Captain Raynor	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:19:00 - [195] Well I really don't understand all the crying over the Drake.. For one, don't compare it to the Ferox which is quite possibly one of the worst designed ships in the game if you ask me. 5 Turrets? Please, it should have 6, maybe 7.. 5 launcher slots? Why.. total schizo layout, I am guessing CCP added the launcher slots so it could be a dual purpose ship and appease to people who go caldari->missiles and wanted to be able to use it.. with the Drake this is no longer needed, make the Ferox a more capable railboat, get rid of those launcher slots add more turrets. The Drake is obviously a great ship, I don't see why people are complaining too much about 7x heavy assault launchers on it, the range is actually pretty bad and the Drake is hardly a speed demon, in fact it's pretty damn slow in general, ~400m/s with a 10mn afterburner II? I don't think a missile velocity bonus would be good for the Drake, it would just make hvy assault missiles more powerful on it, extending the range a good amount, the Drake being slow and hvy assault missiles being slow kinda balances it out. Cerberus with heavy assault launchers is probably going to be scary though.. lots of range there (double range bonus). The real Jim Raynor.
Kapitanleutnant Mei	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:27:00 - [196] you don't listen do you? you all keep whining on for you uber boat while tactly ignoring every point made against it. rather than attempt to use the ship with a modicum of skill you insist on attempting to make it into an ishtar/HAC comparisons make me laugh,there is no reason why it should be better or worse than the HAC, it should be DIFFERENT. which it is. The brutix DPS comparison is also ridiculous, the brutix is you high DPS ship, comparable to the drake+hurricane+harbringer. There is absolutly no reason why the mrymydon should approach the DPS of the highest damage non-BS in the game and still be able to fit 3 NOS (a key part of this ship which many people don't seem to get). Again, because you ignore it -these ships have been specifically designed with rigs in mind, your drones will increase their effectivness dramatically, just as the drake has a high cpu to fit the launcher upgrades. Having said that I don't think an upgrade to 150m3 is neccesarily over powered for the loss of a high slot/turret
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:51:00 - [197] Will all the flamers and trolls please shut the **** up and let the people having constructive conversations get on with it. Several people say they have tested the myrmidon and that they found it weak. Having looked at the stats (and having a gallente alt who flies vexors) I agree with them. It's not really a substantial upgrade from the vexor at all. Everyone seems happy with the stats on the Amarr and Minmatar ships, they are worried that the Caldari may be too strong and the Gallente too weak. There was a constructive discussion of whether that was true or not, by how much it was too weak/strong and what could be done to fix it going on. That in case you missed it is why the Devs made this thread. They _wanted_ balance feedback. Now I was looking at how much stronger the Drake is than the Ferox and thinking that the Drake seems too strong, but there is the very good point made that the Ferox is a very weak battlecruiser - so maybe the Drake is fine and the Ferox needs some work. It would certainly make sense now we have a missile boat available to drop its missile hardpoints and increase the turret ones. For the Gallente one - I've seen several good suggestions, but I don't like the idea of increasing the number of drones controlled at once simply because CCP reduced the number of drones in the first place to reduce lag. Nothing smaller than carriers really should be able to field swarms of drones. Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:03:00 - [198] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Karen Dark A MWD on a misile ship? You apparently can't fly one. Drop resistances for a MWD.. lol, anyone who ACTUALLY fly caldari see any problem ? First yes i fly Caldari and almost nothing else. Second why not put a MWD on a missile ship? So a MWD gives you a big sig it doesnt matter what weapons you are useing. The heavy assault missiles have fight time of 2 seconds base. Heck all someone has to do is orbit you at 10-11ks and wear you down cause you wont catch them and you wont be able to run cuz they will have scramed you to death. Once agin this was an IDEA nothing more.Thanks for being a asshat and contributing nothing useful to this thread. Karen, if you're refering to standard misiles I believe the base is approx. 35km of range, and in a smaller ship that you usually have standards fitted, range isn't so much of a problem. As for the BC class, it uses exclusively Heavy Misiles, which with skills and all are good to at least 60+ km not to mention up to 70-80km. So I really think this idea on your end is a bad one, and it will not have any implications in the game. It certainly has very limited application on a caldari ship anyway. MWD is used primarily on a short ranged high damage ships to get quickly to target. Caldari doesn't have 1 ship that is good at that, especially not their misile based BC! 5% resistance is a much more viable bonus and one that can be of use! In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Zarch AlDain
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:31:00 - [199] Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:33:28 Proposal: Harbinger Harbinger is not as ill recieved as is Abbadon, but still it's not up to par with it's peers. I propose that you redesign it as a mixed laser-drone platform. Not as drone oriented as it's Gallente counterpart, Harbinger will require usage of lasers to compete with it's peers (ie Nos+Drone combo not feasible). Here it is, plain and simple: Harbinger 6-5-7 75m3 drone bay 6 turret hardpoints Bonuses: 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use per skill level 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level NOS + drone combo is not feasible. On On the Harbinger it would be simply outclassed by Myrmidion running same setup. Focus is on combining damage with some versatility, something Amarr lacks atm. We don't need another turret ship. We don't need another turret ship. And as to why Harbinger is not up to par. Compare with Hurricane using some viable setups (using Kali ammo stats) Harbinger 7x Heavy Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 601.2 DPS Hurricane 7x 220mm II w/ Hail + 1x Gyrostab II + 1x Hammerhead II + 4x Hobgoblin II = 579.8 DPS So what does the Harbinger sacrifice for that paltry dmg advantage? Hurricane can fit MAR II + 1600mm Tungsten + 10mn MWD II + Med Nos II. Harbinger only has room for MAR II and 10MN AB II. No room for plate or med NOS. So Hurricane tanks better, goes faster, much more cap, much less vulnerable to tracking disruptors, and has smaller sig radius. Tbh why would you choose to fly Harbinger? And what if Harbinger dropped down to Focused Medium Pulse II? Harbinger 7x Focused Medium Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 536.8 DPS Now it can fit a 1600mm plate, but it does less DPS than Hurricane. Whether you choose to fit MWD or AB, it still can't fill it's last high slot with a Med NOS. And it still has less cap available compared to Hurricane. Simply outclassed.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:33:00 - [200] Originally by: fade Thor the myr looks underpowered, but giving it much more than a 100m3 dronebay will make it overpowered, most bs's hav dronebays 125m3 or less, the drone carrying cruisers get 75m3. Actually, giving it more than 100m3 dronebay will in no way make it overpowered, it will just put it on the same line as the other tier2 bcs. Consider that (unlike the Vexor and Dom) the Myrmidon gets no damage bonus to anything other than the drones. It needs 5 x heavy drones to compete with the other new battlecruisers, especially considering how easy the drones are to kill with Kali longer combat times. As is, with medium drones the Myrmidon has equal DPS to the Vexor, making it useless; why fly an expensive BC when you get the same damage from a cheap t1 cruiser? With heavies it is only slightly better than a Vexor, and if even one of those drones is killed it's game over -- the ship has no room for spares. Maybe the devs thought the ship should use mediums (that would explain the drone bay, 100m3 is nice for two waves of mediums). Problem is, medium drones are totally inadaquate for BCs as the primary damage source. Vexor: 75m3 Myrmidon: 100m3 Ishtar: 375m3 (with HAC V) Dominix: 375m3 See the problem? The Myrmidon is pretty close to Vexor-level, when it should be closer to Ishtar/Dom. All the other tier2 BCs are fairly close to their HAC counterparts is power, the Myrmidon is so far behind the Ishtar as a drone boat is isn't even funny. For example, the Ishtar gets multiple waves of heavy drones and turret damage bonus. In light of the above, how on earth would having 5 heavy drones (with room for a few spares) and no turret damage bonus make the Myrmidon overpowered?

Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:35:00 - [201] Originally by: Alex Harumichi In light of the above, how on earth would having 5 heavy drones (with room for a few spares) and no turret damage bonus make the Myrmidon overpowered? Agree completely. Myrmidon should have at least 150m3 drone bay.
gfldex	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:55:00 - [202] Some ppl what to see a damage bonus for the Myrmidon. Did you ever tryed to fit it? With a dual rep fitting it cant get a injector (must have with the long fights), 3 med NOS and 5 electrons on. It simply dont got the grid. Even with diminishings it's to low on CPU to fit anything usefull in the med slots. That leads to another odd problem. We have some BC that can go full tank with tec 2 gear for both tank and guns (there is no need for tec 2 scrams and the like and you would not be able to go tec 2 here anyway because of CPU issues). Whereby others can't. In some cases (harbinger) they are even to low on CPU to go full gank. So my question is now: Is there any real reason why some BC are able to fit tec 2 and others dont? -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:02:00 - [203] Edited by: Sniser on 27/10/2006 11:02:43 Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:33:28 And as to why Harbinger is not up to par. Compare with Hurricane using some viable setups (using Kali ammo stats) Harbinger 7x Heavy Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 601.2 DPS Hurricane 7x 220mm II w/ Hail + 1x Gyrostab II + 1x Hammerhead II + 4x Hobgoblin II = 579.8 DPS So what does the Harbinger sacrifice for that paltry dmg advantage? Hurricane can fit MAR II + 1600mm Tungsten + 10mn MWD II + Med Nos II. Harbinger only has room for MAR II and 10MN AB II. No room for plate or med NOS. So Hurricane tanks better, goes faster, much more cap, much less vulnerable to tracking disruptors, and has smaller sig radius. Tbh why would you choose to fly Harbinger? And what if Harbinger dropped down to Focused Medium Pulse II? Harbinger 7x Focused Medium Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 536.8 DPS Now it can fit a 1600mm plate, but it does less DPS than Hurricane. Whether you choose to fit MWD or AB, it still can't fill it's last high slot with a Med NOS. And it still has less cap available compared to Hurricane. Simply outclassed. I had the same problem with my Harbringer if i fit heavy pulse i only have enough pg to fit ab and a single MAR t2 or 1 plate 800mm but SAR with AWU4. I cant understand why Tux dont see amarr fits are really hard to do in nearly every ship(no T2) :S It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:42:00 - [204] IMO the harbringer is ok, exept that it needs 1 less high and 1 more low.
Myrrdin Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:54:00 - [205] Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 27/10/2006 11:02:43 I had the same problem with my Harbringer if i fit heavy pulse i only have enough pg to fit ab and a single MAR t2 or 1 plate 800mm but SAR with AWU4. I cant understand why Tux dont see amarr fits are really hard to do in nearly every ship(no T2) :S Hmm, managed to get on the test server last night and fitted a harbinger with 7 Heavy Pulse II's, 10MN AB II, Selection of EW, MAR II, 3 HSII's and t2 energized membranes. Had about 150 grid left over after that (to use for the grid increase on turrets demanded by Rigs!). My AW upgrades is currently at level 4 though.
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:59:00 - [206] Ok the new battlecruisers :) Heres my discussion contribution; Gallente; I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat. People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. If you were going to boost it, more powergrid/CPU and maybe 1 or 2 extra turret points. Caldari; Drake seems nasty but why the hell does it have more damage and more tank than the ferox? Drake needs to be ballanced I think, basically lose its resistance bonus, replace with missile velocity. Ferox therefore remains the tanker. Ferox/Vulture also needs more turret points at reduced missile points. Amarr; Prophecy is still an uber tanker and its damage isnt too poor either. Harbinger is just like the Minmatar Hurricane, the layout is just dam fine, and very PVPy Obviously will suffer lack of tank when fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse, which balances it out, looking at the Harbinger, I am going to train t2 medium lasers up too Minmatar; I dont really like the Cyclone, its very versatile but it just doesnt want to solo PVP , its heavy on cap cos of its active tank, and really does need an extra medium at the expensive of a low. Hurricane therefore is just a damned fine ship, ROF and damage bonus like Rupture, but with more damage and tank. I just like it, I can see myself happily pvping in this ship for the rest of my time playing EvE tbh :)
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:17:00 - [207] Originally by: Aramendel IMO the harbringer is ok, exept that it needs 1 less high and 1 more low. so you want they take out one turret and less pg for more cpu? nice! obviously you arent amarr if you want they nerf it lol. There is no way the ship dont have an utility high slot since all bc tier2 ships have it. They current dps balance is based on drones It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:28:00 - [208] Originally by: Myrrdin Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 27/10/2006 11:02:43 I had the same problem with my Harbringer if i fit heavy pulse i only have enough pg to fit ab and a single MAR t2 or 1 plate 800mm but SAR with AWU4. I cant understand why Tux dont see amarr fits are really hard to do in nearly every ship(no T2) :S Hmm, managed to get on the test server last night and fitted a harbinger with 7 Heavy Pulse II's, 10MN AB II, Selection of EW, MAR II, 3 HSII's and t2 energized membranes. Had about 150 grid left over after that (to use for the grid increase on turrets demanded by Rigs!). My AW upgrades is currently at level 4 though. and your cap last enough long with only a MAR and no cap booster? Do you know hurricane can fit 1600mm plate + MAR and do nearly same dps than harbringer? So their guns dont use cap and can tank better? with ab you dont dictate the range. Without cap booster you will be out of cap in nearly no time with no plate on setup its much less armor than others bc do you know to let your MAR t2 rep as much as a 1600mm plate the fight need last 140seconds to be equal? 1600mm plate gives around 5000HP mar t2 reps 35.5hp/s do maths If focused medium pulse t2 in a harbringer werent that bad in dps then would be no problem but they arent as good as 220mm fitted in a hurricane It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:31:00 - [209] Edited by: Aramendel on 27/10/2006 12:31:23 Originally by: Sniser so you want they take out one turret and less pg for more cpu? nice! obviously you arent amarr if you want they nerf it lol. There is no way the ship dont have an utility high slot since all bc tier2 ships have it. They current dps balance is based on drones It cannot use the utility high slot (which is pretty much limited for nos anyway) due to grid issues in either case. And just because all tier 2 BCs currently have one does not mean all have to have one. For the tier 1 BCs all exept the Brutix have one too. Did not stop the Brutix having 7 turrets & 7 highs. Typically amarr ships have 1 more low than other ships of the same class, this is not the case for the tier 2 BCs. And for the harbringer 1 more low would be far more useful than 1 non-turret high.
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:35:00 - [210] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 27/10/2006 12:31:23 Originally by: Sniser so you want they take out one turret and less pg for more cpu? nice! obviously you arent amarr if you want they nerf it lol. There is no way the ship dont have an utility high slot since all bc tier2 ships have it. They current dps balance is based on drones It cannot use the utility high slot (which is pretty much limited for nos anyway) due to grid issues in either case. And just because all tier 2 BCs currently have one does not mean all have to have one. For the tier 1 BCs all exept the Brutix have one too. Did not stop the Brutix having 7 turrets & 7 highs. Typically amarr ships have 1 more low than other ships of the same class, this is not the case for the tier 2 BCs. And for the harbringer 1 more low would be far more useful than 1 non-turret high. if you cant use the utility slot then you are agree with me and there isnt enough powergrid It's great being Amarr, ain't it?

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:41:00 - [211] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 12:42:15 Originally by: Isyel Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey Hurricane [snip] Please just shut up and leave my Hurricane alone. It's my (and a lot of other people's) dream ship. Just WHAT else do you want? I said basically the same thing. First I looked at the Harbinger and said YES! Then i looked at the Hurricane and went BWA?!!?!?! The design on the Harbinger and Hurricane are great, very similar ships. There are some problems though, the Harbinger gains 20% armor, and two medium drones[or 4 up'd from light], and 6% better capacitor, in exchange for worse fitting, 10% velocity, size, and zero cap use. Its my understanding that Heavy Pulse Lasers are about equivelent to 425mm autocannons with a 25% damage boost[though i havent examined the actual differences when compared with current or kali ammo yet, however if ammo is similar in damage amount/type, the autocannons have roughly a 12% damage advantage with the 25% damage bonus not including reloading times] The problem of course is that heavy pulse lasers require 70 more PG to use for each, 78 more PG for the tech II variants. This leaves the Harbinger at a net loss of 316 power grid at max skills[366.4 difference with tech 2 and max skills] and the worse your skills are, the worse the difference gets. If the Harbinger is going to make use of its larger powergrid, its got to downsize its weapons[focused mediums PG use is 20 less than 425mm autocannon PG use] and further reduce any damage advantage it has over the Hurricane. And its still slower, heavier, bigger, and sucking down cap when it fires its gun. Are the 20% HP and two medium drones really compensation against smaller, lighter, faster boat with the same slot layout, able to fit larger guns, able to run an armor tank at least equal to yours, that doesnt burn capacitor when it shoots? According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. That is an entire 1600mm plate with garnishings[completly negating the armor strength boost]! And the Hurricane has 25 more CPU base with guns that are even easier to fit in that department too. What are the gun rigs going to do to this picture when the Hurricane has so much extra PG/CPU to play around with. The disparity is ridiculous. The Harbinger needs one of a number of different things. 7/4/7 slot layout. Give us more low slots to play around with, we dont need the utility slot up top, if we want a nos, we can drop a gun for it, if we want a gang mod, we can drop a gun for it. Finnaly a tough fitting choice that doesnt involve us being out of powergrid or CPU. Combine this with a fitting boost so that he can fit the big guns without being down on his competitors and the cap to run it all and you have a winner. OR It needs the 8th turret restored with the CPU/Grid to fit it. The thing looks funny with only 7 turrets anyway, so this is an eye pleasing fix as well. --------- The Bottom line is that in order for the Harbinger to be even close to the Hurricane it needs 75 more CPU and 300 more powergrid[max skills using t2 gun comparisons] and even then the Harbinger is using capacitor for less damage on the same slots flying slower, as a larger target than the Hurricane. You know there is something wrong when the "fast gank" BC from the "fast race" is able to out gank, and out tank the "Gank" BC from the "Gank/Tank" race. These next 367 characters are just here so that I can feel good about my self having used absolutly all the space to tell you, the folks at home, and the devs at work, that the Harbinger needs a boost in order to compete on the same level as at least one other BC, the directly comparble BC in the teir two line up. Thank you for taking the time to read this post and consider the
Iron Savior Caldari Red's Swashbucklers Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:41:00 - [212] I hope Cerberus will coast something about 25 mil in Kali, Drake looks MORE MORE better for 30-50 mil.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:50:00 - [213] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 12:53:24 Addendum: Please dont turn the Harbinger into a drone boat i like it just the way it is [with 100 more CPU, 500 more PG, and an 8th turret slot and a 20% bigger cap, or 75 more CPU, 300 more PG no utility 8th slot and a 7th low slot] 2nd Addendum: The Hurricane can also fit 3 missiles, or rather, 1 missile launcher extra in the high slot[since who would waste a double damage bonus to projectiles on a heavy assault launcher] and can stick either a heavy assault launcher or whatever in there, to increase damage even more over the Harbinger.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:55:00 - [214] agrees with Goumindong mini-geddon ftw \o/ ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:03:00 - [215] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 13:04:35 Originally by: Spaced Skunk I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat. People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. I don't think you've done the numbers on this one. Compared to Vexor, yes it has more hit points, but that is balanced by a much bigger sig rad (about double). Also, it's a lot slower and more cumbersome. That "bigger" tank isn't that big when everything evens out. Compared to Dom... well, that's the problem, isn't it. Where the Drake is not all that far behind the Raven, the Dom totally leaves the Myrmidon in the dust. A Dom DPS is probably double (large turrets with damage bonus) and multiple waves of heavy drones. If you want a smaller drone ship, there is very little reason to fly a Myrmidon over a Vexor. If you want more DPS and tank, the Dom is miles ahead (and no, the price difference isn't that big, either). 375m3 drone bay, large guns with damage bonus, etc. Compared to Eos... well, Eos (which isn't a primary drone boat) has 300m3 of drone bay. Why does the Gallente "drone battlecruiser" have a third of that? Compared to Ishtar... here is gets silly. Ishtar can field multiple waves of heavy drones (375m3 bay), has a gun damage bonus, small signature radius, huge tank, etc etc. It's just no contest, not even on the same playing field. Take a look at the other races. The Drake is pretty close to the Cerberus, in fact all the other tier2's are pretty close to the respective HACs in power. Except the Myrmidon, which is a very slightly tank-boosted slow Vexor. To balance things out, either the Myrmidon needs a boost (drone bay to 150-200m3 is the easiest solution), or the other tier2 BCs need a nerf. And I don't think anyone wants a nerf. With the old broken ECM system, the Myrmidon might just have worked as an ECM-drone platform. With that fixed in Kali, it's left just looking sad. Again: Vexor (cruiser): 75m3 Myrmidon (battlecruiser): 100m3 Eos (battlecruiser): 300m3 Ishtar (cruiser): 375m3 Dominix (battleship): 375m3 Spot the problem? (Not to mention that the Myrmidon is the only ship in the Gallente "drone boat" range which has no gun damage bonus of any kind and relies only on drones. And it has the second-smallest drone bay. Hmmmm.)
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:19:00 - [216] Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36 7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt its already decent, like an omen only a lot less gimped drone harbinger, no thx to those people saying we dont need another turret ship, yes we do we need a GOOD turret ship t1 and in the cruiser area there isnt a good amarr turret ship the maller and prophecy do weak damage cos they're tank ship and the omen is horribly gimped by lack of grid and a few other things
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:24:00 - [217] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 13:25:56 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Again: Vexor (cruiser): 75m3 Myrmidon (battlecruiser): 100m3 Eos (battlecruiser): 300m3 Ishtar (cruiser): 375m3 Dominix (battleship): 375m3 Spot the problem? You have incorrectly labeled the Eos as a Battlecruiser and the Ishtar as a Cruiser, when they are in fact, a Command Ship and Heavy Assault Cruiser instead? What do i win Bob?! Anyway, I think changing the drone damage/HP bonus to be +15-20% for medium/light drones is a better fix if it needs one. edit: This would secure it as a medium drone platform, giving it decent drone damage without sacrificing the target versitility of medium drones versus heavy drones[which have issues hitting small things]. I.E. a unique drone boat role.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:31:00 - [218] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 13:25:56 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Again: Vexor (cruiser): 75m3 Myrmidon (battlecruiser): 100m3 Eos (battlecruiser): 300m3 Ishtar (cruiser): 375m3 Dominix (battleship): 375m3 Spot the problem? You have incorrectly labeled the Eos as a Battlecruiser and the Ishtar as a Cruiser, when they are in fact, a Command Ship and Heavy Assault Cruiser instead? What do i win Bob?! Anyway, I think changing the drone damage/HP bonus to be +15-20% for medium/light drones is a better fix if it needs one. edit: This would secure it as a medium drone platform, giving it decent drone damage without sacrificing the target versitility of medium drones versus heavy drones[which have issues hitting small things]. I.E. a unique drone boat role. meh you want a unique drone boat? copy-pastes his suggestion 6/6/6 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 150m3 drone bay +1 scout/medium drone per level +5% dmg to med hybrid guns unique drone ship ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:34:00 - [219] It definitly needs the 6th turret, if only so it doesnt look funny. But i think that increasing the drone effectiveness is better than letting people use a lot of drones.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:40:00 - [220] Originally by: Goumindong It definitly needs the 6th turret, if only so it doesnt look funny. But i think that increasing the drone effectiveness is better than letting people use a lot of drones. well it was discussed. and disregarding the point of how the heck do you code the "+1 scout/med drone" thingy, it is equal in terms of firepower, but however it has his advantages. for example in the 5 drones + 20% drone dmg/hp thing, at lvl5 you have theoretically 10 drones, altho in practice it is 5 drones. in a 10 drone config with no firepower added, you have the same firepower (theoretically), but when you pop a drone, you don't lose 2 drones firepower instead. same firepower, but more spreaded out. now the problem is, how it is possible to have a +1 scout/med drone? maybe tying up the bonus to the parameter of the skill that gives more damage to scout/med drones? ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:49:00 - [221] 8 pages of a lot of .. comments .. I won't go into everything, but being a drone user I have to comment on the Myrmi.. First some general things: - PLEASE do not give it ANY weapon bonus, just drones (and if you really want a tanking bonus like it has now, imho it should have just drone boni, to finally give us a drone ship). - PLEASE do not lower the dmg bonus. Seriously would be unfair, see all tests. - I don't care about using 5 heavy drones with bonus, I care about being able to survive multiple fights/minutes. Seriously drones are easy to take out atm (especially heavies) and seeing as the turrets on a myrmi would be comparable to drones on other ships (ie backup).. Having 100 m^3 drone space is laughable. Give drones the ability to kill turrets/launchers for just 1 day and everyone will be able to feel the pain of losing 5-10M in a fight because they are easy to pick off. - Now if the community still believes having 5 heavy drones + bonus is overpowered, then give the Myrmi 200 M^3 drone space and change the bonus to scout drones only. Now the rest: - Either alter the model to just have 5 turret fittings or give it 6 gun fittings because it looks silly with 5 turrets fitted. (That would leave just 2 high slots besides the guns, so less NOS for the noobs [yes I said it] who fear 12km med nos on a drone ship)(Apparently people also forget the PG reqs for med nos/neut and armour tanks). - ATM all gallente drone ships are really more efficient than the myrmi. I have used my Domi for over 2 years now since it's the only efficient drone ship for my req's. I would only use the myrmi for it's glorious looks atm. Just consider (been said before): -) Domi can use heavy nos, large guns + bonus, same meds, better tank (+2 low slots will compensate the myrmi bonus plenty, and it has the LAR II iso MAR II), has the drone space and can tank passively better (duh). -) Ishtar ... enough said -) Eos ... actually this isn't a drone ship in my opinion since it doesn't have dmg bonus .. Would be (almost) the same as calling an Exequror a gunship since it has more space for ammo, but still it's a command ship, so it will outperform the Myrmi by lots in many fields. -) Vexor ... dmg bonus for guns, has the drone space for nice sets, and is about 1/10 of the price. I won't claim it's better, just loads more efficient. -) Ishkur lol, bring it in why don't we :) Let's see, 40 m^3 on full skills, great stuff, cheaper and it's uses make it more efficient by far (for one it will be hit a lot less). Now don't get me wrong. I have lived with the drone hate for many many years now (/me remembers the good old days of flying 10+ drones on his Domi)so I don't need an UBERWTFPWN drone ship but it would be nice to have at least a realistic extra choice. Calling people whiners because tests and stats prove them right is silly. Making dicussions personal is silly. Who needs to target drones with smartbombs or FoF missiles? The last ones will be standard cargo for missile ships especially short ranged Drakes. Like I said elsewhere on the forum: 150 m^3 would be ok, 175 m^3 would be perfect and if you feel like you should change the dmg bonus to just scout drones then so be it (even though that will make them on par with the others). my 2 cents and x paragraphs. - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please
TalanR Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:58:00 - [222] Caldari: The drake is a fine ship. The only thing I would change is the resistance bonus for a missile velocity bonus. This will but it in a better place with the caldari ships Moa -> Ferox (railguns and resistance) Caracal -> Drake (missle boat) Minmatar: The hurricane could use a base speed bonus of about 10m/s or a bonus for MWD. I would go with base speed because the MWD bonus might overpower the ship Gallante: This is a lot of complaining about this ship. I have tried it and I seems alright. A compromise might be a be this: base dronebay: 75m3 Fitting: 5 high (3 guns) 4 med (-1 slot) 8 low Bonus: 25m3 of dronespace per level (200m3 max.) 10% drone hp per level 7,5% armor repair per level this reduces the possible gun dps and compromises it with the drone space bonus. about the 4 med slots. i think that 5 is going to push it to a ecm/drone boat but I don't think a 5th slot would overpower the ship Amarr: DonÆt know. canÆt fly the ship so I will leave this to the pilots who can. TalanR
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:28:00 - [223] Originally by: Grimpak agrees with Goumindong mini-geddon ftw \o/ im agree with you and goumindong :P It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Kodiak31415 Imperial Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:35:00 - [224] For people who think that only 100m3 of space on the Myr is fine imagine if the launchers on your drake could be shot off in a volley or two? The fact of the matter is that if a Myr pilot uses heavies in PVP his/her drones will be gone inside of 30 seconds effectivly taking them out of the fight. If the Myr pilot uses meds they are left with a big fat cruiser (Thorax and vexor are almost as high dps as a med myr user). I think a bigger scout only bonus is the way to go with the Myr. A bigger bay would lead to the use of 5 heavies (overpowered) while the big scout bonus would put the Myr up in the range of other BC's. Hmmmm, just noticed that gallente are getting the shaft on new ships. A broken drone boat and a BS that replaces one thats already filling the slot fine. _______________________________ Idea stolen from DS: T2 Synthetic oil. It will get drones to return to your bay!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:43:00 - [225] Originally by: Kodiak31415 A bigger bay would lead to the use of 5 heavies (overpowered) while the big scout bonus would put the Myr up in the range of other BC's. Why would 5 heavies make it overpowered? That's still less DPS than an Ishtar, and comparable to the other tier2s.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:43:00 - [226] Originally by: Sniser if you cant use the utility slot then you are agree with me and there isnt enough powergrid Nope, I agree with you that the utility slot is kinda worthless for it atm. But IMO it would be better for the harbringer if it would be converted into an low slot instead of having it's powergrid increased to use it.
Orrin Danestarr	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:48:00 - [227] Indeed, the Hurricane need s a better base speed. Maybe 180 m/s.. maybe a base 200 m/s? I drool over being able to produce these vessels of much dooooom. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:50:00 - [228] Originally by: Spaced Skunk Ok the new battlecruisers :) Heres my discussion contribution; Gallente; I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat. People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. If you were going to boost it, more powergrid/CPU and maybe 1 or 2 extra turret points. /agreed 1 more turret slot, since 6 mounts on the model look silly with only 5 fitable turrets. and the fact u dont get any hybrid bonus makes a 6th turret not a too big issue dps wise. dronespace: imo the myrm should be able to carry at least 2 flights of med drones to counter its main prey, cruisers. and have additionaly 25-75 drone space for either logistic or scout drones or whatever u want to fit. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:08:00 - [229] Originally by: TalanR Caldari: Gallante: This is a lot of complaining about this ship. I have tried it and I seems alright. A compromise might be a be this: base dronebay: 75m3 Fitting: 5 high (3 guns) 4 med (-1 slot) 8 low Bonus: 25m3 of dronespace per level (200m3 max.) 10% drone hp per level 7,5% armor repair per level this reduces the possible gun dps and compromises it with the drone space bonus. about the 4 med slots. i think that 5 is going to push it to a ecm/drone boat but I don't think a 5th slot would overpower the ship TalanR How about this for the Drake: 3 high (2 missile) Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level. ...
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:19:00 - [230] Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36 7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt what about the absolution? It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:20:00 - [231] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 15:21:00 Originally by: Razin How about this for the Drake: 3 high (2 missile) Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level. Sounds fair. Honestly, if people think it's ok for the Myrmidon being a slightly more tanked Vexor (with same DPS), then the only thing to do is to change the Drake into a slightly more tanked Caracal. So let's see, that means 5 launcher slots. You can keep the 7 highs, but you'll have to use 2 of them for nosfes or smartbombs. Not happy with that? Right. Neither are we with the Myrmidon.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:33:00 - [232] I keep seeing people complaining about how the Myr being able to field 5 heavies will "give it the dps of a battleship". Bullocks! The DPS of a Domi with only 5 tech2 heavies is actually quite low. The only reason this works is because of the nos/ecm combo, which isn't going to work nearly as well on the Myrmidon due to the lack of heavy nos and ecm nerf. A full-gank Brutix can do 980dps. A dual-rep tank Brutix does over 500dps. Gallente are close range. But it looks to me like the Myrmidon will get pwned at all ranges. Hell, I'd take a Vexor up against a Myrmidon. All you gotta do is pop it's drones and tank the light guns because it won't be able to fit any mediums if it takes advantage of it's tank bonus.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:51:00 - [233] Originally by: Kruel I keep seeing people complaining about how the Myr being able to field 5 heavies will "give it the dps of a battleship". Bullocks! The DPS of a Domi with only 5 tech2 heavies is actually quite low. The only reason this works is because of the nos/ecm combo, which isn't going to work nearly as well on the Myrmidon due to the lack of heavy nos and ecm nerf. Exactly. With the ECM+nosfe+drones platform now pretty much dead (good thing too), "drone boats" aren't all that powerful. With increased Myrmidon drone bay: Myrmidon damage: 5 x heavy drone + 5 medium guns (no damage bonus) Dominix damage: 5 x heavy drone + 6 large guns with +5%/lvl damage bonus Someone who claims those are even remotely comparable has some education to do about gun damage. With 5 heavy drones, a Myrmidon would do general HAC damage. Like the Drake and others do now. With the small bay, a Myrmidon can choose to do either sub-HAC damage that will be gone fast leaving the ship helpless, or do t1 cruiser damage. Whee.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:16:00 - [234] Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:21:00 - [235] Originally by: Spaced Skunk Ok the new battlecruisers :) Heres my discussion contribution; Gallente; I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat. People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. If you were going to boost it, more powergrid/CPU and maybe 1 or 2 extra turret points. Caldari; Drake seems nasty but why the hell does it have more damage and more tank than the ferox? Drake needs to be ballanced I think, basically lose its resistance bonus, replace with missile velocity. Ferox therefore remains the tanker. Ferox/Vulture also needs more turret points at reduced missile points. Amarr; Prophecy is still an uber tanker and its damage isnt too poor either. Harbinger is just like the Minmatar Hurricane, the layout is just dam fine, and very PVPy Obviously will suffer lack of tank when fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse, which balances it out, looking at the Harbinger, I am going to train t2 medium lasers up too Minmatar; I dont really like the Cyclone, its very versatile but it just doesnt want to solo PVP , its heavy on cap cos of its active tank, and really does need an extra medium at the expensive of a low. Hurricane therefore is just a damned fine ship, ROF and damage bonus like Rupture, but with more damage and tank. I just like it, I can see myself happily pvping in this ship for the rest of my time playing EvE tbh :) Sorry buddy but I'd hardly choose a Ferox to tank hardly anything for PvP, maybe missions? lol.. be real, the BC class needs every shield res that it can get! Kepp the Drake as it is !!!
Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:29:00 - [236] Originally by: Razin Originally by: TalanR Caldari: Gallante: This is a lot of complaining about this ship. I have tried it and I seems alright. A compromise might be a be this: base dronebay: 75m3 Fitting: 5 high (3 guns) 4 med (-1 slot) 8 low Bonus: 25m3 of dronespace per level (200m3 max.) 10% drone hp per level 7,5% armor repair per level this reduces the possible gun dps and compromises it with the drone space bonus. about the 4 med slots. i think that 5 is going to push it to a ecm/drone boat but I don't think a 5th slot would overpower the ship TalanR How about this for the Drake: 3 high (2 missile) Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level. How about you go back to playing WoW!
Nicolaia Doniachevski	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:29:00 - [237] Gonna get flamed for this one but... figure I might as well throw this out there... ((Yes I dont fly Gallente nor do I use drones)) Anyway with that said, from what I can tell about EVERYONE elses posts is that: 1.The Drake, slightly overpowered, tone it down on the resists or add missile velocity. OKay... done. 2. The Hurricane... just about perfect... okay done 3. The Amarr BC... needs a cap boost in some fashion which from as far as I can tell is necessary for most Amarr ships but people will argue this as well. When it comes to lasers, not fond of the simplicity it is to resist against them. 4. The Gallente BC is just about nerfed ((at least most think so)) and this is why I am posting. Now, I am NOT going to go through and figure every blasted mathematical figure there is to determine if this is a good idea or not but everyone complaint comes down to drone capacity as well as dps. Has anyone ever pondered the idea of increasing the drone bay to hold up to 15 medium drones(3 waves of 5), limiting it to ONLY flying medium or smaller drones, but its bonus is "Capable of field +1 drone per BC level" -- A mini carrier of sorts since the Gallente ARE the drone insanity monsters of the game? Like I said... just an odd suggestion not meant to be anything more then such. Ps: I am Minmitar with only a little Caldari
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:33:00 - [238] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 15:30:49 Originally by: Razin How about this for the Drake: 3 high (2 missile) Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level. Sounds fair. Honestly, if people think it's ok for the Myrmidon being a slightly more tanked Vexor (with same DPS), then the only thing to do is to change the Drake into a slightly more tanked Caracal. So let's see, that means 5 launcher slots. You can keep the 8 highs, but you'll have to use 3 of them for nosfes or smartbombs. Or if you want to compare with Myrmidon and 4 heavies: your Drake has 7 launchers, but every time your shields drop below 50% one of your launchers blows up (this is to balance the ease of destroying those Myrmidon drones, leaving it helpless with no spares). Not happy with that? Right. Neither are we with the Myrmidon. Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there! English enough for you m8 ?????
Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:36:00 - [239] Originally by: Nicolaia Doniachevski Gonna get flamed for this one but... figure I might as well throw this out there... ((Yes I dont fly Gallente nor do I use drones)) Anyway with that said, from what I can tell about EVERYONE elses posts is that: 1.The Drake, slightly overpowered, tone it down on the resists or add missile velocity. OKay... done. 2. The Hurricane... just about perfect... okay done 3. The Amarr BC... needs a cap boost in some fashion which from as far as I can tell is necessary for most Amarr ships but people will argue this as well. When it comes to lasers, not fond of the simplicity it is to resist against them. 4. The Gallente BC is just about nerfed ((at least most think so)) and this is why I am posting. Now, I am NOT going to go through and figure every blasted mathematical figure there is to determine if this is a good idea or not but everyone complaint comes down to drone capacity as well as dps. Has anyone ever pondered the idea of increasing the drone bay to hold up to 15 medium drones(3 waves of 5), limiting it to ONLY flying medium or smaller drones, but its bonus is "Capable of field +1 drone per BC level" -- A mini carrier of sorts since the Gallente ARE the drone insanity monsters of the game? Like I said... just an odd suggestion not meant to be anything more then such. Ps: I am Minmitar with only a little Caldari If that is what you fly do not summarize the whiners on this forum and let us know that you summarized ending it with "done." As you said you have no experience in anything but Minmatar. Voice your opinion about that race ship then!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:38:00 - [240] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Kruel I keep seeing people complaining about how the Myr being able to field 5 heavies will "give it the dps of a battleship". Bullocks! The DPS of a Domi with only 5 tech2 heavies is actually quite low. The only reason this works is because of the nos/ecm combo, which isn't going to work nearly as well on the Myrmidon due to the lack of heavy nos and ecm nerf. Exactly. With the ECM+nosfe+drones platform now pretty much dead (good thing too), "drone boats" aren't all that powerful. With increased Myrmidon drone bay: Myrmidon damage: 5 x heavy drone + 5 medium guns (no damage bonus) Dominix damage: 5 x heavy drone + 6 large guns with +5%/lvl damage bonus Someone who claims those are even remotely comparable has some education to do about gun damage. With 5 heavy drones, a Myrmidon would do general HAC damage. Like the Drake and others do now. With the small bay, a Myrmidon can choose to do either sub-HAC damage that will be gone fast leaving the ship helpless, or do t1 cruiser damage. Whee. Maybe now you will finally realize what it is to fly a Ferox to a Brutix! Game on!

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:49:00 - [241] Originally by: Black Scorpio Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there! Ah, I see the trolls are waking up again. My example was just to show that if you think it's ok that the Gallente BC does t1 cruiser damage, then you should have no problem with the Caldari BC also being dropped down to Caracal level. Only fair, after all. And no, I don't want the Drake nerfed. But since it does HAC-equivalent damage, I damn well want the same for all the other tier2's also. The others are already pretty much there, Myrmidon is not. If needs be, I'm ok with it losing a turret hardpoint (5 -> 4 turrets). But it absolutely needs the bigger drone bay in order to function as a drone BC. Drake is pretty much equal to Cerberus. Myrmidon is a slightly boosted Vexor (t1 cruiser). That's the mismatch, and it needs correcting.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:56:00 - [242] Originally by: Black Scorpio b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Umm, what? The Brutix sucks, in general. Sure it has high dps if it gets to range, but it moves like a pig even with MWD and is very cap-dependent. I'd give pretty even odds in a Ferox vs Brutix fight, totally dependent on tactics, fittings and pilot skill. I don't fly the Ferox myself, but one of my corpmates does and she racks up a nice amount of kills with her Ferox. She even took on an Absolution (by mistake :) and survived to tell the tale (had to run, though). And anyways: even if there was an imbalance (which I doubt exists), what has that got to do with anything. In your logic, is it ok to have a new ship clearly gimped because some of the older ships are good? What kind of half-assed logic is that? How would you like it if the new Caldari battleship sucked totally, and people would respond to your complaints with "well, you guys already have the Raven, stop complaining!"?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:59:00 - [243] Originally by: Black Scorpio Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. Not actually reading the post 4tl! If you can get Heavy Assault Missiles to go 60km I'm pretty impressed. That's what, 30-40km/sec velocity since their flight time is 2-3 seconds. Who cares how far your Heavy missiles go. We weren't talking about them.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:01:00 - [244] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining! Actually Zarch is right, Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range and are the missile equivalent of blasters. They're different from heavy missiles. You lose. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:12:00 - [245] To emphasize: Heavy Assault Missiles. A little word can change things quite a lot. I wouldn't necessarily agree that they are the equivalent to blasters, though. On the BCs certainly with 13km range for rage ass. But on the caracal thats 20km and on the cerb 30km. The range bonus of the missile cruiser makes the "shortrange" missiles a bit to strong IMO. And nevermind the javeling ammo. Right now you get there an 550% range boost from t1, from 15 to 100 km. Which is way too much. To compare, the range boost of jav rockets is 180% and the jav torps 150%.
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:12:00 - [246] Originally by: Galea Scorpii How about you go back to playing WoW! Are you related to Black Scorpio? ...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:19:00 - [247] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there! Ah, I see the trolls are waking up again. My example was just to show that if you think it's ok that the Gallente BC does t1 cruiser damage, then you should have no problem with the Caldari BC also being dropped down to Caracal level. Only fair, after all. And no, I don't want the Drake nerfed. But since it does HAC-equivalent damage, I damn well want the same for all the other tier2's also. The others are already pretty much there, Myrmidon is not. If needs be, I'm ok with it losing a turret hardpoint (5 -> 4 turrets). But it absolutely needs the bigger drone bay in order to function as a drone BC. Drake is pretty much equal to Cerberus. Myrmidon is a slightly boosted Vexor (t1 cruiser). That's the mismatch, and it needs correcting. If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:23:00 - [248] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Umm, what? The Brutix sucks, in general. Sure it has high dps if it gets to range, but it moves like a pig even with MWD and is very cap-dependent. I'd give pretty even odds in a Ferox vs Brutix fight, totally dependent on tactics, fittings and pilot skill. I don't fly the Ferox myself, but one of my corpmates does and she racks up a nice amount of kills with her Ferox. She even took on an Absolution (by mistake :) and survived to tell the tale (had to run, though). And anyways: even if there was an imbalance (which I doubt exists), what has that got to do with anything. In your logic, is it ok to have a new ship clearly gimped because some of the older ships are good? What kind of half-assed logic is that? How would you like it if the new Caldari battleship sucked totally, and people would respond to your complaints with "well, you guys already have the Raven, stop complaining!"? Buddy, check the speeds on the Brutix and the Ferox and don't talk me about ship speeds... And if you went a step further than your nose, I am saying that you aren't somehow complaining when you get the ZOMG ships, but ohhh whine as usually when you don't have another winner over all in a new ship that is coming out. And yes the Brutix is a much, much much better ship in 1v1 vs the Ferox! Ask anyone, including your friend, the Ferox pilot!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:24:00 - [249] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. On the contrary, that was exactly the point that see Heavy misiles are a short range weapon. No they are not. And 60 km is easy with heavy misiles, 70km is a more realistic number. Add all misile skills to lvl 4-5 and take in account occasional ship bonuses. Not actually reading the post 4tl! If you can get Heavy Assault Missiles to go 60km I'm pretty impressed. That's what, 30-40km/sec velocity since their flight time is 2-3 seconds. Who cares how far your Heavy missiles go. We weren't talking about them.
Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:26:00 - [250] Originally by: Razin Originally by: Galea Scorpii How about you go back to playing WoW! Are you related to Black Scorpio? I can see now why that must be thought.. however no!

Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:32:00 - [251] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining! Actually Zarch is right, Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range and are the missile equivalent of blasters. They're different from heavy missiles. You lose. Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved. Not to mention what kind of retarded idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned). Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:42:00 - [252] Originally by: Black Scorpio If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility. Well, I'd be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details). ...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source). So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:48:00 - [253] Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 27/10/2006 17:49:21 Originally by: Black Scorpio Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved. Not to mention what kind of retarded idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned). Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions! Again you're wrong. Zach and I were both talking about Heavy Assault Missiles. Not the T2 "Fury" heavy missiles. Heavy Assault Missiles come out in Kali. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:50:00 - [254] Quote: Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. Me thinks that Black Scorpio doesn't actually check his facts before posting. Or he simply can't differentiate between two completely seperate types of ammo. Now, Scorpio, on your one hand you have your Heavy Assault Missiles. They have a MAX range (non-rigged) with MAX skills of about 15km on the Drake. Flight time x Velocity on the missiles, while equipped with max skills = 15km. Now, on your other hand, Scorpio, you have Heavy Missiles. Note I left off the word "Assault" in there. You following me? Because if not you're probably going to make a post like you did earlier where you completely disregarded the difference between the two. Flight time x Velocity on the Heavy Missiles while equipped on a Drake and yes, you'll get something in the 60km range. To sum up: Heavy Assault Missiles - Max range 15km on the Drake (non-rigged). Heavy missiles - Max range over 60kmish on the Drake (non-rigged). So when people say that the HAM's (heavy assault missiles) are short range weapons, they are indeed correct. They are the cruiser equivalent of rockets or torpedos, and that right there is why I don't think CCP will be removing the shield resistance bonus and adding a missile velocity bonus to the Drake. The Drake very much seems to have been tailor made for the HAM's. It's PG and CPU are just perfect for fitting 7 of them, and still having room for an acceptable tank. What you'd get with a missile velocity bonus is good DPS (the Harbringer and Hurricane still blow the Drake away when it comes to DPS) at an even greater range. The weakness of a HAM-fitted Drake right now is range, and that's crucial to the way the Devs designed it, in my opinion. In order to get good DPS out of the ship, you have to close within 15km of your target on the slowest and most cumbersome of the Tier 2 BC's. So what does that mean? Well...you could always have a dedicated Rapier assigned to you webbing the target to oblivion and back, but balance issues need to set aside a teammate from the equation. Instead, if you want to close in on any of the other Battlecruisers or below, you're going to need to fit an AB or MWD. With a passive setup, you don't have the PG for a MWD, meaning that you are forced to go active. And with an AB fitted, any BC or below that also has one is going to run circles around you. As such, you're sacrificing tank in order to fit a module needed to close in on your target. This carries over to missions/complexes too. How many times have NPCs in those orbitted you at 20-30km? From my experience, there is always at least one type of NPC in missions/complexes that orbits you at that distance. The Drake, in a full-tank no propulsion-boosted setup won't be able to close on them. ;) So if you're fitting HAM's, you're not fitting a full tank.
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:52:00 - [255] Edited by: Temo Jick on 27/10/2006 17:54:31 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility. Well, I'd be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details). ...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source). So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper. Take all its high slots for all I care. I just want a working drone boat. Edit: just inserted the word 'working' thats rather important.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:55:00 - [256] Originally by: Temo Jick Take all its high slots for all I care. I just want a working drone boat. Amen to that.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:55:00 - [257] The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. Myrmidon: remove one turret (leaves 4 guns, 4 utility). Boost drone bay to 175-200m3. That would give the all-important 5th heavy drone and (even more importantly) the spare drones. The loss of a turret compensates for the added drone DPS. It could now properly function as a drone boat, while still having some non-drone firepower. Comments? Any problems with this?
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:59:00 - [258] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility. Well, I'd be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details). ...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source). So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper. More like a max of 6 highs at best is enough for that type of ship! Utility or not. Sometimes a NOS does more damage than a turret... hm... what a thought...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:00:00 - [259] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 27/10/2006 17:49:21 Originally by: Black Scorpio Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved. Not to mention what kind of retarded idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned). Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions! Again you're wrong. Zach and I were both talking about Heavy Assault Missiles. Not the T2 "Fury" heavy missiles. Heavy Assault Missiles come out in Kali. Well maybe if you clarify what you are talking about then people will understand you. And yes the current Heavy misiles are called Heavy Assault Misiles too!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:02:00 - [260] Originally by: Black Scorpio More like a max of 6 highs at best is enough for that type of ship! Utility or not. Sometimes a NOS does more damage than a turret... hm... what a thought... The Myrmidon's relatively small grid already limits the number of med nosfes you can fit, they need a lot of grid per module.

Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:07:00 - [261] Originally by: Calculon Quote: This carries over to missions/complexes too. How many times have NPCs in those orbitted you at 20-30km? From my experience, there is always at least one type of NPC in missions/complexes that orbits you at that distance. The Drake, in a full-tank no propulsion-boosted setup won't be able to close on them. ;) So if you're fitting HAM's, you're not fitting a full tank. Dude, I really don't care about complexes, If i have to go through one, say for Cosmos missions that allow up to a BC I'll just jump in my Nighthawk. Much more easier. + I like the leather upholstery and the ivory on the inside of it too If anyone circles me at 15-20km I just use regular T1 Heavies, hell I use them anyway, b/c of the other variety's cumbersome limitations!
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:12:00 - [262] Just remember that you can't swap out to regular heavies in using the Heavy Assault Launcher. It's designed for Heavy Assault Missiles only, as far as I can tell. Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :)
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:23:00 - [263] IMO, pretty much any change to the Myrmidon would be an improvement. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:31:00 - [264] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Calculon Just remember that you can't swap out to regular heavies in using the Heavy Assault Launcher. It's designed for Heavy Assault Missiles only, as far as I can tell. Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :) Can't wait for all these apparently "great" improvements I still don't see a problem, we'll just see 4x HM 3x HAM setups and the like. Which is a good thing... I mean, how many variations of a Raven setup are there? What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:36:00 - [265] Originally by: Calculon ....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :) Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults.
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:50:00 - [266] Originally by: Black Scorpio Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. You just compleatly owned yourself. He isn't talking about heavy missiles, hence the reason he says heavy _assault_ missiles, which _are_ short range. Their new. #1 reason not to be a rude ***** is because you might be ill-informed, or fail to understand what is going on, and then look like a total fool.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:54:00 - [267] Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36 7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt what about the absolution? What about the absolution? This thread is about the new Battlecruisers.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:59:00 - [268] Originally by: Illuminaty Originally by: Black Scorpio Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. You just compleatly owned yourself. He isn't talking about heavy missiles, hence the reason he says heavy _assault_ missiles, which _are_ short range. Their new. #1 reason not to be a rude ***** is because you might be ill-informed, or fail to understand what is going on, and then look like a total fool. Aahahahah, you totally got me, uhh,, wait this remark of y ours is not funny, It's crap!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:00:00 - [269] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Calculon ....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :) Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults. I also hope your alt that you post off gets deleted by mistake when they implement Kali!
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:07:00 - [270] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining! Instead of throwing around your insults and hypocracy (missile launcher skills on 1? gallente alts? etc etc how is that not flaming?) stop and LISTEN. Heavy ASSAULT Missiles not Heavy Missiles You know, those new missiles that have been added? Or perhaps you were too busy flaming to look at all the changes? Go look at the stats on the new missiles and then tell me how you are going to fire them out to 60km. Zarch AlDain

Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:13:00 - [271] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Calculon ....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :) Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults. Aramendel, I'm willing to bet that the 100km range is incorrect. I'm betting that we'll be looking at something closer to 50km for the T2 precisions, rather than 100km. 50km is still quite a ways, but 100km is a bit rediculous.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:14:00 - [272] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining! Instead of throwing around your insults and hypocracy (missile launcher skills on 1? gallente alts? etc etc how is that not flaming?) stop and LISTEN. Heavy ASSAULT Missiles not Heavy Missiles You know, those new missiles that have been added? Or perhaps you were too busy flaming to look at all the changes? Go look at the stats on the new missiles and then tell me how you are going to fire them out to 60km. I'm listening oh Friend of Everyone!
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:22:00 - [273] Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous. Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target. "I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!" As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship. CEO - Art of War
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:32:00 - [274] Originally by: Nebuli Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous. Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target. "I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!" As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship. That will be fun actually a totally drone boat with no high slots, ... get as much drone space as you want then :) heh :) A nice specialized ship that in masses would be nearly indestructible... small carriers... In this case should also get a distance control bonus. You people starting to like me yet?
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:43:00 - [275] Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
SmokeDog	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:43:00 - [276] Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though.
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [277] Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. I think he was coming around to the drone side a bit there, lets not scare him off ^.^ To Smokedog, with just level one in BC the Myrmidon will be just as bad off. Ship bonuses make a huge differances.
Max Hardcase Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [278] Myrmidon : Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY ! Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3. No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume. The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things. Fixed ! Next problem please.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [279] Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:55:00 - [280] Originally by: SmokeDog Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though. Well, with 2 BCU2 and rage you can get over 600 dps with max skills (and 5 hobgoblins). With javelin assaults you can push it to almost 500 dps for up to 60 km atm.

Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:57:00 - [281] Originally by: Max Hardcase Myrmidon : Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY ! Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3. No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume. The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things. Fixed ! Next problem please. Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered. CEO - Art of War
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:58:00 - [282] Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours. YAYYY
Pattern Clarc The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:59:00 - [283] moved.... Basically This would be awesome.... 11-16% damage modifer with the same size drone bay. or "Allows the operatation of 1 more drone" With the drone bay of 120m3 That means 2 waves of 6 medium drones.. Or one wave of ultra gank 4 heavies and 2 mediums... With no gun/missile bonuses, I think this would be inline with the other teir 2 battlecruisers... It doesn't break lore. The domi gets 2 damage bonuses, hence the myrmidon shouldn't out dps it with 4 heavies and 2 mediums +drone damage bonus and medium guns... It also puts to bed the "omg, 5 heavies, but liek, whats the point of the domi" argument even though it's already a flamsy one tbh. It's something new and exciting and innovativly redefines the "drone boat" concept... i'd like to see 6 drones on the hype too, however thats another story... Feel free to work out the maths and the combat implications of this idea! I'd also like to know myself!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:59:00 - [284] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: SmokeDog Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though. Well, with 2 BCU2 and rage you can get over 600 dps with max skills (and 5 hobgoblins). With javelin assaults you can push it to almost 500 dps for up to 60 km atm. Hey Alt, what is the penalty again for using the Rage "HAM"s that you so much push forward?
Captain Raynor	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:02:00 - [285] Originally by: Temo Jick Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. I think he was coming around to the drone side a bit there, lets not scare him off ^.^ To Smokedog, with just level one in BC the Myrmidon will be just as bad off. Ship bonuses make a huge differances. Yes I know, I'm just saying that the DPS on the Drake is good but not really spectacular.. I have 15mil in missile op, but my skills for Drake blow at the moment (bcruiser 1, ham 2), 300 DPS isn't bad for my current skill level with the ship + weapons, but I don't see the DPS really getting much higher than 500 with a max range of 15KM.. people are talking like the Drake is a 1k DPS ship or something. =P Drake + Rage Heavy Assault is probably going to be pretty good though vs battleships.. The real Jim Raynor.
Max Hardcase Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:06:00 - [286] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Max Hardcase Myrmidon : Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY ! Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3. No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume. The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things. Fixed ! Next problem please. Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered. Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ? Seriously though the limitations of bonus to "correct size" drone types should have been done a long time ago. It makes sense for guns and launchers, makes sense for drones as well. Hmm if they really want to make it a standoff Droneboat why not add a 10%/level to drone MWD speed as well
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:12:00 - [287] The fact is that you can already use heavy drones on the Myrmidon. I don't see how adding an extra heavy is making it uber. I don't see a problem with making it a mini-domi. After all, it doesn't have a hybrid bonus like the domi. Like I've said in previous posts, giving the Myrmidon a large drone bay doesn't increase the DPS all that much. It just makes sure that it has extras to use. Although, I personally think the rep bonus is a nerf in itself considering the HP increases. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:14:00 - [288] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 20:16:44 Originally by: Max Hardcase Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ? You're not being totally clear here. If you mean that the Myr will be a Dom if it can use 5 heavy drones, you're forgetting: - 5 med guns with no damage bonus - 6 large guns with +5%/lvl damage bonus That's a big difference. The Myr needs 5 heavy drones. Remove a turret if you must, but it needs those 5 heavies plus some spares. The other suggested fixes have problems. Boosting the drone bonus but having it only apply to med drones can lead to balance problems, do you really want med drones that do close-to-heavy damage while still traveling at med drone speeds? Probably not, if you're on the receiving end. And as for giving the ship >5 drones it can control, I'm not sure the devs want large drone swarms -- getting rid of them was the whole point of the last big drone change. If the Myr is supposed to be a drone BC, it needs to be a "mini-Dominix". Now it's a Vexor with some chrome and furry dice.
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:17:00 - [289] +1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:20:00 - [290] Originally by: Centurin +1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. Oh yeah.

Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:21:00 - [291] Originally by: Centurin +1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. not one more drone per level, just a static extra drone for the battlecruiser skill
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:23:00 - [292] Edited by: Temo Jick on 27/10/2006 20:25:54 Originally by: Max Hardcase Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Max Hardcase Myrmidon : Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY ! Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3. No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume. The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things. Fixed ! Next problem please. Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered. Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ? Seriously though the limitations of bonus to "correct size" drone types should have been done a long time ago. It makes sense for guns and launchers, makes sense for drones as well. Hmm if they really want to make it a standoff Droneboat why not add a 10%/level to drone MWD speed as well It only makes sense for drones if this BC can't field more then 5. Personally I donÆt want that it means more lag and itÆs a step back to eveÆs past, but hay its better then the broken BC we have right now so I'll take it if I have to. BC's so far have not had bigger guns/launchers then cruisers because they could have more of them. But you can only have 5 drones out unless you fly a Guardian Vexor (super rare for a reason) or a carrier. That means a drone ship of the BC class has to either have more medium drones for its damage or bigger drones for its damage. Personally I think more then 5 medium drones would be a more overpowered option then 10 heavyÆs as medium drones are faster smaller have better tracking and you can get tech II with far less training then you need for tech II heavyÆs. Personally I wouldnÆt even use regular heavy drones over regular mediums because of the bad tracking.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:36:00 - [293] Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:39:00 - [294] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:45:25 Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:42:51 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE It could use about 100 more CPU to be equivelent as well[90 or so at max skills], not to mention the capacitor with 7 guns firing 25% faster even at a 50% discount... Then again, ill take what I can get at 7/4/7 with 2100 PG. The problem of course, is then balancing the thing with beam lasers and smaller laser weaponry[which saves more PG per gun than AC's/Artillerys do]. If you decided to fit focused instead of heavies you could fit two 1600 MM plates at 2100 PG. And a similar situation involving the difference between focused medium beams and heavy beams.[DPS difference on both is roughly 30%]. As well the ship wouldnt have a problem fitting heavy beams compared to the hurricane which would struggle to fit the big artillery cannons. Fixing laser PG/CPU use would be a better solution, but 100 CPU/600 PG and 7/4/7 is a good stopgap.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:39:00 - [295] Edited by: Aramendel on 27/10/2006 20:41:25 Originally by: Black Scorpio Hey Alt, what is the penalty again for using the Rage "HAM"s that you so much push forward? Because the other races t2 heavy damage ammo has no penalities.. oh wait. On a sidenote, when did I ever "push the penality" forward? Oh well, I guess I have to talk with the members in my noob starter corp a bit more. Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus Agreed.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:41:00 - [296] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours. YAYYY I know I'm just feeding the troll here, but seriously, you need to grow up. Reading your posts makes me cringe. You have contributed nothing to this thread but ignorance and flames. Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship.
Dwight Hammerhead Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:43:00 - [297] Giev Nighthawk one more missile slot for a total of 7, this allwing it to do more damage than the drake, other than that I dont rly see a reason to fly the expensive nighthawk when u can always go with a fully ensurable T1 version of it. Giev more missile slot.. or bump! _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:44:00 - [298] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:42:51 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE It could use about 100 more CPU to be equivelent as well[90 or so at max skills], not to mention the capacitor with 7 guns firing 25% faster even at a 50% discount... Then again, ill take what I can get at 7/4/7 with 2100 PG. The problem of course, is then balancing the thing with beam lasers and smaller laser weaponry[which saves more PG per gun than AC's/Artillerys do]. If you decided to fit focused instead of heavies you could fit two 1600 MM plates at 2100 PG. And a similar situation involving the difference between focused medium beams and heavy beams.[DPS difference on both is roughly 30%] Fixing laser PG/CPU use would be a better solution, but 100 CPU/600 PG and 7/4/7 is a good stopgap. imho, the limiting factor when fitting amarrian ships should always be CPU and not grid. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:46:00 - [299] Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Giev Nighthawk one more missile slot for a total of 7, this allwing it to do more damage than the drake, other than that I dont rly see a reason to fly the expensive nighthawk when u can always go with a fully ensurable T1 version of it. Giev more missile slot.. or bump! Hear is one reason Role Bonus: 99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need Granted its the only reason i can think of.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:48:00 - [300] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:49:34 Originally by: Grimpak imho, the limiting factor when fitting amarrian ships should always be CPU and not grid. I wont challenge that, i was just trying to show what makes the ships about as comparable in fitting for the largest short range weapons as they are currently running the same slots with about the same damage. The differences with the CPU/PG are that the Hurricane doesnt use cap and uses ammo instead and the Harbinger is slower, and larger

Dwight Hammerhead Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:54:00 - [301] Lol I have a vulture for when i have to fit gang modules, thank you. A tier 2 t1 BC having the same dmg as command ship? I dont see this happening to the other races _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:59:00 - [302] Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Lol I have a vulture for when i have to fit gang modules, thank you. A tier 2 t1 BC having the same dmg as command ship? I dont see this happening to the other races Sorry wasnÆt trying to make an argument against you, caldari ships arenÆt my area of experience. Was just volunteering a reason that sprang to mind.
Evelgrivion Cohort. Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:21:00 - [303] 11 pages of argument and no developer input, just lots of rabbling and argument about the myrmidon's drone bay, the raw destructive power of the drake, bonuses, the Hurricane's speed, and the seeming lack of the need for a ship like the Harbinger as it stands... anything that ive missed? What I would love to see at this point is the opinions of the developers on the subject matter - and with that input a rule of no flaming; reasonable (if passionate) debate over whether or not you agree. Honestly player bickering gets old after awhile... If you could spare some time to talk to us about this Tuxford, TomB, and everyone else involved, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the player input »\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/ Its Cohort. with a C.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:21:00 - [304] Originally by: Butter Dog Reading your posts makes me cringe. You have contributed nothing to this thread but ignorance and flames. So don't read them champ. Of course I am not contributing to your post cause all you do is Whine for more drone space. How can anyone that is not seeing further than their nose contribute towards that.. oh nice another UBER burry all in drones boat. How cool. Maybe you need to do a bit of growing up and use your brain for a chance when fighting, instead of letting the drones to that for ya... pal... Originally by: Butter Dog As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship. I am happy for it. After all you got such an overpowered BC 1 compared to the other races, that now the second one seems under par with the other races. Oh well, stick to your 1st BC. You will save some money from not using the new one anyway.. hah..
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:23:00 - [305] Originally by: Temo Jick Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Lol I have a vulture for when i have to fit gang modules, thank you. A tier 2 t1 BC having the same dmg as command ship? I dont see this happening to the other races Sorry wasnÆt trying to make an argument against you, caldari ships arenÆt my area of experience. Was just volunteering a reason that sprang to mind. Exactly, should we consider that a troll then ?
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:25:00 - [306] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours. YAYYY I know I'm just feeding the troll here, but seriously, you need to grow up. Reading your posts makes me cringe. You have contributed nothing to this thread but ignorance and flames. Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship. Go feed your dog some butter btw! Keep flaming ***ente fanboy, you are getting nothing more on this ship!!!! You'll have to stick to buttering doggies. muhahahhaha
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:25:00 - [307] Originally by: Nebuli Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered. easy it wouldnt. it dont impinge on the domi or hell even the ishtar. Domi can still fit bigger guns and a better tank and the ishtar well its the ishtar heh. -----------------------------------------------
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:32:00 - [308] Originally by: Butter Dog Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship. I'm in total agreement here. Brutix does more damage and has a repper bonus too. Only a Brutix needs a MWD and booster charges to do that, both of which don't work for missions. Vexors are too fragile to run level 3 missions, and Dominix are too expensive on level 2 income. So thats really what the Myr is. A level 3 mission boat. Only having 100m3 of drone space on a mission boat isn't a factor because you just don't lose drones to NPCs. Giving a mission drone boat a 125m3 bay would also mean 'dominix damage' on missions since you don't fit a lot of guns or fire them much. So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge.
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:42:00 - [309] Originally by: Illuminaty Originally by: Butter Dog Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship. I'm in total agreement here. Brutix does more damage and has a repper bonus too. Only a Brutix needs a MWD and booster charges to do that, both of which don't work for missions. Vexors are too fragile to run level 3 missions, and Dominix are too expensive on level 2 income. So thats really what the Myr is. A level 3 mission boat. Only having 100m3 of drone space on a mission boat isn't a factor because you just don't lose drones to NPCs. Giving a mission drone boat a 125m3 bay would also mean 'dominix damage' on missions since you don't fit a lot of guns or fire them much. So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge. Make that a medium mining barge. In most cases the dommie will out do that too.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:45:00 - [310] Originally by: Illuminaty So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge. Brutix out mines it. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson

Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:51:00 - [311] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Illuminaty So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge. Brutix out mines it. Not when your mining red crosses in a mission instead of veldspar rocks in a belt.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:16:00 - [312] Edited by: Derran on 27/10/2006 22:17:31 Originally by: Alex Harumichi How about you use yours and tell me how 5 heavy + 5 med hybrids with no damage bonus equals the DPS of 5 heavy drone + 6 large hybrid with +5% per level damage bonus, eh? I pretty much fly only Gallente now. Can you give me a setup of a Dominix that actually works with large hybrids AND a tank that shows proves the point you are trying to make? I hope you don't mean heavy electron IIs either. Bleach. Myrmidon setup I am considering is T2 ACs with some NOS since it doesn't have a hybrid damage bonus anyway. Should save cap and grid and leave plenty of CPU and Grid for a heavy tank.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:47:00 - [313] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 22:54:17 Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 22:47:34 Originally by: Evelgrivion the seeming lack of the need for a ship like the Harbinger as it stands... anything that ive missed? No, everyone pretty much gets the point that the Harbinger is a great addition the the amarri line of ships. It fills a hole in the BC classification for ammar and fits in line with their other similar ships. Maybe you are thinking of the Abaddon? That goes in the BS thread though. The problem with the Harbinger is not that there is no point to it, the problem is that is is completly overshadowed by the Hurricane, and needs to be made better or made unique[7/4/7 or 8 turrets with cap and PG to fit it] to compete with the other Teir 2 battlecruisers. edit: The easiest fix is to simply change the CPU/PG requirements for pulse lasers to be more similar to autocannons or comparable blasters [sans ammo differences, heavy pulses do less damage than Heavy Electron Blasters for instance, blasters sacrifice a lot of range, but the weakest version is stronger than the strongest laser so...]. Co-incidentaly, this also fixes the maller, omen, and prophesy
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 23:25:00 - [314] Originally by: Hllaxiu Brutix out mines it. Yep, done it myself a few times when about the only useful fitting you could get on a brutix was 7x miner II's. However, addressing the topic at hand, the myrmidon. I think many are seeing 8x medium nos II on this thing and that's what's driving them insane, because so far I've not seen really a good reason for it to not have a larger drone bay than it currently has. Since it has no gun bonus, this means by design nearly all of it's firepower comes from drones. I'll state some numbers for those who don't know; maximum drone damage (5x ogre II, BC 5, drone interfacing 5, heavy drones 5, gallente drone specalization 5) is 475.2 DPS. You can ofc add guns on it to get more DPS, but the lack of a ship bonus means that you won't be getting a huge return out of this. The damage output of this ship is and will be driven by it's drones. This is the issue that it has currently is that with a 100m3 drone bay, same skills as above, using medium drones that DPS is 237.6. It's just not comparable. Now, you can use 4x Ogre II and get 380.16, which isn't that bad, but you will have no reloads and no backup. This is a key because with combat becoming longer and longer it makes more and more sense to shoot the drones. If you're going to be fighting a ship which uses a weapon system that is able to be targetable and destroyable, it's really foolish not to do so if you can as killing the drones negates most of the offensive firepower. After the drones are done the myrmidon is also done, for the most part. So the situation currently is that with the ship as currently designed you have two options; you can either have low DPS and have a reserve or other drone options, or have average-low DPS compared to other BC and have no reserve and no options leaving you open to being negated by a smart opponent. When you run the numbers in comparison the 475 DPS from drones if it were to be able to use 5 Ogre II is not excessive. It should be noted, again, this is with max drone skills, and most players won't be able to do this in reality. In addition, due to tactical realities, Ogre II's aren't always the smart weapon of choice, and therefore the theoritical max damage DPS will frequently be lower. It therefore can be concluded that 5x heavy drones in of itself is not imbalancing. Where it could become unbalanced is when you bring in other factors, and this is the area that needs to be addressed. If the drone bay is to be expanded to a size that I think is worthwile, it's important to limit the offensive output from other sources, either guns or by other means (nos/neut). What I think is the best way to do this is changing the ship to the following configuration: Bonuses - No changes. Done bay - 175m3. This is the same drone bay size as a typhoon, which isn't even a drone ship. This gives you 5x heavy w/ 2 reloads, if desired, or the ability to use a mixture of other drone sizes for flexibility. Slot configuration - 8x highslots is not only too many but also more than a few are fairly useless. Change this to 6 highslots, 5 midslots and 6 lowslots. This would enable it to tank better than the brutix in exchange for the lower DPS. Make all highslots turret hardpoints - frankly, having 6 obvious turret hardpoints on the ship and only being able to use 5 just looks dumb from a athestic standpoint. Powergrid - REDUCE. This is a key. In order to prevent the DPS from increasing to unreasonable levels the gun caliber size must be limited and the number of nosses must also be limited by keeping the powergrid output low. By doing this you end up with a ship that does good DPS, has the drone bay to do it's job effectively, and overall works far better than what is proposed now. Raptor and Ares Fix
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 23:29:00 - [315] Originally by: Goumindong No, everyone pretty much gets the point that the Harbinger is a great addition the the amarri line of ships. It fills a hole in the BC classification for ammar and fits in line with their other similar ships. Maybe you are thinking of the Abaddon? That goes in the BS thread though. The problem with the Harbinger is not that there is no point to it, the problem is that is is completly overshadowed by the Hurricane, and needs to be made better or made unique[7/4/7 or 8 turrets with cap and PG to fit it] to compete with the other Teir 2 battlecruisers. It really makes no sense that the minmatar BC and the amarr BC have the same number of lowslots - matter of fact their slot distribution is identical, which is again odd. The DPS of the hurricane is and always will be superior than the harbinger because it has 2 damage bonuses and the amarr ship doesn't. What the amarr ship should do is tank better, due to cap and more importantly, more low slots do do it with. 7/4/7 seems to be a smart way to go, for starters. Raptor and Ares Fix
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 23:32:00 - [316] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE harbinger problems can be say more loud but not more clear It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Golden Helmet Caldari DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:19:00 - [317] not gonna sort through on all the topics here. but this is regarding the Gallente BC: basicly, just add 25m^3 to the drone bay, and change the armor rep bonus to a hybrid bonus (preferably damage). it won't overpower it completely, because it's drone bay is still relativly small, but it would increase it's DPS while nerfing it's tank a touch. just my opinion on it, havent gotten to try the other BC's yet.
Elechia	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:35:00 - [318] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE Yup. Matari shouldnt have the same amount of low slots AND more grid than the Amarr BC after fitting. Harbinger needs this or it will be completely outclassed by the Hurricane. Elechia
Kooraia	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:42:00 - [319] Edited by: Kooraia on 28/10/2006 00:43:59 Myr: I would change the following: - Change all Drone Mods to High Slot Items - Add Dronebay m3 but... - Give Damage Bonus 10% to light and Med and 5% to Heavy and Sentry - Remove one Turret HP (but not the HP itself) Why: - Droneboats should use Dronemods in High and not Guns - The existing Bay is far to small to survive a fight - Add a "little" nerf for using Heavys on it, Drone Mods in high should compensate the missing guns - See above /ignoring on for all troll/flames from the small black insect alts
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 01:38:00 - [320] Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. sounds like a good idea to me. seeing how similar those two ships are the advantage of having capless weapons which on top of it deal almost the same ammount of damage in damagetypes good against armor is far too big here. alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger: 8/3/8 slots 8 turrets obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here. very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype.

Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.10.28 02:29:00 - [321] All the teir II BC's should get a dedicated modual! Once activated it would permanently deactivate "Black Scorpio's" Forum access. Oh the humanity
Care Blind Gallente Yumpalistic Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.28 02:54:00 - [322] Edited by: Care Blind on 28/10/2006 02:54:51 why, oh why, isn't anyone taking into consideration THE EFFECT OF THE CHANGES BEING DISCUSSED ON THE COMMAND SHIPS. this is getting on my nerves beyond belief.. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. are you kidding me.. the poor absolution
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:19:00 - [323] Edited by: Goumindong on 28/10/2006 03:19:56 Originally by: Care Blind Edited by: Care Blind on 28/10/2006 02:54:51 why, oh why, isn't anyone taking into consideration THE EFFECT OF THE CHANGES BEING DISCUSSED ON THE COMMAND SHIPS. this is getting on my nerves beyond belief.. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. are you kidding me.. the poor absolution Or... Put the Hurricane in the game The poor absolution. Absolution will still do more damage at command ships 5[just like the Hurricane issue], and will have loads better tank[or much more damage and still a better tank] Just about everything on the prophesy platform needs to be looked at with regards to powergrid and function, and the absolution ought to be on the Harbinger platform. However, that doesnt change issue at hand, which is the new teir 2 battlecruisers, and the Harbinger is a joke compared to the Hurricane without changes.
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:52:00 - [324] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. sounds like a good idea to me. seeing how similar those two ships are the advantage of having capless weapons which on top of it deal almost the same ammount of damage in damagetypes good against armor is far too big here. alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger: 8/3/8 slots 8 turrets obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here. very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype. Hell no. For the very first time we have a T1 medium ship with 4 med slots, it's nothing we should wanna change. 7 turrets is just fine, but the ship needs more grid to fit the best turrets. Focus pulse is hardly a valid option. Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.28 05:52:00 - [325] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne sounds like a good idea to me. seeing how similar those two ships are the advantage of having capless weapons which on top of it deal almost the same ammount of damage in damagetypes good against armor is far too big here. alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger: 8/3/8 slots 8 turrets obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here. very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype. Does it bug anyone else that a battleship should have exactly the same slot layout as a battlecruiser? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Lrootrnas	Posted - 2006.10.28 07:39:00 - [326] 3 mids will make the ship suck sweaty simian reproductive organs, even if you gave it 12 highs and the hardpoints/fitting to use them. Hands off the 4th mid you knuckledraggers Nyxus' proposal ftw. Oh and there is no need to take a turret off the Myrm when you give it 250m3 drone bay. BCs should outdamage HACs, not equal them... look at all the weak BCs, they have one thing in common - they don't outdamage the type-equivalent HAC. Give it a 6th turret, but keep the fittings the same, perfecto.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 07:40:00 - [327] Edited by: keepiru on 28/10/2006 07:40:07 Stupid alt >_< ^^^^^ was me ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.10.28 08:05:00 - [328] Repost! Regarding the Myrmidon... and how to balance it better ( havent flown 1, just going by everyones whinging) Ok so we've all seen the absolute power of an ECM dominix, without blasters (vampadomi) it has enough DPS to kill you eventually while keeping you jammed and in place comfortably, The new ECM Changes may nerf this a bit by making it a less viable ECM platform. Gallente cruisers have crap midslots so suck at ECM. The ships getting buffed up for ECM are all caldari, the blackbird is getting love as well as its counterparts, so ecm will be more viable, fair enough.... Why not fix the myrmidon this way? Give it ECM Bonus's and enough midslots to use them... Or is ECM only for the caldari now? Gallente will want some ECM boats and i for one love using it, i havent used the myrmidon but with good ecm/drone capabilitys it could be quite an effective ship both solo in and gangs in a support role... Let me know what you think, and afterall, theres only so much you can do with drones, putting the myrmidon between vexor and dominix will just make it crap... give us 2 advantages and we'll love it! Very Happy I'm gonna trust CCP to fix it sooner or later, they havent let me down yet, so lets try and be constructive thanks (one last thing... the most damaging setup you can put on a vexor is 2 heavys, 2 mediums and 1 light drone, this is good for better damage but that 1 light drone means that as assault ship can eat your face and your heavy drones... the extra 25m3 is enough for a whole wave of lights.... lets not be too hasty....)
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:13:00 - [329] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger: 8/3/8 slots 8 turrets obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here. very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype. 4 mids !!!!!!! finally we get a ship with 4 mids !!! dont take it i would love 7/4/7 since im not going to use the utility never but if its not posible then dont touch it and let it remain as 8/4/6! It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Mesasone Gallente Vogon Deconstruction Fleet Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:19:00 - [330] ECM is the caldari racial electronic warfare, and will not likely be given a bonus on a gallente ship. Although, Sensor dampening would be an option. However, the EW + drones combo is pretty overpowered, less with non-jamming types of EW, but none the less. Also, since nos now has more time to do it's thing (effectively buffing it)... let's not give birth to a new i-win platform. I love the domi, but I'm sick of everyone flying it, and I'm sick of the fact that half the people fly it because they almost have to be competitive in PVP. I really like the idea of BCs sort of being a poor mans HAC, slightly weaker in some aspect, stronger in others, overall similar flying styles with some subtile differences. To bring the Myrmidon in the same playing field as the Ishtar, I would give it the following bonii: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints (no change) and 25m3 additional dronebay per level, with a base of 75m3. So it tops out at 200m3 with BC5. Remove one turret hardpoint, and move one highslot to a low slot. Perhaps adjust fitting, as needed. Now the Myrmidon can field 5 heavy drones, which with maxed out skills will give you 475 DPS. Oh baby. C'mon guys, the other BCs can match and surpass this pretty easily, don't be hating on the Myrmidon just because the nos + ecm + drone + tank setup found on the domi these days is overpowered. Killing drones has now become an even more viable option with the HP increase and subsequent increased combat length; please keep that in mind. With these bonii, you would max out at 200m3 - not enough to carry to multiple full waves of heavies, but one and 3 spares, or a mix of different drones. Mean while, the Domi can fit 375m3 or three full waves, as can the Ishtar with HAC 5. Of course the poor EOS is behind both the Ishtar with a max of 300m3 for it's dronebay, and no drone damage bonus (rightfully so with the lack of damage bonus, I might add), but that's another issue altogther. You've reduced it's turret firepower, which wasn't exactly astounding to begin with. With it's damage bonus, the Ishtar has 3.75 'raw' turrets, while the Myrmidon has 4 but no damage bonus, making them fairly equal. The Ishtar retains signficantly higher mobility, a built in tank, and a lower sig radius (less than half!), while the Myrmidon has a significant HP advantage 5625 versus 1798(?) and six lows to mount some kind of tank/fitting mods in. Now, you have a poor mans Ishtar. With nearly double the dronebay, higher speed, greater agility, the Ishtar remains a superior ship by being mobile, and better geared to longer tours away from home, as it won't lose most of it's drone capacity if things get too hot, and it has to bail. I'm not sure which would tank better - the Myrmidon has alot of HP, and if tech 2 ships only get the 25% HP boost, it could be interesting. The built in resistances of the Isthar will play a BIG part, though. While the Myrmidon will slightly outdamage the Isthar on paper, the Isthar being so much more mobile will be much more viable with blasters than the Myrmidon, negating the slight DPS advantage the Myrmidon would have with it's 4 turret hardpoints, which would also come with increased cap and ammo usage I might add. I think it's at least worth testing, personally.

Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:01:00 - [331] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 28/10/2006 10:03:51 eh what i was trying to post back there was 8/3/7 8 turrets was a bit late and apparently i having having problems with the 6+1=7 situation :) also: yes its nice to have 4 meds instead of the usual 3. however as it is right now with the 7 turrets the ship will barely outdamge the hurricane on raw dps while using a lot more cap and being pretty similar in everything else. i would prefer it if it would at least have a serious damage advantage to counter that.
Rahjadan Shardur Minmatar Poisoned Heart	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:01:00 - [332] Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:33:28 <snip> And as to why Harbinger is not up to par. Compare with Hurricane using some viable setups (using Kali ammo stats) Harbinger 7x Heavy Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 601.2 DPS Hurricane 7x 220mm II w/ Hail + 1x Gyrostab II + 1x Hammerhead II + 4x Hobgoblin II = 579.8 DPS So what does the Harbinger sacrifice for that paltry dmg advantage? Hurricane can fit MAR II + 1600mm Tungsten + 10mn MWD II + Med Nos II. Harbinger only has room for MAR II and 10MN AB II. No room for plate or med NOS. So Hurricane tanks better, goes faster, much more cap, much less vulnerable to tracking disruptors, and has smaller sig radius. Tbh why would you choose to fly Harbinger? And what if Harbinger dropped down to Focused Medium Pulse II? Harbinger 7x Focused Medium Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 536.8 DPS Now it can fit a 1600mm plate, but it does less DPS than Hurricane. Whether you choose to fit MWD or AB, it still can't fill it's last high slot with a Med NOS. And it still has less cap available compared to Hurricane. Simply outclassed. Anyone else noticed that the Brutix is doing more damage than Harbinger and Hurricane? ------------------ Life is but a dream...
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:31:00 - [333] No. 3 mids = suck. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:42:00 - [334] Originally by: keepiru No. 3 mids = suck. the geddon would like to disagree with you there. i understand that 3 medslots are not all that great. seeing how i fly only amarrian ships i am very well aware of the problems you face with only a few medslots. if the rest of the ship is a good enough it can make up for that though. as i understand it the ship is supposed to be a gank platform somewhere between omen and geddon. 8/3/7 with a serious damage advantage would fit that better than 7/4/7 with better utility. especially considering how very close the harbinger and hurricane are. anyway either way is fine with me. looking at the ship alone it already seems decent now. its just when you compare it to its obvious counterpart the hurricane that you realize its harsh shortcomings.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:05:00 - [335] No, 3 mids are ok on a BS that does around 1000hp damage before the 50% hp boost. On a BC, in a world with the 50% hp boost, its suck. If you cant have speed mod + injector + web + scrambler you are far more gimped compared to other BCs than with 7 guns and 4 mids, because if you gave the stuff to hold your enemy and dictate range you will ALWAYS cap out before you kill any other BC. Heck, a prophecy will pwn you. Simply not viable in Kali. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:41:00 - [336] well its not like laserboats are good at dictating range anyway. in most cases you cant really go for an mwd due to fitting and cap constraints. anyway like i said earlier 7-4-7 and a serious boost to grid may work as well/maybe even better. actually i would also up the max cap or cap recharge a bit more in this case. i was just trying to show another possibility to overcome its obvious problems. right now the ship is lacking a lot compared to the hurricane.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:50:00 - [337] Meh, 7 Foc. Med. Pulse II, Mwd, Jector and 2 reps fits, that's good enough for me fitting wise. Sure, you cant fit Heavy pulses mwd dual reps and injector, but then the hurricane has to fit 220s instead of 425s for the same fit. Heavy Beam IIs fit better than Tach IIs on amarr battleships, so as far as I'm concerned, the PG/CPU right now is fine, but it needs either: 8th high moved to low, for a 7/4/7 setup 8th turret back and the grid/cpu to use it And a small cap boost, 250 cap over the hurricane don't cut it. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:04:00 - [338] Originally by: keepiru Meh, 7 Foc. Med. Pulse II, Mwd, Jector and 2 reps fits, that's good enough for me fitting wise. Sure, you cant fit Heavy pulses mwd dual reps and injector, but then the hurricane has to fit 220s instead of 425s for the same fit. yes but if you drop to focused med pulses and 220mm autocannons the harbinger doesnt even get to keep the samll raw dps advantage it has with heavy pulse vs 425mm. and while the mwd helps with keeping range you suffer a hard cap penalty and your guns still use a lot more cap than autocannons while doing less desireable damagetypes. Originally by: keepiru it needs either: 8th high moved to low, for a 7/4/7 setup 8th turret back and the grid/cpu to use it And a small cap boost, 250 cap over the hurricane don't cut it. agreed again. just not sure if and 8th turret would not be too much if it has 4 meds.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:13:00 - [339] No, I dont think it would be. Just depends on which direction the devs want to take it, 7 lows means it does comparable DPS to hurricane but with a slightly better tank, 8 guns means more damage but same tank that doesn't last as long. Considering that DPS comparisons don't count the T2 heavy assault launcher on the Hurricane, I dont think that 14% better DPS from just the guns would be out of line considering you'll still have bigger cap draw and be nos-less by necessity in order to do that damage. Incidentally, the Brutix needs enough grid to fit full Ions with mwd jector and dual reps or it'll be smashed into oblivion. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:15:00 - [340] Originally by: madaluap If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay! Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc. It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. And its about damn time Gallente got put in their place. Having most of your ships being solopwn mobile NOS/ECM/Drones spamming monsters, you DESERVE a crap ship for a change. Let the other 3 races have their cake for once. Den ________________________________________

Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:21:00 - [341] Also, I dont get why it isnt glaringly obvious to the devs that Tier 1 Battlecruisers and Command Ships now need a complete overhaul. Whats the point in releasing a new line of T1 ships that makes the upper T2 BC's hopelessly redundant for a fraction of the price (and while being FULLY insurable??) Seems ludicrous to me. Den ________________________________________
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:23:00 - [342] Awww, Den needs a hug ^_^ ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:25:00 - [343] im too lazy to read whole thread so don't hug me drake - ok [my alt will fly this and ship is awesome] hurricane - OK [my personal choice!] harbringer - ok? i don't know maybe more grid myrmidon - bull** need bigger dronebay or its PRETTY freakin' useless It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by:** Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:37:00 - [344] Edited by: Jacob Holland on 28/10/2006 12:39:36 How about this for the Myrmidon: Keep the dronebay as is, change the drone bonus so that it applies to light and medium drones only (hold your complaints that it's just an oversized Vexor for a moment please)... Then boost the percentage on the bonus. The 10% bonus comes from the old +1 drone per level (Drones [5] gives you five drones, drone interfacing [5] gives you five double effectiveness drones, equivalent to the ten it used to, and then the ship bonus boosts that by 50% to the equivalent of the fifteen drones the Domi used to run). Assuming however that the bonus isn't fixed to allow the drone nerf to be rolled back there is now no reason why it has to be 10%. If the bonus were to be increased to 15%/level then the drone damage would beat that of the Vexor, it wouldn't actually be much but it would be the equivalent of 17.5 drones rather than 15. Even better, boost it to 20%, a 33% boost to drone damage over the Vexor (and if the drone nerf were rolled back you'd have a ship capable of running 20 drones ), you would have five mediums out and five in reserve, better than trying to squeeze four heavies in and gimp your bonuses neh? A 33% damage boost puts it almost equivalent to the Drake (7 launchers with ROF bonus compared to 5 launchers with Kinetic Damage bonus on the Caracal) minus the fact that the Hybrid damage bonus places it equal to the Vexor on that score. Personally I'd use lights, Mediums are too slow and have tracking poor enough (Drone Nav [2], Drone Sharpshooting [4]) that I feel I get more out of lights. It also gives me the option of having yet more in reserve and adding the versatility of a bunch of shield maintenence bots, Damping drones, painting drones or whatever else. Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Jaded	Posted - 2006.10.28 13:31:00 - [345] The harbinger looks great when you only compare it to amarr ships. It doesn't really measure up to the other new bc's, though. Even with the bonus, lasers drain more cap than hybrids. Its second bonus adds ~30% dps, but at the cost of 25% additional cap use. If I'm not mistaken, the other bc's offer comparable dps and tanking while being easier to fit and a lot easier to keep running. I'd like the harbinger (and amarr ships in general, I guess) to get a massive increase in cap size (and thus recharge as well) and a lot more PG, making it the laser platform it's supposed to be.
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.28 14:27:00 - [346] Originally by: Jacob Holland Edited by: Jacob Holland on 28/10/2006 12:39:36 How about this for the Myrmidon: Keep the dronebay as is, change the drone bonus so that it applies to light and medium drones only (hold your complaints that it's just an oversized Vexor for a moment please)... Then boost the percentage on the bonus. The 10% bonus comes from the old +1 drone per level (Drones [5] gives you five drones, drone interfacing [5] gives you five double effectiveness drones, equivalent to the ten it used to, and then the ship bonus boosts that by 50% to the equivalent of the fifteen drones the Domi used to run). Assuming however that the bonus isn't fixed to allow the drone nerf to be rolled back there is now no reason why it has to be 10%. If the bonus were to be increased to 15%/level then the drone damage would beat that of the Vexor, it wouldn't actually be much but it would be the equivalent of 17.5 drones rather than 15. Even better, boost it to 20%, a 33% boost to drone damage over the Vexor (and if the drone nerf were rolled back you'd have a ship capable of running 20 drones ), you would have five mediums out and five in reserve, better than trying to squeeze four heavies in and gimp your bonuses neh? A 33% damage boost puts it almost equivalent to the Drake (7 launchers with ROF bonus compared to 5 launchers with Kinetic Damage bonus on the Caracal) minus the fact that the Hybrid damage bonus places it equal to the Vexor on that score. Personally I'd use lights, Mediums are too slow and have tracking poor enough (Drone Nav [2], Drone Sharpshooting [4]) that I feel I get more out of lights. It also gives me the option of having yet more in reserve and adding the versatility of a bunch of shield maintenence bots, Damping drones, painting drones or whatever else. against other battlecruisers, light drones would really suck.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 15:50:00 - [347] Originally by: Denrace Also, I dont get why it isnt glaringly obvious to the devs that Tier 1 Battlecruisers and Command Ships now need a complete overhaul. Whats the point in releasing a new line of T1 ships that makes the upper T2 BC's hopelessly redundant for a fraction of the price (and while being FULLY insurable??) you should file a bug report if your absolution doesnt have 2 more bonuses and a lot higher base resists than the harbinger. mine seems to be fine so far.
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.28 15:53:00 - [348] But Mediums at that level wouldn't. I'd use lights - that doesn't mean that lights are the best option It is agreed that with it's current bonuses it doesn't beat the Vexor with mediums and it seems that the drone bay is limited to avoid heavy drones. So is (the equivalent of) 20 medium drones appropriate compared to the Dominix's fifteen heavies? Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Shodana Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:01:00 - [349] Probably been said before, but oh well. Drake with 7L/3t high slot split, 6 mid, 4 low. 5% shield resistance per level and 5% ROF bonus... OMFG. I just left a stain running from the floor to the ceiling. Ferox with 5L/5t high slot split, 5 mid, 4 low. 5% shield resistance per level and 10% to optimal range per level. Ferox is going to become extinct. As is, I have never seen a ferox fit with blasters or rails. Always missile spamming with ewar. So... Why do the caldari have 2 missile spamming BC? Any plans to make the ferox a 7t/3L high slot split now that the caldari have an uber missile spammer or plans to reconfigure the drake to a full turret boat? I don't mind. I am a missile ***** to the core of my being and love the drake's configuration, just seems a bit over the top with 7 launchers, 6 mids, and 4 lows. Not to mention renders the ferox useless.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:14:00 - [350] The Ferox was never intended to be a missile ship. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!

Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:48:00 - [351] Originally by: keepiru The Ferox was never intended to be a missile ship. Correct, people just fit it that way ignoring the bonuses as they prefer EVE on easy mode (missiles). They neglect the fact that a rail/blaster Ferox out damages the missile Ferox by quite a substantial margin.
Shodana Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.28 18:21:00 - [352] Originally by: Calculon Originally by: keepiru The Ferox was never intended to be a missile ship. Correct, people just fit it that way ignoring the bonuses as they prefer EVE on easy mode (missiles). They neglect the fact that a rail/blaster Ferox out damages the missile Ferox by quite a substantial margin. So, that's why it's a 5T/5L split. Give someone the option of something that always hits and they'll run with it -either that or be drone mongers :) If the Drake goes through the with the 7L/3T split, why not give the Ferox 8 highlots in a 7 turret, 3 launcher split, keep the mids and lows as is? Although as you stated, "... they prefer EvE on easy mode... " and will just swap over to the drake. On a side note... give the field command ships the new chassis. Please.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.28 18:37:00 - [353] Originally by: keepiru Meh, 7 Foc. Med. Pulse II, Mwd, Jector and 2 reps fits, that's good enough for me fitting wise. Sure, you cant fit Heavy pulses mwd dual reps and injector, but then the hurricane has to fit 220s instead of 425s for the same fit. Heavy Beam IIs fit better than Tach IIs on amarr battleships, so as far as I'm concerned, the PG/CPU right now is fine, but it needs either: 8th high moved to low, for a 7/4/7 setup 8th turret back and the grid/cpu to use it And a small cap boost, 250 cap over the hurricane don't cut it. Its good enough for you, until you realize that now you are going to be out tanked by a hurricane and out gunned, as well as out speeded, and outsized. As it stands right now, the ship is hundreds of CPU and PG below the Hurricane due to fitting issues with lasers, as well, its lacking in the damage department compared to the hurricane, especialy since the hurricane has the ability to fit gun rigs and the harbinger does not[not on its biggest guns, the Hurricane can fit 3 run rigs depending on calibration on 425's and still beat the Harbinger in terms of overall CPU and PG use at max skills compared to heavy pulses. At t1 rigs, that is between a an extra 33% DPS boost[at no extra ammo consumption] or a 37.5% DPS boost[with a large extra ammo consumption]. If the Harbinger fits Focused Medium Pulses, the Hurricane can fit Dual 180mm Auto cannons fit, 3 damage mods and be using the same amount of PG. In this situation the Harbinger is actualy up 125 PG after fitting...[.914]. Then again, the Hurricane is doing between 73% and 85% more damage[depending on how rigs and ship bonuses stack with each other] with her guns than the Harbinger. So go ahead and fit 7 focused medium pulses, a guy in a hurricane will still out damage you and probably out tank you. Heck, with just dual 180mm's he beats you on powergrid by 30 per gun and outdamages you by 40% over focused medium pulses, with the ship bonus and no rigs.[10% with no ship bonus]
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.10.28 19:11:00 - [354] Originally by: Shodana Probably been said before, but oh well. Drake with 7L/3t high slot split, 6 mid, 4 low. 5% shield resistance per level and 5% ROF bonus... OMFG. I just left a stain running from the floor to the ceiling. Ferox with 5L/5t high slot split, 5 mid, 4 low. 5% shield resistance per level and 10% to optimal range per level. Ferox is going to become extinct. As is, I have never seen a ferox fit with blasters or rails. Always missile spamming with ewar. So... Why do the caldari have 2 missile spamming BC? Any plans to make the ferox a 7t/3L high slot split now that the caldari have an uber missile spammer or plans to reconfigure the drake to a full turret boat? I don't mind. I am a missile ***** to the core of my being and love the drake's configuration, just seems a bit over the top with 7 launchers, 6 mids, and 4 lows. Not to mention renders the ferox useless. Have you actually ever flown a missle ferox before? It's not very strong, it's got pretty horrid dps.
Lrootrnas	Posted - 2006.10.28 19:21:00 - [355] Edited by: Lrootrnas on 28/10/2006 19:24:46
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 19:23:00 - [356] Edited by: keepiru on 28/10/2006 19:24:57 Originally by: Shodana So, that's why it's a 5T/5L split. Give someone the option of something that always hits and they'll run with it -either that or be drone mongers :) If the Drake goes through the with the 7L/3T split, why not give the Ferox 8 highlots in a 7 turret, 3 launcher split, keep the mids and lows as is? Although as you stated, "... they prefer EvE on easy mode... " and will just swap over to the drake. No. Keep the total slots, give 2 more turret hardpoints and remove 2 launchers, add some grid and remove a little CPU. Originally by: Goumindong Its good enough for you, until you realize that now you are going to be out tanked by a hurricane and out gunned, as well as out speeded, and outsized. As it stands right now, the ship is hundreds of CPU and PG below the Hurricane due to fitting issues with lasers, as well, its lacking in the damage department compared to the hurricane, especialy since the hurricane has the ability to fit gun rigs and the harbinger does not[not on its biggest guns, the Hurricane can fit 3 run rigs depending on calibration on 425's and still beat the Harbinger in terms of overall CPU and PG use at max skills compared to heavy pulses. At t1 rigs, that is between a an extra 33% DPS boost[at no extra ammo consumption] or a 37.5% DPS boost[with a large extra ammo consumption]. If the Harbinger fits Focused Medium Pulses, the Hurricane can fit Dual 180mm Auto cannons fit, 3 damage mods and be using the same amount of PG. In this situation the Harbinger is actualy up 125 PG after fitting...[.914]. Then again, the Hurricane is doing between 73% and 85% more damage[depending on how rigs and ship bonuses stack with each other] with her guns than the Harbinger. So go ahead and fit 7 focused medium pulses, a guy in a hurricane will still out damage you and probably out tank you. Heck, with just dual 180mm's he beats you on powergrid by 30 per gun and outdamages you by 40% over focused medium pulses, with the ship bonus and no rigs.[10% with no ship bonus] Some interesting arguments, but I havn't seen your math so I'll have to run it myself and see what I come up with. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.28 21:02:00 - [357] Change the myrmidon to a Drone+EW ship. Take away the armor rep bonus and replace it with a Sensor Dampener strength or range/cap bonus. Replace two high slots with 2 medium slots and remove another turret. Increase drone bay to 200. With 5 heavies + 3 replacements this ship is mathematically on par with the drone capacity for a cruiser done boat. Its DPS is also on par with the DPS of the other new BCs. With sensor dampeners it will take ships a lot longer to lockdown each of the dones and kill them.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.28 22:01:00 - [358] Originally by: keepiru Some interesting arguments, but I havn't seen your math so I'll have to run it myself and see what I come up with. [i made an error for the damage multiplier of the 180mm, i used the damage bonus from t2 to compare to a t1 pulse, which gives the 180II a 20% damage boost that it shouldnt have.] Here is how I did my math. I took the weapons damage multiplier then divided by its rate of fire. This, multiplied by the ammo damage gives you your base DPS for each gun. So, I assume equally skilled people, which means that the miltiplier applied to damage is equal and can be set to 1. Then I compare with what i know about how rigs work. All info so far points to rigs stack penalizing themselves [a mistake above, but since you can spread them out over gun bonuses, isnt a huge issue] but not stack penalizing with modules. What i dont know is whether or not they penalize with ship bonuses. So looking at the Dual 180mm autocannon, it has a DPS multiplier of 1.375 and a ROF of 3. For a final damage rating of .4583. A dual 180mm autocannon uses 80 PG A focused medium pulse has a DPS multiplier of 2 with a ROF of 4.05 for a final damage multiplier of .4938. A focused medium pulse ses 120 PG So if we apply 2 damage rig, and 1 ROF rigs, all at t1 levels, this means is a 10% damage bonus for each, and a 10% RoF bonus for each. For a total damage multiplier for the gun of around 1.17/.9 = 1.30 and a total PG modifier of 1.331. So a dual 180mm autocannon will use 106.4 powergrid and have a final DPS multiplier of .5958[better than a Heavy Pulse Laser by a couple percent], and do 20.6% more DPS than a focused medium pulse laser which uses 120 powergrid. So comparing the Hurricane VS the Harbinger, with equal about PG usage[116 total difference in favor of the AC's, 125 total PG higher on the harbinger] before ship bonuses the hurricanes guns do 20.6% more damage than the harbingers. This gets worse for guns that use more powergrid as you start using heavier guns and tech II guns[and tech II rigs as well] as the powergrid difference between the larger guns get 10% bigger, creating a larger total powergrid difference for each gun. What happens when we compare roughly equal sized guns? Focused Medium Pulses to 200mm autocannons? FMP is at .4938 and 120 powergrid. 200mm Autocannons are at .4881 with 100 powergrid. A 200mm autocannon user can fit two rigs [t1 would give a 21% DPS boost for 1 damage/1 rof for a total DPS mod of .5906] and be just barely over the powergrid usage of the FMP. So with the autocannons you use no cap, instead use ammo, gain 19.6% dps boost and gain CPU fitting versus a FMP. Comparing the biggest of the guns, the 425's which have a damage of 1.925 and a ROF of 3.75[140 PG] to heavy pulses with a damage of 3 and an rof of 5.25[210 PG]. 425 Autocannon base DPS multiplier = .5133 Heavy Pulse Laser base DPS multiplier = .5714 425 PG use with 3 rigs. = 186.34 425 Base DPS multplier with 2 damage/1 rof[to conserve ammo, 1 damage/2 rof is stronger] = .6672 = 16% better than the Heavy Pulse Laser with 20 more PG use[after the PG differences in ships are calculated] T2 rigs make this worse, T2 guns make this worse. Now start figuring in the ship bonuses[rof for each is null] and you see why there is an issue with the Hurricane out damaging the Harbinger and out Tanking it. Now, the big guns would be great if you could fit rigs on to them too, but you cant as effectivly, because of PG issues. A Heavy Pulse Laser with 2 rigs[and an 8 PG rig boost] on the ship to accomidate] will gain 150 PG from the rig at max skills and the HMP's will jump 280 PG use total at AWU 5[for a net loss of 150 PG, you will gain 5% or so damage] you get closer to the damage with T2 rigs, but with T2 guns the PG use difference becomes even larger. This wouldnt be an issue if ships didnt have limited powergrid, but of course, they do. It will also make autocannon/hybrid even better on amarr ships with no laser bonus
Rahjadan Shardur Minmatar Poisoned Heart	Posted - 2006.10.28 22:55:00 - [359] yes so the hurricane outdamages the harbinger, but you did not factor in the reload time for ACs. reloade time is more importent now that ships have more hp and you need more ammo to kill them. ------------------ Life is but a dream...
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.28 23:22:00 - [360] Originally by: Rahjadan Shardur yes so the hurricane outdamages the harbinger, but you did not factor in the reload time for ACs. reloade time is more importent now that ships have more hp and you need more ammo to kill them. you reload, lasers have SHORT falloff and we need change ammo more times. I usually change my ammo 2 times in each fight one when im far and another when im near but maybe i had to change it again for middle range. How many times do you reload? 1? 2? It's great being Amarr, ain't it?

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 23:40:00 - [361] Are you factoring in the fact that the rig skill decreases the penalty to 50% @ lvl5? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Alek Row Minmatar Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.29 00:46:00 - [362] Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:49:54 Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:47:17 Originally by: Sniser you reload, lasers have SHORT falloff and we need change ammo more times. I usually change my ammo 2 times in each fight one when im far and another when im near but maybe i had to change it again for middle range. How many times do you reload? 1? 2? ACs don't shoot without ammo, and I think projectile reloads take more time than crystal reloads. Reload time surelly counts on overall DPS when we're talking about projectiles, we can't shoot without ammo and you can shoot without crystals. Not without cap, but without crystals you still can shoot. ----- --- -- - - Hadean Drive Yards
Rahjadan Shardur Minmatar Poisoned Heart	Posted - 2006.10.29 00:53:00 - [363] Originally by: Alek Row Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:47:17 Originally by: Sniser you reload, lasers have SHORT falloff and we need change ammo more times. I usually change my ammo 2 times in each fight one when im far and another when im near but maybe i had to change it again for middle range. How many times do you reload? 1? 2? ACs don't shoot without ammo, and I think projectile reloads take more time than crystal reloads. Reload time surelly counts on overall DPS when we're talking about projectiles, we can't shoot without ammo and you can shoot without crystals. Not without cap, but with crystals you can still shoot. no actualy he can't shoot without crystals but laser crystal change time ist about 2sec. as for the AC reload: 2 reloads maybe depanding on the tank, which is already 20sec without damage. ------------------ Life is but a dream...
Alek Row Minmatar Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.29 01:03:00 - [364] Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 01:03:00 Originally by: Rahjadan Shardur no actualy he can't shoot without crystals but laser crystal change time ist about 2sec. as for the AC reload: 2 reloads maybe depanding on the tank, which is already 20sec without damage. My mistake then, didn't knew that. Thx. ----- --- -- - - Hadean Drive Yards
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.10.29 02:10:00 - [365] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: SmokeDog Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though. Well, with 2 BCU2 and rage you can get over 600 dps with max skills (and 5 hobgoblins). With javelin assaults you can push it to almost 500 dps for up to 60 km atm. Hey Alt, what is the penalty again for using the Rage "HAM"s that you so much push forward? You have got to be the most immature poster I've had the misfortune to read. And what makes this person an alt. She's in a corp and alliance. I see no corp or alliance in your sig so that must mean you're just an alt who likes to flame people for no reason. Please for the sake of contructive posting just stop. You just make yourself look bad and we have enough of that on the forums. As to the Mym, Up the drone bay to 120m3 and give the ship another turret. After all the artist seems to think it needs another turret.
Malafor Spontaneous Defenestration	Posted - 2006.10.29 02:43:00 - [366] My suggestion to fixing the "Myrmidon-problem". Instead if increasing its drone bay, Just make it possible to move drones from cargo to the drone bay. That would eliminate alot of problems with many drone ships. Like the Vexor,Arbitrator and pilgrim/curse. This way the Myrmidon would be abble to have spare heavy drones when fielding 4 heavys in battle. And i dont think it would need a 5th heavy drone for more dps, Seeing its slot layout it has alot of advantage in battle as it is so versatile in every field. It can both nos or use turrets, It has alot of med-slots for ew, It has a Repair bonus which makes it a good tank. That is my oppinion, in a pvp point of view. (And plz dont change the Drake, and fix more cap for the Harbringer.) -
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.29 03:21:00 - [367] Originally by: Malafor Instead if increasing its drone bay, Just make it possible to move drones from cargo to the drone bay. That would eliminate alot of problems with many drone ships. wouldnt work under current mechanics i believe. you could launch your 4 heavies then move a heavy from cargo to drone bay and launch that one. once your done just scoop on into the cargo bay. with this change in place every ship with at least 25m3 dronebay would be able to field 5 heavy drones.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.29 06:26:00 - [368] Edited by: Goumindong on 29/10/2006 06:28:40 Originally by: keepiru Are you factoring in the fact that the rig skill decreases the penalty to 50% @ lvl5? No, i hadnt, this makes the issue not quite as bad when both ships/gun types fit rigs, but you still have the same problem with powergrid usage and its still easier for the Hurricane to fit gun rigs as opposed to the harbinger. For instance, at max rig skills with 3 gun rigs, a 425 autocannon I uses 48 PG less than a unmodified Heavy Pulse I, 44 PG with AWU 5. With both guns fitted, the harbinger at max skills will have 185 less powergrid than a hurricane at max skills. The hurricane of course, will be doing significantly more damage with no cap usage.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.29 07:03:00 - [369] Well, ome interesting numbers to be sure, they're only right assuming tux does increase EMP damage so it does as much as Multifrequency and Antimatter tho. I think the problem here is one tux touched upon once, and that is, fitting difference between Autocannons and Howitzers is too large, and it makes balancing minnie ships very hard. Regardless, I'm going to hold my council about this particular issue until SISI is stable enough for extended testing. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Parou Qong Federation Industries Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.29 08:13:00 - [370] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 29/10/2006 03:50:14 Originally by: Malafor Instead if increasing its drone bay, Just make it possible to move drones from cargo to the drone bay. That would eliminate alot of problems with many drone ships. wouldnt work under current mechanics i believe. you could launch your 4 heavies then move a heavy from cargo to drone bay and launch that one. once your done just scoop one into the cargo bay. with this change in place every ship with at least 25m3 dronebay would be able to field 5 heavy drones. This is actually a good solution. Make moving drones from cargo to drone bay a specific bonus for this ship only. To prevent moving an extra drone into bay that shouldn't be there, have client do a check on m3 of drones currently in space (when attempting to move a drone into the drone bay). This will take just a moment but with pvp taking longer shouldn't be a factor. I'm not sure whether can be done with current mechanics, but it's an interesting concept.

Tek'a Rain Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.29 08:55:00 - [371] or, instead of thowing away the entire system and starting over from scratch.. the myrm could get a plenty bigger drone bay. tada, problem solved. Blaque or Foiritan
Soratah Amarr Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.10.29 09:55:00 - [372] Sounds like the jury's still out deliberating, but looking at the raw maths that some people have posted. Tier 2 BC top damage will be the Minmatar at close range, with Caldari coming in second. Myrmidon third, even with it's current dronebay situation. Last of all, the Harbinger with it's trademark Amarrian - buggered fitting requirements and laser capabilities. As I've seen someone else posting It's great being Amarrian...
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.29 10:29:00 - [373] Originally by: Alek Row Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:49:54 Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:47:17 Originally by: Sniser you reload, lasers have SHORT falloff and we need change ammo more times. I usually change my ammo 2 times in each fight one when im far and another when im near but maybe i had to change it again for middle range. How many times do you reload? 1? 2? ACs don't shoot without ammo, and I think projectile reloads take more time than crystal reloads. Reload time surelly counts on overall DPS when we're talking about projectiles, we can't shoot without ammo and you can shoot without crystals. Not without cap, but without crystals you still can shoot. Sorry but my t2 crystals gone too. What do you think if my crystals t2 broke and you still have t2 ammo? maybe i can still shoot with t1 ammo but im going to die since i cant do the same dps with my lost It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.10.29 10:34:00 - [374] Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36 7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt what about the absolution? People are getting carried away here arent they hehe Remember people these ships are tech1 :)
Coreantes Phoenix Wing	Posted - 2006.10.29 11:46:00 - [375] Originally by: Zeknichov Change the myrmidon to a Drone+EW ship. Take away the armor rep bonus and replace it with a Sensor Dampener strength or range/cap bonus. Replace two high slots with 2 medium slots and remove another turret. I would like this. Gives Gallente more defensive capabilities. The Brutix will still be the damage+tank, the Myrmidon will be able to do a crossing between the Vexor and the Celestis, or kind of the big version for the Amarr Arbitrator! As for the drone-bay, I think it's fair to have 10 medium T2 drones! Giving it the option to launch heavies or sentries would be to much. It's not a BS, you know? But a drone-EW hybrid would be fun! ---------------------------------------------- Good is only skin deep, Evil is dead down to the bone...
Jom Lik	Posted - 2006.10.29 12:31:00 - [376] Edited by: Jom Lik on 29/10/2006 12:35:38 Edited by: Jom Lik on 29/10/2006 12:35:01 To make things easier here is recap about Myrmidon (it looks like most people that posted are not happy with it) from thread. I hope this list can help dev to see what concerns other players have. - Many players mentioning that Myrmidon needs a larger drone bay - Suggestion about drone bonus change and different bonuses: to give dmg/other (speed bounus etc.), drone dmg bonuses (different for light/med and heavy, dmg bonuses only for light/med) - Suggestion about +1 drone control per skill level - Suggestion anout +25m3 drone space per skill level - Most players mentioning drone bay increase from 125m3 to 200m3 - Some players mentioning cut in number of high slots and adding of one more low slot (for improved tank). - Many players pointing that with HP boost for ships and no dmg boost for drones simple tactics will be to destroy all drones first and kill Myrmidon (without drones Myrm is loosing a lot of offensive power) - There is concern from some of players that without turret bonuses once when drones are dead Myrmidon is next to useless - There are comments about drones being very expensive (T2) in comparision with other T2 ammo and once drones are dead replacement will be very expensive (with new improved ship HP players will first target and destroy drones) - Many players agreed that in 1 vs 1 Myrmidon is usually doomed against other Tier-2 BCs - It looks like biggest fear for non Gallente players is from heavy drones - Many players pointing that average DPS for Myrm is lower than other Tier-2 and even some Tier-1 BCs This is just recap of things from thread and not my personal opinion. My personal opinion below. What looks like general 'problem' with BCs is that they are using cruiser sized modules/weapons. That is only class I think that is using stuff for another class of ships. There is not a single module dedicated for BCs and BCs in general are much bigger than average cruiser. I would like to see BC size 20Mn MWD or something similar :) I did have luck to try actual ship and from my experience Myrm is really not on pair with other Tier-2 BCs. Drake is uber machine and both Amarr/Minmatar ships are looking pretty balanced. I would like to see change in drone space - 200m3 will be great what gives player ability to have 1 wave of heavy, med and light drones but more important of all gives flexibility (I can chose to take 10 light, 5 med and assortment of ECM, web drones or any combo I see fit to my tactics). Also I can live without 1 (even 2) high slots for one more low slot for improved tank. PG/CPU can be tweaked to reflect changes if necesary.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:00:00 - [377] The myr should get 200-225 m¦ dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2. 225m¦ drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:34:00 - [378] Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 29/10/2006 13:35:43 Originally by: Aramendel The myr should get 200-225 m¦ dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2. 225m¦ drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports. T2 ammo has stacking penalties. Ever try a minmatar ac boat with hail? They almost move backwards and cap recharge rate skyrockets. I fly minmatar primarily and don't know about the other T2 ammo, but they all have a penalty that stack per turret loaded with it. T2 drones don't have a penalty of any kind other than "OMGWTF$"? All the T2 drones are faster and tougher than the T1. They may cost more but that is the only penalty incurred. They don't reduce the amount drained by nos/neutralizers . All who want the new gallente BC to have 225m drone bays just want a cheaper dominix and more uber vexor. As far as a "Damper" bonus... lmfao. Hell no, people are going to fit it with ewar anyway. No turrets? Rather silly there. Strip the drone bonuses, give it a hybrid damage bonus, let it have the 225m bay, maybe give it a mwd cap reduction so it's more like a thorax than a vexor on steroids. THUKKER
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:49:00 - [379] Hail had it's speed penalitiy removed, welcome to the future. And all other tier 2 BCs can deal more dps than 5 heavies with the drone bonus with t1 ammo!
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:12:00 - [380] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2006 14:14:30 Originally by: Futher Bezluden Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 29/10/2006 13:37:26 Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 29/10/2006 13:35:43 Originally by: Aramendel The myr should get 200-225 m¦ dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2. 225m¦ drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports. T2 ammo has stacking penalties. Ever try a minmatar ac boat with hail? They almost move backwards and cap recharge rate skyrockets. I fly minmatar primarily and don't know about the other T2 ammo, but they all have a penalty that stack per turret loaded with it. T2 drones don't have a penalty of any kind other than "OMGWTF$"? All the T2 drones are faster and tougher than the T1. They may cost more but that is the only penalty incurred. They don't reduce the amount drained by nos/neutralizers . All who want the new gallente BC to have 225m drone bays just want a cheaper dominix and more uber vexor. As far as a "Damper" bonus... lmfao. Hell no, people are going to fit it with ewar anyway. No turrets? Rather silly there. Strip the drone bonuses, give it a hybrid damage bonus, let it have the 225m bay, maybe give it a mwd cap reduction so it's more like a thorax on steroids than a vexor on steroids. No t2 drone penaties? Have you ever tried buying t2 ogres or hammerheads? the t1 to t2 cost ratio is rediculas, far in excess of any other item beyond t2 cap rechargers Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus

Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:15:00 - [381] Originally by: Aramendel Hail had it's speed penalitiy removed, welcome to the future. And all other tier 2 BCs can deal more dps than 5 heavies with the drone bonus with t1 ammo! well said sir.. Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:21:00 - [382] Originally by: Aramendel The myr should get 200-225 m¦ dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2. 225m¦ drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports. that would be one mean nos-pwnmobile... Why not give it a large dronebay (200-250m3) but no drone bonus and a hybrid bonus instead. Then they can have their heavys and some backups but they don't to BBQ damage. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:34:00 - [383] No, it wont be a mean NOSPwnMobile because its powergrid sucks far too hard for any decent amount of nossage with a tank under it. NOS + Drones is only that good when you have ECM in the mix as well, and that wont be happening anymore. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:37:00 - [384] Originally by: keepiru No, it wont be a mean NOSPwnMobile because its powergrid sucks far too hard for any decent amount of nossage with a tank under it. NOS + Drones is only that good when you have ECM in the mix as well, and that wont be happening anymore. then it will be a mild nos-decentmobile. I still think the answer is to not give it a drone damage bonus. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:10:00 - [385] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:10:39 Originally by: Dixon that would be one mean nos-pwnmobile... Why not give it a large dronebay (200-250m3) but no drone bonus and a hybrid bonus instead. Then they can have their heavys and some backups but they don't to BBQ damage. Well, it wouldn't be one any more than an Ishtar. All t2 cruisers seem to me somewhat stronger than their racial HACs on the cost of speed, agility & range. Note that the tier2 BCs are rather heavy and are not very fast even with MWDs, so for a Myr getting into med nos range isn't something it can do easily. It's only 12 km, not 25 km like with the domi.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:38:00 - [386] Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? CEO - Art of War
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.29 22:39:00 - [387] Originally by: Nebuli Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.29 22:43:00 - [388] I havnt boverd to check so if you would like to look it up you can probably prove me wrong. But i thought that between the bonuses of T2 launchers/turrets and the T2 Amunition for them they were improved by more then the drones were hence ballenced. Now if this was the case then with the T2 ammo nerf it may not be any more. Maybe some one should check. Im too lazy ^.^
Caewack	Posted - 2006.10.30 00:02:00 - [389] Edited by: Caewack on 30/10/2006 00:04:58 Originally by: Black Scorpio Quote: "When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong..." Answer: Pot in very high quantities is bad for you! Stop while you have something left in your head that you can use, or is it too late! Don't blame pot, pot is good. One might think your head took a beating when you say something as dumb as above. oh, and btw. Make 4 stickies for each battlecruiser.. There is no system in the threads and the replys are all mixed up. Makes it close to impossible to discuss anything in here.
Jaxtet	Posted - 2006.10.30 01:12:00 - [390] As far as drawbacks of T2 drones vs. T2 turrets, etc - T2 turrets can't be targeted explicitly and destroyed or disabled.

Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.30 01:36:00 - [391] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nebuli Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks. No, they have low dps, delayed damage and the fact they can be shot down as drawbacks. Also the ships that have drone bonus's also have lower fittings and less slots than those that dont. CEO - Art of War
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 02:28:00 - [392] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nebuli Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks. No, they have low dps, delayed damage and the fact they can be shot down as drawbacks. Also the ships that have drone bonus's also have lower fittings and less slots than those that dont. Only if you dont consider the drone bay a usefull attribute to be balanced with fitting and slots.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 03:57:00 - [393] I've said it before and I'll say it again... Just up the Myrm drone space to 200 or so and give the drones a 7.5% bonus instead of a 10%. Simple.
Packtu'sa Caldari Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 04:02:00 - [394] Edited by: Packtu''sa on 30/10/2006 04:02:12 Harbinger (Amarr) - It looks like a nice ganking boat. No bonuses to tanking, but the capacitor need reduction and damage bonus looks simple and solid. Its four midslots to six lowslots go along with its nature as a pure-damage boat, rather than a ship that tanks damage. Seems fine to me. Drake (Caldari) - It's good that the new battlecruiser for Caldari will be a missile boat. Though many seem to be saying that the new battlecruisers should be all-gank and no-tank, I think that this only holds true for the Harbinger and Hurricane--the Drake and Myrmidon should have strong tanks. The seven launcher slots will give it a nice damage output, though if people try to fit all Heavy Missile Launchers in those slots, they will find an appalling lack of CPU and powergrid remaining--which is good, it forces people to think more about how they fit it. The Rate of Fire bonus is fine; if you replace this with a Kinetic damage bonus, Caldari will be even more restricted in their damage type than Amarr or Gallente. Myrmidon (Gallente) - Come on people, read the description. It's a ship designed to withstand damage and last on a battlefield, not one that will dish out loads of damage, which is, by the way, not the only factor one should consider on a ship. I think that the Myrmidon should be given a 125 m3 drone bay, but have the drone damage bonus removed and the drone hitpoints bonus increased to 20%. This will go hand-in-hand with its overall resiliance, and still maintain some of its previous damage potential. Keep the armor bonus, and give it a sixth turret slot. Hurricane (Minmatar) - A few things could be done with the Hurricane. It seems like its a nice damage boat like the Harbinger, and has enough capacitor/slots to tank a bit of damage. I like that it can't fit artillery without compromising the rest of its setup. Since it will be using autocannons, though, let's give it a bit of speed; increase its max velocity to 175 m/s, or alternatively, replace its Rate of Fire bonus with a 5% Max Velocity bonus. This would make it a bit less of gank and more of manuevering, so I personally would prefer the base max velocity increase, as long as its CPU and powergrid are not enough to fit a strong artillery setup. I hope to be producing all four of these when the patch is released, so I look forward to all of them. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.30 06:32:00 - [395] Originally by: Packtu'sa Hurricane (Minmatar) - A few things could be done with the Hurricane. It seems like its a nice damage boat like the Harbinger, and has enough capacitor/slots to tank a bit of damage. I like that it can't fit artillery without compromising the rest of its setup. Since it will be using autocannons, though, let's give it a bit of speed; increase its max velocity to 175 m/s, or alternatively, replace its Rate of Fire bonus with a 5% Max Velocity bonus. This would make it a bit less of gank and more of manuevering, so I personally would prefer the base max velocity increase, as long as its CPU and powergrid are not enough to fit a strong artillery setup. The Hurricane is fine as is. There are very few complaints leveled at it, I imagine there would be outrage if it were changed now. It's everything we ever dreamed of, the Rupture's bigger brother. And I definetly plan to use artillery with it. It would mean no tank but that is something I can live with. The joys of alliance warfare...
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 06:58:00 - [396] about the hurricane... i had not much time to try it out well, it seem a nice boat but is also extremely slow... my phoon probably is a bit faster and more maneuverable considering its stats and the lack of tanking bonus i wish it could get some more speed 175-180... had no chance to try/see other BCs in action, on paper the drake seem an awesome ship... probably a bit too awesome
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.10.30 08:41:00 - [397] Originally by: Nebuli Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous. Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target. "I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!" As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship. The more I read and look at the math, the more I agree with you. I'd gladly gladly gladly trade in my high slots down to two (remote rep and range boost, gotta give the little guys SOME loving) for maybe another low slot, some more drone space, and perhaps an extra live drone or two. Maybe do a thing like, "+1 drones for every two levels past 1" so that at level 3 BC you get +1 drone, level 5 you get +2. But holy ****, as it stands right now, I might as well go back to my Vexor. I'd much rather go 600m/s with rails and have a pack of rabid HH2 cycling in and out, than this slow rock with naught but a quad of Ogres waiting to be raped by anything that's not a tier 1 BC with poor tracking.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.30 11:15:00 - [398] Originally by: Packtu'sa Harbinger (Amarr) - It looks like a nice ganking boat. No bonuses to tanking, but the capacitor need reduction and damage bonus looks simple and solid. Its four midslots to six lowslots go along with its nature as a pure-damage boat, rather than a ship that tanks damage. Seems fine to me. Problem is that vs the hurricane it is worse in every aspect but drone bay. It is slower, it's tank is worse, it does less dps and has less fitting space avaiable after shortrange weapons fitted.
Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:04:00 - [399] Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm, i've only just managed to get on the test server, but once i got in a fight (with a drake) i killed it when i was still on half armor. We started nearly 50km away from each other, and my drones even decided to wander off halfway through. The character was over a year older than me, and he didn't target my drones (who knows what would have happened if he had). My tank appeared to be able to sustain itself for a little while(with 3 nos) and my dps with 3 ions could have been enough to finish him off in time. All im saying is that the Myrm has excellent damage (i was using 3 ogres and 2 hammerhead IIs), so maybe it should have some weakness, sure up its bay to 125m3 but at 200+ i think it will be far overpowered, with no weakness. This is coming from someone who intends to buy a Myrm as their main ship on TQ.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:59:00 - [400] Originally by: Tintifish Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm This. -- NMTZ forum

Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 15:54:00 - [401] Just managed to log back in (for about 3 minutes)and noticed the Myrm now has only 2 turrets. Im pretty sure this wasn't like this before, seeing i have 3 fitted. I think only have 2 turrets and a 100m3 drone bay is a bit too far?
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:00:00 - [402] Originally by: Tintifish Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm, i've only just managed to get on the test server, but once i got in a fight (with a drake) i killed it when i was still on half armor. We started nearly 50km away from each other, and my drones even decided to wander off halfway through. The character was over a year older than me, and he didn't target my drones (who knows what would have happened if he had). My tank appeared to be able to sustain itself for a little while(with 3 nos) and my dps with 3 ions could have been enough to finish him off in time. All im saying is that the Myrm has excellent damage (i was using 3 ogres and 2 hammerhead IIs), so maybe it should have some weakness, sure up its bay to 125m3 but at 200+ i think it will be far overpowered, with no weakness. This is coming from someone who intends to buy a Myrm as their main ship on TQ. He used the wrong tactics basically, if he had then you would be dead. Either he has has no PvP experience or he doesn't know the Myrm's stats so assumed you had replacement drones. Zarch AlDain
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:07:00 - [403] Originally by: Tintifish Just managed to log back in (for about 3 minutes)and noticed the Myrm now has only 2 turrets. Im pretty sure this wasn't like this before, seeing i have 3 fitted. I think only have 2 turrets and a 100m3 drone bay is a bit too far? Oh please oh please tell me my dream came true and we've ditched the crappy turrets in favor of the real dogged persistance and tankability the description promises us, along with a +# drone control bonus (Hell! I have a better idea than before. Tie bonus drone count into advanced drone interfacing, a skill that noncarriers otherwise have put to waste! +1 per level of that) and bay increase. Oh please oh please. What's my one account in the face of thousands but I pledge six months purchased upon patch release if we get this kind of deal.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:10:00 - [404] No, 3 fitted + 2 hardpoints on fitting screen = 5. If you fit 5, it'll say the ship has 0 hardpoints, because it shows the amount of turret/missiles hardpoints still free. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:26:00 - [405] Ah lol, explains it, i checked ship description as well, but must have checked my ship's becuase the market was broke by this point. Nevermind...we can but hope :)
Packtu'sa Caldari Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 17:26:00 - [406] The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. Its ability to dish out damage is superceded by its ability to withstand it, so personally, I would be asking for cap/lowslot/cpu/powergrid changes rather than this futility of wanting to match the Hurricane's DPS. A Hurricane will not be able to tank nearly as well as a Myrmidon will, so why should the Myrmidon be matching its DPS? If the Harbinger does less damage than the Hurricane, I propose that a lowslot be taken from the Hurricane so that one less damage/tracking mod can be used. They should be fairly close in damage-per-second, but remember that the Hurricane can change damage types, and it will be faster and smaller. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 18:26:00 - [407] mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane harbringer with focused medium pulse is not that wors than 425mm, a bit less damage at closer range but better range... if you factor in the bigger dronebay then the dps is almost identical (with better range for the harb) focused medium pulse is also easier to fit, so the harb should have better tank than the hurricane (easier fitting and 15-20% more base armor hps) the hurrican can mount an additional missile launcher to improve its dps, while the harbringer is stuck with the nos (still quite benefical), so i don't see the reason of all this whinage
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.30 18:54:00 - [408] Originally by: Ath Amon mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane ... so i don't see the reason of all this whinage that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:06:00 - [409] Originally by: Packtu'sa The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. All the more reason it needs a larger drone bay. If it's built to tank, then that means it needs to LAST on the battlefield. Without spare drones all it can do is tank until it dies. Basically if your in a Myrm and you lose your drones, just hit the self-destruct button and be done with it.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:17:00 - [410] Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 19:18:00 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here. yes i see the cap problem, but harbs have also more range and base tankage so i don't see a huge umbalance harb vs hurr, both with 1 nos, i will prefer to stay in the hurr, but mostly due to 70% base ew res. still harb is better suited for longer range as noses are less a problem... against a brutix for example probably i will prefer the harb so in the end i consider them quite balanced, maybe hurr a bit better but is also quite situational

Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:26:00 - [411] Originally by: Packtu'sa The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. Its ability to dish out damage is superceded by its ability to withstand it, so personally, I would be asking for cap/lowslot/cpu/powergrid changes rather than this futility of wanting to match the Hurricane's DPS. A Hurricane will not be able to tank nearly as well as a Myrmidon will, so why should the Myrmidon be matching its DPS? ... Why can't a Hurricane tank almost as well? It has one more low slot for an additional rep, it has oodles of grid available and ACs need no cap and are easy to fit. -- NMTZ forum
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:44:00 - [412] Edited by: Goumindong on 30/10/2006 19:52:35 Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 19:18:00 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here. yes i see the cap problem, but harbs have also more range and base tankage so i don't see a huge umbalance harb vs hurr, both with 1 nos, i will prefer to stay in the hurr, but mostly due to 70% base ew res. still harb is better suited for longer range as noses are less a problem... against a brutix for example probably i will prefer the harb so in the end i consider them quite balanced, maybe hurr a bit better but is also quite situational It has "20% more tankage" Which is true if you consider the resists equal, where the Hurricanes armor resists are actualy about 20% better than the Harbingers[10% bonus to EM resists = 25% less EM damage, 10% bonus to explosive resists = 12.2% less explosive damage] Harbingers also dont really have more range, well it only does if the Harb if sitting a MWD and the opponent is not, and the Harb neither has the fitting ease, or capacitor ease to do so. The Harbinger is not paticularly fast and has no way to dictate range like the Hurricane does, not like it matters if your optimal is under web range anyway. One thing i think you are forgetting about the fact that no, Focused Medium Pulses really arent close to 425's FMP II DPS Multiplier = .5926 425 II DPS Multiplier = .616 Now what happens when with 1 level of BC to 5 levels of BC 425 II DPS Multiplier BC1 = .6468 425 II DPS Multiplier BC2 = .6776 425 II DPS Multiplier BC3 = .7084 425 II DPS Multiplier BC4 = .7392 425 II DPS Multiplier BC5 = .77 Looking at 425's against Focused Medium Pulses and figuring out how much more damage the 425's do in a percentage amount at each level of Battlecruiser. BC 1 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 9.1% BC 2 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 14.3% BC 3 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 19.5% BC 4 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 24.7% BC 5 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 29.9% Now in exhcange for this very large damage difference, the hurricane is smaller, faster, doesnt use cap on its guns, has a better tank, and will have about 300 PG less than you to fit things other than weapons. Oops, its a shame that that 300 PG is irrelevent because at AWU 0, the Hurricane can still fit a 1600 plate, MAR II, and AB II/MWD, but doesnt give you the ability to fit two 1600 plates+reppers/AB. I dont know what "faster/harder to hit/takes less damage/doesnt use capacitor to fire guns/does more damage" means to you, but to me, it means "better" edit: Rigs make the damage come back into place a bit, but still leave the Hurricane with better damage if it also fits one rig, and it certianly can. + the whole not using cap thing.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:46:00 - [413] Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2006 20:58:26 Well, "DPS Multiplier" as a comparison tool is kinda useless until. EMP M does less damage than AM M and MF M You don't calculate damage@range and tracking - need NB's spreadsheet for this You don't factor in reload time over your average fight time - again need NB's spreadsheet for this Not that I've been able to find a setup that can fit MWD + Injector + DUal rep or Rep + 1600 on the Hurricane with 425s and a nos or heavy assault, I have to use 220s. Regardless, looks to me they should give it back its 8th turret. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:48:00 - [414] Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 20:48:42 EM dmg is not that common in close range... also the range is way better, around 2x if i remember right... the difference in dps at BC5 is compensated by better drone dps, i looked at graph and as said in the other post is very similar with harbringer who have better range also harb is slower than a hurr but is faster than a brutix so is not that slow compared to other bcs and against cruisers that are generally faster its higher range should be quite benefical. (of course i'm speaking with similar config with both ships with 1 nos) later i'll post a graph (now can't :( ) also with rigs that increase turret dps at the cost of PG is not that bad to have a bit more pg :)
Tek'a Rain Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:53:00 - [415] why do folk keep proclaiming that removing the damamge modifier for drones is a magic fix? take away the bonus and suddenly the ship that was almost, barely, approximatly as hard hitting as the vexor is now much less so, while still being crippled and nerfed for its class and size.. silly, just silly. Foiritan Is Our Man
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:25:00 - [416] This is just a suggestion for the Galante teir 2 BC. Alter the drone damage/hitpoints bonus to effect only light and medium drones. Change the armour bonus to a +1 drone contol per lvl. Change drone capacity to 200m3. Also add this. It can not hold heavy drones. Keep the rest the same. Flame suit on.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:26:00 - [417] Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 20:48:42 EM dmg is not that common in close range... also the range is way better, around 2x if i remember right... the difference in dps at BC5 is compensated by better drone dps, i looked at graph and as said in the other post is very similar with harbringer who have better range also harb is slower than a hurr but is faster than a brutix so is not that slow compared to other bcs and against cruisers that are generally faster its higher range should be quite benefical. (of course i'm speaking with similar config with both ships with 1 nos) later i'll post a graph (now can't :( ) also with rigs that increase turret dps at the cost of PG is not that bad to have a bit more pg :) 1. DPS multiplier is relevent because A: Lasers have worse tracking than other guns[FMP has 30% worse tracking than 425 II B: Range is irrelevent unless the ship can dictate its range, which the very slow Harbinger cannot, especialy since the range it needs to dictate is under web rage with pulse weapons. C: Ammo and Crystals [t1 at least] do similar damage at equal ranges modifications. The difference at BC 5 is compensated by better drone DPS when the harbinger is using Heavy Pulses and the Hurricane is using 220's Rigs would be great, but even with rigs, the 425's do better than the FMP's with 3 rigs, if the 425 has 1 rig. So the Hurricane has 2 other slots to fit with things like an 8% PG rig [And then the Harbingers PG fitting bonus is gone and the Hurricane is ahead by 15 PG in absolute terms(1890 to 1875)] So now the Hurricane is using less PG for guns, doing more damage, has an extra rig slot it can use, and has more absolute powergrid. If the Harbinger doesnt fit three gun rigs, it does less damage than the Hurricane. And the Hurricane is still faster, smaller, and doesnt need to use cap to fire its guns.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:48:00 - [418] Well, T2 ammo wont be so common anymore after the nuuurfs, so Autocannons will have to fight against 24hp MF M with EMP M (22hp) or Phased Plasma M (20hp). So damage figures which don't take this into account fail @ reality. Also, thanks to the ludicrous rof of Auto's, reload time puts a considerable dent in your dps in any real 1-on-1, especially with the 50% HP boost. So much so that 425mm ACs had to have their clip size boosted because they actually did less dps than 220s in a fight thanks to clip size. Not that anyone is going to fit 425s anyway. Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:51:00 - [419] Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:52:34 Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:51:45 I think that the Myrmidon still needs a lot of work. With 8 Highs, 5 turrets and no hybrid bonus it is designed to be used with LASERS. You can fit 5 Focused Medium Pulse laser II 3 NOS to offset the extra cap required by the lasers A repairer and an Afterburner (not enough grid for MWD) It is a bigger arbitrator, not a smaller dominix. We need a tier 2 battlecruiser that can be used by gallente pilots. Please, at least change the turret hardpoints to missile hardpoints.
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:59:00 - [420] Originally by: Zhull Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:52:34 Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:51:45 I think that the Myrmidon still needs a lot of work. With 8 Highs, 5 turrets and no hybrid bonus it is designed to be used with LASERS. You can fit 5 Focused Medium Pulse laser II 3 NOS to offset the extra cap required by the lasers A repairer and an Afterburner (not enough grid for MWD) It is a bigger arbitrator, not a smaller dominix. We need a tier 2 battlecruiser that can be used by gallente pilots. Please, at least change the turret hardpoints to missile hardpoints. Oh, by the way, and it can have a mean shield tank

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 22:06:00 - [421] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2006 20:58:26 Well, "DPS Multiplier" as a comparison tool is kinda useless until. EMP M does less damage than AM M and MF M You don't calculate damage@range and tracking - need NB's spreadsheet for this You don't factor in reload time over your average fight time - again need NB's spreadsheet for this Not that I've been able to find a setup that can fit MWD + Injector + DUal rep or Rep + 1600 on the Hurricane with 425s and a nos or heavy assault, I have to use 220s. Regardless, looks to me they should give it back its 8th turret. Titainium Sabot M and EMP M both do 22 damage. MF M does 24. If you want, you can give the FMP a 9% boost in damage[equal to BC 1 now], for that. It isnt going to help much. Now if you start looking at its based armor damage instead of the base damage differences, you will start seeing that go the other way. Not sure what happens when you average between the two based on the number of shield/armor tankers, but i doubt it will be favorable to the lasers.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 22:17:00 - [422] here the graph... hur vs har doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2... i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones. also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite... i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk... you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot. and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.30 23:01:00 - [423] I finally got a chance to fly the drake this afternoon and it seems pretty good. It's a very tight fit to get tech 2 launchers on it though, even with AWU. Zarch AlDain
James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2006.10.30 23:08:00 - [424] Edited by: James Draekn on 30/10/2006 23:12:52 Just ran the math on Ogre 2's, if the Myrmidons slots layout/bonuses were changed to the following: 4 highs(no turrets) 5 mids 7 lows 500m3 drone bay +1 drone controlled per level +10% drone damage and hitpoints per level Ogre 2's stats Damage mod of 1.92 Damage or 24 ROF 2 So we take the numbers and go...... 1.92* (2[drone interfacing 5, 100% increase in drone damage] + .25 [heavy drone operation] + .1 [adv gal drone skill] + .5 [bc skill]) = 5.472 damage mod damage doesn't change = 24 rof doesnt change = rof 2 so we get 5.47224/2=65.664 PER DRONE for DPS times that by 10= 656.64 MAX DPS with full skills on 10 ogre 2's in space.* The drones have to be within 5km of their target and they have no drone damage mods, no rof mods. This would be a true drone boat. After running those numbers I seriously was thinking that this ship could have those bonuses and that size drone bay and still need turrets to compete with the other races tier 2 BC. Not to mention the fact that enemies can target drones and kill them. So for all the people saying that heavy drones would make this ship overpowered, here's the proof that it won't. Most of the other races BC with max skills and the largest guns fit to gank will outdamage this thing easily. And the large drone bay is there do to the fact that this ship has no guns, so it needs to be able to reload just like turret and launchers.
Bradstone BRADNETT Process of Elimination	Posted - 2006.10.30 23:14:00 - [425] Edited by: Bradstone on 30/10/2006 23:14:29 Even i haven't read all the posts here, I must agree that the nighthawk have a 7th launcher slot to. I use a nighthawk for pretty much everything, and to think that all that skill training time for a nighthawk and all that isk "could" be all out damaged by a nOOb in a T1 BC... it would be devastating.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:22:00 - [426] Originally by: James Draekn [b]4 highs(no turrets) 5 mids 7 lows 500m3 drone bay A drone battlecruiser should not have more low slots than the Brutix, Astarte and Deimos.... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:29:00 - [427] Originally by: Ath Amon here the graph... hur vs har doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2... i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones. also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite... i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk... you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot. and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers The 425 II spends a full 1/3 of the time reloading?
James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:44:00 - [428] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: James Draekn [b]4 highs(no turrets) 5 mids 7 lows 500m3 drone bay A drone battlecruiser should not have more low slots than the Brutix, Astarte and Deimos.... Ok how about.... 4 highs (no turrets) 6 mids 6 lows With the Myrmidon's powergrid you can't stack to much in the lows.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:45:00 - [429] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ath Amon here the graph... hur vs har doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2... i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones. also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite... i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk... you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot. and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers The 425 II spends a full 1/3 of the time reloading? amarr ships have cap, but minnies have reloading the graph is made with NB's spreadsheet that is considered very accurate (more than quickfit that have some bugs)... i can have messed it up but a bit playing with it but don't think so... anyway if someone want to try to reproduce it and post here...
Valtirix Gallente Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.31 01:35:00 - [430] Originally by: Ath Amon here the graph... hur vs har doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2... i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones. also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite... i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk... you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot. and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers See, i think the Hurricane is fine! Besides, some people are complaining it's dps is too high compared with its tankability? 1: Have you not seen the hail nerfs for Kali? I'll be damned if anybody uses hail 2:Also, it doesn't get a tanking bonus, like the other bc's do. THe Myrmidon's rep bonus, and the drake's resistance bonus make up for it. And, it sort of made me think of a brutix when i thought of a dual MAR tank on a hurricane, but again, it doesn't get the rep bonus of a brutix....

Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:41:00 - [431] Edited by: Kai Lae on 31/10/2006 02:42:27 Originally by: James Draekn 1.92* (2 [drone interfacing 5, 100% increase in drone damage] + .25 [heavy drone operation] + .1 [adv gal drone skill] + .5 [bc skill] ) = 5.472 damage mod damage doesn't change = 24 rof doesnt change = rof 2 So we get = 5.47224/2= 65.664 PER DRONE for DPS. Times that by 10= 656.64 MAX DPS with full skills on 10 ogre 2's in space.* Your numbers are incorrect. Taken in order: Ogre II Damagemod: 1.96 1.96 x drone interfacing 5: 4.8 4.8 x gallente drone spec 5: 5.28 5.28 x gallente BC 5: 7.92 7.92 x 24: 190.08 190.08/2: 95.04 95.04 x 5: 475.2 DPS 475.2 DPS is the max amount of drone damage you can do with any drone ship in the game except the moros. With a moros, it is 1108.8 DPS. Raptor and Ares Fix
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:44:00 - [432] reserved 2
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:44:00 - [433] Edited by: Kalhystia on 31/10/2006 02:46:35 Hey peeps. I would first like to say that I am going to buy and use a myrmidon a Kali: I just love this ship. I use gallente vessels quite often and even if I am not an expert at it I do pvp sometimes. However I don¦t claim to be a ship specialist, able to spam uber numbers and formulas with alien signs everywhere, I just want to bring my 2 cents. on the current issue with this nice battlecruiser . Myrmidon battlecruiser role: Well after reading this thread, I saw quite a lot of people wanting to boost this baby to bring it along with the other tier 2 bc DPS; if, that is a good idea in theory, I would like to point out that Gallente already have a damage boat, the Brutix. Giving the Myrmidon a medium hybrid bonus would just make it subpar to the Brutix as such a bonus wouldn¦t be that useful, as the Myrmidon only has 5 turret slots and little powergrid to fit them. Brutix is supposed to be the gank baby of our arsenal, not Myrmidon . Even if you can fit it like a blasterboat, I believe it is better at range, acting like a support ship: fit dampeners/tracking disruptors, some NOS and small sized guns and you get a very valuable ship in fleets, able to mount a gang warfare module, while being able to get rid of pesty frigates and interceptors. Of course, it has a moderate DPS, but as said before, the point of this ship is NOT pure DPS for gankage. Personally, I find that the Myrmidon repair bonus is fine; with a plate, this ship can reach 13k armor hitpoints with a good tank, turning it into a nice, maybe too nice tanking platform. Even without a plate, the ship isn¦t that fast or agile, and trying to add a microwarp drive will just give you poor results, as your base signature radius stays almost as big as a BS to start with. Of course, it is a droneboat, so the damage bonus to drone is greatly welcomed, even if it could be modified a little. (see below).
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:45:00 - [434] reserved 3.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.31 03:32:00 - [435] No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs. Just give it 250m3 and get it over with. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.31 05:05:00 - [436] Edited by: Ath Amon on 31/10/2006 05:10:43 Originally by: Kalhystia Last words. That¦s it, I just brought my little opinion about this ship; I am not perfect, I am not a good PvPer but I still have tested the ship, so I still have little knowledge of what I am talking about. I stay open-minded enough to know that my post isn¦t flawless, and I welcome people to correct me, as long as it stays flame-proof. Thanks for the few chosen ones who were able to reach the end of that post without falling asleep . liked your analysis, and mostly agree for the ship role and dps... i also looked a bit at its damage graph and seem a bit low even to me... but also i myst say that i will not like that much the idea to boost drone dmg to 15% (even if only on medium and light) what "scares" me of this ship is its decent tank, number of midslots and decent dps for its nosage power. (i didn't tried fittings so i don't know eventual pg/cpu problems) but with these stats i fear that, using damps, it will force most opponents to fight in its nos range and this can make it an extremely powerfull ship even in its actual condition... so, for my taste the only way i will improve its dps for now it will be maybe with 6 turrets instead of 5... a bit more balance but more important the additional dps comes at cost of nosage power. i'm not saying that the ship is overpowered or is fine as is it, just that in my opinion with its "peculiar" design probably it will need a bit of time before people will get used to it and "learn" to put the best out of it... and a fast boost can risk to overpower it. adding: instead for me it will be fine to restrict the drone bonus to mid and light drones and to improve the drone bay... 10% to mid and light drones only and 150m3 (if not 200) drone bay seem ok to me
MECTO Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.10.31 06:55:00 - [437] Originally by: keepiru Just give it 250m3 and get it over with. yeah and problem solved. It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.31 07:30:00 - [438] Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 07:31:25 Allright, I got bored of looking @ other people's graphs, so I made my own - btw, NaughtyBoy and Chribba are made of pure 24-karat win. Anyway, I wanted to look at DPS @ Range and Cumulative Damage/Time @ fixed range - both with the ships as they are right now, and with the only realistically possible boosts for the 2 ships that are perceived as "weak", which is to say: 8th turret for Harbinger and 250m3 drone bay for Myrmidon. Before we start, a few notes about the highslot/drone setups of the ships here: The Hurricane uses a T2 Heavy Assault in the 8th high. This is actually very unlikely to happen, as even with the dps of HAML IIs most people will probably fit a nos, purely because the ammo draw of 7 ACs creates noticeable logistical problems already, without the silly m3/minute ammo chew rate of HAML IIs - however, its technically possible... easyer than fitting a nos in fact. On the other hand, drone damage is not modelled 100% accurately as its using 5 lights instead of 4 lights and 1 med. The Drake doesn't have any weapon in its 8th high as its not, as far as I know, realistically possible to fit anything in there along with 7 HAML IIs and the mods needed to get into HAM range and stay there. Not if you want to fit 2 BCU IIs anyway. If this is wrong, and you find a gun that's worth the bother of the ammo you have to take with you, please let me know. Now, on with the graphs! Current Situation: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^ ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.31 08:25:00 - [439] Here's a crazy idea. If the issue is the Mrym loosing drones then just give the supposed king of BC droneage the ability to just have so many drones that the pilot won't know what to do with them. But here's the trick so that its only Med drones that get this ability and not let it have heavies. "10% bonus hitpoints and damage to med drones per level." and "1 m3 less volume of Med drones per level." At level five you can hold the same number of light drones as Med drones (50!) but still falls under the "5 out at one time rule" to prevent it getting ridiculous. If they want to carry 50 t2 med drones they're welcome to carry them but even with the 5 out there if they can't kill it before it dies then it'll loose too much to ever be justified. I think this would aptly throw in enough risk/reward to carrying a full 50 t2 drones if they did. And let it have the same number of high slots but one less turret. ------------------ CEO of TKI
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.31 09:11:00 - [440] Originally by: keepiru Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^ your proposed realistic boost would give harbinger better dps at any! range over hurricane even with harb using 2nd tier guns while hurr uses 1st tier guns myrmidon would only do a little less dps at a small spot around the 5km mark, everwhere else it would do equal/superior damage while having a much better tank your first graph with the current stats looks a lot more balanced to me Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.31 09:12:00 - [441] That solves nothing. With 5 heavy drones the Myrmidon is only just level with the other tier-2 BCs as far as damage goes. With mediums? Its a waste of database entries, they might as well not put it live on TQ. It would be the Ares of Battlecruisers ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.31 11:14:00 - [442] Originally by: keepiru Good stuff Thank you for the helpful graphs that illustrate that the Drake is not going to kill everything that comes within 15km. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.31 13:07:00 - [443] Originally by: keepiru No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs. Just give it 250m3 and get it over with. Well, don¦t get me wrong, if the Myrmidon gets 250m3 drone bay I won¦t complain; I perfectly agree that it should be able to wield heavy drones. But, just by doing that, you allow a BC to weild same drone power than a dominix; now I don¦t even say the DPS would be overpowered or anything, but I think it is a bit unreasonnable to ask for such a large dronebay. Mediums aren¦t that bad, the are far faster to reach distant targets, track lighter ships but have less HP yes. Now, if you successfully convince Tuxford to increase the Myrmidon dronebay to wield 2 waves of 5 heavies drones, fine, I will light a candle for you in the lost and dusty pantheon of the Gallente heroes .
ClogMan Caldari Caldari Anvil	Posted - 2006.10.31 13:10:00 - [444] Can any tell me a bit about the Drakes damageoutput with HAL's and diff. ammo types?
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.31 13:17:00 - [445] Originally by: keepiru Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it. You don't think that 7/4/7 would be better, as it would be more "amarr like" and would provide more fitting flexibility? Originally by: keepiru No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs. Just give it 250m3 and get it over with. Might be a bit too much, 175m3 would give it the same drone space as a typhoon and a bit of flexibility. In any case the issue of preventing the DPS from the guns from adding up too much damage to this ship still has to be dealt with, it would seem that the PG on the ship would have to be decreased I would think. Also, 8 high slots is about 2 too many, but another lowslot would come in handy. Raptor and Ares Fix
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.31 13:18:00 - [446] Originally by: Kalhystia Well, don¦t get me wrong, if the Myrmidon gets 250m3 drone bay I won¦t complain; I perfectly agree that it should be able to wield heavy drones. But, just by doing that, you allow a BC to weild same drone power than a dominix; now I don¦t even say the DPS would be overpowered or anything, but I think it is a bit unreasonnable to ask for such a large dronebay. Not at all. As has been noted before, drones are only part of the equation of Dominix DPS, a huge part comes from guns. We're comparing: 5 x medium guns with no damage bonus vs 6 x large guns with +5% per level damage bonus That's a huge difference, and one one that pushes Dominix damage to "battleship level" while keeping the Myrm at "battlecruiser level". Medium drones just flat-out do not give enough DPS for a battlecruiser's primary weapon system, unless you give them enough damage bonus to make them near-equal to heavy drones -- which would be unbalanced. Various calculations have shown that the Myrmidon DPS would be just barely adaquate vs the other tier2's even with 5 heavy drones. There is no balance problem there. The only balance problem with drone boats in general has been the broken state of ECM. With that more of less fixed in Kali, drone boats need to do adaquate DPS in order to compete, they can't do the nosfe+drones+ECM trick anymore. Personally I'd be willing to lose one turret slot, or even two, if someone thought that would be needed to compensate (I don't, personally, but...). But the Myrmidon needs 5 heavy drones + spares (or alternatively more than 5 drones to control, but I don't see that happening). It would be interesting to get some dev feedback at some point. The general consensus here seems to be that the Myrmidon is clearly lacking, the other bcs are more or less in the right ballpark (but may also need some tweaking). I think the simplest fix is just to increase the drone bay to the 200m3 ballpark, and maybe remove one turret if needs be. Then test some more.
Alek Row Minmatar Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.31 13:18:00 - [447] Originally by: keepiru You're damned right it would, the Harbinger: has a MUCH harder time fitting guns is slower has a larger signature radius has about 60% of the tracking has no choice in damage type has a 14cap/sec draw with HP II (cannot be fit with MWD Injector and Rep) or 11cap/sec with focused pulse - this is in theory counterbalanced by a whole 0.694* better cap recharge - on top of the repper and mwd ONLY when comparing Pulses and ACs, there is Artillery and Beams too, and this 2 weapon systems have exactly the same cap requirements. And? That's not new when comparing Amarr and Minmatar ships. Harbinger still have a lower sig than the Drake. And the Harbinger is the second fastest bc. Drake and Myrmidon are slower than the Harbinger. For some reason the Harbinger have a better drone bay. Use the different damage types. Cap problems. Yep you do. You don't have reloads too (only thing I can say for that one, it's a lame thing to say, I know, but cap problems are not a new thing for Amarr). No ship should be an IWIN button, and your second graph shows the Harbinger as an IWIN button against all other Battlecruisers. Your 1st graph is WAY MORE balanced than the second one imo. I would understand a tanking bonus or a 7th low slot on the Harbinger, but better DPS than all other BCs at any range??? That's not balanced at all imo. ----- --- -- - - Hadean Drive Yards
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.31 14:04:00 - [448] Originally by: Alek Row No ship should be an IWIN button, and your second graph shows the Harbinger as an IWIN button against all other Battlecruisers. Your 1st graph is WAY MORE balanced than the second one imo. I would understand a tanking bonus or a 7th low slot on the Harbinger, but better DPS than all other BCs at any range??? That's not balanced at all imo. it would have better RAW-dps then the others. and compared to a drone, ac or missile boat it should have the best raw dps by far. simply because this raw dps will turn into a much lower number once you factor in resists and because lasers in contrast to drones, projectiles and missiles do use cap. a lot of it actually. seeing how kali will bring a hp boost for ships/plates/extenders fights will last longer there and cap management will become much more important. being able to use a capless weapon system is not just a slight advantage. its a rather big one. i for one would gladly trade my no-ammo consumption in for a zero-cap-using laser. no ammo use is really more a pve advantage anyway. sure with the longer fights with kali you may have to reload a few times to get through a harbingers hitpoints. on the other side you have the harbinger using his cap for ammo. cap booster charges are slightly larger than projectile ammo and thereby limit the number of times a laser using ship can reload by a lot. also note that once you do start to use t2 crystals our ammo does get used up. only we dont get the opportunity to bring just a few hundred rounds per gun. each crystal equals 1000 pieces of ammo. if we want to bring t2 ammo for 7 guns for both short and long range we need to buy 14000 rounds worth. and thats not including the possibility that they could run out while your at it.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.31 14:49:00 - [449] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 07:31:25 Allright, I got bored of looking @ other people's graphs, so I made my own - btw, NaughtyBoy and Chribba are made of pure 24-karat win. Anyway, I wanted to look at DPS @ Range and Cumulative Damage/Time @ fixed range - both with the ships as they are right now, and with the only realistically possible boosts for the 2 ships that are perceived as "weak", which is to say: 8th turret for Harbinger and 250m3 drone bay for Myrmidon. Before we start, a few notes about the highslot/drone setups of the ships here: The Hurricane uses a T2 Heavy Assault in the 8th high. This is actually very unlikely to happen, as even with the dps of HAML IIs most people will probably fit a nos, purely because the ammo draw of 7 ACs creates noticeable logistical problems already, without the silly m3/minute ammo chew rate of HAML IIs - however, its technically possible... easyer than fitting a nos in fact. On the other hand, drone damage is not modelled 100% accurately as its using 5 lights instead of 4 lights and 1 med. The Drake doesn't have any weapon in its 8th high as its not, as far as I know, realistically possible to fit anything in there along with 7 HAML IIs and the mods needed to get into HAM range and stay there. Not if you want to fit 2 BCU IIs anyway. If this is wrong, and you find a gun that's worth the bother of the ammo you have to take with you, please let me know. Now, on with the graphs! Current Situation: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^ Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Tiuwaz your proposed realistic boost would give harbinger better dps at any! range over hurricane even with harb using 2nd tier guns while hurr uses 1st tier guns You're damned right it would, the Harbinger: has a MUCH harder time fitting guns is slower has a larger signature radius has about 60% of the tracking has no choice in damage type has a 14cap/sec draw with HP II (cannot be fit with MWD Injector and Rep) or 11cap/sec with focused pulse - this is in theory counterbalanced by a whole 0.694* better cap recharge - on top of the repper and mwd Just for comparison, a T2 Med Rep draws 17.7 cap/sec. QFT. The Harbinger *needs* an 8th turret slot and the grid to fit it. Otherwise, why would I ever chooose it over the Hurricane? There are a lot of negatives to being Amarr, how about some positives to balance it out? I don't think its too much to ask. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Alek Row Minmatar Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.31 15:15:00 - [450] Edited by: Alek Row on 31/10/2006 15:15:39 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Stuff... Factoring resists, that ac ammo and cap will not be enough for that battle, that drones can be shoot at, that everybody have the same amount of skillpoints and that everybody will fit their ship in the exact same way are predictions. Battles can happen with millions of possibilites and different endings, depending of fittings, specializations, ammo type, tank type, drone types, distance to the battle, and so on... And that's what can give you the edge in a battle. And because of all that, I still think that no ship should have a better RAW-Dps than all others at ALL Ranges. And with all due respect to Udyr or Nyxus, but asking for a IWIN BC against all other BCs because "there are a lot of negatives to being Amarr", it surelly does not seem a good way to balance the Race as a whole. I still think that Harbinger should have a better tank, but for what I see on the graphs posted, DPS seems already balanced. ----- --- -- - - Hadean Drive Yards

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.31 15:16:00 - [451] Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 15:17:51 Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: keepiru Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it. You don't think that 7/4/7 would be better, as it would be more "amarr like" and would provide more fitting flexibility? Either works, but if you swap the utility for a low - I fragging hate utility slots, turn it into something actually useful either way - it needs a good cap boost. Either way: Harbinger w. HP II: 419MW left Harbinger w. FMP II: 1043.4MW left Hurricane w. 425mm II: 779.8MW left Hurricane w. 220mm II: 1057MW left Perphaps its time to bring HP II grid requirements down to be mroe in line with FMP II, as was done for Heavy Neutrons last time around? From a DPS POV, FMP IIs are mid-tier guns... Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: keepiru No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs. Just give it 250m3 and get it over with. Might be a bit too much, 175m3 would give it the same drone space as a typhoon and a bit of flexibility. In any case the issue of preventing the DPS from the guns from adding up too much damage to this ship still has to be dealt with, it would seem that the PG on the ship would have to be decreased I would think. Also, 8 high slots is about 2 too many, but another lowslot would come in handy. But the EOS has 300m3, and the Ishtar has 275m3... no, I don't think 175m3 is nearly enough. This is a ship that has to compete with HACs and other BCs, not just swat cruisers around. You risk ending with the same situation as the NH, a ship that fails at playing on the same level as its peers. Originally by: Alek Row ONLY when comparing Pulses and ACs, there is Artillery and Beams too, and this 2 weapon systems have exactly the same cap requirements. And? That's not new when comparing Amarr and Minmatar ships. Harbinger still have a lower sig than the Drake. And the Harbinger is the second fastest bc. Drake and Myrmidon are slower than the Harbinger. For some reason the Harbinger have a better drone bay. Use the different damage types. Cap problems. Yep you do. You don't have reloads too (only thing I can say for that one, it's a lame thing to say, I know, but cap problems are not a new thing for Amarr). No ship should be an IWIN button, and your second graph shows the Harbinger as an IWIN button against all other Battlecruisers. Your 1st graph is WAY MORE balanced than the second one imo. I would understand a tanking bonus or a 7th low slot on the Harbinger, but better DPS than all other BCs at any range??? That's not balanced at all imo. Artillery and beams you say? Indeed, the Harbinger fits HB IIs easyer than the Hurricane fits 720mmm IIs. However, take this into consideration. 7x 720mm IIs, cap draw: 0. 7x Heavy Beams IIs, cap draw: 20cap/sec. I'll let you imagine how long your cap will last when firing beams. Hint: You'll cap out way before you kill your target, unless you're popping frigs. BTW, reload time is factored into the damage/time graphs already. The bottom line is, right now the Harbinger and Hurricane are pretty similar, but the Harbinger is essentially worse in every respect, if not by much. I'm proposing to give it the ability to outdamage the Hurricane, but with unchanged fittings and cap. I'm sure you can see that hardly makes for a pwnmobile with the lenght of fights in Kali. The other option is to swap the utility for a low and give it a cap boost, so while being larger, slower and with worse tracking and worse overall cap, it will have the ability to tank more. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Alek Row Minmatar Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.31 15:28:00 - [452] Originally by: keepiru The other option is to swap the utility for a low and give it a cap boost, so while being larger, slower and with worse tracking and worse overall cap, it will have the ability to tank more. And that's the option I like for the Harbinger. In your first option you're out-DPSing everybody at all ranges, not only Hurricane. About Beams and Artillery you're right, but I think that's why Beams have way more DPS than Arties, is this correct? ( Nope, I'm not an EvE expert, only 4.5m sp at the moment ) ----- --- -- - - Hadean Drive Yards
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.31 15:53:00 - [453] I'd expect the Harbinger outdamages the Hurricane w. long-range weapons, yes (up to a certain range when the 720s actually pull ahead). The brutix would come close if it had the grid to 250mm IIs (and outrange the harbinger by a chunk too), but tux still hasn't given in to my pestering about letting gallente sub-battleships fit proper sized guns without a bendover, like the thron does. However, artillery is very much under discussion right now - a 50% hp boost is a direct nerf to alpha-strike and a dps boost of some sort is not unlikely. I will wait and see what happens in that respect... either way, the Hurricane is the ship I will be flying for PVP. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.31 15:56:00 - [454] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/10/2006 16:03:25 Actually, weapon vs weapon ACs autodamage pulses (with the first shipbonus). At a lower range, of cource. But the hurricane has a speed advantage and can control it. The reason the Harbringer has more dps lies in it's bigger drone bay. And, yes, higher speed and lower sig are typical minmatar advantages. But that does not make them invalid for comparing the ships. And there are also problems there. For which race would you say is "tanking" a typical advantage? And hurriance can fit a better tank than the Harbringer - it has more grid left after ACs and does not need to use cap to sustain it's weapon fire. The higher caprecharge of the harbringer is only enough to counter about 15% of the total capdrain of 7 heavy pulse 2 at peak recharge.
Alek Row Minmatar Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.31 16:41:00 - [455] Edited by: Alek Row on 31/10/2006 16:42:49 Originally by: Aramendel And hurriance <- can fit a better tank than the Harbringer - it has more grid left after ACs and does not need to use cap to sustain it's weapon fire. The higher caprecharge of the harbringer is only enough to counter about 15% of the total capdrain of 7 heavy pulse 2 at peak recharge. I have to agree, that's why I think the Harbinger could use a better tank, or a 7th low slot with more cap or a tanking bonus (don't know how this bonus change would be accepted by the Amarr Comunity tbh). About the Hurricane speed and the fact that it is an advantage, I think that some people will shield tank the Hurricane in PVP with nanos and gyros in lows, not leaving room for a web in the mids. I know I'm only making assumptions now... With 4 mids, both ships can be bit impredictable on their fittings, we have a nice array of modules to install in the 4 mids, and with a 75m3 drone bay the Harbinger can even put 3 webfier drones too per example (maybe it's a really dumb ideia, I don't know how much this drones really web or if they are really usefull). Because of this not-so-vast-but-not-so-small array of choices in the way we can fit the ship, modules/drones can balance one battle for one side or the other, and because of that no BC should out-DPS all others at all ranges by default... that's what I meant. Sorry for repeating myself. ----- --- -- - - Hadean Drive Yards
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.31 17:18:00 - [456] 50m3 IIRC. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.31 17:46:00 - [457] Edited by: Blind Man on 31/10/2006 17:46:28 these are t1 ships people... at those graphs.. /me hits self for training command ships 5 It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.31 22:45:00 - [458] Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: keepiru Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^ your proposed realistic boost would give harbinger better dps at any! range over hurricane even with harb using 2nd tier guns while hurr uses 1st tier guns myrmidon would only do a little less dps at a small spot around the 5km mark, everwhere else it would do equal/superior damage while having a much better tank your first graph with the current stats looks a lot more balanced to me /agreed Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.31 23:10:00 - [459] Originally by: Alek Row I have to agree, that's why I think the Harbinger could use a better tank, or a 7th low slot with more cap or a tanking bonus (don't know how this bonus change would be accepted by the Amarr Comunity tbh). The the dps would fall significantly below every other tier 2 BC. It's not really a solution. Quote: About the Hurricane speed and the fact that it is an advantage, I think that some people will shield tank the Hurricane in PVP with nanos and gyros in lows, not leaving room for a web in the mids. I know I'm only making assumptions now... People being stupid and trying to use the Hurrican as big vaga (which won't really work) is not exactly a balance argument. Quote: With 4 mids, both ships can be bit impredictable on their fittings, we have a nice array of modules to install in the 4 mids, and with a 75m3 drone bay the Harbinger can even put 3 webfier drones too per example (maybe it's a really dumb ideia, I don't know how much this drones really web or if they are really usefull). Apart from the 50m¦ there is this problem that web drones get killed really really fast by medium-small weapons. Or enemy drones.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.10.31 23:16:00 - [460] I think the Myrmidon is the ultimate proof for the fact that having the amount of drones a ship can launch and the amount of drones a ship can carry be the same basic stat is not a very good system. Ships should have a number of controll points that limit the number of drones they can launch, and the bay should be independent from that, so that you can have a carrier that uses medium drones without having to ruin its ability to have backups so it doesn't launch heavies instead...

Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.31 23:34:00 - [461] Originally by: Noriath I think the Myrmidon is the ultimate proof for the fact that having the amount of drones a ship can launch and the amount of drones a ship can carry be the same basic stat is not a very good system. Ships should have a number of controll points that limit the number of drones they can launch, and the bay should be independent from that, so that you can have a carrier that uses medium drones without having to ruin its ability to have backups so it doesn't launch heavies instead... Huh? CEO - Art of War
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.31 23:53:00 - [462] hurricane don't work well as a bigger vaga... the ship is too slow and cumbersome tried for fun to fit nanos and a phoon works waaaay better :P still i don't see all this thing about hurricane with better fitting/tank than harbringer 425mm vs focused pulse gives almost same dps with focused with more range, more fitting, more base tank... hurricane have to fit 220mm to get a similar fitting/tanking and this impact a bit both the range and dps... when i saw first comments about harb i tought that something went wrong in its design, but more i look into it and more it seem a fine ship to me... dps is good, speed is good, tankage is good, range is good, the only real weakness is the cap... but is also an amarr ship
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.01 01:24:00 - [463] 220mm have the same range as 425... well, possibly a few hundred m less optimal but you still have 8km falloff so shrug When you do that the Hurricane (which is faster and more agile, and dictates range) can easily get into the range sweetspot where it is both doing more damage, and way below your optimal using your weaker tracking against you. And of course, since it has more cap play with, gets hit less and has the same number of lowslots and you both lack a tank bonus, it tanks better. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.01 01:38:00 - [464] there is not really a range sweetspot for the hurricane harbringer have more range and even at close range the dps is veery similar... so you can't do as with a blasterboat where you (try) to keep distance to reduce his dps... this is the benefit that longer range gives to harbringer hur vs har as said i will prefer to stay in the hur, but simply because it will perform overall better in this situation, not cause the 2 ships are umbalanced
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.01 02:15:00 - [465] Edited by: keepiru on 01/11/2006 02:20:58 I'm sorry, but thats not true. Take a look, and keep in mind this doesn't even include the effect of tracking: 220mm II vs. FPM II And before you ask, no, it doesn't change much at all with secondary weapons, see here ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.01 02:44:00 - [466] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 01/11/2006 02:20:58 I'm sorry, but thats not true. Take a look, and keep in mind this doesn't even include the effect of tracking: 220mm II vs. FPM II And before you ask, no, it doesn't change much at all with secondary weapons, see here but in your second graph they have no more a similar setup... hurricane is using the heavy assault the harbringer have a nos... personaly i'll take the nos over the HAM, imo is waaaay more benefical in short range combat
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.01 03:10:00 - [467] Yeah but: Harb w. Nos, Hurricane w/out nos: Advantage Hurricane, still has more cap for tank, does more damage. Harb and Hurricane both w. Nos: Advantage Hurricane, does very similar damage with way more cap for tank. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.01 03:41:00 - [468] Originally by: keepiru But the EOS has 300m3, and the Ishtar has 275m3... no, I don't think 175m3 is nearly enough. Ishtar is 375m3 w/ max skills. It's one of the things that I find annoying about the Eos - for a drone ship, it doesn't do a very good job of it. Raptor and Ares Fix
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.01 03:51:00 - [469] And anything less than 250m3 will make the Myrm a decent drone boat how? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.01 04:38:00 - [470] Originally by: keepiru Yeah but: Harb w. Nos, Hurricane w/out nos: Advantage Hurricane, still has more cap for tank, does more damage. Harb and Hurricane both w. Nos: Advantage Hurricane, does very similar damage with way more cap for tank. mmmm hurr vs har i think hurr have most of its advantage in res... hur and harb both with nos i bet on the hur... hur with missile, harb with nos... imo is way closer but my point was mostly that HAM vs nos is a fair tradeoff and looking at the graph with hur using HAM you should take that into account... as said imho the 2 ships are quite balanced and they shine in different situations and against different enemies... also i'm not saying that they are perfectly balanced, the hur can be overall a bit better, but imo not to the point to make the ship really umbalanced and for sure not to the degree i read in this topic (expecially on some of the firsts posts)...

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.01 04:41:00 - [471] Well, I still say at the very least that 7th high needs to move to the lows =P And they better fix the model so the 7th gun doesn't make it look lopsided anymore =P ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.01 05:07:00 - [472] Argh, some of you really frustrate me. :p Not all of the new ships are supposed to be tactically identical. The Drake and Myrmidon are more tanking ships than ships designed to dish out firepower, and the Harbinger and Hurricane are more for laying out the damage. A damage ship should not have seven lowslots for tanking, so why are people complaining that it doesn't? Admittedly it seems that the Hurricane has a stronger tank than it should, but remember that the Harbinger stands out above the other battlecruisers in that it has more capacitor--the others are all equally below the Harbinger. Certainly, the capacitor drain of lasers is significant, and so perhaps the Hurricane's capacitor should be reduced to 2000; but don't go adding and removing slots. As a general rule, missile ships do far less damage than turret ships, but they have the freedom of manueverability (not constrained by transversal, etc) and a tank that is extremely strong for an extremely short amount of time. The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs). Now, last words about the Myrmidon.. why do people insist that it be able to field four wings of heavy drones with a damage and hitpoints bonus? EVE is about making choices-- that's why we have skills that encourage specialization, that's why we have CPU/Powergrid constraints, that's why the races involve different tactics, that's why a battleship cannot (any longer) one-shot a frigate orbiting it at 500 meters. There is no "WIN" button in EVE, so stop trying to make one. With the Myrmidon, you can either field four heavy drones (with a damage and hitpoints bonus), two wings of five medium drones each, or four wings of light drones, or a combination somewhere between them. Has anybody considered logistics/electronic warfare drones?; it's designed to survive, so it wouldn't perform too poorly in a support role. Sure, give it the sixth turret slot so the graphics look all spiffy, and then leave it alone. Personally, I hope they all suck, but look cool, so that everybody will buy them and blow them up, needing to buy more from me. :D Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC]
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.01 05:56:00 - [473] Originally by: Packtu'sa Argh, some of you really frustrate me. :p The feeling is mutual, I assure you. Originally by: Packtu'sa Not all of the new ships are supposed to be tactically identical. The Drake and Myrmidon are more tanking ships than ships designed to dish out firepower, and the Harbinger and Hurricane are more for laying out the damage. A damage ship should not have seven lowslots for tanking, so why are people complaining that it doesn't? Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot. Originally by: Packtu'sa Admittedly it seems that the Hurricane has a stronger tank than it should, but remember that the Harbinger stands out above the other battlecruisers in that it has more capacitor--the others are all equally below the Harbinger. Wow, a whole 250 more cap, yup, that will definitely cover the guns that draw as much or more cap/sec than a MAR II.... Originally by: Packtu'sa Certainly, the capacitor drain of lasers is significant, and so perhaps the Hurricane's capacitor should be reduced to 2000; but don't go adding and removing slots. Why not? Why should all ships be identical in slot setup? We're not talking about adding or removing, we're talking about moving a slot, so that the Harbinger goes from being a cheap copy of the Hurricane to being an Amarr ship worth flying for anyone but RP'ers - rememeber with BC5 you just need to spec for the guns to switch race, so why would anyone fly the Harbinger over the Hurricane, apart from when ratting (no ammo). The Hurricane's cap is fine, its the Harbinger that needs more. Originally by: Packtu'sa As a general rule, missile ships do far less damage than turret ships, but they have the freedom of manueverability (not constrained by transversal, etc) and a tank that is extremely strong for an extremely short amount of time. The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs). Uh, perhaps you need to actually get on the test server and see what a Drake can tank before you make such sweeping statements about tank bonuses... not that its any different from now, even on TQ resists bonus are miles better than repped/boosted bonuses in every situation. Originally by: Packtu'sa Now, last words about the Myrmidon.. why do people insist that it be able to field four wings of heavy drones with a damage and hitpoints bonus? EVE is about making choices-- that's why we have skills that encourage specialization, that's why we have CPU/Powergrid constraints, that's why the races involve different tactics, that's why a battleship cannot (any longer) one-shot a frigate orbiting it at 500 meters. There is no "WIN" button in EVE, so stop trying to make one. With the Myrmidon, you can either field four heavy drones (with a damage and hitpoints bonus), two wings of five medium drones each, or four wings of light drones, or a combination somewhere between them. Has anybody considered logistics/electronic warfare drones?; it's designed to survive, so it wouldn't perform too poorly in a support role. Sure, give it the sixth turret slot so the graphics look all spiffy, and then leave it alone. Because 4 heavy drones will just you killed, and medium drones from a 35m isk ship with a 300m sig thats slower than a typhoon is 1) a waste of money (hello, vexor anyone?) and 2) will just get you killed. In a nutshell, the Myrmidon with anything less than 5 heavy drones with bonus and replacements is a waste of space, isk, trainign time, and database entries. If it cant compete toe-to-toe with the ishtar, then its pointless as a battlecruiser. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.01 22:54:00 - [474] Edited by: Areconus on 01/11/2006 22:55:49 "Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot." Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time. "The Hurricane's cap is fine, its the Harbinger that needs more." I agree with you on that. THe Hurricane's cap and slots should be left alone, instead, it is the harbinger that needs a tad bit of change, and not in a way that will give it est tank and damage at same time Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.01 23:00:00 - [475] I'm not sure if it has been mentioned but why not just do something with medium and heavy drones instead? I very seldom see people bothering with medium drones. Why not just adjust the damage and the tracking on mediums and heavies? Make it so that medium drones work on cruisers and up and heavy drones (except maybe the berserker) work best against battleships. I'm not sure how great a solution it is to just increase the myrmidon drone bay. Something like that may just fix other issues with drone usage on non-drone based ships.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.01 23:04:00 - [476] Originally by: Areconus "Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot." Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time. Sounds to me like YOU are being sarcastic. No matter what you do, the Hurricane is a better tank. They both have the same lowslots, both lack a tank bonus, and the Hurricane will always have more cap available, as well as getting hit less thanks to smaller sig and being faster... And if you want to super-plate, the Hurricane is better again, since Amarr dont have a dual180mm equivalent. And the Hurricane outdamages the Harbinger... so uh, can I have some of what you're smoking? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.01 23:10:00 - [477] Edited by: Goumindong on 01/11/2006 23:21:59 Originally by: Areconus Edited by: Areconus on 01/11/2006 22:55:49 "Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot." Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time. No, we dont want both at the same time, but we want one of them, at least some of the time. At the moment, there is no Harbinger setup that tanks better than a similar Hurricane setup. O.K. Not such an issue, the Hurricane has tank over the Harbinger. Problem: While doing that, the Hurricane also does significantly[about 50% more for the guins] more damage than the Harbinger due to the Harbinger needing to fit projectiles in order to have a similar tank than the Hurricane. Well, that ain so bad, so long as the Harbinger, if it fits lasers does more damage than the hurricane. Nope, a Harbinger and Hurricane both fitted out for damage and the Hurricane does just as much as the Harbinger! So, when the Harbinger tries to tank, it tanks as well as a hurricane [technically worse, due to the speed and sig boosts from the Hurricane making it harder to hit/do damage too, though i doubt its that significant] and does 66% of the damage. And when a Harbinber tries to gank, it ganks just as well as the Hurricane, but the hurricane has a stronger tank. I.E. the Hurricane is better at both ganking and tanking in all similar situations over the Harbinger. If you were going to decide which one to fly, with equal skills, you would never, ever fly the Harbinger, because for whatever your goal[gank or tank], the Hurricane would be better at it, or just as good at it while being better in other, relevent, areas. This is why the Harbinger needs to be changed so that at least if it decides to, it do something better than the Hurricane, whether that single something is tank, or gank, or EW, or anything really, is up in the air. But at the moment it is nothing.
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.01 23:14:00 - [478] Edited by: Areconus on 01/11/2006 23:18:06 Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Areconus "Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot." Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time. Sounds to me like YOU are being sarcastic. No matter what you do, the Hurricane is a better tank. They both have the same lowslots, both lack a tank bonus, and the Hurricane will always have more cap available, as well as getting hit less thanks to smaller sig and being faster... And if you want to super-plate, the Hurricane is better again, since Amarr dont have a dual180mm equivalent. And the Hurricane outdamages the Harbinger... so uh, can I have some of what you're smoking? No, im not being sarcastic about anything. Did you read the rest of my post? I also said that the Harb should get a slight boost to do one of these jobs better. But, you said tanking and damage are the amarr thing. Not at the same time pal! Like I said, increase harbinger cap, give it an xtra low slot, do something! It needs the ability to outperform the hurricane at tanking or damage, when it is fitted for it. Besides, why doesnt CCP just decrease cap usage on ALL amarr guns? Would solve quite a few problems.... Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.01 23:48:00 - [479] Originally by: Logan Xerxes Originally by: keepiru Good stuff Thank you for the helpful graphs that illustrate that the Drake is not going to kill everything that comes within 15km. One should note, though, that this is only for T1 ammo. T2 ammo is changing this, especially the javelin assaults. Instead having 99 dps post 15 km the drake has with those 484 dps from 15-50 km.
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.11.02 00:03:00 - [480] Originally by: Packtu'sa Now, last words about the Myrmidon.. why do people insist that it be able to field four wings of heavy drones with a damage and hitpoints bonus? EVE is about making choices-- that's why we have skills that encourage specialization, that's why we have CPU/Powergrid constraints, that's why the races involve different tactics The Myrmidon can right now only hold four heavy drones period, not even a single wing of heavy drones. It would be nice if those of us who specialized in drones and chose to run without using CPU/Powergrid on turrets could employ our own unique tactics that may involve a Gallente racial base. I don't want to be forced into the typical "lots of guns and gun damage boost" that many ships get. I want a ship designed for drones, and I want a ship that will let me benefit from my drone skills, and a ship that my drones can benefit from. If you tie an increased deployed-drones count to perhaps Advanced Drone Interfacing, to reward players who take such an out-there skill, awesome.

Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.02 05:41:00 - [481] The real question is simple: Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships? Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Wintermoon Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.02 06:18:00 - [482] Why not think about taking the myrmidon in a completely different direction? It will only be either compared to the vexor as an overexpensive version of it or to the dominix which does the same job better for only a little more ISK. Personally, I'd go for a 5% damage bonus and a sensor dampening bonus, given it had 6 turrets and lost a low slot to a mid slot. It would fit better the part of the description that mentions this being more for the cautious gallente pilot. Also offers a completely different alternative to the brutix and the other battlecruisers.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.02 07:19:00 - [483] Originally by: Nyxus The real question is simple: Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships? Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too. Nyxus Hurricane looks a lot better why to fly a harb? imo range... we are speaking about BCs so cumbersome and slow ships, you can't really dictate range (except against some other bcs and bs) so range here can be quite benefical as you will not get outranged by fast ships and you can outrange some enemy ships (i think brutix is slower) dps is almost identical considering drones and gunds... hur can fit the HAM but i consider it a fair trade for the nos tanking is in no way inferior, hur and har have an almost identical fitting with similar guns with harbringer having around 20% more base armor... the difference is not huge but for sure is not inferior to the hur the difference is basically cap usage for range and ammo comsumption
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.02 08:12:00 - [484] Originally by: Packtu'sa The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs). The other way round, the repair bonus is only useful for low and steady damage. At max skills, the +25 resistance is equal to the following bonuses: +33.3% to shield size (which results in +33.3% better shield recharge) +33.3% to shield boost For Drake, the bonus is a bit better than a free large T2 extender (with the 50% bonus) plus a shield boost amplifier. Oh, and a 33.3% bonus to any actual extenders fitted. For Myrmidon, the 37.5% bonus is equal to 0.75 times a small repper that doesn't use cap (times the actual med reppers present). I wouldn't call that identical. -- NMTZ forum
Captain Raynor	Posted - 2006.11.02 08:43:00 - [485] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 07:31:25 Allright, I got bored of looking @ other people's graphs, so I made my own - btw, NaughtyBoy and Chribba are made of pure 24-karat win. Anyway, I wanted to look at DPS @ Range and Cumulative Damage/Time @ fixed range - both with the ships as they are right now, and with the only realistically possible boosts for the 2 ships that are perceived as "weak", which is to say: 8th turret for Harbinger and 250m3 drone bay for Myrmidon. Before we start, a few notes about the highslot/drone setups of the ships here: The Hurricane uses a T2 Heavy Assault in the 8th high. This is actually very unlikely to happen, as even with the dps of HAML IIs most people will probably fit a nos, purely because the ammo draw of 7 ACs creates noticeable logistical problems already, without the silly m3/minute ammo chew rate of HAML IIs - however, its technically possible... easyer than fitting a nos in fact. On the other hand, drone damage is not modelled 100% accurately as its using 5 lights instead of 4 lights and 1 med. The Drake doesn't have any weapon in its 8th high as its not, as far as I know, realistically possible to fit anything in there along with 7 HAML IIs and the mods needed to get into HAM range and stay there. Not if you want to fit 2 BCU IIs anyway. If this is wrong, and you find a gun that's worth the bother of the ammo you have to take with you, please let me know. Now, on with the graphs! Current Situation: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^ Okay well.. the "realistic" boost graph scares me.. it has the Harbinger doing insane DPS, way too high for a tech I battlecruiser... The Harb probably should have a tad more cap, that is if it has cap issues, which I don't know as I haven't flown one yet.. I think an 8th turret would be overkill. 725DPS is quite a lot.. I will admit the Hurricane is quite good, but I don't think it needs to be nerfed, maybe lose a turret slot if anything.. but that is probably not necessary. Why does the Hurricane and Harbinger have the same sensor strength? Shouldn't the Hurricane have less? I always thought Minmatar was supposed to be the easiest to jam, but they both have 16 strength. The Myrmidon does need more drone space, but not that much more, I think 175m3 would be sufficient for this ship.. 250m3 would be overkill, this ship does get a decent drone bonus and it's a pretty tank oriented ship with that armor rep bonus.. unlike the harb/hurr which seems to be all out DPS. 175m3 would give the Myrmidon the ability to use 5 heavy drones with a few spare or a LOT of mediums.. I guess that's fair.. honestly people want this ship to be a DPS monster but that's already really the role of the Brutix so I don't know if the Myrmidon should be that much of a DPS king, I do believe its kinda gimped with it's current 100m3 dronebay though. Drake looks pretty balanced to me, I think t1 HAM range should be 20KM with max skills though, not 15KM judging by those graphs.. seems like the Drake can get pretty out DPS/Ranged from 15KM-20KM and it's ofc the slowest of the tier2 battlecruisers.. will definitely need to use t2 javelins on this ship in PvP and reserve t2 rage for if you are lucky enough to get someone hideously close.. still that's not much of an option for most people who will fly this ship and can't use tech II launchers on it. =P HAM don't really have the uber DPS people been saying they do considering their relatively short range and the horrible mass/speed of the Drake itself. The real Jim Raynor.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.02 09:51:00 - [486] Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: Nyxus The real question is simple: Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships? Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too. Nyxus Hurricane looks a lot better why to fly a harb? imo range... we are speaking about BCs so cumbersome and slow ships, you can't really dictate range (except against some other bcs and bs) so range here can be quite benefical as you will not get outranged by fast ships and you can outrange some enemy ships (i think brutix is slower) dps is almost identical considering drones and gunds... hur can fit the HAM but i consider it a fair trade for the nos tanking is in no way inferior, hur and har have an almost identical fitting with similar guns with harbringer having around 20% more base armor... the difference is not huge but for sure is not inferior to the hur the difference is basically cap usage for range and ammo comsumption Why is anything fast enough to dictate range against you going to stick around in your wheel house when they will invariably have optimals at different ranges? Why wont they close the distance to pounce your terrible tracking, or run the distance out to take advantage of your granual like falloff? In order for longer range to be a benefit, you have to be able to dictate at what range the encounter happens. The Harbinger cannot do this. If it fits HP/FMP's and faces a fast long range ship, its going to get outranged. If it faces a fast short range ship, the short range ship is going to close until its under the Harbingers tracking/in its own wheel house. You will be able to dictate range to Battleships and some BC's in this situation. Well kinda, if they are close range they will probably have a MWD on, and they are close range unless they are another Harbinger. Problem, the Harbinger cant run the MWD nessesary to dicate range and fire its guns at the same time, not enough cap, especialy if he needs to make any repairs. If the Harbinger is fitted long it has similar issues, ships that get under its optimal will decimate it, it will be even with ships that want to fight at the same distance and ships that want to go long can simply go long. Medium Range only works if you have a means of keeping your enemies in medium range. If you dont, it doesnt work. Blasterboats are going to ram you, AC's are going to orbit really really close and long range runs are going to go long. How do you plan to dictate range with a harbinger? 2 Heavy Webber Drones? Will that slow down an MWD rammer? Will that shop a sniper from running long? Range is only a benefit if you can dictate where and how the encounter happens, and the Harbinger cant dictate where and how the encounter happens[except in fleet battles, but even then, im not really sure how much use it will be after the first seconds]. And no one is going to want to stick around in its wheelhouse, because their wheelhouses are in different spots.
Freakus Geekus	Posted - 2006.11.02 10:52:00 - [487] Originally by: Bramson Myrmidon With the new BC for Caldari which is more like a CARACAL and a mini Raven - you would think it would have the normal % bonus to kinetic missile damage and missile velocity bonus. Giving it the 5% shield per level as well is pretty extreme ;). The Raven does not get a kinetic missile damage bonus. Originally by: Old Geeza Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. If you're that paranoid, reduce the ROF bonus, but don't be a sick and evil fiend and reduce it to being a purely kinetic based platform. Doing that effectively makes the ship useless as everyone knows to tank kinetic damage when fighting people in those ships. Of course, I don't know if you including the reload times in your damage calculations... Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei replace 5% shield resist bonus with 10% missile velocity- this make it even more of a killing machine but a lot more vulnerable. It also makes sense for consitencies's sake and don't raise its dps any further which is important I'd go along with that one happily! I don't mind having a weak tank if I have the damage output to make up for it, which I thought was the POINT of the tier 2 battlecruisers...
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.02 11:18:00 - [488] Originally by: Nyxus The real question is simple: Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships? Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too. Well. its technically a better long-range ship from 0 to 15km. After 15km the Hurricane soundly outdamages it. Soooo... not really much of a reason. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:37:00 - [489] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Packtu'sa The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs). The other way round, the repair bonus is only useful for low and steady damage. At max skills, the +25 resistance is equal to the following bonuses: +33.3% to shield size (which results in +33.3% better shield recharge) +33.3% to shield boost For Drake, the bonus is a bit better than a free large T2 extender (with the 50% bonus) plus a shield boost amplifier. Oh, and a 33.3% bonus to any actual extenders fitted. For Myrmidon, the 37.5% bonus is equal to 0.75 times a small repper that doesn't use cap (times the actual med reppers present). I wouldn't call that identical. Quoting myself, but what the hey... Did the calcs, and the result when comparing 25% armor resistance bonus with 37.5% armor boost bonus (shield regeneration would muck the situation a lot) was: When the incoming damage exceeds the unmodified repair capability by 50%, the bonuses are equal. Above that, resistance bonus always gives you longer life. On MAR II with max skills, the point is at about 54 DoT after resistances. If the damage is resisted at 70% (not a bad tank), that's 180 pure DoT. With shields, the effective bonus to passive recharge would mean that the passive bonus would start to dominate even earlier. Of course, one bonus needs an active module and the other is useful in every situation. To summarise: if you are in a cruiser with one med repper with about 70% resistances, you are better off with the repair bonus if you are against 1-3 frigs. In every other case, resistance bonus wins. -- NMTZ forum
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:23:00 - [490] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Nyxus The real question is simple: Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships? Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too. Well. its technically a better long-range ship from 0 to 15km. After 15km the Hurricane soundly outdamages it. Soooo... not really much of a reason. from 0 to 15km is not that long range :P also with more drones and laser with higher range i don't see how hurr it can outdamage it outside 15km... using arties vs beam i think the harbringer should do more dmg/gun, if so then there is no way an hurrican can outdamage it (again similar config)

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:40:00 - [491] Edited by: keepiru on 02/11/2006 13:43:36 Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal. And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period. With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless. Take a look: Short-Range Long-Range Notes: that Ferox in the graph has 7 turrets, the Brutix can't really fit 250mm IIs, and its also missing a plate in an Ion II setup, when Harbi and Hurri have to drop plate only to fit neutron-equiv. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Peppy LePew	Posted - 2006.11.02 14:26:00 - [492] I know EVE is about PvP but... I honestly don't think these ships were designed for head to head PvP. And I also don't think any of them will be effective at it. Or at least no more than the existing BCs. Big like battleships, yet less damaging, I see the current and the upcoming battlecruisers as easy-to-afford and effective PvE ships, possibly a stepping-stone to battleships and definitely a stepping stone to command ships. They are fat, and lack firepower, none of them can easily dictate range. They have no EWAR bonuses whatsoever. Yes, they can use multiple gang modules to be helpful in fleet vs fleet situations, but otherwise why would you fly one in PvP other than "for a challenge"? I ask this due to most of the complaints in this topic being directly in question of these ships' PvP capabilities (often comparing them against eachother). But how often will this actually happen? Because I do not see them as anything more than gang support outside of PvE. Now that I've said my peace on that subject... some other stuff: Command Ship prices are unimportant, and a silly comparison. Even if the new BCs do the SAME damage as a Command Ship, Commands are still far superior gang support, as they were meant to be. If they do become less useful their prices will simply drop. T2 HAMs may be too good, maybe not. But compare them with other T2 ammo. If anything, you will never in a million years create a sniping platform out of a Drake . In fact a Ferox is a better choice for long range PvP even with it's pathetic (read: zero) damage bonus. And last I checked it took a single defender missile to pop a Heavy Missile, anyone tested this with HAMs? And yes I know defenders will not be viable from close ranges but they definitely are useful at 30kms and above, and shorter distances without lag. Given long enough range, I have no doubts a single rocket launcher with defenders will allow you to pop 3 heavy missiles out of the 7 a Drake can fire. Giving the Myrm a 125m3 drone bay.. It won't be overpowered and maybe the Gallente will be happy so go for it. But not any bigger, why would you want another big, slow drone ship? If you do make it bigger, give it some less versatility and make it better at drones than with guns, but not a weird combination of both, IMO. (But hey, maybe that's what it was meant to be?) The capacitor drain of the Amarr ship is worse than that of other Amarr ships how? I sympathize with the complaint but I see it as a problem with Amarr ships in general, not necessarily a problem with the Harbinger. Even the ships with laser capacitor use bonuses are still cap hogs if I understand correctly. What about the Drake? It's going to need those resists if it intends to use HAMs at all. It can't fit a good active tank with HAMSs because it will absolutely need to MWD, probably with nanos and probably also a web just to keep it's target in range. Yes, just like a blaster ship yet unlike a gun ship it is NOT viable for long range. Even if you see one target you, you have plenty of time to warp out before those missiles reach you. Don't change the Drake, pretty please? Nobody has made a valid complaint about it so it must be perfect, now buff the other BCs if anything, thanks! I wish I had more to say but it's early and brain is still half asleep. You may now poke and prod me at your liesure.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.02 14:37:00 - [493] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 02/11/2006 13:43:36 Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal. And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period. With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless. Take a look: Short-Range Long-Range Notes: that Ferox in the graph has 7 turrets, the Brutix can't really fit 250mm IIs, and its also missing a plate in an Ion II setup, when Harbi and Hurri have to drop plate only to fit neutron-equiv. if you look at t2 ammos the picture is quite different, for long range no need to look at t1 as they are quite inferior
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.02 14:48:00 - [494] I'm not going to consider T2 ammo as 1) it should not be a necessity to fit T2 ammo to compete and 2) the whole of T2 ammo balance/stats is up in the air right now. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Steppa Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.02 15:05:00 - [495] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Packtu'sa If it cant compete toe-to-toe with the ishtar, then its pointless as a battlecruiser. As a dedicated Ishtar pilot (I own four), this should be where a drone battlecruiser's capabilities BEGIN. When you are talking about the race who made drones their "thing", you have to consider that a pilot heavily skilled at drone use is going to use them as his primary weaponry. All drone boats should get a drone bonus (damage or tracking or speed)and a drone bay volume bonus. I would sacrifice turret slots to be able to tank and fly my wings of drones. If the argument is then, "well, its just a bigger Ishtar", then FINE!!! However, in the interest of diversity, I wouldn't mind a drone/turret hybrid, but the drone bay bonus needs to stay. If you really want to make it useful, make the bonuses reflect the way most Ishtar pilots fly their ships...give us an mwd or ab bonus and tie it to increased drone bay volume. Most of us try to "get under the guns" and pound away with drones anyway.
SmokeDog	Posted - 2006.11.02 18:46:00 - [496] Ugh.. Kinetic Missile Damage bonus would kill the Drake.. it's fine as it is, it's very much in line with the other battlecruisers right now. Don't turn it into a 50mil isk Caracal.. I think both the Harb and Hurricane are insanely powerful, without the ROF bonus the Drake would become total garbage.. It does less DPS and has very poor range so why take away its resistance bonus? It would be quite easily picked apart without it since it lacks the DPS of the other tier2 battlecruisers, even with the "uber" HAMs.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.02 19:55:00 - [497] Needs more testing, but I don't think there's anything particularly "overpowered" about the drake. Sure, it can mount a really, really strong tank and still do very good damage, but when it does that it'll have at most a scrambler. Not really that hard a target to wear down. If it actually tries to dictate range, then its tank gets progressively weaker... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
SmokeDog	Posted - 2006.11.02 20:03:00 - [498] Originally by: keepiru Needs more testing, but I don't think there's anything particularly "overpowered" about the drake. Sure, it can mount a really, really strong tank and still do very good damage, but when it does that it'll have at most a scrambler. Not really that hard a target to wear down. If it actually tries to dictate range, then its tank gets progressively weaker... I don't think fitting a MWD on a Drake is realistic, too massive, not enough mids if you want to put up a shield tank, it won't give you enough speed to get into range quickly enough and by the time you do your cap will be dead, and it's a fitting nightmare. I am pretty sure 7x HAM II, an Injector, and a 10mn MWD II isn't going to fit without some serious low slot gimpage. You'll have to just depend on javelins or use heavy launchers on it.. I do think HAM range needs increased a tad. Messing with the resistance bonus would be retarded, imo.. I don't see any reason to swap it with a weaker bonus.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.02 21:48:00 - [499] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 02/11/2006 13:43:36 Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal. And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period. With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless. Take a look: Short-Range Long-Range Notes: that Ferox in the graph has 7 turrets, the Brutix can't really fit 250mm IIs, and its also missing a plate in an Ion II setup, when Harbi and Hurri have to drop plate only to fit neutron-equiv. model it using Phased Plasma M range. Despite having less total damage than EMP M, Phased Plasma M does more damage to shields and Armor than EMP.
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.02 22:54:00 - [500] Originally by: keepiru Now, on with the graphs! Current Situation: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^ those screens are incorrect hurricane isnt using their drones. but harbringer is using them. If you add drones to hurricane they have a lot more high dps It's great being Amarr, ain't it?

Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.02 23:42:00 - [501] Edited by: Nyxus on 02/11/2006 23:43:37 Originally by: keepiru Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal. And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period. With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless. Take a look: Short-Range Long-Range So let us see if I have this straight- Hurricane pros: Better close and long range DPS More speed More CPU after fitted weapons More Grid after fitted weapons Lower Sig Better Tank due to non-cap using weapons Better sensor strength Less mass Better Agility Better weapon damage types Ability to change damage types[] Harbinger Pros: []50 more dps between 7km & 15.5km Have I missed anything here? Does this look remotely balanced? Is it any wonder I am training up projectiles as we speak? Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.03 00:22:00 - [502] Originally by: Nyxus Hurricane pros: Better close and long range DPS (with t2 ammos, and t2 is almost needed in pvp, expecially for long range, is not the case) More speed More CPU after fitted weapons(yup) More Grid after fitted weapons (nope, with similar weapons and good skills harbringer have actually a bit more pg) Lower Sig Better Tank due to non-cap using weapons (tank is tank, and harbringer have a better base tankage, for cap it depends, with harbringer using nos and hurr using HAM probably it will have also a cap advantage) Better sensor strength Less mass (yup) Better Agility (yup) Better weapon damage types (only short range and at the cost of dps) Ability to change damage types (is the same as above) Harbinger Pros: 50 more dps between 7km & 15.5km (i'd say more dps between 5 and 60km and when fitting an HAM instead of a nos or dps is always better for the har) Have I missed anything here? Does this look remotely balanced? Is it any wonder I am training up projectiles as we speak? Nyxus yup fixed my advice is to train for hybrids... they outperform both lasers and proj... hybrids need just 1 bonus to get a veeery good effectiveness while lasers need cap usage and rof and proj need dmg and rof
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 00:30:00 - [503] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/11/2006 00:37:07 Edited by: Goumindong on 03/11/2006 00:36:29 No, the Hurricane really does have more grid after fitting similar weapons. The Harbinger has to fit lower teir weapons to have more grid than the Hurricane. The best case analysis, with the Harbinger fitting FMP's and the Hurricane fitting 220's the at t1, the Hurricane has 1 more PG with max skills[more with less than max skills] with Tech II versions of the similar weapons the Hurricane is 13.4 powergrid ahead of the Harbinger at max skills. The more skills, the closer this number gets. In order for the Hurricane to have less powergrid left over after fitting weapons, the Hurricane has to fit bigger weapons [425's vs FMPs] than the Harbinger. Edit: Damage types. Phased Plasma M does 17.5% more damage to armor before weapon DPS modifications and before ship bonuses than Multifrequency M crystals. Multifrequency does more against shields[about 40%]. With a damage bonus [say, 25% damage] the phased plasma gains the penalty back to 10%[so take weapon DPS multiplier and then multiply by .9 to get damage relative to a laser with MF on shields] and the bonus to armor goes up to about 50%. Its worse against shields for T2, but invariably better against armor, and armor tanks are the more prevelent tanks. Saying that projetiles dont get better damage types in the current situation is just plain false. They even do at t2 ammo. Not nearly as strong against shields [which wont matter much because of the ease of fitting a 20-25% EMP shield boost rig vs a 20-25% armor boost to explosive] The better weapon damage types are not "at the cost of DPS" They increase real DPS by significant margians.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 00:41:00 - [504] Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 00:47:28 Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 00:41:25 Originally by: Sniser Originally by: keepiru Now, on with the graphs! Current Situation: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m Realistic Boosts: Damage @ Range Cumulative Damage @ 2500m Cumulative Damage @ 5000m I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^ those screens are incorrect hurricane isnt using their drones. but harbringer is using them. If you add drones to hurricane they have a lot more high dps They're all using drones, spreadsheet just runs out of space. Originally by: Ath Amon my advice is to train for hybrids... they outperform both lasers and proj... hybrids need just 1 bonus to get a veeery good effectiveness while lasers need cap usage and rof and proj need dmg and rof Both Gallente BCs are total suck compare to the Harbi, Hurri and Drake. The Brutix with its tank bonus could compete with them even though it has 1 less low to tank with, but only if it could fit compartable setups with Ion IIs that the Harbi does with FMP II and the Hurricane with 220mm IIs - which is to say, Guns, MWD, Injector, MAR II, 1600 tungsten. Right now its short a 1600 Tungsten, which means it has half the HP = goes pop every single time. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.03 00:56:00 - [505] mmm are you sure about pg? considering max skills and the 100 base pg bonus (more with skills) i got harb with a few more pg... maybe messed up with ships or gun stats... for damage it really depends... imo explo is not bad for small ships, expecially, as you said most ships armor tank... but with the ship getting bigger, with better tanks and eventual res bonuses it mostly lose that advantage. for example for BS, expecially with new ones, i think EW and explo are quite equal in the end, even if again it depends mostly by tank fitted. then proj have the ability to change damage type, for sure this is an advantage over lasers, but it can be done only in short range and imply a loss in dps now, i'm not saying that lasers have no dmg type problems, but i consider it a problem mostly against hybrids than against proj. proj have a bit more versatility but in the end, due to the low base dps they are in a similar situation, forced to use only explo/kin in long range and forced to gimp more their base dps in short range
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.03 01:07:00 - [506] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Ath Amon my advice is to train for hybrids... they outperform both lasers and proj... hybrids need just 1 bonus to get a veeery good effectiveness while lasers need cap usage and rof and proj need dmg and rof Both Gallente BCs are total suck compare to the Harbi, Hurri and Drake. The Brutix with its tank bonus could compete with them even though it has 1 less low to tank with, but only if it could fit compartable setups with Ion IIs that the Harbi does with FMP II and the Hurricane with 220mm IIs - which is to say, Guns, MWD, Injector, MAR II, 1600 tungsten. Right now its short a 1600 Tungsten, which means it has half the HP = goes pop every single time. the bcs situation is a quite peculiar one, you have to consider that brutix is the dps dealer but (luckilly) it is tier 1, so it have less slots. amarr and minnies get their damage dealer at tier 2 so they have more dps to tank... the actual situation of hybrid weapons imo is pictured better by tier3 bs... due to their good base damage, good tracking and range (for rails) and decent tracking (and for bigger ships even range) for blasters, hybrids can perform very well with just 1 dmg bonus or even whitout any bonus boosting them. the example as said are the rokh wich will have huge tanking and range whitout needing "major" turret bonus to work well. tank + range bonus will make a proj ship too low in dps comparment to be effective and a laser one can run in some cap problems, even if probably will be more effective than the proj the hype is considered a bad ship... but mostly due pg... note that the very low pg is the only way to balance that ship atm... with more pg it will have an overkill dps and good tank/utility... again because hybrids just need 1 dmg bonus to reach awesome dps and the second bonus can be used for tankage or other usefull things
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 01:53:00 - [507] Originally by: Ath Amon mmm are you sure about pg? considering max skills and the 100 base pg bonus (more with skills) i got harb with a few more pg... maybe messed up with ships or gun stats... for damage it really depends... imo explo is not bad for small ships, expecially, as you said most ships armor tank... but with the ship getting bigger, with better tanks and eventual res bonuses it mostly lose that advantage. for example for BS, expecially with new ones, i think EW and explo are quite equal in the end, even if again it depends mostly by tank fitted. then proj have the ability to change damage type, for sure this is an advantage over lasers, but it can be done only in short range and imply a loss in dps now, i'm not saying that lasers have no dmg type problems, but i consider it a problem mostly against hybrids than against proj. proj have a bit more versatility but in the end, due to the low base dps they are in a similar situation, forced to use only explo/kin in long range and forced to gimp more their base dps in short range Base powergrid for a Focued Medium Pulse Laser is 120 [132 tech 2] Base Powergrid for a 220 Autocannon I is 100 [110 tech 2] Difference between 7 guns at max skills is 126[138.6 tech 2] Difference between Harbinger PG[1875] and Hurricane PG[1750] at max skills is 125. So the difference at max skills between 220's and FMPs is 1 PG in favor of the Hurricane at max skills[and loads of CPU] and 13.6 PG when using tech 2 guns at max skills. The worse your skills, the better this comparison gets in favor of the Hurricane. So yes, I am absolutly sure.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 02:56:00 - [508] Ok, so... can we agree that the Harbinger is subtly worse than the hurricane in nearly every respect, at once? And especially in the 2 things which the boring, "guns & armor" amarr are supposed to be good at, which is, surprise, guns (hurricane does more damage) and armor-tanking (hurricane has the same slots and more cap for it)? And start discussing how we go about making the Harbinger better in at least 1 department, without nerfing the Hurricane which is, quite frankly, exactly what a damage-oriented tier-2 BC should be like? Thnx ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 03:03:00 - [509] Originally by: keepiru Ok, so... can we agree that the Harbinger is subtly worse than the hurricane in nearly every respect, at once? And especially in the 2 things which the boring, "guns & armor" amarr are supposed to be good at, which is, surprise, guns (hurricane does more damage) and armor-tanking (hurricane has the same slots and more cap for it)? And start discussing how we go about making the Harbinger better in at least 1 department, without nerfing the Hurricane which is, quite frankly, exactly what a damage-oriented tier-2 BC should be like? Thnx Yes, we can. So lets do that. I like the 7/4/7 slot lay out with minor stat adjustment better than the 8 gun layout, but the 8 gun layout +CPU/PG to fit em all is pretty simple in its brutish amarri elegence. Also, we wouldnt have that funky lopsided turret
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.03 05:02:00 - [510] Originally by: Goumindong Base powergrid for a Focued Medium Pulse Laser is 120 [132 tech 2] Base Powergrid for a 220 Autocannon I is 100 [110 tech 2] Difference between 7 guns at max skills is 126[138.6 tech 2] Difference between Harbinger PG[1875] and Hurricane PG[1750] at max skills is 125. So the difference at max skills between 220's and FMPs is 1 PG in favor of the Hurricane at max skills[and loads of CPU] and 13.6 PG when using tech 2 guns at max skills. The worse your skills, the better this comparison gets in favor of the Hurricane. So yes, I am absolutly sure. 1 pg is not that much... also here you are comparing a fitting with 7 guns with dps with hurricane using 7 guns and 1 HAM looking here you have a picture where the lasers have same dps at close range and better at longer using 7 guns + drones vs 7 guns + 1 ham + drones Damage @ Range again to me it seem quite balanced, we have also to consider that here the fitting difference is not 1 pg but over 100pg for the harbringer... removing the 8th high slot and putting it in the low imo it will overpower the ship... not only it will still do equal or more damage with also a better range but it will give one more slot to put in another dmg or tank mod, making the difference between the 2 ships more marked. as said looking at graph... even ones you posted it seem to me the damage is similar at close and better for har at range... looking at fitting and base tank the harbringer should outtank the hurr... so again as i see the harb beat the hurr at tanking (as amarr should do) and at range (again as amarr should generally do), hurr beat it for speed and both ships have similar best dps in similar conditions... if the 8th harb slot will be moved down then the ship imo should get penalized in the drone compartement or the difference in dps + tankage + range of the 2 ships will be to high to make the hurr worthwile

Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.03 06:02:00 - [511] Edited by: Nyxus on 03/11/2006 06:02:47 Originally by: Ath Amon Keepiru's graph 67796 Wait.....isn't that Keepiru's graph of the Harbinger with 8 turrets? Ath are you saying that the Harbinger is fine as it is, or that it needs 8 turrets to be balanced? I can't tell. Also: the Hurricane has more grid left over when fitting comparable weapons. It will be able to fit a better tank becuase of this. It also has a lot more cap than a Harb when firing weapons. A LOT LOT LOT more if the Harb is using HP II. Hurricane WILL outtank the Harb. Period. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 07:37:00 - [512] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/11/2006 07:41:56 Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: Goumindong Base powergrid for a Focued Medium Pulse Laser is 120 [132 tech 2] Base Powergrid for a 220 Autocannon I is 100 [110 tech 2] Difference between 7 guns at max skills is 126[138.6 tech 2] Difference between Harbinger PG[1875] and Hurricane PG[1750] at max skills is 125. So the difference at max skills between 220's and FMPs is 1 PG in favor of the Hurricane at max skills[and loads of CPU] and 13.6 PG when using tech 2 guns at max skills. The worse your skills, the better this comparison gets in favor of the Hurricane. So yes, I am absolutly sure. 1 pg is not that much... also here you are comparing a fitting with 7 guns with dps with hurricane using 7 guns and 1 HAM looking here you have a picture where the lasers have same dps at close range and better at longer using 7 guns + drones vs 7 guns + 1 ham + drones Damage @ Range again to me it seem quite balanced, we have also to consider that here the fitting difference is not 1 pg but over 100pg for the harbringer... removing the 8th high slot and putting it in the low imo it will overpower the ship... not only it will still do equal or more damage with also a better range but it will give one more slot to put in another dmg or tank mod, making the difference between the 2 ships more marked. as said looking at graph... even ones you posted it seem to me the damage is similar at close and better for har at range... looking at fitting and base tank the harbringer should outtank the hurr... so again as i see the harb beat the hurr at tanking (as amarr should do) and at range (again as amarr should generally do), hurr beat it for speed and both ships have similar best dps in similar conditions... if the 8th harb slot will be moved down then the ship imo should get penalized in the drone compartement or the difference in dps + tankage + range of the 2 ships will be to high to make the hurr worthwile 1. I already accounted for the Harbingers extra Powergrid when comparing the Powergrid usage of weapons. 2. The Harbinger does not beat the Hurricane when tanking, this is because the Harbinger uses cap on its guns. A whole bunch of cap, while the hurricane does not. This is important to figure into your calculations. Especialy when 1000 armor really isnt all that much. It is 20% of the base values, but much less if each decides to stick on a plate. And what happens if you stick on a plate? Well, the capacitor becomes a much more important issue, becuse you have more rep cycles to accomidate. 3. The graphs show the Harbinger being better than the Hurricane when it has 8 guns and the powergrid to fit 8 heavy pulses. At the moment it has the PG to do so, or fit 7 heavy pulses, but it looses a huge amount of tank to do so, its next step down, is still behind the hurricane in damage.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.03 08:30:00 - [513] Originally by: Goumindong 1. I already accounted for the Harbingers extra Powergrid when comparing the Powergrid usage of weapons. nope you are calculating the pg on 7 weapons for both ships, but then you discuss the dps with the hurr using 8 weapons... an option of the har is actually to leave 8th slot empty (is also the reason you are proposing to move the slot :P) in this situation it will gain around 100pg over a ham hurricane, and the dps is still balanced... i will prefer to fit a nos (same for the hur) but is still an option... Originally by: Goumindong 2. The Harbinger does not beat the Hurricane when tanking, this is because the Harbinger uses cap on its guns. A whole bunch of cap, while the hurricane does not. This is important to figure into your calculations. Especialy when 1000 armor really isnt all that much. It is 20% of the base values, but much less if each decides to stick on a plate. And what happens if you stick on a plate? Well, the capacitor becomes a much more important issue, becuse you have more rep cycles to accomidate. you have cap reduction that reduce cap usage, and also if you with a nos and the hur will fit an ham you will probably end up with a overall cap usage and, as you say, tanking for plates i disagree, i see plates mostly as a buffer so is not that you need more cycles/more energy... the cap usage is the same is just that you are living more due to better hps. so basically you sacrifice some active tankage for passive one. Originally by: Goumindong 3. The graphs show the Harbinger being better than the Hurricane when it has 8 guns and the powergrid to fit 8 heavy pulses. At the moment it has the PG to do so, or fit 7 heavy pulses, but it looses a huge amount of tank to do so, its next step down, is still behind the hurricane in damage. mmmmm it was a bit different than mine here why also i'm quite curious to see the graph with new t2 ammos... /crossfinger for sisi
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 08:46:00 - [514] Ath, i dont believe you actualy have any clue about what you are talking about. 1. The damage bonus from a missile launcher is negligable, because its is a single launcher and there is no bonus on the ship. 2. The graph you are citing as showing the harbinger as so much better shows the harbinger using 8 guns versus the Hurricanes 7 guns/launcher. There is no equivelency between an extra gun and a missile launcher. 3. Missile launchers and AC's do not use any cap at all, so no, between the guns and the missile launcher the hurricane will not be anywhere near the cap use of the Harbinger even with the cap use bonus for lasers. The cap use bonus for the Harbinger would have to be 18%/level in order to make even the cap use of the Hurricane and the Harbinger. Not even with a medium NOS [5 cap/second base] You would have to fit two NOS's in order to eat into the cap use of your guns at max skills, and then you arent doing nearly as much damage as the Hurricane anyway 4. Plates prolong death. That is the point of plates. However, the longer before you explode, the longer you have to cycle your repairer. This benefits the Hurricane because the Hurricane uses so much less cap than the Harbinger. If a Plate gets you 3 cycles worth of staying alive then the Harbinger is in absolute terms, worse at tanking than the Hurricane, as it will have less effective HP while still firing its guns. If the plate doesnt get you three cycles[about 40 seconds], then having it wasnt worth much anyway now was it[as you lasted, at most, about 1 minute 10 seconds]? Either way the Hurricane tanks better. 5. When i discuss the powergrid usage of both ships, I am doing so because the Hurricane does as much damage as the Harbinger with 7 guns and no launcher, and with equal fittings has more powergrid. Everything else is bonus. I dont compare with 8 guns, because i dont expect a Hurricane to fit 8 weapons, nor do I expect for them to need to, nor do I expect such a fitting to make much of a difference. After you fit your guns, the Harbinger has more PG left to fit what it wants. If you fit a NOS[175 PG]like you suggest and the Hurricane fits a HAM[100 PG or so] then the Hurricane adds another 75 relative PG to the numbers above. And the Hurricane STILL uses less cap, heck, it uses less cap if you NOS it and use that cap to power your guns!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.03 10:34:00 - [515] I must say that I've always found those graphs misleading when drones are involved. Essentially, the heavier the drone the less useful it is at range. Now, the problem is that the graphs give the distinct appearance that Ogres are useful and does damage past 20km - while they theoretically do damage out there, they aren't useful at all. At that range they are extremely vulnerable and they make it so that the drone ship must sacrifice all the drones if it needs flee the combat. Essentially, it's the same as back in the days when missiles suffered greatly from long time-to-damage, with the important difference that drones are even slower. Well, the missile ships didn't lose their missile launchers if they fled, but... If you wish to make "realistic" graphs, cut heavy drone damage at 20km, medium drones at 30km and light drones at 40km. Sentry drones really are useless in a PvP combat situation, since they don't orbit your ship (they really should orbit the host ship) but remains stationary where launched. This is in situations where you aren't very certain to win, of course, but in situations where you are 100% certain to win graphs really do not tell anything at all - except maybe how many seconds the target has to get to gate/station. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 10:43:00 - [516] Originally by: Ithildin I must say that I've always found those graphs misleading when drones are involved. Essentially, the heavier the drone the less useful it is at range. I agree, and that's why I tend to remove drones from long-range weapon dps graphs. However, when comparing the myrmidon to other BCs fitted for short range, its a necessity, for obvious reasons. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.03 10:46:00 - [517] 1) then compare the graph with both ships using 7 guns (as i made at the beginning) you have the "base dps" of the 2 ships with similar fitting requirements (1pg difference at highest skill) and the option for hurricane to fit an HAM or a NOS while the har have to fit a nos or leave it empty. (about that i think there should be a bit more utility option for high slots but that's another story) this way as said you get the basic picture of both ships with the versatility difference 2) my fault tought it was a normal graph + damage mods and is why it was a bit different than my basic graph 3) ok it doesn't use cap, but also with lasers you have a range bonus, no ammo usage and around 20-30% more base dps... these are the pros and cons of this weapon type and i think is generally quite balanced compared to proj. (hybrid and missiles imo are another history) we can also discuss for midrange, but this is mostly a BS issue as the range for mids is too low to be really considered midrange. for medium and quite a slow ship class as said in the other post imo range is a good bonus as it doesn't permit to get outranged with close range weapons, not to say that with such longer range you can also score some hits before the opponent. 4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary also i prefer to keep the distinction between cap and tank, tank is the ability to absorb or sustain damage, yes it need cap to work but is the same for everything ecm, ab, scram and so on. and the tank between the 2 ships is veeery similar with the main difference, as said, of +20% base armor for the harb
Swamp Ziro EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.03 11:02:00 - [518] Personally, I wouldn't mind buffing the harbringer a bit, if only just to please the Amarrians. What they ask seems reasonable, unlike myrmidon buffs for example (:D), so why not.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 11:04:00 - [519] Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 11:04:58 Originally by: Ath Amon with lasers you have a range bonus Meaningless because the Hurricane dctates range. The Harbinger is a very good BC, the proble is that its outclassed by the Hurricane in everything, and that's what we're discussing. Originally by: Ath Amon around 20-30% more base dps Meaningless because the Harbinger only out-damages the Hurricane when the Harbi is using top-tier weapons and the Hurricane uses middle-tier. Originally by: Ath Amon 4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary Try more like 10 cap/second with FMP II, much worse with any other gun - I think we can all agree quad light beams are a non-issue here And the Hurricane has like 50% more cargo bay. Base armor is pointless if you don't have the cap to run your guns & reppers, with the fight lenghts in kali. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.03 12:04:00 - [520] Edited by: Sniser on 03/11/2006 12:16:07 stuff It's great being Amarr, ain't it?

Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.03 12:07:00 - [521] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 11:04:58 Originally by: Ath Amon with lasers you have a range bonus Meaningless because the Hurricane dctates range. The Harbinger is a very good BC, the proble is that its outclassed by the Hurricane in everything, and that's what we're discussing. is not meaningless, you will not fight only hurricanes, hurricane is just one of the many ships and not one of the best for the harbringer, hurricane can't dictate range too against most cruisers and in that situation a lower weapon range can be a problem. you say that the hurricane outperform the harbringer for everything, in my opinion is not the case Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Ath Amon around 20-30% more base dps Meaningless because the Harbinger only out-damages the Hurricane when the Harbi is using top-tier weapons and the Hurricane uses middle-tier. is not meaningless as is the way weapons where developed and balanced... different weapons with different bonuses and different stats... if you think that lasers are underpowered then it's another discussion and a "primary" problem, while the comparsion between these ships is less relevant Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Ath Amon 4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary Try more like 10 cap/second with FMP II, much worse with any other gun - I think we can all agree quad light beams are a non-issue here And the Hurricane has like 50% more cargo bay. Base armor is pointless if you don't have the cap to run your guns & reppers, with the fight lenghts in kali. as said cap is particular area of a ship, you can say that amarr are weak on cap, but when you say that amarr are weak on tankage because of cap is like to say that amarr are weak on ecm, offence and so on because of cap. it can seem a marginal distinction but is an important one as it focus an area where you have a problem. this makes easier to analyze the problem itself and to better compare balance and eventual solutions whitout unbalance other areas.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 12:21:00 - [522] Originally by: Sniser then why i having too different numbers? True Dmg hurri out dps everyone ;) Looks I forgot them then Originally by: Ath Amon is not meaningless, you will not fight only hurricanes, hurricane is just one of the many ships and not one of the best for the harbringer, hurricane can't dictate range too against most cruisers and in that situation a lower weapon range can be a problem. you say that the hurricane outperform the harbringer for everything, in my opinion is not the case Yes, they wont only fighjt hurricanes, that's all fine and dandy BUT. Tell me one reason to fly the Harbinger over the Hurricane. You say you disagree, so show me why. There isn't one. I'm not asking to make the Harbinger UBER. I just want it to be better at one thing that's actually valuable in the real world - more damage outside web ange with short-range guns it meaningless. Keep in mind, I'm horizontally specced, I can fly all BCs basically equally well... I would like one reason to actually use my laser spec, because right now there wont be, apart from NPCing Originally by: Ath Amon is not meaningless as is the way weapons where developed and balanced... different weapons with different bonuses and different stats... if you think that lasers are underpowered then it's another discussion and a "primary" problem, while the comparsion between these ships is less relevant Its meanignless because we're not talking about the weapons, we're talking about the ship. Originally by: Ath Amon as said cap is particular area of a ship, you can say that amarr are weak on cap, but when you say that amarr are weak on tankage because of cap is like to say that amarr are weak on ecm, offence and so on because of cap. it can seem a marginal distinction but is an important one as it focus an area where you have a problem. this makes easier to analyze the problem itself and to better compare balance and eventual solutions whitout unbalance other areas. I dont agree with you. An armor tank is 1/3 resist, 1/3 hp and 1/3 THE FRAGGIN CAP TO RUN IT has heart attack comes back from dead >.> <.< So yeah. xtra Armor on Harbinger = fragging useless, thanks to oh gee amarr are supposed to havbe better cap but they dont. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:30:00 - [523] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Personally, I wouldn't mind buffing the harbringer a bit, if only just to please the Amarrians. What they ask seems reasonable, unlike myrmidon buffs for example (:D), so why not. Im not sure why myrmidon buffs isnt reasonable. I assume its because of the Brutix already having so high damage? Ganking battlecruisers Just some graph I made. Sorry for not using t2 missiles for the Drake, it didnt work for some reason. But with Rage missiles, the dps is 577. Not sure about Fury. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:42:00 - [524] Hmm. T2 missiles work for me, at least in DPS @ range graphs. Just not in Cumulative Damage / Time graphs. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:11:00 - [525] Originally by: keepiru Hmm. T2 missiles work for me, at least in DPS @ range graphs. Just not in Cumulative Damage / Time graphs. Ill check it out.. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:04:00 - [526] Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:19:00 - [527] Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf? f'in, sweet! bigger tank than a brutix now! ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:22:00 - [528] Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf? Any changes to the Harbinger?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:30:00 - [529] Originally by: Goumindong Any changes to the Harbinger? Not that I can see. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:33:00 - [530] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Goumindong Any changes to the Harbinger? Not that I can see. :(

Varshyll	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:59:00 - [531] Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf? http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/0610/bc3.png
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 20:01:00 - [532] So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Nonoffensive Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.03 20:53:00 - [533] Originally by: keepiru So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay Is it just me, or is it the only T2 BC with only 17 fitting slots now?
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.03 21:07:00 - [534] Originally by: Nonoffensive Originally by: keepiru So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay Is it just me, or is it the only T2 BC with only 17 fitting slots now? It is a droneship, so it is normal that it gets less slots. Now, as Keepiru said, give me a proper dronebay and I will be perfectly happy
Nonoffensive Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.03 21:13:00 - [535] Originally by: Kalhystia Originally by: Nonoffensive Originally by: keepiru So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay Is it just me, or is it the only T2 BC with only 17 fitting slots now? It is a droneship, so it is normal that it gets less slots. Now, as Keepiru said, give me a proper dronebay and I will be perfectly happy Strange that they didn't increase the drone bay while they were fiddling with the slots, if that was their intent.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 22:28:00 - [536] Still feels a little unfinished tbh, but its a step in the right direction, the "8 highs on everything" thing was getting a little dull. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2006.11.03 22:49:00 - [537] Are the new BCs supposed to use warfare link modules at all?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.03 22:59:00 - [538] Yup. Bonus is just not in description yet. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Caldorous Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.03 23:57:00 - [539] Originally by: Nonoffensive Originally by: Kalhystia Originally by: Nonoffensive Originally by: keepiru So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay Is it just me, or is it the only T2 BC with only 17 fitting slots now? It is a droneship, so it is normal that it gets less slots. Now, as Keepiru said, give me a proper dronebay and I will be perfectly happy Strange that they didn't increase the drone bay while they were fiddling with the slots, if that was their intent. i don't know why but i fear a nerfage of the myrmidon just the release day... -----------------------------
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.04 00:18:00 - [540] nerf? nerf what? Is there something THAT good to nerf on that ship? layout is ok, dronebay is small, bonus are ok but not overpowered, damage output isn't that great...

James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2006.11.04 00:33:00 - [541] So we got 75mw for a entire additional gun....lol. Everyone that has been posting here has been asking for the DRONE BAY to be fixed, the guns are a problem on this ship (no bonus so they don't put out the DPS nessasary to compete), and the guns always figured into the damage equations are only good at 5km or less. This ship will only be able to compete with the other tier 2 BC if the drone bay is increased to 250m3. And every time someone makes a suggestion on DPS figures about this ship, it is setup with a Glass Jaw. The hurricane, Drake can tank and gank. The Harbringer needs more Powergrid and lots more cap, and the Myrmidon needs its drone bay unnerfed. And if the Brutix is the Gallente GANK BC it needs another 500mw to the grid to that it can fit a 1600mm plate like the other Tier 2 BC when it fits Ion blaster 2's.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 00:42:00 - [542] Well, its more grid than the Brutix has, and the Brutix is a gunship with a DMG bonus and 7 turrets ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Sev Renard Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.11.04 01:42:00 - [543] Personally, I think the 75mw increase was more tanking related than anything. Before, I had some trouble with dual reps and some decent sized guns, always coming up a few grid short, but this gives me just enough for dualreps... Oh, just in case nobody else has posted this, a nice big dronebay would be a plus. _________________________________________ I wonder which will come first, my portrait, or a sig hijack...
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 01:45:00 - [544] They're going to have to drop a few guns if they give it 5 heavies - this is the situation now: Graphage ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.04 01:46:00 - [545] Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf? DAM, NO! now the other bcs will be reduced to 17 slots!!!!!! Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 01:49:00 - [546] Doubt it. Drone ships often have less slots, to account for all the damage from fitting-less weapons. points @ dominix ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.04 02:00:00 - [547] Originally by: keepiru Doubt it. Drone ships often have less slots, to account for all the damage from fitting-less weapons. points @ dominix Thank the lord! Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.04 02:03:00 - [548] Edited by: Kalhystia on 04/11/2006 02:03:29 Originally by: keepiru They're going to have to drop a few guns if they give it 5 heavies - this is the situation now: Graphage I understand that T2 ammo needs to be put into your graph DPS wise but... who is going to use void ammo with 50% tracking nerf (without even counting the falloff nerf... yay)
Katabrok First Caldari Asguard Security Service	Posted - 2006.11.04 02:37:00 - [549] Originally by: keepiru Well, its more grid than the Brutix has, and the Brutix is a gunship with a DMG bonus and 7 turrets I think that its a good sign that the brutix need some more pg, dont you think? Katabrok, the space barbarian. I want the The Correct DreadÖ!!!!
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 02:50:00 - [550] Originally by: Katabrok First I think that its a good sign that the brutix need some more pg, dont you think? Yes ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!

Dano Sarum Giants in the Playground Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.04 06:45:00 - [551] If the Myrmidion just got another gun and the grid to use it, give the Amarrians their 8th turret on the ship too. Don't give us gimped models, adding another HIGHER dps turret and giving them fitting to use it on the gallente is pretty lame if Amarr dont get their 8th turret too. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.04 07:09:00 - [552] So I tested the new designed Myrmidon. I could put together a pretty decent Ion gank setup w/ t2 ions, and 4 heavies. If they went after the drones first, I simply did too much damage to them before they could get all the drones to recover. Now, this was 1v1. With multiple targets the situation goes south rather quickly as they can simply kill a gank Myr too quickly since it has almost no tank. The longer the fights, the worse the Myr does due to poor cap, drone destruction and weak tanking ability. Because I said so...
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.04 09:09:00 - [553] actually give the Mym 175 drone bay, and a change the drone bonus to mediums and lights only. Then give it it special bonus, 25% damage reduction in heavy done damage. Mym is fixed
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.04 10:18:00 - [554] Originally by: keepiru They're going to have to drop a few guns if they give it 5 heavies - this is the situation now: Graphage Given that graph, it doesn't look like it. That the Myrmidon needed a sixth turret is quite obvious a step in the wrong direction, however. In either case, what stands out in that graphage are the yellow and blue lines. They highlight two things very well: * Myrmidon relegated to medium drones DO NOT WORK AND CAN NOT COMPETE. * Brutix wtf, mate? Oh, and the missing dull-grey line: the Ferox is rather laughable. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 11:07:00 - [555] Originally by: Ithildin That the Myrmidon needed a sixth turret is quite obvious a step in the wrong direction, however. As a vocal proponent of the 6th turret mount, I have to say this is now painfully apparent - its becoming less and less of a drone ship. 4 turrets +275m3, nerf the grid so you can only fit electrons like the ishtar? Originally by: Ithildin In either case, what stands out in that graphage are the yellow and blue lines. They highlight two things very well: * Myrmidon relegated to medium drones DO NOT WORK AND CAN NOT COMPETE. That was never in any doubt, I don't think. Originally by: Ithildin * Brutix wtf, mate? Its worse than it looks, it needs 3 grid rigs to fit electrons and a 1600mm... Originally by: Ithildin Oh, and the missing dull-grey line: the Ferox is rather laughable. Well, if you give it 7 turrets it actually does decent damage @ like 45km+ - would work pretty nice for certain gang support situations I guess. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.04 12:23:00 - [556] Meh. The new slot layout is better than the old, but still... we wanted less guns and more drone bay, and got exactly the opposite. This should be a drone ship, not some half-assed drone/blaster combo that has trouble in both areas. Keep the current slot layout, drop two turrets, increase drone bay to 200-250m3. Done.
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.04 13:19:00 - [557] I've been toying with the myrmidon, and the biggest fault it has in my eyes is that it lacks multi waves of drones, during long fights they get picked off and it dies horribly every time. (well, more often than not at least) My personal pick as a "fix" (ie, making it the ship I want) is: change drone bonus to a 20% per level increase in HP and damage for light and medium drones, and boosting the drone bay to at least 150m3 This means it is using "cruiser drones", just more effectively than ships like the vexor and arbitrator. In Corporate Caldari, taxes pay YOU.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.04 14:37:00 - [558] Originally by: Alexi Borizkova I've been toying with the myrmidon, and the biggest fault it has in my eyes is that it lacks multi waves of drones, during long fights they get picked off and it dies horribly every time. (well, more often than not at least) My personal pick as a "fix" (ie, making it the ship I want) is: change drone bonus to a 20% per level increase in HP and damage for light and medium drones, and boosting the drone bay to at least 150m3 This means it is using "cruiser drones", just more effectively than ships like the vexor and arbitrator. The Myrmidon will not be able to compete without a full bay of heavy drones with damage aplied. The smaller drones do laughable damage which stem only from their overall backup functionality. It is plain to see that heavy drones function more or less exactly like a cruiser sized drone, it hits cruisers for cruiser grade damage with cruiser grade tracking and cruiser grade speed. So, a few hot-fixes that are needed on BCs: * Ferox, +2 turret hardpoints, +300MW * Brutix, +250MW, +25TF * Myrmidon, -1 turret hardpoint, +200m¦ drone bay Something to debate is how well the Prophecy function, as well. I get the feeling the Prophecy might need another hardpoint in light of recent additions. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Alpine 69 Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:02:00 - [559] myrmidon isnt that bad imo, its just meant to fight smaller ships, and that thing is scary when you are in a cruiser....... but yes give it another 100m3 drone bay and lose a gun hardpoint or 2 eeeeeeek my sig got nerfed again :(
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:40:00 - [560] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2006 15:40:17 Originally by: Alpine 69 myrmidon isnt that bad imo, its just meant to fight smaller ships, and that thing is scary when you are in a cruiser....... Yeah. Problem is, the other bcs are scary to bigger ships, also. The Myrmidon still needs help (I'd advocate losing 1-2 turrets and boosting drone bay, like most people here).

Ihar Enda Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:48:00 - [561] Yeah, Myrmidon definitely needs a larger drone bay, 150m3 AT LEAST. And while you're at it, don't nerf null
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:59:00 - [562] Edited by: keepiru on 04/11/2006 16:00:56 Originally by: Ithildin * Ferox, +2 turret hardpoints, +300MW Maybe - a few tf, and remove 2 launcher hardpoints. Originally by: Ithildin * Brutix, +250MW, +25TF Sounds about right. Originally by: Ithildin * Myrmidon, -1 turret hardpoint, +200m¦ drone bay I'd go so far as to say -2. And possibly shave a little grid off as well - don't want to see this thing fitting 6x Med Nos II, regardless of the low range they have. Originally by: Ithildin Something to debate is how well the Prophecy function, as well. I get the feeling the Prophecy might need another hardpoint in light of recent additions. I dunno. It still tanks really hard with that bonus and a 1600 plate. Makes a durable and cheap gang mod platform that's still more than able to defend itself in a gang. Holds up under fire much better than a harbinger, and because its tier-1 people are less likely to shoot at it, and will probably focus on the flashy and bangy tier-2s zooming around on MWD. Maybe a little more cap to allay the fact it only has 3 mids, but the Harbinger is the solo ship, so possibly that's not needed. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 16:17:00 - [563] Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you: The MyrmAbomination. The most effective Myrmidon NPC setup I've come up with 6x Heavy Beam II 2x Large F-S9 Shield Extenders, 2x Hardeners, 1x Web 4x Power Diagnostic System II, 1x DC, 1x HS II Change this ship now please... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.04 16:29:00 - [564] Originally by: keepiru Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you: The MyrmAbomination. The most effective Myrmidon NPC setup I've come up with 6x Heavy Beam II 2x Large F-S9 Shield Extenders, 2x Hardeners, 1x Web 4x Power Diagnostic System II, 1x DC, 1x HS II Change this ship now please... Umm...wanna swap that with Harbinger? I can fit projectiles onto it very nicely.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 16:41:00 - [565] If you fit projectiles on a Harbinger a ferox will outdamage you ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.04 17:19:00 - [566] Originally by: keepiru If you fit projectiles on a Harbinger a ferox will outdamage you Whatever, It's not like Harbinger would do insane amounts of damage anyway.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.04 17:21:00 - [567] Originally by: keepiru If you fit projectiles on a Harbinger a ferox will outdamage you I thought that was the plan with kali, to make caldari best and amarr worst. Or more exact, to keep caldari best and hold amarr down, dragging gallente with them and minmatar standing beside, not knowing if to laugh (hurricane) or cry (mealstrom)
JoCool Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.11.04 19:03:00 - [568] Edited by: JoCool on 04/11/2006 19:04:20 The Mael is an excellent ship and the Rokh is simply an outclassing turret sniper to be honest. It should not be that way. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 20:15:00 - [569] Originally by: JoCool Edited by: JoCool on 04/11/2006 19:04:20 The Mael is an excellent ship and the Rokh is simply an outclassing turret sniper to be honest. It should not be that way. 1) why not? 2) wrong thread? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:06:00 - [570] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/11/2006 23:06:52 This guy[post 5] is saying that the 5% ROF on the Harbinger is gone and replaced by 5% damage. I thought that one of the isues was that the Harbinger didnt do enough damage[while being subtly worse], not that it did too much?

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:50:00 - [571] Edited by: keepiru on 04/11/2006 23:50:18 Interesting. Well, if that's the case, its good in the sense that the guns now draw 25% less cap, but bad in the sense that the ship lost 8% of its dps, which now puts it well under the Hurricane... if the Hurricane still has the listed bonuses, that is. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Lady Loom Red Mercury Industries	Posted - 2006.11.05 00:52:00 - [572] Edited by: Lady Loom on 05/11/2006 01:01:09 Originally by: Goumindong This guy[post 5] is saying that the 5% ROF on the Harbinger is gone and replaced by 5% damage. I thought that one of the isues was that the Harbinger didnt do enough damage[while being subtly worse], not that it did too much? I prefer DPS over RoF in order to conserve cap BTW, how does it lose DPS that way? I don't see the difference between hurting 5% more or hurting 5% faster, what changes that makes it lose 8% DPS, total? [power corrupts, absolute power is kind of neat]
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:12:00 - [573] Its confirmed btw. And how? because a 25% reduction in RoF gives a 33.3% increase in DPS. 101.25=12.5 10/0.75=13.3* ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:34:00 - [574] Originally by: keepiru Graphs to come about that... Or not, since I can't seem to upload. Suffice to say, there is only 1 case where the Harbinger outdamages the Hurricane, and that is when the Harb is mounting Top-tier guns (HP II) and the Hurricane is mounting bottom-tier (Dual 180mm II). When that happens the Harbi has a lot of trouble mounting just the guns, mwd, injector and rep. The Hurricane mounts guns, mwd, rep, injector, 1600 plate and nos =/ ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:19:00 - [575] Tux, the damage bonus instead of ROF bonus was supposed to go to the Abaddon [as a compromise for being almost completly useless with lasers] not the Harbinger, you got your threads mixed up.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:31:00 - [576] Well, to be quite honest with you I prefer the damage bonus, the cap draw was an issue, now its not quite as much of an issue. Now it really needs a nice cap boost though, so it can at least tank better than the hurricane. And possibly that utility slot moved to a low. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:41:00 - [577] Edited by: Goumindong on 05/11/2006 02:43:04 Originally by: keepiru Well, to be quite honest with you I prefer the damage bonus, the cap draw was an issue, now its not quite as much of an issue. Now it really needs a nice cap boost though, so it can at least tank better than the hurricane. And possibly that utility slot moved to a low. Its a hollow bonus without the 8th turret though. The Damage bonus instead of ROF that is. I would be Happy with more cap/cpu/pg/and a 7/4/7 configuration with damage insatead of ROF though.
Tonkin Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:58:00 - [578] all i can say is the drake is fantastic its a fantastic boat and it doesnt need any changes to it. for god sake people CALDARI NEEDS A GOOD SHIP i reading people whining about OOO it does too much damage OOO my ship cant take it out so what, jam nos damp etc, do i have to say more, like a vaga it will come in cant hit it with torps does nasty damage, bang a nos on ur ship or cruise missiles, you will see him run like hell. plus our missiles are being nerfed again so calm down deal with the drake, because every ship in eve can go down, depends how you think of your setup or the tactics you use. if you get pawned right away against the drake, you have 3 things to consider. your bad at pvp (IE CRAP) your ship setup up was laughable, or the guy was tacticly more better than you are. ive lost fights against APPARENT weaker ships, comes down to tactics and fittings skills aswell you need to train the right ones. Sig removed, you sig was too ubber to display and ccp had no choice but to nerf it - CCP(NERFBAT)
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.05 03:34:00 - [579] Edited by: Areconus on 05/11/2006 03:35:39 Originally by: keepiru Originally by: keepiru Graphs to come about that... Or not, since I can't seem to upload. Suffice to say, there is only 1 case where the Harbinger outdamages the Hurricane, and that is when the Harb is mounting Top-tier guns (HP II) and the Hurricane is mounting bottom-tier (Dual 180mm II). When that happens the Harbi has a lot of trouble mounting just the guns, mwd, injector and rep. The Hurricane mounts guns, mwd, rep, injector, 1600 plate and nos =/ No, it actually can't fit all of that stuff, just tried it on quickfit...and that was with adv wep upg 5.... i used: 220m ac II med dim nos med electrochem named 10mn mwd med rep II ...not enuf for a 1600 left..... Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 03:55:00 - [580] Read again, twice, the part where I said bottom tier guns (Dual 180mm II). ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!

Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.05 04:04:00 - [581] Edited by: Areconus on 05/11/2006 04:05:37 Originally by: keepiru Read again, twice, the part where I said bottom tier guns (Dual 180mm II). Ah, there we go, i thought i had put in 180's, guess not..and besides that, it was on adv wep upg 4 not 5....so with: 7x dual 180mm II med dim med electro named 10mn mwd med rep II 1600 tungsten adv wep upg 4.... you have 35pg left, enuf for the web scram, and other lows lol edit: oh, and btw, stop being an ass Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 04:24:00 - [582] Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 04:26:25 Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 04:25:39 Sorry Btw, with AWU 5 you should have grid for upgrade to Med Nos II, or (better choice) some proj rigs. Oh and where do I find a quickfit with the Kali ships? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.05 06:41:00 - [583] Edited by: Areconus on 05/11/2006 06:43:29 Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 04:26:25 Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 04:25:39 Sorry Btw, with AWU 5 you should have grid for upgrade to Med Nos II, or (better choice) some proj rigs. Oh and where do I find a quickfit with the Kali ships? Well, theres not a version out with the kali ships yet that i know of, but you can still produce some of the ships, with a bit of crafty work Since the rupture has the same bonuses as the hurricane will, you need to add the rupture to your favorites by searching for it in the equipment box. Then, go to the custom tab and change all of the stats on the rupture to match the hurricane, and then simply name it the hurricane Once you go to select ship, youll see it in a box on the bottom left hand side Also, you can have a lil fun with this feature I made an Estamel's modified raven once........ Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Layla Currie	Posted - 2006.11.05 07:10:00 - [584] Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: keepiru If you fit projectiles on a Harbinger a ferox will outdamage you Whatever, It's not like Harbinger would do insane amounts of damage anyway. Congrats you're really stupid. If you have decent pvp skills, which i doubt cause you're in freelancer alliance you would realize that the harbinger is the best bc out of the pack. With good skills it absolutely whups any of the other bcs, and if you fit projectiles on it you should just never reproduce because you're clearly the weakest link in the human race.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.05 07:46:00 - [585] Originally by: Layla Currie Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: keepiru If you fit projectiles on a Harbinger a ferox will outdamage you Whatever, It's not like Harbinger would do insane amounts of damage anyway. Congrats you're really stupid. If you have decent pvp skills, which i doubt cause you're in freelancer alliance you would realize that the harbinger is the best bc out of the pack. With good skills it absolutely whups any of the other bcs, and if you fit projectiles on it you should just never reproduce because you're clearly the weakest link in the human race. Wait, how does the Harbinger, which is subtly worse in all ways than the Hurricane, "the best bc out of the pack". Wouldnt common logic dictate, that if the Hurricane were subtly better than it in every way, then it would be "the best bc out of the pack". So how is the Harbinger so much better than the Hurricane?
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.05 08:06:00 - [586] Originally by: Layla Currie Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: keepiru If you fit projectiles on a Harbinger a ferox will outdamage you Whatever, It's not like Harbinger would do insane amounts of damage anyway. Congrats you're really stupid. If you have decent pvp skills, which i doubt cause you're in freelancer alliance you would realize that the harbinger is the best bc out of the pack. With good skills it absolutely whups any of the other bcs, and if you fit projectiles on it you should just never reproduce because you're clearly the weakest link in the human race. Well that was an interesting argument and you even went personal in your outburst of hatred towards me and my alliance. Would you perhaps want to share one of your clearly superior fits for Harbinger thus proving me wrong or should I just ignore you?
Soratah Amarr Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.05 09:35:00 - [587] Yeah. Problem is, the other bcs are scary to bigger ships, also. The Myrmidon still needs help (I'd advocate losing 1-2 turrets and boosting drone bay, like most people here). Agreed with all above. Following the Gallente line of technologies it could either be granted a sixth weapon slot, drone bonus, and a Sensor Dampener bonus (making it less of a drone ship not really hereditary) It's obvious the Myrmidon is meant to be a droneboat. I had doubts about whether or not they actually need one (especially with the Ishtar and Domi as peak performers.) However this is a definite step in the right for a decent affordable drone ship. Push it's drone bay up to 200m3 or give a tertiary bonii of +15m3 drone space/level similar to the Ishkur bonus.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.05 11:13:00 - [588] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 04/11/2006 16:00:56 Originally by: Ithildin * Ferox, +2 turret hardpoints, +300MW Maybe - a few tf, and remove 2 launcher hardpoints. It's got more terra flops than the Brutix, and railguns require less terra flops than blasters. With what I proposed, the Ferox would still have 50 (iirc, base) CPU more than the Brutix to support a shield tank over a armour tank. If the Brutix is "fine" for CPU, the Ferox should be, too. Quote: Originally by: Ithildin * Brutix, +250MW, +25TF Sounds about right. Originally by: Ithildin * Myrmidon, -1 turret hardpoint, +200m¦ drone bay I'd go so far as to say -2. And possibly shave a little grid off as well - don't want to see this thing fitting 6x Med Nos II, regardless of the low range they have. Good point. I'm still hoping nosferatus will be reduced well enough, though. The problem with the Myrmidon is that it hasn't got enough bonuses left to support the hybrid turret damage bonus it'd need to promote hybrid turrets - nor are there any sufficiently good drone modules to merit losing the dps from projectiles or cap-heavy lasers (I'd go as far as say the current drone modules are a joke). Quote: Originally by: Ithildin Something to debate is how well the Prophecy function, as well. I get the feeling the Prophecy might need another hardpoint in light of recent additions. I dunno. It still tanks really hard with that bonus and a 1600 plate. Makes a durable and cheap gang mod platform that's still more than able to defend itself in a gang. Holds up under fire much better than a harbinger, and because its tier-1 people are less likely to shoot at it, and will probably focus on the flashy and bangy tier-2s zooming around on MWD. Maybe a little more cap to allay the fact it only has 3 mids, but the Harbinger is the solo ship, so possibly that's not needed. I think that once the new-toy-noia has settled, people will stop thinking about BCs as two tiers and see them as the same size rectangle. What you say is the truth, though, and highlights just how ****-poor a repair amount bonus is in practice compared to a resistance bonus. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 12:28:00 - [589] Originally by: Ithildin It's got more terra flops than the Brutix, and railguns require less terra flops than blasters. With what I proposed, the Ferox would still have 50 (iirc, base) CPU more than the Brutix to support a shield tank over a armour tank. If the Brutix is "fine" for CPU, the Ferox should be, too. Good point. The grid saved from not running launchers should balance out in the end. Originally by: Ithildin Good point. I'm still hoping nosferatus will be reduced well enough, though. The problem with the Myrmidon is that it hasn't got enough bonuses left to support the hybrid turret damage bonus it'd need to promote hybrid turrets - nor are there any sufficiently good drone modules to merit losing the dps from projectiles or cap-heavy lasers (I'd go as far as say the current drone modules are a joke). Yup. That's the problem with balancing drone ships really, T2 drones are like T2 weapons with 2-3 T2 damage mods applied. Originally by: Ithildin I think that once the new-toy-noia has settled, people will stop thinking about BCs as two tiers and see them as the same size rectangle. You might be right. Guess we'll have to wait and see how it pans out on TQ, as usual. Originally by: Ithildin What you say is the truth, though, and highlights just how ****-poor a repair amount bonus is in practice compared to a resistance bonus. They're OK-ish on TQ now, but with the 50% HP boost they really go down the drain. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Talostan Gurt Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.05 12:54:00 - [590] Well what can I say. The Amarr T3 bs sucks so hard i dont know why i am amarr. The cap useage is pants and most ppl are fitting auto cannons on for godsake. Amarr are energy weapons not poxy AC's. Very very very disapointed. Soon to take out my fleet fitted geddon to see how teh T3 bs (and i mean bs as in B*******) can handle it. Poor show CCP hope something drastic happens b4 the mighty Kali is released........................

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 12:58:00 - [591] wrong thread m8... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2006.11.05 13:51:00 - [592] guys browsing tru forums i saw a load of "drake is overpowered" threads. can someone sumerize some stats here and make a lil comparison with the other tier 2 bc. all i read so far is that drake can have a passive tank of about 22k shields and awsome passive recharge and 7 heavies hitting for insane amouts of dmg. since i cannot play eve here due to r/l business i keep in touch with it via reading this (even if i am actually supposed to work here ). Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 13:59:00 - [593] That's it. 6-slot shield tank setups are utterly worthless in pvp with a 15km weapon, but shrug apparently everyone will be flying them. /me wonders how anyone is going to kill anyone else with no speed mod, scram, web... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.05 14:19:00 - [594] maybe harbringer close range "bonus" will be good against them... while the hurricane will have to go toe to toe... see it's not that useless :P but i'm not that sure tha HAM setup will be so popular, "standard" missiles are still effective, have not low range and allow a better fitting
Peppy LePew	Posted - 2006.11.05 14:21:00 - [595] Originally by: keepiru That's it. 6-slot shield tank setups are utterly worthless in pvp with a 15km weapon, but shrug apparently everyone will be flying them. /me wonders how anyone is going to kill anyone else with no speed mod, scram, web... Don't forget the sig radius of a small planet.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.05 14:37:00 - [596] Originally by: keepiru That's it. 6-slot shield tank setups are utterly worthless in pvp with a 15km weapon, but shrug apparently everyone will be flying them. /me wonders how anyone is going to kill anyone else with no speed mod, scram, web... Javelin Hams. I think 100km total distance as on test. Even if they reduce it by 50% it will still have 50km total range. And tackling isnt as much of an issue as long as you have a few inties and/or a couple of dictors. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 14:38:00 - [597] Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 14:47:32 Originally by: Ath Amon maybe it will be a problem maybe if it will turn to be a very effective and very cheap anti BS ship Nah, it deals less damage than the others by a fair chunk and has the sig radius of a megathron when in full passive-tank mode. It could be fairly effective with Rage HAMs, but Rages have 12km range, so I don't see how a 6-slot-tank drake is going to get in range with them and no speed mod. Originally by: Nyxus Javelin Hams. I think 100km total distance as on test. Even if they reduce it by 50% it will still have 50km total range. And tackling isnt as much of an issue as long as you have a few inties and/or a couple of dictors. Javelin HAMs are stupidly overpowered against cruisers, no doubt there. 1) They do too much damage, should be nerfed to 85 base to bring them inline with Jav torps. 2) They have far too much range. They need to be nerfed so they only have 25% more range than normal HAMs, again just like Jav Torps to Torps. They're near useless against frigs though, so once those 2 are fixed, they're all good. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.05 17:13:00 - [598] Originally by: keepiru That's it. 6-slot shield tank setups are utterly worthless in pvp with a 15km weapon, but shrug apparently everyone will be flying them. /me wonders how anyone is going to kill anyone else with no speed mod, scram, web... You make it sound like everyone will be using HAMs
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 17:33:00 - [599] That's because HM Drakes don't really concern me. 1-on1, if they want to hold me I can kill them, if they tank to the point where I can't, they can't hold me and I run. Good fire support in gangs, to be sure, but no more no less than a Hurricane w. 720s or a Harbinger w. Heavy Beams, if setup right. Tactically different because of divergences in weapon/tank use/position - less damage closer up more further away, can tank more with damage mods but cant help scramble and has poor lock times if it does, not very mobile so slows gangs down a little - but not particularly better or worse. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2006.11.05 18:40:00 - [600] Originally by: keepiru That's because HM Drakes don't really concern me. 1-on1, if they want to hold me I can kill them, if they tank to the point where I can't, they can't hold me and I run. Good fire support in gangs, to be sure, but no more no less than a Hurricane w. 720s or a Harbinger w. Heavy Beams, if setup right. Tactically different because of divergences in weapon/tank use/position - less damage closer up more further away, can tank more with damage mods but cant help scramble and has poor lock times if it does, not very mobile so slows gangs down a little - but not particularly better or worse. Well, you can't have heavy beams on a Harbinger. And that's the only negative thing I have found with the ship. A little more grid and all is fine. Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.

stainage Gallente Final-Vendetta	Posted - 2006.11.05 19:03:00 - [601] Personally I feel that the tier t2 bc should be implemented into the command ships. This might finally mean that the eos actually gets a 1/2 decent bonus to its drones damage. Also the nighthawk might get a rof bonus.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.05 19:20:00 - [602] Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 19:21:53 Originally by: Brazero Well, you can't have heavy beams on a Harbinger. And that's the only negative thing I have found with the ship. A little more grid and all is fine. 15001.25=1875 2750.97=1732.5 Remains: 142.5MW Compare it to the Hurricane, 275MW per 720mm II as well but 125MW less from the ship, they get left with a whole 17.5MW... The Hurricane will actually outdamage the Harbinger at all ranges you'd expect to use these guns at, so its not really that much of an advtantage (you'll need an RCU to fit other stuff anyway)... But I can't exactly say that beam fitting is that much of an issue, compared to fitting a full rack of the biggest weapon on other armor-tanked cruiser/BCs. Originally by:* stainage Also the nighthawk might get a rof bonus. The NH is already getting a bonus in Kali, check the stickys in Ships & Modules. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Sentry Skills	Posted - 2006.11.05 20:36:00 - [603] Think someone could take some screen shots of the 4 New BC's, If you could get shots of all tabs. So the poeple can see what is what. And compare them all. With the Command Ships and the old BC's
Sentry Skills	Posted - 2006.11.05 21:28:00 - [604] Edited by: Sentry Skills on 05/11/2006 21:33:55 umm yea
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:37:00 - [605] Originally by: Sentry Skills Edited by: Sentry Skills on 05/11/2006 21:33:55 umm yea ???? Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:54:00 - [606] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 19:21:53 Originally by: Brazero Well, you can't have heavy beams on a Harbinger. And that's the only negative thing I have found with the ship. A little more grid and all is fine. 15001.25=1875 2750.9*7=1732.5 Remains: 142.5MW Compare it to the Hurricane, 275MW per 720mm II as well but 125MW less from the ship, they get left with a whole 17.5MW... The Hurricane will actually outdamage the Harbinger at all ranges you'd expect to use these guns at, so its not really that much of an advtantage (you'll need an RCU to fit other stuff anyway)... But I can't exactly say that beam fitting is that much of an issue, compared to fitting a full rack of the biggest weapon on other armor-tanked cruiser/BCs. noooo again... 220 vs focused it will outdamage the harbringer under 5km... not at all range and the difference in pg with maxed skills is 1pg it could use a bit more pg (just a bit and not enought to fit heavies) and maybe get a bit more dronebay... but is not true that the hurricane outdamage it at any range
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.05 23:28:00 - [607] Everyone is ***ing about the myrmidon, 4 heavys is a bad idea... not because of dps... but because 2 heavys 3 medium and 4 lights would be a better setup, because A) heavys are fat, thats why people shoot them down, when people try to shoot your mediums they die trying, real pvp'ers know this. B) holly they are slow... C) small ships will ***you, 4 light t2s will keep the crows from eating your face. Now, the vexor is crap, i personally loved it but eventually gave up and switched to the thorax because its tankier while being faster and better in every way... 50% less drone damage i can live with when i can MWD up to people and tackle them, or MWD away to safety (hopefully...) Ok so the vexor doesnt really compare that well in pvp, it might be tankier than an arbitrator but thats not hard, arbis fast and gets a missle which is always nice. The myrmidon is tier 2, its more expensive and should really have less drawbacks than the brutix, everything i read tells me otherwise. Drone bay size isnt the problem, because you know whats great about the myrmidon? 5 med slots. that means either uber tackling, cap regen or better yet..... ECM Everyone crys about ecm but with the crap damage that the myr is accused of why should it not get an ECM bonus? the caldari are getting one, and yes ECM is a caldari thing in the storyline, hurray, drones are a gallente thing but everyone else has em. Look at the new amarr gear. ECM + Drones + Nos works well, it doesnt do mega damage but its effective and proven to work 1 v 1, if you end up in a 2 v 1 you're in trouble... but i dont think this is anything to worry about since when do you see a fair 1 v 1 in 0.0? its normally 15 guys vs 3 or 50 v 1 at a gate. So my proposal is..... allow the myrmidon to excell at what it was clearly intended to, electronic warfare, if you get a 20 or 40 second headstart on those other BCs i think the damamge difference will even out.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.06 01:17:00 - [608] Originally by: Tonkin all i can say is the drake is fantastic its a fantastic boat and it doesnt need any changes to it. for god sake people CALDARI NEEDS A GOOD SHIP They don't have a good ship then? Quote: i reading people whining about OOO it does too much damage OOO my ship cant take it out Which is and has been a problem all along with Caldari. Once upon a time missiles weren't too good cos you could outfly them. This was compensated for by the fact that Caldari generally could tank like gods and had uber EW. Then they fixed missiles to be at least as good as guns and better at short ranges but Caldari retained their ability to tank like mofo's without any form of compromise. Quote: so what, jam nos damp etc, do i have to say more, like a vaga it will come in cant hit it with torps does nasty damage, bang a nos on ur ship or cruise missiles, you will see him run like hell. As a more experienced pilot in your corp can tell you, damps do nothing at 20km and are generally worthless. Nos doesn't affect your Drake in any way and ECM will be Caldari-monopoly in Kali. Quote: plus our missiles are being nerfed again so calm down deal with the drake, because every ship in eve can go down, depends how you think of your setup or the tactics you use. They're being nerfed? Last time I checked the addition of assault missiles has been another nail in the coffin of closerange turret users and the side-effect of larger HP values is that non-cap consuming weapons got boosted by quite a big amount. Quote: if you get pawned right away against the drake, you have 3 things to consider. your bad at pvp (IE CRAP) your ship setup up was laughable, or the guy was tacticly more better than you are. ive lost fights against APPARENT weaker ships, comes down to tactics and fittings skills aswell you need to train the right ones. Yeh, it takes sooo much skillpoints and tactics to fly caldari missile ships . Goodbye credibility... Dude, it's called "fire and forget don't worry about range, size, cap or transversal and watch your target die".
LancerSix Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:42:00 - [609] I was literally on the test server for 10 mins today, but two notes about the Drake: Do any of you find it odd that the ship model has 8 launchers but it can only fit 7? I say add an 8th launcher and either get rid of a mid and/or low slot and/or give a damage nerf in stats, somewhat like Destroyers. (-10% Missile Damage/ROF blah blah). So pretty much it would be the same as it is now DPS wise, but just dump a stream of missiles on the enemy. Range: Granted my missile skills suck, but I was having trouble hitting at 15KM in the Drake today with HAM's. I don't know what the deal is, but they are MUCH shorter range than heavy missiles. I know if I had to be within 15KM of something in combat, I plain would'nt use them, no matter how good the damage was. Solution: Drop tank bonus on Drake, add speed/flight time bonuses. Think Caracal. Other Solution: Allow HAM Launchers to fire normal heavy missiles, possibly giving them a ROF bonus. I mean normal assault launchers already fire Standard Missiles, same idea. That way it will work like T1/T2 ammo does, you switch ammo based on situation. Those are just my initial reactions to the Drake, other than that, it looks cool as hell, good job CCP .
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:14:00 - [610] Originally by: LancerSix I was literally on the test server for 10 mins today, but two notes about the Drake: Do any of you find it odd that the ship model has 8 launchers but it can only fit 7? I say add an 8th launcher and either get rid of a mid and/or low slot and/or give a damage nerf in stats, somewhat like Destroyers. (-10% Missile Damage/ROF blah blah). So pretty much it would be the same as it is now DPS wise, but just dump a stream of missiles on the enemy. Range: Granted my missile skills suck, but I was having trouble hitting at 15KM in the Drake today with HAM's. I don't know what the deal is, but they are MUCH shorter range than heavy missiles. I know if I had to be within 15KM of something in combat, I plain would'nt use them, no matter how good the damage was. Solution: Drop tank bonus on Drake, add speed/flight time bonuses. Think Caracal. Other Solution: Allow HAM Launchers to fire normal heavy missiles, possibly giving them a ROF bonus. I mean normal assault launchers already fire Standard Missiles, same idea. That way it will work like T1/T2 ammo does, you switch ammo based on situation. Those are just my initial reactions to the Drake, other than that, it looks cool as hell, good job CCP . Uh, who cares that it has extra missiles on the model? And HAMs are supposed to be short-range weapons. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu

James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:09:00 - [611] Originally by: LancerSix Other Solution: Allow HAM Launchers to fire normal heavy missiles, possibly giving them a ROF bonus. I mean normal assault launchers already fire Standard Missiles, same idea. That way it will work like T1/T2 ammo does, you switch ammo based on situation. I'd agree to that the minute you up the minimum range on all blasters to 15km and allow us to use spike ammo in them so that we could get 70-80km range on them. What you are suggesting is similar to what Siege Launchers were able to do before CCP fixed them (fit Torps or Cruise Missiles). HAMs have a limitation on range just like blasters, but most missile boat pilots don't like that they'd have to have a weaker tank to control range, they'd rather say boost the missile range so that we can warp in and start firing. Welcome to the world of BlasterBoat pilots. Now if CCP where to actually remove capicitor consumption on Hybrid/laser weapons so that Gallente/Amarr have the same advantage that Caldari and Minmatar have in combat (capless weapons).
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:21:00 - [612] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux They don't have a good ship then? No, Caldari do not have good ship for PvP now. At all. Quote: i reading people whining about OOO it does too much damage OOO my ship cant take it out Quote: This was compensated for by the fact that Caldari generally could tank like gods and had uber EW. False. Armour tanking is comparable to shield tanking. What about uber EW for Caldari, please? May be I am missing something, but I do not see on Raven special EW abilities. Quote: Then they fixed missiles to be at least as good as guns You lie. Missiles worse than guns. Quote: As a more experienced pilot in your corp can tell you, damps do nothing at 20km and are generally worthless. You lie again. Damps en masse terminate warship fighting ability in 100%. Just learn how to use it effectively. Hint for noobs: see also Arazu. Quote: Nos doesn't affect your Drake in any way and ECM will be Caldari-monopoly in Kali. ECM in Kali is nerfed to become unusable. So we have to be grateful for monopoly on useless thing? Quote: They're being nerfed? Yes. Quote: Last time I checked the addition of assault missiles has been another nail in the coffin of closerange turret users and the side-effect of larger HP values is that non-cap consuming weapons got boosted by quite a big amount. Use close range turrets with brain. Otherwise ask BoB how to fight. Quote: Yeh, it takes sooo much skillpoints and tactics to fly caldari missile ships . Yes, it takes much skillpoints Quote: Dude, it's called "fire and forget don't worry about range, size, cap or transversal and watch your target die". You lie again. You care only about traversal. And you care if your commander is idiot which forget to bring some tacklers on battlefield. We care about target size(you do not care, because turrets is less vulnerable) We care about target speed. 3 km/sec target is almost invulnerable to any missiles.2-2.5 km/sec means 40-80% damage less. We care about alfa-strike - we do not have alfa-srike. We care about fleet battles - we cannot participate in fleet battles. We care about tanking - we cannot tank armout effectively and cannot shield tank effectively and have some PvP abilities on(MWD, Scrambler, Web). And cap is problem only for laser user. For projectile and hybrid with good skills uit is not problem.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:52:00 - [613] Quote: i reading people whining about OOO it does too much damage OOO my ship cant take it out Yes, that's because it's true. Ravens beat ANY other BS close up, except for Domi which is about 50-50 depending on how much luck the Domi pilot has with his jammer. Quote: False. Armour tanking is comparable to shield tanking. Shield tanking is faster, it's more shieldpoints per cap point, it's used on ships that don't use cap for shooting and it's easier to harden it thanks to damage controls being lowslot and Invul Field II being uber. Shield tanking beats armor tanking on pure numbers hands down. Period. Quote: What about uber EW for Caldari, please? May be I am missing something, but I do not see on Raven special EW abilities. To quote someone else: "So what we have now are utterly overpowered ECM Jammers and what we have in Kali are utterly overpowered ECM Jammers that only Caldari can use". I didn't mention Raven btw. Quote: You lie. Missiles worse than guns. No they're not. They are worse at 150km due to not being instadamage and that's the ONLY situation where guns are better than missiles. Quote: You lie again. Damps en masse terminate warship fighting ability in 100%. Just learn how to use it effectively. Hint for noobs: see also Arazu. First of all: en masse? Omg... You did know stakcing penalties yes? It stops doing anything worth mentioning after the third. Also, a jammer reduces my lock range by 100% and even breaks existing locks and locks in progress. Damps are worthless when there could be a jammer in the same slot. Fact. Quote: ECM in Kali is nerfed to become unusable. So we have to be grateful for monopoly on useless thing? Check bonuses on Rook, Scorp and BB. Look at your own stupidity. Delete it. Quote: Quote: They're being nerfed? Yes. Aside from the ridiculous Javelin Torps that CCP just forgot to nerf when they nerfed Precision cruise a while ago, care to tell me what got nerfed? Quote: Use close range turrets with brain. Otherwise ask BoB how to fight. Wtf has BoB to do with it? I'd be stupid to use close range turrets and get anywhere near a torp raven or drake tbh. Quote: Yes, it takes much skillpoints /me watches at character screen.... yeh about 2,5 million. Gunnery has 8,7mil. Yup, missiles takes a lot of skill. Quote: You lie again. You care only about traversal. And you care if your commander is idiot which forget to bring some tacklers on battlefield. How tacklers come into this is beyond me. Btw, having tacklers on the field actually is a bigger improvement to Caldari ships than to non-Caldari ships cos it frees up midslots for more tank or EW, the latter of which other races usually don't even have enough CPU for. Good job shooting down your own argument, but I'll gladly help you. Quote: We care about target size (you do not care, because turrets is less vulnerable) Yeh, you're right. Turrets don't have this stat called "signature resolution" on them. It's meaningless indeed. Turrets less vulnerable wtf? No, they generally don't get damaged, when they're shooting, no. Quote: We care about target speed. 3 km/sec target is almost invulnerable to any missiles.2-2.5 km/sec means 40-80% damage less. Keyword "almost". That's still 100% more damage than any turret will ever do to a target going 2,5k/sec. Quote: We care about fleet battles - we cannot participate in fleet battles. Rokh? Quote: And cap is problem only for laser user. For projectile and hybrid with good skills uit is not problem. Fact #1: Hybrids use more cap than lasers after factoring ship bonus (that all Amarr ships have btw). Fact #2: Hybrid ships have less cap than laser ships. Fact #3: Projectiles don't even use any f-...
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:03:00 - [614] I tested the Myrm on Sisi and it looks good but i sill don't like the idea of having 1 less slot than the other Battlecruisers. What about adding anothe low slot at the expense of some grid. Make it so that you can fit a RCU in the last low and end up with the same grid as today or, you fit smaller weapons and use that last low to have a better tank. Right now it is just a mini Dominix, with a crippled drone bay. Drone bay should also be increased. If adding another heavy drone gives it too much damage just reduce the damage bonus to compensate it.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:12:00 - [615] Shayla Sh'inlux, that is Zixxa you are trying to make sensible arguments with. He/She is like Detaurus - a blantantly obvious reason why these message boards need a block feature. Ignore him/her. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:19:00 - [616] I didn't notice it while skimming the thread, but has anyone commented on the Drake's cargo bay? It's at 345 m3 currently, same as a Ferox. However, missile ships traditionally get more cargo than gunships. Compare to the Caracal's 450, Cerberus's 650, and Nighthawk's 700 and it seems the Drake is in need of a cargo boost.
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:26:00 - [617] Originally by: Mack Dorgeans I didn't notice it while skimming the thread, but has anyone commented on the Drake's cargo bay? It's at 345 m3 currently, same as a Ferox. However, missile ships traditionally get more cargo than gunships. Compare to the Caracal's 450, Cerberus's 650, and Nighthawk's 700 and it seems the Drake is in need of a cargo boost. Sorry, but why? (I am not trying to flame, i am just ignorant, i tried the Drake in Sisi with a passive shield tank, worked well and you can carry thouthands of HAMs). How many Cap booster charges do you thing you need to carry to be at par with other BC's?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:42:00 - [618] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Yes, that's because it's true. Ravens beat ANY other BS close up, except for Domi which is about 50-50 depending on how much luck the Domi pilot has with his jammer. You lie. And it is uncivilised behaviour. Ravens cannot beat god BS in close up. Quote: it's more shieldpoints per cap point, You lie again. Get calculator. Quote: To quote someone else: "So what we have now are utterly overpowered ECM Jammers and what we have in Kali are utterly overpowered ECM Jammers that only Caldari can use". I didn't mention Raven btw. Good, so EW is not for Caldari. Because only ship to fight we have is Raven. Quote: No they're not. They are worse at 150km due to not being instadamage and that's the ONLY situation where guns are better than missiles. You lie. Missiles worse than guns everywhere except some artificial situations which eliminated by smart commander. Also missile raven is good for PvE, but not better than any commandship or Dominix. R u king of PvE? Quote: First of all: en masse? Omg... You did know stakcing penalties yes? It stops doing anything worth mentioning after the third. What is the problem to bring 4 dampeners on battlefield? Quote: Also, a jammer reduces my lock range by 100% and even breaks existing locks and locks in progress. Damps are worthless when there could be a jammer in the same slot. Fact. R u dumb? ECM is chance based and it means taht you will be killed if chance will against you. And in PvP you will be killed quite regularly. Dampeners work 100% and Arazu kills BS in 100% cases. Quote: Check bonuses on Rook, Scorp and BB. Checked. What else? ECM is nerfed. Quote: Aside from the ridiculous Javelin Torps that CCP just forgot to nerf when they nerfed Precision cruise a while ago, care to tell me what got nerfed? You lie. Rage also nerfed. And torps(because of jav torps nerf) had been removed from the game at all. Everybody being in 0.0 know that the only treason to put torps on Raven is javelin. Quote: Wtf has BoB to do with it? Ask BoB, kid. Kindly ask and they will demonstrate to you how devastating are turrets ship. And how miserable are Ravens. Quote: I'd be stupid to use close range turrets and get anywhere near a torp raven or drake tbh. R u stupid? Quote: /me watches at character screen.... yeh about 2,5 million. Gunnery has 8,7mil. Yup, missiles takes a lot of skill. Because u r missile noob. Quote: How tacklers come into this is beyond me. Good question. Go to 0.0! Quote: Btw, having tacklers on the field actually is a bigger improvement to Caldari ships than to non-Caldari ships cos it frees up midslots for more tank or EW, the latter of which other races usually don't even have enough CPU for. Good job shooting down your own argument, but I'll gladly help you. Tackler do not tank. Tackler tackles. Do you understand? And best tackler atm is Rifter. Do you, nooblet, understand this? Quote: Yeh, you're right. Turrets don't have this stat called "signature resolution" on them. It's meaningless indeed. Turrets less vulnerable wtf? Quote: Oh, kid, you have to go to PvP kindergarden. I gladly refuse to teach you. Quote: Keyword "almost". That's still 100% more damage than any turret will ever do to a target going 2,5k/sec. Almost means almost. 2 dps. Turrets will kill this target with good chances. Quote: Rokh? It has no damage bonus, it is not missiles boat, it is Gallente's one.	Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:00:00 - [619] Edited by: Mack Dorgeans on 06/11/2006 16:02:00 Originally by: Zhull Originally by: Mack Dorgeans I didn't notice it while skimming the thread, but has anyone commented on the Drake's cargo bay? It's at 345 m3 currently, same as a Ferox. However, missile ships traditionally get more cargo than gunships. Compare to the Caracal's 450, Cerberus's 650, and Nighthawk's 700 and it seems the Drake is in need of a cargo boost. Sorry, but why? (I am not trying to flame, i am just ignorant, i tried the Drake in Sisi with a passive shield tank, worked well and you can carry thouthands of HAMs). How many Cap booster charges do you thing you need to carry to be at par with other BC's? I'm just pointing out that it breaks the established trend, and appears as though when the Drake was built, they simply copied the Ferox's attributes and never changed the cargo. The ship won't just carry heavy assault missiles in all circumstances. Sometimes players will have a heavy launcher setup or mixed launchers (maybe even normal assaults), requiring multiple missile sizes as well as damage types. It just seems wrong for a tier 2 missile BC to have a lower cargo bay than a Caracal, doesn't it? Edit: Oh, and with the HAM ROF, sometimes a Drake pilot is going to need MANY thousands of those.
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:07:00 - [620] Originally by: Packtu'saMyrmidon (Gallente) - Come on people, read the description. It's a ship designed to withstand damage and last on a battlefield, not one that will dish out loads of damage, which is, by the way, not the only factor one should consider on a ship. I think that the Myrmidon should be given a 125 m3 drone bay, but have the drone damage bonus removed and the drone hitpoints bonus increased to 20%. This will go hand-in-hand with its overall resiliance, and still maintain some of its previous damage potential. Keep the armor bonus, and give it a sixth turret slot. [/quote We dont want another fuxing rail boat, its a drone boat. Increase the drone bay to 250m3 and remove all turret slots. Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!

Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.06 16:39:00 - [621] Originally by: Jason Marshall We dont want another fuxing rail boat, its a drone boat. Increase the drone bay to 250m3 and remove all turret slots. May be not 250 m3, but it have to be seriously increased.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.06 18:04:00 - [622] Originally by: Ithildin Shayla Sh'inlux, that is Zixxa you are trying to make sensible arguments with. He/She is like Detaurus - a blantantly obvious reason why these message boards need a block feature. Ignore him/her. Sound advice. And yes, this board needs a block feature. I thought I was still tossing some arguments at Tonkin, but alas, I wasn't and if that's his alt, he's making a fool out of his corp, which is a shame as TMPL are nice guys. However, I'll go ask the BoB ubergods how to play Eve I guess since apparently 2 years of PvP experience make me a nublet
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:25:00 - [623] Edited by: Derran on 06/11/2006 20:38:40 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux First of all: en masse? Omg... You did know stakcing penalties yes? It stops doing anything worth mentioning after the third. Also, a jammer reduces my lock range by 100% and even breaks existing locks and locks in progress. Damps are worthless when there could be a jammer in the same slot. Fact. I hate to have to agree with the moron but he has something of a point with dampeners. If you have enough on the ship type they work with (Celestis hull), they work really well to making someone's lock range nearly negilible. However, they only work when you put several on one target whereas ECM can work on multiple targets. Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: Yes, it takes much skillpoints /me watches at character screen.... yeh about 2,5 million. Gunnery has 8,7mil. Yup, missiles takes a lot of skill. Actually, it kind of can. At least for those facing a missile user. Ever fire a kinetic heavy missile against a T2 gallente AF? It sucks. Or use a bomber in an attempt to nearly insta pop an interceptor only to have your cruise missile do 12 points of damage because of the interceptor's method of approach? It really sucks. I usually do more damage depending on the kind of approach I take to the target but the additional missile skills have helped significantly. I may push some of the lower rank ones to 5. Originally by: Zixxa You lie. And it is uncivilised behaviour. Ravens cannot beat god BS in close up. The word is uncivilized. And yes they can. Torpedoes, anyone? Originally by: Zixxa Quote: it's more shieldpoints per cap point, You lie again. Get calculator. She probably has a calculator that goes beyond 20 so you should use more than your shoes and socks when adding up the numbers. Originally by: Zixxa Good, so EW is not for Caldari. Because only ship to fight we have is Raven. And the Caracal, and the Cerberus, etc, etc. Originally by: Zixxa You lie. Missiles worse than guns everywhere except some artificial situations which eliminated by smart commander. Also missile raven is good for PvE, but not better than any commandship or Dominix. R u king of PvE? Are you smoking something? Originally by: Zixxa What is the problem to bring 4 dampeners on battlefield? The penalty becomes very harsh after the 3rd dampener. Originally by: Zixxa R u dumb? ECM is chance based and it means taht you will be killed if chance will against you. And in PvP you will be killed quite regularly. Dampeners work 100% and Arazu kills BS in 100% cases. Um, riiiiight. And you pierced the BS tank how exactly? And that would be only 1 BS. You clearly have never flown a Rook when the pilot has Recon 5 and using a racial jammer which will make it have 13 points of jamming strength and spread out the jamming, so I am not going to even bother commenting on that beyond this. Originally by: Zixxa Quote: Check bonuses on Rook, Scorp and BB. Checked. What else? ECM is nerfed. You need to learn to read the devblogs. Changes are being made to keep ECM on ECM ships in a way that will get their bonuses changed to keep they similiar, or the same, as they are now. Only non-ew ships will be 'nerfed'. Originally by: Zixxa Quote: I'd be stupid to use close range turrets and get anywhere near a torp raven or drake tbh. R u stupid? I don't think so. I think she knows how to type full sentences with complete, correct spelling. Originally by: Zixxa Because u r missile noob. Maybe she is but I'm not. 7M in missile skills, 17.3M in spaceship. Originally by: Zixxa
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:39:00 - [624] Back to what the original thread is about, namely the battlecruisers. I got to fit up and use a Drake on SISI recently. Mean ship. Unlike when I fit a Raven, I had plenty of room to fit all my T2 launchers, some medium nosferatu and a T2 shield tank and still have comfortable enough resistances where I could fit a warp disruptor. No BCUs though because I needed 3 power diags II and a CPU II. I ended up with over 70-80% for resistances and 13k shields thanks to a large extender II. Not too shabby.
Wilhelm Beck Tritanium Workers Union	Posted - 2006.11.06 22:11:00 - [625] I would like to state before i begin this that I got to page 12 of this thread, then i bogged down, right after the dps graphs. Thus, I am sure that some wild eyed young man or woman has come to his/her senses, about the idea of allowing a battle cruiser to carry a full compliment of battleship size weapons. The idea that one needs 5 heavy drones with backups in order to successfully fight in a battlecruiser scares me. If Some GM came to me and was like, "I will grant you a ferrox that can fit 5 torps but has no cargo capacity." I would instantly go for it even without reloads, without bonuses, and without a thought. Even if he/she said the same thing about cruise. Why then is it a travesty that my gallente comrades can only fit 4 battleship classes weapons on their battlecruiser? even then with out reloads? Let alone the equivalent of the primary weapon of their most scary battleship... While I will readily admit that Drones are shootable, I do not believe that this fact some how entitles you to the ability to use heavy drones at will. I would also like to ask about the fact that somehow doing cruiser classed damage became a horrible failure in battle cruiser design. Frankly, as one of those "Caldari cheaters" who chooses to use missiles on my Ferox, I can tell you that I in fact do LESS DPS than a Caracal. Thus, doing slightly more damage than a Vexor is vexing.(ooh... pun-tastic) this should be made up by having more drones and having a fabulous tank. In closing, I am sure that this will be easily rebutted by commenting on my obvious dis regard for grammar and or spelling. However, if you can explain to me the logic of fitting battleship class weapons to a single BC and calling that balanced because in an artificial environment the numbers are slightly less than what you wanted. Or if you are GM who wants to let me slap 5 torpedos on a Ferox and go tooling around low sec, please let me know. Other than that, have a nice day.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 23:08:00 - [626] 5 Heavy drones are hardly "battleship weapons". They're only a supplement to aid the big guns. The DPS of a Dominix with only 5 heavies is actually ****-poor. The only reason it works is because with the other person nossed&ecm'd, they can't do anything but sit there and wait for their inevitable death. Besides, just give the Myrmidon a 7.5% bonus to drones instead of 10%, let it carry 5 heavies and it'll be about balanced with the other BCs. If it was able to carry 5 heavies with no bonus it would be severely underpowered without a hybrid gun bonus as well and that wouldn't be much of a drone boat.
Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.06 23:42:00 - [627] I know that this is going to get slammed, but I have to say it: The Harbinger: It is, in every aspect, a beautiful and great ship. I absolutely love it. It fits my style perfectly, and has everything I could possibly want. As a Prophecy pilot, it like a complete upgrade. It even looks sharp! So what's the problem, you say? As it stands now, every stat is an improvement of the Prophecy. Every single one. What's the difference, besides being an upgrade? Larger drone bay. More armor. More cap. More shields. More high slots. More turrets. More PG and CPU. More. That's just it, though. Simply more. It has no missile launcher slot, but other than that, where's it's difference? What makes it special? At this point, I like the Harbinger so much I'd suggest changing the Prophecy to something, like a bigger Arbi or something. SOMETHING to give Amarr ships that flavor that I'm so jealous of Caldari and Gallente over. What needs to change beats me. Just please don't touch the Harbinger. My little dragon ... Genesis Project
Ergo Morte	Posted - 2006.11.06 23:49:00 - [628] Originally by: Wilhelm Beck I would like to state before i begin this that I got to page 12 of this thread, then i bogged down, right after the dps graphs. Thus, I am sure that some wild eyed young man or woman has come to his/her senses, about the idea of allowing a battle cruiser to carry a full compliment of battleship size weapons. The idea that one needs 5 heavy drones with backups in order to successfully fight in a battlecruiser scares me. If Some GM came to me and was like, "I will grant you a ferrox that can fit 5 torps but has no cargo capacity." I would instantly go for it even without reloads, without bonuses, and without a thought. Even if he/she said the same thing about cruise. Why then is it a travesty that my gallente comrades can only fit 4 battleship classes weapons on their battlecruiser? even then with out reloads? Let alone the equivalent of the primary weapon of their most scary battleship... While I will readily admit that Drones are shootable, I do not believe that this fact some how entitles you to the ability to use heavy drones at will. I would also like to ask about the fact that somehow doing cruiser classed damage became a horrible failure in battle cruiser design. Frankly, as one of those "Caldari cheaters" who chooses to use missiles on my Ferox, I can tell you that I in fact do LESS DPS than a Caracal. Thus, doing slightly more damage than a Vexor is vexing.(ooh... pun-tastic) this should be made up by having more drones and having a fabulous tank. In closing, I am sure that this will be easily rebutted by commenting on my obvious dis regard for grammar and or spelling. However, if you can explain to me the logic of fitting battleship class weapons to a single BC and calling that balanced because in an artificial environment the numbers are slightly less than what you wanted. Or if you are GM who wants to let me slap 5 torpedos on a Ferox and go tooling around low sec, please let me know. Other than that, have a nice day. Its a good thing a drone expert like yourself has come to straighten everyone out on exactly what is needed for a Drone boat to effectively fight. If you got as far as the DPS graphs you would have noted that the Myr is far from overpowered with 5 heavys alone. The main arguement from the Gallente quarter is that we would like a pure drone boat. That means start with a full flight of heavys and balance from that point. If it means that we only end up with 3 or 4 turrets with no bonus in order to maintain balance, so be it. Spares are a neccessity to maintain DPS, think of them as the most expensive spare ammo in the game. CCP has already taken a slot from the Myr this is normal with drone boats however they have yet to actualy give it an appropiate sized drone bay. The Ishtar (T2 cruiser) and Eos ( command ship ) both can use large drones so withholding that ability from the Myr seems odd. A 250m3 to 300m3 drone bay will grant a nice bit of sustainability and flexibilty without overpowering the Myr. with alarge enough dronebay the Myr may be able to actally be the mid damage, high tank that the description depicts.
Orileus	Posted - 2006.11.07 00:01:00 - [629] Originally by: Centurin Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 18:48:01 Hell, without a turret damage bonus, I don't think asking for a 3rd wave would be out of line. Man this is insane!! almost every post is "more drone bay!!! dps is to low!!"" arent there other drones out there to?? webby drones, energy neut drones, painter drones? was this bc actually intended to be a solo damage dealing drone fleet carrying beast? or was it meant as a gang member that can use several flavours of drones to assist other gang members? the other bc's are more gang assist than solo. just incase the thread actually changed topic in the last few pages i am refering to the gallente tier 2 bc the myr. P.S sorry to pick your post centurin thats just where i gave up reading this thread as it was so repetative.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 00:18:00 - [630] Originally by: Orileus Originally by: Centurin Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 18:48:01 Hell, without a turret damage bonus, I don't think asking for a 3rd wave would be out of line. Man this is insane!! almost every post is "more drone bay!!! dps is to low!!"" arent there other drones out there to?? webby drones, energy neut drones, painter drones? was this bc actually intended to be a solo damage dealing drone fleet carrying beast? or was it meant as a gang member that can use several flavours of drones to assist other gang members? the other bc's are more gang assist than solo. just incase the thread actually changed topic in the last few pages i am refering to the gallente tier 2 bc the myr. P.S sorry to pick your post centurin thats just where i gave up reading this thread as it was so repetative. the drones you brought up need: * More drone bay to field enough to make a difference * Extraneous damage source to merit losing out on the damage Essentially, bringing up the "other drones" for a Gallentean drone ship is like asking an Amarr why he doesn't fit 1400mms on his Armageddon 'cause of the EXP and Kin damage projectiles do. As it stands, the only drone ship that doesn't lose a lot of damage and most of it's bonuses when using utility drones is the Eos. Why? It hasn't got a damage bonus on drones, it's got a huge drone bay, and most of all it's got a solid weapons platform. As for the "other BCs", they are more solo damage ships than the Myrmidon will be - larger drone bay or not. Haven't you noticed that that's the concept of the tier 2s? Oh, and damage drones are fully incapable of providing "nice gang boosts" unless used in mass numbers, many reserves, and several different combinations - in short you need a frickin' huge drone bay for that, too. Need repairs? Sit still and let me launch my repair drones. Doh! I can't fit repair drones, you're out of luck, mate. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?

Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.11.07 00:40:00 - [631] Originally by: Orileus Originally by: Centurin Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 18:48:01 Hell, without a turret damage bonus, I don't think asking for a 3rd wave would be out of line. Man this is insane!! almost every post is "more drone bay!!! dps is to low!!"" arent there other drones out there to?? webby drones, energy neut drones, painter drones? was this bc actually intended to be a solo damage dealing drone fleet carrying beast? or was it meant as a gang member that can use several flavours of drones to assist other gang members? the other bc's are more gang assist than solo. just incase the thread actually changed topic in the last few pages i am refering to the gallente tier 2 bc the myr. P.S sorry to pick your post centurin thats just where i gave up reading this thread as it was so repetative. Sadly you're not completely correct here.. A lot of posts are about 'more drone space' but there are some different reasons for people saying this: - some people would like to see all the tier 2 BC doing similar damage (which tbh would fit in with the ideas ccp seem to be having with them).. with 4 heavy drones (+ bonus) and 5 turrets (no bonus) the myrmi has the lowest dps. With the tanking bonus you won't find many people using gyro's either (let's face it, without a hybrid weapon bonus you'll use projectiles), since the 5 low slots (yeah uber tank my bunny) will be used for tanking .. - most people think it, as a drone boat, should have at least the option to field multiple waves of drones. This is quite reasonable: with missiles being as they are drones die pretty easily. Add to that the hp boost (meaning dps is getting more important and since loads of people can field drones, loads of people will take anti-drone weapons in some form) and it's a safe bet drones will be nice targets during battles. About the other drones: have you actually checked those drones? Webber drones are large and do about 30% webbing strength iso the 70-90% of mods.. They take 25m^2 and are slow as hell.. and quite easy to hit. The other offensive drones are really only useful if you can break the tank with your guns.. Now the maintenance drones could be useful right? It's a BC and could be used as a poor man's command ship .. well if you are off the battlefield why not use the biggest drones available .. oh wait those are 25m^3 aswell.. So you could only take 5 med armour and 5 med shield drones to aid your fleet.. Trust me, a logistics cruiser would be more effective and efficient and cheaper, infact normal cruisers would be better. And let's not even mention the Eos here, with the big drone bay. If a ship has a dmg bonus it's meant for doing dmg, not utterly ignoring the bonus while doing something else. So yes there are different drones .. and yes you could use defender missiles in you cruise missle launchers.. it's just silly. Many have said it with me: If the general consensus is that 5 heavy drones + bonus is too much for a BC then just change the bonus to 'all but heavy drones' or 'scout drones' and just give it 150-200 m^3 in stead of the laughable 100 m^3. - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please
Tonkin Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.07 03:42:00 - [632] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Originally by: Ithildin Shayla Sh'inlux, that is Zixxa you are trying to make sensible arguments with. He/She is like Detaurus - a blantantly obvious reason why these message boards need a block feature. Ignore him/her. Sound advice. And yes, this board needs a block feature. I thought I was still tossing some arguments at Tonkin, but alas, I wasn't and if that's his alt, he's making a fool out of his corp, which is a shame as TMPL are nice guys. However, I'll go ask the BoB ubergods how to play Eve I guess since apparently 2 years of PvP experience make me a nublet all ive said ive said to the guys in my corp and majority do agree. do admit a raven can outdamage any other bs. but it all depends on setup and skills at the end of the day. been testing the drake alot on the test server and peeps are starting to adapt against the drake. maybe me lol only got bc lvl 1 on this mirrior. and btw this is my main i dont post with alts. Sig removed, you sig was too ubber to display and ccp had no choice but to nerf it - CCP(NERFBAT)
Obsidian Hawk Gallente Statler and Waldorf	Posted - 2006.11.07 06:26:00 - [633] My thoughts on the myrmidon. make the drone bay 125 or 150m¦ or add a bonus to hybrid turret damage to make up for the lack of drone space. thats my 2 cents.
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:23:00 - [634] Well so far I like all the BCs, Drake may be not overpowered, but overtanked. All I can say is touch the Hurricane and I'll kill you!!! I love that ship, everything I hoped for! All I have to say.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 09:41:00 - [635] Originally by: Orileus Originally by: Centurin Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 18:48:01 Hell, without a turret damage bonus, I don't think asking for a 3rd wave would be out of line. Man this is insane!! almost every post is "more drone bay!!! dps is to low!!"" arent there other drones out there to?? webby drones, energy neut drones, painter drones? was this bc actually intended to be a solo damage dealing drone fleet carrying beast? or was it meant as a gang member that can use several flavours of drones to assist other gang members? the other bc's are more gang assist than solo. Would it be too much to ask for the people commenting on the Myrmidon to actuallly know something about drone combat? Your post and the (much more clueless) one above with "heavy drones are battleship weapons" painfully illustrates the point. It's like people spouting "why don't you use defender missiles on your Raven!?!!11!" Others have already replied to the salient points, I'll just add that using non-damage drones on a drone boat (one that gets a drone damage bonus) is usually a bad idea. You're cutting your DPS down a lot with each non-damage drone you use. Utility drones are much more useful with boats that don't get a drone damage bonus. Oh, and I'll just repeat for the benefit of the dim: 5 x heavy drones is not all that hot, DPS-wise, when we are in the battlecruiser category. Check the DPS graphs. With 5 heavy drones and 4-5 turrets, the Myrmidon would be fine. Remember that heavy drones are close-range weapons -- while theoretically they give the same DPS from 0 km to the max control range (about 50km usually), in practice they are so slow that using them for anything outside close range is usually a bad idea. Currently the Myrmidon has 6 turrets and a tiny drone bay. It cannot function as a drone battlecruiser with that, since medium drones are simply not adaquate as a primary damage source and relying on 4 heavies is suicidal. Drop it down to 4 turrets and increase drone bay to about 200m3. Done. That's what all us actual Gallente drone pilots are saying. Comments from people with either actual DPS calculations or actual combat experience with drones are welcome.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.07 09:59:00 - [636] Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 05/11/2006 19:21:53 Originally by: Brazero Well, you can't have heavy beams on a Harbinger. And that's the only negative thing I have found with the ship. A little more grid and all is fine. 15001.25=1875 2750.97=1732.5 Remains: 142.5MW Compare it to the Hurricane, 275MW per 720mm II as well but 125MW less from the ship, they get left with a whole 17.5MW... The Hurricane will actually outdamage the Harbinger at all ranges you'd expect to use these guns at, so its not really that much of an advtantage (you'll need an RCU to fit other stuff anyway)... But I can't exactly say that beam fitting is that much of an issue, compared to fitting a full rack of the biggest weapon on other armor-tanked cruiser/BCs. noooo again... 220 vs focused it will outdamage the harbringer under 5km... not at all range and the difference in pg with maxed skills is 1pg it could use a bit more pg (just a bit and not enought to fit heavies) and maybe get a bit more dronebay... but is not true that the hurricane outdamage it at any range Do you even read posts before commenting on them? Read the part where it says beams* again a few times... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:23:00 - [637] I find the lack of dev responses disturbing. We need, or at least would appreciate clarity on the designs, intentions and the developers' view of balance and opinion on the arguments presented. If this is underway in form of a blog, or intended to be presented with changes, my concern is void and I apologise. I would just hate to see most of the new features go through as they are, uncommented. (Although I'm posting in this thread for emphasis, this is meant to address all features in testing) ---
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:12:00 - [638] Originally by: Jin Entres I find the lack of dev responses disturbing. We need, or at least would appreciate clarity on the designs, intentions and the developers' view of balance and opinion on the arguments presented. You and me both. Even though this is an interesting discussion, with no dev input it gets to be more of a monologue. We need to know the design goals for these new ships. For example the now infamous Myrmidon. 1) Is it intended to be a drone ship? If no, then why does it have drones as the only ship damage bonus? If yes, go to next question. 2) Is the intention for it to use medium drones or heavy drones? If medium, why does the ship dps with 5 x medium + 6 turrets fall much, much below the other tier2s? What balances that lost dps? If heavy, then is it really reasonable to have the ship's main weapon be 4 drones, which are failry easy to kill and leave the ship with no spare firepower? The same kind of questions could be asked for the other ships, too, the Myrmidon is just the most obvious problem child here. Along the same vein: why do the new tier3 battleships bar the Rokh duplicate the functionality of existing battleships and roles, instead of opening up new roles? Is that intent or accident? Most of the bs unhappiness seem to be focused on that duplicated functionality, which necessarily leaves one ship or the other as the "worse choice". Devs, any chance of some comments either here or in a blog anytime soon? We need some input.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:09:00 - [639] Originally by: Derran Originally by: Zixxa You lie. And it is uncivilised behaviour. Ravens cannot beat god BS in close up. The word is uncivilized. And yes they can. Torpedoes, anyone? Forget about torpedoes in Kali. Ok? Use cruises. Be happy with damage at the Brutix level. Quote: Originally by: Zixxa Quote: it's more shieldpoints per cap point, You lie again. Get calculator. She probably has a calculator that goes beyond 20 so you should use more than your shoes and socks when adding up the numbers. Probably you also need a simple calculator. Get it, calculate performance. Shut up immediately. Quote: Originally by: Zixxa Good, so EW is not for Caldari. Because only ship to fight we have is Raven. And the Caracal, and the Cerberus, etc, etc. I do not interested in PvE. It is so easy that there is nothing to discuss. We are discussing PvP. Quote: Originally by: Zixxa What is the problem to bring 4 dampeners on battlefield? The penalty becomes very harsh after the 3rd dampener. Not so harsh as you think. Ask about numbers. Quote: Originally by: Zixxa R u dumb? ECM is chance based and it means taht you will be killed if chance will against you. And in PvP you will be killed quite regularly. Dampeners work 100% and Arazu kills BS in 100% cases. Um, riiiiight. And you pierced the BS tank how exactly? And that would be only 1 BS. You clearly have never flown a Rook when the pilot has Recon 5 and using a racial jammer which will make it have 13 points of jamming strength and spread out the jamming, so I am not going to even bother commenting on that beyond this. Looks that you never fight in Rook against real enemy. Your Rook will not save your own ass being jammed by jump in EW Ferox. Using racial jammers is either when your enemy is bot-driver or puregambling. Recon 5 is too expensive for char with only 20-25kk. So recon 4 is more realistic. Quote: You need to learn to read the devblogs. Changes are being made to keep ECM on ECM ships in a way that will get their bonuses changed to keep they similiar, or the same, as they are now. Only non-ew ships will be 'nerfed'. Excuse me, but I did read dev blog. I did ask Tux about nerf. I did check stats in the test. And I see that ECM is just nerfed everywehre. When it will be unnerfed than you will return to discussion, ok? Quote: Maybe she is but I'm not. 7M in missile skills, 17.3M in spaceship. Good. So do you know how useless Raven in fleet battles? Quote: Originally by: Zixxa Quote: Yeh, you're right. Turrets don't have this stat called "signature resolution" on them. It's meaningless indeed. Turrets less vulnerable wtf? Oh, kid, you have to go to PvP kindergarden. I gladly refuse to teach you. Uh, what? That doesn't make any sense. I think the point Looks that I am speaking to noob. Chance to hit 200 m target with 400 resolution for guns is approximately 80%. I.e. damage decreased at 25%(approximately ). For Missile damage is decreased at 50%. Missiles are heavy penalized by target size, guns are easily penalized. Do you follow me?
Jenobi	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:46:00 - [640] I've tested the Huricane, Drake , and Harbinger.(i havent found a use for Gallente ships yet :s) The Drake ROCKS the Huricane is awesome and the harbinger is nice too the drake so easilly went through so many targets i still cant believe it. needless to say it will replace the Sleipnir in my hanger. my 2 cents for a change would be if the drake needs to loose tank to be on par with command ships how about a bonus that would nulifi the negative cap recharge bonus for heavy assault missile launcher t2s

triny	Posted - 2006.11.07 15:22:00 - [641] I have tried the drake and the Myrmidan. As for the Myrmidan i agree with most ppl that it needs an increase in dronebay seeing it's a droneboat and doesn't do enough damage as is. It does have a nice tank tho. The Drake is another story For this ship the heavy assault missile launchers come ingame. It packs a very hard punch ONCE IN RANGE, cause the missiles only have a range off 15k. So basically you need to fit a MWD. Any1 tried a fitting with that ?? pretty hard to keep the damage and the tank. You can fit an ab with the tank and the launchers, but then it takes ages to get to yer target. So tbh i dunno what ppl are complaining about it is to strong. On test the skills for the assault launchers are maxed out to so it doesn't give an real figure. If tank goes then so does the ship, cause there's no way you can kill a target that's 60k away from you without it (using assault launchers i mean). Heavy launchers yes, but then you can't fit the 8th slot so something is gotta give.
Obsidian Hawk Gallente Statler and Waldorf	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:46:00 - [642] After some further testing of the myrmidon. I think 150 drone bay should be the max. otherwise with a lot of the proposed changes it would just be a giant vexor. I have both drone and gunnery skills and using them in good conjunction with each other, the myrmidon is a pretty powerful ship. The big thing to remember with this ship is. dont rely on drones for 100% of your damage. the turret slots are there for a reason. Look at the Dominix it is both a good drone and hybrid ship. Same with the Eos and Vexor. I am a gallente pilot. When my guns fail then i use drones, but then again i rarely miss.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:05:00 - [643] Give it less pg, 4 turret slots, and 250m3. If it was supposed to use turrets and be like a Vexor or Domi, it should have a hybrid bonus as those ships do. The tanking/drone bonus tells me it's supposed to do damage with drones while outlasting opponents.
Lobo Noturno	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:29:00 - [644] Only problem I saw with drake on testing is that it was too easy to fit, if you already had the skills for a proper passive tank fitting on the ferox. I could fit all the shield extender modules, 7 heavy missile launchers and the pdus/bcu. It's too neat, compared to the compromisses other ships have to make to work properly.(Ferox, for example, can't fit enough) I would risk saying that taking a little bit of pg out would be beneficial for balance. Right now, it can fit full offense(heavu missiles, not assault) and full passive tank without breaking a sweat. on the other two BCs, i havent' tested the harbringer, but the hurricane works really well. The Myrmiddon needs fixing. It needs about 200m of drone bay. Perhaps ccp could reduce the drone bonus a little bit and let us have the fifth heavy drone and replacements. We don't need more drones for more dps, we need more drones to sustain dps a little longer... Otherwise, the bonuses work well and the fitting is not easy nor impossible. Allan
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:46:00 - [645] Originally by: Lobo Noturno The Myrmiddon needs fixing. It needs about 200m of drone bay. Perhaps ccp could reduce the drone bonus a little bit and let us have the fifth heavy drone and replacements. We don't need more drones for more dps, we need more drones to sustain dps a little longer... Otherwise, the bonuses work well and the fitting is not easy nor impossible. Allan Just reduce the number of turrets, it's the easiest fix. With 4 turrets (remove 2) and 200m3 drone bay, this ship would be fine (and be balanced with the others).
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:26:00 - [646] Originally by: Zixxa Forget about torpedoes in Kali. Ok? Use cruises. Be happy with damage at the Brutix level. Why? They exist to be used. Just because you don't choose to use them doesn't make them any less effective against a battleship. Originally by: Zixxa Probably you also need a simple calculator. Get it, calculate performance. Shut up immediately. sigh How many armor repping skills and modules are there? Very few. The hardwire implants aren't all that effective and one of the best ones isn't even in the game. Shield boosting has a skill that reduces cap, the boost interval is a hell of a lot faster than armor repping, and there is a module that can increase your shield boosting amount by 35% if you use the basic one and more if you happen to put multiples on your ship. Plus there is those faction implants. Perhaps you should explain exactly how armor repping is more efficient again without any of those benefits besides the faction implant? Originally by: Zixxa Looks that you never fight in Rook against real enemy. Your Rook will not save your own ass being jammed by jump in EW Ferox. Using racial jammers is either when your enemy is bot-driver or puregambling. Recon 5 is too expensive for char with only 20-25kk. So recon 4 is more realistic. Sure it will since the Ferox doesn't have the range a Rook has with ECM. Plus after Kali, a Ferox won't have near the jamming strength even a Blackbird would have. Perhaps you should go to SISI and really think about the changes. All Caldari ECM ships have a boost in their ship bonus amounts and jammers have had reduced strength. An EW Ferox won't be nearly as effective after Kali. And Caldari ECM ships already have a high jamming strength. And if you want numbers, a blackbird on sisi right now with a basic jammer and 2 ECM boosting low slot mods gives you roughly 6 jamming strength, the T2 version or best named is 7. A blackbird also has a sensor strength of 20. A ferox has 19, but then it is a bigger ship. So while the blackbird would have a 37% chance per jammer to jam the Ferox, the Ferox may as well just give up because it has A) a longer target time and B) much less than half of the same chance to jam the Blackbird. Originally by: Zixxa Excuse me, but I did read dev blog. I did ask Tux about nerf. I did check stats in the test. And I see that ECM is just nerfed everywehre. When it will be unnerfed than you will return to discussion, ok? Maybe he didn't understand you because I know what each word you said means but when you put them all together, it doesn't make any sense, so no you aren't excused. Only ECM target jammers got hit. The caldari ships specializing in target jamming got an increase in strength to make up for some of the loss. What exactly are YOU talking about? Originally by: Zixxa Looks that I am speaking to noob. Chance to hit 200 m target with 400 resolution for guns is approximately 80%. I.e. damage decreased at 25%(approximately ). For Missile damage is decreased at 50%. Missiles are heavy penalized by target size, guns are easily penalized. Do you follow me? Only if you are talking into a mirror since I have been playing since May 2003 when the game released and before that into beta. When exactly is the last time you used a rail, artillery or beam laser with an optimal range of 10k or more that is already using the most range penalizing ammo and still hit a target with 80% accuracy that is orbitting you as close as possible at its top speed? Never going to happen. So how exactly do you compensate for the fact that missiles never miss its target and are effective at long and short ranges? You reduce the damage, further reducing it depending on the size of the missile much the same as a large gun. You want to hit a smaller target, use smaller weapons.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:33:00 - [647] Originally by: Derran No no no! You're feeding the troll! Originally by: Zixxa Looks that I am speaking to noob. Chance to hit 200 m target with 400 resolution for guns is approximately 80%. I.e. damage decreased at 25%(approximately ). For Missile damage is decreased at 50%. Missiles are heavy penalized by target size, guns are easily penalized. Do you follow me? No, in the example, the turret's tracking is penalized by 50%. If the the turret and the target isn't moving, the hit chance is 100%. If the turret or target is moving, the effect of the movement is doubled. It's very situational, in one case the turret isn't penalized by the ship size at all, while in the other case it is penalized a lot harder that the missile. In effect, it might mean the difference between some damage and no damage at all - the turret does 0% damage and the missile on the same target does 50% damage. Turret tracking isn't linear - it's situational. Doh! I did the same mistake! - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Obsidian Hawk Gallente Statler and Waldorf	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:43:00 - [648] Guys if you really want a drone bay that big, just get an Eos..... Remember the myrmidon is to teach hotshot pilots not to charge into battle, it is meant for long range with drone support. So get some gunnery skills and learn to use T2 scout drones, of maybe mix up your drone bay a little and try not to rely on 1 type of drone. Try 2 heavies and 3 medium scouts. It's called strategy try to make the best of what you have, or use rigs and drone upgrades. Thats what they are there fore. I only say this because it seems everyone is only using heavy drones and not trying out different setups or new ideas. Since the myrmidon gets no bonuses for turrets, try mixing up what turrets you put on there. Try putting on some lasers or projectile turrets. That is the beauty of the myrmidon it is very dynamic. So now kids go out there and re-evaluate your fittings. Quit using the same overused strategy over and over.
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:59:00 - [649] Please, fly the ship before giving advise. Peplle complain because the myrm DPS is low compared to the other battlecrusers and if we fit heavies they are popped fast. By the way, i found a way of using heavyes and to do decent dps, tank turret ships and protect my drones at the same time. Just fit nos and bump the other ship to death, you don't need a scrambler and if the other ships targets your drones you just scoop and deploy again. Killed a couple of battleships in that setup. However, i still think that a bigger drone bay, LESS grid and one more low slot would make this ship better and still balanced.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:35:00 - [650] Originally by: Ithildin No, in the example, the turret's tracking is penalized by 50%. If the the turret and the target isn't moving, the hit chance is 100%. If the turret or target is moving, the effect of the movement is doubled. It's very situational, in one case the turret isn't penalized by the ship size at all, while in the other case it is penalized a lot harder that the missile. In effect, it might mean the difference between some damage and no damage at all - the turret does 0% damage and the missile on the same target does 50% damage. Turret tracking isn't linear - it's situational. Doh! I did the same mistake! Does this stunt work both ways? i.e. if you shoot something bigger than your sig res, do you get a tracking bonus? If it's going to be fuzzy math, might as well be fuzzy both ways. ---------------------------- Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected]) I tried?

Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:09:00 - [651] Originally by: Nicocat Originally by: Ithildin No, in the example, the turret's tracking is penalized by 50%. If the the turret and the target isn't moving, the hit chance is 100%. If the turret or target is moving, the effect of the movement is doubled. It's very situational, in one case the turret isn't penalized by the ship size at all, while in the other case it is penalized a lot harder that the missile. In effect, it might mean the difference between some damage and no damage at all - the turret does 0% damage and the missile on the same target does 50% damage. Turret tracking isn't linear - it's situational. Doh! I did the same mistake! Does this stunt work both ways? i.e. if you shoot something bigger than your sig res, do you get a tracking bonus? If it's going to be fuzzy math, might as well be fuzzy both ways. Yes. If you get a Taranis with railguns and orbit an Apoc at point blank you'll notice you get a lot better hits than if you orbit an empty shuttle at point blank. BUT. You don't get better hits as such, your hit chance get a lot better, meaning you inflict 100% damage when orbiting at silly close ranges. So, the lesson is: Tracking is your chance to hit, not your damage. Your chance to hit can (effectively) be more than 100% and less than 0%, but you won't ever do more than 100% or less than 0% damage. Tracking only affects the average damage over time negatively and only if the hit chance is less than 100%. There is one more specific case - the inside of the barn. When you are 0m from a target, the slightest movement translates into massive relative movement vectors. You can not hit the inside of a barn in EVE, because the barn is moving too fast for your guns to track - even though over the course of a few years it'll have moved less than an inch. It's mathematics, and mathematics goes silly when dividing by 0. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Peppy LePew	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:03:00 - [652] Originally by: Lobo Noturno Only problem I saw with drake on testing is that it was too easy to fit, if you already had the skills for a proper passive tank fitting on the ferox. I could fit all the shield extender modules, 7 heavy missile launchers and the pdus/bcu. It's too neat, compared to the compromisses other ships have to make to work properly.(Ferox, for example, can't fit enough) I would risk saying that taking a little bit of pg out would be beneficial for balance. Right now, it can fit full offense(heavu missiles, not assault) and full passive tank without breaking a sweat. on the other two BCs, i havent' tested the harbringer, but the hurricane works really well. The Myrmiddon needs fixing. It needs about 200m of drone bay. Perhaps ccp could reduce the drone bonus a little bit and let us have the fifth heavy drone and replacements. We don't need more drones for more dps, we need more drones to sustain dps a little longer... Otherwise, the bonuses work well and the fitting is not easy nor impossible. Allan Passive tank is weak and only viable for PvE combat.It's probably not even truely passive, if you are using hardeners. Remove some PG?? It has LESS than the Ferox already, how is it easier to fit? Anyway, heavy missiles are NOT "full offense" IMO.. it can't afford to fit the GOOD weapons and still have that tank, because it needs the MWD and possibly even webs to use them properly. Normal Heavies are weak!! One thing I think is particularly strange about your suggestion: isn't the concept of a "passive tank" to have a weaker but viable option to tank with (for PvE only!!) easier fitting requirements?? I always thought this was the case so I still so no problem with doing so...
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:12:00 - [653] Originally by: Lobo Noturno Only problem I saw with drake on testing is that it was too easy to fit, if you already had the skills for a proper passive tank fitting on the ferox. I could fit all the shield extender modules, 7 heavy missile launchers and the pdus/bcu. It's too neat, compared to the compromisses other ships have to make to work properly.(Ferox, for example, can't fit enough) I would risk saying that taking a little bit of pg out would be beneficial for balance. Right now, it can fit full offense(heavu missiles, not assault) and full passive tank without breaking a sweat. on the other two BCs, i havent' tested the harbringer, but the hurricane works really well. The Myrmiddon needs fixing. It needs about 200m of drone bay. Perhaps ccp could reduce the drone bonus a little bit and let us have the fifth heavy drone and replacements. We don't need more drones for more dps, we need more drones to sustain dps a little longer... Otherwise, the bonuses work well and the fitting is not easy nor impossible. Allan Actually if anything it needs more grid, I have good fitting skills but 7 tech 2 ham and a microwarp pretty much took out all my grid right there... Overall I think it's about right now I have flown it - although i really shows up how weak the ferox is! Zarch AlDain
Tricit Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:36:00 - [654] Myr:switch out current bonus to +10% bonus do everything on drones? 120m3 Drone bay :-D
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:07:00 - [655] Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 08/11/2006 01:08:30 Originally by: Tricit Myr:switch out current bonus to +10% bonus do everything on drones? 120m3 Drone bay :-D Excellent Suggestion, 200m might be a bit much... given how many spares you would be able to carry but 120 would give stupid people the chance to carry 5 heavys and get owned by small fast ships, or those with the knowledge of how incredibly oversized drone sig radius's are. Smarter players would be able to carry enough heavy/medium/light drones to face most challenges. Well a pure drone boat would be nice since we're getting a drone fix soon (tm) for all the crazy things that are wrong with drones right now, although the myr might be able to almost compete for damage or tank with other bcs, it is a tier 2 bc and will therefore be more expensive(?) so maybe it shouldnt suck. Guns on a drone boat... the thought sickens me, its all about immobilising your opponent and jamming/tanking the damage they dish out, a lot of people cry about the ecm/nos setup but even without the ecm most caldari will still warp away before you get in range (I normally see caracals flee my cruisers at about 25-30km before i can warp disrupt) so really the caldari claim to fame with ecm is a little dodgy, they dont use it and they dont need it. Sensor damps on drone boats is a stupid idea, you need to be close to your target to really get the loving on, so unless you plan to reduce their range 100% you probably shouldnt bother. After all, they will simply turn on your drones if they cant hit you. The storyline says that caldari addapted gallente drone tech to make missles and became the missle *****s of the galaxy... but at what point did the gallente addapt ECM into.. umm? qaufe? Im interested to see how the ecm changes will screw around with current setups, i'd be happy to lose 1 low slot and most of my mediums (we all need AB, web, scram after all...) for some lovely EW in kali.... we'll have to see how hard everyone else has been nerfed in this expansion, sadly it will probably be a year before it all gets balanced out and caldari are even with everyone else again. Feel free to post your best caldari are not teh pwn, we need to pwn more just to be fair rant here, or explain how caldari in the storyline have the most powerful navy, so its only fair they have i-win buttons at there disposal.
Obsidian Hawk Gallente Statler and Waldorf	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:42:00 - [656] Edited by: Obsidian Hawk on 08/11/2006 01:46:19 Originally by: Aphotic Raven Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 08/11/2006 01:08:30 Originally by: Tricit Myr:switch out current bonus to +10% bonus do everything on drones? 120m3 Drone bay :-D Excellent Suggestion, 200m might be a bit much... given how many spares you would be able to carry but 120 would give stupid people the chance to carry 5 heavys and get owned by small fast ships, or those with the knowledge of how incredibly oversized drone sig radius's are. Smarter players would be able to carry enough heavy/medium/light drones to face most challenges. You are my new best friend. Personally i have been using my myrm like your despription. 2 heavies for the big guys and 5 mediums for the little ones. It just takes some extra effort to coordinate them all properly. But dont forget though that there are drone rigs too which will help with the battling.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:20:00 - [657] Edited by: madaluap on 08/11/2006 08:22:33 Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 08/11/2006 01:08:30 Originally by: Tricit Myr:switch out current bonus to +10% bonus do everything on drones? 120m3 Drone bay :-D Quote: Excellent Suggestion, 200m might be a bit much... given how many spares you would be able to carry but 120 would give stupid people the chance to carry 5 heavys and get owned by small fast ships, or those with the knowledge of how incredibly oversized drone sig radius's are. Stupid people? a heavy drone is 25m3 dumbass, so that would be 125m3 and no to that btw Quote: Smarter players would be able to carry enough heavy/medium/light drones to face most challenges. Enough is 5 of each, so 125m3+50m3+25m3 = 200m3 atleast Quote: Guns on a drone boat... the thought sickens me, its all about immobilising your opponent and jamming/tanking the damage they dish out, a lot of people cry about the ecm/nos setup but even without the ecm most caldari will still warp away before you get in range (I normally see caracals flee my cruisers at about 25-30km before i can warp disrupt) so really the caldari claim to fame with ecm is a little dodgy, they dont use it and they dont need it. Droneships arent about immobilising and the terrible jammingsystem, also nossing your enemies cap death isnt something a droneboat should feature all the time. about that warping away, do you realise if you cant scram them, they cant scram you? Besides caldari dont deal that awesome dps atm. Might change with heavy assault. Quote: Sensor damps on drone boats is a stupid idea, you need to be close to your target to really get the loving on, so unless you plan to reduce their range 100% you probably shouldnt bother. After all, they will simply turn on your drones if they cant hit you. The storyline says that caldari addapted gallente drone tech to make missles and became the missle ****s of the galaxy... but at what point did the gallente addapt ECM into.. umm? qaufe? Sensor damps is the* best idea. You say that enemies warp off out of scram range, well put 1-2 damp on them and see them coming into 5 km range. It forces the enemy into your blasterrange or nosrange whatever. And how are they gonna turn on your drones when you are sitting 1 k away from them because they need to be close. Might aswell ad a tracking disrupter there. Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2006.11.08 10:24:00 - [658] For the Myr (of course ) Perhaps a negative modifier to hybrid turret damage and as big a scout drone bonus as it takes to compensate. Simple but effective, the model requires 6 turrets and CCP don't seem to want this ship fitting heavies for some reason. CCP can do the math, but ths fits in with the ship description, can be tweaked without major changes, and can be explained by transferring energy from the weapons to the drone control systems. That said I dont know squat about ship fittings (Ive never really entered competetive PvP so as long as the ship does what I need it for its all god) so feel free to point out that this is a ridiculous idea. If its not could someone run the numbers?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:01:00 - [659] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf For the Myr (of course ) Perhaps a negative modifier to hybrid turret damage and as big a scout drone bonus as it takes to compensate. If the ship hasn't got any bonuses to hybrids the optimal weapons to use is either lasers for damage or projectiles for capacitor use. The only ones who will put hybrids on the Myrmidon are those without skills in the other turrets OR who have a sense of propriety. In order for the Myrmidon to be effective, it really needs the drone bay and bonus to equal 5 +10%/level heavy drones. To "boost scout drones as much as it takes to compensate" will only severely unbalance the ship against interceptors since to get scout drones to the correct level would require a 30 to 50 per cent bonus - depending on how well the ship accommodates medium scout drones. Simply put, the one and only thing that is in need of a change is to reduce turrets and increase drone bay by +200%. It's that simple. Heavy drones are cruiser sized weapons (cruiser optimized tracking, speed, and damage), after all - were it not that the ships tend to use other weapons as well (which the Myrmidon DOES NOT) 4 turrets, 300 metric drone bay, and the ship will compare much better to it's peers. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:21:00 - [660] Originally by: Ithildin Simply put, the one and only thing that is in need of a change is to reduce turrets and increase drone bay by +200%. It's that simple. Heavy drones are cruiser sized weapons (cruiser optimized tracking, speed, and damage), after all - were it not that the ships tend to use other weapons as well (which the Myrmidon DOES NOT) Exactly. We don't need weird new nonstandard bonuses or anything fancy. Drop a few turrets, give it a reasonable drone bay (200+), and it should be fine. Since drones are the primary weapon of this ship (the only weapon it gets bonuses for), it needs to be actually able to use them and have some spares. And since medium drones simply do not have enough damage output for the battlecruiser class, it needs heavies. Compensate the 5th new drone DPS by dropping two turrets, as a result the DPS now fits right in with the other tier2 bcs. Simple. Giving extra bonuses to medium drones for this ship would make them horribly overpowered vs smaller ships. Do you really want to see something with the speed and tracking of a med drone doing near-heavy-drone damage? The simple fix is the best.

Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:37:00 - [661] Originally by: Derran Why? They exist to be used. Just because you don't choose to use them doesn't make them any less effective against a battleship. Beacuse you gimp your setup and gets too low return. Cruisers heavy will be more effective or at least comparable with t1 torps. Quote: Originally by: Zixxa Probably you also need a simple calculator. Get it, calculate performance. Shut up immediately. sigh How many armor repping skills and modules are there? Very few. The hardwire implants aren't all that effective and one of the best ones isn't even in the game. Shield boosting has a skill that reduces cap, the boost interval is a hell of a lot faster than armor repping, and there is a module that can increase your shield boosting amount by 35% if you use the basic one and more if you happen to put multiples on your ship. Plus there is those faction implants. Perhaps you should explain exactly how armor repping is more efficient again without any of those benefits besides the faction implant? Forget about faction implants, faction shield boosters, etc. We are about PvP, where usage of expensive modules is bad idea. When we have t2 reppers/boosters we have better armour/cap than shield/cap. Always everywehere in any reasonable setup. And comparable amount of boosting/repping(boosting, afair, minimally better) when we are using XL t2+amplifier against double L t2 repperes. In Kali gaps between armour tanked and shield tank will increased more, because of 50% increase if HP.(Armour plates have much more HP than shield extenders). Quote: Only ECM target jammers got hit. The caldari ships specializing in target jamming got an increase in strength to make up for some of the loss. What exactly are YOU talking about? Do you have screenshot from the Sisi about it? Or at least text in ship description? Quote: Only if you are talking into a mirror since I have been playing since May 2003 when the game released and before that into beta. Just test it. Ok? Noob is not your employment time, but your personal knowledge and skills.
Pralay Gallente AFK	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:04:00 - [662] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Meh. The new slot layout is better than the old, but still... we wanted less guns and more drone bay, and got exactly the opposite. This should be a drone ship, not some half-assed drone/blaster combo that has trouble in both areas. There already are 2 dedicated drone ships, it would be nice to have a mixed turret/drone ship option. Pralay
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:21:00 - [663] Originally by: Pralay Originally by: Alex Harumichi Meh. The new slot layout is better than the old, but still... we wanted less guns and more drone bay, and got exactly the opposite. This should be a drone ship, not some half-assed drone/blaster combo that has trouble in both areas. There already are 2 dedicated drone ships, it would be nice to have a mixed turret/drone ship option. Well, the current Myrmidon is neither. It gets no gun bonuses (while funny enough the Vexor and Dom, the real drone ships, do), so it's not really a turret ship. It's also not a workable drone ship, since using mediums gimps the damage output and using heavies is semi-suicidal (no spares). So it's the worst of both worlds, currently.
Katabrok First Caldari Asguard Security Service Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:42:00 - [664] Ok, thats how I see things: The devs said that the new BCs would be gankers, while the old BCs would be the tankers. In the gallente case, the tier 1 BC, the Brutix, is the only tier 1 BC thats a real ganker. The Myrmidon isn't a ganker, so why dont we do this: Myrmidon becomes the new tier 1 BC, and we give it a 200 m3 drone bay. Its dps would be on the same clas as the dps from the other tier 1 BCs, and it would have space for drone replacements. The Brutix should be the tier 2 BC, and it only needs a little boost in PG and CPU, lets say 300 more PG and 50 more CPU. What do you say? Katabrok, the space barbarian. I want the The Correct DreadÖ!!!!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:40:00 - [665] Where would you place the Brutix' new slots? One goes in high along with a turret and the other goes where? Mid or low? Oh, and it'd also mean you'd have to come up with a suitable second bonus as well. Can't have a tanking bonus on the Brutix then, can we? - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Grinkur Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:45:00 - [666] Originally by: Ithildin Where would you place the Brutix' new slots? One goes in high along with a turret and the other goes where? Mid or low? Oh, and it'd also mean you'd have to come up with a suitable second bonus as well. Can't have a tanking bonus on the Brutix then, can we? Low, for a MFS II
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:48:00 - [667] Originally by: Zixxa Forget about faction implants, faction shield boosters, etc. We are about PvP, where usage of expensive modules is bad idea. When we have t2 reppers/boosters we have better armour/cap than shield/cap. Always everywehere in any reasonable setup. And comparable amount of boosting/repping(boosting, afair, minimally better) when we are using XL t2+amplifier against double L t2 repperes. In Kali gaps between armour tanked and shield tank will increased more, because of 50% increase if HP.(Armour plates have much more HP than shield extenders). Maybe look at the advantages and not only the disadvantages? For a heavy tank (aka dual rep or oversized SB + SBA) both tanks do pretty much the same thing, as you said. IMO a slight imbalanced of the shieldtanker having a better capeffeciency there (assuming shield comp lvl 3 or higher) AND having a better rep/second, but it's nothing major. For a light tank, yes, armortank has a better capeffeciency. But guess what, a shieldtank has an advantage, too. It repairs more per second than the armortank. For a single slot with same size modules it's armortank: better capeffeciency and worse rep/second and shieldtank: worse capefficiency and better rep/second. For plates vs extenders the main problem is that there are no oversized extenders, but there are oversized plates. On the other hand the same thing in reverse is true for armor reps vs shield boosts. There are XL SBs, but not XLARs. Same as above, both tanking options have advantages in one erae and disadvantages in another. Quote: Do you have screenshot from the Sisi about it? Or at least text in ship description? Rook bonus got increased from 10% to 20% per lvl for example. Add 2 of the new ECM damage mods in the lows and a max skilled rook will have 94% of it's current jamming power. And only a paperthin tank of cource, but tux pretty much said that ECM ships are supposed to have that. Can't keep the cake and eat it.
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:26:00 - [668] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk Edited by: Obsidian Hawk on 08/11/2006 01:46:19 Originally by: Aphotic Raven Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 08/11/2006 01:08:30 Originally by: Tricit Myr:switch out current bonus to +10% bonus do everything on drones? 120m3 Drone bay :-D Excellent Suggestion, 200m might be a bit much... given how many spares you would be able to carry but 120 would give stupid people the chance to carry 5 heavys and get owned by small fast ships, or those with the knowledge of how incredibly oversized drone sig radius's are. Smarter players would be able to carry enough heavy/medium/light drones to face most challenges. You are my new best friend. Personally i have been using my myrm like your despription. 2 heavies for the big guys and 5 mediums for the little ones. It just takes some extra effort to coordinate them all properly. But dont forget though that there are drone rigs too which will help with the battling. You do know that the 'smart' player who is using med's is only doing a tad more damage than a Vexor..... right? Myrmidon NEEDS heavies to even compete in damage with the other BC's and even then it still does less.
Katabrok First Caldari Asguard Security Service Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:55:00 - [669] Edited by: Katabrok First on 08/11/2006 17:59:43 Edited by: Katabrok First on 08/11/2006 17:59:02 Originally by: Ithildin Where would you place the Brutix' new slots? One goes in high along with a turret and the other goes where? Mid or low? Oh, and it'd also mean you'd have to come up with a suitable second bonus as well. Can't have a tanking bonus on the Brutix then, can we? The low slot? And the tanking bonus is an active tank bonus, not a passive. Didn't any of the other other tier 2 have a tank bonus? It makes sense to be repping while you fly to your target. Or we could add ROF. Think the dps then. Thats my .02 cents. Katabrok, the space barbarian. I want the The Correct DreadÖ!!!!
Nonoffensive Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.08 18:33:00 - [670] Edited by: Nonoffensive on 08/11/2006 18:33:27 Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Myrmidon NEEDS heavies to even compete in damage with the other BC's and even then it still does less. This cannot be stressed enough. I got a chance to test the Myrmidon on the test server finally and I wasn't very impressed. It only has one more turret effective DPS than the vexor which means you pretty much have to NOS to win because you can't break a decent tank. In the process I would routinely lose all my spare drones even while micro managing them. Thats about 10 mil in lost ISK per fight using hammerhead 2's. Do you want a ship that costs 10 mil to win a fight? So blasters and 5x heavies do more dps? So what. T2 blaster ammo is getting nerfed and you have to be inside 3-5km to even fight in falloff. A graph posted earlier in this thread showed the Myr holding the highest dps only under 2km. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.08 18:40:00 - [671] Originally by: Aramendel Quote: Do you have screenshot from the Sisi about it? Or at least text in ship description? Rook bonus got increased from 10% to 20% per lvl for example. Add 2 of the new ECM damage mods in the lows and a max skilled rook will have 94% of it's current jamming power. And only a paperthin tank of cource, but tux pretty much said that ECM ships are supposed to have that. Can't keep the cake and eat it. I.e. ECM is nerfed to be unusable... I am not stupid to train for 5 recon I have now 2.41.8 = 4.32 I have before 4.81.4 = 6.72 5 recon have now 2.42 = 4.8 5 recon have before 4.81.5 = 7.2 I.e. I lost 36% of the sensor strength for recon 4 and 33% for recon 5. To compensate this loss I need 2 low slot ECM stabilizers. TWO!!! And no ONE spare FREE SLOT for Rook. Do you think I as Rook pilot could fly without LOW SLOTs? Without Nano, without caprelay? And, please, do not tell me more that ECM is nerfed only on non-ECM ship. It is pure false. P.S. Please calc effectivity of shield boosting and armour repping and do not bother me more.
Lobo Noturno	Posted - 2006.11.08 19:18:00 - [672] Peppy, A passive tank is certainly a PVE configuration. The problem is that it was already too powerfull before the Drake.(have you ever used a Ferox with 5 heavys on lvl3 missions? 200% better than any of the other BCs) The Drake, due to the extra missile slots, can fit 7 heavy launchers + 4 tech2 large extenders + 2 tech2 invul + PDU2s(which increase shield capacity and recharge and give the extra pg) and a BCU(without rigs...). It has a bonus for missile dps the ferox didn't had, the passive tank is monstruously big(27k+) and the recharge rate at peak is similar to a large booster running full time. It is not a total BS owner, but it's ages above the other BCs. And the damage with 7 launchers + rof bonus is quite excelent. Add 5 small drones for frigates... I just feel it's too easy to config it like that. Sure, a higher damage version can be made, but passive tanks AND HAMs are not doable.(range issues) Zarch, HAMs require several active components, so the config of the drake gets very different when using them. I realy believe HAM are NOT the ideal weapon for the Drake, given it flies like a brick... My suggestion to drop some PG is to limit the passive tank config, which does not rely on HAMs, and is easibly doable right now with reasonable fitting skills. Lobo
Patric Murphy Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.08 19:44:00 - [673] When talking about the drake and the diferences in shild/armor tanking, a lot of people are forgeting one very important thing. Any utility mod that is going to let a Drake reach or hold onto a target takes away from its tank. Yes, that is why sheild tanking ships have more mids, but good shild tanks are directly efected by having to fit AB/MWD, webers, scrams, and all these are neaded for PVP. No, i cant spell, Yes, i have an education. Please try to keep your responses related to what I said, not the typo's.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.08 19:44:00 - [674] Originally by: Lobo Noturno Peppy, A passive tank is certainly a PVE configuration. The problem is that it was already too powerfull before the Drake.(have you ever used a Ferox with 5 heavys on lvl3 missions? 200% better than any of the other BCs) The Drake, due to the extra missile slots, can fit 7 heavy launchers + 4 tech2 large extenders + 2 tech2 invul + PDU2s(which increase shield capacity and recharge and give the extra pg) and a BCU(without rigs...). It has a bonus for missile dps the ferox didn't had, the passive tank is monstruously big(27k+) and the recharge rate at peak is similar to a large booster running full time. It is not a total BS owner, but it's ages above the other BCs. And the damage with 7 launchers + rof bonus is quite excelent. Add 5 small drones for frigates... I just feel it's too easy to config it like that. Sure, a higher damage version can be made, but passive tanks AND HAMs are not doable.(range issues) Zarch, HAMs require several active components, so the config of the drake gets very different when using them. I realy believe HAM are NOT the ideal weapon for the Drake, given it flies like a brick... My suggestion to drop some PG is to limit the passive tank config, which does not rely on HAMs, and is easibly doable right now with reasonable fitting skills. Lobo Possibly, although it flies less like a brick than the ferox used to at least :p If the grid is reduced on the Drake then so does the fitting requirement on HAMs - to be honest I am still not convinced it is overpowered though. Passive tanks are not really that strong - you are making too much of the shield hp given it has been increased by 50% in Kali and the ferox has more grid than the drake does. Zarch AlDain
Obsidian Hawk Gallente Statler and Waldorf	Posted - 2006.11.08 21:07:00 - [675] here's a question. is everyone using their ships for pvp? it seems like everyone is just pvping with ships and not doing pve. or has anyone tried mixing up rigs with upgrades. honestly lets all stop complaining and keep trying lots of other stuff. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. There is more to life than pvp, there are missions and complexes. And since the ships have all been changed once already i doubt they will change them again. Don't be greedy work with what you have.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:15:00 - [676] NPCs are stupid, easy to defeat. Certain ships make defeating NPCs a cakewalk, such as the Drake. People are discussing PvP exclusively because people are less stupid. I mean, they're still very unintelligent, but at least they try to exploit your weaknesses. And a side effect of PvP is that if one side wins, there's always the other side that loses. Thus it has to be balanced and everyone must have a chance (provided they actually fit to exploit player's weaknesses). But if you really want us to discuss PvE, there's only one thing to say: nerf the Raven and nerf the Drake even more. I don't say that, though, because I don't care about PvE balance. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Tricit Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:27:00 - [677] Edited by: Tricit on 08/11/2006 22:32:29 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf For the Myr (of course ) Perhaps a negative modifier to hybrid turret damage and as big a scout drone bonus as it takes to compensate. If the ship hasn't got any bonuses to hybrids the optimal weapons to use is either lasers for damage or projectiles for capacitor use. The only ones who will put hybrids on the Myrmidon are those without skills in the other turrets OR who have a sense of propriety. In order for the Myrmidon to be effective, it really needs the drone bay and bonus to equal 5 +10%/level heavy drones. To "boost scout drones as much as it takes to compensate" will only severely unbalance the ship against interceptors since to get scout drones to the correct level would require a 30 to 50 per cent bonus - depending on how well the ship accommodates medium scout drones. Simply put, the one and only thing that is in need of a change is to reduce turrets and increase drone bay by +200%. It's that simple. Heavy drones are cruiser sized weapons (cruiser optimized tracking, speed, and damage), after all - were it not that the ships tend to use other weapons as well (which the Myrmidon DOES NOT) 4 turrets, 300 metric drone bay, and the ship will compare much better to it's peers. Being able to carry 1 of each level of offensive drones isn't quite strong, but it is a bit more unstable in terms of balance with respect to my proposal. Mine proposal would allow the ship to become an awsome reuse of all types of drones, as well as hyped up ones. Such bonuses would be 50% speed to the drones, 50% tracking, 50% damage, 50% strength on EW drones, 50% webbing ability, 50% activation range, 50% use range, 50% EVERYTHING at level 5. However, YOUR modifier would basically stear the BC balance more into a LOL TANK OR GANK WE PICK! LOLzozlO!1111 Of course, that is all you know, being Gallente. Do not try to deny it!
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:48:00 - [678] Myrmidon=15% drone dmg per level? Wouldnt that solve the problem of it being no more powerful than a vexor..... Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 23:01:00 - [679] Originally by: Tricit Edited by: Tricit on 08/11/2006 22:32:29 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf For the Myr (of course ) Perhaps a negative modifier to hybrid turret damage and as big a scout drone bonus as it takes to compensate. If the ship hasn't got any bonuses to hybrids the optimal weapons to use is either lasers for damage or projectiles for capacitor use. The only ones who will put hybrids on the Myrmidon are those without skills in the other turrets OR who have a sense of propriety. In order for the Myrmidon to be effective, it really needs the drone bay and bonus to equal 5 +10%/level heavy drones. To "boost scout drones as much as it takes to compensate" will only severely unbalance the ship against interceptors since to get scout drones to the correct level would require a 30 to 50 per cent bonus - depending on how well the ship accommodates medium scout drones. Simply put, the one and only thing that is in need of a change is to reduce turrets and increase drone bay by +200%. It's that simple. Heavy drones are cruiser sized weapons (cruiser optimized tracking, speed, and damage), after all - were it not that the ships tend to use other weapons as well (which the Myrmidon DOES NOT) 4 turrets, 300 metric drone bay, and the ship will compare much better to it's peers. Being able to carry 1 of each level of offensive drones isn't quite strong, but it is a bit more unstable in terms of balance with respect to my proposal. Mine proposal would allow the ship to become an awsome reuse of all types of drones, as well as hyped up ones. Such bonuses would be 50% speed to the drones, 50% tracking, 50% damage, 50% strength on EW drones, 50% webbing ability, 50% activation range, 50% use range, 50% EVERYTHING at level 5. However, YOUR modifier would basically stear the BC balance more into a LOL TANK OR GANK WE PICK! LOLzozlO!1111 Of course, that is all you know, being Gallente. Do not try to deny it! Now, I don't quite understand why you are attacking me, but... Okay. Please explain yourself exactly what you mean and your reasoning why you think it would make the Myrmidon compatative with the other tier 2 battlecruisers. Keep in mind that you need to present your own idea, and not attack someone else's. Also, do not forget to adress the primary concern being that the Myrmidon does not have anywhere near enough back up drones when fielding drone flights that would make it's performance comparable to it's peers. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Obsidian Hawk Gallente Statler and Waldorf	Posted - 2006.11.08 23:34:00 - [680] well ok then how about this. Up the myrmidon drone bay to 150 m¦ and up the drone bonuses by an additional 5%; this would allow for 4 heavies and 2 mediums drones 1 light, or create your own spiffy combo. Plus don't forget the 3 rig slots which will help improve the drones even more. Before anyone else complains I would like to really hear about how the drone rigs improve the drones on the myrmidon. I ask this because I have not heard of anyone using drone rigs yet. On a side note: Try pve in the cosmos complexes in Sinq and Metropolis. The rats there use pvp tactics. They scram, stasis and gang on you.

Ratzap Gallente Old Farts	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:31:00 - [681] I just tried out a drake with 7 t2 heavy assault missiles. Pretty fun (if somewhat low range with Rage ammo) until you see the cap. It goes down, constantly. The effect of 7 x -27% recharge was rather profound. I can see a nice market for Arbalest heavy assaults after Kali comes out 8) Ratzap
Hanns Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.09 01:57:00 - [682] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Kodiak31415 What I've come up with so far is: The harbringer is awseome and ammar needed some love, no problem there. The hurricane is pretty good and will be a nice addition to the game. The drake is totally overpowered, can outank and outdps most, if not all, other BC's at the same time. The Myrmidon (in its current config) is never going to get used.snip Another alt aimed at FLAMING Caldari. Isn't anyone here see the USUAL GALLENTE WHINE of OOOHH GIVE ME MORE DRONE SPACE, F* UP ALL OTHER SHIPS! Geez... this is crap, I hope the people at CCP acutally ignore such obvious and blatant WHINE fests!!! Next thing who knows the new BC for Gallente will have drone space as the Dominix with the damage and count drone bonuses to 15-20%.. Quote: "When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong..." Answer: Pot in very high quantities is bad for you! Stop while you have something left in your head that you can use, or is it too late! Kodiak31415 is spot on, oh and I hope the people at CCP acutally ignore such obvious and blatant CALDARI FANBOI fests!!! Your another caldari fanboi who would love for the drake to be released as is, so u can fly around with another win button ship. do you know what will happen if the drake is released as is? the only caldari ships youll see in space will be Drakes, Ravens and the odd scorp here and there. Originally by:** Tuxford a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
Peppy LePew	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:41:00 - [683] Originally by: Hanns do you know what will happen if the drake is released as is? the only caldari ships youll see in space will be Drakes, Ravens and the odd scorp here and there. Kinda how the only Gallente ships in space are Thoraxes, Megathrons and the occasional Dominix? Oh wait almost every hauler I see is Gellente too, nevermind. And have fun trying to PvP in a Drake. Not only does it not have more DPS than all the other BCs (please see the several graphs that have been presented in this very topic), but it can't have hardly any tank / EWAR at all while using those weapons.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:10:00 - [684] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk well ok then how about this. Up the myrmidon drone bay to 150 m¦ and up the drone bonuses by an additional 5%; this would allow for 4 heavies and 2 mediums drones 1 light, or create your own spiffy combo. Plus don't forget the 3 rig slots which will help improve the drones even more. Before anyone else complains I would like to really hear about how the drone rigs improve the drones on the myrmidon. I ask this because I have not heard of anyone using drone rigs yet. On a side note: Try pve in the cosmos complexes in Sinq and Metropolis. The rats there use pvp tactics. They scram, stasis and gang on you. That would make the 5-heavy Myrmidon do a wee bit too much damage, actually. Also, drone rigs don't help combat drones. They only help sentry drones, electronic warfare drones, or utility drones. Or misc drone bonuses that are all-in-all useless such as drone control range. There are no combat drone damage rigs. As anyone with some brains know, sentry drones are useless so the only drone rig that might be able to help the Myrmidon does not. But rigs wouldn't change anything at all in either case. What is needed is BACKUP DRONES. 5 heavies + 10% per level drone bonus puts the Myrmidon up at a competative level, then you need backup drones on top of that. Not a single extra flight, you need more than that. Drones die so ****ed easy it's not funny, especially now that people will actually start shooting the drones because the host ship is bolstered with +50% hit points. It's a disgrace that a drone ship is the only ship that is not allowed a reusable main weapon system, but it is inherent in the poor design of drones which stem from when drones were strict backup weapons. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Cletus Graeme Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.11.09 12:09:00 - [685] Originally by: Logan Xerxes Originally by: Blind Man Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. Yea, after this I feel that the Ferox will need to have a look at in order to not become useless to anyone who is not using it as a stepping stone between the Moa and Rokh. Uhm, that's what the Ferox was always supposed to be. Finally it will be used as a rail sniper. This is a good thing. Still, it wouldn't hurt to revise it's damage output so it really represents a mid-way point between the moa and the rokh rather than just being a moa with an extra turret. Then again, it's still a cruiser (albeit a battlecruiser) so maybe it's the drake which needs nerfing, as currently it wtfpwns the caracal !
Guano Cakes	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:25:00 - [686] Originally by: Cletus Graeme Originally by: Logan Xerxes Originally by: Blind Man Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. Yea, after this I feel that the Ferox will need to have a look at in order to not become useless to anyone who is not using it as a stepping stone between the Moa and Rokh. Uhm, that's what the Ferox was always supposed to be. Finally it will be used as a rail sniper. This is a good thing. Still, it wouldn't hurt to revise it's damage output so it really represents a mid-way point between the moa and the rokh rather than just being a moa with an extra turret. Then again, it's still a cruiser (albeit a battlecruiser) so maybe it's the drake which needs nerfing, as currently it wtfpwns the caracal ! Sorry, but nobody will be using the Ferox after the Drake. Why? For the same reason people use it as a missile ship now. It's a pathetic attempt at filling the gap between the kestrel and the raven, and it makes a weak missile boat at that. It's only saving grace is the nice shield resist bonus, but with a ship that actually has the OPTION of dealing some damage while tanking (and no, it aint no Tank 'n' Gank with basic heavy missiles), it will become obsolete. Tell me if you will, what good a passive tank is if you can't even kill NPCs with it? Because I'm dying to know why people think doing so is overpowered.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:30:00 - [687] But the Ferox is a gunship, so the argument is moot anyway. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Schlauke Gallente Zooner Corp G.U.A.R.D.	Posted - 2006.11.09 17:14:00 - [688] Anybody else noticed that since they changed the Slot and Turret Layout of the Myrmidon it only has 17 Slots total while all the other Tier 2 BCs have 18 Slots total? So give one of the high Slots back to the Myrmidon. Greetings Schlauke
OneSock	Posted - 2006.11.09 17:34:00 - [689] OK rather than increase the dronebay, just give it an uber drone HP bonus. That way it would be a waste of time for an opponent to shoot at your drones.
Nonoffensive Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:57:00 - [690] Originally by: OneSock OK rather than increase the dronebay, just give it an uber drone HP bonus. That way it would be a waste of time for an opponent to shoot at your drones. This would not change the fact that the Myr is still doing about the dps of a Vexor. The Myr should at least be given a reasonable chance to outdamage its Cruiser varient. 1 extra turret worth of dps and +25m3 of drone space doesn't cut it for something that costs 10x the ISK. As it stands right now the Myr is not a drone boat, it is a Teir 2 BC with 17 slots and a drone bonus. I would like options. Options are good and currently in Kali DPS doesn't win solo fights anyway.

Talon Calais Gallente Nubs. Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:32:00 - [691] Nerf the hurricane now. Messing around with one on my minnie alt, who has crap gunnery + missile skills, fitted as such: 7x 425s w/Phased Plasma 1x Heavy Assault w/Terror MWD II L Shield booster Kin + Therm hardeners 2x Gyro IIs 2x Nanofiber 1x Inertial Stabalizer It's a very cheap and insurable vaga.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:54:00 - [692] Originally by: Talon Calais Nerf the hurricane now. Messing around with one on my minnie alt, who has crap gunnery + missile skills, fitted as such: 7x 425s w/Phased Plasma 1x Heavy Assault w/Terror MWD II L Shield booster Kin + Therm hardeners 2x Gyro IIs 2x Nanofiber 1x Inertial Stabalizer It's a very cheap and insurable vaga. lol then nerf everything as with a pair of inertia stabs any ship becomes a cheap and insurable vaga
Acheron Cyc Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:09:00 - [693] Originally by: Guano Cakes Originally by: Cletus Graeme Originally by: Logan Xerxes Originally by: Blind Man Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. Yea, after this I feel that the Ferox will need to have a look at in order to not become useless to anyone who is not using it as a stepping stone between the Moa and Rokh. Uhm, that's what the Ferox was always supposed to be. Finally it will be used as a rail sniper. This is a good thing. Still, it wouldn't hurt to revise it's damage output so it really represents a mid-way point between the moa and the rokh rather than just being a moa with an extra turret. Then again, it's still a cruiser (albeit a battlecruiser) so maybe it's the drake which needs nerfing, as currently it wtfpwns the caracal ! Sorry, but nobody will be using the Ferox after the Drake. Why? For the same reason people use it as a missile ship now. It's a pathetic attempt at filling the gap between the kestrel and the raven, and it makes a weak missile boat at that. It's only saving grace is the nice shield resist bonus, but with a ship that actually has the OPTION of dealing some damage while tanking (and no, it aint no Tank 'n' Gank with basic heavy missiles), it will become obsolete. Tell me if you will, what good a passive tank is if you can't even kill NPCs with it? Because I'm dying to know why people think doing so is overpowered. Yep, noone will use it because all the sad missile ***** will switch, but at least, we will see the remaining Feroxes being used for what they were meant to: Gunships. ------------------------------------------ "To do something right it must be done twice. The first time instructs the second." Simon Bolivar.
Guano Cakes	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:01:00 - [694] Originally by: Acheron Cyc Yep, noone will use it because all the sad missile ***** will switch, but at least, we will see the remaining Feroxes being used for what they were meant to: Gunships. Did you at least agree with the point, that it is a terrible gun ship? That's why it is used as a missile boat afterall, the range bonus is negligible and for that matter, most of the other caldari "gunships" are pretty worthless as well. The Harpy being the only exception. The Drake is at the core a Ferox with 2 more missile slots, an extra mid but less ability to fit weapons without filling the lows with PDS, that is far from overpowered. Yet I suppose the RoF bonus makes it so overpowered! God nerf it pls
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.11.10 09:18:00 - [695] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk well ok then how about this. Up the myrmidon drone bay to 150 m¦ and up the drone bonuses by an additional 5%; this would allow for 4 heavies and 2 mediums drones 1 light, or create your own spiffy combo. Plus don't forget the 3 rig slots which will help improve the drones even more. Before anyone else complains I would like to really hear about how the drone rigs improve the drones on the myrmidon. I ask this because I have not heard of anyone using drone rigs yet Yeah the math there is a bit wrong, so I won't go into that. The rigs right now aren't interesting at all. Since there is no dmg mod rig apart from for the sentry drones (yeah large drones, so you can't even use a full load atm) you have some really great ones left: well you don't, but there's a control range mod: sucks cos it's less than a link augmentor and any real drone user would rather use a high slot for that. A hp bonus rig .. like that's gonna matter.. it will take people an extra salvo to kill a drone (sweet) but with the 50% hp boost it won't matter. I think there's a drone speed mod.. I suppose that COULD be useful for heavy drones (so not on a myrmi) but with the drone .. features .. faster drones have lower chance of hitting = crap. The non battle drone rigs will be even less interesting since the myrmi needs drones for dmg. So if you would spend money on rigs (seriously for a myrmi why would you not just take a domi then?) you would prolly do it for speed or armour. So there you go.. On a side-note: I wholeheartedly agree that although the drake may look overpowered, it will be rather moot in solo-pvp ing cos shield tanking + tackling = ftl. It will be rather uber in small gangs with tacklers, but being a (short range?) BC, it will die rather horribly vs BS .. I think.. - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please
Niaal	Posted - 2006.11.10 16:38:00 - [696] Hmm.. Myr is low on damage? How does a myr with 3 med nos compare to a harbinger with 3 nos?
Talon Calais Gallente Nubs. Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.10 17:44:00 - [697] Originally by: Ath Amon lol then nerf everything as with a pair of inertia stabs any ship becomes a cheap and insurable vaga Let me put it this way, a BC with major firepower and a tank has no business doing 2.1k/s with the ability to navigate like an assault frig (It's as nimble as my Enyo).
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.10 21:30:00 - [698] Schlauke, it's intentional. It sacrifices two high slots for one extra low slot. Originally by: Niaal Hmm.. Myr is low on damage? How does a myr with 3 med nos compare to a harbinger with 3 nos? The Harbringer doesn't have 3 med nos. It takes it's increased range and sticks outside the Myrmidon's nosferatus, killing it - not slowly but fast. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Sphalerite Caldari Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.10 23:53:00 - [699] Originally by: Talon Calais Let me put it this way, a BC with major firepower and a tank has no business doing 2.1k/s with the ability to navigate like an assault frig (It's as nimble as my Enyo). That has to be one of the worst Hurricane fittings I've seen to date. A large shield booster with a MWD fit and no cap mods is not a tank. I'm reasonably sure that it I could kill that solo with a crow. That being said, the hurricane is a fantastic ship with a couple of excellent fitting options that I expect to see quite a few of. The harb and myr could use a little push to put them in line with the 'cane and drake. "Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall"
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.11 09:22:00 - [700] Originally by: Talon Calais Originally by: Ath Amon lol then nerf everything as with a pair of inertia stabs any ship becomes a cheap and insurable vaga Let me put it this way, a BC with major firepower and a tank has no business doing 2.1k/s with the ability to navigate like an assault frig (It's as nimble as my Enyo). then the problem is about inertia stabs and not by the hurricane... you can do the same thing on the drake, brutix and even harbringer... we should nerf all of them? nanoconfigs are extremely easy to do on sisi, is not a thing that only the hurricane can do... also probably this will work better with caldari ships due to the no tracking issue of missiles.

Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.11 17:07:00 - [701] Quote: It's a very cheap and insurable vaga. God forbid that something might actually drive Vaga prices down, besides you can place those same stabilizers on a Vaga, try it, I did it's nuts. Players have been doing that for ages, look at the Nano-phoon, it can fly cicles around any BC and almost most crusiers, it's one tactic in a million that one can have. Besides the fact that, to me, is not a very viable setup, I'd much rather have a decent tank (Armor) then orbit beyond the tracking of my ACs. People can setup there ships how they want and I'd happily take a nice tanked Hurricane to fight a 'Vaganized' Hurricane (or for that matter any BC with stabilizers).
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.12 11:10:00 - [702] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk Plus don't forget the 3 rig slots which will help improve the drones even more. Before anyone else complains I would like to really hear about how the drone rigs improve the drones on the myrmidon. I ask this because I have not heard of anyone using drone rigs yet. Drone rigs are not that useful. They only give you stuff like speed or control range increase. The only +damage drone rig is for sentry drones. There exists no +dronebay rig. And for balancing the myrmidon vs other drone ships righs are pretty useless in the first place anyway, sicne theother drone ships can fit them just as well.
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.11.12 18:42:00 - [703] I just tested the Drake for a quick-run before they closed it down and changed it to test a Dragon code until tuesday First off 7 launchers is great... but I think it's nicely balanced - It reminds me a bit of a brutix actually. only this ship is way too slow and cumbersome... I only tried with the passive badass tank - That is very insane, BUT I had to leave the 8th high empty and fit 2 RCU's just to install 7 HAMs and 3 Large Shield Extenders with 3 passive shield hardeners (active doesn't fit due to cpu). Considered all users have Heavy Assault Missile spec 5 on testserver I say it's nicely balanced but rather skillheavy to use... Pinky
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.13 03:50:00 - [704] Originally by: Hanns Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Kodiak31415 What I've come up with so far is: The harbringer is awseome and ammar needed some love, no problem there. The hurricane is pretty good and will be a nice addition to the game. The drake is totally overpowered, can outank and outdps most, if not all, other BC's at the same time. The Myrmidon (in its current config) is never going to get used.snip Another alt aimed at FLAMING Caldari. Isn't anyone here see the USUAL GALLENTE WHINE of OOOHH GIVE ME MORE DRONE SPACE, F*** UP ALL OTHER SHIPS! Geez... this is crap, I hope the people at CCP acutally ignore such obvious and blatant WHINE fests!!! Next thing who knows the new BC for Gallente will have drone space as the Dominix with the damage and count drone bonuses to 15-20%.. Quote: "When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong..." Answer: Pot in very high quantities is bad for you! Stop while you have something left in your head that you can use, or is it too late! Kodiak31415 is spot on, oh and I hope the people at CCP acutally ignore such obvious and blatant CALDARI FANBOI fests!!! Your another caldari fanboi who would love for the drake to be released as is, so u can fly around with another win button ship. do you know what will happen if the drake is released as is? the only caldari ships youll see in space will be Drakes, Ravens and the odd scorp here and there. Well, he got most of it right. Except the Harbinger, while nice enough I suppose... isn't 'awesome' while the Hurricane, which he says is 'pretty good' is second only to the Drake, but is also able to solo.
Kaden Seer	Posted - 2006.11.13 08:27:00 - [705] Bigger drone bay for Myrmidon!
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.13 11:11:00 - [706] just curious ... after 24 pages of replyes, the admins tried some change on myr ( or other ships there some changes was suggested) or it's everithing unchanged?
Graff Spee	Posted - 2006.11.13 11:19:00 - [707] All this bickering about some stuff being overpowered.... While you all miss the point.....These ships are all better than their tier 1 brethren, and make all forms of combat/non combat activities better for battlecruisers. And everyone can use the new missiles, caldari just have alot more missile slots....no shock there, its their style. ANyone try mixing these with blasters?
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.11.13 11:21:00 - [708] afaik the Myrmod had a change in slot design to help it out...
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.13 11:59:00 - [709] anyone tried brutix vs myrmidon? without ewar ofc...
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.13 12:03:00 - [710] Originally by: Pinky Denmark afaik the Myrmod had a change in slot design to help it out... anybody got more info about this?!?

Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.13 12:30:00 - [711] No, Jim McGregor, the Myrmidon isn't great like the others are. Originally by: Pinky Denmark afaik the Myrmod had a change in slot design to help it out... +1 turret, -2 high, +1 low. Didn't help it one bit, cause they forgot +150m¦ drone bay - EVE is sick.
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.13 13:12:00 - [712] Originally by: Ithildin No, Jim McGregor, the Myrmidon isn't great like the others are. Originally by: Pinky Denmark afaik the Myrmod had a change in slot design to help it out... +1 turret, -2 high, +1 low. Didn't help it one bit, cause they forgot +150m¦ drone bay after all they gave us a tank ship...we'll tank like hell till we dieee!!! :P :P :P they all got pwn ships and we got a tanker...marvelous! couse they gave us brutix in the first place?!? thats explains ccp didnt think bout anything for tier II bcs...if they knew things would not go like this... got an idea make brutix tier II add more pg hp and stuff make myrmidon tier I... :P
Katabrok First Caldari Asguard Security Service Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:26:00 - [713] Originally by: Akiman Originally by: Ithildin No, Jim McGregor, the Myrmidon isn't great like the others are. Originally by: Pinky Denmark afaik the Myrmod had a change in slot design to help it out... +1 turret, -2 high, +1 low. Didn't help it one bit, cause they forgot +150m¦ drone bay after all they gave us a tank ship...we'll tank like hell till we dieee!!! :P :P :P they all got pwn ships and we got a tanker...marvelous! couse they gave us brutix in the first place?!? thats explains ccp didnt think bout anything for tier II bcs...if they knew things would not go like this... got an idea make brutix tier II add more pg hp and stuff make myrmidon tier I... :P I said it some 3 pages ago, and I absolutely agree with you. Brutix for Tier 2 Gal BC now. Vote you too. Katabrok, the space barbarian. I want the The Correct DreadÖ!!!!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:31:00 - [714] Myrmidon is the gallente maller.
Sev Renard Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:23:00 - [715] Myrmidrion + 3 sentry drone rigs + dual webs = FUNTIME! _________________________________________ I wonder which will come first, my portrait, or a sig hijack...
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.11.13 20:51:00 - [716] Gallente don't need a tier 2 BC when they have the brutix anyway...
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:23:00 - [717] After having looked at the Myrmidon long and hard, I've come to the following conclusions: 1. It looks beautiful; and 2. It will never be used. With a 100m3 drone bay, there is no serious drone users that will ever fly the Myrmidon, ever. Having done the math, the damage output of the Myrmidon as it is, is going to exceed that of the Vexor only when it has 6 turrets fitted. This, with the new fitting stats, means gimping your setup. The Domi is not that much more expensive (estimate 20mil) while it provides you with all of the options missing in the Myrmidon. On the other hand, the Vexor provides a much cheaper ship doing about the same damage. As it stands, the recent change gimped the Myrmidon even more. What is missing is a 100m3 to 150m3 drone bay increase. Without it, the Myrmidon will not be a viable option. Which is a shame, because it really looks good. -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:26:00 - [718] Originally by: Katabrok First I said it some 3 pages ago, and I absolutely agree with you. Brutix for Tier 2 Gal BC now. Vote you too. Not if they make brutixes start costing 40-50 mil... ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:38:00 - [719] Originally by: Pinky Denmark Gallente don't need a tier 2 BC when they have the brutix anyway... Try fitting a brutix so it that it can even remotely compete with any of the new BCs apart from the Crapdon. Then come back and say that. Hint: you might wanna wait until PG rigs work, cause you'll need 3 to get the same fitting with lowest-tier guns that the other ones get with mid-tiers + gun dmg rigs. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Wintermoon Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.14 02:17:00 - [720] Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane After having looked at the Myrmidon long and hard, I've come to the following conclusions: 1. It looks beautiful; and 2. It will never be used. With a 100m3 drone bay, there is no serious drone users that will ever fly the Myrmidon, ever. Having done the math, the damage output of the Myrmidon as it is, is going to exceed that of the Vexor only when it has 6 turrets fitted. This, with the new fitting stats, means gimping your setup. The Domi is not that much more expensive (estimate 20mil) while it provides you with all of the options missing in the Myrmidon. On the other hand, the Vexor provides a much cheaper ship doing about the same damage. As it stands, the recent change gimped the Myrmidon even more. What is missing is a 100m3 to 150m3 drone bay increase. Without it, the Myrmidon will not be a viable option. Which is a shame, because it really looks good. Spot on. The ship will always be compared to the cheaper vexor if it doesn't get a drone bay increase. Even if it DID get a dronebay increase it will get compared to the dominix which will do the same thing much better for not much more ISK. I think this ship needs a completely new role.

Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:51:00 - [721] Originally by: Wintermoon Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane After having looked at the Myrmidon long and hard, I've come to the following conclusions: 1. It looks beautiful; and 2. It will never be used. With a 100m3 drone bay, there is no serious drone users that will ever fly the Myrmidon, ever. Having done the math, the damage output of the Myrmidon as it is, is going to exceed that of the Vexor only when it has 6 turrets fitted. This, with the new fitting stats, means gimping your setup. The Domi is not that much more expensive (estimate 20mil) while it provides you with all of the options missing in the Myrmidon. On the other hand, the Vexor provides a much cheaper ship doing about the same damage. As it stands, the recent change gimped the Myrmidon even more. What is missing is a 100m3 to 150m3 drone bay increase. Without it, the Myrmidon will not be a viable option. Which is a shame, because it really looks good. Spot on. The ship will always be compared to the cheaper vexor if it doesn't get a drone bay increase. Even if it DID get a dronebay increase it will get compared to the dominix which will do the same thing much better for not much more ISK. I think this ship needs a completely new role. I've said it before on this topic, the ship should be an improved Celestis. Remove the armor repair bonus. Replace with a Sensor Dampener strength bonus. Go back to original slot configuration but remove 2 high and replace with 2 med. What do we have? Max NOS MWD/AB, web, scram, 4 dampeners Nano's People can target the drones but it will take them a few minutes to target them. People can try to get into web range but with nanos/mwd that might be a problem. Now this ship can do some damage slowly killing ships over time. Sure it relys on NOS but what setup doesn't?
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.14 08:26:00 - [722] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 14/11/2006 08:33:45 So if i uderstood well myr actually have: 6 hi (6x turrets) 5 med 6 low 75M3 drone bonuses: armour rep bonus drone dammage bonus IMHO at this point it's more a gunship and not a droneship. At this point remove the drone dammage bonus ( wich is at least wasted with this drone bay) and give him a hibryd dammage bonus. I'm all for a drone ship ( i'm drone fan), but this bonus it's a complete vast ( exept for pve ), with less thatn 150m3 no one will seriuosly use this ship as a drone ship) p.s) what about remove drone dammage bonus and hive him +25M3 drone bay per level? This mean that this ship will not have any dammage bonus, but i realy prefer some replacemente instead of a dammage bonus almost unused.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Gallente Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.11.14 10:17:00 - [723] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 14/11/2006 08:33:45 So if i uderstood well myr actually have: 6 hi (6x turrets) 5 med 6 low 75M3 drone bonuses: armour rep bonus drone dammage bonus IMHO at this point it's more a gunship and not a droneship. At this point remove the drone dammage bonus ( wich is at least wasted with this drone bay) and give him a hibryd dammage bonus. I'm all for a drone ship ( i'm drone fan), but this bonus it's a complete vast ( exept for pve ), with less thatn 150m3 no one will seriuosly use this ship as a drone ship) p.s) what about remove drone dammage bonus and hive him +25M3 drone bay per level? This mean that this ship will not have any dammage bonus, but i realy prefer some replacemente instead of a dammage bonus almost unused. Not quite Myrmidon current slot setup is right, but it has 100 cubic meters drone bay, and the drone bonus is damage and hitpoints per level. Not just damage. Also it's not even a gunship since it has no damage bonus to guns, and is hardly a drone BC since as people say (i haven't done any math here) it outdamages the Vexor by a little when it uses a full set of guns only (that is 6 guns). The drone bonus is not a complete waste, it's a nice bonus. A little more increased drone bay would be nice though too. It would make the ship more attractive to use in PvP too. So at this point we have 2 BC that can't perform their role very good (provided that we count Brutix as a damage dealer), since either of them lacks something to actually be competitive with the new BC (pg for Brutix, damage output for Myrmidon). At least that is my understanding so far. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.14 10:24:00 - [724] Why do you need any math? Vexor: 5 T2 Medium Drones w. 10% dmg bonus, 5 effective guns (4*1.25) Myrmidon: 5 T2 Medium Drones w. 10% dmg bonus, 6 guns The difference? 1 bonus-less turret for 35-40m isk difference, wheeee! ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.11.14 10:32:00 - [725] I've said it before and will say it again: A ship without a drone dmg bonus isn't a drone ship. - I mean there aren't even drone implants or dmg mods.. you need dmg+hp dmg to be a viable drone ship. The extra drone space bonus sux and should only be given to ships that use logistics drones. If it gets that bonus instead of a drone dmg+hp bonus every drone use will stay with the same 2yr old domi. A ship without the possibility to bring spare drones to the field is not a drone ship. - With the hp boost to everything but drones (unless they change it before kali hits) people will treat drones as a very viable target, especially vs drone ships.. Even with similar dps you will get beaten because your dmg dealers are destroyed. And drones are quite easy to lose. I agree with the people above: vexor does similar dmg if myrmi has less than 125 m^3 drone space at way lower costs and the lack of tank on that ship is well compensated by the lack of isk going in it. It has 2 spare places for medium drones or 10 for light drones. The domi is way better than a myrmi atm, seeing the production costs of a myrmi makes me cringe. Now with the 6 (6/0) 5 6 setup at least it doesn't look silly since you can fill all obvious turret points on the ship. But the domi's 6 (6/0) 5 7 setup is far more efficient. Sure it lacks the tank bonus but it has a large hybrid dmg bonus (so it's not a true drone ship, the myrmi was the only one coming close to that sadly) and it fits large stuff (especially nos will be far more useful in the heavy variant). It will be a better hp tank with a bunch of the new and improved 1600's. Even if you want to follow the vexor domi path the myrmi should have 150m^3: vexor - 3x light set = 75m^3 myrmi - 3x medium set = 150m^3 domi - 3x heavy set = 375m^3 Honestly, MAKE UP YOUR MIND AND REDUCE THE BONUS TO SCOUT DRONES, and give us 150m^3 and an equal amount of slots as the other tier 2 BC. Please, just give us a useful drone ship, we have been waiting so long since the domi/drones got nerfed... - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:02:00 - [726] Why not just leave the drone damage bonus the way it is, give it 250m3 worth of space and be done with it? That would allow for slightly more dps than a Vexor, a decent tank, and some backup drones. Because I said so...
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:53:00 - [727] please ccp...do something... look at others... a giant vagabond,missile platform tanker, dont look into that amarr ship tho...please dont waste that cool design into a something [email protected] she lives her name...
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:19:00 - [728] Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 14/11/2006 14:20:29 I also don't see the points made earlier about limiting the drone bay in order to prevent the Myrmidon using a full set of large combat drones. It is claimed that this will somehow invalidate the Domi or somehow threaten its supremacy as a drone boat. In my view, nothing is further from the truth: Even with a drone bay of 250m3, the largest asked for so far here, the Domi will have a much larger drone bay and thus more staying power and flexibility; Unlike the Myrmidon, the Domi also has a hybrid turret bonus, giving it (the ability to have) extra DPS, where as the Myrmidon has no turret bonus and certainly can't fit the biggest turrets; The PG and CPU of the Domi dwarfs the Myrmidon, so it can fit a BS tank, where as the Myrmidon, even with the repper bonus comes nowhere near in pure tanking ability In short, the Domi will (and should) out-stay, out-damage, and out-tank the Myrmidon, and a change in drone bay size will not change that. The only thing I see with an increase of the drone bay is the potential of a higher drone DPS because it can now use an extra large combat drone. Before jumping on the nerf Gallente bandwagon consider the following: The increase is extremely limited if you compare it against the DPS of 5 medium drones (which are now possible); and The DPS of a fully gank Myrmidon (full set of large combat drones plus 6 turrets) is still lower than all other tier 2 BCs introduced (maybe even all BCs period, I admit I haven't done the math on this), certainly in their gank setups. In short, compared to the other BCs introduced, and probably compared to the other BCs as well, the Myrmidon without a drone bay increase will be severely limited in flexibility, severly out-damaged, and thus will be the black sheep among the BCs and will not be used in game. Which is a shame, because it really looks good. -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.11.14 16:42:00 - [729] I'm taking a look at all the battlecruisers. It does indeed seems that the myrmidon is the bit underpowered compared to others. The immidiate knee jerk reaction is to boost the myrmidon but that might not necessarily be the right thing to do. Its not really a bad ship. I'm getting something like 500dps (using medium drones and electrons) with a tanking ability of 250 hp/sec which is quite a lot actually. We are a little reluctant of increasing the drone bay as that would allow it to fit 5 heavies. Of course there is a way like giving it a big drone bay and then a 5% bonus instead of 10% bonus. Ah well we'll see, but we're looking into it. Hurricane is a monster. It melts other battlecruisers before they can say "look at that cool ship". It also has no problems fitting autocannons and good defense or plates or whatever. Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. Sorry for the lack of detail but I'm been working at 150% capacity all day and am tired and wired (weird combo). _______________

Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.14 17:08:00 - [730] I cannot stress enough how meaningful having sufficient drone bay for spare drones is. Like I suggested before, an increase in drone bay could be negated by a change in the damage bonus: 10% to light and medium, 5% to heavy. I think that would achieve the intention in a simple way. ---

Darpz Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.11.14 17:21:00 - [731] Edited by: Darpz on 14/11/2006 17:23:33 Originally by: Tuxford I'm taking a look at all the battlecruisers. It does indeed seems that the myrmidon is the bit underpowered compared to others. The immidiate knee jerk reaction is to boost the myrmidon but that might not necessarily be the right thing to do. Its not really a bad ship. I'm getting something like 500dps (using medium drones and electrons) with a tanking ability of 250 hp/sec which is quite a lot actually. We are a little reluctant of increasing the drone bay as that would allow it to fit 5 heavies. Of course there is a way like giving it a big drone bay and then a 5% bonus instead of 10% bonus. Ah well we'll see, but we're looking into it. Hurricane is a monster. It melts other battlecruisers before they can say "look at that cool ship". It also has no problems fitting autocannons and good defense or plates or whatever. Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. Sorry for the lack of detail but I'm been working at 150% capacity all day and am tired and wired (weird combo). true but an elextron brutix does very simlar dps and tankage already. but if you kill its drones its dps is still respectable. also whats the fear of 5 heavy drones. I think all the other BCs are good the way they are and don't need a nerfing (possibly the harb could use a bit more grid) but why not try to give the myrm a 150-200m3 drone bay and just see what happens. I think what we'll find is it balances very well with the other ships. another option is if your really against the 5 heavys is bringing back the +1 drone per level skill, not sure if your willing to do this but 10xUnbonused mediums would be very unique do simlar dps to the 5xHeavys with a bonus, and you could give the boat a 150 meter drone bay without having to worry about lots of heavys since it would make more sence to launch mediums
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.14 17:27:00 - [732] Originally by: tuxford Sorry for the lack of detail but I'm been working at 150% capacity all day and am tired and wired It's ok Tux. We know what the real problem may be. We love you anyway. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C	Posted - 2006.11.14 17:36:00 - [733] The extreme lack of discussion about the Amarr BC offering in Kali by both the community and Tuxford himself is very disturbing. I think we are about to witness a second mass exodus...this time from the Empire. Merc Blog
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.14 18:18:00 - [734] Originally by: Tuxford Of course there is a way like giving it a big drone bay and then a 5% bonus instead of 10% bonus. How bout a 7.5% bonus instead? Or here's an idea... release a high slot drone dmg module and then the 5% bonus would be fine. Then the Myr would really be a drone boat.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.14 18:22:00 - [735] Originally by: Karash Amerius The extreme lack of discussion about the Amarr BC offering in Kali by both the community and Tuxford himself is very disturbing. I think we are about to witness a second mass exodus...this time from the Empire. theres some discussion in this very thread here. in short: looks really nice compared to other amarrian ships (not exactly difficult) but dont try to compare it to the really good ones: hurricane/drake. hurricane should be able to outperform it in pretty much every regard and well the drake is caldari. you cant really expect to compete with the alpha race. oh and the 7th turret is placed in a way to constantely remind you that the ship was nerfed down from the original concept.
Niki Noir	Posted - 2006.11.14 18:51:00 - [736] Regarding the Myrmidon... I am a drone user almost exclusively, and Id really like to see the Myrmidon be a drone battlecruiser. Even if it means severely nerfing the ships gun systems (ie: removing turret points or high slots in general) Without the ability to field 5 heavy drones (with the damage/hp boost in full) i see no reason to choose this ship. A vexor does about the same damage as the mrymidon but is much less of a risk isk wise. The dominix will do a lot more damage and have one of the best tanks in the game. I doubt the Myrmidon will be that much cheaper than a domi, so... with the current settings why would i as a drone user choose to pay the ISK for an expensive battlecruiser to get cruiser lvl damage and a middling tank? I dont see the point. However, with my low intaki perception, i guess the devs are doing me a favor by saving me the time to train battlecruisers.
Artemdorius Gallente Puzzleball Industries	Posted - 2006.11.14 19:26:00 - [737] Personally, with the upcoming EW changes that make non-specialized ships pretty much useless with EW modules, I think it might be a good idea to give the Myrmidon a bonus to EW drones and take off the drone damage bonus. You could even keep the small drone bay IF the EW drone bonus was high enough to make 5 medium EW drones as powerful as 5 heavies with Battlecruiser V. This would finally give us drone specialists a reason to use EW drones instead of combat drones, since (at least with Gallente) any ship with a decent drone bay has a drone damage bonus, and it is too much of a hit to DPS to use EW drones on a vexor or dominix.
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.14 20:28:00 - [738] Edited by: Isyel on 14/11/2006 20:29:05 Originally by: Tuxford I'm taking a look at all the battlecruisers. It does indeed seems that the myrmidon is the bit underpowered compared to others. The immidiate knee jerk reaction is to boost the myrmidon but that might not necessarily be the right thing to do. Its not really a bad ship. I'm getting something like 500dps (using medium drones and electrons) with a tanking ability of 250 hp/sec which is quite a lot actually. We are a little reluctant of increasing the drone bay as that would allow it to fit 5 heavies. Of course there is a way like giving it a big drone bay and then a 5% bonus instead of 10% bonus. Ah well we'll see, but we're looking into it. Hurricane is a monster. It melts other battlecruisers before they can say "look at that cool ship". It also has no problems fitting autocannons and good defense or plates or whatever. Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. Sorry for the lack of detail but I'm been working at 150% capacity all day and am tired and wired (weird combo). Oh gods, NOOOOOO. Boost the Myrmidon, boost the Harbinger, whatever, just don't nerf the Hurricane. Hell, if it was Gallente or Caldari i bet noone would even think about complaining about it being actually good. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I be needin' some sig love. sigh
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.14 20:36:00 - [739] Tux. Do you even pay attention to the tests? Or are you just listening to the whiners on the forums? The hurricane doesnt 'melt all other battlecruisers'. Maybe in some of the tests on the test server they do, because lets be bonest... people who fly minmatar tend to be better and more skilled than all the gallente flying around on sisi. But seriously... I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the Hurricane is overpowered. Is it the fact that minmatar actually have a ship that does decent DPS? Are minmatar not allowed to have ships that tank well? What is it? Even so, in my experiences on sisi with experienced pilots, the hurricane gets beaten pretty easily by well set-up harbringers and myrmidons. And well... the drake beats everything because passive tanks are getting out of control. You dissapoint me. Especially when you say the Drake is less of a problem than the Hurricane. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.14 22:00:00 - [740] Originally by: Tuxford Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. I wouldn't call it a monster. You can't put a full gank setup while still having a good tank setup on the drake. Also the drake's damage output, even with all BCUs in the low slots(which would severely hurt the tank) doesn't compare with the other damage outputs of the other BCs. Please do some calculations before swinging your nerfbat. The drake is now in league with other BCs, unlike previous BC missleboats which were flying piles of crap.

Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:00:00 - [741] Completely random, but... What if you give the myr a bonus to light drones? like the Moros bonus (ok maybe not 50% per level), but applies only to lights... this way, it has the drone bay to hold hords of the light drones, and it can deal some good damage. Thoughts? Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:26:00 - [742] Again the fear of having the Myrmidon fit 5 heavies. Lets do some math: With maximum skill a flight of 5 mediums would have the following DPS against average resistance (evegeek): Hammerhead II: 172.27 Infiltrator II: 119.55 Valkyrie II: 125.5 Vespa II: 145.35 With maximum skill a flight of 4 heavies would have the following DPS against average resistance (evegeek): Beserker II: 200.78 Ogre II: 275.62 Preator II: 191.28 Wasp II: 232.56 With maximum skill a flight of 5 heavies would have the following DPS against average resistance (evegeek): Beserker II: 250.98 Ogre II: 344.53 Preator II: 239.1 Wasp II: 290.7 So with an increase in drone bay, for a highly skilled drone user, the increase in DPS would be a maximum of 344.53-275.62=68.91 (Orge IIs) and a minimum of 239.1-191.28=47.82 (Preator II). All against average resistance. Taking Tuxford's example of a, lets assume, balanced setup with a DPS of 500, an enlarged drone bay would increase this to a maximum of 568.91 DPS. Reading through this forum, the other BCs, with balanced setups (if there is such a thing), predict somewhere between 575 and 650 DPS (total gank setups much higher). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even with an extended drone bay the DPS of the Myrmidon is going to be low. Now lets calculate the increase with a bonus of 5% instead of 10%: With maximum skill a flight of 5 heavies against average resistance with 5% bonus (evegeek): Beserker II: 209.15 Ogre II: 287.1 Preator II: 199.23 Wasp II: 242.25 So with an increase in drone bay but with a decrease in bonus for heavy drones, for a highly skilled drone user, the increase in DPS would be a maximum of 287.1-275.62=11.48 (Ogre II) and a minimum of 199.23-191.28=7.95. All against average resistance. Taking the 500 DPS example again, this would increase the DPS to a maximum of 511.48 DPS. Quite frankly, this is pathetic. I would also like to point out that, taking Tuxford's 500 DPS example again, with 5 medium drones, the drones are doing a maximum of 34.454% of the damage, while with a 4 heavy drones this maximum is 55.124% of the damage. For a dedicated drone boat, which the Myrmidon is supposed to be, I find this very strange. With an increase of the drone bay, still using Tuxford's example, this is going to be around a maximum of about 66.56% (I can't be bothered to calculate the case for the nerfed bonus because the increase will be negligible). A dedicated drone boat doing about two-thirds of its damage through drones sounds reasonable to me. I think the figures above indicate the following: An increase in drone bay but with a reduced bonus results in a negligible increase in DPS, resulting in the same lame duck Myrmidon we have now. An increase in drone bay while keeping the drone bonus as it is will result in a Myrmidon with a DPS slightly lower than those predicted for the other tier 2 BCs. Frankly I do not mind having the Myrmidon have a slightly lower DPS than the other BCs, DPS doesn't tell the whole story, but only if the drone bay increase is sizable enough to give the Myrmidon flexibilty and staying power in a fight. For flexibility and staying power, the Myrmidon needs a drone bay increase somewhere between 100m3 or 150m3, resulting in a final drone bay capacity between 200m3 and 250m3. Without a sizable increase in drone bay capacity though, I don't see the Myrmidon ever being used. Which is a shame, because it really looks good. -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:26:00 - [743] Originally by: Rorix Whitecloud Completely random, but... What if you give the myr a bonus to light drones? like the Moros bonus (ok maybe not 50% per level), but applies only to lights... this way, it has the drone bay to hold hords of the light drones, and it can deal some good damage. Thoughts? Lol, that'd be a tad overpowered me thinks.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:28:00 - [744] Originally by: Tuxford I'm taking a look at all the battlecruisers. Good good..... Originally by: Tuxford Hurricane is a monster. It melts other battlecruisers before they can say "look at that cool ship". It also has no problems fitting autocannons and good defense or plates or whatever. I'm not sure its all that, but it is a nice ship. Minmatar has a decent ship?, LEAVE IT ALONE Now, onto the Caldari drake. You said... Originally by: Tuxford Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. ..skewed image? Hmm... so then we are going to assume that that particular setup is rediculous and NOT how ppl are actually gonna kit it out? lol, just lol.... Originally by: Tuxford It does indeed seems that the myrmidon is the bit underpowered compared to others. The immidiate knee jerk reaction is to boost the myrmidon but that might not necessarily be the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do. Give her a boost! Originally by: Tuxford Sorry for the lack of detail but I'm been working at 150% capacity all day and am tired and wired (weird combo). Get some rest, have a smoke and a pancake, grab a cup of Joe and when your all rested up I want you to come back to this thread and focus on the following line: Nerf the drake & boost the myrmidon.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:32:00 - [745] Originally by: Tasty Burger Tux. Do you even pay attention to the tests? Or are you just listening to the whiners on the forums? The hurricane doesnt 'melt all other battlecruisers'. Maybe in some of the tests on the test server they do, because lets be bonest... people who fly minmatar tend to be better and more skilled than all the gallente flying around on sisi. But seriously... I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the Hurricane is overpowered. Is it the fact that minmatar actually have a ship that does decent DPS? Are minmatar not allowed to have ships that tank well? What is it? Even so, in my experiences on sisi with experienced pilots, the hurricane gets beaten pretty easily by well set-up harbringers and myrmidons. And well... the drake beats everything because passive tanks are getting out of control. You dissapoint me. Especially when you say the Drake is less of a problem than the Hurricane. mostly agree... the only bc that worries me is the drake too, uber tank, good damage and very good damp fittings hurricane seem quite fine to me, it do a bit less damage than a brutix and it trade 1 low slot with the tank bonus... so for what i see it, if the hurricane is umbalanced the brutix is the same... harbringer imo was better with rof bonus... but is my personal taste myrmidon as said in another post seem fine to me, it just need a bigger dronebay and its drone damage bonus applied to small and medium drones only
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:36:00 - [746] Originally by: Rorix Whitecloud Completely random, but... What if you give the myr a bonus to light drones? like the Moros bonus (ok maybe not 50% per level), but applies only to lights... this way, it has the drone bay to hold hords of the light drones, and it can deal some good damage. Thoughts? I my book it would be the bees knees, but realistically, you do not want light or medium drones with the DPS of heavies (it would mean a bonus of about 40% per level for medium drones). It is just asking for the nerfbat. At least, that's what I think. -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:42:00 - [747] Originally by: Tasty Burger Even so, in my experiences on sisi with experienced pilots, the hurricane gets beaten pretty easily by well set-up harbringers and myrmidons. While I also dont want the Hurricane to be nerfed, and would rather see the Harbinger brought up[and all amarr ships really], I am not sure how you can reasonably claim this. The Hurricane does more or equal damage than the Harbinger. The Hurricane is smaller, faster, lighter, and targets faster The Hurricane is super easy to fit. The Hurricane and the Harbinger both armor tank The Hurricane has more capacitor left to armor tank when firing the main guns. The Hurricane has better damage types against an armor tank. Equally skilled pilots, the Hurricane should win every single time.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:56:00 - [748] And to those that suggest increasing the drone bay capacity but moving the drone bonus to lights and mediums only. That is actually a nerf. I've messed around with it for some time, but without 4 heavies with drone bonus, I can't even get near 500 DPS. Granted, my gunnery skills aren't very good, but I was under the impression they weren't needed in a dedicated drone boat. At any rate, lets fire up evegeek again: The DPS of 4 Ogre IIs against average resistance without bonus goes to 183.76 from 275.62 with bonus (see my post above). The DPS of a flight of 5 heavies under these conditions goes to 229.7, an decrease of 45.92 from the current situation (a flight of 4). Meanwhile the DPS of a flight of 5 Hammerhead IIs remains the same at 172.27. All assuming maximum drone skills. So with removing the drone bonus for heavies, a flight of 5 (or 4 for that matter) Ogre IIs will still outdamage a flight of 5 Hammerhead IIs, while bringing the total DPS of the Myrmidon down 45.92 DPS. This is not considering that the small drone bay of the current Myrmidon gives it little flexibility and staying power even when considering medium drones, as I do not consider 2 flights of medium drones enough for a dedicated drone boat. I propose we bury this idea and never refer to it again. -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 01:02:00 - [749] Originally by: Tuxford Of course there is a way like giving it a big drone bay and then a 5% bonus instead of 10% bonus. Like you did for the Ishtar and never told anyone? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Rockbox Amarr Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.15 06:25:00 - [750] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Tuxford Hurricane is a monster. It melts other battlecruisers before they can say "look at that cool ship". It also has no problems fitting autocannons and good defense or plates or whatever. I'm not sure its all that, but it is a nice ship. Minmatar has a decent ship?, LEAVE IT ALONE DONT TOUCH IT Visit us at VETO FORUMS!!1!

Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.15 06:38:00 - [751] I think reducing the others is a better idea than increasing one. since people dont want to give someone an increase to be equal then the only thing to do is decrease the rest to be equal to the worst ;) My Character Stats
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.15 08:14:00 - [752] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 15/11/2006 08:16:52 Originally by: Tuxford I'm taking a look at all the battlecruisers. It does indeed seems that the myrmidon is the bit underpowered compared to others. The immidiate knee jerk reaction is to boost the myrmidon but that might not necessarily be the right thing to do. Its not really a bad ship. I'm getting something like 500dps (using medium drones and electrons) with a tanking ability of 250 hp/sec which is quite a lot actually. We are a little reluctant of increasing the drone bay as that would allow it to fit 5 heavies. Of course there is a way like giving it a big drone bay and then a 5% bonus instead of 10% bonus. Ah well we'll see, but we're looking into it. Hurricane is a monster. It melts other battlecruisers before they can say "look at that cool ship". It also has no problems fitting autocannons and good defense or plates or whatever. Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. Sorry for the lack of detail but I'm been working at 150% capacity all day and am tired and wired (weird combo). First of: tnx for all you are doing, i know very well that it's not easy hear so many different feedback. secondly: about the myrmidon. My and ( i think ) for most of drone user. The main problem is not the DPS on paper, the main problem is that drones can be destroyed, so you can also begin a battle having 500DPS, but can be nerfer before drones have the chance to reach target. Main problem is that battles are going to be longer, and drones over all weapons are the only one that can be immunized once for all (popping them). No other weapons have this issue ( turrets and missiles) even with ECM once broken, turrets can have again lock ( maybe too late , but it's still a hope). All ships have a constant DPS, from begin the battle since the last hull point. Drone ships begin with ( u say ) 500 DPS but during battle this DPS is going down. Kill 4 heyvy drones it's very, very easy, and what's the DPS for a myrmydon without drones? I see 2 ways to solve this problem: 1) forgot about a drone ship, make it another gunship and replace the drone bonus to a gunship bonus ( at your choise). 2) Reduce turret dammage making this ship not uber even with 5 heavyes, this way u can lut a drone bay as large as u will withour increasing even more hes DPS. this way 150-200M3 will mean only done replacement not ad uber ship. If u ask me, gime to myr 200M3 and reduce turret numbers in order to have the same DPS ( 500 as u stated before) and all will be fine.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.11.15 08:52:00 - [753] Originally by: HankMurphy [Now, onto the Caldari drake. You said... Originally by: Tuxford Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. ..skewed image? Hmm... so then we are going to assume that that particular setup is rediculous and NOT how ppl are actually gonna kit it out? lol, just lol.... No what I mean is don't fit a Drake with just gank and tank and then compare it to battlecruiser with guns/tackling/tank. Its not fair. But even so, I'd still say Drake is pretty much pwnage, even when splitting its medslots between tank and tackling. _______________

Torment Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.11.15 09:05:00 - [754] Tux after testing against the tier II BC in my astarte i have found that they Really do struggle against them...My Astarte went through all its cap 800 boosters and actually had to warp off against a Drake on my other account. Maybe a slight boost is in order for all Command ships,Because as of now they are really close to the new BC...maybe too close
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.15 09:41:00 - [755] Originally by: Tuxford No what I mean is don't fit a Drake with just gank and tank and then compare it to battlecruiser with guns/tackling/tank. Its not fair. But even so, I'd still say Drake is pretty much pwnage, even when splitting its medslots between tank and tackling. Well, the thing is that BCs are by their very definition gang ships. So one might argue that tackling is not realyl an important factor for them. Without tackling gear the other BCs will still be a good bit weaker than the drake. Another thing, which has been said several times, but never was commented: Are the HAM javelin stats a bug or intended? With those the drake currently has an 100 km range last time I checked. That is a 560% range boost. To compare, javelin rockets have +180% range and javelin torps +150% range.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 09:48:00 - [756] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: HankMurphy [Now, onto the Caldari drake. You said... Originally by: Tuxford Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. ..skewed image? Hmm... so then we are going to assume that that particular setup is rediculous and NOT how ppl are actually gonna kit it out? lol, just lol.... No what I mean is don't fit a Drake with just gank and tank and then compare it to battlecruiser with guns/tackling/tank. Its not fair. But even so, I'd still say Drake is pretty much pwnage, even when splitting its medslots between tank and tackling. They're all pretty good, though the Harbinger is arguably the weaker than the Hurricane/Drake, APART FROM THE MYRMIDON =P ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.15 10:31:00 - [757] Originally by: Tuxford I'm taking a look at all the battlecruisers. It does indeed seems that the myrmidon is the bit underpowered compared to others. The immidiate knee jerk reaction is to boost the myrmidon but that might not necessarily be the right thing to do. Its not really a bad ship. I'm getting something like 500dps (using medium drones and electrons) with a tanking ability of 250 hp/sec which is quite a lot actually. We are a little reluctant of increasing the drone bay as that would allow it to fit 5 heavies. Of course there is a way like giving it a big drone bay and then a 5% bonus instead of 10% bonus. Ah well we'll see, but we're looking into it. I don't quite understand this fear of 5 heavy drones. As many calculations have shown, the Myrmidon would be quite balanced with 5 heavy drones (and room for spares, of course) and a few less turrets. The problem is that as-is, the Myrmidon is a mediocre gunship (no damage bonus), and a mediocre drone ship (can either only use mediums which results in low dps for a "drone" ship of this class, or use 4 heavies with no backups = suicidal). It doesn't really do anything well. The popular suggestion here seems to be to increase drone bay to 200-250m3 and drop 2 turrets (leaving 4). That would let it function as a drone ship, as I understand the design intent was.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.15 10:35:00 - [758] Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Originally by: Rorix Whitecloud Completely random, but... What if you give the myr a bonus to light drones? like the Moros bonus (ok maybe not 50% per level), but applies only to lights... this way, it has the drone bay to hold hords of the light drones, and it can deal some good damage. Thoughts? I my book it would be the bees knees, but realistically, you do not want light or medium drones with the DPS of heavies (it would mean a bonus of about 40% per level for medium drones). It is just asking for the nerfbat. At least, that's what I think. Agreed. The balancing factor with heavy drones is the fact that they are slow and easy to hit. You do not want to give that kind of DPS to mediums or lights. Just boost the drone bay so the Myr can use a heavy drone setup with some choice/spares, and balance out the damage by dropping a few turrets. Simple.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 10:47:00 - [759] Edited by: keepiru on 15/11/2006 10:47:12 Originally by: Alex Harumichi I don't quite understand this fear of 5 heavy drones. I don't get it either, every BC since time they were introduced has equaled or out-damaged their role-equivalent HAC, and there is a direct correlation between the margin by which they out-damage them and whether the ship is worth using for PVP on TQ. BCs that do less damage than HACs suck. BCs that equal or barely out-damage HACs suck. BCs that out-damage HACs by a fair chunk are worth using. Its really pretty simple... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.15 10:58:00 - [760] Originally by: keepiru BCs that do less damage than HACs suck. BCs that equal or barely out-damage HACs suck. BCs that out-damage HACs by a fair chunk are worth using. I don't even want to have the Myr do huge DPS, I'm ok with it having slightly lower DPS than the others, if what's that it takes. But I want to be able to use it as a drone ship. With the current drone bay, the Myrmidon is useless in that (or any other) role. If I want to use medium drones I'll use a Vexor -- small fraction of the price, same drone DPS. Using heavies with no room for spares is suicide. If I want a gunship bc I have the Brutix. But yeah... for giggles, just compare the tier2 bcs with their closest equivalent racial HACs. All the others are equal or slighly better. Then compare Myrmidon and Ishtar. They are not even in the same ballpark -- Ishtar is a drone ship, the Myrmidon currently is a bad drone/gunship hybrid which does both roles poorly.

Mush Room Caldari Svea Rike Tre Kroner	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:50:00 - [761] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 15/11/2006 10:47:12 Originally by: Alex Harumichi I don't quite understand this fear of 5 heavy drones. I don't get it either, every BC since time they were introduced has equaled or out-damaged their role-equivalent HAC, and there is a direct correlation between the margin by which they out-damage them and whether the ship is worth using for PVP on TQ. BCs that do less damage than HACs suck. BCs that equal or barely out-damage HACs suck. BCs that out-damage HACs by a fair chunk are worth using. Its really pretty simple... You're actually contradicting yourself by saying that every BC has HAC dps or more while saying that the ones that don't have this suck. Hell we have one BC, the Ferox, which actually does less damage than the Caracal. Still it is quite popular, because its tanking outweighs its lack of DPS. Despite this it will become antique once the Drake arrives and steals both tanking and ganking from it. Since this is true, the Myrmidon should also both tank and gank better than the Brutix, otherwise the tier 3 BCs will be unbalanced. Thus drone bay should be increased, to make it a decent drone ship and not just an overpriced Vexor.
Lobo Noturno	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:54:00 - [762] I want to mention a test I did yesterday with the drake: I fitted it for the classical psssive tank config, and then went into battle against a hyperion fitted to kill the drake.(let's assume I was ratting on it, and a pirate found me and attacked me) Before anyone starts crying foul, let me say I lost the battle. The troublesome figure is how close to death was the hyperion when I finally fell. I got him under 75% structure.(I got him in structure right before he broke my shield) Although this is not a pvp configuration, it IS a ratting config, and it's very resilent against PVP configurations. I can imagine lot's of people using these ships in 0.0 for ratting, while still being very well protected against most solo pirates(gangs would have no problem killing it...) Another detail about it is how NOT so strong are the gank capabilities of the ultimate blaster ship... Lobo
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.15 14:19:00 - [763] Originally by: Torment Edited by: Torment on 15/11/2006 09:25:09 Tux after testing against the tier II BC in my astarte i have found that the Command ships(The Astarte in this point)really do struggle against them...My Astarte went through all its cap 800 boosters and actually had to warp off against a Drake on my other account. Maybe a slight boost is in order for all Command ships,Because as of now they are really close to the new BC...maybe too close COOL!!! >_< IMO to reduce t II ship's price 2(3rd amarr?) pwnage monsters came eh? What kind of solution is this? This will revoke new imbalances tech II will be meaningless... Tier II bc's will be new overpriced ships while hacs and commands reduce...Mirror... IMO Myrmidon is a i dont know what i'm good for ship... if we gotta name it below bc all around combat/support ship -2 to high +1 low +1 turret--new layout of myrmidon-- +1 turret(need more pg!!) +1 low (rcu II) -2 high (oops where is my nosses gone?well... Didnt have the pg to fit them anyway) this is for +1 turret...well, its great being gallente isnt it :)
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 14:25:00 - [764] Originally by: Akiman Tier II bc's will be new overpriced ships while hacs and commands reduce...Mirror... How can they become overpriced? They are Tech I ships and the BPO is openly available in unlimited quantities to anyone who wants to build them... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.15 14:58:00 - [765] Oops!Youre right.Forgot about it.
Samriis	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:45:00 - [766] ok, horribly newb question here, but how much space do the other 3 ships have for drones again?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:57:00 - [767] Drake: 25m3 Hurricane: 30m3 Harbinger: 50m3 ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Samriis	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:05:00 - [768] So let me get this straight... All boats can fly a full flight of combat drones if they choose to, be they light or med. I'm having difficulty understanding why then people don't factor these in... are they somehow gimp because they don't have a bonus?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:18:00 - [769] Um, no? I think you'll find most if not all user-created short-range damage comparison graphs use a full flight of drones. What's your point, exactly? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:26:00 - [770] Something that often isn't taken into account is that even IF the Myr were to do more raw DPS on paper than the other BCs, in a realistic situation it wouldn't. Every time a drone is shot, the Myr pilot would have to call the drone back. DPS goes down. The further the drone has to travel will effect the overall drone DPS even more.

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:36:00 - [771] It doesn't anyway; not now, and not with 5 heavyes and 4 turrets. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:22:00 - [772] Umm yeah, drake... Anyone gotten a reply on why its got 10% more thermal and 10% less em armor resist compared to other news bcs which uses standard? Or have I watched outdated screenshots? Dont give me bull about "racial enemies damage or advesarys" (Awaits Harbringer to get 30% explosive base and 20% less em) -_-
OneSock	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:22:00 - [773] Edited by: OneSock on 15/11/2006 17:24:03 Edited by: OneSock on 15/11/2006 17:22:56 Originally by: Nonoffensive Originally by: OneSock OK rather than increase the dronebay, just give it an uber drone HP bonus. That way it would be a waste of time for an opponent to shoot at your drones. This would not change the fact that the Myr is still doing about the dps of a Vexor. The Myr should at least be given a reasonable chance to outdamage its Cruiser varient. 1 extra turret worth of dps and +25m3 of drone space doesn't cut it for something that costs 10x the ISK. As it stands right now the Myr is not a drone boat, it is a Teir 2 BC with 17 slots and a drone bonus. I would like options. Options are good and currently in Kali DPS doesn't win solo fights anyway. OK so tweak up the drone damage bonus. It also has a better tank than the vexor, so it can tank more damage than the vexor and therefore deal out more damage cumulatively. Give it an uber drone hit point bonus so that it is not worth an opponent shooting them and maybe a bit of a damage bonus too to bring them near to but not quite 5x heavy DPS. Surely that's worth your 40 mill ?
Viictoria	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:35:00 - [774] Originally by: Tammarr Umm yeah, drake... Anyone gotten a reply on why its got 10% more thermal and 10% less em armor resist compared to other news bcs which uses standard? Or have I watched outdated screenshots? Dont give me bull about "racial enemies damage or advesarys" (Awaits Harbringer to get 30% explosive base and 20% less em) -_- To make it easier for Amarr to kill?
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:37:00 - [775] Originally by: Tammarr Umm yeah, drake... Anyone gotten a reply on why its got 10% more thermal and 10% less em armor resist compared to other news bcs which uses standard? Or have I watched outdated screenshots? Dont give me bull about "racial enemies damage or advesarys" (Awaits Harbringer to get 30% explosive base and 20% less em) -_- you may want to have a look at base resists of some other t1 ships.
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:53:00 - [776] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Tammarr Umm yeah, drake... Anyone gotten a reply on why its got 10% more thermal and 10% less em armor resist compared to other news bcs which uses standard? Or have I watched outdated screenshots? Dont give me bull about "racial enemies damage or advesarys" (Awaits Harbringer to get 30% explosive base and 20% less em) -_- you may want to have a look at base resists of some other t1 ships. I would guess I've missed something obvious? =) Its just seemed strange only drake had a change, and with it being thermal a good... lifeprolonger.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 18:00:00 - [777] Racial Armor resists. Base Armor resists are 60/10/25/35. Matari get 10% to EM, 70/10/25/35 Amarr get 10% to EXP, 60/20/25/35 Gallente get 10% to KIN, 60/10/35/35 Caldari get 10% to THERM, 60/10/25/45 ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.11.15 18:33:00 - [778] /me feels like an uter fool and wonders how he failed to note/hear the differences earlier and also missed the differences on all 4 bcs lined out when he noticed it. Hmmm, I think I'll go hide awhile until the forum posters have forgotten about this that is now my shame to carry with me till I die...
Nonoffensive Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:08:00 - [779] Originally by: OneSock OK so tweak up the drone damage bonus. It also has a better tank than the vexor, so it can tank more damage than the vexor and therefore deal out more damage cumulatively. Give it an uber drone hit point bonus so that it is not worth an opponent shooting them and maybe a bit of a damage bonus too to bring them near to but not quite 5x heavy DPS. Surely that's worth your 40 mill ? So basically give it heavy drones that move like mediums? Like some previous posters, I do not see anything unreasonable about allowing the Myr to field heavy drones. I also see nothing wrong with 6 turret slots. The DPS charts show it puts it in line with the other BCs only while running an extremely close range blaster setup. At the same time, the bigger drone bay allows it to deploy a variety of drones, making it an actual drone ship, instead of just 2 sets of mediums. 10 hammerhead II's are going to run 20+ mil ISK themselves and there's your 60 mil for a dominix right there.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:35:00 - [780] Edited by: Aki Yamato on 15/11/2006 19:41:22 Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: HankMurphy [Now, onto the Caldari drake. You said... Originally by: Tuxford Drake is a monster as well, although filling the med slots with shield mods, and the low slots with ganking gets you a bit skewed image on how good it is. ..skewed image? Hmm... so then we are going to assume that that particular setup is rediculous and NOT how ppl are actually gonna kit it out? lol, just lol.... No what I mean is don't fit a Drake with just gank and tank and then compare it to battlecruiser with guns/tackling/tank. Its not fair. But even so, I'd still say Drake is pretty much pwnage, even when splitting its medslots between tank and tackling. So witch way are you going to harm him ? Reduce CPU ? Decrease medslots ? Replace rezist bonus to missile speed bonus ? Increase shield recharge time ? Decrease powergrid ? (I prefer this, just behind making rest ships same great) Replace RoF bonus to kinetic dmg ? Everyone wants nerf drake an yea it great ship (finaly after 3 crappy caldari BC class ships), but how to make bit less great without making it another pice of flying junk. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE

Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:39:00 - [781] Edited by: Aramendel on 15/11/2006 19:42:03 Originally by: Kruel Something that often isn't taken into account is that even IF the Myr were to do more raw DPS on paper than the other BCs, in a realistic situation it wouldn't. Every time a drone is shot, the Myr pilot would have to call the drone back. DPS goes down. The further the drone has to travel will effect the overall drone DPS even more. While the Myr does need some love this reasoning is flawed. Where do you think the shots at the drone come from? Out of thin air? Yes, if your enemy tries to kill a drone you have to call it back and as result your dps suffers temporary. But so does your enemies dps, because he is not shooting at you, but at the drone (doh! ). Originally by: Aki Yamato So witch way are you going to harm him ? Reduce CPU ? Decrease medslots ? Replace rezist bonus to missile speed bonus ? Increase shield recharge time ? Decrease powergrid ? Replace RoF bonus to kinetic dmg ? Everyone wants nerf drake an yea it great ship (finaly after 3 crappy caldari BC class ships), but how to make bit less great without making it another pice of flying junk. Personally I would say: 6 launchers. The nighthawk has only 6, too, after all.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:49:00 - [782] Edited by: keepiru on 15/11/2006 19:49:25 That's because the NH has since its inception needed 7 launchers and a RoF bonus. They've done 1/2 of it, now they need the other 1/2. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:56:00 - [783] Edited by: HankMurphy on 15/11/2006 19:57:39 Originally by: Tuxford No what I mean is don't fit a Drake with just gank and tank and then compare it to battlecruiser with guns/tackling/tank. Its not fair. But even so, I'd still say Drake is pretty much pwnage, even when splitting its medslots between tank and tackling. Thats what I was looking for! And I dont necessarily hate all caldari coughsnicker*, but i'm very cautions of the drake (new raven). Missiles were just toned down and not sure what to expect from the 'new raven' and the new missiles to go w/ it. None of these BC's will be fit the same of course, and I often notice that missile platforms will often rely on a tank/gank leaving the tackling/EW jobs up to their gang mates, so that scenario really isn't going to be as uncommon. Often due to their lesser speed, they are a more static entitiy in a fight than a blaster/AC/pulse ship. Your going to be much more likely to see a hurricane running around w/ a scram or a web than a drank I would imagine. So I would expect to see her kitted out in that manner than any of the others.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:12:00 - [784] Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 15/11/2006 19:57:39 Originally by: Tuxford No what I mean is don't fit a Drake with just gank and tank and then compare it to battlecruiser with guns/tackling/tank. Its not fair. But even so, I'd still say Drake is pretty much pwnage, even when splitting its medslots between tank and tackling. Thats what I was looking for! And I dont necessarily hate all caldari coughsnicker, but i'm very cautions of the drake (new raven). Missiles were just toned down and not sure what to expect from the 'new raven' and the new missiles to go w/ it. None of these BC's will be fit the same of course, and I often notice that missile platforms will often rely on a tank/gank leaving the tackling/EW jobs up to their gang mates, so that scenario really isn't going to be as uncommon. Often due to their lesser speed, they are a more static entitiy in a fight than a blaster/AC/pulse ship. Your going to be much more likely to see a hurricane running around w/ a scram or a web than a drank I would imagine. So I would expect to see her kitted out in that manner than any of the others. Not if the drake is fitting HAMs. Heavy Assault Missiles have[aside from javs] A very short range. Drakes fitting them will most likly not be mission running[because it would be faster to just fit heavies and pick up the pieces later]. So a combat drake fitting HAMs is probably going to fit an MWD[get in range for HAMs], a Scrambler [Keep them from warping], and a web[stop them to increase missile damage and keep them from running out of scram range]. The arguement "get a tackler" is not a good arguement. Tacklers are extra ships, while a drake can fit a big ol' massive shield tank on it, doing so in a realistic situation is going to be uncommon. That or they will have to have an extra ship with them. However, if the drake gets an extra ship in its strength calculations, then why dont the ships we are comparing them to?* A Harbinger with a tacker is going to not need that scram and web, freeing up 2 mid slots[injector/MWD in the other] for sensor damps, boosters, or tracking disruptors. A Hurricane will have 3 mid slots[MWD in the other], leaving it open for 3 sensor damps, or 2+ a booster. A Myrmadon gets the same, but it will have 4 mid slots[or is it 5 now?] with which to fit damps/cap rechargers/batteries for their tank to keep running.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:16:00 - [785] Originally by: Aramendel Personally I would say: 6 launchers. The nighthawk has only 6, too, after all. So we dont need another NH right? An come on we dont want any speedles, large signature, tanking ship without recent dmg, we already have ferox for this purpose. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:30:00 - [786] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 15/11/2006 19:57:39 Originally by: Tuxford No what I mean is don't fit a Drake with just gank and tank and then compare it to battlecruiser with guns/tackling/tank. Its not fair. But even so, I'd still say Drake is pretty much pwnage, even when splitting its medslots between tank and tackling. Thats what I was looking for! And I dont necessarily hate all caldari coughsnicker, but i'm very cautions of the drake (new raven). Missiles were just toned down and not sure what to expect from the 'new raven' and the new missiles to go w/ it. None of these BC's will be fit the same of course, and I often notice that missile platforms will often rely on a tank/gank leaving the tackling/EW jobs up to their gang mates, so that scenario really isn't going to be as uncommon. Often due to their lesser speed, they are a more static entitiy in a fight than a blaster/AC/pulse ship. Your going to be much more likely to see a hurricane running around w/ a scram or a web than a drank I would imagine. So I would expect to see her kitted out in that manner than any of the others. Not if the drake is fitting HAMs. Heavy Assault Missiles have[aside from javs] A very short range. Drakes fitting them will most likly not be mission running[because it would be faster to just fit heavies and pick up the pieces later]. So a combat drake fitting HAMs is probably going to fit an MWD[get in range for HAMs], a Scrambler [Keep them from warping], and a web[stop them to increase missile damage and keep them from running out of scram range]. The arguement "get a tackler" is not a good arguement. Tacklers are extra ships, while a drake can fit a big ol' massive shield tank on it, doing so in a realistic situation is going to be uncommon. That or they will have to have an extra ship with them. However, if the drake gets an extra ship in its strength calculations, then why dont the ships we are comparing them to?* A Harbinger with a tacker is going to not need that scram and web, freeing up 2 mid slots[injector/MWD in the other] for sensor damps, boosters, or tracking disruptors. A Hurricane will have 3 mid slots[MWD in the other], leaving it open for 3 sensor damps, or 2+ a booster. A Myrmadon gets the same, but it will have 4 mid slots[or is it 5 now?] with which to fit damps/cap rechargers/batteries for their tank to keep running. wow, ok. Well drake would have to change ammo, i doubt ppl will gimp their shield tank and cap w/ a mwd. Not if an ammo change or not using HAMs (hvy msls aren't going anywhere) can accomplish the same offensive ability. The rest of the argument is elementary, i'm not comparing one BC vs drake w/ tackler. Just looking at the final results of what a ship is capable of. I dont think i'm the only person around that thinks the drakes defensive abilities may be a bit high w/ its possible damage output at almost any range. Of course different weaps / fittins will have different drawbacks, thats given. You CAN articulate your argument w/o going into every possible scenario. Bottom line is i think missile ability is fire and forget (sure, HAMs may change that, but i doubt it) and any ship that gets THAT along w/ the highest possible tank of all the new BCs (drake gives a BS a run for its money) needs to, at the least, be looked at twice.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:37:00 - [787] Originally by: Goumindong Not if the drake is fitting HAMs. Heavy Assault Missiles have[aside from javs] A very short range. Drakes fitting them will most likly not be mission running[because it would be faster to just fit heavies and pick up the pieces later]. Exept there are HAM javs. Which have ATM a rediculous range. Even if they get balanced and get an similar rangeboost compared to their t1 versions as jav rockets and torps get they will still have a range of 40 km, which should be plenty for the majority of the PvP the Drake will engage in. In exchange they deal 10% less dps, yes, but that is about the same what turrets get when switching from the best t1 ammo to their t2 longrange ammo. It should be for a drake better to switch to jav ammo if it gets outrange than nerfing it's cap (and fitting) with a MWD.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.15 20:49:00 - [788] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/11/2006 20:51:43 Originally by: HankMurphy wow, ok. Well drake would have to change ammo, i doubt ppl will gimp their shield tank and cap w/ a mwd. Not if an ammo change or not using HAMs (hvy msls aren't going anywhere) can accomplish the same offensive ability. The rest of the argument is elementary, i'm not comparing one BC vs drake w/ tackler. Just looking at the final results of what a ship is capable of. I dont think i'm the only person around that thinks the drakes defensive abilities may be a bit high w/ its possible damage output at almost any range. Of course different weaps / fittins will have different drawbacks, thats given. You CAN articulate your argument w/o going into every possible scenario. Bottom line is i think missile ability is fire and forget (sure, HAMs may change that, but i doubt it) and any ship that gets THAT along w/ the highest possible tank of all the new BCs (drake gives a BS a run for its money) needs to, at the least, be looked at twice. Because we are discussing the ship in a PvP setting, for mission running it doubt it will be better than a raven. Cheaper yes, but not really better. The balance of the ship mainly comes when figuring for pvp. When doing PvP, you need two things. 1. Enough DPS to kill something before it warps 2. Enough tank to not die before your opponent. You can achieve number 1 by either A: Doing so much DPS that your opponent explodes before he can allign Or B: Increasing the time it takes him to warp to infinity with a warp scrambler. and number 2 by fitting a tank. But if you dont do 1 and 2, then the entire DPS/Tank calculations are worthless, because you cant kill anything. The arguement that the drake is "superomgawesome" relies on the drake fitting a big ol shield tank and a respectable gank at the same time. Now, if we give the drake that big ol shield tank, when comparing other ships we have to give them the same slot advantage of not having to fit scrams/webs on their ships. That means EW for the most part[or cap batteries/boosters/tracking/etc]. This is why comparing fits of the drake that have big ol passive shield tanks against fits of the other three that have MWD/Scram/web/(injector) isnt so easy. Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Goumindong Not if the drake is fitting HAMs. Heavy Assault Missiles have[aside from javs] A very short range. Drakes fitting them will most likly not be mission running[because it would be faster to just fit heavies and pick up the pieces later]. Exept there are HAM javs. Which have ATM a rediculous range. Even if they get balanced and get an similar rangeboost compared to their t1 versions as jav rockets and torps get they will still have a range of 40 km, which should be plenty for the majority of the PvP the Drake will engage in. In exchange they deal 10% less dps, yes, but that is about the same what turrets get when switching from the best t1 ammo to their t2 longrange ammo. It should be for a drake better to switch to jav ammo if it gets outrange than nerfing it's cap (and fitting) with a MWD. Yea, but again, then it needs a tackler or someone else to be in range with a 20km scram. And again, it still cant kill anything without that scram because it cant keep things in range and comparing it to pvp fits with scrams/webs of the other BC's is ridiculous.
Viictoria	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:17:00 - [789] Originally by: Goumindong This is why comparing fits of the drake that have big ol passive shield tanks against fits of the other three that have MWD/Scram/web/(injector) isnt so easy. I've been trying to push this point about the Drake, as similar to other super-shield tankers (basically the other BC hulls) it simply can't lock anything down without destroying it's tankability. Passive tank relies on so many slots you cannot do ANYTHING else with it, that includes dmg mods / scrambling / any kind of EWAR. So you're stuck with what limited weapons you can fit leftover from that. And active tanking it means it becomes heavily cap-reliant so it can't use javs, and can probably just get away with an MWD. Also I see the typical complaint about "oh noes missiles are too easy fire-and-forget" is all too prevelant when it comes to this ship. Perhaps people need to forget about the ship and start brainstorming about anti-missiles mods or something, because defenders are "broken" (maybe cause it takes more than one to kill a torp? lol) and missiles are just too good in PvP or something , and people whine just as much about the Raven if not more than the Drake.
haq aan	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:33:00 - [790] Afaik we have only less than 2 weeks for the Kali release.So I want to hear your suggestions for thoose overpowered and underpowered tier III BC s ,..while keeping other BC s,Commands,HAC s, or whatever in mind. My solution d be : Hurricane : Perhaps the only BC that is ' OK ' Harbinger : A slight increase on cap size and its Perfect. Drake : Drop 1 launcher , modify PG slightly. Myr : %10 hp/dmg bonus to meds & lights only 150 m3 drone bay 7-4-6 slot layout. (If its gonna be 6-5-6, it will have a total of 11 med/low slots apart from the other tier 3's which have a total of 10...so keep that in mind most Gal.'s wanna see her as a drone boat...Since i couldnt find the chance to test it out but i must say; I am not sure that ' +1 ' slot,is an advantage or not...So some test pilots may be more accurate. It d also be nice to hear whats good or bad in my suggestions, with a reasonable explanation. Thank you for your efforts... haq aan - Alectorophobia

Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:33:00 - [791] Edited by: Aki Yamato on 15/11/2006 21:39:03 Edited by: Aki Yamato on 15/11/2006 21:38:15 Edited by: Aki Yamato on 15/11/2006 21:35:53 So questions for drake nerf whiners, what is most problematic setup on drake ? exp: 6x HAM 3x Large shield extender 3x Invul field 4x PDU Imo problem with drake is not drake itself but HAM as they are now. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:45:00 - [792] Originally by: haq aan Drake : Drop 1 launcher , modify PG slightly. Why do wee need cheaper version of NH ? My suggestion is to decrease PG, to make pilots choose between HAM, shield extenders and DMG mods. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Vaedon	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:13:00 - [793] If I understand correctly, popular opinion says the Myr needs more DPS than the Vexor, which people run 5 meds in, and less DPS than a Dominix, which runs 5 heavys. If it were somehow possible (either through ship bonuses or the ability to fit one or two drone control units or something else) to run 6 or 7 (medium or light) drones instead of just 5, would that be a decent middle ground for DPS? Additionally, increase the drone bay to 120m3 (thus avoiding the dreaded 5 heavys). 120m3 would allow for two flights of 6 mediums, or 3 flights 7 lights. Or am I thinking too far outside of the box? lol
Nonoffensive Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.15 22:32:00 - [794] Originally by: Vaedon If I understand correctly, popular opinion says the Myr needs more DPS than the Vexor, which people run 5 meds in, and less DPS than a Dominix, which runs 5 heavys. ... Additionally, increase the drone bay to 120m3 (thus avoiding the dreaded 5 heavys). 120m3 would allow for two flights of 6 mediums, or 3 flights 7 lights. Or am I thinking too far outside of the box? lol If you think the only DPS available to a Domi is 5 heavies, you are still thinking inside the box.
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:05:00 - [795] Ok myrmidon.... i've been doing some thinking and lets be honest, its not a tier 2 BC. Its a big vexor, awesome, what i always wanted, but its not all that much better than a brutix... this is because it seems to follow the same pattern of thorax > vexor despite its damage bonus... i dont care if the myr stays how it is. i LIKE it how it is, but if its going to be 30 mil i wont fly one. and if its going to be 40 mil i'll buy a domi instead and use that to eat all the assfaces in drakes. I think that just cos its tier2, it should not get an automatic price increase... maybe make it easy to build... so player corps can lower the cost (which stops t2 whoring, as building t1 stuff seems pointless at the moment... small profit = suck.) allow people to build them for about 20 mil... maybe slightly less, hell even nerf the myr a bit but MAKE IT CHEAP. theres no logical progression from vexor to myr... the cost increase will mean that only veterans will be flying them (noobies cant just go to it in a week or 2 like the vexor...) and losing one will hurt... a lot... given its slowness and lack of DPS i can see myself getting pack raped often at gates in that thing. the vexor is slow and even with nos has a crap tank. thorax all round dominates it, even with a 50% drone bonus on the vexor its hard to compete. BUT this is ok.. because its a level 2 cruiser, thorax is level 3, unfortunately we're seeing the opposite happen with the myr and its choking because of it.... so. MAKE IT CHEAP. LEAVE IT HOW IT IS. and i will love and cherish it as my new PVP baby forever.... i mean come on 40 mil? theres no way it could be that much... right? please? oh god please?
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:09:00 - [796] Originally by: Katabrok First Originally by: Akiman Originally by: Ithildin No, Jim McGregor, the Myrmidon isn't great like the others are. Originally by: Pinky Denmark afaik the Myrmod had a change in slot design to help it out... +1 turret, -2 high, +1 low. Didn't help it one bit, cause they forgot +150m¦ drone bay after all they gave us a tank ship...we'll tank like hell till we dieee!!! :P :P :P they all got pwn ships and we got a tanker...marvelous! couse they gave us brutix in the first place?!? thats explains ccp didnt think bout anything for tier II bcs...if they knew things would not go like this... got an idea make brutix tier II add more pg hp and stuff make myrmidon tier I... :P I said it some 3 pages ago, and I absolutely agree with you. Brutix for Tier 2 Gal BC now. Vote you too. lets all jump on the tier 1 myr bandwagon =D Cheap drone bcs for allllll!!!!! /signed.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:15:00 - [797] Originally by: haq aan Afaik we have only less than 2 weeks for the Kali release.So I want to hear your suggestions for thoose overpowered and underpowered tier III BC s ,..while keeping other BC s,Commands,HAC s, or whatever in mind. My solution d be : Hurricane : Perhaps the only BC that is ' OK ' Harbinger : A slight increase on cap size and its Perfect. Drake : Drop 1 launcher , modify PG slightly. Myr : %10 hp/dmg bonus to meds & lights only 150 m3 drone bay 7-4-6 slot layout. (If its gonna be 6-5-6, it will have a total of 11 med/low slots apart from the other tier 3's which have a total of 10...so keep that in mind most Gal.'s wanna see her as a drone boat...Since i couldnt find the chance to test it out but i must say; I am not sure that ' +1 ' slot,is an advantage or not...So some test pilots may be more accurate. It d also be nice to hear whats good or bad in my suggestions, with a reasonable explanation. Thank you for your efforts... haq aan - Alectorophobia How can you call the the Hurricane "OK" and then say that the Harbinger needs "slightly more cap size" in order to be perfect?
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:40:00 - [798] Now that the Harbinger has a +dam instead of +rof, please give it back the 8th turret slot it so desperately needs as well as the grid/cpu to fit it. The model also looks incredibly lame with only 7 turrets. That big gaping empty spot on the front of the ship is incredibly annoying. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.16 05:30:00 - [799] Originally by: Nyxus Now that the Harbinger has a +dam instead of +rof, please give it back the 8th turret slot it so desperately needs as well as the grid/cpu to fit it. The model also looks incredibly lame with only 7 turrets. That big gaping empty spot on the front of the ship is incredibly annoying. Nyxus It has a damage bonus instead of ROF? Where has that been announced? On test atm it's still ROF. Because I said so...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.16 06:01:00 - [800] Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: murder one Originally by: Nyxus Now that the Harbinger has a +dam instead of +rof, please give it back the 8th turret slot it so desperately needs as well as the grid/cpu to fit it. The model also looks incredibly lame with only 7 turrets. That big gaping empty spot on the front of the ship is incredibly annoying. Nyxus It's still listed as ROF, but was changed to damage if you look at the numbers. Check the damage mods on the guns. I think Keepiru calculated that it means 8% less damage, but 25% less cap use. Nyxus It has a damage bonus instead of ROF? Where has that been announced? On test atm it's still ROF. ty ty Because I said so...

Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.11.16 07:06:00 - [801] Originally by: Vaedon If I understand correctly, popular opinion says the Myr needs more DPS than the Vexor, which people run 5 meds in, and less DPS than a Dominix, which runs 5 heavys. If it were somehow possible (either through ship bonuses or the ability to fit one or two drone control units or something else) to run 6 or 7 (medium or light) drones instead of just 5, would that be a decent middle ground for DPS? Additionally, increase the drone bay to 120m3 (thus avoiding the dreaded 5 heavys). 120m3 would allow for two flights of 6 mediums, or 3 flights 7 lights. Or am I thinking too far outside of the box? lol not really, I posted something similar on page 6-9 Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.11.16 07:11:00 - [802] Originally by: Torment Edited by: Torment on 15/11/2006 09:25:09 Tux after testing against the tier II BC in my astarte i have found that the Command ships(The Astarte in this point)really do struggle against them...My Astarte went through all its cap 800 boosters and actually had to warp off against a Drake on my other account. Maybe a slight boost is in order for all Command ships,Because as of now they are really close to the new BC...maybe too close Great... just fracking great. And I have trained Command Ships lvl5. "It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö" PERVS \o/
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.16 07:39:00 - [803] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Torment Edited by: Torment on 15/11/2006 09:25:09 Tux after testing against the tier II BC in my astarte i have found that the Command ships(The Astarte in this point)really do struggle against them...My Astarte went through all its cap 800 boosters and actually had to warp off against a Drake on my other account. Maybe a slight boost is in order for all Command ships,Because as of now they are really close to the new BC...maybe too close Great... just fracking great. And I have trained Command Ships lvl5. On the plus side, you can hop into any command ship in about 25 days.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 09:23:00 - [804] Originally by: Goumindong Yea, but again, then it needs a tackler or someone else to be in range with a 20km scram. And again, it still cant kill anything without that scram because it cant keep things in range and comparing it to pvp fits with scrams/webs of the other BC's is ridiculous. Yes. But the thing is: BCs are not exactly the most effective tacklers. Slow targeting & low speed. Unless your target does not pay attention the only ship a single BC can relieably tackle is a BS. And probably other BCs with a ~50:50 chance depending how far they come out of warp. So regardless which BC people are flying, having an inty tackler is always a very good idea. And a Drake will still blow the other BCs out of the water when they do not use any meds for tackling gear.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:52:00 - [805] Originally by: Kruel Something that often isn't taken into account is that even IF the Myr were to do more raw DPS on paper than the other BCs, in a realistic situation it wouldn't. Every time a drone is shot, the Myr pilot would have to call the drone back. DPS goes down. The further the drone has to travel will effect the overall drone DPS even more. Big time. Because I said so...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 11:01:00 - [806] Originally by: murder one Big time. To repeat what I answered that poster - if a drone is shot at you need something which shoots it. That dps is not coming out of thin air. By shooting at drones you will reduce the myrs dps AND your dps. So effeciently it won't really put the myr in any dps disadvantage vs the other ship. Unless it only sends 1 single warrior on a drone, but then the myr can take it's time to recall it.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.16 11:19:00 - [807] Originally by: Vaedon If I understand correctly, popular opinion says the Myr needs more DPS than the Vexor, which people run 5 meds in, and less DPS than a Dominix, which runs 5 heavys. If it were somehow possible (either through ship bonuses or the ability to fit one or two drone control units or something else) to run 6 or 7 (medium or light) drones instead of just 5, would that be a decent middle ground for DPS? Additionally, increase the drone bay to 120m3 (thus avoiding the dreaded 5 heavys). 120m3 would allow for two flights of 6 mediums, or 3 flights 7 lights. Or am I thinking too far outside of the box? lol No, I'm afraid you're pretty much firmly inside the box. Sorry. Vexor DPS is 5 medium drones plus 4 medium turrets WITH damage bonus Dominix DPS is 5 heavy drones plus 6 large turrets WITH damage bonus The drone DPS is only part of the equation with these ships. Those guns with damage bonuses matter, a lot. 6 large blasters with +20-25% damage bonus hurts. So, with heavies Myrmidon would be 5 heavy drones plus 6 medium turrets with NO damage bonus. That's slightly above the DPS of the other tier2's so balance things out by removing 1-2 turrets. End result: 5 x heavy drones plus 4-5 med turrets with NO damage bonus. Balanced and works as a drone boat, not a bad-at-drones-and-turrets hybrid with no role in battle other than "tank a bit and then die". See Sacrilege and **ation for the end results of that brilliant ship design philosophy... Anyone using terms like "the dreaded 5 heavies" does not really understand drone ships. For a ship of this class, the DPS of 5 heavy drones isn't anything special. Hell, the Ishtar gets almost 3 full waves** of heavies (with drone damage bonus), and it gets a drone range bonus, and it also has a gun damage bonus! Compare to Myrmidon which is supposed to be a drone bc, and you see how pitiful the Myrmidon is as a drone boat -- or as anything else, since the Brutix outperforms it by a mile in the gun department. Why is it that the Myrmidon only compares to the other tier2's in full-gank mode with minimal tank, while the others are in balanced gank/tank mode? In it's current state, the Myrmidon is not worth flying, especially compared to the borderline-overpowered other tier2 bcs. In addition, all the others can stand toe-to-toe with their race-respective HACs, sometimes outperforming them. The comparison of Myrmidon and Ishtar just underlines how crappy the Myrmidon is, it's close to being "no comparison even possible". Why can the Ishtar wield multiple waves of heavy drones and still be balanced with the other HACs (good at 1-vs-1 and closerange, not so good elsewhere), while somehow the Myrmidon is supposed to wield medium drones as primary weapon, against battlecruisers to boot? It does not work, as multiple calculations and practical tests have shown. The Myrmidon currently loses against any of the other 3 tier2's, unless the enemy pilot is an idiot. Hell, it even loses against some of the tier1 bcs. Hooray. It either needs those heavy drones, or the other new battlecruisers need to be nerfed. Simple as that. And no, I would not especially like to see a nerf.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.16 11:42:00 - [808] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: murder one Big time. To repeat what I answered that poster - if a drone is shot at you need something which shoots it. That dps is not coming out of thin air. By shooting at drones you will reduce the myrs dps AND your dps. So effeciently it won't really put the myr in any dps disadvantage vs the other ship. Unless it only sends 1 single warrior on a drone, but then the myr can take it's time to recall it. Ummm, what? The Myrmidon can currently only wield 4 heavies, with no spares. Sure, it takes some extra effort to kill a drone, but every drone you kill of those 4 means a huge permanent drop to DPS. Without the drones, and with no spares, the Myrmidon DPS is pitiful. So tell me again how I can permanently kill the primary weapon systems of the other ships, especially now with ECM fixed to only work properly on ECM-specialist ships?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.16 12:59:00 - [809] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: murder one Big time. To repeat what I answered that poster - if a drone is shot at you need something which shoots it. That dps is not coming out of thin air. By shooting at drones you will reduce the myrs dps AND your dps. So effeciently it won't really put the myr in any dps disadvantage vs the other ship. Unless it only sends 1 single warrior on a drone, but then the myr can take it's time to recall it. Ummm, what? The Myrmidon can currently only wield 4 heavies, with no spares. Sure, it takes some extra effort to kill a drone, but every drone you kill of those 4 means a huge permanent drop to DPS. Without the drones, and with no spares, the Myrmidon DPS is pitiful. So tell me again how I can permanently kill the primary weapon systems of the other ships, especially now with ECM fixed to only work properly on ECM-specialist ships? NOS/Neut.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.16 13:52:00 - [810] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: murder one Big time. To repeat what I answered that poster - if a drone is shot at you need something which shoots it. That dps is not coming out of thin air. By shooting at drones you will reduce the myrs dps AND your dps. So effeciently it won't really put the myr in any dps disadvantage vs the other ship. Unless it only sends 1 single warrior on a drone, but then the myr can take it's time to recall it. Ummm, what? The Myrmidon can currently only wield 4 heavies, with no spares. Sure, it takes some extra effort to kill a drone, but every drone you kill of those 4 means a huge permanent drop to DPS. Without the drones, and with no spares, the Myrmidon DPS is pitiful. So tell me again how I can permanently kill the primary weapon systems of the other ships, especially now with ECM fixed to only work properly on ECM-specialist ships? NOS/Neut. Doesn't effect missiles or projectiles. Try again. Zarch AlDain

Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 13:54:00 - [811] Edited by: Aramendel on 16/11/2006 14:01:25 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Ummm, what? The Myrmidon can currently only wield 4 heavies, with no spares. Sure, it takes some extra effort to kill a drone, but every drone you kill of those 4 means a huge permanent drop to DPS. Without the drones, and with no spares, the Myrmidon DPS is pitiful. So tell me again how I can permanently kill the primary weapon systems of the other ships, especially now with ECM fixed to only work properly on ECM-specialist ships? That particular comment was about recalling drones BEFORE they get killed (in order to avoid them getting killed) and the resulting dps loss because they spend some time in transit and do not shoot the other ship all the time. Original comment: Originally by: Kruel Something that often isn't taken into account is that even IF the Myr were to do more raw DPS on paper than the other BCs, in a realistic situation it wouldn't. Every time a drone is shot, the Myr pilot would have to call the drone back. DPS goes down. The further the drone has to travel will effect the overall drone DPS even more. Does it says anything about destroyed drones? No? It was referring about the dps reduction droneships get when they juggled drones. But, as said, if a droneship has to juggle them the enemy ship is also focussing some of it's dps on them, so both ships get a dps reduction. So that particular argument is not really valid. Does not mean that the myr does not need an 150-225m¦ dronebay, though.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.11.16 14:24:00 - [812] NOS it and keep it nossed. Drones dissadvantages come aoong wiht nice advantages :)
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:22:00 - [813] It takes a bit longer to recall/redeploy a drone than the time it takes to fire one missile. At a range of 10k you're looking at 15-20 seconds for recalling/redeploying a single drone.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:32:00 - [814] Originally by: Kruel It takes a bit longer to recall/redeploy a drone than the time it takes to fire one missile. At a range of 10k you're looking at 15-20 seconds for recalling/redeploying a single drone. I should've clarified, I was talking about a slowboating OgreII. Also, remote reps are crap. If they had a lot more range, they might be useful for drone ships.
Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:00:00 - [815] Edited by: Vladimir Tinakin on 16/11/2006 17:02:22 Scanned the thread, but haven't seen this... Drake is now 6 launcher slots, and the RoF bonus is exchanged with a 5% Kinetic bonus. CPU/Grid is now 525/850. Slots are 4/6/8, Launcher/Turret 6/3 Honestly, its been pretty badly nerfed...I can see the grid reduction--forces you to go tank or gank--but the RoF to Kinetic change along with the loss of a launcher gimps the DPS badly. And the 5% kinetic is a joke. If we're going to lose the RoF bonus, at least change it to a 10% damage boost. Even the Caracal gets that. ----------------------------------------------- Vice Adm Vladimir Tinakin Logistics CO Hadean Drive Yards
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:20:00 - [816] Very needed changes. It just loses a missile hardpoint and can still mount 8 weapons. It's just that 2 of them won't be bonused. Big frigging deal. The kinetic bonus instead of RoF means an mere 8% damage loss, but a 33% damage loss if you wants to vary damage types, which is still a low price to pay seeing as how Amarr and Gal can't even do that. On the other hand, now you justs fit 2 Nos instead of 1 I guess?
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:26:00 - [817] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 16/11/2006 17:27:20 well the new bcs look a lot better all of a sudden. havent checked on their new damage output yet but i always found them to be too good compared to the tier 1 bcs. then again us amarrians only had the prophecy to compare to. apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though. edit: hurricane lost 1 turret slot btw.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:31:00 - [818] Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 17:33:37 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Very needed changes. It just loses a missile hardpoint and can still mount 8 weapons. It's just that 2 of them won't be bonused. Big frigging deal. The kinetic bonus instead of RoF means an mere 8% damage loss, but a 33% damage loss if you wants to vary damage types Hahahahaha... hahaha. Excuse me, I know this a personal question but... you're on drugs, right? You obv. haven't tried fitting anything but launchers in the ** thing. Please do. You'll find once you're done with the launchers you'll need help just to fit an afterburner and a shield booster. That's why every setup for this ship that was thrown around before had NOTHING in the spare high, and will keep having nothing now. As for the damage, it was already the lowest-damaging BC, now it falls into line with every BC since they were 1st released that does not outdamage its type-equivalent HAC. Which is to say, its a waste of database entries, JUST LIKE THE FEROX. Originally by:** Udyr Vulpayne apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though. Hate to disappoint you but they haven't. Cap and cap recharge time has been increased by 50% accorss the board, cap/sec is unchanged, differences between ships are unchanged in % points. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:50:00 - [819] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though. Hate to disappoint you but they haven't. Cap and cap recharge time has been increased by 50% accorss the board, cap/sec is unchanged, differences between ships are unchanged in % points. oh i'm not really disappointed. a quick 50% boost to all ships is a lot easier to do than to actually increase the cap of each ship according to what is needed by that ship. so the hp boost will still favour ships that dont require cap to fire.
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:54:00 - [820] the drake has been overnerfed HAM Javelin were out of whack, not the drake changing the rof bonus to kinetic dmg is oke and good in my book, but it shouldnt have lost a launcher slot hurricane? ***** joke the change and the broken battleships? no change Originally by:** Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:09:00 - [821] Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 18:11:21 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne oh i'm not really disappointed. a quick 50% boost to all ships is a lot easier to do than to actually increase the cap of each ship according to what is needed by that ship. so the hp boost will still favour ships that dont require cap to fire. Ofc, after all, its too much to expect game desing to address existing problems and use moderation, instead of swinging ships from zomgovepowered to bahusless and leaving trails of broken stuff along the road Oh and the Myrmidon STILL has more grid than the brutix. Really guys, game design and industrial cleaner abuse dont' mix, k? ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:14:00 - [822] ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time... how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good?
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:15:00 - [823] Originally by: Ath Amon ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time... how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good? silly you, Brutix is a gallente ship, they are allowed to be better Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:23:00 - [824] Originally by: Ath Amon ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time... how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good? It never tanked remotely as good. If you want to get a similar plated fit as the Hurricane was able to do with 220s and 3 guns rigs, you had to use electrons and 3 grid rigs. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:42:00 - [825] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 16/11/2006 18:48:05 Okay, now how about giving the Harbinger the Augoror bonuses to continue that extremely popular line of ships? And someone really needs to kill an MC outpost or four, a certain person seems to have way more influence than any player should be allowed to have and might need to be taken down a notch or three from his high perch... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:53:00 - [826] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Ath Amon ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time... how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good? It never tanked remotely as good. If you want to get a similar plated fit as the Hurricane was able to do with 220s and 3 guns rigs, you had to use electrons and 3 grid rigs. for passive high plated i agree but active one is pretty similar
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:13:00 - [827] non-plated tanks are suicidal in kali. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:17:00 - [828] Edited by: Goumindong on 16/11/2006 19:24:10 Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Ath Amon ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time... how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good? It never tanked remotely as good. If you want to get a similar plated fit as the Hurricane was able to do with 220s and 3 guns rigs, you had to use electrons and 3 grid rigs. for passive high plated i agree but active one is pretty similar No its not, the Hurricane can basically always fit at least one plate, and doesnt use cap to fire. Edit: Also, the changes are over the top. The Harbinger was supposed to get another turret, the Hurricane was not supposed to lose one. The Drake lost a launcher slot, not a huge deal... but the ROF bonus? Are you kidding me?
Doweena Caldari Ex Coelis	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:23:00 - [829] What about the fact that even though the Drake has an additional launcher it has less grid than the Ferox?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:24:00 - [830] Originally by: Doweena What about the fact that even though the Drake has an additional launcher it has less grid than the Ferox? It ought to, the Ferox is a rail platform and the drake a missile boat. Rails use more PG than launchers.

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:34:00 - [831] Originally by: Doweena What about the fact that even though the Drake has an additional launcher it has less grid than the Ferox? The Ferox is a gunboat. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Justin Cody Caldari The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:52:00 - [832] great..I thought I was going to like the drake, but now I'm not even going to touch it. Blech!! at least give it the 7th launcher slot back...that would help. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
Nonoffensive Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:08:00 - [833] My 2 cents for what its worth: Undo these last changes, Revise the Shield Recharge on all BCs: Currently Battlecruisers have about 3x the raw shield HP with the recharge rate of a cruiser. This is a perfect opportunity to put the recharge in line with the ships class and should go a long way towards addressing the Drake's huge tank. Don't nerf, boost: Bring up the Myr and Harbringer as necessary to compete with the other BCs. If everything is still over the top, address balance from this point. I am still waiting for the Myr to recieve the bonus it gets from losing a fitting slot I would hope that everyone could agree on these issues.
La Pounania Minmatar Majestic Knights	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:27:00 - [834] nerfed to hell and back he, at first when i saw the new bc i was like: cool, something new to fly, i must admit the drake was overpowered, but what? a kin bonus? and no rof, the launcher ok atleast it still does damage but without the rof its just asgood as the caracal or the ferox fitted with launchers. i am fully bc spec and fly all races but the "new" ships just don't feel new, they feel like a new skin on the screen nothing special now they got smashed. this is just my 2p ______________________________________________________
Doweena Caldari Ex Coelis	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:50:00 - [835] Edited by: Doweena on 16/11/2006 20:50:46 To be honest, after the changes this does kind of feel like a more expensive Ferox. The extra mid slot is very nice, and the damage bonus to kinetic is nice, but as a person who is primarily a mission runner, this hurts me on any mission where I am using non Kinetic missiles. To sum up, if you think that the Drake was overpowered, drop one launcher, but leave the ROF bonus as that helps all missiles, not just the one kind. And where is my Picture? I have been playing to 3 months!!!
Mush Room Caldari Svea Rike Tre Kroner	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:52:00 - [836] The balancing is all backwards, lowering dps of BCs that direly need it only serves to make them useless in PvP where you go down fast anyway when all guns are on you. And don't tell me the Drake can use ecm because it needs every midslot it has for tank+blasterfittings(mwd, scram, web) just to be competetive. The right course of action would be to improve the ships that direly need it (Myrmidon!) instead of nerfing those that need not be nerfed.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:54:00 - [837] Quote: Hahahahaha... hahaha. Excuse me, I know this a personal question but... you're on drugs, right? Not at the moment, no. Quote: You obv. haven't tried fitting anything but launchers in the ** thing. Please do. You'll find once you're done with the launchers you'll need help just to fit an afterburner and a shield booster. That's why every setup for this ship that was thrown around before had NOTHING in the spare high, and will keep having nothing now. Well, see that's the entire issue at hand. You want your six missile slots be as useful as someone else's 8 turret slots. Then on the side us poor Gallente pilots are being told to fit 2x RCU II in our Hyperion just to fit the guns and that we can't have a decent dronebay on the Myrm. Quote: As for the damage, it was already the lowest-damaging BC, now it falls into line with every BC since they were 1st released that does not outdamage its type-equivalent HAC. Lol. Lowest damage? Can I have some of that stuff you're smoking? Quote:** Which is to say, its a waste of database entries, JUST LIKE THE FEROX. And the Deimos and the Hyperion and the Abbadon and the Myrmidon and the...
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:05:00 - [838] Edited by: 2SecondsTilMidnight on 16/11/2006 21:15:40 Drake had the lowest damage potential of the t2 BCs already - THERE WERE MANY MANY GRAPHS THAT VERIFIED THIS. Why can't caldari just have a battlecruiser. Caldari is the only race without a battlecruiser or command ship. THE DRAKE WASN'T TERRIBLY OVERPOWERED BEFORE - I'm serious here. Lower damage and a good tank? Wait, caldari battlecruisers have to complete crap so we can have them be on par with other ships. You guys are worse than square enix at balancing crap, if you don't know what I mean then pick up FFXI and you'll see what I mean. Edited my language, was a bit upset.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.16 21:06:00 - [839] Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 21:08:51 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: You obv. haven't tried fitting anything but launchers in the ** thing. Please do. You'll find once you're done with the launchers you'll need help just to fit an afterburner and a shield booster. That's why every setup for this ship that was thrown around before had NOTHING in the spare high, and will keep having nothing now. Well, see that's the entire issue at hand. You want your six missile slots be as useful as someone else's 8 turret slots. Then on the side us poor Gallente pilots are being told to fit 2x RCU II in our Hyperion just to fit the guns and that we can't have a decent dronebay on the Myrm. Umm, no? Before, 7 launchers did about 75% of 7 guns on the Harb/Hurri. You couldn't realisticaly use the 8th high while the gunships could, but that was ok overall. Now you have 6 launcher slots which do 50-60% of the 7 guns of the harbinger (which has the grid to fit nos in the 8th, since it has multiple weapon tiers) or 6 gun + 2 launcher on the nerfed hurricane, and you still don't have the grid to use the non-launcher highs. Can you see the problem? Originally by:** Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: As for the damage, it was already the lowest-damaging BC, now it falls into line with every BC since they were 1st released that does not outdamage its type-equivalent HAC. Lol. Lowest damage? Can I have some of that stuff you're smoking? Sorry, forgot to be specific: Lowest damage of the tier-2 BCs. Now its outdamages by some tier-1s. Kinetic damage does not count, no1 in their right mind will use kin missiles, its a non-bonus. In effect, the drake is now a ferox that does 20% more damage but can't use the spare highs for nos and has a harder time tanking thanks to the low grid. Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: Which is to say, its a waste of database entries, JUST LIKE THE FEROX. And the Deimos and the Hyperion and the Abbadon and the Myrmidon and the... All the more reason to prevent them from releasing more useless ships. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
haq aan	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:27:00 - [840] Drake was overpowered,..but noone expecting a wrecking dmg from nerfbat. :( Myrmidon still crap. And Monster Hurricane (!) ?...yea; SELEENE wins!...insert coin! 9..8..7..6.. 30 page of tests,arguments,suggestions,brain storm,sh.t loads of player effort who paid for years was just a waste of time...I just cant believe this. haq aan

Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:29:00 - [841] from the looks of it the harbinger and hurricane are a lot more balanced towards each other now. the harbinger finally has a damage advantage to show for the higher fitting + the capneed of its guns. now the drake on the other hand seems to have been hit a bit hard. while i wouldnt say a kinetic missile bonus is useless (its certainly a few times better than an em-missiles bonus) it seems a bit much to change the bonus and remove a laucher at the same time. so maybe 5% rof and 6 launches?
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:30:00 - [842] copied from the R.I.P. thread. probly shoulda just stuck this here to begin w/ well, looks like some swings of the bat have been made since i last was forum whing. at first i wanted to spit at my monitor: "WHY!?!? , gimmie my * turret and PG back!" then i tried to look at the whole thing a bit more subjectively.... Fact of the matter is, we all have high hopes for our respective race's new BC's. That being said, i think the way the drake and the hurricane were before was too much of a threat as replacing current battlefield juggernaughts. They were overpowered a bit. They were near battleships in every sense of the word. I wish i was gonna get uber pwnage w/ my hurricane, BUT I was not being biased as that ship was my own race. However, the drake was right up there w/ her, and since it belonged to another race, it was easy for me to see it was overpowered. If it got the bat, i can understand why minnie's got the bat too. I dont think we want a tech I ship that can ** near out perform the next class above it, and its tech II cousins. In the end i think this will probly be for the best. (omg i cant believe i just said that)
Lobo Noturno	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:45:00 - [843] Well, I have to go back and test everything again... I wish Tux had not hit the hurricane the way he did. I still feel it wasn't overpowered, just fitted the part perfectly, like the Rokh. On the other hand, the Drake needed a nerf, although I feel it was too much.(perhaps if they fix the penalty stacking of the t2 ammo...) Tux ended up nerfing the drake DPS, when the real problem was the drake tanking capability... I hate the rof -> kin dmg bonus change, but I think it's in line with other caldari missile ships. But having just 6 missile turrets, compared to the five the ferox can use...(I hoped the ferox would gain one more turret, and the drake could keep it's 7 missile launchers, with a little less pg to gimp the tanking) Glad to see the Myrmiddon wasn't touched.(sarcastic...) need to check the extra cap on the harbinger(that thing run dry with an amazing frequency...) Lobo
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:46:00 - [844] Thing is, caldari is lacking any ship of the battlecruiser size. Ferox? Its a gunboat that everyone uses as a missleboat because its primary role sucks. Vulture? pretty good tank compared to other CSs but it's damage is practically non existant. Nighthawk? The perhaps one of the ****tiest CSs in the game, the recent change in kali makes the nighthawk still the worst but not AS far behind the game. Was the drake a tad overpowered? Maybe a TAD when using jav HAMs, however when your not using jav HAMs it was fine. Was the drake a MONSTER? No, the DPS of the drake wasn't as high as the other t2 BCs. It did have good a good tank - not command ship good, but still good. Perhaps give the launcher back? Keeping it at 6 launcer and giving the rof back could work. Maybe put it back into 7 launchers/rof bonus and give it 4/5 mids with no shield bonus. You need to give it something - In its current state it just sucks, plain and simple.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:17:00 - [845] Today we came here to say last goodbye to our fellow drake. He will join his ancestors in haven of worst BC class ships in eve. Rest in peace. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:26:00 - [846] Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight Ferox? Its a gunboat that everyone uses as a missleboat because its primary role sucks. or maybe half the race doesn't know how to fly its ships cause they have been so pampered w/ fire and forget they are scared to even look at a railgun? minnie nerf? we will surive, we actually pilot our ships, we adapt both on and off the field (no adapting doesn't mean changing ammo) caldari nerf? may the streets flow with your tears the changes were justified.
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:29:00 - [847] Edited by: Protunia on 16/11/2006 23:30:12 Too many of you did not want to boost the weakest link so now you get the nerf bat :) dont cry you had your chance to work things out but were too selfish in the end. Its a good thing that all BC's are closer now. My Character Stats
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:32:00 - [848] Could anybody place damage graph for updated Drake nerf? I like to see how Caldari sucks. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:01:00 - [849] Originally by: Zixxa Could anybody place damage graph for updated Drake nerf? I like to see how Caldari sucks. Add the hurricane to your sig plz Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:02:00 - [850] ok but don't say anymore that i'm a liar noob drake: old vs new note, this is the base difference whitout damage mods, more the mods higher the difference

Viictoria	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:53:00 - [851] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight Ferox? Its a gunboat that everyone uses as a missleboat because its primary role sucks. or maybe half the race doesn't know how to fly its ships cause they have been so pampered w/ fire and forget they are scared to even look at a railgun? minnie nerf? we will surive, we actually pilot our ships, we adapt both on and off the field (no adapting doesn't mean changing ammo) caldari nerf? may the streets flow with your tears the changes were justified. Hahaha this was cute. But seriously, when Caldari missile ships get the ability to actually, you know, move... then you can say they don't deserve to do damage while standing still.
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:10:00 - [852] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight Ferox? Its a gunboat that everyone uses as a missleboat because its primary role sucks. or maybe half the race doesn't know how to fly its ships cause they have been so pampered w/ fire and forget they are scared to even look at a railgun? minnie nerf? we will surive, we actually pilot our ships, we adapt both on and off the field (no adapting doesn't mean changing ammo) caldari nerf? may the streets flow with your tears the changes were justified. Scared to look at a railgun? I've tried a railgun ferox, theres a reason why not many use it as a gunboat. Take away all but one launcher or all the launchers and add like two turrets then I would change my opinion on the ferox.
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:34:00 - [853] Ya know it's not very often I get mad at a game or something done to a game, because it's just that but screwing up the hurricane, yeah that's just pitiful... I really hope people don't let this one die.
Denrace Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.17 01:39:00 - [854] Originally by: HankMurphy or maybe half the race doesn't know how to fly its ships cause they have been so pampered w/ fire and forget they are scared to even look at a railgun? Dude - youre going about it the wrong way. Reason people fit missiles on a Ferox is that with rails you have PATHETIC DPS. Less than a bleeding Thorax, mate. Rails on a brutix with the extra 2 guns plus a damage bonus means its a better sniper. Just fit a tracking computer or two and bingo, same range as a Rox - but like double the DPS. A Ferox is a HORRID gunship. Den ________________________________________
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:13:00 - [855] Great, now the Caldari have all of their BC's being useless again, just like before! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:15:00 - [856] Stop teef! :o ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
LordZer00 Caldari Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:45:00 - [857] Can't help but wonder what happened to the concept of having the tier 2 Bc's be 'more gank, less tank' oriented.... Drake is now, like the Ferox, All tank and no gank... great... Another frigate killer, just what we needed.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 02:54:00 - [858] Frankly I'm extremely disappointed in the Drake/Hurricane nerf. Why did they have to wreck two perfectly good ships instead of just buffing the other two? All the Myrmidon needed was 250m3 of drone space, and the Harbinger needed 7.5% damage bonus per level, and everything would have been fine. Because I said so...
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:12:00 - [859] from what i have been reading thats simply not the truth. those two had **** near the ability to bring down a BS on their own. Sorry I dont think we need BC's that cost less than a BS taking out BS's 1 on 1. As it is 2 on 1 for sure they will take them down. The other thing was alot of people simply would not give in to letting the drone bay be increased on the myr so the only other choice was to reduce the others to the level of the myr. Again people did this to them selves not being honest and trying to hard to get the upper hand with the new ships. thats too bad maybe next time My Character Stats
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:17:00 - [860] Originally by: Protunia from what i have been reading thats simply not the truth. those two had **** near the ability to bring down a BS on their own. Sorry I dont think we need BC's that cost less than a BS taking out BS's 1 on 1. You have obviously been reading posts by people who need a clue. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!

Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:29:00 - [861] Come you know they were over powered stop playing dumb here. Even the MOD here said they were over powered. Anyhow After reading all the boasting going on over the last weeks I for one am glad they nerfed em. In the end they will be balanced ALL 4 of the new BC's. The game will be much better off for it. My Character Stats
James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:30:00 - [862] Edited by: James Draekn on 17/11/2006 03:30:55 I really wish the Developers of this game would actually listen to what the PLAYERS want and balance from there. Players have been asking for a cheap version of their race's HAC. Ships that compete with a battelship for firepower but tanks alot poorer (what BC are in real life). Their disadvantages being that they are slower and have the sig of battleship (this needs to be balanced). That said, lets lay out the fixes that have been proposed to make ALL BC effective for their mission type. (I added a few changes for amarr to add variety to their ship line). CALDARI Ferox: + 2 turret slots and the grid to enable it to fit 250mm rails, -2 missile slots. This makes it a true railgun platform (adjust CS accordingly). Right now this ship doesn't perform its true role properly, but it makes a awesome tanker. Adjust shield recharge rate. Drake: You had it right when you introduced it. 7 missiles, period (adjust CS accordingly). Balance out the HAMS, since they aren't balanced. Change the resist bonus to a 7.5% shield boost bonus. The only needed adjustment that this ship required was to have its shield recharge rate fixed. Adjust shield recharge rate. Gallente Brutix: Increase capacitor ammount and increase powergrid to allow it to at least fit 7x ion 2's, MWD, Med Armor rep, CAP BOOSTER, decrease sig radius, mass, increase base speed Myrmidon: Where to start, 6 turrets (unbonused) 5 mids 6 lows 5% armor resists per level 10% drone Damage per level 250m3 or greater drone bay Decrease mass, and sig radius, this is supposed to OUTLAST thats why I suggest the resists, the developers added a turret but forgot about the drone bay. This is a DRONE ship make it useful as such. Right now it is neither a drone boat (doesnt have replacements or decent damage), or a gun boat (turrets not bonused). The Gallente want a decent drone boat. Amarr FIXING lasers: EM component of damage on all lasers should be no higher then 60% on the longest range crystals. A more balanced approach would be to start at 60% thermal/40% EM for the closest range crystals and increase the EM component % as the crystal range increases. Since fights last longer now adjust the skill CONTROLLED BURSTS to be 10% per level to turret capacitor consumption, and adjust all amarr ship laser capacitor consumption bonuses to 7.5% Prophecy: +5 missile slots, more capacitor ammount and grid, since amarr are kind of limited on variation make it a split layout with 8 highs 6 turrets/6 missiles. Gives amarr players a bit of variety, and another missile platfom for this class of ships. Harbringer: +1 turret, Up the grid to allow it to fit 8 turrets, increase the capacitor ammount to allow it to be a better active tank, laser cap problem fixed with above suggestion. Minmatar Cyclone: +3 launchers, + 1 turret, up the grid a bit, lower the mass, increase capacitor slightly, lower sig radius. Makes this ship a 6 turret/ 6 missile, very versatile ship. Hurricane: You had it right when you introduced it....... And the rule is..... If its not broken, don't mess with it. But to adjust it a bit for the changes, lower its mass slightly And yes I BOOSTED all the BC, I didn't nerf them. This makes the entire class a cheap option to battleships. They all fullfil the roles assigned to them, it adds 2 new missile BC options, just not as good as the Caldari's. This also allows smaller corporations to field viable fleets with decent damage versus rich corporations. Please listen to what the players want, boost the other ships up to make them work along side of the ones players like. Rather then turn the ones people like into crap. These suggestions combine alot of good ideas to bring this ENTIRE class of ships into its own.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:34:00 - [863] You guys can thank Selene for the Drake nerf as he whined to a dev about it at fanfest. Fun fact: Selene also owns a Cereberus BPO Originally by: Khavi Vetali Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:39:00 - [864] Edited by: keepiru on 17/11/2006 03:40:55 Originally by: Protunia Come you know they were over powered stop playing dumb here. Even the MOD here said they were over powered. I hope you mean dev, mods aren't more qualified than you or I. As for the whether the person in question was right or not - i have terrible news for you, not even eve devs hold the candle of absolute tru7h - there's a fine line between balancing a ship and making it crap. And I'll reinstate what I said. Any BS pilot who loses a ship to a Command Ship, let alone a tech I BC, is a either a nub or was asleep at the wheel. Also, you've just proved you need to buy yourself a clue if you really believed that, even if your following statement didn't prove that you have no right to make comments on these ships: Originally by: Protunia Anyhow After reading all the boasting going on over the last weeks I for one am glad they nerfed em. Did you fly them? No. So you haven't got a clue of what you're talking about, like the majority of the people on these forums. Every single post about the drake was either relating to Javelin HAMs, which are still just as broken and give a cerberus heavy electron blaster damage @ 150km, or Drake setups with 6-slot tanks, which due to the rather obvious lack of any way to hold your enemy, will only kill someone if they're asleep. Originally by: Protunia In the end they will be balanced ALL 4 of the new BC's. The game will be much better off for it. I hope you don't mean balanced like the Ferox, which is to say useless to everyone but NPCers. nubs, and people who run setups that don't use 1 or more of the ship's bonuses. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:49:00 - [865] In truth I see alot of people playing their own angle into these new BC's. Some are more honest then others and some are well... they have their own agenda. I have read through all the posts including many who tested both with and against the new BC's. From all the info I basically see some people looking for a new gank ship and will protect it even if they have to distort the truth. I see others unwilling to admit other New BC's are gimps compared to the others. Wether or not I test them or not has no bearing on what i would like to see. I know for a fact I do not want to see a BC that can take on a BS period. I also know that I want them all to be fairly EQUAL. So yeah based on what I have read from all of you I see this nerf as a good start to balancing these ships. If they buffed the other two then I thin k you would have had to start buffing BS's then..........then........ No sense in making a situation where you have to change the entire game because of 2 ships. better off to bring them down and then test again and see where they stand. As far as the over nerfing goes well see about that After they have been tested and compared. If ones horribly weaker than the others then sure give it a small bump. But if they test fairly close then leave them were they stand. My Character Stats
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:16:00 - [866] Originally by: Protunia I know for a fact I do not want to see a BC that can take on a BS period. ... tell me, how exactly is a ship with 1/2 the dps and half the tank going to solo a BS? because that's what the best of the BCs have. if you seriously believe even for a second that a realistic setup with speed mod, web & scram could have taken on a BS and gotten anything but a freshly-drawn pint of OMGWTFPWN, you're delusional. i'll draw you a graph of the harbinger (highest damage BC) vs your typical close-range bs so you can realize the exact extent of the stupidity of such a claim. Linkage Look at that and tell me exactly a ship with 65% the damage, half the tank, half the HP, half the cap, and 75% the signature radius is going to kill a BS, unless the BS pilot rides the short bus? ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:18:00 - [867] My suggestions would allow them to have decent firepower, but no BS should go down to them solo. I'm not looking for omgBBQpwn machines, I just want the ENTIRE class, all 8 ships to be viable damage dealers at the expense of a awesome tank. If you have ever attacked a Raven firing torps while flying a Brutix you'll understand. BC just don't have the hitpoints to deal with that kind of firepower. What i'd like to see is ships that compete on the market with HAC's. Cheaper, slower, less resists then a HAC, but something that can do that kind of damage. That is why people loved the Drake and Hurricane, but said that the Myrmidon and Harbringer needed a boost. We need options to allow pilots with lower skills, and bank accounts to fly a ship with good damage that is insurable. I can fly every tech 1 BC in the game. I love this class of ships. I actually hate flying Battleships, to big and slow. I want to see balance, that is where my suggestions come from. Not from the attitude of, "make my races ships the omgBBQpwn." I just don't like that the answer is always nerf it or "its pre-nerfed." Because CCP has a track record of taking 12-18 months to fix KNOWN problems with ships. So pre-nerfing a ship makes them unpopular and unusable. Good example is when the Drake was introduced on the test server. The Ferox is a railboat, did it get its addition +2 turrets and grid to fix the role it just lost as a missile boat? Have the drone bugs been fixed in the last year? To both of these, the answer is no. This is why nerfing things down and pre-nerfing is getting old. Problems put into the game take a backseat to content release. When they introduced the new BC it required them to evaluate the old ones and adjust them, or the old ones become obsolete. It didn't happen. I put together a bunch of suggestions that I have read here and thought about, and adjusted the WHOLE class. The damage coming from Battlecruisers should closely match that coming off of their respective HAC's, if not exceed it. I also added the suggestions to fix the problems laser users face. Lets face it if we are seriously testing KALI, lets get some actual improvements on alot of the issues facing this class as a whole.
Kashre Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:20:00 - [868] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Protunia I know for a fact I do not want to see a BC that can take on a BS period. ... tell me, how exactly is a ship with 1/2 the dps and half the tank going to solo a BS? because that's what the best of the BCs have. if you seriously believe even for a second that a realistic setup with speed mod, web & scram could have taken on a BS and gotten anything but a freshly-drawn pint of OMGWTFPWN, you're delusional. i'll draw you a graph of the harbinger (highest damage BC) vs your typical close-range bs so you can realize the exact extent of the stupidity of such a claim. Linkage Look at that and tell me exactly a ship with 65% the damage, half the tank, half the HP, half the cap, and 75% the signature radius is going to kill a BS, unless the BS pilot rides the short bus? The BC pilot with the best intel who brought the right EW? +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:25:00 - [869] Originally by: Kashre The BC pilot with the best intel who brought the right EW? What if the BS pilot has good EW too? Sensor strenght on BCs is much lower than on BS. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:31:00 - [870] I flew my drake around, JAVELIN HAMS were overpowered, thats why I said before that the DRAKE was only a tad overpowered or not overpowered at all. If you take out jav HAMS, the drake isn't all that. Try a drake(old drake) with 7 launcher T2s, not near as good.

Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:58:00 - [871] i hate nerfs...tho drake was a lille overpowered but -1 launcher was enough...maybe but i dont run the tests... well myrmidon is destined to use lights and meds i guess... ...i give up on these stuff, everything mixed up...
Aloysius Knight Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.17 08:59:00 - [872] Originally by: Tuxford Hurricane is a monster. It melts other battlecruisers before they can say "look at that cool ship". It also has no problems fitting autocannons and good defense or plates or whatever. sorry tux but you are a moron to think the Hurricane is over powered, what is overpowered is the abilaty to fit dual 180 with a duel rep tank + a plate how about fixing the abbily to fit that duel rep+ injector + plate before nerfing the damg output? how about droping the grid abit before just going out and nerfing the **** out of a perfect minmatar ship, it was fine ffs and nerfing the drake? pfffft i hate caldari more then most but that was over the top, the main problem was HAM's espesaly javlins, but nooooooo someone has to outshine tomb in the nerfing area how about instead of nerfing ships you shock boost the others to be inline with them? and what about fixing the balance with ***** cap ships? every time tux changes something everyone is in dread cos he nerfed every ***** thing (incase u may have noticed i don't like tux, not as a person but as how he runs the balance area of eve im sure hes a nice guy but as far as balancing things goes? bring back Tomb!!!!) http://www.stevie.prince.dsl.pipex.com/AloysiusKnight.jpg http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2107/nodecrashsiggb9.jpg Chose one, you must. Two is the way of pure ebilness, and pure ebilness is bad -ReverendM
Tylaris Solaris Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:34:00 - [873] While reading this thread I can't help but notice comments like: Originally by: Blind Man Edited by: Blind Man on 26/10/2006 10:28:23 I also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship. Originally by: keepiru the nighthawk needs a 7th launcher, that should have been painfully apparent right from the start though. The tier 2 BCs are meant to be heavy damage dealers, and everyone keeps saying don't make it do more damage than a command ship, or make a command ship do more damage. At least that seems to be the generality of the comments. I would like to point out that: A command ship was not designed to do damage. Command ships are meant to command fleets, and give gang bonuses through gang assist modules. Hence the name command ship. While a tier 1 BC has a tank that can be comparable to a BS, it traditionally has not much, if any more firepower than a T1 cruiser. For example: I use a ferox with a missile loadout because my rail skills are putrid. Therefore, I can get more range and DPS out of a Caracal. However, the caracal has a crap tank and we all know it Thus, there needs to be a 3rd kind of BC implemented into the game in the form of a tier 2 BC. One that has a heftier skill pre req than the tier 1, but will balance the gap in firepower. I gotta say the devs got this one right, so please stop complaining for them to change it. Also, if you can fly a command ship (I am training for one myself), you can probably manage a tier 2 BC just fine, so if you want firepower, stop using the command ships for something other than their designed purpose and get one of the new tier 2s k? thx. "Use Humilty to make them Haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division among them. WHen they are unprepared, attack and make your move when they do not expect it." Sun Tzu, "The Art of War
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:41:00 - [874] If the myrmidon needs more drone bay why can't you just give it a decent drone bay then state the bonuses are only for medium and light drones (or just restrict it from using heavies at all). That seems like the simplest solution.
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:55:00 - [875] YTMND about Tuxford's balancing of the teir 2 BC's. Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:59:00 - [876] Originally by: James Draekn Stuff Agreed except the drake part. Keep the resist bonus. But otherwise do what was suggested, especially HAM balances. Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Areiso	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:56:00 - [877] Originally by: Tylaris Solaris While reading this thread I can't help but notice comments like: Originally by: Blind Man Edited by: Blind Man on 26/10/2006 10:28:23 I also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship. Originally by: keepiru the nighthawk needs a 7th launcher, that should have been painfully apparent right from the start though. The tier 2 BCs are meant to be heavy damage dealers, and everyone keeps saying don't make it do more damage than a command ship, or make a command ship do more damage. At least that seems to be the generality of the comments. I would like to point out that: A command ship was not designed to do damage. Command ships are meant to command fleets, and give gang bonuses through gang assist modules. Hence the name command ship. While a tier 1 BC has a tank that can be comparable to a BS, it traditionally has not much, if any more firepower than a T1 cruiser. For example: I use a ferox with a missile loadout because my rail skills are putrid. Therefore, I can get more range and DPS out of a Caracal. However, the caracal has a crap tank and we all know it Thus, there needs to be a 3rd kind of BC implemented into the game in the form of a tier 2 BC. One that has a heftier skill pre req than the tier 1, but will balance the gap in firepower. I gotta say the devs got this one right, so please stop complaining for them to change it. Also, if you can fly a command ship (I am training for one myself), you can probably manage a tier 2 BC just fine, so if you want firepower, stop using the command ships for something other than their designed purpose and get one of the new tier 2s k? thx. Your do realise what you have typed right? command ships are suposed to be fleet command ships... and not have superior firepower... i can clearly notice you never flew a field command ship nor even took a look at any of them, what you describe are exactly as you said FLEET command ship's, but you forgot theres a second class, the FIELD command ship's, squad commanding ship's to be out on the field kicking ass, and yes, you've guessed they're suposed to outclass HAC's (wich on their own kicks any tier1 or tier2 BC) and so yeah... they're main focus? BIG dmg output... and when i say big... i mean... B I G, and when you say that a tier 2 bc should infact do more or same dmg than a TECH 2 BC you haven't taken a close look at what tech 2 equipment is suposed to be... it's suposed to be BETTER than it's own tech 1 class of equipment.... so... your arguments although eloquently spoken... are quite honestly ultimatly WRONG... sorry mate, not trying to flame you, but you kinda made me laugh :P P.S: tier 2 BC aren't suposed to be cheaper wtfpwnage mobiles as oposed to the expensive field command ship's that niche belongs to the second and guess what... it ain't cheap, and plus, i'll bet any good astarte/sleipnir fighter can kick almost any non-faction BS on a 1v1... but that's just me....
Dunpeal Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:59:00 - [878] areiso e my alt, i allways forget to change the character when posting lol Bow down, and i'll make your death even more painfull! At least die with some dignity Maximum dimensions for signature images are 400w x 120h and 24kb file size. --Jorauk
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:13:00 - [879] Bad move on the drake imho, 7 missile slots did it justice wheras now it's a bit crap. For some reason I was'nt getting the damage per missile as the caracal, actually the damage was quite pathetic. The huricane and amar BC now ** all over the caldari bc, as for the myrmidian....it's still useless . Anyhoo's, my main point is, why not BALLANCE ships instead of NERFiNG them?. /me curses the whinging **es who altered the funky drake If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt*
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:15:00 - [880] Edited by: Aki Yamato on 17/11/2006 11:21:10 I realy love argument like " This ship is cheaper so it cant beat more expansive one" Yea so I wont to my cerberus beat my cerberus 2,5 BS in one time BIG GUN BIG FUTURE

Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:26:00 - [881] Originally by: Aki Yamato I realy love argument like " This ship is cheaper so it cant beat more expansive one" Yea so I wont to my cerberus beat my cerberus 2,5 BS in one time I cant avoid thought that drake was strictly designed for HAMs and HAMs was designed for drake (and are broken). So what will we nerf next due HAMs ? Caracal Cerberus. Fix HAMs first becose after some nerfing of HAMs Drake will be total piece of junk. Uhm, what? If I'm understanding that post--and that's a stretch--then you're saying that a) the drake wasn't broke, HAMs were (more or less true; drake could have been toned down a bit after the HAMs were fixed). and b) Just because a ship is cheaper, doesn't mean it's less useful or less deadly. Very true, but considering that in this case the cheaper ship is in the same T1 class and does the same exact job just as well or slightly better--since it can mount a formidable tank at the expense of 1 launcher--then the more expensive ship becomes redundant and a poor investment. I've said it before, and I'll keep with the theme: Restore the RoF bonus at the very least. If possible, add 50 extra grid as well, please. ----------------------------------------------- Vice Adm Vladimir Tinakin Logistics CO Hadean Drive Yards
Dunpeal Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:29:00 - [882] Originally by: Aki Yamato Edited by: Aki Yamato on 17/11/2006 11:21:10 I realy love argument like " This ship is cheaper so it cant beat more expansive one" Yea so I wont to my cerberus beat my cerberus 2,5 BS in one time more expensive ships, means more skill intensive ships... so it's not cause they're expensive it's cause they're better, otherwise... nobody would pay top dollars for it... so... what's your point exactly? lol Bow down, and i'll make your death even more painfull! At least die with some dignity Maximum dimensions for signature images are 400w x 120h and 24kb file size. --Jorauk
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:03:00 - [883] Right fix hams, and return RoF to drake and this ship will be just fine. Siply i hate price comparation point of view.. more expensive = better. I alway thing how many manhours must be spend to build and put in duty battleship, and how it is unfait that this battleship can be sunked by single man in cheap dive bomber sorry for OT. I have just found out i have 135% capacitor recharge time "bonus" nad 25% speed reduction on my cerberus using 5 HAM chers witch T2 ammo. Is it a Bug or new/old plague hit ? BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Dadanen1	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:04:00 - [884] hmm, i wonder, if they overlooked the fact that with hams everyone on the test server already has the heavy assault and heavy assault spec to lvl 5, which if you include the bonus from those skills might cause someone to think the drake is overpowered...unless my mind is crapping out since im lacking sleep
Admiral Keyes Minmatar Ooops Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:38:00 - [885] I'm waiting for Tux to post in this thread as to why he's changed the drake and hurricane. I thought these tier 2 BC's were supposed to be gank machines while tier 1's were tank machines. I say boost the other BC's to bring them in line, not castrate the better ones. ----------------------------------- HaHaHa! This sig is edit proof! Sadly, it appears so. -Capsicum \o/ I Am Invincible \o/
Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:47:00 - [886] Edited by: Flabida jaba on 17/11/2006 12:52:59 Drake nerf it is now a ferox with an extra launcher and an extra mid slot..... and less grid to fit it... the only time a kinectic dmg bonus is applicable is for ratting guristas. Fine 6 launchers is an acceptable nerf but leave the Rof bonus at least and considering the dps flush its getting at least leave it the grid to fit a freaking awesome tank! still it'll be a fine lvl 3 mission ship... oh wait we already have one of those!
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:53:00 - [887] The issue with the Drake is HAM's are broken. Broken HAM's also effect Caracels and Cerebus's. And Shield Tanked Launcher Curse's The Shield Tanked Launcher Curse + drones + HAMS is going to be way way overpowered. Should the Curse be nerfed because of HAM's? Heck no, just nerf the HAM's and balance out the Drake. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:34:00 - [888] Was it proved in this thread that unnerfed Drake with HAM had 3-rd DPS among all BC tier-3? --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Gats Amarr Black-Sun The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:23:00 - [889] Comment on latest BC changes : Drake , the remove of the 7th launcher whas to much imo . Hurricane , Dindt need any changes whas fine when introduced ... after this nerfs it seems allot less attractive .some ppl might even start to wonder if its of any use .
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:39:00 - [890] Edited by: keepiru on 17/11/2006 14:40:42 Yup. The only problem HAMs have is the incredible brokenness of Javelin unguided ammo. Apart from that, they're balanced to the point of being nearly useless to caldari, they're basically secondary weapons for gunships on every ship but the cerberus - which will run into grid problems if it wants to get into range and have any sort of tank at the same time. Even if they balanced it to have the same range boost as jav torps, it would still be incredibly broken, just like jav torps are, even post kali nerf. (37501.51.5)(121.5*1.5)= 227km electron blasters for the cerberus. well, not quite, the damage is a fair way off in reality (~25% less), but the range is so incredibly ludicrous that it might as well be. While they're useless at max range for a number of reasons, since they move @ 8.4375km/s from a max-skilled cerb doing more damage than heavy missiles at greater range and faster is plenty possible. I don't think anything more needs to be said, Javelin HAMs are broken beyond belief. The rest of HAM ammo though, is perfectly fine. You don't nerf a ship or a whole weapon class because of a retarded T2 ammo type, you nerf the ammo type, just like you don't remove a turret from the thron just because null/void are overpowered. Obviously however this simple concept escapes CCP. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!

Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.17 15:44:00 - [891] WHo cares about missile range? 30 sec before hit means possibility to warp out even for Raven. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:04:00 - [892] Originally by: Zixxa WHo cares about missile range? 30 sec before hit means possibility to warp out even for Raven. Ok, so you'd have no problem with the Myrmidon getting a, say +50% per level drone damage bonus? Because those heavy drones will take ages to travel to you, much longer than any missile, always leaving you ample time to warp out (even in a Raven). Right?
Ariel Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:34:00 - [893] My 2c. Hurricane was perfectly fine. Drake should have lost the 5% shield for another missile-oriented bonus. Harbringer +1 turret. Myrmidon +50m3 dronebay to be able to carry a full set of heavies and lights. As it stands now, only the Harbringer is a good addition to Tier 2 BCs, while the other 3 aren't anything to get excited about.
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:35:00 - [894] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Zixxa WHo cares about missile range? 30 sec before hit means possibility to warp out even for Raven. Ok, so you'd have no problem with the Myrmidon getting a, say +50% per level drone damage bonus? Because those heavy drones will take ages to travel to you, much longer than any missile, always leaving you ample time to warp out (even in a Raven). Right? Right. Drone is situational weapon. But compare drone flight time with high damage missile(whih is usually shown on all graphs, to prove that Drake is only 30% worse than Harbinger/Hurricane and only 10% worse than Myrm) flight time. But you always could get Brutix and give me in Drake few lessons of PvP. I can get Ferox and ... get from you few lessons of PvP. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:42:00 - [895] This may sound off the wall as I am not great with graphs and math, etc, but since only half the BCs seemed designed with firepower in mind and the other half had tanking ability, why not make them both with bonuses that affect their damage ability since there were supposed to be originally all about damage from what Tux originally said about them. Drake: 5% RoF bonus per level, 10% Kinetic Missile Damage per level Hurricane: 5% RoF bonus per level, 5% projectile turret damage per level (original bonus) Harbinger: 10% Laser turret damage per level, 10% Laser cap bonus per level (to please you amarrian sobs) Myrmidon: 15% drone damage and HP per level, 10% drone MWD speed per level? (shooting in the dark there)
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:55:00 - [896] Originally by: Derran Drake: 5% RoF bonus per level, 10% Kinetic Missile Damage per level Harbinger: 10% Laser turret damage per level, 10% Laser cap bonus per level (to please you amarrian sobs) Myrmidon: 15% drone damage and HP per level, 10% drone MWD speed per level? (shooting in the dark there) ehhhhhhhh 10% turret damage? 15% drone damage? rof +10% kin damage? seem a bit out of place to me... what i liked to see hurricane: as it was prenerf harbringer: with rof bonus (but dmg is good too) myrmidon: as it is now but with 150-200 dronebay and drone bonus applied only to light and mid drones drake... for drake something a bit crazy... 8 turrets +rof +another missile bonus (speed or radius), tank bonus removed, jav ham range nerfed a bit and 5 mid and 4 lows (have not looked at number... was just an idea)... basically a lot of missiledamage but way weaker tank... as it was nerfed it became a sort of ferox big tank poor damage
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:03:00 - [897] I have not looked at others but that latest balancing hurt Drake quite bad. I mean ok it was too good to be true, but removing missile slot AND RoF bonus seems a bit harsh. And even more so if you replace it with rather useless kinetic damage bonus. Well ok it has some uses - like shooting gurista NPC's but thats about it.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:15:00 - [898] Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: Derran Drake: 5% RoF bonus per level, 10% Kinetic Missile Damage per level Harbinger: 10% Laser turret damage per level, 10% Laser cap bonus per level (to please you amarrian sobs) Myrmidon: 15% drone damage and HP per level, 10% drone MWD speed per level? (shooting in the dark there) ehhhhhhhh 10% turret damage? 15% drone damage? rof +10% kin damage? seem a bit out of place to me... what i liked to see hurricane: as it was prenerf harbringer: with rof bonus (but dmg is good too) myrmidon: as it is now but with 150-200 dronebay and drone bonus applied only to light and mid drones drake... for drake something a bit crazy... 8 turrets +rof +another missile bonus (speed or radius), tank bonus removed, jav ham range nerfed a bit and 5 mid and 4 lows (have not looked at number... was just an idea)... basically a lot of missiledamage but way weaker tank... as it was nerfed it became a sort of ferox big tank poor damage Sure, why not? It increases the drone damage since they seem so reluctant to increase the drone bay. The tanking ability might as well be removed. They are supposed to be DPS machines after all according to Tux, right? Give it a drone speed bonus as something new and fresh and to solve that drone travel time problem people get all uppity about. Give the lasers a damage bonus instead of RoF as RoF just makes laser suck cap faster. I would think 5% but they already ***** about Amarrians being nerfed all to hell so that could shut them up. Maybe take away one turret if it is too much damage but leave high slot amount the same. Harbinger needs the cap bonus as it is and since every other DPS machine has two bonuses, 10% helps damage capability along. The problem with the drake being considered overpowered is because it had the awesome shield resist which only fueled the 'Drake is better/similiar to Ferox' thing. Take it away, give something to help its damage (maybe leave it with 6 missile slots too) and it is no longer the Ferox bigger brother. It would actually be different. I suppose it could be a 5% kinetic missile damage bonus instead because of a RoF bonus.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:30:00 - [899] Edited by: Ath Amon on 17/11/2006 17:32:15 ewww.... removed... wrong topic
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:32:00 - [900] They took the padding of the bat for the Drake, Ouch! ------------------ CEO of TKI

Dano Sarum Giants in the Playground Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:47:00 - [901] I gotta be honest here, the 4 mids on the harbinger are pretty amazing, the only problem is they totally go against what every other Amarr ship has. I can only think of a small handfull of amarr ships that have 4+ meds. As much as I think "wow, now I can actually have a versatile ship for pvp!" I also think hey... this ain't Amarr. I would remove that extra mid and add in the top turret, Gallente got their ship model ungimped why the hell do Amarr have to have a turret slot on a model they can NEVER use? Oh and if you have to add another slot I'd make it a low, it'd need to be used as a fitting mod anyway for a full rack of T2 beams / pulses. The ship bonuses are fine, the drone bay is fine. All the other ships seem pretty nice too now, I love how the Myr was changed now, for the love of god don't give people the 125-150+ dronebay they want. BC's with the same offensive capabilities as the dominix FTL. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:04:00 - [902] Original stats Hurricane problem: It could fit a full rack of 220 IIs, mwd, 2xMed Rep IIs and a 1600mm plate. The overall damage wasn't the issue imho. It was the damage combined with the SUPERB tank at the same time. Dual reps isn't really a problem, but when combined with the oversize plate it was a real issue. Suggested Solution: The AC/Artie grid discrepency may eventually need to be addressed. In the meantime, oversized plates need a nerf. Fitting multiple smaller plates is not a problem, as the penalties they confer are multiplicative and take up multiple slots. Oversizing gets you all the bonuses of multple smaller plates without the penalty or the slot use. Some ships (like ac boats) generally have a lot of grid left over after fitting weapons to be able to mount oversized plates. Nerf oversized plate fitting, or better yet make them give a % increase to armor amount. Possibly a modest set amount of armor (size appropriate) and a % as well. This lets appropriate sized ships fit them, and oversizing won't gain such an overwhelming advantage. Results of Current Hurricane Implementation: The Hurricane will simply mount 2 assault launchers, have the same DPS as before with fewer tracking problems, and still have the same insane 2 med rep II, MWD, +1600mm plate tank. It only effectively nerfed the 720mm howie setups, which were balanced. The change does not address the core issue of the Hurricane. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:06:00 - [903] Edited by: keepiru on 17/11/2006 18:06:37 Yes, lets make it useless in pvp just like every other amarr sub-battleship with 3 mids. You really are a genius, since when does "gimped for pvp" = "amarr"? You can give it 8 guns, 100m3 drone bay and a 50% damage bonus and it will STILL SUCK if it has 3 mids. Oh it will be a good NPC ship no doubt, but the game is full of ships which are only good at NPCing, can we have some PVP ships pls? This applies to all races looks at the now pve-only drake ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
haq aan	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:07:00 - [904] Any comparison or test results from the test server after the last changes ? haq aan - Alektorophobia
Nonoffensive Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:29:00 - [905] How many times do people have to say it before it sinks in? The Dominix has MORE than 5 heavies as offense. If the Myrmidon could use Heavy NOS I might be able to see the argument, but it CAN'T. If the Myrmidon could fit Large Hybrids I might be able to see the argument but it CAN'T. So what exactly about 5 Heavies is a crime? The Ishtar can use heavies, the Eos can use Heavies. Reducing the bonus to light and medium drones would be another NERF on top of the already reduced 17 fitting slots. And may I remind everyone, yes the drone bonus gives 50% hitpoints, but every ship in the game now has a FREE 50% - 100% HP bonus. I do not agree with the latest changes to the BCs, roll them back and see what happens.
Orion Shurtak Amarr Free Player Corp	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:51:00 - [906] I knew it as too good to be true. Heaven forbid we let the caldari get through a major patch (or any content patch for that matter) that doesn't involve a nerf on them. WTG CCP -------------------------------------------------- Free Player Corporation
Jaxtet Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:55:00 - [907] Originally by: Orion Shurtak I knew it as too good to be true. Heaven forbid we let the caldari get through a major patch (or any content patch for that matter) that doesn't involve a nerf on them. WTG CCP Technically nothing was ever nerfed. If the Drake had gone live AND then been readjusted to where it is now - that would be a nerf. What has happened is testing and balancing on a TEST server. It's part of a QA process. - It's great to have a life outside of a video game, ain't it?«
Cyberus	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:16:00 - [908] Like some guy said: DRAKE was castrate before it even born. 6 Lhp is sound fair on this ship in place of 7, but sorry change Rof bonus to kenetic ???? Do you actualy want us figth in PvP with this ship or just kill Guristas?
Tylaris Solaris Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:43:00 - [909] Originally by: Areiso Your do realise what you have typed right? command ships are suposed to be fleet command ships... and not have superior firepower... i can clearly notice you never flew a field command ship nor even took a look at any of them, what you describe are exactly as you said FLEET command ship's, but you forgot theres a second class, the FIELD command ship's, squad commanding ship's to be out on the field kicking ass, and yes, you've guessed they're suposed to outclass HAC's (wich on their own kicks any tier1 or tier2 BC) and so yeah... they're main focus? BIG dmg output... and when i say big... i mean... B I G, and when you say that a tier 2 bc should infact do more or same dmg than a TECH 2 BC you haven't taken a close look at what tech 2 equipment is suposed to be... it's suposed to be BETTER than it's own tech 1 class of equipment.... so... your arguments although eloquently spoken... are quite honestly ultimatly WRONG... sorry mate, not trying to flame you, but you kinda made me laugh :P P.S: tier 2 BC aren't suposed to be cheaper wtfpwnage mobiles as oposed to the expensive field command ship's that niche belongs to the second and guess what... it ain't cheap, and plus, i'll bet any good astarte/sleipnir fighter can kick almost any non-faction BS on a 1v1... but that's just me.... You do raise a good point, and I didnt mention the distinction between a fleet command or a field command. However, now that you bring it up, I dont think the new BCs can out DPS the field command ships. Maybe I used a bad example with the Nighthawk quote, but I have seen the same made about the Vulture. All I was trying to point out is that the command ships dont need to be buffed, and the new BCs dont need to be nerfed either. "Use Humilty to make them Haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division among them. WHen they are unprepared, attack and make your move when they do not expect it." Sun Tzu, "The Art of War
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:58:00 - [910] Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 17/11/2006 20:00:49 Originally by: Nonoffensive How many times do people have to say it before it sinks in? The Dominix has MORE than 5 heavies as offense. If the Myrmidon could use Heavy NOS I might be able to see the argument, but it CAN'T. If the Myrmidon could fit Large Hybrids I might be able to see the argument but it CAN'T. So what exactly about 5 Heavies is a crime? The Ishtar can use heavies, the Eos can use Heavies. Reducing the bonus to light and medium drones would be another NERF on top of the already reduced 17 fitting slots. And may I remind everyone, yes the drone bonus gives 50% hitpoints, but every ship in the game now has a FREE 50% - 100% HP bonus. I do not agree with the latest changes to the BCs, roll them back and see what happens. Totally QFT. There is nothing, and I mean, absolutely nothing that makes 5 heavies overpowered on the Myrmidon. I've already given the math on how this is true. I've also already showed that limiting the drone bonus to lights and mediums is a nerf. A nerf on an already underpowered ship. Common, give the Myrmidon its 100m3 to 150m3 drone bay increase. -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage

Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:15:00 - [911] Yup the myr could use more drone bay, insted of always taking the nice ships and nefring them to mach the not so nice, do the opposite for once. Try it you might like it, I know we sure would.
Orrin Danestarr	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:41:00 - [912] Edited by: Orrin Danestarr on 17/11/2006 20:42:52 Originally by: Derran This may sound off the wall as I am not great with graphs and math, etc, but since only half the BCs seemed designed with firepower in mind and the other half had tanking ability, why not make them both with bonuses that affect their damage ability since there were supposed to be originally all about damage from what Tux originally said about them. Drake: 5% RoF bonus per level, 10% Kinetic Missile Damage per level Hurricane: 5% RoF bonus per level, 5% projectile turret damage per level (original bonus) Harbinger: 10% Laser turret damage per level, 10% Laser cap bonus per level (to please you amarrian sobs) Myrmidon: 15% drone damage and HP per level, 10% drone MWD speed per level? (shooting in the dark there) Harbringer: 20% bonus to thermal damage per lvl, 10% reduction in laser cap usage. Hurricane: as it was before Myridon: 10% Drone hp and damage per level, 15% increase in drone bay size per level Drake: 5% ROF for Missile launchers, 5% damage increase for Missile Launchers per level Hows that? "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.17 21:12:00 - [913] I propose replace Night Hawk hull with drakes hull, it would be pitty to not use such nice graphic ship design. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Cyberus	Posted - 2006.11.17 21:38:00 - [914] Originally by: Aki Yamato I propose replace Night Hawk hull with drakes hull, it would be pitty to not use such nice graphic ship design. No worrys m8 there will be own drake hull t2 ships. But if it will be command ship??/ dont know.
Protunia Gallente Horadrim	Posted - 2006.11.17 22:05:00 - [915] Edited by: Protunia on 17/11/2006 22:05:50 Originally by: Derran This may sound off the wall as I am not great with graphs and math, etc, but since only half the BCs seemed designed with firepower in mind and the other half had tanking ability, why not make them both with bonuses that affect their damage ability since there were supposed to be originally all about damage from what Tux originally said about them. Drake: 5% RoF bonus per level, 10% Kinetic Missile Damage per level Hurricane: 5% RoF bonus per level, 5% projectile turret damage per level (original bonus) Harbinger: 10% Laser turret damage per level, 10% Laser cap bonus per level (to please you amarrian sobs) Myrmidon: 15% drone damage and HP per level, 10% drone MWD speed per level? (shooting in the dark there) Harbringer: 15% bonus to thermal damage per lvl, 10% reduction in laser cap usage. Hurricane: as it was before Myridon: 10% Drone hp and damage per level, 15% increase in drone bay size per level Drake: 5% ROF for Missile launchers, 5% damage increase for Missile Launchers per level Hows that? um 25 m3 drone bay per level then maybe. the rest can sink far as im concerned. My Character Stats
Braise Erighani	Posted - 2006.11.17 22:53:00 - [916] Well, if you are definitely not wanting to give the myrmidon the ability to field 5 heavies, why not giving it back the turret damage bonus all other gallente drone carriers have? Sure, it would make it something of a super vexor, but at least it would make it a good value for money compared to vexor, while staying well under dominix fighting capacity. It was a good idea to try to create a new class of ship, dedicated drone carrier, but it doesn't fit in the battlecruisers weight class.
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.17 23:45:00 - [917] Originally by: Protunia Edited by: Protunia on 17/11/2006 22:05:50 Originally by: Derran This may sound off the wall as I am not great with graphs and math, etc, but since only half the BCs seemed designed with firepower in mind and the other half had tanking ability, why not make them both with bonuses that affect their damage ability since there were supposed to be originally all about damage from what Tux originally said about them. Drake: 5% RoF bonus per level, 10% Kinetic Missile Damage per level Hurricane: 5% RoF bonus per level, 5% projectile turret damage per level (original bonus) Harbinger: 10% Laser turret damage per level, 10% Laser cap bonus per level (to please you amarrian sobs) Myrmidon: 15% drone damage and HP per level, 10% drone MWD speed per level? (shooting in the dark there) Harbringer: 15% bonus to thermal damage per lvl, 10% reduction in laser cap usage. Hurricane: as it was before Myridon: 10% Drone hp and damage per level, 15% increase in drone bay size per level Drake: 5% ROF for Missile launchers, 5% damage increase for Missile Launchers per level Hows that? um 25 m3 drone bay per level then maybe. the rest can sink far as im concerned. Sounds good to me, I'd like to see an amarr ship with a thermal bonus, my alt is amarr it would be fun!
Dekein No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.18 00:21:00 - [918] Some people have already stated it, but I'll repost what I said in another thread. The real problem, which the HP buff is magnifying, is how easy it is to fit oversized plate and extenders. There needs to be some sanity injected into both modules so that the realistic sized ones are being mounted on the ships they are designed for. Frigates/destroyers should not be mounting medium extenders or 400mm plates. Cruisers/BCs should not be mounting large extenders or 1600mm plates. If some adjustments to the Hp values of the modules need to be done along with adding the restrictions for size, so be it. Until then, balance will be very hard to achieve as some setups/ships will allow tanks with 3-4 times the hitpoints of other ships, while not sacrificing 3-4 times the damage output. They could look at the relative fitting costs of close and long range weapons too, but as long as the HP boosting modules were restricted, it wouldn't do you a whole ton of good to fit low grid weapons to try to overtank the ship. I know someone will cry about versatility. But really, why on earth would you not sacrifice 20% DPS for 300% more tank? Outside of a fleet or pure gank squad, it would be so stupid not to that everyone with a clue would be doing it(lots alrady are on TQ). _____________________
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.18 00:37:00 - [919] Edited by: Derran on 18/11/2006 00:38:18 Originally by: Protunia Edited by: Protunia on 17/11/2006 22:05:50 Originally by: Derran This may sound off the wall as I am not great with graphs and math, etc, but since only half the BCs seemed designed with firepower in mind and the other half had tanking ability, why not make them both with bonuses that affect their damage ability since there were supposed to be originally all about damage from what Tux originally said about them. Drake: 5% RoF bonus per level, 10% Kinetic Missile Damage per level Hurricane: 5% RoF bonus per level, 5% projectile turret damage per level (original bonus) Harbinger: 10% Laser turret damage per level, 10% Laser cap bonus per level (to please you amarrian sobs) Myrmidon: 15% drone damage and HP per level, 10% drone MWD speed per level? (shooting in the dark there) Harbringer: 15% bonus to thermal damage per lvl, 10% reduction in laser cap usage. Hurricane: as it was before Myridon: 10% Drone hp and damage per level, 15% increase in drone bay size per level Drake: 5% ROF for Missile launchers, 5% damage increase for Missile Launchers per level Hows that? um 25 m3 drone bay per level then maybe. the rest can sink far as im concerned. You'll never see thermal damage increase for Amarr ships or a blanket damage bonus for missiles. I don't think an increase in drone bay on the Myrmidon is going to happen either. However, I did see a thread in ships and modules with an idea for drone control that could make it work properly. It definitely has alot of potential. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=channel&channelID=3517
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.18 00:52:00 - [920] People have been complaining on this thread, and countless threads out there. CCP just doesn't seem to get it! How many people have to complain before they dam understand give the **in myr a bigger drone bay! How many times do we have to complain to get CCP to stop nerfing ships that dont need them! The hurricane is supposed to be a gank ship over tank, so why in ***** hell is CCP nerfing its gank rather than tank! Thanks CCP! I'm going to tear my hair out! Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"

cy4n1d3	Posted - 2006.11.18 02:00:00 - [921] Edited by: cy4n1d3 on 18/11/2006 02:04:23 The Hurricane already has a crap tank and only 4 mids. 4 Mids is crap. You can't PVP with 4 mids. Leave the powergrid nerf if you want, just put back the 7th turret. Do the same to the Drake, put back its 7 launchers and put back the ROF bonus, get rid of a couple meds on it if you want. Boost the other faction's BC's too. Give them more DPS, less tank, and another one with less DPS, more tank. That's the whole concept of BC's, if you're British anyway, they like big guns with no armor. If you're German, then you like small guns with big armor. I like the British BC's more, even though the German ones were more effective in Jutland. Gal already has a high DPS BC, make their new one a huge droneboat with a great tank. Amarr needs a high DPS one too. Make their new one high DPS, and boost the proph's tank some more, then everyone's happy. The Cyclone is crap though. Give it another med and 10m3 more drone space.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.18 02:16:00 - [922] Edited by: Goumindong on 18/11/2006 02:18:07 Originally by: Derran Edited by: Derran on 18/11/2006 00:38:18 Originally by: someone Originally by: someone Originally by: Derran This may sound off the wall as I am not great with graphs and math, etc, but since only half the BCs seemed designed with firepower in mind and the other half had tanking ability, why not make them both with bonuses that affect their damage ability since there were supposed to be originally all about damage from what Tux originally said about them. Drake: 5% RoF bonus per level, 10% Kinetic Missile Damage per level Hurricane: 5% RoF bonus per level, 5% projectile turret damage per level (original bonus) Harbinger: 10% Laser turret damage per level, 10% Laser cap bonus per level (to please you amarrian sobs) Myrmidon: 15% drone damage and HP per level, 10% drone MWD speed per level? (shooting in the dark there) Harbringer: 15% bonus to thermal damage per lvl, 10% reduction in laser cap usage. Hurricane: as it was before Myridon: 10% Drone hp and damage per level, 15% increase in drone bay size per level Drake: 5% ROF for Missile launchers, 5% damage increase for Missile Launchers per level Hows that? um 25 m3 drone bay per level then maybe. the rest can sink far as im concerned. You'll never see thermal damage increase for Amarr ships or a blanket damage bonus for missiles. I don't think an increase in drone bay on the Myrmidon is going to happen either. However, I did see a thread in ships and modules with an idea for drone control that could make it work properly. It definitely has alot of potential. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=channel&channelID=3517 And to be honest, that is a really iffy bonus. When shooting some t2 ammo you get a 7.5% dps boost/lvl. When shooting t1 ammo its less, when shooting long range t1 ammo its basically nothing[if you shoot radio it is nothing], and its almost nothing for long range t2 ammo. Also 10%/level is too much
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.18 02:31:00 - [923] Originally by: cy4n1d3 Edited by: cy4n1d3 on 18/11/2006 02:04:23 The Hurricane already has a crap tank and only 4 mids. 4 Mids is crap. You can't PVP with 4 mids. Leave the powergrid nerf if you want, just put back the 7th turret. Do the same to the Drake, put back its 7 launchers and put back the ROF bonus, get rid of a couple meds on it if you want. Boost the other faction's BC's too. Give them more DPS, less tank, and another one with less DPS, more tank. That's the whole concept of BC's, if you're British anyway, they like big guns with no armor. If you're German, then you like small guns with big armor. I like the British BC's more, even though the German ones were more effective in Jutland. Gal already has a high DPS BC, make their new one a huge droneboat with a great tank. Amarr needs a high DPS one too. Make their new one high DPS, and boost the proph's tank some more, then everyone's happy. The Cyclone is crap though. Give it another med and 10m3 more drone space. Actualy, it was the german guns that were larger for the most part. They had a thing for really really really big guns. The Brittish beat them with airforces not guns. At jutland, the guns on the battlecruisers were relativly similar [12 in on most, 13.5's on(at least) one of the Brittish] Anyway. 1. 4 mids and 6 lows is plenty for PvPing. MWD/Scram/Web/injector. Look at that, all the "essentials" if you dont fit an injector you can fit some form of EW 2. The Hurricane had and has a freaking fantastic tank, a capacitor injected, dual medium repper II, 1600mm plate tank is really really really good. Depending on how long it runs, its nearly a battleship quality tank [2 mar=1 lar, BC+1600=about BS base, uses more slots, so few slots for dmg mods[not a huge deal, its a freaking tank with a full compliment of medium guns+rigs], or less resistances, but still superduper fantastic]. The Hurricane also has the same capacitor size and strength of a Prophesy, which has the best capacitor of any teir 1 BC.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.18 03:08:00 - [924] Originally by: Goumindong And to be honest, that is a really iffy bonus. When shooting some t2 ammo you get a 7.5% dps boost/lvl. When shooting t1 ammo its less, when shooting long range t1 ammo its basically nothing[if you shoot radio it is nothing], and its almost nothing for long range t2 ammo. Also 10%/level is too much I only thought of it because the 10% cap reduction per level doesn't really contribute to the whole DPS theme the Tier 2 BCs are supposed to be. Although as it stands right now as I look at SISI, the harbinger has: Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in laser capacitor need and 5% bonus to laser damage And what did they change on the Hurricane again? Was it a reduction to 6 turret slots? Because the bonus on it is Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% increase in projectile weapons damage and Rate of Fire
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.18 03:13:00 - [925] I am sorry TUX but to be quite frank the changes to the hurricane and drake are very rubbish. The biggest problem to cruisers and battlecruisers would be the ability to fit oversized plates. The resistance bonus on the drake is obscene but not more obscene than clipping a launcher and adding a kinetic bonus to missiles. A kinetic bonus AND rate of fire on 7 launchers would have been better. The hurricane should have staid the same and you should do something about oversized armor plates as well as adding more sig radius to shield extenders. Fix it please. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.18 03:41:00 - [926] Originally by: Derran Originally by: Goumindong And to be honest, that is a really iffy bonus. When shooting some t2 ammo you get a 7.5% dps boost/lvl. When shooting t1 ammo its less, when shooting long range t1 ammo its basically nothing[if you shoot radio it is nothing], and its almost nothing for long range t2 ammo. Also 10%/level is too much I only thought of it because the 10% cap reduction per level doesn't really contribute to the whole DPS theme the Tier 2 BCs are supposed to be. Although as it stands right now as I look at SISI, the harbinger has: Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in laser capacitor need and 5% bonus to laser damage And what did they change on the Hurricane again? Was it a reduction to 6 turret slots? Because the bonus on it is Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% increase in projectile weapons damage and Rate of Fire Yea, but lasers do more damage than AC's at base. The dmg bonus brings them in line, which is why the Harbinger and Hurricane did similar damage [220's compared to HP's] when they both had 7 turrets[before rigs, which the Hurricane could fit easily] The single bonus laser ship is supposedly equivelent to the double bonus AC ship. It is also why you dont see double damage bonuses on blasters[at least, i dont think you do]
Statics A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.11.18 04:23:00 - [927] Thank you CCP! Thank you for continuing to cater to the T2 BPO owners in this game. How about you stop designing around 2% of the population and give the other 98% a friggin' break. God forbid some ships come along that would cut into the profits of all your little teet-sucking babies. NEAT.
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.18 04:39:00 - [928] Originally by: Kaylana Syi I am sorry TUX but to be quite frank the changes to the hurricane and drake are very rubbish. The biggest problem to cruisers and battlecruisers would be the ability to fit oversized plates. The resistance bonus on the drake is obscene but not more obscene than clipping a launcher and adding a kinetic bonus to missiles. A kinetic bonus AND rate of fire on 7 launchers would have been better. The hurricane should have staid the same and you should do something about oversized armor plates as well as adding more sig radius to shield extenders. Fix it please. /QFT
cy4n1d3	Posted - 2006.11.18 07:15:00 - [929] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: cy4n1d3 Edited by: cy4n1d3 on 18/11/2006 02:04:23 The Hurricane already has a crap tank and only 4 mids. 4 Mids is crap. You can't PVP with 4 mids. Leave the powergrid nerf if you want, just put back the 7th turret. Do the same to the Drake, put back its 7 launchers and put back the ROF bonus, get rid of a couple meds on it if you want. Boost the other faction's BC's too. Give them more DPS, less tank, and another one with less DPS, more tank. That's the whole concept of BC's, if you're British anyway, they like big guns with no armor. If you're German, then you like small guns with big armor. I like the British BC's more, even though the German ones were more effective in Jutland. Gal already has a high DPS BC, make their new one a huge droneboat with a great tank. Amarr needs a high DPS one too. Make their new one high DPS, and boost the proph's tank some more, then everyone's happy. The Cyclone is crap though. Give it another med and 10m3 more drone space. Actualy, it was the german guns that were larger for the most part. They had a thing for really really really big guns. The Brittish beat them with airforces not guns. At jutland, the guns on the battlecruisers were relativly similar [12 in on most, 13.5's on(at least) one of the Brittish] Anyway. 1. 4 mids and 6 lows is plenty for PvPing. MWD/Scram/Web/injector. Look at that, all the "essentials" if you dont fit an injector you can fit some form of EW 2. The Hurricane had and has a freaking fantastic tank, a capacitor injected, dual medium repper II, 1600mm plate tank is really really really good. Depending on how long it runs, its nearly a battleship quality tank [2 mar=1 lar, BC+1600=about BS base, uses more slots, so few slots for dmg mods[not a huge deal, its a freaking tank with a full compliment of medium guns+rigs], or less resistances, but still superduper fantastic]. The Hurricane also has the same capacitor size and strength of a Prophesy, which has the best capacitor of any teir 1 BC. Uh, actually when it came to BattleCruisers, which is what we're talking about, the British favored bigger guns (and guns that fired twice as fast due to their unstable propellant) and speed with no armor, while the Germans favored smaller guns (and safer slow firing propellant) and speed with heavy armor. Go do some research or something. 1. 4 Mids isn't that great. It's the bare minimum for an AC ship because you have to get in really close. You always need a mwd/web/scram so that's always 3 taken automatically. 2. I don't know about this "freaking fantastic" tank crap. You might be able to fit all that, but you're going to be doing crap damage because you have to fit 180 2's and no gyro's, good luck killing anything larger than a frigate. Do you know how fast 7 180 2's fire with a 25% rof bonus + skills + gyros (if you have room for them)? So you know how much ammo of each type you need to have in your bay for a single fight? A lot. Barrage, Hail, EMP at the least. So how much room does that leave for cap injector charges? Like 1 or 2 800's, if you want to have enough ammo to last in a fight for more than a minute, and it will last a long time with your crap damage. Plus, with your "freaking fantastic" config, since you have a MWD mounted, most of your cap will be gone by the time you actually get to your target, and that wastes your first couple charges. Have you ever actually flown Minmitar ships? I have for 3 years, maybe you should try it, before making posts in which you pretend to be an expert on them. You're wrong on all 3 of your points. This is why I don't post on the forums, because of idiots like you that clog it up with your bull****. I thought the Devs were smart enough not to listen to noobs like you, but apparently they are, and they nerfed 2 perfectly good ships because of it.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.18 08:12:00 - [930] OT: I thind the most famous British BC HMS Hood have 15" guns same as all other BS until HMS Vanguard. BTW it wont be worthless reclassificate presen BC to Heavy cruisers and add new BC class line with BS weponary :) BIG GUN BIG FUTURE

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.18 09:20:00 - [931] Originally by: cy4n1d3 Uh, actually when it came to BattleCruisers, which is what we're talking about, the British favored bigger guns (and guns that fired twice as fast due to their unstable propellant) and speed with no armor, while the Germans favored smaller guns (and safer slow firing propellant) and speed with heavy armor. Go do some research or something. 1. 4 Mids isn't that great. It's the bare minimum for an AC ship because you have to get in really close. You always need a mwd/web/scram so that's always 3 taken automatically. 2. I don't know about this "freaking fantastic" tank crap. You might be able to fit all that, but you're going to be doing crap damage because you have to fit 180 2's and no gyro's, good luck killing anything larger than a frigate. Do you know how fast 7 180 2's fire with a 25% rof bonus + skills + gyros (if you have room for them)? So you know how much ammo of each type you need to have in your bay for a single fight? A lot. Barrage, Hail, EMP at the least. So how much room does that leave for cap injector charges? Like 1 or 2 800's, if you want to have enough ammo to last in a fight for more than a minute, and it will last a long time with your crap damage. Plus, with your "freaking fantastic" config, since you have a MWD mounted, most of your cap will be gone by the time you actually get to your target, and that wastes your first couple charges. Have you ever actually flown Minmitar ships? I have for 3 years, maybe you should try it, before making posts in which you pretend to be an expert on them. You're wrong on all 3 of your points. This is why I don't post on the forums, because of idiots like you that clog it up with your bull**. I thought the Devs were smart enough not to listen to noobs like you, but apparently they are, and they nerfed 2 perfectly good ships because of it. I did do research, for instance at the battle of the jutlands, there was one brittish boat with 13.5" guns, the rest were 12", the same size as the German BC's. 1. 4 Mids isnt superfantastic aweseomsauce yes, but it is still good, and good enough for PvP. 2. It doesnt really matter whether or not you know about the frigging fantastic tank or not, because its there. Its guns use no cap and it can fit an injected dual MAR II tank with a 1600 plate. With 2 EAN's/2MAR/1600mm/Gyro you will do plenty of damage. As well, you do not have to drop down to 180's As well, ammo was cut in size in kali by about a half As well, all auto cannons were given lower RoF and a Higher damage to compensate And this doesnt include rigs, which are easy to fit due to the low PG of AC's. It has a better tank than a prophesy**, the prophesy has better resists yes, but a prophesy has to fit small guns before it can fit an injected dual MARII setup with a 1600 plate. You can do very very good damage on the thing and still have a ridiculous tank, that is the problem. The fact that you cannot see that doesnt matter. This is why the problem with the thing was never the guns or the damage, but it was the tank you could fit with those guns and that damage.
Wolfgang Jager Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:31:00 - [932] It is time to make a stand, the absolutely idiotic Kinetic damage bonus has to be removed. Across the board, from ALL Caldari missile ships and replaced with something more appropriate. The kinetic bonus is lame, pointless and unjustified in EVERY case. There is not a single other ship class, for any race, which has its bonuses limited by ammo type. That alone should prove how idiotic this is. Why don't we see amarr ships with UV crystal bonuses or Minmatar with Nuclear? Because it's stupid that's why. The kinetic missile bonuses is a lame cop-out when they cannot come up with a reasonable answer. Ditch it - remove ALL Of them across the board and replace them with universal rof, damage or velocity bonuses - heck make them less than 5% per level if needed for "balance", but give the ships a modifier that makes some sense.
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:44:00 - [933] Myrmidon needs to drop a high slot or two, drop its turret oomph, and have more drone space and THAT'S RIGHT I'M GOING TO SUGGEST IT AGAIN +1 controllable drone per level of advanced drone interfacing. Not per level of Battlecruiser, this way you get the bonus drones only if you skill for bonus drones on your way to becoming a carrier pilot anyways. That's right, I'm saying that you should be able to field, say, 10 medium drones. Or maybe 7 or 8 heavy drones, with a bay limit of 175/200. Maybe tie the bay limit to BC skills so you start with 100m3u at level 1, 125 and level 2, 150 at 3, 175 at 4, and 200 at 5. It's a ***ed drone ship, it's supposed to have drones. Look at the description: It pretty much screams I HAVE LOTS OF LOWSLOTS AND DRONE BOOSTS. Doesn't this thing not even get a mining bonus at the moment? Trivial maybe to some but ridiculous when you consider that for a drone ship, it's not got all that much in the way of drones! So yes. Let's have a drone ship, built for drone users! Let's have our glorious drone ship not have much in the way of guns, but much in the way of tanking! Let's have our ship scale strongly according to skill levels, so a non-drone user won't get much out of here but if you bother to train up BC, drones, t2 drones, and advanced drone interfacing, you can send out a squadron of mini-fighters. Any fool can hop in a Brutix and make it work, let's go for something a little nontraditional here: a dedicated drone boat that doesn't have the obvious HP and natural weapon system (or all around battleshipness) or ECM power of a Dominix, and doesn't have the speed or disposability of a Vexor or the flexibility, but is something in its own class: an actual* drone ship, a minicarrier. Drones need more love anyways. Including drone repair and damage boosting modules we can fit as high slots.
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:02:00 - [934] Originally by: Wolfgang Jager There is not a single other ship class, for any race, which has its bonuses limited by ammo type. See roden ship yards Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:15:00 - [935] Originally by: Wolfgang Jager It is time to make a stand, the absolutely idiotic Kinetic damage bonus has to be removed. Across the board, from ALL Caldari missile ships and replaced with something more appropriate. The kinetic bonus is lame, pointless and unjustified in EVERY case. If you use hard words to describe something, can we use hard words to describe how wrong you are? Nah, better not. Missiles do 100% EM damage compared to Kinetic missiles. Hybrid charges do 0% Explosive damage compared to Thermal damage. Laser crystals do about 55% EM damage and 45% Thermal damage. (Same for most projectiles with Exp and Kin, and for all hybrids with Kin and TH) Drones do 29% less EM damage than Thermal damage, and are also significantly slower than missiles. Projectiles actually do not do any damage type. If they want to deal lots of thermal damage they need to sacrifice quite a bit of damage, and if they want to deal lots of Exp and Kinetic, instead of EM and Exp, then they need to sacrifice around (iirc) 10% damage. Here's the explanation for you: Caldari ships get bonuses to Kinetic missile damage to make them slightly (read: SLIGHTLY) more predictable in damage type and allow others to tank a bit more specifically against them. We've already got a problem that specific tanks are rather stupid, so we don't need races having too much advantage running around with omni-damage. The Caldari kinetic missile damage bonus can easily be done away with IFF (if and only if) one of the following two are fulfilled: 1. Missiles deal two types of damage, racially aligned with Caldari's preference for (at least) the highest damaging missile (which would have the highest damaging missile deal 57% kinetic and 43% thermal) and logistically scaled so that damage can be sacrificed for range. 2. Missile damage is scaled similar to drones. Kinetic missiles deal 100% of original and comparable damage while the lowest yield missile deals 71% damage of what is comparable to it's peers (read: comparable as in "damage graphs") - EVE is sick.
Lord C'tan	Posted - 2006.11.18 14:29:00 - [936] Jesus CCP know how to annoy alot of people in a short time. PUT THE CHANGES RIGHT YOU CLOWNS. Give caldari a dmg ship. Give Minmatar ther PG back. And for god sake GIVE amarr more damage types. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.18 14:35:00 - [937] Originally by: Lord C'tan Jesus CCP know how to annoy alot of people in a short time. PUT THE CHANGES RIGHT YOU CLOWNS. Give caldari a dmg ship. Give Minmatar ther PG back. And for god sake GIVE amarr more damage types. The... love... goes in two directions I see. Amarr do not need more damage types, for your information. What leads people to think this is faults at OTHER underlying factors, and THOSE need to be addressed. - EVE is sick.
Kaden Seer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.18 14:42:00 - [938] Like I said, Myrmie needs more drone bay. Come on doods, do the right thing. <<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> More drone bay for Myrmidon!
Cyberus	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:26:00 - [939] Originally by: Wolfgang Jager It is time to make a stand, the absolutely idiotic Kinetic damage bonus has to be removed. Across the board, from ALL Caldari missile ships and replaced with something more appropriate. The kinetic bonus is lame, pointless and unjustified in EVERY case. There is not a single other ship class, for any race, which has its bonuses limited by ammo type. That alone should prove how idiotic this is. Why don't we see amarr ships with UV crystal bonuses or Minmatar with Nuclear? Because it's stupid that's why. The kinetic missile bonuses is a lame cop-out when they cannot come up with a reasonable answer. Ditch it - remove ALL Of them across the board and replace them with universal rof, damage or velocity bonuses - heck make them less than 5% per level if needed for "balance", but give the ships a modifier that makes some sense. Like i said before this bonus is lame. totaly agree with this guy. Think about guys(ccp) meaby its time change this stupid bonus for something better?????????
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:27:00 - [940] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: cy4n1d3 Uh, actually when it came to BattleCruisers, which is what we're talking about, the British favored bigger guns (and guns that fired twice as fast due to their unstable propellant) and speed with no armor, while the Germans favored smaller guns (and safer slow firing propellant) and speed with heavy armor. Go do some research or something. 1. 4 Mids isn't that great. It's the bare minimum for an AC ship because you have to get in really close. You always need a mwd/web/scram so that's always 3 taken automatically. 2. I don't know about this "freaking fantastic" tank crap. You might be able to fit all that, but you're going to be doing crap damage because you have to fit 180 2's and no gyro's, good luck killing anything larger than a frigate. Do you know how fast 7 180 2's fire with a 25% rof bonus + skills + gyros (if you have room for them)? So you know how much ammo of each type you need to have in your bay for a single fight? A lot. Barrage, Hail, EMP at the least. So how much room does that leave for cap injector charges? Like 1 or 2 800's, if you want to have enough ammo to last in a fight for more than a minute, and it will last a long time with your crap damage. Plus, with your "freaking fantastic" config, since you have a MWD mounted, most of your cap will be gone by the time you actually get to your target, and that wastes your first couple charges. Have you ever actually flown Minmitar ships? I have for 3 years, maybe you should try it, before making posts in which you pretend to be an expert on them. You're wrong on all 3 of your points. This is why I don't post on the forums, because of idiots like you that clog it up with your bull**. I thought the Devs were smart enough not to listen to noobs like you, but apparently they are, and they nerfed 2 perfectly good ships because of it. I did do research, for instance at the battle of the jutlands, there was one brittish boat with 13.5" guns, the rest were 12", the same size as the German BC's. 1. 4 Mids isnt superfantastic aweseomsauce yes, but it is still good, and good enough for PvP. 2. It doesnt really matter whether or not you know about the frigging fantastic tank or not, because its there. Its guns use no cap and it can fit an injected dual MAR II tank with a 1600 plate. With 2 EAN's/2MAR/1600mm/Gyro you will do plenty of damage. As well, you do not have to drop down to 180's As well, ammo was cut in size in kali by about a half As well, all auto cannons were given lower RoF and a Higher damage to compensate And this doesnt include rigs, which are easy to fit due to the low PG of AC's. It has a better tank than a prophesy*, the prophesy has better resists yes, but a prophesy has to fit small guns before it can fit an injected dual MARII setup with a 1600 plate. You can do very very good damage on the thing and still have a ridiculous tank, that is the problem. The fact that you cannot see that doesnt matter. This is why the problem with the thing was never the guns or the damage, but it was the tank you could fit with those guns and that damage. Yes, we all understand that it was this combo of tank+gank that worried CCP, but why the fck did CCP nerf the gank! All they have to do is increase pg of 1600s, theres no f*ckin reason to drop it a turret point. Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"

Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:28:00 - [941] All I ever remember is people saying the drake was SLIGHTLY overpowered, and the myr needs more drone. I saw very little mention of the Hurricane and Harbringer, again the problem is the tank not the damage.
Torment Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:48:00 - [942] Tux after testing you seem to have the new BC balancing near spot on...its up to you if you give into the whiners here...if you do it will be to the detriment of this game, Its your call.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:41:00 - [943] Originally by: Torment Tux after testing you seem to have the new BC balancing near spot on...its up to you if you give into the whiners here...if you do it will be to the detriment of this game, Its your call. Ok... where are your facts mr. know it all? The hurricane still does the same dps but now has to use SP in secondary weapons to get it. The problem is still there, or do you not see it? Then who is the whiner? The guy who has facts on his side or the guy, like you, who just don't want people who have better ideas to get justice. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:41:00 - [944] Can someone explain me purpose of BC ? Old BC are to big and to slow to flight in cruser gangs and have to low firepower to serve in fleet battles. New BC should change this, but it looks the will remain as mid platform between BB and CL, witch worth to be trained only becose CS. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
cy4n1d3	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:45:00 - [945] Torment, you're a ******* noob. You know how long people have been waiting for a decent Min BC just to see it get nerfed before it comes out? The Cyclone has been crap since it came out. Crap damage, crap tank. Cal and Amarr and Gal already have great tier1 BC's, 2 Resist bonuses and great DPS on the Brutix. Now we finally had something decent and they nerf it. Put back its 7th turret, and lower its PG some more if you want. Take off some armor, or a low slot. Just leave its damage alone.
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:08:00 - [946] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427093 Looks like the drake changes are final. If jav HAMs stay the same then NH will be nerfed in a matter of time on TQ. There goes my BC5 skill down the drain sigh. Time to spec BS I guess.
Orion Shurtak Amarr Free Player Corp	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:59:00 - [947] Originally by: Jaxtet Edited by: Jaxtet on 17/11/2006 18:56:53 Edited by: Jaxtet on 17/11/2006 18:56:12 Originally by: Orion Shurtak I knew it as too good to be true. Heaven forbid we let the caldari get through a major patch (or any content patch for that matter) that doesn't involve a nerf on them. WTG CCP Technically nothing was ever nerfed. If the Drake had gone live AND then been readjusted to where it is now - that would be a nerf. What has happened is testing and balancing on a TEST server. It's part of a QA process. Heaven forbid players confuse test code with live, production code. You have a valid point. My point is, they gave it the stats it had originally for some reason. I know these things are thought out before they even do it. They must have thought the caldari needed something with those stats or they wouldn't have done it. My question is why would they make such a drastic change? Are they saying that the original stats were given by a dev who was on ***** at the time or are they saying we listen to those who whine the most? An explanation is all I would like. I will take what is given, but communication is the key. -------------------------------------------------- Free Player Corporation
Darkenral	Posted - 2006.11.18 19:46:00 - [948] The nerfs are very disappointing I was reallllly looking forward to the new BC'ers for good - disposable - insurable PVP boats. Not to mention that coupled with invention they would have lowered HAC prices as people would have viable alternatives. Post nerfs = More ships I wont be flying YAY! EVE is getting to the point where you have to grind so long to fund any sort of PVP in good equipment thats its kinda silly. Unless ofc your 1 of the .02% That has A HAC BPO =/ Dark
Hydrian Alante The Loot Company	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:05:00 - [949] Yay everyboday that goes out for PvP flies faction fitted HACs and Command ships. Some ppl should really open their eyes.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:14:00 - [950] Originally by: Areconus Yes, we all understand that it was this combo of tank+gank that worried CCP, but why the fck did CCP nerf the gank! All they have to do is increase pg of 1600s, theres no fckin reason to drop it a turret point. I really dont know, I was just explaining to the guy that yes, you really can make it work.

2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:45:00 - [951] Originally by: Hydrian Alante Yay everyboday that goes out for PvP flies faction fitted HACs and Command ships. Some ppl should really open their eyes. Well, apparantly in order for drake to be subpar they need to have T2 launchers, which cost about 9mil more per launcher than a T2 turret. I give up on missle boats. I'm going to use my amarr flying character mostly now.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:29:00 - [952] Originally by: cy4n1d3 Torment, you're a ***** noob. You know how long people have been waiting for a decent Min BC just to see it get nerfed before it comes out? The Cyclone has been crap since it came out. Crap damage, crap tank. Cal and Amarr and Gal already have great tier1 BC's, 2 Resist bonuses and great DPS on the Brutix. Now we finally had something decent and they nerf it. Put back its 7th turret, and lower its PG some more if you want. Take off some armor, or a low slot. Just leave its damage alone. althought I dont think the hurricane has quite become useless with the recent changes I would much rather loose 150 powergrid from its original layout or whatever needs to come off and then keep the 7th turret, I am kinda tired of split weapon systems and was really looking forward to getting a 7 turret ship before I had finished skilling to fly a sleipnir Originally by:** Pinky Denmark Caldari have other options like using rails or train for other ships/weapons...
Dahak2150	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:38:00 - [953] I have a minor complaint about the harbinger. The 7th turret, doomed to sit away from the rest, is placed rather oddly. The dorsal half is fine, right along the spine like an Omen. However, the ventral unit is weird. Placed off on the right side of the nose, instead of directly under. This may be a throwback to having 8 turrets, where another would balance it out on the left, with it's counterpart on the back as well. Perhaps we could just move the turret so it's slightly behind the two tusks, on that flat stretch of raised metal. Other than that, I love the ship to death, and I'm going to be grabbing one the moment I can. If you're on IE, pretend this is transparent while you get a better browser.
Foible	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:41:00 - [954] Originally by: Chronojam Myrmidon needs to drop a high slot or two, drop its turret oomph, and have more drone space and THAT'S RIGHT I'M GOING TO SUGGEST IT AGAIN +1 controllable drone per level of advanced drone interfacing. Not per level of Battlecruiser, this way you get the bonus drones only if you skill for bonus drones on your way to becoming a carrier pilot anyways. That's right, I'm saying that you should be able to field, say, 10 medium drones. Or maybe 7 or 8 heavy drones, with a bay limit of 175/200. Maybe tie the bay limit to BC skills so you start with 100m3u at level 1, 125 and level 2, 150 at 3, 175 at 4, and 200 at 5. It's a ***ed drone ship, it's supposed to have drones. Look at the description: It pretty much screams I HAVE LOTS OF LOWSLOTS AND DRONE BOOSTS. Doesn't this thing not even get a mining bonus at the moment? Trivial maybe to some but ridiculous when you consider that for a drone ship, it's not got all that much in the way of drones! So yes. Let's have a drone ship, built for drone users! Let's have our glorious drone ship not have much in the way of guns, but much in the way of tanking! Let's have our ship scale strongly according to skill levels, so a non-drone user won't get much out of here but if you bother to train up BC, drones, t2 drones, and advanced drone interfacing, you can send out a squadron of mini-fighters. Any fool can hop in a Brutix and make it work, let's go for something a little nontraditional here: a dedicated drone boat that doesn't have the obvious HP and natural weapon system (or all around battleshipness) or ECM power of a Dominix, and doesn't have the speed or disposability of a Vexor or the flexibility, but is something in its own class: an actual* drone ship, a minicarrier. Drones need more love anyways. Including drone repair and damage boosting modules we can fit as high slots. I would LOVE to fly a ship like this. As it stands, the Myrmidon, while not as horrible as some here would suggest, just seems kind of boring. What a waste of such an awesome ship model.
Comanche Banshee	Posted - 2006.11.19 12:08:00 - [955] Edited by: Comanche Banshee on 19/11/2006 12:08:42 I hope I'm not being too uninformed here as I haven't read through ALL pages (over 30) but from where I stand I am getting from yall that the Harbinger (yes I'm amarr and I am mostly concerned with that at the moment) used to but no longer has combat effective bonuses. If I am correct now then it's bonuses are per level: -10% reduced cap use for med energy turrets -10% increased rate of fire for med energy turrets Would it not be reasonable to give them the same bonus that the minmatar BC gets and give it a 5% bonus to med turret damage per level rather than the increased rate of fire? I'm not trying to say that I know better but wouldn't that work or has that already been suggested 50 times and shot down?
Asariasha Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.19 12:19:00 - [956] reduced cap need and RoF bonus ARE combat related boni. Over all you can shoot 50% faster by 50% less cap usage meaning that, well you have theoretically 10,5 turrets? And no, I will not begin to whine about theoretical 10,5turrets as some other Amarr/Gallente fanbois did
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.19 13:55:00 - [957] Originally by: Comanche Banshee Edited by: Comanche Banshee on 19/11/2006 12:08:42 I hope I'm not being too uninformed here as I haven't read through ALL pages (over 30) but from where I stand I am getting from yall that the Harbinger (yes I'm amarr and I am mostly concerned with that at the moment) used to but no longer has combat effective bonuses. If I am correct now then it's bonuses are per level: -10% reduced cap use for med energy turrets -10% increased rate of fire for med energy turrets Would it not be reasonable to give them the same bonus that the minmatar BC gets and give it a 5% bonus to med turret damage per level rather than the increased rate of fire? I'm not trying to say that I know better but wouldn't that work or has that already been suggested 50 times and shot down? No, the bonuses are 10% reduced cap use for med lasers 5% increased damage for med lasers. Also a 5% RoF boost is better than a 5% damage boost, a 10% boost would be four times as good as a 5% damage boost.
Comanche Banshee	Posted - 2006.11.19 14:38:00 - [958] I see, thanks for clearing that up. -CB
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.19 14:47:00 - [959] Originally by: Wolfgang Jager There is not a single other ship class, for any race, which has its bonuses limited by ammo type. you may want to do some more research into non-caldari ships before you go and claim something like that.
Admiral Pieg Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.19 16:01:00 - [960] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Wolfgang Jager There is not a single other ship class, for any race, which has its bonuses limited by ammo type. you may want to do some more research into non-caldari ships before you go and claim something like that. prolly meant damage type ______________ Pod from above.

Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.19 17:04:00 - [961] Originally by: Admiral Pieg Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Wolfgang Jager There is not a single other ship class, for any race, which has its bonuses limited by ammo type. you may want to do some more research into non-caldari ships before you go and claim something like that. prolly meant damage type would still be wrong then.
Kaden Seer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.19 18:20:00 - [962] Why are you comparing EVE to what the British and Germans had way back then? There are no similarities, come on. Anyway, more drone bay for Myrmee and unnerf the hurricane! <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> More drone bay for Myrmidon!!!
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.11.20 09:43:00 - [963] HUrricane is still a good ship, not THE GOOD SHIP, but good. Most minmatar pilots already have SP on both missiles and guns so tehy wont be affected.. this wil just prevent a mass of players cross training just to fly it. And will diminish thedemand on hurricanes and keep prices reasonable. The problem on changing plates is the efcet on too many ships. If plates are to be touched i would increase the weight added. Anyway its not like putiing a 1600mm plate will not hamper a good amount of the PG and reduce weapons possibilities. There isa reason AC have such low pog .. its to be able to fit a good tank that is needed when using them.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.11.20 11:59:00 - [964] Any word on an increase of the drone bay for the Myrmidon? I think the opinion on the forums is practically unanimous on this, considering that: Increasing the drone bonus will overpower the medium drones; Increasing the drone bay but applying the bonus only to medium and light drones is actually a nerf (can't stress this enough); The DPS increase for using 5 heavies instead of 4 is minimal (around 50 for average resist); and Without an increase in drone bay the Myrmidon will not have the staying power to be useful in PvP. A drone boat where the majority of the DPS has to come from 6 blaster turrets at breathtakingly short range is not a drone boat, it is a blaster boat. We already have a BC that can do that in the Brutix (not to mention two BS soon as well). Tux, please give the Gallente some diversity. Turn the Myrmidon into a true drone boat and fix the drone issues (as in the drone whinage thread). I would like a Damperion for the Hyperion as well, but as a drone user my focus is on the Myrmidon. As it is now, the Myrmidon will not be used. Which is a shame, because it really looks good. -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:14:00 - [965] Quote: The Hurricane already has a crap tank and only 4 mids. 4 Mids is crap. You can't PVP with 4 mids. This voids every PvP related post you have ever made until now. So what you're basically saying is that only Caldari and a select few Minmatar and Gallente ships can PvP. You're ace. Really. This should go in my sig... Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
KorAnu	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:42:00 - [966] Please give the Myrmidon a similar drone bonus to the Moros restricted to light and medium drones Thanx
TalanR Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 13:43:00 - [967] Originally by: Berrik Radhok You guys can thank Selene for the Drake nerf as he whined to a dev about it at fanfest. Fun fact: Selene also owns a Cereberus BPO thx, now i will have to stick to my caracal. Seriously the DPS of the Drake with jav HAMS was to much but fix the T2 HAMS and remove the tanking ability of the ship but don't take away the DPS. True, it's better than a ferox but 95% of the ship in game are better than a ferox. Just make it a BIG caracal! another patch and another calari nerf. when all of kali is released the best PvP ship we have will be the Ibis
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:00:00 - [968] Actually, in general, they need to boost battlecruisers (strictly T1 battlecruisers, not T2). Either they need to approach battleship power a bit more (kind of how the Hurricane was prior to the... fix) or they need to approach cruiser longevity a bit more (signature radius is currently 3/4 of battleship, could be 1/2). In other words, either they need to take some more of the benefits of battleships or some of the benefit of cruisers. Right now the T1 (both tiers) are squat in the middle. Myself, I'd prefere bumping their fire power up a bit. Which would mean: * undo Hurricane... fix * give back a Drake hardpoint and fix the tank+gank problem instead (remove the tank bonus) * boost Myrmidon drone bay * add a couple of Ferox turrets * and so on. - EVE is sick.
Kaden Seer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:40:00 - [969] Ja, what he said ^ <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> More drone bay for Myrmidon!!!
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:27:00 - [970] I have a slightly off topic, yet on topic question here: As I haven't been flying minmatar for very long now, I just realized something and was wondering-- what is the reason for the large discrepencies between powergrid usage of autocannons and artillery? It seems that the huge difference makes fitting full racks of artillery nearly impossible, yet when fitting ac's leaves huge amounts of grid open for other options. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes

Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:55:00 - [971] Imode, I don't think anyone really know. According to devs it is the ACs that are low on fitting, not the other way around. Then you can argue that certain ships Minmatar ships possibly have a wee bit too low powergrid. On the other hand, it does give the devs a good tool to enforce AC usage on ships, although a similar option for artillery doesn't exist. It is sort of how blasters and rails should relate, though; blasters high on PG, rails high on CPU. That way you could make Gallente ships more CC and Caldari turret ships more snipe - but honestly this need doesn't exist with projectiles. - EVE is sick.
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2006.11.20 21:25:00 - [972] What are the best tier 2 bc actually (with last modification) ?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 22:55:00 - [973] Originally by: Kirov VIII What are the best tier 2 bc actually (with last modification) ? /me scratches head. Can't be Harbringer, can it? No wai! It's Amarr. - EVE is sick.
Coryn Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.20 23:40:00 - [974] Edited by: Coryn on 20/11/2006 23:40:43 Originally by: Kirov VIII What are the best tier 2 bc actually (with last modification) ? Myrmidon and Harbinger i think, i like both Myrmidon overhaul is now: 6-5-6, with 6 Turret Hardpoints and 1175pwg This leads to very nice pve fittings, cause you can fit a full armor tank now and obviously a magstab with 200m guns would add some damage now. I hope the Harbinger will stay as it is atm with the damage bonus. but i fear they cut one turret hardpoint too.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.21 00:06:00 - [975] Originally by: Coryn Edited by: Coryn on 20/11/2006 23:40:43 Originally by: Kirov VIII What are the best tier 2 bc actually (with last modification) ? Myrmidon and Harbinger i think, i like both Myrmidon overhaul is now: 6-5-6, with 6 Turret Hardpoints and 1175pwg This leads to very nice pve fittings, cause you can fit a full armor tank now and obviously a magstab with 200m guns would add some damage now. I hope the Harbinger will stay as it is atm with the damage bonus. but i fear they cut one turret hardpoint too. They wont cut a turret hardpoint. Then it would have the same problems as it had with the previous Hurricane[and still have really, since with high skills the missile hardpoints allow the Hurricane to do neary as much damage as it did while still retaining the massive tank that it had before] which they were supposed to fix by boosting the Harbinger[say, to 8 turrets and get rid of that lopsided abomination], but didnt for reasons that no one really knows.
Lisian Tonoko	Posted - 2006.11.21 14:13:00 - [976] Would be nice to see the return of the 'guardian vexor' in the form of Myrmidon. Instead of making it the same in setup like the Ishkur, Ishtar, Vexor and Dominix with small waves of tough drones, going the mini carrier road and swarms of medium drones with maybe a few heavy amidst. Total of 10 or more drones in simultanious flight? This would be nice as it could provide coverage against multiple ships in small scale engagements. Concentrated on fellow BC, spread out when facing small ships. A bit like how the gallente Dreadnaught differs from its fellow shiplings^^. If the popular consencus is not giving it 5 heavies (by increasing dronebay to allow the numbers), then I dont see any other way for it to remain a 'Droneship' and be worse off then the others in its field, except with increase of numbers. The 'TIE Fighter' approach. Swarm with susperior engines and targetting systems and numbers, sacrificing durability and overal power. This seems to have been suggested before.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.21 15:41:00 - [977] Myrmidon has 125m3 drone bay now, too bad the model is now incredibly broken so it cant be tested. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.21 15:53:00 - [978] Well this was disappointing... Here I take a break form Eve to wait for Kali, and when I come back for a little intel I see the Drake's gotten nerfed. Yes, I knew it would happen. The Drake looked like an Iwin button with its bonuses. "Nerf! Nuuurf!!!" I hear as soon as I check the forums. "Ok. Was gonna happen, but its still gonna be my first Caldari ship that can hold its own against equal Pvp'ers!" :) Thats what I thought. But then I saw what the nerf did. (Could anyone tell me exactly what got nerfed btw?) Tux removed a launcher and replaced the rof bonus with kinetic damage. I also hear rumblings about lower grid. Wow. Tux managed to make the only Caldari ship that could actually solo pvp, into a pve ship. I cant help feeling ******... Many pages ago I wrote a couple of posts about the Drake prolly being overpowered, and suggested what could be nerfed. The resistbonus. Why give the resistbonus every other Caldari RAIL ship use?! No single missile ship in the Caldari fleet has this bonus, but every other rail ship does. I admit that the kinetic dmg bonus is used on the other missile ships, excluding Raven. But let's face it. NO ONE wants that kinetic damage bonus, except people running Gurista and Serpentis missions. The Kinetic damage bonus makes the Drake useless in pvp. Everyone and their mother tanks kinetic. Thanks alot Tux, you gave us another PvE ship. A ship that lack the fitting to actually do better than the missilerox in missions. A ship that has no use in PvP against evenly matched opponents. Please Tuxford. Give the Drake back the launcher and RoF bonus, and get rid of the resist bonus. The resist bonus has nothing to do on a missile ship. And is probably what made the Drake overpowered in the first place. Actually, if you still think its overpowered, remove the 7th launcher as well, just make it into the pvp gank ship it was supposed to be! Thanks for reading my post (if you do) and I hope you take my thoughts into consideration -JM -JM
cy4n1d3	Posted - 2006.11.21 16:07:00 - [979] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: The Hurricane already has a crap tank and only 4 mids. 4 Mids is crap. You can't PVP with 4 mids. This voids every PvP related post you have ever made until now. So what you're basically saying is that only Caldari and a select few Minmatar and Gallente ships can PvP. You're ace. Really. This should go in my sig... Obviously I wasn't being literal. You can still pvp with 4 mids, but on a solo pvp AC or Blaster setup you're going to kind of suck with 4 mids. You always need a mwd/web/scram to get close to your target and hold it there, and probably an injector, and that takes up 3-4, leaving little room for any kind of shield tank/ecm/etc. Caldari are the best solo PVP ships because of this. I soloed a Vaga in a t1 Ferox once. Ships with 3 mids like the majority of Amarr ships I rarely see fighting in solo pvp. I don't blame them, I can fly most Amarr ships but never do. They have a few really good ones though, like their command ship and hacs and of course the Geddon at long range, but most Amarr ships are good for fleet pvp because they are low on mids. I always solo, so I don't use them. It's also why I don't use the Phoon or Muninn in solo PVP anymore. I'd probably die to a Ferox or something. After this patch the Vaga will probably suck ass too. It only has 4 mids and Barrage is getting a tracking penalty. Would be nice to be able to fit a track comp 2 on it to compensate, with a shield tank or ECM, but it's only got 4 mids. 3 of those = MWD/web/disruptor. You know the main reason why it costs 300mil instead of 100 like the Muninn? 4 midslots instead of 3.
Jaxtet Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.21 16:20:00 - [980] Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon has 125m3 drone bay now, too bad the model is now incredibly broken so it cant be tested. Well, its an improvement :) 5 heavies, no spares 2 waves of mediums + a couple of spare mediums or lights 4 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 light - It's great to have a life outside of a video game, ain't it?«

Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.21 18:18:00 - [981] Originally by: cy4n1d3 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: The Hurricane already has a crap tank and only 4 mids. 4 Mids is crap. You can't PVP with 4 mids. This voids every PvP related post you have ever made until now. So what you're basically saying is that only Caldari and a select few Minmatar and Gallente ships can PvP. You're ace. Really. This should go in my sig... Obviously I wasn't being literal. You can still pvp with 4 mids, but on a solo pvp AC or Blaster setup you're going to kind of suck with 4 mids. You always need a mwd/web/scram to get close to your target and hold it there, and probably an injector, and that takes up 3-4, leaving little room for any kind of shield tank/ecm/etc. Caldari are the best solo PVP ships because of this. I soloed a Vaga in a t1 Ferox once. Ships with 3 mids like the majority of Amarr ships I rarely see fighting in solo pvp. I don't blame them, I can fly most Amarr ships but never do. They have a few really good ones though, like their command ship and hacs and of course the Geddon at long range, but most Amarr ships are good for fleet pvp because they are low on mids. I always solo, so I don't use them. It's also why I don't use the Phoon or Muninn in solo PVP anymore. I'd probably die to a Ferox or something. After this patch the Vaga will probably suck ass too. It only has 4 mids and Barrage is getting a tracking penalty. Would be nice to be able to fit a track comp 2 on it to compensate, with a shield tank or ECM, but it's only got 4 mids. 3 of those = MWD/web/disruptor. You know the main reason why it costs 300mil instead of 100 like the Muninn? 4 midslots instead of 3. I hope they nerf ewar into oblivion for winners like you. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Mordrake MetaForge	Posted - 2006.11.21 18:31:00 - [982] Well I can't freakin Believe it... the Drake is now NERFED!! Big Time... and here I was all exited to actually have a half decent Caldari Missile boat to fly.... Congradulations all you peeps who *****ed and moaned about it!! GOOD JOB! And congrats CCP for screwing over the Caldari yet again. "Arte et Marte"
Mysterlee Gallente 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.21 19:24:00 - [983] Now that we've finally been given the ability to field 5 heavy drones on the myrmidon, how about another 25m3 to make it up to 150m3? This will allow it to carry 5 heavy drones and 5 light drones which is something that is pretty much required in pvp to cover all bases. As it is now it would have to carry 4 heavy drones and 5 light drones and since its a drone ship this doesnt seem right. The vexor has a 75m3 drone bay so it can carry 5 medium drones and 5 light drones, can we please have the same ability with the myrmidon but with 5 heavy drones and 5 light drones?
Kaden Seer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.21 20:08:00 - [984] Originally by: Jaedar Metron I cant help feeling ******... Many pages ago I wrote a couple of posts about the Drake prolly being overpowered, and suggested what could be nerfed. The resistbonus. Why give the resistbonus every other Caldari RAIL ship uses?! No single missile ship in the Caldari fleet has this bonus, but every other rail ship does. I admit that the kinetic dmg bonus is used on the other missile ships, excluding Raven. But let's face it. NO ONE wants that kinetic damage bonus, except people running Gurista and Serpentis missions. The Kinetic damage bonus makes the Drake useless in pvp. Everyone and their mother tanks kinetic. Thanks alot Tux, you gave us another PvE ship. A ship that lack the fitting to actually do better than the missilerox in missions. A ship that has no use in PvP against evenly matched opponents. Please Tuxford. Give the Drake back the launcher and RoF bonus, and get rid of the resist bonus. The resist bonus has nothing to do on a missile ship. And is probably what made the Drake overpowered in the first place. Actually, if you still think its overpowered, remove the 7th launcher as well, just make it into the pvp gank ship it was supposed to be! Thanks for reading my post (if you do) and I hope you take my thoughts into consideration I agree with him ^, thanks for the drone space on the myrmie, though, could use more, but I'm happy
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.21 20:17:00 - [985] Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon has 125m3 drone bay now, too bad the model is now incredibly broken so it cant be tested. I know this sounds ungrateful, but the point people've been trying to make about the Myrmidon is that it lack replacements. All they've done now is add a bit of DPS to the ship - DPS it needed, but the MAIN problem remains. And you know what? It's not going to be tweaked after this. It'll just present Myrmidons a logistic nightmare forever, because the difference between one flight of drones with replacements and one flight of drones without doesn't show up on paper (everyone just assumes that a drone ship magically reloads drones just like turrets or missiles reload ammo from cargo) The Myrmidon STILL needs larger drone bay. Oh, and does it still have 6 turrets? It doesn't need that many turrets. In fact, sacrifice one or a couple for (at least) a doubled drone bay is a needed sacrifice. - EVE is sick.
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.21 21:09:00 - [986] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon has 125m3 drone bay now, too bad the model is now incredibly broken so it cant be tested. I know this sounds ungrateful, but the point people've been trying to make about the Myrmidon is that it lack replacements. All they've done now is add a bit of DPS to the ship - DPS it needed, but the MAIN problem remains. And you know what? It's not going to be tweaked after this. It'll just present Myrmidons a logistic nightmare forever, because the difference between one flight of drones with replacements and one flight of drones without doesn't show up on paper (everyone just assumes that a drone ship magically reloads drones just like turrets or missiles reload ammo from cargo) The Myrmidon STILL needs larger drone bay. Oh, and does it still have 6 turrets? It doesn't need that many turrets. In fact, sacrifice one or a couple for (at least) a doubled drone bay is a needed sacrifice. I think that Myrmidon is perfectly fine as it is. Sure, it is not the best droneboat, but is has great versatility. Want to turn it into a dampener/gang boat? No problem. Want to turn it into a weird mix or blaster/droneboat? No problem, fit blasters and be happy. Want to turn into a NOS droneboay? Sure, go for it, medium drones II are far enough if you want replacements. If you want to use heavies with replacement waves, go for Dominix, not Myrmidon. That is the tradeoff for using heavy drones in a BC IMO. Without to say you can use gang module on that baby. I like the 6 turrets on it and not only for graphic issue. I like being able to fit weird but effective setups with plates and 6 light blasters. So no, no need to remove turrets, the ship is freaking useful and versatile as it is now.
James Draekn X.E.N.O. Breidablik	Posted - 2006.11.21 23:05:00 - [987] I can't remember how many pages the "Fix BC Agility & Sig radius" was. But if they introduce the tier 2 BC and not fix the broke tier 1 BC in Kali; without LISTENING to the player base I'm sure they are going to get another 30-40 page post full of signatures. Considering this thread has more posts to it then the Battleship thread, I figure that these ships need to be introduced UNNERFED. Otherwise I'm sure the the forum warriors are going to go to work. some of the ideas so far: OLD Hurricane minus a bit of grid to decrease tank OLD Drake minus the resist bonus (some other bonus, NO KINETIC DAMAGE bonus) and T2 Jav HAMs need balancing Harbringer needs a additional turret more grid to fit it and alot better capacitor (and lasers need to be fixed) Myrmidion 250m3 drone bay, (NOTHING LESS THEN THIS) more would be better. Ferox minus 2 missile slot and add 2 turret slots and give the grid nessasary to fit 250mm's
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.11.21 23:07:00 - [988] Give the Myrmidon a 150 or 175 bay and 4 turret slots as tradeoff, six turrets is too much especially with the recent nerfs to other bcs. Speaking of recent nerf, while I dont like the turret reduction on the hurricane I can somehow understand the reasoning behind it looking at the sleipnir doing less damage without maxed skills then a hurri with 7 turrets. However the grid reduction is too much on top of that especially looking at the gallente and amarr tier 2 bc being still/now really good. If your goal was to give minmatar a crappy BS AND a crappy BC with revelations, then keep the ships as they are by all means....
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.21 23:18:00 - [989] Originally by: Ithildin The Myrmidon STILL needs larger drone bay. Agreed. Originally by: Ithildin Oh, and does it still have 6 turrets? It doesn't need that many turrets. In fact, sacrifice one or a couple for (at least) a doubled drone bay is a needed sacrifice. Nope, still 6. Totally nonsensical, just like the Drake and Hurricane changes. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.21 23:44:00 - [990] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Ithildin The Myrmidon STILL needs larger drone bay. Agreed. Originally by: Ithildin Oh, and does it still have 6 turrets? It doesn't need that many turrets. In fact, sacrifice one or a couple for (at least) a doubled drone bay is a needed sacrifice. Nope, still 6. Totally nonsensical, just like the Drake and Hurricane changes. I perfectly agree, don¦t touch Myrmidon turrets. It is like saying that Dominix is overpowered because of its 6 turrets slots. It is its capability to fit ECM+NOS which turns it into a freak, not its 6 turrets slots it can¦t even fit properly with its low powergrid.

Phoenixhawk Caldari Farscape Mining	Posted - 2006.11.21 23:44:00 - [991] THB, The Drake WAS the only new ship i was thinking about bothering to get, It didnt have any screwed up wings, (Was still ticked that it couldnt fit 8 launhers) But i was willing to take seven, pop back in to help stress, and cant undock due to meh ship having too many launchers, WTF. There is like some law that you can fit full high's with Guns but lord for ccp bid, you get the option to do that with launchers. (personaly i belive ccp should do away with Missle Launcher / Turrent Hardpoints altogether and make it so a High Slot is a High Slot. Yea missles always hit, (sometimes for a whopping 0.1 but they do) but they dont even come clost to the raw damage of guns, and nothing sucks worse than trying to carry around 700 types of ammo for multiple weaponsystems. well ok maybe the current lag on Tq still sucks more than that, but you know what i mean. not asking for my 700 damage to all torps back (though i wouldnt mind them) just to be able to use all missles or all guns on a single ship. For rails, I Fly Gallente Stay Chilly & Watch Your Six! Space Vampire
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.22 00:01:00 - [992] Originally by: cy4n1d3 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: The Hurricane already has a crap tank and only 4 mids. 4 Mids is crap. You can't PVP with 4 mids. This voids every PvP related post you have ever made until now. So what you're basically saying is that only Caldari and a select few Minmatar and Gallente ships can PvP. You're ace. Really. This should go in my sig... Obviously I wasn't being literal. You can still pvp with 4 mids, but on a solo pvp AC or Blaster setup you're going to kind of suck with 4 mids. You always need a mwd/web/scram to get close to your target and hold it there, and probably an injector, and that takes up 3-4, leaving little room for any kind of shield tank/ecm/etc. Caldari are the best solo PVP ships because of this. I soloed a Vaga in a t1 Ferox once. Ships with 3 mids like the majority of Amarr ships I rarely see fighting in solo pvp. I don't blame them, I can fly most Amarr ships but never do. They have a few really good ones though, like their command ship and hacs and of course the Geddon at long range, but most Amarr ships are good for fleet pvp because they are low on mids. I always solo, so I don't use them. It's also why I don't use the Phoon or Muninn in solo PVP anymore. I'd probably die to a Ferox or something. After this patch the Vaga will probably suck ass too. It only has 4 mids and Barrage is getting a tracking penalty. Would be nice to be able to fit a track comp 2 on it to compensate, with a shield tank or ECM, but it's only got 4 mids. 3 of those = MWD/web/disruptor. You know the main reason why it costs 300mil instead of 100 like the Muninn? 4 midslots instead of 3. Wtf? you just contradicted yourself. You said 4 mids is not enough to pvp with, yet right after that you listed one of the best tanking setups with 4 mids. Mwd Web Scram Injector So, how is this bad? Is the megathron bad at pvp? Is the Brutix bad at pvp? Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.11.22 00:04:00 - [993] The Drake is an overpriced Ferox now. It was the only Missile boat that we have ever seen that could have been awesome for SOLO PVP (just like every other race gets to enjoy). It needed it's Tank nerfed not the offensive side. Tux ****** up and now we have another awesome PVE ship. I'll save my ISK when Revelations comes out. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.22 00:12:00 - [994] Originally by: Kalhystia I perfectly agree, don¦t touch Myrmidon turrets. It is like saying that Dominix is overpowered because of its 6 turrets slots. It is its capability to fit ECM+NOS which turns it into a freak, not its 6 turrets slots it can¦t even fit properly with its low powergrid. You misunderstand. I meant its totally non-sensical to boost its drone bay and NOT remove turrets. I think they should give it 250m3+ and drop 2-3 turrets and 1-200MW of grid. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.22 00:21:00 - [995] Originally by: Majin82 The Drake is an overpriced Ferox now. It was the only Missile boat that we have ever seen that could have been awesome for SOLO PVP (just like every other race gets to enjoy). It needed it's Tank nerfed not the offensive side. Tux ****** up and now we have another awesome PVE ship. I'll save my ISK when Revelations comes out. oh i'm sorry... this is this a funeral? SOMEone told me this is the room to celebrate 7 more days till revelations is live. -the gallente got the boost they needed, -the drake and hurricane are not pwning battleships -amarr is uhh... well i never pay attention to them, i'm sure they will make due with whatever they get as always hey, did anyone hear the drake is an overpriced ferox? I dont think anyone on the forums has said that yet you can cut the sarcasm w/ a knife i bet :P i just finished BC lvl 5 ! hurricane here i come. look out drake pilots (well those of you that are still going to be able to fly a ship that actually has drawbacks and isn't overpowered.)
Mordrake MetaForge	Posted - 2006.11.22 01:02:00 - [996] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Majin82 The Drake is an overpriced Ferox now. It was the only Missile boat that we have ever seen that could have been awesome for SOLO PVP (just like every other race gets to enjoy). It needed it's Tank nerfed not the offensive side. Tux ****** up and now we have another awesome PVE ship. I'll save my ISK when Revelations comes out. oh i'm sorry... this is this a funeral? SOMEone told me this is the room to celebrate 7 more days till revelations is live. -the gallente got the boost they needed, -the drake and hurricane are not pwning battleships -amarr is uhh... well i never pay attention to them, i'm sure they will make due with whatever they get as always hey, did anyone hear the drake is an overpriced ferox? I dont think anyone on the forums has said that yet you can cut the sarcasm w/ a knife i bet :P i just finished BC lvl 5 ! hurricane here i come. look out drake pilots (well those of you that are still going to be able to fly a ship that actually has drawbacks and isn't overpowered.) Aye Hank you will have fun attacking mission runners in the Drake in Low Sec... because you won't find any in PVP with one of its arms tied behind its back and 1 testicle chewed off by a hack saw. Enjoy! ; P "Arte et Marte"
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.22 01:06:00 - [997] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Kalhystia I perfectly agree, don¦t touch Myrmidon turrets. It is like saying that Dominix is overpowered because of its 6 turrets slots. It is its capability to fit ECM+NOS which turns it into a freak, not its 6 turrets slots it can¦t even fit properly with its low powergrid. You misunderstand. I meant its totally non-sensical to boost its drone bay and NOT remove turrets. I think they should give it 250m3+ and drop 2-3 turrets and 1-200MW of grid. Wooops. Sorry being sick and tired doesn¦t help to understand foreign language. In that case, I will repeat what I already said: Myrmidon is perfectly fine as it is, it is a very versatile vessel, which can be fit for alot of roles. Yes, 125m3 dronebay isn¦t that large, but I don¦t want it to be turned into a full fledged and boring droneboat. It can actually act as a blastership, dampening platform with gang support abilities while keeping good drone capabilities. I don¦t think a BC should be able to fit 5 heavy drone with replacement waves, as it is what the Dominix is currently doing. Want DPS? Ok load heavy drones, but assume the risk of losing them. Want security? Grab mediums, do less DPS but you are sure to have replacement wave. Having to wonder what you will fit because there are drawback(s) to each is what I call balance. 2 waves of 5 heavy drones isn¦t what I call balance for a battelcruiser. The whine about it is large enough at the moment, thanks Ishtar and Eos are t2, so no problem with them being able to have replacement waves for heavies. Moreover, if you just remove turrets, you will only get a cookie IWIN ship with standard boring NOS setup. No thanks, I like the versatility of this ship.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.11.22 01:42:00 - [998] Its does about 20% more damage than the 2nd most damaggin BC (brutix) when both have no dmg mods, and a little less % (but still way more) when both have the same damage mods, AND its got 1 more mid than all gunship BCs AND it has a tank bonus where all the other 6-low BCs dont. It needs guns taken off. Simple as that. ---------------- Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.22 02:02:00 - [999] Originally by: keepiru Its does about 20% more damage than the 2nd most damaggin BC (brutix) when both have no dmg mods, and a little less % (but still way more) when both have the same damage mods, AND its got 1 more mid than all gunship BCs AND it has a tank bonus where all the other 6-low BCs dont. It needs guns taken off. Simple as that. Does that damage includes heavy or medium drones?
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.22 03:09:00 - [1000] Myr is "supposed" to be a dedicated drone carrier, its the ONLY dedicated drone carrier in the entire game (discounting carriers) so it realy should have a monster drone bay imho, its like saying lets make a dedicated missile ship, but only give it 3 launchers. So now it can field 5 heavys, thats great, but what about replacements? it can already field 5 heavys, so where is the imbalance to allow it replacements/a choice of drones? What would be realy cool imo would be to make it a dedicated drone boat, which its supposed to be, capable of deploying different types of drones depending on the situation it finds itself in. In a gang and lots of frigs, drop webbing drones, some heavy hitters drop some ECM drones, need extra damage drop some heavys, longer ranged engagement drop some sentrys. Make it a swizz army knife capable of fielding lots of different drone types. In other words, give it a decent drone bay heh. CEO - Art of War

Angelic Resolution The Arcanum	Posted - 2006.11.22 04:11:00 - [1001] Am playing with the drake now: Seventh missile launcher would make it 100% kick arse.Grid if fine for 6 launchers, can fit everything perfectly with nice skills. Am thinking it'll make a great PvP boat espicially with assault missiles against AF's. Although as a solo boat it might be extremely limited, unless you tank the lows and really lay on the scrambalage :D Seventh launcher would be excellent, really make it stand apart from all the other ships. On another note: A caldari battleship or even minmattar battleship with almost the same design would rock. Raven looks like an ugly toaster just as the osprey does. :D
Roxanna Kell BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.11.22 04:30:00 - [1002] PLEASE remove the tank of the Drake, give it 4 mid slots, 6 lows, 6 launchers with ROF bonus. Reduce HP shield if needs be, but for god sake give us what you promised, a SHIP more for gank than tank. Iam sick of all the tanking ships the caladari has, whats the point sitting there taking hits. Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt
Protunia Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.22 07:44:00 - [1003] Originally by: keepiru Its does about 20% more damage than the 2nd most damaggin BC (brutix) when both have no dmg mods, and a little less % (but still way more) when both have the same damage mods, AND its got 1 more mid than all gunship BCs AND it has a tank bonus where all the other 6-low BCs dont. It needs guns taken off. Simple as that. You take off guns you have to add 125 m3 per ;) My Character Stats
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.22 08:07:00 - [1004] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 22/11/2006 08:15:08 For tux: Before to make even more considerations, i will teel u that i know that (we) players are never happy, everytime whine for something and usually never tnx you enough for all the work u are doing. Much words are spent criticing u but very few are spent greeting u for your work. So before to read below i pleese u too keep in mind that i appreciate your work. ok? :) Now the point: The myrmidon ( yeah, again, sorry) first release was: hi: 8 (5 turrets) med: 5 low: 5 drone bay: 100m3 it was horrible we all know. :) second release was: hi: 6 (6 turrets) med: 5 low: 6 drone bay: 100m3 still horrible.. not a drone bay at all. last release was: hi: 6 (6 turrets) med: 5 low: 6 drone bay: 125m3 good dps improvement but u missed the point. the myrmydon need a large drone bay. all our post wast not a "we wast 5 heavy" whine. the poit is that drones are easilly destroyed ad myrmidon need a replacement, it need at least even more 50m3 ( total 175 m3 drone bay). from the actual situation it will not be stronger but will have costant dpc ( replace drones lost). If u fear that 5 heavy are too much and count that who use 5 heavy myst be aware that have no replacement ( in order to incentivate mediums). i please u to remove 1-2 turrets. I BEG u to make the myrmidon a good new ship.. it's amost there. I dont care to have a uber ship, but please make it a drone ship as every drone user dreamed. reduce turret hard point as many u like. no problem, but hive him 175M3. tnx for your patience.
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.22 09:08:00 - [1005] Originally by: Kalhystia Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon has 125m3 drone bay now, too bad the model is now incredibly broken so it cant be tested. I know this sounds ungrateful, but the point people've been trying to make about the Myrmidon is that it lack replacements. All they've done now is add a bit of DPS to the ship - DPS it needed, but the MAIN problem remains. And you know what? It's not going to be tweaked after this. It'll just present Myrmidons a logistic nightmare forever, because the difference between one flight of drones with replacements and one flight of drones without doesn't show up on paper (everyone just assumes that a drone ship magically reloads drones just like turrets or missiles reload ammo from cargo) The Myrmidon STILL needs larger drone bay. Oh, and does it still have 6 turrets? It doesn't need that many turrets. In fact, sacrifice one or a couple for (at least) a doubled drone bay is a needed sacrifice. I think that Myrmidon is perfectly fine as it is. Sure, it is not the best droneboat, but is has great versatility. Want to turn it into a dampener/gang boat? No problem. Want to turn it into a weird mix or blaster/droneboat? No problem, fit blasters and be happy. Want to turn into a NOS droneboay? Sure, go for it, medium drones II are far enough if you want replacements. If you want to use heavies with replacement waves, go for Dominix, not Myrmidon. That is the tradeoff for using heavy drones in a BC IMO. Without to say you can use gang module on that baby. I like the 6 turrets on it and not only for graphic issue. I like being able to fit weird but effective setups with plates and 6 light blasters. So no, no need to remove turrets, the ship is freaking useful and versatile as it is now. Completely agree, i tried the myr and was impressed, but price/speed will make it effectively useless for solo/<5 man pvp. I think you're thinking too inside the box... no gun bonus so maybe use AC/arty to save the tiny amount of cap and get better damage types out of it? The only thing holding it back now is the price tag, very few of these will be used outside of mission running me thinks.... myr 35mil( ? ) domi 60 mil.... is that even a choice? as a ship, its great, but if its pricy its pointless.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.22 10:20:00 - [1006] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum good dps improvement but u missed the point. The myrmydon need a large drone bay, large enough to not care drone losses. All our post wast not a "we want 5 heavy whine". The point is that drones are easilly destroyed ad myrmidon need a replacement, a true replacement, it need at least even more 50m3 ( total 175 m3 drone bay). I don't agree with the recent Myrmidon change, for those reasons: - It now does a bit too much DPS with 5 heavy drones for a ship that still has a defensive bonus. 6 T2 Electrons/Ions + 5 T2 med drones with 50% drone damage is already nothing to sneeze at. It's way above the new Drake, for example... - Almost everyone whine about needing spares. They invariably fail to mention, however, just how much HP an heavy drone can have. With skills and the ship bonus, an ogre II can easily top 1000 armor HP. Add the shield and structure to that, and you got something that won't just go pop after 2 smartbomb activations, as some whiners would like you to believe. Not to mention that Tux might later give a general 50% HP to drones as well, to keep up with the ship HP increase. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.22 10:30:00 - [1007] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Heelay Ashrum good dps improvement but u missed the point. The myrmydon need a large drone bay, large enough to not care drone losses. All our post wast not a "we want 5 heavy whine". The point is that drones are easilly destroyed ad myrmidon need a replacement, a true replacement, it need at least even more 50m3 ( total 175 m3 drone bay). I don't agree with the recent Myrmidon change, for those reasons: - It now does a bit too much DPS with 5 heavy drones for a ship that still has a defensive bonus. 6 T2 Electrons/Ions + 5 T2 med drones with 50% drone damage is already nothing to sneeze at. It's way above the new Drake, for example... - Almost everyone whine about needing spares. They invariably fail to mention, however, just how much HP an heavy drone can have. With skills and the ship bonus, an ogre II can easily top 1000 armor HP. Add the shield and structure to that, and you got something that won't just go pop after 2 smartbomb activations, as some whiners would like you to believe. Not to mention that Tux might later give a general 50% HP to drones as well, to keep up with the ship HP increase. If u read with attenction my post i wrote that i'm disposable to have less turrets. Myr as it is now it can already use 5 ogres... if u increment still drone bay, DPS will not change. waht i'm asking is to have LESSER DPS ( because lesser turrets) but CONSTANT DPS ( spare drones ). About the drone hull, ok they will have 50% bonus with kali, but also ships. in conclusion drone survivagly are identical as it is now. I have drone skill maxed, and trust me.. they die, easy and fast. U have just to think what shot if u face a drone boat. My primary idea it's a diffirentiation for gallente BC's.More myr is different to brutix the better is. Brutix it's a turret ship, make a mys a full brone ship ( he have not to worry about drone losses). If myrmidon it's overpowered ( imho no, but that's not the point) remove as many turrets are needed to ballance it.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 10:37:00 - [1008] I would: - Give Hurricane back the 7:th turret or give it 50 m3 drone bay. - Give Drake back the 7:th launcher, but move a medium slot to a low slot. Its tank is just silly. Then things are fine, now that myrmidon have been buffed to the extreme, and harbinger got buffed with a damage bonus. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.22 10:49:00 - [1009] I have to say the Myrm seems much better now. Drake could still use some work... Zarch AlDain
Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 11:10:00 - [1010] Originally by: Jim McGregor I would: - Give Hurricane back the 7:th turret or give it 50 m3 drone bay. - Give Drake back the 7:th launcher, but move a medium slot to a low slot. Its tank is just silly. Then things are fine, now that myrmidon have been buffed to the extreme, and harbinger got buffed with a damage bonus. The tank on the Drake is silly indeed, but those changes wouldnt fix the ship. Removing the resistance bonus althogether and give back the rof and launcher would. The resistance bonus was what made it overpowered, it was both tank and gank... But it was a mistake keeping the tank and removing the gank, let us have our gank ship back! remove the resistance bonus! -JM

Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.11.22 11:12:00 - [1011] Drake could sure need a 7th launcher slot... Moving a medslot will ruin the concept of the Drake - the problem is people being able to fit 3 Large Shield Extenders, a full rack of launchers without having to fit RCU's and PDS in lowslots (a good passive tank need lots of shield power relays in lowslots) Currently (with AWU 4) I can fit 6 HAM IIs and 3 LSE II (with Shield Upgrade 4) but I have to use at least 2 PDS or 1 RCU while leaving 2 empty high slots. Give Drake 7 launchers with the same amount of powergrid and I think it's ok...
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.22 11:14:00 - [1012] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 22/11/2006 11:16:37 Imho ( as i wrote in previus page) myrmidon still need room for backup drones expecially now that this does not mean more DPS. On the other hands the drake with 6 launchers it seems to me silly.dunno what must be done ( i'm not a missile user) but somethings it's wrong as it is now. About the hurricane ( i'm not an expert minnie ship user ), but the option proposec by jim ( 50m3 drone bay ) seems interesting .. after all minmatars are the second race that use drones ( typhon anyone?)
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.22 11:17:00 - [1013] Originally by: Jim McGregor - Give Hurricane back the 7:th turret or give it 50 m3 drone bay. in that case feel free to add an 8th turret to the harbinger so it is once more balanced with the hurricane. Originally by: Jim McGregor Then things are fine, now that myrmidon have been buffed to the extreme, and harbinger got buffed with a damage bonus. oh the harbinger got buffed? i must have missed that. last i checked it got its rof bonus changed to damage and is doing less dps now.
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.11.22 11:23:00 - [1014] Sad about the Drake.. bewhew They could have saved us all alot of crying if they had just added another Launcher point to our "Turret" BC and left Caldari with one BC. But with that said the Ferox need a tweek to make it different from its newer twin the Drake. What a mess.. told we are gona get somthing new and we get the exact same ship with an extra launcher ...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 12:08:00 - [1015] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne oh the harbinger got buffed? i must have missed that. last i checked it got its rof bonus changed to damage and is doing less dps now. What, dps is equal to buff all of a sudden? Then I guess minmatar ships need loads of buffs, wouldnt you agree? Your ship lasts longer and have more cap to tank now. Its a improvement, therefore a buff. You may not agree, fine. Thats how I see it anyway. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.22 12:09:00 - [1016] lets wait for them and try in tranquility then we'll see if drake sux or myr overpowered(!)or hurricane sux there will be nerfs and boosts i think.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.22 12:14:00 - [1017] Originally by: Jim McGregor and harbinger got buffed with a damage bonus. tell me what is this buff your talking about there? Originally by: Jim McGregor Your ship lasts longer and have more cap to tank now. Its a improvement, therefore a buff. You may not agree, fine. Thats how I see it anyway. ALL ships last longer and have more cap now. There has been no specific buff to the harbinger that i'm aware off. if you have found one feel free to share.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 12:28:00 - [1018] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 12:29:01 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Jim McGregor and harbinger got buffed with a damage bonus. tell me what is this buff your talking about there? Originally by: Jim McGregor Your ship lasts longer and have more cap to tank now. Its a improvement, therefore a buff. You may not agree, fine. Thats how I see it anyway. ALL ships last longer and have more cap now. There has been no specific buff to the harbinger that i'm aware off. if you have found one feel free to share. 1) Switching rof to dmg. 2) The bonus change buffs the harbinger to last longer in battle. Its a much better bonus than rof because it decreases the cap use of the ship. Therefore I see it as a improvement (buff). --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sebastian Valance Gallente Freelancers Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.22 12:53:00 - [1019] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon has 125m3 drone bay now, too bad the model is now incredibly broken so it cant be tested. I know this sounds ungrateful, but the point people've been trying to make about the Myrmidon is that it lack replacements. All they've done now is add a bit of DPS to the ship - DPS it needed, but the MAIN problem remains. And you know what? It's not going to be tweaked after this. It'll just present Myrmidons a logistic nightmare forever, because the difference between one flight of drones with replacements and one flight of drones without doesn't show up on paper (everyone just assumes that a drone ship magically reloads drones just like turrets or missiles reload ammo from cargo) The Myrmidon STILL needs larger drone bay. Oh, and does it still have 6 turrets? It doesn't need that many turrets. In fact, sacrifice one or a couple for (at least) a doubled drone bay is a needed sacrifice. Agreed. The logistics of getting drones replaced now that Drones will be more like Ammo than like tiny ships is going to be a problem. I have been toying with an idea for months now of an Item that possibly could solve this problem. In the interests of this discussion, please check the Game Development section of the Forums for a post titled "Logictical Satellite Proposal". Please read the idea I have presented there and comment on any changes that would make it better and balanced at the same time. It is a serious proposal for a new item that I believe could solve not only the Drone Logistics issue we will face with Revelations, but also a way of addressing CCP's desire to do away with how Jetcans are currently being utilized. (Forum Mods, I am not trying to cross-post, but if by me pointing readers to the other forum is considered as such, then please delete this post under the Revelations development thread. kthxbye) ______________________________________________ Sabastian Valance
Swamp Ziro EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.22 13:22:00 - [1020] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Jim McGregor - Give Hurricane back the 7:th turret or give it 50 m3 drone bay. in that case feel free to add an 8th turret to the harbinger so it is once more balanced with the hurricane. No. Just give Hurricane the 7th turret back, amarr would whine if harbringer had a doomsday weapon (OMG 13.7 DPS TUX!!11)

Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.22 13:25:00 - [1021] Originally by: Jim McGregor 1) Switching rof to dmg. 2) The bonus change buffs the harbinger to last longer in battle. Its a much better bonus than rof because it decreases the cap use of the ship. Therefore I see it as a improvement (buff). it takes a bit of damage and gives a bit of tankability. thats a balanced change not a buff. not that the harbinger really needed this as it already has the laser cap use reduction bonus and was supposed to be a gank-ship. right now the harbinger seems well balanced with the hurricane. of course they could have taken the other road and improved the harbinger instead (giving it its 8th turret for example) but this way works as well.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 13:29:00 - [1022] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne right now the harbinger seems well balanced with the hurricane. of course they could have taken the other road and improved the harbinger instead (giving it its 8th turret for example) but this way works as well. Thay may be your opinion, but I really dont agree. What we currently have is a ship with such extreme dps that it totally nullifies the minmatar racial armor resistance against the amarr damage types. Here is MY opinion, which YOU wont agree with: All battlecruisers except the Myrmidon was pretty balanced when they showed up. Then ccp boosted the Myrmidon beyond what the others could achieve, and kept the nerfs to Drake and Hurricane. So now they are sub-par to the rest with only 6 days to go for TQ deployment. Im not happy. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 13:31:00 - [1023] Jim, it also causes the ENEMY to last longer in combat, which can not be considered a buff. It's a change to improve it's capacitor at the expense of some damage. Not a buff, not a nerf. It's a change. So far, from what I can tell, the best way to describe a frail consensus of the players in this thread is: * Harbringer - Few complaints, possibly another turret (?) * Drake - Give back the launcher, change the tanking bonus. * Myrmidon - Double the drone bay or more, remove two turrets. * Hurricane - Tricky, really. I can't tell. Drake: The tanking bonus was what made it, and what makes it, overpowered in the first place - not the launchers. It's fat and slow, and it is the sluggishness and the ability to take damage that takes away any disadvantages it might've had, and a shield resistance bonus does precisely that and more. 10% missile velocity bonus per level, +5 flashy lights per level, or what ever. The important thing is that this ship must not cater to tanking, specifically passive tanking. Myrmidon: The damage graphs suggest it's good now, in practice it's not. It's really, really bad. The mere fact that it can now measure itself against the other ships in a positive light with regards to DPS is actually really bad for the ship. It's good on paper, but poor in practice, and the paper will ensure that this remains. Double or tripple drone bay, remove two turrets. It's almost a good tanking ship, so having the same DPS as the other ganky BCs isn't necessary. What it needs is replacement drones. It isn't completely analogous, but a DRONE ship without replacement drones can be considered a hybrid, projectile or missile ship with no ammo in cargo bay - it will most likely have it's main weapon depleted after the first or second fight. The Myrmidon needs heavy drone damage. It can not fight with medium drones, the damage output would be far too low. The drone bay does not allow for extended (more than one fight) combat in the Myrmidon. It's that simple. - EVE is sick.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 13:39:00 - [1024] Originally by: Ithildin So far, from what I can tell, the best way to describe a frail consensus of the players in this thread is: * Harbringer - Few complaints, possibly another turret (?) * Drake - Give back the launcher, change the tanking bonus. * Myrmidon - Double the drone bay or more, remove two turrets. * Hurricane - Tricky, really. I can't tell. Harbinger - Keep as it is. Drake - Give back the launcher, remove the tanking bonus Myrmidon - Double the drone bay to 250 m3, remove 3 turrets. Hurricane - Give back its 7:th turret or give it at least 50 m3 of drones! --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 13:44:00 - [1025] Three turrets? I think it was shown previously that the Myrmidon would be competative, just short of equal, with 5 turrets and large drone bay compared to the other ships when they all were in gank-mode. With 4 turrets it'd be slightly behind, which would be fair since you can't really go into gank mode with drones. With 3 turrets, I rather think it'd go down to be balanced with the Hurricane - the way the Hurricane is RIGHT NOW. Care to graph me on that? - EVE is sick.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.22 14:02:00 - [1026] Originally by: Ithildin Three turrets? I think it was shown previously that the Myrmidon would be competative, just short of equal, with 5 turrets and large drone bay compared to the other ships when they all were in gank-mode. With 4 turrets it'd be slightly behind, which would be fair since you can't really go into gank mode with drones. With 3 turrets, I rather think it'd go down to be balanced with the Hurricane - the way the Hurricane is RIGHT NOW. Care to graph me on that? I havent read all the 35 pages actually... today is my first day being in this thread for a long while. I just got so annoyed by how they made the Hurricane go from good to bad, and Myrmidon from bad to good, because its so typical of ccp game balancing decisions. If removing 2 turrets is enough, then fine. But even after Kali, you will see everybody recommending gallente to new players in the game, and I cant blame them. Its strange, because I know Tux and the other balancing people actually put a lot of work into trying to balance the game. Tux is apparently a very, very ambitious and hard working guy, constantly coming up with ideas and suggestions to make things better. So my only conclusion is that Im personally so influenced by my own race that I dont see the balance in the Myrmidon. It could very well be, I dont know. Guess I will have to trust ccp in the end. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.22 14:17:00 - [1027] Originally by: Ithildin Three turrets? I think it was shown previously that the Myrmidon would be competative, just short of equal, with 5 turrets and large drone bay compared to the other ships when they all were in gank-mode. With 4 turrets it'd be slightly behind, which would be fair since you can't really go into gank mode with drones. With 3 turrets, I rather think it'd go down to be balanced with the Hurricane - the way the Hurricane is RIGHT NOW. Care to graph me on that? hm.. 3 turrets seems realy too much considering that increase drone bay now means just have a constant dps, but dont raise it. in any case i'm all for huge drone bay and reduce tuttets needed for ballance. i'm not good for graph .. anyione willing to make some?
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.22 14:33:00 - [1028] 50m3 drone space for the Hurricane? Heck no! The point is we want a ship that is a single weapon platform. Minmatar already have enough split weapons almost every ship, last thing needed is another ship to use Projectile, missile, and Drones on. Just put back the 7th turret and all is happy. I understand the PG nerf and it's fine but the turret nope. All that's going to happen is it's going to get 2 missiles or 2 nos. As far as I'm concerned give back the 7th, and take away all launcher slots, don't need em, just want a one weapon platform ship.
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.11.22 15:05:00 - [1029] i dont fly minmatar much but I agree it should be a single weapon platform, 7 turrets.
Orrin Danestarr	Posted - 2006.11.22 15:38:00 - [1030] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Ithildin So far, from what I can tell, the best way to describe a frail consensus of the players in this thread is: * Harbringer - Few complaints, possibly another turret (?) * Drake - Give back the launcher, change the tanking bonus. * Myrmidon - Double the drone bay or more, remove two turrets. * Hurricane - Tricky, really. I can't tell. Harbinger - Keep as it is. Drake - Give back the launcher, remove the tanking bonus Myrmidon - Double the drone bay to 250 m3, remove 3 turrets. Hurricane - Give back its 7:th turret or give it at least 50 m3 of drones! Harbringer.... made my suggestions for it Drake.... i completley agree with your assessment myridon... is fine, could use another 25m3 for back ups tho. Hurricane.... just 7 turrets please... the hell with the launcher point, 7 turrets, no launcher, 8 highs, giving it a utility high. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME

Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 15:47:00 - [1031] Edited by: Jaedar Metron on 22/11/2006 15:48:42 Originally by: Orrin Danestarr Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Ithildin So far, from what I can tell, the best way to describe a frail consensus of the players in this thread is: * Harbringer - Few complaints, possibly another turret (?) * Drake - Give back the launcher, change the tanking bonus. * Myrmidon - Double the drone bay or more, remove two turrets. * Hurricane - Tricky, really. I can't tell. Harbinger - Keep as it is. Drake - Give back the launcher, remove the tanking bonus Myrmidon - Double the drone bay to 250 m3, remove 3 turrets. Hurricane - Give back its 7:th turret or give it at least 50 m3 of drones! Harbringer.... made my suggestions for it Drake.... i completley agree with your assessment myridon... is fine, could use another 25m3 for back ups tho. Hurricane.... just 7 turrets please... the hell with the launcher point, 7 turrets, no launcher, 8 highs, giving it a utility high. Dont forget that even if the Drake gets the 7th launcher back, without the RoF bonus (IE if it keeps the Kinetic dmg bonus) The ship will still be bad in pvp (as most people and their dogs tank kinetic...) So remember that it needs the RoF bonus back as well to utilize the ship bonuses in PvP * Fix the Drake! -Remove the resistance bonus -Give back the 7th launcher -Give back the RoF bonus We need the PvP ship we were supposed to get, we dont want another mission ***!
Kaden Seer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.22 17:49:00 - [1032] naw man, myrmie didn't get buffed to the extreme, it's just as it should be. on the other hand, hurricane needs its firepower back and the drake needs some modding back to normal, lose the kinetic man, that's just a waste
Father Weebles Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.11.22 18:08:00 - [1033] Originally by: Jim McGregor Myrmidon - Double the drone bay to 250 m3, remove 3 turrets. that would be better than 125 bay and 6 turrets fo show "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.11.22 18:54:00 - [1034] Harbinger - Seems Good Drake - Remove the Resist Bonus (it's an Insult), give it back the ROF bonus and maybe give it the 7th launcher back. (Tank was the problem from the get go, not Gank.) Myrmidon - Increase the size of the drone bay, remove 2 turrets. (Not having extra drons makes this ship broken). Hurricane - Give back its 7th turret. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.11.22 18:56:00 - [1035] Also, Fix the Ferox, give to 2 more Turret Hardpoints. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.22 20:48:00 - [1036] Harbinger: Seems okay? Hurricane: Give back the 7th Turret Myrmidon: 200m3 drone bay (5/5/5) Remove 1 turret, Possibly remove rep bonus/Replace with Hybrid damage? Drake: Give back ROF bonus, remove shield res bonus ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.11.22 21:48:00 - [1037] I've been thinking about the BCs in their current state and in my opinion they could do with the following changes: Harbinger: no changes. This ship looks to be spot on. Hurricane: for once give the Minnies a single weapon platform. Give it another turret instead of a launcher. Myrmidon: increase drone bay to 250m3. No change in DPS but at least it will have some replacements so it will be an option in PvP. Drake: Replace the KIN damage bonus with the old ROF bonus. No increase to the number of launchers. Slash the shield tank resist in half to reduce the tank. The Amarr should still be happy, the Minnies will have their single weapon platform, the Myrmidon will be a true drone boat between the Vexor and the Domi, and the Drake will be more gank but less tank (as promised?). I don't presume to know everything, but for me, with these changes, the BC class will be balanced. The BS on the other hand -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.11.22 22:17:00 - [1038] Edited by: Chronojam on 22/11/2006 22:24:52 Originally by: Lisian Tonoko Would be nice to see the return of the 'guardian vexor' in the form of Myrmidon. Instead of making it the same in setup like the Ishkur, Ishtar, Vexor and Dominix with small waves of tough drones, going the mini carrier road and swarms of medium drones with maybe a few heavy amidst. Total of 10 or more drones in simultanious flight? This would be nice as it could provide coverage against multiple ships in small scale engagements. Concentrated on fellow BC, spread out when facing small ships. A bit like how the gallente Dreadnaught differs from its fellow shiplings^^. If the popular consencus is not giving it 5 heavies (by increasing dronebay to allow the numbers), then I dont see any other way for it to remain a 'Droneship' and be worse off then the others in its field, except with increase of numbers. The 'TIE Fighter' approach. Swarm with susperior engines and targetting systems and numbers, sacrificing durability and overal power. This seems to have been suggested before. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=417269&page=32#946 Check this post =P I don't know why people are flipping out over 5 heavy drones anyways; but yeah, a ship similar to the Guardian-Vexor or more like a mini-carrier is what I was hoping for. A "genre breaker" ship that actually does its role instead of sticking to the expected 10%-this-or-that formulae the others all use; more like the Moros and its 50% bonus. Something DIFFERENT, something GOOD. Sidenote: still no T2 drones in Everyshore, and Hammerhead 2 cost 3 mill apiece and pop way fast; I can only see that getting worse, not better, now that every other ship in the game has +50% hp. Drones don't just magically reload, drones aren't sold at every station, not everybody's brother has a drone BPO, and we can't even shift drones from our cargo area into our drone bay either.
Griever Takkow	Posted - 2006.11.23 00:32:00 - [1039] Drake : Remove resist bonus, Give back 7th launcher, Give back RoF. OKAY And what do you want for the second bonus. It's quite clear you dont want a tank bonus, so presumably you want flight time or speed, or RoF AND Kinetic damage? The fact is, with 7 launchers and an RoF bonus the Drakes DPS is already dangerously high, and its tank is dangerously good even without a resist bouns. And you still have a bonus in hand. Face it, with that many mids and that amount of shields the Drake simply cannot fail to be an awesome shield tanker, resist bonus or not. You wanna make it a gank ship, drop a mid, slash its shields, nerf its shield recharge and THEN you can have 7 launchers and 2 missile boni. Untill then , forget it.
Lisian Tonoko	Posted - 2006.11.23 00:40:00 - [1040] Dev's , for the sake of testing. Can we have a test build wich favours the myrm in multiple drone usage?

Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:21:00 - [1041] Originally by: Lisian Tonoko Dev's , for the sake of testing. Can we have a test build wich favours the myrm in multiple drone usage? You ever get the feeling that devs hate drones and drone users passionately? sometimes it seems so... =/ I think this idea is great, with the cluster upgrades (not that lag has changed at all yet) perhaps the server can now handle 10-15 drones a ship? drones 5 = 5 drones perhaps BC 5 = another 5 and drone int 5 = another 5 Woot! 10 mediums and 5 lights in space! praise the lord and pray they dont have a smart bomb! =D The Myr is an awesome ship no matter what people ***** about, its just too expensive at present.. but give gallente a drone ship (you know... that racial thing we do...) and it would be worth the price tag... i really wanna see 15 in flight
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:27:00 - [1042] Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 23/11/2006 01:28:49 Originally by: Griever Takkow Drake : Remove resist bonus, Give back 7th launcher, Give back RoF. OKAY And what do you want for the second bonus. It's quite clear you dont want a tank bonus, so presumably you want flight time or speed, or RoF AND Kinetic damage? The fact is, with 7 launchers and an RoF bonus the Drakes DPS is already dangerously high, and its tank is dangerously good even without a resist bouns. And you still have a bonus in hand. Face it, with that many mids and that amount of shields the Drake simply cannot fail to be an awesome shield tanker, resist bonus or not. You wanna make it a gank ship, drop a mid, slash its shields, nerf its shield recharge and THEN you can have 7 launchers and 2 missile boni. Untill then , forget it. I agree, nerfed drake-a-** is not worth flying, and few will. The thing i dont like about unerfed drake is hams... kill them off and just put heavys on a drake and its not that bad at all.... provided it gets a small tank nerf =) The problem with hams as ive seen is uber damage/rof up close (my blasters dont go 9km... do yours?) and then pilots simply reloading weaker long range ammo when you move out of range (and suddenly it hits out to 50km or so.. which i consider long range.. its a BC after all... And that is a neat trick.. i really wish my blasters could hit at 50km easilly...) The other issues are those that plague all missle balance, the fact that it can use all damage types with no form of damage loss... that and not missing.. ever ever ever ever until forever those missles will hit you and hurt you... Unless you're outrunning the blast you're getting raped by it. I dont mind a gankadrake just nerf the ** out of its tank.. take the ECM fitted blackbird as an exaple if need be =P it fills its role well... then explodes.
Sarpadeon Freedom Guard Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:32:00 - [1043] Originally by: Griever Takkow Drake : Remove resist bonus, Give back 7th launcher, Give back RoF. OKAY And what do you want for the second bonus. It's quite clear you dont want a tank bonus, so presumably you want flight time or speed, or RoF AND Kinetic damage? The fact is, with 7 launchers and an RoF bonus the Drakes DPS is already dangerously high, and its tank is dangerously good even without a resist bouns. And you still have a bonus in hand. Face it, with that many mids and that amount of shields the Drake simply cannot fail to be an awesome shield tanker, resist bonus or not. You wanna make it a gank ship, drop a mid, slash its shields, nerf its shield recharge and THEN you can have 7 launchers and 2 missile boni. Untill then , forget it. A flaw in your logic is that flight speed or time changes its DPS when already in range. You realize how much a hurricane with 6 ACs and 2 assault launchers does? or a myrm with 5 heavies and 6 blasters in high? (slightly suicidal with current drone bay, but they can always field 4 heavies + 1 light and have 4 lights left in their drone bay) The passive resist bonus is what puts it over the edge, without that it would have to fit at least 1 more invul field instead of a shield extender to get near the tank it can fit now. Remember for every mid slot fit for PVP(aka scram, EWAR, etc) the tank on the drake goes down by large chunks Your only argument currently against giving the drake a flight time or missile velocity speed is the t2 missiles(aka javelins) RIDICULOUS(read:overpowered) range. Drake should be IMO: - 7 launcher points - 5% ROF per level - 5% missile flight time OR velocity for level(has 0 effect on DPS when in range, just lets the missiles hit a little further out, t1 HAMs have horrid range) -Javelin HAMs need re balancing disclaimer: these views are my personal views, they dont represent my corps, or my alliances views on the subject.
cy4n1d3	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:39:00 - [1044] Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane I've been thinking about the BCs in their current state and in my opinion they could do with the following changes: Harbinger: no changes. This ship looks to be spot on. Hurricane: for once give the Minnies a single weapon platform. Give it another turret instead of a launcher. Myrmidon: increase drone bay to 250m3. No change in DPS but at least it will have some replacements so it will be an option in PvP. Drake: Replace the KIN damage bonus with the old ROF bonus. No increase to the number of launchers. Slash the shield tank resist in half to reduce the tank. The Amarr should still be happy, the Minnies will have their single weapon platform, the Myrmidon will be a true drone boat between the Vexor and the Domi, and the Drake will be more gank but less tank (as promised?). I don't presume to know everything, but for me, with these changes, the BC class will be balanced. The BS on the other hand YES PLEASE.
cy4n1d3	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:56:00 - [1045] Originally by: Amy Wang Give the Myrmidon a 150 or 175 bay and 4 turret slots as tradeoff, six turrets is too much especially with the recent nerfs to other bcs. God, I don't care. Give the Myrmidon 5 billion drone space. Just give the Hurricane back its 7th turret.
Frater Perdurabo The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria	Posted - 2006.11.23 03:24:00 - [1046] Well, i dont think its too bad to be honest, lots of people whining about the new bc's but i think they are pretty fairly balanced. I DONT think the drake should go back to the previous config as suggested by the poster 2 above, it was to good end of story, but yeah, put the rof bonus back on, and possibly remove the res bonus for a velocity or flight time bonus. Myrm seems fine now, sure if you put 5 hvy drones in your dps is uber, but i think anybody with half a braincell will kill your drones pretty quick. Harbinger i have no probs with at all Hurricane, well i thought it seemed ok even with only 6 turrets. (Although it will probably be the worst one if the drake gets the slight boost) But i really like the suggestion of giving it 7 turrets and no missile slots, just an 8th utility slot. Can dream i spose... ----------------------------------- Please note that my response to this thread is probably a result of boredom, and its very likely that i dont care, but am posting in an attempt to wind someone up
cy4n1d3	Posted - 2006.11.23 07:47:00 - [1047] Originally by: Frater Perdurabo Well, i dont think its too bad to be honest, lots of people whining about the new bc's but i think they are pretty fairly balanced. I DONT think the drake should go back to the previous config as suggested by the poster 2 above, it was to good end of story, but yeah, put the rof bonus back on, and possibly remove the res bonus for a velocity or flight time bonus. Myrm seems fine now, sure if you put 5 hvy drones in your dps is uber, but i think anybody with half a braincell will kill your drones pretty quick. Harbinger i have no probs with at all Hurricane, well i thought it seemed ok even with only 6 turrets. (Although it will probably be the worst one if the drake gets the slight boost) But i really like the suggestion of giving it 7 turrets and no missile slots, just an 8th utility slot. Can dream i spose... The Hurricane still won't even be that good 1v1 with only 4 mids.
Kaden Seer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.23 07:57:00 - [1048] Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane I've been thinking about the BCs in their current state and in my opinion they could do with the following changes: Harbinger: no changes. This ship looks to be spot on. Hurricane: for once give the Minnies a single weapon platform. Give it another turret instead of a launcher. Myrmidon: increase drone bay to 250m3. No change in DPS but at least it will have some replacements so it will be an option in PvP. Drake: Replace the KIN damage bonus with the old ROF bonus. No increase to the number of launchers. Slash the shield tank resist in half to reduce the tank. The Amarr should still be happy, the Minnies will have their single weapon platform, the Myrmidon will be a true drone boat between the Vexor and the Domi, and the Drake will be more gank but less tank (as promised?). I don't presume to know everything, but for me, with these changes, the BC class will be balanced. The BS on the other hand AGREED!
TalanR Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 10:33:00 - [1049] The drake needs to be a BIG caracal HI: 7 slot 7 launcher points MED: 4 slots LOW: 6 slots ROF bonus velocity or flight time bonus Only caldari railboats have a resist bonus. check Moa, Eagle, Ferox, Rokh. The Drake is a missle boat Also plz nerf javlin HAM. They are to powerfull
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.23 11:20:00 - [1050] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=428088&page=3#90 Also, Javelin HAMs deserve a flatout nerf, no question.

Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 14:40:00 - [1051] Originally by: TalanR Edited by: TalanR on 23/11/2006 14:16:09 The drake needs to be a BIG caracal HI: 7 slot 7 launcher points MED: 4 slots LOW: 6 slots ROF bonus velocity or flight time bonus the removed resistance bonus and the 2 less med slots makes tanking harder Only caldari railboats have a resist bonus. check Moa, Eagle, Ferox, Rokh. The Drake is a missle boat Also plz nerf javlin HAM. They are to powerfull why remove one high slot? all the other tier2 bc's gets 8 slots (Ithink, please correct me if wrong :D) and that med/low slot is messed up, what coul possible hinder people from ARMOR tanking their Drake if that goes through? remember, the Drake is a shield tanker, and we use med slots for both shield and ewar :) The rest looks good * Fix the Drake! -Remove the resistance bonus -Give back the 7th launcher -Give back the RoF bonus We need the PvP ship we were supposed to get, we dont want another mission ***!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.11.23 14:54:00 - [1052] Good points these last few pages. As I see it: - Drake: 7 launchers, rof bonus, 5% dmg bonus, remove one med slot (same slot count as myrmi)(never give it a missile velocity/flight time bonus, HAM's are supposed to be short ranged)(and nerf jav HAM into the 45km range please) - Hurricane: unnerf completely - Myrmidon: 125m^3 just makes it a suicide boat, give it 150-250 m^3 and if you must change bonus to be just for scout drones - boost amarr, although the tier2 BC seems ok now the jav HAM make it impossible to check out the effectiveness of drake on sisi atm - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.23 16:30:00 - [1053] Forget about Drake. Tux will discrace himself if return right bonuses to Drake. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Kodiak31415 Imperial Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.24 06:35:00 - [1054] Just got off of sis using a myrmidon. Just did a bunch of myrmidon vs. other bc fights. Won most of them in my myrm but they were all fairly close. The ones that were close or the ones where I lost involved people shooting my drones. Heres my opinion on the new BC's for 1v1 PVP: Drake: sorry, this may be the ultimate NPC ship but missle boats don't do 1 v 1's very well/(give cladari better rail boats kthnxtux) Harbringer: Didn't fight one but I can only assume they will cap out but will be very very nasty until then Hurricane: Ouch, even with the nerf I lost most of my fights to hurricanes (they all shot my drones, guess matarts are smarter than they look) Myrmidon: Very deadly in the hands of a skilled (both sp and combat) pilot. Taking out drones is key, if you can do this you win. _______________________________ Idea stolen from DS: T2 Synthetic oil. It will get drones to return to your bay!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.11.24 10:10:00 - [1055] Originally by: Kodiak31415 Just got off of sis using a myrmidon. Just did a bunch of myrmidon vs. other bc fights. Won most of them in my myrm but they were all fairly close. The ones that were close or the ones where I lost involved people shooting my drones. Heres my opinion on the new BC's for 1v1 PVP: Drake: sorry, this may be the ultimate NPC ship but missle boats don't do 1 v 1's very well/(give cladari better rail boats kthnxtux) Harbringer: Didn't fight one but I can only assume they will cap out but will be very very nasty until then Hurricane: Ouch, even with the nerf I lost most of my fights to hurricanes (they all shot my drones, guess matarts are smarter than they look) Myrmidon: Very deadly in the hands of a skilled (both sp and combat) pilot. Taking out drones is key, if you can do this you win. Jup taking out drones is key. Hence distance or the ability to hit drones is key. If those drakes would/could stay at range they would not lose: redeploying heavy t2 drones is kinda deadly for the drones if they have to travel ~ 20 km with missiles hitting them. In 1v1 fights you can distinguish quite easily those who understand the tanking ability of the myrmi and those who don't. A dual MAR II setup with good cap keeping is hard to brake for even the old drake. But take out even 2 drones and you can usually scare a myrmi off... Harbringer is a tricky one.. no clue on that, if they come close and myrmi has a nos setup: easy, if they can stay out of nos range they can do quite a bit of dmg.. Huricanes are great ships, imho should be unnerfed but even now they are worth it. - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Dark-Rising	Posted - 2006.11.24 12:09:00 - [1056] I think everything looks pretty ok except the Drake, wich is now just like a Ferox (=useless). Very very boring to be honest. I had looked forward so much so be able to do pvp in the Drake, and i know alot of ppl are sad about this. -1 launcher slot, and +1 turret slot for the Ferox 10% rof bonus for the drake ... and i think everyone will be happy? The other battlecruisers look very balanced and it looks like most normal (read: not sick-in-the-head-whiners) ppl are happy with them. Good work Tux. I really mean it. But plz dont let us down on the Drake? We have waited and hoped for so long now. -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.11.24 15:59:00 - [1057] Does anyone really think the Hurricane would be overpowered if it got its grid reverted back to pre nerf value while the 6 turret layot stays? I say the nerf was over the top and the ship needs its grid back.
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:30:00 - [1058] Originally by: Amy Wang Does anyone really think the Hurricane would be overpowered if it got its grid reverted back to pre nerf value while the 6 turret layot stays? I say the nerf was over the top and the ship needs its grid back. Screw the grid, I want the turret.
Aequitas Veritas TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:30:00 - [1059] ROF + Missile Velocity bonus for the drake & 6 launcher slots "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.11.24 17:42:00 - [1060] Originally by: Atar Originally by: Amy Wang Does anyone really think the Hurricane would be overpowered if it got its grid reverted back to pre nerf value while the 6 turret layot stays? I say the nerf was over the top and the ship needs its grid back. Screw the grid, I want the turret. Not going to happen I predict. We are minmatar, remember? That means we cant have a really good ship in any category because then the universe will collapse or something like that. Getting the grid back is the best we can hope for I¦m afraid.

Kaden Seer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.24 19:07:00 - [1061] hurricane should be seriously badass, unnerf pls
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.24 20:17:00 - [1062] Give back 7th turret and grid, make bonuses only apply to Arty, not to ACs. Would solve the problem for me --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.24 20:43:00 - [1063] I still think instead of the resistance bonus the Drake would be very interesting if it had a sig reduction bonus instead. It would be unique. It would not be overpowered defensively. It would "look" the part, considering the visual design of the ship. I just find it an interesting concept. Perhaps a new area of research for the Caldari.
Mal Corazon	Posted - 2006.11.24 22:08:00 - [1064] My 2 ISK worth... I haven't been on SISI... I'm not too computer literate, and I'm scared to break my current installation of EVE (It's only fair that you know this). I have been recently reading about the Drake nerf. Conceptually I can see how the original 7 launchers + 25% rof + 25% resists might be a little hefty, but the nerf?!? I mean, come on... what happened to the goal of a usuable T1 solo missle boat? At this point my post is dangerously like every other post concerning this issue, but I really feel that these changes are a real bummer. I was really excited that my missle skills might be PVP useful after the release of Kali. Granted the Cerb is useful, but the T2 market is so over-inflated that it's simply not practical for someone with limited mining/ratting time to afford a $300mil ship with the life expectancy of a marine in the D-day invasion. I knew this was going to happen too... Unfortunately the Caldari race isn't allowed to be as PVP effective as the other races unless they skill for EW. Anyhow, no digs on Tux or CCP because I know they are doing their best to keep things fair for everyone, but at some point they are going to have to accept that while a very good PvE race, Caldari are seriously lacking in PVP effective ships. I'll count them out... Crow, Harpy, Blackbird/Rook, Cerberus, Eagle, Scorpion, Rokh. 2 frigs, 2.5 EW (I can't count the blackbird as a whole value because it's fragile heh), Cerberus (too expensive for the avg player to fly in to PVP), Eagle (primarily a frig killer but pretty decent ship), and 1 BS sniper. I maybe missing something, I may be wrong, but I want something other than a Harpy or Crow that costs under 60mil ISK that kicks some butt. I want to enjoy the joys of PVPing without worrying too much about where the ISK to replace everything is going to from. BLAH BLAH BLAH. No one ever reads my posts anyway so I suppose this is all for not, but I had to say it.
Swamp Ziro EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.24 23:39:00 - [1065] Originally by: Atar Originally by: Amy Wang Does anyone really think the Hurricane would be overpowered if it got its grid reverted back to pre nerf value while the 6 turret layot stays? I say the nerf was over the top and the ship needs its grid back. Screw the grid, I want the turret. QFFT
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz	Posted - 2006.11.25 03:07:00 - [1066] Edited by: Areconus on 25/11/2006 03:07:28 Hurricane really needs to be unnerfed. You know the ironic part? The moment i looked at the hurricanes stats from SISI i knew Tux would be thinking about nerfing. See for yourself: Linkage very last post. Can we get our hurricane back plz?
Jake Nicren	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:50:00 - [1067] Edited by: Jake Nicren on 25/11/2006 15:50:32 people are going on about not flying the drake cuz its nerfed... i don't get it... its looks so cool... it just has to be flown... even if it just had the stats of a shuttle :) edit: my main is caldari only specced... this is a 0sp alt who i didn't intend to post with.
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.25 16:21:00 - [1068] If the drake has 7 launchers, then I'm not going to stand for the hurricane with 6! I can fit 6 425s (6 720s), with 2 t2 gyros, and 5 orge IIs on a myrmidon with a tank, but can't fit 7 on a hurricane, that's absurd. Give it 7 turrets, no lauchers and no extra PG!
Ariel Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.25 17:02:00 - [1069] I'll join the crowd and say give the Hurricane it's 7th turret back!
Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2006.11.25 18:45:00 - [1070] how would you fit a hurricane with 7 720 t2s? Seriously, what would be your setup?

Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.25 19:30:00 - [1071] It's about gank not tank, there are plenty of ways to make 720s work.
Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:04:00 - [1072] Edited by: Crewman Jenkins on 25/11/2006 20:03:44 I didn't mean to sound sarcastic
Vim Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:46:00 - [1073] Mmm, please return iffy little 7th turret on cane if drake gets 7 again =( /* Teach a rookie today watch him takedown a battleship tomorrow... */
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:42:00 - [1074] Originally by: Aramendel 7 launchers. any official word on if this was just for testing? or is this one of those "boy the caldari really need this too better throw it on before the patch, shhhhhh" things? hmm.... i dont wanna be one of those 'i'm quitting the game' ppl, but lately i'm havin trouble getting excited over the race i've trained for the past 2+ years...... wtf, over? anything else? perhaps you would like to tack another 50 cpu onto that drake before it goes live? take another 50 pwr off the hurricane? cause its soooo badass i wish i was drunk. i'd be taking this better how about them HAM javs eh? wish i had a weapon that could reach 0-200km + (frackin' caldari easy mode sonsofb!tches)
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:42:00 - [1075] Edited by: HankMurphy on 25/11/2006 21:42:46 dbl post ftl
Terrance O'Conner	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:45:00 - [1076] I just have to say something now... The drake has been given back its 7t launcher, - wee, we're happy again. But wtf... what happened to the caldari command ships?? are t2 ships not s'posed to be better than t1?? I mean, drake have 1 extra launcher = better DPS (I know, NH should get 25% RoF bonus which hasn't happened this far), second, Drake have way more HP than NH (again NH have better resist, which will be equalled out by another hardener - read, the extra mid-slot on drake). So all in all, NH have perhaps an overall 5% increase in combat effectiveness over NH. Now i ask, - is that reasonable as it take approx. 5-6months to train the skills required to fly a NH and about 14days to train for a Drake?? Just something to think about... Good t1 ships are nice, just don't punish those with patience to actually train for t2 ships. IMO its an insult to t2 pilots theese new changes. There's supposed to be difference... even big difference from t1 to t2. AF should equal a cruier(BC). HAC should outclass a BC, t2 BC (HAC version) equal a BS. If you take time to train and money required, the t1 pilots are already at an advantage, so please, - make t2 ships worthwhile again. Regards One slightly concerned t2 pilot
Terrance O'Conner	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:56:00 - [1077] Ok, the 25% RoF is there i'm told, but still believes t2 ships are nerfed... they need to be better. dont expect ppl to use 10 times the training time and money to get a ship thats 5-10% better... T2 must be a challange for a ship at least one ship-class larger, and even stand a chance against two sizes larger. (Not saying a CC should be equal to CAP ships though) Cheers
Nalshiga Dshoayo	Posted - 2006.11.26 02:08:00 - [1078] I have invested a great deal of time to fly command ships (caldari)... now the drake looks like a command ship and the nighthawk looks like a sissy... I dont see any RoF bonus for the nighthawk in todays singularity build. not in the description anyways. so maybe it's in the ship but as long as we hear no official word, I assume the worst. amd both have (as of now) 400 calibration, but the drake has 3(!) and the nighthawk only 2(!) rig slots. I havent run test setups, but the nighthawk doesnt feel like a tech 2 ship anymore (it never really did). I need 7(!!!) skills at LEVEL 5. SEVEN. and for the Drake, I need ZERO! why train half a year to get something which is not or hardly better than standard equipment? and including the rediculous prices for the nighthawk (240 MILLIONS), the nighthawk is worse than the drake will ever be. I love the new ships, but you shouldnt punish those who trained months for a tech 2 upgrade. the nighthawk is more like a dove. it doesnt ooze any danger besides the color and the name. this ship is a huge disappointment.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.26 02:11:00 - [1079] boy you caldari, give em an inch ......
Ceres Cherin	Posted - 2006.11.26 02:40:00 - [1080] Originally by: HankMurphy boy you caldari, give em an inch ...... You give Caldari an inch, and the Gallente want even more Drone Space on the Myrmidon. Deal with it. I personally have no issue as long as we get the option for 7 heavy launchers, instead of a glorified Tier 2 Ferox.

Nalshiga Dshoayo	Posted - 2006.11.26 03:02:00 - [1081] I personally give a crap about the drake. I dont see any reason why a week day old noob should fly one of the best ships available. and you dont need 14 days to fly the drake. you need a week. tops. if you dont specialize. I dont care if the drake has 7 launchers or 5. I dont care if the drake sucks or not. I dont whine about tech 1 stuff. why? because I learned that if I am unhappy with tech 1, I invest time to get tech 2 equipment. And now I am ****ed. I just dont like the fact that I spent so much time training for something any noob can get and can get much cheaper. I dont think they will ask 240 millions for the drake, now wont they?
Viictoria	Posted - 2006.11.26 03:13:00 - [1082] Originally by: Nalshiga Dshoayo I personally give a crap about the drake. I dont see any reason why a week day old noob should fly one of the best ships available. and you dont need 14 days to fly the drake. you need a week. tops. if you dont specialize. I dont care if the drake has 7 launchers or 5. I dont care if the drake sucks or not. I dont whine about tech 1 stuff. why? because I learned that if I am unhappy with tech 1, I invest time to get tech 2 equipment. And now I am ****ed. I just dont like the fact that I spent so much time training for something any noob can get and can get much cheaper. I dont think they will ask 240 millions for the drake, now wont they? Dev confirmed the changes to the Nighthawk were going in but were not ready yet, or something. This was a few days ago, in a post in Ships and Modules I believe. I'll see if I can find it...
Nalshiga Dshoayo	Posted - 2006.11.26 03:47:00 - [1083] Originally by: Viictoria Edited by: Viictoria on 26/11/2006 03:32:44 Originally by: Nalshiga Dshoayo I personally give a crap about the drake. I dont see any reason why a week day old noob should fly one of the best ships available. and you dont need 14 days to fly the drake. you need a week. tops. if you dont specialize. I dont care if the drake has 7 launchers or 5. I dont care if the drake sucks or not. I dont whine about tech 1 stuff. why? because I learned that if I am unhappy with tech 1, I invest time to get tech 2 equipment. And now I am ***ed. I just dont like the fact that I spent so much time training for something any noob can get and can get much cheaper. I dont think they will ask 240 millions for the drake, now wont they? Dev confirmed the changes to the Nighthawk were going in but were not ready yet, or something. This was a few days ago, in a post in Ships and Modules I believe. I'll see if I can find it... Edit: Can't find it ... will update later if I do. A few have claimed the RoF has been improved on SiSi though, just not the description* the thread's name is: "A bit more changes" in ships and modules.... yes, I just checked. RoF is much higher as it should be... about the 20% which I should get with command ships IV.... I sure hope it really will be in the final version. the posting was from 10.19.2006... more than enough time to change your mind... but IF the nighthawk gets the RoF bonus, it is better than a 7th missile slot... but I still dont get why so much on the Drake screams Tech 2 and not Tier 2...
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.26 04:42:00 - [1084] I hate to say it, but the tank on these caldari ships is to the point of silly, I can get 18000 shield with a 400 recharge and 70%+ on all resits totally passive tank, including passive hardeners with a full rack of heavy missiles! Yeah....
Viictoria	Posted - 2006.11.26 04:52:00 - [1085] Originally by: Atar I hate to say it, but the tank on these caldari ships is to the point of silly, I can get 18000 shield with a 400 recharge and 70%+ on all resits totally passive tank, including passive hardeners with a full rack of heavy missiles! Yeah.... 45/hp per second is insane? News to me. And heavy missiles eh? Run for the hills!
Rusting	Posted - 2006.11.26 06:42:00 - [1086] In reguards to the Drake... With CCP's aim being to increase PVP encounters and stop the 10s battles that occur I think they have nailed it on the head with the Drake with exception to the 7th missile hardpoint. The resist bonus makes it a decent tank and the RoF bonus makes it a damage dealer for sure. The only thing off about this ship is that it has too many missile hardpoints. It leaves plenty of room for tanking with the 6 mids. and with 6 M hardpoints it has equaled out DPS. Plus with it's grid in the dirt like it is you're gonna need mad skills to properly equip one where it wont totally suck balls. I doubt you'll see PVP n00bs flying it. TBH with the boosts Kali is giving to the BCs I'm surprised more people aren't crying about the shield pump that the ferox is gonna get those suckers are gonna be a pain to bring down especially with shield extenders becoming better. -Rusting
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.26 09:11:00 - [1087] Originally by: Atar If the drake has 7 launchers, then I'm not going to stand for the hurricane with 6! I can fit 6 425s (6 720s), with 2 t2 gyros, and 5 orge IIs on a myrmidon with a tank, but can't fit 7 on a hurricane, that's absurd. Give it 7 turrets, no lauchers and no extra PG! Drake with 7 launchers is still bull****. Only ROF bonus put Drake on the similar level as other BC tier2. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.26 09:13:00 - [1088] Originally by: Atar I hate to say it, but the tank on these caldari ships is to the point of silly, I can get 18000 shield with a 400 recharge and 70%+ on all resits totally passive tank, including passive hardeners with a full rack of heavy missiles! This ship is good only for PvE. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:13:00 - [1089] Time to unnerf the Hurricane then, huh?
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.26 13:00:00 - [1090] I can't believe they really have the gall to give the Drake back its 7th launcher and NOT the hurricane its 7th turret. Thats like holding up a big sign saying 'We offically hate Minmatar'. What's next, Drake gets back its RoF bonus and Hurricane gets back its 50 PG to balance that? --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler

Nalshiga Dshoayo	Posted - 2006.11.26 13:41:00 - [1091] Originally by: Atar I hate to say it, but the tank on these caldari ships is to the point of silly, I can get 18000 shield with a 400 recharge and 70%+ on all resits totally passive tank, including passive hardeners with a full rack of heavy missiles! Yeah.... you are perfectly right: you can fit an incredible tank on some caldari ships; BUT then you cant kill anything bigger than a frig. damage output on caldari command ships is rediculously LOW. what use is it to be able to tank against a BS when you cannot even kill a well fit BC with it? not including the fact that you indeed CAN shoot down missiles but NOT bullets/hybrid charges/laser beams. with DEFENDER missiles (which DO WORK GREATLY by the way), anyone can survive the best fit caldari missile boat without breaking sweat. that most people are too stupid to do that doesnt justify all the trashtalk about the supposed "caldari-nberness". in PvP caldari have a serious drawback because of this among other reasons. what good is the best PvE build when you are unable to deal enough damage in PvP? I am not really unhappy about Caldari, though. and I am not displeased about the missile situation. I do NOT think that caldari needs a buff or anything like that. I think it all works out pretty well atm. but the command ship situation is ****ing me off. the training time is NOTHING compared to the expensive slug you get.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 15:39:00 - [1092] Originally by: Nalshiga Dshoayo with DEFENDER missiles (which DO WORK GREATLY by the way) Test them in real PvP once. The defender missle use of NPCs does NOT reflect their effeciency in PvP. Also, they are no real counter because their fitting is not free. For every defender launcher you fit you loose 1 turret, nos or (damage) misile slot of your own to counter a missile slot of someone attacking you with missiles.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.26 15:44:00 - [1093] You always must choose between ofence and defence.. Drake is now very strong ship, but not overpowered, not overnerfed. Adventage of NH above Drake is greater CPU witch allows fit launcher rigs easily (witch is bit difficult on drake). BTW I agree with 7th turret on Hurry BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 15:59:00 - [1094] Originally by: Aki Yamato You always must choose between ofence and defence.. You mean like a missle spammer can fit a full rack of weapons, a full tank and 3 damagemods? And the problem is, again, that you are loosing one damage/nos slot - which is useful vs everything (if it is in range, that is) in exchange for a defender (which is ONLY useful vs missiles, and even there lack quite a lot in real pvp; and nvmd that not every ship even has missleslots). And, as said, defenders do not work very well. Even if you have 8 defender launchers on a ship you will usually only be able to kill 1 missle of a salvo because all always go vs the nearest missile.
Nalshiga Dshoayo	Posted - 2006.11.26 16:13:00 - [1095] Originally by: Aki Yamato You always must choose between ofence and defence.. Drake is now very strong ship, but not overpowered, not overnerfed. Adventage of NH above Drake is greater CPU witch allows fit launcher rigs easily (witch is bit difficult on drake). BTW I agree with 7th turret on Hurry I have no problems fitting the drake with 7 tech II launchers. and that 30 more cpu dont make up for the 140(!) more powergrid and 1 more rig slot.
Rusting	Posted - 2006.11.26 16:14:00 - [1096] After thinking about it last night and seriously reconsidering the current status of the Drake(I'm told the bonuses are Resist and Kin damage right?), I believe the best move for the Drake would be to remove the Resist bonus add RoF and switch out the Kin damage for something we haven't seen before ie Cap bonus Shield recharge bonus something like that. With 6 mid slots there's plenty of room to fit an active tank or a passive one and still have 2 slots for EW. The resists bonus makes the Drake an Uber Ferox and that's it. And if these new BCs are supposed to be truly gank i think this is the way to do it. Drake 7 launchers 5% RoF bonus instead of 5% Resists and a secondary bonus of some sort still keep 6 mids
Nalshiga Dshoayo	Posted - 2006.11.26 16:16:00 - [1097] Originally by: Aki Yamato You always must choose between ofence and defence.. that tells me you missed the point or you simply dont get the problem discussed here. point is: you CANNOT choose between offense and defense, because strong offense is simply not an option on the NH. it is NOT possible. it IS however possible on other command ships which have similar tanking abilities. (keep the 710 powergrid of the NH in mind)
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.26 16:48:00 - [1098] Originally by: Nalshiga Dshoayo Originally by: Aki Yamato You always must choose between ofence and defence.. Drake is now very strong ship, but not overpowered, not overnerfed. Adventage of NH above Drake is greater CPU witch allows fit launcher rigs easily (witch is bit difficult on drake). BTW I agree with 7th turret on Hurry I have no problems fitting the drake with 7 tech II launchers. and that 30 more cpu dont make up for the 140(!) more powergrid and 1 more rig slot. You saw a New NH ? You are compering ald and broken ship (with 90% firepower of cerberus). So lets wait for new NH and then we can compare .... BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Atar Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.11.26 16:50:00 - [1099] Originally by: Leandro Salazar I can't believe they really have the gall to give the Drake back its 7th launcher and NOT the hurricane its 7th turret. Thats like holding up a big sign saying 'We offically hate Minmatar'. What's next, Drake gets back its RoF bonus and Hurricane gets back its 50 PG to balance that? To True! I just cannot understand how we are saying give a 7th turret back and TAKE AWAY all launchers how that will ever unbalance the hurricane is beyond me, we are asking to take away damage, becasue now we can have 6 turrets and 2 launchers. The idea here isn't more damage it's one weapon type, I have 9mil in gunnery I don't want to or should need to train up missiles too, carry around 2 types of ammo (4 damage type for missiles) For god sake give us a one weapon ship. This isn't whining this is common sense!
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.26 21:23:00 - [1100] Heck if there is a hidden rule with CCP that Minmatar ships must never be great, take away all missile slots and the 8th high on top of it. But please give us the 7th turret. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler

Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.11.27 09:05:00 - [1101] I think we must accept CCP does not want to any minmatar ship to be able to win 1v1 against any other ship of same class. So give us at least a way to use our ships! Don't want to give us our weapons? So give us 15 more ms on speed. Than we ccan run away from the much more powerfull BC from other races....
Akiman	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:38:00 - [1102] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Heck if there is a hidden rule with CCP that Minmatar ships must never be great, take away all missile slots and the 8th high on top of it. But please give us the 7th turret. yeah why not u give the 7th missile slot to drake anyway...why not?...WHY NOT?!?
Ysolde Xen Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.11.27 13:27:00 - [1103] Well I'm guessing it's all in code freeze now bar a last couple of small bugfixes. A shame that the Hurricane lost it's original artillery-capable concept to become an armour-tanking variant of the Cyclone. WTB Artillery ship that isn't a Tempest. ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Draycar Hazaran eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.27 13:40:00 - [1104] Erm....you can always fit a Thrasher with 280s and grief shuttles all day Might As well Train Another Race
Nalshiga Dshoayo	Posted - 2006.11.27 14:45:00 - [1105] Edited by: Nalshiga Dshoayo on 27/11/2006 14:49:00 Originally by: Aki Yamato Originally by: Nalshiga Dshoayo Originally by: Aki Yamato You always must choose between ofence and defence.. Drake is now very strong ship, but not overpowered, not overnerfed. Adventage of NH above Drake is greater CPU witch allows fit launcher rigs easily (witch is bit difficult on drake). BTW I agree with 7th turret on Hurry I have no problems fitting the drake with 7 tech II launchers. and that 30 more cpu dont make up for the 140(!) more powergrid and 1 more rig slot. You saw a New NH ? You are compering ald and broken ship (with 90% firepower of cerberus). So lets wait for new NH and then we can compare .... YES OF COURSE I AM TALKING ABOUT THE "NEW" one. which is SAME as old one with a RoF bonus. puts it 8% above drake in damage output. I am not a person like you obviously are, who talks about stuff he/she does not have a clue about. you just have to log on to singularity to fly one. (if you have the skills - which you dont have, otherwise you would know what a piece of crap that expensive slug really is.)
Azuse	Posted - 2006.11.27 15:33:00 - [1106] Edited by: Azuse on 27/11/2006 15:35:51 The public deployment of kail with the current build tomorrow really makes you question the decision given the balancing issues. The bc are either overpowered or underpowered, k the drake doesnt do nighthawk dammge (but its lost its real ablilitys vs. frigs) and the myrn is chronically underpowered, its easy to see why you dont want a bc to carry 5 heavys, itll be the same as the ishtar with more tank (but it doesnt matter that the brutix has been out dammaging and out tanking the demios for a year, a decent dronebay is unthinkable in a ship dependant on drones. Had anyone been playing close attention to the test server they would have notticed most of the dead myrns died after loosing their drones and had similar dammage to most vexors). Same with the bs, the rokh is a superb sniper at 250/300km, youll also find it fantastic at 12km with blasters and full tank. Compair this with the hyperion, again its a decent sniper, better than the thron if you fit right (oh the irony) it losses 25m drone space (so only 4 heavys vs. thorns 5) it also gain an extra turret, which we all love because it also has the throns grid and fitting 7 turret on that is almost impossible without an rcu i.e compramising tank so to compensate you take away 2 lows making it harder to fit, genius. So its got a rep bonus, great so we fit 2 reps and have 4 slots to tank, plus our rcus, and the iceing on the cake of course is that 8 guns leaves no room for nos (and a blaster, no matter how deluded the piolt is, wont run on boosters alone if its using hardeners and theres not much options with those lows). p.s. the thorns still outdammages it, and with these rigs plus 2 additional lows it also out tanks it now. So in summary weve got now ships tha dont know what therye ment to be, cost 50 mil more (80 if the insurace is accurate) and do less dammage across all the races, exept caldari which are now the ranged race with the best blasters.
GRIM REAPERjib	Posted - 2006.11.27 19:09:00 - [1107] OMFG its harbinger NOT harbringer, that being said. the myrm is crap. im an experienced drone user and just to make it clear, u need more drone space. drones arent that good you all, + it needs time to get to its target and are pretty vulnerable too.
Kaden Seer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.27 19:29:00 - [1108] I vote for Hurricane's 7th turret, otherwise it's unfair to Minnie.
haq aan	Posted - 2006.11.27 21:13:00 - [1109] Originally by: Kaden Seer I vote for Hurricane's 7th turret, otherwise it's unfair to Minnie. We minnies get used to be suck. Lets see what was the last changes : +25 m3 drone bay , +1 turret to Myrmidon (less than 1 week left for revelations) +1 launcher to Drake (1 day left for revelations) I dnt be suprised if i see 8th launcher on Drake , or 250 m3 drone bay + hybrid dmg bonus on Myrmidon while just 5 mins left for deployment.
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.11.27 22:31:00 - [1110] Edited by: 2SecondsTilMidnight on 27/11/2006 22:35:23 Edited by: 2SecondsTilMidnight on 27/11/2006 22:32:26 Do you guys have like 0 missle skills or something? With -1 turret from before, you can fill that in with a missle launcher. Dps wont be as high but it wouldn't be terribly low as if you had 6 turrets 0 launchers. Edit: I am for a 7th turret though, I just don't think it is as crappy as most people make it out to be. Edit #2: And incase some of you argue that the drake could've used a turret in place of the lost launcher, good luck fitting a medium sized turret with drake's pg.

Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.11.28 01:55:00 - [1111] Well one problem is that even IF we like the Hurricane as is, we cannot afford to admit that. When the original Hurricane was well received, Tux went like 'Oh lookie the minnies like the Hurricane, it must be overpowered' and it got nerfed. Now I will always rather whine even about a ship that I like rather than saying it is fine. And I am probably not the only one. The original Hurricane was NOT overpowered, it was simply good. Didn't see more than normal complaints about the Hurricane from other race users either, which kinda proves the point. As opposed to the Drake which really was overpowered and got a lot of flak from all non-Caldaris and even some Caldaris for that. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
CenturinSG	Posted - 2006.11.28 17:11:00 - [1112] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Well one problem is that even IF we like the Hurricane as is, we cannot afford to admit that. When the original Hurricane was well received, Tux went like 'Oh lookie the minnies like the Hurricane, it must be overpowered' and it got nerfed. Now I will always rather whine even about a ship that I like rather than saying it is fine. And I am probably not the only one. The original Hurricane was NOT overpowered, it was simply good. Didn't see more than normal complaints about the Hurricane from other race users either, which kinda proves the point. As opposed to the Drake which really was overpowered and got a lot of flak from all non-Caldaris and even some Caldaris for that. And then they wonder why everyone whines.
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.11.29 10:14:00 - [1113] Well i would like to congratulate the winners of this competition. The gallente once more proved to bethe best whiners and turned the tables to have the best BC while shoting in all directions to be able to nerf others for no reason. The Ammar with a reasonable level of forum warrior skills used for long on THE UBER AMAR WHINE THREAD.. got a reasonable ship too. Caldarai alsmot were got by suprise, but at last moment were able to save a bit of their BC. And once more minmatar proved to be the worst whiners of eve. Comoe on, matars need to try harder! Well maybe next year? I hope we can at least avoid that when we geta Tech 2 Battleship we get a typhoon with extra bonuses to target painter and capacitor usage on lasers.


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