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Mephysto	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:17:00 - [1] Discuss here so we dont have to read 500000000 threads.

Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:23:00 - [2] Edited by: Blind Man on 26/10/2006 10:23:33 I may as well post my thread here then. considering BC level 5: Caldari Ferox and Drake, they both get a shield res bonus (I thought the tier 2's were more 'damage dealers'?) The Drake also gets another mid and high over the Ferox, making it a better tank anyway. Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. I also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship. Amarr I see more of the same here. The Harbinger gets 7 guns, whereas the Absolution gets 6. Unless you have command ships level 5 (Damage AND ROF bonus on Absolution both come from this skill) I believe that a Harbinger comes very close DPS-wise. I didn't check the other BC's but the Harbinger has more armor HP than the absolution? Minmatar To MATCH the damage of a hurricane, you need command ships 5 on a Sleipnir. Now given that a hurricane loses a lot of tank to use 3 gyros where the Sleipnir loses nothing, it may seem as less of a problem. However the ability to fit MWD, scram, web, and cap injector AND have the same damage as a Sleipnir, seems a bit silly. Gallente Actually don't see much wrong here, Brutix and Astarte seem fine, and the Myrmidon- it seems to be nicely lower in damage than the Eos (the way it should be.) It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:31:00 - [3] The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 - [4] the nighthawk needs a 7th launcher, that should have been painfully apparent right from the start though. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Blind Man Ferox and Drake, they both get a shield res bonus (I thought the tier 2's were more 'damage dealers'?) True enough, but I can't really endorse the idea that this thing does even more damage. Originally by: Blind Man The Drake also gets another mid and high over the Ferox, making it a better tank anyway. Also true. Originally by: Blind Man Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. Yea, after this I feel that the Ferox will need to have a look at in order to not become useless to anyone who is not using it as a stepping stone between the Moa and Rokh. Originally by: Blind Man I also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship. Also an issue, but the Drake doesn't have the resists of the NightHawk. Though I do agree their comparative damages need some tweaking. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:42:00 - [6] If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay! Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc. It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:47:00 - [7] Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 10:48:04 Oh and please fix the model/texture on the Harbinger so that the last turret isn't lopsided on the bottom, move it to the centre of the ship - or give it its 8th turret back =P Originally by: madaluap It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. And the Brutix. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Leshrac Shepherd Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:54:00 - [8] Changing the resistance bonus on the drake to missile speed seems to make some sense, even if only for the sake of consistence, missile ships rarely get resistance bonuses, with the only case being the nighthawk. I also think adding an extra turret to the merlin, moa, raptor, eagle and ferox wouldn't hurt anything balance wise, not that it matters as the only way to make them popular would be making them better than their equivalent missile ships, and I don't have to explain how ridiculous would that be. I understand why people want a bigger drone bay in the myrmidon, It makes sense that you should able to bring spare wings of drones with you, the problem is that allowing that would also make the myrmidon's firepower go even higher than it is now, and it wouldn't really be fair. Anyway, it presents choices, you can either pack 4 heavy drones for max damage or 10 med drones or any combination to have spare ones. It doesn't seem so bad once you factor in the ship also has 8 hi slots and 5 turrets.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.26 10:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:04:00 - [10] I don't think that the "final" version of the Drake will be keeping that 5% shield resists bonus... or at least I hope so. It's got roughly enough of a gank going (so damage bonus would be overkill, but range not so much), no need to give it more tank (I thought it's supposed to be inferior in tanking to the Ferox, it's not). Change that 5% shield resist to kinetic missile damage (or missile speed, or missile flight time) or even (semi-useless bonus) of less capacitor for shieldboosters (as if you wouldn't use it as passive tank anyway... this way you could make it work as active tank too). _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself

Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:16:00 - [11] The extra drone bay on the gallente BC seems like a good idea as currently it's pretty pathetic. If it's considered too strong to let it field 5 heavy drones then why not have it with a 150m3 drone bay but its drone bonus only applies on light and medium drones. That's an incentive to use smaller drones and use the drone bay for replacements/options instead of racks of heavy drones. The drakes does seem rather strong - but possibly only because the ferox is so weak. The ferox needs more turert hardpoints. I would like to see the drake be weaker defensively for balance reasons (although I would love to fly it how it is now!) so perhaps it should get a 5% damage bonus on kinetic missiles instead of the current resist bonus? This does give it an option of increasing damage output, but only by tieing it to one damage type. Zarch AlDain
Lydia Browm Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:19:00 - [12] The BC's damage should be close the that of its T2 variant ie the Field Command, with the same damage you are forgetting the CS still has the bigger tanks. Myrmidon (sp) give it 25m3 more dronebay or give it a 15% bonus to drones? or 12.5%. Or maybe 10% bonus to the damage and a 20% bonus to its hitpoints. I criplled a Myrmidon with T2 heavies in a basic T1 / namd setup lock drones web shoot rinse and repeat 4 times. Left it criplled and then slowly went through its tank. PLEASE don't give it a hybrid bonus Drake give it slightly less pg so that it can't fit a nasty tank aswell as assault missiles or heavies. I swa one drake had a tank 3 bcu pdu and heavy missiles and i tried to take him in the hurricane, didn't manage but was probably using the wrong ammo The Amarr pretty good, maybe give it some more cap, fits Heavy Pulse II and a decent gank setup Hurricane pretty good deal some damage and can look after itself long enough to kill most armour tanking ships becuase I use Fusin on shield too Don't nerf them completely, just try and keep them on PAR with CS damage but just bare 1 thing in mind, they won't be able to tank And one last thing Look ma I'm in a DEV's thread ___________________________________________ Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty...
Mysterlee Gallente 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:20:00 - [13] Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:21:32 Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:20:39 The Myrmidon definately needs a bigger drone bay, 175m3 would be a nice value and allows more variety in its choice of drones. Fielding 1 extra heavy drone vs the 4 it can currently field wont make a huge difference to its DPS. The ship texture of the Myrmidon could do with having the 6th turret hardpoint removed and it could also do with being a bit more detailed, it looks a bit cartoony as it is right now. I'm not sure but the 7th turret hardpoint of the Hurricane and Harbinger could be swapped for a launcher slot and the 7th launcher slot on the Drake removed to bring their DPS slightly lower than their T2 equivalents and also lower the powergrid slightly to compensate. Their T2 equivalents should also have their models replaced with the new tier 2 BC models and have their stats adjusted to match the tier 2 BCs more closely.
Bramson Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:27:00 - [14] Myrmidon I disagree with increasing the drone bay anymore that it currently is. With the current 100 m3 drone bay that is 2 waves of tech 2 medium drones which can rip up a cruiser and other battlecruisers while still doing decent damage to battleships. I really like how this ship is setup currently - It is a step between a VEXOR and a DOMINEX for purpose of survivability and being a drone boat. On a side note: The designer of this ship created it with the purpose of using 6 turret slots and currently with its 5 turret slots it looks like it is missing a turret. ###### Caldari Battlecruiser Usually with Caldari you can see a progression of ship types in the sizes. For example: Cruiser Moa and BattleCruiser Ferox have similiar bonus's and good for your average hybrid specialized caldari pilot especially now they have to look forward to the Rokh. With the new BC for Caldari which is more like a CARACAL and a mini Raven - you would think it would have the normal % bonus to kinetic missile damage and missile velocity bonus. Giving it the 5% shield per level as well is pretty extreme ;). Application Programming Agent
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:31:00 - [15] If it gets 50% range or velocity to missiles it becomes even more overpowered with assault missiles. Those things are already going to tear most ships a new exhaust port. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. 'Same DPS as Dominix'. Really, Mr Exclamation Mark. What insight you have. The Dominix can EASILY top 1000 DPS. In fact, it is in theory the highest DPS ship in the whole game. Havent you trained large blasters yet? I recommend you do. The Dominix is more than simply a Nos boat. The bonus to large hybrids should not be wasted. I'll tell you what anyone with the slightest bit of PvP savvy will do when they see a Myrm in its current state: They will pop the drones and render it utterly useless. 100m3 simply is not big enough for a ship which is mid-way between the Vexor and Dominix.
V0idz Gallente Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:35:00 - [17] Edited by: V0idz on 26/10/2006 11:35:50 I've to agree to nearly all posts about the Gallente BC. The Myrmidon needs a bigger dronebay but only an bous to light- and med-drone damage per level. Example 1 (Drone related): - 175m¦ dronebay - 7,5% Damage for Light- and Med-Drones per Skill-Level Example 2 (Drone related): - 150m¦ dronebay - 5% more dronebay capacity per Skill-Level something like this.. jm2c ---
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Old Geeza Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. Sweet jesus no. It's nice being able to Get decent damage out of all missile types rather than one kind. And the Slot swapping? eugh, no. That Extra mid allows it to do so much, a Warp Scrambler is needed for PvP. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:40:00 - [19] Originally by: Old Geeza If it gets 50% range or velocity to missiles it becomes even more overpowered with assault missiles. Those things are already going to tear most ships a new exhaust port. Speed hurricanes will be a great counter to Assault Drakes. They'll jsut stay out of range and whittle you down in a 1v1, and in general PvP there will be plenty of other ships doing this too. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Namtuk	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:50:00 - [20] So basicaly u guys are asking for another overpowered Caldari ships, drake with 25% dmg bonus lol nice joke, as for the statement BS dmf should be close to there T2 variant whats that all about train for months only tom senn some noobs getting into a ship that needs very basic skills and be able to do same dmg or more with right setup, hmm let me see I THINK NO to that one

Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:51:00 - [21] Drake seems very nice - very capable and I think people is just scared... 7 launchers with rof bonus seems like much but the other ships got a lot of weapons too, and even the gallente tier 1 BC should still be able outdamage the Drake... 6 medslots is needed for a Caldari PvP ship of this size... We won't be able to get asweet passive tanked Drake spitting out Heavies/Heavy Assaults, so we need all 6 slots for tank, scrambler and Afterburners/MicroWarpDrives and I still doubt we'll have a strong tank... Shield Resist Bonus - That will help the shield tank a lot... If it doesn't stay I can understand it, but only because the ferox gunboat already has this bonus. 6 medslots isn't a lot so if it stays it'll ease up the pain a bit to get a descent tank while still having a free slot for mwd/scrambler... I guess thats why it's on testserver Pinky
LC Sulla BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 11:54:00 - [22] Why not give the Myrmidon the drone bay it needs and then restrict the drone bonuses to only light and medium drones (thus leaving the Domi as the heavy drone boat).
Kapitanleutnant Mei	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:03:00 - [23] my suggestion is simple GANK not TANK DRAKE: replace 5% shield resist bonus with 10% missile velocity- this make it even more of a killing machine but a lot more vulnerable. It also makes sense for consitencies's sake and don't raise its dps any further which is important Myrmidon: (I'm less certain about these so they may suck) replace 10% drone damage bonus with +10M3 of drone bay per skill level - it can now use your 5 heavies but is more vulnerable replace armour rep bonus with 5% med hybrid damage per level, again this makes it more deadly but as we've removed the drone hitpoint damage bonus this helps offset that by ensuring its not totally fubared if it has to bring out its lights. I don't fly ammarr or minnie but from what i;ve seen they seem to work very well- the Ammarr one could possibly do with like 25 more grid just to ease its fitting but that's about it, the minnie one looks pure sex
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:07:00 - [24] Harbringer is a pain to fit. Im with AWU 4 and fit heavy pulses + ab + 800 plate + small rep its my max this is even counting turret rigs with make it worse. I tried fit a cap booster but there isnt enough powergrid It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:11:00 - [25] Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 12:14:23 Even with 5 heavy drones and the current bonuses the Myrm wont come even close to Domi DPS - just like the Ishtar doesent. It ill be about 3-400 DPS short, which is LOADS. It will, in fact, still do less damage than a brutix... Originally by: Mikal Drey Im not keen on it You are insane, your name is on the list and some nice men will come by your house tonight to take care of you. Its a zomgawesome AC boat, ACs > Arty, dont you dare touch it to make it another lame shield-tanked artypantsthing. More speed = good though ^_^ Dont touch the bonuses on pain of sodastreamed bree. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Mikal Drey Angels and Demons	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:11:00 - [26] hey hey Hurricane Description on the Hurricane "suggests its gonna be fast" its base speed is the same as the cyclone. I'd love and think that its base speed should be slightly improved to reflect this. 4x mids on a matari ship :/ i ws expecting a shield tanking Arty boat but its looking towards an auto cannon setup. Grid : Tried to get a 720mm setup acros the top and a semi decent armor tank in the lows and totally failed. ( and i have high skills) next trip will try autos as i suspect this will be more suited for. Looks : OMFG yeah it looks sexhey but doesnt fit matari style; however looks awesomely shagable. Drone bay needs a tweek. its smalller than the Cyclones and really should be bigger. Damage looks strong and the bonus fits matari designs but the balance between Tier II and Commands would then be out of whack. not convinced id buy one or if it will be effective PvE but if the base speed was tweeked and maybe a bonus to MWD or AB i think it would be pretty good PvP in a small roaming gank squad. TBH i much prefer the cyclone. CAP : yes i think the increased cap is spot on. Skill Req. Skill should req. BC 2 minimum. I know most will train ship skills to 3 min but 2 really should be required for a tier II ship. I'll flight test it some more, blow a few up, and tank test it till it breaks. Im not keen on it ( im 100% minmatar spec'ed ) but will keep an open mind atm.
Kapitanleutnant Mei	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:18:00 - [27] Originally by: keepiru It will, in fact, still do less damage than a brutix... I don't understand the problem with this- the brutix does phenominal dps- its a blaster boat , and you want to give the myr MORE
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:26:00 - [28] You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:31:00 - [29] Here's an interesting titbit on the Myrmidon: 5 Medium drones do 237.6 thermal damage or less (there is no way at all to get it higher). Here's an interesting titbit on cruisers: Cruisers generally aren't ripped apart by merely 250dps. The damage output of the Myrmidon is low. It's lack of replacements crippling. This could be weighed up by being placed on an adequate backup platform with either turret-based damage or electronics based backup, but the Myrmidon is, with the changes to ECM, not capable of performing neither. It needs it's drone bay doubled or more (this would at most add 95 more dps to the Myrmidon, which would allow it to compete with the other BCs for dps if it sacrifices it's tank - you can't tank with two low slots and an MWD on board). - What am I listening to?
Mikal Drey Angels and Demons	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:31:00 - [30] Originally by: keepiru your name is on the list and some nice men will come by your house tonight to take care of you. Its a zomgawesome AC boat, ACs > Arty, dont you dare touch it to make it another lame shield-tanked artypantsthing. IF the speed and agility gets increased Id forsee a stabber/vaga styled BC and yes it would Pwn. the cap looks good for a dual rep setup and 5/2 autos and the new heavy assault missiles will be pretty damn cool. but in its current state its still a minne sludge monkey. Also with such a good bonus and AC effectiveness the sleipnir might need an upgrade (slightly) STILL NOT KEEN and i can hear them comming oh and Cyclone for Claymore graphic and Hurricane for the sleipnir :)

Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:34:00 - [31] Originally by: keepiru You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes? In theory. In practice it does not. The theoretical levels are only reachable if you fit it with neutron blasters and damage mods, which leaves no powergrid for even an MWD. However, it also needs to be said that the Dominix has only one less hardpoint than the Megathron and similar damage bonuses. As we all know theory > practice. The Dominix does not outdamage the Megathron. - What am I listening to?
El'jonson	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:34:00 - [32] The Myr is a DRONE BOAT !!! please don't try and turn it into a 1/2 drone 1/2 gunboat. If u want to use turrets fly a brutix. Tier 2 bc will cost twice tier 1 so the cost of a Myr is around 45-50 mil, this is alot closer to the cost of a tier 1 bs than a cruiser so the damage done should reflect this so the Myr should have a drone bay of 200m3. All these ppl saying just fit nos and blasters... Nos are probably going to get nerfed soon. Blasters on this ships makes no sense as it is a pure drone boat hence the no bonus to hybrid damage, also if u fit it with blasters you have no option other than to get up close to your target which is what the brutix is for. Which as the Myr has the highest sig radius means getting the blasters into range takes time (normally) in which you will be taking damage. In short I don't mind losing a few turrets in favour of the gallente finally getting a pure drone boat.
SexySexy Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:35:00 - [33] Myrmidon : i wish +1 drone control per level
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: keepiru You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes? In theory. In practice it does not. The theoretical levels are only reachable if you fit it with neutron blasters and damage mods, which leaves no powergrid for even an MWD. However, it also needs to be said that the Dominix has only one less hardpoint than the Megathron and similar damage bonuses. As we all know theory > practice. The Dominix does not outdamage the Megathron. Yes. Thats exactly my point. WHat that means is: there's no real reason not to give the myrmidon 6 hardpoints and 250m3 drone bay, since even if you did cripple yourself with 6 neutrons and 3 damage mods, leaving you with not enough grid for your obligatory tech II sodastream, you will still be outdamaged by the brutix. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 12:59:00 - [35] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:45 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:05 Also here a myrmidon consideration: As it is now sucks because it should be a drone ship but with this drone bay everyone will immediatly shot at his drones instead the ship living him unable to make damage ( ergo: is death). A drone ship MUST have a great replacement of drenes. COnsider that it's whe only weapon that can be popped in game .. all turret/missile users have still theys weapon ( ergo: dammage capability ) until ship pop. Drone ships are he only that risk to loose theyr weapons. I will not make maths, board is plenty of them, i will only keep clear that a drone ship must have many replacemnt, execially if ship hitpoints will be boosted ( longer battles == more time to kill drones ). If ( and i repeat "if" because i'm not convinced ) 5 heavy drones scary so much, ballance this ship reducing number of turrets. but have only 4 heavies it's ridicolous ... a drake will pop all drones in 15 secs ( 7 heavy lancher and a rof bonus? it's a "drone-popping fest" )and then the mirmidon id powerless. im stil convinced that the best loadout for this ship is: hi: 6, 4 turrets ( -2 hi slots, -1 turret ) med: 5 low: 6 ( +1 low slot) drone bay: 200m3 bonus 1: drone hitpoint & dammage bonus 2: armour rep bonus
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey Hurricane Description on the Hurricane "suggests its gonna be fast" its base speed is the same as the cyclone. I'd love and think that its base speed should be slightly improved to reflect this. 4x mids on a matari ship :/ i ws expecting a shield tanking Arty boat but its looking towards an auto cannon setup. Grid : Tried to get a 720mm setup acros the top and a semi decent armor tank in the lows and totally failed. ( and i have high skills) next trip will try autos as i suspect this will be more suited for. Looks : OMFG yeah it looks sexhey but doesnt fit matari style; however looks awesomely shagable. Drone bay needs a tweek. its smalller than the Cyclones and really should be bigger. Damage looks strong and the bonus fits matari designs but the balance between Tier II and Commands would then be out of whack. not convinced id buy one or if it will be effective PvE but if the base speed was tweeked and maybe a bonus to MWD or AB i think it would be pretty good PvP in a small roaming gank squad. TBH i much prefer the cyclone. CAP : yes i think the increased cap is spot on. Skill Req. Skill should req. BC 2 minimum. I know most will train ship skills to 3 min but 2 really should be required for a tier II ship. I'll flight test it some more, blow a few up, and tank test it till it breaks. Im not keen on it ( im 100% minmatar spec'ed ) but will keep an open mind atm. Please just shut up and leave my Hurricane alone. It's my (and a lot of other people's) dream ship. Just WHAT else do you want? No thanks for a shield tanking arty boat, but guess what. You can still make it. Oh and the ACs + tank capabilities of it are just sexy. Other than that, god forbid our dear Matari brothers and sisters could actually, you know, learn to make proper high tech ships now that some time has passed and there's the Republic etc. I find the tech progression of the race from the once slaves, trough the rebellion, up to today really interesting, i like how they progress from ships like the rupture, trough the likes of the Trasher and Cyclone, and then to the new BC, BS and capitals. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Originally by: Jim McGregor All the nodes are belong to us!
Pichemanu	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:15:00 - [37] The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. ******* buhuhu... *******
EvilNate Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:19:00 - [38] This might just be me, I love the hurricane, but I think it needs a slight speed increase, not much, maybe 5m/s or so, but otherwise it's perfect. Nate.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. 5 medium drones and 5 guns with no dmg bonus are BEYOND PATHETIC for a BC. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:32:00 - [40] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:51 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:10 Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. u ever used a dominix??????? or a vexor ? or an arbitrator? U know what u are ltalking about ?? if u are not competent of droneship dont post! They have space for a drone replacement. Not considering domi ( wich have a virtualy infinite space for drones... ), vexors and arbitrators have place for 1 wave and half of medium drones. so a ship like mirmidon ( average cost 7x of the vexor ) could not have only 2 waves of medium drones. A ship like that , with this speed and sig radius must have space for heavy drones, not mediums ( wich require 25m3 instrad of 10m3). give him space for 7,5 heavy drones ( as vexor have space for 7,5 medium drones) and i will be happy ( 7,5 x 25m3 == 187,5m3 i asked 200m3 not much difference ad u can see). think before posting ...

Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:49:00 - [41] Originally by: LC Sulla Why not give the Myrmidon the drone bay it needs and then restrict the drone bonuses to only light and medium drones (thus leaving the Domi as the heavy drone boat). Or perhaps 7.5% bonus to heavy drones, and 10% for meds and lights.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:51:00 - [42] Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. The brutix can field 5 medium drones, and 7 T2 medium blasters with a dual rep tank. The Myr certainly DOES need more drone space, or I'm never getting out the Brutix.
Pichemanu	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:53:00 - [43] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:51 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:10 Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. u ever used a dominix??????? or a vexor ? or an arbitrator? U know what u are ltalking about ?? if u are not competent of droneship dont post! They have space for a drone replacement. Not considering domi ( wich have a virtualy infinite space for drones... ), vexors and arbitrators have place for 1 wave and half of medium drones. so a ship like mirmidon ( average cost 7x of the vexor ) could not have only 2 waves of medium drones. A ship like that , with this speed and sig radius must have space for heavy drones, not mediums ( wich require 25m3 instrad of 10m3). give him space for 7,5 heavy drones ( as vexor have space for 7,5 medium drones) and i will be happy ( 7,5 x 25m3 == 187,5m3 i asked 200m3 not much difference ad u can see). think before posting ... Really now? It must have? A maller has 5 turrets, shurely a ship like the proph that costs ?x as much should have 12!!! Better yet it should be able to mount 5 tachyons !!11elevtyone!!ohnoestheendisnear!! Give me a break please. Drone ships do not put out the most dmg, they just have huge versatility. BTW i fly droneships, do u? I want a good ship, not an "iwin" button ship! ******* buhuhu... *******
Pichemanu	Posted - 2006.10.26 13:57:00 - [44] Edited by: Pichemanu on 26/10/2006 13:58:18 Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. The brutix can field 5 medium drones, and 7 T2 medium blasters with a dual rep tank. The Myr certainly DOES need more drone space, or I'm never getting out the Brutix. Then don't :) Stick to ur close range ship that dose moderate dmg at distance and be kyted by mymidons with rails and drones that have a bonus on them. Another variant would be that u get capdead by a myrm with 3/4 med nos, am curious what will power those 2 med reps and 7 balsters then. Oh and btw: a vexor can use 5 med drones, and a thorax can use 5 med drones and 5 t2 blasters. PLS have the vexor use 5 heavydrones or i will stick to my rax :))) (edit) Isn't this the same logic? ******* buhuhu... *******
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:00:00 - [45] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:06:41 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:03:21 Originally by: Pichemanu Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:51 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:10 Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. u ever used a dominix??????? or a vexor ? or an arbitrator? U know what u are ltalking about ?? if u are not competent of droneship dont post! They have space for a drone replacement. Not considering domi ( wich have a virtualy infinite space for drones... ), vexors and arbitrators have place for 1 wave and half of medium drones. so a ship like mirmidon ( average cost 7x of the vexor ) could not have only 2 waves of medium drones. A ship like that , with this speed and sig radius must have space for heavy drones, not mediums ( wich require 25m3 instrad of 10m3). give him space for 7,5 heavy drones ( as vexor have space for 7,5 medium drones) and i will be happy ( 7,5 x 25m3 == 187,5m3 i asked 200m3 not much difference ad u can see). think before posting ... Really now? It must have? A maller has 5 turrets, shurely a ship like the proph that costs ?x as much should have 12!!! Better yet it should be able to mount 5 tachyons !!11elevtyone!!ohnoestheendisnear!! Give me a break please. Drone ships do not put out the most dmg, they just have huge versatility. BTW i fly droneships, do u? I want a good ship, not an "iwin" button ship! what a crap of example .. 1) u cannot fit 5 beams in a maller.. u cannot even fit 5 heavy pulses. 2) heavy drone require 250%m3 of a medium but dont make 250% dammage. u cannot aply this to turret number. 3) i'm an ammar pilot as gallente .. i drive all amarr af, hacs and both command ships so dont think u can reduce this discussion in a "anti-amarr" thread. U simply have not a clue of how drones works. thats all. discuss something else u are competent.
Pichemanu	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:10:00 - [46] Edited by: Pichemanu on 26/10/2006 14:10:48 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum what a crap of example .. 1) u cannot fit 5 beams in a maller.. u cannot even fit 5 heavy pulses. 2) heavy drone require 250% of a medium but it's not 250% stronger. u cannot aply this to turret number. 3) i'm an ammar pilot ad a gallente .. i drive all amarr af, hac and both command ships so dont think u can reduce this discussion in a "anti-amarr" thread. U simply have not a clue of how drones works. thats all. I was not trying to reduce it to an "anti-amarr" thread, it was just an example (maybe not the best, i can come up with more :P ). What u fail to see is my point so i will try to bring it across again, more clearly i hope: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BUFFING THE MYRM, JUST LEAVE THE DRONES BAY AS IT IS. GIVE IT A HYBRID BONUS or soemthig. U can't expect a bc to be as good as a bs, just a bit less good that is.. If u want huge cruiser level dmg u use a thorax, if u want cruiser level versatility u use a vexor. If u want huge bc level dmg u use a brutix, if u want bc level versatility u use a myrm. What is so hard to understand? ******* buhuhu... *******
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:19:00 - [47] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:22:19 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:20:28 Originally by: Pichemanu Edited by: Pichemanu on 26/10/2006 14:10:48 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum what a crap of example .. 1) u cannot fit 5 beams in a maller.. u cannot even fit 5 heavy pulses. 2) heavy drone require 250% of a medium but it's not 250% stronger. u cannot aply this to turret number. 3) i'm an ammar pilot ad a gallente .. i drive all amarr af, hac and both command ships so dont think u can reduce this discussion in a "anti-amarr" thread. U simply have not a clue of how drones works. thats all. I was not trying to reduce it to an "anti-amarr" thread, it was just an example (maybe not the best, i can come up with more :P ). What u fail to see is my point so i will try to bring it across again, more clearly i hope: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BUFFING THE MYRM, JUST LEAVE THE DRONES BAY AS IT IS. GIVE IT A HYBRID BONUS or soemthig. U can't expect a bc to be as good as a bs, just a bit less good that is.. If u want huge cruiser level dmg u use a thorax, if u want cruiser level versatility u use a vexor. If u want huge bc level dmg u use a brutix, if u want bc level versatility u use a myrm. What is so hard to understand? again ... 1) give turret bonus mean have another brutix.. why have 2 ships identical? 2) give him ability to use 5 heavy drones dont make him even by far good as a domi. forget this. u seem scared by heavy drones too much , brobably because u have not idea how to counter them . heavy drones are slow, destrustable and simply dont make as much dammage to small ships. and a myrmidon will anyway be dead agaist a BS .. no chance. If u realy are woried about dps, consider that a single heavy drone more in space will not make this ship uber compared to other.. probably will not even reach the minmatar or amar new BC.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:26:00 - [48] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 14:26:42 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum 1) give turret bonus mean have another brutix.. why have 2 ships identical? Because all noncapital Gallente combat craft have a Small/Medium/Large Hybrid Bonus? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:33:00 - [49] Umm I'm not a drone user, so I might get flamed to hell for saying this...but We are talking about BattleCRUISERS, no? I fly a Ferox. And I dont have the slightest chance of fitting battleship sized weapons. Doesnt other BC's use cruiser weapons? Because a battlecruiser as I see it is a normal cruiser with a better tank. The myrmidon have one wave of heavy drones, the same type a battleship uses. Isnt meium drones supposed to be the cruiser sized drone? I dont get it... Now forgive me if I'm being ignorant and stupid Next, about the Caldari BC's The Ferox needs a boost, as almost all the caldari railboats do. I'm not too sure on how to do this though, as I havent used rails much. The Drake needs to rid itself of the resistance bonus. I mean, if we follow a pattern we see that all teh Caldari railboats have resistance bonus, while the missile ships lack it. Now I'm not too sure how to change it, but to give a kinetic missile damage boost will make its dps too high, and a range bonus would remove the major penalty of using asault rockets (I hate the name assault heavies ) So what should the resistance bonus be changed into? I really dont know, what would benefit it without overpowering it? All us Caldari wannabe-drake-pilots need to discuss this -JM
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 14:26:42 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum 1) give turret bonus mean have another brutix.. why have 2 ships identical? Because all noncapital Gallente combat craft have a Small/Medium/Large Hybrid Bonus? Another ***** answer. Nothing personal, realy, but even if what u wrote it's true, gallente are also drone specialist. And even if this should be not true, it's not a good reason to make 2 ships almost identical. As i told above: if there is a ballance problem have plenty of heavies then reduce even more turrets. I dont want a uber ship and i whink no one of us want a second brutix.

Razin	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Pichemanu Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:51 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:33:10 Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. It is a BC not a BS so it should not be able to field the same nr of BS drones as specialised drone BS. Arguments such as "if u shoot it's drones it's crippled" have no point, What happens if u shoot a domis drones? or a vexors? or an arbitrators? The SAME thing, the ship is left crippled. How fast can u shoot down 10 med drones? I don't oppose replacing the rep amount bonus with some sort of hybrid dmg (be it dmg, traking or rof), but this ship really dosn't need more drone space. u ever used a dominix??????? or a vexor ? or an arbitrator? U know what u are ltalking about ?? if u are not competent of droneship dont post! They have space for a drone replacement. Not considering domi ( wich have a virtualy infinite space for drones... ), vexors and arbitrators have place for 1 wave and half of medium drones. so a ship like mirmidon ( average cost 7x of the vexor ) could not have only 2 waves of medium drones. A ship like that , with this speed and sig radius must have space for heavy drones, not mediums ( wich require 25m3 instrad of 10m3). give him space for 7,5 heavy drones ( as vexor have space for 7,5 medium drones) and i will be happy ( 7,5 x 25m3 == 187,5m3 i asked 200m3 not much difference ad u can see). think before posting ... Really now? It must have? A maller has 5 turrets, shurely a ship like the proph that costs ?x as much should have 12!!! Better yet it should be able to mount 5 tachyons !!11elevtyone!!ohnoestheendisnear!! Give me a break please. Drone ships do not put out the most dmg, they just have huge versatility. BTW i fly droneships, do u? I want a good ship, not an "iwin" button ship! Dude, you're making a fool of yourself. Please stop. ...
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:41:00 - [52] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:42:06 Originally by: Jaedar Metron Umm I'm not a drone user, so I might get flamed to hell for saying this...but We are talking about BattleCRUISERS, no? I fly a Ferox. And I dont have the slightest chance of fitting battleship sized weapons. Doesnt other BC's use cruiser weapons? Because a battlecruiser as I see it is a normal cruiser with a better tank. The myrmidon have one wave of heavy drones, the same type a battleship uses. Isnt meium drones supposed to be the cruiser sized drone? I dont get it... Now forgive me if I'm being ignorant and stupid Next, about the Caldari BC's The Ferox needs a boost, as almost all the caldari railboats do. I'm not too sure on how to do this though, as I havent used rails much. The Drake needs to rid itself of the resistance bonus. I mean, if we follow a pattern we see that all teh Caldari railboats have resistance bonus, while the missile ships lack it. Now I'm not too sure how to change it, but to give a kinetic missile damage boost will make its dps too high, and a range bonus would remove the major penalty of using asault rockets (I hate the name assault heavies ) So what should the resistance bonus be changed into? I really dont know, what would benefit it without overpowering it? All us Caldari wannabe-drake-pilots need to discuss this Check on this forum about result of pvp tests ( in sisi ) of the myrmidon. Loose immediatly agaist other tier 2 BC, even if actually can already use 4 heavies. THis as hint, that heavy drones are not BS sized weapons only. increase drone bay will never make it uber because the DPS will raise just a bit ( 20% not considering turrets .. les than 10% if u have blasters), It will barelly reach other BC ( tier 2, not ferox...). hive him even a HUGE drone bay mean just that he can continue to use drones ( releasing new drones once some are death). p.s) i hope i answered your question
Wodin Drukvik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:43:00 - [53] Harbinger: Pretty much spot on with regard to the other Tier 2 BCs. If you fit for gank, your tank suffers fairly significantly. If you tank out, you can still do decent damage, but you can't fit big guns or a damage mod. You have the option of fitting a plate, or fitting dual reps which allows people to exercise their personal preference with regards to style. There's a good "sniper" setup using Heavy Beams. It's an excellent ship. I'd agree with those who suggest its cap might stand being a notch larger but that's really the only thing I'd consider changing. Myrmidon: There are a lot of different combinations, but it's fairly obvious they want to keep people from using 5 heavies. So the most you're going to get is the bay bumped to 120, which would allow for some spares and interesting combinations without giving it 5 heavies. Remember when you're kvetching about DPS that you have to include the 5 turrets - even unbonused that's a fair amount of damage over time. As far as fitting goes, it's somewhat tight, but respectable. Using the ship as a pure nos-boat precludes an injector, but you can create a reasonable injected double-rep tank supplemented by more nos than most others will use. The extra mid allows for a lot of dirty tricks, and a TD or other module(be it a second web to control range, a cap mod for sustainibility or something else) will significantly boost the survivability of the ship.
Akiman	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:44:00 - [54] You said tier 1 can tank better while tier II will damage better but thin tank...read again from the start ccp pls?... Thats not true...ferox is unusable...drake is better at everyway...but pls dont do something bad by modifying ferox u'll just disturb game balance again. About myrmidon i agree with the hoard plus leaving 6th med slot empty will just look amateur. 100m3 isnt enough thtas for sure and like u said myrmidon should out damage brutix.you sign for it.imo ship looks like maulus tho...ring any bells? And couse of bringing tier II matari Bc Tier III bs ingame dont change artilleries.Change ships... i dont know anything bout amarr... ships needs more different abilites... BUT we cant actualy know what is good or not till after nos, ecm ,hit point, ship,wcs,artillery changes in game.
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Jaedar Metron Umm I'm not a drone user, so I might get flamed to hell for saying this...but We are talking about BattleCRUISERS, no? I fly a Ferox. And I dont have the slightest chance of fitting battleship sized weapons. Doesnt other BC's use cruiser weapons? Because a battlecruiser as I see it is a normal cruiser with a better tank. The myrmidon have one wave of heavy drones, the same type a battleship uses. Isnt meium drones supposed to be the cruiser sized drone? I dont get it... Now forgive me if I'm being ignorant and stupid I forgive you. Ishtar is a heavy assault CRUISED and it can field 3 waves of heavy drones. ...
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:46:00 - [56] I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:54:00 - [57] By the way devs, is it the completely wrong place to ask for two more turrets on the Ferox? It really needs it. - What am I listening to?
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:00:00 - [58] Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete.
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:02:00 - [59] Just to add my voice to those who argue for a Myr drone bay size increase: With the increase in overall HP the fights will become longer and give more time and reason to kill of the drones first on a ship whose drone DPS is primary. I'm afraid that the HP increase may even cause arguments for a revision of other drone ship bay sizes. Myrmidon needs around 200 m3 drone bay. This will only marginally increase its DPS but give it battlefield longevity approaching that of turret ships. ...
Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:12:00 - [60] myr fix that makes sence drop drone damage bonus. Lower the base drone bay to 50. replace the bonus we too off for EOS drone bay bonus of +50 Drone bay Per level. (so ether 2 clips of heavys or 2 heavys and a couple clips of lights depending on BC 5 or 4) what this does: you do LESS Dps with drones but they are more flexable. also with the HP boost I'm not likeing the balance between reping damage and just plating now I look at the math and I just don't like it it takes quite a bit of time in a fight to rep the HP a 1600mm plate provides now, maybe a solution to this would be to change rep bonus and boost bonus on shield ships to give people even the option at passive tanking is make that bonus also apply to Plates and Shield Extenders

Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:15:00 - [61] Edited by: Jaedar Metron on 26/10/2006 15:17:40 Originally by: Karen Dark Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete. Keeping the Drake as it is will overpower it. I'm Caldari, I cant fly a bs yet, and I have no skillpoints in guns. I look forward to the drake extremely much, but to give it the rsist bonus only the railboats should have is wrong. The Ferox needs two more rails as an above poster noted (the other railboats need more rails as well, but maybe not 2. Dunno about t2 ships)and the drake needs to change its resistance bonus into something else (velocity is the best option so far, but as I said before, this would give it a bit better range on those heavy rockets, which is bad). When these two things is fixed they would be pretty balanced with eachother(and the rest of the tier 1's) :) uh... this is IMO :P -JM
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:16:00 - [62] I think people are over reacting with the drake. The main problem is the ships most people are comparing the drake to. The ferox and the nighthawk, two relatively crappy ships. The ferox is a gunboat and everyone uses it as a missleboat. imo, the ferox is quite weak compared to other BCs and to other gunboats. Removing its missle abilities and giving it 1-2 more turrets is what this ship badly needs. The nighthawk is the other ship I see it getting compared to by many. You HARDLY see people fly this ship now, and there is a good reason for that. It's been awhile since I looked up the stats and did calculations, but CURRENTLY(not kali patach) the nighthawk is 90% of the damage of the caldari HAC. The other races' CSs are like 150% of the damage of their respected HAC ship. Although the nighthawk will be getting a boost, I believe it is still the lowest dps CS of the 4 races. Furthermore, the drake does not outdamage the nighthawk and the nighthawk is a MUCH better tank than the drake.
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:21:00 - [63] Originally by: Karen Dark Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete. Actually, from what I've read, Tux said it was a typo that the bonus wasn't included. Personally, I'd prefer he leave it off and keep the Tier 2 BC's the way they are atm.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:22:00 - [64] Darpz, that would fix absolutely nothing. The Myrmidon is already behind in damage, it is arguable whether it's current damage level is appropriate or not. Your suggestion would have it's drone damage cut by 16.7% when using large drones and 33.3% when using small or medium drones. This is a step in exactly the wrong direction, not to mention a way too high price to pay for versatility. - What am I listening to?
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:22:00 - [65] Edited by: Jason Marshall on 26/10/2006 15:22:46 Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. Its a dedicated drone boat, it shouldnt have a turret bonus. I think it should have atleast a 175m3 drone bay. Its tank is fine. Who would use turrets on this thing? i see it has a NOS boat. It takes the most damage, and yet it dosnt deal enoguh, 5 medium drones arent gunna hold up long, there is no lasting power. You get one inty around and your day is ruined. edit - accidently typedi na quote box Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:24:00 - [66] Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight The nighthawk is the other ship I see it getting compared to by many. You HARDLY see people fly this ship now, and there is a good reason for that. It's been awhile since I looked up the stats and did calculations, but CURRENTLY(not kali patach) <snip> Discuss Kali patch stats, please, nothing else. - What am I listening to?
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:28:00 - [67] I'd agree that the devs had intended the Ferox to be a turret-based ship to begin with. That is where its bonuses lie, and that's currently where you can get the most DPS for the ship on Tranquility. I agree that it might need another turret slot or two, but if the devs would just leave the gang warfare bonus off of the Tier 2 battlecruisers, it would make the Tier 1 BC's very, very attractive in the new command heirarchy that gangs are being transformed into. If for bonuses from a commandship/Tier 1 BC are applied to simply the individual squadrons, rather than to a Wing or Fleet, they will still be in high, if not higher, demand.
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:28:00 - [68] Another possible solution would be moving one high slot to a low slot. Make it able to tank while the low-dps med drones kill the target.
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:28:00 - [69] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. 'Same DPS as Dominix'. Really, Mr Exclamation Mark. What insight you have. My mistake, it should have been "Same drone DPS as a Dominix". And by the way, just because you got slapped about in the corporations and alliances forums doesn't mean you can act like a ***** in the other forums. _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:32:00 - [70] A minor pointer: the core concept of battlecruisers is to use gang warfare modules. It's a class bonus, not a ship bonus. - What am I listening to?

Sirana Telor	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:39:00 - [71] Drones have several disadvantages: -Destructible -Cost -Delayed damage (need to fly to target first) and a few advantages: -Don't take up turrent space (tho in the Myr with only 5 turrets max comapred to 7-8 on all other tier 2 BCs that isn't really the case) -Don't take up fitting (tho it is accounted for when ships are designed, so it's relative - Hurricane has same CPU and 300 more grid for instance) -Can act independantly to a degree (this is also a curse sometimes) -Don't use cap (but then neither do arties or missiles) Now for the disadvantages to be balanced with the advantages... espeically with the destructible part! they need to do a sigificant amount of damage, personally I used to think it should raise the DPS above that of a pure turret ship. With the new different kinds of drones (ECM, Webbing), it adds more options so that may not be the case as much anymore. However since drone ships get NO bonuses to the new kinds of drones they are worse off when using them relative to other ships (since the bonus isn't a drones control bonus anymore). The destructible part makes a pure drones boat (remember, less turrets and no damage bonus) like the Myr very, very vulnerable unlike any other BC. There needs to be a balanced tradeoff for this vulnerability. Currently there is none. So to make the ship balanced there are a few options: 1. Give a doubling it's drone bonuses (including damage) 2. Keep the damage the same but increase the drone HP bonus to 3-5x the current amount (or 5-10x?) meaning the drones aren't nearly as vulnerable and it's more likely that opponents attack the ship instead of the drones 3. Double it's current drone bay to reduce the vulnerability, tho that still leaves it somewhat weak 4. Make it a mixed EW/Drone boat (change the second bonus) and increase the drone capacity less. I have little experience with SD tho, so I'm not sure how good that would really be. Anyway, right now it's the weakest BC out there and almost useless once the drones have been destroyed. Without drones a Vex with it's +25% damage bonus can hit just as hard as the Myr, while it has a smaller sig radius, is faster and a LOT cheaper...
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.26 15:42:00 - [72] Originally by: Sirana Telor Drones have several disadvantages: -Destructible -Cost -Delayed damage (need to fly to target first) and a few advantages: -Don't take up turrent space (tho in the Myr with only 5 turrets max comapred to 7-8 on all other tier 2 BCs that isn't really the case) -Don't take up fitting (tho it is accounted for when ships are designed, so it's relative - Hurricane has same CPU and 300 more grid for instance) -Can act independantly to a degree (this is also a curse sometimes) -Don't use cap (but then neither do arties or missiles) Now for the disadvantages to be balanced with the advantages... espeically with the destructible part! they need to do a sigificant amount of damage, personally I used to think it should raise the DPS above that of a pure turret ship. With the new different kinds of drones (ECM, Webbing), it adds more options so that may not be the case as much anymore. However since drone ships get NO bonuses to the new kinds of drones they are worse off when using them relative to other ships (since the bonus isn't a drones control bonus anymore). The destructible part makes a pure drones boat (remember, less turrets and no damage bonus) like the Myr very, very vulnerable unlike any other BC. There needs to be a balanced tradeoff for this vulnerability. Currently there is none. So to make the ship balanced there are a few options: 1. Give a doubling it's drone bonuses (including damage) 2. Keep the damage the same but increase the drone HP bonus to 3-5x the current amount (or 5-10x?) meaning the drones aren't nearly as vulnerable and it's more likely that opponents attack the ship instead of the drones 3. Double it's current drone bay to reduce the vulnerability, tho that still leaves it somewhat weak 4. Make it a mixed EW/Drone boat (change the second bonus) and increase the drone capacity less. I have little experience with SD tho, so I'm not sure how good that would really be. Anyway, right now it's the weakest BC out there and almost useless once the drones have been destroyed. Without drones a Vex with it's +25% damage bonus can hit just as hard as the Myr, while it has a smaller sig radius, is faster and a LOT cheaper... Right now witht the cost of Hammerhead II flyin a Myr and replacing destroyed drones would ve VERY expensive.
Firequill Gallente The Black Ops Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:03:00 - [73] Edited by: Firequill on 26/10/2006 16:05:22 Myrmidon: I dont agree to extending the dronebay. how about changing the drone bonus like this: "15%/20% to Scout drone damage and hitpoints per level" scout drones are still medium and light drones, right? wouldnt that bring 5 mediums to par with dps of 4 heavies and still give room for an extra flight? oh, and a 6th turret.. the model looks borked without it
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:11:00 - [74] Originally by: Firequill Edited by: Firequill on 26/10/2006 16:05:22 Myrmidon: I dont agree to extending the dronebay. how about changing the drone bonus like this: "15%/20% to Scout drone damage and hitpoints per level" scout drones are still medium and light drones, right? wouldnt that bring 5 mediums to par with dps of 4 heavies and still give room for an extra flight? oh, and a 6th turret.. the model looks borked without it Nope, it brings a full flight of medium drones 16.7% short of being on par with 4 heavy drones with a damage bonus. Seriously, messing around with drones in THAT way won't solve anything at all. It's not like it does a whopping lot of damage right now. It's all about psychology, I guess. They should nuke the word "heavy" from drones, it's not like they are worthy battleship weapons on their own. - What am I listening to?
Lydia Browm Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:16:00 - [75] OK simple, give it something in the region of 200m3 drone bay simply 1 Wave Heavy 1wave medium 1 wave small Any problems with that?? But wait medium drones completly anhilate things and stuff and with heavies you'll be doing the same damage as the Domi, NO NO NO NO domi has blasters use them. This ship has not the bonus to use the Blasters so either boost the current drone bonus to make it a drone boat or change the bonuses to 10% drone damage and survivability and give it anotehr bonus :) +25m3 drone bay [er level reduce its turrets to 0 give it more PG and make some nice drone dmage mods for the highs A lil bit wackey either keep the current bonuses and then make a mod that increase the survivability and / or damage of drones. ___________________________________________ Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty...
Sandzibarr A.W.M	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:24:00 - [76] Edited by: Sandzibarr on 26/10/2006 16:32:21 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Firequill Edited by: Firequill on 26/10/2006 16:05:22 Myrmidon: I dont agree to extending the dronebay. how about changing the drone bonus like this: "15%/20% to Scout drone damage and hitpoints per level" scout drones are still medium and light drones, right? wouldnt that bring 5 mediums to par with dps of 4 heavies and still give room for an extra flight? oh, and a 6th turret.. the model looks borked without it Nope, it brings a full flight of medium drones 16.7% short of being on par with 4 heavy drones with a damage bonus. Seriously, messing around with drones in THAT way won't solve anything at all. It's not like it does a whopping lot of damage right now. It's all about psychology, I guess. They should nuke the word "heavy" from drones, it's not like they are worthy battleship weapons on their own. Dunno.. has some merit. So max on 4 ogre2's is 380.6 dps. (with BC5) max on 5 hammer2's is 237.6 dps. if you did the 20% thing on meds/lights only - and gave it a 150m bay - youd get.. 316.8 dps for the 5 hammers - 3 waves 316.8 dps for the 5 ogres - 1 spare. not sure how it compares to the dps on other Tier2 BCs once you factor in the 5 turrets - but it gives it more lastabilty drone wise. what sort of overall dps we shooting for to keep the new tier2's in balance?
Kodiak31415 Imperial Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:27:00 - [77] What I've come up with so far is: The harbringer is awseome and ammar needed some love, no problem there. The hurricane is pretty good and will be a nice addition to the game. The drake is totally overpowered, can outank and outdps most, if not all, other BC's at the same time. The Myrmidon (in its current config) is never going to get used. If you want a big drone boat the domi is only like 15 mill more and has 3x+ the dronebay. The Vexor can do almost the same DPS as the myrmidon and costs much less. If ccp auctually wants anyone to use this ship it needs to be changed. I agree that 5 heavies would be overpowered so why not give a bonus to scouts only, or make the abality to reload your drone bay once a drone gets popped? When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong.
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:36:00 - [78] As far as the Drake goes I love the ship. Now to be honest and fair I can see dropping the resist bonus. It only makes sense. Now people are worried that giving it a missile damage bonus would give it crazy dps and that a missile velocity bonus would give thos HAM's crazy range. So I suggest giving it a MWD bonus. Maybe like 5% speed and 10% less cap use per lv or something like that. That way it at least has a chance. I mean heck with the range of the HAM's and the speed of 130 or 160 (I cant remember off the top of my head)without some serious webbing it will never get within range of anything. So it wont really matter how much DPS it can do or how fast it can fire. Remember this is just my opinion and a suggestion and thats what this forum is for.
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:38:00 - [79] Edited by: Blind Man on 26/10/2006 16:41:44 I'm just mad I spent a month training command ships 5 only to be flying *** t1 ships and also its pretty silly that the absolution and prophecy have the same HP? and harbinger has more hp than absolution? It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:45:00 - [80] Originally by: Kodiak31415 What I've come up with so far is: The harbringer is awseome and ammar needed some love, no problem there. The hurricane is pretty good and will be a nice addition to the game. The drake is totally overpowered, can outank and outdps most, if not all, other BC's at the same time. The Myrmidon (in its current config) is never going to get used. If you want a big drone boat the domi is only like 15 mill more and has 3x+ the dronebay. The Vexor can do almost the same DPS as the myrmidon and costs much less. If ccp auctually wants anyone to use this ship it needs to be changed. I agree that 5 heavies would be overpowered so why not give a bonus to scouts only, or make the abality to reload your drone bay once a drone gets popped? When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong. have you looked @ the other bc, they are nuts. They excel in everything they do. Superfast hard hitting or allways hitting high dps or heavy tankability+gank... A BC that will cost 40 mil and cant even field 1 wave of heavy drones is pathetic. I spend a mere 15 mil extra and get a bs that can field 3X heavy drones + far more nossing/tank power. This ship is screaming shoot my drones, shoot them please. What really saddens me is the fast that a mere vexor (4.8 mil vessel) can do the same dps as a ship that should be its bigger brother. If you want more tank for a small price go dominix and if you want same dps and spend 85% less, take a vexor... It all bowls down to 1 thing: Is it worth to you to have nearly the same dps as a 4.8 mil ship and have a 25m3 more dronebay for 36.2 mil extra? I dont think so. that said im gallente/minmatar specced and maxed out in bc skill. Im sure gonna be making sweet love to that mini bc Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________

Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:51:00 - [81] Originally by: madaluap If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay! Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc. It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. yes it is and oh quit it, every one knows that our ships (Gallente) rule!
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:55:00 - [82] Edited by: madaluap on 26/10/2006 16:55:20 Originally by: Galea Scorpii Originally by: madaluap If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay! Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc. It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. yes it is and oh quit it, every one knows that our ships (Gallente) rule! O realleh? There is no reason for gallente bc to have such a ****ty dronebay, thats basically all there is to say about it. There is no reason to realise a crap bc, just because "we" rule, i know gallente is FOTM atm, but i still know the times that my megathron died instantcapdeath, did less dps than a armageddon and could only be used for sniping. Im here to make this will never happens again Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Old Geeza Originally by: Butter Dog The Myrm needs a larger drone bay. With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS. 25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty. Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective. I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it. Oh but the Drake does need it's med and low slots. Shield tanking to make up for no shield res and any chance to resist/or be used as a pvp ship. Low slot? come on Caldari really suck in these anyway, take one and you might as well scrap the ship cause you wont be able to fit anything or sustain your defenses.. Keep it the same!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 16:58:00 - [84] Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei Edited by: Kapitanleutnant Mei on 26/10/2006 12:20:01 my suggestion is simple GANK not TANK DRAKE: replace 5% shield resist bonus with 10% missile velocity- this make it even more of a killing machine but a lot more vulnerable. It also makes sense for consitencies's sake and don't raise its dps any further which is important Myrmidon: (I'm less certain about these so they may suck) replace 10% drone damage bonus with +10M3 of drone bay per skill level - it can now use your 5 heavies but is more vulnerable replace armour rep bonus with 5% med hybrid damage per level, again this makes it more deadly but as we've removed the drone hitpoint damage bonus this helps offset that by ensuring its not totally fubared if it has to bring out its lights. I don't fly ammarr or minnie but from what i;ve seen they seem to work very well- the Ammarr one could possibly do with like 25 more grid just to ease its fitting but that's about it, the minnie one looks pure sex Shield resist is Caldari specific ship bonus, taking it away is like taking Gallente drone space or Damage for Amarr and Mimnmatar! Keep Caldari setup the same!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:02:00 - [85] Originally by: SexySexy Myrmidon : i wish +1 drone control per level Why not +5 while you're at it?
Iyanna Swift	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:04:00 - [86] My suggestion for the gallente tier 2 BC: 125 m3 drone bay Drone HP and damage bonus Armor rep bonus This gives the option for a full set of heavies for those who want DPS, but only with nothing else. It also allows 2 sets of meds and a set of lights, the waves of mediums with HP and damage bonuses last longer and are more effective, the lights could be backup or EW/logistics drones. Do not add a turret bonus, I've never though BCs should have amazing DPS (despite the BC description) and should be considered support craft. No turret bonus encourages gang mod highs and more creative use of high slots.... in a support way. Keeping the armor rep bonus makes up for the lack of offencive capability, letting it tank some but only to keep the support going. The brutix already excels with turrets, I think a more support oriented BC such as this could be great in small-med gang warefare, but makes it less useful in solo settings; something which the brutix is already good at.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:04:00 - [87] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:45 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:05 Also here a myrmidon consideration: As it is now sucks because it should be a drone ship but with this drone bay everyone will immediatly shot at his drones instead the ship living him unable to make damage ( ergo: is death). A drone ship MUST have a great replacement of drenes. COnsider that it's whe only weapon that can be popped in game .. all turret/missile users have still theys weapon ( ergo: dammage capability ) until ship pop. Drone ships are he only that risk to loose theyr weapons. I will not make maths, board is plenty of them, i will only keep clear that a drone ship must have many replacemnt, execially if ship hitpoints will be boosted ( longer battles == more time to kill drones ). If ( and i repeat "if" because i'm not convinced ) 5 heavy drones scary so much, ballance this ship reducing number of turrets. but have only 4 heavies it's ridicolous ... a drake will pop all drones in 15 secs ( 7 heavy lancher and a rof bonus? it's a "drone-popping fest" )and then the mirmidon id powerless. im stil convinced that the best loadout for this ship is: hi: 6, 4 turrets ( -2 hi slots, -1 turret ) med: 5 low: 6 ( +1 low slot) drone bay: 200m3 bonus 1: drone hitpoint & dammage bonus 2: armour rep bonus Drones only weapon/defense? Sure, same as ECM for the Scorpion, however I don't see another Med slot added to it, now do I ? How about making drone lock chance based to equal things a bit ???
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:06:00 - [88] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:45 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 13:02:05 Also here a myrmidon consideration: As it is now sucks because it should be a drone ship but with this drone bay everyone will immediatly shot at his drones instead the ship living him unable to make damage ( ergo: is death). A drone ship MUST have a great replacement of drenes. COnsider that it's whe only weapon that can be popped in game .. all turret/missile users have still theys weapon ( ergo: dammage capability ) until ship pop. Drone ships are he only that risk to loose theyr weapons. I will not make maths, board is plenty of them, i will only keep clear that a drone ship must have many replacemnt, execially if ship hitpoints will be boosted ( longer battles == more time to kill drones ). If ( and i repeat "if" because i'm not convinced ) 5 heavy drones scary so much, ballance this ship reducing number of turrets. but have only 4 heavies it's ridicolous ... a drake will pop all drones in 15 secs ( 7 heavy lancher and a rof bonus? it's a "drone-popping fest" )and then the mirmidon id powerless. im stil convinced that the best loadout for this ship is: hi: 6, 4 turrets ( -2 hi slots, -1 turret ) med: 5 low: 6 ( +1 low slot) drone bay: 200m3 bonus 1: drone hitpoint & dammage bonus 2: armour rep bonus A Drake will pop the drones in 15 sec... hahhaha.. do you realize how much is 15 seconds in PvP? in these 15 seconds, the Drake could be NOSed and blastered to death, not to mention the constant supply of med drones that the Myrm. pilot can provide! period!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:08:00 - [89] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. 5 medium drones and 5 guns with no dmg bonus are BEYOND PATHETIC for a BC. Is that you cannot pilot one properly? and you get 10 med drones.
Elara Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:13:00 - [90] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:22:19 Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 26/10/2006 14:20:28 Originally by: Pichemanu Edited by: Pichemanu on 26/10/2006 14:10:48 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum what a crap of example .. 1) u cannot fit 5 beams in a maller.. u cannot even fit 5 heavy pulses. 2) heavy drone require 250% of a medium but it's not 250% stronger. u cannot aply this to turret number. 3) i'm an ammar pilot ad a gallente .. i drive all amarr af, hac and both command ships so dont think u can reduce this discussion in a "anti-amarr" thread. U simply have not a clue of how drones works. thats all. I was not trying to reduce it to an "anti-amarr" thread, it was just an example (maybe not the best, i can come up with more :P ). What u fail to see is my point so i will try to bring it across again, more clearly i hope: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BUFFING THE MYRM, JUST LEAVE THE DRONES BAY AS IT IS. GIVE IT A HYBRID BONUS or soemthig. U can't expect a bc to be as good as a bs, just a bit less good that is.. If u want huge cruiser level dmg u use a thorax, if u want cruiser level versatility u use a vexor. If u want huge bc level dmg u use a brutix, if u want bc level versatility u use a myrm. What is so hard to understand? again ... 1) give turret bonus mean have another brutix.. why have 2 ships identical? 2) give him ability to use 5 heavy drones dont make him even by far good as a domi. forget this. u seem scared by heavy drones too much , brobably because u have not idea how to counter them . heavy drones are slow, destrustable and simply dont make as much dammage to small ships. and a myrmidon will anyway be dead agaist a BS .. no chance. If u realy are woried about dps, consider that a single heavy drone more in space will not make this ship uber compared to other.. probably will not even reach the minmatar or amar new BC. the problem hun, is that noone will use the T2 heavy drones as opposed to T2 meds just to have a constant supply of drones. Hence you don't need more drone space!

Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:16:00 - [91] Originally by: Jaedar Metron Umm I'm not a drone user, so I might get flamed to hell for saying this...but We are talking about BattleCRUISERS, no? I fly a Ferox. And I dont have the slightest chance of fitting battleship sized weapons. Doesnt other BC's use cruiser weapons? Because a battlecruiser as I see it is a normal cruiser with a better tank. The myrmidon have one wave of heavy drones, the same type a battleship uses. Isnt meium drones supposed to be the cruiser sized drone? I dont get it... Now forgive me if I'm being ignorant and stupid Next, about the Caldari BC's The Ferox needs a boost, as almost all the caldari railboats do. I'm not too sure on how to do this though, as I havent used rails much. The Drake needs to rid itself of the resistance bonus. I mean, if we follow a pattern we see that all teh Caldari railboats have resistance bonus, while the missile ships lack it. Now I'm not too sure how to change it, but to give a kinetic missile damage boost will make its dps too high, and a range bonus would remove the major penalty of using asault rockets (I hate the name assault heavies ) So what should the resistance bonus be changed into? I really dont know, what would benefit it without overpowering it? All us Caldari wannabe-drake-pilots need to discuss this The 5% shield res is needed in the Drake, look at the stats and realize that. If you want to fly a ferox, go ahead! Here! CCP isn't trying to make the other class obsolete.
Sathrai Unlimited Blade Works	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:20:00 - [92] Swap the armour repair bonus on the Myrmidon for a drone bay size bonus (really, anything from +5m3 to +25m3 per level would be good), and switch out the shield resist bonus on the Drake for a missile/explosion velocity bonus. I kinda like the idea of the explosion velocity bonus, myself - it's different from your usual Caldari missile boat, and it keeps the Drake as more of an in-close brawler as opposed to a classically Caldari standoff ship. The Harbringer and the Hurricane seem to be just about right, and are really excellent pieces of design work in both looks and performance.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:21:00 - [93] Originally by: Kodiak31415 What I've come up with so far is: The harbringer is awseome and ammar needed some love, no problem there. The hurricane is pretty good and will be a nice addition to the game. The drake is totally overpowered, can outank and outdps most, if not all, other BC's at the same time. The Myrmidon (in its current config) is never going to get used. If you want a big drone boat the domi is only like 15 mill more and has 3x+ the dronebay. The Vexor can do almost the same DPS as the myrmidon and costs much less. If ccp auctually wants anyone to use this ship it needs to be changed. I agree that 5 heavies would be overpowered so why not give a bonus to scouts only, or make the abality to reload your drone bay once a drone gets popped? When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong. Another alt aimed at FLAMING Caldari. Isn't anyone here see the USUAL GALLENTE WHINE of OOOHH GIVE ME MORE DRONE SPACE, F*** UP ALL OTHER SHIPS! Geez... this is crap, I hope the people at CCP acutally ignore such obvious and blatant WHINE fests!!! Next thing who knows the new BC for Gallente will have drone space as the Dominix with the damage and count drone bonuses to 15-20%.. Quote: "When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong..." Answer: Pot in very high quantities is bad for you! Stop while you have something left in your head that you can use, or is it too late!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:24:00 - [94] Originally by: Jaedar Metron Edited by: Jaedar Metron on 26/10/2006 15:17:40 Originally by: Karen Dark Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete. Keeping the Drake as it is will overpower it. I'm Caldari, I cant fly a bs yet, and I have no skillpoints in guns. I look forward to the drake extremely much, but to give it the rsist bonus only the railboats should have is wrong. The Ferox needs two more rails as an above poster noted (the other railboats need more rails as well, but maybe not 2. Dunno about t2 ships)and the drake needs to change its resistance bonus into something else (velocity is the best option so far, but as I said before, this would give it a bit better range on those heavy rockets, which is bad). When these two things is fixed they would be pretty balanced with eachother(and the rest of the tier 1's) :) uh... this is IMO :P You want more rails? more guns? there are "only" 3 other races where you can swim in guns.. hey lets make Caldari all gunnery too.. who needs variety! Get to a BS class and fly the Rokh, there is your solution! or buy an Eagle.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:28:00 - [95] Originally by: Karen Dark As far as the Drake goes I love the ship. Now to be honest and fair I can see dropping the resist bonus. It only makes sense. Now people are worried that giving it a missile damage bonus would give it crazy dps and that a missile velocity bonus would give thos HAM's crazy range. So I suggest giving it a MWD bonus. Maybe like 5% speed and 10% less cap use per lv or something like that. That way it at least has a chance. I mean heck with the range of the HAM's and the speed of 130 or 160 (I cant remember off the top of my head)without some serious webbing it will never get within range of anything. So it wont really matter how much DPS it can do or how fast it can fire. Remember this is just my opinion and a suggestion and thats what this forum is for. A MWD on a misile ship? You apparently can't fly one. Drop resistances for a MWD.. lol, anyone who ACTUALLY fly caldari see any problem ?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:34:00 - [96] Originally by: Old Geeza Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. How about you use yours and tell me how 5 heavy + 5 med hybrids with no damage bonus equals the DPS of 5 heavy drone + 6 large hybrid with +5% per level damage bonus, eh? The Myrmidon is gimped at the moment, with only 4 heavies and no gun damage bonus, it's below the dps of the other tier2 bcs, not to mention that it's ridiculously easy to kill the drones with Kali longer combat times => even that firepower is removed. It needs enough drone bay to field 5 heavies and carry a few spares.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:39:00 - [97] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Pichemanu The myrm dose not need bigger drone bay!!! It can carry 10 meds which is more then enough. 5 medium drones and 5 guns with no dmg bonus are BEYOND PATHETIC for a BC. Exactly. The Myrmidon needs to use heavies to even approach the dps of the other tier2 battlecruisers.
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:45:00 - [98] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Karen Dark As far as the Drake goes I love the ship. Now to be honest and fair I can see dropping the resist bonus. It only makes sense. Now people are worried that giving it a missile damage bonus would give it crazy dps and that a missile velocity bonus would give thos HAM's crazy range. So I suggest giving it a MWD bonus. Maybe like 5% speed and 10% less cap use per lv or something like that. That way it at least has a chance. I mean heck with the range of the HAM's and the speed of 130 or 160 (I cant remember off the top of my head)without some serious webbing it will never get within range of anything. So it wont really matter how much DPS it can do or how fast it can fire. Remember this is just my opinion and a suggestion and thats what this forum is for. A MWD on a misile ship? You apparently can't fly one. Drop resistances for a MWD.. lol, anyone who ACTUALLY fly caldari see any problem ? First yes i fly Caldari and almost nothing else. Second why not put a MWD on a missile ship? So a MWD gives you a big sig it doesnt matter what weapons you are useing. The heavy assault missiles have fight time of 2 seconds base. Heck all someone has to do is orbit you at 10-11ks and wear you down cause you wont catch them and you wont be able to run cuz they will have scramed you to death. Once agin this was an IDEA nothing more.Thanks for being a asshat and contributing nothing useful to this thread.
Majickthise	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:46:00 - [99] 6/6/5 layout - 6 turrets 200m drone bay and 5% damp effectiveness per BC level flame away
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Old Geeza My mistake, it should have been "Same drone DPS as a Dominix". And by the way, just because you got slapped about in the corporations and alliances forums doesn't mean you can act like a ***** in the other forums. And why exactly would the same drone DPS be a problem, when the Domi can have 6 large blasters with a nice damage bonus to call upon? Regarding 'slapped about'... its always good fun being smacked by BoB when you have spoiled their circle jerk with some reasoned arguements. Judging from the quality of your own posts on here, I will assume you are one of their alts.

Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:50:00 - [101] Just so it's clear, if drones are out of the picture the Hurricane and the Harbringer both out-damage a Drake. Just using the raw numbers from the game, I was getting about 200 DPS from the Drake using T1 heavy assault launchers, while getting 300 DPS with both the harbringer and hurricane using their racial-specific T1 guns as well. Adding drones into the picture might skew it, but just using the fitted weapons that the ships are geared for, the other two ships outdamage a Drake. So, please, stop saying that the Drake does massive amounts more than the others.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.26 17:59:00 - [102] Edited by: Butter Dog on 26/10/2006 17:59:45 Originally by: Pichemanu Then don't :) Stick to ur close range ship that dose moderate dmg at distance and be kyted by mymidons with rails and drones that have a bonus on them. Another variant would be that u get capdead by a myrm with 3/4 med nos, am curious what will power those 2 med reps and 7 balsters then. Oh and btw: a vexor can use 5 med drones, and a thorax can use 5 med drones and 5 t2 blasters. PLS have the vexor use 5 heavydrones or i will stick to my rax :))) (edit) Isn't this the same logic? Regarding Mrymidon V Brutix... A blaster Brutix with 5 medium drones does not do 'moderate damage'. It kicks out fantastic damage, over 700 DPS in fact, more than any other battlecruiser and indeed many battleships. Also, exactly what threat will a rail ship be? If its too far out, I warp away, if its close, I would MWD up to him, and crush him. There is no way a competent blaster Brutix pilot would lose to a Myrm as it currently is. The drones would die in seconds, and the Myrm shortly afterwards. Nos won't make any difference, as if you fit Nos and rely on drones, well once the drones are gone and your DPS is zero, what are you going to do? The Brutix will cap inject, and a few seconds of 700 DPS later the salvage ship will be poking at your wreckage. Thats why you need a second wave of drones.
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:48:00 - [103] Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 18:48:01 Hell, without a turret damage bonus, I don't think asking for a 3rd wave would be out of line. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:49:00 - [104] Originally by: Calculon Just so it's clear, if drones are out of the picture the Hurricane and the Harbringer both out-damage a Drake. Just using the raw numbers from the game, I was getting about 200 DPS from the Drake using T1 heavy assault launchers, while getting 300 DPS with both the harbringer and hurricane using their racial-specific T1 guns as well. Adding drones into the picture might skew it, but just using the fitted weapons that the ships are geared for, the other two ships outdamage a Drake. So, please, stop saying that the Drake does massive amounts more than the others. 200 dps is about what i got in the Drake using 2 T2 BCU and "arby" heavy launchers and a damage rig.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:01:00 - [105] You must be doing something wrong then, it tops out at about 400-450 with heavies. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Karen Dark	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:15:00 - [106] Originally by: keepiru You must be doing something wrong then, it tops out at about 400-450 with heavies. Well I was shooting frigs so that might of been it
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:20:00 - [107] Originally by: Karen Dark A MWD on a misile ship? You apparently can't fly one. Drop resistances for a MWD.. lol, anyone who ACTUALLY fly caldari see any problem ? First yes i fly Caldari and almost nothing else. Second why not put a MWD on a missile ship? So a MWD gives you a big sig it doesnt matter what weapons you are useing. The heavy assault missiles have fight time of 2 seconds base. Heck all someone has to do is orbit you at 10-11ks and wear you down cause you wont catch them and you wont be able to run cuz they will have scramed you to death. Once agin this was an IDEA nothing more.Thanks for being a asshat and contributing nothing useful to this thread. Karen, if you're refering to standard misiles I believe the base is approx. 35km of range, and in a smaller ship that you usually have standards fitted, range isn't so much of a problem. As for the BC class, it uses exclusively Heavy Misiles, which with skills and all are good to at least 60+ km not to mention up to 70-80km. So I really think this idea on your end is a bad one, and it will not have any implications in the game. It certainly has very limited application on a caldari ship anyway. MWD is used primarily on a short ranged high damage ships to get quickly to target. Caldari doesn't have 1 ship that is good at that, especially not their misile based BC! 5% resistance is a much more viable bonus and one that can be of use!
Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:22:00 - [108] Originally by: Calculon Just so it's clear, if drones are out of the picture the Hurricane and the Harbringer both out-damage a Drake. Just using the raw numbers from the game, I was getting about 200 DPS from the Drake using T1 heavy assault launchers, while getting 300 DPS with both the harbringer and hurricane using their racial-specific T1 guns as well. Adding drones into the picture might skew it, but just using the fitted weapons that the ships are geared for, the other two ships outdamage a Drake. So, please, stop saying that the Drake does massive amounts more than the others. Exactly, the ship is if anything good as is! people just feel more comfortable putting down other race's ship, in this case Caldari!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:23:00 - [109] Originally by: Centurin Edited by: Centurin on 26/10/2006 18:48:01 Hell, without a turret damage bonus, I don't think asking for a 3rd wave would be out of line. How bout a Tsunami of Drones.. that would suit everyone's taste, now wouldn't it.. lol
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:36:00 - [110] Originally by: keepiru You must be doing something wrong then, it tops out at about 400-450 with heavies. Keepiru, I was using the raw DPS from the missiles and launchers while fitted with two BCU II's. The damage from the heavy assault missiles was in the low 200's, not anywhere near 400-450, although I clearly stated that I wasn't factoring drones into the equation either. As it stands, a Hurricane and a Harbringer both out DPS the Drake by about 100dps using the same number of damage mods and using T1 guns/launchers and removing drones from the equation.

Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:40:00 - [111] Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:45:00 - [112] Originally by: Centurin Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. Dude, my freaking Battleship, the oh so powerful according to the Gallente Raven can fit only 3 Heavies. You want to have 5+ in your BC? Gun bonuses or not, come on!
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:49:00 - [113] Believe it or not, Gun bonuses make all the difference. If I can do as much damage in my Vexor as the Myrmidon, something is wrong. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:50:00 - [114] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Jaedar Metron Edited by: Jaedar Metron on 26/10/2006 15:17:40 Originally by: Karen Dark Originally by: Calculon I personally prefer the Drake the way it currently is, with the shield resistance bonus and the missile RoF. It's the first battlecruiser that I've honestly enjoyed to fly, coming from a very "BC's are kinda crappy" past. The Hurricane has to take top honors as my new favorite ship in the game, though, and this from a guy who can fly almost every ship out there. Properly fitted, this is very much a poor man's Vagabond, something that has been a long time coming. Haven't flown the Harbringer or Myrmidon too extensively, so I won't comment on those. Frankly, the people who are comparing the Tier 2 BC's and the Command Ships really need to look at the proper picture. YES, the Hurricane can outdamage a Sleipnir if the Sleipnir pilot doesn't have Command Ship 5. The Sleipnir, at the same time, has a massively better tank, better resists, etc... So yes, the Hurricane matches the Sleipnir in ONE area of the ship's functions, while being behind in several others. This is pretty much the case for the other Tier 2 BC's across the board: They rival their command ships or HAC's in one area, while falling behind in one or more other areas. As such, I think this is completely justifiable. You want the whole package? Train for Command Ships. You want bits and pieces of the package? Train up your Tier 2 BC's extensively. I agree with you. Another thing you guys have to remember is that unlike the T1 Battlecruisers and there Command ship cousins the new Battlecruisers have NO Warfare Link Bonus. For that reason alone it wont make the old ships obsolete. Keeping the Drake as it is will overpower it. I'm Caldari, I cant fly a bs yet, and I have no skillpoints in guns. I look forward to the drake extremely much, but to give it the rsist bonus only the railboats should have is wrong. The Ferox needs two more rails as an above poster noted (the other railboats need more rails as well, but maybe not 2. Dunno about t2 ships)and the drake needs to change its resistance bonus into something else (velocity is the best option so far, but as I said before, this would give it a bit better range on those heavy rockets, which is bad). When these two things is fixed they would be pretty balanced with eachother(and the rest of the tier 1's) :) uh... this is IMO :P You want more rails? more guns? there are "only" 3 other races where you can swim in guns.. hey lets make Caldari all gunnery too.. who needs variety! Get to a BS class and fly the Rokh, there is your solution! or buy an Eagle. OK ok, no need to flame me, I was under the impression Drake had more dps than other BC's and was overpowered. I guess I let the whines get through to me... I dont want to swim in guns, I use missiles and missiles only, and am really looking forward to the drake I just felt that resistance bonus belonged to rail ships, as thats teh pattern through all Caldari ships. What I really dont want to see, is ccp removing the rof bonus. So IF ccp decides that the Drake shall be again another unusable solo pvp ship in the Caldari lineup, I would much rather see the resistance bonus go than the rof bonus, kk? Of course, if its true that it isnt overpowered, then I'm all for the current Drake, although I still think the resistnace is kind of misplaced in the history of Caldari ships -JM
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 19:58:00 - [115] Originally by: Jaedar Metron OK ok, no need to flame me, I was under the impression Drake had more dps than other BC's and was overpowered. I guess I let the whines get through to me... I dont want to swim in guns, I use missiles and missiles only, and am really looking forward to the drake I just felt that resistance bonus belonged to rail ships, as thats teh pattern through all Caldari ships. What I really dont want to see, is ccp removing the rof bonus. So IF ccp decides that the Drake shall be again another unusable solo pvp ship in the Caldari lineup, I would much rather see the resistance bonus go than the rof bonus, kk? Of course, if its true that it isnt overpowered, then I'm all for the current Drake, although I still think the resistnace is kind of misplaced in the history of Caldari ships Not overpowered, at best equal. As for the history of resistances, Merlin (half guns half misiles), Moa, Ferox and Nighthawk all have Resistance bonuses. The Raven is the only one that has a ROF bonus for misiles, and no res bonuses. not to mention the other cruisers, as their bonuses vary for their specializations...
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:00:00 - [116] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. Dude, my freaking Battleship, the oh so powerful according to the Gallente Raven can fit only 3 Heavies. You want to have 5+ in your BC? Gun bonuses or not, come on! So... er... are you saying the Myrmidon should have 6 siege missile launchers with a rate of fire bonus. Or what are you trying to say, really? - What am I listening to?
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:01:00 - [117] Most of the whining about the Drake was coming from the misprinted 225 damage per rage heavy assault missile, instead of the 125 that it is actually supposed to be (both base damage, not including skills). At least, that's what I've seen. Having flown all four Tier 2 BC's on the test server now, none of them really overpower the others now that people are actually experimenting with worthwhile fittings. The exception to the rule is the Myrmidon, it really does need a bit of love still. I don't know what the longterm solution for the ship will be, but everytime I've PvPed against it on Test so far I've destroyed the drones right off the bat in my Hurricane, Harbringer, or Drake, and then laughed at the defenseless BC in front of me. The only one of the new BC's that really has anything to fear from the Myrmidon is the Harbringer, simply because it is so cap-reliant. I firmly belive that the Myrmidon needs SOME sort of loving, but I'm not really in a position to suggest anything at this point in time. And for those of you who think that the Drake having a bonus to resistances is so out of place, remember that this is an evolving EVE. We've already seen three other non-turret ships come out from the Caldari manufacturing lines that have this bonus: the Nighthawk, the Chimera, and the Wyvern. Sure one is T2, but the other two are very much T1, and would represent the current direction that new Caldari tech is headed in. Stronger, harder shields for all of their ships, not just the few of them that currently use turrets.
Kapitanleutnant Mei	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:02:00 - [118] Edited by: Kapitanleutnant Mei on 26/10/2006 20:02:26 the sheer arrogance of the gallente people here who think that just because their BC isn't easily owning everyone else as they've become used to it need to be boosted is amazing. gallente already have ther uber damage BC they got it in the brutix after this you'll be the only race with 2 used BC's. the drone BC is supposed to be a bit different. 3 NOS and 5 turrets gives an evil tank and when combined with 5 medium drones a fair bit of DPS. I think the suggestion about changing the damage bonus to something slightly higher (say 15%) and it only applying to scout drones is a decent suggestion .- all the whining for a 250m3 drone bay is not.(unless you want to drop 3 highs for it). anyway onto what i actually wanted to talk about- the drake. I can clearly see the problem with the second boni on the drake-5% kinetic missile damage makes it too damaging and the 10% missile velocity in theory takes away the main disadvantage of heavy assault missiles. HOWEVER this is already taken away by the use of javlin missile which for only a 10% damage reduction (and a near irrelevant speed nerf) can hit out an insane distance. therefore i'd say 10% missile velocity is a pretty fair option. Also I'd like to point out that rigs will make a MASSIVE difference to all of these ships and they will have been designed with that in mind- is there by any chance a drone bay rig?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:03:00 - [119] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. Dude, my freaking Battleship, the oh so powerful according to the Gallente Raven can fit only 3 Heavies. You want to have 5+ in your BC? Gun bonuses or not, come on! Either you're trolling or you're clueless. Drones are a (far far) secondary weapon on your Raven, on the Mymidon they are the primary weapon. And with no gon bonus, they are effectively the only real weapon. With only medium drones, the Myrmidon has the DPS of a Vexor (that's the Gallente t1 drone cruiser, in case your lack of clue extends to non-Caldari ships in general). With 4 heavy drones, it loses against all the other tier2 battlecruisers. This has already been tested on sisi, by multiple people. With 5 heavy drones it might be even -- but even then, it need space for spare drones.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:10:00 - [120] Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei the sheer arrogance of the gallente people here who think that just because their BC isn't easily owning everyone else as they've become used to it need to be boosted is amazing. Please crawl back under your rock. All we're asking for is that the new Gallente BC be on par with the rest of the tier2's. Numerous tests show that at the moment it isn't, it needs some help. It's that simple. Remember that with the ECM nerf, the days of the ECM drone boats is over. You're not going to see ECM Myrmidons (or ECM Doms, for that matter). That whole ship type got a (much needed) nerf.

Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:17:00 - [121] use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Jaedar Metron Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:17:00 - [122] Woot then I give :D If the some of the newer t1 ships have resistance bonuses then I'm all for the Drake as it is now -JM
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:28:00 - [123] By the way, having read through some of these replies with the suggestions to the Myrmidon, I honestly believe that reducing the drone hit points and damage bonus to 7.5% from the 10% and increasing the drone bay size siginificantly is the way to go with this ship. Let's face it, any ship that is supposed to be a drone ship needs to be designed so that the ship can store multiple copies of its primary weapon. Think of the drone bay as the cargohold on any other ship and think of the drones as your ammo. shrug It makes sense to be able to restock your damage out in space on the fly, and not have to worry about instantly losing should your first 4 drones get popped. This would keep the DPS for the myrmidon the same (which admittedly I believe is a little low, but I'm trying to "play within the rules here"), while allowing for multiple ways of drones to keep the ship alive in a hostile environment. Right now all the opponent has to do is kill 4 drones and then have fun with the defenseless ship.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:29:00 - [124] Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? - What am I listening to?
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:32:00 - [125] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:48:00 - [126] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 20:11:29 Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Actually, you could give it the drone bay of a dominix, and it would still do the same damage. While I don't agree with giving it such a huge bay, my point is that it doesn't affect DPS. Going from 4 to 5 heavies isn't going to make the Myrimidon uber. At the most it will make it on par with the other BCs. I am neither friend. May I ask what will you be fitting all these high slots with? hot air? How about if you fit them with Enough NOS to make my shield boosting an idea, while your drones be it 4 drop me in less than a minute? If you want a WAVE, or a replenishment of drones, who said your BC is supposed to have heavies? you can do a very good damage in medium T2 drones? Maybe now you will complain that they will come pretty expensive to support and fit.. oh well.. read the post above of the person that was following the logic that gallente will finally have some challenge when flying a ship. that's not bad, use your oh so uber skills and tactics to prevail instead of calling people incompetent. If you're are a competent yourself you would love a challenge. Either you're trolling or you're clueless. Drones are a (far far) secondary weapon on your Raven, on the Mymidon they are the primary weapon. And with no gun bonus, they are effectively the only real weapon. With only medium drones, the Myrmidon has the DPS of a Vexor (that's the Gallente t1 drone cruiser, in case your lack of clue extends to non-Caldari ships in general). With 4 heavy drones, it loses against all the other tier2 battlecruisers. This has already been tested on sisi, by multiple people. With 5 heavy drones it might be even -- but even then, it need space for spare drones. I am neither friend. Please take your time to refer to couple of post up, where a person was expressing their dislike of Gallente pilots who facing an actual challenge in game start whining. This is exactly what you are doing. After all this whining and sobbing a person would simply ask you how much drone space is enough to shut you up. I guess you will smile of contempt then wouldn't you.. well buddy, I guess you will have to face a challenge, cause these ship designes aren't changing.. welcome to the Eve the way other races see it! An interesting challenge!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:52:00 - [127] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei the sheer arrogance of the gallente people here who think that just because their BC isn't easily owning everyone else as they've become used to it need to be boosted is amazing. Please crawl back under your rock. All we're asking for is that the new Gallente BC be on par with the rest of the tier2's. Numerous tests show that at the moment it isn't, it needs some help. It's that simple. Remember that with the ECM nerf, the days of the ECM drone boats is over. You're not going to see ECM Myrmidons (or ECM Doms, for that matter). That whole ship type got a (much needed) nerf. As we shouldn't see ECM Dominixes! Period. It's a caldari EW warfare of choice among all races and only 3 specialized ships get bonuses to use them. I guess you will finally be challenged to think but hey why do that, instead start whining to get more ship bonuses, cause Gallente ships never seem to be at par hhuh.. I guess it's a conspiracy against your avatars or something.. go figure... Oh and keep the flames coming, I like char-broiled meat!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:54:00 - [128] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:55:00 - [129] You sir, are a troll. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 20:59:00 - [130] Originally by: Centurin You sir, are a troll. And you sir an an elf! Just because someone finally is challenging Gallente and doesn't want to listen to your continuous sobbing and wining on the forums that you are all so worse than the other races, doesn't mean they are here to stall everything. Just stop whining, you've got enough from doing so already!

murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:01:00 - [131] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP PvP w/ Kali is measured in minutes, not seconds. With the Hurricane I can web/kill all 4 heavies before I'm into half armor, and this is assuming I get into range of the Myrmidon's guns, which if you're smart, you won't for the first part of the fight. AFTER you've killed it's drones, THEN you move in and kill it. It's such a simple concept, even a monkey could do it. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:05:00 - [132] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP PvP w/ Kali is measured in minutes, not seconds. With the Hurricane I can web/kill all 4 heavies before I'm into half armor, and this is assuming I get into range of the Myrmidon's guns, which if you're smart, you won't for the first part of the fight. AFTER you've killed it's drones, THEN you move in and kill it. It's such a simple concept, even a monkey could do it. Lol, if a Myrmidon pilot lets you escape his guns, then he isn't doing something right. Even if that's the case why wouldn't he simply quit a losing battle, since apparently he and apparently you are out of range? I guess there's more than 1 way to do a monkey business. You have 1 battle and that should really convince everyone of a ships abilities? Hardly so m8, there are much more creative people in this game than what you're making the eve players out to be...
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:10:00 - [133] Maybe you should fly the ship first before accusing us of whining. We have all made good arguments for an increased drone bay and all I see you doing is trolling. Please explain to me in a constructive matter why the Myrmidon should remain as is. Have you flown it on the test server? Do you believe that it shouldn't outdamage a cruiser? Please enlighten me. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
solarwinds Minmatar Isotope Laboratories Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:14:00 - [134] Originally by: EvilNate This might just be me, I love the hurricane, but I think it needs a slight speed increase, not much, maybe 50 m/s or so, but otherwise it's perfect. Nate. Fixed. __________ Your wife's B!tch Slap strikes you perfectly, wrecking for a lifetime of pain and misery...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:22:00 - [135] Originally by: Centurin Maybe you should fly the ship first before accusing us of whining. We have all made good arguments for an increased drone bay and all I see you doing is trolling. Please explain to me in a constructive matter why the Myrmidon should remain as is. Have you flown it on the test server? Do you believe that it shouldn't outdamage a cruiser? Please enlighten me. Yes I have flown it and yes I have tested that on the server. The fact that it IN YOUR OPINION underpowered compared to your cruiser, is very VERY doubtful. If you're getting so much DPS from your cruiser, maybe we should revise the latter as well.. What do you think? And please, do actually think before you call people trolls, or any other sort of mystical creatures.. albeit it might aggravate you this is not WOW..
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:27:00 - [136] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:32:07 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:30:31 Originally by: Black Scorpio As we shouldn't see ECM Dominixes! Period. It's a caldari EW warfare of choice among all races and only 3 specialized ships get bonuses to use them. I guess you will finally be challenged to think but hey why do that, instead start whining to get more ship bonuses, cause Gallente ships never seem to be at par hhuh.. I guess it's a conspiracy against your avatars or something.. go figure... How about you go away and stop trolling this otherwise pretty constructive discussion about the new BCs. This is a Kali feedback thread, not your personal amusement ride. (and I'm not sure if you realize that I also hate ECM Doms and other ship fittings caused by the broken state of ECM on traquility, which will be fixed by Kali).
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:30:00 - [137] No ones asking for the Myrmidon to be the epitome of ownage. But when you pay 50 mil for a drone battlecruiser, you would think it could outdamage a Vexor. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:34:00 - [138] Originally by: Imode No ones asking for the Myrmidon to be the epitome of ownage. But when you pay 50 mil for a drone battlecruiser, you would think it could outdamage a Vexor. the prices will certainly adjust once the hype of the "I must have that shiny new ship" settles. maybe not, well see..
Imode Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:36:00 - [139] Not really as the price is governed by the average market price of minerals, of which the tier 2's use a great quantity of. Nearly double the Zydrine I believe. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:38:00 - [140] meh.. lemme add something to make the topic more flammable. taken from the myrmidon thread below: Originally by: Grimpak ok so how about this: reduce to 6 hislots (6 turrets) give more lows and meds increase drone bay change bonus to: +5% hybrid damage per level +1 scout/medium drone control per level reasoning? the myrmidon becomes a unique drone ship. it is not a vexor, since it dishes more damage than him. it is not a domi since it gives out more drones. instead of giving a dmg bonus, why not increasing the ship's ability to field drones? reasoning behind such idea? if battlecruisers field more guns cruiser-sized guns than cruisers themselves, why not make a battlecruiser drone carrier that can field MORE cruiser-sized drones? ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:38:00 - [141] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:32:07 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:30:31 Originally by: Black Scorpio As we shouldn't see ECM Dominixes! Period. It's a caldari EW warfare of choice among all races and only 3 specialized ships get bonuses to use them. I guess you will finally be challenged to think but hey why do that, instead start whining to get more ship bonuses, cause Gallente ships never seem to be at par hhuh.. I guess it's a conspiracy against your avatars or something.. go figure... How about you go away and stop trolling this otherwise pretty constructive discussion about the new BCs. This is a Kali feedback thread, not your personal amusement ride. (and I'm not sure if you realize that I also hate ECM Doms and other ship fittings caused by the broken state of ECM on traquility, which will be fixed by Kali). Well good on the second part of your post. As for the first, I am sorry to disappoint you, but countless whining exclusively by apparently gallente pilots does not seem at the least bit constructive for me. It's the same whine as usual. How come there is really no other race's pilot here rambling about oh my ship is so underpowered, where's my Win button! I guess, this seems pretty constructive to you however. I feel obliged to put an end to the whining madness. You call me troll? Funny you don't call that the 10000 Gallente pilots whining to get 10000000 drone space or at least pliiiizzz at least one more heavy drone, oh, it's not going to make this ship uber, come on pliiizzzz.. what is this? I tell you what it's not, it is not productive!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:42:00 - [142] Originally by: Black Scorpio Yes I have flown it and yes I have tested that on the server. The fact that it IN YOUR OPINION underpowered compared to your cruiser, is very VERY doubtful. If you're getting so much DPS from your cruiser, maybe we should revise the latter as well.. Ok, I assume English isn't your first language, so I won't attack your writing too much -- but you're not being very clear here. Fact: Myrmidon with medium drones has pretty much the same DPS as a Vexor. The Vexor gets -1 turret, but gets a +5% per level damage bonus to guns. Those pretty much balance out with the Myrmidon's 5 guns with no bonuses. The drone DPS is exactly the same. And in case you're wondering, the DPS that we're talking about is t1 cruiser class, not tier2 BC class. A Myrmidon using medium drones would get annihilated by the other tier2 BCs. A Myrmidon using 4 heavy drones will still get killed, but in this case it's because the drones die easily and after that the dps is laughable. The ship needs help. Want to prove us wrong? So to sisi and build and Myrmidon fitting that can perform on equal footing against the other tier2 BCs. Then come back and talk.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:43:00 - [143] Originally by: Grimpak meh.. lemme add something to make the topic more flammable. taken from the myrmidon thread below: Originally by: Grimpak ok so how about this: reduce to 6 hislots (6 turrets) give more lows and meds increase drone bay change bonus to: +5% hybrid damage per level +1 scout/medium drone control per level reasoning? the myrmidon becomes a unique drone ship. it is not a vexor, since it dishes more damage than him. it is not a domi since it gives out more drones. instead of giving a dmg bonus, why not increasing the ship's ability to field drones? reasoning behind such idea? if battlecruisers field more guns cruiser-sized guns than cruisers themselves, why not make a battlecruiser drone carrier that can field MORE cruiser-sized drones? So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:43:00 - [144] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 21:45:23 Originally by: Black Scorpio the prices will certainly adjust once the hype of the "I must have that shiny new ship" settles. maybe not, well see.. Ok, that comment proves it: you either know nothing about the game or you're trolling. Which is it? (hint: t1 market prices are governed by mineral costs)
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:47:00 - [145] Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? I think that would be overpowered, but I haven't done the DPS calculations so not sure. It sounds overpowered. The last thing I want is an overpowered ship. I want a BC that is on equal footing with the others, dammit, nothing more nothing less.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:51:00 - [146] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? 600dps from drones would shut me up, yes. It'd also make a kick ass forward observer for a carrier... Here you go, one happy brother! Hey CCP, open those Christmas bags a bit earlier and start handing out drone space, it makes Gallente happy, and there's nothing better on a forum than seeing Gallente not whine! Yaayyyy !!! Cheers!
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:53:00 - [147] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? I think that would be overpowered, but I haven't done the DPS calculations so not sure. It sounds overpowered. The last thing I want is an overpowered ship. I want a BC that is on equal footing with the others, dammit, nothing more nothing less. compare 10 med drones with no ship bonuses with 5 med drones with ship bonuses. or, since people are so eager to add heavy drones + dmg bonuses or smth, compare 10 med drones with no ship bonuses at all with 5 heavy drones with ship bonuses. Oh thats no fun, for the purposes of sarcasm assume he meant current bonus + 1 drone control/level. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:53:00 - [148] Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 21:54:10 Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? 600dps from drones would shut me up, yes. It'd also make a kick ass forward observer for a carrier... Here you go, one happy brother! Hey CCP, open those Christmas bags a bit earlier and start handing out drone space, it makes Gallente happy, and there's nothing better on a forum than seeing Gallente not whine! Yaayyyy !!! Cheers! it looks like we've just reach somewhere in this long flammage Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? I think that would be overpowered, but I haven't done the DPS calculations so not sure. It sounds overpowered. The last thing I want is an overpowered ship. I want a BC that is on equal footing with the others, dammit, nothing more nothing less. compare 10 med drones with no ship bonuses with 5 med drones with ship bonuses. or, since people are so eager to add heavy drones + dmg bonuses or smth, compare 10 med drones with no ship bonuses at all with 5 heavy drones with ship bonuses. Oh thats no fun, for the purposes of sarcasm assume he meant current bonus + 1 drone control/level. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:57:00 - [149] Originally by: Black Scorpio Invalidating other's people comments makes you happy is it? English not being their first language is a basis to flame? lol, English is my first language! If missed words mean so much to you you should look up that English teacher you had in 5th grade and marry her (maybe you already have). The point of the matter, is that CCP hasn't done this for a reason. Would you like to say they're really so incompetent and so quick to release a ship that does the same DPS as your Vexor? This is not the case m8, as you're trying everyone on this forum trying to believe! English enough for you? Sigh. First off, I said I wasn't going to comment on language since I assumed you're not a native. Since you are: work on your writing :) (I'm not a native, which makes it slightly more amusing :) Then: the whole point of this forum is to figure out bugs in Kali, to balance ships, etc. No, I don't think CCP is above making balance mistakes, in fact history proves that they make them all the time. It's no wonder, you have a few individual people doing ship stats and thousands of volunteers (that'd be us ) arguing endlessly about them and spending all too many hours doing tests and DPS calcs. We are the (preliminary) test department. Believe me or not, I really do want a balance in the new ship types, I don't want an overpowered Gallente ship -- because it would just get the nerfbat next. I want a solid ship that's fun to fly and which is on the same power level as the other BCs. Is that too much to ask? Right now, it looks like the other 3 BCs all rock, and the Myrmidon is a bit lacking.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 21:59:00 - [150] Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei Originally by: Alex Harumichi Please crawl back under your rock.Numerous tests show that at the moment it isn't, it needs some help. It's that simple. Remember that with the ECM nerf, the days of the ECM drone boats is over. You're not going to see ECM Myrmidons (or ECM Doms, for that matter). That whole ship type got a (much needed) nerf. OH RLY?- the myrmidons i just saw solo 2 drakes on the test server thanks to good piloting and med drones (and admittedly the fact that pilots haven't had time to tran up heavy assault missile skills). What peopl fail to realise is that while kali is giving you an ECM nerf its ALSO giving you a NOS boost in the form of longer fight time- a 3 nos 1 neut mrymid has an evil cap drain ability while with the new hitpoint boost can sustain a dual rep tank. , but i freely admit it needs some tweaking, I saw it go up against a skilled hurricane ansd yes it did die after a long fight. Heck you can even have a slightly larger drone bay, i'd be fine with a 150m3 bay because you'd still be crippled if another pilot destroys your drones (this seems to be your major gripe). My post was really aimed at all the idiots who want a 250m3 bay and a med hybrid bonus- you just seem to be calling everyone else a troll and whining, i havn't seen you post a single specifc suggested change yet- you just shout "it needs to be changed" from the rooftops. Incidentally the thorax outdamages the ferox and the prophecy and he brtuix some BS- Precisely. What for example stops a pilot from NOS_ing his target to death while arm repping itself? Then release the drones when it's target is left with no shield/armor rep capabilities? I'll tell you what, nothing.And no ,a caldari can't fit so and so NOS, because we simply DO NOT have the luxury of 4 or 5 heavy drones, not to mention the freaking 10 med drone apparent advantage. As I mentioned there are creative people in this game and that simply means that you would have to use your brains for once. Btw, just because a Hurricane beat the Myrmidon once it does not mean it's gimped. Is it supposed to ALWAYS win to call it at par? .. wow.. go play it may help you! English enough for you?

Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:00:00 - [151] Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:04:00 - [152] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP PvP w/ Kali is measured in minutes, not seconds. With the Hurricane I can web/kill all 4 heavies before I'm into half armor, and this is assuming I get into range of the Myrmidon's guns, which if you're smart, you won't for the first part of the fight. AFTER you've killed it's drones, THEN you move in and kill it. It's such a simple concept, even a monkey could do it. Lol, if a Myrmidon pilot lets you escape his guns, then he isn't doing something right. Even if that's the case why wouldn't he simply quit a losing battle, since apparently he and apparently you are out of range? I guess there's more than 1 way to do a monkey business. You have 1 battle and that should really convince everyone of a ships abilities? Hardly so m8, there are much more creative people in this game than what you're making the eve players out to be... The Hurricane is faster than the Myrmidon. With a 20km scram I can dicate range quite easily. With two webs, even more so. I haven't just fought one fight. I've fought numerous fights with multiple setups against a wide variety of players. You keep making the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing and don't know what I'm talking about. You couldn't be more wrong. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:06:00 - [153] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio Invalidating other's people comments makes you happy is it? English not being their first language is a basis to flame? lol, English is my first language! If missed words mean so much to you you should look up that English teacher you had in 5th grade and marry her (maybe you already have). The point of the matter, is that CCP hasn't done this for a reason. Would you like to say they're really so incompetent and so quick to release a ship that does the same DPS as your Vexor? This is not the case m8, as you're trying everyone on this forum trying to believe! English enough for you? Sigh. First off, I said I wasn't going to comment on language since I assumed you're not a native. Since you are: work on your writing :) (I'm not a native, which makes it slightly more amusing :) Then: the whole point of this forum is to figure out bugs in Kali, to balance ships, etc. No, I don't think CCP is above making balance mistakes, in fact history proves that they make them all the time. It's no wonder, you have a few individual people doing ship stats and thousands of volunteers (that'd be us ) arguing endlessly about them and spending all too many hours doing tests and DPS calcs. We are the (preliminary) test department. Believe me or not, I really do want a balance in the new ship types, I don't want an overpowered Gallente ship -- because it would just get the nerfbat next. I want a solid ship that's fun to fly and which is on the same power level as the other BCs. Is that too much to ask? Right now, it looks like the other 3 BCs all rock, and the Myrmidon is a bit lacking. Well brother, I hope you're sincere in your desires to achieve balance, usually it seems that people do this MOSTLY for their selfish reasons. And as I mention, it is good to have a forum on this I am just so Sick and Tired of ONLY Gallente pilots flooding them and blasting left and right that see their ships are underpowered. I didn't see nearly as many of the other races pilots out here, and I am far from assuming their ships are perfect. I'd say let the ships be. If there is this obvious gap in the Myrmidon's stats, I'm sure it will not go unnoticed. Preliminary 1-10 test fights do not and cannot decide it. It is simply not realistic. The fact that it might be so that Gallente pilots participate more in testing than other races, does not give them the right to turn the tables in their favor. Hope you are actually trying to see what I am sayig and not just pounding on the same spot!
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:07:00 - [154] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:09:00 - [155] Originally by: murder one The Hurricane is faster than the Myrmidon. With a 20km scram I can dicate range quite easily. With two webs, even more so. I haven't just fought one fight. I've fought numerous fights with multiple setups against a wide variety of players. You keep making the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing and don't know what I'm talking about. You couldn't be more wrong. No I don't assume that. But you assume that everyone in game will make the choices you do or fight at the full knowledge of who's facing who. This simply is not the case! Testing is one thing, reality always proved it is somehow a bit different now, isn't it!
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:09:00 - [156] Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? Would be overpowered since 10 drones under the current system would be 20 drones under the old system... wouldn't help with lag either. Personally my initial reaction would be to give it a 200m3 drone bay in return for losing 1 a high slot or trading 2 highs for 1 low and probably lowering the grid accordingly. It would have to be tested though.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:11:00 - [157] Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:15:14 Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? Would be overpowered since 10 drones under the current system would be 20 drones under the old system... wouldn't help with lag either. Personally my initial reaction would be to give it a 200m3 drone bay in return for losing 1 a high slot or trading 2 highs for 1 low and probably lowering the grid accordingly. It would have to be tested though. wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. however, it will make it harder to eliminate the drone component of the ship (thus a big lump of it's firepower) because it is more spreaded out thru more drones. as for the lag, well, it is 10 drones. I cannot compete with such thing. Never said it didn't had any drawback ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:13:00 - [158] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. This is amazing, another UBER boat. Now lets add bonuses for each!
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:17:00 - [159] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. This is amazing, another UBER boat. Now lets add bonuses for each! if it is still overpowered in your eyes, remove the hybrid dmg bonus then ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:21:00 - [160] Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously...

Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:25:00 - [161] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously... yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:28:00 - [162] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously... yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. oh noess.., pliiizzz add more!!! more drones, more bonuses, more of everything, come on, you can't possibly have enough of them, 6/6/6, what's that a joke? 666? the number of the beast? i say, make it 7/7/7 to make it a lucky number :D
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:28:00 - [163] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 22:28:14 Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones Screw armor tanking, that'd be the best shield tanking ship in the game. EDIT: Ok thats hyperbole, but seriously I'd shield tank that thing. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:30:00 - [164] Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:33:00 - [165] /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [166] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3. Hey, how about a variety, some med some light drones,what's so bad about that? Need more DPS.. Christmas is coming! Darn I miss the Snowball launcher !!!
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [167] Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 14:31:35 [ Because all noncapital Gallente combat craft have a Small/Medium/Large Hybrid Bonus? False. The Imicus isnt a very good combat ship admitedly but its three light drones and bonus to drone range mean it can do nasty things to other frigates if they are set up for Long range. It has no hybred damage bonus.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [168] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3. that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 - [169] Originally by: Hllaxiu Screw armor tanking, that'd be the best shield tanking ship in the game. EDIT: Ok thats hyperbole, but seriously I'd shield tank that thing. So would I. I'd shield tank the current one if there were any point to putting damage mods in lows ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 - [170] Originally by: madaluap /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... Lots, as it help the BBQ produce steaks :) And I like them! :)

Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:39:00 - [171] Originally by: Grimpak that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much Even with the extra drones I don't think it would help that much since medium drones still go down pretty quick.. would also probably run into problems with ewar drones. I personally wouldn't want to fight a ship with 10 ECM drones or 6 ECM drones and 4 sensor damp drones. A flat change to the drone bay would be the simplest fix assuming it keeps it inline with the other BC... if that can't be done I'd probably say drop the rep bonus for a 5% hybrid dmg bonus.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:43:00 - [172] Originally by: madaluap /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... That much hot air? Will need some serious tanking, methinks...
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:43:00 - [173] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much Even with the extra drones I don't think it would help that much since medium drones still go down pretty quick.. would also probably run into problems with ewar drones. I personally wouldn't want to fight a ship with 10 ECM drones or 6 ECM drones and 4 sensor damp drones. A flat change to the drone bay would be the simplest fix assuming it keeps it inline with the other BC... if that can't be done I'd probably say drop the rep bonus for a 5% hybrid dmg bonus. I guess you have a point there. however a +1 drone control bonus would made the ship much more unique. hmm... maybe making the bonus applying to solely scout/medium combat drones? ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Kaathar Rielspar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:53:00 - [174] Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 26/10/2006 23:01:08 Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 26/10/2006 22:53:37 hmmm, interesting discussions on the new ships, especially the myrmidon. i like the most recent suggestions and if it is deemed that a change to the ship bonuses is in order then i'd go with the rep bonus and +1 scout/medium controlled per level would mean that it can field more drone dps than the vexor (by 2.5 drones at an extra 40mil+ cost, seems fairly balanced) and pilots have the option of 2 waves of 10 lights or a single cloud of mediums. this bonus would also make the ship unique if we discount the guardian vexor (theres the precedent right there) which can only be a good thing. my $0.02 ____________________ Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Originally by: Eximius Josari If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs? Overpriced Nos victims.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:56:00 - [175] Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar this bonus would also make the ship unique if we discount the guardian vexor (theres the precadent right there) which can only be a good thing. Its precedent for overlooking bonuses on ships which never get used due to their rarity... not really precedent for adding a new +1 drone control/lvl, although I suppose you could look to carriers for precedent on that.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:57:00 - [176] Originally by: Hllaxiu In short: 10 drones isn't going to happen so lets not waste our time on suggesting it. one can only try and ask to see if it's possible or not. oh and btw, I realy thing it is possible, since there is a skill that applies only to medium/scout drones. maybe tying up the control bonus to that parameter. Originally by: Azerrad InExile Basically would be garunteed death to smaller ships. you can do that already with the drake. 7 T2 assault launchers + precision lights = omfgpwned frigs and the like anyways at least it IS a suggestion, and I am/was being serious about it. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:13:00 - [177] Originally by: Grimpak you can do that already with the drake. 7 T2 assault launchers + precision lights = omfgpwned frigs and the like anyways at least it IS a suggestion, and I am/was being serious about it. I have no doubt that you were being serious, I just personally think it would have to many issues (btw I am completing drone interfacing 5 in about 10 days so I have nothing against drones). Regarding the drake I don't think 7x precision lights would do anywhere near the damage of 10x hammerheads, but 7x precision lights is going to make for an insane fleet support setup. I'm probably the most worried about the drake being unbalanced in all of this, but the hurricane isn't far behind. Whatever the ammar one is called seems ok and the gallente one seems a bit weak in comparision to the caldari and minmatar, but about on par with the amarr one. However, I'm not happy about any of them having tanking bonuses... I'd like to see the drake's bonus changed to 5% rof and 10% velocity and the gallente one changed to 10% drone and 5% hybrid.
albert camus Quam Singulari	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:13:00 - [178] hmm... all this therorectical crap, ive been playing with all the tier 2 bc's and there pretty well ballanced. All this raw dps stuff is just silly, in actual combat there all nice ships :)
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:15:00 - [179] Edited by: Kalhystia on 26/10/2006 23:15:36 I agree that Myrmidon needs bigger dronebay: 100m3 for a drone BC is just plain joke. The harbinger is pure sex, but could you put the lower gun in the proper place please? It just ruins the whole beauty of the ship
Quilan Ziller	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:31:00 - [180] To all Caldari who are whining about the Myrmidon. You are... incorrect. It is waay underpowered as it is, and only an increase in drone bay space will make it almost balanced against other BCs, especially the missile boats like Ferox. How so? With maximum gunnery and drone skills, Modal Neutrons/AM, 3 damage mods, and Ogre IIs damage against an unhardened Ferox is 360 DPS for 4 heavy drones, 430 for 5 heavy drones. Check it with QuickFit if you don't believe me. Now, the said Ferox has missiles (which ALWAYS hit), and it can fit a webber. The drones will go poof in the first few seconds of the fight. Those are heavy drones, very easy to kill, and very expensive. After that, the Myrmidon is toast. I don't even want to mention the fact that the DPS figures, even if we don't talk about drones getting killed, are nothing spectacular for a triple-MFS suicide fit. And that a Brutix does more damage than that. This ship needs more drone bay space, period. Otherwise, it is only good for level 3 mission running. And stop mentioning the medium drones... Vexor can do that perfectly already. And if a ship 10 times as expensive as a Vexor does the same damage, something is terribly wrong. After all, Drake does not do the same damage as a Moa, and Brutix does more damage than a Thorax. For the price, Myr should be a mini-Domi, not an overpriced Vexor. Otherwise, it will only be flown by noobs, and will never see much PvP (except as being a pirate magnet). And even 5 heavy drones is NOT overpowered against a Caldari ship with missiles.

Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:19:00 - [181] As I said in another post, Drake is comparible to the cerb, in fact all the tier 2 BC are comparible to the HAC they most resemble in each race, thats all except the Myr, compare it to a Ishtar, all I can say is CEO - Art of War
Apollyonn Caldari R.O.G.U.E	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:28:00 - [182] Originally by: Blind Man considering BC level 5: Caldari Ferox and Drake, they both get a shield res bonus (I thought the tier 2's were more 'damage dealers'?) IÆd honestly prefer this, you need a good balance between DPS and staying power. Originally by: Blind Man The Drake also gets another mid and high over the Ferox, making it a better tank anyway. That is very true and it seems to me like it is with the intent of it actually having more of an EWAR capability. Originally by: Blind Man Drake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change. I donÆt really think that this would be a good idea imho. The problem here then becomes that all these people could potentially have trouble because of the following reasons: a) donÆt want to fly a drake and already fly a ferox with missiles b) prefer missiles and are already trained for command modules c) those who primarily use the ferox and canÆt afford the drake as soon as they release it and they change the feroxÆs fitting capabilites Originally by: Blind Man I also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship. The damage difference seems fine to me, but you have to remember the purpose of those ships (Nighthawk, Vulture, and even the Ferox) is to run the Command Links. Theese three ships all have specialized purposes that makes them important. You canÆt just expect every ship to be equal, some will serve a specific purpose. I donÆt know enough and havenÆt looked at the others enough to be able to make any kind of educated or intelligent assessment of them other than to remind everyone that the command ships are meant to serve a specific purpose regardless of damage output. ALL I KNOW FOR SURE, I WANT THIS SHIP NOW!
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 04:47:00 - [183] Edited by: Mak''shar Karrde on 27/10/2006 04:47:28 I (and most Minmatar!) am happy with the Hurricane as is. Please don't change it. Thank you. The joys of alliance warfare...
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 05:13:00 - [184] The only logical reason I can see for the Myrs pathetic drone bay is CCP not wishing it to use heavy drones. Now that being said, WHY shouldnt it be able to use 5 heavys? doing the math this will only put it on par with the damage potential of the other tier 2 BCs, so whats the problem? So lets say it can now field 5 heavys, those 5 heavys are pretty easy to kill, especialy with the fights being made longer now, so it realy needs to be able to replace lost drones easily right? surely this is only fair as we cant exactly shoot the guns/launchers off the other ships. So now we have worked out that 5 heavys is in fact quite fair, and it realy needs to be able to have multiple waves of drones so it doesnt become completely useless after a few have been shot, also if it warps out it instantly loses all its damage. So, why cant it have a Ishtar sized drone bay? why would this be so bad? why cant it have 5 heavys, 5 meds and 5 lights in its bay? Realy not understanding why some people are so anti big drone bay for what is a dedicated drone ship. s said above all the other BCs are comparible to there HAC brothers, Cerb vs Drake, according to most numbers etc the Drake is on par if not BETTER than the Cerb, so why cant the Myr be more like a Ishtar than the Vexor its more currently like atm? CEO - Art of War
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 05:21:00 - [185] Originally by: Karen Dark First yes i fly Caldari and almost nothing else. Second why not put a MWD on a missile ship? So a MWD gives you a big sig it doesnt matter what weapons you are useing. The heavy assault missiles have fight time of 2 seconds base. Heck all someone has to do is orbit you at 10-11ks and wear you down cause you wont catch them and you wont be able to run cuz they will have scramed you to death. Once agin this was an IDEA nothing more.Thanks for being a asshat and contributing nothing useful to this thread. Oh Jesus *****F'ing christ... HAM's are SHORT RANGE WEAPONS. They're the missile equivalent of blasters. What you've jsut said is like a Thorax pilot going "omg, my basters can't hit the enemy if they stay outsde my range, boostkthnx". You don't HAVE to use HAM's on the drake, heavy missiles can still be used on this ship. Getting into range to do this can be accomplished in many ways, web and hope hte come to you, AB/MWD and goto them or have a gangmate tackle them down for you. If you can't do any of those three, fit normal heavy missiles. Your DPS will still be something fierce. "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu
Quilan Ziller	Posted - 2006.10.27 05:32:00 - [186] Originally by: Nebuli The only logical reason I can see for the Myrs pathetic drone bay is CCP not wishing it to use heavy drones. Now that being said, WHY shouldnt it be able to use 5 heavys? doing the math this will only put it on par with the damage potential of the other tier 2 BCs, so whats the problem? So lets say it can now field 5 heavys, those 5 heavys are pretty easy to kill, especialy with the fights being made longer now, so it realy needs to be able to replace lost drones easily right? surely this is only fair as we cant exactly shoot the guns/launchers off the other ships. So now we have worked out that 5 heavys is in fact quite fair, and it realy needs to be able to have multiple waves of drones so it doesnt become completely useless after a few have been shot, also if it warps out it instantly loses all its damage. So, why cant it have a Ishtar sized drone bay? why would this be so bad? why cant it have 5 heavys, 5 meds and 5 lights in its bay? Realy not understanding why some people are so anti big drone bay for what is a dedicated drone ship. s said above all the other BCs are comparible to there HAC brothers, Cerb vs Drake, according to most numbers etc the Drake is on par if not BETTER than the Cerb, so why cant the Myr be more like a Ishtar than the Vexor its more currently like atm? Well said. And, coming from a Caldari character, sounds really convincing! Please, increase the Myr's drone bay!
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:55:00 - [187] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 27/10/2006 06:55:23 Any dev comment on myr problem? Just a " we know there is a problem with myrmidon" should be good. I know those ships are just in testing, so be aware for a problem it's already a good step. :) on the other way if u say "no and again no to bigger drone bay", we know that we must suggest something else ( brutix like gunboat? )
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:57:00 - [188] Here is something to think about, pure suicide gank DPS. If you bump the drone bay to 125m3 Myr: 5x Ogre IIs = 466 DPS 5x Neutrons IIs w/ 3x stabs = 427 DPS Total = 893 dps Brutix: 5x Hammerhead IIs = 155 DPS 7x Neutron IIs /w 3x stabs = 748 DPS Total = 903 dps A less suicidal drone fitting would be 2x Ogres, 5x Hammerheads, 5x Hobgoblins. Initial damage with 2x Ogres and 3x Hammerheads would be 326 dps. If it fits 5x Ions with 1x Mag stab, the dps is on the guns would be 298. Combined DPS would be 624 (or 569 without the mag stab). Brutix dps with Ion/electron mix and dual repper tank is 560 dps. At this point, I'm just -not- seeing the reason for not giving it at least a 125m3 drone bay. Especially since its dps would drop a lot once the two ogres get picked out.
Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:13:00 - [189] Edited by: Flabida jaba on 27/10/2006 07:15:47 Originally by: Jaedar Metron OK ok, no need to flame me, I was under the impression Drake had more dps than other BC's and was overpowered. I guess I let the whines get through to me... I dont want to swim in guns, I use missiles and missiles only, and am really looking forward to the drake This is not an attemp to flame this guy..but isnt this true of most, of the blather that flys around these forum's...... So you just thought it out DPS'ed all the other BC's and so it should be nerfed????????????????????????????????? even tho you actually had no real idea! just unhelpful and unconstuctive input! This kind of garbage is rampant on these forums! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Under optimal conditions for each ship the Drake Might hit 70-80% the raw dps of the hurricain or harbinger..and that is using the new short range heavy assult missles. Yes it can mount a great tank ..but with its bonus IT must be sheild tanked and it is still the slowest least agile teir II BC. My fave so far is the Hurricain.......that thing has got BMF spray painted on the side and will be come the norm for pirating prolly speed, amour tank, damage++, mid for EW pwnage and scramble ouch i love it Myrm.......prolly need's some love TBH even if it had a 125m3 bay it still screams "pwnd my drones and u will pwnd me"...... and whats the deal with the large sig radius???
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:37:00 - [190] Same sig radius as Brutix - all the tier-2s have the same sig radius as the tier-1s. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!

Akiman	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:45:00 - [191] give myrmidon 6th turret slot and enough pg to fit it...like u thought so... for drone bay is 150m3 5 heavy 5 light drones %5 damage to hybrid turrets %10 to drone stuff . not overpowered not underpowered. if u think it is change drone damage bonus to dronebay bonus. but like this myrmidon is pointless. if u want a dedicated drone boat change it to drone bay and drone damage bonus.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.27 08:04:00 - [192] I'll have to agree with the consensus here. The other BCs look very nice (especially Drake), but the Myrmidon is severely lacking in comparison. To summarize it's points of imbalance: 1. Insufficient damage 2. Insufficient drone bay 3. Armor repairer bonus Because the Myrmidon relies on it's drones as it's primary source of damage, it needs that source to be both sufficient and reliable. Item #3 is there simply because it's an inferior bonus to the resistance one. Solution: 1. +1 turret hardpoint, bonus: +15% damage to light and medium drones, +10% damage to heavy drones 2. Drone bay 200-250 m3 3. Resistance bonus ---
Quilan Ziller	Posted - 2006.10.27 08:38:00 - [193] Originally by: Jin Entres I'll have to agree with the consensus here. The other BCs look very nice (especially Drake), but the Myrmidon is severely lacking in comparison. To summarize it's points of imbalance: 1. Insufficient damage 2. Insufficient drone bay 3. Armor repairer bonus Because the Myrmidon relies on it's drones as it's primary source of damage, it needs that source to be both sufficient and reliable. Item #3 is there simply because it's an inferior bonus to the resistance one. Solution: 1. +1 turret hardpoint, bonus: +15% damage to light and medium drones, +10% damage to heavy drones 2. Drone bay 200-250 m3 3. Resistance bonus IMO, this will make the Myr a bit overpowered - and will incite more Caldari whining. I think that there is no reason to add turret hardpoints to it - not enough grid for them. Resistance bonus is more suitable for an Amarr ship rather then for a Gallente one. But the drone bay needs to be fixed. I think it should be 150 to 200 m3, combined with the current 10% drone bonus. Even a 125 m3 bay will be an improvement... Though a marginal one.
fade Thor	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:16:00 - [194] the myr looks underpowered, but giving it much more than a 100m3 dronebay will make it overpowered, most bs's hav dronebays 125m3 or less, the drone carrying cruisers get 75m3. id say keep the 100m3 dronebay but make the bonuses 10%dronedamage and hp, and 5m3 to dronebay per level. then change the slot layout to 5/6/6 to favor tanking and ewar over turret damage.
Captain Raynor	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:19:00 - [195] Well I really don't understand all the crying over the Drake.. For one, don't compare it to the Ferox which is quite possibly one of the worst designed ships in the game if you ask me. 5 Turrets? Please, it should have 6, maybe 7.. 5 launcher slots? Why.. total schizo layout, I am guessing CCP added the launcher slots so it could be a dual purpose ship and appease to people who go caldari->missiles and wanted to be able to use it.. with the Drake this is no longer needed, make the Ferox a more capable railboat, get rid of those launcher slots add more turrets. The Drake is obviously a great ship, I don't see why people are complaining too much about 7x heavy assault launchers on it, the range is actually pretty bad and the Drake is hardly a speed demon, in fact it's pretty damn slow in general, ~400m/s with a 10mn afterburner II? I don't think a missile velocity bonus would be good for the Drake, it would just make hvy assault missiles more powerful on it, extending the range a good amount, the Drake being slow and hvy assault missiles being slow kinda balances it out. Cerberus with heavy assault launchers is probably going to be scary though.. lots of range there (double range bonus). The real Jim Raynor.
Kapitanleutnant Mei	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:27:00 - [196] you don't listen do you? you all keep whining on for you uber boat while tactly ignoring every point made against it. rather than attempt to use the ship with a modicum of skill you insist on attempting to make it into an ishtar/HAC comparisons make me laugh,there is no reason why it should be better or worse than the HAC, it should be DIFFERENT. which it is. The brutix DPS comparison is also ridiculous, the brutix is you high DPS ship, comparable to the drake+hurricane+harbringer. There is absolutly no reason why the mrymydon should approach the DPS of the highest damage non-BS in the game and still be able to fit 3 NOS (a key part of this ship which many people don't seem to get). Again, because you ignore it -these ships have been specifically designed with rigs in mind, your drones will increase their effectivness dramatically, just as the drake has a high cpu to fit the launcher upgrades. Having said that I don't think an upgrade to 150m3 is neccesarily over powered for the loss of a high slot/turret
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:51:00 - [197] Will all the flamers and trolls please shut the **** up and let the people having constructive conversations get on with it. Several people say they have tested the myrmidon and that they found it weak. Having looked at the stats (and having a gallente alt who flies vexors) I agree with them. It's not really a substantial upgrade from the vexor at all. Everyone seems happy with the stats on the Amarr and Minmatar ships, they are worried that the Caldari may be too strong and the Gallente too weak. There was a constructive discussion of whether that was true or not, by how much it was too weak/strong and what could be done to fix it going on. That in case you missed it is why the Devs made this thread. They _wanted_ balance feedback. Now I was looking at how much stronger the Drake is than the Ferox and thinking that the Drake seems too strong, but there is the very good point made that the Ferox is a very weak battlecruiser - so maybe the Drake is fine and the Ferox needs some work. It would certainly make sense now we have a missile boat available to drop its missile hardpoints and increase the turret ones. For the Gallente one - I've seen several good suggestions, but I don't like the idea of increasing the number of drones controlled at once simply because CCP reduced the number of drones in the first place to reduce lag. Nothing smaller than carriers really should be able to field swarms of drones. Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:03:00 - [198] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Karen Dark A MWD on a misile ship? You apparently can't fly one. Drop resistances for a MWD.. lol, anyone who ACTUALLY fly caldari see any problem ? First yes i fly Caldari and almost nothing else. Second why not put a MWD on a missile ship? So a MWD gives you a big sig it doesnt matter what weapons you are useing. The heavy assault missiles have fight time of 2 seconds base. Heck all someone has to do is orbit you at 10-11ks and wear you down cause you wont catch them and you wont be able to run cuz they will have scramed you to death. Once agin this was an IDEA nothing more.Thanks for being a asshat and contributing nothing useful to this thread. Karen, if you're refering to standard misiles I believe the base is approx. 35km of range, and in a smaller ship that you usually have standards fitted, range isn't so much of a problem. As for the BC class, it uses exclusively Heavy Misiles, which with skills and all are good to at least 60+ km not to mention up to 70-80km. So I really think this idea on your end is a bad one, and it will not have any implications in the game. It certainly has very limited application on a caldari ship anyway. MWD is used primarily on a short ranged high damage ships to get quickly to target. Caldari doesn't have 1 ship that is good at that, especially not their misile based BC! 5% resistance is a much more viable bonus and one that can be of use! In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Zarch AlDain
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:31:00 - [199] Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:33:28 Proposal: Harbinger Harbinger is not as ill recieved as is Abbadon, but still it's not up to par with it's peers. I propose that you redesign it as a mixed laser-drone platform. Not as drone oriented as it's Gallente counterpart, Harbinger will require usage of lasers to compete with it's peers (ie Nos+Drone combo not feasible). Here it is, plain and simple: Harbinger 6-5-7 75m3 drone bay 6 turret hardpoints Bonuses: 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use per skill level 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level NOS + drone combo is not feasible. On On the Harbinger it would be simply outclassed by Myrmidion running same setup. Focus is on combining damage with some versatility, something Amarr lacks atm. We don't need another turret ship. We don't need another turret ship. And as to why Harbinger is not up to par. Compare with Hurricane using some viable setups (using Kali ammo stats) Harbinger 7x Heavy Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 601.2 DPS Hurricane 7x 220mm II w/ Hail + 1x Gyrostab II + 1x Hammerhead II + 4x Hobgoblin II = 579.8 DPS So what does the Harbinger sacrifice for that paltry dmg advantage? Hurricane can fit MAR II + 1600mm Tungsten + 10mn MWD II + Med Nos II. Harbinger only has room for MAR II and 10MN AB II. No room for plate or med NOS. So Hurricane tanks better, goes faster, much more cap, much less vulnerable to tracking disruptors, and has smaller sig radius. Tbh why would you choose to fly Harbinger? And what if Harbinger dropped down to Focused Medium Pulse II? Harbinger 7x Focused Medium Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 536.8 DPS Now it can fit a 1600mm plate, but it does less DPS than Hurricane. Whether you choose to fit MWD or AB, it still can't fill it's last high slot with a Med NOS. And it still has less cap available compared to Hurricane. Simply outclassed.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:33:00 - [200] Originally by: fade Thor the myr looks underpowered, but giving it much more than a 100m3 dronebay will make it overpowered, most bs's hav dronebays 125m3 or less, the drone carrying cruisers get 75m3. Actually, giving it more than 100m3 dronebay will in no way make it overpowered, it will just put it on the same line as the other tier2 bcs. Consider that (unlike the Vexor and Dom) the Myrmidon gets no damage bonus to anything other than the drones. It needs 5 x heavy drones to compete with the other new battlecruisers, especially considering how easy the drones are to kill with Kali longer combat times. As is, with medium drones the Myrmidon has equal DPS to the Vexor, making it useless; why fly an expensive BC when you get the same damage from a cheap t1 cruiser? With heavies it is only slightly better than a Vexor, and if even one of those drones is killed it's game over -- the ship has no room for spares. Maybe the devs thought the ship should use mediums (that would explain the drone bay, 100m3 is nice for two waves of mediums). Problem is, medium drones are totally inadaquate for BCs as the primary damage source. Vexor: 75m3 Myrmidon: 100m3 Ishtar: 375m3 (with HAC V) Dominix: 375m3 See the problem? The Myrmidon is pretty close to Vexor-level, when it should be closer to Ishtar/Dom. All the other tier2 BCs are fairly close to their HAC counterparts is power, the Myrmidon is so far behind the Ishtar as a drone boat is isn't even funny. For example, the Ishtar gets multiple waves of heavy drones and turret damage bonus. In light of the above, how on earth would having 5 heavy drones (with room for a few spares) and no turret damage bonus make the Myrmidon overpowered?

Toaster Oven	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:35:00 - [201] Originally by: Alex Harumichi In light of the above, how on earth would having 5 heavy drones (with room for a few spares) and no turret damage bonus make the Myrmidon overpowered? Agree completely. Myrmidon should have at least 150m3 drone bay.
gfldex	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:55:00 - [202] Some ppl what to see a damage bonus for the Myrmidon. Did you ever tryed to fit it? With a dual rep fitting it cant get a injector (must have with the long fights), 3 med NOS and 5 electrons on. It simply dont got the grid. Even with diminishings it's to low on CPU to fit anything usefull in the med slots. That leads to another odd problem. We have some BC that can go full tank with tec 2 gear for both tank and guns (there is no need for tec 2 scrams and the like and you would not be able to go tec 2 here anyway because of CPU issues). Whereby others can't. In some cases (harbinger) they are even to low on CPU to go full gank. So my question is now: Is there any real reason why some BC are able to fit tec 2 and others dont? -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:02:00 - [203] Edited by: Sniser on 27/10/2006 11:02:43 Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:33:28 And as to why Harbinger is not up to par. Compare with Hurricane using some viable setups (using Kali ammo stats) Harbinger 7x Heavy Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 601.2 DPS Hurricane 7x 220mm II w/ Hail + 1x Gyrostab II + 1x Hammerhead II + 4x Hobgoblin II = 579.8 DPS So what does the Harbinger sacrifice for that paltry dmg advantage? Hurricane can fit MAR II + 1600mm Tungsten + 10mn MWD II + Med Nos II. Harbinger only has room for MAR II and 10MN AB II. No room for plate or med NOS. So Hurricane tanks better, goes faster, much more cap, much less vulnerable to tracking disruptors, and has smaller sig radius. Tbh why would you choose to fly Harbinger? And what if Harbinger dropped down to Focused Medium Pulse II? Harbinger 7x Focused Medium Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 536.8 DPS Now it can fit a 1600mm plate, but it does less DPS than Hurricane. Whether you choose to fit MWD or AB, it still can't fill it's last high slot with a Med NOS. And it still has less cap available compared to Hurricane. Simply outclassed. I had the same problem with my Harbringer if i fit heavy pulse i only have enough pg to fit ab and a single MAR t2 or 1 plate 800mm but SAR with AWU4. I cant understand why Tux dont see amarr fits are really hard to do in nearly every ship(no T2) :S It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:42:00 - [204] IMO the harbringer is ok, exept that it needs 1 less high and 1 more low.
Myrrdin Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:54:00 - [205] Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 27/10/2006 11:02:43 I had the same problem with my Harbringer if i fit heavy pulse i only have enough pg to fit ab and a single MAR t2 or 1 plate 800mm but SAR with AWU4. I cant understand why Tux dont see amarr fits are really hard to do in nearly every ship(no T2) :S Hmm, managed to get on the test server last night and fitted a harbinger with 7 Heavy Pulse II's, 10MN AB II, Selection of EW, MAR II, 3 HSII's and t2 energized membranes. Had about 150 grid left over after that (to use for the grid increase on turrets demanded by Rigs!). My AW upgrades is currently at level 4 though.
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:59:00 - [206] Ok the new battlecruisers :) Heres my discussion contribution; Gallente; I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat. People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. If you were going to boost it, more powergrid/CPU and maybe 1 or 2 extra turret points. Caldari; Drake seems nasty but why the hell does it have more damage and more tank than the ferox? Drake needs to be ballanced I think, basically lose its resistance bonus, replace with missile velocity. Ferox therefore remains the tanker. Ferox/Vulture also needs more turret points at reduced missile points. Amarr; Prophecy is still an uber tanker and its damage isnt too poor either. Harbinger is just like the Minmatar Hurricane, the layout is just dam fine, and very PVPy Obviously will suffer lack of tank when fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse, which balances it out, looking at the Harbinger, I am going to train t2 medium lasers up too Minmatar; I dont really like the Cyclone, its very versatile but it just doesnt want to solo PVP , its heavy on cap cos of its active tank, and really does need an extra medium at the expensive of a low. Hurricane therefore is just a damned fine ship, ROF and damage bonus like Rupture, but with more damage and tank. I just like it, I can see myself happily pvping in this ship for the rest of my time playing EvE tbh :)
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:17:00 - [207] Originally by: Aramendel IMO the harbringer is ok, exept that it needs 1 less high and 1 more low. so you want they take out one turret and less pg for more cpu? nice! obviously you arent amarr if you want they nerf it lol. There is no way the ship dont have an utility high slot since all bc tier2 ships have it. They current dps balance is based on drones It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:28:00 - [208] Originally by: Myrrdin Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 27/10/2006 11:02:43 I had the same problem with my Harbringer if i fit heavy pulse i only have enough pg to fit ab and a single MAR t2 or 1 plate 800mm but SAR with AWU4. I cant understand why Tux dont see amarr fits are really hard to do in nearly every ship(no T2) :S Hmm, managed to get on the test server last night and fitted a harbinger with 7 Heavy Pulse II's, 10MN AB II, Selection of EW, MAR II, 3 HSII's and t2 energized membranes. Had about 150 grid left over after that (to use for the grid increase on turrets demanded by Rigs!). My AW upgrades is currently at level 4 though. and your cap last enough long with only a MAR and no cap booster? Do you know hurricane can fit 1600mm plate + MAR and do nearly same dps than harbringer? So their guns dont use cap and can tank better? with ab you dont dictate the range. Without cap booster you will be out of cap in nearly no time with no plate on setup its much less armor than others bc do you know to let your MAR t2 rep as much as a 1600mm plate the fight need last 140seconds to be equal? 1600mm plate gives around 5000HP mar t2 reps 35.5hp/s do maths If focused medium pulse t2 in a harbringer werent that bad in dps then would be no problem but they arent as good as 220mm fitted in a hurricane It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:31:00 - [209] Edited by: Aramendel on 27/10/2006 12:31:23 Originally by: Sniser so you want they take out one turret and less pg for more cpu? nice! obviously you arent amarr if you want they nerf it lol. There is no way the ship dont have an utility high slot since all bc tier2 ships have it. They current dps balance is based on drones It cannot use the utility high slot (which is pretty much limited for nos anyway) due to grid issues in either case. And just because all tier 2 BCs currently have one does not mean all have to have one. For the tier 1 BCs all exept the Brutix have one too. Did not stop the Brutix having 7 turrets & 7 highs. Typically amarr ships have 1 more low than other ships of the same class, this is not the case for the tier 2 BCs. And for the harbringer 1 more low would be far more useful than 1 non-turret high.
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:35:00 - [210] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 27/10/2006 12:31:23 Originally by: Sniser so you want they take out one turret and less pg for more cpu? nice! obviously you arent amarr if you want they nerf it lol. There is no way the ship dont have an utility high slot since all bc tier2 ships have it. They current dps balance is based on drones It cannot use the utility high slot (which is pretty much limited for nos anyway) due to grid issues in either case. And just because all tier 2 BCs currently have one does not mean all have to have one. For the tier 1 BCs all exept the Brutix have one too. Did not stop the Brutix having 7 turrets & 7 highs. Typically amarr ships have 1 more low than other ships of the same class, this is not the case for the tier 2 BCs. And for the harbringer 1 more low would be far more useful than 1 non-turret high. if you cant use the utility slot then you are agree with me and there isnt enough powergrid It's great being Amarr, ain't it?

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:41:00 - [211] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 12:42:15 Originally by: Isyel Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey Hurricane [snip] Please just shut up and leave my Hurricane alone. It's my (and a lot of other people's) dream ship. Just WHAT else do you want? I said basically the same thing. First I looked at the Harbinger and said YES! Then i looked at the Hurricane and went BWA?!!?!?! The design on the Harbinger and Hurricane are great, very similar ships. There are some problems though, the Harbinger gains 20% armor, and two medium drones[or 4 up'd from light], and 6% better capacitor, in exchange for worse fitting, 10% velocity, size, and zero cap use. Its my understanding that Heavy Pulse Lasers are about equivelent to 425mm autocannons with a 25% damage boost[though i havent examined the actual differences when compared with current or kali ammo yet, however if ammo is similar in damage amount/type, the autocannons have roughly a 12% damage advantage with the 25% damage bonus not including reloading times] The problem of course is that heavy pulse lasers require 70 more PG to use for each, 78 more PG for the tech II variants. This leaves the Harbinger at a net loss of 316 power grid at max skills[366.4 difference with tech 2 and max skills] and the worse your skills are, the worse the difference gets. If the Harbinger is going to make use of its larger powergrid, its got to downsize its weapons[focused mediums PG use is 20 less than 425mm autocannon PG use] and further reduce any damage advantage it has over the Hurricane. And its still slower, heavier, bigger, and sucking down cap when it fires its gun. Are the 20% HP and two medium drones really compensation against smaller, lighter, faster boat with the same slot layout, able to fit larger guns, able to run an armor tank at least equal to yours, that doesnt burn capacitor when it shoots? According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. That is an entire 1600mm plate with garnishings[completly negating the armor strength boost]! And the Hurricane has 25 more CPU base with guns that are even easier to fit in that department too. What are the gun rigs going to do to this picture when the Hurricane has so much extra PG/CPU to play around with. The disparity is ridiculous. The Harbinger needs one of a number of different things. 7/4/7 slot layout. Give us more low slots to play around with, we dont need the utility slot up top, if we want a nos, we can drop a gun for it, if we want a gang mod, we can drop a gun for it. Finnaly a tough fitting choice that doesnt involve us being out of powergrid or CPU. Combine this with a fitting boost so that he can fit the big guns without being down on his competitors and the cap to run it all and you have a winner. OR It needs the 8th turret restored with the CPU/Grid to fit it. The thing looks funny with only 7 turrets anyway, so this is an eye pleasing fix as well. --------- The Bottom line is that in order for the Harbinger to be even close to the Hurricane it needs 75 more CPU and 300 more powergrid[max skills using t2 gun comparisons] and even then the Harbinger is using capacitor for less damage on the same slots flying slower, as a larger target than the Hurricane. You know there is something wrong when the "fast gank" BC from the "fast race" is able to out gank, and out tank the "Gank" BC from the "Gank/Tank" race. These next 367 characters are just here so that I can feel good about my self having used absolutly all the space to tell you, the folks at home, and the devs at work, that the Harbinger needs a boost in order to compete on the same level as at least one other BC, the directly comparble BC in the teir two line up. Thank you for taking the time to read this post and consider the
Iron Savior Caldari Red's Swashbucklers Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:41:00 - [212] I hope Cerberus will coast something about 25 mil in Kali, Drake looks MORE MORE better for 30-50 mil.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:50:00 - [213] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 12:53:24 Addendum: Please dont turn the Harbinger into a drone boat i like it just the way it is [with 100 more CPU, 500 more PG, and an 8th turret slot and a 20% bigger cap, or 75 more CPU, 300 more PG no utility 8th slot and a 7th low slot] 2nd Addendum: The Hurricane can also fit 3 missiles, or rather, 1 missile launcher extra in the high slot[since who would waste a double damage bonus to projectiles on a heavy assault launcher] and can stick either a heavy assault launcher or whatever in there, to increase damage even more over the Harbinger.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:55:00 - [214] agrees with Goumindong mini-geddon ftw \o/ ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:03:00 - [215] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 13:04:35 Originally by: Spaced Skunk I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat. People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. I don't think you've done the numbers on this one. Compared to Vexor, yes it has more hit points, but that is balanced by a much bigger sig rad (about double). Also, it's a lot slower and more cumbersome. That "bigger" tank isn't that big when everything evens out. Compared to Dom... well, that's the problem, isn't it. Where the Drake is not all that far behind the Raven, the Dom totally leaves the Myrmidon in the dust. A Dom DPS is probably double (large turrets with damage bonus) and multiple waves of heavy drones. If you want a smaller drone ship, there is very little reason to fly a Myrmidon over a Vexor. If you want more DPS and tank, the Dom is miles ahead (and no, the price difference isn't that big, either). 375m3 drone bay, large guns with damage bonus, etc. Compared to Eos... well, Eos (which isn't a primary drone boat) has 300m3 of drone bay. Why does the Gallente "drone battlecruiser" have a third of that? Compared to Ishtar... here is gets silly. Ishtar can field multiple waves of heavy drones (375m3 bay), has a gun damage bonus, small signature radius, huge tank, etc etc. It's just no contest, not even on the same playing field. Take a look at the other races. The Drake is pretty close to the Cerberus, in fact all the other tier2's are pretty close to the respective HACs in power. Except the Myrmidon, which is a very slightly tank-boosted slow Vexor. To balance things out, either the Myrmidon needs a boost (drone bay to 150-200m3 is the easiest solution), or the other tier2 BCs need a nerf. And I don't think anyone wants a nerf. With the old broken ECM system, the Myrmidon might just have worked as an ECM-drone platform. With that fixed in Kali, it's left just looking sad. Again: Vexor (cruiser): 75m3 Myrmidon (battlecruiser): 100m3 Eos (battlecruiser): 300m3 Ishtar (cruiser): 375m3 Dominix (battleship): 375m3 Spot the problem? (Not to mention that the Myrmidon is the only ship in the Gallente "drone boat" range which has no gun damage bonus of any kind and relies only on drones. And it has the second-smallest drone bay. Hmmmm.)
Frools No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:19:00 - [216] Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36 7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt its already decent, like an omen only a lot less gimped drone harbinger, no thx to those people saying we dont need another turret ship, yes we do we need a GOOD turret ship t1 and in the cruiser area there isnt a good amarr turret ship the maller and prophecy do weak damage cos they're tank ship and the omen is horribly gimped by lack of grid and a few other things
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:24:00 - [217] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 13:25:56 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Again: Vexor (cruiser): 75m3 Myrmidon (battlecruiser): 100m3 Eos (battlecruiser): 300m3 Ishtar (cruiser): 375m3 Dominix (battleship): 375m3 Spot the problem? You have incorrectly labeled the Eos as a Battlecruiser and the Ishtar as a Cruiser, when they are in fact, a Command Ship and Heavy Assault Cruiser instead? What do i win Bob?! Anyway, I think changing the drone damage/HP bonus to be +15-20% for medium/light drones is a better fix if it needs one. edit: This would secure it as a medium drone platform, giving it decent drone damage without sacrificing the target versitility of medium drones versus heavy drones[which have issues hitting small things]. I.E. a unique drone boat role.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:31:00 - [218] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 13:25:56 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Again: Vexor (cruiser): 75m3 Myrmidon (battlecruiser): 100m3 Eos (battlecruiser): 300m3 Ishtar (cruiser): 375m3 Dominix (battleship): 375m3 Spot the problem? You have incorrectly labeled the Eos as a Battlecruiser and the Ishtar as a Cruiser, when they are in fact, a Command Ship and Heavy Assault Cruiser instead? What do i win Bob?! Anyway, I think changing the drone damage/HP bonus to be +15-20% for medium/light drones is a better fix if it needs one. edit: This would secure it as a medium drone platform, giving it decent drone damage without sacrificing the target versitility of medium drones versus heavy drones[which have issues hitting small things]. I.E. a unique drone boat role. meh you want a unique drone boat? copy-pastes his suggestion 6/6/6 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 150m3 drone bay +1 scout/medium drone per level +5% dmg to med hybrid guns unique drone ship ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:34:00 - [219] It definitly needs the 6th turret, if only so it doesnt look funny. But i think that increasing the drone effectiveness is better than letting people use a lot of drones.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:40:00 - [220] Originally by: Goumindong It definitly needs the 6th turret, if only so it doesnt look funny. But i think that increasing the drone effectiveness is better than letting people use a lot of drones. well it was discussed. and disregarding the point of how the heck do you code the "+1 scout/med drone" thingy, it is equal in terms of firepower, but however it has his advantages. for example in the 5 drones + 20% drone dmg/hp thing, at lvl5 you have theoretically 10 drones, altho in practice it is 5 drones. in a 10 drone config with no firepower added, you have the same firepower (theoretically), but when you pop a drone, you don't lose 2 drones firepower instead. same firepower, but more spreaded out. now the problem is, how it is possible to have a +1 scout/med drone? maybe tying up the bonus to the parameter of the skill that gives more damage to scout/med drones? ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons

Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:49:00 - [221] 8 pages of a lot of .. comments .. I won't go into everything, but being a drone user I have to comment on the Myrmi.. First some general things: - PLEASE do not give it ANY weapon bonus, just drones (and if you really want a tanking bonus like it has now, imho it should have just drone boni, to finally give us a drone ship). - PLEASE do not lower the dmg bonus. Seriously would be unfair, see all tests. - I don't care about using 5 heavy drones with bonus, I care about being able to survive multiple fights/minutes. Seriously drones are easy to take out atm (especially heavies) and seeing as the turrets on a myrmi would be comparable to drones on other ships (ie backup).. Having 100 m^3 drone space is laughable. Give drones the ability to kill turrets/launchers for just 1 day and everyone will be able to feel the pain of losing 5-10M in a fight because they are easy to pick off. - Now if the community still believes having 5 heavy drones + bonus is overpowered, then give the Myrmi 200 M^3 drone space and change the bonus to scout drones only. Now the rest: - Either alter the model to just have 5 turret fittings or give it 6 gun fittings because it looks silly with 5 turrets fitted. (That would leave just 2 high slots besides the guns, so less NOS for the noobs [yes I said it] who fear 12km med nos on a drone ship)(Apparently people also forget the PG reqs for med nos/neut and armour tanks). - ATM all gallente drone ships are really more efficient than the myrmi. I have used my Domi for over 2 years now since it's the only efficient drone ship for my req's. I would only use the myrmi for it's glorious looks atm. Just consider (been said before): -) Domi can use heavy nos, large guns + bonus, same meds, better tank (+2 low slots will compensate the myrmi bonus plenty, and it has the LAR II iso MAR II), has the drone space and can tank passively better (duh). -) Ishtar ... enough said -) Eos ... actually this isn't a drone ship in my opinion since it doesn't have dmg bonus .. Would be (almost) the same as calling an Exequror a gunship since it has more space for ammo, but still it's a command ship, so it will outperform the Myrmi by lots in many fields. -) Vexor ... dmg bonus for guns, has the drone space for nice sets, and is about 1/10 of the price. I won't claim it's better, just loads more efficient. -) Ishkur lol, bring it in why don't we :) Let's see, 40 m^3 on full skills, great stuff, cheaper and it's uses make it more efficient by far (for one it will be hit a lot less). Now don't get me wrong. I have lived with the drone hate for many many years now (/me remembers the good old days of flying 10+ drones on his Domi)so I don't need an UBERWTFPWN drone ship but it would be nice to have at least a realistic extra choice. Calling people whiners because tests and stats prove them right is silly. Making dicussions personal is silly. Who needs to target drones with smartbombs or FoF missiles? The last ones will be standard cargo for missile ships especially short ranged Drakes. Like I said elsewhere on the forum: 150 m^3 would be ok, 175 m^3 would be perfect and if you feel like you should change the dmg bonus to just scout drones then so be it (even though that will make them on par with the others). my 2 cents and x paragraphs. - All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please
TalanR Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:58:00 - [222] Caldari: The drake is a fine ship. The only thing I would change is the resistance bonus for a missile velocity bonus. This will but it in a better place with the caldari ships Moa -> Ferox (railguns and resistance) Caracal -> Drake (missle boat) Minmatar: The hurricane could use a base speed bonus of about 10m/s or a bonus for MWD. I would go with base speed because the MWD bonus might overpower the ship Gallante: This is a lot of complaining about this ship. I have tried it and I seems alright. A compromise might be a be this: base dronebay: 75m3 Fitting: 5 high (3 guns) 4 med (-1 slot) 8 low Bonus: 25m3 of dronespace per level (200m3 max.) 10% drone hp per level 7,5% armor repair per level this reduces the possible gun dps and compromises it with the drone space bonus. about the 4 med slots. i think that 5 is going to push it to a ecm/drone boat but I don't think a 5th slot would overpower the ship Amarr: DonÆt know. canÆt fly the ship so I will leave this to the pilots who can. TalanR
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:28:00 - [223] Originally by: Grimpak agrees with Goumindong mini-geddon ftw \o/ im agree with you and goumindong :P It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Kodiak31415 Imperial Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:35:00 - [224] For people who think that only 100m3 of space on the Myr is fine imagine if the launchers on your drake could be shot off in a volley or two? The fact of the matter is that if a Myr pilot uses heavies in PVP his/her drones will be gone inside of 30 seconds effectivly taking them out of the fight. If the Myr pilot uses meds they are left with a big fat cruiser (Thorax and vexor are almost as high dps as a med myr user). I think a bigger scout only bonus is the way to go with the Myr. A bigger bay would lead to the use of 5 heavies (overpowered) while the big scout bonus would put the Myr up in the range of other BC's. Hmmmm, just noticed that gallente are getting the shaft on new ships. A broken drone boat and a BS that replaces one thats already filling the slot fine. _______________________________ Idea stolen from DS: T2 Synthetic oil. It will get drones to return to your bay!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:43:00 - [225] Originally by: Kodiak31415 A bigger bay would lead to the use of 5 heavies (overpowered) while the big scout bonus would put the Myr up in the range of other BC's. Why would 5 heavies make it overpowered? That's still less DPS than an Ishtar, and comparable to the other tier2s.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:43:00 - [226] Originally by: Sniser if you cant use the utility slot then you are agree with me and there isnt enough powergrid Nope, I agree with you that the utility slot is kinda worthless for it atm. But IMO it would be better for the harbringer if it would be converted into an low slot instead of having it's powergrid increased to use it.
Orrin Danestarr	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:48:00 - [227] Indeed, the Hurricane need s a better base speed. Maybe 180 m/s.. maybe a base 200 m/s? I drool over being able to produce these vessels of much dooooom. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:50:00 - [228] Originally by: Spaced Skunk Ok the new battlecruisers :) Heres my discussion contribution; Gallente; I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat. People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. If you were going to boost it, more powergrid/CPU and maybe 1 or 2 extra turret points. /agreed 1 more turret slot, since 6 mounts on the model look silly with only 5 fitable turrets. and the fact u dont get any hybrid bonus makes a 6th turret not a too big issue dps wise. dronespace: imo the myrm should be able to carry at least 2 flights of med drones to counter its main prey, cruisers. and have additionaly 25-75 drone space for either logistic or scout drones or whatever u want to fit. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:08:00 - [229] Originally by: TalanR Caldari: Gallante: This is a lot of complaining about this ship. I have tried it and I seems alright. A compromise might be a be this: base dronebay: 75m3 Fitting: 5 high (3 guns) 4 med (-1 slot) 8 low Bonus: 25m3 of dronespace per level (200m3 max.) 10% drone hp per level 7,5% armor repair per level this reduces the possible gun dps and compromises it with the drone space bonus. about the 4 med slots. i think that 5 is going to push it to a ecm/drone boat but I don't think a 5th slot would overpower the ship TalanR How about this for the Drake: 3 high (2 missile) Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level. ...
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:19:00 - [230] Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36 7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt what about the absolution? It's great flying Amarr, ain't it?

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:20:00 - [231] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 15:21:00 Originally by: Razin How about this for the Drake: 3 high (2 missile) Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level. Sounds fair. Honestly, if people think it's ok for the Myrmidon being a slightly more tanked Vexor (with same DPS), then the only thing to do is to change the Drake into a slightly more tanked Caracal. So let's see, that means 5 launcher slots. You can keep the 7 highs, but you'll have to use 2 of them for nosfes or smartbombs. Not happy with that? Right. Neither are we with the Myrmidon.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:33:00 - [232] I keep seeing people complaining about how the Myr being able to field 5 heavies will "give it the dps of a battleship". Bullocks! The DPS of a Domi with only 5 tech2 heavies is actually quite low. The only reason this works is because of the nos/ecm combo, which isn't going to work nearly as well on the Myrmidon due to the lack of heavy nos and ecm nerf. A full-gank Brutix can do 980dps. A dual-rep tank Brutix does over 500dps. Gallente are close range. But it looks to me like the Myrmidon will get pwned at all ranges. Hell, I'd take a Vexor up against a Myrmidon. All you gotta do is pop it's drones and tank the light guns because it won't be able to fit any mediums if it takes advantage of it's tank bonus.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:51:00 - [233] Originally by: Kruel I keep seeing people complaining about how the Myr being able to field 5 heavies will "give it the dps of a battleship". Bullocks! The DPS of a Domi with only 5 tech2 heavies is actually quite low. The only reason this works is because of the nos/ecm combo, which isn't going to work nearly as well on the Myrmidon due to the lack of heavy nos and ecm nerf. Exactly. With the ECM+nosfe+drones platform now pretty much dead (good thing too), "drone boats" aren't all that powerful. With increased Myrmidon drone bay: Myrmidon damage: 5 x heavy drone + 5 medium guns (no damage bonus) Dominix damage: 5 x heavy drone + 6 large guns with +5%/lvl damage bonus Someone who claims those are even remotely comparable has some education to do about gun damage. With 5 heavy drones, a Myrmidon would do general HAC damage. Like the Drake and others do now. With the small bay, a Myrmidon can choose to do either sub-HAC damage that will be gone fast leaving the ship helpless, or do t1 cruiser damage. Whee.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:16:00 - [234] Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:21:00 - [235] Originally by: Spaced Skunk Ok the new battlecruisers :) Heres my discussion contribution; Gallente; I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat. People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. If you were going to boost it, more powergrid/CPU and maybe 1 or 2 extra turret points. Caldari; Drake seems nasty but why the hell does it have more damage and more tank than the ferox? Drake needs to be ballanced I think, basically lose its resistance bonus, replace with missile velocity. Ferox therefore remains the tanker. Ferox/Vulture also needs more turret points at reduced missile points. Amarr; Prophecy is still an uber tanker and its damage isnt too poor either. Harbinger is just like the Minmatar Hurricane, the layout is just dam fine, and very PVPy Obviously will suffer lack of tank when fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse, which balances it out, looking at the Harbinger, I am going to train t2 medium lasers up too Minmatar; I dont really like the Cyclone, its very versatile but it just doesnt want to solo PVP , its heavy on cap cos of its active tank, and really does need an extra medium at the expensive of a low. Hurricane therefore is just a damned fine ship, ROF and damage bonus like Rupture, but with more damage and tank. I just like it, I can see myself happily pvping in this ship for the rest of my time playing EvE tbh :) Sorry buddy but I'd hardly choose a Ferox to tank hardly anything for PvP, maybe missions? lol.. be real, the BC class needs every shield res that it can get! Kepp the Drake as it is !!!
Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:29:00 - [236] Originally by: Razin Originally by: TalanR Caldari: Gallante: This is a lot of complaining about this ship. I have tried it and I seems alright. A compromise might be a be this: base dronebay: 75m3 Fitting: 5 high (3 guns) 4 med (-1 slot) 8 low Bonus: 25m3 of dronespace per level (200m3 max.) 10% drone hp per level 7,5% armor repair per level this reduces the possible gun dps and compromises it with the drone space bonus. about the 4 med slots. i think that 5 is going to push it to a ecm/drone boat but I don't think a 5th slot would overpower the ship TalanR How about this for the Drake: 3 high (2 missile) Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level. How about you go back to playing WoW!
Nicolaia Doniachevski	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:29:00 - [237] Gonna get flamed for this one but... figure I might as well throw this out there... ((Yes I dont fly Gallente nor do I use drones)) Anyway with that said, from what I can tell about EVERYONE elses posts is that: 1.The Drake, slightly overpowered, tone it down on the resists or add missile velocity. OKay... done. 2. The Hurricane... just about perfect... okay done 3. The Amarr BC... needs a cap boost in some fashion which from as far as I can tell is necessary for most Amarr ships but people will argue this as well. When it comes to lasers, not fond of the simplicity it is to resist against them. 4. The Gallente BC is just about nerfed ((at least most think so)) and this is why I am posting. Now, I am NOT going to go through and figure every blasted mathematical figure there is to determine if this is a good idea or not but everyone complaint comes down to drone capacity as well as dps. Has anyone ever pondered the idea of increasing the drone bay to hold up to 15 medium drones(3 waves of 5), limiting it to ONLY flying medium or smaller drones, but its bonus is "Capable of field +1 drone per BC level" -- A mini carrier of sorts since the Gallente ARE the drone insanity monsters of the game? Like I said... just an odd suggestion not meant to be anything more then such. Ps: I am Minmitar with only a little Caldari
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:33:00 - [238] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 15:30:49 Originally by: Razin How about this for the Drake: 3 high (2 missile) Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level. Sounds fair. Honestly, if people think it's ok for the Myrmidon being a slightly more tanked Vexor (with same DPS), then the only thing to do is to change the Drake into a slightly more tanked Caracal. So let's see, that means 5 launcher slots. You can keep the 8 highs, but you'll have to use 3 of them for nosfes or smartbombs. Or if you want to compare with Myrmidon and 4 heavies: your Drake has 7 launchers, but every time your shields drop below 50% one of your launchers blows up (this is to balance the ease of destroying those Myrmidon drones, leaving it helpless with no spares). Not happy with that? Right. Neither are we with the Myrmidon. Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there! English enough for you m8 ?????
Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:36:00 - [239] Originally by: Nicolaia Doniachevski Gonna get flamed for this one but... figure I might as well throw this out there... ((Yes I dont fly Gallente nor do I use drones)) Anyway with that said, from what I can tell about EVERYONE elses posts is that: 1.The Drake, slightly overpowered, tone it down on the resists or add missile velocity. OKay... done. 2. The Hurricane... just about perfect... okay done 3. The Amarr BC... needs a cap boost in some fashion which from as far as I can tell is necessary for most Amarr ships but people will argue this as well. When it comes to lasers, not fond of the simplicity it is to resist against them. 4. The Gallente BC is just about nerfed ((at least most think so)) and this is why I am posting. Now, I am NOT going to go through and figure every blasted mathematical figure there is to determine if this is a good idea or not but everyone complaint comes down to drone capacity as well as dps. Has anyone ever pondered the idea of increasing the drone bay to hold up to 15 medium drones(3 waves of 5), limiting it to ONLY flying medium or smaller drones, but its bonus is "Capable of field +1 drone per BC level" -- A mini carrier of sorts since the Gallente ARE the drone insanity monsters of the game? Like I said... just an odd suggestion not meant to be anything more then such. Ps: I am Minmitar with only a little Caldari If that is what you fly do not summarize the whiners on this forum and let us know that you summarized ending it with "done." As you said you have no experience in anything but Minmatar. Voice your opinion about that race ship then!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:38:00 - [240] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Kruel I keep seeing people complaining about how the Myr being able to field 5 heavies will "give it the dps of a battleship". Bullocks! The DPS of a Domi with only 5 tech2 heavies is actually quite low. The only reason this works is because of the nos/ecm combo, which isn't going to work nearly as well on the Myrmidon due to the lack of heavy nos and ecm nerf. Exactly. With the ECM+nosfe+drones platform now pretty much dead (good thing too), "drone boats" aren't all that powerful. With increased Myrmidon drone bay: Myrmidon damage: 5 x heavy drone + 5 medium guns (no damage bonus) Dominix damage: 5 x heavy drone + 6 large guns with +5%/lvl damage bonus Someone who claims those are even remotely comparable has some education to do about gun damage. With 5 heavy drones, a Myrmidon would do general HAC damage. Like the Drake and others do now. With the small bay, a Myrmidon can choose to do either sub-HAC damage that will be gone fast leaving the ship helpless, or do t1 cruiser damage. Whee. Maybe now you will finally realize what it is to fly a Ferox to a Brutix! Game on!

Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:49:00 - [241] Originally by: Black Scorpio Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there! Ah, I see the trolls are waking up again. My example was just to show that if you think it's ok that the Gallente BC does t1 cruiser damage, then you should have no problem with the Caldari BC also being dropped down to Caracal level. Only fair, after all. And no, I don't want the Drake nerfed. But since it does HAC-equivalent damage, I damn well want the same for all the other tier2's also. The others are already pretty much there, Myrmidon is not. If needs be, I'm ok with it losing a turret hardpoint (5 -> 4 turrets). But it absolutely needs the bigger drone bay in order to function as a drone BC. Drake is pretty much equal to Cerberus. Myrmidon is a slightly boosted Vexor (t1 cruiser). That's the mismatch, and it needs correcting.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:56:00 - [242] Originally by: Black Scorpio b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Umm, what? The Brutix sucks, in general. Sure it has high dps if it gets to range, but it moves like a pig even with MWD and is very cap-dependent. I'd give pretty even odds in a Ferox vs Brutix fight, totally dependent on tactics, fittings and pilot skill. I don't fly the Ferox myself, but one of my corpmates does and she racks up a nice amount of kills with her Ferox. She even took on an Absolution (by mistake :) and survived to tell the tale (had to run, though). And anyways: even if there was an imbalance (which I doubt exists), what has that got to do with anything. In your logic, is it ok to have a new ship clearly gimped because some of the older ships are good? What kind of half-assed logic is that? How would you like it if the new Caldari battleship sucked totally, and people would respond to your complaints with "well, you guys already have the Raven, stop complaining!"?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:59:00 - [243] Originally by: Black Scorpio Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. Not actually reading the post 4tl! If you can get Heavy Assault Missiles to go 60km I'm pretty impressed. That's what, 30-40km/sec velocity since their flight time is 2-3 seconds. Who cares how far your Heavy missiles go. We weren't talking about them.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:01:00 - [244] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining! Actually Zarch is right, Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range and are the missile equivalent of blasters. They're different from heavy missiles. You lose. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:12:00 - [245] To emphasize: Heavy Assault Missiles. A little word can change things quite a lot. I wouldn't necessarily agree that they are the equivalent to blasters, though. On the BCs certainly with 13km range for rage ass. But on the caracal thats 20km and on the cerb 30km. The range bonus of the missile cruiser makes the "shortrange" missiles a bit to strong IMO. And nevermind the javeling ammo. Right now you get there an 550% range boost from t1, from 15 to 100 km. Which is way too much. To compare, the range boost of jav rockets is 180% and the jav torps 150%.
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:12:00 - [246] Originally by: Galea Scorpii How about you go back to playing WoW! Are you related to Black Scorpio? ...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:19:00 - [247] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there! Ah, I see the trolls are waking up again. My example was just to show that if you think it's ok that the Gallente BC does t1 cruiser damage, then you should have no problem with the Caldari BC also being dropped down to Caracal level. Only fair, after all. And no, I don't want the Drake nerfed. But since it does HAC-equivalent damage, I damn well want the same for all the other tier2's also. The others are already pretty much there, Myrmidon is not. If needs be, I'm ok with it losing a turret hardpoint (5 -> 4 turrets). But it absolutely needs the bigger drone bay in order to function as a drone BC. Drake is pretty much equal to Cerberus. Myrmidon is a slightly boosted Vexor (t1 cruiser). That's the mismatch, and it needs correcting. If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:23:00 - [248] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Umm, what? The Brutix sucks, in general. Sure it has high dps if it gets to range, but it moves like a pig even with MWD and is very cap-dependent. I'd give pretty even odds in a Ferox vs Brutix fight, totally dependent on tactics, fittings and pilot skill. I don't fly the Ferox myself, but one of my corpmates does and she racks up a nice amount of kills with her Ferox. She even took on an Absolution (by mistake :) and survived to tell the tale (had to run, though). And anyways: even if there was an imbalance (which I doubt exists), what has that got to do with anything. In your logic, is it ok to have a new ship clearly gimped because some of the older ships are good? What kind of half-assed logic is that? How would you like it if the new Caldari battleship sucked totally, and people would respond to your complaints with "well, you guys already have the Raven, stop complaining!"? Buddy, check the speeds on the Brutix and the Ferox and don't talk me about ship speeds... And if you went a step further than your nose, I am saying that you aren't somehow complaining when you get the ZOMG ships, but ohhh whine as usually when you don't have another winner over all in a new ship that is coming out. And yes the Brutix is a much, much much better ship in 1v1 vs the Ferox! Ask anyone, including your friend, the Ferox pilot!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:24:00 - [249] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. On the contrary, that was exactly the point that see Heavy misiles are a short range weapon. No they are not. And 60 km is easy with heavy misiles, 70km is a more realistic number. Add all misile skills to lvl 4-5 and take in account occasional ship bonuses. Not actually reading the post 4tl! If you can get Heavy Assault Missiles to go 60km I'm pretty impressed. That's what, 30-40km/sec velocity since their flight time is 2-3 seconds. Who cares how far your Heavy missiles go. We weren't talking about them.
Galea Scorpii	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:26:00 - [250] Originally by: Razin Originally by: Galea Scorpii How about you go back to playing WoW! Are you related to Black Scorpio? I can see now why that must be thought.. however no!

Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:32:00 - [251] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining! Actually Zarch is right, Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range and are the missile equivalent of blasters. They're different from heavy missiles. You lose. Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved. Not to mention what kind of retarded idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned). Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:42:00 - [252] Originally by: Black Scorpio If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility. Well, I'd be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details). ...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source). So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:48:00 - [253] Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 27/10/2006 17:49:21 Originally by: Black Scorpio Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved. Not to mention what kind of retarded idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned). Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions! Again you're wrong. Zach and I were both talking about Heavy Assault Missiles. Not the T2 "Fury" heavy missiles. Heavy Assault Missiles come out in Kali. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:50:00 - [254] Quote: Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. Me thinks that Black Scorpio doesn't actually check his facts before posting. Or he simply can't differentiate between two completely seperate types of ammo. Now, Scorpio, on your one hand you have your Heavy Assault Missiles. They have a MAX range (non-rigged) with MAX skills of about 15km on the Drake. Flight time x Velocity on the missiles, while equipped with max skills = 15km. Now, on your other hand, Scorpio, you have Heavy Missiles. Note I left off the word "Assault" in there. You following me? Because if not you're probably going to make a post like you did earlier where you completely disregarded the difference between the two. Flight time x Velocity on the Heavy Missiles while equipped on a Drake and yes, you'll get something in the 60km range. To sum up: Heavy Assault Missiles - Max range 15km on the Drake (non-rigged). Heavy missiles - Max range over 60kmish on the Drake (non-rigged). So when people say that the HAM's (heavy assault missiles) are short range weapons, they are indeed correct. They are the cruiser equivalent of rockets or torpedos, and that right there is why I don't think CCP will be removing the shield resistance bonus and adding a missile velocity bonus to the Drake. The Drake very much seems to have been tailor made for the HAM's. It's PG and CPU are just perfect for fitting 7 of them, and still having room for an acceptable tank. What you'd get with a missile velocity bonus is good DPS (the Harbringer and Hurricane still blow the Drake away when it comes to DPS) at an even greater range. The weakness of a HAM-fitted Drake right now is range, and that's crucial to the way the Devs designed it, in my opinion. In order to get good DPS out of the ship, you have to close within 15km of your target on the slowest and most cumbersome of the Tier 2 BC's. So what does that mean? Well...you could always have a dedicated Rapier assigned to you webbing the target to oblivion and back, but balance issues need to set aside a teammate from the equation. Instead, if you want to close in on any of the other Battlecruisers or below, you're going to need to fit an AB or MWD. With a passive setup, you don't have the PG for a MWD, meaning that you are forced to go active. And with an AB fitted, any BC or below that also has one is going to run circles around you. As such, you're sacrificing tank in order to fit a module needed to close in on your target. This carries over to missions/complexes too. How many times have NPCs in those orbitted you at 20-30km? From my experience, there is always at least one type of NPC in missions/complexes that orbits you at that distance. The Drake, in a full-tank no propulsion-boosted setup won't be able to close on them. ;) So if you're fitting HAM's, you're not fitting a full tank.
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:52:00 - [255] Edited by: Temo Jick on 27/10/2006 17:54:31 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility. Well, I'd be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details). ...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source). So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper. Take all its high slots for all I care. I just want a working drone boat. Edit: just inserted the word 'working' thats rather important.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:55:00 - [256] Originally by: Temo Jick Take all its high slots for all I care. I just want a working drone boat. Amen to that.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:55:00 - [257] The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. Myrmidon: remove one turret (leaves 4 guns, 4 utility). Boost drone bay to 175-200m3. That would give the all-important 5th heavy drone and (even more importantly) the spare drones. The loss of a turret compensates for the added drone DPS. It could now properly function as a drone boat, while still having some non-drone firepower. Comments? Any problems with this?
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:59:00 - [258] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility. Well, I'd be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details). ...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source). So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper. More like a max of 6 highs at best is enough for that type of ship! Utility or not. Sometimes a NOS does more damage than a turret... hm... what a thought...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:00:00 - [259] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 27/10/2006 17:49:21 Originally by: Black Scorpio Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved. Not to mention what kind of retarded idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned). Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions! Again you're wrong. Zach and I were both talking about Heavy Assault Missiles. Not the T2 "Fury" heavy missiles. Heavy Assault Missiles come out in Kali. Well maybe if you clarify what you are talking about then people will understand you. And yes the current Heavy misiles are called Heavy Assault Misiles too!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:02:00 - [260] Originally by: Black Scorpio More like a max of 6 highs at best is enough for that type of ship! Utility or not. Sometimes a NOS does more damage than a turret... hm... what a thought... The Myrmidon's relatively small grid already limits the number of med nosfes you can fit, they need a lot of grid per module.

Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:07:00 - [261] Originally by: Calculon Quote: This carries over to missions/complexes too. How many times have NPCs in those orbitted you at 20-30km? From my experience, there is always at least one type of NPC in missions/complexes that orbits you at that distance. The Drake, in a full-tank no propulsion-boosted setup won't be able to close on them. ;) So if you're fitting HAM's, you're not fitting a full tank. Dude, I really don't care about complexes, If i have to go through one, say for Cosmos missions that allow up to a BC I'll just jump in my Nighthawk. Much more easier. + I like the leather upholstery and the ivory on the inside of it too If anyone circles me at 15-20km I just use regular T1 Heavies, hell I use them anyway, b/c of the other variety's cumbersome limitations!
Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:12:00 - [262] Just remember that you can't swap out to regular heavies in using the Heavy Assault Launcher. It's designed for Heavy Assault Missiles only, as far as I can tell. Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :)
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:23:00 - [263] IMO, pretty much any change to the Myrmidon would be an improvement. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:31:00 - [264] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Calculon Just remember that you can't swap out to regular heavies in using the Heavy Assault Launcher. It's designed for Heavy Assault Missiles only, as far as I can tell. Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :) Can't wait for all these apparently "great" improvements I still don't see a problem, we'll just see 4x HM 3x HAM setups and the like. Which is a good thing... I mean, how many variations of a Raven setup are there? What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:36:00 - [265] Originally by: Calculon ....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :) Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults.
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:50:00 - [266] Originally by: Black Scorpio Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. You just compleatly owned yourself. He isn't talking about heavy missiles, hence the reason he says heavy _assault_ missiles, which _are_ short range. Their new. #1 reason not to be a rude ***** is because you might be ill-informed, or fail to understand what is going on, and then look like a total fool.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:54:00 - [267] Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36 7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt what about the absolution? What about the absolution? This thread is about the new Battlecruisers.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:59:00 - [268] Originally by: Illuminaty Originally by: Black Scorpio Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. You just compleatly owned yourself. He isn't talking about heavy missiles, hence the reason he says heavy _assault_ missiles, which _are_ short range. Their new. #1 reason not to be a rude ***** is because you might be ill-informed, or fail to understand what is going on, and then look like a total fool. Aahahahah, you totally got me, uhh,, wait this remark of y ours is not funny, It's crap!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:00:00 - [269] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Calculon ....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :) Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults. I also hope your alt that you post off gets deleted by mistake when they implement Kali!
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:07:00 - [270] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining! Instead of throwing around your insults and hypocracy (missile launcher skills on 1? gallente alts? etc etc how is that not flaming?) stop and LISTEN. Heavy ASSAULT Missiles not Heavy Missiles You know, those new missiles that have been added? Or perhaps you were too busy flaming to look at all the changes? Go look at the stats on the new missiles and then tell me how you are going to fire them out to 60km. Zarch AlDain

Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:13:00 - [271] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Calculon ....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :) Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults. Aramendel, I'm willing to bet that the 100km range is incorrect. I'm betting that we'll be looking at something closer to 50km for the T2 precisions, rather than 100km. 50km is still quite a ways, but 100km is a bit rediculous.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:14:00 - [272] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Zarch AlDain In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat. Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing. Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short. As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you! 1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds). 2. Are of the general scenario: a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm. c) We've tested it and it really sucks. to these: 1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded 2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space. b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase. c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is. To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing. I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining! Instead of throwing around your insults and hypocracy (missile launcher skills on 1? gallente alts? etc etc how is that not flaming?) stop and LISTEN. Heavy ASSAULT Missiles not Heavy Missiles You know, those new missiles that have been added? Or perhaps you were too busy flaming to look at all the changes? Go look at the stats on the new missiles and then tell me how you are going to fire them out to 60km. I'm listening oh Friend of Everyone!
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:22:00 - [273] Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous. Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target. "I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!" As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship. CEO - Art of War
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:32:00 - [274] Originally by: Nebuli Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous. Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target. "I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!" As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship. That will be fun actually a totally drone boat with no high slots, ... get as much drone space as you want then :) heh :) A nice specialized ship that in masses would be nearly indestructible... small carriers... In this case should also get a distance control bonus. You people starting to like me yet?
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:43:00 - [275] Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
SmokeDog	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:43:00 - [276] Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though.
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [277] Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. I think he was coming around to the drone side a bit there, lets not scare him off ^.^ To Smokedog, with just level one in BC the Myrmidon will be just as bad off. Ship bonuses make a huge differances.
Max Hardcase Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [278] Myrmidon : Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY ! Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3. No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume. The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things. Fixed ! Next problem please.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [279] Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:55:00 - [280] Originally by: SmokeDog Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though. Well, with 2 BCU2 and rage you can get over 600 dps with max skills (and 5 hobgoblins). With javelin assaults you can push it to almost 500 dps for up to 60 km atm.

Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:57:00 - [281] Originally by: Max Hardcase Myrmidon : Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY ! Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3. No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume. The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things. Fixed ! Next problem please. Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered. CEO - Art of War
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:58:00 - [282] Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours. YAYYY
Pattern Clarc The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:59:00 - [283] moved.... Basically This would be awesome.... 11-16% damage modifer with the same size drone bay. or "Allows the operatation of 1 more drone" With the drone bay of 120m3 That means 2 waves of 6 medium drones.. Or one wave of ultra gank 4 heavies and 2 mediums... With no gun/missile bonuses, I think this would be inline with the other teir 2 battlecruisers... It doesn't break lore. The domi gets 2 damage bonuses, hence the myrmidon shouldn't out dps it with 4 heavies and 2 mediums +drone damage bonus and medium guns... It also puts to bed the "omg, 5 heavies, but liek, whats the point of the domi" argument even though it's already a flamsy one tbh. It's something new and exciting and innovativly redefines the "drone boat" concept... i'd like to see 6 drones on the hype too, however thats another story... Feel free to work out the maths and the combat implications of this idea! I'd also like to know myself!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:59:00 - [284] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: SmokeDog Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though. Well, with 2 BCU2 and rage you can get over 600 dps with max skills (and 5 hobgoblins). With javelin assaults you can push it to almost 500 dps for up to 60 km atm. Hey Alt, what is the penalty again for using the Rage "HAM"s that you so much push forward?
Captain Raynor	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:02:00 - [285] Originally by: Temo Jick Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. I think he was coming around to the drone side a bit there, lets not scare him off ^.^ To Smokedog, with just level one in BC the Myrmidon will be just as bad off. Ship bonuses make a huge differances. Yes I know, I'm just saying that the DPS on the Drake is good but not really spectacular.. I have 15mil in missile op, but my skills for Drake blow at the moment (bcruiser 1, ham 2), 300 DPS isn't bad for my current skill level with the ship + weapons, but I don't see the DPS really getting much higher than 500 with a max range of 15KM.. people are talking like the Drake is a 1k DPS ship or something. =P Drake + Rage Heavy Assault is probably going to be pretty good though vs battleships.. The real Jim Raynor.
Max Hardcase Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:06:00 - [286] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Max Hardcase Myrmidon : Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY ! Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3. No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume. The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things. Fixed ! Next problem please. Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered. Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ? Seriously though the limitations of bonus to "correct size" drone types should have been done a long time ago. It makes sense for guns and launchers, makes sense for drones as well. Hmm if they really want to make it a standoff Droneboat why not add a 10%/level to drone MWD speed as well
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:12:00 - [287] The fact is that you can already use heavy drones on the Myrmidon. I don't see how adding an extra heavy is making it uber. I don't see a problem with making it a mini-domi. After all, it doesn't have a hybrid bonus like the domi. Like I've said in previous posts, giving the Myrmidon a large drone bay doesn't increase the DPS all that much. It just makes sure that it has extras to use. Although, I personally think the rep bonus is a nerf in itself considering the HP increases. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:14:00 - [288] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 20:16:44 Originally by: Max Hardcase Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ? You're not being totally clear here. If you mean that the Myr will be a Dom if it can use 5 heavy drones, you're forgetting: - 5 med guns with no damage bonus - 6 large guns with +5%/lvl damage bonus That's a big difference. The Myr needs 5 heavy drones. Remove a turret if you must, but it needs those 5 heavies plus some spares. The other suggested fixes have problems. Boosting the drone bonus but having it only apply to med drones can lead to balance problems, do you really want med drones that do close-to-heavy damage while still traveling at med drone speeds? Probably not, if you're on the receiving end. And as for giving the ship >5 drones it can control, I'm not sure the devs want large drone swarms -- getting rid of them was the whole point of the last big drone change. If the Myr is supposed to be a drone BC, it needs to be a "mini-Dominix". Now it's a Vexor with some chrome and furry dice.
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:17:00 - [289] +1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:20:00 - [290] Originally by: Centurin +1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. Oh yeah.

Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:21:00 - [291] Originally by: Centurin +1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. not one more drone per level, just a static extra drone for the battlecruiser skill
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:23:00 - [292] Edited by: Temo Jick on 27/10/2006 20:25:54 Originally by: Max Hardcase Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Max Hardcase Myrmidon : Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY ! Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3. No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume. The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things. Fixed ! Next problem please. Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered. Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ? Seriously though the limitations of bonus to "correct size" drone types should have been done a long time ago. It makes sense for guns and launchers, makes sense for drones as well. Hmm if they really want to make it a standoff Droneboat why not add a 10%/level to drone MWD speed as well It only makes sense for drones if this BC can't field more then 5. Personally I donÆt want that it means more lag and itÆs a step back to eveÆs past, but hay its better then the broken BC we have right now so I'll take it if I have to. BC's so far have not had bigger guns/launchers then cruisers because they could have more of them. But you can only have 5 drones out unless you fly a Guardian Vexor (super rare for a reason) or a carrier. That means a drone ship of the BC class has to either have more medium drones for its damage or bigger drones for its damage. Personally I think more then 5 medium drones would be a more overpowered option then 10 heavyÆs as medium drones are faster smaller have better tracking and you can get tech II with far less training then you need for tech II heavyÆs. Personally I wouldnÆt even use regular heavy drones over regular mediums because of the bad tracking.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:36:00 - [293] Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:39:00 - [294] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:45:25 Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:42:51 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE It could use about 100 more CPU to be equivelent as well[90 or so at max skills], not to mention the capacitor with 7 guns firing 25% faster even at a 50% discount... Then again, ill take what I can get at 7/4/7 with 2100 PG. The problem of course, is then balancing the thing with beam lasers and smaller laser weaponry[which saves more PG per gun than AC's/Artillerys do]. If you decided to fit focused instead of heavies you could fit two 1600 MM plates at 2100 PG. And a similar situation involving the difference between focused medium beams and heavy beams.[DPS difference on both is roughly 30%]. As well the ship wouldnt have a problem fitting heavy beams compared to the hurricane which would struggle to fit the big artillery cannons. Fixing laser PG/CPU use would be a better solution, but 100 CPU/600 PG and 7/4/7 is a good stopgap.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:39:00 - [295] Edited by: Aramendel on 27/10/2006 20:41:25 Originally by: Black Scorpio Hey Alt, what is the penalty again for using the Rage "HAM"s that you so much push forward? Because the other races t2 heavy damage ammo has no penalities.. oh wait. On a sidenote, when did I ever "push the penality" forward? Oh well, I guess I have to talk with the members in my noob starter corp a bit more. Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus Agreed.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:41:00 - [296] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours. YAYYY I know I'm just feeding the troll here, but seriously, you need to grow up. Reading your posts makes me cringe. You have contributed nothing to this thread but ignorance and flames. Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship.
Dwight Hammerhead Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:43:00 - [297] Giev Nighthawk one more missile slot for a total of 7, this allwing it to do more damage than the drake, other than that I dont rly see a reason to fly the expensive nighthawk when u can always go with a fully ensurable T1 version of it. Giev more missile slot.. or bump! _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:44:00 - [298] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:42:51 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE It could use about 100 more CPU to be equivelent as well[90 or so at max skills], not to mention the capacitor with 7 guns firing 25% faster even at a 50% discount... Then again, ill take what I can get at 7/4/7 with 2100 PG. The problem of course, is then balancing the thing with beam lasers and smaller laser weaponry[which saves more PG per gun than AC's/Artillerys do]. If you decided to fit focused instead of heavies you could fit two 1600 MM plates at 2100 PG. And a similar situation involving the difference between focused medium beams and heavy beams.[DPS difference on both is roughly 30%] Fixing laser PG/CPU use would be a better solution, but 100 CPU/600 PG and 7/4/7 is a good stopgap. imho, the limiting factor when fitting amarrian ships should always be CPU and not grid. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:46:00 - [299] Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Giev Nighthawk one more missile slot for a total of 7, this allwing it to do more damage than the drake, other than that I dont rly see a reason to fly the expensive nighthawk when u can always go with a fully ensurable T1 version of it. Giev more missile slot.. or bump! Hear is one reason Role Bonus: 99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need Granted its the only reason i can think of.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:48:00 - [300] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:49:34 Originally by: Grimpak imho, the limiting factor when fitting amarrian ships should always be CPU and not grid. I wont challenge that, i was just trying to show what makes the ships about as comparable in fitting for the largest short range weapons as they are currently running the same slots with about the same damage. The differences with the CPU/PG are that the Hurricane doesnt use cap and uses ammo instead and the Harbinger is slower, and larger

Dwight Hammerhead Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:54:00 - [301] Lol I have a vulture for when i have to fit gang modules, thank you. A tier 2 t1 BC having the same dmg as command ship? I dont see this happening to the other races _____________________________________________ Too bad at photoshop and too poor to buy a sig
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:59:00 - [302] Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Lol I have a vulture for when i have to fit gang modules, thank you. A tier 2 t1 BC having the same dmg as command ship? I dont see this happening to the other races Sorry wasnÆt trying to make an argument against you, caldari ships arenÆt my area of experience. Was just volunteering a reason that sprang to mind.
Evelgrivion Cohort. Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:21:00 - [303] 11 pages of argument and no developer input, just lots of rabbling and argument about the myrmidon's drone bay, the raw destructive power of the drake, bonuses, the Hurricane's speed, and the seeming lack of the need for a ship like the Harbinger as it stands... anything that ive missed? What I would love to see at this point is the opinions of the developers on the subject matter - and with that input a rule of no flaming; reasonable (if passionate) debate over whether or not you agree. Honestly player bickering gets old after awhile... If you could spare some time to talk to us about this Tuxford, TomB, and everyone else involved, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the player input »\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/»\_/ Its Cohort. with a C.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:21:00 - [304] Originally by: Butter Dog Reading your posts makes me cringe. You have contributed nothing to this thread but ignorance and flames. So don't read them champ. Of course I am not contributing to your post cause all you do is Whine for more drone space. How can anyone that is not seeing further than their nose contribute towards that.. oh nice another UBER burry all in drones boat. How cool. Maybe you need to do a bit of growing up and use your brain for a chance when fighting, instead of letting the drones to that for ya... pal... Originally by: Butter Dog As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship. I am happy for it. After all you got such an overpowered BC 1 compared to the other races, that now the second one seems under par with the other races. Oh well, stick to your 1st BC. You will save some money from not using the new one anyway.. hah..
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:23:00 - [305] Originally by: Temo Jick Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead Lol I have a vulture for when i have to fit gang modules, thank you. A tier 2 t1 BC having the same dmg as command ship? I dont see this happening to the other races Sorry wasnÆt trying to make an argument against you, caldari ships arenÆt my area of experience. Was just volunteering a reason that sprang to mind. Exactly, should we consider that a troll then ?
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:25:00 - [306] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Black Scorpio You people starting to like me yet? When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you. My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours. YAYYY I know I'm just feeding the troll here, but seriously, you need to grow up. Reading your posts makes me cringe. You have contributed nothing to this thread but ignorance and flames. Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship. Go feed your dog some butter btw! Keep flaming ***ente fanboy, you are getting nothing more on this ship!!!! You'll have to stick to buttering doggies. muhahahhaha
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:25:00 - [307] Originally by: Nebuli Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered. easy it wouldnt. it dont impinge on the domi or hell even the ishtar. Domi can still fit bigger guns and a better tank and the ishtar well its the ishtar heh. -----------------------------------------------
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:32:00 - [308] Originally by: Butter Dog Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship. I'm in total agreement here. Brutix does more damage and has a repper bonus too. Only a Brutix needs a MWD and booster charges to do that, both of which don't work for missions. Vexors are too fragile to run level 3 missions, and Dominix are too expensive on level 2 income. So thats really what the Myr is. A level 3 mission boat. Only having 100m3 of drone space on a mission boat isn't a factor because you just don't lose drones to NPCs. Giving a mission drone boat a 125m3 bay would also mean 'dominix damage' on missions since you don't fit a lot of guns or fire them much. So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge.
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:42:00 - [309] Originally by: Illuminaty Originally by: Butter Dog Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop. As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship. I'm in total agreement here. Brutix does more damage and has a repper bonus too. Only a Brutix needs a MWD and booster charges to do that, both of which don't work for missions. Vexors are too fragile to run level 3 missions, and Dominix are too expensive on level 2 income. So thats really what the Myr is. A level 3 mission boat. Only having 100m3 of drone space on a mission boat isn't a factor because you just don't lose drones to NPCs. Giving a mission drone boat a 125m3 bay would also mean 'dominix damage' on missions since you don't fit a lot of guns or fire them much. So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge. Make that a medium mining barge. In most cases the dommie will out do that too.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:45:00 - [310] Originally by: Illuminaty So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge. Brutix out mines it. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson

Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:51:00 - [311] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Illuminaty So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge. Brutix out mines it. Not when your mining red crosses in a mission instead of veldspar rocks in a belt.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:16:00 - [312] Edited by: Derran on 27/10/2006 22:17:31 Originally by: Alex Harumichi How about you use yours and tell me how 5 heavy + 5 med hybrids with no damage bonus equals the DPS of 5 heavy drone + 6 large hybrid with +5% per level damage bonus, eh? I pretty much fly only Gallente now. Can you give me a setup of a Dominix that actually works with large hybrids AND a tank that shows proves the point you are trying to make? I hope you don't mean heavy electron IIs either. Bleach. Myrmidon setup I am considering is T2 ACs with some NOS since it doesn't have a hybrid damage bonus anyway. Should save cap and grid and leave plenty of CPU and Grid for a heavy tank.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:47:00 - [313] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 22:54:17 Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 22:47:34 Originally by: Evelgrivion the seeming lack of the need for a ship like the Harbinger as it stands... anything that ive missed? No, everyone pretty much gets the point that the Harbinger is a great addition the the amarri line of ships. It fills a hole in the BC classification for ammar and fits in line with their other similar ships. Maybe you are thinking of the Abaddon? That goes in the BS thread though. The problem with the Harbinger is not that there is no point to it, the problem is that is is completly overshadowed by the Hurricane, and needs to be made better or made unique[7/4/7 or 8 turrets with cap and PG to fit it] to compete with the other Teir 2 battlecruisers. edit: The easiest fix is to simply change the CPU/PG requirements for pulse lasers to be more similar to autocannons or comparable blasters [sans ammo differences, heavy pulses do less damage than Heavy Electron Blasters for instance, blasters sacrifice a lot of range, but the weakest version is stronger than the strongest laser so...]. Co-incidentaly, this also fixes the maller, omen, and prophesy
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 23:25:00 - [314] Originally by: Hllaxiu Brutix out mines it. Yep, done it myself a few times when about the only useful fitting you could get on a brutix was 7x miner II's. However, addressing the topic at hand, the myrmidon. I think many are seeing 8x medium nos II on this thing and that's what's driving them insane, because so far I've not seen really a good reason for it to not have a larger drone bay than it currently has. Since it has no gun bonus, this means by design nearly all of it's firepower comes from drones. I'll state some numbers for those who don't know; maximum drone damage (5x ogre II, BC 5, drone interfacing 5, heavy drones 5, gallente drone specalization 5) is 475.2 DPS. You can ofc add guns on it to get more DPS, but the lack of a ship bonus means that you won't be getting a huge return out of this. The damage output of this ship is and will be driven by it's drones. This is the issue that it has currently is that with a 100m3 drone bay, same skills as above, using medium drones that DPS is 237.6. It's just not comparable. Now, you can use 4x Ogre II and get 380.16, which isn't that bad, but you will have no reloads and no backup. This is a key because with combat becoming longer and longer it makes more and more sense to shoot the drones. If you're going to be fighting a ship which uses a weapon system that is able to be targetable and destroyable, it's really foolish not to do so if you can as killing the drones negates most of the offensive firepower. After the drones are done the myrmidon is also done, for the most part. So the situation currently is that with the ship as currently designed you have two options; you can either have low DPS and have a reserve or other drone options, or have average-low DPS compared to other BC and have no reserve and no options leaving you open to being negated by a smart opponent. When you run the numbers in comparison the 475 DPS from drones if it were to be able to use 5 Ogre II is not excessive. It should be noted, again, this is with max drone skills, and most players won't be able to do this in reality. In addition, due to tactical realities, Ogre II's aren't always the smart weapon of choice, and therefore the theoritical max damage DPS will frequently be lower. It therefore can be concluded that 5x heavy drones in of itself is not imbalancing. Where it could become unbalanced is when you bring in other factors, and this is the area that needs to be addressed. If the drone bay is to be expanded to a size that I think is worthwile, it's important to limit the offensive output from other sources, either guns or by other means (nos/neut). What I think is the best way to do this is changing the ship to the following configuration: Bonuses - No changes. Done bay - 175m3. This is the same drone bay size as a typhoon, which isn't even a drone ship. This gives you 5x heavy w/ 2 reloads, if desired, or the ability to use a mixture of other drone sizes for flexibility. Slot configuration - 8x highslots is not only too many but also more than a few are fairly useless. Change this to 6 highslots, 5 midslots and 6 lowslots. This would enable it to tank better than the brutix in exchange for the lower DPS. Make all highslots turret hardpoints - frankly, having 6 obvious turret hardpoints on the ship and only being able to use 5 just looks dumb from a athestic standpoint. Powergrid - REDUCE. This is a key. In order to prevent the DPS from increasing to unreasonable levels the gun caliber size must be limited and the number of nosses must also be limited by keeping the powergrid output low. By doing this you end up with a ship that does good DPS, has the drone bay to do it's job effectively, and overall works far better than what is proposed now. Raptor and Ares Fix
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 23:29:00 - [315] Originally by: Goumindong No, everyone pretty much gets the point that the Harbinger is a great addition the the amarri line of ships. It fills a hole in the BC classification for ammar and fits in line with their other similar ships. Maybe you are thinking of the Abaddon? That goes in the BS thread though. The problem with the Harbinger is not that there is no point to it, the problem is that is is completly overshadowed by the Hurricane, and needs to be made better or made unique[7/4/7 or 8 turrets with cap and PG to fit it] to compete with the other Teir 2 battlecruisers. It really makes no sense that the minmatar BC and the amarr BC have the same number of lowslots - matter of fact their slot distribution is identical, which is again odd. The DPS of the hurricane is and always will be superior than the harbinger because it has 2 damage bonuses and the amarr ship doesn't. What the amarr ship should do is tank better, due to cap and more importantly, more low slots do do it with. 7/4/7 seems to be a smart way to go, for starters. Raptor and Ares Fix
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.27 23:32:00 - [316] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE harbinger problems can be say more loud but not more clear It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Golden Helmet Caldari DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:19:00 - [317] not gonna sort through on all the topics here. but this is regarding the Gallente BC: basicly, just add 25m^3 to the drone bay, and change the armor rep bonus to a hybrid bonus (preferably damage). it won't overpower it completely, because it's drone bay is still relativly small, but it would increase it's DPS while nerfing it's tank a touch. just my opinion on it, havent gotten to try the other BC's yet.
Elechia	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:35:00 - [318] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. Nyxus PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else. Nyxus YES PLEASE Yup. Matari shouldnt have the same amount of low slots AND more grid than the Amarr BC after fitting. Harbinger needs this or it will be completely outclassed by the Hurricane. Elechia
Kooraia	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:42:00 - [319] Edited by: Kooraia on 28/10/2006 00:43:59 Myr: I would change the following: - Change all Drone Mods to High Slot Items - Add Dronebay m3 but... - Give Damage Bonus 10% to light and Med and 5% to Heavy and Sentry - Remove one Turret HP (but not the HP itself) Why: - Droneboats should use Dronemods in High and not Guns - The existing Bay is far to small to survive a fight - Add a "little" nerf for using Heavys on it, Drone Mods in high should compensate the missing guns - See above /ignoring on for all troll/flames from the small black insect alts
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 01:38:00 - [320] Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. sounds like a good idea to me. seeing how similar those two ships are the advantage of having capless weapons which on top of it deal almost the same ammount of damage in damagetypes good against armor is far too big here. alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger: 8/3/8 slots 8 turrets obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here. very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype.

Flabida jaba	Posted - 2006.10.28 02:29:00 - [321] All the teir II BC's should get a dedicated modual! Once activated it would permanently deactivate "Black Scorpio's" Forum access. Oh the humanity
Care Blind Gallente Yumpalistic Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.28 02:54:00 - [322] Edited by: Care Blind on 28/10/2006 02:54:51 why, oh why, isn't anyone taking into consideration THE EFFECT OF THE CHANGES BEING DISCUSSED ON THE COMMAND SHIPS. this is getting on my nerves beyond belief.. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. are you kidding me.. the poor absolution
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:19:00 - [323] Edited by: Goumindong on 28/10/2006 03:19:56 Originally by: Care Blind Edited by: Care Blind on 28/10/2006 02:54:51 why, oh why, isn't anyone taking into consideration THE EFFECT OF THE CHANGES BEING DISCUSSED ON THE COMMAND SHIPS. this is getting on my nerves beyond belief.. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. are you kidding me.. the poor absolution Or... Put the Hurricane in the game The poor absolution. Absolution will still do more damage at command ships 5[just like the Hurricane issue], and will have loads better tank[or much more damage and still a better tank] Just about everything on the prophesy platform needs to be looked at with regards to powergrid and function, and the absolution ought to be on the Harbinger platform. However, that doesnt change issue at hand, which is the new teir 2 battlecruisers, and the Harbinger is a joke compared to the Hurricane without changes.
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:52:00 - [324] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Originally by: Nyxus Harbinger: Originally by: Goumingdog According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap. This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots. Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid. This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu. sounds like a good idea to me. seeing how similar those two ships are the advantage of having capless weapons which on top of it deal almost the same ammount of damage in damagetypes good against armor is far too big here. alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger: 8/3/8 slots 8 turrets obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here. very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype. Hell no. For the very first time we have a T1 medium ship with 4 med slots, it's nothing we should wanna change. 7 turrets is just fine, but the ship needs more grid to fit the best turrets. Focus pulse is hardly a valid option. Quote: <tuxford> Ah yes the Amarrians. Now bear with me apparantly I don't play Amarr or have ever heard of them, I read it on the forums.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.28 05:52:00 - [325] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne sounds like a good idea to me. seeing how similar those two ships are the advantage of having capless weapons which on top of it deal almost the same ammount of damage in damagetypes good against armor is far too big here. alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger: 8/3/8 slots 8 turrets obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here. very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype. Does it bug anyone else that a battleship should have exactly the same slot layout as a battlecruiser? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Lrootrnas	Posted - 2006.10.28 07:39:00 - [326] 3 mids will make the ship suck sweaty simian reproductive organs, even if you gave it 12 highs and the hardpoints/fitting to use them. Hands off the 4th mid you knuckledraggers Nyxus' proposal ftw. Oh and there is no need to take a turret off the Myrm when you give it 250m3 drone bay. BCs should outdamage HACs, not equal them... look at all the weak BCs, they have one thing in common - they don't outdamage the type-equivalent HAC. Give it a 6th turret, but keep the fittings the same, perfecto.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 07:40:00 - [327] Edited by: keepiru on 28/10/2006 07:40:07 Stupid alt >_< ^^^^^ was me ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.10.28 08:05:00 - [328] Repost! Regarding the Myrmidon... and how to balance it better ( havent flown 1, just going by everyones whinging) Ok so we've all seen the absolute power of an ECM dominix, without blasters (vampadomi) it has enough DPS to kill you eventually while keeping you jammed and in place comfortably, The new ECM Changes may nerf this a bit by making it a less viable ECM platform. Gallente cruisers have crap midslots so suck at ECM. The ships getting buffed up for ECM are all caldari, the blackbird is getting love as well as its counterparts, so ecm will be more viable, fair enough.... Why not fix the myrmidon this way? Give it ECM Bonus's and enough midslots to use them... Or is ECM only for the caldari now? Gallente will want some ECM boats and i for one love using it, i havent used the myrmidon but with good ecm/drone capabilitys it could be quite an effective ship both solo in and gangs in a support role... Let me know what you think, and afterall, theres only so much you can do with drones, putting the myrmidon between vexor and dominix will just make it crap... give us 2 advantages and we'll love it! Very Happy I'm gonna trust CCP to fix it sooner or later, they havent let me down yet, so lets try and be constructive thanks (one last thing... the most damaging setup you can put on a vexor is 2 heavys, 2 mediums and 1 light drone, this is good for better damage but that 1 light drone means that as assault ship can eat your face and your heavy drones... the extra 25m3 is enough for a whole wave of lights.... lets not be too hasty....)
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:13:00 - [329] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger: 8/3/8 slots 8 turrets obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here. very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype. 4 mids !!!!!!! finally we get a ship with 4 mids !!! dont take it i would love 7/4/7 since im not going to use the utility never but if its not posible then dont touch it and let it remain as 8/4/6! It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Mesasone Gallente Vogon Deconstruction Fleet Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:19:00 - [330] ECM is the caldari racial electronic warfare, and will not likely be given a bonus on a gallente ship. Although, Sensor dampening would be an option. However, the EW + drones combo is pretty overpowered, less with non-jamming types of EW, but none the less. Also, since nos now has more time to do it's thing (effectively buffing it)... let's not give birth to a new i-win platform. I love the domi, but I'm sick of everyone flying it, and I'm sick of the fact that half the people fly it because they almost have to be competitive in PVP. I really like the idea of BCs sort of being a poor mans HAC, slightly weaker in some aspect, stronger in others, overall similar flying styles with some subtile differences. To bring the Myrmidon in the same playing field as the Ishtar, I would give it the following bonii: 10% to drone damage and hitpoints (no change) and 25m3 additional dronebay per level, with a base of 75m3. So it tops out at 200m3 with BC5. Remove one turret hardpoint, and move one highslot to a low slot. Perhaps adjust fitting, as needed. Now the Myrmidon can field 5 heavy drones, which with maxed out skills will give you 475 DPS. Oh baby. C'mon guys, the other BCs can match and surpass this pretty easily, don't be hating on the Myrmidon just because the nos + ecm + drone + tank setup found on the domi these days is overpowered. Killing drones has now become an even more viable option with the HP increase and subsequent increased combat length; please keep that in mind. With these bonii, you would max out at 200m3 - not enough to carry to multiple full waves of heavies, but one and 3 spares, or a mix of different drones. Mean while, the Domi can fit 375m3 or three full waves, as can the Ishtar with HAC 5. Of course the poor EOS is behind both the Ishtar with a max of 300m3 for it's dronebay, and no drone damage bonus (rightfully so with the lack of damage bonus, I might add), but that's another issue altogther. You've reduced it's turret firepower, which wasn't exactly astounding to begin with. With it's damage bonus, the Ishtar has 3.75 'raw' turrets, while the Myrmidon has 4 but no damage bonus, making them fairly equal. The Ishtar retains signficantly higher mobility, a built in tank, and a lower sig radius (less than half!), while the Myrmidon has a significant HP advantage 5625 versus 1798(?) and six lows to mount some kind of tank/fitting mods in. Now, you have a poor mans Ishtar. With nearly double the dronebay, higher speed, greater agility, the Ishtar remains a superior ship by being mobile, and better geared to longer tours away from home, as it won't lose most of it's drone capacity if things get too hot, and it has to bail. I'm not sure which would tank better - the Myrmidon has alot of HP, and if tech 2 ships only get the 25% HP boost, it could be interesting. The built in resistances of the Isthar will play a BIG part, though. While the Myrmidon will slightly outdamage the Isthar on paper, the Isthar being so much more mobile will be much more viable with blasters than the Myrmidon, negating the slight DPS advantage the Myrmidon would have with it's 4 turret hardpoints, which would also come with increased cap and ammo usage I might add. I think it's at least worth testing, personally.

Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:01:00 - [331] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 28/10/2006 10:03:51 eh what i was trying to post back there was 8/3/7 8 turrets was a bit late and apparently i having having problems with the 6+1=7 situation :) also: yes its nice to have 4 meds instead of the usual 3. however as it is right now with the 7 turrets the ship will barely outdamge the hurricane on raw dps while using a lot more cap and being pretty similar in everything else. i would prefer it if it would at least have a serious damage advantage to counter that.
Rahjadan Shardur Minmatar Poisoned Heart	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:01:00 - [332] Originally by: Toaster Oven Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:33:28 <snip> And as to why Harbinger is not up to par. Compare with Hurricane using some viable setups (using Kali ammo stats) Harbinger 7x Heavy Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 601.2 DPS Hurricane 7x 220mm II w/ Hail + 1x Gyrostab II + 1x Hammerhead II + 4x Hobgoblin II = 579.8 DPS So what does the Harbinger sacrifice for that paltry dmg advantage? Hurricane can fit MAR II + 1600mm Tungsten + 10mn MWD II + Med Nos II. Harbinger only has room for MAR II and 10MN AB II. No room for plate or med NOS. So Hurricane tanks better, goes faster, much more cap, much less vulnerable to tracking disruptors, and has smaller sig radius. Tbh why would you choose to fly Harbinger? And what if Harbinger dropped down to Focused Medium Pulse II? Harbinger 7x Focused Medium Pulse II w/ Conflag + 1x Heat Sink II + 5x Valkyrie II = 536.8 DPS Now it can fit a 1600mm plate, but it does less DPS than Hurricane. Whether you choose to fit MWD or AB, it still can't fill it's last high slot with a Med NOS. And it still has less cap available compared to Hurricane. Simply outclassed. Anyone else noticed that the Brutix is doing more damage than Harbinger and Hurricane? ------------------ Life is but a dream...
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:31:00 - [333] No. 3 mids = suck. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:42:00 - [334] Originally by: keepiru No. 3 mids = suck. the geddon would like to disagree with you there. i understand that 3 medslots are not all that great. seeing how i fly only amarrian ships i am very well aware of the problems you face with only a few medslots. if the rest of the ship is a good enough it can make up for that though. as i understand it the ship is supposed to be a gank platform somewhere between omen and geddon. 8/3/7 with a serious damage advantage would fit that better than 7/4/7 with better utility. especially considering how very close the harbinger and hurricane are. anyway either way is fine with me. looking at the ship alone it already seems decent now. its just when you compare it to its obvious counterpart the hurricane that you realize its harsh shortcomings.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:05:00 - [335] No, 3 mids are ok on a BS that does around 1000hp damage before the 50% hp boost. On a BC, in a world with the 50% hp boost, its suck. If you cant have speed mod + injector + web + scrambler you are far more gimped compared to other BCs than with 7 guns and 4 mids, because if you gave the stuff to hold your enemy and dictate range you will ALWAYS cap out before you kill any other BC. Heck, a prophecy will pwn you. Simply not viable in Kali. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:41:00 - [336] well its not like laserboats are good at dictating range anyway. in most cases you cant really go for an mwd due to fitting and cap constraints. anyway like i said earlier 7-4-7 and a serious boost to grid may work as well/maybe even better. actually i would also up the max cap or cap recharge a bit more in this case. i was just trying to show another possibility to overcome its obvious problems. right now the ship is lacking a lot compared to the hurricane.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:50:00 - [337] Meh, 7 Foc. Med. Pulse II, Mwd, Jector and 2 reps fits, that's good enough for me fitting wise. Sure, you cant fit Heavy pulses mwd dual reps and injector, but then the hurricane has to fit 220s instead of 425s for the same fit. Heavy Beam IIs fit better than Tach IIs on amarr battleships, so as far as I'm concerned, the PG/CPU right now is fine, but it needs either: 8th high moved to low, for a 7/4/7 setup 8th turret back and the grid/cpu to use it And a small cap boost, 250 cap over the hurricane don't cut it. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:04:00 - [338] Originally by: keepiru Meh, 7 Foc. Med. Pulse II, Mwd, Jector and 2 reps fits, that's good enough for me fitting wise. Sure, you cant fit Heavy pulses mwd dual reps and injector, but then the hurricane has to fit 220s instead of 425s for the same fit. yes but if you drop to focused med pulses and 220mm autocannons the harbinger doesnt even get to keep the samll raw dps advantage it has with heavy pulse vs 425mm. and while the mwd helps with keeping range you suffer a hard cap penalty and your guns still use a lot more cap than autocannons while doing less desireable damagetypes. Originally by: keepiru it needs either: 8th high moved to low, for a 7/4/7 setup 8th turret back and the grid/cpu to use it And a small cap boost, 250 cap over the hurricane don't cut it. agreed again. just not sure if and 8th turret would not be too much if it has 4 meds.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:13:00 - [339] No, I dont think it would be. Just depends on which direction the devs want to take it, 7 lows means it does comparable DPS to hurricane but with a slightly better tank, 8 guns means more damage but same tank that doesn't last as long. Considering that DPS comparisons don't count the T2 heavy assault launcher on the Hurricane, I dont think that 14% better DPS from just the guns would be out of line considering you'll still have bigger cap draw and be nos-less by necessity in order to do that damage. Incidentally, the Brutix needs enough grid to fit full Ions with mwd jector and dual reps or it'll be smashed into oblivion. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:15:00 - [340] Originally by: madaluap If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay! Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc. It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC. And its about damn time Gallente got put in their place. Having most of your ships being solopwn mobile NOS/ECM/Drones spamming monsters, you DESERVE a crap ship for a change. Let the other 3 races have their cake for once. Den ________________________________________

Denrace Amarr Psykotic Dreams	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:21:00 - [341] Also, I dont get why it isnt glaringly obvious to the devs that Tier 1 Battlecruisers and Command Ships now need a complete overhaul. Whats the point in releasing a new line of T1 ships that makes the upper T2 BC's hopelessly redundant for a fraction of the price (and while being FULLY insurable??) Seems ludicrous to me. Den ________________________________________
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:23:00 - [342] Awww, Den needs a hug ^_^ ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:25:00 - [343] im too lazy to read whole thread so don't hug me drake - ok [my alt will fly this and ship is awesome] hurricane - OK [my personal choice!] harbringer - ok? i don't know maybe more grid myrmidon - bull** need bigger dronebay or its PRETTY freakin' useless It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by:** Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.28 12:37:00 - [344] Edited by: Jacob Holland on 28/10/2006 12:39:36 How about this for the Myrmidon: Keep the dronebay as is, change the drone bonus so that it applies to light and medium drones only (hold your complaints that it's just an oversized Vexor for a moment please)... Then boost the percentage on the bonus. The 10% bonus comes from the old +1 drone per level (Drones [5] gives you five drones, drone interfacing [5] gives you five double effectiveness drones, equivalent to the ten it used to, and then the ship bonus boosts that by 50% to the equivalent of the fifteen drones the Domi used to run). Assuming however that the bonus isn't fixed to allow the drone nerf to be rolled back there is now no reason why it has to be 10%. If the bonus were to be increased to 15%/level then the drone damage would beat that of the Vexor, it wouldn't actually be much but it would be the equivalent of 17.5 drones rather than 15. Even better, boost it to 20%, a 33% boost to drone damage over the Vexor (and if the drone nerf were rolled back you'd have a ship capable of running 20 drones ), you would have five mediums out and five in reserve, better than trying to squeeze four heavies in and gimp your bonuses neh? A 33% damage boost puts it almost equivalent to the Drake (7 launchers with ROF bonus compared to 5 launchers with Kinetic Damage bonus on the Caracal) minus the fact that the Hybrid damage bonus places it equal to the Vexor on that score. Personally I'd use lights, Mediums are too slow and have tracking poor enough (Drone Nav [2], Drone Sharpshooting [4]) that I feel I get more out of lights. It also gives me the option of having yet more in reserve and adding the versatility of a bunch of shield maintenence bots, Damping drones, painting drones or whatever else. Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Jaded	Posted - 2006.10.28 13:31:00 - [345] The harbinger looks great when you only compare it to amarr ships. It doesn't really measure up to the other new bc's, though. Even with the bonus, lasers drain more cap than hybrids. Its second bonus adds ~30% dps, but at the cost of 25% additional cap use. If I'm not mistaken, the other bc's offer comparable dps and tanking while being easier to fit and a lot easier to keep running. I'd like the harbinger (and amarr ships in general, I guess) to get a massive increase in cap size (and thus recharge as well) and a lot more PG, making it the laser platform it's supposed to be.
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.28 14:27:00 - [346] Originally by: Jacob Holland Edited by: Jacob Holland on 28/10/2006 12:39:36 How about this for the Myrmidon: Keep the dronebay as is, change the drone bonus so that it applies to light and medium drones only (hold your complaints that it's just an oversized Vexor for a moment please)... Then boost the percentage on the bonus. The 10% bonus comes from the old +1 drone per level (Drones [5] gives you five drones, drone interfacing [5] gives you five double effectiveness drones, equivalent to the ten it used to, and then the ship bonus boosts that by 50% to the equivalent of the fifteen drones the Domi used to run). Assuming however that the bonus isn't fixed to allow the drone nerf to be rolled back there is now no reason why it has to be 10%. If the bonus were to be increased to 15%/level then the drone damage would beat that of the Vexor, it wouldn't actually be much but it would be the equivalent of 17.5 drones rather than 15. Even better, boost it to 20%, a 33% boost to drone damage over the Vexor (and if the drone nerf were rolled back you'd have a ship capable of running 20 drones ), you would have five mediums out and five in reserve, better than trying to squeeze four heavies in and gimp your bonuses neh? A 33% damage boost puts it almost equivalent to the Drake (7 launchers with ROF bonus compared to 5 launchers with Kinetic Damage bonus on the Caracal) minus the fact that the Hybrid damage bonus places it equal to the Vexor on that score. Personally I'd use lights, Mediums are too slow and have tracking poor enough (Drone Nav [2], Drone Sharpshooting [4]) that I feel I get more out of lights. It also gives me the option of having yet more in reserve and adding the versatility of a bunch of shield maintenence bots, Damping drones, painting drones or whatever else. against other battlecruisers, light drones would really suck.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.28 15:50:00 - [347] Originally by: Denrace Also, I dont get why it isnt glaringly obvious to the devs that Tier 1 Battlecruisers and Command Ships now need a complete overhaul. Whats the point in releasing a new line of T1 ships that makes the upper T2 BC's hopelessly redundant for a fraction of the price (and while being FULLY insurable??) you should file a bug report if your absolution doesnt have 2 more bonuses and a lot higher base resists than the harbinger. mine seems to be fine so far.
Jacob Holland Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.28 15:53:00 - [348] But Mediums at that level wouldn't. I'd use lights - that doesn't mean that lights are the best option It is agreed that with it's current bonuses it doesn't beat the Vexor with mediums and it seems that the drone bay is limited to avoid heavy drones. So is (the equivalent of) 20 medium drones appropriate compared to the Dominix's fifteen heavies? Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Shodana Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:01:00 - [349] Probably been said before, but oh well. Drake with 7L/3t high slot split, 6 mid, 4 low. 5% shield resistance per level and 5% ROF bonus... OMFG. I just left a stain running from the floor to the ceiling. Ferox with 5L/5t high slot split, 5 mid, 4 low. 5% shield resistance per level and 10% to optimal range per level. Ferox is going to become extinct. As is, I have never seen a ferox fit with blasters or rails. Always missile spamming with ewar. So... Why do the caldari have 2 missile spamming BC? Any plans to make the ferox a 7t/3L high slot split now that the caldari have an uber missile spammer or plans to reconfigure the drake to a full turret boat? I don't mind. I am a missile ***** to the core of my being and love the drake's configuration, just seems a bit over the top with 7 launchers, 6 mids, and 4 lows. Not to mention renders the ferox useless.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:14:00 - [350] The Ferox was never intended to be a missile ship. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!

Calculon Gallente The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:48:00 - [351] Originally by: keepiru The Ferox was never intended to be a missile ship. Correct, people just fit it that way ignoring the bonuses as they prefer EVE on easy mode (missiles). They neglect the fact that a rail/blaster Ferox out damages the missile Ferox by quite a substantial margin.
Shodana Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.28 18:21:00 - [352] Originally by: Calculon Originally by: keepiru The Ferox was never intended to be a missile ship. Correct, people just fit it that way ignoring the bonuses as they prefer EVE on easy mode (missiles). They neglect the fact that a rail/blaster Ferox out damages the missile Ferox by quite a substantial margin. So, that's why it's a 5T/5L split. Give someone the option of something that always hits and they'll run with it -either that or be drone mongers :) If the Drake goes through the with the 7L/3T split, why not give the Ferox 8 highlots in a 7 turret, 3 launcher split, keep the mids and lows as is? Although as you stated, "... they prefer EvE on easy mode... " and will just swap over to the drake. On a side note... give the field command ships the new chassis. Please.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.28 18:37:00 - [353] Originally by: keepiru Meh, 7 Foc. Med. Pulse II, Mwd, Jector and 2 reps fits, that's good enough for me fitting wise. Sure, you cant fit Heavy pulses mwd dual reps and injector, but then the hurricane has to fit 220s instead of 425s for the same fit. Heavy Beam IIs fit better than Tach IIs on amarr battleships, so as far as I'm concerned, the PG/CPU right now is fine, but it needs either: 8th high moved to low, for a 7/4/7 setup 8th turret back and the grid/cpu to use it And a small cap boost, 250 cap over the hurricane don't cut it. Its good enough for you, until you realize that now you are going to be out tanked by a hurricane and out gunned, as well as out speeded, and outsized. As it stands right now, the ship is hundreds of CPU and PG below the Hurricane due to fitting issues with lasers, as well, its lacking in the damage department compared to the hurricane, especialy since the hurricane has the ability to fit gun rigs and the harbinger does not[not on its biggest guns, the Hurricane can fit 3 run rigs depending on calibration on 425's and still beat the Harbinger in terms of overall CPU and PG use at max skills compared to heavy pulses. At t1 rigs, that is between a an extra 33% DPS boost[at no extra ammo consumption] or a 37.5% DPS boost[with a large extra ammo consumption]. If the Harbinger fits Focused Medium Pulses, the Hurricane can fit Dual 180mm Auto cannons fit, 3 damage mods and be using the same amount of PG. In this situation the Harbinger is actualy up 125 PG after fitting...[.914]. Then again, the Hurricane is doing between 73% and 85% more damage[depending on how rigs and ship bonuses stack with each other] with her guns than the Harbinger. So go ahead and fit 7 focused medium pulses, a guy in a hurricane will still out damage you and probably out tank you. Heck, with just dual 180mm's he beats you on powergrid by 30 per gun and outdamages you by 40% over focused medium pulses, with the ship bonus and no rigs.[10% with no ship bonus]
2SecondsTilMidnight	Posted - 2006.10.28 19:11:00 - [354] Originally by: Shodana Probably been said before, but oh well. Drake with 7L/3t high slot split, 6 mid, 4 low. 5% shield resistance per level and 5% ROF bonus... OMFG. I just left a stain running from the floor to the ceiling. Ferox with 5L/5t high slot split, 5 mid, 4 low. 5% shield resistance per level and 10% to optimal range per level. Ferox is going to become extinct. As is, I have never seen a ferox fit with blasters or rails. Always missile spamming with ewar. So... Why do the caldari have 2 missile spamming BC? Any plans to make the ferox a 7t/3L high slot split now that the caldari have an uber missile spammer or plans to reconfigure the drake to a full turret boat? I don't mind. I am a missile ***** to the core of my being and love the drake's configuration, just seems a bit over the top with 7 launchers, 6 mids, and 4 lows. Not to mention renders the ferox useless. Have you actually ever flown a missle ferox before? It's not very strong, it's got pretty horrid dps.
Lrootrnas	Posted - 2006.10.28 19:21:00 - [355] Edited by: Lrootrnas on 28/10/2006 19:24:46
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 19:23:00 - [356] Edited by: keepiru on 28/10/2006 19:24:57 Originally by: Shodana So, that's why it's a 5T/5L split. Give someone the option of something that always hits and they'll run with it -either that or be drone mongers :) If the Drake goes through the with the 7L/3T split, why not give the Ferox 8 highlots in a 7 turret, 3 launcher split, keep the mids and lows as is? Although as you stated, "... they prefer EvE on easy mode... " and will just swap over to the drake. No. Keep the total slots, give 2 more turret hardpoints and remove 2 launchers, add some grid and remove a little CPU. Originally by: Goumindong Its good enough for you, until you realize that now you are going to be out tanked by a hurricane and out gunned, as well as out speeded, and outsized. As it stands right now, the ship is hundreds of CPU and PG below the Hurricane due to fitting issues with lasers, as well, its lacking in the damage department compared to the hurricane, especialy since the hurricane has the ability to fit gun rigs and the harbinger does not[not on its biggest guns, the Hurricane can fit 3 run rigs depending on calibration on 425's and still beat the Harbinger in terms of overall CPU and PG use at max skills compared to heavy pulses. At t1 rigs, that is between a an extra 33% DPS boost[at no extra ammo consumption] or a 37.5% DPS boost[with a large extra ammo consumption]. If the Harbinger fits Focused Medium Pulses, the Hurricane can fit Dual 180mm Auto cannons fit, 3 damage mods and be using the same amount of PG. In this situation the Harbinger is actualy up 125 PG after fitting...[.914]. Then again, the Hurricane is doing between 73% and 85% more damage[depending on how rigs and ship bonuses stack with each other] with her guns than the Harbinger. So go ahead and fit 7 focused medium pulses, a guy in a hurricane will still out damage you and probably out tank you. Heck, with just dual 180mm's he beats you on powergrid by 30 per gun and outdamages you by 40% over focused medium pulses, with the ship bonus and no rigs.[10% with no ship bonus] Some interesting arguments, but I havn't seen your math so I'll have to run it myself and see what I come up with. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.28 21:02:00 - [357] Change the myrmidon to a Drone+EW ship. Take away the armor rep bonus and replace it with a Sensor Dampener strength or range/cap bonus. Replace two high slots with 2 medium slots and remove another turret. Increase drone bay to 200. With 5 heavies + 3 replacements this ship is mathematically on par with the drone capacity for a cruiser done boat. Its DPS is also on par with the DPS of the other new BCs. With sensor dampeners it will take ships a lot longer to lockdown each of the dones and kill them.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.28 22:01:00 - [358] Originally by: keepiru Some interesting arguments, but I havn't seen your math so I'll have to run it myself and see what I come up with. [i made an error for the damage multiplier of the 180mm, i used the damage bonus from t2 to compare to a t1 pulse, which gives the 180II a 20% damage boost that it shouldnt have.] Here is how I did my math. I took the weapons damage multiplier then divided by its rate of fire. This, multiplied by the ammo damage gives you your base DPS for each gun. So, I assume equally skilled people, which means that the miltiplier applied to damage is equal and can be set to 1. Then I compare with what i know about how rigs work. All info so far points to rigs stack penalizing themselves [a mistake above, but since you can spread them out over gun bonuses, isnt a huge issue] but not stack penalizing with modules. What i dont know is whether or not they penalize with ship bonuses. So looking at the Dual 180mm autocannon, it has a DPS multiplier of 1.375 and a ROF of 3. For a final damage rating of .4583. A dual 180mm autocannon uses 80 PG A focused medium pulse has a DPS multiplier of 2 with a ROF of 4.05 for a final damage multiplier of .4938. A focused medium pulse ses 120 PG So if we apply 2 damage rig, and 1 ROF rigs, all at t1 levels, this means is a 10% damage bonus for each, and a 10% RoF bonus for each. For a total damage multiplier for the gun of around 1.17/.9 = 1.30 and a total PG modifier of 1.331. So a dual 180mm autocannon will use 106.4 powergrid and have a final DPS multiplier of .5958[better than a Heavy Pulse Laser by a couple percent], and do 20.6% more DPS than a focused medium pulse laser which uses 120 powergrid. So comparing the Hurricane VS the Harbinger, with equal about PG usage[116 total difference in favor of the AC's, 125 total PG higher on the harbinger] before ship bonuses the hurricanes guns do 20.6% more damage than the harbingers. This gets worse for guns that use more powergrid as you start using heavier guns and tech II guns[and tech II rigs as well] as the powergrid difference between the larger guns get 10% bigger, creating a larger total powergrid difference for each gun. What happens when we compare roughly equal sized guns? Focused Medium Pulses to 200mm autocannons? FMP is at .4938 and 120 powergrid. 200mm Autocannons are at .4881 with 100 powergrid. A 200mm autocannon user can fit two rigs [t1 would give a 21% DPS boost for 1 damage/1 rof for a total DPS mod of .5906] and be just barely over the powergrid usage of the FMP. So with the autocannons you use no cap, instead use ammo, gain 19.6% dps boost and gain CPU fitting versus a FMP. Comparing the biggest of the guns, the 425's which have a damage of 1.925 and a ROF of 3.75[140 PG] to heavy pulses with a damage of 3 and an rof of 5.25[210 PG]. 425 Autocannon base DPS multiplier = .5133 Heavy Pulse Laser base DPS multiplier = .5714 425 PG use with 3 rigs. = 186.34 425 Base DPS multplier with 2 damage/1 rof[to conserve ammo, 1 damage/2 rof is stronger] = .6672 = 16% better than the Heavy Pulse Laser with 20 more PG use[after the PG differences in ships are calculated] T2 rigs make this worse, T2 guns make this worse. Now start figuring in the ship bonuses[rof for each is null] and you see why there is an issue with the Hurricane out damaging the Harbinger and out Tanking it. Now, the big guns would be great if you could fit rigs on to them too, but you cant as effectivly, because of PG issues. A Heavy Pulse Laser with 2 rigs[and an 8 PG rig boost] on the ship to accomidate] will gain 150 PG from the rig at max skills and the HMP's will jump 280 PG use total at AWU 5[for a net loss of 150 PG, you will gain 5% or so damage] you get closer to the damage with T2 rigs, but with T2 guns the PG use difference becomes even larger. This wouldnt be an issue if ships didnt have limited powergrid, but of course, they do. It will also make autocannon/hybrid even better on amarr ships with no laser bonus
Rahjadan Shardur Minmatar Poisoned Heart	Posted - 2006.10.28 22:55:00 - [359] yes so the hurricane outdamages the harbinger, but you did not factor in the reload time for ACs. reloade time is more importent now that ships have more hp and you need more ammo to kill them. ------------------ Life is but a dream...
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.28 23:22:00 - [360] Originally by: Rahjadan Shardur yes so the hurricane outdamages the harbinger, but you did not factor in the reload time for ACs. reloade time is more importent now that ships have more hp and you need more ammo to kill them. you reload, lasers have SHORT falloff and we need change ammo more times. I usually change my ammo 2 times in each fight one when im far and another when im near but maybe i had to change it again for middle range. How many times do you reload? 1? 2? It's great being Amarr, ain't it?

keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.28 23:40:00 - [361] Are you factoring in the fact that the rig skill decreases the penalty to 50% @ lvl5? ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Alek Row Minmatar Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.29 00:46:00 - [362] Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:49:54 Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:47:17 Originally by: Sniser you reload, lasers have SHORT falloff and we need change ammo more times. I usually change my ammo 2 times in each fight one when im far and another when im near but maybe i had to change it again for middle range. How many times do you reload? 1? 2? ACs don't shoot without ammo, and I think projectile reloads take more time than crystal reloads. Reload time surelly counts on overall DPS when we're talking about projectiles, we can't shoot without ammo and you can shoot without crystals. Not without cap, but without crystals you still can shoot. ----- --- -- - - Hadean Drive Yards
Rahjadan Shardur Minmatar Poisoned Heart	Posted - 2006.10.29 00:53:00 - [363] Originally by: Alek Row Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:47:17 Originally by: Sniser you reload, lasers have SHORT falloff and we need change ammo more times. I usually change my ammo 2 times in each fight one when im far and another when im near but maybe i had to change it again for middle range. How many times do you reload? 1? 2? ACs don't shoot without ammo, and I think projectile reloads take more time than crystal reloads. Reload time surelly counts on overall DPS when we're talking about projectiles, we can't shoot without ammo and you can shoot without crystals. Not without cap, but with crystals you can still shoot. no actualy he can't shoot without crystals but laser crystal change time ist about 2sec. as for the AC reload: 2 reloads maybe depanding on the tank, which is already 20sec without damage. ------------------ Life is but a dream...
Alek Row Minmatar Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.29 01:03:00 - [364] Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 01:03:00 Originally by: Rahjadan Shardur no actualy he can't shoot without crystals but laser crystal change time ist about 2sec. as for the AC reload: 2 reloads maybe depanding on the tank, which is already 20sec without damage. My mistake then, didn't knew that. Thx. ----- --- -- - - Hadean Drive Yards
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.10.29 02:10:00 - [365] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: SmokeDog Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though. Well, with 2 BCU2 and rage you can get over 600 dps with max skills (and 5 hobgoblins). With javelin assaults you can push it to almost 500 dps for up to 60 km atm. Hey Alt, what is the penalty again for using the Rage "HAM"s that you so much push forward? You have got to be the most immature poster I've had the misfortune to read. And what makes this person an alt. She's in a corp and alliance. I see no corp or alliance in your sig so that must mean you're just an alt who likes to flame people for no reason. Please for the sake of contructive posting just stop. You just make yourself look bad and we have enough of that on the forums. As to the Mym, Up the drone bay to 120m3 and give the ship another turret. After all the artist seems to think it needs another turret.
Malafor Spontaneous Defenestration	Posted - 2006.10.29 02:43:00 - [366] My suggestion to fixing the "Myrmidon-problem". Instead if increasing its drone bay, Just make it possible to move drones from cargo to the drone bay. That would eliminate alot of problems with many drone ships. Like the Vexor,Arbitrator and pilgrim/curse. This way the Myrmidon would be abble to have spare heavy drones when fielding 4 heavys in battle. And i dont think it would need a 5th heavy drone for more dps, Seeing its slot layout it has alot of advantage in battle as it is so versatile in every field. It can both nos or use turrets, It has alot of med-slots for ew, It has a Repair bonus which makes it a good tank. That is my oppinion, in a pvp point of view. (And plz dont change the Drake, and fix more cap for the Harbringer.) -
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.29 03:21:00 - [367] Originally by: Malafor Instead if increasing its drone bay, Just make it possible to move drones from cargo to the drone bay. That would eliminate alot of problems with many drone ships. wouldnt work under current mechanics i believe. you could launch your 4 heavies then move a heavy from cargo to drone bay and launch that one. once your done just scoop on into the cargo bay. with this change in place every ship with at least 25m3 dronebay would be able to field 5 heavy drones.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.29 06:26:00 - [368] Edited by: Goumindong on 29/10/2006 06:28:40 Originally by: keepiru Are you factoring in the fact that the rig skill decreases the penalty to 50% @ lvl5? No, i hadnt, this makes the issue not quite as bad when both ships/gun types fit rigs, but you still have the same problem with powergrid usage and its still easier for the Hurricane to fit gun rigs as opposed to the harbinger. For instance, at max rig skills with 3 gun rigs, a 425 autocannon I uses 48 PG less than a unmodified Heavy Pulse I, 44 PG with AWU 5. With both guns fitted, the harbinger at max skills will have 185 less powergrid than a hurricane at max skills. The hurricane of course, will be doing significantly more damage with no cap usage.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.29 07:03:00 - [369] Well, ome interesting numbers to be sure, they're only right assuming tux does increase EMP damage so it does as much as Multifrequency and Antimatter tho. I think the problem here is one tux touched upon once, and that is, fitting difference between Autocannons and Howitzers is too large, and it makes balancing minnie ships very hard. Regardless, I'm going to hold my council about this particular issue until SISI is stable enough for extended testing. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Parou Qong Federation Industries Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.29 08:13:00 - [370] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 29/10/2006 03:50:14 Originally by: Malafor Instead if increasing its drone bay, Just make it possible to move drones from cargo to the drone bay. That would eliminate alot of problems with many drone ships. wouldnt work under current mechanics i believe. you could launch your 4 heavies then move a heavy from cargo to drone bay and launch that one. once your done just scoop one into the cargo bay. with this change in place every ship with at least 25m3 dronebay would be able to field 5 heavy drones. This is actually a good solution. Make moving drones from cargo to drone bay a specific bonus for this ship only. To prevent moving an extra drone into bay that shouldn't be there, have client do a check on m3 of drones currently in space (when attempting to move a drone into the drone bay). This will take just a moment but with pvp taking longer shouldn't be a factor. I'm not sure whether can be done with current mechanics, but it's an interesting concept.

Tek'a Rain Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.29 08:55:00 - [371] or, instead of thowing away the entire system and starting over from scratch.. the myrm could get a plenty bigger drone bay. tada, problem solved. Blaque or Foiritan
Soratah Amarr Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.10.29 09:55:00 - [372] Sounds like the jury's still out deliberating, but looking at the raw maths that some people have posted. Tier 2 BC top damage will be the Minmatar at close range, with Caldari coming in second. Myrmidon third, even with it's current dronebay situation. Last of all, the Harbinger with it's trademark Amarrian - buggered fitting requirements and laser capabilities. As I've seen someone else posting It's great being Amarrian...
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.29 10:29:00 - [373] Originally by: Alek Row Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:49:54 Edited by: Alek Row on 29/10/2006 00:47:17 Originally by: Sniser you reload, lasers have SHORT falloff and we need change ammo more times. I usually change my ammo 2 times in each fight one when im far and another when im near but maybe i had to change it again for middle range. How many times do you reload? 1? 2? ACs don't shoot without ammo, and I think projectile reloads take more time than crystal reloads. Reload time surelly counts on overall DPS when we're talking about projectiles, we can't shoot without ammo and you can shoot without crystals. Not without cap, but without crystals you still can shoot. Sorry but my t2 crystals gone too. What do you think if my crystals t2 broke and you still have t2 ammo? maybe i can still shoot with t1 ammo but im going to die since i cant do the same dps with my lost It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Spaced Skunk Yesodic Nomads Corp	Posted - 2006.10.29 10:34:00 - [374] Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36 7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt what about the absolution? People are getting carried away here arent they hehe Remember people these ships are tech1 :)
Coreantes Phoenix Wing	Posted - 2006.10.29 11:46:00 - [375] Originally by: Zeknichov Change the myrmidon to a Drone+EW ship. Take away the armor rep bonus and replace it with a Sensor Dampener strength or range/cap bonus. Replace two high slots with 2 medium slots and remove another turret. I would like this. Gives Gallente more defensive capabilities. The Brutix will still be the damage+tank, the Myrmidon will be able to do a crossing between the Vexor and the Celestis, or kind of the big version for the Amarr Arbitrator! As for the drone-bay, I think it's fair to have 10 medium T2 drones! Giving it the option to launch heavies or sentries would be to much. It's not a BS, you know? But a drone-EW hybrid would be fun! ---------------------------------------------- Good is only skin deep, Evil is dead down to the bone...
Jom Lik	Posted - 2006.10.29 12:31:00 - [376] Edited by: Jom Lik on 29/10/2006 12:35:38 Edited by: Jom Lik on 29/10/2006 12:35:01 To make things easier here is recap about Myrmidon (it looks like most people that posted are not happy with it) from thread. I hope this list can help dev to see what concerns other players have. - Many players mentioning that Myrmidon needs a larger drone bay - Suggestion about drone bonus change and different bonuses: to give dmg/other (speed bounus etc.), drone dmg bonuses (different for light/med and heavy, dmg bonuses only for light/med) - Suggestion about +1 drone control per skill level - Suggestion anout +25m3 drone space per skill level - Most players mentioning drone bay increase from 125m3 to 200m3 - Some players mentioning cut in number of high slots and adding of one more low slot (for improved tank). - Many players pointing that with HP boost for ships and no dmg boost for drones simple tactics will be to destroy all drones first and kill Myrmidon (without drones Myrm is loosing a lot of offensive power) - There is concern from some of players that without turret bonuses once when drones are dead Myrmidon is next to useless - There are comments about drones being very expensive (T2) in comparision with other T2 ammo and once drones are dead replacement will be very expensive (with new improved ship HP players will first target and destroy drones) - Many players agreed that in 1 vs 1 Myrmidon is usually doomed against other Tier-2 BCs - It looks like biggest fear for non Gallente players is from heavy drones - Many players pointing that average DPS for Myrm is lower than other Tier-2 and even some Tier-1 BCs This is just recap of things from thread and not my personal opinion. My personal opinion below. What looks like general 'problem' with BCs is that they are using cruiser sized modules/weapons. That is only class I think that is using stuff for another class of ships. There is not a single module dedicated for BCs and BCs in general are much bigger than average cruiser. I would like to see BC size 20Mn MWD or something similar :) I did have luck to try actual ship and from my experience Myrm is really not on pair with other Tier-2 BCs. Drake is uber machine and both Amarr/Minmatar ships are looking pretty balanced. I would like to see change in drone space - 200m3 will be great what gives player ability to have 1 wave of heavy, med and light drones but more important of all gives flexibility (I can chose to take 10 light, 5 med and assortment of ECM, web drones or any combo I see fit to my tactics). Also I can live without 1 (even 2) high slots for one more low slot for improved tank. PG/CPU can be tweaked to reflect changes if necesary.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:00:00 - [377] The myr should get 200-225 m¦ dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2. 225m¦ drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar Red Dwarf Mining Corps Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:34:00 - [378] Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 29/10/2006 13:35:43 Originally by: Aramendel The myr should get 200-225 m¦ dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2. 225m¦ drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports. T2 ammo has stacking penalties. Ever try a minmatar ac boat with hail? They almost move backwards and cap recharge rate skyrockets. I fly minmatar primarily and don't know about the other T2 ammo, but they all have a penalty that stack per turret loaded with it. T2 drones don't have a penalty of any kind other than "OMGWTF$"? All the T2 drones are faster and tougher than the T1. They may cost more but that is the only penalty incurred. They don't reduce the amount drained by nos/neutralizers . All who want the new gallente BC to have 225m drone bays just want a cheaper dominix and more uber vexor. As far as a "Damper" bonus... lmfao. Hell no, people are going to fit it with ewar anyway. No turrets? Rather silly there. Strip the drone bonuses, give it a hybrid damage bonus, let it have the 225m bay, maybe give it a mwd cap reduction so it's more like a thorax than a vexor on steroids. THUKKER
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:49:00 - [379] Hail had it's speed penalitiy removed, welcome to the future. And all other tier 2 BCs can deal more dps than 5 heavies with the drone bonus with t1 ammo!
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:12:00 - [380] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 29/10/2006 14:14:30 Originally by: Futher Bezluden Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 29/10/2006 13:37:26 Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 29/10/2006 13:35:43 Originally by: Aramendel The myr should get 200-225 m¦ dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2. 225m¦ drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports. T2 ammo has stacking penalties. Ever try a minmatar ac boat with hail? They almost move backwards and cap recharge rate skyrockets. I fly minmatar primarily and don't know about the other T2 ammo, but they all have a penalty that stack per turret loaded with it. T2 drones don't have a penalty of any kind other than "OMGWTF$"? All the T2 drones are faster and tougher than the T1. They may cost more but that is the only penalty incurred. They don't reduce the amount drained by nos/neutralizers . All who want the new gallente BC to have 225m drone bays just want a cheaper dominix and more uber vexor. As far as a "Damper" bonus... lmfao. Hell no, people are going to fit it with ewar anyway. No turrets? Rather silly there. Strip the drone bonuses, give it a hybrid damage bonus, let it have the 225m bay, maybe give it a mwd cap reduction so it's more like a thorax on steroids than a vexor on steroids. No t2 drone penaties? Have you ever tried buying t2 ogres or hammerheads? the t1 to t2 cost ratio is rediculas, far in excess of any other item beyond t2 cap rechargers Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus

Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:15:00 - [381] Originally by: Aramendel Hail had it's speed penalitiy removed, welcome to the future. And all other tier 2 BCs can deal more dps than 5 heavies with the drone bonus with t1 ammo! well said sir.. Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:21:00 - [382] Originally by: Aramendel The myr should get 200-225 m¦ dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2. 225m¦ drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports. that would be one mean nos-pwnmobile... Why not give it a large dronebay (200-250m3) but no drone bonus and a hybrid bonus instead. Then they can have their heavys and some backups but they don't to BBQ damage. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:34:00 - [383] No, it wont be a mean NOSPwnMobile because its powergrid sucks far too hard for any decent amount of nossage with a tank under it. NOS + Drones is only that good when you have ECM in the mix as well, and that wont be happening anymore. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:37:00 - [384] Originally by: keepiru No, it wont be a mean NOSPwnMobile because its powergrid sucks far too hard for any decent amount of nossage with a tank under it. NOS + Drones is only that good when you have ECM in the mix as well, and that wont be happening anymore. then it will be a mild nos-decentmobile. I still think the answer is to not give it a drone damage bonus. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:10:00 - [385] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:10:39 Originally by: Dixon that would be one mean nos-pwnmobile... Why not give it a large dronebay (200-250m3) but no drone bonus and a hybrid bonus instead. Then they can have their heavys and some backups but they don't to BBQ damage. Well, it wouldn't be one any more than an Ishtar. All t2 cruisers seem to me somewhat stronger than their racial HACs on the cost of speed, agility & range. Note that the tier2 BCs are rather heavy and are not very fast even with MWDs, so for a Myr getting into med nos range isn't something it can do easily. It's only 12 km, not 25 km like with the domi.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:38:00 - [386] Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? CEO - Art of War
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.29 22:39:00 - [387] Originally by: Nebuli Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.29 22:43:00 - [388] I havnt boverd to check so if you would like to look it up you can probably prove me wrong. But i thought that between the bonuses of T2 launchers/turrets and the T2 Amunition for them they were improved by more then the drones were hence ballenced. Now if this was the case then with the T2 ammo nerf it may not be any more. Maybe some one should check. Im too lazy ^.^
Caewack	Posted - 2006.10.30 00:02:00 - [389] Edited by: Caewack on 30/10/2006 00:04:58 Originally by: Black Scorpio Quote: "When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong..." Answer: Pot in very high quantities is bad for you! Stop while you have something left in your head that you can use, or is it too late! Don't blame pot, pot is good. One might think your head took a beating when you say something as dumb as above. oh, and btw. Make 4 stickies for each battlecruiser.. There is no system in the threads and the replys are all mixed up. Makes it close to impossible to discuss anything in here.
Jaxtet	Posted - 2006.10.30 01:12:00 - [390] As far as drawbacks of T2 drones vs. T2 turrets, etc - T2 turrets can't be targeted explicitly and destroyed or disabled.

Nebuli Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.30 01:36:00 - [391] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nebuli Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks. No, they have low dps, delayed damage and the fact they can be shot down as drawbacks. Also the ships that have drone bonus's also have lower fittings and less slots than those that dont. CEO - Art of War
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 02:28:00 - [392] Originally by: Nebuli Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Nebuli Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives? well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks. No, they have low dps, delayed damage and the fact they can be shot down as drawbacks. Also the ships that have drone bonus's also have lower fittings and less slots than those that dont. Only if you dont consider the drone bay a usefull attribute to be balanced with fitting and slots.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 03:57:00 - [393] I've said it before and I'll say it again... Just up the Myrm drone space to 200 or so and give the drones a 7.5% bonus instead of a 10%. Simple.
Packtu'sa Caldari Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 04:02:00 - [394] Edited by: Packtu''sa on 30/10/2006 04:02:12 Harbinger (Amarr) - It looks like a nice ganking boat. No bonuses to tanking, but the capacitor need reduction and damage bonus looks simple and solid. Its four midslots to six lowslots go along with its nature as a pure-damage boat, rather than a ship that tanks damage. Seems fine to me. Drake (Caldari) - It's good that the new battlecruiser for Caldari will be a missile boat. Though many seem to be saying that the new battlecruisers should be all-gank and no-tank, I think that this only holds true for the Harbinger and Hurricane--the Drake and Myrmidon should have strong tanks. The seven launcher slots will give it a nice damage output, though if people try to fit all Heavy Missile Launchers in those slots, they will find an appalling lack of CPU and powergrid remaining--which is good, it forces people to think more about how they fit it. The Rate of Fire bonus is fine; if you replace this with a Kinetic damage bonus, Caldari will be even more restricted in their damage type than Amarr or Gallente. Myrmidon (Gallente) - Come on people, read the description. It's a ship designed to withstand damage and last on a battlefield, not one that will dish out loads of damage, which is, by the way, not the only factor one should consider on a ship. I think that the Myrmidon should be given a 125 m3 drone bay, but have the drone damage bonus removed and the drone hitpoints bonus increased to 20%. This will go hand-in-hand with its overall resiliance, and still maintain some of its previous damage potential. Keep the armor bonus, and give it a sixth turret slot. Hurricane (Minmatar) - A few things could be done with the Hurricane. It seems like its a nice damage boat like the Harbinger, and has enough capacitor/slots to tank a bit of damage. I like that it can't fit artillery without compromising the rest of its setup. Since it will be using autocannons, though, let's give it a bit of speed; increase its max velocity to 175 m/s, or alternatively, replace its Rate of Fire bonus with a 5% Max Velocity bonus. This would make it a bit less of gank and more of manuevering, so I personally would prefer the base max velocity increase, as long as its CPU and powergrid are not enough to fit a strong artillery setup. I hope to be producing all four of these when the patch is released, so I look forward to all of them. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.30 06:32:00 - [395] Originally by: Packtu'sa Hurricane (Minmatar) - A few things could be done with the Hurricane. It seems like its a nice damage boat like the Harbinger, and has enough capacitor/slots to tank a bit of damage. I like that it can't fit artillery without compromising the rest of its setup. Since it will be using autocannons, though, let's give it a bit of speed; increase its max velocity to 175 m/s, or alternatively, replace its Rate of Fire bonus with a 5% Max Velocity bonus. This would make it a bit less of gank and more of manuevering, so I personally would prefer the base max velocity increase, as long as its CPU and powergrid are not enough to fit a strong artillery setup. The Hurricane is fine as is. There are very few complaints leveled at it, I imagine there would be outrage if it were changed now. It's everything we ever dreamed of, the Rupture's bigger brother. And I definetly plan to use artillery with it. It would mean no tank but that is something I can live with. The joys of alliance warfare...
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 06:58:00 - [396] about the hurricane... i had not much time to try it out well, it seem a nice boat but is also extremely slow... my phoon probably is a bit faster and more maneuverable considering its stats and the lack of tanking bonus i wish it could get some more speed 175-180... had no chance to try/see other BCs in action, on paper the drake seem an awesome ship... probably a bit too awesome
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.10.30 08:41:00 - [397] Originally by: Nebuli Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous. Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target. "I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!" As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship. The more I read and look at the math, the more I agree with you. I'd gladly gladly gladly trade in my high slots down to two (remote rep and range boost, gotta give the little guys SOME loving) for maybe another low slot, some more drone space, and perhaps an extra live drone or two. Maybe do a thing like, "+1 drones for every two levels past 1" so that at level 3 BC you get +1 drone, level 5 you get +2. But holy ****, as it stands right now, I might as well go back to my Vexor. I'd much rather go 600m/s with rails and have a pack of rabid HH2 cycling in and out, than this slow rock with naught but a quad of Ogres waiting to be raped by anything that's not a tier 1 BC with poor tracking.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.30 11:15:00 - [398] Originally by: Packtu'sa Harbinger (Amarr) - It looks like a nice ganking boat. No bonuses to tanking, but the capacitor need reduction and damage bonus looks simple and solid. Its four midslots to six lowslots go along with its nature as a pure-damage boat, rather than a ship that tanks damage. Seems fine to me. Problem is that vs the hurricane it is worse in every aspect but drone bay. It is slower, it's tank is worse, it does less dps and has less fitting space avaiable after shortrange weapons fitted.
Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:04:00 - [399] Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm, i've only just managed to get on the test server, but once i got in a fight (with a drake) i killed it when i was still on half armor. We started nearly 50km away from each other, and my drones even decided to wander off halfway through. The character was over a year older than me, and he didn't target my drones (who knows what would have happened if he had). My tank appeared to be able to sustain itself for a little while(with 3 nos) and my dps with 3 ions could have been enough to finish him off in time. All im saying is that the Myrm has excellent damage (i was using 3 ogres and 2 hammerhead IIs), so maybe it should have some weakness, sure up its bay to 125m3 but at 200+ i think it will be far overpowered, with no weakness. This is coming from someone who intends to buy a Myrm as their main ship on TQ.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:59:00 - [400] Originally by: Tintifish Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm This. -- NMTZ forum

Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 15:54:00 - [401] Just managed to log back in (for about 3 minutes)and noticed the Myrm now has only 2 turrets. Im pretty sure this wasn't like this before, seeing i have 3 fitted. I think only have 2 turrets and a 100m3 drone bay is a bit too far?
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:00:00 - [402] Originally by: Tintifish Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm, i've only just managed to get on the test server, but once i got in a fight (with a drake) i killed it when i was still on half armor. We started nearly 50km away from each other, and my drones even decided to wander off halfway through. The character was over a year older than me, and he didn't target my drones (who knows what would have happened if he had). My tank appeared to be able to sustain itself for a little while(with 3 nos) and my dps with 3 ions could have been enough to finish him off in time. All im saying is that the Myrm has excellent damage (i was using 3 ogres and 2 hammerhead IIs), so maybe it should have some weakness, sure up its bay to 125m3 but at 200+ i think it will be far overpowered, with no weakness. This is coming from someone who intends to buy a Myrm as their main ship on TQ. He used the wrong tactics basically, if he had then you would be dead. Either he has has no PvP experience or he doesn't know the Myrm's stats so assumed you had replacement drones. Zarch AlDain
Chronojam	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:07:00 - [403] Originally by: Tintifish Just managed to log back in (for about 3 minutes)and noticed the Myrm now has only 2 turrets. Im pretty sure this wasn't like this before, seeing i have 3 fitted. I think only have 2 turrets and a 100m3 drone bay is a bit too far? Oh please oh please tell me my dream came true and we've ditched the crappy turrets in favor of the real dogged persistance and tankability the description promises us, along with a +# drone control bonus (Hell! I have a better idea than before. Tie bonus drone count into advanced drone interfacing, a skill that noncarriers otherwise have put to waste! +1 per level of that) and bay increase. Oh please oh please. What's my one account in the face of thousands but I pledge six months purchased upon patch release if we get this kind of deal.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:10:00 - [404] No, 3 fitted + 2 hardpoints on fitting screen = 5. If you fit 5, it'll say the ship has 0 hardpoints, because it shows the amount of turret/missiles hardpoints still free. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Tintifish	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:26:00 - [405] Ah lol, explains it, i checked ship description as well, but must have checked my ship's becuase the market was broke by this point. Nevermind...we can but hope :)
Packtu'sa Caldari Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 17:26:00 - [406] The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. Its ability to dish out damage is superceded by its ability to withstand it, so personally, I would be asking for cap/lowslot/cpu/powergrid changes rather than this futility of wanting to match the Hurricane's DPS. A Hurricane will not be able to tank nearly as well as a Myrmidon will, so why should the Myrmidon be matching its DPS? If the Harbinger does less damage than the Hurricane, I propose that a lowslot be taken from the Hurricane so that one less damage/tracking mod can be used. They should be fairly close in damage-per-second, but remember that the Hurricane can change damage types, and it will be faster and smaller. Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 18:26:00 - [407] mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane harbringer with focused medium pulse is not that wors than 425mm, a bit less damage at closer range but better range... if you factor in the bigger dronebay then the dps is almost identical (with better range for the harb) focused medium pulse is also easier to fit, so the harb should have better tank than the hurricane (easier fitting and 15-20% more base armor hps) the hurrican can mount an additional missile launcher to improve its dps, while the harbringer is stuck with the nos (still quite benefical), so i don't see the reason of all this whinage
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.30 18:54:00 - [408] Originally by: Ath Amon mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane ... so i don't see the reason of all this whinage that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:06:00 - [409] Originally by: Packtu'sa The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. All the more reason it needs a larger drone bay. If it's built to tank, then that means it needs to LAST on the battlefield. Without spare drones all it can do is tank until it dies. Basically if your in a Myrm and you lose your drones, just hit the self-destruct button and be done with it.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:17:00 - [410] Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 19:18:00 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here. yes i see the cap problem, but harbs have also more range and base tankage so i don't see a huge umbalance harb vs hurr, both with 1 nos, i will prefer to stay in the hurr, but mostly due to 70% base ew res. still harb is better suited for longer range as noses are less a problem... against a brutix for example probably i will prefer the harb so in the end i consider them quite balanced, maybe hurr a bit better but is also quite situational

Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:26:00 - [411] Originally by: Packtu'sa The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. Its ability to dish out damage is superceded by its ability to withstand it, so personally, I would be asking for cap/lowslot/cpu/powergrid changes rather than this futility of wanting to match the Hurricane's DPS. A Hurricane will not be able to tank nearly as well as a Myrmidon will, so why should the Myrmidon be matching its DPS? ... Why can't a Hurricane tank almost as well? It has one more low slot for an additional rep, it has oodles of grid available and ACs need no cap and are easy to fit. -- NMTZ forum
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 19:44:00 - [412] Edited by: Goumindong on 30/10/2006 19:52:35 Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 19:18:00 Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups. the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here. yes i see the cap problem, but harbs have also more range and base tankage so i don't see a huge umbalance harb vs hurr, both with 1 nos, i will prefer to stay in the hurr, but mostly due to 70% base ew res. still harb is better suited for longer range as noses are less a problem... against a brutix for example probably i will prefer the harb so in the end i consider them quite balanced, maybe hurr a bit better but is also quite situational It has "20% more tankage" Which is true if you consider the resists equal, where the Hurricanes armor resists are actualy about 20% better than the Harbingers[10% bonus to EM resists = 25% less EM damage, 10% bonus to explosive resists = 12.2% less explosive damage] Harbingers also dont really have more range, well it only does if the Harb if sitting a MWD and the opponent is not, and the Harb neither has the fitting ease, or capacitor ease to do so. The Harbinger is not paticularly fast and has no way to dictate range like the Hurricane does, not like it matters if your optimal is under web range anyway. One thing i think you are forgetting about the fact that no, Focused Medium Pulses really arent close to 425's FMP II DPS Multiplier = .5926 425 II DPS Multiplier = .616 Now what happens when with 1 level of BC to 5 levels of BC 425 II DPS Multiplier BC1 = .6468 425 II DPS Multiplier BC2 = .6776 425 II DPS Multiplier BC3 = .7084 425 II DPS Multiplier BC4 = .7392 425 II DPS Multiplier BC5 = .77 Looking at 425's against Focused Medium Pulses and figuring out how much more damage the 425's do in a percentage amount at each level of Battlecruiser. BC 1 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 9.1% BC 2 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 14.3% BC 3 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 19.5% BC 4 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 24.7% BC 5 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 29.9% Now in exhcange for this very large damage difference, the hurricane is smaller, faster, doesnt use cap on its guns, has a better tank, and will have about 300 PG less than you to fit things other than weapons. Oops, its a shame that that 300 PG is irrelevent because at AWU 0, the Hurricane can still fit a 1600 plate, MAR II, and AB II/MWD, but doesnt give you the ability to fit two 1600 plates+reppers/AB. I dont know what "faster/harder to hit/takes less damage/doesnt use capacitor to fire guns/does more damage" means to you, but to me, it means "better" edit: Rigs make the damage come back into place a bit, but still leave the Hurricane with better damage if it also fits one rig, and it certianly can. + the whole not using cap thing.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:46:00 - [413] Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2006 20:58:26 Well, "DPS Multiplier" as a comparison tool is kinda useless until. EMP M does less damage than AM M and MF M You don't calculate [email protected] and tracking - need NB's spreadsheet for this You don't factor in reload time over your average fight time - again need NB's spreadsheet for this Not that I've been able to find a setup that can fit MWD + Injector + DUal rep or Rep + 1600 on the Hurricane with 425s and a nos or heavy assault, I have to use 220s. Regardless, looks to me they should give it back its 8th turret. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:48:00 - [414] Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 20:48:42 EM dmg is not that common in close range... also the range is way better, around 2x if i remember right... the difference in dps at BC5 is compensated by better drone dps, i looked at graph and as said in the other post is very similar with harbringer who have better range also harb is slower than a hurr but is faster than a brutix so is not that slow compared to other bcs and against cruisers that are generally faster its higher range should be quite benefical. (of course i'm speaking with similar config with both ships with 1 nos) later i'll post a graph (now can't :( ) also with rigs that increase turret dps at the cost of PG is not that bad to have a bit more pg :)
Tek'a Rain Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:53:00 - [415] why do folk keep proclaiming that removing the damamge modifier for drones is a magic fix? take away the bonus and suddenly the ship that was almost, barely, approximatly as hard hitting as the vexor is now much less so, while still being crippled and nerfed for its class and size.. silly, just silly. Foiritan Is Our Man
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:25:00 - [416] This is just a suggestion for the Galante teir 2 BC. Alter the drone damage/hitpoints bonus to effect only light and medium drones. Change the armour bonus to a +1 drone contol per lvl. Change drone capacity to 200m3. Also add this. It can not hold heavy drones. Keep the rest the same. Flame suit on.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:26:00 - [417] Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 20:48:42 EM dmg is not that common in close range... also the range is way better, around 2x if i remember right... the difference in dps at BC5 is compensated by better drone dps, i looked at graph and as said in the other post is very similar with harbringer who have better range also harb is slower than a hurr but is faster than a brutix so is not that slow compared to other bcs and against cruisers that are generally faster its higher range should be quite benefical. (of course i'm speaking with similar config with both ships with 1 nos) later i'll post a graph (now can't :( ) also with rigs that increase turret dps at the cost of PG is not that bad to have a bit more pg :) 1. DPS multiplier is relevent because A: Lasers have worse tracking than other guns[FMP has 30% worse tracking than 425 II B: Range is irrelevent unless the ship can dictate its range, which the very slow Harbinger cannot, especialy since the range it needs to dictate is under web rage with pulse weapons. C: Ammo and Crystals [t1 at least] do similar damage at equal ranges modifications. The difference at BC 5 is compensated by better drone DPS when the harbinger is using Heavy Pulses and the Hurricane is using 220's Rigs would be great, but even with rigs, the 425's do better than the FMP's with 3 rigs, if the 425 has 1 rig. So the Hurricane has 2 other slots to fit with things like an 8% PG rig [And then the Harbingers PG fitting bonus is gone and the Hurricane is ahead by 15 PG in absolute terms(1890 to 1875)] So now the Hurricane is using less PG for guns, doing more damage, has an extra rig slot it can use, and has more absolute powergrid. If the Harbinger doesnt fit three gun rigs, it does less damage than the Hurricane. And the Hurricane is still faster, smaller, and doesnt need to use cap to fire its guns.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:48:00 - [418] Well, T2 ammo wont be so common anymore after the nuuurfs, so Autocannons will have to fight against 24hp MF M with EMP M (22hp) or Phased Plasma M (20hp). So damage figures which don't take this into account fail @ reality. Also, thanks to the ludicrous rof of Auto's, reload time puts a considerable dent in your dps in any real 1-on-1, especially with the 50% HP boost. So much so that 425mm ACs had to have their clip size boosted because they actually did less dps than 220s in a fight thanks to clip size. Not that anyone is going to fit 425s anyway. Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:51:00 - [419] Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:52:34 Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:51:45 I think that the Myrmidon still needs a lot of work. With 8 Highs, 5 turrets and no hybrid bonus it is designed to be used with LASERS. You can fit 5 Focused Medium Pulse laser II 3 NOS to offset the extra cap required by the lasers A repairer and an Afterburner (not enough grid for MWD) It is a bigger arbitrator, not a smaller dominix. We need a tier 2 battlecruiser that can be used by gallente pilots. Please, at least change the turret hardpoints to missile hardpoints.
Zhull Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.30 21:59:00 - [420] Originally by: Zhull Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:52:34 Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:51:45 I think that the Myrmidon still needs a lot of work. With 8 Highs, 5 turrets and no hybrid bonus it is designed to be used with LASERS. You can fit 5 Focused Medium Pulse laser II 3 NOS to offset the extra cap required by the lasers A repairer and an Afterburner (not enough grid for MWD) It is a bigger arbitrator, not a smaller dominix. We need a tier 2 battlecruiser that can be used by gallente pilots. Please, at least change the turret hardpoints to missile hardpoints. Oh, by the way, and it can have a mean shield tank

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.30 22:06:00 - [421] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2006 20:58:26 Well, "DPS Multiplier" as a comparison tool is kinda useless until. EMP M does less damage than AM M and MF M You don't calculate [email protected] and tracking - need NB's spreadsheet for this You don't factor in reload time over your average fight time - again need NB's spreadsheet for this Not that I've been able to find a setup that can fit MWD + Injector + DUal rep or Rep + 1600 on the Hurricane with 425s and a nos or heavy assault, I have to use 220s. Regardless, looks to me they should give it back its 8th turret. Titainium Sabot M and EMP M both do 22 damage. MF M does 24. If you want, you can give the FMP a 9% boost in damage[equal to BC 1 now], for that. It isnt going to help much. Now if you start looking at its based armor damage instead of the base damage differences, you will start seeing that go the other way. Not sure what happens when you average between the two based on the number of shield/armor tankers, but i doubt it will be favorable to the lasers.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.30 22:17:00 - [422] here the graph... hur vs har doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2... i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones. also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite... i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk... you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot. and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.30 23:01:00 - [423] I finally got a chance to fly the drake this afternoon and it seems pretty good. It's a very tight fit to get tech 2 launchers on it though, even with AWU. Zarch AlDain
James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2006.10.30 23:08:00 - [424] Edited by: James Draekn on 30/10/2006 23:12:52 Just ran the math on Ogre 2's, if the Myrmidons slots layout/bonuses were changed to the following: 4 highs(no turrets) 5 mids 7 lows 500m3 drone bay +1 drone controlled per level +10% drone damage and hitpoints per level Ogre 2's stats Damage mod of 1.92 Damage or 24 ROF 2 So we take the numbers and go...... 1.92* (2[drone interfacing 5, 100% increase in drone damage] + .25 [heavy drone operation] + .1 [adv gal drone skill] + .5 [bc skill]) = 5.472 damage mod damage doesn't change = 24 rof doesnt change = rof 2 so we get 5.47224/2=65.664 PER DRONE for DPS times that by 10= 656.64 MAX DPS with full skills on 10 ogre 2's in space.* The drones have to be within 5km of their target and they have no drone damage mods, no rof mods. This would be a true drone boat. After running those numbers I seriously was thinking that this ship could have those bonuses and that size drone bay and still need turrets to compete with the other races tier 2 BC. Not to mention the fact that enemies can target drones and kill them. So for all the people saying that heavy drones would make this ship overpowered, here's the proof that it won't. Most of the other races BC with max skills and the largest guns fit to gank will outdamage this thing easily. And the large drone bay is there do to the fact that this ship has no guns, so it needs to be able to reload just like turret and launchers.
Bradstone BRADNETT Process of Elimination	Posted - 2006.10.30 23:14:00 - [425] Edited by: Bradstone on 30/10/2006 23:14:29 Even i haven't read all the posts here, I must agree that the nighthawk have a 7th launcher slot to. I use a nighthawk for pretty much everything, and to think that all that skill training time for a nighthawk and all that isk "could" be all out damaged by a nOOb in a T1 BC... it would be devastating.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:22:00 - [426] Originally by: James Draekn [b]4 highs(no turrets) 5 mids 7 lows 500m3 drone bay A drone battlecruiser should not have more low slots than the Brutix, Astarte and Deimos.... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:29:00 - [427] Originally by: Ath Amon here the graph... hur vs har doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2... i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones. also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite... i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk... you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot. and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers The 425 II spends a full 1/3 of the time reloading?
James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:44:00 - [428] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: James Draekn [b]4 highs(no turrets) 5 mids 7 lows 500m3 drone bay A drone battlecruiser should not have more low slots than the Brutix, Astarte and Deimos.... Ok how about.... 4 highs (no turrets) 6 mids 6 lows With the Myrmidon's powergrid you can't stack to much in the lows.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.31 00:45:00 - [429] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ath Amon here the graph... hur vs har doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2... i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones. also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite... i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk... you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot. and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers The 425 II spends a full 1/3 of the time reloading? amarr ships have cap, but minnies have reloading the graph is made with NB's spreadsheet that is considered very accurate (more than quickfit that have some bugs)... i can have messed it up but a bit playing with it but don't think so... anyway if someone want to try to reproduce it and post here...
Valtirix Gallente Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.31 01:35:00 - [430] Originally by: Ath Amon here the graph... hur vs har doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2... i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones. also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite... i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk... you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot. and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers See, i think the Hurricane is fine! Besides, some people are complaining it's dps is too high compared with its tankability? 1: Have you not seen the hail nerfs for Kali? I'll be damned if anybody uses hail 2:Also, it doesn't get a tanking bonus, like the other bc's do. THe Myrmidon's rep bonus, and the drake's resistance bonus make up for it. And, it sort of made me think of a brutix when i thought of a dual MAR tank on a hurricane, but again, it doesn't get the rep bonus of a brutix....

Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:41:00 - [431] Edited by: Kai Lae on 31/10/2006 02:42:27 Originally by: James Draekn 1.92* (2 [drone interfacing 5, 100% increase in drone damage] + .25 [heavy drone operation] + .1 [adv gal drone skill] + .5 [bc skill] ) = 5.472 damage mod damage doesn't change = 24 rof doesnt change = rof 2 So we get = 5.47224/2= 65.664 PER DRONE for DPS. Times that by 10= 656.64 MAX DPS with full skills on 10 ogre 2's in space.* Your numbers are incorrect. Taken in order: Ogre II Damagemod: 1.96 1.96 x drone interfacing 5: 4.8 4.8 x gallente drone spec 5: 5.28 5.28 x gallente BC 5: 7.92 7.92 x 24: 190.08 190.08/2: 95.04 95.04 x 5: 475.2 DPS 475.2 DPS is the max amount of drone damage you can do with any drone ship in the game except the moros. With a moros, it is 1108.8 DPS. Raptor and Ares Fix
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:44:00 - [432] reserved 2
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:44:00 - [433] Edited by: Kalhystia on 31/10/2006 02:46:35 Hey peeps. I would first like to say that I am going to buy and use a myrmidon a Kali: I just love this ship. I use gallente vessels quite often and even if I am not an expert at it I do pvp sometimes. However I don¦t claim to be a ship specialist, able to spam uber numbers and formulas with alien signs everywhere, I just want to bring my 2 cents. on the current issue with this nice battlecruiser . Myrmidon battlecruiser role: Well after reading this thread, I saw quite a lot of people wanting to boost this baby to bring it along with the other tier 2 bc DPS; if, that is a good idea in theory, I would like to point out that Gallente already have a damage boat, the Brutix. Giving the Myrmidon a medium hybrid bonus would just make it subpar to the Brutix as such a bonus wouldn¦t be that useful, as the Myrmidon only has 5 turret slots and little powergrid to fit them. Brutix is supposed to be the gank baby of our arsenal, not Myrmidon . Even if you can fit it like a blasterboat, I believe it is better at range, acting like a support ship: fit dampeners/tracking disruptors, some NOS and small sized guns and you get a very valuable ship in fleets, able to mount a gang warfare module, while being able to get rid of pesty frigates and interceptors. Of course, it has a moderate DPS, but as said before, the point of this ship is NOT pure DPS for gankage. Personally, I find that the Myrmidon repair bonus is fine; with a plate, this ship can reach 13k armor hitpoints with a good tank, turning it into a nice, maybe too nice tanking platform. Even without a plate, the ship isn¦t that fast or agile, and trying to add a microwarp drive will just give you poor results, as your base signature radius stays almost as big as a BS to start with. Of course, it is a droneboat, so the damage bonus to drone is greatly welcomed, even if it could be modified a little. (see below).
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.31 02:45:00 - [434] reserved 3.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.31 03:32:00 - [435] No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs. Just give it 250m3 and get it over with. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.31 05:05:00 - [436] Edited by: Ath Amon on 31/10/2006 05:10:43 Originally by: Kalhystia Last words. That¦s it, I just brought my little opinion about this ship; I am not perfect, I am not a good PvPer but I still have tested the ship, so I still have little knowledge of what I am talking about. I stay open-minded enough to know that my post isn¦t flawless, and I welcome people to correct me, as long as it stays flame-proof. Thanks for the few chosen ones who were able to reach the end of that post without falling asleep .