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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.03 06:02:00 -
[511]
Edited by: Nyxus on 03/11/2006 06:02:47
Originally by: Ath Amon Keepiru's graph 67796
Wait.....isn't that Keepiru's graph of the Harbinger with 8 turrets? Ath are you saying that the Harbinger is fine as it is, or that it needs 8 turrets to be balanced?
I can't tell.
Also: the Hurricane has more grid left over when fitting comparable weapons. It will be able to fit a better tank becuase of this. It also has a lot more cap than a Harb when firing weapons. A LOT LOT LOT more if the Harb is using HP II. Hurricane WILL outtank the Harb. Period.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them.
Gee, wonder why..
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:37:00 -
[512]
Edited by: Goumindong on 03/11/2006 07:41:56
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Goumindong
Base powergrid for a Focued Medium Pulse Laser is 120 [132 tech 2]
Base Powergrid for a 220 Autocannon I is 100 [110 tech 2]
Difference between 7 guns at max skills is 126[138.6 tech 2]
Difference between Harbinger PG[1875] and Hurricane PG[1750] at max skills is 125. So the difference at max skills between 220's and FMPs is 1 PG in favor of the Hurricane at max skills[and loads of CPU] and 13.6 PG when using tech 2 guns at max skills.
The worse your skills, the better this comparison gets in favor of the Hurricane.
So yes, I am absolutly sure.
1 pg is not that much... also here you are comparing a fitting with 7 guns with dps with hurricane using 7 guns and 1 HAM
looking here you have a picture where the lasers have same dps at close range and better at longer using 7 guns + drones vs 7 guns + 1 ham + drones
Damage @ Range
again to me it seem quite balanced, we have also to consider that here the fitting difference is not 1 pg but over 100pg for the harbringer...
removing the 8th high slot and putting it in the low imo it will overpower the ship... not only it will still do equal or more damage with also a better range but it will give one more slot to put in another dmg or tank mod, making the difference between the 2 ships more marked.
as said looking at graph... even ones you posted it seem to me the damage is similar at close and better for har at range...
looking at fitting and base tank the harbringer should outtank the hurr...
so again as i see the harb beat the hurr at tanking (as amarr should do) and at range (again as amarr should generally do), hurr beat it for speed and both ships have similar best dps in similar conditions...
if the 8th harb slot will be moved down then the ship imo should get penalized in the drone compartement or the difference in dps + tankage + range of the 2 ships will be to high to make the hurr worthwile
1. I already accounted for the Harbingers extra Powergrid when comparing the Powergrid usage of weapons.
2. The Harbinger does not beat the Hurricane when tanking, this is because the Harbinger uses cap on its guns. A whole bunch of cap, while the hurricane does not. This is important to figure into your calculations. Especialy when 1000 armor really isnt all that much. It is 20% of the base values, but much less if each decides to stick on a plate. And what happens if you stick on a plate? Well, the capacitor becomes a much more important issue, becuse you have more rep cycles to accomidate.
3. The graphs show the Harbinger being better than the Hurricane when it has 8 guns and the powergrid to fit 8 heavy pulses.
At the moment it has the PG to do so, or fit 7 heavy pulses, but it looses a huge amount of tank to do so, its next step down, is still behind the hurricane in damage.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.03 08:30:00 -
[513]
Originally by: Goumindong
1. I already accounted for the Harbingers extra Powergrid when comparing the Powergrid usage of weapons.
nope you are calculating the pg on 7 weapons for both ships, but then you discuss the dps with the hurr using 8 weapons...
an option of the har is actually to leave 8th slot empty (is also the reason you are proposing to move the slot :P) in this situation it will gain around 100pg over a ham hurricane, and the dps is still balanced... i will prefer to fit a nos (same for the hur) but is still an option...
Originally by: Goumindong
2. The Harbinger does not beat the Hurricane when tanking, this is because the Harbinger uses cap on its guns. A whole bunch of cap, while the hurricane does not. This is important to figure into your calculations. Especialy when 1000 armor really isnt all that much. It is 20% of the base values, but much less if each decides to stick on a plate. And what happens if you stick on a plate? Well, the capacitor becomes a much more important issue, becuse you have more rep cycles to accomidate.
you have cap reduction that reduce cap usage, and also if you with a nos and the hur will fit an ham you will probably end up with a overall cap usage and, as you say, tanking
for plates i disagree, i see plates mostly as a buffer so is not that you need more cycles/more energy... the cap usage is the same is just that you are living more due to better hps. so basically you sacrifice some active tankage for passive one.
Originally by: Goumindong
3. The graphs show the Harbinger being better than the Hurricane when it has 8 guns and the powergrid to fit 8 heavy pulses.
At the moment it has the PG to do so, or fit 7 heavy pulses, but it looses a huge amount of tank to do so, its next step down, is still behind the hurricane in damage.
mmmmm it was a bit different than mine here why also i'm quite curious to see the graph with new t2 ammos... /crossfinger for sisi
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.03 08:46:00 -
[514]
Ath, i dont believe you actualy have any clue about what you are talking about.
1. The damage bonus from a missile launcher is negligable, because its is a single launcher and there is no bonus on the ship.
2. The graph you are citing as showing the harbinger as so much better shows the harbinger using 8 guns versus the Hurricanes 7 guns/launcher. There is no equivelency between an extra gun and a missile launcher.
3. Missile launchers and AC's do not use any cap at all, so no, between the guns and the missile launcher the hurricane will not be anywhere near the cap use of the Harbinger even with the cap use bonus for lasers. The cap use bonus for the Harbinger would have to be 18%/level in order to make even the cap use of the Hurricane and the Harbinger. Not even with a medium NOS [5 cap/second base] You would have to fit two NOS's in order to eat into the cap use of your guns at max skills, and then you arent doing nearly as much damage as the Hurricane anyway
4. Plates prolong death. That is the point of plates. However, the longer before you explode, the longer you have to cycle your repairer. This benefits the Hurricane because the Hurricane uses so much less cap than the Harbinger. If a Plate gets you 3 cycles worth of staying alive then the Harbinger is in absolute terms, worse at tanking than the Hurricane, as it will have less effective HP while still firing its guns. If the plate doesnt get you three cycles[about 40 seconds], then having it wasnt worth much anyway now was it[as you lasted, at most, about 1 minute 10 seconds]?
Either way the Hurricane tanks better.
5. When i discuss the powergrid usage of both ships, I am doing so because the Hurricane does as much damage as the Harbinger with 7 guns and no launcher, and with equal fittings has more powergrid. Everything else is bonus. I dont compare with 8 guns, because i dont expect a Hurricane to fit 8 weapons, nor do I expect for them to need to, nor do I expect such a fitting to make much of a difference.
After you fit your guns, the Harbinger has more PG left to fit what it wants. If you fit a NOS[175 PG]like you suggest and the Hurricane fits a HAM[100 PG or so] then the Hurricane adds another 75 relative PG to the numbers above.
And the Hurricane STILL uses less cap, heck, it uses less cap if you NOS it and use that cap to power your guns!
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:34:00 -
[515]
I must say that I've always found those graphs misleading when drones are involved. Essentially, the heavier the drone the less useful it is at range.
Now, the problem is that the graphs give the distinct appearance that Ogres are useful and does damage past 20km - while they theoretically do damage out there, they aren't useful at all. At that range they are extremely vulnerable and they make it so that the drone ship must sacrifice all the drones if it needs flee the combat. Essentially, it's the same as back in the days when missiles suffered greatly from long time-to-damage, with the important difference that drones are even slower. Well, the missile ships didn't lose their missile launchers if they fled, but...
If you wish to make "realistic" graphs, cut heavy drone damage at 20km, medium drones at 30km and light drones at 40km. Sentry drones really are useless in a PvP combat situation, since they don't orbit your ship (they really should orbit the host ship) but remains stationary where launched. This is in situations where you aren't very certain to win, of course, but in situations where you are 100% certain to win graphs really do not tell anything at all - except maybe how many seconds the target has to get to gate/station. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what? |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:43:00 -
[516]
Originally by: Ithildin I must say that I've always found those graphs misleading when drones are involved. Essentially, the heavier the drone the less useful it is at range.
I agree, and that's why I tend to remove drones from long-range weapon dps graphs.
However, when comparing the myrmidon to other BCs fitted for short range, its a necessity, for obvious reasons. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:46:00 -
[517]
1) then compare the graph with both ships using 7 guns (as i made at the beginning)
you have the "base dps" of the 2 ships with similar fitting requirements (1pg difference at highest skill) and the option for hurricane to fit an HAM or a NOS while the har have to fit a nos or leave it empty.
(about that i think there should be a bit more utility option for high slots but that's another story)
this way as said you get the basic picture of both ships with the versatility difference
2) my fault tought it was a normal graph + damage mods and is why it was a bit different than my basic graph
3) ok it doesn't use cap, but also with lasers you have a range bonus, no ammo usage and around 20-30% more base dps... these are the pros and cons of this weapon type and i think is generally quite balanced compared to proj. (hybrid and missiles imo are another history)
we can also discuss for midrange, but this is mostly a BS issue as the range for mids is too low to be really considered midrange.
for medium and quite a slow ship class as said in the other post imo range is a good bonus as it doesn't permit to get outranged with close range weapons, not to say that with such longer range you can also score some hits before the opponent.
4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary
also i prefer to keep the distinction between cap and tank, tank is the ability to absorb or sustain damage, yes it need cap to work but is the same for everything ecm, ab, scram and so on.
and the tank between the 2 ships is veeery similar with the main difference, as said, of +20% base armor for the harb
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Swamp Ziro
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:02:00 -
[518]
Personally, I wouldn't mind buffing the harbringer a bit, if only just to please the Amarrians. What they ask seems reasonable, unlike myrmidon buffs for example (:D), so why not.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:04:00 -
[519]
Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 11:04:58
Originally by: Ath Amon with lasers you have a range bonus
Meaningless because the Hurricane dctates range. The Harbinger is a *very good* BC, the proble is that its outclassed by the Hurricane in everything, and that's what we're discussing.
Originally by: Ath Amon around 20-30% more base dps
Meaningless because the Harbinger only out-damages the Hurricane when the Harbi is using top-tier weapons and the Hurricane uses middle-tier.
Originally by: Ath Amon 4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary
Try more like 10 cap/second with FMP II, much worse with any other gun - I think we can all agree quad light beams are a non-issue here
And the Hurricane has like 50% more cargo bay.
Base armor is pointless if you don't have the cap to run your guns & reppers, with the fight lenghts in kali. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Sniser
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:04:00 -
[520]
Edited by: Sniser on 03/11/2006 12:16:07 stuff
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:07:00 -
[521]
Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 11:04:58
Originally by: Ath Amon with lasers you have a range bonus
Meaningless because the Hurricane dctates range. The Harbinger is a *very good* BC, the proble is that its outclassed by the Hurricane in everything, and that's what we're discussing.
is not meaningless, you will not fight only hurricanes, hurricane is just one of the many ships and not one of the best for the harbringer, hurricane can't dictate range too against most cruisers and in that situation a lower weapon range can be a problem.
you say that the hurricane outperform the harbringer for everything, in my opinion is not the case
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Ath Amon around 20-30% more base dps
Meaningless because the Harbinger only out-damages the Hurricane when the Harbi is using top-tier weapons and the Hurricane uses middle-tier.
is not meaningless as is the way weapons where developed and balanced... different weapons with different bonuses and different stats...
if you think that lasers are underpowered then it's another discussion and a "primary" problem, while the comparsion between these ships is less relevant
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Ath Amon 4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary
Try more like 10 cap/second with FMP II, much worse with any other gun - I think we can all agree quad light beams are a non-issue here
And the Hurricane has like 50% more cargo bay.
Base armor is pointless if you don't have the cap to run your guns & reppers, with the fight lenghts in kali.
as said cap is particular area of a ship, you can say that amarr are weak on cap, but when you say that amarr are weak on tankage because of cap is like to say that amarr are weak on ecm, offence and so on because of cap.
it can seem a marginal distinction but is an important one as it focus an area where you have a problem. this makes easier to analyze the problem itself and to better compare balance and eventual solutions whitout unbalance other areas.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:21:00 -
[522]
Originally by: Sniser then why i having too different numbers?
True Dmg
hurri out dps everyone ;)
Looks I forgot them then
Originally by: Ath Amon is not meaningless, you will not fight only hurricanes, hurricane is just one of the many ships and not one of the best for the harbringer, hurricane can't dictate range too against most cruisers and in that situation a lower weapon range can be a problem.
you say that the hurricane outperform the harbringer for everything, in my opinion is not the case
Yes, they wont only fighjt hurricanes, that's all fine and dandy BUT. Tell me *one* reason to fly the Harbinger over the Hurricane. You say you disagree, so show me why.
There isn't one.
I'm not asking to make the Harbinger UBER. I just want it to be better at one thing that's actually valuable in the real world - more damage outside web ange with short-range guns it meaningless.
Keep in mind, I'm horizontally specced, I can fly all BCs basically equally well... I would like one reason to actually use my laser spec, because right now there wont be, apart from NPCing
Originally by: Ath Amon is not meaningless as is the way weapons where developed and balanced... different weapons with different bonuses and different stats...
if you think that lasers are underpowered then it's another discussion and a "primary" problem, while the comparsion between these ships is less relevant
Its meanignless because we're not talking about the weapons, we're talking about the ship.
Originally by: Ath Amon as said cap is particular area of a ship, you can say that amarr are weak on cap, but when you say that amarr are weak on tankage because of cap is like to say that amarr are weak on ecm, offence and so on because of cap.
it can seem a marginal distinction but is an important one as it focus an area where you have a problem. this makes easier to analyze the problem itself and to better compare balance and eventual solutions whitout unbalance other areas.
I dont agree with you. An armor tank is 1/3 resist, 1/3 hp and 1/3 THE FRAGGIN CAP TO RUN IT *has heart attack*
*comes back from dead*
>.>
<.<
So yeah. xtra Armor on Harbinger = fragging useless, thanks to oh gee amarr are supposed to havbe better cap but they dont. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 14:30:00 -
[523]
Originally by: Swamp Ziro Personally, I wouldn't mind buffing the harbringer a bit, if only just to please the Amarrians. What they ask seems reasonable, unlike myrmidon buffs for example (:D), so why not.
Im not sure why myrmidon buffs isnt reasonable. I assume its because of the Brutix already having so high damage?
Ganking battlecruisers
Just some graph I made. Sorry for not using t2 missiles for the Drake, it didnt work for some reason. But with Rage missiles, the dps is 577. Not sure about Fury.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 14:42:00 -
[524]
Hmm. T2 missiles work for me, at least in DPS @ range graphs.
Just not in Cumulative Damage / Time graphs. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 16:11:00 -
[525]
Originally by: keepiru Hmm. T2 missiles work for me, at least in DPS @ range graphs.
Just not in Cumulative Damage / Time graphs.
Ill check it out.. :)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:04:00 -
[526]
Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf? ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Imode
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:19:00 -
[527]
Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf?
f'in, sweet!
bigger tank than a brutix now! ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:22:00 -
[528]
Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf?
Any changes to the Harbinger?
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:30:00 -
[529]
Originally by: Goumindong Any changes to the Harbinger?
Not that I can see. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:33:00 -
[530]
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Goumindong Any changes to the Harbinger?
Not that I can see.
:(
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Varshyll
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:59:00 -
[531]
Originally by: keepiru Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf?
http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/0610/bc3.png
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:01:00 -
[532]
So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Nonoffensive
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:53:00 -
[533]
Originally by: keepiru So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay
Is it just me, or is it the only T2 BC with only 17 fitting slots now?
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Kalhystia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:07:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Nonoffensive
Originally by: keepiru So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay
Is it just me, or is it the only T2 BC with only 17 fitting slots now?
It is a droneship, so it is normal that it gets less slots.
Now, as Keepiru said, give me a proper dronebay and I will be perfectly happy |
Nonoffensive
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:13:00 -
[535]
Originally by: Kalhystia
Originally by: Nonoffensive
Originally by: keepiru So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay
Is it just me, or is it the only T2 BC with only 17 fitting slots now?
It is a droneship, so it is normal that it gets less slots.
Now, as Keepiru said, give me a proper dronebay and I will be perfectly happy
Strange that they didn't increase the drone bay while they were fiddling with the slots, if that was their intent.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:28:00 -
[536]
Still feels a little unfinished tbh, but its a step in the right direction, the "8 highs on everything" thing was getting a little dull. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Crewman Jenkins
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:49:00 -
[537]
Are the new BCs supposed to use warfare link modules at all?
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:59:00 -
[538]
Yup. Bonus is just not in description yet. ----------------
Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Caldorous
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.03 23:57:00 -
[539]
Originally by: Nonoffensive
Originally by: Kalhystia
Originally by: Nonoffensive
Originally by: keepiru So it gained 75MW? Well, I guess that's allright. Now it just needs a whackalod more drone bay
Is it just me, or is it the only T2 BC with only 17 fitting slots now?
It is a droneship, so it is normal that it gets less slots.
Now, as Keepiru said, give me a proper dronebay and I will be perfectly happy
Strange that they didn't increase the drone bay while they were fiddling with the slots, if that was their intent.
i don't know why but i fear a nerfage of the myrmidon just the release day... -----------------------------
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Kalhystia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.04 00:18:00 -
[540]
nerf? nerf what? Is there something THAT good to nerf on that ship?
layout is ok, dronebay is small, bonus are ok but not overpowered, damage output isn't that great...
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