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Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:00:00 - [151] Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:04:00 - [152] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: murder one Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Tiuwaz use 2xdampeners on myrmidon watch any ship larger than a frigate take a long time to target your drones, if he tries to kill one get it back to dronebay, while he wastes his time retargeting drones you slowly kill him You do realise that this will not prevent him from killing your MYRMIDON off? That you've essentially wasted two mid slots? Further more, once anyone gets a web on one of your heavy drones, you're NOT recalling it lol. It's as good as dead. Won't be any need for retargeting. You are going to be pounding me.. and I in return are going to be 'playing' with webbing your drones... gee, people can teach you new 'tactics' every day, don't they.. uuu look at these pretty shiny things that fly around, let me slow it down to look at it better... very productive for the 15-30 seconds you have in 1v1 PvP PvP w/ Kali is measured in minutes, not seconds. With the Hurricane I can web/kill all 4 heavies before I'm into half armor, and this is assuming I get into range of the Myrmidon's guns, which if you're smart, you won't for the first part of the fight. AFTER you've killed it's drones, THEN you move in and kill it. It's such a simple concept, even a monkey could do it. Lol, if a Myrmidon pilot lets you escape his guns, then he isn't doing something right. Even if that's the case why wouldn't he simply quit a losing battle, since apparently he and apparently you are out of range? I guess there's more than 1 way to do a monkey business. You have 1 battle and that should really convince everyone of a ships abilities? Hardly so m8, there are much more creative people in this game than what you're making the eve players out to be... The Hurricane is faster than the Myrmidon. With a 20km scram I can dicate range quite easily. With two webs, even more so. I haven't just fought one fight. I've fought numerous fights with multiple setups against a wide variety of players. You keep making the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing and don't know what I'm talking about. You couldn't be more wrong. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:06:00 - [153] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Black Scorpio Invalidating other's people comments makes you happy is it? English not being their first language is a basis to flame? lol, English is my first language! If missed words mean so much to you you should look up that English teacher you had in 5th grade and marry her (maybe you already have). The point of the matter, is that CCP hasn't done this for a reason. Would you like to say they're really so incompetent and so quick to release a ship that does the same DPS as your Vexor? This is not the case m8, as you're trying everyone on this forum trying to believe! English enough for you? Sigh. First off, I said I wasn't going to comment on language since I assumed you're not a native. Since you are: work on your writing :) (I'm not a native, which makes it slightly more amusing :) Then: the whole point of this forum is to figure out bugs in Kali, to balance ships, etc. No, I don't think CCP is above making balance mistakes, in fact history proves that they make them all the time. It's no wonder, you have a few individual people doing ship stats and thousands of volunteers (that'd be us ) arguing endlessly about them and spending all too many hours doing tests and DPS calcs. We are the (preliminary) test department. Believe me or not, I really do want a balance in the new ship types, I don't want an overpowered Gallente ship -- because it would just get the nerfbat next. I want a solid ship that's fun to fly and which is on the same power level as the other BCs. Is that too much to ask? Right now, it looks like the other 3 BCs all rock, and the Myrmidon is a bit lacking. Well brother, I hope you're sincere in your desires to achieve balance, usually it seems that people do this MOSTLY for their selfish reasons. And as I mention, it is good to have a forum on this I am just so Sick and Tired of ONLY Gallente pilots flooding them and blasting left and right that see their ships are underpowered. I didn't see nearly as many of the other races pilots out here, and I am far from assuming their ships are perfect. I'd say let the ships be. If there is this obvious gap in the Myrmidon's stats, I'm sure it will not go unnoticed. Preliminary 1-10 test fights do not and cannot decide it. It is simply not realistic. The fact that it might be so that Gallente pilots participate more in testing than other races, does not give them the right to turn the tables in their favor. Hope you are actually trying to see what I am sayig and not just pounding on the same spot!
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:07:00 - [154] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. Because I said so...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:09:00 - [155] Originally by: murder one The Hurricane is faster than the Myrmidon. With a 20km scram I can dicate range quite easily. With two webs, even more so. I haven't just fought one fight. I've fought numerous fights with multiple setups against a wide variety of players. You keep making the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing and don't know what I'm talking about. You couldn't be more wrong. No I don't assume that. But you assume that everyone in game will make the choices you do or fight at the full knowledge of who's facing who. This simply is not the case! Testing is one thing, reality always proved it is somehow a bit different now, isn't it!
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:09:00 - [156] Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? Would be overpowered since 10 drones under the current system would be 20 drones under the old system... wouldn't help with lag either. Personally my initial reaction would be to give it a 200m3 drone bay in return for losing 1 a high slot or trading 2 highs for 1 low and probably lowering the grid accordingly. It would have to be tested though.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:11:00 - [157] Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:15:14 Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Black Scorpio So how about that Gallente colleagues? would a control of 10 drones at lvl5 finally shut you up? Would be overpowered since 10 drones under the current system would be 20 drones under the old system... wouldn't help with lag either. Personally my initial reaction would be to give it a 200m3 drone bay in return for losing 1 a high slot or trading 2 highs for 1 low and probably lowering the grid accordingly. It would have to be tested though. wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. however, it will make it harder to eliminate the drone component of the ship (thus a big lump of it's firepower) because it is more spreaded out thru more drones. as for the lag, well, it is 10 drones. I cannot compete with such thing. Never said it didn't had any drawback ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:13:00 - [158] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. This is amazing, another UBER boat. Now lets add bonuses for each!
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:17:00 - [159] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: murder one Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones With the 1200 grid it already has 5x ions a mwd and med rep w/ injector are almost impossible to fit as it is. With 1000 grid trying to fit 6 guns will be impossible. however it can field 10 med/scout drones. think of it like this: tank in lows injector/Ewar/web/whatev stuff in meds low-grade guns in high slots for example 6x T2 D150mm's MWD injector web scram 2x damps or TD's tank in lows. uses all the bonuses of the ship and still has space for Ewar. This is amazing, another UBER boat. Now lets add bonuses for each! if it is still overpowered in your eyes, remove the hybrid dmg bonus then ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:21:00 - [160] Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously...

Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:25:00 - [161] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously... yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:28:00 - [162] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak wrong. if you think about it a bit the drone dmg bonus is intended to double each drone effectiveness, meaning that 5 drones + ship dmg bonus = 10 drones in the old system since the ship doesn't have a drone dmg bonus, it is the same as having a drone damage bonus. 5 drones + 10% dmg/lvl = 7.5 drones actually.. however there is also drone interfacing which gives 20% dmg/lvl, so: 10 drones * 100% dmg from DI5 = 20 drones equivelant technically would be 24 equivelant due to 25% drone dmb from combat drone op which wasn't around previously... yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. oh noess.., pliiizzz add more!!! more drones, more bonuses, more of everything, come on, you can't possibly have enough of them, 6/6/6, what's that a joke? 666? the number of the beast? i say, make it 7/7/7 to make it a lucky number :D
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:28:00 - [163] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 22:28:14 Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 22:02:19 ok I came up with this. so, it looks like that the drone control bonus seems to be accepted. now let's make some stats change in the myrmidon: 6/6/6 with 6 turrets 1000 grid 410 cpu 150m3 drone bay (enough for 10 meds + 10 lights) +1 scout/med drone control per level +5% hybrid dmg bonus notice that I toned down the grid so that a full hi-tier gun + tank becomes harder to fit. edit: because I wanted to mean a control bonus for med and scout drones Screw armor tanking, that'd be the best shield tanking ship in the game. EDIT: Ok thats hyperbole, but seriously I'd shield tank that thing. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:30:00 - [164] Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:33:00 - [165] /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... Its great being gallente , aint it? _________________________________________________
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [166] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3. Hey, how about a variety, some med some light drones,what's so bad about that? Need more DPS.. Christmas is coming! Darn I miss the Snowball launcher !!!
Temo Jick	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [167] Originally by: Hllaxiu Edited by: Hllaxiu on 26/10/2006 14:31:35 [ Because all noncapital Gallente combat craft have a Small/Medium/Large Hybrid Bonus? False. The Imicus isnt a very good combat ship admitedly but its three light drones and bonus to drone range mean it can do nasty things to other frigates if they are set up for Long range. It has no hybred damage bonus.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:34:00 - [168] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak yes, however I am not adding any kind of dmg bonus to the drones. only changing it. Except the +1 drone per level is much more effective than the 10% dmg bonus... it doesn't really solve the problem of not having spare drones either unless you plan to field only light drones since 10 mediums takes 100m3. that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 - [169] Originally by: Hllaxiu Screw armor tanking, that'd be the best shield tanking ship in the game. EDIT: Ok thats hyperbole, but seriously I'd shield tank that thing. So would I. I'd shield tank the current one if there were any point to putting damage mods in lows ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 - [170] Originally by: madaluap /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... Lots, as it help the BBQ produce steaks :) And I like them! :)

Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:39:00 - [171] Originally by: Grimpak that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much Even with the extra drones I don't think it would help that much since medium drones still go down pretty quick.. would also probably run into problems with ewar drones. I personally wouldn't want to fight a ship with 10 ECM drones or 6 ECM drones and 4 sensor damp drones. A flat change to the drone bay would be the simplest fix assuming it keeps it inline with the other BC... if that can't be done I'd probably say drop the rep bonus for a 5% hybrid dmg bonus.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:43:00 - [172] Originally by: madaluap /emote wonders how much thermal damage a Black Scorpio drone does... That much hot air? Will need some serious tanking, methinks...
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:43:00 - [173] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Grimpak that's the point, since 9 drones are always more efective than 4 drones + bonus (which would be roughly equivalent to 8 drones). firepower is more spreaded out, making it harder to the enemy to overcome such firepower. I said 150m3 for the sake of balancing aswell tbh. I am trying to suggest a weird bonus without overpower the damn thing that much Even with the extra drones I don't think it would help that much since medium drones still go down pretty quick.. would also probably run into problems with ewar drones. I personally wouldn't want to fight a ship with 10 ECM drones or 6 ECM drones and 4 sensor damp drones. A flat change to the drone bay would be the simplest fix assuming it keeps it inline with the other BC... if that can't be done I'd probably say drop the rep bonus for a 5% hybrid dmg bonus. I guess you have a point there. however a +1 drone control bonus would made the ship much more unique. hmm... maybe making the bonus applying to solely scout/medium combat drones? ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Kaathar Rielspar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:53:00 - [174] Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 26/10/2006 23:01:08 Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 26/10/2006 22:53:37 hmmm, interesting discussions on the new ships, especially the myrmidon. i like the most recent suggestions and if it is deemed that a change to the ship bonuses is in order then i'd go with the rep bonus and +1 scout/medium controlled per level would mean that it can field more drone dps than the vexor (by 2.5 drones at an extra 40mil+ cost, seems fairly balanced) and pilots have the option of 2 waves of 10 lights or a single cloud of mediums. this bonus would also make the ship unique if we discount the guardian vexor (theres the precedent right there) which can only be a good thing. my $0.02 ____________________ Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Originally by: Eximius Josari If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs? Overpriced Nos victims.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:56:00 - [175] Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar this bonus would also make the ship unique if we discount the guardian vexor (theres the precadent right there) which can only be a good thing. Its precedent for overlooking bonuses on ships which never get used due to their rarity... not really precedent for adding a new +1 drone control/lvl, although I suppose you could look to carriers for precedent on that.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:57:00 - [176] Originally by: Hllaxiu In short: 10 drones isn't going to happen so lets not waste our time on suggesting it. one can only try and ask to see if it's possible or not. oh and btw, I realy thing it is possible, since there is a skill that applies only to medium/scout drones. maybe tying up the control bonus to that parameter. Originally by: Azerrad InExile Basically would be garunteed death to smaller ships. you can do that already with the drake. 7 T2 assault launchers + precision lights = omfgpwned frigs and the like anyways at least it IS a suggestion, and I am/was being serious about it. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:13:00 - [177] Originally by: Grimpak you can do that already with the drake. 7 T2 assault launchers + precision lights = omfgpwned frigs and the like anyways at least it IS a suggestion, and I am/was being serious about it. I have no doubt that you were being serious, I just personally think it would have to many issues (btw I am completing drone interfacing 5 in about 10 days so I have nothing against drones). Regarding the drake I don't think 7x precision lights would do anywhere near the damage of 10x hammerheads, but 7x precision lights is going to make for an insane fleet support setup. I'm probably the most worried about the drake being unbalanced in all of this, but the hurricane isn't far behind. Whatever the ammar one is called seems ok and the gallente one seems a bit weak in comparision to the caldari and minmatar, but about on par with the amarr one. However, I'm not happy about any of them having tanking bonuses... I'd like to see the drake's bonus changed to 5% rof and 10% velocity and the gallente one changed to 10% drone and 5% hybrid.
albert camus Quam Singulari	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:13:00 - [178] hmm... all this therorectical crap, ive been playing with all the tier 2 bc's and there pretty well ballanced. All this raw dps stuff is just silly, in actual combat there all nice ships :)
Kalhystia Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:15:00 - [179] Edited by: Kalhystia on 26/10/2006 23:15:36 I agree that Myrmidon needs bigger dronebay: 100m3 for a drone BC is just plain joke. The harbinger is pure sex, but could you put the lower gun in the proper place please? It just ruins the whole beauty of the ship
Quilan Ziller	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:31:00 - [180] To all Caldari who are whining about the Myrmidon. You are... incorrect. It is waay underpowered as it is, and only an increase in drone bay space will make it almost balanced against other BCs, especially the missile boats like Ferox. How so? With maximum gunnery and drone skills, Modal Neutrons/AM, 3 damage mods, and Ogre IIs damage against an unhardened Ferox is 360 DPS for 4 heavy drones, 430 for 5 heavy drones. Check it with QuickFit if you don't believe me. Now, the said Ferox has missiles (which ALWAYS hit), and it can fit a webber. The drones will go poof in the first few seconds of the fight. Those are heavy drones, very easy to kill, and very expensive. After that, the Myrmidon is toast. I don't even want to mention the fact that the DPS figures, even if we don't talk about drones getting killed, are nothing spectacular for a triple-MFS suicide fit. And that a Brutix does more damage than that. This ship needs more drone bay space, period. Otherwise, it is only good for level 3 mission running. And stop mentioning the medium drones... Vexor can do that perfectly already. And if a ship 10 times as expensive as a Vexor does the same damage, something is terribly wrong. After all, Drake does not do the same damage as a Moa, and Brutix does more damage than a Thorax. For the price, Myr should be a mini-Domi, not an overpriced Vexor. Otherwise, it will only be flown by noobs, and will never see much PvP (except as being a pirate magnet). And even 5 heavy drones is NOT overpowered against a Caldari ship with missiles.



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